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  #1  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:26 PM
neenerton806 neenerton806 is offline
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Snow handling

I have a 2007 328xi and I'm wondering how they handle in the snow?


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  #2  
Old 01-10-2017, 03:17 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Originally Posted by neenerton806 View Post
I have a 2007 328xi and I'm wondering how they handle in the snow?
There have been many many threads on this subject; you should SEARCH.

Short story: handle fine. Best with snow tires (like any car.)
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:40 PM
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2009 335xi with dedicated snows was fine. You'll find BMW's have a tendency to tramline in slush ruts. Get good tires and remember to keep driving the car. Smooth control inputs with appropriate throttle control works well.

That being said, best car I ever drove in the snow was my 2004 Passat 4mo. Had to be the narrower tires. The 335xi was quite good, as is my M235xi.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:36 PM
neenerton806 neenerton806 is offline
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
2009 335xi with dedicated snows was fine. You'll find BMW's have a tendency to tramline in slush ruts. Get good tires and remember to keep driving the car. Smooth control inputs with appropriate throttle control works well.

That being said, best car I ever drove in the snow was my 2004 Passat 4mo. Had to be the narrower tires. The 335xi was quite good, as is my M235xi.


I have almost new Bridgestone rft all terrain tires. Iv driven in the snow before just in a truck so just wondering how it will be


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Old 01-11-2017, 05:58 AM
drdocument drdocument is offline
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Originally Posted by neenerton806 View Post
I have almost new Bridgestone rft all terrain tires. Iv driven in the snow before just in a truck so just wondering how it will be


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My '09 335XI with Michelin all-season run-flats is doing okay, even on un-plowed side streets.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by neenerton806 View Post
I have a 2007 328xi and I'm wondering how they handle in the snow?Bimmerfest mobile app
Your snow performance will be greatly dependent upon those four small patches of rubber, not the vehicle itself. Also, unless you are planning on purposely driving in snow, snow is only one factor of winter driving. The main concern should be temperature and the impact temperature has on the rubber. Winter tires start remain more pliable as the temp decreases than summer and all season tires (7C/45F is the accepted cross over point).


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I have almost new Bridgestone rft all terrain tires. Iv driven in the snow before just in a truck so just wondering how it will be Bimmerfest mobile app
"all terrain tires" on your 328xi or on your truck? Or do you mean all season tires?
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:40 AM
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My 330xi is similar to your car. It has been driven without problems in a serious snow, since: (a) is has reasonable winter tires, (b) the bottom clearance of an x-drive cari a bit higher than on an "i" car which allows it to get through deeper snow. Any car, in snow, will drive better on a winter rubber compound, just as imtim says.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
Your snow performance will be greatly dependent upon those four small patches of rubber, not the vehicle itself. Also, unless you are planning on purposely driving in snow, snow is only one factor of winter driving. The main concern should be temperature and the impact temperature has on the rubber. Winter tires start remain more pliable as the temp decreases than summer and all season tires (7C/45F is the accepted cross over point).
+1 . Well said.

OP, please do not get offended with what follows. As a matter of fact, I more than once publicly said on these forums that I have no driving talent and that I learn how to drive better every day.

Snow/winter tires should be on your car in snow regardless of which wheels are powered. But all of that will not matter if you don't listen to Zooks. If you do not know how to drive in snow and behave like you do, it will not end well.

OT ... Just check recent commercials for AWD Kia and something else, can't remember. FLYING on narrow, snow filled mountain road, message being "All you need to be safe is big honking SUV with AWD". It isn't. Deadly message.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:21 AM
drdocument drdocument is offline
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Agree with both Zooks (darn auto-correct) and Mark K.
Should add that all my driving is in the city, where streets are mostly plowed within reasonable time, and temps usually in teens or 20s, very rarely below zero F.

If I went farther I would get a set of winter tires and wheels.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:50 PM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Originally Posted by drdocument View Post
Agree with both Books and Mark K.
Should add that all my driving is in the city, where streets are mostly plowed within reasonable time, and temps usually in teens or 20s, very rarely below zero F.

If I went farther I would get a set of winter tires and wheels.
Considering most accidents occur within 10 miles of one's residence, the notion of only getting winter tires if you only drove farther is not sound; moreover, the worst assumption on commentary about winter tires is the predominant focus about performance in snow. Snow is only one variable during the winter time. As you noted, most people are not going to be driving or trying to plow through plush piles of snow on the street. Most people will be driving on plowed roads. Even in areas that get lots of snow, they still plow. If you are in areas where they don't plow to asphalt, you still are not talking about driving in plush piles of snow, but in compact, hardened snow/ice.

Winter tires are designed for colder temps. Don't let all the talk about and focus on snow performance skew your thinking. The below zero F is not the correct benchmark. 7C or 45F is the accepted cross over point where winter tires start to out perform all season tires which start to lose traction capability. If the temps in your area are in the teens and 20s winter tires will still provide significant increase in traction where all season suffer from traction loss. Even if you get rain in the intervening temps below 45F, winter tires in general will provide better traction than all season.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:34 PM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
Winter tires are designed for colder temps. Don't let all the talk about and focus on snow performance skew your thinking. The below zero F is not the correct benchmark. 7C or 45F is the accepted cross over point where winter tires start to out perform all season tires which start to lose traction capability. If the temps in your area are in the teens and 20s winter tires will still provide significant increase in traction where all season suffer from traction loss. Even if you get rain in the intervening temps below 45F, winter tires in general will provide better traction than all season.
Well, the OP did specifically ask about performance in snow, so I think that may be why the discussion went towards that.

That being said, I think you're a bit off the mark about the all-season tires. The 45F/7C crossover point is typically considered to be where dedicated summer tires lose the ability to perform in most conditions, as the tire compound becomes quite hard.

All-season tires perform well at colder temperatures on dry roads well below freezing, and an all-season is a better choice in rain at 45F (or even into the 30s on a purely wet road) than a winter tire (ask me how I know). Where all-season tires begin to miss the mark is on any sort of frozen surface (snow or ice), where their performance pales against a true winter tire compound with appropriate siping on the face of the tire. An all-season on wet ice is hopeless, where a true winter will give you some measure of stopping ability.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:00 AM
drdocument drdocument is offline
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
All-season tires perform well at colder temperatures on dry roads well below freezing, and an all-season is a better choice in rain at 45F (or even into the 30s on a purely wet road) than a winter tire (ask me how I know). Where all-season tires begin to miss the mark is on any sort of frozen surface (snow or ice), where their performance pales against a true winter tire compound with appropriate siping on the face of the tire. An all-season on wet ice is hopeless, where a true winter will give you some measure of stopping ability.
Thanks both for the great info! This year is unusual for me in that we have heavier than normal snowfall, we are in an apartment with no storage space (shop, E39 and its snow tires & wheels lost to fire), and this is my first AWD. I average less than 200 miles/week, and it's mostly on arterials plowed and de-iced so it's wet pavement. On any given trip the DTC light might blink once or twice on a snowy side street, but that's it. And I am very careful.

So far, so good. But after we're back in the house will probably get a set of winter tires & wheels for future winters.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:14 AM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Just a note on temps: the TireRack guy in the Outside article in the F30 forum about snow/no-season tires claims no-seasons get harder starting at 40F-45F... Certainly summer tires are scary at lower temps; maybe he's trying to sell more tires...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=1#post9996043

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Old 01-12-2017, 05:40 PM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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It will be fine if you have winter tires. I get around with my RWD 5 series just fine.

winter tires on a RWD example will always outperform Xdrive with all seasons
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:07 PM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
Well, the OP did specifically ask about performance in snow, so I think that may be why the discussion went towards that.

That being said, I think you're a bit off the mark about the all-season tires. The 45F/7C crossover point is typically considered to be where dedicated summer tires lose the ability to perform in most conditions, as the tire compound becomes quite hard.

All-season tires perform well at colder temperatures on dry roads well below freezing, and an all-season is a better choice in rain at 45F (or even into the 30s on a purely wet road) than a winter tire (ask me how I know). Where all-season tires begin to miss the mark is on any sort of frozen surface (snow or ice), where their performance pales against a true winter tire compound with appropriate siping on the face of the tire. An all-season on wet ice is hopeless, where a true winter will give you some measure of stopping ability.
performance in snow is directly a function of four small patches of rubber, so that is very much direct to the OP question.

Actually, I am not off the mark about all-season tires. 7C/45F (well 40-45F) is the accepted crossover point for all-season. I just write 45F.

all-season tires do not perform well at colder temperatures on dry roads well below freezing in comparison to winter tires. An all-season tire doesn't magically become more pliant just because it's a dry road. That is a fact. All season is not better in rain below 45F, for the same reason all-season is not better below 45F. An all-season tire doesn't magically increase traction and become more pliant just because it is raining. If you take a frozen piece of gum versus a pliable piece of gum and throw it on any surface, frozen or dry, what happens?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:18 PM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Thanks both for the great info! This year is unusual for me in that we have heavier than normal snowfall, we are in an apartment with no storage space (shop, E39 and its snow tires & wheels lost to fire), and this is my first AWD. I average less than 200 miles/week, and it's mostly on arterials plowed and de-iced so it's wet pavement. On any given trip the DTC light might blink once or twice on a snowy side street, but that's it. And I am very careful.

So far, so good. But after we're back in the house will probably get a set of winter tires & wheels for future winters.
x-drive (AWD) doesn't make the BMW safer. It assists in acceleration. Four patches or rubber determines your BMW's ability to retain traction when braking, handling, cornering, etc., not AWD.

Do the vast plurality of people in the DC area forego winter tires? Yes. Do you see lots of DC cars in the ditch and lots of accidents with a small amount of precipitation? Yes. Ultimately, it comes down to the cost of winter tires vs risk you are willing to accept. If you hit a patch of ice in the city at 12mph, is being able to stop 19ft shorter worth the expense, or 30ft shorter on snow at 25mph?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:28 PM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
x-drive (AWD) doesn't make the BMW safer. It assists in acceleration. Four patches or rubber determines your BMW's ability to retain traction when braking, handling, cornering, etc., not AWD.

Do the vast plurality of people in the DC area forego winter tires? Yes. Do you see lots of DC cars in the ditch and lots of accidents with a small amount of precipitation? Yes. Ultimately, it comes down to the cost of winter tires vs risk you are willing to accept. If you hit a patch of ice in the city at 12mph, is being able to stop 19ft shorter worth the expense, or 30ft shorter on snow at 25mph?
agreed, the extra weight over the front axle wont be doing you any good around braking. the only time it will help around snowy corners if you are hitting apex's on throttle like a god damn rally driver.

otherwise, stick to RWD. if you "need" AWD, stay far, far away from BMW
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:49 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Let me lead this off by stating that in my driveway sit an F22 xDrive BMW on Blizzak WS-80 snow tires, a Tacoma 4x4 pickup on Blizzak DV-M snow tires, and my wife's AWD Outback on Michelin Premier all-seasons. In the past week, we've had 12" of snow at 20F, 0.5" of rain at 50F, a -4F morning 3 days ago, and a 65F day yesterday. Unlike a number of people in this thread, I'm speaking from experience and have the ability to test multiple scenarios.


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performance in snow is directly a function of four small patches of rubber, so that is very much direct to the OP question.
And if you go back to my first post, you'll see the words "dedicated snows" in the first sentence.



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Actually, I am not off the mark about all-season tires. 7C/45F (well 40-45F) is the accepted crossover point for all-season. I just write 45F.
"Accepted" by whom? References please. Lacking those, I think you'll find just about everyone will say you're off the mark. I certainly will. You'll see plenty about 45F being the crossover point for summer tires. All-season, not so much. Excluding tire store websites, the article floydarogers links to above is the only one I've ever seen, and it's as a side comment as opposed to a test summary. Including TireRack in the mix, as the quote noted comes from their testing person, TireRack lists 40F as the point where summers shouldn't be used, not all-seasons, which makes me think the Outdoor Magazine reporter got the quote wrong.


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all-season tires do not perform well at colder temperatures on dry roads well below freezing in comparison to winter tires. ....... All season is not better in rain below 45F, for the same reason all-season is not better below 45F.
Nope, not even close to the actual situation. The above statements are straight-up wrong.

Let me save you some time trying to document your position. Here's a test you can look at: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

And here's a graph using data from that article:


Look at the data for dry braking at 23F. The winners are ...... all-seasons. The losers are ..... dedicated snow tires. Same for wet braking.

But, if you're on snow or ice, the winter tires are clear winners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
Do the vast plurality of people in the DC area forego winter tires? Yes. Do you see lots of DC cars in the ditch and lots of accidents with a small amount of precipitation? Yes. Ultimately, it comes down to the cost of winter tires vs risk you are willing to accept. If you hit a patch of ice in the city at 12mph, is being able to stop 19ft shorter worth the expense, or 30ft shorter on snow at 25mph?
And you're conflating "precipitation" and "ice", which means you're near or under 32, not 45. Past that, again, reading what I wrote instead of what you wanted me to say, you'll see the phrase "Where all-season tires begin to miss the mark is on any sort of frozen surface (snow or ice)". However, if there isn't snow and ice on the road, you won't see that many people in the ditch. I certainly didn't on the below zero morning the other day, when I didn't see a single car slide in my 27 mile commute, despite most people not having snow tires.



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agreed, the extra weight over the front axle wont be doing you any good around braking. the only time it will help around snowy corners if you are hitting apex's on throttle like a god damn rally driver.
And another quote from someone who doesn't appear to have driven an AWD with snow tires in fresh snow or on packed icy roads. Welcome to the flip side of the "AWD BMWs aren't any fun" argument. The torque shifting to the front axle at any point in a corner reduces oversteer markedly. Yes, it doesn't help you stop (well, the extra weight does diminsh the stopping distance slightly), but it does help in just about any other condition you'll come across if you know how to drive an AWD car on snow. Go back to my first post, the one with "keep driving the car". When you get off the gas, an AWD car behaves effectively the same as a RWD. It's when you keep the driveline in the game that you can see the differences, whether you're before, at, or after the apex.

I had a reminder last week driving my pickup on the unplowed street in front of my house, when the first curve reminded me that I hadn't put the truck into 4WD. Engaging the transfer case didn't change the tires, but it did markedly correct the tendency to slide over into the oncoming lane while going through the corners.


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if you "need" AWD, stay far, far away from BMW
This statement is just foolish. I've been driving AWD BMWs with snow tires for the last 8 winters, 4 of them with the BMW as my only vehicle and another 3 with it as the primary one. They are more stable in snow and on ice than my 4x4 pickup. Not as good as my older AWD Passat, but better than most high-CG AWD or 4x4 vehicles. Where they struggle is in very deep (>10") fresh snow where the car starts to high-center or in slush ruts at speed where the car wants to tramline. It also won't go through plow humps worth a damn, but you'll get that on anything with car-sized ground clearance.
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Old 01-13-2017, 05:48 AM
drdocument drdocument is offline
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Big picture:

While all this is informative and helpful, the most significant variable is the driver.
In 50 winters driving here I have seen beaters with nearly-bald tires getting around just fine and AWDs with studded snows in the ditch.

My E90 xDrive with all-seasons seems to be doing about as well as my E39 with Nokian studded snows, so far, in similar conditions.

So I guess my answer to OP would be XI will handle just fine in snow, depending on driver skill and judgment.
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:19 AM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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Have you ever tried a RWD BMW? They're not even comparable. You're missing out.
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:37 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Have you ever tried a RWD BMW? They're not even comparable. You're missing out.
Yes, I have. You need to define "comparable". Typically, this devolves to someone trying to define oversteer as "fun". As I'm past the stage where having a car that will hang the rear end out without effort or ability is "fun", I don't believe I'm missing anything.

But let's go the other way. Have you ever driven an AWD BMW with snow tires on snow or ice?
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:49 AM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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Yes, I have. You need to define "comparable". Typically, this devolves to someone trying to define oversteer as "fun". As I'm past the stage where having a car that will hang the rear end out without effort or ability is "fun", I don't believe I'm missing anything.

But let's go the other way. Have you ever driven an AWD BMW with snow tires on snow or ice?
Yes I have. Traction off the line was impressive but steering and braking was garbage. If your definition of safety is 0-60 times then I understand your importance for AWD.
Are you really trying to make this argument? How long has BMW been making RWD cars, and how long have they been making Xdrive for? I'm talking in general here, it's not like we get snow all 12 months of the year. Even here in Toronto we get a couple snowfalls in the winter and that's it - nothing a good set of winters tires can't handle. I will not let Xdrive impede my fun for the rest of the reasons where it is either dry or raining and giving you the potential to have lots of fun with your BMW. Xdrive is a generic AWD system and does not feel as good around corners as a RWD example. They have been building these great chassis for decades now, why you gotta ruin it with some god damn AWD? Non Xdrive bmws are totally doable in the winter.. if you're going to buy f*cking Xdrive BMW's get an Audi or a Subaru because this is getting ridiculous. Why does everyone act like it's such a necessity? I live in Canada for Christ sake and specifically bought a BMW without it, just like you're supposed to because it's useless. End of story
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:40 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
Yes I have. Traction off the line was impressive but steering and braking was garbage. If your definition of safety is 0-60 times then I understand your importance for AWD.
Are you really trying to make this argument? How long has BMW been making RWD cars, and how long have they been making Xdrive for? I'm talking in general here, it's not like we get snow all 12 months of the year. Even here in Toronto we get a couple snowfalls in the winter and that's it - nothing a good set of winters tires can't handle. I will not let Xdrive impede my fun for the rest of the reasons where it is either dry or raining and giving you the potential to have lots of fun with your BMW. Xdrive is a generic AWD system and does not feel as good around corners as a RWD example. They have been building these great chassis for decades now, why you gotta ruin it with some god damn AWD? Non Xdrive bmws are totally doable in the winter.. if you're going to buy f*cking Xdrive BMW's get an Audi or a Subaru because this is getting ridiculous. Why does everyone act like it's such a necessity? I live in Canada for Christ sake and specifically bought a BMW without it, just like you're supposed to because it's useless. End of story
Oh, get off the Canada horse. You live in Toronto, not Quebec City. There's not a spits worth of difference between Toronto's weather and Boston's. More to the point, you've passed the standard RWD rant and have run straight on to fanboi. The braking in an AWD BMW was different? Really? How? Get a grip. Not everyone defines "fun" as hooning the rear end around like a 16-year-old jackass.

And, yes, I am making that argument. You, however, appear to just be making a fairly incoherent amount of noise.
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Prior 40 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette / 1981 Subaru GL wagon 4WD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion / 2009 BMW 335i xDrive E92
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:51 AM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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how is extra weight over the front axle going to help you with braking? how will it help with cornering unless you hit the apex on throttle like a rally driver which I imagine most drivers dont ever do.

my argument is that a rear drive BMW is manageable in the snow with the right tires. you should give it a shot.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:21 PM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Location: Mansfield, MA
 
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Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
Have you ever driven an AWD BMW with snow tires on snow or ice?
Traction off the line was impressive but steering and braking was garbage.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get into an argument with someone who clearly has no experience with the subject at hand.
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2015 M235xi coupe, Black Sapphire Metallic, Black Leather, Fineline Stream trim, Steptronic, xDrive, ZPP, ZTP, ZCW, ZDA, ZDB, 5DP, hk w/ BimmerTech amp, Enh. BT
Ordered 3/12/15, Off the line 4/7/15, Delivered 5/14/15




Prior 40 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette / 1981 Subaru GL wagon 4WD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion / 2009 BMW 335i xDrive E92

Last edited by Zooks527; 01-14-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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