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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-16-2014, 12:18 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Considering coming to the 'Dark Side,' 528i

No, I don't own a BMW yet. Several family members do, and while I have appreciated them for what theya re, I have been very loyal to the Volvo badge. However, after 20 years of UNBELIEVABLY good service from my 245, I might have to let go. Volvo today is not Volvo 20 years ago.

And....I used a friend's X5 a few times to carry her to the airport and a few other longer distance rides, and was like...Holy cow. Ok. This isn't dad's 635 which seats beat you to death even if the car runs on rails. BMW can build a car with a more ergonomical interior and make an SUV drive like a sticky car.

Hmmmmm.....


I am going to state up front that I am a RWD kinda gal. My dad raced cars and I like to steer with both ends. I don't abuse my cars, but I want the control I want when I need it. BMW? Check.

My last experiences with new vehicles have left me totally disgusted with battles voer clear warranty issues, so I am looking to get something used. My big trucks I usually buy between 4-6 years and 60-70k, and have found I have gotten the best bang for buck and service. Provided they have been taken care of, I have run them down the road without much trouble for about 15 years.

So, I am nosing at the 5 series, preferably naturally aspirated like the 528i. I think it's a nice looking car, and if it's 08 and up, it has the current interior that I like.

I have read the wonderful document you all have been putting together here, and I admit to being a bit...concerned? I don't think my father or brother have had as much trouble with their BMWs over the years, and they certainly haven't been any more costly to care for than the Hondas and Toyotas family members have owned. They've been good cars with a much better driving experience. And my 245 wagon should be renamed from Fat Emma to Indestucta, because that car doesn't break. If it hand;t been totaled, and I wasn't driving on a salvage title, I wouldn't be here. I take care of it and it has NEVER in 20 years, not moved under it's own power. There have been a few close calls, but other than regular maintenance, like struts and bushings and belts, I have only replaced the AMM, and the odometer finally broke.

I doubt any car today will match that car in reliability, but I would like to feel that a cared for radiator makes it 100k? Rotors last longer than 30k? OK reasonable driving, I don't live to slam on the brakes. It's been hard to accept that whatever car I get will be a computer attached to sensors and sealed units, but I would like to feel it's reasonable to maintain the car. I have turned a wrench or two in my day, but I can't do all the things I used to for physical reasons or place to do it. My days of pulling engines on hoists are probably done. Slapping on brakes and rotors aren't a big deal. Pulling a radiator, or pulling injectors I have done on other cars many times.

If I can find one that has not been run too hard, and has been well maintained at that mileage, is this a car I can expect to reasonably maintain for the next 12 years or so? Reasonable is not dropping 1200 on a set of brakes and rotors every 30k. I have easily gotten far more out of rotors on the Volvos, and so has my father on his BMWs.

I really like the car(s) so I would like this to be my next purchase, but I am feeling a little skittish. I would love some balanced feedback.

Many Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2014, 12:55 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Caesonia,

I'm the guy who wrote the doc you read, and my belief is that the BMW naturally aspirated I6 is one of the best engines in the market. A 2010/11 528 N52B30 engine has 254 hp@6600 and 229 lb·ft@2600 torque), and is the last non-turbo BMW 6, I believe, in the US market. It's pretty much rock solid. My guess is that even the bugs in the electric water pump have been worked out by 2010/11 on the N52 engine.

If maintained as noted in the doc you read, it'll easily do 100K without major problems -- as long as you change the tranny fluid every 50k or so, and the rest of the fluids on a regular schedule. Above 100K, there will likely be a series of issues to solve, and if you take the car to a good indy, it won't kill your bank account. Schnexpel (guy on the board here)rebuilt one that had 230K miles on it. But, bottom line is that it isn't the bulletproof Volvo of yore. It's a highly techy computer on wheels that will need regular fluids/lubes/battery maintenance and intelligence to own (intelligence meaning understanding the car and anticipating its ongoing needs).

Mileages are still pretty low: here's 2010 for $23K with 17K mi on it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-5-Series...US_Cars_Trucks

Just an example.

Good luck.
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  #3  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:54 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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BMW reliability isn't what it once was. My father owned a 5-series E12 (1980) and my brother an E24 (1987) and both were very reliable, but sadly BMW does not focus on reliability these days. As most BMWs are leased, BMW is happy if they make it out of the lease period with a minimum of maintenance trouble, and they skimp on the "free maintenance" during the warranty period by extending maintenance intervals to reduce costs, putting further pressure on long term reliability. They really ignore reliability in the car's life after warranty.

If you can turn a wrench yourself or count on your father or brother to do so on your behalf, AND you highly value the superior handling of the BMW, then by all means jump in. I agree with Banglenot that the BMW normally aspirated in-line six engine is one of the best engines ever made.

But if you are considering it primarily for its good looks and rear wheel drive capabilities, and don't have a family wrench turner, then I would say run away. Past the engine, the rest of the car can be highly unreliable and expensive to fix. If it will be treated as little more than good looking transportation, then much more reliable alternatives exist like maybe a used Infiniti M35, G37, or a Lexus.

As basic transportation it just isn't worth the hassle to own a used BMW.

But for true handling aficionados like me, it is very much worth the pain of ownership. The challenge for me is wiping the sh*t-eaten grin off my face after finishing up some twisted road driving.

IMHO your DIY skills, attention to maintenance and driving style deserve careful introspection before committing to a used BMW.
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  #4  
Old 03-17-2014, 02:45 AM
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Sumfuncomet Sumfuncomet is offline
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Before you buy a 528 you owe it to yourself to drive a 550 andifyou want to tinker and build some real power drive a 535 that's been modified. If you want real inexpensive dead reliable transportation buy a Camry like all the other sheep!
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  #5  
Old 03-17-2014, 10:35 AM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post

If you can turn a wrench yourself or count on your father or brother to do so on your behalf, AND you highly value the superior handling of the BMW, then by all means jump in. I agree with Banglenot that the BMW normally aspirated in-line six engine is one of the best engines ever made.

But if you are considering it primarily for its good looks and rear wheel drive capabilities, and don't have a family wrench turner, then I would say run away. Past the engine, the rest of the car can be highly unreliable and expensive to fix. If it will be treated as little more than good looking transportation, then much more reliable alternatives exist like maybe a used Infiniti M35, G37, or a Lexus.

As basic transportation it just isn't worth the hassle to own a used BMW.
LOL, I guess it takes all kinds, but I never found Lexus or Infinity to be particularly good looking cars. They leave my blood about as cold as possible. But I always thought the 240 a pretty nice looking car, and for all that they are supposedly boxy, they don't have a straight edge on them They are also underestimated in terms of handling. I have run my sedans pretty hard around tracks, dirt and tarmac. I had to laugh when my neighbor borrowed my 20 year old car a few months ago, and commented on how much better it handled than her much newer Accord. And my mom's Camry wasn't that reliable, or cheap to fix, and was completely worn out at 150k, and my mom takes care of her cars.

Yes, handling matters to me a great deal, but obviously not enough to completely outweigh practicality. Because of driving my father's race cars from the time I was very young - including a handful of British Roadtsers - I know what I am driving when I get into it. That's why I was sucked in after driving the X5 a few times. I expect any car that replaces the Volvo to drive better, and be quieter on the road with better fuel mileage and I have accepted it will probably require more repairs. The question I am trying to answer is where that trade off is for me in any modern car. I want more than point a to point b, because frankly, bent quarter panel and all, my Volvo will keep right on doing that right now, with AC blasting cold and the seats heating my bottom.

I don't feel any car today should be dropping it's tranny with good servicing in less than 160k. More on the engine, provided it's not all granny 5 mile trips. I also like to know that by repairing things as they should be, I am not likely to be stranded. I don't mind getting stuck in the snow or sand from time to time, but I do very much mind being broken down on a cold rainy night.

My father's and brother have 2004 for their latest vintages, and those seem to be 100% reliable so far. One gets driven a lot, the other not as much. But they thought I should go for the E60 because their models might be getting a little age on them. Maybe they should still be in the running. You can certainly get them for a very good price.

Thank you for your feedback.
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  #6  
Old 03-17-2014, 11:49 AM
f30jojo f30jojo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Caesonia,

I'm the guy who wrote the doc you read, and my belief is that the BMW naturally aspirated I6 is one of the best engines in the market. A 2010/11 528 N52B30 engine has 254 hp@6600 and 229 lb·ft@2600 torque), and is the last non-turbo BMW 6, I believe, in the US market. It's pretty much rock solid. My guess is that even the bugs in the electric water pump have been worked out by 2010/11 on the N52 engine.


Good luck.
E60 528i has 230hp/200lbs/ft. The 06-07 530i had the 255hp N52 also used in the x5,x3 and z4 and 330i of the same years. Im still not sure why bmw sold the N52 with so many different outputs. From 212, 224, 230, 255. German only model 530 got the n53 (direct injection n52) good for 275hp NA...


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  #7  
Old 03-17-2014, 11:59 AM
pjinca pjinca is offline
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Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
E60 528i has 230hp/200lbs/ft. The 06-07 530i had the 255hp N52 also used in the x5,x3 and z4 and 330i of the same years. Im still not sure why bmw sold the N52 with so many different outputs. From 212, 224, 230, 255. German only model 530 got the n53 (direct injection n52) good for 275hp NA...


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They have been doing this for many years, the previous I6 engine - the M54 was the same whether you had a 525/325 (172 hp) or the 530/330 (225 HP), the difference wasn't the block or nearly all the mechanicals, the difference was simply the intake manifolds.

Different outputs for different models. You would be surprised how many auto makers do the exact same thing - detune the same engines for models lower in the price range.
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  #8  
Old 03-17-2014, 01:11 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesonia View Post
LOL, I guess it takes all kinds, but I never found Lexus or Infinity to be particularly good looking cars. They leave my blood about as cold as possible. But I always thought the 240 a pretty nice looking car, and for all that they are supposedly boxy, they don't have a straight edge on them

My father's and brother have 2004 for their latest vintages, and those seem to be 100% reliable so far.
LOL - Yes it does take all kinds. If you think the Volvo 240 station wagon is better looking than an Infiniti M35 then my guess is aesthetics is really not a factor for you.

I don't know how long your father and brother have owned their 2004s, but if they are that good at picking used cars then you should have no problems if they pick one for you.

Best of luck!
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  #9  
Old 03-17-2014, 03:45 PM
H F H F is online now
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If you do decide to go for an e60,, make sure u get the sport suspension,, its a must. IMO the ARS computer controlled hydraulic torsion bar is the best feature these cars have to offer. A e60 with ARS is an under rated 4 door cornering machine! It will keep you smiling for days after carving some canyon switch backs and s turns.
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  #10  
Old 03-17-2014, 07:27 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post
LOL - Yes it does take all kinds. If you think the Volvo 240 station wagon is better looking than an Infiniti M35 then my guess is aesthetics is really not a factor for you.

I don't know how long your father and brother have owned their 2004s, but if they are that good at picking used cars then you should have no problems if they pick one for you.

Best of luck!
The Volvo 245 looks like what it is, a utilitarian station wagon with decent handling characteristics. Not as agile as the 240 sedan. Is it as aerodynamic as it could be? No, but it looks like a car. A lot of modern cars just looks like jellybeans with big wheels on them. The 5 series still looks like a car, though it does have a bit big boot on it. Honestly, I like the BMWs of the late 90's the most in terms of looks.

My father bought his 2004 when it was 4 years old, and the same for my brother. He puts loads of miles on is 3 series wagon, and he said it's been very reliable. Yes, he does the maintenance, and he does it himself, lest he get killed with the BMW premium. They really like that 6 cylinder engine.Not sure about their z3s, because I don't know what years theya re. The 635 is an 87, and yes, it's needed things done, and has about 300k on it now.

I am very careful about maintenance. The wagon gets new valve cover gaskets, plugs, cap, and total fluid changes at 30k. Oil every 5-6 k with synthetic, or one year, whichever comes first.

The trick is getting them to pick a car. They don't really know the e60, but dad is going to ask the local club members. I thought about taking the document you all made to the indie dealer, which will literally go hand pick you a car. Yes you pay a little more, but I know they are really careful, and they support their product.
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Old 03-17-2014, 07:49 PM
pjinca pjinca is offline
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Basically, go find the options you want, then set about looking for a car with those options. Buy the best, low mileage car you can afford. The go for it. This, and other forums are a real WEALTH of knowledge and we will all be here to help you out with questions.
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  #12  
Old 03-19-2014, 07:52 AM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Originally Posted by pjinca View Post
Basically, go find the options you want, then set about looking for a car with those options. Buy the best, low mileage car you can afford. The go for it. This, and other forums are a real WEALTH of knowledge and we will all be here to help you out with questions.
Definitely there is a wealth of knowledge out there. I think reading the succes stories has me a little more comfortable. Clearly there are some weaknesses, but you aren't necessarily hit by them, and if the car has been correctly cared for, you stand a chance on avoiding them. I am going to keep my eyes open, and ask questions as I start looking at them.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:55 AM
Hooch33 Hooch33 is offline
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Originally Posted by Caesonia View Post
No, I don't own a BMW yet. Several family members do, and while I have appreciated them for what theya re, I have been very loyal to the Volvo badge. However, after 20 years of UNBELIEVABLY good service from my 245, I might have to let go. Volvo today is not Volvo 20 years ago.

And....I used a friend's X5 a few times to carry her to the airport and a few other longer distance rides, and was like...Holy cow. Ok. This isn't dad's 635 which seats beat you to death even if the car runs on rails. BMW can build a car with a more ergonomical interior and make an SUV drive like a sticky car.

Hmmmmm.....


I am going to state up front that I am a RWD kinda gal. My dad raced cars and I like to steer with both ends. I don't abuse my cars, but I want the control I want when I need it. BMW? Check.

My last experiences with new vehicles have left me totally disgusted with battles voer clear warranty issues, so I am looking to get something used. My big trucks I usually buy between 4-6 years and 60-70k, and have found I have gotten the best bang for buck and service. Provided they have been taken care of, I have run them down the road without much trouble for about 15 years.

So, I am nosing at the 5 series, preferably naturally aspirated like the 528i. I think it's a nice looking car, and if it's 08 and up, it has the current interior that I like.

I have read the wonderful document you all have been putting together here, and I admit to being a bit...concerned? I don't think my father or brother have had as much trouble with their BMWs over the years, and they certainly haven't been any more costly to care for than the Hondas and Toyotas family members have owned. They've been good cars with a much better driving experience. And my 245 wagon should be renamed from Fat Emma to Indestucta, because that car doesn't break. If it hand;t been totaled, and I wasn't driving on a salvage title, I wouldn't be here. I take care of it and it has NEVER in 20 years, not moved under it's own power. There have been a few close calls, but other than regular maintenance, like struts and bushings and belts, I have only replaced the AMM, and the odometer finally broke.

I doubt any car today will match that car in reliability, but I would like to feel that a cared for radiator makes it 100k? Rotors last longer than 30k? OK reasonable driving, I don't live to slam on the brakes. It's been hard to accept that whatever car I get will be a computer attached to sensors and sealed units, but I would like to feel it's reasonable to maintain the car. I have turned a wrench or two in my day, but I can't do all the things I used to for physical reasons or place to do it. My days of pulling engines on hoists are probably done. Slapping on brakes and rotors aren't a big deal. Pulling a radiator, or pulling injectors I have done on other cars many times.

If I can find one that has not been run too hard, and has been well maintained at that mileage, is this a car I can expect to reasonably maintain for the next 12 years or so? Reasonable is not dropping 1200 on a set of brakes and rotors every 30k. I have easily gotten far more out of rotors on the Volvos, and so has my father on his BMWs.

I really like the car(s) so I would like this to be my next purchase, but I am feeling a little skittish. I would love some balanced feedback.

Many Thanks in advance.
Want a reliable, easy to work on, fast, rwd best bang for the buck car? Buy a C6 Vette.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:12 AM
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Jaystyles Jaystyles is offline
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Considering coming to the 'Dark Side,' 528i

I totally agree with everyone here. My gateway bimmer experience was driving my brother's 2005 750. I was blown away at the handing and speed of the car. I currently own a 2004 545i with 140k....These are the most dreaded E60 to own. I do a lot of maintenance my self and developed a good relationship with a local indy. Needless to say i dont regret owning this car its soo fun to drive and has been reliable because i've keep up with the repairs above and beyond and so did the previous owner. These cars require a bit more attention to detail and intelligence as stated than the average car...but then again this isnt your average car!

I'd get a bimmer with sport suspension as recommended and take the plunge, your spirit will thank you. Lastly i wouldn't of had the confidence to own a bimmer if it weren't for forums like this and others with really dedicated members who answer your questions and leave behind a hefty paper trail of pictures and documentation of the dyi's .

These cars are built for those who are surgical in their driving!

Best of luck.

Last edited by Jaystyles; 03-20-2014 at 07:01 AM.
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2014, 10:13 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Took a 2008 528i out today, and a 2014 3 series diesel

It was a very interesting experience. I really enjoyed the perkiness and zippiness of the diesel. It's a real go go mobile. The car performs. It's very agile, and I found myself going faster than I thought I was. There was a lot more wind noise than I expected. Almost as loud as my 240 wagon, and that was a surprise for a car that's supposed to be very aerodynamic vs my box. I kind of liked that there were choices for the type of driving style I wanted, but I fear these having the possibility of extra breaking. I also found the car turning off every time I came to a stop very disconcerting. Eco-friendly as it is, there is the scare that the car won't start. It also puts a lot more wear and tear on the starter. If I bought something with a turbo on it, it would be the diesel. If you settled for the RWD I can see getting in the 40's range, but with the performance. Screw the Prius and it's mpg. Move over Toyota, Mercedes, Lexus, Infinity, you just got owned on every level.

Driving the 5 series was really driving a different car, but one I honestly felt more at home with. This is a car I am more familiar with, and the engine sounded like the BMWs I have known. The steering was heavier, like I am used to in my father'cars, and my Volvo. It was also a good deal quieter on the highway. It wasn't quite so zippy, but I felt more settled with the weightier handling and sedateness. Again, like my father's cars, and the 245. It didn't feel quite as tight as I thought it would, but I got the feeling that car wasn't really loved by it's previous owners. Not abused, but not loved. The transmission shifted very well, the car didn't do anything quirky, but even the shift stick didn't feel super snug. I didn't really push it in the corners, because I don't know it, but there is a horrible turn at an odd angle going downhill, and that's when I began to see the 4 cornering machine. Most people slow way down, and I didn't really. No roll, no lean, it acted like it was on flat ground. Weighty it might be, but this is not your Uncle Olaf's yacht.

The seats did not beat me up, and I could actually see the hood of the car -OK I saw it in the 3 series - and visibility was good. Because I am so short, that's a big deal to me. Overall the car is nicely appointed, but somehow I felt like there should be a few more bells and whistles in a car of that class, and I am not talking cup holders. Could just be the German stoic style, the car has what it needs to be a wonderful driving machine, so what else would you want? Perhaps that is what you folks are talking about in terms of getting it with the sport or premium package. I know I like my cold weather goodies on my current car. Perhaps some of you folks can talk about some of the driving things to look for. Maybe I was unfair to this particular car.
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