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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 02-08-2005, 06:46 AM
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There WILL be an E90 M3 sedan!!!

February Roundel states on page 30 that:

The E90 M3 coupe is scheduled to debut in late 2006 with a convertible version AND A FOUR DOOR SEDAN (after a ten-year absence) to follow along with a 440-horsepower CSL version.

So, good news now I just wonder exactly when and if it will be a manual.
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greginaz1
February Roundel states
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  #3  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by atyclb
Really. Roundel doesn't get much right in predicting future models.
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2005, 09:07 AM
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They did a pretty good job back in '97

http://www.bmwcca.org/Roundel/1997/0997oth.htm
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  #5  
Old 02-08-2005, 09:48 AM
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Yeah, but what have they predicted so well lately?
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  #6  
Old 02-08-2005, 10:57 AM
adc adc is offline
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There were reasons for "no-E46 M3-sedan"

According to BMW talk around when the E46 came out, they could not do an M3 sedan because they would have had to completely re-engineer the rear doors, to allow for the wheelarch bulges (the E46 M3 has a wider rear track, tires etc. to cope with the extra power, but the E36 had identical bodies to the non-M versions).

I think they may have a similar issue with the E90:
http://totalcar.index.hu/images/test...305bem_035.jpg

There is not enough room left between the trailing edge of the rear door and the wheel opening to accomodate a large bulge.

Unless of course they allowed for that re-engineer from the beginning and they're hoping to sell many M3 sedans to make it worthwhile. Actually if memory serves right, in 97 and 98 they sold as many or more sedans as coupes. So they could be onto something.

If they come out with a sedan (and there is no 330i turbo sedan as rumored), I'll buy one.

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  #7  
Old 02-08-2005, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc
According to BMW talk around when the E46 came out, they could not do an M3 sedan because they would have had to completely re-engineer the rear doors, to allow for the wheelarch bulges (the E46 M3 has a wider rear track, tires etc. to cope with the extra power, but the E36 had identical bodies to the non-M versions).

I think they may have a similar issue with the E90:
http://totalcar.index.hu/images/test...305bem_035.jpg

There is not enough room left between the trailing edge of the rear door and the wheel opening to accomodate a large bulge.

Unless of course they allowed for that re-engineer from the beginning and they're hoping to sell many M3 sedans to make it worthwhile. Actually if memory serves right, in 97 and 98 they sold as many or more sedans as coupes. So they could be onto something.

If they come out with a sedan (and there is no 330i turbo sedan as rumored), I'll buy one.

adc
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Is there any significant difference in the contact patch of an e46 330i w/18 in wheels and an e46 M3 w/18s? I think the sole reason why they didn't produce a 4 door e46 M3 was based on pure economics.
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  #8  
Old 02-08-2005, 01:09 PM
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Hasn't there been other auto magazines that have mentioned this?
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  #9  
Old 02-08-2005, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh1850
Is there any significant difference in the contact patch of an e46 330i w/18 in wheels and an e46 M3 w/18s? I think the sole reason why they didn't produce a 4 door e46 M3 was based on pure economics.
Shouldn't be. A 255 width tire is the same width regardless if it is on an M3 or 330i/Ci.

However, the M3 has wider wheels than any 330i/Ci, however and I'm pretty certain the M3 has a somewhat wider track than non-M E46s. This would explain the need for flared arches.
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  #10  
Old 02-08-2005, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by greginaz1
February Roundel states on page 30 that:

The E90 M3 coupe is scheduled to debut in late 2006 with a convertible version AND A FOUR DOOR SEDAN (after a ten-year absence) to follow along with a 440-horsepower CSL version.

So, good news now I just wonder exactly when and if it will be a manual.
"after a ten year absence"?!?!?!

Um, the E36 M3 sedan was produced through early/mid 1998. At most, that makes it an 8.5 year absence if a new one shows up in late 2006.

Even if you just talk model years, the E36 M3 sedan was produced through model year 1998. A car that starts arriving in late 2006 would almost certainly be a 2007. That's only 9 model years.

Not to mention, if we do get an M3 sedan, it will almost certainly be wankermatic-only, just like the coupe.
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2005, 05:29 PM
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Actually, the E36 M3 sedan was produced up until model year 1999. Didn't they start with 1997 model year for the 4-door? I think if we get a 2006 M3 sedan, then it would be 9 years between introductions of 4-door M3s?

Anyways, why do you think the M3 will be slushbox-only? I haven't seen anything anywhere that would indicate it to be so. Of course, if they're going to just lop off V10 in the M5 to make the M3's V8, then they might have the same physical issues that prevented them from offering a manual E60 M5...
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2005, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cantona7
Actually, the E36 M3 sedan was produced up until model year 1999. Didn't they start with 1997 model year for the 4-door? I think if we get a 2006 M3 sedan, then it would be 9 years between introductions of 4-door M3s?

Anyways, why do you think the M3 will be slushbox-only? I haven't seen anything anywhere that would indicate it to be so. Of course, if they're going to just lop off V10 in the M5 to make the M3's V8, then they might have the same physical issues that prevented them from offering a manual E60 M5...
A- There was no 1999 M3 sedan. Trust me. Production stopped around May of 1998 when the factory went to switch over to E46 sedan production.

B- I never said slushbox-only. I think it's going to be SMG-only, just like the coupe and convertible. No stick. But not a torque-converter-equipped automatic either.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2005, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD

Not to mention, if we do get an M3 sedan, it will almost certainly be wankermatic-only, just like the coupe.
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2005, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hugh1850
I think the sole reason why they didn't produce a 4 door e46 M3 was based on pure economics.
If by this you mean concern of cannibalizing E39 M5 sales, then I would agree. Driving/ride differences aside, the E46 M3 coupe is already capable of the same 4.8sec 0-60 and electronically limited 155mph top speed but at a $18-20k savings over the M5. One could assume the sedan version would have nearly the same performance. When the E39 M5 came out it was a quantum leap in performance over the E36 M3 coupe/sedan.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2005, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
A- There was no 1999 M3 sedan. Trust me. Production stopped around May of 1998 when the factory went to switch over to E46 sedan production.

B- I never said slushbox-only. I think it's going to be SMG-only, just like the coupe and convertible. No stick. But not a torque-converter-equipped automatic either.
Yup, 98 was the last M3 sedan...so if the E90 M3 sedan happens maybe it will be a 2008 model?...and lastly, I'm not so sure I would buy it if SMG was offered over a real manual.
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  #16  
Old 02-08-2005, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD
A- There was no 1999 M3 sedan. Trust me. Production stopped around May of 1998 when the factory went to switch over to E46 sedan production.

B- I never said slushbox-only. I think it's going to be SMG-only, just like the coupe and convertible. No stick. But not a torque-converter-equipped automatic either.
Ah...I see. I just thought that 1998 production went on long enough to turn out the 1999 model year sedans. At any rate, given the outcry over the lack of a traditional manual transmission for the M5--which BMW has admitted to be 'surprising' for this market--I think we stand a good chance of getting a regular old stick for the E90 M3.
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2005, 12:09 AM
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M3 is a coupe, get used to it.

The only reason the E36 M3 sedan sold well here was because it could be ordered with a slushbox for all the "auto enthusiasts" who has to drive in that terrible traffic.

I hope that BMWAG doesn't waste $$ developing something that won't sell.

M cars have a nice 7 speed SMG box designed specifically for it, why people want a 6 speed box not specifically designed for it is beyond me.

New BMW clutches suck anyway, with CDV and DBW, it takes no skill to operate a stick BMW anymore (the E36 M3 clutch takes some skill to master), so what why get an inferior tranny that doesn't perform as well as the SMG box?
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2005, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsbrown
If by this you mean concern of cannibalizing E39 M5 sales, then I would agree. Driving/ride differences aside, the E46 M3 coupe is already capable of the same 4.8sec 0-60 and electronically limited 155mph top speed but at a $18-20k savings over the M5. One could assume the sedan version would have nearly the same performance. When the E39 M5 came out it was a quantum leap in performance over the E36 M3 coupe/sedan.
This may have been the case in the US, with its 240 bhp M3, but the performance of the regular E36 M3 was nearly as potent as the M5's, particularly given its fighting weight in European trim (identical power/weight ratios). As it happens, production schedules of the base car meant there would never have been a conflict between the E36 M3 sedan (which despite its obvious appeal did not sell so well outside the US) and the E39 M5 sedan. Certainly an M3 E46 sedan would have eaten into sales of the E39 M5; but if BMW would have made the same margin or better on a 40k E46 M3 sedan than a 52k E39 M5, then they would probably have built one. Cannibalising is good if public switches its purchasing to a car which earns BMW a higher margin (assuming no loss of goodwill).
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2005, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
M3 is a coupe, get used to it.

The only reason the E36 M3 sedan sold well here was because it could be ordered with a slushbox for all the "auto enthusiasts" who has to drive in that terrible traffic.

I hope that BMWAG doesn't waste $$ developing something that won't sell.

If there had been an E46 M3 sedan available when I bought my 330i, I probably would have gotten the M instead. With a stick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
M cars have a nice 7 speed SMG box designed specifically for it, why people want a 6 speed box not specifically designed for it is beyond me.

New BMW clutches suck anyway, with CDV and DBW, it takes no skill to operate a stick BMW anymore (the E36 M3 clutch takes some skill to master), so what why get an inferior tranny that doesn't perform as well as the SMG box?
Because a stick/clutch combo, even if "inferior," is still more fun and engaging than an atari tranny?
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Stuka
New BMW clutches suck anyway, with CDV and DBW, it takes no skill to operate a stick BMW anymore (the E36 M3 clutch takes some skill to master).......

What?!? CDV and DBW make the current BMW clutches harder to drive IMO.
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  #21  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:49 AM
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Out of curiousity, how much 'more' would it be to theoretically develop a 4dr M3? The comments of 'wider track' in the rear is an easy design fix with minimal fabrication requirement to stamp the panel. The interior dimmensions would be identical, and 2drs are added. Honestly, not that big of a money drain.

Now, a more likely scenario would be BMW underestimated the market for a 4d M 3series, especially with aging baby boomer car enthusiasts, and a relatively more practical minded younger generation wanting the convenience of 4drs.

Looking at ZHP 330i sales numbers is any indication, as well as Mercedes and Audi offering their hot-rodded 3 series fighters in 4dr trim, it seems the BMW needs a 4dr M version of the E90 to keep customers in the showroom and to offer a comparable product.

Well, how about the M5 then? won't a 4dr M3 E90 hurt the E60 M5 sales? No... they are one, different beasts with respect to size and mission and the likely pricing structure that BMW would implement would seperate them by a comfortable $20-25k.

Hopefully, knowing the M3 would cater to 'hard-core' enthusiasts of less means and younger age, BMW will offer a 6/7 MT, which honestly is not needed in an M5 since again, the consumers able to buy the M5 in general would be happy with 7sp SMG and can afford a full time track car. Now the M6 probably should be offered with a MT, but that's a different discussion entirely.

Now, the other real question is, will the U.S. get the CSL version this time? Depends I think on how well the E90 M3 spanks the B6 RS4...

Let the battle begin.
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaz
Because a stick/clutch combo, even if "inferior," is still more fun and engaging than an atari tranny?
Yes yes yes. It may not make you faster around a track, but it surely is way more fun. What I don't understand is why people who spend $50k to have FUN in a car of this caliber would prefer SMG to stick (if they're not racing that is).

It took a very small amount of effort to turn the "inferior" E46 clutch into a "superior" one (CDV removal and clutch stop). Now it's true it takes a little less skill to master than the E36 M3 with it's wobbling clutch pedal , but still fun nonetheless.

And to make an argument for the SMG as well, it's still better than the tiptronic (!) that Porsche (!) offers in the 911 Turbo (!). Let's pray THAT never finds it's way into an M car...

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  #23  
Old 02-10-2005, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc
It took a very small amount of effort to turn the "inferior" E46 clutch into a "superior" one (CDV removal and clutch stop). Now it's true it takes a little less skill to master than the E36 M3 with it's wobbling clutch pedal , but still fun nonetheless.
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I had both. 330ci and E36 M3. I will take my "wobbling clutch pedal" in the E36 ANY day over that crap in the 330!!
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  #24  
Old 02-10-2005, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD330ci
I had both. 330ci and E36 M3. I will take my "wobbling clutch pedal" in the E36 ANY day over that crap in the 330!!
In my mind, the last stick worth getting in the BMW family was the E36 M3 and the M coupe.

Everything else since then has been crap, which is why I don't understand the preference of a crappy clutch/stick system over a nice SMG that is better than the system from Ferrari.

And yes, PAG should be ashamed of themselves for catering to poseurs by sticking a slushbox in the Turbo for the first time.
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  #25  
Old 02-10-2005, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TD330ci
I had both. 330ci and E36 M3. I will take my "wobbling clutch pedal" in the E36 ANY day over that crap in the 330!!
Yes, I've had both as well. I don't know what kind of E46 you've had - but did you do the 2 mods I describe in my post? (clutch stop and CDV removal).

With these two mods the clutch in my 03 ZHP is very similar to the one in the M3. The E36 M3 has a slightly heavier feel which I am not sure whether to attribute to mileage (over 50k mi when I sold it) or design considerations. In any case, I think the extra effort required by the M3 clutch is what makes you handle it more carefully - but otherwise I did not get the impression that is was markedly better.

(BTW, can you say "handle" when talking about foot movements? )

But the feel is very similar. And the 6sp in the ZHP is miles better than the 5sp in the E36 M3.



YMMV.

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