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E63 / E64 M6 (2006 - 2010)

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  #26  
Old 05-25-2005, 11:47 AM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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SpeedFreak,

I agree that they really don't need to broaden the appeal of the M's and quite frankly I hope they don't. If I wanted a car to be seen in and one that is seen everywhere I'd go for the Benz as F1Cracy suggested that I do.

The comment by F1Crazy "the M division's primary consumer purpose is to build street legal race cars that we can buy for a reasonable price" First off, if one thinks the M6 is a street legal race car they have seriously got to be joking. This thing is as close to a race car as my X5 is. If you have ever driven a "streetable" race car or any race car on the street you'll know what I am talking about. They are loud, low, and so stiff that are very undesirable as a truly streetable machine. No, the M6 is a fat, fast GT cruiser with catagory leading drivability. 99% of the buyers won't even think about taking them to the track and as such, a manual transmission is way out of place on this car, which has been my discussion point all along. ie., if BMW were to offer an optional tranny to the SMG, the automatic is much more fitting for this car than the manual, and IMHO would out sell the manual by a wide wide margin, much to the chagrin of oldtimers and purists.

I'm just the "antichrist", that would definately consider an automatic on the M6. A manual on a M3 or some other car that can be thrown around a bit, now that's a different story, of course the SMG would always be the superior choice in those cases.

Last edited by MaxTimeOff; 05-25-2005 at 12:24 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-25-2005, 12:27 PM
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MaxTimeOff,
I didn't suggest that M6 is a street legal race car but it will have some of the race developed technology without sacrificing comfort features everyone wants nowadays and that means it will be heavier than it needs to be. Chassis must obviously be good enough for racing since BMW wants to race it in FIA GT class.

M cars won't have automatic transmissions because it is against their philosophy, automatics tamper performance and take away from driving experience, I hope you agree with that.

Automatic in M car is not what buyers want, it simply is bad business. I understand that there are number of people who would prefer automatic because they can't drive sticks and for them SMG is the answer. There are also huge numbers of poseurs who buy these cars for that M badge and they probably curse the stick every time they drive it but manual is part of the appeal even to them, it is so mucho after all. It's very sad but thanks to these assholes enthusiasts can still buy these cars. This goes also for P cars, I doubt we'd see GT2 or GT3 if it wasn't for the people who buy tiptronic turbos. There simply isn't big enough number of enthusiasts who buy these cars to justify development costs.
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  #28  
Old 05-25-2005, 12:31 PM
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Basically, the M cars brought manual transmissions to segments of the market that don't really have them anymore. That's one of the things that makes them kind of special.
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2005, 01:14 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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"automatics tamper performance and take away from driving experience, I hope you agree with that. "

How could anyone disagree with the first part anyway. Although, some peoples driving experience could be enhanced by an auto especially if they are uncomfortable with a manual. It's a big world out there.

"Automatic in M car is not what buyers want, it simply is bad business."

I don't think that any of us can certian about this, you included. Take a look at the 645. In the U.S. it is offered with a SMG and Steptronic. I am not sure of the exact numbers (maybe someone can post them) but units sold with the Steptronic far out number the units sold with the SMG. For the most part, IMHO a majority of potential 6 series buyers view the M6 as a enhanced more powerful/agile version of the 645 soon-to-be 650. I think it is reasonable to assume, based on 645 data, that the automatic may have wider appeal over a manual tranny to the general population that would consider a 645/M6. If you take 645 sales as anecdotal evidence, one could certianly argue that point.

To say flat out that automatic M's are not what buyers want, in my opinion you begin to lose some credibility, or at least objectivity on this subject. In fact, this is why I brought up this discussion in the first place. There seemed to be so many posts that longed for a manual in the M6, while I think it's quite feasable, and most probable, that the auto tranny would/could be the "longed" for tranny by the entire universe of potential M6 buyers, not just the very small percentage of M6 buyers represented on this or other boards who clearly don't want it.

Don't be blinded by your love of the ///M.
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2005, 01:49 PM
drallafi drallafi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RONAN
I will take my soon-to-be-obsolete and only reasonably competent skills and get the shift car, and will think about SMG or DSG next time.
Not me. One bout with SMG was more than enough. I'll be driving sticks till the day I die (or get too old to care).
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  #31  
Old 05-25-2005, 02:19 PM
Stuka Stuka is offline
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It's simple really, if one is not coordinated enough to operate a car with three pedals that, heaven forbid, one has to select a gear and use one's brain to drive, there is a big world of poseur friendly cars for people with this handicap.

The M6 doesn't need to be that. Why should they when they can and will sell every single M6 with SMG, which has some performance merit, than a slushbox that has no performance merit.

Again, if BMW can sell every single M car without resorting to neutering it with a poseur friendly gearbox, why should they?

There are plenty of GT cars out there for the inept drivers, the M6 doesn't need to play that game. Besides, the Bentley Continental has more bling factor anyway.
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Last edited by Stuka; 05-25-2005 at 05:06 PM.
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  #32  
Old 05-25-2005, 02:50 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
.... In the these high end price point cars people want the best and that does not include manual transmissions.
I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:26 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this.
You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I would think a moderator would be a promoter of people sharing their opinions as long as it is done in a thoughtful and respectful way.

Shame on you Alex, I would expect better from you. "no rolleyes"
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  #34  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:33 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I would think a moderator would be a promoter of people sharing their opinions as long as it is done in a thoughtful and respectful way.

Shame on you Alex, I would expect better from you. "no rolleyes"
And I would expect better from you instead of a broad statement like "all you manual drivers suck, because it's not the best".

Who are you to judge that manual transmissions are the worst choice?

Don't give me an attitude, I didn't disrespect anyone. If you don't want to hear opinions, then don't post.
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  #35  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this.


Too bad TD isn't still around to post in this thread...that would have been a hoot!
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  #36  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:42 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
It's simple really, if you are not coordinated enough to operate a car with three pedals that, heaven forbid, you have to select a gear and use your brain to drive, there is a big world of poseur friendly cars for you.

The M6 doesn't need to be that. Why should they when they can and will sell every single M6 with SMG, which has some performance merit, than a slushbox that has no performance merit.

Again, if BMW can sell every single M car without resorting to neutering it with a poseur friendly gearbox, why should they?

There are plenty of GT cars out there for the inept drivers, the M6 doesn't need to play that game. Besides, the Bentley Continental has more bling factor anyway.
I wondered how long it would take for someone to make a personal attack.

So now I'm not coordinated enough for three pedals, I'm inept and a poseur...all because I would consider an automatic in an M6?

Come on Stuka, we're just talking about tranny possibilities. It's not like I'm attacking anyone personally here. Raise the bar a little.
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  #37  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
SpeedFreak,

I agree that they really don't need to broaden the appeal of the M's and quite frankly I hope they don't. If I wanted a car to be seen in and one that is seen everywhere I'd go for the Benz as F1Cracy suggested that I do.

The comment by F1Crazy "the M division's primary consumer purpose is to build street legal race cars that we can buy for a reasonable price" First off, if one thinks the M6 is a street legal race car they have seriously got to be joking. This thing is as close to a race car as my X5 is. If you have ever driven a "streetable" race car or any race car on the street you'll know what I am talking about. They are loud, low, and so stiff that are very undesirable as a truly streetable machine. No, the M6 is a fat, fast GT cruiser with catagory leading drivability. 99% of the buyers won't even think about taking them to the track and as such, a manual transmission is way out of place on this car, which has been my discussion point all along. ie., if BMW were to offer an optional tranny to the SMG, the automatic is much more fitting for this car than the manual, and IMHO would out sell the manual by a wide wide margin, much to the chagrin of oldtimers and purists.

I'm just the "antichrist", that would definately consider an automatic on the M6. A manual on a M3 or some other car that can be thrown around a bit, now that's a different story, of course the SMG would always be the superior choice in those cases.
Hey there Max... I think I was bouncing off of F1 but those were mostly my words... I look at the M3 CSL as one extreme in the M division and the M5 as the other. I never equated the M6 to a tubed chassis carbon fiber exotic with a plate strapped on... even the M1 had power window and such. It's performance first and comfort second... it just so happens that the ability to have both has gotten pretty damn good these days. I would never say 99%... especially with Auto-X so freakin popular... I would say 60-70% will do some kind of track like event in their car. I can also tell you... dealing with hundreds of request for the M6 for the last 2 years... NEVER ONCE has a single person asked for or expressed interest in an Auto M6... until this thread. With that being said, Max... I FULLY respect and appreciate your opinion... I also respectfully disagree. I think it would be appropriate to start a thread that actually polls this forum of thousands to see how many would actually be interested in Auto-Ms. I think it would be very interesting indeed.
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  #38  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:54 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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"And I would expect better from you instead of a broad statement like "all you manual drivers suck, because it's not the best".

I never said "all manual drivers suck" I said nothing even remotely close to that, nor do I think that. Please show me where I said that. Hell I drive a manual in my little Cooper S and it's a hoot, and I would never have an automatic in that car.

"Who are you to judge that manual transmissions are the worst choice?"

....on a M6. It's just my opinion, wrong, or right. I think you said it best, "If you don't want to hear opinions, then don't post."
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  #39  
Old 05-25-2005, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Crazy
The focus here is performance and efficiency and this is one of the reasons we'll never see automatic transmission on M car.
Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3.
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  #40  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:00 PM
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Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3.
That was a deviation that proves the point many of us here are making. That move by BMW was proven to be a really bad one... which is why you have not seen it repeated.
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  #41  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:14 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Hey there Max... I think I was bouncing off of F1 but those were mostly my words... I look at the M3 CSL as one extreme in the M division and the M5 as the other. I never equated the M6 to a tubed chassis carbon fiber exotic with a plate strapped on... even the M1 had power window and such. It's performance first and comfort second... it just so happens that the ability to have both has gotten pretty damn good these days. I would never say 99%... especially with Auto-X so freakin popular... I would say 60-70% will do some kind of track like event in their car. I can also tell you... dealing with hundreds of request for the M6 for the last 2 years... NEVER ONCE has a single person asked for or expressed interest in an Auto M6... until this thread. With that being said, Max... I FULLY respect and appreciate your opinion... I also respectfully disagree. I think it would be appropriate to start a thread that actually polls this forum of thousands to see how many would actually be interested in Auto-Ms. I think it would be very interesting indeed.
Hey there Speed,

A poll would be intertesting that's for sure. Although a poll of people who take the time to post on these sorts of boards might be somewhat biased to start, but at least it would be something. I think the potential person that might buy a M6 with an automatic doesn't even know it. It would be the guy that walks into the dealer looking for a luxury 5 or 7 series and sees this kicka$$ M6er. He may not consider a Manual or SMG, but with an auto, it becomes a possibility?

Back in1998/1999 when the 996 was just coming out, Porsche made a statement something to the effect that the 996 was more mainstream tapping into a different markets like jag, and others, I can't remember exactly. Has BMW made any statements about who the target is for the M6. At $100K+ a copy is it a 7 series buyer with a wild hair or a 3 series buyer stepping up? Or someone else?

Who is the target? Has BMW commented on this?
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  #42  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:21 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
That was a deviation that proves the point many of us here are making. That move by BMW was proven to be a really bad one... which is why you have not seen it repeated.
I think the M3 buyer is a completely different demographic that the M6 buyer. One costs $50K the other $100K. The M3 is a fun trackable car and I don't think you'll see the M6 on the track nearly as much.

Apples and oranges and not a good comparison, of course IMHO.
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  #43  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:30 PM
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I dont know, Im starting to think this Max guy is a troll. He comes to an enthusiast website and attacks the fundementals of an enthusiast's wet dream.

Automatic tranny is not the ONLY amenity left out of the new M6 equation. Active stearing: GONE, NAV? GONE, Sunroof? GONE.

The small numbers of the new M6 are probably already spoken for. No need to make them more appealing to the LA commute drivers.

If they are going to add an automatic to the M6, they might as well take the M badge off. Or better yet, Max can just apply an M6 badge to his 645. Only an enthusiast will know the difference anyway.
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  #44  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:41 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Originally Posted by misterlance
I dont know, Im starting to think this Max guy is a troll. He comes to an enthusiast website and attacks the fundementals of an enthusiast's wet dream.

Automatic tranny is not the ONLY amenity left out of the new M6 equation. Active stearing: GONE, NAV? GONE, Sunroof? GONE.

The small numbers of the new M6 are probably already spoken for. No need to make them more appealing to the LA commute drivers.

If they are going to add an automatic to the M6, they might as well take the M badge off. Or better yet, Max can just apply an M6 badge to his 645. Only an enthusiast will know the difference anyway.
LOL!! Good one. I'm no troll, just making conversation and offering an alternative perspective. Maybe I should pipe down, because when it comes to wet dreams, we have got to draw the line !!

When I get my M6, I'd be more inclined to take off the M6 badge and replace it with the 650 badge! In reality though, I'll probably leave the M6 badge on. It will be a great car, one that I will be proud to own.

Last edited by MaxTimeOff; 05-25-2005 at 04:44 PM.
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  #45  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:46 PM
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Vote people... VOTE! Gas many to voice their opinion as possible. This could be very interesting.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99194
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  #46  
Old 05-25-2005, 04:56 PM
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When X5 4.6is was first introduced I've read an interview with one of the BMW managers and he was asked why they didn't simply produce M version of the X5. I'm gonna have to dig it out but he was explaining very clearly what M cars stand for, even 4 wheel drive disqualified the car.

MaxTimeOff, people don't buy cars like M6 off the sales floor, at least not many. If you're buying M car for performance and driving pleasure you don't even think about getting automatic, and if you're buying it for the ///M badge you want manual anyway because it's a part of the appeal, it makes you look so much more cool.
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  #47  
Old 05-25-2005, 05:05 PM
Stuka Stuka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
I wondered how long it would take for someone to make a personal attack.

So now I'm not coordinated enough for three pedals, I'm inept and a poseur...all because I would consider an automatic in an M6?

Come on Stuka, we're just talking about tranny possibilities. It's not like I'm attacking anyone personally here. Raise the bar a little.
Take it personally if you will, I don't care.

But, my post has been modified to use "one" insted of "you."
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  #48  
Old 05-25-2005, 05:08 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Vote people... VOTE! Gas many to voice their opinion as possible. This could be very interesting.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99194
Speed......How many times can I vote ??? Just kidding!

I would expect it to be heavily weighted towards the aficionado and purist perspective as that is the audience we are generally addressing. This will be fun never-the-less.

Last time I checked the poll there were two of us, after my vote of course!!

Max

Last edited by MaxTimeOff; 05-25-2005 at 05:19 PM.
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  #49  
Old 05-25-2005, 05:09 PM
Stuka Stuka is offline
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Originally Posted by TD330ci
Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3.
And people dumb enough to get one with it take a bath on the resale. I should know, an expensive 8 months lesson.
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  #50  
Old 05-25-2005, 05:18 PM
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And people dumb enough to get one with it take a bath on the resale. I should know, an expensive 8 months lesson.
Stuka, say it ain't so. YOU bought an E36 M3 slushie?
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