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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:11 AM
TD
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Reading all of this E90 talk, it's clear two camps are emerging...

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:19 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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The Coupe will be around for another year or so.

But from the E21 and 2002 group, your car is miles away.

Other than that, I agree.
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:25 AM
vehigal vehigal is offline
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As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.

Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vehigal
As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
Then, of course, individuals will have their own definition of "forbiddingly" .
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:38 AM
TD
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Originally Posted by vehigal
As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
Let's not debate these topics in this thread (there are others already discussing the relative merits of each). But, since you bring it up, there is a lot more to "driving dynamics", IMO, than skidpad numbers or even 'Ring times. There's "feel". And just like "feel" was one of the key points of contention between the E36 and E46 camps, I expect it to once again arise in the discussions between E46 and E90 camps.

Having not driven an E90, I cannot say for sure where I stand on this. But if the E60 5-series is any indicator, I suspect the E46 to E90 comparison is going to be a lot like the E36 to E46 comparison.
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  #7  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:38 AM
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Technic Technic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JST
Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.
Agreed...
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  #8  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:40 AM
TD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JST
Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.
That last part is essentially my point. A "here we go again" of sorts. This time I'm not an owner of either. So I can just watch, amused.

EDIT- And your first part isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Last edited by TD; 01-18-2005 at 11:43 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:45 AM
LarryN LarryN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vehigal
As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
I agree on the success part, but we'll have to wait and see on the "Improved driving dynamics". I have one on order, and I certainly hope it does.

Of the "main 3" the redesigned A4, new C-Class, and E90, I think it has a pretty good shot at being a very good seller.

I think TD is correct. This is the exact same discussion as was on Roadfly in 98 and 99. Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters.
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryN
I agree on the success part, but we'll have to wait and see on the "Improved driving dynamics". I have one on order, and I certainly hope it does.

Of the "main 3" the redesigned A4, new C-Class, and E90, I think it has a pretty good shot at being a very good seller.

I think TD is correct. This is the exact same discussion as was on Roadfly in 98 and 99. Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters.
IIRC, you were in the same camp as me back then- very anti-E46 and very pro-E36. Granted I may be confusing you with someone else.

Then I went and bought an E46. What was I thinking?
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  #11  
Old 01-18-2005, 11:59 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff
The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department.
This statement is not correct, but we can discuss it in another thread not to hijack this one. Driving dynamic is not equally 'feel'. Everyone has a different definition of 'feel', driving dynamics, on the other hand, is on the paper and defined by numbers.
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  #12  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:04 PM
LarryN LarryN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
IIRC, you were in the same camp as me back then- very anti-E46 and very pro-E36. Granted I may be confusing you with someone else.

Then I went and bought an E46. What was I thinking?
Probably not me. I was on the fence (a waiter), and traded in my e36 for a May '99 build 323i (last week of production for 99's).

I like my 02 330i now, and am off-lease in May, but extending for a month to do an ED 330i on May 27th. We were going over anyway, and it made total sense to get the e90, since I was going there anyway, I'm going off lease then, and I save 2.5 weeks of rental car fees... Now I just hope it's not a crappy handling car, as I'm an avid autocrosser, and do pretty well with the CCA club every year. (and the look is kinda growing on me.. (though it did take some getting used to).

There were lots of people who hated the e46 back then.
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ff
We're all allowed one terrible mistake. I made mine with the MINI last summer.

BTW, did you get one of the 330's with the lightened steering?
Yes.

Then it was one of the first to get the steering retrofit, which was significantly heavier but still completely lacked any feel.
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  #14  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryN
Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters.
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  #15  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ff
How do we know that? The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department. What's to say that the 3 series will be any different?
And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.
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  #16  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ff
How do we know that? The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department. What's to say that the 3 series will be any different?
how much seat time have you spent in an E38 and and E65, and an E39 and an E60?
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  #17  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jetstream23
And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.


facelifts are completely common these days to refresh the model after 3-4 years
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  #18  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.

Same sort of arguments that are made everytime a major update to a computer OS is released (Any Mac OS 9x users here still resisting OS X? )
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  #19  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:15 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Originally Posted by atyclb


facelifts are completely common these days to refresh the model after 3-4 years
Close your eyes, take a deep breath and count till 10.



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  #20  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by atyclb
how much seat time have you spent in an E38 and and E65, and an E39 and an E60?
Anyone who thinks the E65 is a worse drive than the E38 is an idiot. Plain and simple.
The E60 Sport (the non-sport IS a step backwards) is also a substantial step forward, but not the quantum leap the E65 is.
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  #21  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jetstream23
And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.
Guess that makes the E46 a design disaster as well, since they issed a facelift for that...and the E39....
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  #22  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jetstream23
And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.
You do know the E46 got a facelift, right?
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  #23  
Old 01-18-2005, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TD
Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.
This would be me. I'm happy to have my e46, and really love this car. The e90 might turn out to be better, might not. I don't really care right now. Next time I'm thinking about a new car, I'll start caring.

By the way, I'd like to add that I think the e36 is a great car, as is the e30, as is... My point being that when a new generation is released, it doesn't say anything one way or the other about the older model. They each have their merits.
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  #24  
Old 01-18-2005, 01:00 PM
NewBmwGuy NewBmwGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.
Well, I won't be playing that game. I love my E46, and I look forward to checking out the E90. But I don't see myself getting out of my E46 and into an E90 anytime soon. I do prefer the look of my E46 over the E90, but tastes change over time, so we'll see. Right now I am really happy with my ride. I am sure owners of the E90 will be happy with their ride. That is the way it should be. Listen to Rodney King when he speaks? Can't we just all get along?
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  #25  
Old 01-18-2005, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
That last part is essentially my point. A "here we go again" of sorts. This time I'm not an owner of either. So I can just watch, amused.

EDIT- And your first part isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Exactly. I'm not ready to give the car a ringing endorsement--I think that there are some areas of clear improvement, and some areas where they've taken a step back (e.g., the interior). At the same time, I've been thinking since I saw the E65 and E60 that the E90 would be out of the question ugly, and since it isn't, I am pleasantly surprised.

Not pleasantly enough surprised to have put in an order.

Yet.
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