2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.
Would anyone seriously cross shop this against a F30?
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows...#ixzz1iuFAEVF2
Quote:
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2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.  Development of the new 2013 Cadillac ATS was considered such a priority, it was one of the few programs that was not stopped during GM's bankruptcy. Why? Because the ATS is GM's entree into the largest luxury vehicle segment in the world, a segment basically created by BMW's 3 Series. This is the car that will make Cadillac a global luxury brand. The new ATS faithfully follows the segment-defining BMW's formula. In fact, chief engineer Dave Masch would probably argue his baby Caddy follows it even more faithfully than BMW. The dynamic benchmark for the ATS was the E46 3 Series, the car many enthusiasts still regard as best of the breed. Masch's team believes BMW moved away from the driver-focused chassis tune of the E46 with the current 3 Series -- the E90 -- and expects that trend will continue with the next-gen 3 Series due later this year. They see an opportunity for Cadillac. 2013 Cadillac ATS Rear Three Quarters Click to view Gallery The ATS is virtually all-new from the tires up. About the only parts that could be considered carryover are the revised 3.6-liter DI V-6 and the 6L45E six-speed automatic transmission. It rolls on GM's new lightweight Alpha architecture - the base ATS weighs just over 3300 pounds -- and the chassis has been tuned to deliver razor-sharp steering, precise handling, and buttoned-down ride. The car has been optimized around 17- and 18-inch wheels to keep weight down and improve agility. The first pre-production cars rolled down the line at the Lansing Grand River Assembly plant in Michigan just before Christmas. The ATS will launch as a sedan only, but coupe, convertible and wagon versions will be rolled out over the next two to three years. There will also be V-series versions. No official word on powertrain for the ATS-V, but a twin-turbo version of the 3.6-liter V-6 looks likely, partly because of the tight underhood packaging, but also because rivals like BMW's next-gen M3 are moving to smaller forced induction powerplants. |
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January 8, 2012, 5:04 pm
First of all, the fact that its american, means i would not consider it. Second, only people that should be driving Cadillacs are those with white hair. imo
January 8, 2012, 5:16 pm
If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.
It is not just the BMW enthusiasts who are saying BMW is moving away from its heritage.
January 8, 2012, 5:37 pm
This looks like this is going to be good. BMW has been dealing with Audi and Merc for years, infinity has been targeting them recently, and now Cadillac is setting their sights on BMW?
The f30 looks like a fine car, but BMW might need to do some 're-heritage-ing' if it plans to remain the ultimate driving machine
January 8, 2012, 6:32 pm
The f30 looks like a fine car, but BMW might need to do some 're-heritage-ing' if it plans to remain the ultimate driving machine
January 8, 2012, 6:32 pm
I'll definitely give the turbo and V6 models a look. I've loved my BMWs but they've been... sorta unreliable. If Caddy can deliver 95% of the driving experience for the same or probably less money then that's awesome. Sadly at this point the 3 series still lacks real competitors but I hope this car changes that.
January 8, 2012, 6:32 pm
If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.
It is not just the BMW enthusiasts who are saying BMW is moving away from its heritage.
Seeing Cadillac in 2012 as an old man's car shows a lack of knowledge or a phenomenally closed mind. The CTS is a terrific car and we all know the V series cars are world class. I expect the ATS to be a serious player in this class. I had a 2006 CTS and despite a plasticky interior it was a terrific vehicle.
January 8, 2012, 6:35 pm
The f30 looks like a fine car, but BMW might need to do some 're-heritage-ing' if it plans to remain the ultimate driving machine
January 8, 2012, 6:38 pm
Cadillac is coming out with great enthusiast-minded products lately. CTS-V = that's no grandpa car folks. If the steering feel on this ATS is better than the F30, I'll consider it. (Besides, people might treat me nicer on the road and not give me this douche stereotype crap, LOL)
January 8, 2012, 6:45 pm
If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.
It is not just the BMW enthusiasts who are saying BMW is moving away from its heritage.
January 8, 2012, 6:50 pm
Good for Cadillac. They have gotten their act together in recent years with some great offerings. I looked seriously at both the CTS and SRX in recent years. Vast improvements in performance, reliability, fit/finish, and quality of interior materials. But I always walked off the lot impressed but not swayed. I still think they are a half-step behind BMW and others but their effort and the competition it brings tothe market is great for us all.
January 8, 2012, 6:58 pm
January 8, 2012, 7:19 pm
January 8, 2012, 7:44 pm
This is a very good thing. Competition will force BMW to stay on their toes. It would be great if another car manufacturer, be it Cadillac, Audi, Merc, or whoever, made a line as good as the E46. You know bmw would be embarrassed if they succeeded, and you know we'd all be getting a baby M3 as the next 3 series if that happened. We all should be proud of Cadillac for setting their goals on making a great drivers car.
January 8, 2012, 7:51 pm
Every manufactures goal is the 3series....i have been reading about car company "x" taking aim at the 3 sereis for 15 years now. Fact is none of them can offer the driving experience the 3 series can.
January 8, 2012, 8:03 pm
Marketing, and actual attempt, is a very different thing. Audi has been very successful in what they've been doing..but what they've been doing is not really trying to compete head on with the 3-series. Same goes for Merc.
January 8, 2012, 8:39 pm
Cadillac is also gearing up its brand cache, with new high end designed showrooms.
January 8, 2012, 8:57 pm
It seems the only company that can finally foil the 3-series is BMW itself, if it chooses to ruin it.
January 8, 2012, 9:01 pm
It is not just Caddy but GM in general has done some good things lately.
Their new Cruze Eco is easily the most fuel economical petrol-only car, and the most fun to drive in its class too.
GM definitely has the engineering capability, the only thing they need is the will. Now they had sorted out the financial issues maybe they will finally have a real focus.
Competition is good, but meaningful competition is better.
January 8, 2012, 9:12 pm
Though not my cup of tea, I think that car as well as others will be seriously worthy adversaries for the 3-series. I think manufacturers are getting tired of getting their teeth kicked in by the 3-series. This only makes BMW step up their game apparently. Thank god.
January 8, 2012, 9:19 pm
..GM definitely has the engineering capability, the only thing they need is the will. Now they had sorted out the financial issues maybe they will finally have a real focus.
Competition is good, but meaningful competition is better.
January 8, 2012, 9:41 pm
I have to give Cadillac some props for building this car. They definitely have their act together. Look at them versus the quagmire that is Lincoln. But seriously, unless pricing is at a substantial discount, why would anyone considering a 3 series take a gamble on a new GM model? Infiniti G, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class, Volvo S60,Lexus IS... the segment is crowded with mature proven models and none of the aforementioned have been able to knock BMW 3 series off it's gilded pedestal. If I was looking to save a few bucks and still get a great car a G37 would be up there, but a Cadillac ATS? I guess since so many people lease now a days, if the lease pricing is aggressive this thing may rent well.
January 8, 2012, 10:00 pm
On the other hand we have Buick already making their compact sport sedan's price at the level of Toyota and Honda.
The lease programs for the CTSs were very aggressive as well, at the level of the 3 series, but the CTS is in the same category as the 5.
January 8, 2012, 10:36 pm
I understand that crystal red is a classical Cadillac color, but I also do not think it is a coincidence that they chose this color to market initial press of the vehicle. BMW has chosen melbourne red as its marketing color and so Cadillac went right after them.
It sure is a very nice car, and the interior has been vastly improved over the CTS (imo). If I hadn't been driving a Cadillac for 6 years now, I would definitely be considering this vehicle. If pricing is competitive, BMW will have their hands full as this car has what some would perceive a better engine and more refined interior. The "lines" may very well come to bite BMW NA in the ass if Cadillac offers more flexibility in ordering.
January 8, 2012, 11:01 pm
Other than the interior, 50/50 weight, I think the ATS will have an edge on the suspension.
January 8, 2012, 11:13 pm
Do they offer Detroit delivery?
January 8, 2012, 11:40 pm
January 8, 2012, 11:50 pm
January 9, 2012, 12:26 am
Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90.
January 9, 2012, 7:44 am
If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.
It is not just the BMW enthusiasts who are saying BMW is moving away from its heritage.
No thanks.
January 9, 2012, 8:08 am
January 9, 2012, 8:38 am
Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90.
January 9, 2012, 8:46 am
No thanks.
As a matter of comparison, BMW sold 1,227 examples of the 7-Series in November 2011 and 803 in November 2010. YTD sales were 10,080 in 2011 and 11,229 in 2010.
Impressive results given that the Equus is a brand-new model, and, well, it's a $55k Hyundai and so it won't attract very many status seekers, if any at all!
January 9, 2012, 9:10 am
Reporting from the Detroit Auto Show I am sad to report that in my opinion the ATS in person is disappointing. It doesn't stand out, the styling is surprisingly un-edgy in person, the door handles feel cheap and the interior is poorly implemented. I was more excited about this car on paper, in person for me it isn't a BMW killer. Yes it will take sales away from the 3 for some buyer, but it's not on par with Audi and BMW for build quality, styling or interior.
Tim
January 9, 2012, 9:12 am
Tim
January 9, 2012, 9:12 am
Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90.
January 9, 2012, 9:16 am
January 9, 2012, 9:59 am
For my part I'll definitely give it a look when it comes time to shop again. I keep coming back to BMW precisely because nothing gives me the same driving experience as a well built and tuned Bavarian motor car... but that doesn't meant that I'm sold on the brand.
I think that Cadillac are actually doing it right. The problem I've seen with many manufacturers is that they always target the CURRENT 3-series for their competitive products (witness Audi, Infiniti et al). While the E9x is a damned fine car, I've always felt that it was softer, more mature and "older" than the E46. I loved my E46 and though I liked the E9x I never loved it. That's why I went with an E82 (1'er) in the end; it was far closer to the E46 than the E9x ever managed, though it has gobs more power and technology my poor E46 could only dream of. I hang around this forum because I'm watching the F3x carefully for my next car, and although I'm reserving judgment until I've had a chance to drive one (or more) I must say that so far the reports I'm reading make it sound like BMW have continued on the same trajectory they started with the E9x. That disappoints me because I had hoped the F3x was a more "back to the heritage" sort of car. Again though I'm making no assumptions until I have actually put a few miles on one.
The fact that Cadillac are looking at the E46 for inspiration is in itself interesting. The E46 is still intensely well regarded by auto enthusiasts even outside BMW enthusiasts. The E9x though is seen as a great car though a little "lost" in its connection to BMW traditions. Sure, the E46 had its share of problems (like the self-detonating cooling system) but the driving experience was what made it, and kept it at the forefront. Quite apart from everything else, BMW made far too many compromises with the suspension in order to switch to run-flats... compromises that took 5 years to tune to what we finally ended up with in the last couple of years of the E9x. That gave early E9x's a "busy" feeling on the highways that was tiring over long drives and resulted in a certain amount of understeer that is "un-BMW-like". Sure you could replace the RFT's but then you end up with a car with far softer suspension than it needs and it (in my opinion) feels worse. Later E9x's fixed a lot of these sins, but there's still a certain softness to the suspension even in the last E9x's that doesn't go away until you upgrade yourself to the M3... which has no RFT's and far better suspension.
I am glad to see someone looking at what driving enthusiasts want and trying to fill that niche. I am also glad to see Cadillac doing it; they weren't always the "codger-mobile" manufacturer. There was a time they were respected for building luxury sports sedans that beat the hell out of everything else out there... though this was long before I was born and well before BMW unleashed the 2002 on the world.
As an aside though, I am holding out hope for the F3x. When I was in Germany I was driving a new F10 5'er and I was heartily impressed with that car. While it was still a far bigger car than I wanted, it managed somehow to feel smaller than my E60 when it counted... while managing to feel like a large and comfortable chariot when I needed it to be. Of course, there were aspects I didn't like; it took the E60 idea of using technology instead of engineering to overcome chassis "sins" to a whole new level and so there were times that driving it felt more like a video game than actually driving a car. But it was still far better than I expected it to be when I first heard I'd be getting that as a loaner.
If nothing else, actual good competition will maybe push F3x mid-cycle refresh to be a far better car. Not to say it won't be good out of the gate... but higher stakes in this game can't hurt the consumer.
January 9, 2012, 9:59 am
As a matter of comparison, BMW sold 1,227 examples of the 7-Series in November 2011 and 803 in November 2010. YTD sales were 10,080 in 2011 and 11,229 in 2010.
Impressive results given that the Equus is a brand-new model, and, well, it's a $55k Hyundai and so it won't attract very many status seekers, if any at all!
January 9, 2012, 10:28 am
The difference here is, BMW 3ers are its base model, they must rely on them to meet CAFE standards. Caddy does not.
January 9, 2012, 10:40 am
January 9, 2012, 11:21 am
Having said that, I don't expect the ATS having as smooth an engine as the F30, but then we are comparing the turbo 4 bangers, smoothness is not their strong point. Which is why IMO intake and exhaust tuning would make a difference.
We know the new 328i will have little sound tuning to speak of. I am curious to see how Caddy address this issue.
BTW, the Hyundai Genesis 2.0T coupe has very nice exhaust sound.
January 9, 2012, 11:27 am
I don't mind the car and I'd super tempted that a diesel will be offered. Something BMW hasn't confirmed. I am seriously considering an F30 in a couple years, but this will be interesting.
My only issues are that only rednecks drive Cadillacs and my local Cadillac dealer is apart of a sleazy Chevy dealer. I refuse to go and get my luxury car serviced by the same people that bring Aveos. I'm sorry. I'm not sold yet. So there's a lot of tech, but will it work? Ford pushed the whole MyTouch system and it turned out to be a POS. I doubt GM could one-up them. I'll give Cadillac another generation before I seriously put my money down
January 9, 2012, 11:30 am
Tim
January 9, 2012, 1:27 pm
January 9, 2012, 1:31 pm
Im definatelly getting a cadi im tired of getting rip off at the bmw stealership..bmw sucks
January 9, 2012, 1:38 pm
It is not luxury of course, but quite upscale, with the right door shut sound too.
January 9, 2012, 2:51 pm
I think that Cadillac are actually doing it right. The problem I've seen with many manufacturers is that they always target the CURRENT 3-series for their competitive products (witness Audi, Infiniti et al). While the E9x is a damned fine car, I've always felt that it was softer, more mature and "older" than the E46. I loved my E46 and though I liked the E9x I never loved it. That's why I went with an E82 (1'er) in the end; it was far closer to the E46 than the E9x ever managed, though it has gobs more power and technology my poor E46 could only dream of. I hang around this forum because I'm watching the F3x carefully for my next car, and although I'm reserving judgment until I've had a chance to drive one (or more) I must say that so far the reports I'm reading make it sound like BMW have continued on the same trajectory they started with the E9x. That disappoints me because I had hoped the F3x was a more "back to the heritage" sort of car. Again though I'm making no assumptions until I have actually put a few miles on one.
The fact that Cadillac are looking at the E46 for inspiration is in itself interesting. The E46 is still intensely well regarded by auto enthusiasts even outside BMW enthusiasts. The E9x though is seen as a great car though a little "lost" in its connection to BMW traditions. Sure, the E46 had its share of problems (like the self-detonating cooling system) but the driving experience was what made it, and kept it at the forefront. Quite apart from everything else, BMW made far too many compromises with the suspension in order to switch to run-flats... compromises that took 5 years to tune to what we finally ended up with in the last couple of years of the E9x. That gave early E9x's a "busy" feeling on the highways that was tiring over long drives and resulted in a certain amount of understeer that is "un-BMW-like". Sure you could replace the RFT's but then you end up with a car with far softer suspension than it needs and it (in my opinion) feels worse. Later E9x's fixed a lot of these sins, but there's still a certain softness to the suspension even in the last E9x's that doesn't go away until you upgrade yourself to the M3... which has no RFT's and far better suspension.
I am glad to see someone looking at what driving enthusiasts want and trying to fill that niche. I am also glad to see Cadillac doing it; they weren't always the "codger-mobile" manufacturer. There was a time they were respected for building luxury sports sedans that beat the hell out of everything else out there... though this was long before I was born and well before BMW unleashed the 2002 on the world.
As an aside though, I am holding out hope for the F3x. When I was in Germany I was driving a new F10 5'er and I was heartily impressed with that car. While it was still a far bigger car than I wanted, it managed somehow to feel smaller than my E60 when it counted... while managing to feel like a large and comfortable chariot when I needed it to be. Of course, there were aspects I didn't like; it took the E60 idea of using technology instead of engineering to overcome chassis "sins" to a whole new level and so there were times that driving it felt more like a video game than actually driving a car. But it was still far better than I expected it to be when I first heard I'd be getting that as a loaner.
If nothing else, actual good competition will maybe push F3x mid-cycle refresh to be a far better car. Not to say it won't be good out of the gate... but higher stakes in this game can't hurt the consumer.
January 9, 2012, 2:53 pm
It is not luxury of course, but quite upscale, with the right door shut sound too.
January 9, 2012, 3:22 pm
Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90.
January 9, 2012, 3:50 pm
VW's DSG is still the best in the biz
January 9, 2012, 4:03 pm
After I took it home, started to read the reviews, and they all talked about the same three strong points. So I was happy they felt the same.
On the other hand, so far all the good reviews about the F30 have not convinced me, and I am still unhappy with the loss of the N/A I6 and the signature steering feel.
Maybe once I have a chance to sit in one and drive it, I would agree with the reviews again.
January 9, 2012, 4:11 pm
After I took it home, started to read the reviews, and they all talked about the same three strong points. So I was happy they felt the same.
On the other hand, so far all the good reviews about the F30 have not convinced me, and I am still unhappy with the loss of the N/A I6 and the signature steering feel.
Maybe once I have a chance to sit in one and drive it, I would agree with the reviews again.
January 9, 2012, 4:15 pm
January 9, 2012, 4:30 pm
Even if I drove an ATS and absolutely loved the car, the dealer setup here would really make me hesitant to buy.
January 9, 2012, 4:36 pm
The ATS or ATS-V would have to be more raw or hardcore than the 3 series for me to want it, cause if they're just trying to do luxury sport, BMW does that better.
The CTS-V has that sweet V8, I don't think I'd be as excited about a V with a V6. I think the Corvette V8 is pretty light, so maybe they can use it.
January 9, 2012, 7:30 pm
VW's DSG is still the best in the biz
January 9, 2012, 7:49 pm
Compared the VW DSG box in the GTI/A3/TT, Audi DSG in the S4, the VAG units are superior
January 9, 2012, 8:46 pm
Hey Pix, did the brand manager say anything about the pricing for the m-sport?
January 9, 2012, 11:09 pm
January 10, 2012, 5:13 am
Still driving mine.
January 10, 2012, 11:18 am
I had the luxury of attending the CTS-V gen 2 launch event at Monticello Motorsports Park in 2008, right before the crash and the bankruptcy. No expense was spared. I still have the monogrammed jacket. Of course there was no charge. I'd seen Lexus charge as much as $300 for a similar event.
I spent most of the day driving regular CTS models, which I actually liked a lot. I'd like them better if they were at a discount to BMW/Audi/MB. The only serious knock I had was the interior and ergonomics, but I felt they got the driving dynamics right. The V6 I felt was more brutish than BMW's silky inline six, but with the 320i coming to the US market that advantage is gone at the sub-$50k price point. The manual shifter in the CTS was mounted laughably far back from the driver, as if they just poked the new tranny in where the auto used to go. It was slightly better in the CTS-V.
If the US had 100% import taxes, I'd drive a CTS.
Look at how high and close to the wheel Porsche is putting the shift knob in the 991:
January 10, 2012, 12:25 pm
Has anyone here ever even seen a Cadilac ATS let alone driven one?
As for the "badge" argument. Any company that is depending on their "image" to sell their product and does not consistantly deliver a quality product will not retain their "image" for long. It happened to Cadillac ("The Mark of Excellence") and it could easily happen to the ultimate driving machine. I would not spend my money on any car that I perceived to be an inferior product regardless of what its image or heritage is (or was). As they say in the music business "you are only as good as your last hit record". Athough I think it is unlikely that Cadillacs first attempt will beat BMW at its own game I will reserve my opinion until I have driven both an ATS and an F30.
Let's face it with the mentality of some of the people here it does not matter how the ATS turns out to be they will be still claim that it can not possibly be as good as a BMW.
CA
January 10, 2012, 1:06 pm
CA
January 10, 2012, 2:01 pm
CA
January 10, 2012, 2:41 pm
Here are a few pictures from the Detroit Auto Show of the ATS
Generally I would say the ATS lacks some of the aggressiveness that the CTS has and it honestly felt a little cheap to me. As we all know, it really comes down to how the car drives but the car was a let down to me from reading about it vs. seeing it in person. The interior I just thought was awful....
There are a ton more pictures of all things non-BMW from the show here:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/bmw-photos...-Show-Non-BMW/
January 10, 2012, 2:51 pm
Things are changing a lot....the competition to me is unreal, with the Koreans bringing out cars like the Hyundai Elantra, Sonata, Kia Optima, etc.
The new Ford Fusion looks like an Aston Martin...
And it seems like cycles are turning faster...
I predict BMW is really going to start getting squeezed, and here's why...BMW is the last, decent sized truly independent automaker.
I think they are going to eventually succumb to cost cutting measures like we have already seen in the current 3 series..and now with the introduction of lines, it reduces their assembly cost (and reduces the customers' choice).
Each year it seems like competitors get closer and closer, and the Americans are producing some amazing vehicles compare to what they were making just 10 years ago.
They are stylish, reliable, and loaded with technology and features. But most of all, they are almost ALWAYS significantly cheaper, along with the Japanese like Acura and Infiniti.
Now Lexus is taking aim at producing sporty cars, and don't think they won't be able to do it..they might miss on their first attempt, but they are capable just like BMW is.
I just don't see how BMW is going to be able to continue producing the 3 series at a competitive price with their labor, costs and poor European economy....unless they outsource production to US/China.
The ultimate question is....if the Cadillacs, Infiniti's etc of the world produce a car that is 8/10ths the performance, significantly less expensive, and more reliable (which they are), is driving a BMW still a good value proposition?
I'm not so sure any longer.
January 10, 2012, 2:52 pm
Honestly, I'm actually happy that Cadillac is making this vehicle. If the interior fit and finish are up to world class levels and the driving dynamics are similar to the E46, then I'd say that this is the car that BMW enthusiasts were hoping that BMW would build. I'll say that alot of people would consider this as an excellent choice for US entry level luxury cars. I'd suspect to really move units, the price would have to be 2-3k less than the comparable 3 series with similar if not better levels of standard equipment. The tell-tale sign would be if the car drives like the E46/or a more refined E46 then Caddy will have a winner. I'm a BMW enthusiast but I am mindful of my wallet and as the 3 series is starting to climb up there in price, this seems to be an excellent alternative.
January 10, 2012, 3:01 pm
I'm not so sure any longer.
For example, I sat in one of the Hyudai's at the mall and just couldn't stand the strong chemical smell of the interior. Sure that may wear off with time, but to me it speaks volumes about the quality of the materials used to build the car.
January 10, 2012, 5:02 pm
January 10, 2012, 5:51 pm
One thing I know for sure, is that this is a great time to be a car guy. I really can't remember a time when so many car companies are putting out some really nice designs and the choices in body sizes,shapes,powertrains,propulsion systems, etc have been so vast. There is such a wide mix of cars out there that we as consumers should be really happy. No too long ago your choice in this segment was 3 series or 3 series. Now we have previous joke car companies like Hyundai and Cadillac building RWD driver focused cars. If this pushes BMW to not rest on their laurels, ultimately we as BMW brand consumers win.
January 10, 2012, 8:39 pm
January 10, 2012, 8:43 pm
The new Ford Fusion looks like an Aston Martin...
And it seems like cycles are turning faster...
I predict BMW is really going to start getting squeezed, and here's why...BMW is the last, decent sized truly independent automaker.
I think they are going to eventually succumb to cost cutting measures like we have already seen in the current 3 series..and now with the introduction of lines, it reduces their assembly cost (and reduces the customers' choice).
Each year it seems like competitors get closer and closer, and the Americans are producing some amazing vehicles compare to what they were making just 10 years ago.
They are stylish, reliable, and loaded with technology and features. But most of all, they are almost ALWAYS significantly cheaper, along with the Japanese like Acura and Infiniti.
Now Lexus is taking aim at producing sporty cars, and don't think they won't be able to do it..they might miss on their first attempt, but they are capable just like BMW is.
I just don't see how BMW is going to be able to continue producing the 3 series at a competitive price with their labor, costs and poor European economy....unless they outsource production to US/China.
The ultimate question is....if the Cadillacs, Infiniti's etc of the world produce a car that is 8/10ths the performance, significantly less expensive, and more reliable (which they are), is driving a BMW still a good value proposition?
I'm not so sure any longer.
So far the G37 is a terrific car for the money but in every review is found to be lacking in refinement vs the 3 series. Also, it gets terrible fuel economy which is a negative in the era of $3.50 US gas.
January 10, 2012, 8:50 pm
The A4 is about the same price, but goes after a slightly different buyer
January 10, 2012, 8:51 pm
Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.
January 10, 2012, 8:58 pm
If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.
I am rather anti GM but depending on the cost I'd perhaps still consider an ATS. I know people who definitely would cross shop the two. Not like it is cross shopping a BMW with a Kia, Caddy has gone a long way in recent years.
January 10, 2012, 9:14 pm
Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.
January 10, 2012, 9:25 pm
Still driving mine.
Still I loved the sound of it when I started it in the morning, loved it at the track and the day I took delivery of my e90 330i in Munich I knew I had made a serious mistake giving up my e46 ZHP. Live and learn. You don't know how great you have it...
January 10, 2012, 9:55 pm
Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.
January 10, 2012, 10:19 pm
Of course Mustang being a coupe is an issue for me and many of you who have family needs. But let's be honest, I almost considered getting a 335is, when the local dealer was trying to unload it at a huge discount. But it was my head overruled my heart.
Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.
I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.
January 10, 2012, 10:33 pm
Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.
I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.
January 10, 2012, 10:43 pm
Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.
I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.
FWIW, my mom always (and still) has sports cars. I have no desire to have a sports car with a kid in a car seat.
January 10, 2012, 11:00 pm
You and yur "older" brother sat in the back jump seat of a 911, until you were how old, seniors in high scholl, lol
January 10, 2012, 11:11 pm
You and yur "older" brother sat in the back jump seat of a 911, until you were how old, seniors in high scholl, lol
But outside all of that, my point was that we sure seemed to manage just fine in coupes and I really am a firm believe that people with a "young child" would not have issues in any of them. I happen to know a couple where the wife drives a fairly new 911 and their toddlers fit in the back of it without issues. By the time those toddlers outgrow that 911, it will be time to sell the car by most peoples standards for length of car ownership anyway. I can even remember a few times being in my old Saleen or old 928 with my wife, step son and daughter and things were fine.
January 10, 2012, 11:11 pm
People who think a Cayenne is a sensible alternative, or a nostalgic fix of the 911 experience, obviously never cared or understood what is this thing called driving dynamics.
I am not blaming your wife at all, I cross-shopped a Cayenne as well when I was shopping for a crossover for my wife. She insisted I checked out the Cayenne.
While speaking to the salesman, it became apparent my wife was hardly alone. Many guys buy Cayennes for their wives so the guys can justify their own expensive toys.
You and I are clearly not one of them. In fact after I test drove the Cayenne, I failed to understand what was the big deal. It was still a crossover. Do people really believe they are driving a Porsche sport car when they are driving a Cayenne?
Luckily the payment on that Cayenne lease would have been nearly $1,400 a month, it wasn't difficult to change her mind and go for the MB SUV.
But I would have seen no issue getting a Porsche Cayman if the time comes.
Back to the topic. There are sports cars that are so intoxicating we will justify it for family purpose. But in the entry level luxury SPORTY car category, there is no reason to favor a coupe when the sedan is equally fun to drive and fits the family needs better.
January 10, 2012, 11:31 pm
But outside all of that, my point was that we sure seemed to manage just fine in coupes and I really am a firm believe that people with a "young child" would not have issues in any of them. I happen to know a couple where the wife drives a fairly new 911 and their toddlers fit in the back of it without issues. By the time those toddlers outgrow that 911, it will be time to sell the car by most peoples standards for length of car ownership anyway. I can even remember a few times being in my old Saleen or old 928 with my wife, step son and daughter and things were fine.
January 11, 2012, 6:58 am
January 11, 2012, 8:37 am
January 11, 2012, 8:39 am
Can I ask what your procedure is for putting your youngest in the back seat of a coupe?
January 11, 2012, 9:21 am
January 11, 2012, 9:28 am
The general idea behind the Cayenne was a Porsche for those "awkward years" or decades in life when one needs to carry kids and stuff around. I thought Porsche had lost its collective marbles when it introduced the car but as you know it's a huge chunk of Porsche sales and profits today. There isn't a lot of room in a 911 for more than a driver and a passenger, so it's not the best vehicle to take to Home Depot or Costco, no matter what Porsche says in its commercials!
January 11, 2012, 9:47 am
My 2 year old is in a front facing seat so I just lean down, rest my knee on the door seal and sit him in there. He is though old enough to crawl into the seat himself but I just sit him there since I need to mess with the seat's belts. It is harder to get him into a car seat within my extended cab truck than a coupe but I also keep the seat in the center of the truck instead of on one side. When it was rear facing seats I just hooked my arm in there and locked it into it's base. For the rear facing seats though it can greatly depend on seat selection. The second rear facing seat we got for our 335d sedan was a total PITA to get in/out of that car due to how high you had to lift it up to get it out of the base and how high the handle already was, that seat probably never would have worked in any coupe.
January 11, 2012, 9:53 am
The general idea behind the Cayenne was a Porsche for those "awkward years" or decades in life when one needs to carry kids and stuff around. I thought Porsche had lost its collective marbles when it introduced the car but as you know it's a huge chunk of Porsche sales and profits today. There isn't a lot of room in a 911 for more than a driver and a passenger, so it's not the best vehicle to take to Home Depot or Costco, no matter what Porsche says in its commercials!
CA
January 11, 2012, 10:02 am
Once my kid can do forward facing (age 2?), a Mustang will be back on the menu.
January 11, 2012, 10:24 am
In other parts of the world, a family of 8 can live on one bicycle. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
January 11, 2012, 10:24 am
Once my kid can do forward facing (age 2?), a Mustang will be back on the menu.
My daughter has commuted daily with me from the age of about 1-2 months to her current age of 10. She obviously no longer is in any sort of special seat. But in the beginning I was still driving my old 928 so I did use a rear facing seat in that car without issues. After the 928 was the fox body Saleen Mustang(which is smaller that today's Mustangs) but I do not recall using a rear facing seat with her in that car and instead the front facing. At the same time as all that my mom watched both my daughter and my nephew during the work days. My mom at the time was driving her second Bug so she would have one rear facing seat and one front facing seat there for awhile. Those Bugs though had a surprising amount of passenger room, I recall many times 3-4 adults piling into those to go to lunch or some other errand.
As far as a rear facing seat being bad enough in an Outback. I think that has a lot to do with seat selection but I never have been in an Outback specifically. What I did experience with my 2 year old when he was younger and in rear facing seats is the first seat was a piece of cake in the 335d sedan but the second replacement seat was a total PITA. I have a friend who put his niece and her rear facing seat in the back of his 4 door Focus and had plenty of room and was a piece of cake. That same rear facing seat from his Focus when put into his brothers Escape leaves very little room, front seat actually has to be pushed all the way up.
January 11, 2012, 10:54 am
On the Cadillac ATS: I love the idea that GM finally seems to be getting it's poop together and is beginning to build cars that people actually want to buy rather than mostly settling for. It is a good thing that Cadillac and Buick can openly say they're gunning for BMW and not get laughed out of the room.
Having said that, I absolutely loathe GM's interior design. It's a total deal breaker for me. Why does the interior of every GM product have to look like a rejected star trek prop? This isn't new, they've been doing it for more than a decade. And then they go a throw on a wood-trimed steering wheel. WTF? More is not More. When it comes to car styling more often than not less is more. BMW get's it. GM does not (yet).
January 11, 2012, 11:04 am
Interior lay out of the CTS was one of the big things that pushed me away as was material(suede in particular) selection. The CTS feels smaller than it really is and I think it is because of how they did the interior. Would imagine they will repeat many of the same mistakes on the STS. For those that care about headliners if you cross shop the Caddy cars then look up at that, looks like the same headliner you'd find in a truck but I personally never look at or touch my headliners so do not actually care how they are.
January 11, 2012, 11:09 am
January 11, 2012, 11:13 am
January 11, 2012, 1:10 pm
They seem to have gotten everything right and then ruined it with a V6. Maybe a competitor for Audi, MB, Infiniti, etc., but not BMW.
January 11, 2012, 1:22 pm
January 11, 2012, 2:01 pm
My daughter has commuted daily with me from the age of about 1-2 months to her current age of 10. She obviously no longer is in any sort of special seat. But in the beginning I was still driving my old 928 so I did use a rear facing seat in that car without issues. After the 928 was the fox body Saleen Mustang(which is smaller that today's Mustangs) but I do not recall using a rear facing seat with her in that car and instead the front facing. At the same time as all that my mom watched both my daughter and my nephew during the work days. My mom at the time was driving her second Bug so she would have one rear facing seat and one front facing seat there for awhile. Those Bugs though had a surprising amount of passenger room, I recall many times 3-4 adults piling into those to go to lunch or some other errand.
As far as a rear facing seat being bad enough in an Outback. I think that has a lot to do with seat selection but I never have been in an Outback specifically. What I did experience with my 2 year old when he was younger and in rear facing seats is the first seat was a piece of cake in the 335d sedan but the second replacement seat was a total PITA. I have a friend who put his niece and her rear facing seat in the back of his 4 door Focus and had plenty of room and was a piece of cake. That same rear facing seat from his Focus when put into his brothers Escape leaves very little room, front seat actually has to be pushed all the way up.
January 11, 2012, 3:07 pm
January 11, 2012, 3:11 pm
January 12, 2012, 12:49 am
Here is a shot of the interior of the 2012 Cruze Eco MT, similar to mine. I don't know one can really hate it for a $20K car.
January 12, 2012, 1:16 am
January 12, 2012, 1:56 am
January 12, 2012, 6:44 am
January 12, 2012, 8:08 am
I understand why a $20k chevy looks the way it does. It is appealing to a completely different demographic. What kills me is that GM has made these types of interiors a "signature" across all of its brands and almost all models.
It strikes me as a 1980s interior doing a bad impression of what it thinks a year 2000 interior should look like, but doing it in 2012.
January 12, 2012, 9:43 am
I understand why a $20k chevy looks the way it does. It is appealing to a completely different demographic. What kills me is that GM has made these types of interiors a "signature" across all of its brands and almost all models.
It strikes me as a 1980s interior doing a bad impression of what it thinks a year 2000 interior should look like, but doing it in 2012.
Other than this, I agree the interior style fits the targeted audience. The Chevy Sonic has the new bike look though.
What I don't necessarily agree is to make it more 2012 look, you just have to make it look different than anything before. To me as long as the dash board is not too busy, there is not plastics all over, and it is made for driving, not for playing, any design would be fine.
January 12, 2012, 9:45 am
I understand why a $20k chevy looks the way it does. It is appealing to a completely different demographic. What kills me is that GM has made these types of interiors a "signature" across all of its brands and almost all models.
It strikes me as a 1980s interior doing a bad impression of what it thinks a year 2000 interior should look like, but doing it in 2012.
January 12, 2012, 9:56 am
January 12, 2012, 10:09 am
Another "made for driving" is the hand brake, I commend BMW for keeping it in, but suspect for most F30 buyers it will be a major complaint: "What? Who still uses hand brake? This is so 70's, what did they think I am buying, a Chevy Cruze?"
January 12, 2012, 10:16 am
I do not think MBZ has ever been attempting to grab the market that wants "driving machines". If they turned their cars into that then they would not have their current customer base and be even more into compete mode with say the 3 v. C. I do realize they have been trying though to make the C more appealing to younger buyers although their most recent changes to the car almost seems like they gave up on that.
January 12, 2012, 11:11 am
Cadillac ATS vs. BMW 3 Series
We Breakdown the Sport Sedan Matchup to Watch in 2012
Let the magazine comparisons begin:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._bmw_3_series/
January 12, 2012, 11:57 am
The question is, how much will the FE3 in the ATS cost? On the paper Brembo and LSD alone sound incredible.
January 12, 2012, 1:06 pm
January 12, 2012, 2:43 pm
January 13, 2012, 7:35 am
Looks like the ATS is one of the 5 best new models at the show, at least by certain auto analysts.
January 13, 2012, 9:05 pm
If this is indeed true and the ATS manages to deliver E46-like handling and driving dynamics, a round of cold showers will be in order for the F30 engineering team and the dreaded electric steering. BMW's equation makes sense as the company is run by bean-counters. Build luxury cars that apply to a larger segment of the population and you'll sell more cars. The enthusiasts will have to move over to the M segment if they wish to stay with the marque. To quote Mark Miller, M stands for Motorsport and Money...the money that will be needed to maintain an M BMW. So the next logical move for us all? Drive a really old BMW, or an M model or to hell with BMWs!
January 13, 2012, 9:26 pm
Both the new 911 and the new Subaru BRZ supposedly have electric steering with great road feel, so BMW should be able to do it.
I believe that when I drive the cars though.
January 13, 2012, 9:50 pm
I believe that when I drive the cars though.
January 20, 2012, 10:01 am
Just watched a walkaround video, the back seats are tight, and the truck is small, very small.
This car better has some real fun driving dynamics. Yet no one has a chance to drive it so far?
January 20, 2012, 10:07 am
This car better has some real fun driving dynamics. Yet no one has a chance to drive it so far?
January 20, 2012, 11:19 am
January 20, 2012, 11:55 am
January 20, 2012, 12:23 pm
It is interesting no "first drive" events have happened. I thought such events should occur before, or at least at the same time of the official unveiling.
January 20, 2012, 4:48 pm
January 20, 2012, 4:50 pm
This car better has some real fun driving dynamics. Yet no one has a chance to drive it so far?
The back seat is smaller than the E90, and the trunk while deep isn't wide.
January 22, 2012, 2:06 am
Obviously we'll have to see how it drives, but I was pretty impressed with what I saw of the ATS at the 2012 NAIAS. In general I am not a fan of red, so I'd like to also see how the ATS looks in Silver with a dark leather interior and silver/brushed metal trim. I think the CTS looks best in silver and I appreciate that Cadillac styling is distinctive.
I too hope they are serious about using the e46 as their benchmark for handling. I really liked the e46 driving dynamics more than the e90. I like my e90 for a lot of reasons, but I have had too many issues related to tires and handling/ride. Half the time I can't tell if my suspension is screwed, my tires worn funny (again), or some combination of both. I really feel like us early e90 owners were basically beta testers for unproven suspension and tire tech. Its hard to believe considering the e90 was probably in development for years before it came out in 2005/6.
Also, I'm not sure why everyone is so down on the Cadillac interiors vs BMW. Late model CTS and SRX interiors are very nice. (The 2008 pre-refresh CTS was crap). IMHO BMW interiors have never been anything special. I appreciate the simplicity of my e90's layout, but the durability has been surprisingly bad. My seat bolsters have fallen apart twice now in 5 years. And although the "soft touch" material feels nicer than hard plastic, multiple panels have peeled and have been replaced.
MB and Audi beat BMW on interiors in almost all aspects. Go sit in a new A6 after any BMW. The BMW interior is pretty nice, but the A6 is on another level.
January 22, 2012, 2:11 pm
asus389: Definitely agree with all your points there. Though I never did own an E9x, I have plenty of friends who do. They've all had similar complaints and problems. I thought the driving dynamics of the E46 were far better as well, and the interior was a really nice place to spend time.
Of course, the interior is the part that would most put me off a car. It's the part I look at all the time. Now here, Audi still has the upper hand in my opinion. While the F30 interior is really nice and a definite step up from the E90, I still think it strikes me as a little "stark". I have to see it in person though. I never much appreciated the E9x interior because it was too "flat". My little 1'er though has an an interior that to all intents and purposes is a great evolution of the E46 interior. It really bears far more resemblance to that than the E9x.
I'll be interested to see the ATS interior in person too. If they have the "feel" of the cabin right then the details tend to just disappear. However, GM does have a bad habit of making the details "pop", which tends to make one feel the interior is vying for your attention (witness the Camaro of the last few years... YUCK!) and thus tends to pull you out of the "feel".
January 22, 2012, 3:35 pm
Don't know if you all noticed, the ATS interior is one of those "capacitive touch" center stacks like "MyFord Touch" is. I'm personally not a fan of it, I'd much rather had the buttons like the F30 has, which to me is also an improvement of the iDrive only type interior of my mom's E60.
It will be a pain to keep clean since the capacitive surface is a piano black type material.
January 23, 2012, 2:19 am
It will be a pain to keep clean since the capacitive surface is a piano black type material.
January 24, 2012, 9:43 pm
Was in an ATS today. CUE does have haptic feedback, but it's still not the same thing as an actual button.
Buttons are much more satisfying to press!
January 24, 2012, 9:57 pm
check out this article:some of the interior fitment is very,well, GM.
The ATS Lands a Few Punches; Gets Knocked Out
January 24, 2012, 10:16 pm
I'm going to say it isn't fair to judge the show car in regards to fit and finish.
The show car is an updated IVER, basically a car built by pre-production folks in Warren on a mock assembly line (about 6 to 9 months ago no less). It doesn't use any of the final parts (some parts in that car came off of pre-production tooling) they attempted to make it look like a production model (by ripping it apart and manually updating things) but if you really look you'll see those issues.
GM is REALLY bad about stuff like that. This is why when they put a car up on the stands they don't really let you get near it.
A GM car isn't fit and finish ready until about 3 months before they roll off the line for full production. You'll notice the Malibu Eco on the floor suffered the same issues.
January 24, 2012, 10:58 pm
Enough of these sissy girly-man soft cars, and why BMW thinks they have to all of a sudden follow MB, Audi & Lexus, is beyond me
January 25, 2012, 9:19 am
Lets keep crying before we even drive the car LMFAO
Very sad
and 16, why do you keep bringing this stuff up if you drove the car? All these posts you write make me think you never really did test drive the cars.
January 25, 2012, 10:25 am
If you really want a pure drivers car get an Evo or STI, probably not soft or luxurious at all.
January 25, 2012, 1:08 pm
Very sad
and 16, why do you keep bringing this stuff up if you drove the car? All these posts you write make me think you never really did test drive the cars.
And will the bling-bling loving "my wife will just love this pretty new girly interior" ...crowd has been longing for BMW to go the way of MB, AUDI & LEXUS...many of use enthusiasts "mourn" this direction by BMW
But YES, it could still be worse...AND will be the next time (redesign) if the trend continues.
Car still looks like funky crap compared to the E46 and E9X M3.
January 25, 2012, 1:33 pm
Guess I am NOT alone in my views...MANY others on M3post.com and other BMW forums feel the SAME...FUGLY F30 HOOD LINE ...craps up the whole car design...HUGE & unnecessary FAIL>>>Audi,MB & Porsche found a way to satisfy Euro pedestrian safety without a hideous line cutting across the hood & BMW roundel far too low on front because of it!
JoeyO
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"While I dislike the headlights-grille combo and the small size of the headlights, my biggest gripe with the new F30 design is the bold horizontal line on the front hood. Not only does it push the BMW logo too close to the grille, but it contrasts all the other lines on the car. It's hard for my eyes to ignore it. Sort of like a turd in a punch bowl :-)
1) I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's there because of European pedestrian impact laws, because Audi just redesigned their 2013 A4 front and it doesn't have a plastic hood portion. Also, the VW Jetta and Golf are fairly new designs and they do not have a plastic hood portion either. See Audi below.
2) Plus, even if it was mandatory by law, I feel there are much better ways to design better hood lines. For instance, Lamborghini does an excellent job in handling their front line. They make it look like it was intentially designed to blend with the rest of the vehicle. Notice how the line jogs around the Lambo logo. Lambo treats the line as an integral part of the car's design, unlike BMW which treats it like an afterthought. Lambo's hood line has a slight bend which matches the rest of the front end, unlike BMW which looks like they used a perfectly straight ruler.
IMO, another hood design which deals with the front line issue OK is the Volvo S40. With the Volvo, the hood lines match up with the other lines of the car nicely. Just my 2 cents.
By the way, if I had to pick the best front end design in the current BMW line-up I'd pick the X3. It's very traditional, clean, bold, and looks modern. :-)"
January 25, 2012, 9:14 pm
JoeyO
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Drives: silver car
Join Date: Jan 2012
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"While I dislike the headlights-grille combo and the small size of the headlights, my biggest gripe with the new F30 design is the bold horizontal line on the front hood. Not only does it push the BMW logo too close to the grille, but it contrasts all the other lines on the car. It's hard for my eyes to ignore it. Sort of like a turd in a punch bowl :-)
1) I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's there because of European pedestrian impact laws, because Audi just redesigned their 2013 A4 front and it doesn't have a plastic hood portion. Also, the VW Jetta and Golf are fairly new designs and they do not have a plastic hood portion either. See Audi below.
2) Plus, even if it was mandatory by law, I feel there are much better ways to design better hood lines. For instance, Lamborghini does an excellent job in handling their front line. They make it look like it was intentially designed to blend with the rest of the vehicle. Notice how the line jogs around the Lambo logo. Lambo treats the line as an integral part of the car's design, unlike BMW which treats it like an afterthought. Lambo's hood line has a slight bend which matches the rest of the front end, unlike BMW which looks like they used a perfectly straight ruler.
IMO, another hood design which deals with the front line issue OK is the Volvo S40. With the Volvo, the hood lines match up with the other lines of the car nicely. Just my 2 cents.
By the way, if I had to pick the best front end design in the current BMW line-up I'd pick the X3. It's very traditional, clean, bold, and looks modern. :-)"
January 26, 2012, 10:38 am
No tricks here and I have been called a "stud" but never a pony
February 3, 2012, 2:19 pm
Caddy's Super Bowl ATS ad squarely aimed at the 3:
http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...r-bowl-ad.html
February 8, 2012, 9:52 pm
can't wait to test drive one...magnetic ride control, limited slip differential, FE3 suspension with Brembo brakes....bring it on Caddy!
I love bimmers but a healthy competition will keep both marques on their toes and, ultimately, benefit all of us!
February 8, 2012, 11:00 pm
I love bimmers but a healthy competition will keep both marques on their toes and, ultimately, benefit all of us!
CA
February 9, 2012, 12:46 am
February 9, 2012, 8:54 pm
At least their Super Bowl ad received good feedback, stood out among the stupid bling bling car commercials:
http://wot.motortrend.com/record-bre...ed-166939.html
February 9, 2012, 9:50 pm
+1.
I'm pretty sure the kinks will be worked out by the second model year. Which is typical of GM because they REFUSE to wait 3-6 months to get it right the first time.
I'm serious in that it's good BMW doesn't say anything really about the next gen "whatever" until just before it goes on sale. That way if you have a 6 month delay no one really knows. GM comes out the gate 9-12 months before the car is actually on sale and starts talking about when it's coming out. In 9 months you can run into some serious dev problems that delay a program.
The "waiting" method is better. For example we've seen the F30 and have no timing even on the Wagon (let alone the Coupe) both of which we KNOW are coming!
February 10, 2012, 7:27 am
CA
February 10, 2012, 7:49 am
February 10, 2012, 11:11 am
My speculation is they will try to fine tune the ATS while evaluating the new F30 side by side, so the summer release may be a plus.
February 10, 2012, 2:00 pm
My speculation is they will try to fine tune the ATS while evaluating the new F30 side by side, so the summer release may be a plus.
I must admit that if BMW were to make a new E46 today essentially unchanged from back then, I would be all over that car. While I like the new tech and luxury, and I also like the rather more raw E30, the E46 was just the perfect balance between those two to me. The E9x was just a smidgen too soft for me, and I'm not encouraged that the F3x is going to be significantly improved over that. Still, going to see what it's like when I get to drive one before I make any snap judgments.
Same is true of this Caddy. I will drive it first and if it feels like an E46 did when it rolled off the showroom floor I'm going to have a tough time choosing between this and the F3x or F2x.
February 10, 2012, 8:13 pm
I must admit that if BMW were to make a new E46 today essentially unchanged from back then, I would be all over that car. While I like the new tech and luxury, and I also like the rather more raw E30, the E46 was just the perfect balance between those two to me. The E9x was just a smidgen too soft for me, and I'm not encouraged that the F3x is going to be significantly improved over that. Still, going to see what it's like when I get to drive one before I make any snap judgments.
Same is true of this Caddy. I will drive it first and if it feels like an E46 did when it rolled off the showroom floor I'm going to have a tough time choosing between this and the F3x or F2x.
Yep will definitely look.
And yes if BMW sold a brand new 2012 e46 ZHP for the same price as comparably equipped 2012 F30 335i, I'd take the e46. Without pause. A hypothetical 2012 e90 335i ZSP wouldn't really get my eye until the price gulf new-for-new was over 6-7k. Just wasn't a fun car compared to the e46. Didn't feel special.
So wish the e46 were still made... sigh.
February 11, 2012, 2:17 am
To the purists, Caddy needs to add an N/A I6 engine option if they are dead serious.
February 11, 2012, 7:52 am
And yes if BMW sold a brand new 2012 e46 ZHP for the same price as comparably equipped 2012 F30 335i, I'd take the e46. Without pause. A hypothetical 2012 e90 335i ZSP wouldn't really get my eye until the price gulf new-for-new was over 6-7k. Just wasn't a fun car compared to the e46. Didn't feel special.
So wish the e46 were still made... sigh.
February 11, 2012, 11:09 am
Too bad it won't happen for either of us though.
February 11, 2012, 11:13 am
Too bad it won't happen for either of us though.
February 11, 2012, 3:29 pm
I've tried the Cadillac before and I'll try it once again since it's been completely re-done. Curious to see where ATS is made and the warranty. If they can make a more reliable car and compete with performance I'm open to changing brands.
February 11, 2012, 3:54 pm
The whole "BMW out of warranty" thing scares me... the day I got my 545i I had a water leak that almost caused on overheat if I hadn't stopped and killed the engine in an hurry. I started getting terrified of the repair costs after I had done some research before buying the car and read all about the "valley pipe" problem and the associated costs... but thankfully it turned out to be an improperly installed water pump that had split the outlet pipe. When I started to get a squeak in the clutch pedal on that car that could also be potentially expensive (it was coming from inside the transmission) I decided that enough was enough and I was going to get out of the "un-warrantied BMW" thing.
YMMV... and my experiences are by no means indicative of BMW's quality but rather what BMW's go through with their owners I think... plus they're not the most reliable cars once you get up to triple digit mileage. Still, I have consistently come back to the marque as evidenced by my signature... there's just something about a BMW that is unique in the automotive world. At least so far
February 11, 2012, 7:35 pm
3 BMWs and all of them had major issues within warranty so out of warranty...well that reminds me of the thousands we sink into my wife's Audi for preventative maintenance and parts issues.
February 11, 2012, 8:54 pm
3 BMWs and all of them had major issues within warranty so out of warranty...well that reminds me of the thousands we sink into my wife's Audi for preventative maintenance and parts issues.
February 11, 2012, 10:29 pm
February 12, 2012, 8:39 pm
What do you guys think of the sound they are working on?
http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1432070720001
You can also listen to the ATS interior and exterior sound on the road.
February 12, 2012, 9:04 pm
http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1432070720001
You can also listen to the ATS interior and exterior sound on the road.
February 13, 2012, 9:01 am
While I like it, I can see how it may actually turn many people off too. Most people today, having to choose between performance or comfort, will pick the latter.
February 13, 2012, 9:05 am
While I like it, I can see how it may actually turn many people off too. Most people today, having to choose between performance or comfort, will pick the latter.
February 13, 2012, 11:00 am
February 16, 2012, 6:54 pm
Hopefully GM dots all the i's and crosses all the t's with this one. My 2005 CTS-V (POS-V) was a disaster.
February 16, 2012, 7:09 pm
Could be worse. The GTO has an under-designed rear (half-shafts, diff) and the whole suspension is crap! I mean stuff is fixable, but I know what you mean OEM's should get it right the first time.
February 17, 2012, 2:11 pm
Could be worse. The GTO has an under-designed rear (half-shafts, diff) and the whole suspension is crap! I mean stuff is fixable, but I know what you mean OEM's should get it right the first time.
February 17, 2012, 3:12 pm
And no, that wasn't my first bad BMW. I've had three with problems from the factory. Still fun.
February 17, 2012, 5:47 pm
True.
Even with all the problems I've had with my GTO I'd buy another one.
February 17, 2012, 8:19 pm
read somewhere they think the ATS-V will get the V8, not turbo V6. That would be pretty awesome.
February 17, 2012, 8:38 pm
February 18, 2012, 5:58 pm
February 18, 2012, 6:15 pm
I'd prefer the V8, but I have a bad feeling they will put in a Turbo 6.
February 18, 2012, 8:45 pm
I'd prefer the V8, but I have a bad feeling they will put in a Turbo 6.
March 16, 2012, 3:09 am
http://www.examiner.com/automotive-i...-sedans-review
The above link seems to provide some factory specs not seen before, most notable are 0-60 at 4.7s and 13.0s quarter mile for the 3.6L ATS, also a curb weight of 3,399 lbs. Don't know the source of the data yet.
March 16, 2012, 8:27 am
The above link seems to provide some factory specs not seen before, most notable are 0-60 at 4.7s and 13.0s quarter mile for the 3.6L ATS, also a curb weight of 3,399 lbs. Don't know the source of the data yet.
March 16, 2012, 11:05 am
March 16, 2012, 11:17 am
ill believe all this stuff when i see it...
weight, acceleration times, steering feel, price...when i see it...
looking forward to the first instrument test
March 16, 2012, 7:00 pm
March 16, 2012, 10:41 pm
March 16, 2012, 10:53 pm
March 24, 2012, 12:10 am
The 991 is the only car on the market with enviable weight. 3000 pounds and 350 HP. Plain Carrera.
April 20, 2012, 2:15 am
A bit more details leaked by GM, although I read more than one occasion the ATS will be delayed to fall release:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...ails.html#more
April 20, 2012, 11:51 am
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...ails.html#more
April 20, 2012, 12:12 pm
So, the Cadillac ATS is taking aim at the BMW 3 series. Someone please tell Cadillac to take a number and stand in the back of the line.
April 20, 2012, 12:57 pm
April 20, 2012, 1:34 pm
I saw the ATS at the New York Auto Show last week. It looks fantastic from the outside, but the inside is cheaply built. The whole center console reeks of plastic and cheapness and the backseat is tight (just as tight IMO as the tiny Lexus IS)
April 20, 2012, 1:40 pm
The ideology of buyers and the connotation of the Cadillac badge will hurt them and it is a stigma they have to deal with, but if GM is deciding turning over a new leaf and making a car for people who really want to drive the vehicle in a way that is engaging, then the ATS can probably have a chance.
I am worried that they will fall victim to one of the following:
1. the company will not be willing to allow the production costs to be as high as it will need to be to produce a vehicle that truly competes with the 3 series
2. the designers will be influenced so much by the traditional features of Cadillacs that the car will be more of a glorified Buick or American Lexus than the BMW competitor it claims to be.
3. the entire thing is a sham and it will just be another plasticky, noisy, overpriced, overglitzed car that can't go around corners and only sells to people whose sense of patriotism trumps value for money.
April 20, 2012, 1:42 pm
The ideology of buyers and the connotation of the Cadillac badge will hurt them and it is a stigma they have to deal with, but if GM is deciding turning over a new leaf and making a car for people who really want to drive the vehicle in a way that is engaging, then the ATS can probably have a chance.
I am worried that they will fall victim to one of the following:
1. the company will not be willing to allow the production costs to be as high as it will need to be to produce a vehicle that truly competes with the 3 series
2. the designers will be influenced so much by the traditional features of Cadillacs that the car will be more of a glorified Buick or American Lexus than the BMW competitor it claims to be.
3. the entire thing is a sham and it will just be another plasticky, noisy, overpriced, overglitzed car that can't go around corners and only sells to people whose sense of patriotism trumps value for money.
April 20, 2012, 1:46 pm
April 20, 2012, 1:46 pm
Just found this:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...e-details.html
But apparently someone else had already found it earlier and psoted it.
April 20, 2012, 1:51 pm
Repost. This is the story that started the day.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...e-details.html
As GM prepares to launch its Cadillac ATS this summer more information is beginning to leak out, including standard features and what trims will have an available manual transmission.
Starting with the engine lineup, we now have more accurate power figures. The 2.5-liter four-cylinder will produce 202 horsepower and 190 pounds-feet of torque; the turbo 2.0-liter four-cylinder will produce 272 hp and 260 pounds-feet of torque and the 3.6-liter V-6 will produce 321 hp and 274 pounds-feet of torque. Those figures are a bit higher than the estimates Cadillac gave us at the 2012 Detroit auto show.
All three engines can run on regular gas, though Cadillac recommends premium with the turbo. While the original Cadillac release stated that all-wheel drive would be an option for all engines, it turns out it won't be for the base 2.5-liter powertrain. All motors come standard with a six-speed automatic transmission, with a six-speed manual transmission optional on the turbo 2.0-liter four cylinder with rear-wheel drive only, according to GM. The 3.6-liter engine will be E85-compatible.
The 2013 Cadillac ATS will be available in Standard, Luxury, Performance and Premium trims. The 2.5-liter is only available on Standard and Luxury trims; the 2.0-liter turbo four is available in in all trim packages. The 3.6-liter V-6 is available in Luxury, Performance and Premium trims.
Standard, Luxury and Performance models come with a FE2 sport suspension setup, while Premium rear-wheel-drive models have an available FE3 sport suspension, performance cooling system, limited slip differential and magnetic ride control with real-time damping. Brembo-brand performance brakes are an option across the board.
Base ATS models come standard with 17-inch wheels, a leather-wrapped steering wheel and shifter, an air filtration system, Bluetooth streaming audio, ambient interior lighting, OnStar with a one-year Directions and Connections subscription, perimeter security system, halogen headlamps with flash-to-pass, push-button start and dual-zone automatic climate control.
The Luxury Package adds a chrome grille, front parking sensor, a passive keyless-entry system, split-folding rear seat, leather upholstery, Brembo brakes, 10-way power driver's seat, heated side mirrors with auto-dimming driver's side mirror, auto-dimming rearview mirror, backup camera, and a 8-inch center console touch-screen with Cadillac's CUE multimedia system.
The Performance Package brings high-intensity-discharge headlamps with articulating lenses, LED headlight accent lighting, performance bucket seats, steering-wheel-mounted paddle shifters (with an automatic transmission), 10-speaker Bose surround sound system, rain-sensing wipers, rear passenger side-impact airbags, rear parking sonar, forward collision alert system and a lane departure warning system.
Lastly, the Premium Package includes 18-inch alloy wheels, a color head-up display and a navigation system.
We'll have more information on the ATS, including pricing and gas mileage, closer to the model's on-sale date.
April 20, 2012, 2:33 pm
It looks like the ATS options packages are not much different than BMW's lines. If you want a LSD you have to get the Premium Trim package. Same for magnetic shocks and the FE3 suspension. It's unknown if items like HID's will be options on lower model cars.
However id the Performance model with the 2.0l turbo is affordable this could be a great choice for my next car if I can no longer budget for a 3 series.
April 20, 2012, 3:12 pm
However id the Performance model with the 2.0l turbo is affordable this could be a great choice for my next car if I can no longer budget for a 3 series.
A lot of the above negative comments were made by those who had not paid much attention to GM's latest models.
I was very skeptical until I was forced to drive a high mileage compact car for commute. The Chevy Cruze Eco MT turned out to be the best of the bunch, fun to drive, very tossable and the solid build quality feels like it is a much more expensive car than it is.
The CTS has also been a solid performer. But the ATS will face more difficult tests.
BTW, I was puzzled by the ATS' trims, the Premium trim has all the performance options, the Performance trim shares most options with the base model.
Here is a more complete trim/options link:
http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2013/cadillac/ats/features/
April 20, 2012, 5:08 pm
I don't care for the look of the ATS as it just looks too much like the CTS. I also fear that somehow GM will screw it up. I test drove the Buick Regal GS and it was a nice car with, at least for me, a major flaw. Every time I shifted into an even gear (pulling back) my elbow would bump into the center armrest. How do you design a car like that?
April 20, 2012, 6:22 pm
Have to say that specs, features and options all look pretty interesting. If the handling is close to bmw, two things would make me consider it:
2k or more savings over f30
more flexibility to configure the way I want as compared to current BMW lines.
April 21, 2012, 12:37 pm
I had an E46 as well and while I liked the E90, I never really connected with it in the way I did the E46. That's why I never actually bought one (though came within a squeak of having an E92 M3) and ended up in my wonderful little 135i. Honestly my 1'er is more like the E46 than anything BMW has built for years.
The truth is, the E46 was a fabulous car for its time, and even by today's standards I would put the E46 up against just about anything on the road. It struck that balance of performance, comfort, affordability (relatively) and practicality that few cars have managed since. The E90; while it was close, (in my opinion) it was also a smidge too heavy to be as sporty as the E46, too expensive to be attainable, and lost some practical value I felt the E46 had in that it was a cinch to work on and had a really usable interior. The E90 was more comfortable than the E46 (mostly, run-flats notwithstanding) but that's the only area in which it actually improved on it; in just about every other aspect it was a step backward.
I waffled for over a year on my choice of car and finally chose the 2012 1'er because it was to my eye a brand new E46. It drives a hell of a lot like it with the 2011+ suspension (the prior suspension wasn't great) but still manages to feel like a more modern car.
On-topic, if Cadillac want to target the E46 then I say power to them. I have said even earlier in this thread that if BMW sold a brand new E46 today, I would be putting my deposit down this afternoon. Currently the closest thing BMW sell to the E46 is still the 1'er, though I haven't actually driven an F30 yet (waiting for the coupe, personally) and if Cadillac can produce something that drives and feels like the E46 then I for one am going to find the comparison between the F30 and ATS VERY interesting.
April 21, 2012, 5:23 pm
On-topic, if Cadillac want to target the E46 then I say power to them. I have said even earlier in this thread that if BMW sold a brand new E46 today, I would be putting my deposit down this afternoon. Currently the closest thing BMW sell to the E46 is still the 1'er, though I haven't actually driven an F30 yet (waiting for the coupe, personally) and if Cadillac can produce something that drives and feels like the E46 then I for one am going to find the comparison between the F30 and ATS VERY interesting.
And no the F30 is nothing like an e46. Driven several. Not enjoyable.
April 21, 2012, 5:49 pm
And no the F30 is nothing like an e46. Driven several. Not enjoyable.
April 21, 2012, 7:30 pm
I wonder what it's 0-60 will be because the cts-v is 3.9, so wouldn't they want to keep it about a second slower so it doesn't hurt their cts-v sales?
April 21, 2012, 9:06 pm
April 21, 2012, 11:05 pm
Btw, had an almost new 335i as a loaner for a day, drove my usual routes. Other than the nice exhaust note, the extra power just does not cure my lust over the linear power delivery of the N/A I6.
I am afraid the ATS will not do it for me either.
April 21, 2012, 11:06 pm
i have an e90 328 and the lack of toruqe on it is pathetic. Yea its smooth but i dont feel like driving above 4000K all day
April 22, 2012, 1:20 am
April 22, 2012, 1:40 am
im not concerned about str8 line speed, its all about handling and feel for me.
April 22, 2012, 2:07 am
I agree handling and feel are very important, but a sub 5 0-60, will hurt bmw sales
April 22, 2012, 9:52 am
Btw, had an almost new 335i as a loaner for a day, drove my usual routes. Other than the nice exhaust note, the extra power just does not cure my lust over the linear power delivery of the N/A I6.
I am afraid the ATS will not do it for me either.
I saw the link and did research. I mistyped the torque numbers.
April 22, 2012, 9:54 am
April 22, 2012, 10:10 am
Lets hold on till the ATS actually comes out. Pre-production models often look nicer than what is sold to the public, especially performance wise. One of my friends at GM said that the interior in the production ATS was a little disappointing. He was also disappointed in the base engine and the fact that for now, the car will only be in sedan form. maybe they are doing this because they are unsure as to how it will be received. That should tell you something right there. We'll just have to wait and see.
April 22, 2012, 11:44 am
Unless GM is just blowing hot air, if they want to make a good entry, the ATS better perform well.
The new Regal GS actually performed very well in specific performance tests, but lacked in 0-60 time. But 0-60 is all most people care about. Buick also carries a lot of stigma. Cadillac has the same image issue, but it stands a much better chance to prove itself than Buick.
April 22, 2012, 12:42 pm
Unless GM is just blowing hot air, if they want to make a good entry, the ATS better perform well.
The new Regal GS actually performed very well in specific performance tests, but lacked in 0-60 time. But 0-60 is all most people care about. Buick also carries a lot of stigma. Cadillac has the same image issue, but it stands a much better chance to prove itself than Buick.
April 23, 2012, 3:18 am
I had an E46 as well and while I liked the E90, I never really connected with it in the way I did the E46. That's why I never actually bought one (though came within a squeak of having an E92 M3) and ended up in my wonderful little 135i. Honestly my 1'er is more like the E46 than anything BMW has built for years.
The truth is, the E46 was a fabulous car for its time, and even by today's standards I would put the E46 up against just about anything on the road. It struck that balance of performance, comfort, affordability (relatively) and practicality that few cars have managed since. The E90; while it was close, (in my opinion) it was also a smidge too heavy to be as sporty as the E46, too expensive to be attainable, and lost some practical value I felt the E46 had in that it was a cinch to work on and had a really usable interior. The E90 was more comfortable than the E46 (mostly, run-flats notwithstanding) but that's the only area in which it actually improved on it; in just about every other aspect it was a step backward.
That the E90 went way up in price is a myth. Equivalently equipped, an E90 and an E46 were on par when adjusted for inflation. Which is even more significant, because economic conditions were less favorable to BMWAG during the E90's production. side note - the same is true for the F30. And the technological improvements that were standard on the E90, without a higher real cost, that weren't even available on the E46 were considerable. The thing that made the E90 appear to have had a big price increase was that more options were made available that either weren't offered on the E46 or weren't even in existence.
Btw, had an almost new 335i as a loaner for a day, drove my usual routes. Other than the nice exhaust note, the extra power just does not cure my lust over the linear power delivery of the N/A I6.
I am afraid the ATS will not do it for me either.
Unless GM is just blowing hot air, if they want to make a good entry, the ATS better perform well.
The new Regal GS actually performed very well in specific performance tests, but lacked in 0-60 time. But 0-60 is all most people care about. Buick also carries a lot of stigma. Cadillac has the same image issue, but it stands a much better chance to prove itself than Buick.
May 9, 2012, 12:03 pm
http://i.autoblog.com/2012/05/07/gm-...ing-at-33-990/
While the mags only look at the list prices, it will be the real world cost, particularly the lease deals that will measure the cost of driving one of those entry level sporty cars.
May 9, 2012, 1:18 pm
While the mags only look at the list prices, it will be the real world cost, particularly the lease deals that will measure the cost of driving one of those entry level sporty cars.
May 9, 2012, 1:21 pm
While the mags only look at the list prices, it will be the real world cost, particularly the lease deals that will measure the cost of driving one of those entry level sporty cars.
The 270 hp version with the right options could be the sweet spot in the lineup. We'll see what the lease rates are like. If the 3 series price keeps escalating, the ATS may be a good choice once my lease ends at the end of next year. I think it will be a nice car.
May 9, 2012, 2:22 pm
The 270 hp version with the right options could be the sweet spot in the lineup. We'll see what the lease rates are like. If the 3 series price keeps escalating, the ATS may be a good choice once my lease ends at the end of next year. I think it will be a nice car.
Also Caddy sales has been doing so bad lately, they will have to be aggressive to bring the numbers up, and the ATS seems to be the only thing in their sleeves for now.
May 9, 2012, 2:44 pm
Looks like you can get the 6 cyl CTS for the price of the 4 cyl 3 series.
May 9, 2012, 4:03 pm
I would wait for final pricing to really gauge if GM is serious about undercutting BMW, Audi, Merc and others with their pricing.... Personally I will be very surprised if these wind up being much less than a new 3-series, especially if you factor resale and included maintenance into the picture... there's no question they will be cheaper, but how much cheaper remains to be seen.
These cars look interesting but I am not a big fan of the wedge front end shape. My wife and I stayed at a resort over the weekend that had two Cadillacs parked there for marketing purposes. One was some kind of sport wagon that had a $60,000 price tag. The other was a hybrid Escalade that stickered at $90,000 (and gets a whopping 20 mpg, yippie!!).... Considering that either one will be worth less than 50% after 3 years they seem like extremely bad value propositions to me.
May 9, 2012, 4:29 pm
May 9, 2012, 6:24 pm
May 9, 2012, 6:51 pm
Cadillac sales overall were up over 10% last year and expanding, even more for their high performance offerings.
May 9, 2012, 9:39 pm
That price for the highest end ATS just lost them the battle for we even found out if there was going to be one. Ridiculous. What the hell are Cadillac thinking? "Nobody takes us seriously, but we're going to take on BMW, so let's make our car, which everyone expects to suck, more expensive than BMW's"
May 9, 2012, 10:43 pm
Cadillac sales overall were up over 10% last year and expanding, even more for their high performance offerings.
May 9, 2012, 10:50 pm
May 9, 2012, 11:54 pm
So the pricing is out and it's not good:
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...lac-ats-33990/
The base model with the sad 2.5 4cylinder engine is 34k.
Turbo model is 36k
V6 model is 42k.
The turbo ATS model is priced the same as the 328i and the V6 model is a grand chepaer than the 335i for a bigger, heavier engine.
Caddy made a big blunder here. What is the advantage of the ATS if the pricing is the same? Yeah, maybe it will have leather standard so maybe 1-2k cheaper than equivalent 3 but really unless ATS starts at 4-5k cheaper, I can't see why one would opt for the Caddy.
May 10, 2012, 12:07 am
Prices don't surprise me. GM will be throwing large amounts of incentives at this car to move them, no doubt. Anything to undercut BMW
May 10, 2012, 12:08 am
May 10, 2012, 12:10 am
GM isn't stupid. They will be throwing even more money at the ATS to move them. Good example is the SRX. GM sells a crap ton of them (almost at Lexus RX levels) because the incentives are so good.
I do think it is overpriced though. Instead of throwing money on the hood, they should have just undercut BMW by a larger margin. Large trunk money hurts resale in the future.
May 10, 2012, 12:12 am
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...lac-ats-33990/
The base model with the sad 2.5 4cylinder engine is 34k.
Turbo model is 36k
V6 model is 42k.
The turbo ATS model is priced the same as the 328i and the V6 model is a grand chepaer than the 335i for a bigger, heavier engine.
Caddy made a big blunder here. What is the advantage of the ATS if the pricing is the same? Yeah, maybe it will have leather standard so maybe 1-2k cheaper than equivalent 3 but really unless ATS starts at 4-5k cheaper, I can't see why one would opt for the Caddy.
May 10, 2012, 9:13 am
GM isn't stupid. They will be throwing even more money at the ATS to move them. Good example is the SRX. GM sells a crap ton of them (almost at Lexus RX levels) because the incentives are so good.
I do think it is overpriced though. Instead of throwing money on the hood, they should have just undercut BMW by a larger margin. Large trunk money hurts resale in the future.
May 10, 2012, 9:20 am
The ATS pricing leads me to think that as you say it will be well equipped already which would undercut the 3 series. If so, this will be similar to G37 pricing as they are much better equipped than a comparably priced 3 series.
May 10, 2012, 9:59 am
The ATS pricing leads me to think that as you say it will be well equipped already which would undercut the 3 series. If so, this will be similar to G37 pricing as they are much better equipped than a comparably priced 3 series.
Can't believe you guys are placing so much emphasis on stated MSRP.
My prediction is this car will come out to be very cheap to lease, and they will move a lot of them.
Just like the Infiniti, they are a better value proposition than a BMW, not necessarily the better car of course, but...
May 10, 2012, 10:32 am
Can't believe you guys are placing so much emphasis on stated MSRP.
My prediction is this car will come out to be very cheap to lease, and they will move a lot of them.
Just like the Infiniti, they are a better value proposition than a BMW, not necessarily the better car of course, but...
May 10, 2012, 10:42 am
May 10, 2012, 10:50 am
May 10, 2012, 11:00 am
May 10, 2012, 11:09 am
Just like the Infiniti, they are a better value proposition than a BMW, not necessarily the better car of course, but...
Rumor had it the top ATS might come with an iPad loaded with CUE and other interactive materials, so I think it will be very high tech, my concern is the driving dynamics. In this area the 3 series is hard to beat.
Caddy does have the timing on their side, the new 3 has moved to the comfort side, driving dynamics might just be a little easier to match this time.
May 10, 2012, 11:18 am
May 10, 2012, 11:27 am
I agree. Base level BMWs are laughably equipped compared to even economy cars. Fact, A $24K MSRP Camry or Accord has more standard features than a base level BMW that costs $10,000 more.
I try not to think about it, because it's irritating.
May 10, 2012, 11:36 am
May 10, 2012, 11:47 am
I try not to think about it, because it's irritating.
But somehow I am glad I am back in my 328i.
May 10, 2012, 11:54 am
Ahh, good old BMW nickel and diming
I could rant on for hours about it
May 10, 2012, 11:55 am
The problem is that BMW is even more expensive than other options in the same luxury segment... let me put it this way... my day long test drive in a base 328i almost sunk my ability to convince her we should order one, because my wife HATED it. It didn't even have power seats or the ability to play music off of her iPhone (something that we take for granted now as even cheap rentals have these features).
But I digress.... obviously BMW can get away with it, primarily (I think) through inflated lease residuals.
May 10, 2012, 12:11 pm
Auto Spies Agent 001 (the founder of Auto Spies) owns an E90 and had nothing but effusive praise for the F30 328i during his test drive at the press junket in Spain, including how much better it was than the E90 that he owns and has I'm sure put many thousands of miles on.
May 10, 2012, 12:12 pm
May 10, 2012, 12:20 pm
Auto Spies Agent 001 (the founder of Auto Spies) owns an E90 and had nothing but effusive praise for the 328i during his test drive at the press junket in Spain, including how much better it was than the E90 that he owns and has I'm sure put many thousands of miles on.
" This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i's virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if you're put off by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there. "
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-6
"What Needs Work:
Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor"
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...and-video.html
May 10, 2012, 12:28 pm
I'm not going to argue that with a switch from hydraulic to electric steering that the steering feel of the E90 is probably better than the F30. However, even if the steering feel is not as good in sporty driving, that's not looking at the entire package.... the overall verdict is that all around the F30 is the better automobile.... despite what some of the E90 faithful believe (hell, up until the F30 came out the E46 crowd were still crowing about the E90 being inferior to the E46 in most ways).
If steering feel is your #1 priority in an automobile and is more important than engine performance, safety, fuel economy, transmission (8 speed AT), etc, then sure, get an E90 instead.
May 10, 2012, 12:28 pm
Auto Spies Agent 001 (the founder of Auto Spies) owns an E90 and had nothing but effusive praise for the 328i during his test drive at the press junket in Spain, including how much better it was than the E90 that he owns and has I'm sure put many thousands of miles on.
When the car is not pushed to the limits, driving fun shows up in different areas. The 328i totally lacks exhaust note for example, something the Hyundai Genesis coupe does a better job at. Not that BMW cannot make a nice exhaust for the 328i, they do, they just don't want it eat into the 335i sales.
May 10, 2012, 12:43 pm
If steering feel is your #1 priority in an automobile and is more important than engine performance, safety, fuel economy, transmission (8 speed AT), etc, then sure, get an E90 instead.
May 10, 2012, 12:45 pm
If someone wants a great handling, no holds barred, sporty automobile, and eschews luxury features and creature comforts there are many better choices available today, from the likes of Subaru, Nissan and Mazda, just for starters.
May 10, 2012, 1:14 pm
May 10, 2012, 1:15 pm
Well, you are comparing a car with a tech package that includes full GPS, iPod/phone integration, etc, to a BMW that has a stripped down i-drive that can't do much of anything. Not a fair comparison IMO. To a lot of buyers, the tech features are just as important as the heated leather seats.
May 10, 2012, 1:16 pm
If someone wants a great handling, no holds barred, sporty automobile, and eschews luxury features and creature comforts there are many better choices available today, from the likes of Subaru, Nissan and Mazda, just for starters.
May 10, 2012, 1:18 pm
May 10, 2012, 1:21 pm
May 10, 2012, 1:25 pm
Here's a thought.......drive the damn car without crashing. It's funny how everyone complains about how BMW is softening their cars up and getting away from the "driving experience" yet those are the same people that don't pay attention when driving and put all of the technology in their cars that help them forgot how to do things like staying in your lane or parking. There's some irony.
May 10, 2012, 1:29 pm
Here's a thought.......drive the damn car without crashing. It's funny how everyone complains about how BMW is softening their cars up and getting away from the "driving experience" yet those are the same people that don't pay attention when driving and put all of the technology in their cars that help them forgot how to do things like staying in your lane or parking. There's some irony.
Go sit in stop and go traffic for two hours a day, as millions of people do every work day and then after a year or two of that tell people how they shouldn't have traffic avoidance, music streaming and other technical aids on their cars.
May 10, 2012, 2:28 pm
May 10, 2012, 2:32 pm
If someone wants a great handling, no holds barred, sporty automobile, and eschews luxury features and creature comforts there are many better choices available today, from the likes of Subaru, Nissan and Mazda, just for starters.
May 10, 2012, 2:51 pm
Go sit in stop and go traffic for two hours a day, as millions of people do every work day and then after a year or two of that tell people how they shouldn't have traffic avoidance, music streaming and other technical aids on their cars.
May 10, 2012, 2:52 pm
May 10, 2012, 2:55 pm
The TSX you picked is a 201HP FWD car with 17" wheels. You can't seriously argue that is a comparable car to a 328i with sport/premium/tech package I offered as a comparison.
May 10, 2012, 2:57 pm
The TSX you picked is a 201HP FWD car with 17" wheels. You can't seriously argue that is a comparable car to a 328i with sport/premium/tech package I offered as a comparison.
May 10, 2012, 2:59 pm
Besides, you even picked on the parking assist and other things, what exactly do those have to do with distracted driving?
The bottom line is that things like hands free dialing, having the car read your text messages to you, iPod integration etc, are designed to make using tech in the car a SAFER experience (compared to fumbling with a handset) and are becoming standard in extremely entry level cars. The fact that to get these features in a 3-series BMW you have to spend upwards of $4K on tech+bmw apps, etc, is something that's going to become more and more obvious as these features simply become things that prospective buyers expect.
I can assure you that the Cadillac will have all of these toys too, and for far less than BMW does.
May 10, 2012, 3:10 pm
Back in topic, I got carried away with silly comparisons since some posters were criticizing ATS pricing. Let's be honest here for a minute, BMW option prices are beyond ridiculous so the base price of ATS will probably include a lot more than the base 328i.
May 10, 2012, 3:34 pm
May 10, 2012, 3:56 pm
All of the above back n forth debate seems to suggest, the ATS might have a very good shot at it. It seems to answer to both sides of the debate.
The question is, will they be able to deliver?
May 10, 2012, 4:04 pm
Btw, the link below shows all the ATS standard features and optional packages:
http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2013/cadi...ures/?mobile=1
May 10, 2012, 4:22 pm
http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2013/cadi...ures/?mobile=1
May 10, 2012, 6:44 pm
May 10, 2012, 6:46 pm
It will be the 3rd strike as a BMW contender. Cinnamon in the 80's. CT-S in 2003. And now this.
If BMW would dare to have a NA 4-cyl. in a 34K$ car, everybody would laugh at it.
May 10, 2012, 7:13 pm
If BMW would dare to have a NA 4-cyl. in a 34K$ car, everybody would laugh at it.
May 10, 2012, 7:19 pm
A very fine product from a continually improving GMC.
GALAXY Tab ~ Powered by ANDROID!
May 10, 2012, 8:08 pm
I have to admit, this car intrigues me. Anyone venture a guess as to when they will hit the market? Maybe June?
May 10, 2012, 8:11 pm
May 10, 2012, 9:18 pm
May 10, 2012, 9:45 pm
It can be much more fun sometimes to drive a slow car fast than a fast car at less than its capability.
May 10, 2012, 10:07 pm
May 10, 2012, 10:37 pm
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...lac-ats-33990/
The base model with the sad 2.5 4cylinder engine is 34k.
Turbo model is 36k
V6 model is 42k.
The turbo ATS model is priced the same as the 328i and the V6 model is a grand chepaer than the 335i for a bigger, heavier engine.
Caddy made a big blunder here. What is the advantage of the ATS if the pricing is the same? Yeah, maybe it will have leather standard so maybe 1-2k cheaper than equivalent 3 but really unless ATS starts at 4-5k cheaper, I can't see why one would opt for the Caddy.
May 10, 2012, 11:10 pm
http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2013/cadi...ures/?mobile=1
May 11, 2012, 1:31 am
So yes the N/A I6 328i for me is perfect for daily driving when I can actually push it hard on a daily basis, therefore really have some fun, without running into a ditch.
May 11, 2012, 8:28 am
May 12, 2012, 2:47 am
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/add-...ss-133265.html
The above article said the sub-3,400 weight is reserved for the base ATS model with the 2.5L. It also mentioned the 328i MT as low as 3,406 lbs. This does not look good for the ATS, with all the talk about how they succeeded in keeping the weight down, they will likely only manage to be in line with the 3, not beating it.
May 12, 2012, 8:10 am
The above article said the sub-3,400 weight is reserved for the base ATS model with the 2.5L. It also mentioned the 328i MT as low as 3,406 lbs. This does not look good for the ATS, with all the talk about how they succeeded in keeping the weight down, they will likely only manage to be in line with the 3, not beating it.
I think the way it drives will be more important though, and hopefully the magnetic suspension and LSD with make it more of a purist car than the 3 series.
Interesting that those two options are only available on the turbo four, not the six, and not with AWD. Again that seems to indicate how important they think weight is.
May 12, 2012, 8:32 am
I think the way it drives will be more important though, and hopefully the magnetic suspension and LSD with make it more of a purist car than the 3 series.
Interesting that those two options are only available on the turbo four, not the six, and not with AWD. Again that seems to indicate how important they think weight is.
May 12, 2012, 8:59 am
It'll have to be really special to drive at that price.
May 12, 2012, 9:19 am
I am curious what will an F30 328i with M sport and ride control packages cost, ordered without the "other crap."
May 12, 2012, 12:34 pm
You can get the LSD and MR shocks with the 2.0T RWD in manual only. You can get the LSD and MR with the 3.6L but they are auto only. I have no issue with this and I am sure more configurations will be added as time goes buy. My only interest is and I am assuming that's how most car enthusiasts and magazines will compare them is:
328i 6 speed M package vs ATS Turbo 6 speed LSD/MR package. Personally, I think the ATS looks phenomenal and with the F30 with going a bit soft it has a great shot of stealing some its sales.
May 12, 2012, 12:36 pm
May 12, 2012, 12:56 pm
328i 6 speed M package vs ATS Turbo 6 speed LSD/MR package. Personally, I think the ATS looks phenomenal and with the F30 with going a bit soft it has a great shot of stealing some its sales.
May 12, 2012, 1:20 pm
If BMW would dare to have a NA 4-cyl. in a 34K$ car, everybody would laugh at it.
May 12, 2012, 4:51 pm
If BMW would dare to have a NA 4-cyl. in a 34K$ car, everybody would laugh at it.
LMAO ! I'm tearing up...
Are we talking about a trip to Whole Foods Market ? Cimarron anyone ???
May 12, 2012, 6:22 pm
If BMW would dare to have a NA 4-cyl. in a 34K$ car, everybody would laugh at it.
3900 lb, 200 hp V6, rear drive, and rather unreliable.
May 12, 2012, 6:35 pm
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...-Midsize-Cars/
May 12, 2012, 6:50 pm
It is a decent car, it just falls shot of Caddy's pretense as a 3-series fighter. The 2nd CTS has evolved as something different as the STS vanished.
May 14, 2012, 10:01 am
May 14, 2012, 10:09 am
May 14, 2012, 11:16 am
May 14, 2012, 11:36 am
May 14, 2012, 11:54 am
I can't see myself in a CTS coupe, I think GM is right to tone the ATS down. If you want to compete in volume, must appeal to the mass, who do not want to look bad arse, just tastefully different.
The timing of the ATS bothers me. Supposedly the 2.5 will come out first, followed by the 3.6, then the 2.0T late in the year. So the first drives will compare the base 2.5 test with the benchmarks, recipe for humiliation.
May 14, 2012, 2:13 pm
The timing of the ATS bothers me. Supposedly the 2.5 will come out first, followed by the 3.6, then the 2.0T late in the year. So the first drives will compare the base 2.5 test with the benchmarks, recipe for humiliation.
May 14, 2012, 2:24 pm
May 14, 2012, 3:32 pm
May 14, 2012, 11:48 pm
ATS Starting at (some price no one will pay)!
GM picked this up from the Japanese. Make a car that's cheap, make a car that's got good fuel economy, and make a version that has a big engine. This way you can say in one commercial "It's not expensive, is fast, and gets great fuel economy." Sure it does, just not all at the same time.
May 15, 2012, 3:10 am
ATS Starting at (some price no one will pay)!
GM picked this up from the Japanese. Make a car that's cheap, make a car that's got good fuel economy, and make a version that has a big engine. This way you can say in one commercial "It's not expensive, is fast, and gets great fuel economy." Sure it does, just not all at the same time.
May 15, 2012, 3:51 pm
No doubt GM is pricing the ATS base on the 3 series' MSRP. Option for option, you can pretty much bet the ATS will be cheaper than the 3 series, GM will make sure of that.
May 15, 2012, 3:58 pm
May 15, 2012, 8:33 pm
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/dom...D=12622&type=0
May 16, 2012, 4:49 pm
GM should also consider using the Saab sourced 2.8T. It makes 300 hp and they already use it in the SRX.
May 16, 2012, 5:34 pm
Just the fact that we are having this heated debate over a Caddy is a testament to how far GM has come or how low BMW has fallen (or both) depending on your point of view.
While I understand BMW has to appeal to the mass (hence more emphasis on luxurification over driving dynamics), some of us feel ignored by a company we so faithfully supported over the years. At the end though, BMW still makes some of the best that blends luxury and performance, but the gap has narrowed to a razor thin margin.
May 16, 2012, 6:25 pm
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/03/r...fter-one-year/