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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 08-02-2014, 11:13 AM
misterjim misterjim is offline
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So much for toyota legendary reliability...

I read a lot of threads complaining about bmw reliability and if you want a reliable car buy a boring toyota or lexus. Well I own 2 bmws (08 335 vert and a 99 328i) and 2 toyotas (91 mr2 turbo and a 09 venza).

My wife recently went on a long road trip with my 12 year old daughter and 2 of her friends. I told them to take the venza since it is the most reliable car. I even had it checked out by the dealer 2 days before she left.

Long story short, she called me 7 hours into a 9 hour trip and said she had to pull over on a busy highway outside of DC because the oil light went on. After having the car towed to the nearest dealer they found an oil cooler line had failed resulting in over $6500 worth of engine damage. It took several days to get parts and nearly 20 hours of labor to repair. The car is out of warranty so we were stuck with the bill.

Turns out this is a known problem with the oil cooler line (it has a rubber section between 2 metal sections that gives out with no warning). Despite the fact that hundreds of owners have had the same thing happen toyota has yet to issue a recall. All I can say is that my bmws have never left my family stranded on a dangerous multi-line highway. Very dissapointed in toyota

Last edited by misterjim; 08-02-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-02-2014, 02:43 PM
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Dude that is a total bummer and I totally agree with you - 2 least reliable cars I ever had were a 2006 Lexus GX470 and a 2009 Lexus RX350. The GX I had for 2 years, it went in limp mode about 10 times maybe more, Lexus took a year to find the issue and ultimately the part just permanently failed that was causing the limp and that is how they found it. Propshaft was replaced, both rear shocks replaced due to leaking and the electronic suspension just went crazy now and then and lost all dampening, can't remember everything else that went wrong but that was in 2 years of owning it.

RX350, power rear door broke, transfer case leaked and failed after 9k and I remember reading of many people on the RX350 forum with the oil line failure, people were proactively replacing the lines as toyota had an improved part available, but there was no formal recall and they just leave people hanging.

That was the last Toyota product I have ever owned and have owned 4 BMW's since then - all combined with fewer issues than the 2 Lexus trucks. I will never own a Toyota again (even if BMW builds them a Supra!)

Hope you sell it when it is fixed and no longer have to deal with it!
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  #3  
Old 08-02-2014, 03:13 PM
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Oh dear

Sprry to hear the problem
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  #4  
Old 08-02-2014, 03:56 PM
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A little over a month ago..... Thursday: my dog died .... Friday: I buried the dog ... Saturday morning (early): I drove wife and daughter to Newark airport for vacation. (I had volunteered to stay home while they went on vacation so I could take care of the 17 1/2 year old dog. The one who had just died.)

On the drive back from the airport the ABS warning light on the BMW came on -- it's the ABS pump ($$$$) but I don't know that ... Saturday morning (later) I made a service appointment for the BMW, but they wouldn't have any loaners available for a week

Still Saturday morning. Not wanting to drive the BMW with the big yellow ABS warning light on, I took my beater Volvo out to fill up the gas tank. I drove about 50 feet when an oil cooler fitting broke off, leaving me with little or no oil in the engine and a large mess on the street. However, when I noticed the red oil pressure light, I pulled over immediately and shut down the engine. I called AAA to flatbed the car to my indy's shop.

I was concerned that I had destroyed the engine but so far (knock-on-wood) I don't hear any rod knock or other unusual noises, nor is there any unusual amount of oil consumption. The total cost, I think, was roughly $1k for a new radiator (the oil cooler is integral with the radiator). This is radiator #3 for the car.

If it can happen to a Volvo or a Toyota it might even happen to a BMW.

I drove the communal company Corolla for the next week. It never skipped a beat. It's not nearly as much fun to drive as the BMW -- but that's not what it was designed for.

Sorry about your bad Toyota experience. Isn't the Venza motor the same one that's used in the Camry? Did you install a new engine or a used one?
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  #5  
Old 08-02-2014, 04:40 PM
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One anecdote is not a data set. Whether you like it or not, statistics don't lie. ****ty that you had a bad experience with a brand, but that can be said for anything. Looking at the raw data paints a much different picture. Hint, BMW is nowhere close to reliable, as a brand. I own a BMW, but I don't have any illusions as to the long term costs of that ownership.


Last edited by bad karma; 08-02-2014 at 04:41 PM.
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  #6  
Old 08-02-2014, 05:01 PM
misterjim misterjim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Shiftright View Post
A little over a month ago..... Thursday: my dog died .... Friday: I buried the dog ... Saturday morning (early): I drove wife and daughter to Newark airport for vacation. (I had volunteered to stay home while they went on vacation so I could take care of the 17 1/2 year old dog. The one who had just died.)

On the drive back from the airport the ABS warning light on the BMW came on -- it's the ABS pump ($$$$) but I don't know that ... Saturday morning (later) I made a service appointment for the BMW, but they wouldn't have any loaners available for a week

Still Saturday morning. Not wanting to drive the BMW with the big yellow ABS warning light on, I took my beater Volvo out to fill up the gas tank. I drove about 50 feet when an oil cooler fitting broke off, leaving me with little or no oil in the engine and a large mess on the street. However, when I noticed the red oil pressure light, I pulled over immediately and shut down the engine. I called AAA to flatbed the car to my indy's shop.

I was concerned that I had destroyed the engine but so far (knock-on-wood) I don't hear any rod knock or other unusual noises, nor is there any unusual amount of oil consumption. The total cost, I think, was roughly $1k for a new radiator (the oil cooler is integral with the radiator). This is radiator #3 for the car.

If it can happen to a Volvo or a Toyota it might even happen to a BMW.

I drove the communal company Corolla for the next week. It never skipped a beat. It's not nearly as much fun to drive as the BMW -- but that's not what it was designed for.

Sorry about your bad Toyota experience. Isn't the Venza motor the same one that's used in the Camry? Did you install a new engine or a used one?
It's toyotas 3.5 liter V6. It's used in a number of models including the Camry, highlander, and some lexus models.
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:11 PM
misterjim misterjim is offline
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Originally Posted by bad karma View Post
One anecdote is not a data set. Whether you like it or not, statistics don't lie. ****ty that you had a bad experience with a brand, but that can be said for anything. Looking at the raw data paints a much different picture. Hint, BMW is nowhere close to reliable, as a brand. I own a BMW, but I don't have any illusions as to the long term costs of that ownership.

For sure one data point doesn't make a trend. What is frustrating to me is that this is the result of poor engineering on a simple but critical part in an otherwise fairly well engineered engine.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:10 PM
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It's toyotas 3.5 liter V6. It's used in a number of models including the Camry, highlander, and some lexus models.
The 3.5 is know to have issues. thats why I avoided it when I bought a Toyota SUV. Not nearly as much power, but that's what the Bimmers are for. N4S
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  #9  
Old 08-03-2014, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad karma View Post
One anecdote is not a data set. Whether you like it or not, statistics don't lie. ****ty that you had a bad experience with a brand, but that can be said for anything. Looking at the raw data paints a much different picture. Hint, BMW is nowhere close to reliable, as a brand. I own a BMW, but I don't have any illusions as to the long term costs of that ownership.
Agreed. The experiences of thousands of drivers who report their ownership/repair experiences to Consumer Reports each year cannot be dismissed!

My wife's 2007 Avalon needed a $5000 automatic transmission at 72K miles, one month after she made the last payment! It needed expensive replacement (hundreds of dollars) of the center LED brake light display shortly before that! But across many Toyotas, they are 'more reliable' than average, BMW is only Average!

Last edited by wilt; 08-03-2014 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:49 PM
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On average Toyota is still ahead of BMW in terms of reliability
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:51 PM
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Hence why I tell you all, buy the car you want and love because you wouldn't mind maintaining it! There is no way I'd ever spend $5-6k maintaining anything else!


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  #12  
Old 08-03-2014, 05:55 PM
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OP, it's not the oil cooler line, it's the VVT-i oil line. Pretty much all Toyota 2GR-FE engines were affected by this. Coincidentally, the same engine in Lexus applications tended to get a quality braided METAL hose rather than the cheap rubber one for oil applications. Just one of MANY examples of cost cutting at the expense of quality across Toyota vehicles. I had a 2007 RAV4 V6 with this issue, although there was a TSB for it and I got it take care of ASAP. It borders on criminal if you have your 2009 Venza in a dealership to get checked out and they didn't perform this TSB, although maybe the warranty had run out already or the TSB no longer applied? Either way, this is a well known issue and very representative of Toyota's LAPSE in quality as of late.

There's a wealth of information on the issue here:

https://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/

This and many other examples of cost-cutting and quality lapses and just plain poor engineering and/or attention to detail from my RAV4 is what totally turned me off of Toyotas and Japanese vehicles in general. So sorry to hear that this happened to your wife while on a trip without you and the expense. It's just plain awful.

EDIT: Oh man, reading that site I do in fact see that there's ANOTHER "oil line" issue relating to the oil cooler on those cars, as you stated, so maybe it was indeed that issue and not the VVT-i oil line. Wow. Truly pathetic.
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  #13  
Old 08-03-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad karma View Post
One anecdote is not a data set. Whether you like it or not, statistics don't lie. ****ty that you had a bad experience with a brand, but that can be said for anything. Looking at the raw data paints a much different picture. Hint, BMW is nowhere close to reliable, as a brand. I own a BMW, but I don't have any illusions as to the long term costs of that ownership.

http://strumors.automobilemag.com/fi...3-911x1024.jpg
The very chart you posted shows that the better BMWs are just as good if not better than many Hondas and Toyotas, including the OP's 2009 Venza!!!! I'm a CR subscriber and am very familiar with this chart. My 2011 335i has easily been more reliable than my 2007 RAV4 V6, and so has our E70 X5d. Both of our Bimmers have been in the shop for non-scheduled issues including recalls far fewer times than my RAV4 was. That car was a complete pile of junk. Lost count of the recalls, needed a new transmission, the aforementioned oil hose issue that I caught before it blew, rear suspension recall/rebuild, power window switch recall, and on and on..... The stupid car even left me stranded in my driveway once due to just plain poor engineering, along with crappy dealer service. I should have just bought the 2007/2008 E60 5er that I had planned to rather than this piece of junk RAV4.

They don't make "bulletproof" Toyotas anymore. Too much cost pressure from the Koreans. They're still good yes, but there used to be a sea of difference between the typical Japanese car or Toyota and the Germans, and the American cars. Not so much anymore. Toyota has slipped, but everybody else has gotten a ton better. Our old 2002 Toyota Highlander that we still own is among the last of the "bulletproof" Toyotas before cost-cutting to compete with the Koreans became the priority. The only way to get one of those old-school bulletproof Toyotas anymore is to buy a Lexus where they put the quality good back in. Like a quality metal braided VVT-i oil hose rather than the pathetic junk rubber one.
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  #14  
Old 08-03-2014, 07:26 PM
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CALWATERBOY DUE CALWATERBOY DUE is offline
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Turns out this is a known problem with the oil cooler line (it has a rubber section between 2 metal sections that gives out with no warning). Despite the fact that hundreds of owners have had the same thing happen toyota has yet to issue a recall. All I can say is that my bmws have never left my family stranded on a dangerous multi-line highway. Very dissapointed in toyota

You should be disappointed in their control system. Loss of oil pressure, and it ran? No no no no!
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Old 08-03-2014, 07:31 PM
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That was the last Toyota product I have ever owned and have owned 4 BMW's since then - all combined with fewer issues than the 2 Lexus trucks. I will never own a Toyota again (even if BMW builds them a Supra!)!

Yeah I appreciate that....my last Toyota many dealers couldn't fix 'cause they couldn't figure out what was wrong....overheating. My MOTHER could work it out! But, see, it wasn't 'in the book.'

Honda I like, for reliability and dealer service. No lux mobiles yet they satisfy.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:46 PM
Nerdboss Nerdboss is online now
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I don't trust Toyota or Honda. My parents owned an Odyssey and that thing was a POS. It was their ownership experince that pushed me towards something German. I figured if I had to maintain something I might as well maintain something I want to drive.

As the Consumer reports chart shows, the 328i is ranked highly and is above average in reliabilty. If you want a reliable BMW just don't buy a 7 series and you should be good.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by misterjim View Post
What is frustrating to me is that this is the result of poor engineering on a simple but critical part in an otherwise fairly well engineered engine.
BMW has produced plenty of bad engineering. BMW seems to even have a senior engineering VP in charge of making you say, "WTF were they thinking when they designed that?????" Why else would they locate water-sensitive electronics at the bottom of the trunk? How many other cars do you need a YouTube video and a laptop computer to change the battery? And where is the oil dipstick and the spare tire?



The most emotionally engaging cars seem to be the ones that are a PITA to maintain.

Eurocars are an expensive and maybe even a stupid habit. But as bad habits go, at least they are cheaper than drugs and younger women.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nerdboss View Post
As the Consumer reports chart shows, the 328i is ranked highly and is above average in reliabilty.
Read carefully what year!

Looking at reliability data (April 2014) for BMW 325i/328i since 2002...
2002 Lower than average
2003 Much lower than average
2004 Lower than average
2005 Much lower than average
2006 Lower than average
2007 Average
2008 Average
2009 Better than Average
2010 Better than Average
2011 Average
2012 Lower than Average
2013 Average
OTOH, looking at the 2010 issue of the Consumer Reports annual, the 2003-2008 3 series was Much Better than Average in reliability in half the areas and Better the Average in the other half of the areas...so it indicates that about 7-8 years out, the cars start having lots of different things needing work that were previously reliable! My own experience with E36 and E46 points to 9-12 (averaging 12-15k miles per year) years out is the point of lots of work being needed (ignoring the BMW typical 5 year/60k mile water pump and thermostat). The E46 was far worse than the E36, and what I noticed were the many items with plastic content in the E46 engine compartment failing...plastics get brittle. Even the infamous E46 window regulators was PLASTICS! I don't look forward to the E90 experience as the even greater plastic content gets brittle.

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Old 08-04-2014, 08:27 AM
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All car companies have their "dirty little secret" badly engineered parts they don't want to repair. Some more than others.

Nowadays, I feel that cars are designed less for longevity and more for short term issues like power/economy numbers. It also seems car manufacturers and dealers are (less than ever) worried about making it right for their customers.

All this leads me to the conclusion to buy whatever car you want, maintain it as best as possible, and part ways with it when repair costs begin approaching car payments.


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Old 08-04-2014, 09:03 AM
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All car companies have their "dirty little secret" badly engineered parts they don't want to repair. Some more than others.

Nowadays, I feel that cars are designed less for longevity and more for short term issues like power/economy numbers. It also seems car manufacturers and dealers are (less than ever) worried about making it right for their customers.

All this leads me to the conclusion to buy whatever car you want, maintain it as best as possible, and part ways with it when repair costs begin approaching car payments.


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Completely agree with this. Look at the IMS bearing debacle with Porsches.

It's a good thing BMW offers such great lease terms because as time goes on, cars will become more and more disposable as their technical complexity continues to increase.

FWIW: My 2004 4Runner (V8 w/ 4WD) has never had any significant repairs over its life but my 335i certainly has...
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:50 PM
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I don't trust Toyota or Honda. My parents owned an Odyssey and that thing was a POS. It was their ownership experince that pushed me towards something German. I figured if I had to maintain something I might as well maintain something I want to drive.

As the Consumer reports chart shows, the 328i is ranked highly and is above average in reliabilty. If you want a reliable BMW just don't buy a 7 series and you should be good.

Gotta say, my new Odyssey is several ways delightful, not the least bein' Bluetooth op. Automatic and HiFi, finds my phone at at startup and plays where it left off. Set & forget.

Electronics pkg mildly cryptic but light years ahead of my 3!

Ride mostly but not completely sa-mooth; remarkable handling for a van. Still not a GL, but what is at half that price?
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY DUE View Post
Gotta say, my new Odyssey is several ways delightful, not the least bein' Bluetooth op. Automatic and HiFi, finds my phone at at startup and plays where it left off. Set & forget.

Electronics pkg mildly cryptic but light years ahead of my 3!

Ride mostly but not completely sa-mooth; remarkable handling for a van. Still not a GL, but what is at half that price?
I know those are nice rides when they are new and are stupid fast for a van. I just wasn't impressed with how well they hold up. Parts are not cheap on an Odyssey even if it is just a Honda.
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:03 PM
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I know those are nice rides when they are new and are stupid fast for a van. I just wasn't impressed with how well they hold up. Parts are not cheap on an Odyssey even if it is just a Honda.

I've done OK - still driving my 06, no trade-in on that puppy. Drives fine, no worries. 150k mi. Then again, just one guy.
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:17 PM
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I've done OK - still driving my 06, no trade-in on that puppy. Drives fine, no worries. 150k mi. Then again, just one guy.
This is an 03 but I imagine it would have been improved quite a bit with the newer model. They drove a GM sedan with the 3800 v6 for 20 years with nothing more than an alternator, they still have the car and it still runs. I'm more impressed with the GM product.
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Old 08-05-2014, 02:53 AM
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Yes we all know Toyota is the king of reliability according to the statistics presented in CR. Amazing how sludge gate with their 4 calendar engines and of course the lets blame it on the mats sudden acceleration syndrome are ok. Statistics by numbers easily overshadow issues. Toyota sells over 400,000+ Camry's a year alone compared to BMW selling just over 100,000. If 50,000 of each model breakdown and are reported to consumer reports along with the balance having a positive report, BMW would have a 50% reliably record and Toyota would be about 87%! Again this is only in a perfect reporting world, but when someone spends 60k verses 30k and they both break down who is more likely to complain to CR!
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2011 328xi. Space Grey, Beige Dakota Leather, Premium pkg., Value pkg., NAV, SAT, Heated SW, Steptronic,
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