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View Poll Results: What Transmission would you want in your M6?
1.) Manual 75 46.30%
2.) SMG 61 37.65%
3.) Automatic 24 14.81%
4.) CVT (Hybrid Auto) 2 1.23%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 05-27-2005, 05:01 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
Shouldn't you go to bed before you really make a bigger fool of yourself?

Yes, but before going to the bed, I just want to add a final value and say that automatic trannies have no place in an ///M car.
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  #27  
Old 05-27-2005, 05:10 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
Yes, but before going to the bed, I just want to add a final value and say that automatic trannies have no place in an ///M car.
Now that's probably the best comment you have made in this whole thread. While I disagree with you (in the case of the M6), I truly respect your opinion.
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  #28  
Old 05-27-2005, 05:37 PM
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Matthew330Ci Matthew330Ci is offline
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using traffic as an excuse for an auto tranny.
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  #29  
Old 05-27-2005, 05:57 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
Now that's probably the best comment you have made in this whole thread. While I disagree with you (in the case of the M6), I truly respect your opinion.
You can disagree until the next ice age, but it won't change the fact that the M division follows a different philosophy than their standard models.

Below are 2 interviews with Ulrich Bruhnke, President of BMW M-GmbH. Read and see what he's saying about the typical characteristics of an M car. For the american market there will be even a manual transmission option on the E60M5 soon, read - a manual, not an automatic.

Do you think that we are wiser than the company itself, which is producing cars to make money?

Anyway, here are the articles. Have fun reading them.

http://www.automobilemag.com/q_and_a...lrich_bruhnke/

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/st...E21822,00.html

Do you know where Mr Bruhnke is coming from? If not, do a Google search.
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  #30  
Old 05-27-2005, 07:12 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew330Ci
using traffic as an excuse for an auto tranny.
Excuse, what excuse? I don't even drive the freeways on a "commute" basis.

This post......

"The fact is, maybe someone wants the power/handling/prestige of the M6 but works 12 hours a day and on occasion wants to take the M6 to work and maybe just doesn't feel like shifting in commute traffic! Yea yea I know, SMG in auto mode may fit the bill, but that's not the point here. It's not like you're required to have in your posession a flame retardant suite, Sparco gloves and shoes, and a helmut before you are allowed to buy an M6!"

....was purly hypothetical, your mileage may vary It was merely presented to highlight the fact that different people may have different needs, believe it or not!

And thankfully, I haven't worked a 12 hour day in a very long time....MaxTimeOff !!
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  #31  
Old 05-28-2005, 09:09 PM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew330Ci
using traffic as an excuse for an auto tranny.
It's all about sales, and SMG is a marketing ploy. If you look at cars like the Porsche 911, Corvette, etc you quickly see that a majority of their sales are automatics. BMW marketing isn't dumb and realized that by offering manual only they were missing a golden opportunity to grow sales. However after such freverent degredation of the Automatic transmission how could they justify the product that the market demanded?

SMG was an obvious solution to their dillema. It gave those that wanted an M car but wanted an Automatic a way of getting that transmission on a clear conscience. Look at M3 sales now and a majority are SMG equiped. Good move for BMW, they now have an automatic solution to meet market demand that is "true to ther philosophy".

Now I've seen the argument that "SMG" is a trickle down from Formula 1 technology. ....maybe in concept only but not in terms of actual tech, the SMGII tranny used in the M3 bares no commonality with the F1 gearboxand has more in common with a Muncie 4-speed found in a 1970 Chevy Nova than it does with the F1 tranny.

Whether you like the SMG solution is a matter of taste. For me it's the fun of an automatic combined with the Hassel of a manual so it's really the worst of both worlds. Were I to want an automatic gear shifting solution, I'd take an automatic over an SMG. Maybe the technology will be better on the new M5/M6, but if it feels the same as the SMGII in the M3, then it's not going to be for me.

Saying SMG is a marketing ploy will offend many folks here I'm sure, but take one look at the name and you can that is the case. SMG stands for Sequential Manual Gearbox. The SMGII on the M3 isn't Sequential, it's a "mechanical automation system" that fits on a standard non-sequential ZF 6-speed. The Tranny in my CBR-600RR is Sequential, the M3's isn't. (or more precisely it's a non-sequential tranny that has been forced into sequential gear selection only).

-Adam
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  #32  
Old 05-28-2005, 09:16 PM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
You can disagree until the next ice age, but it won't change the fact that the M division follows a different philosophy than their standard models.
I find it hard to argue the "sporting purity" of a car that weighs nearly 4,000 lbs.

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  #33  
Old 05-28-2005, 10:24 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
BMW marketing isn't dumb and realized that by offering manual only they were missing a golden opportunity to grow sales. However after such freverent degredation of the Automatic transmission how could they justify the product that the market demanded?

-Adam
Come on Adam, you can read the posts. BMW doesn't want to sell more ///M's, they sell out all they can build so why would they want to offer a transmission in an M6 that would have a much larger market appeal?? The BMW M group should only build ///M cars with manual transmissions. Afterall, we have MB AMG that can build cars for everyone else!!! By a Vette or a Continental GT if you want anything but a manual transmission, or better yet, put a M6 badge on the Hyundai, only enthusiasts will know

Spoken like a true automotive CEO.
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  #34  
Old 05-29-2005, 04:10 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
I find it hard to argue the "sporting purity" of a car that weighs nearly 4,000 lbs.

-Adam
Adam, it's not your typical driving-between-the-cones car, but on the track and in straight line it can upset a lot of cars, which are considered as 'pure' sports cars.

I agree that it's not lightweight, at least it's not a Lotus or Donkervoort. But do they aim the same target market? I don't think so.

It is also correct that the SMG offered has very few common with the F1 gearboxes, but the idea and principle is almost the same. The core of the concept is that it is a manual transmission and it doesn't come with a torque converter. Is this a bad thing both for BMW and the customer? Do we really want an F1 gearbox in a street car that would cost almost as much as a brand new 330i?

And those, who thinks that the M6 is an M5 in a 6-Series body, are fooling themselves. A recent interview with the managing director after a road test revealed that the M6 have been purposely set up sharper and sportier than an M5 on purpose.

Anyway, I don't know why we are sitting here and writing hate tyriads against the M guys as if they are doing a bad thing.
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  #35  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:19 AM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
Anyway, I don't know why we are sitting here and writing hate tyriads against the M guys as if they are doing a bad thing.
I'm not sure it was a "hate tyraid" that was posted by Adam. It was more like an opinion. Alex, do you know the difference between a hate tyraid and an opinion ?
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:42 AM
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I voted SMG because that is most likely how I would equip mine if I had the choice (of transmissions and buying one in the first place - M5 for me thanks). I think it should be offered with SMG or three pedals. An auto would be unacceptable. I agree - go for the Vette if you want that kind of car with an auto....or maybe Alpina will make one
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:51 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
Adam, it's not your typical driving-between-the-cones car, but on the track and in straight line it can upset a lot of cars, which are considered as 'pure' sports cars.
Oh I agree that the performance of the M6 is most impressive, but beating a `pure' sports car around teh track doesn't make your vehicle a sports car itself. I'm sure a Turbo-Cayenne SUV will upset quite a few `pure' sports cars as well, but at the end of the day it's still a truck. And something like a Sunbeam Tiger or an Alfa Romeo Spider, though slow are neither SUV's nor Grand Touring cars.
Quote:
I agree that it's not lightweight, at least it's not a Lotus or Donkervoort. But do they aim the same target market? I don't think so.
4000 lbs in more in line with a Turck or 1970's erra Cadillac than a modern performance vehicle. Dimensionally the M6 is similar to my dinosaur of a car the Trans Am, yet it weighs 600 pounds more despite the fact the TA also has a rear seat and larger boot.

As the owner of a likewise heavy M3, I know BMW loads the cars down with many needed convience and luxury features which is part of the reason I bought the M3, but I'm not going to dillude myself into thinking it's a "pure sports car".

The M3 and M6 are fine performance automobiles, but they are Race-able Sedans and Coupes, not streetable race cars.

Quote:
It is also correct that the SMG offered has very few common with the F1 gearboxes, but the idea and principle is almost the same. The core of the concept is that it is a manual transmission and it doesn't come with a torque converter. Is this a bad thing both for BMW and the customer? Do we really want an F1 gearbox in a street car that would cost almost as much as a brand new 330i?
But lack of a torque converter is why the SMG makes street driving difficult. From my admitidly little exposure to SMG (6 E46 M3 SMGIIs driven over 50 miles) I found the SMG only became a smooth transmission under all out driving. Under real street driving, a world of slow cars in the fast lane, stop lights and unpredictable conditions, I found the SMG fell short. Mainly because it doesn't have any clutch finess, it's a digital ON/OFF switch that doesn't have the ability to anticipate turn to turn how much finess is needed, or if I'm coasting to a complete stop at a light or coasting down to hit a hair pin.

A Torque converter is a street solution that buying softening the engagement (and also giving your torque multiplication by keeping the revs high) it naturally is more applicable for street driving. Where the human is no longer in control of shift engement.

Maybe the technology will mature, I just don't find it there yet. And like most other racing technologies for the track I don't find them a very graceful solution on the street. You know R-Compund race-rubber is also a track technology, but in varying conditions of the street and needs of the driver, it really doesn't make much sense to equip an M6 with R-compund rubber either.

Quote:
And those, who thinks that the M6 is an M5 in a 6-Series body, are fooling themselves. A recent interview with the managing director after a road test revealed that the M6 have been purposely set up sharper and sportier than an M5 on purpose.

Anyway, I don't know why we are sitting here and writing hate tyriads against the M guys as if they are doing a bad thing.
I apologize if you have interpretted my critical analysis of BMW's marketing decision as a "hate tirade", but I feel it's a point of view that needs to beconsidered even if youdo find it's implications distatesful.
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:57 AM
Cliff Cliff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXE39
I agree - go for the Vette if you want that kind of car with an auto....
A regular Vette is not an analogue to an M car, and the Z06 is manual only. An AMG Benz would be a more natural automatic-equipped comparison.
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  #39  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jetstream23
Yeah, and get rid of the power steering too!
If you think that's bad, try to imagine a "motorsports" car with I-Drive.
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  #40  
Old 05-29-2005, 11:37 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Oh I agree that the performance of the M6 is most impressive, but beating a `pure' sports car around teh track doesn't make your vehicle a sports car itself. I'm sure a Turbo-Cayenne SUV will upset quite a few `pure' sports cars as well, but at the end of the day it's still a truck. And something like a Sunbeam Tiger or an Alfa Romeo Spider, though slow are neither SUV's nor Grand Touring cars.
4000 lbs in more in line with a Turck or 1970's erra Cadillac than a modern performance vehicle. Dimensionally the M6 is similar to my dinosaur of a car the Trans Am, yet it weighs 600 pounds more despite the fact the TA also has a rear seat and larger boot.

As the owner of a likewise heavy M3, I know BMW loads the cars down with many needed convience and luxury features which is part of the reason I bought the M3, but I'm not going to dillude myself into thinking it's a "pure sports car".

The M3 and M6 are fine performance automobiles, but they are Race-able Sedans and Coupes, not streetable race cars.

But lack of a torque converter is why the SMG makes street driving difficult. From my admitidly little exposure to SMG (6 E46 M3 SMGIIs driven over 50 miles) I found the SMG only became a smooth transmission under all out driving. Under real street driving, a world of slow cars in the fast lane, stop lights and unpredictable conditions, I found the SMG fell short. Mainly because it doesn't have any clutch finess, it's a digital ON/OFF switch that doesn't have the ability to anticipate turn to turn how much finess is needed, or if I'm coasting to a complete stop at a light or coasting down to hit a hair pin.

A Torque converter is a street solution that buying softening the engagement (and also giving your torque multiplication by keeping the revs high) it naturally is more applicable for street driving. Where the human is no longer in control of shift engement.

Maybe the technology will mature, I just don't find it there yet. And like most other racing technologies for the track I don't find them a very graceful solution on the street. You know R-Compund race-rubber is also a track technology, but in varying conditions of the street and needs of the driver, it really doesn't make much sense to equip an M6 with R-compund rubber either.

I apologize if you have interpretted my critical analysis of BMW's marketing decision as a "hate tirade", but I feel it's a point of view that needs to beconsidered even if youdo find it's implications distatesful.

I didn't imply that your post was a hate tyraid, if it came that way, I apologize, it wasn't my intention. It was to point out the general negative approach here to BMW's corporate decisions.

Adam, I totally agree that the M6 is not and have never been considered as a sports car, it's a Grand Tourer. This is even in the official press release, namely " ...the new M6 combines supercar presence with Grand Touring potential".

That said, we have quite a number of discussions about the definition of sports cars, but unfortunately we all failed to reach a consensus (can be found in the archives) We even bashed Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Corvettes etc. It was quite an effort

As for the SMG being difficult in street use, this is correct as well. And this, again, have been acknowledged by the person, who was (is) in charge of the gearbox development at BMW. He said 'those who are seeking a comfortable shifting are better served with our Steptronic' This was on the BMW Group corporate site under the Technology & Innovation section.

I know, we are all longing for a stripped down, mass production, street-legal 2000lbs track car with 5-star crash ratings. I'm confident that BMW is capable of building a car like this, but the question is how much it would cost and without all the options if BMW could run any profit at all.
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  #41  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:06 PM
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TXE39 TXE39 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff3
A regular Vette is not an analogue to an M car
I disagree. I think sometimes we might be giving the M disvision a little more credit than it's worth. I realize we're BMW enthusiasts here, but I know plenty of people who would consider buying a Vette or an M model. I know I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff3
and the Z06 is manual only.
Okay...so this discussion could lead to "Should the Z06 be offered with an automatic?" AFAIK the M6 won't have an auto either - or have I missed something in BMW's literature or in a previous post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff3
An AMG Benz would be a more natural automatic-equipped comparison.
I'll agree with that. But AMG sucks. I've driven all of them and they really do suck
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  #42  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:42 PM
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why don't they offer both the slushbox and manual and please all audiences?
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  #43  
Old 05-29-2005, 09:32 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3_man
why don't they offer both the slushbox and manual and please all audiences?
You got it!!
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  #44  
Old 05-30-2005, 12:17 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff3
A regular Vette is not an analogue to an M car, and the Z06 is manual only. An AMG Benz would be a more natural automatic-equipped comparison.
The C5 Z06 was Manual only because of the torque the motor puts out. The only tranny GM has that can handle that much power is the 4L80E which weighs a good 150 pounds more than the 4L60E. They are comming out with a 6-speed automatic on the base Vette next year, but I don't think it's rated high enough to handle the new 427 cu.i engine in the C6 Z06 either.
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  #45  
Old 05-30-2005, 01:11 AM
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OK People... THIS whole SMG bashing thing is getting out of hand. Quite frankly... that part of the discussion is pissing me off (typing with a smile ). Here's why: in just about every account I find the person doing the bashing is a person who has logged MAYBE 50 miles on the SMG and is in NO way in a position to actually judge SMG and it's operation. IF we were talking about the "consumer" version in the normal cars (non-M) then I would agree. It's to freakin slow and is to difficult to work "Steptronically" smooth. But we're not. We are talking about the M version... which, I must say... in the hands of a talented and experienced driver can be operated as smooth as a steptronic... PERIOD. Rather then flame my post... get your disagreeable ass on a plane and come drive one with me... I would be happy to PROVE this point. The number one problem is that MOST American's that I find complaining about SMG are to quick to judge or to lazy to learn or some combo of the two. It's easier to bitch and moan over a NEW technology then to deal with the learning curve. SMG is so freeeakin superior to EVERY OTHER possible alternative (In a performance car setting, of course) that the engineers who design and build these things must be shaking their brilliant heads in disbelief. Equipped with the SMG, I would drive freakin circles around ANY one and their 6MT... and isn't that really the issue here... performance? OK, so I thought it was... my bad.
And by the way... there is a Mother Load of a difference between 4000 and 3800 pounds... do we even have a TRUE exact number on the production weight yet? I know you do over there in Europe, but they won't give us a number for the US yet. By the way, dude... a TRUCK is more like 6000 pounds...
Good Grief...
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  #46  
Old 05-30-2005, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3_man
why don't they offer both the slushbox and manual and please all audiences?
Simple answer... (I luv yah Max )... because the slushbox audience isn't their audience. Sooo, by offering the manual and the SMG they ARE pleasing ALL of THEIR audience... and isn't that really the issue here any way?

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  #47  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
Here in the States, good or bad, the M6 will mostly be used as a "luxury cruiser" it will see very little track time.


Max
MISused you mean...
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  #48  
Old 05-30-2005, 05:48 AM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Simple answer... (I luv yah Max )... because the slushbox audience isn't their audience. Sooo, by offering the manual and the SMG they ARE pleasing ALL of THEIR audience... and isn't that really the issue here any way?

Call me crazy , but anytime a company has the opportunity to expand their product to a broader market (audience) I think it is generally a good thing to do. Sales growth and larger market share are a good thing...look at GM as a good example of not doing that.

I agree with Shinkaze who stated that the SMG was an effective way to broaden the appeal of their M product. Now, IF BMW wanted to increase their net M6 marketshare further, a steptronic offering would do that. I say "net" because it would piss off the purists and oldtimers and they could lose some of them, but gains with new customers would far out number any losses which is the name of the game for any for-profit company. Remember, I am not saying that BMW should stop offering the manual in the M6, no matter how inappropriate I think it is for THAT M car.
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  #49  
Old 05-30-2005, 06:35 AM
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tierfreund tierfreund is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Drove 6-SMG M3's over the course of 50 miles or so in test drives before I finally gave up on SMG. I*REALLY* REALLY wanted to love SMG and though I would, but the reality wasn't as good as the fantasy.
50 miles? It took me about 5000 to get the real hang of SMG. Then I loved it dearly. 50 miles really is not enough. Imagine never having driven a stick before, only auto. Then after 50 miles in a stick youīd be far from happy. Allright SMG is slightly less to learn than full stick, but you still need quite some time to find out how to get the most of it. But then, it really is the best...

Oh and what I REALLY donīt get is people saying SMG is too jerky. Itīs only jerky if you drive it like a slush. BMW at least should have left out the auto/cruise-mode, Then there wouldnīt be so much misunderstanding about that box. Once you understand how it works, itīs acutally LESS jerky than either auto or stick. If I were a chauffeur, Iīd actually want a car with SMG because you can bring it to a complete standstill without any backlash (difficult with an auto) AND up- and downshift perfectly smooth. Iīm pretty darn good at shifting when I have to (and I currently have to since my SMG-car was stolen and the rental is stick, as will be the E90 I have on order since SMG is not available), but in everyday driving, the pleasure of SMG was mostly the effortless smoothness in my driving I could get from it. AND the ultra fast shifts when I was pushing it.

Youīve really gotta give SMG some credit. And mostly some time and effort. You gotta learn how to drive it, then itīs the second best tranny out there (the best is a double-clutch automated box a la DSG)

I believe at the heart of this discussion lies a specialty of the M6:
It really doesnīt fit into any current definition.
Itīs too big and (despite all the CF) too heavy to qualify as a sports car or a track car. And yet, it certainly is not luxury cruiser either, itīs way to nervous for that. Fire it up just once and hear the engine at idle and youīll know, having that car cruise at a steady pace is like using a sherman tank for mowing the lawn.
Itīs an M6 and is therefore either the perfect all-round two door or unsatisfactory for all tasks, depending how you look at it.

And beeing bought by the wrong people for the wrong reasons is something the M6 will share with may very expensive sports cars. How many Ferrari V12 are being driven in anger? How many Bugatti Veyron will be driven at all? Unfortunately the money for the big engines usually only arrives after the ability to use them has withered.

Btw. I really donīt get the beef with Alexīs comments. I find nothing offending or annoying in them. Just a stated opinion. And this is not just one Kraut siding with another. Take a look at other posts from Alex in other threads and youīll find him always kind, polite, helpfull and knowledgable. As good a moderator as they come and certainly entitled to an opinion as everyone else.
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Last edited by tierfreund; 05-30-2005 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 05-30-2005, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
"luxury GT cruiser" ? An M6?

645 is a luxury cruiser and available with step

An M6 is a 8200rpm carbonfiber roof, get out of my way, high-strung sports machine. Donīt be fooled by the relatively harmless apperance.

That baby is one serious machine.

It even has bumper mounts made out of carbon fibre (not even visible, so certainly not for show) just to bring weight down and move the center of mass inwards.

Drive one and youīll see: Manual might be argued for (if not by me) but step would be absurd.
To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?
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