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E46 (1999 - 2006)
The fourth generation 3 Series (E46 chassis) was introduced in 1999 and set the standard for engineering and performance during it's years of production including being named to Car & Driver's 10 best list every one of those years! ! -- View the E46 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-10-2005, 09:13 AM
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shizat63 shizat63 is offline
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E90 vs. ZHP at the track

Stock E90 330i vs. stock 330i ZHP- autocross or Neurburgring, who would take it and by how much?

My money would be on the E90 at Nurburgring b/c of the HP advantage, but at an autocross I would give it to the ZHP.
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2005, 10:59 AM
MJTSUB MJTSUB is offline
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Probably the ZHP in autocross since its just slightly lighter, geared lower (numerically higher) and has a shorter wheelbase.

The open track who knows. The e90 definetly has a HP advantage but who knows.
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2005, 11:01 AM
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The ZHP, cause, well, it kicks butt.
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  #4  
Old 03-10-2005, 11:03 AM
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The E90 330 has a 3.15 rear diff, so it'll easily overpower the ZHP.

Presumably, like every revision of the 3 series, it will also outperform its predecessor.
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  #5  
Old 03-10-2005, 11:29 AM
adc adc is offline
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The ZHP, of course

The ZHP is a track king as well, not just autocross. Last time I was at Summit Point I was passing Nick325xiT in his E46 M3 with ease, lap after lap. Just ask him...

Oh no, wait, it was the other way around!!!

I too have the feeling the E90 will be faster, in all categories...

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  #6  
Old 03-10-2005, 01:07 PM
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As others have said, i'm sure BMW designed the E90 to run the Ring faster. Look at the 130i, it's runs like a scalded rabbit out there.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:23 PM
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FWIW, Car & Driver got the exact same 0-60 and 1/4 mile times out of the E90 330 in Spain as they did the ZHP. 5.6 & 14.3, respectively.
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  #8  
Old 03-10-2005, 02:18 PM
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As others noted - history would make me put money on the e90, as it's the new generation. As for FEEL - I'll take the e46 ZHP, with none of that active steering disconnect.

The good news is that there is apparently going to be a 330 wagon brought stateside in the e90 family. So if BMW In-duh-vidual gets a crack at an e90 Performance Package, and applies it to the wagon.... Well, I'll be as happy as a pig in sh!t.
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2005, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisL
FWIW, Car & Driver got the exact same 0-60 and 1/4 mile times out of the E90 330 in Spain as they did the ZHP. 5.6 & 14.3, respectively.
Did it have run flats?

Did they launch on a similar surface?

What was the temperature?

Same driver?

If it weighs more, it'll likely get substantially faster as speeds go up.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2005, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Did it have run flats?

Did they launch on a similar surface?

What was the temperature?

Same driver?

If it weighs more, it'll likely get substantially faster as speeds go up.
run flats, yes and they say the E90 times were done on "a surface with poor grip".

Driver not an issue assuming both were C&D drivers of high caliber, and C&D corrects for temp, air density, etc.
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  #11  
Old 03-11-2005, 07:15 AM
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The new cars always perform better. 0-60 and 1/4 miles times are not a great predictor at all on how they will do at the track. I'll put my money on the E90, all else equal. If only because of the 25% better structural rigidity...
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  #12  
Old 03-11-2005, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwsqbm
run flats, yes and they say the E90 times were done on "a surface with poor grip".

Driver not an issue assuming both were C&D drivers of high caliber, and C&D corrects for temp, air density, etc.
So the launch sucked.

and the driver is absolutely an issue, unless we're talking about a fairly professional drag racer. Consistency on launches requires a LOT of skill.
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  #13  
Old 03-11-2005, 11:54 AM
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One thing I found interesting was the 0-60 specs that BMW has published. Of course, I know there's more to life than 0-60 times, and with manuals that number can vary quite a bit based on conditions. Still, I've seen them say the E90 330 will get to 60 in about six seconds (can't recall if I've seen an exact number or simply an estimate), and of course their literature says the ZHP will do 0-60 in 5.9. Seems like if there was a significant difference, they would be quicker to point that out. Of course, that's probably a big point right there -- on simple measures like this, there *won't* be a huge difference
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  #14  
Old 03-11-2005, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizat63
Stock E90 330i vs. stock 330i ZHP- autocross or Neurburgring, who would take it and by how much?

My money would be on the E90 at Nurburgring b/c of the HP advantage, but at an autocross I would give it to the ZHP.
I would guess that the E46 ZHP would be faster around "the Ring" compared to the standard E90. The places where HP help you is in the long straights, but since the cars are limited to the same top speed (asumption of 135ish), the extra HP is not that much of an advantage. Besides that, the ZHP handles the fast twisty section much better than the standard suspension. The Ring is all about what car can remain the smoothest and maintain the highest speed, not who has the most HP. The ZHP suspension is tuned very well and remains very flat and stable near the limit. This is a trait that makes the ZHP very easy to drive fast on the Ring. I assume the E90 standard suspension will have a very similar flavor as the E46 standard suspension. Now std to std comparison, I'd put money on the E90!
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blm
One thing I found interesting was the 0-60 specs that BMW has published. Of course, I know there's more to life than 0-60 times, and with manuals that number can vary quite a bit based on conditions. Still, I've seen them say the E90 330 will get to 60 in about six seconds (can't recall if I've seen an exact number or simply an estimate), and of course their literature says the ZHP will do 0-60 in 5.9. Seems like if there was a significant difference, they would be quicker to point that out. Of course, that's probably a big point right there -- on simple measures like this, there *won't* be a huge difference
There's a lot of marketing that goes into these 0-60 numbers - don't pay too much attention to them They wouldn't want to show that the ZHP is as fast as the E36 M3.
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  #16  
Old 03-11-2005, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Engineer
I would guess that the E46 ZHP would be faster around "the Ring" compared to the standard E90. The places where HP help you is in the long straights, but since the cars are limited to the same top speed (asumption of 135ish), the extra HP is not that much of an advantage. Besides that, the ZHP handles the fast twisty section much better than the standard suspension. The Ring is all about what car can remain the smoothest and maintain the highest speed, not who has the most HP. The ZHP suspension is tuned very well and remains very flat and stable near the limit. This is a trait that makes the ZHP very easy to drive fast on the Ring. I assume the E90 standard suspension will have a very similar flavor as the E46 standard suspension. Now std to std comparison, I'd put money on the E90!
You want to guess which car is faster around the 'Ring, E46 M3 or E63 645Ci?

Let me give you a hint: The 645Ci has less HP (325 v. 333), weighs more (by about 200 lbs I think), don't have the vaunted "///M" suspension.

Let me give you another hint. It wasn't the M3.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
You want to guess which car is faster around the 'Ring, E46 M3 or E63 645Ci?

Let me give you a hint: The 645Ci has less HP (325 v. 333), weighs more (by about 200 lbs I think), don't have the vaunted "///M" suspension.

Let me give you another hint. It wasn't the M3.

What??? The 645Ci is faster then the E46 M3 at Nurburgring?
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  #18  
Old 03-11-2005, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderato
What??? The 645Ci is faster then the E46 M3 at Nurburgring?
Is that so shocking?

All E46es have **** suspension setups from the factory.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahO
The good news is that there is apparently going to be a 330 wagon brought stateside in the e90 family.
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:17 PM
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I would have to say that the ZHP would win hands down. Superiority in all things ZHP!!! I mean, after all, this IS a ZHP Forum right???

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Old 03-11-2005, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderato
What??? The 645Ci is faster then the E46 M3 at Nurburgring?
Both of them lapped the 'Ring at 8 minutes, 19 seconds.
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  #22  
Old 03-12-2005, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brave1heart
There's a lot of marketing that goes into these 0-60 numbers

Oh, I know. That's why I was surprised they didn't market up the E90 a bit more!
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Is that so shocking?

All E46es have **** suspension setups from the factory.
Yeah it's shocking! I would've bet money that the E46 M3 would've been faster and more nimble then the 645Ci. In a straight line race I could see how it would be close, but at Nurburgring? Is the stock suspension on the 645Ci really that much better then the M3? Is that due to the active sway bar? Also, the 645Ci has to weigh more then the M3 right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Both of them lapped the 'Ring at 8 minutes, 19 seconds.
What about the 545i, is that about the same as the 645Ci & M3?
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnygraphic
I would have to say that the ZHP would win hands down. Superiority in all things ZHP!!! I mean, after all, this IS a ZHP Forum right???

Johnny
When is BMW going to make a ZHP badge accessory? I want one for my 325i.
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Old 03-12-2005, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderato
Yeah it's shocking! I would've bet money that the E46 M3 would've been faster and more nimble then the 645Ci. In a straight line race I could see how it would be close, but at Nurburgring? Is the stock suspension on the 645Ci really that much better then the M3? Is that due to the active sway bar? Also, the 645Ci has to weigh more then the M3 right?

What about the 545i, is that about the same as the 645Ci & M3?
1) You can't make up for torque. The 645Ci has a ~70 #ft torque advantage if I'm not mistaken.

2) You'll be very surprised what active roll stabilization can do. The roll bars on the 645Ci can vary from completely de-coupled to STIFFER than that of an M3. What that allows you to do on the track is keep tires on the tarmac AT ALL TIMES. Remember, stiff sways don't always equal to better times around the track, when your suspension is too stiff you wind up lifting a tire in a tight corner and you lose more traction. I rode in a 745i with sports package with a seasoned instructor driving at Fontucky, and despite the weight he was chasing down various A and B students in their E46 M3s.

3) The 645Ci is only marginally heavier than the E46 M3.

Don't have the times for the 545i but it should be close.
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