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View Poll Results: What Transmission would you want in your M6?
1.) Manual 75 46.30%
2.) SMG 61 37.65%
3.) Automatic 24 14.81%
4.) CVT (Hybrid Auto) 2 1.23%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 05-30-2005, 07:32 AM
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rost12 rost12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
Btw. I really don´t get the beef with Alex´s comments.
^^^^^

I really don't care about this discussion or any of the arguments... No true slushboxes in M cars and SMG is not a slushbox. Those two statements are axiomatic Done.

But barking at AlexB for reasons that I fail to see... Listen to the man and learn from him, you wee little man.
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  #52  
Old 05-30-2005, 07:35 AM
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rost12 rost12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?
Not saying that 6 pot Brembo's wouldn't be nice, but can we wait till the car is beaten around the track first? I haven't seen anything bad being said about the brakes yet, maybe they made some improvements
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:01 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
OK People... THIS whole SMG bashing thing is getting out of hand. Quite frankly... that part of the discussion is pissing me off (typing with a smile ). Here's why: in just about every account I find the person doing the bashing is a person who has logged MAYBE 50 miles on the SMG and is in NO way in a position to actually judge SMG and it's operation.
I guess that was directed at me, but FWIW You could look at it that way, or you could say after a real effort to give SMG a chance (50 miles in 6 SMG M3 cars) I decided I was not going to enjoy an SMG car as much as a Stick and Clutch.
Quote:
as smooth as a steptronic... PERIOD. Rather then flame my post... get your disagreeable ass on a plane and come drive one with me... I would be happy to PROVE this point.
While I'm sure you have become a talented SMG driver, it's physically impossible for a clutched drivetrain to match a hydralic system (Torque converter) for smoothness. However it's that disconnection that makes a clutched drivetrain the enthusiast choice. That said Mercedes has come a long way with their 7-speed Automatic which both offers an on/off mechanical linkage in addition to the torque converter, as well as the ability to skip gears as needed. Still I like to row my own, so that doesn't really appeal to me either.
Quote:
The number one problem is that MOST American's that I find complaining about SMG are to quick to judge or to lazy to learn or some combo of the two. It's easier to bitch and moan over a NEW technology then to deal with the learning curve.
So you're saying that the reason people don't love SMG is because they're lazy? Dunno about that, a clutch pedal and stick are more taxing to operate. No I drove the SMG cars and could instantly tell that it wasn't for me. It would have been nice for my wife since she can't drive stick and can drive SMG, but to be honest it took the pleasure out of the manual experience for me, so I decided against it.
Quote:
SMG is so freeeakin superior to EVERY OTHER possible alternative (In a performance car setting, of course) that the engineers who design and build these things must be shaking their brilliant heads in disbelief. Equipped with the SMG, I would drive freakin circles around ANY one and their 6MT... and isn't that really the issue here... performance? OK, so I thought it was... my bad.
Thats all debateable. Maybe it should be said that *you* are more profiecient at driving an SMG than a true manual.

For me the #1 shortcoming of SMG was the inability to anticipate proper clutch modulation in street driving. that is, the unit doesn't know if you're slowing down for a stop light, or a hard turn were you need to hold revs. Sure you have a jog dial to adjust shift speed, but it's impractical to adjust it corner to corner, traffic light to traffic light.

I live in Atlanta, lots of hills, no grid system whatsoever, so the ability to apply as much or little finesse into the clutch as needed corner to corner in street driving is very neccessary for smooth operation.

Besides, my M3 isn't a race car, it's a sporty coupe, so it's more about driving pleasure than knocking seconds off a clock (have my Motorcycle for that), and at the end of the day the SMG just simply wasn't any fun for me. (My opinion of course YMMV)
Quote:
And by the way... there is a Mother Load of a difference between 4000 and 3800 pounds... do we even have a TRUE exact number on the production weight yet? I know you do over there in Europe, but they won't give us a number for the US yet. By the way, dude... a TRUCK is more like 6000 pounds...
Good Grief...
1,785 kilograms = 3,935.25138 pounds That's a heavy tank of a car. Actually that's almost exactly the same as a Ford Crown Victoria. (just 65 pounds off actually)



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  #54  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:11 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
50 miles? It took me about 5000 to get the real hang of SMG. Then I loved it dearly. 50 miles really is not enough. Imagine never having driven a stick before, only auto. Then after 50 miles in a stick you´d be far from happy. Allright SMG is slightly less to learn than full stick, but you still need quite some time to find out how to get the most of it. But then, it really is the best...
Maybe I'm just old and cranky, but if it takes me 5000 miles to learn to enjoy a car I'll go look at another brand.
Quote:
You´ve really gotta give SMG some credit. And mostly some time and effort. You gotta learn how to drive it, then it´s the second best tranny out there (the best is a double-clutch automated box a la DSG)
HAve to admit the DSG looks promising, haven't driven one yet though.
Quote:
I believe at the heart of this discussion lies a specialty of the M6:
Quote:
It really doesn´t fit into any current definition.
It´s too big and (despite all the CF) too heavy to qualify as a sports car or a track car. And yet, it certainly is not luxury cruiser either, it´s way to nervous for that. Fire it up just once and hear the engine at idle and you´ll know, having that car cruise at a steady pace is like using a sherman tank for mowing the lawn.
It´s an M6 and is therefore either the perfect all-round two door or unsatisfactory for all tasks, depending how you look at it.

And beeing bought by the wrong people for the wrong reasons is something the M6 will share with may very expensive sports cars. How many Ferrari V12 are being driven in anger? How many Bugatti Veyron will be driven at all? Unfortunately the money for the big engines usually only arrives after the ability to use them has withered.

Btw. I really don´t get the beef with Alex´s comments. I find nothing offending or annoying in them. Just a stated opinion. And this is not just one Kraut siding with another. Take a look at other posts from Alex in other threads and you´ll find him always kind, polite, helpfull and knowledgable. As good a moderator as they come and certainly entitled to an opinion as everyone else.
BMW has been very effective in protecting their brand identity, so the M6 is the answer to the question, what would a BMW Grand Touring coupe be like? So think GT cars like the Mercedes CL55, Jaguar XKR, etc etc. Rather than Performance Cars liek the 911, F430, Z06, etc etc. However the performance is so good on the M6, it probably will perform like the later category, rather than the former.

The E39 M5 was the same way, it was a Luxury Sedan that performed like a Sports Car, and in doing so created a nice little niche for itself. I'm sure BMW hopes for the same with the M6.
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  #55  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:27 AM
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tierfreund tierfreund is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Maybe I'm just old and cranky, but if it takes me 5000 miles to learn to enjoy a car I'll go look at another brand.
I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly until I had the SMG experience. I´m a pretty quick learner and any thing that doesn´t come natural to me, I´m very sceptical about. That´s why I still strongly dislike I-Drive.
But 60 thousand miles on SMG have simply made me a convert. Once I learnt all the details of it and how to maximise the use of it, I could drive the car better (faster AND smoother) than with any other box. That made the long learning curve woth it for me.

But that´s just me. SMG is really a hairsplitter. Some love it (Interessingly most who have driven it for a long time do), and many just can´t be bothered. Both is fine and understandable to me.
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  #56  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rost12
^^^^^

I really don't care about this discussion or any of the arguments... No true slushboxes in M cars and SMG is not a slushbox. Those two statements are axiomatic Done.

But barking at AlexB for reasons that I fail to see... Listen to the man and learn from him, you wee little man.
I seem to be at the threshold of my understanding of the english language (which is not my mother tongue). I´m not sure what to make of that comment. Could you be so kind as to elaborate? I mostly can´t seem to make out which part refers to whom.
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  #57  
Old 05-30-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
I guess that was directed at me, but FWIW You could look at it that way, or you could say after a real effort to give SMG a chance (50 miles in 6 SMG M3 cars) I decided I was not going to enjoy an SMG car as much as a Stick and Clutch.
I know it would seem that it was directed at you... and yes I did use your number (50) but I assure you it was a reference to just about every negative post I have read in here regarding the SMG. They are all about the same as yours. I have been with countless people during their "first impression" with SMG and they are almost always exactly the same as yours. My only point is that these posts/reports are wrong. Opinion is opinion, you all have a right to have them... but they are not a true representation of life with an SMG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
While I'm sure you have become a talented SMG driver, it's physically impossible for a clutched drive train to match a hydraulic system (Torque converter) for smoothness...
Again... as I have already stated... this statement only shows your lack of true experience with the system and is not accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
So you're saying that the reason people don't love SMG is because they're lazy? Dunno about that, a clutch pedal and stick are more taxing to operate. No I drove the SMG cars and could instantly tell that it wasn't for me. It would have been nice for my wife since she can't drive stick and can drive SMG, but to be honest it took the pleasure out of the manual experience for me, so I decided against it.Thats all debateable. Maybe it should be said that *you* are more profiecient at driving an SMG than a true manual..
Yes, lazy... as in to lazy to take the time needed to learn how to use a new tool. It's true that the straight up manual is more taxing... which, again is the reason why SMG makes so much sense. It allows you to focus... as Tierfreund and Pinecone so eloquently stated... on driving smooth and perfect. I have been racing in one form or another since '86 and am quite good at a normal manual... including heel to toe techniques... for performance, SMG is a DREAM COME TRUE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
For me the #1 shortcoming of SMG was the inability to anticipate proper clutch modulation in street driving. that is, the unit doesn't know if you're slowing down for a stop light, or a hard turn were you need to hold revs. Sure you have a jog dial to adjust shift speed, but it's impractical to adjust it corner to corner, traffic light to traffic light.
Again... this only shows your lack of experience with the SMG. What you described there was a Steptronic. As the Driver using SMG... you anticipate the driving situation and needs of operation and then Drive the car accordingly. It adds a whole new dimension to driving that does not exist with the Step or the reg manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Maybe I'm just old and cranky, but if it takes me 5000 miles to learn to enjoy a car I'll go look at another brand.
With this statement... based on your post... I would have to agree whole heartedly!
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  #58  
Old 05-30-2005, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rost12
^^^^^

I really don't care about this discussion or any of the arguments... No true slushboxes in M cars and SMG is not a slushbox. Those two statements are axiomatic Done.

But barking at AlexB for reasons that I fail to see... Listen to the man and learn from him, you wee little man.
Alex is the bomb! Any one who knows Alex loves Alex!
I have enjoyed his posts for years... he is one of the finest moderators on the web.

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  #59  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:25 PM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Alex is the bomb! Any one who knows Alex loves Alex!
I have enjoyed his posts for years... he is one of the finest moderators on the web.

No need to rehash, time to move on. Suffice it to say, I guess I just don't know Alex .
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  #60  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:43 PM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
I know it would seem that it was directed at you... and yes I did use your number (50) but I assure you it was a reference to just about every negative post I have read in here regarding the SMG. They are all about the same as yours. I have been with countless people during their "first impression" with SMG and they are almost always exactly the same as yours. My only point is that these posts/reports are wrong. Opinion is opinion, you all have a right to have them... but they are not a true representation of life with an SMG.
Well I can't argue with that, but like any tool, you pick it up, see if ti makes your "job" easier or more fun, and sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong. For me, I knew paddle shifting was about as fun as paddle shifting with a Porsche tiptronic (that is, not), and decided I didn't want to spend the next "5,000" miles forcing myself to like it.
Quote:
Again... as I have already stated... this statement only shows your lack of true experience with the system and is not accurate.
No, this shows my understanding of how the system works. A clutch is a true friction based mechnical connection betweenthe motor and the tires. A Torque converter is a Hydraulic system with no mechnical connection between the tires and motor. So while you could learn how to shift an SMG as smoothly as a true manual, you're limited by mechanics when you try and shift as smoothly as an Automatic.
Quote:
Yes, lazy... as in to lazy to take the time needed to learn how to use a new tool.
That's a very limited assumption you're making here. The first time I road a motorcycle I was very bad at it, but I still was able to assess that I would enjoy it. So I bought one, have taken multiple riding classes, and am constantly learning how to focus my skills.

The SMG system too was something I thought I would like, and I gave it an honest try, but the more I drove it the less I liked it for reasons I've allready touched on.

You may be a better driver with it and enjoy your car more because of it. But I do not find it "laziness" on my part that I decided SMG was not an ideal solution for me.

This is like someone telling you that despite your initial reaction, that fat ugly chick really will make a good wife, you just won't know how good until you're married to her with three kids. I don't find it "lazy" on my part to stick with the sexy friendly girl.

Quote:
It's true that the straight up manual is more taxing... which, again is the reason why SMG makes so much sense. It allows you to focus... as Tierfreund and Pinecone so eloquently stated... on driving smooth and perfect. I have been racing in one form or another since '86 and am quite good at a normal manual... including heel to toe techniques... for performance, SMG is a DREAM COME TRUE!
Well thats just an argument for an Automatic over a manual. Since the M3 isn't a race car, driving enjoyment is paramount to me and being able to control the clutch engagement and feel the synchros meshing in my hand gives me a closer connection to the road, my car, and a more defined sense of control. The SMG doesn't give you that. Obviously not as much of a concern for your enjoyment, but it is for mine.

Quote:
Again... this only shows your lack of experience with the SMG. What you described there was a Steptronic. As the Driver using SMG... you anticipate the driving situation and needs of operation and then Drive the car accordingly. It adds a whole new dimension to driving that does not exist with the Step or the reg manual.
Okay so I'm hitting the apex of a turn and need to down shift to maintain revs, but I see there is a puddle in the road and realize for this one shift I'm going to need to be a little softer on the engagement to maintain traction. How does SMG know to do that? (i.e. vary Clutch engagement and agression turn to turn?) I don't want to mess with a little "firmness" button every time I hit new conditions that vary second to second as they often do on the street.
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  #61  
Old 05-30-2005, 07:01 PM
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rost12 rost12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
I seem to be at the threshold of my understanding of the english language (which is not my mother tongue). I´m not sure what to make of that comment. Could you be so kind as to elaborate? I mostly can´t seem to make out which part refers to whom.
My comment was not directed at you, instead I quoted your message to support it... in my own weird lil' way. Sorry for any confusion.
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  #62  
Old 05-31-2005, 02:17 AM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?
Here is what a few of the car rags had to say about the M6's braking ability:

Autocar: “Effective, just not quite up to the rest of the package”

Auto Express: “The brakes make up the final element in the M6's impressive armoury. The uprated discs and calipers provide brutal stopping power, and make the BMW a complete driver's car.”

Motoring Telegraph: “The pedal might get a bit softer after a few hard circuit laps, but stopping power doesn't change significantly and the cross-drilled compound discs are pretty much beyond criticism on the road.”

The Car Connection: "High-performance (huge) brakes with double-piston calipers are carried over from the motorsport arena and provide excellent stopping power."
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  #63  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:01 AM
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tierfreund tierfreund is offline
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Originally Posted by rost12
My comment was not directed at you, instead I quoted your message to support it... in my own weird lil' way. Sorry for any confusion.
Allrigth, thanks for clearing that up. I was allready scanning for something I might have posted to bring on a . Cause I sometimes do, you know...
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  #64  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:25 AM
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tierfreund tierfreund is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Okay so I'm hitting the apex of a turn and need to down shift to maintain revs, but I see there is a puddle in the road and realize for this one shift I'm going to need to be a little softer on the engagement to maintain traction. How does SMG know to do that? (i.e. vary Clutch engagement and agression turn to turn?) I don't want to mess with a little "firmness" button every time I hit new conditions that vary second to second as they often do on the street.
The situation you´re describing is actually one of the high points of SMG. When downshifting under trailing throttle, it´ll rev-match while enganging the cluth very gently. No matter what mode you´re in. The engine braking momentum is actually brought on a smoothly as any driver could. The opposite would actually be a weakness. If you wanted the SMG to declutch hard to unsettle the car at the rear under trailing throttle to induce oversteer. That wouldn´t be possible with SMG. Actually the one thing I find SMG would be completely unfit for is stunt-driving or serious drifting. SMG would not allow some "driving errors".

With all respect and seriously appreciating your opinions on SMG (some of which I actually share), I believe your inhibitions against really show a lack of experience with it.

As for your statement of dry clutch vs. hydraulic converter: You´re absolutely right. It shows you have a thorough knowledge of how both work. And in theory you´re correct. But in practice, you actually CAN drive an SMG just as smooth or even smoother than an auto box. The key here is driver involvement. With the throttle and the paddles as sole inputs you can smooth out any shift to the point of non-noticeablity. Of course at the cost of performance. That´s actually more difficult with a slush since you´d at least have to have it in manu-mode for similar effect and then the slush will less exact at processing your input. Again, more driving experience with the SMG (and willingness to adapt to its possibilities) could change your views towards it. More than that, it might show why some people (actually most owners of an SMG-equiped car) argue so much in favor of it. Unless you´ve reached the experience level with it that opens the window to better driving than manu OR auto, you really don´t know what you´re missing.

I know how pointless it is to argue i favour of it. I´ve never convinced anyone of its merrits so far except to those who allready were convinced. Preaching to the choir.

And after all that is said, and actually hijacking this thread (wasn´t there something about auto in the M6?), into ANOTHER SMG thread let me state this:

We are blessed!
If we really have time to argue, and get excited, over the choice of three very fine transmissions in even finer automobiles, we really have no reason to complain


I´ve driven manu and loved it
I´ve driven auto and loved it
I´ve driven SMG and loved it and adored it and marveled at it

If I have the choice, I´ll allways go for SMG because it makes me the best driver I can be, but if for some reason I can´t have it (as with my outstanding E90 order), I´ll order manual (or aven slush) without hesitation.
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  #65  
Old 05-31-2005, 10:53 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
The situation you´re describing is actually one of the high points of SMG. When downshifting under trailing throttle, it´ll rev-match while enganging the cluth very gently. No matter what mode you´re in. The engine braking momentum is actually brought on a smoothly as any driver could. The opposite would actually be a weakness. If you wanted the SMG to declutch hard to unsettle the car at the rear under trailing throttle to induce oversteer. That wouldn´t be possible with SMG. Actually the one thing I find SMG would be completely unfit for is stunt-driving or serious drifting. SMG would not allow some "driving errors".
Let me rephrase the above scenario, depending on traction, you have a varying degree of "Agressivness" you can hit shifts with in a traction limited condition. That is hitting a corner you can have a patch of gravel or newly paved road, each requires it's own clutch finess in order to maintain proper traction. I'm not sure I see how SMG is "smart enough" to know this corner has more or less traction that the previous corner?
Quote:
With all respect and seriously appreciating your opinions on SMG (some of which I actually share), I believe your inhibitions against really show a lack of experience with it.
MY #1 problem with SMG (admittidly after experiencing it in a very limited capacity) is lack of driver engagement. That is, like Traction control (DCS), it's a driver's aid that helps most, but further divorces you from the experiencing. Some people drive faster with Traction Control, others drive slower, some have more fun with it, others have less fun with it. But like any other driver's aide its a matter of taste as to whether or not it's right for you. Unfortunatly, unlike Traction Control, it's not possible to "Turn SMG off" and row your own and do your own clutch-modulation or feel the synchros engage through the paddles... thus my issue with it.
Quote:
As for your statement of dry clutch vs. hydraulic converter: You´re absolutely right. It shows you have a thorough knowledge of how both work. And in theory you´re correct. But in practice, you actually CAN drive an SMG just as smooth or even smoother than an auto box. The key here is driver involvement. With the throttle and the paddles as sole inputs you can smooth out any shift to the point of non-noticeablity. Of course at the cost of performance. That´s actually more difficult with a slush since you´d at least have to have it in manu-mode for similar effect and then the slush will less exact at processing your input.
That digs into the tunning of the automatic, by adjustment to a valve body, you can make shifts just as fast, and the torque converter dampens any driveline shock. That's why drag racers use automatics (Shift speed, traction and torque multiplication)

Quote:
And after all that is said, and actually hijacking this thread (wasn´t there something about auto in the M6?), into ANOTHER SMG thread let me state this:

We are blessed!
If we really have time to argue, and get excited, over the choice of three very fine transmissions in even finer automobiles, we really have no reason to complain


I´ve driven manu and loved it
I´ve driven auto and loved it
I´ve driven SMG and loved it and adored it and marveled at it

If I have the choice, I´ll allways go for SMG because it makes me the best driver I can be, but if for some reason I can´t have it (as with my outstanding E90 order), I´ll order manual (or aven slush) without hesitation.
Well, back on subject, I Feell the M6 should be offered with whatever transmission the market demands. The M6 being more of a touring car and less of a race car is probably alienating market share and limiting sales by not having a true Automatic nor true manual as an option.

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Last edited by Shinkaze; 05-31-2005 at 10:58 AM.
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  #66  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Well, back on subject, I Feell the M6 should be offered with whatever transmission the market demands. The M6 being more of a touring car and less of a race car is probably alienating market share and limiting sales by not having a true Automatic nor true manual as an option.

-Adam
Aahhh yes, the topic. (Though I have thoroughly enjoyed the SMG re-hash) As I've stated so far, like Ferrari... BMW will have significantly more demand for the M5 and M6 then they will be willing to build.
M's are TRUE limited production cars that are not meant for mass production.
Since the M division can stay TRUE to their core beliefs regarding a sports car and the transmissions that belong there... we will only be seeing SMG and regular manuals in M cars of the future. I'm sure if the day ever comes where we see BMW reach a point where they need to move more M units then they are able to do so as manuals... Or if they simply decide to sell out for the cash... then I could see autos popping up in M cars. I think it would be sad ... :
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  #67  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:09 PM
var1ant var1ant is offline
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M cars must have manuals! or at least a very good smg.
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  #68  
Old 06-02-2005, 08:52 AM
MaxTimeOff MaxTimeOff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Since the M division can stay TRUE to their core beliefs regarding a sports car and the transmissions that belong there... we will only be seeing SMG and regular manuals in M cars of the future.
Speed,

It's basically about profits, let's face it . Why do you think BMW is offering the M6 and M3 in a convertible, to stay TRUE to their beliefs regarding a sports car? No, to sell more units and provide what the marketplace desires. The "M speak" about the purity of the M car is a necessity, and it sounds good. It is however, basically corporate speak and it will change, as the market changes, to fit the profitability requirements of the shareholders of BMW. They will always try to stay relevant to the marketplace. In the very beginning do you really think it was intended for M cars to be offered in convertibles? In the beginning, they probably didn't even consider sunroofs, how about full leather, air conditioning, prologic sound, electric seats, 3900 + lbs, etc!! Is all of this an effort to stay TRUE to their core beliefs of a sports car?

In my opinion, to say that in the future only manual and SMG's will be offered is unsupportable and wrong . At some point in the very near future, manuals will become antiquated and ultimately not desired in the marketplace, and as such, not profitable to produce (SMG's type gearboxes to replace manuals, and autos for the lazy and uncoordinated, will be the norm). It is at that time that manuals will no longer be offered, as the the market evolves, so will BMW. Debate about the timeline, but to say never???

Don't fall into the trap of believing all of the corporate marketing hype, it is there to sell products, pure and simple. If because of profit reasons, things need to change, they will. Everything is subject to change in the future, to say "we will only be seeing SMG and regular manuals in M cars of the future" is preposterous, you don't really believe that do you?

Last edited by MaxTimeOff; 06-02-2005 at 08:59 AM.
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  #69  
Old 06-02-2005, 09:55 AM
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The HACK The HACK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
Okay so I'm hitting the apex of a turn and need to down shift to maintain revs, but I see there is a puddle in the road and realize for this one shift I'm going to need to be a little softer on the engagement to maintain traction. How does SMG know to do that? (i.e. vary Clutch engagement and agression turn to turn?) I don't want to mess with a little "firmness" button every time I hit new conditions that vary second to second as they often do on the street.
OMG get yourself to a high performance driving school as soon as possible before you KILL yourself.

Shifting in the middle of the turn, be it manual or SMG, at or near the limit of adhesion is a quick way to kill yourself or spend the next 6 months in a body cast.

NEVER EVER shift in the middle of the turn as you're hitting the apex. Get all that sh*t done before you even start turning.
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  #70  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:22 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
OMG get yourself to a high performance driving school as soon as possible before you KILL yourself.

Shifting in the middle of the turn, be it manual or SMG, at or near the limit of adhesion is a quick way to kill yourself or spend the next 6 months in a body cast.

NEVER EVER shift in the middle of the turn as you're hitting the apex. Get all that sh*t done before you even start turning.
I ride a Sport Bike so trust me when I say I understand the *theory* of what you're saying. The *reality* is different. At the track you can plan perfect apexes etc, on the street conditions change so quickly so fast and in ways you can't don't anticipate, that your "high performance driving school" ideals are no longer absolutes.
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  #71  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:23 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff
Speed,

It's basically about profits, let's face it . Why do you think BMW is offering the M6 and M3 in a convertible, to stay TRUE to their beliefs regarding a sports car? No, to sell more units and provide what the marketplace desires. The "M speak" about the purity of the M car is a necessity, and it sounds good. It is however, basically corporate speak and it will change, as the market changes, to fit the profitability requirements of the shareholders of BMW. They will always try to stay relevant to the marketplace. In the very beginning do you really think it was intended for M cars to be offered in convertibles? In the beginning, they probably didn't even consider sunroofs, how about full leather, air conditioning, prologic sound, electric seats, 3900 + lbs, etc!! Is all of this an effort to stay TRUE to their core beliefs of a sports car?

In my opinion, to say that in the future only manual and SMG's will be offered is unsupportable and wrong . At some point in the very near future, manuals will become antiquated and ultimately not desired in the marketplace, and as such, not profitable to produce (SMG's type gearboxes to replace manuals, and autos for the lazy and uncoordinated, will be the norm). It is at that time that manuals will no longer be offered, as the the market evolves, so will BMW. Debate about the timeline, but to say never???

Don't fall into the trap of believing all of the corporate marketing hype, it is there to sell products, pure and simple. If because of profit reasons, things need to change, they will. Everything is subject to change in the future, to say "we will only be seeing SMG and regular manuals in M cars of the future" is preposterous, you don't really believe that do you?

BMW doesn't make cars, BMW makes money.
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  #72  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:31 AM
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SpeedFreak! SpeedFreak! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
OMG get yourself to a high performance driving school as soon as possible before you KILL yourself.

Shifting in the middle of the turn, be it manual or SMG, at or near the limit of adhesion is a quick way to kill yourself or spend the next 6 months in a body cast.

NEVER EVER shift in the middle of the turn as you're hitting the apex. Get all that sh*t done before you even start turning.

LOL... I'm glad some one finally said something about that other then me.

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  #73  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:40 AM
Shinkaze Shinkaze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
LOL... I'm glad some one finally said something about that other then me.

See above.
Well this just further substanites my point. Your going through a turn, STREET DRIVING meaning we're not Le Mans Racing here folks. As you initiate a a shift you realize the conditions have changed. Maybe you've gone from a freshly paved road to a racked road, maybe there are leaves on the ground. You had street-safe margin before, but now you're in a low traction condition. You know that, SMG doesn't.

And spare me your "I'm a Michael Schumaker drive by the racer's handbook on the street" purist garbage. 99% of the driving you do in an M3 is commuting type duty and racing school axioms are not applicable. But if you want to talk racing technique I'll happily take you toe to toe on it.
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  #74  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:52 AM
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SpeedFreak! SpeedFreak! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!
Aahhh yes, the topic. (Though I have thoroughly enjoyed the SMG re-hash) As I've stated so far, like Ferrari... BMW will have significantly more demand for the M5 and M6 then they will be willing to build.
M's are TRUE limited production cars that are not meant for mass production.
Since the M division can stay TRUE to their core beliefs regarding a sports car and the transmissions that belong there... we will only be seeing SMG and regular manuals in M cars of the future. I'm sure if the day ever comes where we see BMW reach a point where they need to move more M units then they are able to do so as manuals... Or if they simply decide to sell out for the cash... then I could see autos popping up in M cars. I think it would be sad ... :
Max & Shinkaze,
I really do agree with this point... I understand the bottom line is money. I have said that all along. I never believed that it's Corporate Speak... as you have said... but is actually PEOPLES ideals and beliefs, BUT... when the support for these ideals and beliefs are no longer there in the consumer market... things will change.
Here opens the real debate between 2 very different camps. You believe that the Automatic "SLUSHBOX" transmission will replace the manual... I and many others in the car freak world... believe that the manual will NEVER DIE... and that the SMG will advance to the point where it replaces the current SLUSHBox... if for no other reason is a result of the need for greater efficiency then a "Fluid" driven system can produce. Where as the SMG will certainly reach a point where it can operate in Full Auto mode smoother then anything else. I know we are a long way from there now, but with advances in software and hardware, it won't be long and we'll be there.
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  #75  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:59 AM
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SpeedFreak! SpeedFreak! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkaze
See above.
Well this just further substanites my point. Your going through a turn, STREET DRIVING meaning we're not Le Mans Racing here folks. As you initiate a a shift you realize the conditions have changed. Maybe you've gone from a freshly paved road to a racked road, maybe there are leaves on the ground. You had street-safe margin before, but now you're in a low traction condition. You know that, SMG doesn't.

And spare me your "I'm a Michael Schumaker drive by the racer's handbook on the street" purist garbage. 99% of the driving you do in an M3 is commuting type duty and racing school axioms are not applicable. But if you want to talk racing technique I'll happily take you toe to toe on it.
You, my track going friend, are the only one repeatedly taking this exclusively to the track. We have all been talking, especially myself, about ALL conditions. I have driven, with SMG... which in ALL situations has been VASTLY superior. There is only one exception... that is when I want to drift, or drive really poorly... (j/k ) then the manual or auto will suffice. It's just a difference in opinion regarding the evolution of the drive train as it pertains to the consumer market. It's ok... really.
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