elistan commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:31 am
No ATS content in this post, simply a summary of the Vanity Fair article, with my own commentary.
Eddie Alterman, Editor in Chief, Car and Driver
Current Car: 1983 Mercedes-Benz 300D
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG wagon ($98,950)
Brett Berk, Automotive Columnist, Vanity Fair
Current Cars: 2004 BMW 325i Sport, 1972 GMC Suburban 4x4
Car Pick: 2013 Audi A7 Prestige ($75,920)
Specifically mentions 3-series wagon would be #1 if it had been available.
Andrew Del-Colle, Associate Editor, Popular Mechanics
Current Car: None
Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: Mini John Cooper Works Convertible ($51,723)
$52k?!?!?!?!?!
Hannah Elliott, Staff Reporter, Forbes
Current Car: My grandmother’s Chelsea boots
Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S ($99,415)
Jake Fisher, Director of Auto Testing, Consumer Reports Cars
Current Cars: Consumer Reports’ test cars
Car Pick: 2013 Hyundai Veloster ($19,450)
Said he's going practical to afford dedicated track car
Justin Hyde, Senior Editor, Motoramic, the Yahoo! Autos blog
Current Car: 2010 Mazda 5
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid ($98,970)
Jean Jennings, Editor in Chief, Automobile
Current Car: 2007 Chevrolet Suburban
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG ($95,900)
Davey Johnson, Senior Online Editor, West Coast, Autoweek
Current Car: 1994 Chevy K1500 Blazer
Car Pick: Jaguar XF Supercharged ($72,225)
"In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no." Personally, I don't pay attention to what others are driving when making vehicle choices. YMMV.
Jamie Kitman, New York Bureau Chief, Automobile; Contributor, GQ, Yahoo! Autos, NPR’s Car Talk
Current Cars: An assortment of 30+ vintage European vehicles
Car Pick: Lotus Evora S ($83,745)
Jonny Lieberman, Senior Features Editor, Motor Trend
Current Car: 2001 Subaru WRX Wagon
Car Pick: Subaru BRZ ($27,900)
"Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K."
Alex Nunez, Senior Editor, Autos, ConsumerSearch.com
Current Car: 2006 Ford Mustang GT
Car Pick: Tesla Model S Performance ($92,400—before $7,500 federal tax credit)
Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track
Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)
Hoon. 
Tamara Warren, Freelance Automotive Journalist, Forbes, Gotryke, Gearist
Current Cars: 1983 Dodge Diplomat, 1988 Dodge Diplomat, 1965 Dodge Coronet
Car Pick: 2013 Range Rover Evoque ($60,095)
September 26, 2012, 10:33 pm
3 series FTW!
September 27, 2012, 12:17 am
I think caddy bribed him. Plus he doesn't talk about looks. The caddy is fugly.
September 27, 2012, 4:44 am
It was a very poorly done comparo. I would have liked to have Carlos Lago (also from MT) do the review instead.
September 27, 2012, 8:04 am
September 27, 2012, 9:33 am
yea most of us comment on this in the other ATS thread. Supposedly the MT let the Caddy down. But honestly this guy is a idiot because he tries his best to say that the MT in the BMW is also trash. Well some of us that have driven BMWs MTs for years can only laugh as his dumb ass comments. How do these guys get these jobs man?
September 27, 2012, 9:55 am
The reality is that the vast majority of both of these cars will be equuiped with ATs. It will be interesting to see how the two cars compare when the AT versions are tested. I am nor sure what the AT in the Cadillac will be but the ZF 8 Speed in the F30 has set the bar pretty high.
CA
September 27, 2012, 9:58 am
The review was really weird. He kind of trashed the E90 and F30's 6 speed. He hated the transmission in the ATS but said its a better, sportier chassis.
September 27, 2012, 11:15 am
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
September 27, 2012, 11:41 am
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
September 27, 2012, 12:19 pm
The significant takeaway for me is this: Year after year, article after article, it's always the 3 Series that's the benchmark. That says a lot about this car's place in the pantheon of historically great cars. The Caddy's a good car, but it lacks the pedigree of the 3.
September 27, 2012, 12:25 pm
September 27, 2012, 12:37 pm
September 27, 2012, 12:37 pm
The concept that caddy hit the 3-series benchmark in the inception of a new model, let alone the evolution, is indicative of the competition in this segment but also the inability to sustain constant true driving-dynamic-innovation in each model cycle.
Will the ATS sell well? IDK. The BMW 3-series doesn't sell well because it's the driving pinnacle - it sells well because of cheap lease deals and the desire to obtain the image associated with a BMW 3-series. Caddy has to steal into that segment, as Infiniti's G-series has accomplished well.
September 27, 2012, 12:45 pm
Will the ATS sell well? IDK. The BMW 3-series doesn't sell well because it's the driving pinnacle - it sells well because of cheap lease deals and the desire to obtain the image associated with a BMW 3-series. Caddy has to steal into that segment, as Infiniti's G-series has accomplished well.
I like the overall shape of the ATS (which is basically identical to a 3 series), but don't like the details, like the chrome.
For this reason I think the ATS-V might be a looker. It's gotta have a V8 though, a turbo V6 is just meh.
September 27, 2012, 1:43 pm
Caddy (and GM) specialize in making the finest v8's under $100k - N/A or supercharged. If they shove a 6.0 liter + in the ATS, it'll go on my list simply because large displacement RWD sport sedans with manual transmission are fairly hard to find. To wit: I drive an e39 m5 because I had to go back 10 years to find one I really liked.
September 27, 2012, 2:05 pm
The significant takeaway for me is this: Year after year, article after article, it's always the 3 Series that's the benchmark. That says a lot about this car's place in the pantheon of historically great cars. The Caddy's a good car, but it lacks the pedigree of the 3.
What happened in the past is all well and good but as they say in the music business "You are only as good as your last hit record"
CA
September 27, 2012, 2:16 pm
What happened in the past is all well and good but as they say in the music business "You are only as good as your last hit record"
CA
September 27, 2012, 2:24 pm
I don't see ATS leases matching G's any time soon.
September 27, 2012, 2:57 pm
Yes, Infiniti has replicated BMW's leasing model to drive sales, and with their lower MSRP they can get better deals.
I agree, the G series took 2 model cycles and a number of years of exposure to really grab hold like it is now. The ATS is walking into the scene unknown.
September 27, 2012, 3:08 pm
I agree, the G series took 2 model cycles and a number of years of exposure to really grab hold like it is now. The ATS is walking into the scene unknown.
September 27, 2012, 3:13 pm
September 27, 2012, 7:22 pm
I think the Caddy ATS is hideous. It reminds me of a kid's Transformers toy, but rather than a giant robot, it's likely to morph into a toaster.
September 27, 2012, 8:06 pm
ATS is ugly, but thats just my opinion. Looks so bland, no character.
September 27, 2012, 11:54 pm
"I'm so grateful for the boys over at the Bimmerfest forum for creating yet another thread about the new Caddy. I'd buy one myself, but it's too small, too harsh to ride. My wife might get one, though. She just loved our little Seville back in the day. Can I order an ATS in Champagne Pink with a vinyl landau roof?"
--Grandpa DeVille
BJ
September 28, 2012, 1:37 am
For all the pride BJ has in his 328i, he has yet had the balls to post with his car, while he is more than eager to laugh at others.
September 28, 2012, 3:10 am
I predict the Caddy will fail in head-to-head combat with F30.
September 28, 2012, 9:09 am
"I'm so grateful for the boys over at the Bimmerfest forum for creating yet another thread about the new Caddy. I'd buy one myself, but it's too small, too harsh to ride. My wife might get one, though. She just loved our little Seville back in the day. Can I order an ATS in Champagne Pink with a vinyl landau roof?"
--Grandpa DeVille
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:05 am
Another E90 owner talking a big, tough game in his used car. You aren't buying an F30, you like being seen in unfashionable past-prime status symbols, go back to the E9X subforum where you can get a little respect from the rest of the 18 year olds who just bought their 2009 E90‘s with their summer job money.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:10 am
Another E90 owner talking a big, tough game in his used car. You aren't buying an F30, you like being seen in unfashionable past-prime status symbols, go back to the E9X subforum where you can get a little respect from the rest of the 18 year olds who just bought their 2009 E90‘s with their summer job money.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:21 am
In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:25 am
I love a good cat fight.
September 28, 2012, 10:49 am
In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.
BJ
What Needs Work:
"Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional."
C/D:
"What we're left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we'd grown to love the old personality....This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i's virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if you're put off by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there"
Try harder
September 28, 2012, 10:50 am
It was a very poorly done comparo. I would have liked to have Carlos Lago (also from MT) do the review instead.
September 28, 2012, 11:03 am
I predict the Caddy will fail in head-to-head combat with F30.
In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:13 am
BJ, you've made it pretty clear over the years you don't actually know anything about cars as it relates to engineering, mechanics, and performance. You need to stick with what you know, before you make yourself sound COMPLETELY STUPID.
You can take your negative opinions of the F30 back to the E9X forum where they are more appropriate. We like coming here to discuss the F30. We don't like having to defend ourselves every day from people who used to be our friends and now relish the opportunity to sh-t all over us.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:20 am
You can take your negative opinions of the F30 back to the E9X forum where they are more appropriate. We like coming here to discuss the F30. We don't like having to defend ourselves every day from people who used to be our friends and now relish the opportunity to sh-t all over us.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:28 am
And that, my friends, is the agenda. The Cult Of E90 think that BMW is watching Bimmerfest, scouring threads for feedback. And they think that this forum filled with F30 owners is the place to sh-t all over our cars because....shh....big brother is watching and he's going to use the shrink-ray and restore the 3 Series back to E36 proportions.
dtc: Your agenda is pointless. All it is doing is aggravating otherwise-happy F30 owners. Stop. Stop now. You think you're quest is noble. It isn't. It's just annoying.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:32 am
And that, my friends, is the agenda. The Cult Of E90 think that BMW is watching Bimmerfest, scouring threads for feedback. And they think that this forum filled with F30 owners is the place to sh-t all over our cars because....shh....big brother is watching and he's going to use the shrink-ray and restore the 3 Series back to E36 proportions.
dtc: Your agenda is pointless. All it is doing is aggravating otherwise-happy F30 owners. Stop. Stop now. You think you're quest is noble. It isn't. It's just annoying.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:36 am
Email BMW yourself. Stop polluting the F30 forum with anti-F30 threads. We don't want to see it or hear it any more. You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda and an awful thread-spamming strategy that annoys legitimate F30 owners.
Stop it now.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:42 am
What Needs Work:
"Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional."
C/D:
"What we're left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we'd grown to love the old personality....This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i's virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if you're put off by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there"
Try harder
September 28, 2012, 12:25 pm
September 28, 2012, 12:27 pm
September 28, 2012, 12:29 pm
Email BMW yourself. Stop polluting the F30 forum with anti-F30 threads. We don't want to see it or hear it any more. You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda and an awful thread-spamming strategy that annoys legitimate F30 owners.
Stop it now.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 1:38 pm
But I can bet you bought a 3-series because these magazines gave it those reviews.
September 28, 2012, 1:49 pm
September 28, 2012, 2:05 pm
test drive the cars then form your own opinion.
they may drive a lot of cars but then I owned the E90 as I have stated. I lived with it for almost 3 years. So to answer your question yea i am much better qualified to say that the F30 is a much better overall car than the E90, especially when it comes to the 328i line.
September 28, 2012, 2:39 pm
This game has become so predictable.
If you don't like the latest BMW being discussed, you are one or more of the following:
A. Can't afford the latest/greatest.
B. Just unhappy because your car got replace by a "better" and newer model.
C. Paid shill for Audi, Lexus, Porsche, etc.
D. Just a plain idiot and can't appreciate all the "improvements" for lack of knowledge and/or good taste.
I can appreciate both sides of arguments, and we are here because we are supposedly BMW, and more importantly, car "enthusiasts". Exchanging our ideas, opinions and POVs is what the forum is all about.
But, I see a bunch of bullies who want nothing but like-minded people hi-fiving and padding each other's back for singing praises of the latest BMW.
September 28, 2012, 2:48 pm
BTW I will do the same for my next car. That is not to say I should ignore anyone else's opinion, whether from mags, or from BJ as a matter of fact, provided the opinion is relevant to the merit of the car.
September 28, 2012, 2:53 pm
test drive the cars then form your own opinion.
they may drive a lot of cars but then I owned the E90 as I have stated. I lived with it for almost 3 years. So to answer your question yea i am much better qualified to say that the F30 is a much better overall car than the E90, especially when it comes to the 328i line.
Besides, he was not the only one who disliked the manual in the ATS. And he is also not the only one who disliked manual in a BMW either.
September 28, 2012, 2:53 pm
Some background - I'm an S2000 owner. I like fun, engaging cars. But it was time to get a sedan with AT. So I went searching (and it needed to be something fun to drive.)
I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.
Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...
So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...
Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.
Edit - just wanted to add that this isn't intended to belittle anybody who perfers the E90 (heck, I prefer the AP1 S2000 when the majority of folk say the AP2 is superior.
September 28, 2012, 2:54 pm
Wow, this is a far cry from the civility and sense of the diesel forum. I'm all for discussions on disagreements, but this is madness. Let's try to get back on topic shall we? Anyone ever take a spin in both the f30 and ATS? Impressions? I thought long and hard about getting a ATS before I got a great deal on my F30.
September 28, 2012, 3:11 pm
I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.
Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...
So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...
Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.
September 28, 2012, 3:19 pm
If you don't like the latest BMW being discussed, you are one or more of the following:
A. Can't afford the latest/greatest.
B. Just unhappy because your car got replace by a "better" and newer model.
C. Paid shill for Audi, Lexus, Porsche, etc.
D. Just a plain idiot and can't appreciate all the "improvements" for lack of knowledge and/or good taste.
I can appreciate both sides of arguments, and we are here because we are supposedly BMW, and more importantly, car "enthusiasts". Exchanging our ideas, opinions and POVs is what the forum is all about.
But, I see a bunch of bullies who want nothing but like-minded people hi-fiving and padding each other's back for singing praises of the latest BMW.
When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.
Ok, the last part was joking.
September 28, 2012, 3:32 pm
September 28, 2012, 3:49 pm
September 28, 2012, 3:49 pm
When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.
Ok, the last part was joking.
September 28, 2012, 3:55 pm
I admit it, I am not blown away by the 6mt in my F30. It's a bit rubbery, a bit vague, not very hard to trip it up on a FAST 2-3 shift. I would not go as far to as calling it BAD. I prefer the shifting in my E36/7, but it's very deliberate, very mechanical, might not be everyone's cup of tea.
Fact is, If my F30 order were to have gotten any more F-ed up I would have waited and driven an ATS 2.0T 6mt. Fact is, it is the most worthy 3 series competitor I have seen.
September 28, 2012, 3:59 pm
The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
September 28, 2012, 4:05 pm
The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
September 28, 2012, 4:08 pm
The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
September 28, 2012, 4:10 pm
September 28, 2012, 4:32 pm
In any case, the comparison here is F30 vs. ATS.
September 28, 2012, 4:34 pm
Of course a 6 should sound better than a 4, an 8 should sound better than a 6. I am curious to see how the ATS 3.6 sounds. Those who drove it all liked the 3.6's exhaust sound, there were little comment about the engine sound.
September 28, 2012, 4:38 pm
OK, I am just kidding
September 28, 2012, 4:47 pm
I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.
But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.
September 28, 2012, 4:55 pm
I personally do not care for the styling of the caddy inside or out. But styling is very subjective and no doubt many others prefer the looks of the caddy over the F30.
The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.
At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.
GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
September 28, 2012, 4:56 pm
I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.
I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.
But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.
You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
September 28, 2012, 5:17 pm
Besides, he was not the only one who disliked the manual in the ATS. And he is also not the only one who disliked manual in a BMW either.
Preference wise
335i
328i
S4
G37S
Golf R
A4
I would not consider any Mercedes because they don't offer a MT this model year. If price was an issue hands down the winner would have been the G37S Sedan, is that good so If they improve the ride and come up with something similar to the F30 DHP this is the car that would challenge the F30 IMO.
Now does that make me an authority to criticize the caddy? no, and I never cut the car down. All I said when this journalist called the BMW MT average or something like it, that raised a HUGE red flag for me. Its a great box, you just need to know how to drive it correctly and obviously this guy didn't. I have had plenty of BMW manuals to know what they are, feel like and how they interact with the car and driver.
September 28, 2012, 5:47 pm
The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.
At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.
GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
I don't know what tangent you speak of. I am one of the few speaking level headed-ly round these parts.
September 28, 2012, 7:20 pm
C&D's comparison is in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzrhL...e_gdata_player
The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.
The field is narrowing fast
September 28, 2012, 8:19 pm
The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.
The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 8:31 pm
Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.
BJ
You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
September 28, 2012, 8:57 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzrhL...e_gdata_player
The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.
The field is narrowing fast
September 28, 2012, 9:16 pm
You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
September 28, 2012, 9:19 pm
September 28, 2012, 9:25 pm
The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas millage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
September 28, 2012, 9:39 pm
The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas millage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
Also, the test cars are typically supplied by the manufacturers. If anything, it's BMW's fault for not furnishing a properly equipped car for reviews.
As for the tires, I agree with you (and I would go one step further and ask BMW to give an option for non-RFT), but they keep insisting on these mediocre tires unless you opt for the expensive M-Sport line.
September 28, 2012, 9:53 pm
The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas mileage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
For the same reason, I didn't point out that most of the wonderful "new" technology they were touting as the latest and greatest for Cadillac and the ATS is already on my 2006 E90 330i and has been on the higher end Bimmers since before that. He did ask if anyone knew what brake drying technology was. When I said yes he seemed quite surprised. He asked how I knew. I said, "you don't want to know." He pressed. I said, "because I've had it on my BMW 3 Series for the past six years."
BMWNA bears a lot of the responsibility for the lack of apples to apples testing/comparing. These car rags compare the cars the manufacturers supply to them. BMW needs to supply cars with ZDH and summer tires.
September 28, 2012, 9:55 pm
lol
September 28, 2012, 10:00 pm
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:04 pm
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:16 pm
So if adding the stiffest, most adaptive suspension still doesn't cut it by your precious standards, enjoy your E90, go buy a vintage E36 as a weekend car, and move on. BMW has changed the 3 Series. You don't like it. We get it. Move on. No point in whining about it.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:33 pm
Grandpa BJ is grumpy again.
September 28, 2012, 10:41 pm
If GM screws up on the sound of the 3.6L also, then game over as far as I am concerned.
But wait, this seems exactly what this reviewer thought
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
September 28, 2012, 10:42 pm
September 28, 2012, 10:50 pm
I'm not all conflicted inside, stuck in a 7 year old bodystyle that hasn't aged gracefully, wishing ill-will on my BMW brothers in their new cars, praying that Cadillac crushes the 3 Series. I'm not the one upset, looking at my old car each day, delusionally believing that BMW will listen to me, turn back the hands of time, make the E46 of my dreams again.
None of you are race car drivers. The 3 Series is not a race car. The problem is that you fail to realize those simple truths.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:53 pm
September 28, 2012, 10:58 pm
This isn't satire. I'm genuinely offended by the demeanor of the E90 owners who have no business in the F30 forum other than to bash our cars. Is that not apparent to you, what you're doing and how it can be interpreted?
If I'm reading your posts correctly, you want the F30 to look like the E90 and handle like the E46. That's not happening, so is your point to go round in circles on this for the next 7 years until the next 3 Series is launched? If so, isn't the E90 forum the most appropriate place to do that?
BJ
September 28, 2012, 10:58 pm
I have talked to people from BMW North America a number of times and have attended events where they spoke to owners and I have been given cars for extended test drives.
BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.
BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.
The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.
Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,
CA
September 28, 2012, 11:04 pm
BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.
BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.
The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.
Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,
CA
Currently the perception of BMW has much greater prestige than cadillac. Now, that can change but it will take a long time and certainly more than just one car model.
September 28, 2012, 11:07 pm
Currently the perception of BMW has much greater prestige than cadillac. Now, that can change but it will take a long time and certainly more than just one car model.
CA
September 28, 2012, 11:08 pm
BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.
BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.
The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.
Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,
CA
And my contention is that the F30 is exactly what you describe. Sporty, luxurious, fast, comfortable, and beautiful. The blend of everything one would want. We never could say that about any other 3 Series before. That's why the F30 is so special.
M-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Modern, Base. Sport+, Sport, Comfort, Eco. Adaptive, Sport, Standard.
Mix and match, it's the most customizable 3 ever, something for everyone. Push it 10% any which-way. Make it more luxurious, check. Make it more sporty, check. Push a button to drive to the mall. Push a button to race the curves. You will need to compromise on interior colors, but you can build the exact F30 you want to suit however you want to drive. That's ultimately it's biggest advantage.
BJ
September 28, 2012, 11:15 pm
BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.
BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.
The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.
Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,
CA
Why I say BJ is the perfect candidate to be shipped to North Korea, there, 98% will agree with him, as for the other 2%, he would just ask his great leader to make them stop, stop, stop breathing. It will work out perfectly for him.
The above post of his is a perfect example of how he tells you what you meant in your post. Don't you ever point out it was not what you or the BMW reps meant. You don't want to be the 2%.
September 28, 2012, 11:18 pm
CA
September 28, 2012, 11:25 pm
Some of our BMW drivers think the world evolves around them, not realizing there are plenty of people who have more money, and think Bimmer drivers are snobs.
September 28, 2012, 11:32 pm
This isn't satire. I'm genuinely offended by the demeanor of the E90 owners who have no business in the F30 forum other than to bash our cars. Is that not apparent to you, what you're doing and how it can be interpreted?
If I'm reading your posts correctly, you want the F30 to look like the E90 and handle like the E46. That's not happening, so is your point to go round in circles on this for the next 7 years until the next 3 Series is launched? If so, isn't the E90 forum the most appropriate place to do that?
BJ
The only criticism I've posted regarding the F30 was BMW's decision to use a four cylinder motor to meet their fuel economy goals rather than a smaller inline six that is turbo charged, which I believe they could have done with a little extra effort. I have also commented that the direct injection on the turbo four does indeed make it sound like a diesel, which is an indisputable fact. Of course, these are mechanically based posts which I realize probably caused your eyes to glaze over.
September 28, 2012, 11:38 pm
And my contention is that the F30 is exactly what you describe. Sporty, luxurious, fast, comfortable, and beautiful. The blend of everything one would want. We never could say that about any other 3 Series before. That's why the F30 is so special.
M-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Modern, Base. Sport+, Sport, Comfort, Eco. Adaptive, Sport, Standard.
Mix and match, it's the most customizable 3 ever, something for everyone. Push it 10% any which-way. Make it more luxurious, check. Make it more sporty, check. Push a button to drive to the mall. Push a button to race the curves. You will need to compromise on interior colors, but you can build the exact F30 you want to suit however you want to drive. That's ultimately it's biggest advantage.
BJ
As for styling, I have never been enthalled with the looks of BMWs (including the two that I own). I don't think they are bad looking, I just find them to be rather bland and run of the mill (innocuous?).
I will probably replace the fun car (the 335i) in a year or so. At this point (now that I finally have made it into the car i thought I bought in 2007) I am going to enjoy driving it for a while. I took it to Lime Rock this weekend and hopefully we will get some top down weather.
Whether I replace it with another BMW is not determined at this point. I intend to look at the 4 Series convertible and the M4 convertible but will also be looking at the new Jaguar F-Type, Porsche, Maserati and whatever else is available at the time.
CA
September 28, 2012, 11:41 pm
Some of our BMW drivers think the world evolves around them, not realizing there are plenty of people who have more money, and think Bimmer drivers are snobs.
September 28, 2012, 11:51 pm
September 28, 2012, 11:56 pm
September 28, 2012, 11:56 pm
My previous car was a CTS and it was one of the worst car I've ever owned. It had an unbelievable amount of problems. I was also told by a Cadillac employee the new touch screen system is still full of bugs they're trying to work out. GM always does what they have to do to look good on paper but in the real world they always under achieve. My new F30 N55 is light years ahead of my CTS
September 29, 2012, 12:01 am
September 29, 2012, 12:03 am
However if I had a car with a lot of issues, as you did, that would definetely sour me on the brand.
CA
September 29, 2012, 12:05 am
CA
September 29, 2012, 12:07 am
CA
Slightly off topic, but i walked into an audi dealer today to check out the new S4, walked around for 5 min, wasn't approached by anyone and walked right out. They did have an R8 GT, damn that car is nice.
September 29, 2012, 12:15 am
Blasphemy.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 12:25 am
However if I had a car with a lot of issues, as you did, that would definetely sour me on the brand.
CA
September 29, 2012, 12:28 am
September 29, 2012, 12:33 am
Then again i probably would be trolling the F30 forums too with nonsense if i recently purchased a E90 328i right before it was updated.
September 29, 2012, 12:34 am
One theory about BMW's poor initial satisfaction rating was the free maintenance service. People might complain more when they bring cars in for free services, and do not get what they think they should get. If true, there is no fear, Cadillac has free service for ATS
September 29, 2012, 12:35 am
September 29, 2012, 12:38 am
CA
Edit:
Found the link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html
The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
September 29, 2012, 12:40 am
CA
September 29, 2012, 12:49 am
CA
Edit:
Found the link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html
The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
Below is the most recent J D Power survey charts:
http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-csi-study.htm
Looks to me ATS will have the potential to pull Cadillac back with the CUE experience
September 29, 2012, 1:07 am
CA
Edit:
Found the link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html
The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
September 29, 2012, 1:30 am
September 29, 2012, 7:13 am
September 29, 2012, 9:25 am
On the other hand, the new 3 is clearly more refined and consistent in its drivetrain delivery. I think that alone will appeal to a larger audience in this segment, with the caveat that someone who ranks drivetrain refinement at the top of the list, have many brands to choose from. And if driving dynamics or fun factor is your priority, the field narrows significantly.
The initial reviews seem to suggest that BMW is trying to go after that larger audience, Caddy is trying to capture the more enthusiast oriented group. Whether they succeed or not is yet to come.
September 29, 2012, 10:59 am
Caddy is trying to capture the more enthusiast oriented group. Whether they succeed or not is yet to come.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 11:06 am
I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.
I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.
But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.
You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
6 speed 2009 328i
Curb weight: 3352
0-60 5.9 secs
0-100 16.1 secs
0-120 24.9 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
6 speed 2008 128i
Curb weight 3197
0-60 5.8 secs
0-100 15.7 secs
0-130 mph 31.4 secs
1/4 mile 14.5 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test
6 speed F30 328i
Curb weight 3434
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.3 secs
0-130 26.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review
5 speed E36 M3 Coupe
Curb weight 3230
0-60 6.0 secs
0-100 16.0 secs
0-130 33.2 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 95 mph
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...vs.-9-3-Viggen)
The 128 and 328 are nearly identical with the E36 M3. Look how much faster the F30 is, specifically the 1/4 mile trap speed which is a good indication of power.
September 29, 2012, 11:17 am
6 speed 2009 328i
Curb weight: 3352
0-60 5.9 secs
0-100 16.1 secs
0-120 24.9 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
6 speed 2008 128i
Curb weight 3197
0-60 5.8 secs
0-100 15.7 secs
0-130 mph 31.4 secs
1/4 mile 14.5 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test
6 speed F30 328i
Curb weight 3434
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.3 secs
0-130 26.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review
5 speed E36 M3 Coupe
Curb weight 3230
0-60 6.0 secs
0-100 16.0 secs
0-130 33.2 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 95 mph
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...vs.-9-3-Viggen)
The 128 and 328 are nearly identical with the E36 M3. Look how much faster the F30 is, specifically the 1/4 mile trap speed which is a good indication of power.
September 29, 2012, 12:19 pm
For better sound and performance, I will consider the N20 when the BMW performance exhaust is available installed at the port of entry, and will order DHP. I have pretty much ruled out the ATS 2.0T since I don't see options available to improve the sound. Not going aftermarket route.
That leaves me with only the ATS 3.6L as a contender for "sound proof". Will want LSD option on the ATS too. And of course at that point the 335i will be in the contention, so is the S4.
For now personally there are really no other viable alternatives I can think of. I may still test drive a G37S simply because of its fantastic lease deals, but unless it really impresses me in the driving dynamics and fun department, it will not be a serious option.
September 29, 2012, 12:48 pm
1994 BMW M3 Coupe 5 speed manual
Curb weight 3180
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.9 secs
0-120 23.5 secs
0-130 29.8 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 98 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review
2008 128i
Curb weight 3228
0-60 5.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.4 @ 96.1 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...st_test/?ti=v2
Few years back I used to attend domestic v import events at the local track. I witnessed plenty of E36 M3's running high 14 second to mid 15 seconds 1/4 mile times. Two of my friends owned E36 M3s both with modifications and both running mid 14 second times. Again I am not saying it is not capable of running 13 secs at 1/4 mile with some mods and I am not trying to take anything away from the E36 M3 because it is one of the best sedans ever made. However, I find it a little funny how most people say the N52 is slow when it pretty much matches the E36 M3's acceleration times. On the side note, I am thinking about picking up a E36 M3 as a track toy and keeping the E90 as my daily.
September 29, 2012, 12:56 pm
That leaves me with only the ATS 3.6L as a contender for "sound proof". Will want LSD option on the ATS too. And of course at that point the 335i will be in the contention, so is the S4.
For now personally there are really no other viable alternatives I can think of. I may still test drive a G37S simply because of its fantastic lease deals, but unless it really impresses me in the driving dynamics and fun department, it will not be a serious option.
September 29, 2012, 1:03 pm
1994 BMW M3 Coupe 5 speed manual
Curb weight 3180
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.9 secs
0-120 23.5 secs
0-130 29.8 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 98 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review
2008 128i
Curb weight 3228
0-60 5.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.4 @ 96.1 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...st_test/?ti=v2
Few years back I used to attend domestic v import events at the local track. I witnessed plenty of E36 M3's running high 14 second to mid 15 seconds 1/4 mile times. Two of my friends owned E36 M3s both with modifications and both running mid 14 second times. Again I am not saying it is not capable of running 13 secs at 1/4 mile with some mods and I am not trying to take anything away from the E36 M3 because it is one of the best sedans ever made. However, I find it a little funny how most people say the N52 is slow when it pretty much matches the E36 M3's acceleration times. On the side note, I am thinking about picking up a E36 M3 as a track toy and keeping the E90 as my daily.
I guess I am just more engrossed as this is the generation of car I live with.
I have spent years doing NA bolt ons on the S52 and kept a close eye on all the times ran by S52 cars as well as dyno'ing.
In my section of the forums we have had a guy with a stock M Coupe with only 3.73 gears running 13.2 at 102.x mph. That may be partly due to the wider tires the M Coupe/Roadster allows. Even before the gears, he was still a 13.8 at 100. At the same time, more average drivers struggled to crack 13's. It was widely known, this person can DRIVE.
I also find it the norm for basic bolt on E36 M3's to be in the 13's. Not to be rude, but your experiences indicate from my years of dealing with these cars as either higher altitude, poorly driven, or not well chosen modifications-state of tune etc.
September 29, 2012, 1:10 pm
I have spent years doing NA bolt ons on the S52 and kept a close eye on all the times ran by S52 cars as well as dyno'ing.
In my section of the forums we have had a guy with a stock M Coupe with only 3.73 gears running 13.2 at 102.x mph. That may be partly due to the wider tires the M Coupe/Roadster allows. Even before the gears, he was still a 13.8 at 100. At the same time, more average drivers struggled to crack 13's. It was widely known, this person can DRIVE.
I also find it the norm for basic bolt on E36 M3's to be in the 13's. Not to be rude, but your experiences indicate from my years of dealing with these cars as either higher altitude, poorly driven, or not well chosen modifications-state of tune etc.
Unladen Weight: Coupe 3175 Sedan 3175/3241 auto
0-60 mph: Coupe 5.7 Sedan 5.7 /6.4 auto
1/4 mile: Coupe 14.3 Sedan 14.3/14.9 auto
September 29, 2012, 1:47 pm
Then again i probably would be trolling the F30 forums too with nonsense if i recently purchased a E90 328i right before it was updated.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 1:58 pm
As for styling, I have never been enthalled with the looks of BMWs (including the two that I own). I don't think they are bad looking, I just find them to be rather bland and run of the mill (innocuous?).
CA
The target customer for BMW is a status-seeking luxury car buyer in his 40's, not some performance-enthusiast sportsman in his 30's. The key to BMW's success has been making yuppie luxury cars with the perception of sports enthusiasm. They're trying to attract me, someone whose really in it for the badge but wants to be viewed like he's driving a sportscar-in-sheep's-clothing, makes me look cool, not like some stodgy dad in a Lexus.
Point being that enthusiasts are collateral damage, just a happy accident to BMW's overall marketing strategy. They sell so few Sport models and M-Sport models that it's not significant enough to move the needle. But without their perception of "sporty performance" they lose me as I don't want to be seen in a car like that. If I were only in it for the badge, I'd go Mercedes E Class. Because of their sports enthusiast marking, I am just as well perceived (if not better) in a BMW 3.
So if the F30 is getting bigger and longer and wider with a proudly marketed "luxury" line and a default "comfort" mode it sucks for the performance enthusiasts but it's not some "mistake" on BMW's part. They know exactly what they're doing. Cadillac, along with every other brand that's tried and failed, can't succeed because they're not perceived to be a "sporty" brand. We have you enthusiasts to thank for that protection. The ATS's ad campaign, TV commercials, it's all about some 30-something's racing around twisty highways in Europe. It's all an attempt to "BMW-ize" their brand. Going to take decades and at least one fabulous car to do that.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 2:26 pm
Unladen Weight: Coupe 3175 Sedan 3175/3241 auto
0-60 mph: Coupe 5.7 Sedan 5.7 /6.4 auto
1/4 mile: Coupe 14.3 Sedan 14.3/14.9 auto
But mid 14 second ones are simply not being driven to potential. Same goes for bolt on cars. Not in the 13's.
September 29, 2012, 2:29 pm
I was shopping my car around the olimpics when an ad for the ATS came on . I usually fast forward past them but I watched it . My wife who drives a Lexus and does not care much about cars looked up and said You are not thinking about buying a Caddy are you. That is still the perception they will have to over come. The transmission problem will also apply to the automatic as it will be a 6 speed Vs the eight for the f30. Which will also effect gas mileage. The Caddy was also designed to be somewhat bland to sell better in China, they seem to like the understated.
Caddy is thinking long term and it is good for BMW to have some competion as my only complaint with my car was they charge too must for certain options . Also I don't tink the residual are not going to be to good on the Caddy for a while at best.
September 29, 2012, 2:36 pm
The target customer for BMW is a status-seeking luxury car buyer in his 40's, not some performance-enthusiast sportsman in his 30's. The key to BMW's success has been making yuppie luxury cars with the perception of sports enthusiasm. They're trying to attract me, someone whose really in it for the badge but wants to be viewed like he's driving a sportscar-in-sheep's-clothing, makes me look cool, not like some stodgy dad in a Lexus.
Point being that enthusiasts are collateral damage, just a happy accident to BMW's overall marketing strategy. They sell so few Sport models and M-Sport models that it's not significant enough to move the needle. But without their perception of "sporty performance" they lose me as I don't want to be seen in a car like that. If I were only in it for the badge, I'd go Mercedes E Class. Because of their sports enthusiast marking, I am just as well perceived (if not better) in a BMW 3.
So if the F30 is getting bigger and longer and wider with a proudly marketed "luxury" line and a default "comfort" mode it sucks for the performance enthusiasts but it's not some "mistake" on BMW's part. They know exactly what they're doing. Cadillac, along with every other brand that's tried and failed, can't succeed because they're not perceived to be a "sporty" brand. We have you enthusiasts to thank for that protection. The ATS's ad campaign, TV commercials, it's all about some 30-something's racing around twisty highways in Europe. It's all an attempt to "BMW-ize" their brand. Going to take decades and at least one fabulous car to do that.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 3:10 pm
September 29, 2012, 3:13 pm
Since you bought your 2006 Beige 330, I'm in my third 3 Series having owned a 2007 E93, a 2009 E90, and a 2013 F30.
I'm an F30 owner. This is the F30 forum. You can take your old-school BMW beliefs that are contradictory to BMW's current marketing strategy back to the E90 forum in which you belong. If you intend to stay here, I suggest you listen to what's changed in the 7 years since you last purchased a BMW product as you clearly have a lot to learn.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 3:18 pm
While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 3:25 pm
While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.
BJ
The other forum doesn't have anywhere near the troll issue this one does.
September 29, 2012, 3:29 pm
But mid 14 second ones are simply not being driven to potential. Same goes for bolt on cars. Not in the 13's.
September 29, 2012, 3:59 pm
I like the way it sounds.
But I also never leave anything stock.
I have liked how the S52 responds to bolt ons(I showed a 15whp gain from a $60 M50 manifold swap) and the N20 will be even better.
I think the N52 is decent stock when compared to the S52 as you mentioned are similar on paper. But I also find it more complicated and harder to get HP out of unless going the FI route. The S52, largely due to age and simplicity means more bolt ons and more simple ways of extracting power(such as the M50 manifold I gave).
I have just become spoiled in regards to bang for the buck. I did my FI project on the cheap, even the tune was second hand. I showed a 150whp gain on the dyno(on the second hand tune, more tweaking needed) with $2-2300 in second hand parts. Much more left on the table, only the head gasket is holding me back. I love that the S52 offers that and I LOVE the sound.
If I had similar years invested in the N52, which might be the S52 all over again in 5-10 years, I would wax on about it too.
September 29, 2012, 4:08 pm
While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.
BJ
One more week my friend and I will get to enjoy what you have been enjoying for a few weeks now. A brand new F30.
September 29, 2012, 4:16 pm
One more week my friend and I will get to enjoy what you have been enjoying for a few weeks now. A brand new F30.
Can you post up your build sheet? Forgot the options you put on the car.
BJ
September 29, 2012, 4:21 pm
Can you post up your build sheet? Forgot the options you put on the car.
BJ
This is what I got.
Alpine White
Sportline
6-MT
Dynamic handling package
NAV
Front Heated seats
HK
September 29, 2012, 4:25 pm
Don't fall for it.
Unfortunately you have to weed through the noise if you want to have some good comparisons here, this is just the nature of this forum.
September 29, 2012, 4:29 pm
Hey Jon, if your reading this you should add a "trolls only" section to the F30 forum.
September 29, 2012, 4:35 pm
September 29, 2012, 4:45 pm
September 29, 2012, 5:23 pm
I am also personally offended at having my positions misrepresented by BJ. Clearly he either hasn't actually read the things I've posted over the past seven years or he hasn't comprehended them or he is willfully choosing to misrepresent them. I have no problem standing on the helpful contribution I have made to Bimmerfest over the past seven years. It is not uncommon for me to get a PM asking for my input.
I'm all about having fun on Bimmerfest and I have a lot of it. But willfully posting misinformation to advance one's own agenda or stifle opposing opinions is not my idea of fun.
September 29, 2012, 5:25 pm
Slightly off topic, but i walked into an audi dealer today to check out the new S4, walked around for 5 min, wasn't approached by anyone and walked right out. They did have an R8 GT, damn that car is nice.
September 29, 2012, 5:33 pm
Probably saw my F30 and figured i just got a car, but what they didnt know is its about to be returned and the dealer is giving me a bunch of cash. It's all good, i will just never recommend that dealer to anyone.
And work on your spelling
September 29, 2012, 5:40 pm
Probably saw my F30 and figured i just got a car, but what they didnt know is its about to be returned and the dealer is giving me a bunch of cash. It's all good, i will just never recommend that dealer to anyone.
And work on your spelling
If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.
I normally call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are usually ready for me when I arrive.
September 29, 2012, 5:47 pm
If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.
I usually call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are typically ready for me when I arrive.
On another side not, i was talking with race car driver Bill Adam the other day. Real nice guy and he happens to drive for Champion Racing(i was at Champion Audi, the one in coral springs, i have gotten porsches from them before at copans). He drives an R8 for them, pretty storied racing history and he is in the canadian racing HOF.
September 29, 2012, 6:05 pm
On another side not, i was talking with race car driver Bill Adam the other day. Real nice guy and he happens to drive for Champion Racing(i was at Champion Audi, the one in coral springs, i have gotten porsches from them before at copans). He drives an R8 for them, pretty storied racing history and he is in the canadian racing HOF.
I found both dealerships to be very friendly and helpful.
If you owned Porsches before, why are you driving a 328i?
September 29, 2012, 6:07 pm
If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.
I normally call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are usually ready for me when I arrive.
September 29, 2012, 6:15 pm
I found both dealerships to be very friendly and helpful.
If you owned Porsches before, why are you driving a 328i?
I am looking to pick up a boxster probably 2014 year, love the new body style but not willing to be a early model owner of a porsche again. Had a few issues with a 996.
Picking up my 335msport in a few weeks, very excited.
September 29, 2012, 6:46 pm
I am also personally offended at having my positions misrepresented by BJ. Clearly he either hasn't actually read the things I've posted over the past seven years or he hasn't comprehended them or he is willfully choosing to misrepresent them. I have no problem standing on the helpful contribution I have made to Bimmerfest over the past seven years. It is not uncommon for me to get a PM asking for my input.
I'm all about having fun on Bimmerfest and I have a lot of it. But willfully posting misinformation to advance one's own agenda or stifle opposing opinions is not my idea of fun.
The ultimate purpose of these boards is to share information about your car..you know the one that you own or have extensively tested and put hard earned cash down, or the one that you tested and decided your money is better spend somewhere else. Not to belittle or praise rides you don't even own or test but you heard some journalist say this and that. To that notion I will let BJ defend his posts but this guy just acquired a 45K so I can understand his enthusiasm.
September 29, 2012, 8:09 pm
Anyway, I happened to drive by one of our local Caddy dealers. The only 3.6L ATS with performance trim they had was an all wheel drive. So I drove it.
First let me agree with you the steering was very light, precise but light. Although it tightened up as the car picked up speed. Initially I was very unhappy about it, but then I started revving the V6. The thing sounded so labored and strained above 4k I quickly forgot about the light steering.
Although I knew no 4 cylinders or V6s could rival I6's smooth revving nature, the 3.6 simply gave me the impression that it wanted me to shift gears at 3k and be done with. The little tachometer tugged at the left corner seemed to underscore that notion.
But then magic happened. As I went on a twisty road with no traffic, I told the sales guy hold on I was going to push this thing hard in sport and manual mode. All was forgotten. The entire chassis was transformed into a unified piece of attack machine, it shot through the bends and corners like a bullet train on the rail.
Never have I had experienced the same in any of the cars in this segment. The F30 335i sport I drove during the BMW Olympic Team Drive event took the same route, I liked it over the A4 and C class, but this ATS was just refreshingly different.
Once we got back to the local traffic, I was again reminded of the light steering and labored rev.
So the 3.6 has no lack of power to attack the corner or straight, just as long as you can overcome the less than refined V6 above the mid range, you will be rewarded of a new experience. In the street, you put it in standard touring mode, it never revs high so you don't have to think above the strained high rev.
But because the exhaust sounded so sweet I kept stepping on it to hear it, if I went a little overboard, would again be reminded of the unrefined high revving.
As for the light steering, it was also forgotten as soon as you put it in the attack mode. I am afraid the only way to retain the kind of steering connection to the road surface, through the rack and tires, is to keep your 3 with the hydraulic system. No EPS system will save us on this one, at least not likely in this segment.
The car interior was otherwise very well stitched together. If you are not in the habit to push it, it will be a very plush and quiet ride, just as long as you do not put it in sport mode, because the suspension will be hard. This car did not have MRC, only the sport suspension.
I didn't really care about trying or looking at anything else about the car. My initial impression is, if I wanted to take my car out on a twisty just to have some fun, I definitely want to be in this ATS 3.6, but the rest of the way, I will have to choose between hearing the nice exhaust, and reminded of its less refined engine.
It will be a tough decision.
September 29, 2012, 8:56 pm
September 29, 2012, 9:20 pm
September 29, 2012, 10:06 pm
Anyway, I happened to drive by one of our local Caddy dealers. The only 3.6L ATS with performance trim they had was an all wheel drive. So I drove it.
First let me agree with you the steering was very light, precise but light. Although it tightened up as the car picked up speed. Initially I was very unhappy about it, but then I started revving the V6. The thing sounded so labored and strained above 4k I quickly forgot about the light steering.
Although I knew no 4 cylinders or V6s could rival I6's smooth revving nature, the 3.6 simply gave me the impression that it wanted me to shift gears at 3k and be done with. The little tachometer tugged at the left corner seemed to underscore that notion.
But then magic happened. As I went on a twisty road with no traffic, I told the sales guy hold on I was going to push this thing hard in sport and manual mode. All was forgotten. The entire chassis was transformed into a unified piece of attack machine, it shot through the bends and corners like a bullet train on the rail.
Never have I had experienced the same in any of the cars in this segment. The F30 335i sport I drove during the BMW Olympic Team Drive event took the same route, I liked it over the A4 and C class, but this ATS was just refreshingly different.
Once we got back to the local traffic, I was again reminded of the light steering and labored rev.
So the 3.6 has no lack of power to attack the corner or straight, just as long as you can overcome the less than refined V6 above the mid range, you will be rewarded of a new experience. In the street, you put it in standard touring mode, it never revs high so you don't have to think above the strained high rev.
But because the exhaust sounded so sweet I kept stepping on it to hear it, if I went a little overboard, would again be reminded of the unrefined high revving.
As for the light steering, it was also forgotten as soon as you put it in the attack mode. I am afraid the only way to retain the kind of steering connection to the road surface, through the rack and tires, is to keep your 3 with the hydraulic system. No EPS system will save us on this one, at least not likely in this segment.
The car interior was otherwise very well stitched together. If you are not in the habit to push it, it will be a very plush and quiet ride, just as long as you do not put it in sport mode, because the suspension will be hard. This car did not have MRC, only the sport suspension.
I didn't really care about trying or looking at anything else about the car. My initial impression is, if I wanted to take my car out on a twisty just to have some fun, I definitely want to be in this ATS 3.6, but the rest of the way, I will have to choose between hearing the nice exhaust, and reminded of its less refined engine.
It will be a tough decision.
September 29, 2012, 10:09 pm
This is what I got.
Alpine White
Sportline
6-MT
Dynamic handling package
NAV
Front Heated seats
HK
BJ
September 29, 2012, 10:24 pm
Of course it is tough comparing to the BMW I6 in smooth revving department. But if someone has been driving a Camaro or Mustang, he will probably have a different view of the ATS V6 than mine.
I went prepared to rev that V6, after all I liked the fact it was an N/A engine and the power was at the higher RPM band. As I said, in racing mode, you don't think about the coarse engine sound at redline, to the contrary the sound and vibration stimulate you as you push the car to the limit.
But this is a luxury sport sedan, most people will only rev it in the street from stoplight to stoplight.
September 29, 2012, 10:30 pm
The suspension in the ATS does sound pretty nice, but since i like in south florida it would be useless to me. Wish we had some curvy roads, when i go to CT i love driving around there in greenwich and pound ridge.
September 29, 2012, 10:30 pm
I can't think of many V6's I'm a fan of: NSX had a sweet V6, GTI had a nice V6 but that's a VR6, which I think is closer to an inline six.
Some like the Nissan V6s but not me, I think they sound like arse.
So glad BMW hasn't switched to V6s.
September 30, 2012, 1:13 am
Some like the Nissan V6s but not me, I think they sound like arse.
So glad BMW hasn't switched to V6s.
September 30, 2012, 7:29 am
BJ
September 30, 2012, 10:11 am
BTW, it was confirmed the MT reviewer misspoke. He meant to say the ATS 2.0T needed to get into the 3rd gear at the end of the 0-60 run, resulting in slower time.
Scott also said he drove the same ATS at the press event last time, did not recall the ATS shifter was that bad. The car had since added maybe 3k miles on it.
So the ATS 2.0T in the MT test is a pre-production model. I am looking forward to a review taken cars from dealer stocks. Judging by my own experience though, I think both reviews hit the nail on the head.
BMW is more refined and mature, in the customary German fashion, they hit all the engineering detail right and to precision, from weight, to power delivery, to speed, to fuel economy and more.
But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis and exhaust (for the 3.6), and also because, well it is all new. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.
I am not saying the new F30 lacks emotional appeal, but the new ATS has more of it. It will be a tough call.
September 30, 2012, 10:27 am
But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.
Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.
Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.
The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.
GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 10:35 am
Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.
Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.
The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.
GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.
BJ
The CTS never quite fit. It was more like a 5 in size while being a bit too large and heavy to be a real 3 competitor. Now the ATS gets to target the 3 specifically, it allows the CTS to grow a bit more and allow a higher price spread to be more of a target for the 5. The CTS will have more driver focus and involvement than the 5 which has lost it's edge a bit with each generation after the E39. Now the F10 is a shortened 7 more than a slightly larger 3. So Cadillac has the challenge of making us forget the CTS was marketed as a competitor for the 3 and that it's price and size can soon compete with the 5.
September 30, 2012, 11:20 am
Scott also said he drove the same ATS at the press event last time, did not recall the ATS shifter was that bad. The car had since added maybe 3k miles on it.
So the ATS 2.0T in the MT test is a pre-production model. I am looking forward to a review taken cars from dealer stocks. Judging by my own experience though, I think both reviews hit the nail on the head.
BMW is more refined and mature, in the customary German fashion, they hit all the engineering detail right and to precision, from weight, to power delivery, to speed, to fuel economy and more.
But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis and exhaust (for the 3.6), and also because, well it is all new. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.
I am not saying the new F30 lacks emotional appeal, but the new ATS has more of it. It will be a tough call.
September 30, 2012, 11:20 am
Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.
Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.
The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.
GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.
BJ
I do agree with you on their marketing ploy. They succeeded in getting the attention at the expense of the 3 series. If they continue to put their money where their mouth is, fine tune their engines, transmissions and CUE, they can win on the Buy American sentiment alone.
BTW, I know you do not accept this, and I agree supply shortage has some to do with the latest decline in the F30 sales, but the strength of the G and C sales has already moved the needle. Ultimately all manufactures must look at the bottom line, how many units do you push out to this crowded market each month, regardless how much the car mags like yours over the other. A 5% enthusiasts leaving your base could make or break the bean counters' pay.
September 30, 2012, 11:49 am
I do agree with you on their marketing ploy. They succeeded in getting the attention at the expense of the 3 series. If they continue to put their money where their mouth is, fine tune their engines, transmissions and CUE, they can win on the Buy American sentiment alone.
BTW, I know you do not accept this, and I agree supply shortage has some to do with the latest decline in the F30 sales, but the strength of the G and C sales has already moved the needle. Ultimately all manufactures must look at the bottom line, how many units do you push out to this crowded market each month, regardless how much the car mags like yours over the other. A 5% enthusiasts leaving your base could make or break the bean counters' pay.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 11:54 am
No BMWs listed in the top cars that the auto writers would buy for under $100,000.
"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.
Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"
Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
September 30, 2012, 12:06 pm
"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.
Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"
Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
September 30, 2012, 12:35 pm
CA
September 30, 2012, 12:44 pm
CA
September 30, 2012, 12:46 pm
Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.
Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.
The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.
GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.
BJ
FWIW I was at the BMW sponsored Grand Am races at Lime Rock thid weekend and BMW had a huge presence and were definitely pushing the performance aspects of their cars.
CA
September 30, 2012, 12:48 pm
CA
September 30, 2012, 1:24 pm
September 30, 2012, 1:35 pm
September 30, 2012, 2:38 pm
"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.
Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"
Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
BJ
September 30, 2012, 2:43 pm
captainaudio If it was a defensive move by GM (and at this point in time any marketing move by GM is an offensive move) one could argue that BMW making the new 3 Series a less driver focused and more luxury oriented car (if that what they did - I have never driven an F30) could be viewed as a defensive move as well to avoid loosing sales to brands like Lexus.
No doubt it is. There aren't enough performance enthusiasts to make anything else worth their while.
FWIW I was at the BMW sponsored Grand Am races at Lime Rock thid weekend and BMW had a huge presence and were definitely pushing the performance aspects of their cars.
BMW still has a marketing budget to address the handful of performance enthusiasts left, it's no surprise that they'd use an event like this to push the performance aspects of their brand.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 2:46 pm
BJ
September 30, 2012, 2:52 pm
Who made that list anyways?
September 30, 2012, 3:08 pm
BJ
BMW does not make a car that competes with the Porsche 911 which is probably the most expensive car on the list.
September 30, 2012, 3:16 pm
I priced out a 911s a month ago and it came to 135,000. i dont know anyone that gets a 911s with no options.
September 30, 2012, 3:47 pm
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:01 pm
BMW does not make a car that competes with the Porsche 911 which is probably the most expensive car on the list.
For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:18 pm
For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.
BJ
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:40 pm
For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.
BJ
No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.
CA
September 30, 2012, 5:45 pm
No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.
CA
September 30, 2012, 5:51 pm
This is what you said. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
BJ
As for my wife, mind your ******* business.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:52 pm
No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.
CA
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:52 pm
September 30, 2012, 5:56 pm
For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 5:58 pm
September 30, 2012, 5:58 pm
1975 BMW 3.0CSi
2013 BMW 328i Luxury
2013 BMW Z4is
One vintage, one everyday, one weekend fun. Hair over $100,000, but who's counting?
BJ
September 30, 2012, 6:01 pm
Sedan-panamera s
Coupe-carman s
Convertible-Boxster S
SUV-X5m
September 30, 2012, 6:05 pm
I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
September 30, 2012, 6:17 pm
I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
The poster in question has an ulterior motive and doesn't have the best interests of BMW and F30 drivers in mind, different story.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 7:00 pm
September 30, 2012, 8:16 pm
1975 BMW 3.0CSi
2013 BMW 328i Luxury
2013 BMW Z4is
One vintage, one everyday, one weekend fun. Hair over $100,000, but who's counting?
BJ
September 30, 2012, 8:20 pm
BJ
Now what have I missed after the above post of BJ?
September 30, 2012, 8:29 pm
55% of the ATS is domestic. Engine is made in mexico.
September 30, 2012, 8:59 pm
"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.
Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"
Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
September 30, 2012, 9:19 pm
Oh that list of cars the journalists picked. Here is an example why they cannot be trusted when it comes to picking a winner in this segment. The entry level luxury sedan segment is supposedly the most demanding of all, has so many entries, must meet so many demands of the drivers and their families all at the same time.
Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
September 30, 2012, 9:46 pm
Oh that list of cars the journalists picked. Here is an example why they cannot be trusted when it comes to picking a winner in this segment. The entry level luxury sedan segment is supposedly the most demanding of all, has so many entries, must meet so many demands of the drivers and their families all at the same time.
Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
September 30, 2012, 10:32 pm
Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
If the money fairy came down and dropped $100 grand under your pillow, why go buy something you already have? Live the fantasy, get something different. There's a Ford and a Hyundai on the list, not really sure if the hillbilly vote counts here.
BJ
September 30, 2012, 10:39 pm
The fact those reviewers own 3 series, would that not disqualify them from reviewing other cars against the 3? Any judge faced with similar situation will long have excused him or herself from making the judgment.
September 30, 2012, 10:49 pm
For months you tell us how the ATS is coming to kick some BMW ass.
For months we tell you that no one is interested in dumping their BMW for a crappy GM with a brand-image problem.
The ATS finally arrives, a big oh-fer in two significant publications head-to-head reviews.
Someone digs up an obscure article about a dozen writers and their personal choices in cars around $100,000.
Now that the Cadillac has failed to crush the BMW 3, it's time for you to support the Ford Mustang Boss 302 and the Hyundai Veloster in your quest to tell F30 drivers that they're stupid.
I get that right?
BJ
September 30, 2012, 10:57 pm
September 30, 2012, 11:14 pm
For months you tell us how the ATS is coming to kick some BMW ass.
For months we tell you that no one is interested in dumping their BMW for a crappy GM with a brand-image problem.
The ATS finally arrives, a big oh-fer in two significant publications head-to-head reviews.
Someone digs up an obscure article about a dozen writers and their personal choices in cars around $100,000.
Now that the Cadillac has failed to crush the BMW 3, it's time for you to support the Ford Mustang Boss 302 and the Hyundai Veloster in your quest to tell F30 drivers that they're stupid.
I get that right?
BJ
September 30, 2012, 11:30 pm
I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.
That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?
Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.
BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
October 1, 2012, 12:13 am
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1
Bingo!
I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."
October 1, 2012, 12:48 am
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1
Bingo!
I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."
FYI, Mr. Sam Smith on slide #12 is also an in-house Roundel magazine columnist (you shall know him if you still have a valid BMWCCA membership)
Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track
Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)
"Side-mounted exhaust pipes loud enough to rattle dishes in the next county. A stick for a rear axle-solid, like a pickup truck's, and thus gloriously feisty. A 5.0-liter, 444-hp V8 that spins to a vibrasonic 7,500 rpm. Suspension that works a veritable miracle, performing well on both track and street. Drive one of these things, and you feel like the world's most sophisticated goon. Scratch that: you are the world's most sophisticated goon. I have stripes. Do you have stripes? No? Then get the hell out of the way."
October 1, 2012, 1:51 am
There were a number of them at the Sunday in the Park concours portion of the Lime Rock Historics on Labor Day Sunday. The first BMW I ever drove was a friends 2800 CS.
CA
October 1, 2012, 7:43 am
Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track
Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)
"Side-mounted exhaust pipes loud enough to rattle dishes in the next county. A stick for a rear axle-solid, like a pickup truck's, and thus gloriously feisty. A 5.0-liter, 444-hp V8 that spins to a vibrasonic 7,500 rpm. Suspension that works a veritable miracle, performing well on both track and street. Drive one of these things, and you feel like the world's most sophisticated goon. Scratch that: you are the world's most sophisticated goon. I have stripes. Do you have stripes? No? Then get the hell out of the way."
October 1, 2012, 8:20 am
I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.
That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?
Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.
BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
October 1, 2012, 8:26 am
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1
Bingo!
I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."
October 1, 2012, 9:16 am
A quote from the article: "Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K, with all the proper options ticked."
It also looks like being a automotive journalist is not a road to riches. Most are driving older cars, and it's nice to see how they are just like everyone else, mostly raising young families and having to set their priorities accordingly.
October 1, 2012, 10:09 am
http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...full-test.html
October 1, 2012, 10:21 am
I really do hate that we as Americans were forced to bail out GM and will probably never buy a GM vehicle because of it.
Compare the ATS vs. 3-series lease.
Caddy's challenge is getting people to buy an unknown new car (the ATS) for $20-30 less a month than the aggressive lease prices on a 3-series, a well-recognized and beloved model.
BJ
October 1, 2012, 10:55 am
A quote from the article: "Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K, with all the proper options ticked."
It also looks like being a automotive journalist is not a road to riches. Most are driving older cars, and it's nice to see how they are just like everyone else, mostly raising young families and having to set their priorities accordingly.
October 1, 2012, 10:58 am
October 1, 2012, 11:02 am
October 1, 2012, 11:09 am
The 3.6L will have the exhaust note, and the power to compete in this segment. But to do so, the 3.6L needs to have 328i's price.
The minimum MSRP for the most performance optioned ATS 3.6 is $48k. The most performance optioned F30 328i is only $39k, although without many fancy items such as navigation and LSD.
October 1, 2012, 11:31 am
No ATS content in this post, simply a summary of the Vanity Fair article, with my own commentary.
Eddie Alterman, Editor in Chief, Car and Driver
Current Car: 1983 Mercedes-Benz 300D
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG wagon ($98,950)
Brett Berk, Automotive Columnist, Vanity Fair
Current Cars: 2004 BMW 325i Sport, 1972 GMC Suburban 4x4
Car Pick: 2013 Audi A7 Prestige ($75,920)
Specifically mentions 3-series wagon would be #1 if it had been available.
Andrew Del-Colle, Associate Editor, Popular Mechanics
Current Car: None Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: Mini John Cooper Works Convertible ($51,723)
$52k?!?!?!?!?!
Hannah Elliott, Staff Reporter, Forbes
Current Car: My grandmother’s Chelsea boots Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S ($99,415)
Jake Fisher, Director of Auto Testing, Consumer Reports Cars
Current Cars: Consumer Reports’ test cars
Car Pick: 2013 Hyundai Veloster ($19,450)
Said he's going practical to afford dedicated track car
Justin Hyde, Senior Editor, Motoramic, the Yahoo! Autos blog
Current Car: 2010 Mazda 5
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid ($98,970)
Jean Jennings, Editor in Chief, Automobile
Current Car: 2007 Chevrolet Suburban
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG ($95,900)
Davey Johnson, Senior Online Editor, West Coast, Autoweek
Current Car: 1994 Chevy K1500 Blazer
Car Pick: Jaguar XF Supercharged ($72,225)
"In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no." Personally, I don't pay attention to what others are driving when making vehicle choices. YMMV.
Jamie Kitman, New York Bureau Chief, Automobile; Contributor, GQ, Yahoo! Autos, NPR’s Car Talk
Current Cars: An assortment of 30+ vintage European vehicles
Car Pick: Lotus Evora S ($83,745)
Jonny Lieberman, Senior Features Editor, Motor Trend
Current Car: 2001 Subaru WRX Wagon
Car Pick: Subaru BRZ ($27,900)
"Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K."
Alex Nunez, Senior Editor, Autos, ConsumerSearch.com
Current Car: 2006 Ford Mustang GT
Car Pick: Tesla Model S Performance ($92,400—before $7,500 federal tax credit)
Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track
Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)
Hoon.
Tamara Warren, Freelance Automotive Journalist, Forbes, Gotryke, Gearist
Current Cars: 1983 Dodge Diplomat, 1988 Dodge Diplomat, 1965 Dodge Coronet
Car Pick: 2013 Range Rover Evoque ($60,095)
October 1, 2012, 11:35 am
I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.
That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?
Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.
BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
October 1, 2012, 11:45 am
I sat in Tesla Model S several times, it was surprisingly large both inside and out. If it can be smaller, lighter, and I have money to waste, it will be a perfect dedicated track car, just enough range per charge for max fun on the track.
October 1, 2012, 11:48 am
The minimum MSRP for the most performance optioned ATS 3.6 is $48k. The most performance optioned F30 328i is only $39k, although without many fancy items such as navigation and LSD.
My M-Sport is still incredibly light on options and MSRP'd for $43k. An averagely equipped car is $43-45k. If you option both cars to be competitive with each other, a $39k F30 is not going to cut it against an V-6 ATS.
October 1, 2012, 12:48 pm
My M-Sport is still incredibly light on options and MSRP'd for $43k. An averagely equipped car is $43-45k. If you option both cars to be competitive with each other, a $39k F30 is not going to cut it against an V-6 ATS.
I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
October 1, 2012, 12:52 pm
I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
October 1, 2012, 1:04 pm
I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
October 1, 2012, 1:52 pm
October 1, 2012, 1:58 pm
October 1, 2012, 1:58 pm
They can throw the 6 speed from the Camaro ZL1 in there.
October 1, 2012, 2:23 pm
I did not notice much difference between the sport seat and the standard seat in the ATS. If nice sport seats are the priority, one should try the Audi S4. It is not just front sport seats, but back seats too.
October 1, 2012, 2:51 pm
They can throw the 6 speed from the Camaro ZL1 in there.
October 1, 2012, 2:59 pm
October 1, 2012, 3:11 pm
October 3, 2012, 3:47 pm
This article was posted in the E90 section by kck7. I found it oh so fitting to this thread, and like an ode to BJ.
Such classic lines as- 'The sort of person who buys a BMW would rather be force fed Velveeta cubes than drive a Cadillac.'
Or this classic - "BMW logo, declaring that it stood for "Beauty. Money. Wealth."
Read more: [http://www.askmen.com/cars/car_tips/...#ixzz28GgHPjvN
I have to admit that I was a Yuppie back in the day starting in the latter 1970s. Then my wife and I became DINKs.
October 3, 2012, 3:50 pm