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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:04 PM
Sarahsdad Sarahsdad is offline
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How hot is my engine?

I have just purchased a 2011 328i with NAV. Is there any way to have the system read out the engine temperature? That seems like something that would be good to know when you are driving. Even my old pick-up has a heat gauge.
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  #2  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:35 PM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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There are hidden menus that allow you to read some parameters.
not practical to use on a regular basis.
Torque app and a bluetooth dongle/obd cable or Carly app but its
not something you want to leave plugged in as it will drain the battery.
And the temperature doesn't just go to a set value and stay there
because the control logic can vary the temperature based on use.

http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus

Last edited by ctuna; 01-11-2017 at 09:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:02 PM
opjose opjose is offline
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Bare in mind that the engine is designed to run hot and at very specific temperature ranges based upon load.

The engine water temp is all over as you drive which is likely why there is no water temp gauge.
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  #4  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:48 PM
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CALWATERBOY DUE CALWATERBOY DUE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarahsdad View Post
I have just purchased a 2011 328i with NAV. Is there any way to have the system read out the engine temperature? That seems like something that would be good to know when you are driving. Even my old pick-up has a heat gauge.

What you want....is oil temp.
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  #5  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:03 PM
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Tom K. Tom K. is offline
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As a rough guide, you can check the oil level on the dash computer. If no reading is available, then assume the oil is below 160o or so (takes about 5 miles or so to warm up in 50o ambient temps).

Not very satisfactory, but the water temp gauge on the E46 was so heavily buffered that it was only useful for warm-up - after that it was essentially an idiot light.

Tom
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  #6  
Old 01-12-2017, 05:42 PM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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like someone else said, these cars run hot for emissions and fuel economy purposes.

I have your same engine with an oil temp gauge.
it takes quite a while to warm up (almost 30 minutes in cold weather) and runs quite hot in traffic on a warm day.

for temperatures above 0C, removing your plastic engine cover helps keep temperatures exactly where they should be if you are concerned.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-2017, 07:10 PM
Wolfwasp Wolfwasp is offline
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Greetings,
Since the subject of oil temp came up I would like to ask a question if that is OK. Also, I did not know that the engine water temp was that erratic. Thank you. Maybe that is an effect for what I am noticing with my oil temp.
For the most part it stays at about 160 for my whole commute, about 25 miles each way with a combo of stop, start, normal freeway, and some 80mph. A bit of everything.
Lately the temperature gradually climbs up to 240 and occasionally gets close to 250. 250 worries me. I keep a close eye on it and eventually it kicks down to 160, not slowly, I see the needle drop.
Does that "sound normal" to everyone?
Much appreciated.

Last edited by Wolfwasp; 01-16-2017 at 07:18 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-16-2017, 07:23 PM
opjose opjose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwasp View Post
For the most part it stays at about 160 for my whole commute, about 25 miles eachway with a combo of stop, start, normal freeway, and some 80mph. A bit of everything.
Lately the temperature has climbed up to 240 and occasionally gets close to 250.

Does that "sound normal" to everyone?
Yup normal.

The car manages the temps for best performance via "temperature maps".

The harder you push the car the more actively it tries to maintain a lower temperature, so if you are cruising around, even at speed, it lets the temps come up.

Mine stays around 210-220 on 28 mile commutes.

On some days it has gone to 240 on the oil gauge and once or twice just under 250.

Worry only when you notice a jet engine or freight train sound coming from your engine, particularly at idle. This will be something that is so noticeable that you will have no doubt of it being abnormal.... THEN worry about replacing your thermostat and water pump ASAP.

Some people do report that they get a 10 degree drop or so after switching to different oils and viscosities.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2017, 07:34 PM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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Well, it depends on your definition of normal. It's certainly normal for a modern BMW with the electric water pumps, but in general this is a rather high temp reserved for track use.

If you see your oil temp reach this figure often, consider removing the plastic engine cover.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2017, 07:50 PM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwasp View Post
For the most part it stays at about 160 for my whole commute, about 25 miles each way with a combo of stop, start, normal freeway, and some 80mph. A bit of everything.
Lately the temperature gradually climbs up to 240 and occasionally gets close to 250. 250 worries me. I keep a close eye on it and eventually it kicks down to 160, not slowly, I see the needle drop.
Does that "sound normal" to everyone?
No, on a 335, that's actually abnormal, but the abnormal part is the low end.

On a 25 mile commute, you should see between 220F and 250F at the end of the ride, depending on the outside temperature and your driving speed. The temperature should come up smoothly, clearing 220F after 15 to 20 miles of driving.

Once at temperature, at a constant speed it should stabilize somewhere between 220 and 250, again, depending on the outside temperature. 250 isn't a problem, it's normal, 20 degrees above the setpoint where the diverter valve in the oil filter housing starts to open to send oil to the oil cooler down in your passenger wheel well. The engine doesn't begin to protect itself by dropping power until the oil approaches 300F. Power and AC reduction due to high oil temperature start at 298F, AC is fully off at 306F, and the engine goes to low power "limp" mode at 315F with a yellow temperature warning. Emergency mode (red temp warning, stop immediately) occurs at 322F. There's a similar sequence of power reductions for water temperature, albeit at much lower points.

It's the 160F reading that's the problem, and it's way too cool. The engine isn't operating at full efficiency at that point, nor is everything at its full size for seating in the bearings. You should not see the drop you're seeing. 220 - 250 up and down could be normal. 250 dropping to 160 is not.

At a guess, the diverter in your oil filter housing is sticking, diverting oil to the auxillary cooler at too low a temperature. It sounds as though it eventually closes, allows the oil to come up to normal range, then opens and sticks open, resulting in the drop.

Alternatively, there may be an issue with your gauge, which is controlled by the ECU and is buffered to damp out swings in engine temperature, rather than directly displaying what the ECU is reading.

On your next drive, access the service menu using the link from ctuna in post #2 above (http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus) and display the actual oil temperature on the digital section instead of using the gauge. What is the temperature behavior during your drive when you look at it that way?
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Last edited by Zooks527; 01-17-2017 at 02:58 AM.
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  #11  
Old 01-16-2017, 08:01 PM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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250 is the absolute highest you should see your temps - 160 is basically just barely warmed up. Optimally temps should be between 220-230. Really not any higher then 240.
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  #12  
Old 01-17-2017, 02:42 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
250 is the absolute highest you should see your temps ...... Optimally temps should be between 220-230. Really not any higher then 240.
This is flat out wrong. 240 to 250 is normal and typical, especially in outside temperatures above 50. The N55 in my F22 runs at a steady 245 (read directly from the ECU, not via a gauge) on a regular basis. Modern engines are designed to run as hot as is practical to maximize the thermal efficiency of the engine. If they could reliably run it hotter, they would.
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Last edited by Zooks527; 01-17-2017 at 03:08 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-17-2017, 08:55 AM
RWD-F10-N52 RWD-F10-N52 is offline
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If you look on the n55 specs on mywikimotors.com you will note that the normal operating temperature for your engine is 230f. I don't think you have an understanding how what sort of temperatures your engine is going through at 250f. You mentioned that's your temps when it's 50 degrees outside? Imagine what temperatures you will be seeing during the summer heat. 250f is redline on every street in the middle of the summer temperatures for an average car not designed to run so hot.

So you're telling me it's ok to see temperatures clearly past operating temp, creeping into overheating temperatures just for the sake of fuel efficiency and emissions? No way in hell. There's a reason why the ECU always tries to make sure it doesn't go past 250.. that becomes full on overheating temperatures. How can you call this normal? So you're basically sacrificing the healthy long term operation of your engine so it runs a little bit more efficiently and produces less emissions? No way in hell. I remove my engine cover in warmer temperatures and It never goes past 230f because I could care less about emissions. I'd rather protect my engine..
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  #14  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:53 AM
Wolfwasp Wolfwasp is offline
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I want to thank everyone for your input. It is very helpful.
I also want to apologize for some misinformation in my original post.
The temperature starts at 160. It climbs gradually to about 220f within 20 miles of driving.
Then it either stays there (this is on my commute only), or it flucuates between 220-245-50f. It does not drop down to 160f. I am sorry.
It drops from 245-50 to 220+/- , back and forth.
It sounds like this is normal occurrence judging from the information here.
I did not have a chance to engage the hidden menu today. I was running late and my wife was with me. But I will.
Many thanks for everyone's time.

Last edited by Wolfwasp; 01-17-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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  #15  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:04 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwasp View Post
The temperature starts at 160. It climbs gradually to about 220f within 20 miles of driving.
Then it either stays there (this is on my commute only), or it flucuates between 220-245-50f. It does not drop down to 160f. I am sorry.
It drops from 245-50 to 220+/- , back and forth.
It sounds like this is normal occurrence judging from the information here.
Yup, dead normal. I would guess you're watching the oil cooler diverter open and close. Sounds like it might be sticking a bit, but not to a level that would cause any concern. If you're seeing that in hilly / mountainous terrain, it's pretty normal regardless.
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Prior 40 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette / 1981 Subaru GL wagon 4WD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion / 2009 BMW 335i xDrive E92

Last edited by Zooks527; 01-17-2017 at 02:45 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:33 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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My goodness, so much wrong in so little space. Shall we start unpacking some of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
If you look on the n55 specs on mywikimotors.com .....
Well, here's your first problem, using a crowdsourced internet site instead of actual technical material from the manufacturer. I'm using BMW's Engine Management training material for the N54. It's probably more accurate than what some random fanboi added to a wiki.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
... you will note that the normal operating temperature for your engine is 230f.
And this is where one needs to be careful to define one's terms. "Normal operating temperature" of what? The coolant? The cylinder head? The oil? Fortunately, if we go the the Engine Management guide, we find that 230F is ..... one of the normal cylinder head temperature setpoints (see thumbnail 1, 108C ECO mode).

So, here we are having a discussion about oil temperature, and you're using a head temperature reference to support your position.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
I don't think you have an understanding how what sort of temperatures your engine is going through at 250f.
Of course I do. I've been driving and maintaining either an N54 or N55 at that operating temperature for the last 8 years / 165,000 miles.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
You mentioned that's your temps when it's 50 degrees outside? Imagine what temperatures you will be seeing during the summer heat.
I don't have to imagine it. They'll be the same 230 - 250 range that I've seen in summer temperatures up to 106F (here's a post from 2011 from just that situation: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=556590). I did see a higher temperature once, reaching 255 during a fast climb of Mt. Washington during a BMW group ride to be in position to get some camera shots of each car as it came around a curve.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
250f is redline on every street in the middle of the summer temperatures for an average car not designed to run so hot.
Is this supposed to read as something other than a bad Google translation of gibberish into English?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
So you're telling me it's ok to see temperatures clearly past operating temp, creeping into overheating temperatures just for the sake of fuel efficiency and emissions?
No, I'm telling you that it's ok to see those temperatures because you are clearly unaware of the normal operating temperature ranges of the fluids within the engine.

Also, you should take a breath next time. I don't believe I've typed the word "emissions" before this post. Yes, yes, you think you've got such a great answer to the question that you just need to bring it up, but, hey, your great answer is just as wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
I remove my engine cover in warmer temperatures and It never goes past 230f because I could care less about emissions.
You know, I didn't think you'd be able to top the full-on inanity of your contention that AWD ruined the braking of a BMW that you drove. Imagine my surprise when not only do you come up with something more mind-numbingly foolish in just a few days, but you insist on repeating it throughout this thread like a parrot with a head injury.

But, come on, be honest. The real reason you remove the cover is that it shows off that cool purple anodized blowoff valve you bought on eBay. And, yes, I realize you don't have a turbocharged engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD-F10-N52 View Post
I'd rather protect my engine..
Then you should want to run it at the full design operating temperature so that the bearings are seated properly.

But don't take my word for it. Thumbnails 2 and 3 are the temperature map points for overheating. Assuming you can do simple math, you'll note that the engine doesn't give a flying fig about oil temperatures until they're nearing 300F (thumbnail 2), as opposed to water temperature, where it starts to get upset around 240F (thumbnail 3). Or, for that matter, go back to thumbnail 1 and note the last line of the penultimate paragraph, where reduced friction is associated with the highest head temperature.
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Ordered 3/12/15, Off the line 4/7/15, Delivered 5/14/15




Prior 40 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette / 1981 Subaru GL wagon 4WD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion / 2009 BMW 335i xDrive E92

Last edited by Zooks527; 01-17-2017 at 05:50 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:42 AM
wunderkind wunderkind is offline
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^ good stuff! Thanks.

I'm curious why the Torque Converter begins to lockup at high temps.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:51 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderkind View Post
I'm curious why the Torque Converter begins to lockup at high temps.
At a guess, it's trying to limit RPM runup in the engine or it's trying to maximize the efficiency of the transmission to try to limit fuel use. But either of those is just a guess.
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Prior 40 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette / 1981 Subaru GL wagon 4WD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion / 2009 BMW 335i xDrive E92

Last edited by Zooks527; 01-17-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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