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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 11-11-2004, 04:28 PM
dnp_now dnp_now is offline
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How does the X5 4.8 compare against the Cayenne Turbo?

How does the x5 4.8 stack up against the turbo on paper and in real world conditions? Speed, handling, etc, all the important data that I don't ever really notice unless I read it in a purty magazine.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2004, 06:36 PM
surreal surreal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnp_now
How does the x5 4.8 stack up against the turbo on paper and in real world conditions? Speed, handling, etc, all the important data that I don't ever really notice unless I read it in a purty magazine.

Thanks

On paper---Turbo= 450 hp 0-60= 5.3
x5 4.8 355hp 0-60 = 6.0


The porsche's handing is a little more sophisticated because all it has made up to this point is sports cars that focus on turning and handiling. They both have smooth rides as you could presume. The turbo is extremely fast and rivals almost every sports car ( M3, Boxster, Audi S4). So purley power trubo wins. As for hangling they are about the same maybe a slight edge to the cayenne turbo. Both interior's are phenominal, as all porsche's and bmw's are.--- Eaither one chosen is great---These are the fastest two SUV's made porsche being that fastest.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2004, 06:58 PM
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LeMansX5 LeMansX5 is offline
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Check this article on Jan's site

http://www.janixworld.com/x5/misc/au...ne%20Turbo.pdf
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2004, 07:30 PM
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Bavarian Bavarian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surreal
On paper---Turbo= 450 hp 0-60= 5.3
x5 4.8 355hp 0-60 = 6.0


The porsche's handing is a little more sophisticated because all it has made up to this point is sports cars that focus on turning and handiling. They both have smooth rides as you could presume. The turbo is extremely fast and rivals almost every sports car ( M3, Boxster, Audi S4). So purley power trubo wins. As for hangling they are about the same maybe a slight edge to the cayenne turbo. Both interior's are phenominal, as all porsche's and bmw's are.--- Eaither one chosen is great---These are the fastest two SUV's made porsche being that fastest.
I agree with everything but the interior comparison. IMO, the Porsche interior, just like all Porsche interiors to date, is terribly distasteful and bland (like a Nissan Altima's all-plastic interior pre-2004 model). All other statements were well said.
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2004, 08:48 PM
JPinTO JPinTO is offline
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Doesn't the Cayenne have a 1000lbs weight disadvantage over the X5? Of course, the twin blown motor does make up for that, but all that weight can't be good for handling.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2004, 02:00 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surreal
On paper---Turbo= 450 hp 0-60= 5.3
x5 4.8 355hp 0-60 = 6.0


The porsche's handing is a little more sophisticated because all it has made up to this point is sports cars that focus on turning and handiling. They both have smooth rides as you could presume. The turbo is extremely fast and rivals almost every sports car ( M3, Boxster, Audi S4). So purley power trubo wins. As for hangling they are about the same maybe a slight edge to the cayenne turbo. Both interior's are phenominal, as all porsche's and bmw's are.--- Eaither one chosen is great---These are the fastest two SUV's made porsche being that fastest.
I guess I should reply to this as it's usually my replies that get the folks on Roadfly so worked up . Some of the Cayenne owners are so religious about their cars that they cannot bear to see it criticised..

Anyway, I disagree with some of the points above. I've driven the Cayenne TT many, many times in my search for the ideal SUV and I'm a long-time Porsche fan who has owned Porsche's and BMWs together for the past 15 years or so. I fell out of love with Porsche over the 996 (of which I owned three) and I've since been looking for a reason to buy another Porsche since I'm still an owners club member and miss feeling part of the family. I've now decided to order an 997 GT3 so will use that for my Porsche fix but I just want to set the scene that I "really, really" wanted to like the Cayenne. I have owned 12 Porsches and so often heard the 'blind' faith that since Porsche have a heritage of building sports cars therefore they must by default be the best 'drivers' cars. They're not I'm dissapointed to say, they make as many mistakes as BMW but there are still some gems in their lineup.

The biggest failings for me with the Cayenne were that it didn't feel very sporty, didn't sound sporty and didn't steer like a sporting car either. It felt like an 'Audi' to me, sharp suit, clinical but little emotion. Compared to my 4.6is X5 at the time it was like a choir boy rather than a football player. The Cayenne's steering was light and completely lacking in feel and the chassis whilst much more competent than the 4.6is needed personality. This was the same problem I discovered when I first moved from a 993 to a 996, the 996 was dynamically better but lacking in soul. I've since bought a 4.8is and this has levelled the playing field with the Cayenne TT, being much better chassis wise than the 4.6is and feeling just as smooth as the Cayenne but more of a drivers car also.

The gearbox on the TT was much better than my old 4.6is but now with the 6-speed unit in the 4.8is BMW has turned the tables again and the whole gearbox/engine match is more succesful than in the Cayenne. Very smooth, responsive and in the 4.8is the manual mode is one of the best I've ever driven in an auto box - it's a bit like setting 2 or 3 in the SMG gearbox in my M3 CSL.

There's just no comparison in noise between 4.8is and TT, Porsche should be ashamed of themselves being so totally overshadowed by BMW when in comes down to exhaust tuning. Again the TT lacks character in comparison.

Performance wise, I was always disappointed that Porsche built an SUV that weighed 'more' than the X5 (300kg more) and you can feel this every time you swap between the two. Off the line, the 4.8is is much quicker unless you are brutal with the TT, but even then the 4.8is will initially pull away by a few cars. I've found that in head-to-head comparisons on the road that the 4.8is pulls away then the TT pulls it back and by 100mph is a few cars ahead. Not much though. The TT has a power/weight ratio of arouhd 190 bhp/tonne whereas the 4.8is is around 175 bhp/tonne but in terms of responsivness and drivability they're matched and it would take a very long road for the TT to pull away significantly, which it will eventually. But neither of these are 'performance cars' in the traditional sense, they exist as much for the experience of driving them and in that regard the 4.8is majors on exhaust noise, responsive and smooth engine and fluid chassis. The TT majors on it's explosive mid-range turbo power, more contemporary interior and decent handling. I'm sure you could enjoy either car, but if you're used to the more sporting style of the X5 then the Cayenne can seem a little lacking.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2004, 02:14 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMansX5
I've noticed that several of the press cars that BMW gave to the journos suffered from the same DME problem that blighted my early ownership experience. After the DME recall back in June/July my replacement DME caused my car to think it was overheating (with a temp reading well above the middle point) and a speed limiter kicked in a 126 mph. It took BMW two months to finally admit to me there was a problem after I found another owner in the Czech Republic with the same symptoms. After my car received it's third DME and the software updated it is now 'much' faster than before, so I wonder how many other 4.8is owners are unaware they have this fault. BMW are supposedly carrying out a semi-recall on affected chassis numbers but not before they handed out press cars that performed below par.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2004, 05:30 AM
JPinTO JPinTO is offline
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Steved---

Thank you for the informative reply. That's quite the nice stable of vehicles you have.

Forgetting exterior esthetics... (although the Cayennes makes that hard to do :P) the biggest achilles heel against vehicle performance and dynamics is weight. The Cayenne has tonnes of weight working against it. 700lbs is a huge increase over the X5, pushing that beast to 5000lbs+++. I personally hate the fat that my E46M3 has... the CSL must be a dream.

So, how would you compare the CayenneTT to your M3? Does the TT truly "rival" the it?

Last edited by JPinTO; 11-12-2004 at 05:32 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:02 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPinTO
Steved---

Thank you for the informative reply. That's quite the nice stable of vehicles you have.

Forgetting exterior esthetics... (although the Cayennes makes that hard to do :P) the biggest achilles heel against vehicle performance and dynamics is weight. The Cayenne has tonnes of weight working against it. 700lbs is a huge increase over the X5, pushing that beast to 5000lbs+++. I personally hate the fat that my E46M3 has... the CSL must be a dream.

So, how would you compare the CayenneTT to your M3? Does the TT truly "rival" the it?
Thanks JPinTO. The CSL is indeed very agile, but then so is my Mini Cooper S Works and I also own a Brabus Smart Roadster that weighs just 2000lbs. Weight is the enemy of performance and whilst I tolerate it in the X5, I struggle to accept that a company as innovative as Porsche could have built a car that much heavier than the X5.

The Cayenne TT certainly wouldn't fare very well compared to my M3 CSL which gets to 100mph in 10 seconds, 125mph in 15.5 seconds and reaches 185mph flat out (I've tested it).

The final nail in the coffin for me in comparing 4.8is with Cayenne TT though was fuel economy, when I've driven the TT I've averaged around 13 miles per gallon (european gallon), whereas my 4.8is will average 21 miles per gallon on a similar trip and I've seen 27 miles per gallon on a more gentle journey. That's where you really pay for that extra weight in the Cayenne.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2004, 10:46 AM
dnp_now dnp_now is offline
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Thanks

Thanks you everyone for their thoughts on the the X5 4.8 vs Cayenne Turbo. Now I feel much better and will definitely have less "turbo envy" the next time the turbo (small country. only turbo in the country) drives by.
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2004, 01:17 PM
Mark2025 Mark2025 is offline
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Smile I also drove the Cayenne....

When I was ready to upgrade from my previous 2001 X5 4.4, I went to drive the Cayenne (S not the turbo) and really wanted to like it. I have had 4 Porsches over the last 15 years and love the cars. I was very disappointed in the quality and ride of the Cayenne. Things rattled, didnt work right and felt really cheap inside. I kept it for the weekend and couldn't wait to return it. I ended up ordering a new 2004 4.4 X5 Sport and have not looked back. I can't speak for the Twin Turbo, but the S is no comparison to a properly configured X5 4.4.
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:27 PM
masmole masmole is offline
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Almost pulled the trigger on a Cayenne Turbo a few months back... loved the power, handling was commendable, but still had my doubts because of the styling and the tacky silvery interior trim so I sat on the fence a little... then test drove a used 4.6is and started thinking "hmmm for $40K less, this car is just about as fun to drive as the $98K Porsche and looks better too"... then an Imola Red 4.8is showed up at the dealership and later found out someone cancelled on it.... the choice was easy after one drive! The 4.8is is not only more fun to drive than the Cayenne Turbo, it also looks a hell of a lot better, sounds meaner, and has better seats (I have the sport seats). And even if the 4.8is and Cayenne Turbo were priced the same, I'd still take the 4.8is over it in a heartbeat. In my opinion, the only real justification for ever getting a Cayenne Turbo is if you absolutely have to have the quickest suv on the road. That's it. Otherwise, the 4.8is trumps it in just about every other category, especially styling.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2004, 07:15 PM
Taylor4.8 Taylor4.8 is offline
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OMG! Steved and Masmole,

You guy's make the 4.8is sound so good! If I hadn't already ordered one, I would do it now. I can't wait for mine to come in. I didn't even test drive the Cayenne, just couldn't get past the exterior looks.
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  #14  
Old 11-12-2004, 08:53 PM
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Zeke013 Zeke013 is offline
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OK - OK. I get it. The 4.8is rocks. And for the most part I agree. Took delivery 221 miles ago. No hard driving yet - which of course, means no solid opinion yet. What I HAVE noticed is that I can take turns (freeway offramps, etc., at 60 mph that I'd be frightened to take at 30 in my previous 2002 Toyota Landcruiser; freeway onramps that I used to race onto in my S2000 and I can still downright pick up speed in, in my 4.8is) way better than I am used to.

But what I have also noticed is that I seem to have a possessed shift map with little or no reason for 1) shifting (think slowing from 30 in 3rd gear to a stop sign, reaching 12 mph and the rig downshifting to first gear, slowing itself by using its engine- therby raising the rev to 1500) or 2) denying shifting (think cruising up a slight grade going 13 mph, with your rig in second and refusing to shift to third gear while doing 2700 rpms - or doing 8 mph downhill in first gear with the tranny refusing to shift to second and doing 2000 rpms while slowing the rig.)

Please don't get me wrong - I love the rig. And I believe that I made the right decision. But, honestly, I do believe that the software may need to be re-mapped.

Anyone else got an '05 that feels the same?

Or is it just me? Perhaps I should start another thread rather than post this here - but here you go.
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  #15  
Old 11-12-2004, 08:58 PM
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AB AB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian
I agree with everything but the interior comparison. IMO, the Porsche interior, just like all Porsche interiors to date, is terribly distasteful and bland (like a Nissan Altima's all-plastic interior pre-2004 model). All other statements were well said.
I'm with Ian on this, but not to the same degree. The X5 interior does seem nicer, but the Porsche's isn't THAT bad. My first blush with respect to the Cayenne was that it was a stupid and contrived vehicle. Well, maybe it still is, but I want to get one for my wife next Spring.

The Turbo is out of my price range, but I think I can get a nicely loaded '04 Cayenne S with low miles for ~$50K in about 6 months.
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2004, 10:58 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke013
OK - OK. I get it. The 4.8is rocks. And for the most part I agree. Took delivery 221 miles ago. No hard driving yet - which of course, means no solid opinion yet. What I HAVE noticed is that I can take turns (freeway offramps, etc., at 60 mph that I'd be frightened to take at 30 in my previous 2002 Toyota Landcruiser; freeway onramps that I used to race onto in my S2000 and I can still downright pick up speed in, in my 4.8is) way better than I am used to.

But what I have also noticed is that I seem to have a possessed shift map with little or no reason for 1) shifting (think slowing from 30 in 3rd gear to a stop sign, reaching 12 mph and the rig downshifting to first gear, slowing itself by using its engine- therby raising the rev to 1500) or 2) denying shifting (think cruising up a slight grade going 13 mph, with your rig in second and refusing to shift to third gear while doing 2700 rpms - or doing 8 mph downhill in first gear with the tranny refusing to shift to second and doing 2000 rpms while slowing the rig.)

Please don't get me wrong - I love the rig. And I believe that I made the right decision. But, honestly, I do believe that the software may need to be re-mapped.

Anyone else got an '05 that feels the same?

Or is it just me? Perhaps I should start another thread rather than post this here - but here you go.
Zeke013, I've noticed that the gearbox software needs quite a few miles before it learns your driving style.

However, there are two 'characteristics' that can be slightly irritating, but I work around. Firstly in 'D Mode' it tends to stay in the highest gear possible, sometimes this means that if you reach 6th it's really reluctant to change down on a light-medium throttle. Also if you accelerate lightly in 'D Mode' it can sometimes hunt between gears on the way up through the box as if it's not sure whether to stay longer in 2nd gear or just shift into 3rd and use the torque. I don't find this a problem, but sometimes I just shift the lever across into 'DS mode' to make my intentions clearer.

Another characteristic can be found when in 'DS mode', if you come to a halt or take a slow turn (it changes into 1st), and when you accelerate again it doesn't seem to want to change out of 1st gear and will hold on to this way up to 5000 rpm of more. The solution I find is to either to back off and after a second or so it will change up or press more decisively on the throttle, in which case it will revert back to the sensitivity of a normal mapping and change up as soon as necessary.

It sounds to me like you're driving it in 'DS mode' most of the time, whereas I swtich between D and DS depending on circumstances. Niether of them is perfect for every situation, but there's always one of them that's best.
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2004, 01:33 PM
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Zeke013 Zeke013 is offline
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Steved - I have ALWAYS appreciated your well though out posts!

Thanks for letting me rant and I appreciate your response. How many miles did it take to get your chip to recognize your style?
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  #18  
Old 11-14-2004, 06:52 PM
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Zeke013 Zeke013 is offline
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One more question for Steved or anyone else that may know the answer. Does the auto transmission chip (software) learn to adapt in both sport and regular drive mode? Or does it learn in one and apply that same fuzzy logic in the other?
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2004, 08:11 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke013
One more question for Steved or anyone else that may know the answer. Does the auto transmission chip (software) learn to adapt in both sport and regular drive mode? Or does it learn in one and apply that same fuzzy logic in the other?
I don't know the answer to that one. My guess is that it learns in whichever mode(s) you drive it and compares your use of the throttle with several pre-configured variations of gearbox program to arrive at a suitable ideal for torque convertor sensitivity and kick-down/change-up points. I assume it uses this base line configuration and applies it to whichever mode you are driving in at the time. I must say I would prefer having more control over this process, as in my M3 CSL, whereby I can select up to 6 different programs manually.

Generally I have found that it takes 200-300 miles before the gearbox settles down and acts more consistently, that's what happened with mine after a new DME was fitted and the software reflashed, but it may be different depending on how you drive.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2004, 08:29 AM
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Zeke013 Zeke013 is offline
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Well I've been overly babying it to this point - and likely will continue to do so for a few more hundred miles. I'll report back at the 1,000 mark.

It's just so bizarre to roll out of the garage in the morning in Drive mode (non-sport), turn right down the hill and have the rig stay in first gear with the RPMs at about 2,500 before it shifts into second. And that's with giving it no gas. If I press on the gas, the RPMs continue to rise briefly and it then shifts into second gear.
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  #21  
Old 11-15-2004, 10:42 AM
Steved Steved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke013
Well I've been overly babying it to this point - and likely will continue to do so for a few more hundred miles. I'll report back at the 1,000 mark.

It's just so bizarre to roll out of the garage in the morning in Drive mode (non-sport), turn right down the hill and have the rig stay in first gear with the RPMs at about 2,500 before it shifts into second. And that's with giving it no gas. If I press on the gas, the RPMs continue to rise briefly and it then shifts into second gear.

I think you will find the gearbox improving once you start driving it normally with more throttle. Let us know how it goes over the next 1000 miles.
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  #22  
Old 11-15-2004, 10:48 AM
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Zeke013 Zeke013 is offline
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Will do - thanks again.
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2005, 10:15 AM
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=43923

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  #24  
Old 03-21-2005, 01:28 PM
rgnbull1227 rgnbull1227 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAirbags
There was a Road Test last month in I believe Car and Driver where it compared the Cayenne TT, 4.8is, G55, and the Volvo and the 4.8 was #1 in Braking, Slalom and Handling. It was a close 3rd to the TT in accelerating.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2005, 01:30 PM
sayegh_914 sayegh_914 is offline
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hey every1
how come it says 7.0 seconds to0o 100km/h isint 6 seconds
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