F30 335i Goes Head 2 Head Against the Audi S4 - Can the BMW Hold Onto its Reign?

by Tim Jones on June 18, 2012, 10:19 am
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On this episode of Head 2 Head, Carlos Lago pits the new 2012 BMW 335i against it's natural rival from Ingolstadt - the 2012 Audi S4. The 3 Series has long enjoyed its reputation as the benchmark of European sports sedans. But does the more powerful S4 finally have what it takes to end BMW's reign?


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390 responses to F30 335i Goes Head 2 Head Against the Audi S4 - Can the BMW Hold Onto its Reign?

windsor027 commented:
June 18, 2012, 12:25 pm

Carlos needs to have someone check the brakes on that BMW. 60-0 in 131 feet? doesn't sound right.
dtc100 commented:
June 18, 2012, 12:36 pm

I am not too sure why they always compare the new F30 with all season tires, to other brands with standard performance tires. The tires make significant contribution to the "spreadsheet" results.

Having said that, I wasn't surprised that the S4 in its standard form is a more fun and better driver's car, it was built that way. It should be compared to a 335i with m sport and other performance add-ons.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 1:13 pm

You can't compare an Audi to a BMW. An Audi isn't a luxury car.

BJ
The X Men commented:
June 18, 2012, 1:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You can't compare an Audi to a BMW. An Audi isn't a luxury car.

BJ
Have you ever seen that Lexus commercial comparing the 3 series to the A4 and C-class and the ES350. They eliminated the 3 series immediately saying that the 3 series is not even consider a luxury sedan.
dtc100 commented:
June 18, 2012, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Have you ever seen that Lexus commercial comparing the 3 series to the A4 and C-class and the ES350. They eliminated the 3 series immediately saying that the 3 series is not even consider a luxury sedan.
I see a pattern here, if you can't compete, just disqualify your competitor so there is no need to compare.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 3:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Have you ever seen that Lexus commercial comparing the 3 series to the A4 and C-class and the ES350. They eliminated the 3 series immediately saying that the 3 series is not even consider a luxury sedan.
There is a class of automobile called the Wannabe Rebadges of which Audi, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, and Infiniti belong. No surprise that they try to align themselves with the likes of BMW and Mercedes Benz in their advertising, helps their brand strategy in which Mr. & Mrs. Camry blow the Christmas bonus on a Lexus as if it now means they can hob-knob with BMW onwers.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 3:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I see a pattern here, if you can't compete, just disqualify your competitor so there is no need to compare.
Cheez Whiz goes out of its way to act like it's a "real" cheese, makes the poor people feel special.

BJ
The X Men commented:
June 18, 2012, 4:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I see a pattern here, if you can't compete, just disqualify your competitor so there is no need to compare.
I am amazed at the amount of BMW fanboys in here, its probably higher than any brand I have seen. I guess that really say something about BMW as a brand, to be able to get people to following blindly without questions, almost like a cult
WaxComb commented:
June 18, 2012, 4:25 pm

Ignoring the all season versus summer tire issue (which I feel is a valid issue), I agree with the results.

I think the electric power steering in the 335i removes a lot of the steering feel compared with the S4. When I had a 2012 528i loaner, the steering most of the time wasn't an issue, but when pushed the feel wasn't there. Normally I can feel how fast I'm turning based on feedback in the wheel, but with the electric system, I couldn't feel the speed in the wheel.
DrivenByF30 commented:
June 18, 2012, 4:52 pm

I completely disagree with BoltjaM3s !!!

AUDI is a premium/luxury brand, as much as Lexus is, as much as Infiniti, as much as Acura ... and Cadillac...

AUDI is a luxury brand, period.

"The X Men" please dont confused one member for the entire group.


In this case, the Audi deserve its stronghold !
Great review by Carlos.
windsor027 commented:
June 18, 2012, 4:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxComb View Post
Ignoring the all season versus summer tire issue (which I feel is a valid issue), I agree with the results.

I think the electric power steering in the 335i removes a lot of the steering feel compared with the S4. When I had a 2012 528i loaner, the steering most of the time wasn't an issue, but when pushed the feel wasn't there. Normally I can feel how fast I'm turning based on feedback in the wheel, but with the electric system, I couldn't feel the speed in the wheel.
Personally I don't have an issue with the review, except for braking. 131 feet is waaay out there even with all season tires. In addition, I would have loved for them to test the 335i with the adaptive suspension and variable steering because then you have the sport + and this is what convinced me to get this type of setup, better feel.

BMW really should have upped the HP and torque we all know that the N55 is really not stressed at all with the 9lbs of boost right now. I know they will do it in a year or so but I think they missed out not coming with at least 330HP and 340lbs of torque setup.
justinnum1 commented:
June 18, 2012, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I am amazed at the amount of BMW fanboys in here, its probably higher than any brand I have seen. I guess that really say something about BMW as a brand, to be able to get people to following blindly without questions, almost like a cult
You mean your surprised that there are BMW fanboys in a BMW forum?

pretty naive if you ask me, go check out an audi or mercedes forum
The X Men commented:
June 18, 2012, 5:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
You mean your surprised that there are BMW fanboys in a BMW forum?

pretty naive if you ask me, go check out an audi or mercedes forum
No, I am not surprised that there are BMW fanboys in a BMW forum, but I am surprise at the number of them. Audi forums have their share of fanboys as well, but they are not as loyal, Mercedes forums are pretty boring
dtc100 commented:
June 18, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Personally I don't have an issue with the review, except for braking. 131 feet is waaay out there even with all season tires. In addition, I would have loved for them to test the 335i with the adaptive suspension and variable steering because then you have the sport + and this is what convinced me to get this type of setup, better feel.

BMW really should have upped the HP and torque we all know that the N55 is really not stressed at all with the 9lbs of boost right now. I know they will do it in a year or so but I think they missed out not coming with at least 330HP and 340lbs of torque setup.
And tires. All 335s should have performance tires standard, if nothing else the comparos will be less embarrassing. You can have as much power as you put out, and better suspension, but if the tires can not handle it, they are useless.
whoever commented:
June 18, 2012, 7:32 pm

Did S4 slow down? I remember 0-60 was 4.5 second, but now listed as 4.9. If that's the case, I think F30 can even beat it unofficially.

http://models.audiusa.com/s4-sedan/d...specifications
Kamdog commented:
June 18, 2012, 7:37 pm

It is hob nob, not hob knob.

We who achieved the status of the hoi polloi, know that.

brkf commented:
June 18, 2012, 7:53 pm

I assume the S4 would beat down the F30 just based on the fact the S4 comes with real tires, not eco-crazy low resistance prius-thin tires like the F30 carries standard.
captainaudio commented:
June 18, 2012, 7:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamdog View Post
It is hob nob, not hob knob.

We who achieved the status of the hoi polloi, know that.

+1

BMW drivers are poster children for the hoi polloi.


1 Hoi is the Greek word for the, and the phrase hoi polloi means 'the many.' This has led some traditionalists to insist that hoi polloi should not be used in English with the, since that would be to state the word the twice. But, once established in English, expressions such as hoi polloi are typically treated as fixed units and are subject to the rules and conventions of English. Evidence shows that use with the has now become an accepted part of standard English usage: they kept to themselves, away from the hoi polloi (rather than . . . away from hoi polloi). 2 Hoi polloi is sometimes used incorrectly to mean 'upper class'-that is, the exact opposite of its normal meaning. It seems likely that the confusion arose by association with the similar-sounding but otherwise unrelated word hoity-toity.
enigma commented:
June 18, 2012, 9:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am not too sure why they always compare the new F30 with all season tires, to other brands with standard performance tires. The tires make significant contribution to the "spreadsheet" results.

Having said that, I wasn't surprised that the S4 in its standard form is a more fun and better driver's car, it was built that way. It should be compared to a 335i with m sport and other performance add-ons.
I don't think the tires would have made much difference in the final outcome. The way I read it is that the major contributing factors in winning the contest was (1) steering, and (2) Open vs. Sport Diff.

I don't understand your logic of asking them to compare a factory car to a modded car. While the M-Performance parts are designed and made by BMW, they are not part of the car originally made at the factory. Where do we stop? Let them compete with Dinan parts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You can't compare an Audi to a BMW. An Audi isn't a luxury car.

BJ
Say what? I've heard all sorts of arguments, but this one takes the cake...

Look up "fanboi" and your statement is the definition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blueguydotcom View Post
I assume the S4 would beat down the F30 just based on the fact the S4 comes with real tires, not eco-crazy low resistance prius-thin tires like the F30 carries standard.
And don't forget the RFT aspect. However, as I stated above, the tire had little to do with numb steering feel or the hyperactive traction control or the open diff. Even with a proper set of summer tires, I don't think the results would have been different.
SuperTerp commented:
June 18, 2012, 9:37 pm

I think the S4 is a fine car, and I think its been beat on enough for me to avoid that , but it should also be noted if the "S-Line" is considered their M/AMG division equivalent, should that really be going up against what I would consider a base sedan? I mean it would make me feel better that a non-M base car can compete with another's sport division.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivenByF30 View Post
I completely disagree with BoltjaM3s !!!

AUDI is a premium/luxury brand, as much as Lexus is, as much as Infiniti, as much as Acura ... and Cadillac...

AUDI is a luxury brand, period.
You see someone pull up to the country club in a BMW, you go "Ooh, that guy has made it, lucky bastard!"

You see someone pull up to the Target in an Audi, you go "I see someone's Volkswagen dealer has upsold him $50 a month to the rebadged Jetta."

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post

Say what? I've heard all sorts of arguments, but this one takes the cake..

Look up "fanboi" and your statement is the definition.
No one ever says "Oooh, I hate that guy. He drives and Audi." BMW, different story. They write movies about people like us and the cars we ride. Audi? Take a Jetta, throw on some badges, boom, there's your Audi.

Cadillac is a Chevy, not fooling anyone there either. Acura to Honda, it goes on and on. These wannabe "luxury" cars are engineered first and foremost as budget cars for Mr. & Mrs. $47,000 A Year. Then, as a secondary concept, they are re-badged into faux luxury cars for people who don't know any better.

Back when I was a young lad making no coin I drove a beater Honda, couldn't wait to afford an Acura. Driving in it, only took a few days to realize it was no BMW, made no heads turn, made no friends jealous. Instead of being viewed as Mr. Rich Guy, instead I was viewed as Mr. Frugal, got major props for not spending more to "get the BMW".

It's how it works in the real world. Visit it sometime.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 18, 2012, 9:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamdog View Post

It is hob nob, not hob knob.

We who achieved the status of the hoi polloi, know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
+1

BMW drivers are poster children for the hoi polloi.
Sorry gentlemen, I gave my manservant the day off and he does my proofreading for me. Won't happen again, I assure you. He gets no more days off for the balance of the summer; even my socks were mismatched today, you have no idea how tough it was.

BJ
jeremy480 commented:
June 18, 2012, 10:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Cheez Whiz goes out of its way to act like it's a "real" cheese, makes the poor people feel special.

BJ
Isn't Cheez Whiz more expensive than real cheese?
brkf commented:
June 18, 2012, 10:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I think the S4 is a fine car, and I think its been beat on enough for me to avoid that , but it should also be noted if the "S-Line" is considered their M/AMG division equivalent, should that really be going up against what I would consider a base sedan? I mean it would make me feel better that a non-M base car can compete with another's sport division.
Uh, the rs4 is the m equivalent. S is simply their level above the 2.0t.
UnderSteer commented:
June 18, 2012, 10:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No one ever says "Oooh, I hate that guy. He drives and Audi." BMW, different story. They write movies about people like us and the cars we ride. Audi? Take a Jetta, throw on some badges, boom, there's your Audi.


BJ
cheikh82 commented:
June 18, 2012, 11:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I think the S4 is a fine car, and I think its been beat on enough for me to avoid that , but it should also be noted if the "S-Line" is considered their M/AMG division equivalent, should that really be going up against what I would consider a base sedan? I mean it would make me feel better that a non-M base car can compete with another's sport division.
I thought RS was considered M/AMG equivalent for Audi, not S.
SilverX3 commented:
June 18, 2012, 11:11 pm

RS = M
S = 335i
dtc100 commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy480 View Post
Isn't Cheez Whiz more expensive than real cheese?
Our boltjames are in mixed emotion these days, he is very proud to be ordering a new "real cheez" to replace his 2009 old cheez, unfortunately this activity also reminds him he could have ordered fresh cheez very 6 months, but to insist on the "real cheez" he had to eat old cheez.
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 6:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheikh82 View Post
I thought RS was considered M/AMG equivalent for Audi, not S.
How is that possible lmao, I see 2 cars with "R" shouldn't really count as a line if you've got two cars. R8 (which I wouldn't classify as really an Rline car) and TTRS.

10+ Amgs
6+ M4 for BMW

That is a what I'd consider a line. Now maybe they still sell RS cars overseas, but if it isn't where I'm driving I don't need to count it.
tlm999 commented:
June 19, 2012, 7:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
No, I am not surprised that there are BMW fanboys in a BMW forum, but I am surprise at the number of them. Audi forums have their share of fanboys as well, but they are not as loyal, Mercedes forums are pretty boring
Wonder what the reason would be for that?

I looked at and drove the S4 and A6 before my last trade and ended up sticking with BMW. Audi is getting close but they aren't quite there yet, still just a luxury VW as Lexus is just an upper end Toyota and Caddy a fancy Chevy. One of these days they may make it but not yet.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 9:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlm999 View Post

I looked at and drove the S4 and A6 before my last trade and ended up sticking with BMW. Audi is getting close but they aren't quite there yet, still just a luxury VW as Lexus is just an upper end Toyota and Caddy a fancy Chevy. One of these days they may make it but not yet.
They will never make it.

No 15 year old is sitting in his mom's basement, staring at the ceiling, pondering his future, dreaming of a successful life, saying to himself "Someday, I'll be able to own an Audi".

It just isn't happening. Audi is a nice upgrade for a Volkswagen owner whose made a few bucks, nothing more. BMW is a status symbol for a Volkswagen owner who's made it.

BJ
The X Men commented:
June 19, 2012, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
They will never make it.

No 15 year old is sitting in his mom's basement, staring at the ceiling, pondering his future, dreaming of a successful life, saying to himself "Someday, I'll be able to own an Audi".

It just isn't happening. Audi is a nice upgrade for a Volkswagen owner whose made a few bucks, nothing more. BMW is a status symbol for a Volkswagen owner who's made it.

BJ
Congrats, I think you have really made it to the big time driving a 2009 BMW 328i.
kjboyd commented:
June 19, 2012, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No one ever says "Oooh, I hate that guy. He drives and Audi." BMW, different story. They write movies about people like us and the cars we ride. Audi? Take a Jetta, throw on some badges, boom, there's your Audi.

Cadillac is a Chevy, not fooling anyone there either. Acura to Honda, it goes on and on. These wannabe "luxury" cars are engineered first and foremost as budget cars for Mr. & Mrs. $47,000 A Year. Then, as a secondary concept, they are re-badged into faux luxury cars for people who don't know any better.

Back when I was a young lad making no coin I drove a beater Honda, couldn't wait to afford an Acura. Driving in it, only took a few days to realize it was no BMW, made no heads turn, made no friends jealous. Instead of being viewed as Mr. Rich Guy, instead I was viewed as Mr. Frugal, got major props for not spending more to "get the BMW".

It's how it works in the real world. Visit it sometime.

BJ
You do realize BMW is "Germany's GM" right? A 318 four banger with cloth and stick certainly isn't a luxury car. Is it?
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 9:50 am

Interesting video, and result.

What blows my mind is how close-minded some people can be. I'm a big fan of BMW, but I understand there are lots of other very good cars out there. To say your chosen car is the only good car is like saying your poop doesn't stink like everyone elses.

BMW has the advantage of being a privately owned company, and not part of a huge mega-conglomeration (not counting Mini and RR.) This gives them that "brand cachet" BJ is so focused on. However, and I think many would agree here, but BMW has been watering down their vehicles and brand lately in the pursuit of larger market share. Just look at this very comparison: it was stated multiple times how the 335i was more economical! The eco-tires, the efficient dynamics (including electric steering) and so-on. And that's why the 335i lost this comparo.

Just because Audi (and Lexus, Cadillac, etc.) are parts of larger brands does not make them less of a car. Does the fact that MB sells trucks and inexpensive compacts make them less luxury than BMW? Well, in the mind of narrow-sighted consumers it must. Why do you think MB does not sell those models in the US? In fact, I think Audi has an advantage here: They have more technical resources to rely upon, a larger source of funds, and perhaps most importantly, all those Jettas and Golfs to balance the CAFE numbers so they don't have to turn the 335i into a Prius.

I view BMW, MB and Audi on equal terms. Just as I'm sure a huge segment of consumers do. Lexus too, especially with the new GS beating the 5 Series in comparisons. Cadillac has been upping its game since GM realized they need to build good cars. And Acura and Infinity, Jaguar and Porsche and Fisker and some others are all playing in the same pool. Maybe some of those brands have qualities that I would never consider for myself. But they are there and people buy them. Regardless of what others may think (or not think) about them.

Honestly, if Audi didn't just ditch the Avant from the US market, it would be a very tough decision for me between an F31 and an A4 Avant.
tagheuer commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:03 am

Obsession is spot on....fanboys make me crazy.

BMW owners are pretty annoying....I have had 5 in a row...but man, they wonder why people hate them....usually the stereotype fits

BMW is clearly taking things in a different direction, and they cater to a more status oriented buyer, period. Those are facts. They are leaning more towards fuel economy and luxury and moving away from sport.

The last couple models have had numb steering, and the tires are awful. The horrible braking distance has been discussed, and its a real problem. BMW is spending tons of R&D on fuel economy, with start stop (that can stall), sh!tty eco tires, blah blah.

Their sales will continue to go up, they are marketing towards people who want BMWs for status, because they have leather seats etc.

Just recognize they are going in a slightly different direction, that's all.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
You do realize BMW is "Germany's GM" right? A 318 four banger with cloth and stick certainly isn't a luxury car. Is it?
Exactly. Only someone who has not been to Europe would consider BMW a "luxo" brand. News flash ... BMW is like GM in Europe, they build everything. Just look at some of the Welt delivery photos people post, see those crappy looking little weird hatch backs and stuff in the background? Those are the equivelants of the Pontiac Aztek that BMW builds for the Euro market.

Audi ONLY builds upscale cars. The lowest end Audi is something like a 1.3T A3 that sells for something like 30,000 euros. By comparison you have always been able to get a stripped down 3 series in europe that has cloth seats, AM radio, etc. LOL.

Audi are considered much more luxury in Europe than BMW. Only someone delusional is under the impression that round the world people think of Audi as nothing but a fancied up VW.
UnderSteer commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:11 am

Claiming that because BMW is not part of a larger car company means that they make superior or more presitigious products is simply narrow minded and ignorant. Most truly prestigious marques are part of larger companies including Porsche, Bentley and Lamborghini (Volkswagen), Ferrari (Fiat).
beden1 commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You see someone pull up to the country club in a BMW, you go "Ooh, that guy has made it, lucky bastard!"

You see someone pull up to the Target in an Audi, you go "I see someone's Volkswagen dealer has upsold him $50 a month to the rebadged Jetta."

BJ
Actually, we get much more "Oohs" and Ahhs pulling up to our country club in the Audi S4 than we do in either our M3, 335is or 535xi. I guess it's because BMWs around here are like a dime a dozen, whereas Audis look much more exclusive as there are far fewer on the road.

But, maybe you know better as you no doubt see many more cars pulling up to a country club than do I, since you're perhaps the one parking the cars?
gator15 commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:41 am

I think that the competition between the two companies is great, at least for the consumer. Audi and BMW will continue to produce great cars and each company will only make the other better. BMW has enjoyed its place atop the luxury sedan market for a very long time and Audi is now coming very close to matching BMW. Personally, when I compared the 3 series to the A4, the choice between the two were clear. However, I am happy that there were two viable options for me to select from and truthfully, I would have been happy with either one.
windsor027 commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:44 am

I don't like the way this thread has gone. you know why? because we now have BMW owners defending BMW as being the more luxurious and status conscious. Damn it where has the true reason for BMW ownership, driving the best all around sport sedan in the world gone? Out of the window and this is the reason why the F30 was geared more towards those people that like the status and luxury (not that its neither to me) than someone like me that just loves the way the thing can carve up mountain roads.
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Audi are considered much more luxury in Europe than BMW.
And Buicks are big in China I guess I don't see the point to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I don't like the way this thread has gone. you know why? because we now have BMW owners defending BMW as being the more luxurious and status conscious.
Exactly, it's totally on the individual to decide that. I don't bat an eye anymore seeing the Bentley GT's there are so many around. If you like your car be thankful you have enough cash to enjoy something you love 328 or m6.
The X Men commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
I think many would agree here, but BMW has been watering down their vehicles and brand lately in the pursuit of larger market share. Just look at this very comparison: it was stated multiple times how the 335i was more economical! The eco-tires, the efficient dynamics (including electric steering) and so-on. And that's why the 335i lost this comparo.
I can somewhat understand BMW's thinking and their new direction. For years, other car companies have been trying to take market share away from BMW by building sportier cars. I must say, a few of those car companies are very close or have succeeded. The market for a ultra sport sedan is a lot smaller than the market for a well compromise luxury sport sedan. Knowing this, BMW is trying to beat their competition at their own game, by building a well compromised design vehicle instead. Sure, they could have gone the other way and design cars that perform better than their competition and become even more hard core, but that will shrink their market even more, instead, they leave the true sport enthusiast with the M-class and some expensive performance options. It’s no doubt a win win situation for BMW as the sales numbers indicates.
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I can somewhat understand BMW's thinking and their new direction. For years, other car companies have been trying to take market share away from BMW by building sportier cars. I must say, a few of those car companies are very close or have succeeded. The market for a ultra sport sedan is a lot smaller than the market for a well compromise luxury sport sedan. Knowing this, BMW is trying to beat their competition at their own game, by building a well compromised design vehicle instead. Sure, they could have gone the other way and design cars that perform better than their competition and become even more hard core, but that will shrink their market even more, instead, they leave the true sport enthusiast with the M-class and some expensive performance options. It's no doubt a win win situation for BMW as the sales numbers indicates.
The other problem is technology, it's far easier for companies to cram a suspension/car full of nannies, and appear too have amazing handling/ or an amazing product, where even 10 years ago it required far more "engineering" and R&D.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
And Buicks are big in China I guess I don't see the point to that.



.
The point is that it was indicated by someone else in this thread that Audi is not a luxury brand, which is a laughably absurd suggestion.
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
The point is that it was indicated by someone else in this thread that Audi is not a luxury brand, which is a laughably absurd suggestion.
Gotcha , again totally subjective, delusional as it may seem lol…. I'd never consider Buick a lux-o brand, but PBS ran a whole segment on news hour, for China and I was shocked , not my taste, but who am I to wreck someone on a purchase they feel good about.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Gotcha , again totally subjective, delusional as it may seem lol… I'd never consider Buick a lux-o brand, but PBS ran a whole segment on news hour , not my taste, but who am I to wreck someone on a purchase they feel good about.
Well there are marquees where you can have that debate, or it might depend on the market (Pontiac in China, etc)... however, to suggest that ANY of the premium marquees like Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes are not luxury brand is patently ridiculous. They are luxe in ALL of the markets they sell in.
jeremy480 commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
You do realize BMW is "Germany's GM" right? A 318 four banger with cloth and stick certainly isn't a luxury car. Is it?
one man's country's trash is another man's country's treasure.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:36 am

Not to mention the fact that if you boil it down, there is no longer such a thing as a "Luxury Car", "Sports Car", "Family Car", etc. Everything built today by all the manufacturers have some blend of two or more of these "classes".

A modern BMW such as the 3 Series has perhaps a 45/35/20 blend of Luxury/Sports/Family in it. Even classic enthusiast BMWs like the E30 were not 100% of any class. Though perhaps it was more of a 20/60/20 blend.

Manufacturers will chase the money. And modern consumers seem more interested in throwing their money at luxury and prestige than sport and handling. Even your super and hyper cars have leather seats, doodads, and are drivable without bodily injury or risk of death.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
You do realize BMW is "Germany's GM" right? A 318 four banger with cloth and stick certainly isn't a luxury car. Is it?
Actually, I think VW is Europe's GM, since it has all the brands and has a goal of taking over the world. BMW is more like Ford.
captainaudio commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
The other problem is technology, it's far easier for companies to cram a suspension/car full of nannies, and appear too have amazing handling/ or an amazing product, where even 10 years ago it required far more "engineering" and R&D.
A car does not "appear" to have amazing handling, it either has it or it does not. The means by which that handling is achieved is moot.

To set up a computerized suspension, etc takes a lot of resources and very deep pockets and is by no means a simple task.

CA
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
A car does not "appear" to have amazing handling, it either has it or it does not. The means by which that handling is achieved is moot.

To set up a computerized suspension, etc takes a lot of resources and very deep pockets and is by no means a simple task.

CA
I'm not implying it's something a kid with a google app designer could do. But technology can compensate where it couldn't be for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy480 View Post
one man's country's trash is another man's country's treasure.
I think that's equally absurd. But if Audi makes you that mad you sign up to defend it lol they need to get you on staff. That kind of loyalty is invaluable.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Congrats, I think you have really made it to the big time driving a 2009 BMW 328i.
It doesn't matter what you think as we're not trying to impress you. You drive a new 5 Series and are better than us lowly 3 Series owners. 5% of the wealthiest people in the country know better. You do, I do.

It's the other 95% of America that views BMW owners as arrogant, snobby, successes. Those are the people to whom a BMW humbles. An Audi is inconsequential in their eyes, just like we like it. Mr. & Mrs. Camry see a BMW, they get red in the face, in a jealous rage.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
You do realize BMW is "Germany's GM" right? A 318 four banger with cloth and stick certainly isn't a luxury car. Is it?
Yes, and next will come the "they use Mercedes Benz E Class for taxi's in Germany!" argument to which I'll respond "We don't live in Germany and in America, a BMW oozes status which makes us happy."

BJ
dtc100 commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:28 pm

Someone earlier made a good point, the fact BMW is not a "rebadged" car makes it not having the cheaper models to absorb the fuel economy requirements, 3ers being the base volume seller naturally have the burden of achieving as high an mpg as possible in order to meet the quota, while still trying to maintain some level of sporty characters.

The upcoming ATS for example, may not have to, because it has the Chevy Cruze/Sonic to take that mpg spread, so Caddy may have more luxury to tune the ATS like an E46.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post

Audi are considered much more luxury in Europe than BMW. Only someone delusional is under the impression that round the world people think of Audi as nothing but a fancied up VW.
Good news for us: We live in America.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well there are marquees where you can have that debate, or it might depend on the market (Pontiac in China, etc)... however, to suggest that ANY of the premium marquees like Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes are not luxury brand is patently ridiculous. They are luxe in ALL of the markets they sell in.
First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 12:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ
lol really not holding back I do enjoy reading it.
The X Men commented:
June 19, 2012, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ
Do you know that the Audi engineering division is totally sepersate from the VW's R&D department? The last gen S6 share an engine with the Lamborghini Gallardo and as someone mentioned earlier, the A3 shares the same navi system as the Lamborghini, does that make the Lamborghini just another VW?
I had 3 Audi before my current BMW and I can tell you that I get a lot more attention from my Audi 2012 A6 than I do now with my 535xi.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 1:39 pm

I aspire to own an Audi. I think many people on these forums do. I actually think Audi is more of a luxury brand than BMW. Typically, Audi surpasses BMW with comfort and interior design. While BMW has always been more about driving dynamics. However, based on this comparison between the 335i and S4, it looks as though those attributes have flip-flopped!

In fact, Audi's sales have been outpacing other luxury brands, particularly in the US. I do believe that Audi is gaining because it has all the comfort and luxury of MB and BMW, plus smashing good looks (subjective) and the lack of the pretentiousness of the BMW badge.

BJ, I rarely call anyone out on the boards, because for the most part I'm a tree-hugging non-confrontational dude who wants everybody to get along. And I respect that everyone is going to have their own opinion. But how can you say things like "nobody aspires to owning an Audi" and "Audi (and the other brands) aren't luxury cars"? Have you asked every single US resident and tallied their responses? You're welcome to your opinions and you may despise anything without an Roundel on it, but please refrain from speaking for the entire US/world population. Personally, I don't want you speaking for me, because I don't agree with a single thing you say. Speak for yourself, and we can all be happy.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)
sr5959 commented:
June 19, 2012, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Exactly. Only someone who has not been to Europe would consider BMW a "luxo" brand. News flash ... BMW is like GM in Europe, they build everything. Just look at some of the Welt delivery photos people post, see those crappy looking little weird hatch backs and stuff in the background? Those are the equivelants of the Pontiac Aztek that BMW builds for the Euro market.

Audi ONLY builds upscale cars. The lowest end Audi is something like a 1.3T A3 that sells for something like 30,000 euros. By comparison you have always been able to get a stripped down 3 series in europe that has cloth seats, AM radio, etc. LOL.

Audi are considered much more luxury in Europe than BMW. Only someone delusional is under the impression that round the world people think of Audi as nothing but a fancied up VW.
Audi range in Europe starts with the A1 for about $18k incl taxes.

Audi and BMW are both Premium brands not luxury, and they are both considered about the same in terms of status.

Both make very good cars, you can't go wrong with either.
SuperTerp commented:
June 19, 2012, 1:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)
I'd say its like a hybrid not quite a lux, not quite a sports sedan . I can't get my vented seats or $3500k B&O speakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
Both make very good cars, you can't go wrong with either.
This
Frenchx3 commented:
June 19, 2012, 2:08 pm

It is funny to see such brand loyalty here. Particularly from BJ who probably craps BMW roundels. I have owned both BMW's and Audi's. Audi's are definitely nice vehicles. I happen to like them both as well as other makes and models. I have the ability to appreciate more than 1 brand. I couldn't imagine eating the same thing every day for the rest of my life any more than I could imagine driving the same make and model vehicle.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
Audi and BMW are both Premium brands not luxury, and they are both considered about the same in terms of status.
That's the term I couldn't think of: Premium. Yes... All the brands being discussed are indeed that, Premium brands. You pay more for a higher level of refinement than your non-premium brands that do basically the same thing.

(And the Premium brands: BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, Cadillac, etc. all have some blend of luxury, sport, practicality and other aspects. Some more than others.)
dtc100 commented:
June 19, 2012, 2:39 pm

They are luxury cars, though more accurately they are "entry level luxury sporty cars."

BJ's view does have a good representation not only in the US but abroad. In fact I think BMW has made a point of this, by being a more exclusive luxury car maker with emphasis in driving dynamics, there is benefit to its consumer base.

But now we begin to see the downside. BMW could merge with Hyundai, allow them to share technologies, and mpg requirements, so the BMW brand does not have to be so mpg conscious, and BJ can easily gain a lot of new friends.

Not as if he could go somewhere else abroad. Not as if he could even move to the MB brand, the name DaimlerChrysler had left a permanent scar in his heart.
enigma commented:
June 19, 2012, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ
I gotta give you credit for being persistent, however wrong/losing end of the argument you may be on.

I just can't comprehend your endless infatuation with BMW. Yes, we are all fans of the brand, but you seem to have taken an extra step of being emotionally married to it.

Following your trend of thought, would it be fair to say that the Porsche 911 is a re-badged VW Bettle? And the Audi R8 would be rebadged what? And the Lambo Reventon?

Ever wonder why many think BMW drivers are snobs? I think you should look yourself in the mirror for an answer.
Michael Schott commented:
June 19, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ
Partially right, partially wrong and mostly the same old tired BoltJames shtick. The A5 is not a Jetta or any other VW chassis. And of course, every brand you name is considered by the general public to be a luxury brand. Just because BMW and Mercedes are not part of larger groups doesn't make them any more "special" or "luxury" than their competition. And other than the ES and SUV's every Lexus has their own specific non-Toyota chassis.
The X Men commented:
June 19, 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.
There are plenty of cheap strip down BMW and Mercedes in Europe and they are basically the same car as the BMW sold here but at half of the cost. Going with that same train of thought, isnt that relationship the same as the ES350 being a dress up Toyota Avalon?
tturedraider commented:
June 19, 2012, 3:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am not too sure why they always compare the new F30 with all season tires, to other brands with standard performance tires. The tires make significant contribution to the "spreadsheet" results.

Having said that, I wasn't surprised that the S4 in its standard form is a more fun and better driver's car, it was built that way. It should be compared to a 335i with m sport and other performance add-ons.
Agreed. This comparo isn't apples to apples. He needs to do it again with an M Sport. I have never heard anyone call BMW's stability control intrusive. Did they change its parameters? I've also never heard anyone say the 3er's interior was more luxurious than the A4's. Weird.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Agreed. This comparo isn't apples to apples. He needs to do it again with an M Sport. I have never heard anyone call BMW's stability control intrusive. Did they change its parameters? I've also never heard anyone say the 3er's interior was more luxurious than the A4's. Weird.
My guess is at the time of the comparison, the M Sport wasn't available yet. So, unfortunately for the 335i, it loses the comparison because BMW decided to make the Sport more eco-friendly than enthusiast-friendly.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 3:59 pm

BMW losing the occasional comparo is not a bad thing, that kind of feedback (kind of like when C&D gave the performance sedan crown to the S4 a few years ago and the 335i was toppled) is what drives them to do better.

BMW is toeing a fine line, between economy, "luxury" and performance.... and they are eyeing China, where performance is much less of a concern typically, as eventually displacing the US as their biggest market.

If Germany was their biggest market, we would see a very different kind of product I think in the 3 series.
derSpeed commented:
June 19, 2012, 4:22 pm

After reading this thread, I wondered:

What was BMW's competition for the S4 before the 335i?

If I were a kid, would an R8 be on my list of cars I want.

Who has taken their BMW apart (I have, and not just mine) and noticed that the components are of no better quality than those of an Audi, or VW in some cases.

Who wants to hobnob with folks who "hob-knob?"



This forum actually reminds me of the VW, Audi, Volvo and Saab forums I have belonged to in the past. Very helpful members and very little arrogance. In my experience, Benz forums are full of the latter. Those types seem to have little car knowledge. Still great cars to own though.
tturedraider commented:
June 19, 2012, 4:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
My guess is at the time of the comparison, the M Sport wasn't available yet. So, unfortunately for the 335i, it loses the comparison because BMW decided to make the Sport more eco-friendly than enthusiast-friendly.
Agreed. This is the reason I would not be interested in a 2012 model. DUMB decision by BMWNA. Someone should be fired. They should have had the sense to know this handicapped car would be compared to the top of the line competitors. This isn't their first rodeo. Now all these mediocre first impressions are out there in internet foreverland.
tturedraider commented:
June 19, 2012, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
BMW losing the occasional comparo is not a bad thing, that kind of feedback (kind of like when C&D gave the performance sedan crown to the S4 a few years ago and the 335i was toppled) is what drives them to do better.

BMW is toeing a fine line, between economy, "luxury" and performance.... and they are eyeing China, where performance is much less of a concern typically, as eventually displacing the US as their biggest market.

If Germany was their biggest market, we would see a very different kind of product I think in the 3 series.
There is a very different 3er in Germany. Lots of four cylinder diesels with manual transmissions.
tturedraider commented:
June 19, 2012, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by derSpeed View Post
After reading this thread, I wondered:

What was BMW's competition for the S4 before the 335i?

If I were a kid, would an R8 be on my list of cars I want.

Who has taken their BMW apart (I have, and not just mine) and noticed that the components are of no better quality than those of an Audi, or VW in some cases.

Who wants to hobnob with folks who "hob-knob?"



This forum actually reminds me of the VW, Audi, Volvo and Saab forums I have belonged to in the past. Very helpful members and very little arrogance. In my experience, Benz forums are full of the latter. Those types seem to have little car knowledge. Still great cars to own though.
The other war around. BMW didn't have 3er competition for the S4, because nobody had any real competition for the 3er.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 19, 2012, 5:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The other war around. BMW didn't have 3er competition for the S4, because nobody had any real competition for the 3er.
I think in the past the comparison kinds of loosely went like...

3 Series range <-> A4 range
M3 <-> S4
M3 specialty cars (CSL, etc.) <-> RS4

However, even that wasn't necessarily an apples-apples lineup. Now things are a little different and line up more like this...

328 <-> A4
335 <-> S4
M3 <-> RS4

I remember years ago Top Gear doing a comparison between the M3 and S4, and pretty much said the S4 was the executive sports saloon with poise and refinement, while the M3 was the the aggressive little dog yapping away and nipping at its heels. In many ways that held true for the entire BMW-Audi comparison. Audi was always the automotive business suit while BMW was the track suit.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 5:39 pm

Eric, you're going to have to be careful about that kind of non Audi bashing attitude around here, you might get an earful!

Really though both are great cars... someone fortunate enough to have either as a daily ride should not be pissed off if the one they did not chose wins a comparison.
frowningdeity commented:
June 19, 2012, 7:10 pm

boltjames is right. you either get it or you don't.
tturedraider commented:
June 19, 2012, 7:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Eric, you're going to have to be careful about that kind of non Audi bashing attitude around here, you might get an earful!

Really though both are great cars... someone fortunate enough to have either as a daily ride should not be pissed off if the one they did not chose wins a comparison.
Just have to make a little comment here about one of Audi's new ads where the folks are climbing out of their Bimmers to climb onto an Audi car carrier as they all move down the road. Love Audi's "tagline", "Today more people than ever are leaving BMW for Audi." Of course, for that to be true only ONE more person than in the "past" has to leave BMW for Audi. Kind of like all the insurance commercials, "People who left XYZ auto insurance company saved an average of $10,000 per month when they switched to ABC auto insurance." And all the people who didn't save didn't switch. And the actual number of people who switched was two.
voip-ninja commented:
June 19, 2012, 8:11 pm

Yeah, it's a pretty stupid ad. OTOH I do believe that Audi has been taking share from other premium auto makers in the US over the last few years.
captainaudio commented:
June 19, 2012, 8:16 pm

No dumber than "Joy", "The Four Door Sports Car", "Engineered to Move the Human Spirit", "Grab Life by the Horns", "Standard of the World", "What a Luxury Car SHould Be", or any of the other BS slogans ad agencies have come up with.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 9:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post

Ever wonder why many think BMW drivers are snobs? I think you should look yourself in the mirror for an answer.
That's the entire point. That's why we drive BMW's. I don't get why so many want to hide their heads in shame from the very perception that has been created over thirty decades.

Embrace the stereotype.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's the entire point. That's why we drive BMW's. I don't get why so many want to hide their heads in shame from the very perception that has been created over thirty decades.

Embrace the stereotype.

BJ
WOW!

Thirty Decades - That's 300 years! Who would have thought that!

Even Mercedes Benz only goes back 110 years.

With BMW's 200 year head start it's amazing the other car companies have comes as close to BMW as they have.

Amazing the the Bavarians of the early 1700s were able to establish a car company and infuse it with so much prestige and still manage to fight a war with the Ottoman Empire.





CA
johnc_22 commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
WOW!

Thirty Decades - That's 300 years! Who would have thought that!

Even Mercedes Benz only goes back 110 years.

With BMW's 200 year head start it's amazing the other car companies have comes as close to BMW as they have.

Amazing the the Bavarians of the early 1700s were able to establish a car company and infuse it with so much prestige and still manage to fight a war with the Ottoman Empire.

CA
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
rdollie commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:32 pm

Here, let me help...

Any brand with a worldwide daily production number that includes a comma IS NOT a luxury BRAND (they might have luxurious models/trim lines) but true luxury isn't made in high volume for ANY industry/product I know of...
captainaudio commented:
June 19, 2012, 10:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
Including him.



CA
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdollie View Post
Here, let me help...

Any brand with a worldwide daily production number that includes a comma IS NOT a luxury BRAND (they might have luxurious models/trim lines) but true luxury isn't made in high volume for ANY industry/product I know of...
Rolex is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average wristwatch owner.

Louis Vuitton is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average luggage owner.

Chanel for cosmetics. Harry Winston for jewelry. Prada, Dior, Armani, the list goes on. Lots of commas there in weekly production.

"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 19, 2012, 11:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
I'm not looking to set any forum on fire or entertain. It astounds me that there are BMW drivers who actually think that the vast majority of BMW drivers are in it for this "performance" myth and not the "status symbol" reality.

In my neighborhood, a BMW is the bare-minimum badge needed to turn a head or two on the streets, I see about two dozen 3 Series a day, I get where some are coming from about how "dime-a-dozen" they can be, trust me. But by the same token I've lived in communities that aren't so fabulously well off, was lucky to see a single other 3 Series in a day, could go months without an M3 or E93 sighting.

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
jackson328xi commented:
June 20, 2012, 12:33 am

As an E92 owner I felt that BJs posts in the forum (and the subsequent reactions) had become an important part my BMW experience. Therefore I am excited to see that my F32 forum participation will have the same perks.

@BJ I was in my friends Infiniti today and could not stop wondering why he paid so much for a Nissan Maxima.

@Everybody else, Do we think there will be an upgrade for the 335 engine when the coupes come out? I remember the E90 330i getting killed by the new lexus IS (at the time) etc and vala, out came the N54. Thoughts?
rdollie commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:30 am

Sorry I respectfully disagree. Only the young / nouveau would look at a BMW as something to attain. At 43 years of age I'm not old but I'm old enough to remember when the average e36 had a very pedestrian interior. It might have seemed like a 'premium' car to the working class but to just as many of them it was simply an odd-ball non-American car (in much the same way a Saab or Volvo might have been perceived) and for many it was simply a car for snobs or d-bags who were newly rich. If you go back a few decades a Mercedes felt special or different to the working class. If you climbed into one it truly showed interior craftsmanship well beyond what a Caddy or Lincoln would exhibit (and commanded a premium for it.) BMW wasn't on the radar as a status symbol for the working class or wealthy. In those days the money in BMWs went into the chassis / suspension design and not as much in the interior and exterior looks. If you wanted a luxury car you bought a Benz, Caddy, or even a Lincoln not a BMW.

It's only in the past couple of generations of models that BMW grew a reputation for premium cars in the U.S. since they wouldn't ship stripped cars on anything but a custom order.

I do agree that the average person who buys a BMW isn't buying it for performance. BMW also agrees by putting such a high ratio of the materials cost into gadgets, leather, etc.

Whether an uneducated (automotively) person recognizes that the average U.S.-sold Audi has as much if not more premium content than a comparable BMW doesn't change the fact that Audi is every bit as 'luxury' or 'premium' as BMW. If you disagree I suggest you write the German government and tell them to stop chauferring their Chancellors around in Audis as they've done for years. I also don't think the 'average' non-car guy even knows VAG owns both Audi and VW (not like they're sold under the same roof anymore) letalone Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, etc.

In my experience, in less well off parts of the country people don't aspire to own BMWs. They're just coming around to buying foreign brands built in North America (e.g., Toyota, Nissan, etc.) They might covet a nicer SUV, King Ranch p/u, etc. but even when I've seen people in mid-America with money they don't go out and buy BMWs. In areas with a lot of money BMWs are the equivalent of Honda Civics (when I lived in South Orange County, CA a BMW 3 series was literally a shopping accessory for a teenaged girl - it was the most common car in the mall parking lots and usually you saw a teen girl and her friends getting out or climbing in loaded with packages - of course this was when everybody used their home equity as a piggy bank.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm not looking to set any forum on fire or entertain. It astounds me that there are BMW drivers who actually think that the vast majority of BMW drivers are in it for this "performance" myth and not the "status symbol" reality.

In my neighborhood, a BMW is the bare-minimum badge needed to turn a head or two on the streets, I see about two dozen 3 Series a day, I get where some are coming from about how "dime-a-dozen" they can be, trust me. But by the same token I've lived in communities that aren't so fabulously well off, was lucky to see a single other 3 Series in a day, could go months without an M3 or E93 sighting.

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
kjboyd commented:
June 20, 2012, 2:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
Just to flame the fire... Do you really think the average American KNOWS that an Audi is made by Volkswagen? Or for that matter, VW owns Porsche, and that a Cayenne is just a rebadged VW Toureg?
sf_loft commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:04 am

Lamborghini made a public statement to its customers that it will not use more that 30% of Audi parts in their vehicles. Audi Group operates as a separate entity even though it is owned by VAG. Since the Audi group owns Lambo, what does that make a Lambo? An Audi or a VW. I just love reading the posts that fanboys make and how they try to discount anything negative about their brand.

Here's a photo of a Lambo trans-axel

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, BMW parts are no better than Audi or VW because they are simply random part bins. Many parts are actually in common between Audi, BMW, and MB because they use companies like GETRAG, Bosch, etc. to develop transmission, steering, and other components for their specific cars. Premium automakers do not manufacture all their own parts. They engineer and design the car as a whole and outsource its manufacturing to other companies. Chassis and engine are mostly what many automakers still do in-house.

Here is a list of U.S. suppliers for their U.S. plant - They pretty much use the same suppliers as GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

http://www.bmwusfactory.com/uploaded...0for%20web.pdf

Another thing about Audi that you fanboys do not understand is that it was acquired by VW and not conceived by them unlike Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. VW is growing through acquisition and using its power and money to successfully grow brands faster than the brands themselves could do independently. Parts will be shared to control cost, but engineering and design are still, for the most part, independent.

Audi
Porsche
Lamborghini
Bugatti
Bentley
Skoda
SEAT, sa

Ducati Motorcycles <-- Recent acquisition

Look past the VW brand and just think about the access to resources that Audi has from its step siblings. These companies are thriving because of VW's deep pockets. BMW is where they are because of its badge and brand recognition. BJ is right, if you were to ask a poor boy in India what his dream car would be, he would say BMW or MB before a Bugatti. The downside is that you have your average joe leasing a BMW for $400/month and he thinks he owns something special.
sf_loft commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:35 am

To respond to BJ's comment on how Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura is not a Luxury brand, here is some objective data to prove him wrong.

Top 50 most search for luxury brands in the U.S.:



A focus on the Luxury Automobile Market
An insight into the most popular segment shows the breakdown of searches by car models. Audi dominates featuring 4 of its models in the top 15 ranking, with the Audi A4 claiming the number spot. The 4th most popular automobile brand Acura, sees its TL model taking 2nd position while the brand leader BMW has its 3 series ranking only in 7th position.




in China:



in Russia:

SuperTerp commented:
June 20, 2012, 6:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
To respond to BJ's comment on how Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura is not a Luxury brand, here is some objective data to prove him wrong.
Ohhh yea! Patek Philippe isn't on those lists people just don't know greatness... Rolex
gizmo jean commented:
June 20, 2012, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
+1 High comedy. And yet seemingly sophisticated adults seem to fall for it every time. Kudos to BJ!
Michael Schott commented:
June 20, 2012, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Rolex is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average wristwatch owner.

Louis Vuitton is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average luggage owner.

Chanel for cosmetics. Harry Winston for jewelry. Prada, Dior, Armani, the list goes on. Lots of commas there in weekly production.

"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
I don't understand what you mean. Seriously. Why are BMW and Mercedes out of reach for Mr and Mrs Sonata (or Accord or Fusion) but Cadillac, Lexus and Audi who compete at the same price point are not? Cadillac may not have the same prestige as the others but it is still a brand with cache. The typical aspirational luxury car buyer sees Lexus and Audi to be as unobtainable as BMW or Mercedes.
The X Men commented:
June 20, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
I consider myself an average middle class American, I can buy a brand new basic 2011 328i for about the same price as a loaded Toyota Camry V6. I would say that both cars are not out of reach for the average American. The Camry is actually faster and bigger, the 328i is sportier and better built, it really depends on one's piority.
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 9:44 am

Wait, if 3ers are the 7th most searched, A4 the number one searched, but the 3ers out sell A4, does that not support BJ's contention somewhat?
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Wait, if 3ers are the 7th most searched, A4 the number one searched, but the 3ers out sell A4, does that not support BJ's contention somewhat?
So let me see if I have this straight.

The fact that the 3 Series outsells the A4 supports the contention that the 3 Series is more exclusive than the A4 and that the 3 Series is out of reach for most people and the A4 is not.
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 10:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
So let me see if I have this straight.

The fact that the 3 Series outsells the A4 supports the contention that the 3 Series is more exclusive than the A4 and that the 3 Series is out of reach for most people and the A4 is not.
His contention here is not the 3ers are more exclusive, as more rare, or out of reach of everyone, only out of reach of the poor. Rich bastards are still dime and dozen out there.
SuperTerp commented:
June 20, 2012, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I consider myself an average middle class American, I can buy a brand new basic 2011 328i for about the same price as a loaded Toyota Camry V6. I would say that both cars are not out of reach for the average American. The Camry is actually faster and bigger, the 328i is sportier and better built, it really depends on one's piority.
Lots of factors though, financing options/incentives (typically better with non lux brands), pricing: truecar is saying Camry alone should be 6-9% off (3er is like 1-4%), and even a FULLY maxed out to like 33-35k, are just a few.
UnderSteer commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
His contention here is not the 3ers are more exclusive, as more rare, or out of reach of everyone, only out of reach of the poor. Rich bastards are still dime and dozen out there.
1. The average price of a new car is $31,000.
2. The MSRP of a 328i Sedan is $34,900.
3. A base 328i Sedan is 12.5% more expensive than the average car assuming that it was purchased for MSRP.
4. Most 3 Series are purchased for less than MSRP.
5. Most 3 Series sell for more than just the base model price but you get the same badge on the hood and trunk regardless of how much you spend on options.
The X Men commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Lots of factors though, financing options/incentives (typically better with non lux brands), pricing: truecar is saying Camry alone should be 6-9% off (3er is like 1-4%), and even a FULLY maxed out to like 33-35k, are just a few.
My wife just bought a 2011 328xi for 11% off plus 0.9 financing.
sf_loft commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Ohhh yea! Patek Philippe isn't on those lists people just don't know greatness... Rolex
Unless you are a watch snob, Rolex, TAG, and Omega are the only brands most people will know about. Audimar, IWC, Patek, paneira, etc are foreign to them.
voip-ninja commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I consider myself an average middle class American, I can buy a brand new basic 2011 328i for about the same price as a loaded Toyota Camry V6. I would say that both cars are not out of reach for the average American. The Camry is actually faster and bigger, the 328i is sportier and better built, it really depends on one's piority.
Middle class "average American" with not one but two year old BMWs, one of which stickers for over $50K? I don't think so. The average american spends about $25-$30,000 on a car.
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
1. The average price of a new car is $31,000.
2. The MSRP of a 328i Sedan is $34,900.
3. A base 328i Sedan is 12.5% more expensive than the average car assuming that it was purchased for MSRP.
4. Most 3 Series are purchased for less than MSRP.
5. Most 3 Series sell for more than just the base model price but you get the same badge on the hood and trunk regardless of how much you spend on options.
If you assert an average new car selling price, then tell us the average (not just bare base model) new 3ers (not just 328i) selling price for fair comparison.
SuperTerp commented:
June 20, 2012, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
My wife just bought a 2011 328xi for 11% off plus 0.9 financing.

*With the 13's getting ready to launch with xdrive
Fixed for you X
OBS3SSION commented:
June 20, 2012, 12:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Middle class "average American" with not one but two year old BMWs, one of which stickers for over $50K? I don't think so. The average american spends about $25-$30,000 on a car.
Nah, it's possible. It all depends on priorities. I know it's an extreme example, but you could conceivably make $10K/yr, live in a box, but have saved up all your money to buy a BMW.

I don't know the "official numbers", but I believe I'm firmly in the middle class. My wife and I own a VW and a BMW and a nice, middle-class house that require us to make sacrifices on our spending in other areas. Yet my sister and brother-in-law fall below us on the income ladder, own a tiny, run-down house, but have 4 cars in their driveway!
voip-ninja commented:
June 20, 2012, 12:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Nah, it's possible. It all depends on priorities. I know it's an extreme example, but you could conceivably make $10K/yr, live in a box, but have saved up all your money to buy a BMW.

I don't know the "official numbers", but I believe I'm firmly in the middle class. My wife and I own a VW and a BMW and a nice, middle-class house that require us to make sacrifices on our spending in other areas. Yet my sister and brother-in-law fall below us on the income ladder, own a tiny, run-down house, but have 4 cars in their driveway!
Again, we're talking "average"... which, for examples provided means, what is the average number of cars owned by an American family and what is their average value.

It's probably something like 2 cars per family with an average "value of something like $20,000 (lots of kids with beater cars dragging the numbers down).

So, if something like that is the case, and you have $80K of car sitting in your drive, you are not an average example.

People feeling average or not has little to do with whether they fit into the average range. For example, many wealthy families don't "feel wealthy" and would argue that they are wealthy, even though, statistically they are.
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If you assert an average new car selling price, then tell us the average (not just bare base model) new 3ers (not just 328i) selling price for fair comparison.
The issue is whether a 3 Series is within reach so the comparison to the base model is probably valid, especially since the base model come rather well equipped.

The average price of a new car is $30,748.

CA
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Nah, it's possible. It all depends on priorities. I know it's an extreme example, but you could conceivably make $10K/yr, live in a box, but have saved up all your money to buy a BMW.

I don't know the "official numbers", but I believe I'm firmly in the middle class. My wife and I own a VW and a BMW and a nice, middle-class house that require us to make sacrifices on our spending in other areas. Yet my sister and brother-in-law fall below us on the income ladder, own a tiny, run-down house, but have 4 cars in their driveway!
I had more money to spend on cars when I was younger with few financial responsibilities than when I was a bit older and had mortgage payments, was saving for retirement, etc.

I think this holds true for most people. Having two incomes, no children, a paid off mortgage, etc. can put you in a better position to spend extra bucks on a nice car than someone who has to worry about putting kids through college, paying off a home, funding the 401K, etc. even though that person may have a higher income.

Also the population may be divided into three classes (upper, middle, lower) but that does not mean that each class is composed of 1/3 of the population.
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:25 pm

For those that are not average, say some of them cut back on everything else just to have several entry level luxury cars, it will be very interesting to see what kind of such cars they tend to buy. This stats may just be perfect to prove or disapprove BJ's theory.
voip-ninja commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:32 pm

I am not interested in proving/disproving BJ's theory (he is on my ignore list actually).

However, a lot of how exclusive a BMW 3 series car is depends on where you live, the median income, etc.

In California (as has been pointed out) 3 series cars are extremely common, I would go out on a limb and say that in the somewhat more affluent (not wealthy) suburbs of Southern California you are more likely to see a 3 series car than a Honda or Toyota.

If I recall, California is still (even with China emerging as competition) the single biggest market for BMW in the world.

Certainly if you are stuck on an LA area freeway, surrounded by thousands of 3 series cars, any feeling of exclusivity that might exist in other parts of the country is nonexistent. On the other hand, other brands are very possibly apt to get more attention, and even though I've seen more Bentleys in a 1 hour drive in California then I have seen in the rest of my life, I would say that some other luxury auto makers might have more "mystique" in So-Cal than BMW.
jusmills commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:50 pm

If nothing else, you really have to appreciate BJ's ability to push debate. Even though sometimes I don't agree with his point of view, I have to admit that for the majority of people in this country (not necessarily BMW enthusiasts) BMW and MB represent some sort of halo car. Everyone knows of the true luxury monikers (Bentley, RR etc) but those cars are out of touch. However, BMW and MB have for a long time been the stretch cars that most people aspire to have (I'm talking being able to afford a 3/5 series or C/E class cars). Audi has been making a big push to get included in this list. I would agree they have a very compelling argument as they've been able to latch onto mass-production techniques at VW and now have access to the engineering/performance powerhouses of Porsche/Lamborghini.

The thing with Audi is that the speed of development of what everyone perceives as BMW/MB level cars is astounding. I think within 5-10 years people will be saying that they aspire to own an Audi. The point is that they can produce these cars at VW level costs + a little more and still sell at BMW prices. With all that profit, I'm thinking that in a few years, Audi will be able to consistently out-sport most BMWs and out-luxury most MBs.

I think within 5-10 years people will be saying that they aspire to own an Audi
frowningdeity commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:51 pm

lots of 'statisticians' in this thread, i see.

quoting the average price (MSRP) of a new car is almost completely meaningless. a much better number to know would be the average price PAID for a car (new or used) by everyone in the country for a given year. that captures what people can actually afford to pay. i think we can expect to see that number be a lot lower than the average price for a new 3er.

on top of that, average price paid doesn't capture the number of people who can't afford to buy a car at all, even used. go ride the city bus and ask those people if they think your BMW is a luxury car.

74% of americans earn less than $50k a year. most of them clearly can't blow a year's salary on a new car. i don't know why some of you insist on using inflated 'averages' to imply that BMWs are really econoboxes. the term 'middle class' is also meaningless as the income difference between the top earners who consider themselves 'middle class' and the bottom is $100k/yr or more.

boltjames is biting stephen colbert, it's hilarious that some people fail to recognize sarcasm. but there is truth in irony.
voip-ninja commented:
June 20, 2012, 1:55 pm

Heh, in my area of the country many people dislike German cars altogether and their idea of luxury is a rolling living room, a.k.a, Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator, both of which can be optioned up (easily) to $60,000 or more.

At the end of the day, it's all relative.
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
lots of 'statisticians' in this thread, i see.

quoting the average price (MSRP) of a new car is almost completely meaningless. a much better number to know would be the average price PAID for a car (new or used) by everyone in the country for a given year. that captures what people can actually afford to pay. i think we can expect to see that number be a lot lower than the average price for a new 3er.

on top of that, average price paid doesn't capture the number of people who can't afford to buy a car at all, even used. go ride the city bus and ask those people if they think your BMW is a luxury car.

74% of americans earn less than $50k a year. most of them clearly can't blow a year's salary on a new car. i don't know why some of you insist on using inflated 'averages' to imply that BMWs are really econoboxes. the term 'middle class' is also meaningless as the income difference between the top earners who consider themselves 'middle class' and the bottom is $100k/yr or more.
.
The number quoted is the average price paid for a new car and is somewhat moot since a large proportion of cars are leased today and the monthly payment is more signicant than the selling price.

BMWUSA is currently listing a lease deal on a 328i at $399/mo. Honda USA is currently listing a lease deal of $250/mo on an Accord LX (four cylinder). $150/month is not an insignificant amount of money for many people but it is conceivable that by cutting down in some areas they could be driving a BMW instead of a Honda if that is where their priorities are.
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 2:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
lots of 'statisticians' in this thread, i see.

quoting the average price (MSRP) of a new car is almost completely meaningless. a much better number to know would be the average price PAID for a car (new or used) by everyone in the country for a given year. that captures what people can actually afford to pay. i think we can expect to see that number be a lot lower than the average price for a new 3er.

on top of that, average price paid doesn't capture the number of people who can't afford to buy a car at all, even used. go ride the city bus and ask those people if they think your BMW is a luxury car.

74% of americans earn less than $50k a year. most of them clearly can't blow a year's salary on a new car. i don't know why some of you insist on using inflated 'averages' to imply that BMWs are really econoboxes. the term 'middle class' is also meaningless as the income difference between the top earners who consider themselves 'middle class' and the bottom is $100k/yr or more.
.
The number quoted is the average price paid for a new car and is somewhat moot since a large proportion of cars are leased today and the monthly payment is more signicant than the selling price.

BMWUSA is currently listing a lease deal on a 328i at $399/mo. Honda USA is currently listing a lease deal of $250/mo on an Accord LX (four cylinder). $150/month is not an insignificant amount of money for many people but it is conceivable that by cutting down in some areas they could be driving a BMW instead of a Honda if that is where their priorities are.

Just to clarify my perspective. I live in Manhattan and most people in my neighborhood do not choose to own cars because in many ways car ownership here is a huge hassle due to the parking situation. Many of these people are very well fixed financially but see no particular benefit to car ownership and are content to ride the bus. Actually I use public transportation myself to move around the city and have always used cars strictly as weekend getaway cars.
frowningdeity commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:01 pm

well, it's easy to get around this problem. all we'd need is the income distribution of people who drive BMWs, lease or buy.

i'd predict that the figure would be significantly higher than the real average individual income.

when people say things like 'the average person', they don't really mean that. the average person is a lot poorer than you think.
voip-ninja commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
when people say things like 'the average person', they don't really mean that. the average person is a lot poorer than you think.
Bingo.
frowningdeity commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Statistics say the median salary for a BMW owning household is around $160,000 annually. The difference between 3 series owners ($140,000) and full size luxury 7 series ($260,000) is significant, yet tends to be indicative of luxury brands, with Mercedes owners pulling in $170,000 and Audi lovers at $183,000. It seems luxury is limited to the 100k plus club, yet the 328i couple starts at $37,650, relatively tame in actuality.
source

not a reputable source (in fact a terrible one), but the only one with summative info that i could find on a cursory search.

when people say 'the average person' what they probably mean is 'the average person around me' or 'the average person i know.' and given the demographics of this forum, i'd guess that not many people are friends with welfare recipients.

and that's really the issue - for all intents and purposes the perception and brand image attributed to the car you drive is fully dependent on the zip code you live in. that's the reason why so many people here insist that BMW isn't all that special. people on the other side of the tracks are a nonconsideration.
dealio commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:31 pm

"the only true lux cars are bimmers and maybachs" - boltjames
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
well, it's easy to get around this problem. all we'd need is the income distribution of people who drive BMWs, lease or buy.

i'd predict that the figure would be significantly higher than the real average individual income.

when people say things like 'the average person', they don't really mean that. the average person is a lot poorer than you think.
So in other words the average person tends to be below average.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmills View Post
If nothing else, you really have to appreciate BJ's ability to push debate. Even though sometimes I don't agree with his point of view, I have to admit that for the majority of people in this country (not necessarily BMW enthusiasts) BMW and MB represent some sort of halo car. Everyone knows of the true luxury monikers (Bentley, RR etc) but those cars are out of touch. However, BMW and MB have for a long time been the stretch cars that most people aspire to have (I'm talking being able to afford a 3/5 series or C/E class cars). Audi has been making a big push to get included in this list.
Great summary of what I'm talking about.

Audi may make a car that's better than a BMW, more expensive than a BMW, and more exclusive than a BMW.

But it's still an Audi.

BJ
frowningdeity commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:44 pm

You mean rebadged vw.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Bimmer App
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I am not interested in proving/disproving BJ's theory (he is on my ignore list actually)...
Except you might be proving his point.

If you see a lot of 3ers on the road, assume some of them are driven by those not-so-average persons, who cut back on other expenses just to be able to drive an entry level luxury car, then is it not a subtle way of saying the "poor people" aspire to BMW more so than the other entry level luxury brands, for example the Audi A4?

Most A4 drivers appear older aged with more income, and a lot of 3 drivers appear young and less affluent, so a lot more people stretch themselves to get a 3 or C, than getting an A4.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Unless you are a watch snob, Rolex, TAG, and Omega are the only brands most people will know about. Audimar, IWC, Patek, paneira, etc are foreign to them.
Precisely.

The other thing to remember is that today's 30-40 year old aspirational automotive buyer was 12-22 years old in 1994 and that's when their impression of brands and status-symbols was first developed. It's great that Audi stepped it up in 2010 with their better bodystyle's and savvy advertising campaigns, but that's not going to be very relevant to today's buyer who remembers BMW from 1994 like this:



....and Audi from 1994 like this:



In 15-20 years perhaps today's 12-22 year olds will think of Audi differently than their parents do. Audi today pays the price for the crap they dumped on the world in the mid-90's that looked ugly and was always in the repair shop. Talk to me in 2030, Audi.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Except you might be proving his point.

If you see a lot of 3ers on the road, assume some of them are driven by those not-so-average persons, who cut back on other expenses just to be able to drive an entry level luxury car, then is it not a subtle way of saying the "poor people" aspire to BMW more so than the other entry level luxury brands, for example the Audi A4?

Most A4 drivers appear older aged with more income, and a lot of 3 drivers appear young and less affluent, so a lot more people stretch themselves to get a 3 or C, than getting an A4.
This could be a new ad campaign.

"BMW the number one choice of people who like to pretend they aren't really poor."

I personally prefer it to "Joy".

X
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

The other thing to remember is that today's 30-40 year old aspirational automotive buyer was 12-22 years old in 1994 and that's when their impression of brands and status-symbols was first developed. It's great that Audi stepped it up in 2010 with their better bodystyle's and savvy advertising campaigns, but that's not going to be very relevant to today's buyer who remembers BMW from 1994 like this:



....and Audi from 1994 like this:



In 15-20 years perhaps today's 12-22 year olds will think of Audi differently than their parents do. Audi today pays the price for the crap they dumped on the world in the mid-90's that looked ugly and was always in the repair shop. Talk to me in 2030, Audi.

BJ
Excellent Point!
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
This could be a new ad campaign.

"BMW the number one choice of people who like to pretend they aren't really poor."
LOL. Picture that it's a 10 year High School reunion, held at a nice country club.

Steve drives up in a new BMW, flips the keys to the parking attendant. The gathered throng whispers to themselves "Wow, Steve's made it, driving a BMW and only 6 years out of college, damn I'm jealous." A few moments later, Todd drives up in an Audi, hands the keys to the parking attendant. "Good to see Todd again, amazing how he looks the same, my mother drives a Passat too."

BJ
dealio commented:
June 20, 2012, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Excellent Point!
lol

captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
LOL. Picture that it's a 10 year High School reunion, held at a nice country club.

Steve drives up in a new BMW, flips the keys to the parking attendant. The gathered throng whispers to themselves "Wow, Steve's made it, driving a BMW and only 6 years out of college, damn I'm jealous." A few moments later, Todd drives up in an Audi, hands the keys to the parking attendant. "Good to see Todd again, amazing how he looks the same, my mother drives a Passat too."

BJ
And then they see Stan pulling in and the prom queen says to the head cheerleader,:
Who's that guy Steve?, I don't remember him being in our class."
"Is Stan still single? I'm going to go say hello to him and give me my phone number. I hope his face cleared up."

dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:15 pm

Stan clearly isn't your average person since he was not in that class, which presumably consisted of only average kids.
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Stan clearly isn't your average person since he was not in that class, which presumably consisted of only average kids.
Stan WAS an average kid until his unmarried Uncle Thaddeus died and left him 50,000 shares of Apple.

CA
SuperTerp commented:
June 20, 2012, 4:59 pm

Then BoltJames pulls up kicks Todd in the face, and lights his s4 on fire. All while doing a route recalculation (because teleatlas algorithms are s*) to Todd's newly divorced wife, because lets be honest no audi owner is married



Happily ever after
AutoUnion commented:
June 20, 2012, 6:25 pm

This thread reeks of butthurt. I can't believe this is how "enthusiasts" think these days.

Completely clueless
crazyperson commented:
June 20, 2012, 6:28 pm

i love this thread.

"people don't aspire to drive Audi". that's so awesome.

am taking August delivery on 2013 Audi S4. my plate should read "REBAGD VW"

you guys should totally crash audizine
windsor027 commented:
June 20, 2012, 6:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
This thread reeks of butthurt. I can't believe this is how "enthusiasts" think these days.

Completely clueless
That was my point a few pages in this thread ago. Anyone that buys a car even for a little status is not an enthusiast.
dtc100 commented:
June 20, 2012, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyperson View Post
i love this thread.

"people don't aspire to drive Audi". that's so awesome.

am taking August delivery on 2013 Audi S4. my plate should read "REBAGD VW"

you guys should totally crash audizine
Your personlized plate should read "A VER 8G" for good disguise.
mdsbuc commented:
June 20, 2012, 8:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyperson View Post
i love this thread.

"people don't aspire to drive Audi". that's so awesome.

am taking August delivery on 2013 Audi S4. my plate should read "REBAGD VW"

you guys should totally crash audizine
LOL, Great first post! Welcome to bimmerfest...
crazyperson commented:
June 20, 2012, 8:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your personlized plate should read "A VER 8G" for good disguise.
i am massively pro irony ... actually there should be a clever vanity plate thread.
that would be fun.

I'm thinking about "FML"

when you're cursing how good the S4 looks at the red light behind me, I just want you to be thinking F M L. #VWProblems (wait, this is not twitter?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
LOL, Great first post! Welcome to bimmerfest...
everyone on the audi forums loves audi. i'd way rather talk with you guys

but seriously, go here, the audi dudes need some crazy:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ead-Episode-10
sf_loft commented:
June 20, 2012, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

The other thing to remember is that today's 30-40 year old aspirational automotive buyer was 12-22 years old in 1994 and that's when their impression of brands and status-symbols was first developed. It's great that Audi stepped it up in 2010 with their better bodystyle's and savvy advertising campaigns, but that's not going to be very relevant to today's buyer who remembers BMW from 1994 like this:



....and Audi from 1994 like this:



In 15-20 years perhaps today's 12-22 year olds will think of Audi differently than their parents do. Audi today pays the price for the crap they dumped on the world in the mid-90's that looked ugly and was always in the repair shop. Talk to me in 2030, Audi.

BJ
When I was that age in 1994, my parents didn't have a lot of money, but I had three posters up in my bedroom throughout junior high and high school. One was of a Porsche 911, a Corvette, and an Acura NSX. I grew up in NYC where there should be a good number of BMW's and MB's running around. The one thing I hear over and over again as a kid from my parents, their co-workers, and relatives is the fact that BMW and MB are some of the most unreliable cars you can buy. That has always stuck in my mind and never saw it as a sought after luxury car.

As a kid in the 90's I was more focused on the Nissan 300z, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, NSX, Toyota Supra, Porsche 911, and Corvette. I always saw BMW and MB as boring looking cars for old people. It wasn't until the mid 2000's did I start to like BMW, Audi, and MB designs. As kids, your taste hasn't matured enough to want them. Back then, BMW wasn't as mainstream as they are now and you simply knew that they were expensive and that only old people buy them. Maybe that's just me, but I'm curious to hear who here was a teenager in the 90's and saw BMW as their dream car.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You can't compare an Audi to a BMW. An Audi isn't a luxury car.
You are right. To qualify, any car with pretensions of luxury should come in its base form with manual seats, no sunroof, and plastic seats. Audi fails on all three accounts.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivenByF30 View Post
AUDI is a premium/luxury brand, as much as Lexus is, as much as Infiniti, as much as Acura ... and Cadillac...
I feel like Americans tend to focus too much on the brand. To me, it is the model of the car that matters, not so much the brand. A VW Phaeton is more of a luxury car than a 3 can ever be. Citroen made the lowly 2cv as well as some really nice CX versions. While many mass manufacturers do tend focus on certain market segments, many cover the entire spectrum of luxury.

Is a 316 with rental car interior a luxury car? Lower end 3s don't bother Europeans who opt for 335is, but BMW's image in the US would certainly take a huge hit if such cars were ever imported here. That's why we typically see only the highest-end trims and engines in the US.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No surprise that they try to align themselves with the likes of BMW and Mercedes Benz in their advertising,
What put BMW on the map was the 2002, a very, very far cry from luxury. Up until not too long ago, MB owners tended not to consider BMW even as an option. Then as it went upmarket, they looked down at it as the car of choice for obnoxious guido punks and loudmouth nouveaux riches. In the last 25 years or so, it has become a more acceptable option amongst civilized circles
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post

This thread reeks of butthurt. I can't believe this is how "enthusiasts" think these days.

Completely clueless
I'm not representing how "enthusiasts" think. The 300 or 400 of you who track your bloated and heavy 3 Series are out there on your own. I'm speaking of how the average person thinks. And we don't care about horsepower or twisties; we just care about the status the badge brings.

We get our kills standing still.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You see someone pull up to the country club in a BMW, you go "Ooh, that guy has made it, lucky bastard!"
$399/mo for a 3. Just heard it on the radio. Wooo, you da big man. That must be the community centre country club.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post

I feel like Americans tend to focus too much on the brand. To me, it is the model of the car that matters, not so much the brand.

A VW Phaeton is more of a luxury car than a 3 can ever be.


BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
$399/mo for a 3. Just heard it on the radio. Wooo, you da big man. That must be the community centre country club.

boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
$399/mo for a 3. Just heard it on the radio. Wooo, you da big man. That must be the community centre country club.
Sorry, you drive a Volkswagen so I can't talk to you.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Sorry, you drive a Volkswagen so I can't talk to you.

BJ

I have a friend who drives a Volkswagen. I am not sure what model it is but she says its a great car.
You can see it parked in front of her house in this picture.
You probably can't talk to her either.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have a friend who drives a Volkswagen. I am not sure what model it is but she says its a great car.
You can see it parked in front of her house in this picture.
You probably can't talk to her either.
Really wealthy people have their jets and their yachts and their multiple homes to show off so they transcend the rest of us who need the sheetmetal to let others know how important we are. Again, like the guy from Beverly Hills, we're not talking about what billionaires and track-minded "enthusiasts" think. They're less than 1% of the auto driving population. We're talking about everyone else.

Most of us are never going to be that fithy-rich guy, but we do very well and the BMW lets everyone know that.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Really wealthy people have their jets and their yachts and their multiple homes to show off so they transcend the rest of us who need the sheetmetal to let others know how important we are. Again, like the guy from Beverly Hills, we're not talking about what billionaires and track-minded "enthusiasts" think. They're less than 1% of the auto driving population. We're talking about everyone else.

Most of us are never going to be that fithy-rich guy, but we do very well and the BMW lets everyone know that.

BJ
So there may be something to the ad campaign we discussed.

"BMW, the number one choice of people who like to pretend they're rich"
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tagheuer View Post
Their sales will continue to go up, they are marketing towards people who want BMWs for status, because they have leather seats etc.
Actually, that's not even true for the 3, many have plastic seats And you can also get leather seats in a Civic
bayoucity commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Actually, that's not even true for the 3, many have plastic seats And you can also get leather seats in a Civic
That's the point. BJ prefers Black Leatherette in his M328i .
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yes, and next will come the "they use Mercedes Benz E Class for taxi's in Germany!" argument to which I'll respond "We don't live in Germany and in America, a BMW oozes status which makes us happy."

BJ
Does a 328i oozes status? It is after all the lowest end and cheapest BMW you can get. It's the poor man's BMW, with plastic seats and manual seats. Who is the typical 328i owner? Is it "guido?" (do an image goole search) Is it the assistant secretary who occasionally bangs a guy or two when she doesn't have enough money for the lease payment? Is it the high school girl who got one as a graduation or sweet 16 gift? Or is it the responsible middle aged man who has saved enough to deal with all possible financial disaster scenarios and finally feels like splurging a little?
boltjaM3s commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
So there may be something to the ad campaign we discussed.

"BMW, the number one choice of people who like to pretend they're not poor"
Yes, with one slight exception. Last time I checked, the average American family income is $47,000 a year and those people are not driving new BMW's. I'm not sure what the definition of "poor" is, but let's say it's at 50% of the US average or an annual family income of $23,500 and those people are obviously not driving new BMW's either.

Last time I checked, only 18% of all American families are making more than $100,000 annually. Take away 3% for those clearing $300,000, and that remaining 15% is the group that you are talking about. You are right that the 3% making big money could care less about the lesser 15% in low-six-figures who are driving BMW's, but that's not who the 15% cares about. They care about the 85% that most definitely cannot afford one and those are the ones that they get to flaunt the roundel in front of every single day.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 20, 2012, 11:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchx3 View Post
It is funny to see such brand loyalty here. Particularly from BJ who probably craps BMW roundels.
I am new here, but I think he is also having fun with it.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
That's the point. BJ prefers Black Leatherette in his M328i .
I used to hate leatherette until I had kids with muddy football cleats, grassy soccer cleats, and dusty baseball uniforms.

Two squirts of Fantastik and it's gone.

The best part about leatherette? No one knows it's not real leather. Everyone who sees a BMW driver just assumes his $50,000 luxury car has to have leather. And therefore it is leather. The only people in the world who can tell the difference are 50 poseur enthusiasts in this forum. We're not trying to impress you.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yes, with one slight exception. Last time I checked, the average American family income is $47,000 a year and those people are not driving new BMW's. I'm not sure what the definition of "poor" is, but let's say it's at 50% of the US average or an annual family income of $23,500 and those people are obviously not driving new BMW's either.

Last time I checked, only 18% of all American families are making more than $100,000 annually. Take away 3% for those clearing $300,000, and that remaining 15% is the group that you are talking about. You are right that the 3% making big money could care less about the lesser 15% in low-six-figures who are driving BMW's, but that's not who the 15% cares about. They care about the 85% that most definitely cannot afford one and those are the ones that they get to flaunt the roundel in front of every single day.

BJ
Actually the average American Family income is approx $63,000. The median individual income is about $47,000.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Does a 328i oozes status? It is after all the lowest end and cheapest BMW you can get. It's the poor man's BMW, with plastic seats and manual seats. Who is the typical 328i owner? Is it "guido?" (do an image goole search) Is it the assistant secretary who occasionally bangs a guy or two when she doesn't have enough money for the lease payment? Is it the high school girl who got one as a graduation or sweet 16 gift? Or is it the responsible middle aged man who has saved enough to deal with all possible financial disaster scenarios and finally feels like splurging a little?
All of the above. Nice to see you finally make some sense.

82% of all American households make less than $100,000 a year annually. Those people don't know leatherette from leather, 328i from 335i, sport line from luxury line, or any of these other nitpicks that only a car junkie could know or care about.

All they know is that the $575 we burn every month on our $50,000 station cars is their mortgage payment and they hate us for it. Audi doesn't command that kind of respect.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
All of the above. Nice to see you finally make some sense.

82% of all American households make less than $100,000 a year annually. Those people don't know leatherette from leather, 328i from 335i, sport line from luxury line, or any of these other nitpicks that only a car junkie could know or care about.

All they know is that the $575 we burn every month on our $50,000 station cars is their mortgage payment and they hate us for it. Audi doesn't command that kind of respect.

BJ
$575/mo is my garage payment, actually now its $1150/mo.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
boltjames is right. you either get it or you don't.
We get. 95+% slushtronics and all
bayoucity commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
$575/mo is my garage payment.
No offense, that's the daily payroll for my 3 1/2 staffs. I'm from the south where standard of living isn't as high as the Northeast.
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
No offense, that's my daily payroll for my 3 1/2 staffs.
No offense taken. I sold my company seveal years ago and don't have any payroll to worry about anymore.

CA
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm not looking to set any forum on fire or entertain. It astounds me that there are BMW drivers who actually think that the vast majority of BMW drivers are in it for this "performance" myth and not the "status symbol" reality.
A friend's 60+ year old mom wanted a 540. I said why not a 528? She probably doesn't need all that power. But it turned out it wasn't about power at all. It was about the higher model number: 540 > 528! True story! I am not even sure she knew what the differences were between the models
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdollie View Post
S.. and for many it was simply a car for snobs or d-bags who were newly rich.
Or more like for those who wanted to pretend they were rich.
bayoucity commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
No offense taken. I sold my company seveal years ago and don't have any payroll to worry about anymore.

CA
I'm jealous indeed. I look forward to the day when I can simply use Quicken for my taxes instead of an accounting firm. I also look forward to the day when I can go back to using 1040-EZ versus over 100+ pages of return.
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
I'm jealous indeed. I look forward to the day when I can simply use Quicken for my taxes instead of an accounting firm. I also look forward to the day when I can go back to using 1040-EZ versus over 100+ pages of return.
My company changed ownership frequently and unpredictably.
Some days I owned it and some days it owned me.

CA
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMWUSA is currently listing a lease deal on a 328i at $399/mo. Honda USA is currently listing a lease deal of $250/mo on an Accord LX (four cylinder). $150/month is not an insignificant amount of money for many people but it is conceivable that by cutting down in some areas they could be driving a BMW instead of a Honda if that is where their priorities are.
Which brings us to an even more important point. Many people don't by BMWs not because they can't afford them There are many people out there who don't give a damn about cars and who are mostly practical about what they chose. My uncle is a retired doctor. He and his wife have a 4-banger Accord and a Honda Fit. They "fight" over who gets to drive the Fit. Did they get these cars because that's what they can afford? A few months ago I saw his name on a donors list for a $25K donation he made to some art organization. Yeah, I think he could have stretched and reached into the exclusive world of 328s Or he just doesn't give a shhhit.
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Which brings us to an even more important point. Many people don't by BMWs not because they can't afford them There are many people out there who don't give a damn about cars and who are mostly practical about what they chose. My uncle is a retired doctor. He and his wife have a 4-banger Accord and a Honda Fit. They "fight" over who gets to drive the Fit. Did they get these cars because that's what they can afford? A few months ago I saw his name on a donors list for a $25K donation he made to some art organization. Yeah, I think he could have stretched and reached into the exclusive world of 328s Or he just doesn't give a shhhit.
Very good point.
People who think everyone drives the most expensive car they can afford tend to be driving the most expensive car they can afford.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Most A4 drivers appear older aged with more income, and a lot of 3 drivers appear young and less affluent, so a lot more people stretch themselves to get a 3 or C, than getting an A4.
Audis are a little stealthier in that sense and may appeal more to a certain type of buyer who would rather not get noticed. But that may be slowly changing.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
This thread reeks of butthurt. I can't believe this is how "enthusiasts" think these days.

Completely clueless
Enthusiast driving slushtronics, bitching about nav screens, debating glossy versus matt trims, and drooling over electronic gadgets
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 12:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Enthusiast driving slushtronics, bitching about nav screens, debating glossy versus matt trims, and drooling over electronic gadgets
I drive a steptronic, would not by a car without a nav screen, heated seats, a good sound sytem, and a lot of other "gadgets" and I consider myself as much as an enthusiast as anyone here.

CA
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjboyd View Post
Just to flame the fire... Do you really think the average American KNOWS that an Audi is made by Volkswagen? Or for that matter, VW owns Porsche ...?
Close. That's how it was supposed to go down. But then Porsche pulled a brilliant flipedeedoo, the end result of which is that VW now owns a hair under 50% of Porsche (Porsche being a majority owner), while Porsche owns a hair over 50% of the voting rights in VAG! So Porsche really "owns" it all
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Sorry, you drive a Volkswagen so I can't talk to you.

BJ
I can't blame you. I would have done the same.
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Close. That's how it was supposed to go down. But then Porsche pulled a brilliant flipedeedoo, the end result of which is that VW now owns a hair under 50% of Porsche (Porsche being a majority owner), while Porsche owns a hair over 50% of the voting rights in VAG! So Porsche really "owns" it all


Porsche - Volkswagen
Porsche is a Stuttgart, Germany-based company. Volkswagen Group is a Wolfsberg, Germany-based company. Porsche owns about 45% of Volkswagen and is in the process of acquiring a majority share. The Porsche line is distinct but heavily involved with Volkswagen lines.

UPDATE: 2009.02: Porsche has acquired a majority share of Volkswagen in what will come to be considered a legendary financial coup in which it made billions of euros at the same it acquired the other company.

UPDATE 2009.11: Whoops! Porsche's enormous leverage crippled them when car sales bottomed out, and Volkswagen has now acquired them instead!
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
... they transcend the rest of us who need the sheetmetal to let others know how important we are.
I have found out that depends on your profession too. If you are a car/whatever salesman, you are just a salesman. But what if you are an incredible salesman? How do you show that off? You buy the car, the watch, and whatever else to prove to your colleagues what a successful and brilliant salesman you are. Now if you are a theoretical physicist doing R&D work at some company where most of your colleagues are physicists/engineers/mathematicians, none of them is going to think "wow, this guy made it" as you enter the parking lot in a 5 series. First, your car is the last thing that will impress them. More importantly, they have a good idea of the range of salaries everyone makes. So if you get a $60K car, they will view it as a personal choice. They may also wonder about other things, but they certainly won't draw any conclusion about your abilities as a scientist.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yes, with one slight exception. Last time I checked, the average American family income is $47,000 a year and those people are not driving new BMW's. I'm not sure what the definition of "poor" is, but let's say it's at 50% of the US average or an annual family income of $23,500 and those people are obviously not driving new BMW's either.
Unless they are driving used ones. All those lease returns are not going to the junk yard.

But there is another twist here. In many parts of the country, you can get a really nice 4-bedroom home for under $150K. The same house in a similar neighborhood will cost $500-700K in Southern California. So the guy making a decent salary of $70K in S.Cal. will have a hard time affording such a house. But he will have enough to drive a 328i, whereas the $150K home owner in say San Antonio will not be able, or will not find it wise to buy one, at least a new one.
kjboyd commented:
June 21, 2012, 2:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Close. That's how it was supposed to go down. But then Porsche pulled a brilliant flipedeedoo, the end result of which is that VW now owns a hair under 50% of Porsche (Porsche being a majority owner), while Porsche owns a hair over 50% of the voting rights in VAG! So Porsche really "owns" it all
Ok ok. But you get my point.
55 commented:
June 21, 2012, 5:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Sorry gentlemen, I gave my manservant the day off and he does my proofreading for me. Won't happen again, I assure you. He gets no more days off for the balance of the summer; even my socks were mismatched today, you have no idea how tough it was.

BJ
Had a good laugh first time in awhile. Thank you.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Bimmer App
boltjaM3s commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post

But there is another twist here. In many parts of the country, you can get a really nice 4-bedroom home for under $150K. The same house in a similar neighborhood will cost $500-700K in Southern California. So the guy making a decent salary of $70K in S.Cal. will have a hard time affording such a house. But he will have enough to drive a 328i, whereas the $150K home owner in say San Antonio will not be able, or will not find it wise to buy one, at least a new one.
Wow, what a 'twist' you've discovered.

No matter in SoCal or a cattle ranch, no one aspires to grow up, make it big, and drive an Audi. If people like them for their looks, their handling, or their value proposition that's just great. But they're not a BMW, they never will be a BMW, so comparing them to BMW is a waste of time.

Oh, and referring to $70K salaries as 'decent' and $500K houses as 'really nice' is so Audi of you.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I have found out that depends on your profession too. If you are a car/whatever salesman, you are just a salesman. But what if you are an incredible salesman? How do you show that off? You buy the car, the watch, and whatever else to prove to your colleagues what a successful and brilliant salesman you are. Now if you are a theoretical physicist doing R&D work at some company where most of your colleagues are physicists/engineers/mathematicians, none of them is going to think "wow, this guy made it" as you enter the parking lot in a 5 series. First, your car is the last thing that will impress them. More importantly, they have a good idea of the range of salaries everyone makes. So if you get a $60K car, they will view it as a personal choice. They may also wonder about other things, but they certainly won't draw any conclusion about your abilities as a scientist.
You're over-thinking this and missing the point.

It doesn't matter what you do or if you're truly successful or not. If you drive a BMW, wear a Rolex, style some Ray Ban's and some Ralph Lauren, and brag about your exotic vacations everyone will think you are wildly successful.

Like I said, BMW's get their kills standing still. I don't know what a 'slushbox' is. Neither do my jealous neighbors. We just know that a BMW makes us better than everyone else, especially Audi owners who go out of their way to tell us how unsuccessful they are.

BJ
windsor027 commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Which brings us to an even more important point. Many people don't by BMWs not because they can't afford them There are many people out there who don't give a damn about cars and who are mostly practical about what they chose. My uncle is a retired doctor. He and his wife have a 4-banger Accord and a Honda Fit. They "fight" over who gets to drive the Fit. Did they get these cars because that's what they can afford? A few months ago I saw his name on a donors list for a $25K donation he made to some art organization. Yeah, I think he could have stretched and reached into the exclusive world of 328s Or he just doesn't give a shhhit.
there are many many people like this and I applaud them because they will not buy a car for the status or said another way to solicit envy from others. I am the same way, only I love a well engineered car that I know will take care of my family in case of an accident or better yet a car that can prevent an accident because it has just a little better brakes, handling etc. Also I can't help love driving, that feeling of a car the communicating the road to me, the way I can downshift and hit the apex of a corner just right.

To me the 3-Series represents the best value/fun and practicality of all cars out there. If I didn't have my kids I would be in a Porsche, the Boxster S instead of the 911 because again best value/fun factor its better with the Boxster S. Since I could afford both, if I was a status guy i would be going for the 911. Lets face it how many of these status guys look at a Boxster or a Cayman and say, "this idiot can't afford a 911 so he got a glorified VW" LOL.
amancuso commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:33 am

I agree with dtc100, however once you add those packages to the 335, the price skyrockets and the S4 becomes the winner again. I've said it before and I'll say it again, BMWs are too expensive.
windsor027 commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by amancuso View Post
I agree with dtc100, however once you add those packages to the 335, the price skyrockets and the S4 becomes the winner again. I've said it before and I'll say it again, BMWs are too expensive.
Not if you are leasing. I think current residual for BMW with 12K miles per year is .64 while Audi is .58 I believe (I could be wrong, but I know its not over .6). that is a huge difference.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:17 am

Holy crap! This thread has drifted so far off topic, I think it has fallen off the internet! Is it possible to discuss what this thread is supposed to be about; The comparison between the 335i and the S4, and the results of said comparison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No matter in SoCal or a cattle ranch, no one aspires to grow up, make it big, and drive an Audi.
Just because you don't aspire to own an Audi, please don't pretend you know how everyone else feels. The fact that I aspire to own an Audi immediately discredits you. So enjoy driving your BMW, delusional in thinking that everyone who sees you in your 3er is going to collapse in a jealous rage because they want to be the Most Important Man In The World too.

Oh, and just to put this out there: Most of the "average people" I know, my friends who only view cars as transportation appliances, don't take any notice of BMWs or any other brand out there. To the average person, they are just another car.



So... back to the subject at hand: Did the BMW lose this comparison because it is trying to cater to the mass market and has lost its enthusiast roots? Or has the Audi just surpassed a target that instead of innovating, has instead stayed still?
voip-ninja commented:
June 21, 2012, 11:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Not if you are leasing. I think current residual for BMW with 12K miles per year is .64 while Audi is .58 I believe (I could be wrong, but I know its not over .6). that is a huge difference.
The price differences between the two, even well optioned are very close on a monthly lease payment, as I just did the math between choosing an S4 and a 335i.

However, I was able to option the 335i up to a point (AWD, M-sport, tech package, parking package) that it left the S4 in the dust price wise.

You should be able to lease either an S4 with navigation or a 335i with leather and tech for about $600-650 per month before tax, which is pretty reasonable. At this price range though the S4 will have all of the performance goodies and the 335i won't. The S4 engine also makes noticeably more power, which is why I expect we will see a 340i rolling out this time next year.
windsor027 commented:
June 21, 2012, 11:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
So... back to the subject at hand: Did the BMW lose this comparison because it is trying to cater to the mass market and has lost its enthusiast roots? Or has the Audi just surpassed a target that instead of innovating, has instead stayed still?
Honestly I didn't think it was a 100% fair comparison.

First it seems the S4 had the performance setup with the torque differential converter and the all important performance tires. At the very least they should have tested the 335i with performance tires, we all know it makes all the difference in the word, especially in braking and handling performance. Also since the S4 had the torque upgrade why didn't they have the M adaptive suspension for the BMW? 10mm lower, and when I test drove one I found it more responsive than the standard sport.

Would those two points been enough? I don't know but it would have made a difference for sure.

Now I do maintain that BMW dropped the ball with the 335i. they would have upped the HP and torque for it since the 328i had such a jump in performance and we all know from the tuning world that engine would certainly handle 20-40 more HP and another 30 lbs of torque without even trying. its at 9 psi man that is nothing. and I bet you anything they will do it in 2014 model year.
SuperTerp commented:
June 21, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by amancuso View Post
I agree with dtc100, however once you add those packages to the 335, the price skyrockets and the S4 becomes the winner again. I've said it before and I'll say it again, BMWs are too expensive.
What!?!
2012 f30 modern line every option selected $57020
2012 335ix coupeM with everything selected is $60700

Prestige Audi S4 $55400
Audi drive select w/ Sports differential$ 3,950
Carbon fiber decorative inlays$ 500
Rear side airbags*$ 350
Silk Nappa leather upholstery$ 1,000

$62075 *without ACC

lmao doesn't look more expensive to me.
dtc100 commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
What!?!
2012 f30 modern line every option selected $57020
2012 335ix coupeM with everything selected is $60700

Prestige Audi S4 $55400
Audi drive select w/ Sports differential$ 3,950
Carbon fiber decorative inlays$ 500
Rear side airbags*$ 350
Silk Nappa leather upholstery$ 1,000

$62075 *without ACC

lmao doesn't look more expensive to me.
Audi's "Premium Plus" trims are usually of much better value than the "Prestige" trims. But hey maybe Audi is out to prove BJ correct (or is it to prove him wrong?), people will pay more for Audi prestige, even if it is lesser value.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post

Just because you don't aspire to own an Audi, please don't pretend you know how everyone else feels. The fact that I aspire to own an Audi immediately discredits you.
Read what you just wrote.

You just admitted that you don't care about status and thus that's the reason that you aspire to drive an Audi. You and I are saying the same thing. Those who don't care about living a successful life and don't have the drive to make it big are exactly Audi's key demographic. Someone who discredits BMW because they can't have one for the reason it was intended. You might as well just get the Passat so you can really show your neighbors how little you care about yourself.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Read what you just wrote.

You just admitted that you don't care about status and thus that's the reason that you aspire to drive an Audi. You and I are saying the same thing. Those who don't care about living a successful life and don't have the drive to make it big are exactly Audi's key demographic. Someone who discredits BMW because they can't have one for the reason it was intended. You might as well just get the Passat so you can really show your neighbors how little you care about yourself.

BJ
That also describes me perfectly as I am seriously considering getting an Audi. I have no desire whatsoever to live a sucessful life or make it big and therefore the perceived status of a BMW means nothing to me.
rdollie commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:34 pm

Hard to tell when you are and aren't serious so keep that in perspective with this reply...

If you are serious I suggest you move out of SoCal ASAP. I can't tell you where the 'real world' is exactly but I can tell you that the furthest point from it is in SoCal! This is why I left after a few years before my son got infected with the shallowness which knows no end.
The popular saying when I lived there was that SoCal is the place where people buy things they don't need with money they don't have to impress people they don't like! If your post was serious you're simply reinforcing the concept - get out now


Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You're over-thinking this and missing the point.

It doesn't matter what you do or if you're truly successful or not. If you drive a BMW, wear a Rolex, style some Ray Ban's and some Ralph Lauren, and brag about your exotic vacations everyone will think you are wildly successful.

Like I said, BMW's get their kills standing still. I don't know what a 'slushbox' is. Neither do my jealous neighbors. We just know that a BMW makes us better than everyone else, especially Audi owners who go out of their way to tell us how unsuccessful they are.

BJ
The X Men commented:
June 21, 2012, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We just know that a BMW makes us better than everyone else.

BJ
You need professional help if you think a car can help with your short comings.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 21, 2012, 2:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Honestly I didn't think it was a 100% fair comparison.

...At the very least they should have tested the 335i with performance tires, we all know it makes all the difference in the word, especially in braking and handling performance.
Well, any good automotive journalist is going to compare cars as they are sold to the general public, not one-offs or modified in any way. If BMW sells the car with eco-friendly all-seasons, then that's what gets tested. Audi chose to keep the sporty aspects of the car with the diff and tires, increased power, etc. And it won them the battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You just admitted that you don't care about status and thus that's the reason that you aspire to drive an Audi. You and I are saying the same thing. Those who don't care about living a successful life and don't have the drive to make it big are exactly Audi's key demographic. Someone who discredits BMW because they can't have one for the reason it was intended. You might as well just get the Passat so you can really show your neighbors how little you care about yourself.
Of course I care about status... along with how a car looks, how fun it is to drive, and many other factors. I view BMW and Audi both as "Premium" cars. Right along with Cadillac, Lexus, Infinity, and others. Just because you don't consider anything without a Roundel on the hood to be Premium, doesn't mean others think the same way that you do. In fact, the mainstream automotive press all agree that all those brands, including Audi are Premium cars. Even the hosts of Top Gear have recently given MORE grief to Audi owners for being arrogant, self-gratifying prestige-whores than BMW owners!

So looks like you're not keeping up with the Joneses, and all the superior Audi owners will be looking down their noses at your pathetic BMW driving wanna-be butt! Better trade up to an Audi if you want to remain the Most Important Person In The World.

Here I am defending a brand I have never owned from BJ. Though I do have an M3, which by BJ's rules make me 2 steps more important than him. Oh, and my VW Passat, which I only drive when I want to blend in with the unwashed masses!

(Sarcastic humor most definitely intended...)
windsor027 commented:
June 21, 2012, 2:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Well, any good automotive journalist is going to compare cars as they are sold to the general public, not one-offs or modified in any way. If BMW sells the car with eco-friendly all-seasons, then that's what gets tested. Audi chose to keep the sporty aspects of the car with the diff and tires, increased power, etc. And it won them the battle.
I believe you can order summer high performance tires on the 2013 don't know about the 2012 335i. Also note they didn't test the sport with the M adaptive suspension which can also be ordered. Got to do Apples to Apples dude.
dtc100 commented:
June 21, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Well, any good automotive journalist is going to compare cars as they are sold to the general public, not one-offs or modified in any way. If BMW sells the car with eco-friendly all-seasons, then that's what gets tested. Audi chose to keep the sporty aspects of the car with the diff and tires, increased power, etc. And it won them the battle...
Diff is not a standard option on S4 but he chose to have it, at a minimum compare it to the sportline with performance tires.
The X Men commented:
June 21, 2012, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Diff is not a standard option on S4 but he chose to have it, at a minimum compare it to the sportline with performance tires.
Chances are, these guys dont get to pick and choose options, they get what BMW and Audi send them.
Stanislav commented:
June 21, 2012, 4:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No one ever says "Oooh, I hate that guy. He drives and Audi." BMW, different story. They write movies about people like us and the cars we ride. Audi? Take a Jetta, throw on some badges, boom, there's your Audi.

Cadillac is a Chevy, not fooling anyone there either. Acura to Honda, it goes on and on. These wannabe "luxury" cars are engineered first and foremost as budget cars for Mr. & Mrs. $47,000 A Year. Then, as a secondary concept, they are re-badged into faux luxury cars for people who don't know any better.

Back when I was a young lad making no coin I drove a beater Honda, couldn't wait to afford an Acura. Driving in it, only took a few days to realize it was no BMW, made no heads turn, made no friends jealous. Instead of being viewed as Mr. Rich Guy, instead I was viewed as Mr. Frugal, got major props for not spending more to "get the BMW".

It's how it works in the real world. Visit it sometime.

BJ
This poser is hilarious! I mean, really??!?! Don't know where he lives, but here in LA, nobody is thinking - wow, this guys drive a BMW, he is making serious coin!! LOL Here bimmers are as common as civics.

I am always amused by those who buy the cheapest BMW (a 4 door 328) and now they are on top of the world looking down to the "poor" "wannabies" who drive Infiniti, Audi and Acura. Really!?!
dsackman commented:
June 21, 2012, 7:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
This poser is hilarious! I mean, really??!?! Don't know where he lives, but here in LA, nobody is thinking - wow, this guys drive a BMW, he is making serious coin!! LOL Here bimmers are as common as civics.

I am always amused by those who buy the cheapest BMW (a 4 door 328) and now they are on top of the world looking down to the "poor" "wannabies" who drive Infiniti, Audi and Acura. Really!?!

I bought a 328 (2012) to replace an A4 (2009 - wife's car) to reduce cost - 328 was cheaper for similar appointments. Now I see why the 328 is cheaper - not quite up to the A4 quality standards and my wife is p'd with me because I changed her car. Anyway, in a few years time I will change back again.

The 328 is closer to the VW GTI I had a few years back, than to the A4. I now understand why the Europeans aspire to Audi, rather than BMW. As you said, Bimmers are 10 a penny here in SoCal.


.
SuperTerp commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsackman View Post
As you said, Bimmers are 10 a penny here in SoCal.
Thats cause their dealers aren't as crappy, and they have better lease rates
johnc_22 commented:
June 21, 2012, 8:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsackman View Post
I bought a 328 (2012) to replace an A4 (2009 - wife's car) to reduce cost - 328 was cheaper for similar appointments. Now I see why the 328 is cheaper - not quite up to the A4 quality standards and my wife is p'd with me because I changed her car. Anyway, in a few years time I will change back again.

The 328 is closer to the VW GTI I had a few years back, than to the A4. I now understand why the Europeans aspire to Audi, rather than BMW. As you said, Bimmers are 10 a penny here in SoCal.


.
Since this is an Audi vs BMW thread already, in what ways do you (or your wife) find the 328i inferior to the A4? Just curious since I like Audi's current designs a lot more than BMW's.
sf_loft commented:
June 21, 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
Since this is an Audi vs BMW thread already, in what ways do you (or your wife) find the 328i inferior to the A4? Just curious since I like Audi's current designs a lot more than BMW's.
My take is that the quality of materials are better. Plastics are softer to the touch and feel better. In the S4 you get silk nappa leather which is an option you get on the M3. Fit and finish over time. I had two e92 335's and 1-2 weeks from off the dealer's lot, you start to hear the squeaks and creaks. I had to either leave the rear center console door open or stuff it with something to make it quiet. The frameless doors causes the window to squeak against the rubber on cold days. Probably due to RFT's on the BMW, but rough surfaces are jarring and makes the interior noisy. You have to sit in any Audi to really feel what a "buttoned" down car feels like. Just feels tight when cruising, the fact that it is quiet and that everything feels securely put together. Hard to explain, but the solid build quality feeling. If you go to e90post, you'll see the fans talk about how they prefer the raw feeling of a BMW (cabin / wind / road noise) but that's not what I paid $50k for. I would be perfectly happy in a 370z if I wanted that.

With that said, I think that the F30 is taking the Audi approach of having a more comfortable and insulated ride.
dsackman commented:
June 21, 2012, 9:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
Since this is an Audi vs BMW thread already, in what ways do you (or your wife) find the 328i inferior to the A4? Just curious since I like Audi's current designs a lot more than BMW's.
Just a couple of things she mentioned:
  • The dimple on the hood after coming back from the cars wash. Sadly it is visible from the driver's seat.
  • The way that the seat memory buttons work and the ease of setting these inadvertantly by just pressing one button. It freaks her out if the seat is out of adjustment. It would upset me too since I paid some $3,000 to get that feature. Never happened on the Audi where you need to press two buttons simultaneously to set the seat position.
  • The aweful noise the sun visor makes when you return it. The roof liner appears to be made of cardboard.
  • Subjective feeling of a lack of "solidness". Maybe that is due to quattro vs rear-wheel drive or some other factor.
  • The interior trim (no lines aluminum), in her words, seems to come from a Camry or something similar compared to the aluminum trim in the Audi.
  • She is also concerned with the harshness of the tires on the LA freeways - quite noisy, so I will replace those with regular tires and an AAA membership - keeping a flat fix kit and pump in the car.

Nothing earth shattering in my mind, just observations from someone who is not a car nut and has no allegiances to marques. She now wants my Q5 and that is not going to happen.

Oh, just to add, we are both beyond the stage in our lives where we believe the car we drive makes a difference in our status in society.


.
sf_loft commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
This poser is hilarious! I mean, really??!?! Don't know where he lives, but here in LA, nobody is thinking - wow, this guys drive a BMW, he is making serious coin!! LOL Here bimmers are as common as civics.

I am always amused by those who buy the cheapest BMW (a 4 door 328) and now they are on top of the world looking down to the "poor" "wannabies" who drive Infiniti, Audi and Acura. Really!?!
Ya, I find that funny. Guys who ride around in a $400 leaser thinks that the Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, Audi, and any average car owner around them can't afford and envy BMW owners. I believe there's a word for that, insecurity.

People have different priorities in life and that's why you should never judge a book by its cover. People who buy $100k + cars are usually paying in cash or leasing at high monthly payments but have enough money to not care. The entry level luxury / premium car segment is the big grey area where you can't tell if someone makes coin or not.
sf_loft commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsackman View Post
Just a couple of things she mentioned:
  • The dimple on the hood after coming back from the cars wash. Sadly it is visible from the driver's seat.
  • The way that the seat memory buttons work and the ease of setting these inadvertantly by just pressing one button. It freaks her out if the seat is out of adjustment. It would upset me too since I paid some $3,000 to get that feature. Never happened on the Audi where you need to press two buttons simultaneously to set the seat position.
  • The aweful noise the sun visor makes when you return it. The roof liner appears to be made of cardboard.
  • Subjective feeling of a lack of "solidness". Maybe that is due to quattro vs rear-wheel drive or some other factor.
  • The interior trim (no lines aluminum), in her words, seems to come from a Camry or something similar compared to the aluminum trim in the Audi.
  • She is also concerned with the harshness of the tires on the LA freeways - quite noisy, so I will replace those with regular tires and an AAA membership - keeping a flat fix kit and pump in the car.

Nothing earth shattering in my mind, just observations from someone who is not a car nut and has no allegiances to marques. She now wants my Q5 and that is not going to happen.

Oh, just to add, we are both beyond the stage in our lives where we believe the car we drive makes a difference in our status in society.


.
If I have to give up my car for an SUV, the Q5 is probably my first choice, especially with the recently announced SQ5. The first S line Audi to have a TDI engine.

bayoucity commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
If I have to give up my car for an SUV, the Q5 is probably my first choice, especially with the recently announced SQ5. The first S line Audi to have a TDI engine.
sf, is SQ5 coming over here?
dsackman commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
If I have to give up my car for an SUV, the Q5 is probably my first choice, especially with the recently announced SQ5. The first S line Audi to have a TDI engine.

I would not call the Q5 an SUV at all. It has the same mechanics as the A4/A5, just a different body. It rides and drives like a car and even with the 2.0t motor is quite sporty. Much easier to get in and out, more room inside and a much more demanding driving position. A tad slower than the A4 and not quite as nimble around corners, but close.
I was told the upgraded 2013 model will get the 3.0T (supercharged) motor and that will probably make me replace the current one.


.
sf_loft commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
sf, is SQ5 coming over here?
No official date yet for U.S. sales but I'm assuming it will be after the new Q5 is out. In Europe it will be on sale Q1 of 2013.

Here's a video - sights & sounds. You will wonder how does a twin turbo V6 TDI make a V8 sound like that. It is the same sound you will get out of the 2013 S4 that is on sale now. Believe it or not, it's artificial. No, not artificial like how BMW has implemented it on the M5 where it is pumped through the stereo, Audi uses a specialized speaker mounted against the firewall between the engine and interior compartment to resonate the sound into the cabin. For the exhaust, sound waves that is matched to the engine is resonated through the actual exhaust. Bystanders will not know the difference and the car sounds terrific inside and out! You can enable and disable the "Dynamic" exhaust through the MMI interface. This is the future guys, no more flaps to flip. Engines are getting smaller and smaller for efficiency and you just can't generate the sound of a V8 from a 4 banger, 6 cyl, or a TDI engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqqizqCAczs

You will not hear the burbling sound from a natural engine, but I don't see why they can't randomize the resonance to add artificial engine impurity noises through. Auto manufacturers now are also trying to standardize on the artificial sound that electric vehicles should make. I love German engineering. Artificial exhaust sound engineering goes to Audi on this one, the M5 is a lazy attempt by BMW.


Here's the S4 sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntzc2MRf7rQ&hd=1
sf_loft commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsackman View Post
I would not call the Q5 an SUV at all. It has the same mechanics as the A4/A5, just a different body. It rides and drives like a car and even with the 2.0t motor is quite sporty. Much easier to get in and out, more room inside and a much more demanding driving position. A tad slower than the A4 and not quite as nimble around corners, but close.
I was told the upgraded 2013 model will get the 3.0T (supercharged) motor and that will probably make me replace the current one.


.
The SQ5 is a TT V6 TDI. Audi's conservative numbers is 5.1s 0-60. If anything, the US bound SQ5 will probably get the 3.0T engine and not the TDI.
dtc100 commented:
June 21, 2012, 10:57 pm

I had recently test drove a loaded A4, my impression was, it felt less sporty than the A4 I drove two years ago, the steering was so light it felt off center all the time. The lumbar support was killing my back. Definitely was not more "buttoned down" than the F30.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Wow, what a 'twist' you've discovered.

No matter in SoCal or a cattle ranch, no one aspires to grow up, make it big, and drive an Audi.
I certainly hope that thee are still teenagers out there who are not "aspiring" to make it big to own whatever car, that there are still some who have big dreams that transcend material crap.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdollie View Post
Hard to tell when you are and aren't serious so keep that in perspective with this reply...

If you are serious I suggest you move out of SoCal ASAP. I can't tell you where the 'real world' is exactly but I can tell you that the furthest point from it is in SoCal! This is why I left after a few years before my son got infected with the shallowness which knows no end.
The popular saying when I lived there was that SoCal is the place where people buy things they don't need with money they don't have to impress people they don't like! If your post was serious you're simply reinforcing the concept - get out now
While that stereotype is true for a certain visible segment of the population, the Los Angeles area has well over 10 million people. Most do not fit those stereotypes.
dsackman commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
The SQ5 is a TT V6 TDI. Audi's conservative numbers is 5.1s 0-60. If anything, the US bound SQ5 will probably get the 3.0T engine and not the TDI.
Yip, all indications are that we will not get the diesel motor (at this stage) and the 3.0T model we most probably will be getting is a detuned version of the same motor that is in the S4/5 and the A6.

Here is a pretty good description of what is available for the upgraded Q5. Wwe will only get the 2.0T and 3.0T motors and there are no indications whether the 3.0T will be called the SQ5 or just Q5 - all just speculations: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_7704.shtml

This is what she could look like inside (actually the allroad with optional sports seats depicted here):


Where is that drool smiley?
.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsackman View Post
[*]She is also concerned with the harshness of the tires on the LA freeways - quite noisy, so I will replace those with regular tires and an AAA membership - keeping a flat fix kit and pump in the car.
Is there any room under the trunk lining to secure a compact spare tire?
boltjaM3s commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I certainly hope that thee are still teenagers out there who are not "aspiring" to make it big to own whatever car, that there are still some who have big dreams that transcend material crap.
Definitely. They are called pool cleaners.

BJ
dsackman commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Is there any room under the trunk lining to secure a compact spare tire?
In the 328, no.

The A4 has a spacesaver and the Q5 has an inflatable spare that is compressed, located under the trunk lining and the sub-woofer is in the center of the deflated spare. Quite nifty. The car comes with an air compressor to inflate the tire when needed. When you let the air out of the spare, the tire returns to its original shape.

No space for the flat tire and wheel though...

I carry a flat fix kit and extra air pump in the Q5 to fix the tire rather than using the spare.

.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 22, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post

Ya, I find that funny. Guys who ride around in a $400 leaser thinks that the Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, Audi, and any average car owner around them can't afford and envy BMW owners.
You find that funny because you are driving a rebadged Passat.

Please stop posting pics and videos of those nauseating Audi designs; lots of women and children frequent these boards, shouldn't be exposed to such atrocities.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
June 22, 2012, 1:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You find that funny because you are driving a rebadged Passat.

Please stop posting pics and videos of those nauseating Audi designs; lots of women and children frequent these boards, shouldn't be exposed to such atrocities.

BJ
Actually those seats look multifunctional, women can carry babies in those seats while walking the mall.
sf_loft commented:
June 22, 2012, 1:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You find that funny because you are driving a rebadged Passat.

Please stop posting pics and videos of those nauseating Audi designs; lots of women and children frequent these boards, shouldn't be exposed to such atrocities.

BJ
Ok I'll post non atrocious pics of BMW:









SuperTerp commented:
June 22, 2012, 8:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Ok I'll post non atrocious pics of BMW:
Beautiful!!! It’s like when a three year old finger paints for you.


If you think that’s atrocious you must kill kids for their artwork
crazyperson commented:
June 22, 2012, 8:59 am

BJ would make an awesome professional clown. Well, am assuming he'd look good covered in egg...

I mean the name is not kid appropriate ... but it is amazing he signs every rant with an innuendo
SunnyandRich commented:
June 22, 2012, 9:06 am

Amusing thread.

Ya'll are being owned by a professional, just don't know it yet.
The X Men commented:
June 22, 2012, 10:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
My take is that the quality of materials are better. Plastics are softer to the touch and feel better. In the S4 you get silk nappa leather which is an option you get on the M3. Fit and finish over time. I had two e92 335's and 1-2 weeks from off the dealer's lot, you start to hear the squeaks and creaks. I had to either leave the rear center console door open or stuff it with something to make it quiet. The frameless doors causes the window to squeak against the rubber on cold days. Probably due to RFT's on the BMW, but rough surfaces are jarring and makes the interior noisy. You have to sit in any Audi to really feel what a "buttoned" down car feels like. Just feels tight when cruising, the fact that it is quiet and that everything feels securely put together. Hard to explain, but the solid build quality feeling. If you go to e90post, you'll see the fans talk about how they prefer the raw feeling of a BMW (cabin / wind / road noise) but that's not what I paid $50k for. I would be perfectly happy in a 370z if I wanted that.

With that said, I think that the F30 is taking the Audi approach of having a more comfortable and insulated ride.
I must disagree with those statements, we had a Audi Q5, A4 and two A6 before we traded for our current 3 and 5 series. There are more rattles in the Audi, the material qulaity is about the same, BMW is better in some area and Audi better in other area. The built quality is better in the BMW, if you push on the Audi's interior panels, it gives a little bit and sometimes you hear some plastic crackling or squeak, not in the BMW. That is what give the BMW that solid tank like feel, Audi feels much lighter and not as solid. As far as highway noise, there is no comparision, the BMW is much quieter.
dtc100 commented:
June 22, 2012, 10:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyandRich View Post
Amusing thread.

Ya'll are being owned by a professional, just don't know it yet.
BJ always manages to attract Audi traffic and scams them into promoting BMW for a good show.

BTW, if one craves a tank-like solid but quiet ride, get an MB.
crazyperson commented:
June 22, 2012, 10:58 am

^^^ this is true. team Audi needs to realize that BJ = Fox News. He's not interested in the truth, he's interested in winning.
Just talk to him like you'd talk to a crazy person with no emotions and you'll be fine.
windsor027 commented:
June 22, 2012, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BJ always manages to attract Audi traffic and scams them into promoting BMW for a good show.

BTW, if one craves a tank-like solid but quiet ride, get an MB.
yea I thought that was great for a month. Then I started feeling old and now I feel like a smuck for getting one.
SuperTerp commented:
June 22, 2012, 11:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
yea I thought that was great for a month. Then I started feeling old and now I feel like a smuck for getting one.

Serves you right . My princess buttercup got me to Tyson's in 22(should take 40-1hr) minutes from down 270 this morning... I overselpt
The X Men commented:
June 22, 2012, 1:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BJ always manages to attract Audi traffic and scams them into promoting BMW for a good show.

BTW, if one craves a tank-like solid but quiet ride, get an MB.
I think BJ stands for BMW junky

I test drove the 2012 MB E350, in my opinion, the F10 is as solid if not more solid than the E350.
windsor027 commented:
June 22, 2012, 2:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Serves you right . My princess buttercup got me to Tyson's in 22(should take 40-1hr) minutes from down 270 this morning... I overselpt
I have to live in that jungle day in and day out. Another year or so before they finish the Metro.
dtc100 commented:
June 22, 2012, 3:16 pm

Tank like solid built is different than solid feel when you drive. The E350 is built literally solid like a tank. One time a salesperson, who was no less than 250 pounds, demonstrated this to me by opening the driver side door, climbing onto the door, pumping his belly a few times while hanging on there.

Would a BMW salesperson ever try that?
SuperTerp commented:
June 22, 2012, 7:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Would a BMW salesperson ever try that?
No. Not unless you wanted to be thrown into space from it's sheer power, and greatness. The doors are hand made from the boosters of advanced spaceships. All those ufos... BMW product testing.

True story, this is the internet you can't lie on it.

johnc_22 commented:
June 22, 2012, 9:53 pm

At 5+ years my E90 has a lot of creaks especially on bad pavement (Koni FSD's on order). I attribute some of the deterioration to the poor setup of the stock ZSP when combined RFT's - the car just basically shakes itself apart due to poor vibration damping. My concern with the F30 is if the car is not tank like when new, how will it be in 4-5 years (obviously if you lease this is a non issue)?
SunnyandRich commented:
June 22, 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BJ always manages to attract Audi traffic and scams them into promoting BMW for a good show.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 23, 2012, 8:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyperson View Post
^^^ this is true. team Audi needs to realize that BJ = Fox News. He's not interested in the truth, he's interested in winning.
Just talk to him like you'd talk to a crazy person with no emotions and you'll be fine.
"Team Audi"?

I like the sound of that. The New York Mets of the automotive world, posting in a Yankees forum. You have team t-shirts that say "Got Jetta?" too?

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 23, 2012, 10:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"Team Audi"?

I like the sound of that. The New York Mets of the automotive world, posting in a Yankees forum. You have team t-shirts that say "Got Jetta?" too?

BJ



Audi Yankees Club

Located in left field on the SAP Suite Level, the Audi Yankees Club features a cocktail bar and a dining lounge and offers sweeping views of Yankee Stadium. In keeping with the living museum that is Yankee Stadium, images of Yankees greats adorn the club as do Sony high-definition televisions. Performance-cooking stations, a dessert station and full cocktail service complete the gourmet dining experience.
bayoucity commented:
June 23, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
No. Not unless you wanted to be thrown into space from it's sheer power, and greatness. The doors are hand made from the boosters of advanced spaceships. All those ufos... BMW product testing.

True story, this is the internet you can't lie on it.

That true.

VW makes the best doors !

http://youtu.be/QATro4s-Kk8
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 23, 2012, 6:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
That true.

VW makes the best doors !
I wonder how the new American-made Passat and Jetta would pass this test. The new Passat is a LOT BIGGER than mine and it has a bigger engine block (2.5L vs 1.8L), but it weighs about the same as my 2002. Sound insulation alone cannot explain the difference.
bmw325 commented:
June 23, 2012, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
How is that possible lmao, I see 2 cars with "R" shouldn't really count as a line if you've got two cars. R8 (which I wouldn't classify as really an Rline car) and TTRS.

10+ Amgs
6+ M4 for BMW

That is a what I'd consider a line. Now maybe they still sell RS cars overseas, but if it isn't where I'm driving I don't need to count it.
Yes they sell a full RS line overseas. I read an article that explained it. In the past audi's s line did compete with m and amg. They've sinced switched strategies and R badged models fill that place. Audi USA has been holding back on importing as many RS models cause they wanted to build the base brand up first. Another reason you don't see many older RS models is cause audis old philosophy was that RS models would be super rare and they'd only build one RS model at any given point.

Back to S4=335. Yes that's totally fair and in keeping how they're priced and positioned. Keep in mind that manufacturers try to make it hard to directly compare models. So Audi is going for the sport angle..probably rightly so with the theory that people buying "the big engine" want a sportier ride. And by giving it a sub brand it makes them seem a little more exclusive. Arguably BMW does something similar with the msport line/ package.

Regardless I don't know why people get their panties in a twist about this stuff. If audi makes a better car, great, you can buy one. If not, that's great too if you like bmws. And the competition is great for us as consumers.
SuperTerp commented:
June 23, 2012, 8:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post

Regardless I don't know why people get their panties in a twist about this stuff. If audi makes a better car, great, you can buy one. If not, that's great too if you like bmws. And the competition is great for us as consumers.
Even if its a worse car people can buy it (which JD power just stuck them below industry average... BMW got top10 ), just be sure it's for you, and enjoy it.

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoram...170243393.html
Shrike commented:
June 24, 2012, 1:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
I'm curious to hear who here was a teenager in the 90's and saw BMW as their dream car.
Teenager in the 90's. 30 now. My dream car in high school was a manual Audi S8; reinforced by many viewings of Ronin. I had a poster of a 993 911 Turbo in my locker in high school as well.

In the Seattle area Audis and BMWs are viewed as "entry premium" cars. Lots of secretaries (oops executive admins) who probably make $60-70k per year drive base 3 series, probably on a $349/month lease deal. Neither brand is a status symbol as they're very affordable to pretty much any white collar worker with a few years of work experience. They are a commodity.

I'd even go as far as to argue that Lexus is a more desirable brand as among my generation, German cars have a stigma of being unreliable and undependable.
SuperTerp commented:
June 24, 2012, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post
In the Seattle area Audis and BMWs are viewed as "entry premium" cars. Lots of secretaries (oops executive admins) who probably make $60-70k per year drive base 3 series, probably on a $349/month lease deal. Neither brand is a status symbol as they're very affordable to pretty much any white collar worker with a few years of work experience. They are a commodity.
Maybe a 328... But that's a bit of a stretch, and probably because cost of living is nothing like the top counties in the US. I had a teacher in high school who had a z06, he had never had kids, or any kind of responsibilities except taking care of himself. Now based on that situation should I assume 70k+ is the proper starting point for any teachers transportation budget? If so I'll switch my major now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

In the Seattle area Audis and BMWs are viewed as "entry premium" cars..
I wish I knew that when I found out how much our 760 was
voip-ninja commented:
June 24, 2012, 3:57 pm

High school teacher with a master's degree can make 60's or 70's depending on where in the country they teach. Also, they get their summers off in most cases, and in many places have a fantastic pension plan.

For hearing about how teachers get the shaft, they seem to have a very good deal to me (and they should be getting those things but so should the rest of the "middle class" workers). Admittedly a starting out teacher, in many parts of the country can make high 20's to low 30's fresh out of college and in some cases might never break above about the $45K mark.
Shrike commented:
June 24, 2012, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I wish I knew that when I found out how much our 760 was
True. But for every 760 I see around here, I see 20 or 30 base 328i cars that pretty much have the automatic transmission as the only option. That's "BMW" to most people.
SuperTerp commented:
June 24, 2012, 5:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post
True. But for every 760 I see around here, I see 20 or 30 base 328i cars that pretty much have the automatic transmission as the only option. That's "BMW" to most people.
Same here 328's are a dime a dozen lol But my guess is thats more people wanting to be associated with the brand and isn't indicative of the quality across the lines (328 included).
boltjaM3s commented:
June 24, 2012, 11:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Same here 328's are a dime a dozen lol But my guess is thats more people wanting to be associated with the brand and isn't indicative of the quality across the lines (328 included).
328i's are "dime a dozen" in neighborhoods where the top 2% of all American earners live. I live in one, you do too.

But we drive our cars to go places, places outside our wealthy little enclaves, and that's where the power of the BMW brand works its magic. Stop driving your BMW so aggressively. Slow down. Watch how others watch your car. Drive slowly in a WalMart parking lot. Park for a few minutes at a Salvation Army. Drive around the back of a school as the janitors are leaving for the day. Wait at a bus stop and look at the sad faces in the big windows.

BMW. The Ultimate Status Machine.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 24, 2012, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I see 20 or 30 base 328i cars that pretty much have the automatic transmission as the only option. That's "BMW" to most people.
We drive in a country with top speed limits of 65, spend most of our time between red lights in 25 MPH zones. Ever use your onboard computer? Check out the lifetime MPH average on your ride. It's about 36 MPH. You've got the whole BMW thing upside down. You buy yourself a nice lightweight, modded high HP Honda to drive like a speedy maniac. You drive a cushy, luxurious, low HP BMW s-l-o-w-l-y so you can stare others in the eyes as they turn green with envy.

Don't fight it; embrace the stereotype.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 24, 2012, 11:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
But we drive our cars to go places, places outside our wealthy little enclaves, and that's where the power of the BMW brand works its magic. Stop driving your BMW so aggressively. Slow down. Watch how others watch your car. Drive slowly in a WalMart parking lot. Park for a few minutes at a Salvation Army. Drive around the back of a school as the janitors are leaving for the day. Wait at a bus stop and look at the sad faces in the big windows.
So that's how you spend your free time.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 24, 2012, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
So that's how you spend your free time.
Precisely.

If I cared about performance I'd buy a $19,000 Civic and add $31,000 in street mods and create a rocket that handles like a slotcar.

BMW's are made to be seen, not driven. That's why Audi can't compete.

BJ
SuperTerp commented:
June 25, 2012, 6:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
. Drive slowly in a WalMart parking lot. Park for a few minutes at a Salvation Army. Drive around the back of a school as the janitors are leaving for the day. Wait at a bus stop and look at the sad faces in the big windows.

BMW. The Ultimate Status Machine.

BJ
lol you are too much. But I haven't been in a wal-mart parking lot since 05
nickXi commented:
June 25, 2012, 10:36 am

Apologies for the interruption, but did anyone answer the question about the 131ft sopping distance?
I test drove a 335 a few days ago and all was great, except when i hit the brakes, there was a noticable delay. To the 'where are the brakes?!', the CA explained that this is likely from the regenerative breaking. The car was in the sportiest setting (8sp auto, manual mode).
Anyone else had similar experience?
dtc100 commented:
June 25, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol you are too much. But I haven't been in a wal-mart parking lot since 05
Do you realize you have again made BJ's point? The reason you can't see his point is that you have made it, and forgot where you came from.
dtc100 commented:
June 25, 2012, 10:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Maybe a 328... But that's a bit of a stretch, and probably because cost of living is nothing like the top counties in the US. I had a teacher in high school who had a z06, he had never had kids, or any kind of responsibilities except taking care of himself. Now based on that situation should I assume 70k+ is the proper starting point for any teachers transportation budget? If so I'll switch my major now



I wish I knew that when I found out how much our 760 was
I think one thing many of us have realized is, not having kids will allow you to reach your status goals much sooner and easier. Often times not having a GF helps too.

The Civic/Cruze/Corolla forums are full of ex-Bimmers/MBers, who now have to support their ex-wives and children.
cheikh82 commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:06 am

I'm dead broke and do not have a job but still drive bmw's. I don't know how I do it.
windsor027 commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol you are too much. But I haven't been in a wal-mart parking lot since 05
Shame on you for actually being in a Waltmart parking lot, EVER.
windsor027 commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickXi View Post
Apologies for the interruption, but did anyone answer the question about the 131ft sopping distance?
I test drove a 335 a few days ago and all was great, except when i hit the brakes, there was a noticable delay. To the 'where are the brakes?!', the CA explained that this is likely from the regenerative breaking. The car was in the sportiest setting (8sp auto, manual mode).
Anyone else had similar experience?
Didn't notice any issues with teh brakes when I test drove two 335i (one being sport and the other luxury) and a 328i. My guess is they got this distance because of the all weather tires. it make a world of difference. Also as i stated early in this thread the brakes on their test car may have had an issue, 131 feet to me is way too much. Not one revewer from a magazine or otherwise has mentioned brake issues.
voip-ninja commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:40 am

I'm not sure if that's true, I believe either motor trend of C&D complained about the brake feel on the F30 they drove having a slightly spongy feel and not having the firm, commanding brake performance they normally expect from a BMW.
voip-ninja commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I think one thing many of us have realized is, not having kids will allow you to reach your status goals much sooner and easier. Often times not having a GF helps too.

The Civic/Cruze/Corolla forums are full of ex-Bimmers/MBers, who now have to support their ex-wives and children.
Well, personally I find that a wife (can't say about kids) makes life far more fulfilling then driving a nice car... but I'll find that 40 or 50 something year old guy driving a really nice car and crying in his beer alone and see if I'm wrong about that.
frowningdeity commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
But we drive our cars to go places, places outside our wealthy little enclaves, and that's where the power of the BMW brand works its magic. Stop driving your BMW so aggressively. Slow down. Watch how others watch your car. Drive slowly in a WalMart parking lot. Park for a few minutes at a Salvation Army. Drive around the back of a school as the janitors are leaving for the day. Wait at a bus stop and look at the sad faces in the big windows.
pure. awesome.

need to add the orphanage. be sure to have a puppy in the front seat and a robot in the back. what else do kids like? maybe the robot can be made of candy.
windsor027 commented:
June 25, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I'm not sure if that's true, I believe either motor trend of C&D complained about the brake feel on the F30 they drove having a slightly spongy feel and not having the firm, commanding brake performance they normally expect from a BMW.
spongy feel is one thing, 60-0 in 131 feet is another.
Inline Sixer commented:
June 25, 2012, 1:49 pm

You guys won't believe today. I thought I had ordered my personal butler to the kitchen to get some fondue and champagne ready for dinner, at the time I headed upstairs to my closet for a post-polo match shower. This is when I catch my butler wearing my favorite rolex and tailored armani suit! Before I could even scold him, he bursts into tears, exclaiming all he ever secretly wanted was to be just like me. I send him off after telling him to remove the watch and my clothes immediately. The nerve. I pull out some alcohol wipes, try to clean the rolex vigorously, and immediately dump the suits into the drycleaning chute by my two fingers protected by the same wipes. Sigh. I thought I was having a bad day, when I came across this hilarious thread. I haven't had a laugh in a good long while given all my troubles. It sure cheered me up as I wasn't looking forward to the long flight in my private jet first thing tomorrow.
mdsbuc commented:
June 25, 2012, 2:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inline Sixer View Post
You guys won't believe today. I thought I had ordered my personal butler to the kitchen to get some fondue and champagne ready for dinner, at the time I headed upstairs to my closet for a post-polo match shower. This is when I catch my butler wearing my favorite rolex and tailored armani suit! Before I could even scold him, he bursts into tears, exclaiming all he ever secretly wanted was to be just like me. I send him off after telling him to remove the watch and my clothes immediately. The nerve. I pull out some alcohol wipes, try to clean the rolex vigorously, and immediately dump the suits into the drycleaning chute by my two fingers protected by the same wipes. Sigh. I thought I was having a bad day, when I came across this hilarious thread. I haven't had a laugh in a good long while given all my troubles. It sure cheered me up as I wasn't looking forward to the long flight in my private jet first thing tomorrow.
Poor, poor man. I believe I can truly empathize with your troubling situation. Why just last week I had to dismiss my driver of 14 years! I believe the dear fellow was trying to pinch my genuine Roundel BMW valve stem caps from my beloved 328i!!!!! It is so difficult to find good help these days...
voip-ninja commented:
June 25, 2012, 2:05 pm

Did you also find him trying to treat your genuine BMW leatherette with leather cleaner? The audacity!

LOL, this thread is officially off the rails, but making for a very humorous Monday nonetheless.
windsor027 commented:
June 25, 2012, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Did you also find him trying to treat your genuine BMW leatherette with leather cleaner? The audacity!

LOL, this thread is officially off the rails, but making for a very humorous Monday nonetheless.
LMAO. It’s worse than that VOIP. He also used the regular Armor All to shine the 17 inch tires. Good thing the Weatherby shotguns were locked up or else.
captainaudio commented:
June 25, 2012, 2:27 pm

I found that by paying the help well enough so that they could afford to lease 328s they were more geared to using the proper products and techniques when caring for my cars.

The Holiday Bonus Rolexes I gave out also helped.

The down.side is that it gave a couple of them delusions of grandeur.

CA
SuperTerp commented:
June 25, 2012, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Did you also find him trying to treat your genuine BMW leatherette with leather cleaner? The audacity!

LOL, this thread is officially off the rails, but making for a very humorous Monday nonetheless.
I know all to well of the struggles of finding good help . My driver found my bmw usb fob and kept trying to start the car, finally breaking the ignition . Upon being questioned he confessed he didn't care for the money toilet paper rolls, or gold boullion all over the house... He just wanted to drive the greatest car ever invented, The 335i.

my poor custom built bmw approved usb flash drive
kevins950 commented:
June 25, 2012, 4:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheikh82 View Post
I'm dead broke and do not have a job but still drive bmw's. I don't know how I do it.
Sugar mama?
nickXi commented:
June 26, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Didn't notice any issues with teh brakes when I test drove two 335i (one being sport and the other luxury) and a 328i. My guess is they got this distance because of the all weather tires. it make a world of difference. Also as i stated early in this thread the brakes on their test car may have had an issue, 131 feet to me is way too much. Not one revewer from a magazine or otherwise has mentioned brake issues.
Highly doubt it's the tires. The difference between my winter and summer setup isn't nearly as much as 2011 vs 2012. The immediacy of the braking action is somehow lost.
AutoUnion commented:
June 26, 2012, 8:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol you are too much. But I haven't been in a wal-mart parking lot since 05
Last time I took my BMW to a walmart parking lot, some asshole backed into the front of it
windsor027 commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickXi View Post
Highly doubt it's the tires. The difference between my winter and summer setup isn't nearly as much as 2011 vs 2012. The immediacy of the braking action is somehow lost.
And yet this testers got 60-0 in 109 feet, and 0-60 in 4.7 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLZA83XfIyI

Again to me this was not an Apples to Apples test. if you put the optional diff on the Audi why not have the optional adaptive suspension on the BMW? Lowers the car 10mm, can manually setup the dampers etc, that would have made things in the slalom closure. And yes i do have a major issue with all weather tires on a sport sedan but since BMW chose to put those puppies on the their 2012 335i as std the tester had to go with them. For 2013 BMW gives you a no cost option summer or all season. On my build I specified summer tires (will be getting wheels and tires for the winter months). So I love to see the 2013 S4 with its differential go up against a summer tire and adaptive suspension Sport Line 335i.

Another point being made below the Audi is over 400 lbs heavier and yet faster to 100km/h by .3 seconds and yet this guy give it to the 335i.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=676638

Anyway its all subjective at this point they are both great cars. Personally cost no option I like the look and feel of the 335i better.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:32 am

Regarding the braking: I know that most journalists get loaners from the manufacturer press fleets, and a lot of times those cars are beat to heck. It's quite possible that the brakes on the tested 335i were just shot after far too many abusive drivers.
AutoUnion commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Regarding the braking: I know that most journalists get loaners from the manufacturer press fleets, and a lot of times those cars are beat to heck. It's quite possible that the brakes on the tested 335i were just shot after far too many abusive drivers.
Does that mean that the Audis holds up better to abuse because both of the cars are from the fleet. Not to mention, Audi didn't even give them the face lifted B8.5. It was the B8, which is older. And it still beat BMW
voip-ninja commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:52 am

AFAIK, the 8.5 mid-cycle refresh of the A4 has no performance related improvements that would have affected this comparison. As far as the idea that the BMW was a crippled loaner, it's just not likely, manufacturers are pretty serious about this stuff and I'm sure that these cars get some kind of look over between being loaned out. Not to mention that these drivers are professionals, drive tons of cars and would certainly observe if the car had some kind of mechanical failure.

Can't we just be adults and admit that BMW lost this round? It seems like there's a lot of excuse making by people who can't handle the thought of BMW losing a performance shootout.
AutoUnion commented:
June 26, 2012, 10:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
AFAIK, the 8.5 mid-cycle refresh of the A4 has no performance related improvements that would have affected this comparison. As far as the idea that the BMW was a crippled loaner, it's just not likely, manufacturers are pretty serious about this stuff and I'm sure that these cars get some kind of look over between being loaned out. Not to mention that these drivers are professionals, drive tons of cars and would certainly observe if the car had some kind of mechanical failure.
B8.5's only difference is that Audi has switched to EPS and has gotten rid of the old Hydraulic system.

Quote:

Can't we just be adults and admit that BMW lost this round? It seems like there's a lot of excuse making by people who can't handle the thought of BMW losing a performance shootout.
This. For example, the F10 has been consistently loosing comparos since it came out. Hell, the last gen Audi A6 beat it in a comparo. BMW has its guard down right now and everyone is catching up.
The X Men commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:15 am

What if we chip the F30, and put some extra wide summer tires on it, I bet it can beat the S4 then. While we are at it, lets add some nitrous and a K&N air filter Last but not least, add the M-sport badge.
AutoUnion commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
What if we chip the F30, and put some extra wide summer tires on it, I bet it can beat the S4 then. While we are at it, lets add some nitrous and a K&N air filter Last but not least, add the M-sport badge.
And we could chip the S4 and it would still own the 335i
voip-ninja commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:49 am

Well, if it's any consolation, the 328i still beat the competition in all the magazine shootouts so far, even if it is slower through the slalom and has a lower skidpad than the A4.
OBS3SSION commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Does that mean that the Audis holds up better to abuse because both of the cars are from the fleet. Not to mention, Audi didn't even give them the face lifted B8.5. It was the B8, which is older. And it still beat BMW
Well, my point was that the BMW could have had an issue and the Audi did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Can't we just be adults and admit that BMW lost this round? It seems like there's a lot of excuse making by people who can't handle the thought of BMW losing a performance shootout.
Oh, I'm not trying to make excuses. I think it's great that the Audi won this comparo. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. Especially with the braking... since the BMW seemed to be way outside its bounds, when other publications have gotten "normal" numbers from the same car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
And we could chip the S4 and it would still own the 335i
Let's drop both cars out the back of a cargo plane and I'll bet they do identical times! And stopping distance!
The X Men commented:
June 26, 2012, 1:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, if it's any consolation, the 328i still beat the competition in all the magazine shootouts so far, even if it is slower through the slalom and has a lower skidpad than the A4.
In my opinion, the 3 series is still the bench mark of this segment, no matter what the comparo results are. The gap is not as big as it use to be, I remember in the old days when most people automatically think 3 series when they are shopping for a small sport luxury sedan, now a days, the choice is not so clear.
windsor027 commented:
June 26, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In my opinion, the 3 series is still the bench mark of this segment, no matter what the comparo results are. The gap is not as big as it use to be, I remember in the old days when most people automatically think 3 series when they are shopping for a small sport luxury sedan, now a days, the choice is not so clear.
Its funny how we got our panties twisted over this guy's conclusion. I post two different comparison tests with the same cars that picked the 335i. The bottom line is the Audi is still over 400 lbs heavier and no one can tell me this doesn't show up in driving feel. Look at the weight distribution also, the Audi is a lot more front bias.
UnderSteer commented:
June 26, 2012, 3:06 pm

This has been going on on this forum for years. A review or comparison that favors BMW is taken as conclusive proof of the superiority of BMW. A review or comparison that favors the competition is taken as conclusive proof of the bias and incompetence of the reviewer.
dtc100 commented:
June 26, 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
This has been going on on this forum for years. A review or comparison that favors BMW is taken as conclusive proof of the superiority of BMW. A review or comparison that favors the competition is taken as conclusive proof of the bias and incompetence of the reviewer.
Your conclusion is just as false as the conclusions you railed against.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 26, 2012, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your conclusion is just as false as the conclusions you railed against.
How about this for a conclusion:

Both the Audi and the BMW's in question are $50,000 luxury cars whose target buyer is a 47 year old male making $100K, paying his $500 lease payment in an attempt to keep up with the Joneses in the corporate parking lot and the pool club.

There was a time in the early 60's where 25 year old baby boomers were buying true sports cars out of Europe. Lightweight, powerful, trackable cars that made mom's Pontiac Catalina look fat and bloated. Those kids bought enthusiast magazines like Road & Track and Car & Driver and a publishing industry was born.

Flash-forward 50 years and the magazines thrive off of a myth that today's fat and bloated German luxury cars are trackable and powerful, refined driving enthusiasts machines. It's all BS. It's mom's Pontiac Catalina all over again.

Enthusiast magazines and their "track tests" are laughable. Ignore them. Just enjoy the drive to the country club and move on.

BJ
UnderSteer commented:
June 26, 2012, 6:10 pm

As soon as you take delivery of your new BMW be sure to post a picture of it parked next to all the other 328s at your country club.

I would do the same except I don't belong to a country club.
windsor027 commented:
June 26, 2012, 6:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
As soon as you take delivery of your new BMW be sure to post a picture of it parked next to all the other 328s at your country club.

I would do the same except I don't belong to a country club.
you should have done what BJ did and order a base 328i without a single option. Then you would have had money to pay for the country club. Live and learn.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 26, 2012, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
you should have done what BJ did and order a base 328i without a single option. Then you would have had money to pay for the country club. Live and learn.
My first 328i featured the $9,000 convertible hardtop option.

My second 328i featured the $6,000 ///M-Sport option.

My third 328i will be a fully loaded Luxury line.

Country club, included.

BJ
windsor027 commented:
June 26, 2012, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My first 328i featured the $9,000 convertible hardtop option.

My second 328i featured the $6,000 ///M-Sport option.

My third 328i will be a fully loaded Luxury line.

Country club, included.

BJ
Seriously BJ I am humbled just to be allowed to post in the same forum you do.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Seriously BJ I am humbled just to be allowed to post in the same forum you do.
While I would be thanking most drivers for saying that, you drive a Mercedes Benz which has more status than a BMW so I, sir, are honored just to be allowed to post back to you.

BMW is your Audi. I'm humbled that you would even want to talk to me.

BJ
mdsbuc commented:
June 26, 2012, 9:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
While I would be thanking most drivers for saying that, you drive a Mercedes Benz which has more status than a BMW so I, sir, are honored just to be allowed to post back to you.

BMW is your Audi. I'm humbled that you would even want to talk to me.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
June 26, 2012, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
Yeah, MB C class definitely is not viewed as more prestigious than the 3er. In fact a C class is said to satisfy those underachievers who like to think they have made it.
captainaudio commented:
June 26, 2012, 10:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yeah, MB C class definitely is not viewed as more prestigious than the 3er. In fact a C class is said to satisfy those underachievers who like to think they have made it.
Good to know. Sounds like a good car for me.
beden1 commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
How about this for a conclusion:

Both the Audi and the BMW's in question are $50,000 luxury cars whose target buyer is a 47 year old male making $100K, paying his $500 lease payment in an attempt to keep up with the Joneses in the corporate parking lot and the pool club.

There was a time in the early 60's where 25 year old baby boomers were buying true sports cars out of Europe. Lightweight, powerful, trackable cars that made mom's Pontiac Catalina look fat and bloated. Those kids bought enthusiast magazines like Road & Track and Car & Driver and a publishing industry was born.

Flash-forward 50 years and the magazines thrive off of a myth that today's fat and bloated German luxury cars are trackable and powerful, refined driving enthusiasts machines. It's all BS. It's mom's Pontiac Catalina all over again.

Enthusiast magazines and their "track tests" are laughable. Ignore them. Just enjoy the drive to the country club and move on.

BJ
Now, this I agree with!
dtc100 commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Good to know. Sounds like a good car for me.
You are correct sir, occasionally the C class is also for those who have it all, and are too stretched because they have to make payments on multiple million-dollar homes, a Ferrari, two Porsches, a jet and a yacht, that they have to settle for a C250 as their daily beater.
captainaudio commented:
June 26, 2012, 11:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You are correct sir, occasionally the C class is also for those who have it all, and are too stretched because they have to make payments on multiple million-dollar homes, a Ferrari, two Porsches, a jet and a yacht, that they have to settle for a C250 as their daily beater.
Actually I had a C Class rental for a few weeks last fall. I thought it was a nice car and if I needed a daily driver in NYC I would take it over a 3 series with the sport suspension based on the much better ride quality over poor surfaces.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 27, 2012, 1:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Its funny how we got our panties twisted over this guy's conclusion. I post two different comparison tests with the same cars that picked the 335i. The bottom line is the Audi is still over 400 lbs heavier and no one can tell me this doesn't show up in driving feel. Look at the weight distribution also, the Audi is a lot more front bias.
manual S4: 3847 lbs
manual 335: 3545 lbs

Close, but more like 300lbs difference.
dtc100 commented:
June 27, 2012, 1:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Actually I had a C Class rental for a few weeks last fall. I thought it was a nice car and if I needed a daily driver in NYC I would take it over a 3 series with the sport suspension based on the much better ride quality over poor surfaces.
The sport suspension in the new 3s (including the late 2011 models) are much improved. The issue I had with the C250 loaner was the terrible turbo lag. Haven't driven a C300 or C350 lately.

The latest A4 I recently drove, power delivery wasn't too bad, but the soft steering made the car really off the center, road feel was artificial as well. Unfortunately the F30 has moved in that direction, although not nearly as bad.

Maybe S4 is different.
sf_loft commented:
June 27, 2012, 4:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
manual S4: 3847 lbs
manual 335: 3545 lbs

Close, but more like 300lbs difference.
Weight difference is eliminated by having the torque vectoring rear diff. I came from an e92 and the S4 does not feel heavier, in fact lighter as the torque vectoring rotates your car around corners effortlessly.
sf_loft commented:
June 27, 2012, 4:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The sport suspension in the new 3s (including the late 2011 models) are much improved. The issue I had with the C250 loaner was the terrible turbo lag. Haven't driven a C300 or C350 lately.

The latest A4 I recently drove, power delivery wasn't too bad, but the soft steering made the car really off the center, road feel was artificial as well. Unfortunately the F30 has moved in that direction, although not nearly as bad.

Maybe S4 is different.
Putting the S4 in comfort mode, makes it ride like a mercedes. I do it in San Francisco when driving in the city over crappy roads. Steering very light and suspension soft. What differs with the S4 is the "Dynamic" mode which tightens the suspension, steering, and makes the throttle sensitive.

So yes, it is different. An A4 with the sports package is good enough for many with a 60/40 split quattro system, but I prefer the feel and added confidence of having the torque vectoring system. Just makes the car feel more nimble.
SuperTerp commented:
June 27, 2012, 8:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Weight difference is eliminated by having the torque vectoring rear diff. I came from an e92 and the S4 does not feel heavier, in fact lighter as the torque vectoring rotates your car around corners effortlessly.
Agree, this is one thing I notice big time. They really need to get TV down into the lines.

S4 should be going against the IS/M-Sport with ppk. As the 335i stock scrapes everything up and down audi's lines from a4 even a6/a7.
demas commented:
June 27, 2012, 11:08 am

It's 7:25am and I'm already excited at the thought of getting into my BMW and enjoying the drive to work. As the garage door opens, I look around the neighborhood and see mom's with kids and 20 something's all going about their way to the pre-school or the train station for work. I smile.


Through past the neighborhood and further down the road I see 3 domestic cars driving the speed limit with plenty of gaps in between - which they purposely left open for me as they had noticed my angels eyes from afar rapidly catching up. I drop a gear and whiz past the first car nearly taking out his door mirror (they like when I do that), cut in front of the second one and get millimeters away from the rear of the third car until he moved aside (I think that one had one of those four ring emblems). The light in front proceeded to turn red from yellow and I floor it just making it past. In my rear view I see the cars stop at the light all flashing, honking and waving in amazement obviously praising me on the fine execution of a maneuver that only a BMW can perform.


Get onto the main highway, taxi's, buses, insignificant domestic cars and a Prius all litter the road making my morning commute a tad more aggravating. Only BMW's are allowed to be the first in the pack and I for one will not tolerate driving behind lesser makes. Through the use of my dual tone horn, high beams and aggressive force am I competently able to take command and attain my goal. Such hard work and its not even 8am. Need that coffee break already.


While stopped at the next light my phone rings, I turn down the Snoop blasting and answer - its my sexy Asian secretary and she's calling to tell me that the 10am with my buddy Simon head of Equity sales trading at Merrill has been cancelled - he's taken the morning off to go sky diving and will meet me instead tonight to talk strategy at his penthouse. He has hired a master sushi chef to come and prepare dinner - a bit bland I admit, but looking forward to that. Meanwhile, the light has turned green and I'm just finishing up the call while cars are having to go past me as they know never to inconvenience a BMW. As they slowly swerve around, they look over at me admiring my Armani, Movado and this amazing Alpine White BMW goodness. Yeah, I know they'd give up one year of their life to experience 10 seconds of mine.


Ok, turn Snoop back on (nothing beats these superior stock BMW subs) and accelerate further down the highway. The office parking entrance is on the left. No need to use the blinker as these mere mortals walking and bicycling to work know very well the standard protocol - which is to never get in the way of an oncoming BMW. I proceed to bulldoze my way through pedestrian traffic and down the parking entrance slope. I make my way towards my spot completely ignoring the 8Kph speed limit and park exceptionally perfect, fix my tie, do the 'look-back' and go up the elevator to start an ordinary working day.



At the main entrance, I kindly smile and open the door for the lady in front of me.
dtc100 commented:
June 27, 2012, 11:33 am

I realized the above post is a phony only at the very end, when he didn't occupy two parking spots at the far away corner.
dealio commented:
June 27, 2012, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by demas View Post
It's 7:25am and I'm already excited at the thought of getting into my BMW and enjoying the drive to work.
.
.
.

At the main entrance, I kindly smile and open the door for the lady in front of me.
mdsbuc commented:
June 27, 2012, 2:59 pm

It's really hell having the responsibility of owning the most sought after production automobile of all time, but 'gawd almighty,' someones got to do it!
captainaudio commented:
June 27, 2012, 3:18 pm

Noblesse oblige vous savez.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
June 27, 2012, 4:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
It's really hell having the responsibility of owning the most sought after production automobile of all time, but 'gawd almighty,' someones got to do it!
You drive a Ford so I can't talk to you.

BJ
mdsbuc commented:
June 27, 2012, 5:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You drive a Ford so I can't talk to you.

BJ




I can tell you that the absolute, most perfect car I've ever owned was the '06 530i that I picked up in Freimann, Germany, October '05. I'm a BMW fan, big time, but I also know that there are other great cars being built. The Mustang is a superb value, very well built, and a hell of a lot of fun to drive. It can produce E90 M3 numbers on a track for about 2/3 or less the price. On top of that, it's got good old fashioned, American Muscle, good looks; that being subjective, of course.

Find a Ford Mustang 5.0 GT Premium with the track Pkg., drive it, and see if that doesn't put a big grin on your face. Folks have different needs, different desires at different life stages.

That being said, I'm looking forward to doing my second ED April/May of next year. Still, I'll be keeping the Stang in my stable. She's a keeper.
windsor027 commented:
June 27, 2012, 5:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post




I can tell you that the absolute, most perfect car I've ever owned was the '06 530i that I picked up in Freimann, Germany, October '05. I'm a BMW fan, big time, but I also know that there are other great cars being built. The Mustang is a superb value, very well built, and a hell of a lot of fun to drive. It can produce E90 M3 numbers on a track for about 2/3 or less the price. On top of that, it's got good old fashioned, American Muscle, good looks; that being subjective, of course.

Find a Ford Mustang 5.0 GT Premium with the track Pkg., drive it, and see if that doesn't put a big grin on your face. Folks have different needs, different desires at different life stages.

That being said, I'm looking forward to doing my second ED April/May of next year. Still, I'll be keeping the Stang in my stable. She's a keeper.
never drove a 5.0 GT but just knowing there is a live axle at the rear would make me nervous every time I took a corner a little too fast with the pavement thats around these parts. Maybe the idea of losing the back end the minute those tires lose grip give you the grin I don't know.
mdsbuc commented:
June 27, 2012, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
never drove a 5.0 GT but just knowing there is a live axle at the rear would make me nervous every time I took a corner a little too fast with the pavement thats around these parts. Maybe the idea of losing the back end the minute those tires lose grip give you the grin I don't know.
Just drive one. Most reviewers marvel at how well Ford has "tamed" that live axle. Occasionally there's a little "hop," but I've never experienced anything frightening.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 27, 2012, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post

I can tell you that the absolute, most perfect car I've ever owned was the '06 530i that I picked up in Freimann, Germany, October '05. I'm a BMW fan, big time, but I also know that there are other great cars being built.

That being said, I'm looking forward to doing my second ED April/May of next year. Still, I'll be keeping the Stang in my stable. She's a keeper.
On behalf of everyone on Bimmerfest, we are sad to see you depart for the balance of the year but look forward to hearing from you again in April/May as you get your new BMW.

If you must continue to frequent this site, please visit the E9X subforum as those used car owners are more your speed now. If you choose to respond to this post be forewarned that my manservant will be upset and you don't want to face those consequences so it's best to go back to IDriveAFrigginFordAndThinkItsARacecar dot com and try to impress your ego over there.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
June 27, 2012, 6:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
Just drive one. Most reviewers marvel at how well Ford has "tamed" that live axle. Occasionally there's a little "hop," but I've never experienced anything frightening.
I drove a new Mustang recently and was very impressed with how good a job they did of taming the live rear axle. I found that it had less wheel hop on poor surfaces than my 335i did when it had the stock shocks and the RFTs.

CA
mdsbuc commented:
June 27, 2012, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
so it's best to go back to IDriveAFrigginFordAndThinkItsARacecar dot com and try to impress your ego over there.

BJ


IDriveAFrigginFord.com
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
This has been going on on this forum for years. A review or comparison that favors BMW is taken as conclusive proof of the superiority of BMW. A review or comparison that favors the competition is taken as conclusive proof of the bias and incompetence of the reviewer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your conclusion is just as false as the conclusions you railed against.

Check out this thread

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=629773
dtc100 commented:
June 28, 2012, 12:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The Consumer Report is a unique situation to a car enthusiast, regardless if he is for BMW, MB, or Audi. Because CR places a car's reliability at the top of the list.

An enthusiast places reliability below driving dynamics. Therefore it is not surprising most of them disagree with CR, whether you are for BMW, MB or Audi.

In addition to that, the actual sales features support the car enthusiasts, not CR in this category. The 3 series continues to lead in sales, followed by the C class, eventhough both are quite low on the CR scale.

So his above statement remains false. One does not have to go outside of this very thread to see proof. Even in this very thread, it is not one-sided. There are plenty of recognition given to the S4, some of the complaints about choosing an S4 loaded with LSD and performance tires, to compare with a base 335i with the stock all season tires, are absolutely legit.

Even so, I see a fair amount of praises for the S4 coming from a mostly BMW crowd. What more proof does one need?
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The Consumer Report is a unique situation to a car enthusiast, regardless if he is for BMW, MB, or Audi. Because CR places a car's reliability at the top of the list.

An enthusiast places reliability below driving dynamics. Therefore it is not surprising most of them disagree with CR, whether you are for BMW, MB or Audi.

In addition to that, the actual sales features support the car enthusiasts, not CR in this category. The 3 series continues to lead in sales, followed by the C class, eventhough both are quite low on the CR scale.

So his above statement remains false. One does not have to go outside of this very thread to see proof. Even in this very thread, it is not one-sided. There are plenty of recognition given to the S4, some of the complaints about choosing an S4 loaded with LSD and performance tires, to compare with a base 335i with the stock all season tires, are absolutely legit.

Even so, I see a fair amount of praises for the S4 coming from a mostly BMW crowd. What more proof does one need?
The bottom line is that the BMW won the comparison but the fact that it apparently did not win by a large enough margin and that CR found fault with some aspects of it led to a series of posts discrediting CRs test procedures in spite of the fact that they stated that the BMW performed better and was more fun to drive.

CA
mdsbuc commented:
June 28, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
One does not have to go outside of this very thread to see proof. Even in this very thread, it is not one-sided. There are plenty of recognition given to the S4, some of the complaints about choosing an S4 loaded with LSD and performance tires, to compare with a base 335i with the stock all season tires, are absolutely legit.

Even so, I see a fair amount of praises for the S4 coming from a mostly BMW crowd. What more proof does one need?
And to add to that, there are even now discussions on this forum concerning the upcoming Cadillac ATS; a lot of it quite favorable. There was a time, not long ago, when American makes were never brought into the discussion. It was all about MB vs. Audi vs. our beloved bimmers.
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 1:36 pm

They are all good cars and each of them excel in certain areas and not every owner puts the same level of importance on the same aspects.
I have a fair amount of experience driving both the C Class and the 3 Series and can understand why some people would choose one over the other. I have not driven an F30 yet and am not likely to in the near future since it is not a car that I am particularly interested in owning at this point in time. From what I have read it is an excellent car but may not be out in front of its competitors to the same degree that previous models were.
dtc100 commented:
June 28, 2012, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The bottom line is that the BMW won the comparison but the fact that it apparently did not win by a large enough margin and that CR found fault with some aspects of it led to a series of posts discrediting CRs test procedures in spite of the fact that they stated that the BMW performed better and was more fun to drive.

CA
I can assure you even if the 3 got a higher margin over the C, you will still find many discrediting the CR reviews, as long as the G37 gets a way higher CR rating.
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 5:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol you are too much. But I haven't been in a wal-mart parking lot since 05
Then how do you explain this?!

SuperTerp commented:
June 28, 2012, 6:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Then how do you explain this?!
HOW DID you find that?!? I swear the internet catches everyone
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 6:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
HOW DID you find that?!? I swear the internet catches everyone

I happened to be driving by on the way to my Country Club in one of my BMWs. As soon as your car I pulled into the lot, jumped out of my BMW, fought my way through the jealous throngs that gathered around it and shot a picture with my wildly expnsive German Leica Camera that can only be afforded by those of us in the top 1%.

Leica S2 SLR Digital Camera Body with Dual Shutter System, 37.5 Megapixel, 3.0" LCD/OLED Display, Black


Our Price
$22,995.00

As soon as I realized that for $22,995.00 the damn thing didn't even have a lens I shot another picture with my iPhone.

CA
dtc100 commented:
June 28, 2012, 7:25 pm

Did you buy the iPhone from that Wal-Mart store? If so we know why BJ does not speak to you.
mdsbuc commented:
June 28, 2012, 7:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Then how do you explain this?!

voip-ninja commented:
June 28, 2012, 7:34 pm

.
captainaudio commented:
June 28, 2012, 7:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Did you buy the iPhone from that Wal-Mart store? If so we know why BJ does not speak to you.
Wal-Mart?

I think not!

The iPhone was purchased at Apple's Flagship Store on Fifth Avenue which is conveniently located accross the street from Bergdorf Goodman and Van Cleef and Arpels, next door to Zegna, around the corner from Brioni and in close proximity to several other establishments that I frequent.



CA
dtc100 commented:
June 28, 2012, 7:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
Yeah, my initial reaction was, why wasn't it having a bra on (or wearing pants)?
dtc100 commented:
June 29, 2012, 2:14 pm

Now that BMW and Toyota will likely jointly make a sports car, BJ may start randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Camry.
mdsbuc commented:
June 29, 2012, 3:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Now that BMW and Toyota will likely jointly make a sports car, BJ may start randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Camry.
Only if he doesn't have a stroke first.
AutoUnion commented:
June 29, 2012, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Now that BMW and Toyota will likely jointly make a sports car, BJ may start randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Camry.
I think he would much rather commit suicide
dtc100 commented:
June 29, 2012, 4:06 pm

How about BJ randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Lexus?
AutoUnion commented:
June 29, 2012, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
How about BJ randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Lexus?
Those are bargain basement wannabe luxury brands remember? Nothing compared to the all-mighty BMW.

The LFA is just a nice Toyota Yaris for the McDonald's eating crowd.
boltjaM3s commented:
June 29, 2012, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
How about BJ randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Lexus?
Lexus drivers are the worst, just Mr. & Mrs. Camry splurging with the Christmas bonus.

No faux-luxury car goes out of its way more to scream "I'm just a rebadge" than a Lexus. Audi, second place, naturally. Can't even get first place in that category either.

BJ
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
June 29, 2012, 6:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Lexus drivers are the worst, just Mr. & Mrs. Camry splurging with the Christmas bonus.

No faux-luxury car goes out of its way more to scream "I'm just a rebadge" than a Lexus. Audi, second place, naturally. Can't even get first place in that category either.

BJ
Take a look at the new GS350 F-Sport and try to say that again. There is not a bit of Toyota in that thing. I was inches away from picking one up instead of the f30.
captainaudio commented:
June 29, 2012, 6:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Take a look at the new GS350 F-Sport and try to say that again. There is not a bit of Toyota in that thing. I was inches away from picking one up instead of the f30.
The Lexus wont be able to park in the special parking lot reserved for 3 Series BMW drivers at the County Club.

beden1 commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Now that BMW and Toyota will likely jointly make a sports car, BJ may start randomly high-fiving anyone driving by in a Camry.
BMW is now a rebadged Toyota? Here comes even more government watchdog forced manufacturer recalls!
captainaudio commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW is now a rebadged Toyota? Here comes even more government forced manufacturer recalls!
This may be s good thing. When the accelerator on one of the BMW/Lexus cars sticks and the driver can't control it the BMW sourced HPFP will fail and the car will safely coast to a stop,

CA
mdsbuc commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio
The Lexus wont be able to park in the special parking lot reserved for 3 Series BMW drivers at the County Club.
What, you haven't seen the new sign?

captainaudio commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
What, you haven't seen the new sign?

Actually no, I can't see the new sign.

CA
beden1 commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
This may be s good thing. When the accelerator on one of the BMW/Lexus cars sticks and the driver can't control it the BMW sourced HPFP will fail and the car will safely coast to a stop,

CA
According to Toyota's new recall today, removing the driver side floor mat solves their accelerator issue. Maybe this is the ticket for the HPFP as well?
dtc100 commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Take a look at the new GS350 F-Sport and try to say that again. There is not a bit of Toyota in that thing. I was inches away from picking one up instead of the f30.
So what are you telling BJ? That the GS350 F-Sport is nothing like a Toyota, rather like a BMW? Would that not have proven his point again?
SunnyandRich commented:
June 29, 2012, 8:43 pm

boltjaM3s commented:
June 29, 2012, 10:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Take a look at the new GS350 F-Sport and try to say that again. There is not a bit of Toyota in that thing. I was inches away from picking one up instead of the f30.
I have no clue what a GS350 F-Sport is, but assuming that it's a Lexus there's no way I'd ever be caught dead in a Lexus dealership let alone glance at one on the road.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 29, 2012, 10:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyandRich View Post
I like your username. You're one of the few people on here who isn't coy about his outlook on life and his status.

Power to you, brother. Embrace the stereotype, don't fight it. Right on.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
June 29, 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
According to Toyota's new recall today, removing the driver side floor mat solves their accelerator issue. Maybe this is the ticket for the HPFP as well?
Why would you know about a Toyota recall? You affiliated with one of those summer programs for Salvation Army collections or something?

BJ
beden1 commented:
June 30, 2012, 12:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Why would you know about a Toyota recall? You affiliated with one of those summer programs for Salvation Army collections or something?

BJ
The recall was announced on TV news. I couldn't believe they actually said to have current Toyota owners immediately remove their driver side floor mat which is the culprit for their engine surges. I thought Toyota was sued last year for trying to peddle this same BS?

We owned a Toyota Celica back in 1978 that my wife drove. It was the biggest POS we ever owned. I traded it in on a used/like new 1979 Mercedes after I bought my first BMW the same year. After that, we never looked back as we were "movin on up" the status ladder. I guess we were one of the early adopters of what is now referred to as the boltjaM3s "Status Awareness Movement", or "SAM" by those in the know!
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 1:24 am

I had a 92 Lexus SC 300. It was a wonderful car. If Lexus had continued to develop it I would very likely have gotten another one.

I recently test drove the Lexus LS against the BMW 7 and chose the 7 The LS was very impressive with very good build quality but did not have the driving dynamics of the 750.
OG commented:
June 30, 2012, 1:24 am

Compare, don't compare. Noodles, don't noodles.. I am 44 years old, I am from Europe living in Canada now and I can tell you this: A person who drives Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Acura, etc.. the list goes on, will always be referred to as - he is driving a nice car. A person who drives a bimmer will always be referred to as - he is driving a BMW. Nough said.
(For those of you who can't wait to start commenting on my post - please feel free to or rather do not bother as you WILL be ignored..)
mdsbuc commented:
June 30, 2012, 7:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Actually no, I can't see the new sign.

CA


Can you see it now?
beden1 commented:
June 30, 2012, 9:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I had a 92 Lexus SC 300. It was a wonderful car. If Lexus had continued to develop it I would very likely have gotten another one.

I recently test drove the Lexus LS against the BMW 7 and chose the 7 The LS was very impressive with very good build quality but did not have the driving dynamics of the 750.
Congrats on your new car! I didn't realize that the BMW 7 Series is available with all wheel drive.
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 9:47 am

They do make an AWD 7 and I am amazed at how well it drives for a car of its size,



Needed a car to get to job sites in the NYC area and the 335i with its crappy suspension (even with the FSDs and non RFTs) was totally unsuitable for use on NYC roads BMW offered me a 750 for an extended test drive and we took one on a 4 day trip last Memorial Day, Liked it so much I decided to get one as a company car.
I was also never comfortable with Ms. Audio driving the 335 with no RFTs and no spare tire,

Held on to the E93 as the weekend fun car, I had said that after my experience with the 335 I would never get another BMW but I have modified that view to I will probably never get another 3 Series, but that is not written in stone, i have zero interest in a 3 series sedan but when the new 3 convertible comes out I will check it out but will wait for the M version before I make a decision.

From a status standpoint I am equally ignored by the hoi polloi in either car,
voip-ninja commented:
June 30, 2012, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post


Can you see it now?
If you click the image link directly the message from the bimmerfest server is "invalid image link specified".
mdsbuc commented:
June 30, 2012, 11:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
If you click the image link directly the message from the bimmerfest server is "invalid image link specified".
Crap. I guess that means I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I had changed the original sign to

"LexMW
Parking
Only"

Oh Well!
dtc100 commented:
June 30, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
Crap. I guess that means I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I had changed the original sign to

"LexMW
Parking
Only"

Oh Well!
Your sign looked fine on my desktop, but it is not visible on my mobile app.
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your sign looked fine on my desktop, but it is not visible on my mobile app.
same here
dtc100 commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I had a 92 Lexus SC 300. It was a wonderful car. If Lexus had continued to develop it I would very likely have gotten another one.

I recently test drove the Lexus LS against the BMW 7 and chose the 7 The LS was very impressive with very good build quality but did not have the driving dynamics of the 750.
That is very interesting to know, traditionally C&D has been down on BMW 5 and 7 as far as driving dynamics goes. As they like to say, the least expensive BMWs (3 series to be specific) have the best driving dynamics, opposite of MB, of which you need to move up to the expensive AMGs, the base C class just doesn't cut it.

I am of course talking about driving dynamics only, not comfort, luxury, nor prestige. I know BJ doesn't give a damn about it.
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is very interesting to know, traditionally C&D has been down on BMW 5 and 7 as far as driving dynamics goes. As they like to say, the least expensive BMWs (3 series to be specific) have the best driving dynamics, opposite of MB, of which you need to move up to the expensive AMGs, the base C class just doesn't cut it.
The 7 is certainly not as agile as the 335i but it is a much more pleasant car to drive in NYC. The 335 is much better now that I installed the Koni FSDs and got rid of the RFTs but in stock form it sucked as a city car and in its present form is a great weekend cruiser.

Also looked at the Porsche Panemera, the Jag XJ and the Audi A8. Liked all of them but BMW made me an offer I could not refuse.

CA
beden1 commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 7 is certainly not as agile as the 335i but it is a much more pleasant car to drive in NYC. The 335 is much better now that I installed the Koni FSDs and got rid of the RFTs but in stock form it sucked as a city car and in its present form is a great weekend cruiser.

CA
My wife loved her 740iL the best of any car so far. I'm sure you will enjoy your new 7 Series. I looked at your car picture and it does not have an X denoting all wheel drive. Is it displayed on the sides of the front fenders?
mdsbuc commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your sign looked fine on my desktop, but it is not visible on my mobile app.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio
same here
Good to know. Maybe I'm not totally incompetent!
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My wife loved her 740iL the best of any car so far. I'm sure you will enjoy your new 7 Series. I looked at your car picture and it does not have an X denoting all wheel drive. Is it displayed on the sides of the front fenders?
Yes. There is an X on the front fender. The 750i and 750Li are the only 7s offered with AWD.

The ///M is a badge I bought on eBay and added a magnetic backing to so I could post pictures on BMW forums to annoy people.

dtc100 commented:
June 30, 2012, 7:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My wife loved her 740iL the best of any car so far. I'm sure you will enjoy your new 7 Series. I looked at your car picture and it does not have an X denoting all wheel drive. Is it displayed on the sides of the front fenders?
But his plate says "All Wheels."
SunnyandRich commented:
June 30, 2012, 8:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The ///M is a badge I bought on eBay and added a magnetic backing to so I could post pictures on BMW forums to annoy people.
Love it.
beden1 commented:
June 30, 2012, 9:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Yes. There is an X on the front fender. The 750i and 750Li are the only 7s offered with AWD.

The ///M is a badge I bought on eBay and added a magnetic backing to so I could post pictures on BMW forums to annoy people.

That will be a nice cruiser between NYC and Boca Raton.
captainaudio commented:
June 30, 2012, 9:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That will be a nice cruiser between NYC and Boca Raton.
It will probably never make that trip as we always fly into West Palm. Ms. Audio spends more time in Florida than I do and keeps a car there. I have obligations that keep me in NYC and don't get down as often.

CA
bmw325 commented:
July 1, 2012, 4:10 pm

Love the m badge. Have you gotten flamed for it yet?

Do mere mortals look at it and drool in envy knowing that you have the super rare M750il?
captainaudio commented:
July 1, 2012, 4:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
Love the m badge. Have you gotten flamed for it yet?

Do mere mortals look at it and drool in envy knowing that you have the super rare M750il?
Drivers of Toyota Ca///Mrys, Chevrolet ///Malibus, ///Mazdas and Ford ///Mustangs are the most jealous except, of course for drivers of BMW ///M-328s. You can hear them gritting their teeth from a block away. ///Mercedes Benz drivers pay no attention at all.



Actually i only had the M Badge on a couple of times for photo ops.

I made up a few of them and passed them around at Climb to the Clouds 4 a few weeks back. Not sure if the magnetic backing is strong enough to hold them on at highway speeds.

I'm waiting for a thread where someone gets their panties in a knot over an unauthorized M badged car to post some pics and get flamed.

I'm taking one to Florida with me in a few weeks and will post a picture of Ms. Audio's one of a kind Jaguar ///M-XKR

CA
sf_loft commented:
July 1, 2012, 9:33 pm

Mr. and Mrs. Camry will be happy to know that BMW has forgotten how to build a sports car so they are asking the help of Toyota to build one:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...-up-2012-06-29
beden1 commented:
July 1, 2012, 11:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Mr. and Mrs. Camry will be happy to know that BMW has forgotten how to build a sports car so they are asking the help of Toyota to build one:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...-up-2012-06-29
The world still remembers the last time when the Germans and Japanese formed a partnership!
SuperTerp commented:
July 2, 2012, 7:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Take a look at the new GS350 F-Sport and try to say that again.
I did, but then it got further and further behind in the rear view
boltjaM3s commented:
July 2, 2012, 9:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I did, but then it got further and further behind in the rear view
An Audi isn't a luxury car and it's certainly not a sports car either.

It's just a Volkswagen.

BJ
SuperTerp commented:
July 2, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
An Audi isn't a luxury car and it's certainly not a sports car either.

It's just a Volkswagen.

BJ
Das Auto?

captainaudio commented:
July 2, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
An Audi isn't a luxury car and it's certainly not a sports car either.

It's just a Volkswagen.

BJ
mdsbuc commented:
July 2, 2012, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Right on! I'd take one!
The X Men commented:
July 2, 2012, 11:37 am

Why cant BMW make something like that? BMW ,as a company, really needs a halo car. Mercedes has the mclaren, Audi has the A8, even Lexus have the LF-A. BMW needs to step up to the plate.
captainaudio commented:
July 2, 2012, 11:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I did, but then it got further and further behind in the rear view
Try that with one that isn't parked next time. Results may be different.


CA
Saintor commented:
July 2, 2012, 12:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Why cant BMW make something like that? BMW ,as a company, really needs a halo car. Mercedes has the mclaren, Audi has the A8, even Lexus have the LF-A. BMW needs to step up to the plate.
Maybe it is the job of the 120K$+ i8.

The X Men commented:
July 2, 2012, 1:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Maybe it is the job of the 120K$+ i8.
The I8 is more of a test car than a production car.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 2, 2012, 2:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post


I like this kitcar sitting atop a Volkswagen drivetrain better, but to each his own.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
July 2, 2012, 4:42 pm

I have watched enough videos where people in cars like R8 broke loose at the slightest attempt to show some speed, that the only skill these people had was to show you they have money to throw away.

Of course it makes sense, if you are constantly in the shadow of BJ's rhetoric, it can drive you to that point as the only response you can have.
SuperTerp commented:
July 2, 2012, 5:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I have watched enough videos where people in cars like R8 broke loose at the slightest attempt to show some speed, that the only skill these people had was to show you they have money to throw away.

Of course it makes sense, if you are constantly in the shadow of BJ's rhetoric, it can drive you to that point as the only response you can have.
You should watch the one where the jb4 335i with four passangers overtakes a v10 spyder
dtc100 commented:
July 2, 2012, 5:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
You should watch the one where the jb4 335i with four passangers overtakes a v10 spyder
I am not surprised, those passengers likely provided needed traction to put the power down on the pavement.
windsor027 commented:
July 3, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Certainly does not come close to the R8, which did not seem to gain any respect around here.
the R8 gets a lot of my respect. Anyone that doesn't respect that machine, is all show and no go if you get my drift.
dtc100 commented:
July 3, 2012, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
the R8 gets a lot of my respect. Anyone that doesn't respect that machine, is all show and no go if you get my drift.
That is only if you know how to "get going" in a car like R8. Unfortunately I suspect many who drive R8 and the likes don't know how to handle those beasts, and quickly lose respect from the bystanders.

I guess the question is, respect for what? The car, or the one who sits behind the wheel?
beden1 commented:
July 3, 2012, 11:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is only if you know how to "get going" in a car like R8. Unfortunately I suspect many who drive R8 and the likes don't know how to handle those beasts, and quickly lose respect from the bystanders.

I guess the question is, respect for what? The car, or the one who sits behind the wheel?
Why would the R8 be tough to get going with all wheel drive?
SuperTerp commented:
July 3, 2012, 12:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
the R8 gets a lot of my respect.
If its the 4.2 FSI's up until the spyder launch then LOL, if it's the 5.2s then it's perfectly reasonable to acknowledge it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Why would the R8 be tough to get going with all wheel drive?
Those are R tronics can be a real challenge
sf_loft commented:
July 3, 2012, 9:09 pm

Heh, funny. The R8 is one of the most livable super cars out there. Hard to break loose an AWD R8 unless you turn off all electronic nannies. You put a dummy inside any car and you have a dummy driving. You can do more damage in an M3, Mustang, or Camaro because it's easier to break loose.
captainaudio commented:
July 3, 2012, 10:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Heh, funny. The R8 is one of the most livable super cars out there. Hard to break loose an AWD R8 unless you turn off all electronic nannies. You put a dummy inside any car and you have a dummy driving. You can do more damage in an M3, Mustang, or Camaro because it's easier to break loose.
You can't make any car idiot proof.
Idiots are very resourceful.

CA
dtc100 commented:
July 3, 2012, 11:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
You can't make any car idiot proof.
Idiots are very resourceful.

CA
Like getting caught surprised by the acceleration and forgot to turn the steering wheel at the turn. In the future model the electronic nanny will have to turn the wheel for the driver.
crazyeyeskilla commented:
July 18, 2012, 6:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I think the S4 is a fine car, and I think its been beat on enough for me to avoid that , but it should also be noted if the "S-Line" is considered their M/AMG division equivalent, should that really be going up against what I would consider a base sedan? I mean it would make me feel better that a non-M base car can compete with another's sport division.
I'm not sure how the thread got off on the hoi polloi, Cheez Whiz, man servant tangents, but I wholeheartedly agree with SuperTerp. I think the S4's a fantastic car, but it damn well should be given its higher price than the non-M 3er. The S4 went head to head with the M3 as recently as the E36 days, but then BMW decided to turn up the heat. Now Audi's always comparing the S4 to the 335i because neither the S4 nor the RS4 can top an M3. It's like the 5th grader looking to fight the 3rd grader in the schoolyard and the 3rd grader still almost kicks his a$$.
voip-ninja commented:
July 18, 2012, 6:22 pm

The only thing "unfair" in the 335i to S4 comparison is that the S4 is AWD and the 335i is not. If you put x-drive on the 335i then the price difference between the cars shrinks to something like $2000. And for that $2000 premium the S4 has a whole helluva lot better kit including leather sport seats, etc.

The reality is that if you price a 335i x-drive sport against an S4 base, they are almost exactly the same price, the only problem (for BMW) is that the S4 performs better and still gives more options as standard than the 3-er.
crazyeyeskilla commented:
July 20, 2012, 11:56 am

I don't know about you, but when I'm buying a luxury sport sedan, I'd like some creature comforts. While it's true the two cars are separated by $2k in stripper form, if you option them comparably with navi, heated seats, and add the Audi Drive Select features that come standard on the Bimmer, the cost of the S4 jumps up to $61k vs $56k for the 335xi. 10% more gets my attention if I'm comparison shopping. It'll be interesting to see how the 0-60 time shapes up for the F30 xDrive. The E90xi is quicker to 60 than the S4.