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7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
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  #1  
Old 02-14-2014, 03:51 PM
mws mws is offline
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Put an M5 diff in my 760Li, could use some ideas...

The good news: I managed to fit a 3.62 E60 M5 diff into my 760Li. Got it from troyjeup. He mentioned doing it to his 745 on this forum years ago, but never followed up. I thought about using an Alpina diff, which is also 3.62, but it's just an open diff. I wanted LSD. Well, now I have it.

DO NOT DO THIS UPGRADE until I figure out what is going on. Right now, it's only an upgrade to LSD. It should be quicker, but it's not...yet.

It's a 3.62, compared to my 3.15 in the V12 car. But.... the TCU is a bit confused and won't shift quickly at redline. It revs to 6500 and hangs there for like, half a second and then shifts. Even Manual mode, Sport mode, you name it. Before mods, my car benchmarked using a Gtech Pro SS like this:

0-60 5.5 seconds
1/4 mile 13.5 seconds at 106 mph.

Now, because of the slower shifting, it's 2/10s slower 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. It should be a good bit quicker. Wheel spin is not the issue, I managed to get wheel spin even more under control than when I first benchmarked the car. In any case, I cannot beat my original times.

I am working with oetuning.com and whatever I can drum up to try to figure out a solution. Jeremy there has been very helpful and I would not hesitate to pay him to work on the car, if it comes to that.

I did a transmission adaptive learn reset in INPA--a few times. Even turned the car off and left it for an hour (Jeremy suggested at least 5 minutes) to ensure the car went to sleep and fully initialized the trans learning mode. Once it wakes up and goes through 10 miles or so, of really bumpy shifts, it re-learns and smooths out pretty well. But the car is measurably slower.

here's the logic I am pursuing to try to solve this: Use what BMW already has that works in a 7-series with an auto tranny, something that knows about the 3.62 differential. An Alpina B7 does.... so it's TCU and other trans-related parts must know what to do with the 3.62 M5 diff.

Here's what I am thinking: Hardware--- the TCU is probably different on the B7 (although I cannot confirm this using realoem). Where in realoem is the TCU?

Where can I get an Alpina B7 TCU profile (I am asking cn555ic the coderguy on the B3 forum). Can I just overlay that into my own TCU?

Here's what I CAN confirm with realoem, regarding the trans-related stuff and a B7, vs a E66 760Li

Trans cases are same family, 760 is: GA6HP26Z B7 is GA6HP26Z - UA.

But, they are different part numbers (But could be because they come
with a different Mechatronics internal part)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref....0935&showus=on

Where can I get the real B7 trans gear ratios, so I can compare?

Mechatronics pack is different part number (but might be
compatible with either transmission)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...83&hg=24&fg=15

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...13&hg=24&fg=15

cross reference for Mechatronics is only for B7

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part=24347552341

torque converters are the same

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref....7764&showus=on

Last edited by mws; 02-14-2014 at 03:55 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:13 PM
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csmeance csmeance is offline
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a quick google for E65 B7 Gear Ratio got me these numbers:


gear ratios 4.17:1, 2.34:1, 1.52:1, 1.14:1, 0.87:1, 0.69:1
from http://www.supercars.net/cars/3157.html , bottom right side of details.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:54 AM
mws mws is offline
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Yeah, thanks. I have actually seen that. I'm just not sure where they got their info, or how reliable it is. The actual specs came from "Richard Owen", who, if you click the link, it is a 404 file not found. I'd love to see this from a more reliable site, but I doubt BMW had a trans made with different ratios.
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  #4  
Old 02-15-2014, 06:47 PM
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csmeance csmeance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
Yeah, thanks. I have actually seen that. I'm just not sure where they got their info, or how reliable it is. The actual specs came from "Richard Owen", who, if you click the link, it is a 404 file not found. I'd love to see this from a more reliable site, but I doubt BMW had a trans made with different ratios.
any chance it would be in an Alpina B7 manual that owners get in the techincal info section?
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  #5  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:05 PM
mws mws is offline
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Good point, I am asking them in a separate and specific thread. I would not expect them to read this thread.
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:14 PM
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SuperSnoop SuperSnoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
Good point, I am asking them in a separate and specific thread. I would not expect them to read this thread.

The B7 uses the same transmission as the 760; a GA6HP26Z.


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  #7  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:23 PM
mws mws is offline
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same family, yes, but re-read this part, they are not the same part number.

>>
Trans cases are same family, 760 is: GA6HP26Z B7 is GA6HP26Z - UA.

But, they are different part numbers (But could be because they come
with a different Mechatronics internal part)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref....0935&showus=on
>>>

you're probably right about the gear ratios Super Snoop. But, different part numbers for the trans. I imagine they are the same ratios as well. But I'd like to know for sure.

as I also stated, the mechatronic is a different part number as well. Could be different valving and pressure for shifts.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:05 PM
mws mws is offline
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Finally got the used GTech Pro SS I bought to work with the PASS software. The graphing is very interesting. Also, the original 0-60 times the GTech told me for before and after are much better. It's a bit weird. You can see different values depending upon where you look on that thing.

I'll take what's in the graph.
0-60 of 5.073 with stock diff and 5.180 with M5 diff. But the M5 diff has a better 60' time.

Here's the main window of a 1/4 mile run, with the 760Li 3.15 diff (black line) and the M5 diff (red line). It shows that the M5 diff is faster at first, but the delay in shifting and the slow shifts overall, slow it's run down. What you SHOULD see is the red line pulling to the left on the graph, more and more, but the opposite occurs, since the ECU and/or TCU is freaking out.






Here's the first shift from first to second. You can clearly see the M5 diff is pulling ahead, and then, falls way back during the slower shift. Look at how the red line is actually ahead, then starts to slow and lag well before the shift. You can feel this.






The next shift from second to third. Since the M5 diff shifts at about 63mph the car is slowing down around 60 mph and thinking about the upcoming shift and then executing it slowly, making things worse for the 0-60 time.







Next shift from Third to fourth. According to my spreadsheets, the 760Li diff will not even shift until after 106 mph, so it does not get slowed down at all in a 1/4 mile run of 106 mph, but the laggy, slow shift of the car with the M5 diff at 97 mph, kills the run.

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  #9  
Old 02-17-2014, 01:54 PM
mws mws is offline
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when I knew something was up with the ECU was: the first time I
drove it. I did not reset anything. I just went for a drive. The car
bumped pretty hard into each gear. The adaptive learn that the tranny
does was having to re-learn the new diff. I even got on the highway in
Sport mode and drove it up to 70mph and then got off the gas. The
trans BANGED into another gear and fricking chirped the tires!! in
like 4th gear. After a day it got way more smooth. No more banging and
chirping, but I could tell the trans was shifting slower, and I
measured it with the GTech and compared it to my stock runs.

So, I got out INPA and re-set the Auto tranny adaptive learn and it
did all that same crap all over again, and chirped on the highway, and
everything. I tried to measure it during the learn cycle and fricking
got "Transmission Fail Safe mode" on my dash and was driving around in
Second constantly, until I turned the car off and back on. Drove it
awhile, again, it got smoother, then slower shifting. So I reset it
AGAIN, same thing.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2014, 01:39 PM
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csmeance csmeance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
when I knew something was up with the ECU was: the first time I
drove it. I did not reset anything. I just went for a drive. The car
bumped pretty hard into each gear. The adaptive learn that the tranny
does was having to re-learn the new diff. I even got on the highway in
Sport mode and drove it up to 70mph and then got off the gas. The
trans BANGED into another gear and fricking chirped the tires!! in
like 4th gear. After a day it got way more smooth. No more banging and
chirping, but I could tell the trans was shifting slower, and I
measured it with the GTech and compared it to my stock runs.

So, I got out INPA and re-set the Auto tranny adaptive learn and it
did all that same crap all over again, and chirped on the highway, and
everything. I tried to measure it during the learn cycle and fricking
got "Transmission Fail Safe mode" on my dash and was driving around in
Second constantly, until I turned the car off and back on. Drove it
awhile, again, it got smoother, then slower shifting. So I reset it
AGAIN, same thing.
I'm thinking that there is some coding in some module that measures the output speed IE WHEEL SPEED and the engine speed during shifts and it's configured for the factory diff (Probably with ABS and VSC/DTC) and not for the M5 diff. You probably have to alter those coding parameters.
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2007 Acura MDX - Nimbus Grey/Taupe
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2014, 02:19 PM
mws mws is offline
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Thinking the same exact thing. buuuuttt.. Jeremy at oetuning warned me he has seen situations on German OBD2 auto tranny cars where the physical valving in the trans is not the same as well. That is why I am concerned about the mechatronic part number for an Alpina being a different part number than a 760, and the fact that Alpina part number is shared with no other car.

But... if it's only software, I agree with your assessment. I am working with someone offline to try to get the TCU bin for an Alpina. It's just a 7, with an AT, and a 3.62 diff, so it's as close as I can get to having compatibility. If anyone knows where I can get this, it sure would help. Might be in the Progman data files. I just am not sure how to read the header to see "Alpina" in them. I only see "E65", things like that.

I did try this with DSC off and got such immense wheelspin I turned DSC back on. I might just try a more leisurely launch with DSC off and see if I can get different results at the shift-points.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:57 PM
dvanlare dvanlare is online now
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Have you tried putting it in manual shift so you can control the shift points and see if it responds as you would expect? Maybe ctsc can give you details on the mechatronics differences for Alpina as they sell all of those parts.
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2014, 07:21 AM
mws mws is offline
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yeah, i tried manual mode. i mentioned it in the first few sentences. i know, theres a lot of info. i find manual mode is a joke. more like a mild suggestion to the transmission. it still does what it wants half the time. the shifts were very laggy.

i dont know what CTSC is. but thanks for the suggestion, ill try to look them up and check with them.

is this what you are talking about?

http://www.thectsc.com/

Last edited by mws; 02-19-2014 at 07:22 AM.
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2014, 09:16 AM
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SuperSnoop SuperSnoop is offline
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The only differences in the transmission would be to handle the additional power in the B7. Have you figured out where to code the rear end gear ratio?


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  #15  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:27 AM
mws mws is offline
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>Have you figured out where to code the rear end gear ratio?

nope, not yet. I have the progman data files, and I've looked at a bunch of them (never used them and no expert at progman), but can't figure out where in the header it might say "Alpina B7". I am trying to get with someone to help me figure this out, later this week.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:57 AM
mws mws is offline
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just as a point of reference.

diffsonline has nothing for me, even regarding Alpina info.
Dinan, (I live down the highway from them) nothing on the E65 Alpinas. Only the most recent ones.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:03 AM
mws mws is offline
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BTW: Jeff at Dinan was not surprised about this issue. Said they had to do a lot of programming and tuning to get the E46 M3 SMG to take a 4.10 diff.
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2014, 07:55 AM
mws mws is offline
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Update to this question:
Where can I get an Alpina B7 TCU profile (I am asking cn555ic the coderguy on the B3 forum). Can I just overlay that into my own TCU?

Anthony Faison found the profile in all the Progman data. He corrected me as well. TCU (the transmission controller) is called EGS on our cars.

He tried it on his 7 and it temporarily bricked his car until he flashed it back. He thinks anyone previous to 2006 would need a later EGS module. Probably the Alpina one.

I have CTSC looking into the EGS compatibility thing. Pinged them after several days and they are still looking into it.

Last edited by mws; 02-28-2014 at 07:58 AM.
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