CONFIRMED - F30 xDrive with Adaptive M Suspension Does NOT Lower Ride Height

by Tim Jones on August 15, 2012, 12:56 pm
BMW F30 3 series all wheel drive - xDrive

For model year 2013 BMW released the F30 3 series with their all wheel drive, xDrive system. There has been some confusion about the suspension options available for xDrive F30s. The 2013 3 series ordering guide is clear that BMW is not offering the sport suspension on the xDrive F30. BMW however is offering the Adaptive M Suspension and the Dynamic Handling Package, which also includes the Adaptive M Suspension. The Adaptive M Suspension offered for the rear wheel drive F30 includes a 10mm lower sport spring, the same spring that is offer on the sport suspension.

On the xDrive all wheel drive variants of the 3 series the Adaptive M Suspension will NOT lower the ride height of the car. Regardless of package and options all xDrive F30s will have the same ride height. We believe this is to keep the front drive axle CV joint angles as straight at possible as additional lowering would put them outside of allowable factory specifications.

I know this will be a disappointment to some of you that have an xDrive F30 in your future.


Leave a Comment

You must be a registered member to comment on stories. Please take a moment to register for your free account now. If you already have an account, log in using fields below.










132 responses to CONFIRMED - F30 xDrive with Adaptive M Suspension Does NOT Lower Ride Height

rtgirard commented:
August 15, 2012, 1:01 pm

Tim... thank you for confirming this. Not the outcome I was hoping for, but sure is good to finally have an answer.
sr5959 commented:
August 15, 2012, 1:15 pm

I was thinking of adding Sport wheels to my baseline, but I was worried how they would look without the lowered suspension. Now I just have to find an X-Drive Sport and check it out...
samualcc commented:
August 15, 2012, 1:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
I was thinking of adding Sport wheels to my baseline, but I was worried how they would look without the lowered suspension. Now I just have to find an X-Drive Sport and check it out...
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=635940

Still looks hot, but something about the ride height takes away from the aggressive look, especially from the rear.
bmwf30 commented:
August 15, 2012, 1:40 pm

I on the other hand am very happy about this. Area where I live has lots of speed bumps and steep driveways. Whatever the terrain, id hate to scrape the bottom with a lowered height. Moreover it would really suck if the drive areas that usually cleared without a problem with my lexus will have problems with my bimmer. On top of that a red embarassing face if someone saw it....
kosmo commented:
August 15, 2012, 9:35 pm

Great news for people who drive on imperfectly plowed snowy roads! Hoping this carries over to the wagon version we should see shortly.
VLing commented:
August 15, 2012, 11:34 pm

I originally wanted to order a 2013 F30 Sedan xDrive. Both of my current vehicles (Honda) are all wheel drive and wanted the same assurance that I would be able to get up the hill to my house; during the few days of black ice and few inches of snow we get in the Pacific Northwest.

The dealer CA talked me out of the xDrive and here was his logic:

1) You don't need xDrive that often and you should drive your other all wheel drive on the days you need get up that hill.
2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD
3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower.
4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car.

Since there was no F30 Sedan xDrive to test in 2012 (new for 2013) I could not evaluate the RWD verses the xDrive. But to me the RWD has a perfect 50/50 balance and did not know whether it would be the same for the xDrive.

Decided the go with the RWD and the $2k difference was applied to get the lighting package and HK sound.
No regrets.....
fb88 commented:
August 15, 2012, 11:45 pm

Is F30 xdrive system the same as in E90?
boltjaM3s commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
I originally wanted to order a 2013 F30 Sedan xDrive. Both of my current vehicles (Honda) are all wheel drive and wanted the same assurance that I would be able to get up the hill to my house; during the few days of black ice and few inches of snow we get in the Pacific Northwest.

The dealer CA talked me out of the xDrive and here was his logic:

1) You don't need xDrive that often and you should drive your other all wheel drive on the days you need get up that hill.
2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD
3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower.
4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car.

Since there was no F30 Sedan xDrive to test in 2012 (new for 2013) I could not evaluate the RWD verses the xDrive. But to me the RWD has a perfect 50/50 balance and did not know whether it would be the same for the xDrive.

Decided the go with the RWD and the $2k difference was applied to get the lighting package and HK sound.
No regrets.....
+1

Good decision, I did the same 5 years ago on my E93 and learned a valuable secret: With a good set of snow tires, your F30 RWD will handle about 90% as well as if it had AWD.

XDrive is a great hip-pocket extra bit of insurance to have on a terribly nasty day but it's really all about the snow tires. And not that this will bring you any comfort because they might crash into you, but RWD on snow tires will make you safer than 90% of the other cars on the road who are using AWD and all seasons.

Either way, for those taking the F30 with XDrive, you'll love it. I just did 30 months in an XDrive E90 M-Sport and it handled like a dream in all conditions; that 10mm isn't very noticeable so don't fret.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:26 am

Audi Quarttro does not have the height limitation, they seem to sit quite low, yet people buy them for snow driving more so than other brands.
VLing commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:38 am

Just think about the Sport Suspension being 10mm lower. Question... when parking up against a curb or concrete tire block in some parking lots, does the lower sports suspension cause any scraping of the front body? I see many folks backing into parking spots in Bimmers; so their rear of the car is against the curb. Any input would be great. Hate to learn the hard way when my new ride is delivered and I hear a scraping sound when parking. It would ruin my day.....being slightly OCD about my vehicles.
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
Just think about the Sport Suspension being 10mm lower. Question... when parking up against a curb or concrete tire block in some parking lots, does the lower sports suspension cause any scraping of the front body? I see many folks backing into parking spots in Bimmers; so their rear of the car is against the curb. Any input would be great. Hate to learn the hard way when my new ride is delivered and I hear a scraping sound when parking. It would ruin my day.....being slightly OCD about my vehicles.
Oh yeah, my E90 does not have lowered body, and it scrapes.
sf_loft commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

Good decision, I did the same 5 years ago on my E93 and learned a valuable secret: With a good set of snow tires, your F30 RWD will handle about 90% as well as if it had AWD.

XDrive is a great hip-pocket extra bit of insurance to have on a terribly nasty day but it's really all about the snow tires. And not that this will bring you any comfort because they might crash into you, but RWD on snow tires will make you safer than 90% of the other cars on the road who are using AWD and all seasons.

Either way, for those taking the F30 with XDrive, you'll love it. I just did 30 months in an XDrive E90 M-Sport and it handled like a dream in all conditions; that 10mm isn't very noticeable so don't fret.

BJ
+1 I agree with BJ. It's all about the tires and with the highly intrusive traction control of the BMW, 90% of RWD owners will be just fine with the right set of tires. They have to be winter tires though since not all all-seasons are great. Get the XDrive if you don't want to keep two sets of tires and use all-seasons year round.
floydarogers commented:
August 16, 2012, 10:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Audi Quarttro does not have the height limitation, they seem to sit quite low, yet people buy them for snow driving more so than other brands.
Audi is also a FWD-based car and they didn't have to compromise the front drivetrain design.
Michael Schott commented:
August 16, 2012, 10:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Audi Quarttro does not have the height limitation, they seem to sit quite low, yet people buy them for snow driving more so than other brands.
The 3 series as you know is primarily a RWD car and was designed with this in mind. The Audi on the other hand is primarily an AWD car and was designed that way.

(Sorry, I didn't read post 14 before writing this. I don't know if the A4 was designed as a FWD car or an AWD car. I'm sure there are other factors like the overall design of the AWD systems.)
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Audi is also a FWD-based car and they didn't have to compromise the front drivetrain design.
I am increasingly leaning towards AWD for reason different than most AWD buyers. I like the fact it has twice the contact patches on the asphalt/concrete, helps out at autoxes. The xdrive's body height becomes a negative point.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
I originally wanted to order a 2013 F30 Sedan xDrive. Both of my current vehicles (Honda) are all wheel drive and wanted the same assurance that I would be able to get up the hill to my house; during the few days of black ice and few inches of snow we get in the Pacific Northwest.

The dealer CA talked me out of the xDrive and here was his logic:

1) You don't need xDrive that often and you should drive your other all wheel drive on the days you need get up that hill.
2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD
3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower.
4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car.

Since there was no F30 Sedan xDrive to test in 2012 (new for 2013) I could not evaluate the RWD verses the xDrive. But to me the RWD has a perfect 50/50 balance and did not know whether it would be the same for the xDrive.

Decided the go with the RWD and the $2k difference was applied to get the lighting package and HK sound.
No regrets.....
It's already been determined safety is the most important factor therefore AWD with snows is the way to go. No other option is acceptable.
tim330i commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:22 am

I have to disagree. AWD does not let you corner or brake better, snow tires do. Accidents in the winter are seldom from the inability to accelerate.

Anyways on the Audi lowering issues. The Audi engines are mounted transverse which gives them better front half shaft packaging then the BMW has for sure. Having the passenger side shaft run through the oil pan cannot be the most efficient.

Tim
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I have to disagree. AWD does not let you corner or brake better, snow tires do. Accidents in the winter are seldom from the inability to accelerate.

Anyways on the Audi lowering issues. The Audi engines are mounted transverse which gives them better front half shaft packaging then the BMW has for sure. Having the passenger side shaft run through the oil pan cannot be the most efficient.

Tim
Spring height issue aside, most people want lowered body mainly to cover the gap between the rubber and fender. It can be easily resolved by designing fenders specifically for the xdrives to cover the gap.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I have to disagree. AWD does not let you corner or brake better, snow tires do. Accidents in the winter are seldom from the inability to accelerate.
That's why I said AWD with snow tires. Everything else is a non-starter.
tim330i commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:31 pm

Snow tires on RWD seems more then adequate to me. I won't buy AWD for 3 days out of 365.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 12:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Snow tires on RWD seems more then adequate to me. I won't buy AWD for 3 days out of 365.
You have to take it up with BJ. He was the one who determined safety was the number one factor and AWD with snows delivered it better than any other combination of power train / tire combination.
kevins950 commented:
August 16, 2012, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
I originally wanted to order a 2013 F30 Sedan xDrive. Both of my current vehicles (Honda) are all wheel drive and wanted the same assurance that I would be able to get up the hill to my house; during the few days of black ice and few inches of snow we get in the Pacific Northwest.

The dealer CA talked me out of the xDrive and here was his logic:

1) You don't need xDrive that often and you should drive your other all wheel drive on the days you need get up that hill.
2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD
3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower.
4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car.

Since there was no F30 Sedan xDrive to test in 2012 (new for 2013) I could not evaluate the RWD verses the xDrive. But to me the RWD has a perfect 50/50 balance and did not know whether it would be the same for the xDrive.

Decided the go with the RWD and the $2k difference was applied to get the lighting package and HK sound.
No regrets.....
+1 At the end of the day, what matters is that your happy with your decision. If your happy with the results, you've made the right choice. I have no doubt that you'll get years of satisfaction from your BMW. Congrats & enjoy your new ride.
Michael Schott commented:
August 16, 2012, 1:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Snow tires on RWD seems more then adequate to me. I won't buy AWD for 3 days out of 365.
Exactly right Tim. I value light weight and nimble handling in my 328i. AWD is the antithesis of these.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 1:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Exactly right Tim. I value light weight and nimble handling in my 328i. AWD is the antithesis of these.
You don't value safety?
Michael Schott commented:
August 16, 2012, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
You don't value safety?
Of course I do. My RWD 328i is plenty safe. Are you saying the xDrive is safer than the RWD?
sr5959 commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael schott View Post
exactly right tim. I value light weight and nimble handling in my 328i. Awd is the antithesis of these.
+1
The X Men commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I have to disagree. AWD does not let you corner or brake better, snow tires do.
If an AWD car and a RWD have the same tires, the AWD car will out corner the RWD in the snow, no matter what type of tires they are using.
WillInDenver commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I have to disagree. AWD does not let you corner or brake better, snow tires do. Accidents in the winter are seldom from the inability to accelerate.
That's all true. People tend to leave hills out of the analysis, though. If you live in a flat, snowy place, RWD with snows is a fine solution. Those snows won't help you crank up an icy incline nearly as well as AWD does, so I think someone who lives in a snowy, hilly area should think about AWD.

I live in a snowy, hilly area and drive a RWD E60 with snows. Mostly it's fine, but sometimes right after a snowfall I have to take the long route out of my neighborhood to avoid a certain hill.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Of course I do. My RWD 328i is plenty safe. Are you saying the xDrive is safer than the RWD?
Yes, xDrive adds better acceleration in addition to braking and cornering offering the best combination.
WillInDenver commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Yes, xDrive adds better acceleration in addition to braking and cornering offering the best combination.
I'm not sure there's any data on AWD offering better cornering, at least in ways that we as daily drivers would notice. And I'm sure AWD does nothing for braking - how would it?

The primary AWD advantage is traction - the weight of the car is more or less evenly distributed across driven wheels at all four corners, versus two driven wheels either pushing or pulling the rest of the car. It's an advantage, certainly - but probably not as much as the automakers would want us to believe.

That said, in all likelihood I will go back to AWD for my next car, for reasons I mentioned above.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
That's all true. People tend to leave hills out of the analysis, though. If you live in a flat, snowy place, RWD with snows is a fine solution. Those snows won't help you crank up an icy incline nearly as well as AWD does, so I think someone who lives in a snowy, hilly area should think about AWD.

I live in a snowy, hilly area and drive a RWD E60 with snows. Mostly it's fine, but sometimes right after a snowfall I have to take the long route out of my neighborhood to avoid a certain hill.
It's not just hills. Pulling out from a stop sign, stop light, or cutting in front of traffic (think left hand turn) are all areas where acceleration can be important in avoiding an accident.
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 2:58 pm

Yeah, according to BMWUSA, the 2013 335i xdrive is 0.4 second faster than its 335i counterpart in 0-60.

That can be a life and death difference at any intersection.
WillInDenver commented:
August 16, 2012, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
It's not just hills. Pulling out from a stop sign, stop light, or cutting in front of traffic (think left hand turn) are all areas where acceleration can be important in avoiding an accident.
I agree, although I don't think that on a flat surface, AWD offers enough substantial advantage over RWD with snow tires in those situations to justify its cost. On a hill, whole different deal.

And, again - I'm the guy driving the RWD car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yeah, according to BMWUSA, the 2013 335i xdrive is 0.4 second faster than its 335i counterpart in 0-60.
...on a dry track in 75 degree weather.
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 3:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post

...on a dry track in 75 degree weather.
I don't hold my breath they will ever give us the 0-60 specs on a snowy hill in sub zero weather.
WillInDenver commented:
August 16, 2012, 3:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I don't hold my breath they will ever give us the 0-60 specs on a snowy hill in sub zero weather.
It would be interesting, though.
Michael Schott commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Yes, xDrive adds better acceleration in addition to braking and cornering offering the best combination.
I can't think of a situation other than in the snow where any of this would make a difference in real life. And unless the brakes are bigger on an xdrive car there is no braking advantage to AWD. Lets leave out the .01% of time and focus on the 99.99% of the time.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I'm not sure there's any data on AWD offering better cornering, at least in ways that we as daily drivers would notice. And I'm sure AWD does nothing for braking - how would it?

The primary AWD advantage is traction - the weight of the car is more or less evenly distributed across driven wheels at all four corners, versus two driven wheels either pushing or pulling the rest of the car. It's an advantage, certainly - but probably not as much as the automakers would want us to believe.

That said, in all likelihood I will go back to AWD for my next car, for reasons I mentioned above.
My post wasn't really clear on what I meant. I was referring to the three legs: Acceleration, cornering, and braking. Snow tires improve all three but AWD with snow tires out accelerates RWD with snow tires. Thus making that one leg safer while maintaining the equal safeness of the other two.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yeah, according to BMWUSA, the 2013 335i xdrive is 0.4 second faster than its 335i counterpart in 0-60.

That can be a life and death difference at any intersection.
I'm not referring to 0-60 times but rather the ability for the wheels to grip when accelerating through an intersection or across oncoming traffic (think: left turn) in inclement weather conditions. To get a feel what I'm talking about the next time you have to pull out in front of oncoming traffic ensure you take it nice and easy, don't punch it.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I can't think of a situation other than in the snow where any of this would make a difference in real life. And unless the brakes are bigger on an xdrive car there is no braking advantage to AWD. Lets leave out the .01% of time and focus on the 99.99% of the time.
See my response to WJGreer.
dtc100 commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I'm not referring to 0-60 times but rather the ability for the wheels to grip when accelerating through an intersection or across oncoming traffic (think: left turn) in inclement weather conditions. To get a feel what I'm talking about the next time you have to pull out in front of oncoming traffic ensure you take it nice and easy, don't punch it.
Of course the best spec in the manufacture's spec sheet to demonstrate AWD's advantage of more legs, is the faster 0-60 time.

As for the rest of your post, I am not sure if you are trying to talk me out of the will to live, or what?
boltjaM3s commented:
August 16, 2012, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
You have to take it up with BJ. He was the one who determined safety was the number one factor and AWD with snows delivered it better than any other combination of power train / tire combination.
My earlier post makes my position clear. RWD on snow tires gives you 90% of the traction you'd get with AWD on snow tires and for the ultimate in winter traction you want AWD on snow tires.

I live in New Jersey in a relatively flat area. For the 3 days a year I really could have used the AWD I'll use my wife's car. Not going to buy one of the best RWD cars on the planet and put XDrive on it for those 3 days and compromise performance the other 362.

Bottom line is that I spent 30 months in a RWD E93 on snow tires and 30 months in an XDrive E90 on snow tiers and the difference in 'casual' winter weather was 0% and the different in 'harsh' winter weather was 10%. We're not talking about something significant here. There are two reasons why XDrive exists: 1) It's a pricey feature that they can sell, 2) Lazy Americans ****in to the myth that it's as safe as snow tires to avoid two trips to the tire shop.

BJ
floydarogers commented:
August 16, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We're not talking about something significant here. There are two reasons why XDrive exists: 1) It's a pricey feature that they can sell, 2) Lazy Americans ****in to the myth that it's as safe as snow tires to avoid two trips to the tire shop.
There's a third reason: For the less than 1% of us that actually need AWD and snow tires because we live on unplowed roads in the mountains.

Me included; please don't assume we don't exist.
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 6:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My earlier post makes my position clear. RWD on snow tires gives you 90% of the traction you'd get with AWD on snow tires and for the ultimate in winter traction you want AWD on snow tires.
90% is still less. And since you said:

"We're talking about safety and so we have to be careful about what we say or someone could make a bad decision that leads to an accident."

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=30

Now you're saying safety isn't the first priority. Can you explain the conflict?
boltjaM3s commented:
August 16, 2012, 7:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
There's a third reason: For the less than 1% of us that actually need AWD and snow tires because we live on unplowed roads in the mountains.

Me included; please don't assume we don't exist.
My apologies, but most who can afford a nimble $50,000 German luxury car known for its RWD prowess would also own an AWD SUV or wagon for such conditions. Thought being that a 3 Series is not known to be the perfect blizzard vehicle.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
August 16, 2012, 7:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
90% is still less. And since you said:

"We're talking about safety and so we have to be careful about what we say or someone could make a bad decision that leads to an accident."

Now you're saying safety isn't the first priority. Can you explain the conflict?
First off, this isn't a Snow Tires vs. All Seasons thread. It's a thread about XDrive owners concerned about ride height, not about 'safety' but rather about cosmetics. The OP is getting snow tires, so no conflict there.

In the other thread, the conflict was about those who think XDrive + All Seasons are superior in the snow than RWD + Snow Tires which is incorrect. It's all about the snow tires when it comes to safety. When it comes to cosmetics for someone who admits to only facing 3 days of harsh winter, sticking with RWD is a no brainer and putting Snow Tires on is a terrific hip-pocket insurance policy.

The one sentence summary is: Everyone facing winter conditions should have Snow Tires, AWD is just a bonus, not the traction solution.

We good now?

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
August 16, 2012, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
First off, this isn't a Snow Tires vs. All Seasons thread. It's a thread about XDrive owners concerned about ride height, not about 'safety' but rather about cosmetics. The OP is getting snow tires, so no conflict there.
Cosmetics are now taking a front seat to safety? So safety is no longer a concern?
boltjaM3s commented:
August 16, 2012, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Cosmetics are now taking a front seat to safety? So safety is no longer a concern?
I don't know why you're directing this at me as I have a one-week-old RWD F30 which I intend to fit with Snow Tires as it's safer than having an XDrive F30 on All Seasons and we don't get hammered with snow and untreated surfaces in New Jersey.

I don't own an XDrive any longer so I cannot comment on the F30 cosmetic issue related to the 10mm in ride height. You have to ask that question to those owners. My experience is that you can't see the 10mm and thus it's a non-issue. It's 1/3 of an inch, less than the thickness of an iPhone 4.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
August 16, 2012, 11:16 pm

I run high performance all seasons on both cars (one AWD and one RWD) and have no intention of getting winter tires. Of course when it snows I leave the cars in the garage.

CA
VLing commented:
August 17, 2012, 12:26 am

This thread is all about different opinions. No right or wrong whether one prefers a RWD or xDrive. I am just glad that for the MY2013, there is a choice when you consider buying or leasing an "F30 Sedan". For MY2012 you did not have a choice.

All Season or Snow Tires are a different debate; primarily for those who live in area where it snowy at some point during the year. If you live in a climate where you never see snow, like SoCAL, where I use to live, the tire debate in my opinion is a moot point!

I'm out......
sf_loft commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:09 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
VLing commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post

Very good find. Thanks for posting that video.
Michael Schott commented:
August 17, 2012, 8:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
See my response to WJGreer.
See BJ's posts above. I totally agree with him. If safety in bad weather is your concern, why are you driving a BMW 3 series? It's not my primary concern.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 8:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
See BJ's posts above. I totally agree with him. If safety in bad weather is your concern, why are you driving a BMW 3 series? It's not my primary concern.
LOL! I wasn't the one who made safety the primary concern. That would be BJ (and others). That's why I'm holding his feet to the fire now.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 8:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I don't know why you're directing this at me as I have a one-week-old RWD F30 which I intend to fit with Snow Tires as it's safer than having an XDrive F30 on All Seasons and we don't get hammered with snow and untreated surfaces in New Jersey.
Wait a minute? Now safety is the primary issue again? Would please make up your mind?
Michael Schott commented:
August 17, 2012, 8:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
LOL! I wasn't the one who made safety the primary concern. That would be BJ (and others). That's why I'm holding his feet to the fire now.
BJ's original premise was about handling with RWD and winter tires vs AWD but he's talking about traction. You are the one who pushed safety as the primary factor. BJ and I disagree. You are using semantics as the point of your argument. My point and BJ's are that we are satisfied with RWD and winter tires in inclement weather. I have no frickin idea as to your point.
OBS3SSION commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
Very good find. Thanks for posting that video.
Yes, that really drives home the point between tire types. And that nothing beats winter tires for winter driving. However, they also need to do a comparo for the same car in two drive formats, such as a 328i and a 328xi with identical winter tires and see what differences there are, if any, between the three tests. That way we can know for sure if AWD helps with anything other than acceleration tests.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
BJ's original premise was about handling with RWD and winter tires vs AWD but he's talking about traction. You are the one who pushed safety as the primary factor. BJ and I disagree. You are using semantics as the point of your argument. My point and BJ's are that we are satisfied with RWD and winter tires in inclement weather. I have no frickin idea as to your point.
Michael, the guy just wants to fight, not sure why when his point is apples and oranges as pertains to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
LOL! I wasn't the one who made safety the primary concern. That would be BJ (and others). That's why I'm holding his feet to the fire now.
First off, there's no "feet to the fire" here as I (and others) have been very consistent. The other thread you keep referencing was where you got your panties in a bunch and it's because you're wrong and giving bad advice.

When it comes to winter safety, nothing is more important than swapping All Seasons over to Snow Tires. That can make a 100% difference in cornering, acceleration, and stopping power (see helpful videos posted earlier) whereas keeping the All Seasons on the car and adding XDrive will have a 0% difference and have you skidding and sliding unnecessarily. The combination of Snow Tires and XDrive is the ultimate in safety, but only truly necessary if you live in the snow belt and/or have a steep hill to climb and one can easily argue that the F30 is the wrong car for people in either of those conditions.

Here's a cheat sheet of winter safety in priority order:

Snow Tires + XDrive = safest possible option
Snow Tires + RWD = next safest option, marginally
All Seasons + XDrive = better but not safe enough
All Seasons + RWD = not safe
Summer Tires + XDrive = very unsafe
Summer Tires + RWD = suicide

These are facts, these are not debatable. There are dozens of websites and magazine articles from true experts on the subject, no need to trust me or not, do the research. Where things get dangerous is if someone comes into a thread on this subject and starts spouting off about how "his buddy" didn't like swapping into Snow Tires and chose a Subaru AWD on All Seasons and "thought it was the same thing" and if someone in a thread takes that as gospel and puts himself and family at risk. Smoking causes lung cancer. Your buddy might have smoked 3 packs a day for 50 years, doesn't mean its safe.

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
First off, there's no "feet to the fire" here as I (and others) have been very consistent.
Uh, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The other thread you keep referencing was where you got your panties in a bunch and it's because you're wrong and giving bad advice.
I was "wrong" only in the context if safety is the primary concern. Since it wasn't I couldn't be wrong. Please make up your mind: Is safety the primary concern or not? If it's not then I don't want to hear anything more about snow tires being safer than all seasons. Take a stand and stick with it.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post

I was "wrong" only in the context if safety is the primary concern. Since it wasn't I couldn't be wrong. Please make up your mind: Is safety the primary concern or not? If it's not then I don't want to hear anything more about snow tires being safer than all seasons. Take a stand and stick with it.
This is supposed to be a thread about ride height and it's being hijacked unnecessarily. I'll end this nonsense thusly:

When it comes to winter driving in a high-performance German luxury car that isn't intended to be a snow beast to begin with, safety always comes first. "Safety", however, is a big variable depending upon where you live. This discussion with someone living in Virginia is very different than having this discussion with someone in Minnesota.

No mater how much you want to distract from the point, the heart of this issue is the answer to this question:

"Are there any circumstances in winter weather where having XDrive and All Seasons is better than having RWD and Snow Tires?"

And the answer to that question is:

"No."

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
BJ's original premise was about handling with RWD and winter tires vs AWD but he's talking about traction. You are the one who pushed safety as the primary factor. BJ and I disagree. You are using semantics as the point of your argument. My point and BJ's are that we are satisfied with RWD and winter tires in inclement weather. I have no frickin idea as to your point.
Uh no. Recall I'm the guy who has recommended AWD with all seasons as a reasonable tradeoff knowing it's not the safest combination. I'm the guy who understands there are compromises to be made. And when I voice this some asshat comes back with something like:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=18

If safety is not the primary consideration the point of the above post is???
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 9:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This is supposed to be a thread about ride height and it's being hijacked unnecessarily. I'll end this nonsense thusly:
Like the RWD with snow tires guys I just want to be certain the OP knows that he's not buying the safest combination (which would be AWD with snow tires). Given you place safety first and foremost I fail to see why you would object to my alerting the OP to this.
Michael Schott commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Uh no. Recall I'm the guy who has recommended AWD with all seasons as a reasonable tradeoff knowing it's not the safest combination. I'm the guy who understands there are compromises to be made. And when I voice this some asshat comes back with something like:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=18

If safety is not the primary consideration the point of the above post is???
You are missing the point that many of us do not want to compromise by going to AWD and are more than happy in the winter with RWD and winter tires. It's not that hard to understand yet you keep beating the same dead horse.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Like the RWD with snow tires guys I just want to be certain the OP knows that he's not buying the safest combination (which would be AWD with snow tires). Given you place safety first and foremost I fail to see why you would object to my alerting the OP to this.


Stare at this and tell us about your childhood.

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are missing the point that many of us do not want to compromise by going to AWD and are more than happy in the winter with RWD and winter tires.
No, I'm not missing this point. I have never, ever attempted to steer someone who wants RWD away from their decision. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about the RWD guys who attempt to convert AWD decisions into RWD with snow tire decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's not that hard to understand yet you keep beating the same dead horse.
Perhaps if the RWD with snow tires would stop trying to persuade those who have decided on AWD to go with RWD and snow instead we could let this horse lie.
BruceOmega commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:37 am

I know this thread started out as the difference in ride height, but I took the context to be confirmation that there is a difference in suspensions between XDrive and RWD when both have M Adaptive Suspension.

Hopefully this is in the same context as I would like to better understand the differences between AWD and RWD with M Adaptive Suspension for driving conditions in general, not just limited to inclement weather.

Specifically, am interested in similarities and differences between F-30 M Sport AWD and RWD vehicles where both are equipped with the Dynamic Handling Package, Sport AT, and the same 18" wheels and mixed performance tires (save for differences in offset). I understand the XDrive is not lowered 10mm and apparently that means it does not have the stiffer springs of RWD. I expect this has to be mostly conjecture at this point until availability allows a back to back driving comparison.

This is for driving on public roads, not the track.

I have a feeling for how the physics is different going around a corner, AWD has a variable combination of pull / push and RWD is push. I've read where the electronic stability controls make use of the availability of pull and push on AWD that is somewhat different than how it works with RWD push. I'm aware of the classic differences in weight, weight distribution, drive train inertia, etc.

Examples of things I am interested in are:
• In normal, non aggressive driving, what are the differences / degree of differences in driving feel, response, and agility?
• In aggressive driving on public roads, like twisty back roads in West Virginia, what are the differences?
• What is the effect of wet roads on the differences?
• Does the cornering technique for AWD differ from that for RWD?

Thanks
Bruce
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The combination of Snow Tires and XDrive is the ultimate in safety, but only truly necessary if you live in the snow belt and/or have a steep hill to climb and one can easily argue that the F30 is the wrong car for people in either of those conditions.

BJ
I am not here to take the side, but isn't this the kind of conditions Vling talked about? A few days of the year he has to deal with black ice up and down the hill.

His dealer talked him out of ordering an xdrive, supposedly saved him $2,000, and you totally agreed with the dealer. I don't recall you suggested to him that he should park his RWD in the garage during those days, and walk in the snow, then climb up and slide down the hill on black ice, with his bare feet, backwards...like our great grandparents used to do...

I do see some contradiction here.
floydarogers commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceOmega View Post
• Does the cornering technique for AWD differ from that for RWD?
Because it's almost impossible to get into a power-on oversteer condition, you can be more free to use all your throttle/power a bit earlier coming out of a turn.
windsor027 commented:
August 17, 2012, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Because it's almost impossible to get into a power-on oversteer condition, you can be more free to use all your throttle/power a bit earlier coming out of a turn.
i would not say impossible, some AWD cars are setup for power on oversteer, all rally cars for example. Even in a RWD car if you don't turn traction control off you can't really power slide from a corner.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceOmega View Post
I know this thread started out as the difference in ride height, but I took the context to be confirmation that there is a difference in suspensions between XDrive and RWD when both have M Adaptive Suspension.

Hopefully this is in the same context as I would like to better understand the differences between AWD and RWD with M Adaptive Suspension for driving conditions in general, not just limited to inclement weather.

Specifically, am interested in similarities and differences between F-30 M Sport AWD and RWD vehicles where both are equipped with the Dynamic Handling Package, Sport AT, and the same 18" wheels and mixed performance tires (save for differences in offset). I understand the XDrive is not lowered 10mm and apparently that means it does not have the stiffer springs of RWD. I expect this has to be mostly conjecture at this point until availability allows a back to back driving comparison.

This is for driving on public roads, not the track.

I have a feeling for how the physics is different going around a corner, AWD has a variable combination of pull / push and RWD is push. I've read where the electronic stability controls make use of the availability of pull and push on AWD that is somewhat different than how it works with RWD push. I'm aware of the classic differences in weight, weight distribution, drive train inertia, etc.

Examples of things I am interested in are:
• In normal, non aggressive driving, what are the differences / degree of differences in driving feel, response, and agility?
• In aggressive driving on public roads, like twisty back roads in West Virginia, what are the differences?
• What is the effect of wet roads on the differences?
• Does the cornering technique for AWD differ from that for RWD?
The AWD car is going to give you 95% of the RWD car. For driving on public roads and within the limits of the law the AWD will be just as fun to drive as the RWD car. I've driven both and the RWD with sports suspension definitely feels different. And gives one the illusion they're taking a corner faster. But that's all it is: An illusion. If you live in an inclement weather area I recommend considering the AWD. If not RWD would be the preferred option.
captainaudio commented:
August 17, 2012, 11:41 am

There is no question that if you are going to be driving in winter conditions you need dedicated winter tires.
sf_loft commented:
August 17, 2012, 11:42 am

Regarding AWD and all-seasons, I had no problems making trips to lake Tahoe for ski trips. To get to the resorts you had to go through a mountain pass with a cliff on one side, changing elevation, ice and sleet, and heavy snow fall. I was in my G35x at the time with all-seasons, got through the check point while others were forced to put on chains, and I had no issues or scary moments. The check point was simply looking for M+S rated tires on AWD cars as a minimum to allow passage without chains. RWD / FWD cars, even with snow tires, had to put on chains. speeds were 10-20mph through the weather and the surface was fresh powder mixed with slush and mud and some icy patches.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
There is no question that if you are going to be driving in winter conditions you need dedicated winter tires.
No, you don't. I drive in winter conditions with all seasons. Haven't had any problems. Snow tires are not necessary.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 12:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
No, I'm not missing this point. I have never, ever attempted to steer someone who wants RWD away from their decision. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about the RWD guys who attempt to convert AWD decisions into RWD with snow tire decisions.

Perhaps if the RWD with snow tires would stop trying to persuade those who have decided on AWD to go with RWD and snow instead we could let this horse lie.
The ONLY people we'd EVER sway away from AWD are the people who live in a snowy environment and want XDrive as a magic shortcut around the chore of putting on Snow Tires. To those either/or people we'd present the case that what they should instead be doing is skipping XDrive and getting a set of Snow Tires with that money as it's far safer.

For anyone else who wants AWD it's a great decision. Dry weather, great. Wet weather, great. Snowy weather as an extra precaution to snow tires, great. It's just that XDrive is not a magic shortcut around Snow Tires for those in snowy environments.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 12:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am not here to take the side, but isn't this the kind of conditions Vling talked about? A few days of the year he has to deal with black ice up and down the hill.

His dealer talked him out of ordering an xdrive, supposedly saved him $2,000, and you totally agreed with the dealer. I don't recall you suggested to him that he should park his RWD in the garage during those days, and walk in the snow, then climb up and slide down the hill on black ice, with his bare feet, backwards...like our great grandparents used to do...

I do see some contradiction here.
No.

He pointed out that his wife had an AWD vehicle that he could use for those 3 days that the conditions were bad. So, like me, he doesn't have to have XDrive and he can put on Snow Tires for the handful of days that it's wintry but not treacherous.

And I have significant first-hand experience here in NH which has brutal winters. '04 Acura TL FWD + All Seasons was below average. '07 E93 RWD + Snow Tires blew the Acura away, night-and-day, fantastic traction and braking, proof-positive that RWD on Snow Tires pwn FWD on All Seasons. '09 E90 XDrive + Snow Tires just a tad better than the E93 RWD, I'd say maybe a 10% difference in turns and ability to creep up a hill.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 12:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Regarding AWD and all-seasons, I had no problems making trips to lake Tahoe for ski trips. To get to the resorts you had to go through a mountain pass with a cliff on one side, changing elevation, ice and sleet, and heavy snow fall. I was in my G35x at the time with all-seasons, got through the check point while others were forced to put on chains, and I had no issues or scary moments. The check point was simply looking for M+S rated tires on AWD cars as a minimum to allow passage without chains. RWD / FWD cars, even with snow tires, had to put on chains. speeds were 10-20mph through the weather and the surface was fresh powder mixed with slush and mud and some icy patches.
Yeah forgot, people here only care about AWD so when they go up the snow country a few times a year, they don't have to be bothered with chains.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
No, you don't. I drive in winter conditions with all seasons. Haven't had any problems. Snow tires are not necessary.
1. You were lucky.

2. You drive a friggin' 100,000 pound SUV designed for off-roading.

We're talking about an F30 designed for performance enthusiasm on smooth warm roads, not an X5. Take this argument to the BMW Truck subforum where perhaps your experience has some merit.

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The ONLY people we'd EVER sway away from AWD are the people who live in a snowy environment and want XDrive as a magic shortcut around the chore of putting on Snow Tires. To those either/or people we'd present the case that what they should instead be doing is skipping XDrive and getting a set of Snow Tires with that money as it's far safer.
Thus you're putting safety first. AWD with snow tires is safer than RWD with snow tires. Since you've put safety as the primary criteria RWD with snow tires isn't an option when there's a safer alternative.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
1. You were lucky.
Or all seasons aren't nearly the problem the RWD with snow tire advocates would have us believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
2. You drive a friggin' 100,000 pound SUV designed for off-roading.
I drive an X5 and have owned an E46 330xi, E90 330xi, and an E46 328i. I have experience driving both AWD and RWD BMWs in inclement weather.
captainaudio commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:11 pm

I just purchased a set of Continental Extreme Contact DWS for the 335i. They are touted as the next best thing to dedicated snow tires in light snow. There is little chance that they will ever be driven in snow but there is a possibilithy that I do get caught out in the winter and it begins snowing in which case I will carefully drive home. If I have to go out on a day when it looks like there is a possibility of snow I will use the 750i which is AWD,
I don't think I have driven on snow covered roads in the last 10 years,

CA
floydarogers commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
i would not say impossible, ....
I hate to actually live up to my "pedant" signature, but did you notice the word "almost" that I wrote before the word "impossible"?
sr5959 commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Thus you're putting safety first. AWD with snow tires is safer than RWD with snow tires. Since you've put safety as the primary criteria RWD with snow tires isn't an option when there's a safer alternative.
In my experience driving in snow/ice, 90% of the problems occur when braking, and AWD doesn't help at all in these situations. Bear in mind before I got my F30 my last 4 vehicles were SUVs with AWD.

I think the best technique in these conditions is to go slow and use lower gears rather than brakes as far as possible.
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 1:55 pm

If we combine both the ride height and AWD issues, the answer seems to be, if you are brain washed into AWD a must for you, but like a lower body height to look cool, get an Audi A4 Quattro.

If you are level headed, get an RWD 3 with the DHP for $1,000 for the look and the best fun driving experience 90% time of the year, use snow tires the rest of the year, and walk up the hill during that three days of the year when there is black ice.

Can't have the cake and eat it too.
bmw325 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
I originally wanted to order a 2013 F30 Sedan xDrive. Both of my current vehicles (Honda) are all wheel drive and wanted the same assurance that I would be able to get up the hill to my house; during the few days of black ice and few inches of snow we get in the Pacific Northwest.

The dealer CA talked me out of the xDrive and here was his logic:

1) You don't need xDrive that often and you should drive your other all wheel drive on the days you need get up that hill.
2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD
3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower.
4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car.

Since there was no F30 Sedan xDrive to test in 2012 (new for 2013) I could not evaluate the RWD verses the xDrive. But to me the RWD has a perfect 50/50 balance and did not know whether it would be the same for the xDrive.

Decided the go with the RWD and the $2k difference was applied to get the lighting package and HK sound.
No regrets.....
Wow smart sales guy. Most I've met relentlessly push xdrive. I think most people get it cause they think they won't need snow tires if they get it. And in the northeast xdrive is all they stock now.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If we combine both the ride height and AWD issues, the answer seems to be, if you are brain washed into AWD a must for you, but like a lower body height to look cool, get an Audi A4 Quattro.

If you are level headed, get an RWD 3 with the DHP for $1,000 for the look and the best fun driving experience 90% time of the year, use snow tires the rest of the year, and walk up the hill during that three days of the year when there is black ice.

Can't have the cake and eat it too.
So you're saying AWD people are brainwashed and level headed people choose RWD?
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
In my experience driving in snow/ice, 90% of the problems occur when braking, and AWD doesn't help at all in these situations. Bear in mind before I got my F30 my last 4 vehicles were SUVs with AWD.
I don't think anyone has said it does when it comes to braking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
I think the best technique in these conditions is to go slow and use lower gears rather than brakes as far as possible.
I agree with the take it slow. Drive for conditions, regardless of tire type, and you'll be fine.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
Wow smart sales guy. Most I've met relentlessly push xdrive. I think most people get it cause they think they won't need snow tires if they get it. And in the northeast xdrive is all they stock now.
Smart guy for what? For the average driver or anyone driving on public roads and doing so within the law what does RWD provide over AWD?
  • Slightly better gas mileage? If you're concerned about 1 MPG better gas mileage I suggest you're looking at the wrong vehicle. Perhaps a Prius would be more appropriate.
  • Lower weight? Sorry, you're not going to feel it no matter how many times you try to tell yourself you can.
  • Slow speed? On public roads and driving within the constraints of those roads, safety, law, and most people's driving ability (including many of those advocating RWD here) both cars will be more than capable. You're not as good as you think you are (this is one area BJ and I agree completely).
So instead of buying a car which could be driven in the conditions he originally laid out he now has decided to keep it in the garage under such circumstances and rely on an alternative vehicle and for what? 1 MPG better mileage? That doesn't sound like it was as smart of a move as you'd have us believe.

Now this is not to say if he prefers the RWD he shouldn't buy it. It is his car. But by objective measures there really is little difference between the two.
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
So you're saying AWD people are brainwashed and level headed people choose RWD?
For the general public yes. There are those who truly understand the benefit of AWD, for tracking purpose.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
For the general public yes. There are those who truly understand the benefit of AWD, for tracking purpose.
Wow! Is it any wonder why non-BMW owners feel BMW owners are a bunch of arrogant pricks? You might want to check out the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Wow! Is it any wonder why non-BMW owners feel BMW owners are a bunch of arrogant pricks? You might want to check out the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
Where did I say anything about BMW owners understand AWD? Most BMW drivers today are no less ignorant than other drivers when it comes to understanding the technicals.
WillInDenver commented:
August 17, 2012, 3:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
and walk up the hill during that three days of the year when there is black ice.
You may never have tried to walk up a hill covered in black ice - you might have a better time getting up it in the RWD car!
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post

Wow! Is it any wonder why non-BMW owners feel BMW owners are a bunch of arrogant pricks?
Of course they do. We pay a lot for them to feel that way.

BMW. The Ultimate Status Machine. Embrace The Stereotype®.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 3:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
So you're saying AWD people are brainwashed and level headed people choose RWD?
Not at all. You can look at this two ways:

Status-Symbol: Those who view a BMW this way will get XDrive because it's dirty, inconvenient work to get the all seasons swapped to snow tires.

Performance Enthusiast: Those who view a BMW this way will never get XDrive because the only reason they own the thing to begin with is it's fantastic RWD tendencies and they're car-savvy enough to know that the snow tire swap is just another mod, just another prerequisite of ownership.

BJ
Rmnoonan commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:18 pm

As potentially snotty as it may sound, I agree with BJ.. Got the winter wheels and tires in my garage before I even have the car.
Rmnoonan commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:21 pm

Additional comment, driving both wad and rwd back to back I think the awd cars are noticeably more clunky and heavy feeling.... That was an e90 test for me, not f30.
WillInDenver commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:23 pm

In a probably vain attempt to move back to the OP topic -

As much as I think the suspension looks better a little lower on most BMWs, I think there is solid logic - even beyond the limitations created by the RWD design - to a little more clearance and room in the wheelwells on an AWD car.

I get huge drifts of snow at the end of my driveway in winter when the plows come by, and I sometimes feel like I am going to tear the air dam off of my E60 going over them. And the slush really does accumulate in the wheelwells.
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not at all. You can look at this two ways:

Status-Symbol: Those who view a BMW this way will get XDrive because it's dirty, inconvenient work to get the all seasons swapped to snow tires.

Performance Enthusiast: Those who view a BMW this way will never get XDrive because the only reason they own the thing to begin with is it's fantastic RWD tendencies and they're car-savvy enough to know that the snow tire swap is just another mod, just another prerequisite of ownership.

BJ
Wait a second, does that not make you a non-status-symbol-seeking, but enthusiast driver?

You need to make up your mind BJ. The 99% of our population depend on your clear definition to get on with their lives.
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
You may never have tried to walk up a hill covered in black ice - you might have a better time getting up it in the RWD car!
I did once fall all the way down a hill covered with black ice, after my RWD got stuck on the top of it.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Where did I say anything about BMW owners understand AWD? Most BMW drivers today are no less ignorant than other drivers when it comes to understanding the technicals.
I was referring specifically to you.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not at all. You can look at this two ways:

Status-Symbol: Those who view a BMW this way will get XDrive because it's dirty, inconvenient work to get the all seasons swapped to snow tires.

Performance Enthusiast: Those who view a BMW this way will never get XDrive because the only reason they own the thing to begin with is it's fantastic RWD tendencies and they're car-savvy enough to know that the snow tire swap is just another mod, just another prerequisite of ownership.
Or three:

Performance Enthusiast: One who enjoys driving a car and buys a BMW because of its driving characteristics but understands the AWD version provides almost all of the enjoyment an enthusiast would want out of a car with little negative.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmnoonan View Post
Additional comment, driving both wad and rwd back to back I think the awd cars are noticeably more clunky and heavy feeling.... That was an e90 test for me, not f30.
This was not my experience comparing a 1999 328i and 2001 330xi (which I owned at the same time) and a 2006 330xi (mine) and my friends 2006 330i (with sport package). Sport package definitely felt sportier but my 330xi didn't feel heavier.
boltjaM3s commented:
August 17, 2012, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Wait a second, does that not make you a non-status-symbol-seeking, but enthusiast driver?

You need to make up your mind BJ. The 99% of our population depend on your clear definition to get on with their lives.
I'm the rarest-of-the-rare; a status enthusiast with performance-seeking tendencies.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 5:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I was referring specifically to you.
Can't compete with you for sure.
dtc100 commented:
August 17, 2012, 5:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm the rarest-of-the-rare; a status enthusiast with performance-seeking tendencies.

BJ
I don't think you can impress the Wal-Mart crowd with a set of ugly snow tires.
sunny5280 commented:
August 17, 2012, 5:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Can't compete with you for sure.
Surely you can think of something better than "I know you are but what am I"?
VLing commented:
August 17, 2012, 11:06 pm

Okay. I am back in this debate....

My understand is the xDrive system on the BMW is not full time 4WD, thus the more appropriate name AWD.

One of the reasons I decided to purchase the RWD, was both of my current vehicles (not BMW) are AWD. Both have a light on the dash that flashes when the sensor in the system, senses slipping in one of front wheels, then compensates for that condition, by activating the AWD on the rear wheels. Well, that sensor flash has only happened once on my 2007 AWD and not yet on my 2011. I live in the Pacific Northwest. It has not flashed in the rain (trust me it rains here) and only once under black ice conditions.

After wondering about that, I questioned why do I need AWD on a Sports Sedan that I am buying? I am basically buying it; because it is a drivers car and not a transportation appliance like my current AWDs. I've owned three BMW back in the 80s and 90s and remembered how much more fun it was to drive a superior handling and sporty RWD; unlike the FWD and AWD I have driven the past few decades. I am not going to ruin that "back to the future" driving experience, by purchasing another AWD that I really don't want or need.

I am going to enjoy my BMW Sport Line with RWD 362 days a year. No all season or snow tires for me "ever" on my new ride. It will be parked in my garage three days a year. BTW...it is 100 degrees here in Portland, OR today, and would like to be driving my RWD with performance tires today; but I will have to wait until mid-Sept for delivery.

I am out.....again!
floydarogers commented:
August 18, 2012, 2:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
My understand is the xDrive system on the BMW is not full time 4WD, thus the more appropriate name AWD.
No. Full-time 4WD goes by the name AWD. 4WD designates a system that doesn't have a center differential, and can be only used part time as a result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
One of the reasons I decided to purchase the RWD, was both of my current vehicles (not BMW) are AWD. Both have a light on the dash that flashes when the sensor in the system, senses slipping in one of front wheels, then compensates for that condition, by activating the AWD on the rear wheels. Well, that sensor flash has only happened once on my 2007 AWD and not yet on my 2011. I live in the Pacific Northwest. It has not flashed in the rain (trust me it rains here) and only once under black ice conditions.
You're confused about what the DSC light indicates. Look it up and see what it does.
VLing commented:
August 18, 2012, 4:01 am

[QUOTE=f[B]loydarogers[/B];7017956]No. Full-time 4WD goes by the name AWD. 4WD designates a system that doesn't have a center differential, and can be only used part time as a result.

You are not correct about this:
AWD can be all four wheel get power all of the time - Subaru Symmetrical AWD
AWD can be FWD most of the time and when loss of traction Rear wheels kick in - Honda Real-time
AWD can be RWD most of the time and when loss of traction Front wheels kick in - BMW xDrive

The term AWD is not a standard term that means one type of system.

Your 4WD is also not correct because there are many 4WD systems and you are only referring to one type.


You're confused about what the DSC light indicates. Look it up and see what it does.[/QUOTE


The DSC light...did I say DSC light. What is a DSC light. How do know I am confused. How do you know I have a DSC light in my two AWD vehicles.

The net of my statement was I prefer RWD over AWD or 4WD. Am I wrong about that also?
dtc100 commented:
August 18, 2012, 8:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
Well, that sensor flash has only happened once on my 2007 AWD and not yet on my 2011. I live in the Pacific Northwest. It has not flashed in the rain (trust me it rains here) and only once under black ice conditions.
I don't know how some of you drive, but where I am, it never snows, and hardly rains, but I have made my DSC flash many times.

Just trying to have Vling eat his words.
sunny5280 commented:
August 18, 2012, 8:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
My understand is the xDrive system on the BMW is not full time 4WD, thus the more appropriate name AWD.
Your understanding is incorrect. The BMW AWD system is a full time system with a split of 40% front and 60% rear making it feel like a RWD car. The amount of power transferred changes based on surface conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
After wondering about that, I questioned why do I need AWD on a Sports Sedan that I am buying? I am basically buying it; because it is a drivers car and not a transportation appliance like my current AWDs. I've owned three BMW back in the 80s and 90s and remembered how much more fun it was to drive a superior handling and sporty RWD; unlike the FWD and AWD I have driven the past few decades. I am not going to ruin that "back to the future" driving experience, by purchasing another AWD that I really don't want or need.
While I'm not trying to say you made the wrong decision I have to ask what you'd have lost by buying an AWD car. From your original post:
  • 2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD While true the cost of buying a second set of wheels and tires for the RWD essentially negates this cost difference. Add in the hassle of having to store and change them out a couple of times a year and the $2K isn't all that bad.
  • 3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower. As you said 1MPG isn't enough to be a deciding factor. Your driving habits will better influence your fuel economy than the drive train.
  • 4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car. Yes, and on the street you'll never notice it. I know most people advocating RWD think they can tell the difference but they can't.

It's my opinion you'd have just as much fun driving either car. Most people do not possess the necessary skill to drive either vehicle to their limits. I've owned RWD BMWs before and I now own AWD BMWs. I've had just as much pleasure driving the AWD cars as I have the RWD ones.

Anyway enjoy your new car!
dtc100 commented:
August 18, 2012, 9:30 am

I usually try not to cause buyer's remorse, but since you have started it long ago, let me just add that, one can usually lease an xdrive 3 series for less than a RWD 3, BMW tends to offer much more stronger residual and lower rate, totally negate the price difference, often makes an xdrive cheaper.
VLing commented:
August 18, 2012, 10:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. The BMW AWD system is a full time system with a split of 40% front and 60% rear making it feel like a RWD car. The amount of power transferred changes based on surface conditions.



While I'm not trying to say you made the wrong decision I have to ask what you'd have lost by buying an AWD car. From your original post:
  • 2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD While true the cost of buying a second set of wheels and tires for the RWD essentially negates this cost difference. Add in the hassle of having to store and change them out a couple of times a year and the $2K isn't all that bad.
  • 3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower. As you said 1MPG isn't enough to be a deciding factor. Your driving habits will better influence your fuel economy than the drive train.
  • 4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car. Yes, and on the street you'll never notice it. I know most people advocating RWD think they can tell the difference but they can't.

It's my opinion you'd have just as much fun driving either car. Most people do not possess the necessary skill to drive either vehicle to their limits. I've owned RWD BMWs before and I now own AWD BMWs. I've had just as much pleasure driving the AWD cars as I have the RWD ones.

Anyway enjoy your new car!
Yes, your point about 40/60 F/R bias is correct. I should have stated it differently in that the system will shift the bias based on slippage of the one of the wheels.
floydarogers commented:
August 18, 2012, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
The DSC light...did I say DSC light. What is a DSC light. How do know I am confused. How do you know I have a DSC light in my two AWD vehicles.
I didn't see the parenthetical "not BMW" comment. However, you should know what DSC means as you have a BMW - you should have read the manual by this time. On a BMW, the DSC light is analogous to the light you mentioned, and will illuminate if wheel slippage occurs and the system (including xDrive) is activated to maintain control of the car.

As far as AWD vs. 4WD, go read the wikipedia article.

I'm out
bmw325 commented:
August 18, 2012, 12:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. The BMW AWD system is a full time system with a split of 40% front and 60% rear making it feel like a RWD car. The amount of power transferred changes based on surface conditions.



While I'm not trying to say you made the wrong decision I have to ask what you'd have lost by buying an AWD car. From your original post:
  • 2) The xDrive was $2K more than the RWD While true the cost of buying a second set of wheels and tires for the RWD essentially negates this cost difference. Add in the hassle of having to store and change them out a couple of times a year and the $2K isn't all that bad.
  • 3) You will get lower MPG in the xDrive. He said 2-3 MPG lower. However the EPA just tested the xDrive and it actually test 1 MPG lower. As you said 1MPG isn't enough to be a deciding factor. Your driving habits will better influence your fuel economy than the drive train.
  • 4) xDrive will add 230 lbs to the weight of the car. Yes, and on the street you'll never notice it. I know most people advocating RWD think they can tell the difference but they can't.

It's my opinion you'd have just as much fun driving either car. Most people do not possess the necessary skill to drive either vehicle to their limits. I've owned RWD BMWs before and I now own AWD BMWs. I've had just as much pleasure driving the AWD cars as I have the RWD ones.

Anyway enjoy your new car!
Good points but:
-tires are important and if you're buying awd for safety reasons you should consider snow tires in either case. So not having to change the tires with awd is a bit of a red herring. If you actually do get in a situation could make/break it , tires become even more important. For people who need awd to get up a steep driveway in winter, again, it's really important (Probably the most commo. Reason I've seen for getting awd)
-agree that no sensible person is going to push the car to the limit on public roads. But one thing that can safely be appreciated is a car that feels more playful and tossable. Added weight and awd hardware take away from that experience. 230 pounds is still a lot...it takes a lot of engineering and money to save that weight. Think of how much carbon fiber or aluminum would have to be used to save that amount.
In the end though I think any modern car with the right tires can handle any situation you'd encounter on paved roads so get what makes you happy. Awd for some is like a kind of security blanket I guess.
sunny5280 commented:
August 18, 2012, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
-agree that no sensible person is going to push the car to the limit on public roads. But one thing that can safely be appreciated is a car that feels more playful and tossable. Added weight and awd hardware take away from that experience. 230 pounds is still a lot...it takes a lot of engineering and money to save that weight. Think of how much carbon fiber or aluminum would have to be used to save that amount.
Having owned both an RWD and AWD E46 the extra weight from the AWD system didn't take away from the driving enjoyment of the AWD car. Having owned an AWD 330 E90 and driven my friends RWD 330 E90 (with sport package) the extra weight of the AWD car didn't make it any less fun to drive. While 230 pounds is nothing to sneeze at both drivetrains were a blast to drive. I was not wanting for less weight, more "tossability" out of the AWD car.
captainaudio commented:
August 18, 2012, 5:20 pm

With dedicated winter tires in an area like New York City there will be a lot of days during the winter months where you will not be driving in winter tire conditions. Last winter for example we got almost no snow and very few very cold days. The temperature can range from the high 20s to the 50s or 60s in the space of a few days. If you are in a situation like mine where you can avoid taking the car out in the snow AWD and all seasons are a very good choice for winter. In an area like the one I grew up in in Western New York snow tires are a must if you depend on the car to get you around during the winter months,

CA
Zeichen311 commented:
August 18, 2012, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLing View Post
Yes, your point about 40/60 F/R bias is correct. I should have stated it differently in that the system will shift the bias based on slippage of the one of the wheels.
A number of people have mentioned torque redistribution based on wheel slippage. It's important to note that xDrive is a lot more sophisticated than that. The system can proactively adjust F/R torque bias based on the same sensor inputs monitored by the DSC system (yaw rate, steering angle, longitudinal/lateral acceleration and so on) before wheels even begin to slip. The adjustment are continual and all but undetectable until you reach the limits, when you can sense what's going on if you're looking for it. Quite impressive, really, and makes the car amazingly nimble.
voip-ninja commented:
August 18, 2012, 6:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I usually try not to cause buyer's remorse, but since you have started it long ago, let me just add that, one can usually lease an xdrive 3 series for less than a RWD 3, BMW tends to offer much more stronger residual and lower rate, totally negate the price difference, often makes an xdrive cheaper.
Well, X-drive has the same money factor and residual as the RWD car, so the only way it would be cheaper is if the dealer was willing to substantially discount it, just because it's an x-drive car, which I don't think to be particularly likely.

If I lived in California or the pacific northwest (or anywhere in the south) I would not even think about x-drive... I probably would not even get it if I lived in the NE as the roads in most areas get plowed very quickly and snow tires will get you by.

Living in the snow belt it's just not worth the headache of NOT getting it... even if there are only a handful of times a year when you really need it.

I picked my x-drive 328i with adaptive-M today and I have no regrets. It drives great. The RWD with sport package might have marginally better handling but I doubt it. Placebo affect becomes a bigger issue where the driver is likely to believe that the car he wants to be better is the one that is driving better.
dtc100 commented:
August 18, 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, X-drive has the same money factor and residual as the RWD car, so the only way it would be cheaper is if the dealer was willing to substantially discount it, just because it's an x-drive car, which I don't think to be particularly likely.

If I lived in California or the pacific northwest (or anywhere in the south) I would not even think about x-drive... I probably would not even get it if I lived in the NE as the roads in most areas get plowed very quickly and snow tires will get you by.

Living in the snow belt it's just not worth the headache of NOT getting it... even if there are only a handful of times a year when you really need it.

I picked my x-drive 328i with adaptive-M today and I have no regrets. It drives great. The RWD with sport package might have marginally better handling but I doubt it. Placebo affect becomes a bigger issue where the driver is likely to believe that the car he wants to be better is the one that is driving better.
The 2013 F30 xdrive is too new to have any incentives. BMW will offer stronger incentives on xdrives in areas that are usually Audi Quarttro's territory.
BruceOmega commented:
August 19, 2012, 10:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
A number of people have mentioned torque redistribution based on wheel slippage. It's important to note that xDrive is a lot more sophisticated than that. The system can proactively adjust F/R torque bias based on the same sensor inputs monitored by the DSC system (yaw rate, steering angle, longitudinal/lateral acceleration and so on) before wheels even begin to slip. The adjustment are continual and all but undetectable until you reach the limits, when you can sense what's going on if you're looking for it. Quite impressive, really, and makes the car amazingly nimble.
Thank you very much. This is the type of insight I am seeking regarding XDrive vis a vis RWD for the general case, not just inclement weather.

Bruce
VLing commented:
August 19, 2012, 12:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, X-drive has the same money factor and residual as the RWD car, so the only way it would be cheaper is if the dealer was willing to substantially discount it, just because it's an x-drive car, which I don't think to be particularly likely.

If I lived in California or the pacific northwest (or anywhere in the south) I would not even think about x-drive... I probably would not even get it if I lived in the NE as the roads in most areas get plowed very quickly and snow tires will get you by.

Living in the snow belt it's just not worth the headache of NOT getting it... even if there are only a handful of times a year when you really need it.

I picked my x-drive 328i with adaptive-M today and I have no regrets. It drives great. The RWD with sport package might have marginally better handling but I doubt it. Placebo affect becomes a bigger issue where the driver is likely to believe that the car he wants to be better is the one that is driving better.
Looks like the case for xDrive having a higher residual value can be supported by the fact that on the BMWUSA.com site, they are offering a special lease deal through BMWFS for the 2013 F30 xDrive (328 and 335) and not the 2013 RWD. It might be based on my Pacific Northwest zipcode. Usually, the OEM has sub-vented lease deals on vehicles they are trying to increase sales or move out of inventory. In the case of the F30 xDrive for 2013 they are just now starting to arrive for sold customer orders and I doubt that any dealer have any stock yet. Interesting.......
sunny5280 commented:
August 19, 2012, 4:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I picked my x-drive 328i with adaptive-M today and I have no regrets. It drives great. The RWD with sport package might have marginally better handling but I doubt it. Placebo affect becomes a bigger issue where the driver is likely to believe that the car he wants to be better is the one that is driving better.
Congratulations. I've been reading your posts since you first began the process of buying it. Hard to believe it's finally here!

And I agree 100% with you about the placebo effect. I've been arguing it from day one.
voip-ninja commented:
August 19, 2012, 4:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Congratulations. I've been reading your posts since you first began the process of buying it. Hard to believe it's finally here!

And I agree 100% with you about the placebo effect. I've been arguing it from day one.
Thanks. It has definitely been an interesting experience.
Elk commented:
August 19, 2012, 9:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
The system can proactively adjust F/R torque bias based on the same sensor inputs monitored by the DSC system (yaw rate, steering angle, longitudinal/lateral acceleration and so on) before wheels even begin to slip.
Do you have a cite?

I have not seen BMW claim anything like this.
floydarogers commented:
August 19, 2012, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Do you have a cite?

I have not seen BMW claim anything like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_xDrive

Although some people don't like wikipedia, it is pretty reliable and easy.
Also, look at realoem for the center diff/xfer case: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...32&hg=27&fg=15
Note part #13, which is the motor that drives the apportionment.
FYI, that part sometimes fails; you can blame plastic gears.
Elk commented:
August 19, 2012, 10:25 pm

This does not state xDrive is proactive. Rather it is a conventional differential: " If wheel slip is detected by the ABS/DSC system, xDrive can react within a tenth of a second to redistribute up to 100% of the engine power to the front or rear axle." Very standard stuff.

Unfortunately, as we know, BMW does not even use a real LSD, but rather brake application on the spinning wheel of the open differential, often referred to as an "e-diff."

The claim I am interested in seeing substantiated is the assertion: "proactively adjust F/R torque bias based on the same sensor inputs monitored by the DSC system (yaw rate, steering angle, longitudinal/lateral acceleration and so on before wheels even begin to slip.
floydarogers commented:
August 19, 2012, 10:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
This does not state xDrive is proactive. ...
The claim I am interested in seeing substantiated is the assertion: "proactively adjust F/R torque bias based on the same sensor inputs monitored by the DSC system (yaw rate, steering angle, longitudinal/lateral acceleration and so on before wheels even begin to slip.
One more citation: http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/10/75/67
Zeichen311 commented:
August 19, 2012, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Thanks, Floyd, for posting those--saved me the trouble of finding, scanning and posting the xDrive whitepaper I have filed away somewhere....
Elk commented:
August 20, 2012, 11:31 pm

Unfortunately you are misreading what the document states.

It does not describe "proactively" adjusting torque "before wheels even begin to slip." Rather, it describes what the system does after it detects a slipping wheel or wheels. At this point, the system takes a number of factors into account to determine how best to respond. That is, the system reacts to slipping. It is not proactive.

This is, by the way, the same as stated by the Wiki article ("If wheel slip is detected by the ABS/DSC system, xDrive can react . . .").

Thanks for the effort. It was a fun read nevertheless.
Zeichen311 commented:
August 22, 2012, 9:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Unfortunately you are misreading what the document states.
Misreading...? No, more like mis-remembering, youbetcha.

You're quite right, upon re-reading I see my mistake: xDrive torque shifts kick in well in advance of DSC intervening to stabilize the car. Not having read up on it in years, I equated wheel slip with wheel spin and thereby with DSC intervention.

xDrive detects traction changes at miniscule levels meaningful only to tire engineers and microprocessors, then reacts accordingly. So no, not proactive, but reactive well in advance of DSC and at almost indetectable levels.

Thanks for checking!
dtc100 commented:
August 22, 2012, 11:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Misreading...? No, more like mis-remembering, youbetcha.

You're quite right, upon re-reading I see my mistake: xDrive torque shifts kick in well in advance of DSC intervening to stabilize the car. Not having read up on it in years, I equated wheel slip with wheel spin and thereby with DSC intervention.

xDrive detects traction changes at miniscule levels meaningful only to tire engineers and microprocessors, then reacts accordingly. So no, not proactive, but reactive well in advance of DSC and at almost indetectable levels.

Thanks for checking!
Wouldn't it make for a very boring driving experience on dry pavement?
Zeichen311 commented:
August 23, 2012, 12:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Wouldn't it make for a very boring driving experience on dry pavement?
Not hardly. With the added grip of two more driven wheels it is practically impossible to light up the tires on launch--it just hooks up and goes. In fairly aggressive cornering, DSC intervenes at a much higher threshold (v. RWD) because xDrive helps retard over- and understeer somewhat, before DSC needs to brake individual wheels or reduce power. With DSC off, xDrive won't allow tail-wagging hijinks for more than a fraction of a second (unless you're about to swap ends...), it just sends torque to the front wheels and claws its way out of the slide. (Which usually leads directly to understeer but can be held neutral when you get it juuuust right.)

So yes, if you like tire smoke and power oversteer and mimicking Jeremy Clarkson, it's pretty dull. Other than that....
Rover commented:
February 14, 2013, 1:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
That's all true. People tend to leave hills out of the analysis, though. If you live in a flat, snowy place, RWD with snows is a fine solution. Those snows won't help you crank up an icy incline nearly as well as AWD does, so I think someone who lives in a snowy, hilly area should think about AWD.

I live in a snowy, hilly area and drive a RWD E60 with snows. Mostly it's fine, but sometimes right after a snowfall I have to take the long route out of my neighborhood to avoid a certain hill.
I live in a snowy, icy, hilly area...also Denver. For 12 years...and two 3 series RWD's...I've survived very well with winter tires. Been high centered once in very deep snow in 250,000 miles (on the 2 cars)...and have driven all but 2 snowy days in that time period. And yes...we ski quite a bit with RWD.
Note...the Colorado Highway patrol cars...which you see in the mountains in the winter.. are RWD. I realize that they also drive 4wd SUV's.