Is the new 1M Coupe really a ///M?

by Bimmerfest.com Member - E92Submarine on December 10, 2010, 2:34 pm
  tags:
1 series m  
Yes I know there is a lot more to a ///M car (or truck) than just the engine. However, looking under the hood of the new 1 ///M coupe revealed something startling! Boy this engine looks a hell of a lot like the N54 unit in my 335i, but it states that it is "Powered by BMW M"

What gives!?!?. Is my 335i a ///M? Where can I buy that sticker?



Read more news about the New BMW 1 Series M Coupe


Leave a Comment

You must be a registered member to comment on stories. Please take a moment to register for your free account now. If you already have an account, log in using fields below.










224 responses to Is the new 1M Coupe really a ///M?

07335i_sport commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:37 pm

well, you get the increased MSRP, thats another M feature.
mad villain commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:38 pm

it does indeed look very similar to the N54! has 335 horsepower...which could easily be gotten from a N54 as we've seen from the IS which isn't far off!
dvon commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:40 pm

M3 Suspension
M3 Dif
M button for throttle response
Increased Cooling
Wider track

I'd say it's an M
guerilla twang commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:40 pm

What makes it an M is it's return to e30/e36 style feel, and trackability.

It's a supposed "return to roots", which is kind of half assed seing as it doesn't have a high revving N/A I-6, but it apparently brings the "joy" back into our Bimmers.

There's tons of info about the car over at www.1addicts.com
E92Submarine commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:45 pm

I don't exactly understand how its a return to roots when it makes max torque at like 1,500rpm. ///M cars aren't even fun until 4k-5k rpm.
E92Submarine commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:50 pm

All that being said, I bet it's a blast to drive
dvon commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:53 pm

Given the M3 has had 4, 6 and 8 cyl engines throughout it's history I think it's fine to see alternative engines offered (including forced induction) in M cars. It's more about the car as a whole package and has e92Subarine said, it does look like a blast to drive.
galahad05 commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:54 pm

It's supposed to be a track monster. I'm betting it'll beat the pants off of most cars that dare to show up on the track (excepting the like of hard-core Lotuses (lotusi?), Porsche Cayman S's, etc.).
cwinter commented:
December 10, 2010, 2:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
I don't exactly understand how its a return to roots when it makes max torque at like 1,500rpm. ///M cars aren't even fun until 4k-5k rpm.
Really? I think I could have fun in an ///M even under 4k RPMs...does the 335i really spoil you that badly? Perhaps another good reason not to get one.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 10, 2010, 3:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
I don't exactly understand how its a return to roots when it makes max torque at like 1,500rpm. ///M cars aren't even fun until 4k-5k rpm.
That's not strictly true.

Anyhow, M cars have always (okay I have had E36, E46 and E90, I don't know about E30s) been fairly tame at low revs and drive like a daily driver. The engine mechanics/control are set up that way. It is only when you want to boot it and open up the engine that it comes 'alive'.

The turbo changes that profile and gives you torque at low range so if you want to drag race Mustangs between the lights during your commute like a 335, you can.

It is also worth noting that the M-division does more to the engine than put a sticker on it. There will be components machined differently, made from different materials (lighter, stronger) as they have greater freedom with their budget. I will bet it has the dogs bollocks of high pressure fuel pumps stuck on it for instance. However, feel free to put an M-sticker on you engine, open up the hood at C2C3 and let us admire your work and comment appropriately.

I'll be test driving one.
Bcube commented:
December 10, 2010, 3:40 pm

I won't consider it an M unless it gets crap fuel economy.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 10, 2010, 3:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
I won't consider it an M unless it gets crap fuel economy.
harsh but fair!
guerilla twang commented:
December 10, 2010, 3:53 pm

Lol, it'll be a gem of a car if they managed to tame the HPFP.
thekurgan commented:
December 10, 2010, 4:42 pm

No.
thekurgan commented:
December 10, 2010, 4:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post

It is also worth noting that the M-division does more to the engine than put a sticker on it. There will be components machined differently, made from different materials (lighter, stronger) as they have greater freedom with their budget. I will bet it has the dogs bollocks of high pressure fuel pumps stuck on it for instance. However, feel free to put an M-sticker on you engine, open up the hood at C2C3 and let us admire your work and comment appropriately.
I expect M cooling enhancements, otherwise I bet it's just a lightly warmed-over N54/N55.
carve commented:
December 10, 2010, 4:52 pm

I like the chassis improvements and diff, and the body kit looks good. Still....don't M-cars usually get some kind of "special" M-engine? This is the same engine they used to sell in the 135i with a software tune and a sticker. I'm sure it's a great car...but that doesn't sound very M.

And, while I love my turbo in my daily driver, especially at my altitude, the predictability and linearity of a normall aspirated motor are better on the track. This should have the I6 from the old M3.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 10, 2010, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I expect M cooling enhancements, otherwise I bet it's just a lightly warmed-over N54/N55.
Shhhhh!
guerilla twang commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I expect M cooling enhancements, otherwise I bet it's just a lightly warmed-over N54/N55.
Doesn't the new 1M have an 8k redline? I thought it did.

If it doesn't, you'll be right, the reason M's usually get all those hush hush secret internals is for their insane redlines. You'd be looking at an entirely upgraded valvetrain, springs, lifters, a cam with a ridiculous amount of lope etc. etc..
E92Submarine commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:34 pm

7k rpm redline just like every other N54

thekurgan commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla twang View Post
Doesn't the new 1M have an 8k redline? I thought it did.

If it doesn't, you'll be right, the reason M's usually get all those hush hush secret internals is for their insane redlines. You'd be looking at an entirely upgraded valvetrain, springs, lifters, a cam with a ridiculous amount of lope etc. etc..
I would hope that M would still produce those cams, to go along with the high pressure double vanos. I can tell you the S54 is butter smooth all the way to 8k with outstanding throttle response down below. You can tell it's not that much M'd over, if it did, after the S52, there would be 6 independent throttle bodies. I would also expect some subframe stiffening as well. The 135 I drove had some creaking when I pulled it back into the dealership, tells me there is chassis work to be done, but then again, I'm picky.
The HACK commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:36 pm

What constitutes an ///M car?

Some would argue that the E36 M3 wasn't really an ///M car, since the U.S. version of the S50B32 and S52B32 were heavily de-tuned and nothing more than a simple M50 block with upgraded valve-train. Some would argue that the E46 M3 has lost the soul of the M3 because it was so damn porky. Some would argue the E9X M3 doesn't use the "traditional" high revving inline 6.

And take a look a the X5M and X6M. The Motorsports division has long held the stance that 1) there will be no AWD ///M and 2) there will be no ///M with automatic transmission after the E36 M3 fiasco. That was why the LeMans X5 was never given the ///M moniker despite having all of the M division's trickery up its sleeves. Are the new X5M and X6M not M cars?

At the end of the day, ///M is what Motorsports says it is. If it means taking the same series and upgrading the suspension and tuning the same engine and slapping on a body-kit means it's an ///M, then that's what it is. Since what makes an ///M an ///M is no longer the same definition they used to use to define what and ///M is.

So what constitutes an ///M car? ///M, stands for Marketing. Since anything equipped with an N54 can't possibly compete on the track in Motorsports.
thekurgan commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
7k rpm redline just like every other N54


At least they kept the white gauges ... no variable redline either.
paximperium commented:
December 10, 2010, 5:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
At the end of the day, ///M is what Motorsports says it is. If it means taking the same series and upgrading the suspension and tuning the same engine and slapping on a body-kit means it's an ///M, then that's what it is. Since what makes an ///M an ///M is no longer the same definition they used to use to define what and ///M is.

So what constitutes an ///M car? ///M, stands for Marketing. Since anything equipped with an N54 can't possibly compete on the track in Motorsports.
Seconded.
This argument is about as silly as arguing if the Lexus LFA is a proper Lexus or if the new Lincoln SUV is really a Lincoln or just a Ford Edge or if some new Audi is is actually an Audi because it uses a VW chasis.

The 1M is an M car because it is made by the M-division. It's a brand. They could slap it on a Mini and call it an M...an M2...hmmm
redadair commented:
December 11, 2010, 2:53 pm

Yes it was developed by the M group. Yes it is a true M car, with totally new lightweight aluminum suspension, M3 brakes, M rear locking diff, M3 19" Performance wheels and an M tuned N54 engine. The car also weighs less than 3300lbs, about the same as my 05 WRX STi. While the current M3 weighs almost 3700lbs.

It is also the first BMW to give back faith to me that BMW may stop the bloat in every series by constant increases in overall size and weight of the cars. My 335i feels like a large car compared to my STi, big and bloated, it's as large as the 5 series from just two revision ago.

By the way, all future M cars will be low revving Turbo cars. What does high revs buy you anyway? Low response in the lower rev range, must be kept revved up to be in the power band. It's Torque that you feel when you are pushed in to the seats on acceleration not HP and the Turbo engines have loads of Torque from low revs to high revs. The e46 M3 drank oil like an alcoholic, but it did rev to 8300 rpm's. So what?

I have a deposit on a new 1M, can't wait for it.
Tom K. commented:
December 11, 2010, 4:17 pm

[QUOTE=E92Submarine;5687430]7k rpm redline just like every other N54[QUOTE]

Although the Dec. Roundel article claims 7,500. Would that make it half an M (an N, perhaps)?

Tom
jummo commented:
December 11, 2010, 10:43 pm

Isn't it up to BMW to decide which cars wear the ///M ?

Sorry, I didn't mean to spoil the party.

How's this " How dare they do this without consulting us?
They're diluting the ///M. the M-Sport package was bad enough, but this, this will not stand."

Do you think we can sue? Or would a boycott be more effective?



jummo
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:48 am

Anything with boost doesn't deserve the ///M Badge. BMW has gone back on their word on many occasions the past few years.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jummo View Post
Isn't it up to BMW to decide which cars wear the ///M ?

Sorry, I didn't mean to spoil the party.

How's this " How dare they do this without consulting us?
They're diluting the ///M. the M-Sport package was bad enough, but this, this will not stand."

Do you think we can sue? Or would a boycott be more effective?



jummo
Honestly, I left BMW because they have lost their direction. Pick up my car Late Jan, Early Feb.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwinter View Post
Really? I think I could have fun in an ///M even under 4k RPMs...does the 335i really spoil you that badly? Perhaps another good reason not to get one.
M Cars love to be revved. You get the most out of them when you push them. I test drove a 2011.5 M3 DCT and I must say, that car was amazing. Lacked punch under 4k but once it got up in that mid to top end....you couldn't stop smiling. Torque builds. It's amazingly...flat.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by redadair View Post
Yes it was developed by the M group. Yes it is a true M car, with totally new lightweight aluminum suspension, M3 brakes, M rear locking diff, M3 19" Performance wheels and an M tuned N54 engine. The car also weighs less than 3300lbs, about the same as my 05 WRX STi. While the current M3 weighs almost 3700lbs.

It is also the first BMW to give back faith to me that BMW may stop the bloat in every series by constant increases in overall size and weight of the cars. My 335i feels like a large car compared to my STi, big and bloated, it's as large as the 5 series from just two revision ago.

By the way, all future M cars will be low revving Turbo cars. What does high revs buy you anyway? Low response in the lower rev range, must be kept revved up to be in the power band. It's Torque that you feel when you are pushed in to the seats on acceleration not HP and the Turbo engines have loads of Torque from low revs to high revs. The e46 M3 drank oil like an alcoholic, but it did rev to 8300 rpm's. So what?

I have a deposit on a new 1M, can't wait for it.

Having all that torque down low means there's nothing up high which means it's going to suck for the track. A high low end means an empty mid to high end. The M3's engine is praised because torque builds from 4000 all the way to as ssccrreeaammiinngg 8300.
CALWATERBOY commented:
December 12, 2010, 10:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Lotuses (lotusi?)
Loti (low-tie)
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 10:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Honestly, I left BMW because they have lost their direction. Pick up my car Late Jan, Early Feb.
I said that about Porsche when they started trying to be BMW.
thumper_330 commented:
December 12, 2010, 11:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Anything with boost doesn't deserve the ///M Badge. BMW has gone back on their word on many occasions the past few years.
That would be by your definition of what makes an M car. An M car is whatever BMW M division says it is and since the world and the markets change, so must the definition of an M car.

I'm unwilling to pan it sight unseen, unlike apparently a lot of people here.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 12, 2010, 12:20 pm

From what I have read, the only real M car built was made in 1896!

[okay, I'll get back to my DIY]
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
That would be by your definition of what makes an M car. An M car is whatever BMW M division says it is and since the world and the markets change, so must the definition of an M car.

I'm unwilling to pan it sight unseen, unlike apparently a lot of people here.
BMW defined M cars way back when. Naturally aspirated, high revving, low torque, high Horsepower monsters. BMW said they'd never put a turbo in an M car. BMW said they'd never use the same engine from anther car in an M car. BMW said they'd never make their cars heavy....So much for that.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
I said that about Porsche when they started trying to be BMW.
How so? Cars like the Panamera and Cayanne? The Cayanne is selling like hot cakes.
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
How so? Cars like the Panamera and Cayanne? The Cayanne is selling like hot cakes.
Panamera and the Cayenne aside, they've started building their sports cars to cater to the lease and replace crowd who care more about luxury features than performance. They ditched the hand-build external dry sump motor that shared its development tree with LeMans and Cup cars and replaced it with a modular wet-sump motor in the M96 that while being cheaper to maintain and replace, also lacked the bulletproof quality of the M64-based motors. Bluetooth, mandatory sunroofs, navigation, heated seats, cupholders, etc. never really had a place in a Porsche and now they're expected nearly standard.

Your Cayman S will be a tremendous car however. One of the few remaining new Porsches I would consider, along with the new Cayman R. I just feel that a bit of the magic of the older cars has been lost in favor of more drivability and comfort which isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least not from a sales and usability stand point, but a lit of the character got lost along the way as well.
thekurgan commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
How so? Cars like the Panamera and Cayanne? The Cayanne is selling like hot cakes.
Cayanne is a fcukin' touareg ... we'll leave it at that ... the only P-cars I would consider are the Cayman S and the 997/998 series. Will probably be my next sports car, as BMW has not impressed me with the move to forced induction as a cheap way to get power over real engineering of an engine. Reliability for BMW has also dropped partly due to the HPFP and the poor choice of interior materials. That aside, I do agree, this 1 M coupe should really just be called an M sport, maybe call it a M135i, like BJ would do. Too bad they couldn't have massaged and stroked (opening the door to ///M rated here) the N52, at least it would remain a N/A motor ...
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:18 pm

I don't understand the objection to turbochargers. They're the future of powerful motors. You can get big, usable power without big displacement and still return respectable fuel mileage to boot.

I do find it funny that you're going to a manufacturer that was a huge pioneer in turbocharging in motorsport and production car applications.
thekurgan commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
I don't understand the objection to turbochargers. They're the future of powerful motors. You can get big, usable power without big displacement and still return respectable fuel mileage to boot.

I do find it funny that you're going to a manufacturer that was a huge pioneer in turbocharging in motorsport and production car applications.
It's simply a matter of laziness, actually. I'd rather see the M division massage 100hp/liter not using a turbo/supercharger. That is what they used to do, that is what they were known for, as well as hand assembling all S series engines. I never said I would get any turbo model P car, so you made an assumption there.
paximperium commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
It's simply a matter of laziness, actually. I'd rather see the M division massage 100hp/liter not using a turbo/supercharger. That is what they used to do, that is what they were known for, as well as hand assembling all S series engines. I never said I would get any turbo model P car, so you made an assumption there.
EU and CARB CO2 and Emission rules. End of story.
Bcube commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Honestly, I left BMW because they have lost their direction. Pick up my car Late Jan, Early Feb.
I take it then, you fully support Porsche's direction of sharing platforms across VW and Audi, adding even more VW econobox content into the Brand, including the new entry level Porsche - which really will be a rebadged VW BlueSport. Good for you.

I find it amusing that the very first Porsche that I ever test drove is their current best selling and first ever sedan - the Panamera. Its not for me, I'll stick with wholly independent owned car brands - BMW and...gee who else?
thekurgan commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
eu and carb co2 and emission rules. End of story.
lol
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
It's simply a matter of laziness, actually. I'd rather see the M division massage 100hp/liter not using a turbo/supercharger. That is what they used to do, that is what they were known for, as well as hand assembling all S series engines. I never said I would get any turbo model P car, so you made an assumption there.
I guess the question is... Why Who cares how power as made as long as it is done in a manner that it is usable and it is delivered reliably?
Bcube commented:
December 12, 2010, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
It's simply a matter of laziness, actually. I'd rather see the M division massage 100hp/liter not using a turbo/supercharger. That is what they used to do, that is what they were known for, as well as hand assembling all S series engines. I never said I would get any turbo model P car, so you made an assumption there.
Kurgan, BMW sells such a car now. It's called a M3 GTS. I look forward to see pics of your new purchase....

thumper_330 commented:
December 12, 2010, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
BMW defined M cars way back when. Naturally aspirated, high revving, low torque, high Horsepower monsters. BMW said they'd never put a turbo in an M car. BMW said they'd never use the same engine from anther car in an M car. BMW said they'd never make their cars heavy....So much for that.
So I take it you don't subscribe to the philosophy of "Adapt or Perish"? Remind me never to work for you.

As a small business owner myself I know that the reason my small business still exists and thrives after some 15 years in business, is my ability to adapt to changing market conditions and demands. Like it or not, BMW is a business; they exist to make money and not to appease people whose idea of "M" stopped somewhere around a decade ago.

M is BMW's brand. They define what it is going to be, and if the M division feel that the sharing of an engine is just fine because it meets their needs, power to them. I agree with MrBonus that it doesn't matter how the power is made so long as the response is predictable and linear, and above all controllable. That's the essence of M, not some mission statement from 1996 which just isn't valid for today's business world.

The world has changed; would you rather see M die because the new rules and regulations mean they can no longer compete? Perhaps you would prefer if they "went out on top" from your perspective... but I would bet that BMW and M Division would disagree wholeheartedly with you and that they would rather at least TRY to stay on top.

I like you -=Hot|Ice=-, you seem like a smart guy but on this we will have to disagree. But you do seem to be under the false assumption that the grass is greener on the other side (Porsche). It's not. They do make great cars, but I would contend that they continue the path to homogenization that they started when they moved away from their core market with the release of the Boxster (the 1-series of its day).

I would suggest that if you want to continue driving the kinds of cars that M division promised to make, you start your own car company to do it. Or just build a one-off. Noone builds cars like that any more; not M Division, not Porsche... hell, no-one. The world has changed, the companies have changed to survive and even thrive.
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 2:43 pm

Well said, Thumper. I think we all have a bit of nostalgia for what performance cars once were (uncompromised, built for enthusiasts/motorsports, to a singular focus and ideal) but the fact is that the world has changed. We have stringent emissions and safety requirements and, for better or worse, the cars have to change with them.

We also have manufacturers that have streamlined their ability to cater to a wider audience and unfortunately, the average BMW or Porsche owner doesn't want a 964 RS or E30 M3. It's a shame for us handful of enthusiasts but it's the direction of new cars unless you want to buy a new Elise or are willing to pony up for any number of exotics starting in the GT3 RS price point.

So we have two choices: Accept what new cars have become or buy one of your dream cars that once were. I think this is why I like my current garage so much. I can appreciate the ease of power of the 335d. Yes, it's a bit distilled, the steering weight is a bit artificial, and the engine tone sounds more engineered than natural, but it's largely enjoyable to drive and it makes my morning commute to the office relaxing if I so choose without having to resort to buying an appliance like a Lexus or having to compromise and deal with an older car with less sound deadening, no Bluetooth/heated seats/cupholders, etc. If I really want to drive, the 993 is always there and there will never be another new car like that, much like there won't be another S14 M3.

For those looking Porsche's way, I previously owned a 997. They're fantastic cars, light years ahead of the older cars in chassis development and the engines are smoother and make more power everywhere in the powerband. That said, the car felt like a sharper 3-series. Too much luxury, too many compromises, too much spend on catering to executives rather than weekend track junkies. At least with me 335, the car doesn't lie to its core buyers as to what it is. At least, that's my opinion.
sf_loft commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:22 pm

///M is for money. I have it and I'm going to flaunt it. That's the mental model many owners will have. Not saying all owners, but other than the 1M and M3, the other M cars are pure for show and tell. You think the X5M, M5, M6, and X6M owners are taking their cars on track day or flashing it at the valet spot. The M3 is the ideal sports car, although it seems to get bigger each year, anything larger was simply designed to satisfy the dominant male.
thekurgan commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
I guess the question is... Why Who cares how power as made as long as it is done in a manner that it is usable and it is delivered reliably?
It really isn't there yet, now is it in F/I form ...
thekurgan commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
Kurgan, BMW sells such a car now. It's called a M3 GTS. I look forward to see pics of your new purchase....

The only pumpkin-colored car I would consider
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
Yes I know there is a lot more to a ///M car (or truck) than just the engine. However, looking under the hood of the new 1 ///M coupe revealed something startling! Boy this engine looks a hell of a lot like the N54 unit in my 335i, but it states that it is "Powered by BMW M"

What gives!?!?. Is my 335i a ///M? Where can I buy that sticker?
I'm saying it's not an ///M. An ///M car needs a hand built race motor. This is an ///M sport package for a regular car.
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Honestly, I left BMW because they have lost their direction. Pick up my car Late Jan, Early Feb.
Welcome to the Audi-Porsche-VW family!
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
///M is for money. I have it and I'm going to flaunt it. That's the mental model many owners will have. Not saying all owners, but other than the 1M and M3, the other M cars are pure for show and tell. You think the X5M, M5, M6, and X6M owners are taking their cars on track day or flashing it at the valet spot. The M3 is the ideal sports car, although it seems to get bigger each year, anything larger was simply designed to satisfy the dominant male.
+1000. I see more X6M and X5M in San Francisco than any other M car - and these have only been out for a year tops. That's more than all current body style M3+M5+M6 combined.

Not going to lie, I love the status my S4 gives me for $47,000. It's an extremely sharp, head turning car. And it can do this:

-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
I take it then, you fully support Porsche's direction of sharing platforms across VW and Audi, adding even more VW econobox content into the Brand, including the new entry level Porsche - which really will be a rebadged VW BlueSport. Good for you.

I find it amusing that the very first Porsche that I ever test drove is their current best selling and first ever sedan - the Panamera. Its not for me, I'll stick with wholly independent owned car brands - BMW and...gee who else?
Porsche would still be making it's own cars, if they weren't in so much debt. I don't support their direction, but at least they have stuck to their philosophy. Make light(er) cars that handle well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
So I take it you don't subscribe to the philosophy of "Adapt or Perish"? Remind me never to work for you.

As a small business owner myself I know that the reason my small business still exists and thrives after some 15 years in business, is my ability to adapt to changing market conditions and demands. Like it or not, BMW is a business; they exist to make money and not to appease people whose idea of "M" stopped somewhere around a decade ago.

M is BMW's brand. They define what it is going to be, and if the M division feel that the sharing of an engine is just fine because it meets their needs, power to them. I agree with MrBonus that it doesn't matter how the power is made so long as the response is predictable and linear, and above all controllable. That's the essence of M, not some mission statement from 1996 which just isn't valid for today's business world.

The world has changed; would you rather see M die because the new rules and regulations mean they can no longer compete? Perhaps you would prefer if they "went out on top" from your perspective... but I would bet that BMW and M Division would disagree wholeheartedly with you and that they would rather at least TRY to stay on top.

I like you -=Hot|Ice=-, you seem like a smart guy but on this we will have to disagree. But you do seem to be under the false assumption that the grass is greener on the other side (Porsche). It's not. They do make great cars, but I would contend that they continue the path to homogenization that they started when they moved away from their core market with the release of the Boxster (the 1-series of its day).

I would suggest that if you want to continue driving the kinds of cars that M division promised to make, you start your own car company to do it. Or just build a one-off. Noone builds cars like that any more; not M Division, not Porsche... hell, no-one. The world has changed, the companies have changed to survive and even thrive.

The special thing about the ///M division was that they weren't like everyone else. They stood alone. The M3 I was going to re-order felt fat after I test drove the Cayman S. It honestly felt like they put a V8 under the hood to make up for the weight. The e92 while a great machine, is when everything started to go downhill, Then the Joy campaign hit. That was the final nail in the coffin in my opinion. The M division was all about lightweight, raw, fun cars. If they make the car lighter, (a la Porsche) then fuel consumption will also drastically improve. When an engine has to haul around a 3600 pounds, It's obvious gas consumption will improve. The next generation Cayman will be a turbo 4 that will have better gas mileage and much more power, so I am glad I getting the last generation of this proper P-Car. I just wish it wasn't so. Unfortunately, ///M no longer stands for Motorsport. They've finally fallen to Marketing, just like ///AMG.
galahad05 commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:42 pm

I think my next car may well be a Tata-Jaguar-Land Rover.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
Welcome to the Audi-Porsche-VW family!
Thanks! I can't wait!
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
I'm saying it's not an ///M. An ///M car needs a hand built race motor. This is an ///M sport package for a regular car.
Other than the S14, which M car came with a homologated race motor?
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
+1000. I see more X6M and X5M in San Francisco than any other M car - and these have only been out for a year tops. That's more than all current body style M3+M5+M6 combined.

Not going to lie, I love the status my S4 gives me for $47,000. It's an extremely sharp, head turning car. And it can do this:
Just about any new production car can run an HPDE.
guerilla twang commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
This is an ///M sport package for a regular car.


That's a pretty ignorant statement.

The 1M goes far beyond what a simple 128/135i with ZMP has.

You're looking at almost a complete interior overall, with specially crafted fascias, along with an M Diff, M suspension...I mean come on.
CT commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:54 pm

Comparison on the Nurburgring

BMWs Compared:

* E46 M3 CSL - 7:50
* E90/E92 M3 - 8:05
* E63 M6 - 8:09
* 1 series M coupe - 8:12
* Z4 M-Coupe - 8:12
* E60 M5 - 8:13
* Alpina B3 Biturbo - 8:14
* Z4 M-Roadster - 8:15
* Alpina Roadster S (Z4) - 8:15
* E46 M3 - 8:22
* 335i E92 Coupe - 8:26


Other Models Compared:

* 911 Carrera S PDK (997.5) - 7:50
* Audi R8 4.2 - 8:04
* Cayman S - 8:04 (by Walter Röhrl)
* Audi RS4 - 8:09
* Audi TT-RS - 8:09
* BMW 1 series M coupe - 8:12
* Aston Martin V8 Vantage - 8:13
* Mercedes C63 AMG PP - 8:13
* Corvette C6 - 8:15
* Cayman S - 8:16 (Sport Auto)
* Porsche Boxter S (987.5) - 8:18
* Lexus IS-F - 8:18
* 2010 VW Golf R - 8:23
* Audi S5 (2007) - 8:26
* Audi TT-S (2008) - 8:29
galahad05 commented:
December 12, 2010, 3:57 pm

Man, I said it before, and I'll say it again. This new 1M is a killer track machine!

A more-potent E30 M3.
guerilla twang commented:
December 12, 2010, 4:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Man, I said it before, and I'll say it again. This new 1M is a killer track machine!

A more-potent E30 M3.
Exactly, that's what they built it for.

I want one so badly.

And with the way I manage myself i'll end up trading in the 330i for it...
guerilla twang commented:
December 12, 2010, 4:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT View Post
Comparison on the Nurburgring

BMWs Compared:

* E46 M3 CSL - 7:50
* E90/E92 M3 - 8:05
* E63 M6 - 8:09
* 1 series M coupe - 8:12
* Z4 M-Coupe - 8:12
* E60 M5 - 8:13
* Alpina B3 Biturbo - 8:14
* Z4 M-Roadster - 8:15
* Alpina Roadster S (Z4) - 8:15
* E46 M3 - 8:22
* 335i E92 Coupe - 8:26


Other Models Compared:

* 911 Carrera S PDK (997.5) - 7:50
* Audi R8 4.2 - 8:04
* Cayman S - 8:04 (by Walter Röhrl)
* Audi RS4 - 8:09
* Audi TT-RS - 8:09
* BMW 1 series M coupe - 8:12
* Aston Martin V8 Vantage - 8:13
* Mercedes C63 AMG PP - 8:13
* Corvette C6 - 8:15
* Cayman S - 8:16 (Sport Auto)
* Porsche Boxter S (987.5) - 8:18
* Lexus IS-F - 8:18
* 2010 VW Golf R - 8:23
* Audi S5 (2007) - 8:26
* Audi TT-S (2008) - 8:29
It's putting down simply stunning times.
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 4:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Just about any new production car can run an HPDE.
SUVs and convertibles are generally not allowed on track. So in a given year, more cars are made that are banned from the track rather than allowed.
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla twang View Post
That's a pretty ignorant statement.

The 1M goes far beyond what a simple 128/135i with ZMP has.

You're looking at almost a complete interior overall, with specially crafted fascias, along with an M Diff, M suspension...I mean come on.
It's a 135is. The people with the 335is are getting ripped off with an open differential. The S4 has a proper differential at the same price point.

The N54 motor is not anywhere near in the same league as the S54 (e46 m3 motor) or the new V8 in the e90/e92 M3. You can run those engines above 7000 RPM for a 24 hour race and the car would not need to be rebuilt. The supercharged S4 and the turbocharged N54/N55 engines would blow up mid-race. They're simply not built for that kind of abuse. You need to take it easy on the RPMs.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
It's a 135is. The people with the 335is are getting ripped off with an open differential. The S4 has a proper differential at the same price point.

The N54 motor is not anywhere near in the same league as the S54 (e46 m3 motor) or the new V8 in the e90/e92 M3. You can run those engines above 7000 RPM for a 24 hour race and the car would not need to be rebuilt. The supercharged S4 and the turbocharged N54/N55 engines would blow up mid-race. They're simply not built for that kind of abuse. You need to take it easy on the RPMs.
The more moving parts you have, the more likely it is something is going to go wrong.
captainaudio commented:
December 12, 2010, 5:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
I'm saying it's not an ///M. An ///M car needs a hand built race motor. This is an ///M sport package for a regular car.
The 1M coupe is a rebadged Toyota.


CA
galahad05 commented:
December 12, 2010, 6:03 pm

I thought it was a Tata?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 6:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 1M coupe is a rebadged Toyota.


CA
BMW is no longer a privately held company. I knew it.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
+1000. I see more X6M and X5M in San Francisco than any other M car - and these have only been out for a year tops. That's more than all current body style M3+M5+M6 combined.

Not going to lie, I love the status my S4 gives me for $47,000. It's an extremely sharp, head turning car. And it can do this:

By this do you mean, go around a corner?
paximperium commented:
December 12, 2010, 7:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The special thing about the ///M division was that they weren't like everyone else. They stood alone. The M3 I was going to re-order felt fat after I test drove the Cayman S. It honestly felt like they put a V8 under the hood to make up for the weight. The e92 while a great machine, is when everything started to go downhill, Then the Joy campaign hit. That was the final nail in the coffin in my opinion. The M division was all about lightweight, raw, fun cars. If they make the car lighter, (a la Porsche) then fuel consumption will also drastically improve. When an engine has to haul around a 3600 pounds, It's obvious gas consumption will improve. The next generation Cayman will be a turbo 4 that will have better gas mileage and much more power, so I am glad I getting the last generation of this proper P-Car. I just wish it wasn't so. Unfortunately, ///M no longer stands for Motorsport. They've finally fallen to Marketing, just like ///AMG.
I'm just curious, is there a single car company that made semi-affordable(not Lamborghini/Ferrari expensive) sports cars that has kept to the light and sporty character that you cherish?
E92Submarine commented:
December 12, 2010, 7:34 pm

The point of this thread was really to ask the question: Can they just update the software on the N54 and call it a M? The suspension, brakes and diff are all M components no doubt, but the engine is still just a N54 some updated software.

Bottom line, it's a ///M car designed by BMW on a budget.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
The point of this thread was really to ask the question: Can they just update the software on the N54 and call it a M? The suspension, brakes and diff are all M components no doubt, but the engine is still just a N54 some updated software.

Bottom line, it's a ///M car designed by BMW on a budget.
How is it a M car when the Engine isn't even from the M division? It's a 135iS, basically. It's a regular 135i on steroids, a 135i with a beefier M sports package.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
I'm just curious, is there a single car company that made semi-affordable(not Lamborghini/Ferrari expensive) sports cars that has kept to the light and sporty character that you cherish?
I'm a BMW lover deep down. Always will be. The Cayman just wowed me more then the M3 did.
westwest888 commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
By this do you mean, go around a corner?
At 0.92G. The X6M only tested for 0.91G. Then it rolls over into the dirt.
BMWFTW91 commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
At 0.92G. The X6M only tested for 0.91G. Then it rolls over into the dirt.
DO you ever got anything nice to say? I mean nothing wrong with you hanging over here with your Audi, but at least try to be a little respectful.
CT commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWFTW91 View Post
DO you ever got anything nice to say? I mean nothing wrong with you hanging over here with your Audi, but at least try to be a little respectful.
I'd say his comments are half again more respectful than some other comments made by those who will remain nameless.

But, really, where is there a set-in-stone mantra for what is and is not an M-car? What defines an M-car has changed over time and is likely to further evolve as time goes on. I, for one, welcome what BMW has said the 1-M represents. If they keep on the same line of thought, we'll see some welcome new diversity and, if we're truly lucky, some smaller and lighter vehicles.
MrBonus commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
SUVs and convertibles are generally not allowed on track. So in a given year, more cars are made that are banned from the track rather than allowed.
An epidemic, I'm sure. Fortunately, most rules pertaining to convertibles vary from track to track and group to group out east.
BMWFTW91 commented:
December 12, 2010, 8:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT View Post
I'd say his comments are half again more respectful than some other comments made by those who will remain nameless.

But, really, where is there a set-in-stone mantra for what is and is not an M-car? What defines an M-car has changed over time and is likely to further evolve as time goes on. I, for one, welcome what BMW has said the 1-M represents. If they keep on the same line of thought, we'll see some welcome new diversity and, if we're truly lucky, some smaller and lighter vehicles.
DUDE, it is ridiculous!

But anyways, I think that the 1M reminds me a whole lot of the E46 M3. It is Bmw trying to go back to it's old roots, in which their cars used to be small and just were the perfect size.

I think it is a BIG WIN, only disappointment os the 0-60 time of 4.7 seconds, but I am sure is is much quicker then that!
Chop362 commented:
December 12, 2010, 9:49 pm

Does it? Nah...
redadair commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Having all that torque down low means there's nothing up high which means it's going to suck for the track. A high low end means an empty mid to high end. The M3's engine is praised because torque builds from 4000 all the way to as ssccrreeaammiinngg 8300.
So does this logic apply to the Porsche 911 Turbo and GT2 as well? How about the Corvette ZR1? same bad performance on the track? or the Bugatti Veyron, the Nissan GTR etc, etc.

One day you turbo haters will see the light. If you want to talk about high RPM's Turbo's usually run between 30,000 - 50,000 RPM's Now that is sccrreeemmiinngg fast.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 13, 2010, 1:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by redadair View Post
So does this logic apply to the Porsche 911 Turbo and GT2 as well? How about the Corvette ZR1? same bad performance on the track? or the Bugatti Veyron, the Nissan GTR etc, etc.

One day you turbo haters will see the light. If you want to talk about high RPM's Turbo's usually run between 30,000 - 50,000 RPM's Now that is sccrreeemmiinngg fast.
Yes, it actually does. The torque curve starts dipping as the car begins gaining speed.

And Turbo's run that high...on aircrafts. Not on STREET LEGAL cars.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 13, 2010, 6:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
At 0.92G. The X6M only tested for 0.91G. Then it rolls over into the dirt.
Hey Westy! Back off a little, will ya? You are starting to upset the kiddies in the playpen and we are running out BMW approved performance diapers!
thumper_330 commented:
December 13, 2010, 8:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
The point of this thread was really to ask the question: Can they just update the software on the N54 and call it a M? The suspension, brakes and diff are all M components no doubt, but the engine is still just a N54 some updated software.

Bottom line, it's a ///M car designed by BMW on a budget.
Only if you first assume that the definition of an M car is the engine. That being the case I would suggest dropping the old M5's V10 under the hood of an Hyundai and you'd have an M car... right?

Wrong... an M car is more than the sum of its parts... in fact I would counter that the actual components used are totally irrelevant so long as they provide the performance you need at the track.

As for the torque curves on the 1 Series M engine... we don't know yet what M have done to the engine. Noone here has actually driven or dynoed the car. At the moment we are speculating that the N54 in this car is identical to the one in the 335is. This may be a false assumption as you can radically change a forced induction car with just software. We know peak torque and horsepower but we don't yet known where they fall on the tach.
E92Submarine commented:
December 13, 2010, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Only if you first assume that the definition of an M car is the engine. That being the case I would suggest dropping the old M5's V10 under the hood of an Hyundai and you'd have an M car... right?

Wrong... an M car is more than the sum of its parts... in fact I would counter that the actual components used are totally irrelevant so long as they provide the performance you need at the track.

As for the torque curves on the 1 Series M engine... we don't know yet what M have done to the engine. Noone here has actually driven or dynoed the car. At the moment we are speculating that the N54 in this car is identical to the one in the 335is. This may be a false assumption as you can radically change a forced induction car with just software. We know peak torque and horsepower but we don't yet known where they fall on the tach.
Did you read what I wrote? I agree that it's the sum of the parts that make it an M, but this engine was not designed by M.

Why doesn't the 335is get the M Powered sticker on it's engine? It's the same N54 with a tune. Yes it's an M car. Yes it did great on the ring. But no, it's a N54 and will be found in the right lane on the highway in limp mode.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 9:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
Did you read what I wrote? I agree that it's the sum of the parts that make it an M, but this engine was not designed by M.

Why doesn't the 335is get the M Powered sticker on it's engine? It's the same N54 with a tune. Yes it's an M car. Yes it did great on the ring. But no, it's a N54 and will be found in the right lane on the highway in limp mode.
I would hope the ///M version of the N54 would have an ///M engineered, designed and built HPFP ...
Ounce commented:
December 13, 2010, 9:39 am

I'm pretty surprised there's such a big debate about this. While it's true that the engine isn't purpose built for this M version, there are many other things that have been done to take it well beyond "135is" status. I would think the all aluminum suspension from the M3 and LSD are big enough items to warrant the status. In my opinion at least, M cars are made to tear up the track, not a drag strip. Who cares how high strung/tuned the engine is if it's providing the thrust you're looking for.
E92Submarine commented:
December 13, 2010, 9:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
Yes I know there is a lot more to a ///M car (or truck) than just the engine. However, looking under the hood of the new 1 ///M coupe revealed something startling! Boy this engine looks a hell of a lot like the N54 unit in my 335i, but it states that it is "Powered by BMW M"

What gives!?!?. Is my 335i a ///M? Where can I buy that sticker?
.
redadair commented:
December 13, 2010, 10:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Yes, it actually does. The torque curve starts dipping as the car begins gaining speed.

And Turbo's run that high...on aircrafts. Not on STREET LEGAL cars.

The torque curve dips on all engines at they reach upper rpm's regardless of forced or natural induction. And yes the turbo's on car engines do run that high as well.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 11:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ounce View Post
I'm pretty surprised there's such a big debate about this. While it's true that the engine isn't purpose built for this M version, there are many other things that have been done to take it well beyond "135is" status. I would think the all aluminum suspension from the M3 and LSD are big enough items to warrant the status. In my opinion at least, M cars are made to tear up the track, not a drag strip. Who cares how high strung/tuned the engine is if it's providing the thrust you're looking for.
I think the debate, for me at least, is that the M division didn't do anything really special to the engine of this model, like they have done in the past. Yes, the suspension and diff, etc. are M products, tried, tested and reliable, but I was really hoping they would step up regarding the engine choice as in other models, that were "M'd", like the Z4 M series, the M version of the engine was dramatically different than the standard engine choices, same in the 3, 5 and 6 series of the past. For many of us, if this is M/BMWs new direction, so be it, but we are allowed our opinions.
E92Submarine commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:08 pm

So when the next generation M3 goes back to a straight 6 with a turbo or two, will M3 buyers be ticked if their engine is simply a more tuned version in the higher model non-M 3 series? Regardless of other M components, I would be not too happy.
MrBonus commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I think the debate, for me at least, is that the M division didn't do anything really special to the engine of this model, like they have done in the past. Yes, the suspension and diff, etc. are M products, tried, tested and reliable, but I was really hoping they would step up regarding the engine choice as in other models, that were "M'd", like the Z4 M series, the M version of the engine was dramatically different than the standard engine choices, same in the 3, 5 and 6 series of the past. For many of us, if this is M/BMWs new direction, so be it, but we are allowed our opinions.
With more stringent emissions standards, I think you'll see a lot more engine sharing going forward.

We've certainly seen it with Porsche as they've basically used the same flat-6 across the 911 and Cayman/Boxster platforms.
MarcusSanDiego commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Loti (low-tie)
One Lotus = Lotus.
Two Lotus = Loti?

So, one bus = bus.
Two bus = bi?



For the record, it should be Lotuses.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
With more stringent emissions standards, I think you'll see a lot more engine sharing going forward.

We've certainly seen it with Porsche as they've basically used the same flat-6 across the 911 and Cayman/Boxster platforms.
I don't disagree, just saying I was disappointed; means I'll be keeping my M for a long time.
MrBonus commented:
December 13, 2010, 12:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I don't disagree, just saying I was disappointed; means I'll be keeping my M for a long time.
I blame legislation more than manufacturers. The drivers car is dying and its nanny regulations, both domestic and in the rest of the world, that are killing it.
paximperium commented:
December 13, 2010, 1:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
I blame legislation more than manufacturers. The drivers car is dying and its nanny regulations, both domestic and in the rest of the world, that are killing it.
What "nanny" regulations and legislation are you referring to?
Safety regulations? Emissions or efficiency regulations?
The HACK commented:
December 13, 2010, 1:44 pm

I skimmed through most of the responses. For some reason I feel like responding again.

First, Let's touch upon some of the statements made about this 1M Coupe being made for the track. It's not. Let's not pretend that this 1M Coupe is going to be any more capable than any other N54 equipped car for the track. The inherent flaws in the N54 means that this car will never be able to withstand the rigors of track use for extended period of time and that's a FACT.

In my advanced age my memory is fading, but it's slowly coming back to me. Luckily I work in the aftermarket industry and gets to pick the brains of some of the smartest guys in the world when it comes to their specialties. I was chatting with one of our vendors who just happens to build high-end race motors for one of the pre-eminent race series in the United States. The conversation turned to BMW motors, since naturally, I'm a BMW fanatic, and off-handedly he asked me if any tuner found a way around the problem with the new turbocharged BMW engines. I asked him to elaborate, and he said that a turbocharged aluminum inline-6 block like that, it's going to be very difficult to provide enough cooling to the last two cylinders to make it work well for true motorsport applications. That's why you RARELY ever see turbocharged inline 6es. It can be done, as evident by some of the great turbo'ed 6es from Japan (GT-R, Supra), but he said that the aluminum block makes it just about impossible to extract reliable power out of turbocharging due to heat in the last two cylinders. And that reminded me of a white paper I read on Steve Dinan's tune on the N54, and it explicitly stated that they were having cooling issues with the last two cylinder while testing and had to increase cooling capacity as well as water pump flow rate just to reliably extract some moderate power (380 HP?) out of the engine as it stands. And judging from the amount of problems that still exist with N54 on track WITH the Dinan tune, I'd reserve judgement as to whether or not the 1M Coupe can truly withstand the rigors of track use until they start showing up at the track in capable hands. Given the engineering hurdle to cross, I doubt it.

Now, before you start quoting 'Ring times to disprove that this car can indeed work well on track, let me just say that even the 135i and 335i had no problem posting decent 'Ring times without going limp. The 'Ring has very long high speed sections combined with a lot of high speed turns to provide adequate high speed cooling. I doubt the 135i and 335i can post reliable times on the F1 'Ring track for a 20 minute session in the hands of a test driver.

The next point I'm going to make is about turbo charged vs. naturally aspirated. Those of you that have driven a NA ///M motor with individual throttle bodies vs any FI car will likely never make that argument that turbo-charging is the way of the future. Like all things in marketing, turbo-charging is but a way to mask a motor's inadequacies. While turbo-charging looks great on paper because it provides great power and torque and returns fuel economy of a "small" engine, there's just no way to replicate the instantaneous throttle response of a NA engine plus the ability to rev to sky-high limits, thus allowing you to take advantage of gearing to use all that available high end power. I have taken my '09 WRX Wagon and the MZ4 Coupe to the track regularly last year, and while under boost the WRX Wagon can keep up, if money weren't a factor I'd choose the NA ///M motor any day. Also the inherent flaw in FI engines, the heat it generates via exhaust gas, a high speed, spinning turbine, and highly compressed air means more heat generated in the system, and therefore require far more cooling capacity to operate at the higher range of performance spectrum. I mean, the S54 in my MZ4 Coupe comes with some very beefy water and oil cooling, and even with that upgraded cooling capacity, I'd venture to guess the 1M Coupe is going to require a lot more than what was put on the prior generation ///M motors to see the light of day on track.

And I can't leave a thread without the opportunity to offend just about everyone who's posted in it. I see a lot of argument by people about the race-bred heritage of BMW ///M. Yet beside a few posters that I know, how many of you actually will EVER sniff the hot side of the pit in your lifetime? I find it ironic that the most fervent defender of what the ///M stands for, are by guys that have NO IDEA what "M" stands for. Now, if you're capable of turning a few hot laps around the track and extracting more than 50% of what an 1M Coupe is capable of, and you want to complain that the N54 is not a race bred, hand built, ///M designed engine like every single ///M engine that came before it (well, except the X5M and X6M has pretty much came before THAT to break that tradition)? Maybe there's some merit to BMW losing your business. God knows I'm not going to touch any new BMW with a 100' pole unless it's a diesel. But for someone to claim that BMW's lost their business because of the recent development and direction that they're headed in? I've got one thing to say for that. Stop spouting what you read on the internet. Start thinking for yourself.

Lastly, as I've contended for quite a long time now. If you want to buy a BMW, a BMW that was built in the golden years of BMW lore, a BMW that was build like how a BMW should be, but you want it new? Head down to the local Subaru dealership. The WRX STi Special Edition has all the ingredients that made BMW what BMW was in the 80s and 90s, except it's got all the modern fixin's. They took out all the frivolous things that made the STi so damn heavy, threw on light-weight rims and lost like 100 lbs AND mated it with stiffer springs and shocks. And made it CHEAPER than the STi. Go figure.
guerilla twang commented:
December 13, 2010, 1:49 pm

Thx Hack, your posts are always genuinely informative and useful.
MrBonus commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
What "nanny" regulations and legislation are you referring to?
Safety regulations? Emissions or efficiency regulations?
Crash and pedestrian safety regulations, mandating heavy steel beams and air bags. Mandating traction control systems that are mated with laggy, intrusive throttle drive-by-wire systems. Cross-platform engine and transmission usage in order to save costs to meet increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post

And I can't leave a thread without the opportunity to offend just about everyone who's posted in it.
I knew you wouldn't let us down here.
The HACK commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I knew you wouldn't let us down here.
Don't be offended. Take that MZ4 Coupe of yours to a few DEs then you can definitely say how BMW has left their true roots and how now you will only swear by their diesels.

That's assuming you don't already have about two dozen weekends in the MZ4 Coupe already.
Technic commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
So when the next generation M3 goes back to a straight 6 with a turbo or two, will M3 buyers be ticked if their engine is simply a more tuned version in the higher model non-M 3 series? Regardless of other M components, I would be not too happy.
I -for one- will not be ticked when the next M3 shows up with a 450hp turbo engine... the issue to me is not that there will be a turbo M3, it is that better be an M engine and not the same exact engine found in a non-M model.

This 1M engine is no M engine.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Don't be offended. Take that MZ4 Coupe of yours to a few DEs then you can definitely say how BMW has left their true roots and how now you will only swear by their diesels.

That's assuming you don't already have about two dozen weekends in the MZ4 Coupe already.
Nah, not that many, I'm gentle on the beast We are in the market for a diesel, after renting a 118d, found the thing sweet. Thanks for the insight as always, Hack
MrBonus commented:
December 13, 2010, 2:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Nah, not that many, I'm gentle on the beast We are in the market for a diesel, after renting a 118d, found the thing sweet. Thanks for the insight as always, Hack
Your Z4M was built for abuse. Don't deny it from its purpose.
galahad05 commented:
December 13, 2010, 3:34 pm

You know, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find the new 1M very intriguing. I never liked the looks of the regular 1 series, but this looks much better. Plus it's much more powerful and (apparently) balanced. 135is, 1M, whatever you want to call it, it looks good to me.

Oh, and it also doesn't cost sixty-plus large to buy.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 13, 2010, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by redadair View Post
The torque curve dips on all engines at they reach upper rpm's regardless of forced or natural induction. And yes the turbo's on car engines do run that high as well.

Have you seen the M3's torque curve? It doesn't fall till redline Have you seen a 335i's torque curve? Have you seen a 911's torque curve on a dyno?

Show me a car that has a 30k redline with a turbo motor that is STREET LEGAL and is in mass production.
paximperium commented:
December 13, 2010, 3:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Crash and pedestrian safety regulations, mandating heavy steel beams and air bags.
I consider all of that good things.
Quote:
Mandating traction control systems that are mated with laggy, intrusive throttle drive-by-wire systems. Cross-platform engine and transmission usage in order to save costs to meet increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
That seems to be laziness on the part of manufacturers. There are very good Traction control systems that do a very good job without being intrusive.
I also consider stringent emission standards a good thing as well.
atopa2002 commented:
December 13, 2010, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Nah, not that many, I'm gentle on the beast We are in the market for a diesel, after renting a 118d, found the thing sweet. Thanks for the insight as always, Hack
You don't like turbo charged engines but prefers diesels ?. By the way if you are ready to sell your ZM pm me.
MrBonus commented:
December 13, 2010, 3:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
I consider all of that good things.
That seems to be laziness on the part of manufacturers. There are very good Traction control systems that do a very good job without being intrusive.
I also consider stringent emission standards a good thing as well.
That's a fair and valid opinion. One I don't necessarily share but that has more to do with my own childish reasons and devil-may-care bravado.
thekurgan commented:
December 13, 2010, 4:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by atopa2002 View Post
You don't like turbo charged engines but prefers diesels ?. By the way if you are ready to sell your ZM pm me.
Umm, yes, I have not seen the HPFP issue with the diesel, it still uses two independent turbochargers and is not badged as an M vehicle (no M sport pkg for me, thanks ). We are looking to replace the E90 after the lease just ran out, she [wife] does not want another gasoline turbo, she did like the 335d but she prefers something smaller. Too bad Mini doesn't have their diesels here.

The M coupe isn't for sale, we're just looking for another car at this time, looked at Lexus, Audi, BMW, Mini (clubman). I'll be keeping the M coupe, it may have a lot of value as there are fewer than 1850 in North America, it's very well built, has never had an issue and is a very raw vehicle.
CT commented:
December 13, 2010, 5:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Have you seen the M3's torque curve? It doesn't fall till redline Have you seen a 335i's torque curve? Have you seen a 911's torque curve on a dyno?

Show me a car that has a 30k redline with a turbo motor that is STREET LEGAL and is in mass production.
'30,000rpm' was most likely in reference to the turbine fan speed, not the engine speed.
galahad05 commented:
December 13, 2010, 5:48 pm

30k RPM is pretty close to the Mitsubishi turbos' redline. I'd post the technical spec on the N54 Mitsu turbos, but damn it, where did I put it?
galahad05 commented:
December 13, 2010, 5:55 pm

Oh HELL no. I was so far off it wasn't even funny.

Here are the specs:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/products/det...ification.html

The N54 uses a pair of TD03's.

...yes, you read that right: 230,000 RPM.
The HACK commented:
December 13, 2010, 6:51 pm

I think I've figured out why the 1M Coupe makes me so uncomfortable.

850CSi.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 13, 2010, 7:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT View Post
'30,000rpm' was most likely in reference to the turbine fan speed, not the engine speed.
Thank you for clarifying that.
Bimmerman42 commented:
December 13, 2010, 10:54 pm

Seems interesting to see the tremendous amount of negatives stated on this forum about BMW. What's a real M? Who cares. It's marketing like amg and everything. Else. It's perhaps more beefy in areas us rocket scientists no zippo about Amazing complaints about cars putting out 300 plus hp. it seems for every post about my sad little plain old 2006 325i which of course is the first of the body style there are 10 posts making fun of something about it. Is it even a real BMW? Cheap little buggy.
westwest888 commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerman42 View Post
Seems interesting to see the tremendous amount of negatives stated on this forum about BMW. What's a real M? Who cares. It's marketing like amg and everything. Else. It's perhaps more beefy in areas us rocket scientists no zippo about Amazing complaints about cars putting out 300 plus hp. it seems for every post about my sad little plain old 2006 325i which of course is the first of the body style there are 10 posts making fun of something about it. Is it even a real BMW? Cheap little buggy.
What some are trying to convey in this thread is that your 325i (like my old 325i) is arguably more track capable than this new M1 because you can put it on track for over 20 minutes without the computer preventing you from detonating the engine.

PhilipWOT commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:47 am

Wow. Overwhelming fail in this thread. Let me get this straight "LOL the valve cover looks like mine = its not an M car"


E92Submarine commented:
December 14, 2010, 8:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipWOT View Post
Wow. Overwhelming fail in this thread. Let me get this straight "LOL the valve cover looks like mine = its not an M car"


But it's the EXACT same engine as a 2007-2010 335i, why can't I get one of those stickers?

Where's BJ? I need a ///M ruling on this.
paximperium commented:
December 14, 2010, 8:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
But it's the EXACT same engine as a 2007-2010 335i, why can't I get one of those stickers?

Where's BJ? I need a ///M ruling on this.
So that brings up the repeated point.
Is the engine, the only thing that makes an ///M car?
thekurgan commented:
December 14, 2010, 9:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
So that brings up the repeated point.
Is the engine, the only thing that makes an ///M car?
No, but for myself and others, it is the one thing that keeps it from being an M car.
galahad05 commented:
December 14, 2010, 9:25 am

I could understand the argument against calling this an "M" if it was some other group or division which was designating this car as an "M". But it's the frickin' M Division of BMW that build up this car and called it an "M".
thekurgan commented:
December 14, 2010, 9:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
I could understand the argument against calling this an "M" if it was some other group or division which was designating this car as an "M". But it's the frickin' M Division of BMW that build up this car and called it an "M".
Then they are their own disappointment ... I maintain my opinion, I expected a special engine to compliment the suspension and diff. What really makes this much different than installing a Giken or Quaife diff, plus some KW clubsports, to go along with a JB3 on an ordinary 135i? If M supplies a special engine, adding all the extra aftermarket parts still discern it from the real deal.
thekurgan commented:
December 14, 2010, 9:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I think I've figured out why the 1M Coupe makes me so uncomfortable.

850CSi.
The engine bay was stunning, just to stare at it, yes, the good old days. Even the S65/S85 don't have the beauty of the S54 when it comes to the engine bay. The N54 is worse
pilotman commented:
December 14, 2010, 10:15 am

Why hasn't this been moved to the one series category?

It has nothing to do with the e9x.

Furthermore, as others have noted, there is only one single criteria that definitively determines whether a BMW is an M car: whether it is defined as such by BMW. It's a pointless discussion otherwise where this car falls on the continuum of Mness.

Move this to 1 series and let them continue the debate
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 10:31 am

I am hoping that the M division has spent some time improving the engine, and potential turbo overheat problems. BMW can charge a premium for M cars, and they do, to cover the extra cost of research and development of special parts (i.e. the "S" engines).

What 'worries' me is that there has been no effort to give the 1M engine a special designation - an "S" designation. If this were the case, then BMW would be going to greater lengths to point out the "all new" S73 (or whatever designation), or the "S72 based on the N54" engine, in the press releases and press track days. They do not seem to be doing this at all (so close to launch), and seem happy to allow the engine to be referred to as a tuned N54/N55.

The "M" has always been a brand, and it has reached legendary status because earlier cars have delivered in one way or another on that brand by their engines and/or their handling. You were getting what you paid for, and now the M brand is a very provocative (see thread above) subject. It is also very good for selling cars - just the chance to put "M" stickers and panels on your car allows BMW to charge a premium for body parts...and consumers lap it up. I think the 1M, by what I have seen so far, is using the M brand to cash in on what is essentially a 135is, a mainstream car rather than an M-division car.

Don't get me started on the X5/X6M! I would have liked to have been in the meeting where BMW management informed the M-division that they had to produce an M SUV!

[Obviously, this is based on my purely subjective assumption that the M-division is staffed with champions of motorsport performance rebelliously thumbing their nose at corporate head office in the pursuit of driving perfection - preferring to discuss fuel injection nozzle diameters instead of sales figures!]
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Then they are their own disappointment ... I maintain my opinion, I expected a special engine to compliment the suspension and diff. What really makes this much different than installing a Giken or Quaife diff, plus some KW clubsports, to go along with a JB3 on an ordinary 135i? If M supplies a special engine, adding all the extra aftermarket parts still discern it from the real deal.
Because this car most likely has revised control arms, tie rods, end links, sway bars, steering rack, suspension mount points, and all of the other critical goodies that comprise a proper performance suspension for proper geometry. It's substantially different than haphazardly throwing on a set of dampers and springs and calling it a performance suspension.
E92Submarine commented:
December 14, 2010, 11:52 am

So to make an analogy: BMW has built this gorgeous 5,000sq. ft mansion on a beautiful lakefront property, complete with an inground pool, private dock for your boat, and a 3 car garage, yet they've furnished the interior with junk from IKEA.
The HACK commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Because this car most likely has revised control arms, tie rods, end links, sway bars, steering rack, suspension mount points, and all of the other critical goodies that comprise a proper performance suspension for proper geometry. It's substantially different than haphazardly throwing on a set of dampers and springs and calling it a performance suspension.
ACTUALLY...

It's not unlike BMW to just throw on a set of dampers and springs and a couple of parts bin parts and call it a special "performance" package. And while ///M cars typically have a few more tricks up its sleeves, there's usually not that many different parts as you list.
thekurgan commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Because this car most likely has revised control arms, tie rods, end links, sway bars, steering rack, suspension mount points, and all of the other critical goodies that comprise a proper performance suspension for proper geometry. It's substantially different than haphazardly throwing on a set of dampers and springs and calling it a performance suspension.
LOL, you really think the components are that special, don't you? Ask how many ///M owners change their springs, opt out of the EDC for future suspension mods, etc.
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
ACTUALLY...

It's not unlike BMW to just throw on a set of dampers and springs and a couple of parts bin parts and call it a special "performance" package. And while ///M cars typically have a few more tricks up its sleeves, there's usually not that many different parts as you list.
Interesting. I appreciate the clarification.

I added the "most likely" to qualify my ignorance as I was operating under the assumption that M was similar to RS trim in Porsche speak.

I was recently looking at 993 RS components and the differences between the RS and standard Carrera is staggering. The control arms and lower shock mounts are entirely different, the tie rods are shorter which are mated to a different (slower) steering rack. The rear drop links are elongated and curved to clear underneath the rear control arms (Standard Carrera units go above the control arms and will actually hit the upper arms on hard compression if the car is lowered too much). Then you get the obvious chassis reinforcements, spring, and damper changes. Too costly for a meager HPDE junky unless you're looking for a terrible return on investment but certainly an amazing attention to detail to pick up fractions of seconds on your average road course.

But I digress...

I enjoy your posts by the way.
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
LOL, you really think the components are that special, don't you? Ask how many ///M owners change their springs, opt out of the EDC for future suspension mods, etc.
Don't take this the wrong way but most people who swap around spring and suspension components do so on the recommendation of vendors and other forum denizens based on opinions and impressions but few actually see any tangible performance benefit from doing so. I'm sure there are valid exceptions to this generalization but I take the "other people are doing it" approach to modification with a grain of salt.
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 12:54 pm

Regardless, if the components aren't "that special," why are you so up in arms over the ///M distinction?
07335i_sport commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:09 pm

From the Miata forum (www.miata.net)

"Let's start with power. The 1 Series M Coupe uses BMW's twin-turbocharged 3.0-liter inline-six, and while early estimates had the car pumping out as much as 350 horsepower, the final numbers are: 335 hp and 332 pound-feet of torque – exactly what you get out of this engine in the current Z4 sDrive35is. The car's ECU has an overboost function that provides an additional 37 lb-ft of twist at full tilt, and with your foot pressed hard into the right pedal, 0-60 will happen in just 4.7 seconds. Top speed is electronically limited at – you guessed it – 155 miles per hour."

I think they blew it. Its just the same run of the mill engine in many other lesser models. They should have just called it a 135is, which is all it really is.

M is truly dead
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
No, but for myself and others, it is the one thing that keeps it from being an M car.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:45 pm

I think M will truly be dead when they produce an "Md" (or "M3d" or "dM" or "3dM") - a car, not an inconsequential state on the Eastern seaboard.

Discuss. (either)

Technic commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
I think M will truly be dead when they produce an "Md" (or "M3d" or "dM" or "3dM") - a car, not an inconsequential state on the Eastern seaboard.

Discuss. (either)

I don't have a problem with a M diesel engine, either. The issue to me is that it has to have a very distinct and vastly superior performance tune than a regular production non-M diesel engine.

The M Division cost compromise with this 1M engine is hopefully temporary/once shot deal and not a sign of things to come. I don't think that the M Division will pull this cheap trick again for their own sake...
The HACK commented:
December 14, 2010, 1:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Interesting. I appreciate the clarification.

I added the "most likely" to qualify my ignorance as I was operating under the assumption that M was similar to RS trim in Porsche speak.
M is nothing like RS, by the way. Despite all my illogical hatred of all things Porsche, I do respect their sometimes loyalty to their enthusiast core values.

What's upgraded in the ///M line is different from model to model, of course.

On the E30 M3, the differences are dramatic. The wheel hub, control arms, steering racks, swaybars, both front and rear suspension except for trailing arm are replaced, in addition, the suspension mount bushings are different too.

On the E36 M3, not so much. While some of the suspension part numbers are different, the only things changed are the springs and shocks in the rear, spring and strut, plus strut thrust mount (or strut hat), plus steering rack.

On the E46 M3 it swung in the opposite direction again, the entire front suspension except for the bushings were changed out, including steering rack, and the entire rear suspension, including the rear subframe, was swapped out for beefier components.

On the E92 the changes fall somewhere between the drastic changes in the E46 to the mild E36 changes, the rear subframe remains the same, but a multitude of control arms are replaced and redesigned in addition to the springs and dampers.

On off-shoot M models like the E36/7 and E36/8 M Roadster and M Coupes, its different in that it shares parts from multiple platforms, with the front coming from the E36 and the rears coming from the E30, so the "upgraded" parts is a bit of a mixed bag, with the front end receiving the mild upgrade the E36 got compared to the non-M, the rear end getting the e30 M3 rear which isn't really that much different from the regular Z3. The E85 & E86 M Z4 Roadster and M Z4 Coupe are another "mixed bag" deal with the front end coming from an E36 and the rear end coming from an E46, but the normal Z4 is ALL E46...So there are quite a few components swapped out between the M and non-M, but it mainly was because parts bin stuff is used to assemble the MZ4. The steering rack is taken directly from the E46 M3 ZCP, the control arm actually came from a run of the mill E46 330i with ZHP, and the diff, while having a different part number, was taken directly from the E46 M3.

This, of course, does not include the engine which almost always is unique to each ///M, or not shared amongst the non-M vehicles.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I don't have a problem with a M diesel engine, either. The issue to me is that it has to have a very distinct and vastly superior performance tune than a regular production non-M diesel engine.

The M Division cost compromise with this 1M engine is hopefully temporary/once shot deal and not a sign of things to come. I don't think that the M Division will pull this cheap trick again for their own sake...
A high-revving diesel would be nuts! Something to "torque" about anyway!
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 2:07 pm

Interesting. You learn something every day. Thanks for the M primer.
The HACK commented:
December 14, 2010, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
A high-revving diesel would be nuts! Something to "torque" about anyway!
Diesel by it's own very nature can not be high revving.

The reason why is the "sparkless" nature of the combustion of fuel. Diesels does not require a spark plug, since to make it "burn" it's compressed to some insane high levels, like 14:1 compression rations. Combine that with a forced induction system you're looking at cylinders that needs to be very over-stroked in order to achieve that sort of compression, and therefore, by it's very nature, is not capable of revving to the same high RPMs that gasoline engines are capable of.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 2:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Diesel by it's own very nature can not be high revving.

The reason why is the "sparkless" nature of the combustion of fuel. Diesels does not require a spark plug, since to make it "burn" it's compressed to some insane high levels, like 14:1 compression rations. Combine that with a forced induction system you're looking at cylinders that needs to be very over-stroked in order to achieve that sort of compression, and therefore, by it's very nature, is not capable of revving to the same high RPMs that gasoline engines are capable of.
I know...but they can go faster than 5000rpm or whatever the current diesel revs too. I was trying to see what the Le Mans cars rev too...not that a road car would do these numbers.

Edit: They run 5-6000 rpm... interesting. The gas ALMS run about 12000 rpm and F1 is 18000. I think NASCAR is 20rpm
thekurgan commented:
December 14, 2010, 3:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
I know...but they can go faster than 5000rpm or whatever the current diesel revs too. I was trying to see what the Le Mans cars rev too...not that a road car would do these numbers.

Edit: They run 5-6000 rpm... interesting. The gas ALMS run about 12000 rpm and F1 is 18000. I think NASCAR is 20rpm
Not to 'jack, but I read last night Audi is releasing a new TDI V-6 for the 24 hours of Le Mans ... that will be interesting to get some specs on that.

[edit: link]
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101211/ALMS/312119999
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 3:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Not to 'jack, but I read last night Audi is releasing a new TDI V-6 for the 24 hours of Le Mans ... that will be interesting to get some specs on that.

[edit: link]
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101211/ALMS/312119999
The R18 is a stunning piece of motorsport.



///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 3:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
The R18 is a stunning piece of motorsport.



Not yet it isn't! LOL
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 3:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
Not yet it isn't! LOL
*Aesthetically stunning.

It would look sexy limping into the pit lane.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 14, 2010, 6:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
I think M will truly be dead when they produce an "Md" (or "M3d" or "dM" or "3dM") - a car, not an inconsequential state on the Eastern seaboard.

Discuss. (either)

The ///M Division died awhile ago. Actually, BMW as a brand died when the Joy campaign hit. Screw Joy. I want the Ultimate Driving Machine back.
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 14, 2010, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The ///M Division died awhile ago. Actually, BMW as a brand died when the Joy campaign hit. Screw Joy. I want the Ultimate Driving Machine back.
Is that the same M that you were Jonesing for 6 months ago?
MrBonus commented:
December 14, 2010, 7:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The ///M Division died awhile ago. Actually, BMW as a brand died when the Joy campaign hit. Screw Joy. I want the Ultimate Driving Machine back.
Says every enthusiast about insert manufacturer here. Cars are changing and manufacturers are forced to change with them.
The HACK commented:
December 14, 2010, 8:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Says every enthusiast about insert manufacturer here. Cars are changing and manufacturers are forced to change with them.
Actually, according to E30 owners the M division died nearly 20 years ago when they came out with the E36 M3.

According to E36 M3 owners, the M division died 8 years ago when they came out with the E46 M3.

According to E46 M3 owners, the M division died 2 years ago when the abandoned the mighty I6 and went with the V8 on the bastard of a car they called an E9X M3.



The 1M Coupe will likely set brand new sales records for the Motorsports division. So who are we to judge if ///M is dead or if the 1M Coupe is a true ///M or not?
westwest888 commented:
December 15, 2010, 2:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
LOL, you really think the components are that special, don't you? Ask how many ///M owners change their springs, opt out of the EDC for future suspension mods, etc.
As a counterpoint to this from someone who spent three years tuning their e90 suspension, the manufacturer knows what they are doing. Dinan knows what they are doing. And about 1 in 10 tuners that can afford a full page magazine ad know what they're going for your specific application - because they've done it more than zero times. You can roll your own but it's a lot of trial and error. It's fun too, but expensive and be prepared for always yearning for to get something just right. It's a good way to learn your car and attune to how minute changes in alignment translate into grip. Before you touch a single suspension component, start playing with your alignment. When you can't go any further in a particular dimension, start changing parts.

I thought the 2008 M3 suspension rode way too high. Part of the reason I could never justify that car (aside from 14 MPG with 16 gallon tank + gas guzzler tax) was I thought the suspension rode too high (I'd probably want to gut it) and I thought the cross drilled rotors while adequate were probably not the best application for motorsports. The M3 competition package has the suspension setup all M3 should have had from the start.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 15, 2010, 4:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
Is that the same M that you were Jonesing for 6 months ago?
I love the M3, and I would re-order one if I could. The current generation M3 is, in my opinion the last "true" ///M car we will see. B

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBonus View Post
Says every enthusiast about insert manufacturer here. Cars are changing and manufacturers are forced to change with them.
I'm a BMW fan at heart. I love their vehicles, and that's why my family has owned so many of them. ///M is just suppose to be something different, something exciting. Nothing exciting about an "M" car that has a regular 1/3 series engine with some body kits attached. I expected more. My loyalties are with BMW. I don't care how technology changes, that's not my issue. My issue is the M brand has been diluted and now is all about Money. The current gen M3 may as well be the final "true" M car we will ever see.
Technic commented:
December 15, 2010, 5:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
The 1M Coupe will likely set brand new sales records for the Motorsports division. So who are we to judge if ///M is dead or if the 1M Coupe is a true ///M or not?
Customers -potential and actual- tell ///M all the time what is a true ///M or not by sale numbers -trunk money aside. With the 1M only a 12-month production run, let's not put the cart before the horse, please...
///M-ratedE90 commented:
December 15, 2010, 7:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
As a counterpoint to this from someone who spent three years tuning their e90 suspension, the manufacturer knows what they are doing. Dinan knows what they are doing. And about 1 in 10 tuners that can afford a full page magazine ad know what they're going for your specific application - because they've done it more than zero times. You can roll your own but it's a lot of trial and error. It's fun too, but expensive and be prepared for always yearning for to get something just right. It's a good way to learn your car and attune to how minute changes in alignment translate into grip. Before you touch a single suspension component, start playing with your alignment. When you can't go any further in a particular dimension, start changing parts.

I thought the 2008 M3 suspension rode way too high. Part of the reason I could never justify that car (aside from 14 MPG with 16 gallon tank + gas guzzler tax) was I thought the suspension rode too high (I'd probably want to gut it) and I thought the cross drilled rotors while adequate were probably not the best application for motorsports. The M3 competition package has the suspension setup all M3 should have had from the start.
All I know is that when I put Eibach springs in, I felt the rode and handled better and although this is relative, the car didn't seem to roll as much, even before the springs settled. For $500, springs and install, it was worth the experiment. It worked as far as I can tell. And that is all that matters. I wanted a stiffer ride, more like an E46 M3 that I had, and the Eibachs delivered on that. I was more surprised that it did it without rattling my teeth out. I am waiting to see if it shortens the lifetime of the shocks. It could well do, I might not even have the car at the time they fail, but if I do, it is no big deal to swap them out for something else. Did it increase lap times? - I don't really know as I have never consistently driven 10/10ths for a whole lap ever and probably never will in my DD. I definitely go faster, but that is better technique, more practice and slightly bigger balls. I am still a long way from the limits of the car, and I might get there one day, and that's when I'll start really futzing with the set-up. But that is some time away, and it is the driving component behind the wheel that needs the time, money and attention.

Getting back to the debate. BMW have produced a cheap M car and they will sell them to folks who like driving around with M on their trunk. Some of them like it for performance (all will state that), some will but it so they can say they drive an M car and zoom imperiously around town at a fraction of the cars potential. BMW will sell the car to those waiting for CPO M3s...for a little bit extra, you can have a new M car. Whether or not the engine overheats at track days is a moot point to them. So few, relative to the number sold, (like M3s) will see a track in the first few years of ownership that I doubt BMW will really be bothered. They will have sold the cars already - they already know they have sold the cars before they even arrive in the US. They're happy. The customer will be happy too. The car will be quick, handle better than the average car - handle better than the average BMW - and give the customer plenty to smile about when on his own and talk about when with others. The rest of us can sit in the gallery and throw peanuts, but at the end of the day, the two main protagonists of the transaction will be happy. Win - win.
MrBonus commented:
December 15, 2010, 9:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Actually, according to E30 owners the M division died nearly 20 years ago when they came out with the E36 M3.

According to E36 M3 owners, the M division died 8 years ago when they came out with the E46 M3.

According to E46 M3 owners, the M division died 2 years ago when the abandoned the mighty I6 and went with the V8 on the bastard of a car they called an E9X M3.



The 1M Coupe will likely set brand new sales records for the Motorsports division. So who are we to judge if ///M is dead or if the 1M Coupe is a true ///M or not?
Right, that was my point. Ever talk to a 911 owner about the last "true" 911?

It's a '73 to some ('74 got crash bumpers and emissions equipment).

It's an '89 to some (Last year of internal model designation code 911 and the 964 gained power steering and ditched the torsion bars).

It's a '93 to some (993 went to a multi-link rear suspension from trailing arm).

It's a '98 to some (Water-cooling)

Same with Mitsubishi Evo owners.

The VI or IX may be the last Evo depending on who owns one.

It's a common condition of car ownership to think whatever car you own is the last desirable model regardless of how irrational that thought may be. It certainly seems a tad irrational with all of the above cars as each successive model manages to be faster while sacrificing no comfort if you were to look at it objectively rather than nitpicking the details of option packages, mandatory weight gain, and subjective things like "feel."
thekurgan commented:
December 15, 2010, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Actually, according to E30 owners the M division died nearly 20 years ago when they came out with the E36 M3.

According to E36 M3 owners, the M division died 8 years ago when they came out with the E46 M3.

According to E46 M3 owners, the M division died 2 years ago when the abandoned the mighty I6 and went with the V8 on the bastard of a car they called an E9X M3.



The 1M Coupe will likely set brand new sales records for the Motorsports division. So who are we to judge if ///M is dead or if the 1M Coupe is a true ///M or not?
I agree it will sell, as there are fewer and fewer diehards out there who remember when the ///M division used special engines in all their badged vehicles. At least all of the above vehicle models used a specially built engine, either massaged or completely built up from ///M, with an "S" designation and normal aspiration. If this 1M thing is a new direction for the company, so be it, I'll be holding onto the Z4M for a long time and leave these new M series for the next generation, and moreover, it's not a very good looking car, in M form or 128/135i form, but I digress ...
galahad05 commented:
December 15, 2010, 11:26 am

Well, I haven't seen this question answered. Or asked, really.


....


If BMW ended up calling this the 135is, say, or whatever else they wanted to call it....would the probable asking price by reasonable for people ($45k-$48k I'm hearing)?
In other words, regardless of whether this is M-worthy, would you guys consider this a good car? Something worth owning?
Technic commented:
December 15, 2010, 11:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Well, I haven't seen this question answered. Or asked, really.


....


If BMW ended up calling this the 135is, say, or whatever else they wanted to call it....would the probable asking price by reasonable for people ($45k-$48k I'm hearing)?
In other words, regardless of whether this is M-worthy, would you guys consider this a good car? Something worth owning?
At $46000 MSRP -most probably $40000 European Delivery- it is a great deal for a 1-Series with this level of standard equipment, regardless of this M discussion IMO. Now, if this sucker starts giving the same fuel pump problems as the "old" N54 then this is not worth owning at all to me.
MrBonus commented:
December 15, 2010, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Well, I haven't seen this question answered. Or asked, really.


....


If BMW ended up calling this the 135is, say, or whatever else they wanted to call it....would the probable asking price by reasonable for people ($45k-$48k I'm hearing)?
In other words, regardless of whether this is M-worthy, would you guys consider this a good car? Something worth owning?
On paper, absolutely. If I were in the market for one, I would track it and cooling and fuel pump concerns would drive me in another direction however.
jusmills commented:
December 16, 2010, 5:02 pm

Is it possible that BMW was trying to breathe a little life into the 1 series platform. From an engineering standpoint, it doesn't make a bit of sense to pump a bunch of dollars into the development of a 1-series M on the current platform, which will be on its way out in a year or two. It does make sense to produce a stop-gap car to fill a need (real or perceived) using M-parts bin materials. Spend a little development time and use this vehicle run as a test bed to gage customer acceptance. That buys the M-guys time to properly develop a 1-series M engine for the upcoming version, while extracting every bit of profit from the current platform.
galahad05 commented:
December 16, 2010, 5:23 pm

Put that way, I guess I'd be a fool to get one of these then.
thumper_330 commented:
December 17, 2010, 9:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Put that way, I guess I'd be a fool to get one of these then.
I think everyone's going to have an opinion on this car, and no two are probably completely alike. For my own part, when I go to buy a new car either mid 2011 or early 2012 the 1 Series M will be on my short list of cars to look at. I view it as a car that remains true to the spirit of the M cars of the past that also recognizes the realities of today's markets. I like it, and will eventually vote with my wallet.

Which car I buy is going to depend a lot on what I think of the 1 Series M by the time I actually buy. The list is short at the moment containing a handful of BMW's and at least one Audi... and there's plenty of time for me to decide.
rcleme05 commented:
December 21, 2010, 1:30 am

It's sort of an A-cup //M, if you know what I mean....
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 21, 2010, 3:45 am

This car will sell like hotcakes, weather it's a true ///M car or not.
rtgirard commented:
December 21, 2010, 10:34 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HXVx...layer_embedded

Mostly press-release video. The driving starts around 6:50.

And the whole thing makes me pine away for the E30.
fahrhaus commented:
December 21, 2010, 2:13 pm

To reiterate a post I made in the 1 series forum:

The first car to wear the "M" livery was the 2002 Turbo in 1974. It had a powerplant out of the 2002tii, with lowered compression and a KKK non-intercooled turbocharger. It was not a bespoke engine by any stretch of the imagination - just a regular production engine with a few bolt-on bits of forced aspiration, suspension parts, recaro seats, wheel arch extensions, and a different gauge cluster. The second was the M1, which was, indeed, a bespoke engine. Then came the M535i (NOT the same as the M5), which was also not a bespoke engine. The American-spec E36 M3 and Series 1 Z3M Roadster both had the 240 bhp 3.2Litre engine that was a modification of the 325i/328i engine of that era - M50 I believe - and that wasn't a bespoke engine, either.

The 1 Series M Coupe (try saying that 3 times fast!) may have a "production" engine, but it's been tuned a la the Z35iS. It sports different suspension, fenders, front and rear air dams, brakes, and a true mechanical diff like all good M cars should.

As someone else said, these cars are "more than just the sum of [their] collective parts". An M is distinguished not by simple 0-60 times or braking distances but by an overall purity of balance, performance, and handling that isn't found in lesser models - no matter how many mods one puts on a base car, it's never quite an M unless you go to ridiculous lengths to get there, like installing a mechanical diff, getting rid of that awful electric steering, etc.

I, for one, am putting my name on the list for one of these as soon as possible - couldn't imagine a more interesting and current interpretation of the M philosophy. No, it will likely not be as raw as my E85 M Roadster or TheKurgan's E86 M Coupe, but given the emissions and pedestrian safety regulations with which new cars need to comply, it may be the closest thing we're going to find to the M philosophy in the years to come. I love my car, but it's three model years old, using technology that's eight model years old from the E46 M3. If we expect progress in other areas (safety and reliability being primary among them), we'll have to expect a little bit of generic-ising across the model range. Whilst the 1 Series M coupe doesn't have a coach-built engine, it will hopefully also NOT need valve shims every 20K miles or other heavy engine maintenance as our older, normally-aspirated, "race-bred" engines do.

Another small point - the 1 Series M Coupe, I'm told, weighs about 77lbs LESS than an E36 M3. Perhaps it's not so heavy after all.

As Colin Chapman said, "First, add lightness".
E92-Lighting commented:
December 21, 2010, 2:37 pm

i rather have an M3 if i were to pick between the two choices
galahad05 commented:
December 21, 2010, 2:55 pm

You could buy a 1M + a used 335i for the price of that new M3....
TerraPhantm commented:
December 22, 2010, 6:36 am

I think everyone would be singing praise for this car if BMW put the S54 in there instead of the N54, even if the car ended up performing worse as a result.

M knows what they're doing, and this car did get the full M treatment for its suspension. By all accounts this car drives really well, isn't that what matters ultimately?

Considering how much those suspension bits, differential, and brakes would cost aftermarket, I don't think a ~$10k increase over the 135i is a bad deal at all.
KevinM commented:
December 24, 2010, 2:15 pm

Wow, just look at all the responses...

This is going to be a very fun car to drive. Put an M on it, put an "s" on it, don't put anything on it; I could care less.

Take a strong motor, give it a bit more push (with overboost that can boost the torque to 500 nM - that's 368 lb-ft!), add the M3 suspension with a true mechanical LSD, widen the body (that's NOT cheap) - all for < $10K over a 135i - what's not to love? I really want to thank BMW for making this car.

Given there will be only approximately 1000 cars imported to the US, and the run is for one MY only, those of you who already hate the car won't really have to worry about it too much.
rcleme05 commented:
April 4, 2011, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM View Post
Wow, just look at all the responses...

This is going to be a very fun car to drive. Put an M on it, put an "s" on it, don't put anything on it; I could care less.

Take a strong motor, give it a bit more push (with overboost that can boost the torque to 500 nM - that's 368 lb-ft!), add the M3 suspension with a true mechanical LSD, widen the body (that's NOT cheap) - all for < $10K over a 135i - what's not to love? I really want to thank BMW for making this car.

Given there will be only approximately 1000 cars imported to the US, and the run is for one MY only, those of you who already hate the car won't really have to worry about it too much.

Motor is by historical precident unreliable; fuel pump on fourth redesign.

Steering is less connected than excellent mechanical system in z4m. 1er is heavier.

Car nut buddy just bought a 2010 Evo instead of the 135. It handled better and has better tuning potential.

So is the 1er capable, yeah. Equal? nah.

Will it be Fun (ish?) to drive? Maybe.

Bottom line... It's a German Civic with a tune and a body kit. IMHO.

Watch the definitive clip (loaded with *accurate* technical critique) here (resurrected):

definitive CLIP
///M-ratedE90 commented:
April 4, 2011, 11:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcleme05 View Post
Motor is by historical precident unreliable; fuel pump on fourth redesign.

Steering is less connected than excellent mechanical system in z4m. 1er is heavier.

Car nut buddy just bought a 2010 Evo instead of the 135. It handled better and has better tuning potential.

So is the 1er capable, yeah. Equal? nah.

Will it be Fun (ish?) to drive? Maybe.

Bottom line... It's a German Civic with a tune and a body kit. IMHO.

Watch the definitive clip (loaded with *accurate* technical critique) here (resurrected):

definitive CLIP
Whoever generated that clip was an absolute f**king genius. If only he posted here and shared his wisdom with us, the unworthy...
captainaudio commented:
April 5, 2011, 12:06 am

All of the manufacturers have sold out and have abandoned their roots.

As far as I am concerned my 1992 Lexus SC300 was the last real Rebadged Toyota.

CA
tturedraider commented:
April 5, 2011, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
Whoever generated that clip was an absolute f**king genius. If only he posted here and shared his wisdom with us, the unworthy...

Amen!! That was hilarious. Of course, I'm a pretty big fanboi, so I don't think things are as dire as others might. I'll reference again, as I did a day or two ago, the post in Roundel of all the gnashing of teeth and hand wringing over how BMW was hopelessly lost......then to reveal the comments were 25 - 30 years old. Don't jump ship now.
hpowders commented:
April 5, 2011, 8:10 am

C&D had a comparo involving the new 1 Series M coupe in the May, 2011 issue and while it did in fact win the comparo, it only achieved a 23 out of 25 in "Fun To Drive". To me that is the most significant finding.

With all the hype and seemingly endless waiting for this car to finally arrive, it only got a 23 out of 25 from a car magazine with a BMW bent and for me, that's not good enough.

Yes, I expected at least a 24 and possibly a 25.

When I read a C&D comparo, it is the "Fun To Drive" component all the way down at the bottom of the "Final Results" that I read first. Anything less than 24-I'm simply not interested.

In sum, the 1 Series M Sport coupe with all that hype-that it is the car all BMW enthusiasts are waiting for-gets a lukewarm "Fun To Drive" score from an important car magazine with a built-in BMW bias.

So, given that the last two times C&D rated an M3, the Fun To Drive score was 25 out of 25, I would say the 1 Series M coupe is only a pretender.
beden1 commented:
April 5, 2011, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
C&D had a comparo involving the new 1 Series M coupe in the May, 2011 issue and while it did in fact win the comparo, it only achieved a 23 out of 25 in "Fun To Drive". To me that is the most significant finding.

With all the hype and seemingly endless waiting for this car to finally arrive, it only got a 23 out of 25 from a car magazine with a BMW bent and for me, that's not good enough.

Yes, I expected at least a 24 and possibly a 25.

When I read a C&D comparo, it is the "Fun To Drive" component all the way down at the bottom of the "Final Results" that I read first. Anything less than 24-I'm simply not interested.

In sum, the 1 Series M Sport coupe with all that hype-that it is the car all BMW enthusiasts are waiting for-gets a lukewarm "Fun To Drive" score from an important car magazine with a built-in BMW bias.

So, given that the last two times C&D rated an M3, the Fun To Drive score was 25 out of 25, I would say the 1 Series M coupe is only a pretender.
While magazines are interesting to read, I think the final determination has to be actual seat-of-the-pants driving experience. I was not expecting the 1M to be in direct competition to the M3, as BMW has put too much into the M3 to hurt it's image by producing a lesser expensive and smaller carbon copy.
Rock36 commented:
April 5, 2011, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
C&D had a comparo involving the new 1 Series M coupe in the May, 2011 issue and while it did in fact win the comparo, it only achieved a 23 out of 25 in "Fun To Drive". To me that is the most significant finding.

With all the hype and seemingly endless waiting for this car to finally arrive, it only got a 23 out of 25 from a car magazine with a BMW bent and for me, that's not good enough.

Yes, I expected at least a 24 and possibly a 25.

When I read a C&D comparo, it is the "Fun To Drive" component all the way down at the bottom of the "Final Results" that I read first. Anything less than 24-I'm simply not interested.

In sum, the 1 Series M Sport coupe with all that hype-that it is the car all BMW enthusiasts are waiting for-gets a lukewarm "Fun To Drive" score from an important car magazine with a built-in BMW bias.

So, given that the last two times C&D rated an M3, the Fun To Drive score was 25 out of 25, I would say the 1 Series M coupe is only a pretender.

I actually really hate those metrics the magazines use like "fun to drive". I mean cars have "won" comparos in those magazines based solely on those subjective "fun to drive" or "gotta have it factor" assessments.
FCBayernFTW commented:
April 5, 2011, 12:01 pm

I have to say, I wasn't a believer when I first saw it. I didn't even want to consider the thought of a 1M... A COMPACT 1er?!

It's grown on me. Honestly, it's too small of a vehicle for what I need at this point in my life. If I were 'mr moneybags', I would definitely have one of these for the track/weekends.
Rock36 commented:
April 5, 2011, 12:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jocamryn View Post
I have to say, I wasn't a believer when I first saw it. I didn't even want to consider the thought of a 1M... A COMPACT 1er?!

It's grown on me. Honestly, it's too small of a vehicle for what I need at this point in my life. If I were 'mr moneybags', I would definitely have one of these for the track/weekends.
+1 I love the idea of the car myself as well, but I am completely out of the market for it. I will admire it from a distance.
BatteryPowered commented:
April 5, 2011, 1:58 pm

I don't understand the obsession of some of the people on this thread with NA engines and them being "true enthusiasts" engines.

Turbo engines were historically used in motorsports starting hell knows when. They used turbos in group B rally cars, they used them in F1 cars and so on.

I bet at the time "car enthusiasts" were crying "give us turbo engines" these NA engines don't have nearly enough torque for us. Yet, technology was in its prime and not reliable enough for even limited production consumer sports cars.

Now turbo is finally here and it's reliable . . . everyone wants NA engines. . .

How many of you track your car? . . . now how many of you drag with Mustangs from stop light?
Rock36 commented:
April 5, 2011, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
I don't understand the obsession of some of the people on this thread with NA engines and them being "true enthusiasts" engines.

Turbo engines were historically used in motorsports starting hell knows when. They used turbos in group B rally cars, they used them in F1 cars and so on.

I bet at the time "car enthusiasts" were crying "give us turbo engines" these NA engines don't have nearly enough torque for us. Yet, technology was in its prime and not reliable enough for even limited production consumer sports cars.

Now turbo is finally here and it's reliable . . . everyone wants NA engines. . .

How many of you track your car? . . . now how many of you drag with Mustangs from stop light?
You are right that some people or groups will always complain, but I think the source of this particular debate is that ///M Gmbh once stated that they would always produce N/A high reving engines or something to that effect...and that they would produce unique engines to their line, so I think some people feel that is a bit of a betrayal of the traditional ///M badge.

I really don't have an issue with forced induction myself, but I can also see the complaint that this engine is simply just the same engine as the 335is with an M badge on it and some extra fuel mapping.
beden1 commented:
April 5, 2011, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
I don't understand the obsession of some of the people on this thread with NA engines and them being "true enthusiasts" engines.

Turbo engines were historically used in motorsports starting hell knows when. They used turbos in group B rally cars, they used them in F1 cars and so on.

I bet at the time "car enthusiasts" were crying "give us turbo engines" these NA engines don't have nearly enough torque for us. Yet, technology was in its prime and not reliable enough for even limited production consumer sports cars.

Now turbo is finally here and it's reliable . . . everyone wants NA engines. . .

How many of you track your car? . . . now how many of you drag with Mustangs from stop light?
You don't have to race on the track to feel the performance difference between a typical 8 cylinder NA engine and a 6 cylinder with turbo(s). The larger displacement NA engine is smoother throughout the power band and pulls stronger at the get go, whereas the turbo engine hesitates and really likes the higher RPMs in order to ring out the performance.

They have also been using super chargers for many years and possibly even before turbos, and IMO, they are closer to a larger displacement NA engine in performance over an engine with a turbo. Much smoother and more responsive acceleration as compared to the turbo.
hpowders commented:
April 6, 2011, 8:23 am

A few posts back, I was knocking the new 1M Coupe because it only got a 23/25 in C&D for "fun to drive." As others may have mentioned, this is a non-quantifiable number and is strictly subjective. However, I have found "fun to drive" pretty much in line with my own test drives of C&D comparo test vehicles. I hope some folks here gets to drive a 1M coupe and M3 coupe back to back and will post their findings on Bimmerfest.

As an aside, C&D also tested the BMW 750Li in a luxury sedan comparo and it came in dead last. The car got 6/10 in steering. This scares me. The new 5 Series was also criticized for its steering. Seems like a spreading infection and I doubt the next generation 3 Series will have immunity. The fun to drive component was only 16/25. I've never seen a BMW ever ranked that low.
Rock36 commented:
April 6, 2011, 8:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
A few posts back, I was knocking the new 1M Coupe because it only got a 23/25 in C&D for "fun to drive." As others may have mentioned, this is a non-quantifiable number and is strictly subjective. However, I have found "fun to drive" pretty much in line with my own test drives of C&D comparo test vehicles. I hope some folks here gets to drive a 1M coupe and M3 coupe back to back and will post their findings on Bimmerfest.

As an aside, C&D also tested the BMW 750Li in a luxury sedan comparo and it came in dead last. The car got 6/10 in steering. This scares me. The new 5 Series was also criticized for its steering. Seems like a spreading infection and I doubt the next generation 3 Series will have immunity. The fun to drive component was only 16/25. I've never seen a BMW ever ranked that low.
Here is why I was totally turned off by those subjective metrics:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

In this comparison, the Pontiac GTO lost by one point to the newly restyled 2005 Mustang GT. The Pontiac GTO scored higher in just about everyway against the mustang except the "gotta-have-it" factor. The GTO had 18/25 and the mustang received 25/25 points. The only reason the Mustang "won" this comparo was the gotta have it factor. Those 7 extra gotta have it points swung the Mustang to a 1 point lead.

Ever since this article, I've personally considered those scores BS.
Technic commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
A few posts back, I was knocking the new 1M Coupe because it only got a 23/25 in C&D for "fun to drive." As others may have mentioned, this is a non-quantifiable number and is strictly subjective. However, I have found "fun to drive" pretty much in line with my own test drives of C&D comparo test vehicles. I hope some folks here gets to drive a 1M coupe and M3 coupe back to back and will post their findings on Bimmerfest.

As an aside, C&D also tested the BMW 750Li in a luxury sedan comparo and it came in dead last. The car got 6/10 in steering. This scares me. The new 5 Series was also criticized for its steering. Seems like a spreading infection and I doubt the next generation 3 Series will have immunity. The fun to drive component was only 16/25. I've never seen a BMW ever ranked that low.
... and in the same C&D issue they reported that the 7-Series sold around 8 times what the Audi A8 and the Jaguar XJ did last year. The 5-Series with the same steering criticism sold more last year than the A6 and the G37 as well, and it also finished last in a C&D comparo to those two same cars.

In other words, a C&D comparo only means something if it means something to whoever is reading it.
FCBayernFTW commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
Here is why I was totally turned off by those subjective metrics:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

In this comparison, the Pontiac GTO lost by one point to the newly restyled 2005 Mustang GT. The Pontiac GTO scored higher in just about everyway against the mustang except the "gotta-have-it" factor. The GTO had 18/25 and the mustang received 25/25 points. The only reason the Mustang "won" this comparo was the gotta have it factor. Those 6 extra gotta have it points swung the Mustang to a 1 point lead.

Ever since this article, I've personally considered those scores BS.
For me the Camaro SS has more of a "gotta have it factor" than the Mustang... But you know what they say about opinions...
Rock36 commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jocamryn View Post
For me the Camaro SS has more of a "gotta have it factor"... But you know what they say about opinions...
I think I agree now that it is 2011, but back in 2005 the Camaro had been dead for 3 years and this new Camaro wasn't even a dream yet.

Actually I think the success of the 05 Mustang helped bring the new Camaro back...but yeah that is just my opinion as well, and I do know what they say about those...
hpowders commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:38 am

Well, I admit those comparos have a strong subjective element to them and maybe C&D is attempting to demonstrate they are not in bed with BMW after all.

Also I would venture a guess that most folks buying the 7 Series aren't eagerly waiting by their mailbox for the latest issue of C&D. In other words, 7 Series sales do not positively correlate with a last place finish in a C&D comparo.

However, if I was about to drive a 1M coupe for the first time, I would find the 23/25 disappointing-this should have been a grand slam dunk, no questions asked: 25/25.
Rock36 commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
Well, I admit those comparos have a strong subjective element to them and maybe C&D is attempting to demonstrate they are not in bed with BMW after all.

Also I would venture a guess that most folks buying the 7 Series aren't eagerly waiting by their mailbox for the latest issue of C&D. In other words, 7 Series sales do not positively correlate with a last place finish in a C&D comparo.

However, if I was about to drive a 1M coupe for the first time, I would find the 23/25 disappointing-this should have been a grand slam dunk, no questions asked: 25/25.
Can you link that particular article? Or I guess I can search I guess on the website. Was there even any reason given for the 23/25 instead of a 25/25? I'm curious what other cars out there received 25/25 in the fun factor from C&D. Maybe C&D has only given out a few 25/25 scores in the fun factor category. If that is the case, then maybe a 23/25 is actually pretty good. I'm just spit balling here.
hpowders commented:
April 6, 2011, 9:51 am

It's probably not on their website yet-the issue just came out-check C&D site in about 2 weeks-or go to your nearest mega-supermarket or bookstore and browse. They may have it in their magazine section-C&D, May, 2011.
tturedraider commented:
April 7, 2011, 12:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jocamryn View Post
I have to say, I wasn't a believer when I first saw it. I didn't even want to consider the thought of a 1M... A COMPACT 1er?!

It's grown on me. Honestly, it's too small of a vehicle for what I need at this point in my life. If I were 'mr moneybags', I would definitely have one of these for the track/weekends.
Did you not watch that GREAT video?! You'd only be able to do five hot laps.
BobsM3Coupe commented:
April 7, 2011, 3:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You don't have to race on the track to feel the performance difference between a typical 8 cylinder NA engine and a 6 cylinder with turbo(s). The larger displacement NA engine is smoother throughout the power band and pulls stronger at the get go, whereas the turbo engine hesitates and really likes the higher RPMs in order to ring out the performance.

They have also been using super chargers for many years and possibly even before turbos, and IMO, they are closer to a larger displacement NA engine in performance over an engine with a turbo. Much smoother and more responsive acceleration as compared to the turbo.
But the supercharger puts out what to me is an annoying whine.
beden1 commented:
April 7, 2011, 9:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe View Post
But the supercharger puts out what to me is an annoying whine.
Our S4 has no supercharger whine. But, I've driven a couple of Calloway Corvettes and Camaros, and they definitely have that whine that I don't like either. 6 cylinder Audi versus 8 cylinder Corvette/Camaro is probably the reason for the noise difference.
Rock36 commented:
April 7, 2011, 11:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Our S4 has no supercharger whine. But, I've driven a couple of Calloway Corvettes and Camaros, and they definitely have that whine that I don't like either. 6 cylinder Audi versus 8 cylinder Corvette/Camaro is probably the reason for the noise difference.
Ha ha, and I think all the noise is also more meaningful to the typical Camaro and Corvette crowd, not to mention there is noticeable S/C whine in the Mustang GT500s too. But those guys typically like the audible whine. Come to think of it, the turbo crowd a la WRX STIs, EVOs, and GTIs also seem to like extra loud blow off valve noises too, the younger modder crowds I mean... ha ha.
beden1 commented:
April 7, 2011, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
Ha ha, and I think all the noise is also more meaningful to the typical Camaro and Corvette crowd, not to mention there is noticeable S/C whine in the Mustang GT500s too. But those guys typically like the audible whine. Come to think of it, the turbo crowd a la WRX STIs, EVOs, and GTIs also seem to like extra loud blow off valve noises too, the younger modder crowds I mean... ha ha.
My son's WRX has the blow off valve whoosh which he kind of likes, but his exhaust sounds sweet. I'd rather have the exhaust noise than from the engine. It's strange if you're not used to it.
BatteryPowered commented:
April 7, 2011, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My son's WRX has the blow off valve whoosh which he kind of likes, but his exhaust sounds sweet. I'd rather have the exhaust noise than from the engine. It's strange if you're not used to it.
But whoosh is only $19.95 vs aftermarket exhausts.

http://www.turbowhistler.net/blow-off-valve/index.htm
beden1 commented:
April 7, 2011, 3:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
But whoosh is only $19.95 vs aftermarket exhausts.

http://www.turbowhistler.net/blow-off-valve/index.htm
I wish we knew about this before spending probably a few hundred dollars for his real blow off valve.!
Chop362 commented:
April 7, 2011, 9:31 pm

My answer is a definitive NO.But it is nice,It's compact and fast and like another poster stated it will had pretty good value come sell/trade time.
Rock36 commented:
April 8, 2011, 7:07 pm

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

Fairly entertaining article that touches on a few things mentioned in the thread.
drdannywong commented:
May 6, 2011, 12:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
Yes I know there is a lot more to a ///M car (or truck) than just the engine. However, looking under the hood of the new 1 ///M coupe revealed something startling! Boy this engine looks a hell of a lot like the N54 unit in my 335i, but it states that it is "Powered by BMW M"

What gives!?!?. Is my 335i a ///M? Where can I buy that sticker?



Read more news about the New BMW 1 Series M Coupe
I think BMW should stop putting everything with the M badge. For my personal thinking, the new 1M coupe is just a 135i upgrade version. It doesn't have an unique engine that belong to its class. It is different from the E30, E36 and E46 M3. You won't find the same of similar engine in any non-M car. Can I say my ZHP is a 3M car ? definitely not ! I prefer to save more money to buy a real M car instead of this fake version, period !
drdannywong commented:
May 6, 2011, 1:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Seconded.
This argument is about as silly as arguing if the Lexus LFA is a proper Lexus or if the new Lincoln SUV is really a Lincoln or just a Ford Edge or if some new Audi is is actually an Audi because it uses a VW chasis.

The 1M is an M car because it is made by the M-division. It's a brand. They could slap it on a Mini and call it an M...an M2...hmmm
ZHP is also upgrade by M division with new cam and software, can I say it is also a M car ?
Of course: NO...so 1M is not an M
drdannywong commented:
May 6, 2011, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
I'm saying it's not an ///M. An ///M car needs a hand built race motor. This is an ///M sport package for a regular car.
absolutely agree !
drdannywong commented:
May 6, 2011, 1:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Submarine View Post
The point of this thread was really to ask the question: Can they just update the software on the N54 and call it a M? The suspension, brakes and diff are all M components no doubt, but the engine is still just a N54 some updated software.

Bottom line, it's a ///M car designed by BMW on a budget.
What make the M car unique is no matter how many after market parts you put it in your regular bmw, it still cannot be a M car because that unique M engine. Those M diff, M suspension or software is an upgrade parts. A real M3 must have its own M engine not sharing with other line.
BMW-Esq. commented:
May 6, 2011, 2:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by drdannywong View Post
What make the M car unique is no matter how many after market parts you put it in your regular bmw, it still cannot be a M car because that unique M engine. Those M diff, M suspension or software is an upgrade parts. A real M3 must have its own M engine not sharing with other line.
+1
The 1M is not, and never will be a real M division car. This entire 1er gen is a joke. I'm still waiting on the real 1er and M1

beden1 commented:
May 6, 2011, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-Esq. View Post
+1
The 1M is not, and never will be a real M division car. This entire 1er gen is a joke. I'm still waiting on the real 1er and M1

I thought I was the only one who felt this way!
Rock36 commented:
May 6, 2011, 2:51 pm

Well plainly speaking it IS an M car, because BMW has designated it as such and ///M Gmbh has allowed it. Just because it breaks tradition, the engine is borrowed from other standard BMWs, the suspension lifted from an M3, or whatever else, it doesn't change how BMW has approached the 1er M coupe. No one has to like it, or a agree, but it is what it is, and tranditionalists can't change it.

Finally the 1er has been around in Germany for a lot longer than the US, usually as a 5 door hatch, and mostly diesels. As with most things, North America only gets a fraction of what BMW truly offers, and the 1 series might be a joke in North America but it makes sense here, especially with the expanded line of 1 series offerings.

FWIW ///M sport packages are nothing new either.
noho335 commented:
May 6, 2011, 3:22 pm

News flash: No one here gets to decide what an M car is or not. BMW does. This is how it works - BMW designs and makes the cars - you just get to look at them, buy them, drive them or not. That's the limit of your official involvement in the process. Sorry to disappoint you.
Capobranco commented:
May 6, 2011, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
Well plainly speaking it IS an M car, because BMW has designated it as such and ///M Gmbh has allowed it. Just because it breaks tradition, the engine is borrowed from other standard BMWs, the suspension lifted from an M3, or whatever else, it doesn't change how BMW has approached the 1er M coupe. No one has to like it, or a agree, but it is what it is, and tranditionalists can't change it.....
+1

I agree but in the final analysis I prefer to focus on the car and not get hung up on names.

I find the 1M to be compelling.

Aggressive distinctive styling that clearly conveys speed and athletic prowess.

Short wheel base, super quick steering, M3 pack with monster Michelins and brakes

Powerful N54 - 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds and offering great flexibility.
(Spirited mountain jousts at 8/10s should be pure driving pleasure).

A purposeful interior that comfortably accommodates my 6’ 3" frame + space for luggage and canine.

Fully loaded for less than $60K.

BMW calls it M – I call it sensational.
beden1 commented:
May 6, 2011, 3:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by noho335 View Post
News flash: No one here gets to decide what an M car is or not. BMW does. This is how it works - BMW designs and makes the cars - you just get to look at them, buy them, drive them or not. That's the limit of your official involvement in the process. Sorry to disappoint you.
Their company, but we can certainly voice our opinions.

I just don't get what the target market is for the 1 series? It's small and expensive. The size would be best suited for a high school kid, but the price is too high for most. I know from my own kids and their friends who are now college graduates, that they feel the 1 series is a kiddie car that looks weird. So, who is buying these cars?

We live in an affluent area where there are many BMWs of most varieties, like they are giving them away. I have only seen one 1 Series on the road in the past 5 weeks. The two dealers I visited during the last two weeks had none on their lots.
Rock36 commented:
May 6, 2011, 4:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Their company, but we can certainly voice our opinions.

I just don't get what the target market is for the 1 series? It's small and expensive. The size would be best suited for a high school kid, but the price is too high for most. I know from my own kids and their friends who are now college graduates, that they feel the 1 series is a kiddie car that looks weird. So, who is buying these cars?

We live in an affluent area where there are many BMWs of most varieties, like they are giving them away. I have only seen one 1 Series on the road in the past 5 weeks. The two dealers I visited during the last two weeks had none on their lots.
I think that is an extremely valid question for the North American market. On pure speculation, I would say it was an attempt to widen the performance image of the brand. Lots of brands are coming out with performance versions of otherwise utilitarian or econo cars like VW Beetle R, or even the Audi RS3.

Like I touched upon earlier the 1 series here in Germany is a broader line, and much cheaper and affordable overall.
khovik commented:
May 6, 2011, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Their company, but we can certainly voice our opinions.

I just don't get what the target market is for the 1 series? It's small and expensive. The size would be best suited for a high school kid, but the price is too high for most. I know from my own kids and their friends who are now college graduates, that they feel the 1 series is a kiddie car that looks weird. So, who is buying these cars?

We live in an affluent area where there are many BMWs of most varieties, like they are giving them away. I have only seen one 1 Series on the road in the past 5 weeks. The two dealers I visited during the last two weeks had none on their lots.
In Europe the 1 series is a typical 2nd car used for commutes and inner city driving. I think most are equipped with 18d or 20d engines. The 1 series is almost as common as 3 series among my friends back in Norway ( insane import taxes must take some of the blame )

Personally I think my next car will be a 1M. Currently the kids are too small to easily get into a 2 door ( rearward facing seats ), but in a few years time, I can get a non-4 door car again. The 1m is more appealing than the 3 series due to lower weight and good price. ( I _really_ hate how much the E90 weight ).
Rock36 commented:
May 6, 2011, 4:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by khovik View Post
In Europe the 1 series is a typical 2nd car used for commutes and inner city driving. I think most are equipped with 18d or 20d engines. The 1 series is almost as common as 3 series among my friends back in Norway ( insane import taxes must take some of the blame )
That and by far the majority are also 3 and 5 door hatch versions, at least in Germany.
thekurgan commented:
May 6, 2011, 4:52 pm

I believe China has surpassed North America in market for BMW, and wouldn't be surprised of many of the 1s are being sent there. Just a thought. I think the best, funnest BMW right now is the 128i, but that's only because we don't get the 116/118/120d here
noho335 commented:
May 6, 2011, 8:07 pm

I think the 1 is a compelling car because it is more in line with the early 3's. The 3 has gotten pretty large and expensive. I'm not sure why the smaller size car makes it more for "high school kids". I've had a 6, two 5's, a 3 and now a MINI. I like having a small car in the family and I really like the size of the early 3s. I think a stripped down 1 is logical. Loading it up with a lot of features is what makes it questionable for the price, I think.

BTW - The automotive press seems to loving the 1M. Part of it is size to power.
paximperium commented:
May 6, 2011, 8:49 pm

Change the entire car but leave the engine the same and magically it's not an ///M.
Whatever
beden1 commented:
May 6, 2011, 11:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by noho335 View Post
I think the 1 is a compelling car because it is more in line with the early 3's. The 3 has gotten pretty large and expensive. I'm not sure why the smaller size car makes it more for "high school kids". I've had a 6, two 5's, a 3 and now a MINI. I like having a small car in the family and I really like the size of the early 3s. I think a stripped down 1 is logical. Loading it up with a lot of features is what makes it questionable for the price, I think.

BTW - The automotive press seems to loving the 1M. Part of it is size to power.
I had a 1979 320i and don't remember it being as small and cramped as the 1 series feels to me. In fact, it was a very comfortable car with ample leg room for my 6'4" body.

I agree that BMW should make a stripped down version of the 3 Series, and preferably, only available with a manual transmission.

I really like the retro looks of the Mini Coopers and considered looking at them in memory of the two MGs I used to have. But alas, it was too cramped inside for me.

The small car in our family is my ZO6!
johnc_22 commented:
May 7, 2011, 9:43 am

The 3 Series is too large, heavy and only getting larger. For a single person or someone wanting a second car, something the size of the 1 Series makes perfect sense. It's a shame they don't bring the hatchbacks to the US.
thekurgan commented:
May 7, 2011, 10:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
The 3 Series is too large, heavy and only getting larger. For a single person or someone wanting a second car, something the size of the 1 Series makes perfect sense. It's a shame they don't bring the hatchbacks to the US.
Yes, I agree, in fact, we had a conversation about this (wife) and we decided that BMW is one company that should look at their previous designs and maybe do a modernized version. Unlike the following who should NOT bring back old designs:

Dodge (challenger/charger) ugly in the 60/70s, still ugly

Ford (mustang) ibid

Chevy (camero), sorry, ugly as $hit ...

We decided to look for an E9 and maybe start either a restoration project or find one 90%+ restored:

beden1 commented:
May 7, 2011, 11:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
We decided to look for an E9 and maybe start either a restoration project or find one 90%+ restored:

I used to think that way before too, until I had some time under my belt with an M3 and now my 335is. I really like this 335is and only wish I had gotten it with a MT. The car is a lot of fun to drive and it sounds great. Go test drive one and see what you think.

The old cars look interesting and all, but really can't hold a candle to how these cars handle and perform today. I finally put my desires for a classic car to rest when I went to another Barrett-Jackson auction in W. Palm Beach this year. The more I looked at them, the more they just look like old cars. Then, I realized that I'm just so happy with my 335is and ZO6, that I have completely lost interest in these older cars.
Rock36 commented:
May 7, 2011, 11:37 am

I agree, and I like the new cars too, but I don't mind the retro themes in a lot of cars. They are only considered retro, because along the way the cars in question deviated too much from their classical look.

We don't consider 911s or Corvettes "retro" eventhough they do look very similar to their 60s and 70s counter parts (especially 911s).

Cars like the Mustang or Camaro had huge visual changes from generation to generation so they get slapped with the increasingly negative retro label for going back and borrowing from their original look.

Take the BMW 2002 in the picture, it doesn't take a huge mental leap to see that it is related to the 3 series. But compare the look of a '68, '72, '75, '85, and '95 Mustang; if you didn't know any better (or could see the pony badges), you might not know they were all the same line of car.
thekurgan commented:
May 7, 2011, 12:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post

The old cars look interesting and all, but really can't hold a candle to how these cars handle and perform today. I finally put my desires for a classic car to rest when I went to another Barrett-Jackson auction in W. Palm Beach this year. The more I looked at them, the more they just look like old cars. Then, I realized that I'm just so happy with my 335is and ZO6, that I have completely lost interest in these older cars.
Without any doubt, totally agree. I think she's looking for something simplistic, after the troubles with the E90 335, and a car she can depend upon that also has some classic lines. Fuel economy, probably won't be as high though.
mujjuman commented:
May 7, 2011, 5:34 pm

In my humble opinion:

I think its an ///M. the reason why its not called an M1 is because of that older racecar. So they called it 1M Coupe lol.

Plus none of the NA I6's out there make close to the power and torque of a BMW or even aftermarket modded N54 twin turbo. Fitting a V8 in there, even the lightweight V8 from the M3 would be dumb in such a small car.
I tihnk the N54 is a great successor to the S54 in an M car
thekurgan commented:
May 7, 2011, 7:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mujjuman View Post
In my humble opinion:

I think its an ///M. the reason why its not called an M1 is because of that older racecar. So they called it 1M Coupe lol.

Plus none of the NA I6's out there make close to the power and torque of a BMW or even aftermarket modded N54 twin turbo. Fitting a V8 in there, even the lightweight V8 from the M3 would be dumb in such a small car.
I tihnk the N54 is a great successor to the S54 in an M car
The N54 is really all there is, actually, but I think many of us expected a homologated version (albeit of normal aspiration of the N52.
mujjuman commented:
May 8, 2011, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
The N54 is really all there is, actually, but I think many of us expected a homologated version (albeit of normal aspiration of the N52.
I expected an NA I6 or a V8 too actually haha