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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 04-09-2014, 11:19 AM
BeamerBro BeamerBro is offline
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Ethical to return tires?

Did not know I had staggered wheels until after I had tires mounted. Good chance they mounted my wheels mixed up. Ex : Wider wheels in the front smaller in the back. Thinking about exchanging the tires under guise of not liking the tires.

Last edited by BeamerBro; 04-09-2014 at 05:55 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-09-2014, 11:57 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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So I bought my 328i sport 2 years ago and it had square tires. I didn't really think anything of it at the time. Fast forward a few months I get a nail in my tire and I take it to get patched. Of course they tell me the tires should be replaced not patched. They were pretty wore not much tread left. I told them I needed to do some research but they stop me by dropping the price of the tires and I accept. They put another square setup on there and I didn't notice until I got home. As soon I saw that larger tires should have been in the back instead of square I called and told them they put the wrong sizes on. They said no the wheels were not staggered. I accept this and assume the guy before me changed the wheels and tires to square setup. Clearly they just lied to me so they wouldn't have to fix the situation. Or they didn't know the difference is only 1/2 inch.

About a year half later my tires have wore uneven which I thought was from a bad alignment or suspension part which was bad and I did replace. Now it seems it might have been from them mounting larger and smaller rims in the wrong places? I really don't know tho.

Yet when I purchased new tires I still thought my wheels were square until a day after I purchased them. I only found out because I was browsing for new wheels that my style only comes in staggered. So now I have square tires again which is not really a problem. The problem is when they asked my wheel size I said 17 inch which is true but I didn't know the width was different by 1/2inch. So now I am running on a setup that more than likely has the wheels mounted in the wrong position. I have no problem with the fact the tires are square.

On top of this I believe one of my wheels is bent very slightly just enough to cause vibration if mounted on the front. Do you guys think they should have caught the bent rim before mounting tires? Do you think the different rim width should have been caught?

What is the least crappy way to proceed in fixing this? I have a 30 day return policy and even tho I have no problem with the square tires on there. I was thinking of changing it to staggered setup now that I know. 1) To avoid this crap ever again 2) I won't be able to rotate square setup with staggered wheels anyway.


Cliffs

Car always had square tires but staggered sport wheels. Did not know because the car came square. Was told by last tire shop they put tires on they were square wheels, they lied so they would not have to fix them. Now I find out after I got a new square set that 1) The rims are bent before they put new tires on 2) they prob mounted wheels mixed up. Is it ethical for me to exchange the tires. Should they have mounted new tires on a bent rim?
Did you tell them what size tires to install? My recommendation is to go back and explain the situation to them and see what they'd be willing to do. I assume you'd only be interested in changing out two of the four tires...correct? As for the bent wheel I don't see it as their responsibility to detect such damage. If the tire balanced OK I see no reason to try and hold them accountable for not noticing.
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  #3  
Old 04-09-2014, 12:04 PM
BeamerBro BeamerBro is offline
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Did you tell them what size tires to install? My recommendation is to go back and explain the situation to them and see what they'd be willing to do. I assume you'd only be interested in changing out two of the four tires...correct? As for the bent wheel I don't see it as their responsibility to detect such damage. If the tire balanced OK I see no reason to try and hold them accountable for not noticing.
Yeah I did tell them to do square tires. I have no problems keeping the square tires really but I would like the larger wheels in the back and the smaller in the front. But from my understanding you can't tell the rims width without unmounted the tires. Especially when it is only 1/2 inch difference. I have heard people with good eye can spot the extra stretch on the wider rims. I do have free rotations so rotating them is free. But how will they tell which tire goes where when the tires are already mounted?
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:12 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Yeah I did tell them to do square tires. I have no problems keeping the square tires really but I would like the larger wheels in the back and the smaller in the front. But from my understanding you can't tell the rims width without unmounted the tires. Especially when it is only 1/2 inch difference. I have heard people with good eye can spot the extra stretch on the wider rims. I do have free rotations so rotating them is free. But how will they tell which tire goes where when the tires are already mounted?
My recommendation is to go back and explain the situation. My experience with tire shops is they've been very helpful. It doesn't hurt to ask.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:17 PM
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Very difficult to follow the original post.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:18 PM
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Should they have mounted a tire on a bent rim. It's better if they told you but customers might think they are trying to sell them either a repair or new wheels.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:19 PM
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Sounds like you have wider wheels but mounted the same sized tire. That is an acceptable practice.
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2014, 07:19 AM
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BostonB6 BostonB6 is offline
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Originally Posted by BeamerBro View Post
Yeah I did tell them to do square tires. I have no problems keeping the square tires really but I would like the larger wheels in the back and the smaller in the front. But from my understanding you can't tell the rims width without unmounted the tires. Especially when it is only 1/2 inch difference. I have heard people with good eye can spot the extra stretch on the wider rims. I do have free rotations so rotating them is free. But how will they tell which tire goes where when the tires are already mounted?
If it's a BMW rim, the size is usually stamped on the backside of the rim along with the BMW part number. No need to unmount the tire from the rim to determine which one's are the wider rims. Something like this.


Last edited by BostonB6; 04-10-2014 at 07:22 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2014, 08:28 AM
BeamerBro BeamerBro is offline
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If it's a BMW rim, the size is usually stamped on the backside of the rim along with the BMW part number. No need to unmount the tire from the rim to determine which one's are the wider rims. Something like this.

Thanks you just saved me a headache!!!
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2014, 08:49 AM
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Beamer, you asked a question about ethics, let me tell you about the law. The people who installed the tires are considered "experts" in the eye of the law. They are responsible for ensuring that what they do does not compromise your safety. There is zero doubt in my mind that installing square tires onto two different sized rims would easily be interpreted as creating a de facto unsafe condition. And if not de facto, any good lawyer could present a case that the installer did not do a proper job as the manufacturer of the car -and the tires!- intended. Any installer which would want to take the risk of a lawsuit resulting from an accident with those tires would be out of their mind.

Those in the business of presenting themselves as proficient in a trade are assumed by the law to be VERY proficient. The installer did not advise you* that what they were doing was unsafe and did not give you the opportunity to avoid the unsafe condition (by buying the correctly sized tires). They owe you two correctly sized tires. You should only expect to pay the difference.

Regardless of what anyone else may post to the contrary you may take the above as gospel. I'm in the trade, I read about these kinds of issues all the time. So what to do? You return to the store. You tell the desk man what happened. You ask that they install the correctly sized tires onto your wheels and you will pay the difference. If the man wasn't selling shoes at WalMart the day before, he knows his obligations and complies. If he doesn't, you ask for the manager and start over. Odds are you will notice him swallow hard and then comply. Again, the fact that you asked them to put those tires onto your wheels is immaterial. They MAY NOT assume you knew you had non-square wheels. End of story.

* A jury wouldn't give a tinker's damn about whether they noticed the mismatched size or not. They would be advised that the installer had a legal obligation to know his business before he ever opened for business. Part of that obligation is to put the right tires on the right rims, and here's the kicker...it doesn't even matter at all what you asked for!

Last edited by DSXMachina; 04-10-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2014, 09:31 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Beamer, you asked a question about ethics, let me tell you about the law. The people who installed the tires are considered "experts" in the eye of the law. They are responsible for ensuring that what they do does not compromise your safety. There is zero doubt in my mind that installing square tires onto two different sized rims would easily be interpreted as creating a de facto unsafe condition. And if not de facto, any good lawyer could present a case that the installer did not do a proper job as the manufacturer of the car -and the tires!- intended. Any installer which would want to take the risk of a lawsuit resulting from an accident with those tires would be out of their mind.

Those in the business of presenting themselves as proficient in a trade are assumed by the law to be VERY proficient. The installer did not advise you* that what they were doing was unsafe and did not give you the opportunity to avoid the unsafe condition (by buying the correctly sized tires). They owe you two correctly sized tires. You should only expect to pay the difference.

Regardless of what anyone else may post to the contrary you may take the above as gospel. I'm in the trade, I read about these kinds of issues all the time. So what to do? You return to the store. You tell the desk man what happened. You ask that they install the correctly sized tires onto your wheels and you will pay the difference. If the man wasn't selling shoes at WalMart the day before, he knows his obligations and complies. If he doesn't, you ask for the manager and start over. Odds are you will notice him swallow hard and then comply. Again, the fact that you asked them to put those tires onto your wheels is immaterial. They MAY NOT assume you knew you had non-square wheels. End of story.

* A jury wouldn't give a tinker's damn about whether they noticed the mismatched size or not. They would be advised that the installer had a legal obligation to know his business before he ever opened for business. Part of that obligation is to put the right tires on the right rims, and here's the kicker...it doesn't even matter at all what you asked for!
In your opinion do you feel the following is correct:

"Sounds like you have wider wheels but mounted the same sized tire. That is an acceptable practice."

Last edited by sunny5280; 04-10-2014 at 09:55 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2014, 09:33 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Did not know I had staggered wheels until after I had tires mounted. Good chance they mounted my wheels mixed up. Ex : Wider wheels in the front smaller in the back. Thinking about exchanging the tires under guise of not liking the tires.

You'll lie?

Bye.


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  #13  
Old 04-10-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
In your opinion do you feel the following is correct:

"Sounds like you have wider wheels but mounted the same sized tire. That is an acceptable practice."

Sunny, I don't mean to parse words like Clinton "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is." But "acceptable practice" and what will hold up in court are two different things. Example: Tens of millions of tires have been repaired (when properly repairable) with plugs pushed through the carcass from the outside. Because some nitwit pushed the limit of what should not have been repaired, and patched the hole with a plug and had a tire failure, we cannot use external type plugs any longer. If we do our insurance disappears.
External plugging was a sound industry practice. One lawyer manages a huge settlement after one plugged tire fails and we can't plug any more.
Wider BMW wheels are designed to have wider tires mounted on them. The shop in question mounted a narrower tire. That may be accepted industry practice (depending on how narrow the tire was). In a courtroom the paralyzed plaintiff's salivating attorney will show documents from BMW which specify a wider tire came from the factory on that sized wheel. The poor plaintiff's tire shop mounted a narrower tire without telling him that a wider tire was specified. Case closed, massive judgement for the plaintiff. No discussion about "acceptable industry practice" will get far.
In summary, my frank answer to your question would be worthless.

Last edited by DSXMachina; 04-10-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2014, 12:41 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Sunny, I don't mean to parse words like Clinton "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is." But "acceptable practice" and what will hold up in court are two different things. Example: Tens of millions of tires have been repaired (when properly repairable) with plugs pushed through the carcass from the outside. Because some nitwit pushed the limit of what should not have been repaired, and patched the hole with a plug and had a tire failure, we cannot use external type plugs any longer. If we do our insurance disappears.
External plugging was a sound industry practice. One lawyer manages a huge settlement after one plugged tire fails and we can't plug any more.
Wider BMW wheels are designed to have wider tires mounted on them. The shop in question mounted a narrower tire. That may be accepted industry practice (depending on how narrow the tire was). In a courtroom the paralyzed plaintiff's salivating attorney will show documents from BMW which specify a wider tire came from the factory on that sized wheel. The poor plaintiff's tire shop mounted a narrower tire without telling him that a wider tire was specified. Case closed, massive judgement for the plaintiff. No discussion about "acceptable industry practice" will get far.
In summary, my frank answer to your question would be worthless.
Not sure what the hell that explanation was all about but you have one person saying the current configuration is OK. If that's the case then your legal argument goes out the window. So yes, the answer to my question is far from worthless. In fact it's critical.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:13 PM
BeamerBro BeamerBro is offline
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You'll lie?

Bye.


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Not really lying. The 30 day return policy which is on pretty much on all decent tire brands states they offer full refunds for tires and mounting cost if I am unhappy with the tires. It might be my fault square tires are on wider wheels. But I honestly thought the rims were all the same width. Because the last dbag tire shop replaced my tires with square and when I called after they installed them informing they put the wrong size on. They just said all my rims were the same which I assumed was true because I bought the car used.

But if I go to them and tell them hey, I told you to put the wrong size tires on there can you put a difference size now? That wont look good so I will just leave out why I don't like the tires.

Not to mention if I switch to firestone Pole position I will save over 200 dollars. Which really makes me think were the Michelin A/S 3 worth 700 dollars?

Last edited by BeamerBro; 04-10-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:19 PM
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Not sure what the hell that explanation was all about but you have one person saying the current configuration is OK. If that's the case then your legal argument goes out the window. So yes, the answer to my question is far from worthless. In fact it's critical.
Sorry my point was unclear to you. Here it is in a nutshell.

My answer to your question has no point in the discussion.

The OP's installer installed the 'wrong' sized tires on his wheels. The installer would be on swampy ground if anything distantly related to tires caused him to have an accident. The OP's installer will follow the new "standard industry procedure" and install the correctly sized tires on his wheels.

I am done trying to explain my point to you. If someone else (pointandgo?) would like to chime in, they may be my guest.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Sorry my point was unclear to you. Here it is in a nutshell.

My answer to your question has no point in the discussion.

The OP's installer installed the 'wrong' sized tires on his wheels. The installer would be on swampy ground if anything distantly related to tires caused him to have an accident. The OP's installer will follow the new "standard industry procedure" and install the correctly sized tires on his wheels.

I am done trying to explain my point to you. If someone else (pointandgo?) would like to chime in, they may be my guest.
The only problem is if I go in armed with wrong size/type of tires. Wont they make me go back to run flats?
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:36 PM
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Not sure what the hell that explanation was all about but you have one person saying the current configuration is OK. If that's the case then your legal argument goes out the window. So yes, the answer to my question is far from worthless. In fact it's critical.
His point is pretty clear. Just because industry standard says it is ok does not really matter because in the end BMW specs will trump the tire industry if anything were to happen.

Firestone stores won't install non run flats on our cars at all and they wont put squares on staggered wheels. Must be a reason for it.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:05 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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His point is pretty clear. Just because industry standard says it is ok does not really matter because in the end BMW specs will trump the tire industry if anything were to happen.

Firestone stores won't install non run flats on our cars at all and they wont put squares on staggered wheels. Must be a reason for it.
Sorry but that's just BS. People make changes (i.e. alter BMW specs) to their cars all the time. Unless said modification is actually dangerous those making them won't have any liability (which is what DSXM was saying).
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:20 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Sorry my point was unclear to you. Here it is in a nutshell.

My answer to your question has no point in the discussion.

The OP's installer installed the 'wrong' sized tires on his wheels. The installer would be on swampy ground if anything distantly related to tires caused him to have an accident. The OP's installer will follow the new "standard industry procedure" and install the correctly sized tires on his wheels.

I am done trying to explain my point to you. If someone else (pointandgo?) would like to chime in, they may be my guest.
And my question to you is: Are they the wrong sized tire? And by wrong I mean in the sense that installing them in this manner would be dangerous. I am not asking if they're wrong because they're different than what BMW originally installed and / or recommends.

I'm taking no position on this one way or the other. You've got one person who states it's an acceptable practice. I take that to mean it is safe to do so. Perhaps that assumption is incorrect. Which is why I asked the question. Not sure why you've gotten your panties in a knot over it.

Last edited by sunny5280; 04-10-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 04-10-2014, 04:23 PM
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A few years ago retured tires before after about 30 days because I messed up and ordered the incorrect tires. Didn't like how they looked. They will still sell them as takeoffs and make money. Go for it!

The shop and manufacture want you to be happy. I have returned to the shop and have purchased 7 sets of tires since. I do about 40k miles a yr on my car alone.

Last edited by Dubfound; 04-10-2014 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
And my question to you is: Are they the wrong sized tire? And by wrong I mean in the sense that installing them in this manner would be dangerous. I am not asking if they're wrong because they're different than what BMW originally installed and / or recommends.

I'm taking no position on this one way or the other. You've got one person who states it's an acceptable practice. I take that to mean it is safe to do so. Perhaps that assumption is incorrect. Which is why I asked the question. Not sure why you've gotten your panties in a knot over it.
Two of the tires which the OP had installed were the incorrect size for the wheels when compared to what BMW specified. I haven't got the foggiest idea whether they meet your definition of being "wrong"; "(that they) would be dangerous."
What I think is immaterial. The installer put on tires which are incorrectly sized for the wheels. Any installer of repute would happily (and quickly) install the correct tires. The OP need not resort to guile.

OP: Some tire shops offer a 'You'll like them!' warranty. If so, you didn't like them. End of story.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:20 PM
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Sorry but that's just BS. People make changes (i.e. alter BMW specs) to their cars all the time. Unless said modification is actually dangerous those making them won't have any liability (which is what DSXM was saying).
Another armchair expert.
Spend a little time researching the legal definition of "implied warranty". Then research jury awards for routine practices determined to be negligent.
Any of our attorneys care to elaborate?
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:27 PM
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Implied Warranty

This from Wikipedia. There are multiple Legal Dictionary definitions but this is the most succinct, and coincidentally contains a very apt example!
Quoting Wikipedia...

"In common law jurisdictions, an implied warranty is a contract law term for certain assurances that are presumed to be made in the sale of products or real property, due to the circumstances of the sale. These assurances are characterized as warranties irrespective of whether the seller has expressly promised them orally or in writing. They include an implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, an implied warranty of merchantability for products, implied warranty of workmanlike quality for services, and an implied warranty of habitability for a home.
The warranty of merchantability is implied, unless expressly disclaimed by name, or the sale is identified with the phrase "as is" or "with all faults." To be "merchantable", the goods must reasonably conform to an ordinary buyer's expectations, i.e., they are what they say they are. For example, a fruit that looks and smells good but has hidden defects would violate the implied warranty of merchantability if its quality does not meet the standards for such fruit "as passes ordinarily in the trade". In Massachusettsconsumer protection law, it is illegal to disclaim this warranty on household goods sold to consumers etc.
The warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is implied when a buyer relies upon the seller to select the goods to fit a specific request. For example, this warranty is violated when a buyer asks a mechanic to provide snow tires and receives tires that are unsafe to use in snow. This implied warranty can also be expressly disclaimed by name, thereby shifting the risk of unfitness back to the buyer."
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:26 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Another armchair expert.
Spend a little time researching the legal definition of "implied warranty". Then research jury awards for routine practices determined to be negligent.
Any of our attorneys care to elaborate?
Oh grow up. If you disagree with something I've written feel free to address it but leave the snide comments out.

With that said I have no disagreement with you regarding the legal aspect. I pretty much agree with most everything you've written. The question I have is: Were they negligent? At this time I have seen no evidence the tire shop did anything wrong.

Last edited by sunny5280; 04-11-2014 at 06:05 AM.
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