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E34 (1989 - 1995)

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  #1  
Old 05-21-2014, 08:20 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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M30 Ignition Question

In hopes I can find someone who knows a fair bit about the Ignition system on a 1992 535i M30B35, I am experiencing a seldom starting issue, the car will turn over, but not start until the second attempt. After it is started everything seems okay, no power loss or anything. I decided to test the coil as per the Bentley and the Coil Primary resistance checks out at 0.70 Ohms (its still a bit out, as its meant to be 0.50 Ohms), while the Coil secondary reads 0 Ohms, Bentley says it is meant to read 6.0 Ohms. Could this be the cause of my occasional starting issue?
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  #2  
Old 05-22-2014, 06:39 AM
MySatinDoll MySatinDoll is offline
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Hey,
On M30b35 there's only one coil the other would be the distributor.

Now if your talking about the starter. Then I understand where your coming from.
Is the issue prolonged cranking before it catches, or it doesn't catch till you go through
the whole key to ignition to start/ crank sequence a few times?

You could be due for a starter solenoid.
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  #3  
Old 05-22-2014, 11:48 AM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MySatinDoll View Post
Hey,
On M30b35 there's only one coil the other would be the distributor.

Now if your talking about the starter. Then I understand where your coming from.
Is the issue prolonged cranking before it catches, or it doesn't catch till you go through
the whole key to ignition to start/ crank sequence a few times?

You could be due for a starter solenoid.
Sorry, I should have been more specific (I was quite tired when I posted this thread). The Starter seems perfectly fine, it cranks the engine over nice and strong. I am however talking about the single coil. I tested as per the Bentley manual. Below are some pictures of the section.

http://prntscr.com/3lldx2
http://prntscr.com/3llecp

The Coil primary (Connections 15 and 1) in my case reads 0.70 kilo ohms.
The Coil secondary (Connections 15 and center tower) in my case reads 0 kilo ohms.

As you can tell by the pictures this is quite out of spec, what I'm wondering, could this cause a rough idle/hard starting?
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  #4  
Old 05-24-2014, 05:57 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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  #5  
Old 05-24-2014, 06:57 PM
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E34ZombieHunter E34ZombieHunter is offline
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It could be the cause, but it should be replaced anyway if it is out of spec, and go from there.
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  #6  
Old 05-29-2014, 10:28 AM
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Are you experiencing long cranking times or it simply won't start no matter how you crank it on the first try? If a bit of cranking starts it I'll bet your fuel pump is dying.
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2014, 11:32 AM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
Are you experiencing long cranking times or it simply won't start no matter how you crank it on the first try? If a bit of cranking starts it I'll bet your fuel pump is dying.
Yeah I am experiencing long cranking times, however not all the time either, sometimes she starts right up. If it were the fuel pump wouldn't I notice it more at higher speeds? The car runs fine at higher speeds.

EDIT: I have replaced the dizzy cap and rotor, all of my issues are still present...

I'm also trying to solve another issue maybe some can help with as well. Just to clarify the car is an automatic. When I am pulling up an uphill driveway, or any hill for the matter at relatively low rpms (1000-1300) I experience the occasional stumble. Kinda like a misfire, it does affect RPM slightly. The reason why I'm confused is because the engine runs smooth a can be in park or neutral. Could this be the torque converter or transmission giving me this stumbling felling/noise?
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:12 AM
capricornbmw capricornbmw is offline
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Unplug the ects. This is the blue tipped coolant temperature sensor on your engine. Then see if your hard starting is still there. If it disappears, then change that sensor.

Anyway, if you intend to keep your car, change to an new oem fuel pump, fuel pump relay, main relay and cps (crankshaft position sensor), all of which will cost you under $300 and maybe 1.5 hours installation time at most. These are common failure items on E34s of this vintage and they will get you sooner or later.

Finally, please rinse out your fuel filter. It could be blocked. You can ask Ross1 on how this is done he is the resident expert here on these things. Alternatively, you could purchase a new filter, write the installation date on it, and put it in.
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2014, 02:15 AM
m735is m735is is offline
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Does it matter if you turn the key to run but not start the first time about three times, then try to start it? If it fires right up, then I would just add a fuel check valve by the pump. To measure this, just add a gauge to the fuel system and check for pressure loss after you turn the car off. There used to be a BMW check valve retrofit kit for about $8, but it's NLA. SO you'd have to find one that works.
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Old 05-30-2014, 05:13 AM
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Yeah I am experiencing long cranking times

You see, here is the difference between someone who has actually done these things and a guy posting from mom's basement wearing only black socks telling you to summarily change out half the parts on your car and wash your fuel filter with soap and water.
Your symptoms indicate a dying fuel pump. I've seen it before, not just read about it.
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Last edited by ross1; 05-30-2014 at 05:35 AM.
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m735is View Post
Does it matter if you turn the key to run but not start the first time about three times, then try to start it? If it fires right up, then I would just add a fuel check valve by the pump. To measure this, just add a gauge to the fuel system and check for pressure loss after you turn the car off. There used to be a BMW check valve retrofit kit for about $8, but it's NLA. SO you'd have to find one that works.
That NLA check valve would likely clear the issue, at least for a while but the pump is on the way out.
I performed a post mortem on the last one I changed out that was exhibiting these symptoms. Without knowing the tolerances needed I'd say it looked fine to the eye but it wasn't tight enough to retain pressure after shut down and took a long time to pressurize the rail. The only visual clue ( to my eye) was the coating on the race was worn thin in spots. A fresh pump cured it.
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  #12  
Old 05-30-2014, 06:22 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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What is the easiest way to check fuel pressure on these cars? I do not see a test port on the fuel rail or anything similar :/

EDIT: Also I forgot to mention the car only has 70k miles on it, is it really that common for a fuel pump to fail with such low mileage?

Also to add onto this, to my knowledge the valves have never been adjusted, and according to many forum topics and websites valve adjustment is crucial on the M30 engine. At 70k miles would it be time to do this? (maybe overdue?). Could the valve adjustment be the cause of a semi rough idle, and the engine hiccups when under load at low rpms (In drive, going uphill, rpms within 1000-1500)?

And finally but not least, spark plugs... Stay with bosch copper, or will it get a better idle with Bosch Platinum Ir Fusion plugs? http://www.boschautoparts.com/Vehicl...&part_num=4506
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  #13  
Old 06-02-2014, 01:01 PM
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It sounds like the engine is WAY WAY overdue for a correctly executed tune up. I have used copper and more expensive plugs with no real difference ONCE EVERYTHING ELSE is set correctly. To test fuel pressure you need to 'T' into the supply to the fuel rail. In an ideal world the rail should show (engine on or off) 40psi for ever. Holding around 35 is borderline - below that something is a junker - either FPR or fuel pump. Valve clearance will affect engine performance.
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  #14  
Old 06-02-2014, 02:47 PM
MySatinDoll MySatinDoll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStriker095 View Post
Yeah I am experiencing long cranking times, however not all the time either, sometimes she starts right up. If it were the fuel pump wouldn't I notice it more at higher speeds? The car runs fine at higher speeds.

EDIT: I have replaced the dizzy cap and rotor, all of my issues are still present...

I'm also trying to solve another issue maybe some can help with as well. Just to clarify the car is an automatic. When I am pulling up an uphill driveway, or any hill for the matter at relatively low rpms (1000-1300) I experience the occasional stumble. Kinda like a misfire, it does affect RPM slightly. The reason why I'm confused is because the engine runs smooth a can be in park or neutral. Could this be the torque converter or transmission giving me this stumbling felling/noise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStriker095 View Post
What is the easiest way to check fuel pressure on these cars? I do not see a test port on the fuel rail or anything similar :/

EDIT: Also I forgot to mention the car only has 70k miles on it, is it really that common for a fuel pump to fail with such low mileage?

Also to add onto this, to my knowledge the valves have never been adjusted, and according to many forum topics and websites valve adjustment is crucial on the M30 engine. At 70k miles would it be time to do this? (maybe overdue?). Could the valve adjustment be the cause of a semi rough idle, and the engine hiccups when under load at low rpms (In drive, going uphill, rpms within 1000-1500)?

And finally but not least, spark plugs... Stay with bosch copper, or will it get a better idle with Bosch Platinum Ir Fusion plugs? http://www.boschautoparts.com/Vehicl...&part_num=4506

Ross and Bimmer Daddy Fig nailed it.
Fuel Pump and tune up with valves adjusted at the cam at .009 should resolve your issues.
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  #15  
Old 06-06-2014, 02:42 AM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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So I have actually done absolutely nothing mechanical to the car. I have however disconnected the battery, and pulled apart my ECU (previous owner mentioned something about a aftermarket chip) it turns out I have an EAT Ultrachip (179.6k8). To my understanding these are relatively good chips.

Anyway after doing a reset by disconnecting the battery for 30+ mins the engine stumble described above has vanished, and I am welcomed with a new slightly less annoying issue. It now idles rough when in park or neutral. Once in drive, or reverse it seems fine. Is this normal activity for the M30 with run a bit rough without a load on it? By "a bit rough" I mean enough to shake a glass of water slightly. Maybe my expectations for a engine that was built 21 years ago are too high? RPM's no longer fluctuate at all, just the minor shaking when no load is on the engine.

I will get around to doing the valve adjustment one day, maybe even a fuel delivery system overhaul, as I have already done the ignition.

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Old 06-07-2014, 10:53 PM
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Could be the ECU is still 'learning' after the reset. What about the rest of the turne up?
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  #17  
Old 06-07-2014, 11:10 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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I will not be doing the valve adjustment until the next oil change. But as of now I do think the motor is running fine. I honestly think I'm just thinking its worse then it actually is. A key problem is I'm comparing an the idle to a japanese car (1994 Toyota Supra), which uses a much more advanced engine control unit.
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:12 AM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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Well I have decided to go ahead with the valve adjustment next weekend, awaiting a new valve cover gasket to come in.

The reason why I am motivated to do the adjustment is because there is a very distinctive "ticking" noise emitting around cylinder 1 and 2, much more noticeable is I use a long screwdriver as a stethoscope. Sounds like this (skip to 17 seconds, ps: this is not my car.)

Do you guys this noise is being caused by valve clearance? (I hope so :/)

What are you opinions on the clearance? Bentley says 0.012in cold, however many people claim 0.009in is better.

Also any tips for doing this job? Any specific tool, or things I should replace while I have the valve cover off?
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:32 PM
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I stick to book but would go to 0.010 to quiet things. You can get flats on the excentric wheel at the end of the rocker which causes problems. Long cranking is (generally) caused by CPS failing or FPR/pump de-pressurising the fuel rail. Just clean off obvious crud and maybe flush out the breather labyrinth.
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  #20  
Old 07-08-2014, 10:08 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWFatherFigure View Post
I stick to book but would go to 0.010 to quiet things. You can get flats on the excentric wheel at the end of the rocker which causes problems. Long cranking is (generally) caused by CPS failing or FPR/pump de-pressurising the fuel rail. Just clean off obvious crud and maybe flush out the breather labyrinth.
Yeah I think I'm going to stick with the book as far as the gap goes.

Already replaced the CPS, no change. I tested the FPR with air, it was able to hold more then 45psi of air pressure (Not sure if this would be a valid test).

Will be getting fuel pressure tested sometime this week, the strange thing about the long cranking times is it is intermittent, sometimes it fires up on the first crank (Literally, sometimes less then half a second to start). On rare occasions it will take several cranking attempts to start (5+ seconds each try, sometimes taking more then 3 attempts to start), and once it does fire up when this rare issue happens the RPM slowly climbs to idle.

I assuming there is either a leaking injector that is flooding the engine when its off, or the fuel is getting drained back into the tank (sometimes??), its very odd.

Like I said I will be getting a fuel pressure test done sometime this week, I will start the car with the gauge connected, then monitor the pressure after its off. If it looses a bit of pressure I know there is a problem somewhere.

I will keep you guys updated on my outcome

EDIT: I have also gotten the opinion from Bimmerparts (BMW/Mini auto wrecker/parts place in Duncan BC, very friendly people), they too think its a fuel injector, or pump. (I have replaced my AFM, ICV, ECU/DME, Ignition Coil, Dizzy Cap + Rotor). I guess the saying is true... BMW = Bring My Wallet :P Ha, I've also learnt the saying "BMW = Broke My Water Pump" as this is the first thing that broke when I purchased the car :/ Damn plastic impellers....
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Old 07-09-2014, 03:02 AM
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BMWFatherFigure BMWFatherFigure is offline
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At the risk of using hind-sight just replacing parts without real cause is expensive. Better to test and quantify rather than poke and hope. Try to hire/borrow whatever test equipment you need.
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStriker095 View Post
Yeah I think I'm going to stick with the book as far as the gap goes.

Already replaced the CPS, no change. I tested the FPR with air, it was able to hold more then 45psi of air pressure (Not sure if this would be a valid test).

Will be getting fuel pressure tested sometime this week, the strange thing about the long cranking times is it is intermittent, sometimes it fires up on the first crank (Literally, sometimes less then half a second to start). On rare occasions it will take several cranking attempts to start (5+ seconds each try, sometimes taking more then 3 attempts to start), and once it does fire up when this rare issue happens the RPM slowly climbs to idle.

I assuming there is either a leaking injector that is flooding the engine when its off, or the fuel is getting drained back into the tank (sometimes??), its very odd.

Like I said I will be getting a fuel pressure test done sometime this week, I will start the car with the gauge connected, then monitor the pressure after its off. If it looses a bit of pressure I know there is a problem somewhere.

I will keep you guys updated on my outcome

EDIT: I have also gotten the opinion from Bimmerparts (BMW/Mini auto wrecker/parts place in Duncan BC, very friendly people), they too think its a fuel injector, or pump. (I have replaced my AFM, ICV, ECU/DME, Ignition Coil, Dizzy Cap + Rotor). I guess the saying is true... BMW = Bring My Wallet :P Ha, I've also learnt the saying "BMW = Broke My Water Pump" as this is the first thing that broke when I purchased the car :/ Damn plastic impellers....
I'd suggest setting the valves at the loose end of spec if a smooth idle is what you are after. You'll have a bit of noise but it will be smoother. Setting at the cam is a good idea as the rocker eccentrics tend to wear which effect accuracy when lashing there.
Inspect the oil spray bar bolts while there, they loosen.
Setting the valves tight is guaranteed to give you a rougher, albeit quieter, idle.
Unless you are seeing signs of fuel wash or black smoke when starting your long crank times are almost certainly a weak fuel pump and not an injector leaking down.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:19 AM
MySatinDoll MySatinDoll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStriker095 View Post
I will not be doing the valve adjustment until the next oil change. But as of now I do think the motor is running fine. I honestly think I'm just thinking its worse then it actually is. A key problem is I'm comparing an the idle to a japanese car (1994 Toyota Supra), which uses a much more advanced engine control unit.
yeo as far as a m30 is concerned that comparison will get you in trouble every time...

engine noise wise that is.

I agree with both suggestions. If it's the first time you're attempting this. (which I think you stated it will be) keeping it at .010 will be fine. I know of the chip you have. Good chip for the money.
The m30 idle shake is somewhat normal. It feels weird sometimes like something is off but it's just the nature of the beast call m30b35.

If you want to get rid of it, or bring it down a notch try stiffer motor and trans mounts.
Also take a look at your exhaust hangers. specifically the one by the CSB and the hanger off the trans. when loose they will shake the car a little more than normal.
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2014, 06:02 AM
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Also clean out the throttle body and the idle control valve.
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  #25  
Old 08-08-2014, 09:46 PM
TheStriker095 TheStriker095 is offline
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Its been awhile since I've updated this topic, so I thought I'd let you guys know whats gone on in the past while.

Valve adjustment completed, I went with 0.010 for the gap.
I've also replaced the fuel pump, and regulator with new OEM parts.
Done a smoke test on intake system, no leaks found.
Replaced ICV, MAF, ECU/DME with known good used parts.
Replaced CPS with new OEM part.
Replaced dizzy cap & rotor with aftermarket part.

Rough/shaking idle still comes in random bursts, I'm really at a loss here, does anyone have any other suggestions on what could be causing this? The engine only has 120000km on it, and from what I can tell previous owners have taken stellar care of it, with routine maintenance so I cant really see it being a mechanical issue.

Also it may be worth mentioning that even with a new fuel pump and fuel regulator, the system still looses pressure slowly when the engine is off, could this be caused by bad injector/injectors?
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