signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue? - Page 3 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series & 4 Series > F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F34 / F36 (2012 - current)

F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F34 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:07 AM
momazacg momazacg is offline
Registered User
Location: russia
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: F30 320I
But isn't if we got a problem with the valves the engine light should appears ?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #52  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:11 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
Valve issue is unlikely unless oil changes were infrequent and the engine is high mileage. You won't ncecessarily get any engine lights for it. You can use his advice in terms of rattling sound as a starter, but your best bet will be to inspect the timing chain visually and change oil frequently every 5000 miles
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-28-2017, 04:58 PM
momazacg momazacg is offline
Registered User
Location: russia
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: F30 320I
guys check this videos may help

Whistle Noise which i think coming from oil pump chain

















Rattle Noise










the good sound guess should be like this





Last edited by momazacg; 04-28-2017 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #54  
Old 04-29-2017, 09:48 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...er+70k&page=11
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-29-2017, 11:03 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by F10-N52 View Post
Valve issue is unlikely unless oil changes were infrequent and the engine is high mileage. You won't ncecessarily get any engine lights for it. You can use his advice in terms of rattling sound as a starter, but your best bet will be to inspect the timing chain visually and change oil frequently every 5000 miles
Post#42 video is a great way to visually inspect the chain. Since the rpm of the chain is high, once rubbing starts most of the metal links probably will get shiny patches.

One word of caution is that be careful not to drop anything through the opening, or else it can go to the oil pan(good case), or get stuck on some moving parts(not good case). In comparison my old M54 oil cap opening leads to an oil passage, and dropped objects(e.g. oil bottle cap) could still be extracted easily, That will definitely not be the case for this N26.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:18 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by momazacg View Post
namelessman , That's My Video so here are more pictures of the current timing chain i have which dealers says it's normal


https://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo/..._id=9746641100
....
These are 2 interesting videos. The first one(cold engine) does look loose, while the second one(after drive) looks tight and snug.

This seems to be an easy test to check for stretched timing chain, so does yours move around a lot on the guide while cold?

To be fair there are comments regarding oil pressured chain tensioners not applying full tension while cold, and there is no spec(accessible for free) for allowable slack/play on a non-stretched chain.

From the info available so far(without BMW acknowledging any issue), a game plan for owners is something like this:

1. do not push the engine without reaching operational temp.
2. keep the oil in good condition.
3. disable auto start/stop to avoid shutting down engine before reaching operation temp.
4. visually inspect timing chain on cold engine for excessive play and excessive shiny patches/marks.

My thinking right now is that the combination of:
a. ASS
b. cold start
c. using balance shafts to drive the chains
d. spirited run without reaching operational temp
.... is the setup that was not carefully tested by Munich engineers.



Last edited by namelessman; 04-30-2017 at 01:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:54 AM
fleetwood530i fleetwood530i is offline
Registered User
Location: pennsylvania
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 43
Mein Auto: 530i
Just want to add my 2012 528i xdrive with N20 engine to the list of FAILED engines. BMW dealership trying to blame it on contaminated oil, but drained and disposed of oil without testing it. They also declined to check the condition of the timing chain. This has left me suspicious, especially in light of reading of others having tc issues with the N20.....
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:58 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetwood530i View Post
Just want to add my 2012 528i xdrive with N20 engine to the list of FAILED engines. BMW dealership trying to blame it on contaminated oil, but drained and disposed of oil without testing it. They also declined to check the condition of the timing chain. This has left me suspicious, especially in light of reading of others having tc issues with the N20.....
Did the foreman explain how contaminated oil lead to engine failure? Also did the engine seize? Per bmwtechnician.com TC issue manifests itself with high-pitch whining, was that the case your N20? In fact another foreman told me TC issue should throw code and/or CEL too, but none of the online accounts of TC problems mentioned CEL ....
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-01-2017, 12:36 PM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
I could not be happier with my decision to buy the 2011 528i... (f10 with inline 6)
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-01-2017, 01:51 PM
adhrp adhrp is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: NJ
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 492
Mein Auto: 2012 F30 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetwood530i View Post
Just want to add my 2012 528i xdrive with N20 engine to the list of FAILED engines. BMW dealership trying to blame it on contaminated oil, but drained and disposed of oil without testing it. They also declined to check the condition of the timing chain. This has left me suspicious, especially in light of reading of others having tc issues with the N20.....
How many miles?
__________________


2012 328i Luxury Line | Glacier Silver/Saddle Brown | Premium pkg | Tech pkg | Cold weather pkg | Lighting pkg | Park distance control | Anti-theft alarm system
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:42 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
There seems to be no online account of N26 TC failure, is it fair to assume N26 is immune to TC issues?

There are now two foremen who told me that stretched TC will trigger CEL, since the crankshaft timing will be off.

If CEL does get triggered by TC issues, then N26 owners will be covered by BMWNA for 15-yr/150k!!!

So the N26 owner's game plan is just to keep driving hard until CEL is lit, and then just bring it to dealer to fix.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:46 PM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
...

I'd rather not buy an engine that has problems like this in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:50 PM
Morpheus991 Morpheus991 is offline
Registered User
Location: Hollywood, CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 35
Mein Auto: Nothing Recently!
Quote:
Originally Posted by F10-N52 View Post
...

I'd rather not buy an engine that has problems like this in the first place.
No ****... Some of us have it and will have to either accept it or move on, right? If I had known about this earlier I would've probably gotten a different model.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Bimmerfest mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:51 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
BTW both foremen(in 2 different dealers) said even though there has been an uptick, it is more like going from zero to a few, across dealerships in our metro area. So it probably is rare enough not to be too concerned, esp. for the N26 owners.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-01-2017, 06:19 PM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
I just had a bad feeling about the n20, preferred the inline 6 (even though it is a bit slower) and every damn car on the market is xdrive. The 2011 528 is RWD only made it easier for me to pick even though people seem to really be holding onto this model. Mines at 75k and runs perfect I am very happy with my decision.


Those of you looking, I advise looking into the 2011 528i. It's heavy but it has a very long lasting and proven inline 6 motor.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:28 PM
backpackerx backpackerx is offline
Registered User
Location: Raleigh
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 11
Mein Auto: 2013 328ix
Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
There seems to be no online account of N26 TC failure, is it fair to assume N26 is immune to TC issues?

There are now two foremen who told me that stretched TC will trigger CEL, since the crankshaft timing will be off.

If CEL does get triggered by TC issues, then N26 owners will be covered by BMWNA for 15-yr/150k!!!

So the N26 owner's game plan is just to keep driving hard until CEL is lit, and then just bring it to dealer to fix.

I have an N26 engine in my 2013 328xi. Why is it thought that the N26 doesn't have this issue like the N20 and why would it be covered if not related to SULEV parts? I thought the only difference was in some of the emissions parts.

Last edited by backpackerx; 05-02-2017 at 02:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:38 PM
GandalfTheGrey GandalfTheGrey is offline
Registered User
Location: Maryland
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: '14 328i xDrive
Quote:
Originally Posted by F10-N52 View Post
I just had a bad feeling about the n20, preferred the inline 6 (even though it is a bit slower) and every damn car on the market is xdrive. The 2011 528 is RWD only made it easier for me to pick even though people seem to really be holding onto this model. Mines at 75k and runs perfect I am very happy with my decision.


Those of you looking, I advise looking into the 2011 528i. It's heavy but it has a very long lasting and proven inline 6 motor.
Just curious what personal experience or research you are using as the basis for your opinion? I've read through a number of threads in which you've constantly lambasted the n20 as being a s**t engine but haven't seen you explain why. Is it just a few stories you've heard about a timing chain issue or have you read research that indicates the TC issue is anything more than a random freak incident associated with poorly maintained cars?

As the owner of an F30 with the n20 I'd love to know, as I'm sure others would. Otherwise it's really hard to take your constant criticism seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:52 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by backpackerx View Post
I have an N26 engine in my 2013 328xi. Why is it thought that the N26 doesn't have this issue like the N20 and why would it be covered if not related to SULEV parts? I thought the only difference was in some of the emissions parts.
The thought process is that a stretched TC will lead to camshaft timing issues(basically TC syncs up crankshaft and camshaft). When the camshaft timing is off, the camshaft sensor can pick that up, and/or engine misfires, and trigger CEL. Since N26 PZEV warranty covers CEL, the dealer will need to fix any issue that leads to emission problems.

Having said that, none of the other online accounts of N20 TC failures mentioned CEL ....

Last edited by namelessman; 05-02-2017 at 05:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-03-2017, 08:45 AM
momazacg momazacg is offline
Registered User
Location: russia
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: F30 320I
guys , all engines whatever mercedes , audi , bmw , porsche , ford , toyota sometimes they broke and timing chain of all of them can be stretched , looking into the number of people who had problems with the N20 engine , remember me of the new w205 mercedes engine which also had some issues but this number stills under the low rate , 100 or 500 car of 5 millions is really nothing compare to it's reliability for my self i have been driving the car since it was new i never touched the engine , my whole service history was oil change and brake pads nothing else , even my car never had any recalls

so the engine is perfect and the car it self is reliable compare it to the older E90 and it's rivals which was a disaster
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-03-2017, 08:55 AM
crabu2 crabu2 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 169
Mein Auto: Truck and car
Quote:
Originally Posted by momazacg View Post
guys , all engines whatever mercedes , audi , bmw , porsche , ford , toyota sometimes they broke and timing chain of all of them can be stretched , looking into the number of people who had problems with the N20 engine , remember me of the new w205 mercedes engine which also had some issues but this number stills under the low rate , 100 or 500 car of 5 millions is really nothing compare to it's reliability for my self i have been driving the car since it was new i never touched the engine , my whole service history was oil change and brake pads nothing else , even my car never had any recalls

so the engine is perfect and the car it self is reliable compare it to the older E90 and it's rivals which was a disaster

All engines can have problems, but a specific issue like a timing chain doesn't become an issue unless it's happening over and over again..

Go to any of the other brand forums and you'll see what kinds of problems are popping up and what is common.

Based on what's being posted here and other places, the N20 has a timing chain problem. It looks like it's the most common cause of failure for this engine.

When Toyota had the sludge problem, there were many that defended Toyota saying it's only an X number out of millions... It took a lawsuit for Toyota to admit there was a problem.. And similar to what BMW did (BMW revised the chain), Toyota reduce their OCI to reduce sludge build up.

The problem with the N20 isn't the turbo, carbon buildup, oil pump, or water pump... even though I've seen posts about failures/problems caused by those issues. The problem with the N20 is the chain and it's a big problem because it takes the the engine out... A very costly problem.

BTW, forget the comparison against 5 million sold. BMW doesn't even sell a 500 thousand cars a year, in the US, and how many of those have an N20? THey do sell a couple million globally, but on this and most forums I read, it's problems in the US or UK.. English speaking areas so I need to try and compare those failures with those sales areas.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/
__________________
'17 230xi convertible

Last edited by crabu2; 05-03-2017 at 09:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:32 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabu2 View Post
The problem with the N20 isn't the turbo, carbon buildup, oil pump, or water pump... even though I've seen posts about failures/problems caused by those issues. The problem with the N20 is the chain and it's a big problem because it takes the the engine out... A very costly problem.
Yes engine loss and subsequent costly fix(if no goodwill from BMW) is a big problem. The other issues(e.g. turbo, carbon, oil/water pump) can also be problematic, e.g. oil/water pump, but those can be detected by temp gauges, and/or CEL.

It is still unclear to me if stretched timing chain can throw off camshaft timing and hence trigger CEL. If so at least owners can react quickly and minimize the repair bills. Also online search says metal particles in oil(always a bad sign) can be due to worn timing chain too.

So for now look out for:
1. high pitch whining at engine idle
2. engine misfire and/or camshaft fault code(CEL)
3. metal in oil
4. excessive play and/or excessive wear on timing chain

For one the Munich engineers deserve a medal to make the timing chain relatively accessible for visual inspection and repair.

Or did the engineers plan on N20 timing chain being a maintenance item?!?
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:50 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
Banned
Location: Vaughan
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,892
Mein Auto: 2011 528i RWD
You're insane. I would never take my chances with a high mileage n20. I have an n52 at 75k zero issues. If I had to take my chances it would be an e90 328i or e46 330i nothing else
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05-03-2017, 01:04 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: northern california
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,442
Mein Auto: bimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by F10-N52 View Post
You're insane. I would never take my chances with a high mileage n20. I have an n52 at 75k zero issues. If I had to take my chances it would be an e90 328i or e46 330i nothing else
A high-mileage N52, or M54, or N20 have zero issues and are reliable until the day the issue comes up.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-03-2017, 02:38 PM
Lsg1114 Lsg1114 is offline
Registered User
Location: NH
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 96
Mein Auto: 2013 328i xdrive
I wanted to add my .02. I haven't posted for almost 5 years because I've been out enjoying my F30. I want you to have a point of reference from someone who has an F30 with an N20 engine with high mileage. I now have just over 87,000 miles on it and have had 0 issues. I bought it new, changed the oil every 7000 miles like clockwork. This car has been babied the entire time I've owned it and I'm sure the new owner will be very happy with it once I pull the trigger on a 440.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-03-2017, 03:30 PM
Morpheus991 Morpheus991 is offline
Registered User
Location: Hollywood, CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 35
Mein Auto: Nothing Recently!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lsg1114 View Post
I wanted to add my .02. I haven't posted for almost 5 years because I've been out enjoying my F30. I want you to have a point of reference from someone who has an F30 with an N20 engine with high mileage. I now have just over 87,000 miles on it and have had 0 issues. I bought it new, changed the oil every 7000 miles like clockwork. This car has been babied the entire time I've owned it and I'm sure the new owner will be very happy with it once I pull the trigger on a 440.
So I got my first BMW a couple weeks ago (F30) and I took it in for a minor service yesterday and they gave me a brand new 440 GT with a ton of options. It was really really nice... and fast. My only complaint is/was that the M Sport suspension can be a little annoying on the freeway/streets if there's any tiny bit of bumps etc on the road. Definitely felt much more luxurious and made me want to upgrade my car for sure.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Bimmerfest mobile app
Reply With Quote
Reply

See More Related BMW Stories


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series & 4 Series > F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F34 / F36 (2012 - current)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001- VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.