MotorTrend: 328i vs ATS

by Bimmerfest.com Member - -=Hot|Ice=- on September 26, 2012, 9:45 pm


On this episode of Head 2 Head, Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman pits the all-new Cadillac ATS against the car it was built to compete with, the dominating BMW 328i. Jonny uses test data to illustrate how similar these two cars are and then takes them out for a true drivers test on one of his favorite California back roads.


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239 responses to MotorTrend: 328i vs ATS

virus86 commented:
September 26, 2012, 10:33 pm

3 series FTW!
328i2013 commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:17 am

I think caddy bribed him. Plus he doesn't talk about looks. The caddy is fugly.
enigma commented:
September 27, 2012, 4:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328i2013 View Post
I think caddy bribed him. Plus he doesn't talk about looks. The caddy is fugly.
I guess Caddy didn't bribe him enough since he declared the 328i the winner?

It was a very poorly done comparo. I would have liked to have Carlos Lago (also from MT) do the review instead.
328i2013 commented:
September 27, 2012, 8:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I guess Caddy didn't bribe him enough since he declared the 328i the winner?
He's barely declaring BMW as the winner. Makes it sound like it was very very close. Like he was doing BMW a favor by declaring the F30 winner.
windsor027 commented:
September 27, 2012, 9:33 am

yea most of us comment on this in the other ATS thread. Supposedly the MT let the Caddy down. But honestly this guy is a idiot because he tries his best to say that the MT in the BMW is also trash. Well some of us that have driven BMWs MTs for years can only laugh as his dumb ass comments. How do these guys get these jobs man?
captainaudio commented:
September 27, 2012, 9:55 am

The reality is that the vast majority of both of these cars will be equuiped with ATs. It will be interesting to see how the two cars compare when the AT versions are tested. I am nor sure what the AT in the Cadillac will be but the ZF 8 Speed in the F30 has set the bar pretty high.

CA
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 27, 2012, 9:58 am

The review was really weird. He kind of trashed the E90 and F30's 6 speed. He hated the transmission in the ATS but said its a better, sportier chassis.
dtc100 commented:
September 27, 2012, 11:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328i2013 View Post
I think caddy bribed him. Plus he doesn't talk about looks. The caddy is fugly.
I am glad about one thing in that review, he did not compare the looks. Over at the ATS forums, there are many past and current BMW owners, the overwhelming reason they decided to switch from their Bimmers to the ATS, is they think the new F30 looks fugly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 27, 2012, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am glad about one thing in that review, he did not compare the looks. Over at the ATS forums, there are many past and current BMW owners, the overwhelming reason they decided to switch from their Bimmers to the ATS, is they think the new F30 looks fugly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
The ATS is one of the best looking sedans on the market today. Much, much better exterior styling than the F30 IMO.
CE750Jockey commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The ATS is one of the best looking sedans on the market today. Much, much better exterior styling than the F30 IMO.
I couldn't disagree more. The angular look of Caddy's is not for me. But to each his own.

The significant takeaway for me is this: Year after year, article after article, it's always the 3 Series that's the benchmark. That says a lot about this car's place in the pantheon of historically great cars. The Caddy's a good car, but it lacks the pedigree of the 3.
328i2013 commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The ATS is one of the best looking sedans on the market today. Much, much better exterior styling than the F30 IMO.
Disagree completely. It's just too bulky, too angular and appears unbalanced. Old school caddys were elegant (not fast looking but elegant). New ones don't stand for much, other than just being different than older caddys and have an identity crisis. Kinda like Romney...
windsor027 commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The ATS is one of the best looking sedans on the market today. Much, much better exterior styling than the F30 IMO.
Hey I am glad you like it. Personally I find, especially the back as one of the most ugly cars out there.
JoeFromPA commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:37 pm

The concept that caddy hit the 3-series benchmark in the inception of a new model, let alone the evolution, is indicative of the competition in this segment but also the inability to sustain constant true driving-dynamic-innovation in each model cycle.

Will the ATS sell well? IDK. The BMW 3-series doesn't sell well because it's the driving pinnacle - it sells well because of cheap lease deals and the desire to obtain the image associated with a BMW 3-series. Caddy has to steal into that segment, as Infiniti's G-series has accomplished well.
Chris90 commented:
September 27, 2012, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The concept that caddy hit the 3-series benchmark in the inception of a new model, let alone the evolution, is indicative of the competition in this segment but also the inability to sustain constant true driving-dynamic-innovation in each model cycle.

Will the ATS sell well? IDK. The BMW 3-series doesn't sell well because it's the driving pinnacle - it sells well because of cheap lease deals and the desire to obtain the image associated with a BMW 3-series. Caddy has to steal into that segment, as Infiniti's G-series has accomplished well.
I don't think Caddy cares who they steal from (Infiniti, Lexus, Audi etc).

I like the overall shape of the ATS (which is basically identical to a 3 series), but don't like the details, like the chrome.

For this reason I think the ATS-V might be a looker. It's gotta have a V8 though, a turbo V6 is just meh.
JoeFromPA commented:
September 27, 2012, 1:43 pm

Caddy (and GM) specialize in making the finest v8's under $100k - N/A or supercharged. If they shove a 6.0 liter + in the ATS, it'll go on my list simply because large displacement RWD sport sedans with manual transmission are fairly hard to find. To wit: I drive an e39 m5 because I had to go back 10 years to find one I really liked.
captainaudio commented:
September 27, 2012, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CE750Jockey View Post
I couldn't disagree more. The angular look of Caddy's is not for me. But to each his own.

The significant takeaway for me is this: Year after year, article after article, it's always the 3 Series that's the benchmark. That says a lot about this car's place in the pantheon of historically great cars. The Caddy's a good car, but it lacks the pedigree of the 3.
You can't drive a pedigree.
What happened in the past is all well and good but as they say in the music business "You are only as good as your last hit record"

CA
dtc100 commented:
September 27, 2012, 2:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
You can't drive a pedigree.
What happened in the past is all well and good but as they say in the music business "You are only as good as your last hit record"

CA
I think in this car business, you are only as good as what you do now, not what you had in the past.
dtc100 commented:
September 27, 2012, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The BMW 3-series doesn't sell well because it's the driving pinnacle - it sells well because of cheap lease deals and the desire to obtain the image associated with a BMW 3-series. Caddy has to steal into that segment, as Infiniti's G-series has accomplished well.
The 3 series has among the highest lease payments in this segment. Infiniti G did well lately likely because of their fantastic lease deals.

I don't see ATS leases matching G's any time soon.
JoeFromPA commented:
September 27, 2012, 2:57 pm

Yes, Infiniti has replicated BMW's leasing model to drive sales, and with their lower MSRP they can get better deals.

I agree, the G series took 2 model cycles and a number of years of exposure to really grab hold like it is now. The ATS is walking into the scene unknown.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 27, 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Yes, Infiniti has replicated BMW's leasing model to drive sales, and with their lower MSRP they can get better deals.

I agree, the G series took 2 model cycles and a number of years of exposure to really grab hold like it is now. The ATS is walking into the scene unknown.
They are having unreal deals on the G. If I was in the market for a new car right now, it would be on top of my list.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 27, 2012, 3:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328i2013 View Post
Disagree completely. It's just too bulky, too angular and appears unbalanced. Old school caddys were elegant (not fast looking but elegant). New ones don't stand for much, other than just being different than older caddys and have an identity crisis. Kinda like Romney...
I kind of feel the same way about the 3. The rear is a copy of the 5 series and looks way too bulky, you almost have to look twice to see the difference between the two. The front is too pointy with a hump on the hood. Also no round halos, no care and what is up with that ugly chrome grille extending into the headlights. The ATS on the other hand is so much more well proportioned and everything just flows much better than with the 3. Only thing I dislike about the ATS is the chrome moldings, kind of like the luxury line 328 On the other hand, the M package makes the 3 look much better.
GVFlyer commented:
September 27, 2012, 7:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The ATS is one of the best looking sedans on the market today. Much, much better exterior styling than the F30 IMO.
De gustibus non est disputandem.

I think the Caddy ATS is hideous. It reminds me of a kid's Transformers toy, but rather than a giant robot, it's likely to morph into a toaster.
justinnum1 commented:
September 27, 2012, 8:06 pm

ATS is ugly, but thats just my opinion. Looks so bland, no character.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 27, 2012, 11:54 pm



"I'm so grateful for the boys over at the Bimmerfest forum for creating yet another thread about the new Caddy. I'd buy one myself, but it's too small, too harsh to ride. My wife might get one, though. She just loved our little Seville back in the day. Can I order an ATS in Champagne Pink with a vinyl landau roof?"

--Grandpa DeVille

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 1:37 am

For all the pride BJ has in his 328i, he has yet had the balls to post with his car, while he is more than eager to laugh at others.
Jon Shafer commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I think in this car business, you are only as good as what you do now, not what you had in the past.
Always. Forget what you did last month. How many did you sell today?



I predict the Caddy will fail in head-to-head combat with F30.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


"I'm so grateful for the boys over at the Bimmerfest forum for creating yet another thread about the new Caddy. I'd buy one myself, but it's too small, too harsh to ride. My wife might get one, though. She just loved our little Seville back in the day. Can I order an ATS in Champagne Pink with a vinyl landau roof?"

--Grandpa DeVille

BJ
That is a NICE car! Is that you?
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
That is a NICE car! Is that you?
When are you buying one?

Another E90 owner talking a big, tough game in his used car. You aren't buying an F30, you like being seen in unfashionable past-prime status symbols, go back to the E9X subforum where you can get a little respect from the rest of the 18 year olds who just bought their 2009 E90‘s with their summer job money.

BJ
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
When are you buying one?

Another E90 owner talking a big, tough game in his used car. You aren't buying an F30, you like being seen in unfashionable past-prime status symbols, go back to the E9X subforum where you can get a little respect from the rest of the 18 year olds who just bought their 2009 E90‘s with their summer job money.

BJ
My "used" E90 is more of a BMW than your luxury line Lexus, I mean F30 will ever be.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
My "used" E90 is more of a BMW than your luxury line Lexus, I mean F30 will ever be.
Says who? A bunch of out of style 2006-era 3 Series owners, that's who.

In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.

BJ
CE750Jockey commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:25 am



I love a good cat fight.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Says who? A bunch of out of style 2006-era 3 Series owners, that's who.

In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.

BJ
Insideline:

What Needs Work:

"Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional."

C/D:

"What we're left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we'd grown to love the old personality....This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i's virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if you're put off by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there"

Try harder
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I guess Caddy didn't bribe him enough since he declared the 328i the winner?

It was a very poorly done comparo. I would have liked to have Carlos Lago (also from MT) do the review instead.
+1 - when I saw the post I was expecting a Carlos review.
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Shafer View Post

I predict the Caddy will fail in head-to-head combat with F30.
Having just driven an ATS I agree. I do think the ATS will end up expanding the market to buyers who like the IDEA of being a 3 Series driver, but who aren't in reality 3er drivers. The ATS will give them something like a 3er and better than a C Class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Says who? A bunch of out of style 2006-era 3 Series owners, that's who.

In between the sporty E46 and the luxurious F30 was a pimple-on-the-ass mistake called the E90. A car too big and heavy to be sporty. A car too plain and spartan to be luxurious. Not our fault you're pissed that you're stuck in one. Go back to your E9X forum and talk about E90 love and F30 hate over there. We don't care about your inferiority issues over here.

BJ
BJ, you've made it pretty clear over the years you don't actually know anything about cars as it relates to engineering, mechanics, and performance. You need to stick with what you know, before you make yourself sound COMPLETELY STUPID.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post

BJ, you've made it pretty clear over the years you don't actually know anything about cars as it relates to engineering, mechanics, and performance. You need to stick with what you know, before you make yourself sound COMPLETELY STUPID.
I have a better idea.

You can take your negative opinions of the F30 back to the E9X forum where they are more appropriate. We like coming here to discuss the F30. We don't like having to defend ourselves every day from people who used to be our friends and now relish the opportunity to sh-t all over us.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I have a better idea.

You can take your negative opinions of the F30 back to the E9X forum where they are more appropriate. We like coming here to discuss the F30. We don't like having to defend ourselves every day from people who used to be our friends and now relish the opportunity to sh-t all over us.

BJ
Maybe a even better idea is you stay out of this kind discussions, so the voice of many long time BMW 3 drivers can be heard by BMW, without them constantly being reminded how a bunch of BMW drivers are such snobs?
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Maybe a even better idea is you stay out of this kind discussions, so the voice of many long time BMW 3 drivers can be heard by BMW, without them constantly being reminded how a bunch of BMW drivers are such snobs?
"...so the voice of many long-time 3 Series drivers can be heard by BMW..."

And that, my friends, is the agenda. The Cult Of E90 think that BMW is watching Bimmerfest, scouring threads for feedback. And they think that this forum filled with F30 owners is the place to sh-t all over our cars because....shh....big brother is watching and he's going to use the shrink-ray and restore the 3 Series back to E36 proportions.

dtc: Your agenda is pointless. All it is doing is aggravating otherwise-happy F30 owners. Stop. Stop now. You think you're quest is noble. It isn't. It's just annoying.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"...so the voice of many long-time 3 Series drivers can be heard by BMW..."

And that, my friends, is the agenda. The Cult Of E90 think that BMW is watching Bimmerfest, scouring threads for feedback. And they think that this forum filled with F30 owners is the place to sh-t all over our cars because....shh....big brother is watching and he's going to use the shrink-ray and restore the 3 Series back to E36 proportions.

dtc: Your agenda is pointless. All it is doing is aggravating otherwise-happy F30 owners. Stop. Stop now. You think you're quest is noble. It isn't. It's just annoying.

BJ
It is precisely voices from such forums that prompted BMW to make several changes of E90 design mid term. Don't read them if you are annoyed.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
It is precisely voices from such forums that prompted BMW to make several changes of E90 design mid term. Don't read them if you are annoyed.
LOL. You're delusional.

Email BMW yourself. Stop polluting the F30 forum with anti-F30 threads. We don't want to see it or hear it any more. You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda and an awful thread-spamming strategy that annoys legitimate F30 owners.

Stop it now.

BJ
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Insideline:

What Needs Work:

"Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional."

C/D:

"What we're left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we'd grown to love the old personality....This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i's virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if you're put off by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there"

Try harder
Great. There is another poster who makes it a point to quote some idiot's opinions after test driving the F30. Once again i am going to say have YOU test drove the car? I have you test drove the different models and build F30s? And if you did why would you post this guy's comments. What do you agree with and why.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 12:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Great. There is another poster who makes it a point to quote some idiot's opinions after test driving the F30. Once again i am going to say have YOU test drove the car? I have you test drove the different models and build F30s? And if you did why would you post this guy's comments. What do you agree with and why.
You do realize the reason the 3 series has enjoyed its success for so long, has everything to do with those reviews? Maybe you never care what others say, but without those mags and their reviews over the years, I suspect you would not be driving a 3 today, because it would not be on anyone's radar screen.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 12:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
LOL. You're delusional.
Says the guy who thinks he represent 98%.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 12:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
LOL. You're delusional.

Email BMW yourself. Stop polluting the F30 forum with anti-F30 threads. We don't want to see it or hear it any more. You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda and an awful thread-spamming strategy that annoys legitimate F30 owners.

Stop it now.

BJ
Tell em bj. To many trolls on this site lol.
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 1:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You do realize the reason the 3 series has enjoyed its success for so long, has everything to do with those reviews? Maybe you never care what others say, but without those mags and their reviews over the years, I suspect you would not be driving a 3 today, because it would not be on anyone's radar screen.
You are wrong as my father was a big BMW fan, so you can say I grew up with the family always having one.

But I can bet you bought a 3-series because these magazines gave it those reviews.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 28, 2012, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Great. There is another poster who makes it a point to quote some idiot's opinions after test driving the F30. Once again i am going to say have YOU test drove the car? I have you test drove the different models and build F30s? And if you did why would you post this guy's comments. What do you agree with and why.
They are hardly "idiots". Like it or not those guys test drive all different makes and report the results, that is their job. You may not agree with their findings, but they say it how it is. You shouldn't buy your vehicle based solely on what the reviews say, however they have a lot more experience behind the wheel then you do.
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
They are hardly "idiots". Like it or not those guys test drive all different makes and report the results, that is their job. You may not agree with their findings, but they say it how it is. You shouldn't buy your vehicle based solely on what the reviews say, however they have a lot more experience behind the wheel then you do.
When the reviewer said BMW's MT is blah, that made this guy an idiot in my book. Don't be just another American that takes what the media tell you as the truth. Hell if I did that then that review covered me right? He said BMW won, his publication a few months ago made the F30 the overall winner in a test of 8 cars by a mile at that. How do I know if this guy is not getting some kickback to say the one or the other car is better?

test drive the cars then form your own opinion.

they may drive a lot of cars but then I owned the E90 as I have stated. I lived with it for almost 3 years. So to answer your question yea i am much better qualified to say that the F30 is a much better overall car than the E90, especially when it comes to the 328i line.
enigma commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:39 pm

This game has become so predictable.

If you don't like the latest BMW being discussed, you are one or more of the following:

A. Can't afford the latest/greatest.
B. Just unhappy because your car got replace by a "better" and newer model.
C. Paid shill for Audi, Lexus, Porsche, etc.
D. Just a plain idiot and can't appreciate all the "improvements" for lack of knowledge and/or good taste.

I can appreciate both sides of arguments, and we are here because we are supposedly BMW, and more importantly, car "enthusiasts". Exchanging our ideas, opinions and POVs is what the forum is all about.

But, I see a bunch of bullies who want nothing but like-minded people hi-fiving and padding each other's back for singing praises of the latest BMW.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
You are wrong as my father was a big BMW fan, so you can say I grew up with the family always having one.
You do realize your father is part of "others"? Are you still insisting you only listen to yourself?

Quote:
But I can bet you bought a 3-series because these magazines gave it those reviews.
I suggest you try a different hobby. While I do not ever dismiss others, including the mags, I actually decided on my 328i by driving many in this segment myself. Almost went with G37 until the last minute. Don't regret my decision at all.

BTW I will do the same for my next car. That is not to say I should ignore anyone else's opinion, whether from mags, or from BJ as a matter of fact, provided the opinion is relevant to the merit of the car.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
When the reviewer said BMW's MT is blah, that made this guy an idiot in my book. Don't be just another American that takes what the media tell you as the truth. Hell if I did that then that review covered me right? He said BMW won, his publication a few months ago made the F30 the overall winner in a test of 8 cars by a mile at that. How do I know if this guy is not getting some kickback to say the one or the other car is better?

test drive the cars then form your own opinion.

they may drive a lot of cars but then I owned the E90 as I have stated. I lived with it for almost 3 years. So to answer your question yea i am much better qualified to say that the F30 is a much better overall car than the E90, especially when it comes to the 328i line.
Have you driven others cars lately? Have you driven an ATS? If not, you have less credibility trashing one who had done so, even if his comment may sound off.

Besides, he was not the only one who disliked the manual in the ATS. And he is also not the only one who disliked manual in a BMW either.
elistan commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:53 pm

Some background - I'm an S2000 owner. I like fun, engaging cars. But it was time to get a sedan with AT. So I went searching (and it needed to be something fun to drive.)

I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.

Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...

So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...

Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.

Edit - just wanted to add that this isn't intended to belittle anybody who perfers the E90 (heck, I prefer the AP1 S2000 when the majority of folk say the AP2 is superior. ) But I felt like adding in my opinion as somebody new to the BMW world, without any prior prefernces. Sorry I don't have much about the ATS to add.
clippernation commented:
September 28, 2012, 2:54 pm

Wow, this is a far cry from the civility and sense of the diesel forum. I'm all for discussions on disagreements, but this is madness. Let's try to get back on topic shall we? Anyone ever take a spin in both the f30 and ATS? Impressions? I thought long and hard about getting a ATS before I got a great deal on my F30.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Some background - I'm an S2000 owner. I like fun, engaging cars. But it was time to get a sedan with AT. So I went searching (and it needed to be something fun to drive.)

I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.

Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...

So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...

Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.
No. The e90 base 328 does suck. The N52 seriously lacks power.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
This game has become so predictable.

If you don't like the latest BMW being discussed, you are one or more of the following:

A. Can't afford the latest/greatest.
B. Just unhappy because your car got replace by a "better" and newer model.
C. Paid shill for Audi, Lexus, Porsche, etc.
D. Just a plain idiot and can't appreciate all the "improvements" for lack of knowledge and/or good taste.

I can appreciate both sides of arguments, and we are here because we are supposedly BMW, and more importantly, car "enthusiasts". Exchanging our ideas, opinions and POVs is what the forum is all about.

But, I see a bunch of bullies who want nothing but like-minded people hi-fiving and padding each other's back for singing praises of the latest BMW.
Some people are not used to others disagreeing with them, they conclude it must be something wrong with those others if they disagree.

When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.

Ok, the last part was joking.
Michael Schott commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
No. The e90 base 328 does suck. The N52 seriously lacks power.
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
I too have a E90 328, personally i thinks it lacks a low end power, the engine is smooth i just wish it had more low end power.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Some people are not used to others disagreeing with them, they conclude it must be something wrong with those others if they disagree.

When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.

Ok, the last part was joking.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:55 pm

I admit it, I am not blown away by the 6mt in my F30. It's a bit rubbery, a bit vague, not very hard to trip it up on a FAST 2-3 shift. I would not go as far to as calling it BAD. I prefer the shifting in my E36/7, but it's very deliberate, very mechanical, might not be everyone's cup of tea.

Fact is, If my F30 order were to have gotten any more F-ed up I would have waited and driven an ATS 2.0T 6mt. Fact is, it is the most worthy 3 series competitor I have seen.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 28, 2012, 3:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
The E90 N52 as well as the 1 series N52 are very similar in terms of specs to the E36 M3, at least on paper. The N20 is actually quicker and makes more power to the wheels.
Michael Schott commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
Of course it does. It has significantly less HP and torque than the N20. I was not comparing the N52 to the N20. Also, I'm sure your E92 loaner had an AT and that transmission does that engine no favors. It's a much different story with the MT.
Chris90 commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I too have a E90 328, personally i thinks it lacks a low end power, the engine is smooth i just wish it had more low end power.
It is N/A, high revving engine.

In any case, the comparison here is F30 vs. ATS.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
I think a nice exhaust will compensate for the lack of good sound of the N20.

Of course a 6 should sound better than a 4, an 8 should sound better than a 6. I am curious to see how the ATS 3.6 sounds. Those who drove it all liked the 3.6's exhaust sound, there were little comment about the engine sound.
enigma commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
Sure you can! That's what the speakers are for, like in the F10 M5!

OK, I am just kidding
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The E90 N52 as well as the 1 series N52 are very similar in terms of specs to the E36 M3, at least on paper. The N20 is actually quicker and makes more power to the wheels.
NO.

I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Of course it does. It has significantly less HP and torque than the N20. I was not comparing the N52 to the N20. Also, I'm sure your E92 loaner had an AT and that transmission does that engine no favors. It's a much different story with the MT.
I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.

But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
3ismagic# commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:55 pm

I personally do not care for the styling of the caddy inside or out. But styling is very subjective and no doubt many others prefer the looks of the caddy over the F30.

The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.

At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.

GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
Michael Schott commented:
September 28, 2012, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
NO.

I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.



I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.

But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.



You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
Different car magazines will post different results but in Car and Driver the AT F30 328i did 0-60 in 5.4 and the MT N52 328i 5.9 seconds. That's significant but your numbers are way off.

I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Have you driven others cars lately? Have you driven an ATS? If not, you ave less credibility trashing one who had done so, even if his comment may sound off.

Besides, he was not the only one who disliked the manual in the ATS. And he is also not the only one who disliked manual in a BMW either.
In the past year I have driven an A4, S4, Golf R, G37S, F30 328i and 335i, and as stated I just turned in a C350. No I have not driven the ATS when I made my decision it was not available and honestly I just don't like the looks of it so most likely I would not have bothered.

Preference wise
335i
328i
S4
G37S
Golf R
A4

I would not consider any Mercedes because they don't offer a MT this model year. If price was an issue hands down the winner would have been the G37S Sedan, is that good so If they improve the ride and come up with something similar to the F30 DHP this is the car that would challenge the F30 IMO.

Now does that make me an authority to criticize the caddy? no, and I never cut the car down. All I said when this journalist called the BMW MT average or something like it, that raised a HUGE red flag for me. Its a great box, you just need to know how to drive it correctly and obviously this guy didn't. I have had plenty of BMW manuals to know what they are, feel like and how they interact with the car and driver.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 28, 2012, 5:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
I personally do not care for the styling of the caddy inside or out. But styling is very subjective and no doubt many others prefer the looks of the caddy over the F30.

The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.

At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.

GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
Agree 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Different car magazines will post different results but in Car and Driver the AT F30 328i did 0-60 in 5.4 and the MT N52 328i 5.9 seconds. That's significant but your numbers are way off.

I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
Hmm, I had never seen an N52 crack 6 seconds. My bad!

I don't know what tangent you speak of. I am one of the few speaking level headed-ly round these parts.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 7:20 pm

C&D's comparison is in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzrhL...e_gdata_player

The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 8:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
C&D's comparison is in:

The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda to bend BMW's ear so they build you an E46. You admitted this earlier today.

Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda to bend BMW's ear so they build you an E46. You admitted this earlier today.

Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.

BJ
I am not alone, the C&D guy said even though the F30 328i is a better car than the ATS 2.0T, he liked the fun driving part of the ATS and believe BMW should put more fun back into the 3.

You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
Chris90 commented:
September 28, 2012, 8:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
C&D's comparison is in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzrhL...e_gdata_player

The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
They said the Caddy is more fun to drive. Has Hell frozen over? WTF, BMW, do we have to spend $70k to have a fun BMW?
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am not alone, the C&D guy said even though the F30 328i is a better car than the ATS 2.0T, he liked the fun driving part of the ATS and believe BMW should put more fun back into the 3.

You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
He should have tested and F30 with the adaptive suspension. he would have had a lot of fun.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
He should have tested and F30 with the adaptive suspension. he would have had a lot of fun.
i have plenty of fun in my 328 sportline with passive 704
windsor027 commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i have plenty of fun in my 328 sportline with passive 704
I would agree but just like the damn S4 and 335i tests these reviewers forget that BMW does offer adaptive suspension which can change the handling characteristics. So this caddy had the magnetic shocks, why not test a 328i with the adaptive suspension. Another thing, what tires did the 328i have on? it makes a world of difference.

The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas millage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
enigma commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I would agree but just like the damn S4 and 335i tests these reviewers forget that BMW does offer adaptive suspension which can change the handling characteristics. So this caddy had the magnetic shocks, why not test a 328i with the adaptive suspension. Another thing, what tires did the 328i have on? it makes a world of difference.

The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas millage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
Both reviews (MT and C&D) seemed to have tested the Sport Line, which presumably comes with the sport suspension (please correct me if I am wrong here). Please note that none of the reviewers ever complained the ride was too harsh. The common complaint is that the ride is still too soft or the steering is not communicative and linear enough.

Also, the test cars are typically supplied by the manufacturers. If anything, it's BMW's fault for not furnishing a properly equipped car for reviews.

As for the tires, I agree with you (and I would go one step further and ask BMW to give an option for non-RFT), but they keep insisting on these mediocre tires unless you opt for the expensive M-Sport line.
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
He should have tested and F30 with the adaptive suspension. he would have had a lot of fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i have plenty of fun in my 328 sportline with passive 704
Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I would agree but just like the damn S4 and 335i tests these reviewers forget that BMW does offer adaptive suspension which can change the handling characteristics. So this caddy had the magnetic shocks, why not test a 328i with the adaptive suspension. Another thing, what tires did the 328i have on? it makes a world of difference.

The one thing that BMW messed up IMO with the F30 is to go balls out with the Sportline for gas mileage. The Sportline should have had at least 245-40/18s on, and they be summer performance tires standard, while all season should be optional.
Exactly what I was going to say. They don't tell you specifically what suspensions or tires the cars have. They don't compare apples to apples. These comparos have very limited usefulness. One of the main valid comparisons he made was the utility of CUE. And it is exactly what I was thinking as the Cadillac product specialist was telling us how wonderful it was. One "everyday" gentleman did comment on all the finger prints on the screen and ask how to clean it. But, I held my tongue and didn't challenge her on each point as she went along. Just seemed it would be bad form since they did let us rag on their CTS-Vs all day.

For the same reason, I didn't point out that most of the wonderful "new" technology they were touting as the latest and greatest for Cadillac and the ATS is already on my 2006 E90 330i and has been on the higher end Bimmers since before that. He did ask if anyone knew what brake drying technology was. When I said yes he seemed quite surprised. He asked how I knew. I said, "you don't want to know." He pressed. I said, "because I've had it on my BMW 3 Series for the past six years."

BMWNA bears a lot of the responsibility for the lack of apples to apples testing/comparing. These car rags compare the cars the manufacturers supply to them. BMW needs to supply cars with ZDH and summer tires.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 9:55 pm

lol
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i have plenty of fun in my 328 sportline with passive 704
My Luxury line is tons of fun with its quick acceleration, smooth shifting, and easy steering. Yeah, I lose a little stickiness in the twisties but straight-line the F30 is an absolute blast.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My Luxury line is tons of fun with its quick acceleration, smooth shifting, and easy steering. Yeah, I lose a little stickiness in the twisties but straight-line the F30 is an absolute blast.

BJ
That's what all of us Bimmerphiles care about, BJ - straight line acceleration
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
That's what all of us Bimmerphiles care about, BJ - straight line acceleration
Don't know what to tell you other than BMW didn't build the F30 by mistake. It's what their customers want. We don't track the thing. We drive our kids to ballet in it. We drive it on highways to visit grandma.

So if adding the stiffest, most adaptive suspension still doesn't cut it by your precious standards, enjoy your E90, go buy a vintage E36 as a weekend car, and move on. BMW has changed the 3 Series. You don't like it. We get it. Move on. No point in whining about it.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:33 pm

Grandpa BJ is grumpy again.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
They said the Caddy is more fun to drive. Has Hell frozen over? WTF, BMW, do we have to spend $70k to have a fun BMW?
Maybe that is what it takes these days.

If GM screws up on the sound of the 3.6L also, then game over as far as I am concerned.

But wait, this seems exactly what this reviewer thought

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Grandpa BJ is grumpy again.
Apparently Grandpa BJ has turned into an illiterate, senile, angry, idiot who can't read, recall or comprehend the posts I've made or remember who the people are who advocated for his satire when the majority told him to go f-off. I guess maybe the majority was correct.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Grandpa BJ is grumpy again.
If there's a grandpa in the room it's the one who's pining away to own a Cadillac, and that surely isn't me. I'm not grumpy at all. I love my car.

I'm not all conflicted inside, stuck in a 7 year old bodystyle that hasn't aged gracefully, wishing ill-will on my BMW brothers in their new cars, praying that Cadillac crushes the 3 Series. I'm not the one upset, looking at my old car each day, delusionally believing that BMW will listen to me, turn back the hands of time, make the E46 of my dreams again.

None of you are race car drivers. The 3 Series is not a race car. The problem is that you fail to realize those simple truths.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Apparently Grandpa BJ has turned into an illiterate, senile, angry, idiot who can't read, recall or comprehend the posts I've made or remember who the people are who advocated for his satire when the majority told him to go f-off. I guess maybe the majority was correct.
The majority is always right, even if technically they are wrong. I have said grandpa BJ would do well moving to North Korea, he would be a good communication minister there.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Apparently Grandpa BJ has turned into an illiterate, senile, angry, idiot who can't read, recall or comprehend the posts I've made or remember who the people are who advocated for his satire when the majority told him to go f-off. I guess maybe the majority was correct.
BJ remembers a fun tturedraider. Not this imposter who likes to sh-t on his new car.

This isn't satire. I'm genuinely offended by the demeanor of the E90 owners who have no business in the F30 forum other than to bash our cars. Is that not apparent to you, what you're doing and how it can be interpreted?

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you want the F30 to look like the E90 and handle like the E46. That's not happening, so is your point to go round in circles on this for the next 7 years until the next 3 Series is launched? If so, isn't the E90 forum the most appropriate place to do that?

BJ
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2012, 10:58 pm

I have talked to people from BMW North America a number of times and have attended events where they spoke to owners and I have been given cars for extended test drives.

BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.

BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.

The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.

Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,

CA
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have talked to people from BMW North America a number of times and have attended events where they spoke to owners and I have been given cars for extended test drives.

BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.

BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.

The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.

Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,

CA
Good point. but I think the majority of average joe customers buy based on perception.

Currently the perception of BMW has much greater prestige than cadillac. Now, that can change but it will take a long time and certainly more than just one car model.
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Good point. but I think the majority of average joe customers buy based on perception.

Currently the perception of BMW has much greater prestige than cadillac. Now, that can change but it will take a long time and certainly more than just one car model.
Perception and prestige can change very rapidly.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have talked to people from BMW North America a number of times and have attended events where they spoke to owners and I have been given cars for extended test drives.

BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.

BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.

The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.

Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,

CA
Good post.

And my contention is that the F30 is exactly what you describe. Sporty, luxurious, fast, comfortable, and beautiful. The blend of everything one would want. We never could say that about any other 3 Series before. That's why the F30 is so special.

M-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Modern, Base. Sport+, Sport, Comfort, Eco. Adaptive, Sport, Standard.

Mix and match, it's the most customizable 3 ever, something for everyone. Push it 10% any which-way. Make it more luxurious, check. Make it more sporty, check. Push a button to drive to the mall. Push a button to race the curves. You will need to compromise on interior colors, but you can build the exact F30 you want to suit however you want to drive. That's ultimately it's biggest advantage.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have talked to people from BMW North America a number of times and have attended events where they spoke to owners and I have been given cars for extended test drives.

BMW is very aware that their image is based to a large extent on driving dynamics and being the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That is the way their core market views the 3 Series and that is the market segment that built the brand. They also realize that the "Badge Whores" are a fickle market and although BMW is perfectly willing to take their money, they realize that this is not a market segment that you can build a brand on.

BMW needs to build a 3 Series that combines good driving dynamics with a level of refinement that makes the car a pleasant daily driver. I have not driven an F30 but in stock condition my 335i was not a pleasant daily driver due to the poorly sorted out sport suspension.

The idea that a good performing car needs to have a rock hard suspension is simply not true.

Whatever manufacturer can provide a car that combines performance with refinement will dominate the segment whether it is BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti,

CA
Captain, BJ thinks you are getting senile, you were not talking to BMW representatives, they were just the 2% low fat milk.

Why I say BJ is the perfect candidate to be shipped to North Korea, there, 98% will agree with him, as for the other 2%, he would just ask his great leader to make them stop, stop, stop breathing. It will work out perfectly for him.

The above post of his is a perfect example of how he tells you what you meant in your post. Don't you ever point out it was not what you or the BMW reps meant. You don't want to be the 2%.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Perception and prestige can change very rapidly.

CA
In some circumstances i would agree. But Cadillac has a certain stigma to their brand that i think it would take a few very successful car models to overcome.
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
In some circumstances i would agree. But Cadillac has a certain stigma to their brand that i think it would take a few very successful car models to overcome.
They have already done so with CTS. The initial sale of the XTS has also been good. ATS will also sell well, even if it is not as good as the new 3, as long as it is good on several fronts.

Some of our BMW drivers think the world evolves around them, not realizing there are plenty of people who have more money, and think Bimmer drivers are snobs.
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BJ remembers a fun tturedraider. Not this imposter who likes to sh-t on his new car.

This isn't satire. I'm genuinely offended by the demeanor of the E90 owners who have no business in the F30 forum other than to bash our cars. Is that not apparent to you, what you're doing and how it can be interpreted?

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you want the F30 to look like the E90 and handle like the E46. That's not happening, so is your point to go round in circles on this for the next 7 years until the next 3 Series is launched? If so, isn't the E90 forum the most appropriate place to do that?

BJ
That's OK, BJ. I'm genuinely offended by you lately. You know, I've actually read your posts over the past number of years, not glossed over them on the way to my next "pithy" post. If what you stated is what you've gotten from my posts regarding the F30 then you either are not reading them or you have some serious problems with reading comprehension. I've not said ONE SINGLE WORD about wanting the F30 to look like the E90 nor handle like the E46. In fact, I happen to think the objective reality is that the E90 handles better than the E46, so for you to have inferred that I believe the F30 should handle like the E46 is ludicrous.

The only criticism I've posted regarding the F30 was BMW's decision to use a four cylinder motor to meet their fuel economy goals rather than a smaller inline six that is turbo charged, which I believe they could have done with a little extra effort. I have also commented that the direct injection on the turbo four does indeed make it sound like a diesel, which is an indisputable fact. Of course, these are mechanically based posts which I realize probably caused your eyes to glaze over.
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Good post.

And my contention is that the F30 is exactly what you describe. Sporty, luxurious, fast, comfortable, and beautiful. The blend of everything one would want. We never could say that about any other 3 Series before. That's why the F30 is so special.

M-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Modern, Base. Sport+, Sport, Comfort, Eco. Adaptive, Sport, Standard.

Mix and match, it's the most customizable 3 ever, something for everyone. Push it 10% any which-way. Make it more luxurious, check. Make it more sporty, check. Push a button to drive to the mall. Push a button to race the curves. You will need to compromise on interior colors, but you can build the exact F30 you want to suit however you want to drive. That's ultimately it's biggest advantage.

BJ
I have never driven an F30 so I can't comment on how one drives but I do like the fact that it can be configured to be sporty, luxurious or whatever. The problem I had with the 335i was that it was that I did not like the handling without the sport package, although the ride was relatively comfortable in city and I liked the handling (on smooth surfaces) with the sport package but hated the harshness and crashiness on poor surfaces. I am in love with the adjustable suspension on the 750LIx. It literally gives you the best of both worlds.

As for styling, I have never been enthalled with the looks of BMWs (including the two that I own). I don't think they are bad looking, I just find them to be rather bland and run of the mill (innocuous?).

I will probably replace the fun car (the 335i) in a year or so. At this point (now that I finally have made it into the car i thought I bought in 2007) I am going to enjoy driving it for a while. I took it to Lime Rock this weekend and hopefully we will get some top down weather.

Whether I replace it with another BMW is not determined at this point. I intend to look at the 4 Series convertible and the M4 convertible but will also be looking at the new Jaguar F-Type, Porsche, Maserati and whatever else is available at the time.

CA
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
They have already done so with CTS. The initial sale of the XTS has also been good. ATS will also sell well, even if it is not as good as the new 3, as long as it is good on several fronts.

Some of our BMW drivers think the world evolves around them, not realizing there are plenty of people who have more money, and think Bimmer drivers are snobs.
You sound so cute when you get angry
dtc100 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
You sound so cute when you get angry
An example of snobbish behavior is one assumes too much. You have not said anything on topic for awhile now.
justinnum1 commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
An example of snobbish behavior is one assumes too much. You have not said anything on topic for awhile now.
Relax babe. I'm sure you will get plenty of more posts in tonight about how awful the F30 is.
lowonfuel commented:
September 28, 2012, 11:56 pm

My previous car was a CTS and it was one of the worst car I've ever owned. It had an unbelievable amount of problems. I was also told by a Cadillac employee the new touch screen system is still full of bugs they're trying to work out. GM always does what they have to do to look good on paper but in the real world they always under achieve. My new F30 N55 is light years ahead of my CTS
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowonfuel View Post
My previous car was a CTS and it was one of the worst car I've ever owned. It had an unbelievable amount of problems. I was also told by a Cadillac employee the new touch screen system is still full of bugs they're trying to work out. GM always does what they have to do to look good on paper but in the real world they always under achieve. My new F30 N55 is light years ahead of my CTS
Some posters here refuse to believe cadillac can put out a bad car.
captainaudio commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowonfuel View Post
My previous car was a CTS and it was one of the worst car I've ever owned. It had an unbelievable amount of problems. I was also told by a Cadillac employee the new touch screen system is still full of bugs they're trying to work out. GM always does what they have to do to look good on paper but in the real world they always under achieve. My new F30 N55 is light years ahead of my CTS
My 335i E93 has been extemely reliable (other than the RFT lousy suspension issue), rattle free, quiet, no HPFP issues or "Fluttering Noise". I realize that this is a sample of one and does not represent the overall relibilty of the model (which from what i have recently read is poor).
However if I had a car with a lot of issues, as you did, that would definetely sour me on the brand.

CA
captainaudio commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Some posters here refuse to believe cadillac can put out a bad car.
I think most of us here realize that Cadillac has put out some horrible cars.

CA
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think most of us here realize that Cadillac has put out some horrible cars.

CA
I agree, thats why i said some.

Slightly off topic, but i walked into an audi dealer today to check out the new S4, walked around for 5 min, wasn't approached by anyone and walked right out. They did have an R8 GT, damn that car is nice.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Some posters here refuse to believe cadillac can put out a bad car.


Blasphemy.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My 335i E93 has been extemely reliable (other than the RFT lousy suspension issue), rattle free, quiet, no HPFP issues or "Fluttering Noise". I realize that this is a sample of one and does not represent the overall relibilty of the model (which from what i have recently read is poor).
However if I had a car with a lot of issues, as you did, that would definetely sour me on the brand.

CA
Where have you read that?
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Relax babe. I'm sure you will get plenty of more posts in tonight about how awful the F30 is.
Thank you for being a loyal follower during the day, now its your bedtime, go check in with BJ.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Thank you for being a loyal follower during the day, now its your bedtime, go check in with BJ.
Unfortunately i have to see your nonsense. I'd put you on ignore but i would still have to see your posts when people quote you Stupid bug in the vBulletin software.

Then again i probably would be trolling the F30 forums too with nonsense if i recently purchased a E90 328i right before it was updated.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Where have you read that?
What has been reported from DJ Power was Cadillac is near the top of the satisfaction list in the luxury segment in the US, above BMW. Although I believe it was more recent survey, don't know their ranking in the years past.

One theory about BMW's poor initial satisfaction rating was the free maintenance service. People might complain more when they bring cars in for free services, and do not get what they think they should get. If true, there is no fear, Cadillac has free service for ATS
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Unfortunately i have to see your nonsense. I'd put you on ignore but i would still have to see your posts when people quote you Stupid bug in the vBulletin software.
You can always not to open this thread, did you realize that? I fear both you and BJ are getting there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Then again i probably would be trolling the F30 forums too with nonsense if i recently purchased a E90 328i right before it was updated.
You have not been providing anything meaningful at all, other than playing a few other posters' lap dog.
captainaudio commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Where have you read that?
Don't remember and could not find it in a Google search. It was fairly recently and I was a bit taken aback to read that a car that I owned had a poor reliability rating. I basically laughed it off since mine has not had any issues,


CA

Edit:

Found the link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html

The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Don't remember and could not find it in a Google search. It was fairly recently and I was a bit taken aback to read that a car that I owned had a poor reliability rating. I basically laughed it off since mine has not had any issues,

CA
My 2 E90 N54's never had any issues other than a blown speaker a few times but that was because i listened to the music to loud.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Don't remember and could not find it in a Google search. It was fairly recently and I was a bit taken aback to read that a car that I owned had a poor reliability rating. I basically laughed it off since mine has not had any issues,


CA

Edit:

Found the link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html

The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
That is one damn good looking E93 though.

Below is the most recent J D Power survey charts:

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-csi-study.htm

Looks to me ATS will have the potential to pull Cadillac back with the CUE experience Some thing or two they should have learned from Ford.
tturedraider commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Don't remember and could not find it in a Google search. It was fairly recently and I was a bit taken aback to read that a car that I owned had a poor reliability rating. I basically laughed it off since mine has not had any issues,


CA

Edit:

Found the link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-repairs.html

The fact that they refer to the E93 as a "Soft Top" does not add to their credibility.
Yeah, we had some discussion about that in the poor man's, lowly E9x forum. The general consensus was that it was a load of hooey.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Yeah, we had some discussion about that in the poor man's, lowly E9x forum. The general consensus was that it was a load of hooey.
There were quite a few complaints of the leaky convertibles, in fact I recall at least two were lemoned due to the leaks.
Michael Schott commented:
September 29, 2012, 7:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowonfuel View Post
My previous car was a CTS and it was one of the worst car I've ever owned. It had an unbelievable amount of problems. I was also told by a Cadillac employee the new touch screen system is still full of bugs they're trying to work out. GM always does what they have to do to look good on paper but in the real world they always under achieve. My new F30 N55 is light years ahead of my CTS
I owned a 2006 CTS that other than an alignment issue (dealer problem) ran flawlessly. Great engine and tranny. The more recent models have much better interiors. Despite the childish comments on this forum Cadillac is making the best cars in their history. Keep in mind that 4 years ago GM was nearly out of business and had very limited r and d funding.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 9:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I owned a 2006 CTS that other than an alignment issue (dealer problem) ran flawlessly. Great engine and tranny. The more recent models have much better interiors. Despite the childish comments on this forum Cadillac is making the best cars in their history. Keep in mind that 4 years ago GM was nearly out of business and had very limited r and d funding.
Unfortunately though, this segment is so competitive, making the best car in Caddy's history is not enough, if the best Caddy in the history lags behind other brands.

On the other hand, the new 3 is clearly more refined and consistent in its drivetrain delivery. I think that alone will appeal to a larger audience in this segment, with the caveat that someone who ranks drivetrain refinement at the top of the list, have many brands to choose from. And if driving dynamics or fun factor is your priority, the field narrows significantly.

The initial reviews seem to suggest that BMW is trying to go after that larger audience, Caddy is trying to capture the more enthusiast oriented group. Whether they succeed or not is yet to come.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

Caddy is trying to capture the more enthusiast oriented group. Whether they succeed or not is yet to come.


BJ
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 29, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
NO.

I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.



I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.

But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.



You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
Let me just say that the E36 M3 sedan is my favorite BMW of all times and it is certainly a lot more capable at the track then the E90 328 or the F30 328. However, if you look at the numbers it is nearly identical to the E90 128 and falls behind the N20. I know dynos vary due to many factors but most stock E36 M3's pull about 210hp 205 trq vs the N52's 200hp 190 trq and N20's 230 hp and 250 trq. Again these will vary depending on the vehicle and dyno type. These numbers are also reflected in the acceleration results:

6 speed 2009 328i
Curb weight: 3352
0-60 5.9 secs
0-100 16.1 secs
0-120 24.9 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

6 speed 2008 128i
Curb weight 3197
0-60 5.8 secs
0-100 15.7 secs
0-130 mph 31.4 secs
1/4 mile 14.5 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

6 speed F30 328i
Curb weight 3434
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.3 secs
0-130 26.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

5 speed E36 M3 Coupe
Curb weight 3230
0-60 6.0 secs
0-100 16.0 secs
0-130 33.2 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 95 mph
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...vs.-9-3-Viggen)

The 128 and 328 are nearly identical with the E36 M3. Look how much faster the F30 is, specifically the 1/4 mile trap speed which is a good indication of power.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 29, 2012, 11:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Let me just say that the E36 M3 sedan is my favorite BMW of all times and it is certainly a lot more capable at the track then the E90 328 or the F30 328. However, if you look at the numbers it is nearly identical to the E90 128 and falls behind the N20. I know dynos vary due to many factors but most stock E36 M3's pull about 210hp 205 trq vs the N52's 200hp 190 trq and N20's 230 hp and 250 trq. Again these will vary depending on the vehicle and dyno type. These numbers are also reflected in the acceleration results:

6 speed 2009 328i
Curb weight: 3352
0-60 5.9 secs
0-100 16.1 secs
0-120 24.9 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

6 speed 2008 128i
Curb weight 3197
0-60 5.8 secs
0-100 15.7 secs
0-130 mph 31.4 secs
1/4 mile 14.5 @ 96 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

6 speed F30 328i
Curb weight 3434
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.3 secs
0-130 26.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

5 speed E36 M3 Coupe
Curb weight 3230
0-60 6.0 secs
0-100 16.0 secs
0-130 33.2 secs
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 95 mph
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...vs.-9-3-Viggen)

The 128 and 328 are nearly identical with the E36 M3. Look how much faster the F30 is, specifically the 1/4 mile trap speed which is a good indication of power.
I am fine with what you posted except a more typical time for a 5mt e36 is 14.0 at 99. My car for example even breaks into the 13's stock bitt thats a but unfair. I see plenty of 13 second M3s with little effort. That article is often used as reference by Saab people comparing the Viggen to the E36 because it's pretty much the slowest time found for an E36 lol.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:19 pm

For better sound and performance, I will consider the N20 when the BMW performance exhaust is available installed at the port of entry, and will order DHP. I have pretty much ruled out the ATS 2.0T since I don't see options available to improve the sound. Not going aftermarket route.

That leaves me with only the ATS 3.6L as a contender for "sound proof". Will want LSD option on the ATS too. And of course at that point the 335i will be in the contention, so is the S4.

For now personally there are really no other viable alternatives I can think of. I may still test drive a G37S simply because of its fantastic lease deals, but unless it really impresses me in the driving dynamics and fun department, it will not be a serious option.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am fine with what you posted except a more typical time for a 5mt e36 is 14.0 at 99. My car for example even breaks into the 13's stock bitt thats a but unfair. I see plenty of 13 second M3s with little effort. That article is often used as reference by Saab people comparing the Viggen to the E36 because it's pretty much the slowest time found for an E36 lol.
Fair enough. This is by far the fastest time posted for the E36 M3 I have ever seen:

1994 BMW M3 Coupe 5 speed manual
Curb weight 3180
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.9 secs
0-120 23.5 secs
0-130 29.8 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 98 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

2008 128i
Curb weight 3228
0-60 5.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.4 @ 96.1 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...st_test/?ti=v2

Few years back I used to attend domestic v import events at the local track. I witnessed plenty of E36 M3's running high 14 second to mid 15 seconds 1/4 mile times. Two of my friends owned E36 M3s both with modifications and both running mid 14 second times. Again I am not saying it is not capable of running 13 secs at 1/4 mile with some mods and I am not trying to take anything away from the E36 M3 because it is one of the best sedans ever made. However, I find it a little funny how most people say the N52 is slow when it pretty much matches the E36 M3's acceleration times. On the side note, I am thinking about picking up a E36 M3 as a track toy and keeping the E90 as my daily.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 29, 2012, 12:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
For better sound and performance, I will consider the N20 when the BMW performance exhaust is available installed at the port of entry, and will order DHP. I have pretty much ruled out the ATS 2.0T since I don't see options available to improve the sound. Not going aftermarket route.

That leaves me with only the ATS 3.6L as a contender for "sound proof". Will want LSD option on the ATS too. And of course at that point the 335i will be in the contention, so is the S4.

For now personally there are really no other viable alternatives I can think of. I may still test drive a G37S simply because of its fantastic lease deals, but unless it really impresses me in the driving dynamics and fun department, it will not be a serious option.
Throw a AA tune, PE and Eurobox on your E90 and never look back.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Fair enough. This is by far the fastest time posted for the E36 M3 I have ever seen:

1994 BMW M3 Coupe 5 speed manual
Curb weight 3180
0-60 5.6 secs
0-100 14.9 secs
0-120 23.5 secs
0-130 29.8 secs
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 98 mph
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

2008 128i
Curb weight 3228
0-60 5.7 secs
1/4 mile 14.4 @ 96.1 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...st_test/?ti=v2

Few years back I used to attend domestic v import events at the local track. I witnessed plenty of E36 M3's running high 14 second to mid 15 seconds 1/4 mile times. Two of my friends owned E36 M3s both with modifications and both running mid 14 second times. Again I am not saying it is not capable of running 13 secs at 1/4 mile with some mods and I am not trying to take anything away from the E36 M3 because it is one of the best sedans ever made. However, I find it a little funny how most people say the N52 is slow when it pretty much matches the E36 M3's acceleration times. On the side note, I am thinking about picking up a E36 M3 as a track toy and keeping the E90 as my daily.

I guess I am just more engrossed as this is the generation of car I live with.

I have spent years doing NA bolt ons on the S52 and kept a close eye on all the times ran by S52 cars as well as dyno'ing.

In my section of the forums we have had a guy with a stock M Coupe with only 3.73 gears running 13.2 at 102.x mph. That may be partly due to the wider tires the M Coupe/Roadster allows. Even before the gears, he was still a 13.8 at 100. At the same time, more average drivers struggled to crack 13's. It was widely known, this person can DRIVE.

I also find it the norm for basic bolt on E36 M3's to be in the 13's. Not to be rude, but your experiences indicate from my years of dealing with these cars as either higher altitude, poorly driven, or not well chosen modifications-state of tune etc.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I guess I am just more engrossed as this is the generation of car I live with.

I have spent years doing NA bolt ons on the S52 and kept a close eye on all the times ran by S52 cars as well as dyno'ing.

In my section of the forums we have had a guy with a stock M Coupe with only 3.73 gears running 13.2 at 102.x mph. That may be partly due to the wider tires the M Coupe/Roadster allows. Even before the gears, he was still a 13.8 at 100. At the same time, more average drivers struggled to crack 13's. It was widely known, this person can DRIVE.

I also find it the norm for basic bolt on E36 M3's to be in the 13's. Not to be rude, but your experiences indicate from my years of dealing with these cars as either higher altitude, poorly driven, or not well chosen modifications-state of tune etc.
Like I said I am not trying to take anything away from it and I am just speaking from what I witnessed over the years. The second review I posted is also the quickest I have ever seen in a major publication. I have never seen a stock or close to stock E36 M3 break 13's. Most of them posted mid 14 second runs. I am not saying it is not possible but I attended 1/4 mile racing events very frequently, mostly on import nights. Here are the numbers as per BMW of North America:

Unladen Weight: Coupe 3175 Sedan 3175/3241 auto
0-60 mph: Coupe 5.7 Sedan 5.7 /6.4 auto
1/4 mile: Coupe 14.3 Sedan 14.3/14.9 auto
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Unfortunately i have to see your nonsense. I'd put you on ignore but i would still have to see your posts when people quote you Stupid bug in the vBulletin software.

Then again i probably would be trolling the F30 forums too with nonsense if i recently purchased a E90 328i right before it was updated.
...and unfortunately he's got another 2 years on the lease to inform us of his "candidates" to replace his E90, like we care if he buys a Mitsubishi or a Cadillac.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 1:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have never driven an F30 so I can't comment on how one drives but I do like the fact that it can be configured to be sporty, luxurious or whatever. The problem I had with the 335i was that it was that I did not like the handling without the sport package, although the ride was relatively comfortable in city and I liked the handling (on smooth surfaces) with the sport package but hated the harshness and crashiness on poor surfaces. I am in love with the adjustable suspension on the 750LIx. It literally gives you the best of both worlds.

As for styling, I have never been enthalled with the looks of BMWs (including the two that I own). I don't think they are bad looking, I just find them to be rather bland and run of the mill (innocuous?).

CA
The takeaway that needs to be hammered home is this:

The target customer for BMW is a status-seeking luxury car buyer in his 40's, not some performance-enthusiast sportsman in his 30's. The key to BMW's success has been making yuppie luxury cars with the perception of sports enthusiasm. They're trying to attract me, someone whose really in it for the badge but wants to be viewed like he's driving a sportscar-in-sheep's-clothing, makes me look cool, not like some stodgy dad in a Lexus.

Point being that enthusiasts are collateral damage, just a happy accident to BMW's overall marketing strategy. They sell so few Sport models and M-Sport models that it's not significant enough to move the needle. But without their perception of "sporty performance" they lose me as I don't want to be seen in a car like that. If I were only in it for the badge, I'd go Mercedes E Class. Because of their sports enthusiast marking, I am just as well perceived (if not better) in a BMW 3.

So if the F30 is getting bigger and longer and wider with a proudly marketed "luxury" line and a default "comfort" mode it sucks for the performance enthusiasts but it's not some "mistake" on BMW's part. They know exactly what they're doing. Cadillac, along with every other brand that's tried and failed, can't succeed because they're not perceived to be a "sporty" brand. We have you enthusiasts to thank for that protection. The ATS's ad campaign, TV commercials, it's all about some 30-something's racing around twisty highways in Europe. It's all an attempt to "BMW-ize" their brand. Going to take decades and at least one fabulous car to do that.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 29, 2012, 2:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Like I said I am not trying to take anything away from it and I am just speaking from what I witnessed over the years. The second review I posted is also the quickest I have ever seen in a major publication. I have never seen a stock or close to stock E36 M3 break 13's. Most of them posted mid 14 second runs. I am not saying it is not possible but I attended 1/4 mile racing events very frequently, mostly on import nights. Here are the numbers as per BMW of North America:

Unladen Weight: Coupe 3175 Sedan 3175/3241 auto
0-60 mph: Coupe 5.7 Sedan 5.7 /6.4 auto
1/4 mile: Coupe 14.3 Sedan 14.3/14.9 auto
Again, agreed. I have not seen 13 second stock e36s either.

But mid 14 second ones are simply not being driven to potential. Same goes for bolt on cars. Not in the 13's.
Tomjh commented:
September 29, 2012, 2:29 pm

I was shopping my car around the olimpics when an ad for the ATS came on . I usually fast forward past them but I watched it . My wife who drives a Lexus and does not care much about cars looked up and said You are not thinking about buying a Caddy are you. That is still the perception they will have to over come. The transmission problem will also apply to the automatic as it will be a 6 speed Vs the eight for the f30. Which will also effect gas mileage. The Caddy was also designed to be somewhat bland to sell better in China, they seem to like the understated.
Caddy is thinking long term and it is good for BMW to have some competion as my only complaint with my car was they charge too must for certain options . Also I don't tink the residual are not going to be to good on the Caddy for a while at best.
tturedraider commented:
September 29, 2012, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The takeaway that needs to be hammered home is this:

The target customer for BMW is a status-seeking luxury car buyer in his 40's, not some performance-enthusiast sportsman in his 30's. The key to BMW's success has been making yuppie luxury cars with the perception of sports enthusiasm. They're trying to attract me, someone whose really in it for the badge but wants to be viewed like he's driving a sportscar-in-sheep's-clothing, makes me look cool, not like some stodgy dad in a Lexus.

Point being that enthusiasts are collateral damage, just a happy accident to BMW's overall marketing strategy. They sell so few Sport models and M-Sport models that it's not significant enough to move the needle. But without their perception of "sporty performance" they lose me as I don't want to be seen in a car like that. If I were only in it for the badge, I'd go Mercedes E Class. Because of their sports enthusiast marking, I am just as well perceived (if not better) in a BMW 3.

So if the F30 is getting bigger and longer and wider with a proudly marketed "luxury" line and a default "comfort" mode it sucks for the performance enthusiasts but it's not some "mistake" on BMW's part. They know exactly what they're doing. Cadillac, along with every other brand that's tried and failed, can't succeed because they're not perceived to be a "sporty" brand. We have you enthusiasts to thank for that protection. The ATS's ad campaign, TV commercials, it's all about some 30-something's racing around twisty highways in Europe. It's all an attempt to "BMW-ize" their brand. Going to take decades and at least one fabulous car to do that.

BJ
You have NO IDEA what BMW's success is built on. You didn't know what BMW was until July 2007. I and many others here have been keen observers of BMW's growth and success since before you got your first Big Wheel. Stick to what you know. Otherwise keep your self-aggrandizing trap shut. You have now moved to the point where you are nothing more than a disraction and have nothing useful to contribute to the legitimate discussion on Bimmerfest.
windsor027 commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You have NO IDEA what BMW's success is built on. You didn't know what BMW was until July 2007. I and many others here have been keen observers of BMW's growth and success since before you got your first Big Wheel. Stick to what you know. Otherwise keep your self-aggrandizing trap shut. You have now moved to the point where you are nothing more than a disraction and have nothing useful to contribute to the legitimate discussion on Bimmerfest.
Well that is not very polite. BJ and I have had our differences but I also find him humorous and intuitive. There is something called the "ignore" button you know.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You have NO IDEA what BMW's success is built on. You didn't know what BMW was until July 2007. I and many others here have been keen observers of BMW's growth and success since before you got your first Big Wheel. Stick to what you know. Otherwise keep your self-aggrandizing trap shut. You have now moved to the point where you are nothing more than a disraction and have nothing useful to contribute to the legitimate discussion on Bimmerfest.
I learned to drive in my father's 1980 7 Series, spent hundreds of hours behind the wheel of my mother's 1990 3 Series.

Since you bought your 2006 Beige 330, I'm in my third 3 Series having owned a 2007 E93, a 2009 E90, and a 2013 F30.

I'm an F30 owner. This is the F30 forum. You can take your old-school BMW beliefs that are contradictory to BMW's current marketing strategy back to the E90 forum in which you belong. If you intend to stay here, I suggest you listen to what's changed in the 7 years since you last purchased a BMW product as you clearly have a lot to learn.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Well that is not very polite. BJ and I have had our differences but I also find him humorous and intuitive. There is something called the "ignore" button you know.
Thanks Windsor.

While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Thanks Windsor.

While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.

BJ
Previous model owners trying to downplay the new model is nothing new. Why they need to waste their time in the F30 forum is beyond me. Certain posters here must feel like it's their job to talk **** about the F30 and point out every thing they think is wrong with it.

The other forum doesn't have anywhere near the troll issue this one does.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Again, agreed. I have not seen 13 second stock e36s either.

But mid 14 second ones are simply not being driven to potential. Same goes for bolt on cars. Not in the 13's.
We are on the same page then. I was just trying to stick up for the N52 a little bit.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 29, 2012, 3:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
We are on the same page then. I was just trying to stick up for the N52 a little bit.
That is fine.

I like the way it sounds.

But I also never leave anything stock.

I have liked how the S52 responds to bolt ons(I showed a 15whp gain from a $60 M50 manifold swap) and the N20 will be even better.

I think the N52 is decent stock when compared to the S52 as you mentioned are similar on paper. But I also find it more complicated and harder to get HP out of unless going the FI route. The S52, largely due to age and simplicity means more bolt ons and more simple ways of extracting power(such as the M50 manifold I gave).

I have just become spoiled in regards to bang for the buck. I did my FI project on the cheap, even the tune was second hand. I showed a 150whp gain on the dyno(on the second hand tune, more tweaking needed) with $2-2300 in second hand parts. Much more left on the table, only the head gasket is holding me back. I love that the S52 offers that and I LOVE the sound.

If I had similar years invested in the N52, which might be the S52 all over again in 5-10 years, I would wax on about it too.
windsor027 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Thanks Windsor.

While I spend some time being humorous with the rest of the guys here, occasionally we get serious. Sometimes people can't understand the difference, not sure what these E90 diehards get out of being here anyway. They seem to be down on our F30's, angry at BMW for making the car bigger, not sure why it's so important for them to try to make us miserable when we're actually very happy.

BJ
Personally BJ I find it very amusing, especially the part where people read a few auto magazine articles and without driving and or buying the car they are experts in what it can and can't do. They are very entertaining fellows actually, misguided but entertaining.

One more week my friend and I will get to enjoy what you have been enjoying for a few weeks now. A brand new F30.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Personally BJ I find it very amusing, especially the part where people read a few auto magazine articles and without driving and or buying the car they are experts in what it can and can't do. They are very entertaining fellows actually, misguided but entertaining.

One more week my friend and I will get to enjoy what you have been enjoying for a few weeks now. A brand new F30.
I'm excited for you. Just in time for the leaves to change. Fall is a great time for a new ride.

Can you post up your build sheet? Forgot the options you put on the car.

BJ
windsor027 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm excited for you. Just in time for the leaves to change. Fall is a great time for a new ride.

Can you post up your build sheet? Forgot the options you put on the car.

BJ
Sure I will on Monday, I have it on my work computer.

This is what I got.

Alpine White
Sportline
6-MT
Dynamic handling package
NAV
Front Heated seats
HK
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You have NO IDEA what BMW's success is built on. You didn't know what BMW was until July 2007. I and many others here have been keen observers of BMW's growth and success since before you got your first Big Wheel. Stick to what you know. Otherwise keep your self-aggrandizing trap shut. You have now moved to the point where you are nothing more than a disraction and have nothing useful to contribute to the legitimate discussion on Bimmerfest.
Some of them are hell bent to eliminate any legit discussion of competitions in this forum. They will act like idiots so you get offended and play into their game. At some point they hope to legitimately ask you to be banned.

Don't fall for it.

Unfortunately you have to weed through the noise if you want to have some good comparisons here, this is just the nature of this forum.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:29 pm

Hey Jon, if your reading this you should add a "trolls only" section to the F30 forum.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Hey Jon, if your reading this you should add a "trolls only" section to the F30 forum.
Here is a good example of someone who had never added anything of substance in this thread, yet like his master, can't stop asking the moderators to enforce sanctions on others who they do not agree.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 4:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Here is a good example of someone who had never added anything of substance in this thread, yet like his master, can't stop asking the moderators to enforce sanctions on others who they do not agree.
Funny you quote me and consider yourself a troll.
tturedraider commented:
September 29, 2012, 5:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Well that is not very polite. BJ and I have had our differences but I also find him humorous and intuitive. There is something called the "ignore" button you know.
I have come to the defense of BJ's brand of satire and humor probably more than just about any other Bimmerfester over the years. But, what he's been doing is trying to create a new reality about where BMW has been and where they are now. One of the main characteristics of Bimmerfest that draws people here is the reasoned, balanced discussion we have about BMW. BJ has pissed off people many times over the years by hijacking threads with his satirical banter. But, there's a difference between that and trying to redefine reality and stifle other's opinions. I'm not a fan of dct100's point of view, and I've commented on that way more than I've ever commented on BJ's posts, and justinnum1 makes a good point, every time there is a model change there are naysayers who say BMW is going to hell in a handbasket. There is still no shortage of E46 fans who think the E9x marked the beginning of the end for BMW. If that's too much for BJ to handle then he needs to take a break from Bimmerfest for a couple of years rather try to create his own reality.

I am also personally offended at having my positions misrepresented by BJ. Clearly he either hasn't actually read the things I've posted over the past seven years or he hasn't comprehended them or he is willfully choosing to misrepresent them. I have no problem standing on the helpful contribution I have made to Bimmerfest over the past seven years. It is not uncommon for me to get a PM asking for my input.

I'm all about having fun on Bimmerfest and I have a lot of it. But willfully posting misinformation to advance one's own agenda or stifle opposing opinions is not my idea of fun.
beden1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I agree, thats why i said some.

Slightly off topic, but i walked into an audi dealer today to check out the new S4, walked around for 5 min, wasn't approached by anyone and walked right out. They did have an R8 GT, damn that car is nice.
I guess they have experienced sales people working there who can spot a tire kicker as soon as they enter their parking lot.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I guess they have experienced sales people working there who can spot a tire kicker as soon as they entire their parking lot.
Maybe, i am getting fed up with my dealer and how long its taking my car to get here. I am about to get 7K cash back from my dealer. Audi would have had an easy sale if they let me drive the car and i liked it, not to mention my family has purchased porsches from the same dealer. Everything happens for a reason tho and im glad to report my car is now on a boat

Probably saw my F30 and figured i just got a car, but what they didnt know is its about to be returned and the dealer is giving me a bunch of cash. It's all good, i will just never recommend that dealer to anyone.

And work on your spelling
beden1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Maybe, i am getting fed up with my dealer and how long its taking my car to get here. I am about to get 7K cash back from my dealer. Audi would have had an easy sale if they let me drive the car and i liked it, not to mention my family has purchased porsches from the same dealer. Everything happens for a reason tho and im glad to report my car is now on a boat

Probably saw my F30 and figured i just got a car, but what they didnt know is its about to be returned and the dealer is giving me a bunch of cash. It's all good, i will just never recommend that dealer to anyone.

And work on your spelling
Corrected, and thanks for pointing out my mistake, rare as it may be.

If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.

I normally call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are usually ready for me when I arrive.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 5:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Corrected, and thanks for pointing out my mistake, rare as it may be.

If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.

I usually call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are typically ready for me when I arrive.
I was on my way home from work. I was the only guy in the dealership lol. I expected at the very least to have been asked if i needed any help. One of the first times i have been in a dealership with 10 sales guys doing nothing and not one thought it would be a good idea to ask the customer if they needed any assistance. Pretty much told me everything i needed to know about that dealer.

On another side not, i was talking with race car driver Bill Adam the other day. Real nice guy and he happens to drive for Champion Racing(i was at Champion Audi, the one in coral springs, i have gotten porsches from them before at copans). He drives an R8 for them, pretty storied racing history and he is in the canadian racing HOF.
beden1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 6:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I was on my way home from work. I was the only guy in the dealership lol. I expected at the very least to have been asked if i needed any help. One of the first times i have been in a dealership with 10 sales guys doing nothing and not one thought it would be a good idea to ask the customer if they needed any assistance. Pretty much told me everything i needed to know about that dealer.

On another side not, i was talking with race car driver Bill Adam the other day. Real nice guy and he happens to drive for Champion Racing(i was at Champion Audi, the one in coral springs, i have gotten porsches from them before at copans). He drives an R8 for them, pretty storied racing history and he is in the canadian racing HOF.
I bought a super clean used '04 MB S600 with 4,800 miles on it from Champion Porsche in '05 for a great deal. I've also been to the Champion Audi dealership in Coral Springs a number of times. My last time there, they had just placed an R8 cabriolet on the floor loaded with all options. It was super sweet.

I found both dealerships to be very friendly and helpful.

If you owned Porsches before, why are you driving a 328i?
GVFlyer commented:
September 29, 2012, 6:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Corrected, and thanks for pointing out my mistake, rare as it may be.

If you were serious about an S4, you could have always found a sales person to assist you.

I normally call the dealer in advance to let them know what car(s) I have an interest in driving, and they are usually ready for me when I arrive.
You or your EA? You sound like someone with a very full calendar.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 6:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I bought a super clean used '04 MB S600 with 4,800 miles on it from Champion Porsche in '05 for a great deal. I've also been to the Champion Audi dealership in Coral Springs a number of times. My last time there, they had just placed an R8 cabriolet on the floor loaded with all options. It was super sweet.

I found both dealerships to be very friendly and helpful.

If you owned Porsches before, why are you driving a 328i?
Why not? It's a great car. And i have been doing a ton of highway driving latley and enjoy getting close to 40mpg

I am looking to pick up a boxster probably 2014 year, love the new body style but not willing to be a early model owner of a porsche again. Had a few issues with a 996.

Picking up my 335msport in a few weeks, very excited.
windsor027 commented:
September 29, 2012, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I have come to the defense of BJ's brand of satire and humor probably more than just about any other Bimmerfester over the years. But, what he's been doing is trying to create a new reality about where BMW has been and where they are now. One of the main characteristics of Bimmerfest that draws people here is the reasoned, balanced discussion we have about BMW. BJ has pissed off people many times over the years by hijacking threads with his satirical banter. But, there's a difference between that and trying to redefine reality and stifle other's opinions. I'm not a fan of dct100's point of view, and I've commented on that way more than I've ever commented on BJ's posts, and justinnum1 makes a good point, every time there is a model change there are naysayers who say BMW is going to hell in a handbasket. There is still no shortage of E46 fans who think the E9x marked the beginning of the end for BMW. If that's too much for BJ to handle then he needs to take a break from Bimmerfest for a couple of years rather try to create his own reality.

I am also personally offended at having my positions misrepresented by BJ. Clearly he either hasn't actually read the things I've posted over the past seven years or he hasn't comprehended them or he is willfully choosing to misrepresent them. I have no problem standing on the helpful contribution I have made to Bimmerfest over the past seven years. It is not uncommon for me to get a PM asking for my input.

I'm all about having fun on Bimmerfest and I have a lot of it. But willfully posting misinformation to advance one's own agenda or stifle opposing opinions is not my idea of fun.
I respect what you said and lets face it we have all been guilt of misinformation one time or another. However there are certain characters who, without having any vested interest in an F30, somehow they want to come across as experts because they may have taken a test drive around a neighborhood and/or read a few reviews.

The ultimate purpose of these boards is to share information about your car..you know the one that you own or have extensively tested and put hard earned cash down, or the one that you tested and decided your money is better spend somewhere else. Not to belittle or praise rides you don't even own or test but you heard some journalist say this and that. To that notion I will let BJ defend his posts but this guy just acquired a 45K so I can understand his enthusiasm.
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 8:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
. I'm not a fan of dct100's point of view, and I've commented on that way more than I've ever commented on BJ's posts,
You came across as if you were shocked BJ tried to redefine your own point of view

Anyway, I happened to drive by one of our local Caddy dealers. The only 3.6L ATS with performance trim they had was an all wheel drive. So I drove it.

First let me agree with you the steering was very light, precise but light. Although it tightened up as the car picked up speed. Initially I was very unhappy about it, but then I started revving the V6. The thing sounded so labored and strained above 4k I quickly forgot about the light steering.

Although I knew no 4 cylinders or V6s could rival I6's smooth revving nature, the 3.6 simply gave me the impression that it wanted me to shift gears at 3k and be done with. The little tachometer tugged at the left corner seemed to underscore that notion.

But then magic happened. As I went on a twisty road with no traffic, I told the sales guy hold on I was going to push this thing hard in sport and manual mode. All was forgotten. The entire chassis was transformed into a unified piece of attack machine, it shot through the bends and corners like a bullet train on the rail.

Never have I had experienced the same in any of the cars in this segment. The F30 335i sport I drove during the BMW Olympic Team Drive event took the same route, I liked it over the A4 and C class, but this ATS was just refreshingly different.

Once we got back to the local traffic, I was again reminded of the light steering and labored rev.

So the 3.6 has no lack of power to attack the corner or straight, just as long as you can overcome the less than refined V6 above the mid range, you will be rewarded of a new experience. In the street, you put it in standard touring mode, it never revs high so you don't have to think above the strained high rev.

But because the exhaust sounded so sweet I kept stepping on it to hear it, if I went a little overboard, would again be reminded of the unrefined high revving.

As for the light steering, it was also forgotten as soon as you put it in the attack mode. I am afraid the only way to retain the kind of steering connection to the road surface, through the rack and tires, is to keep your 3 with the hydraulic system. No EPS system will save us on this one, at least not likely in this segment.

The car interior was otherwise very well stitched together. If you are not in the habit to push it, it will be a very plush and quiet ride, just as long as you do not put it in sport mode, because the suspension will be hard. This car did not have MRC, only the sport suspension.

I didn't really care about trying or looking at anything else about the car. My initial impression is, if I wanted to take my car out on a twisty just to have some fun, I definitely want to be in this ATS 3.6, but the rest of the way, I will have to choose between hearing the nice exhaust, and reminded of its less refined engine.

It will be a tough decision.
beden1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 8:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
You or your EA? You sound like someone with a very full calendar.
Is there a problem with calling the dealer before so you don't waste your time waiting for them to have the cars ready for test drives?
GVFlyer commented:
September 29, 2012, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Is there a problem with calling the dealer before so you don't waste your time waiting for them to have the cars ready for test drives?
I wasn't being critical, just making an observation that was apparently incorrect. I work with people that would probably have their executive assistant make that call then put the appointment on their calendar.
Michael Schott commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You came across as if you were shocked BJ tried to redefine your own point of view

Anyway, I happened to drive by one of our local Caddy dealers. The only 3.6L ATS with performance trim they had was an all wheel drive. So I drove it.

First let me agree with you the steering was very light, precise but light. Although it tightened up as the car picked up speed. Initially I was very unhappy about it, but then I started revving the V6. The thing sounded so labored and strained above 4k I quickly forgot about the light steering.

Although I knew no 4 cylinders or V6s could rival I6's smooth revving nature, the 3.6 simply gave me the impression that it wanted me to shift gears at 3k and be done with. The little tachometer tugged at the left corner seemed to underscore that notion.

But then magic happened. As I went on a twisty road with no traffic, I told the sales guy hold on I was going to push this thing hard in sport and manual mode. All was forgotten. The entire chassis was transformed into a unified piece of attack machine, it shot through the bends and corners like a bullet train on the rail.

Never have I had experienced the same in any of the cars in this segment. The F30 335i sport I drove during the BMW Olympic Team Drive event took the same route, I liked it over the A4 and C class, but this ATS was just refreshingly different.

Once we got back to the local traffic, I was again reminded of the light steering and labored rev.

So the 3.6 has no lack of power to attack the corner or straight, just as long as you can overcome the less than refined V6 above the mid range, you will be rewarded of a new experience. In the street, you put it in standard touring mode, it never revs high so you don't have to think above the strained high rev.

But because the exhaust sounded so sweet I kept stepping on it to hear it, if I went a little overboard, would again be reminded of the unrefined high revving.

As for the light steering, it was also forgotten as soon as you put it in the attack mode. I am afraid the only way to retain the kind of steering connection to the road surface, through the rack and tires, is to keep your 3 with the hydraulic system. No EPS system will save us on this one, at least not likely in this segment.

The car interior was otherwise very well stitched together. If you are not in the habit to push it, it will be a very plush and quiet ride, just as long as you do not put it in sport mode, because the suspension will be hard. This car did not have MRC, only the sport suspension.

I didn't really care about trying or looking at anything else about the car. My initial impression is, if I wanted to take my car out on a twisty just to have some fun, I definitely want to be in this ATS 3.6, but the rest of the way, I will have to choose between hearing the nice exhaust, and reminded of its less refined engine.

It will be a tough decision.
We all have our own thoughts and opinions but in my experience and it's more than a short test drive (3 years of ownership) the Caddy V6 is a peach of an engine. No it may not shoot to the redline but it makes great power and is smooth. It of course will have a different character than an I6. I'm also not sure it's fair to assess an engine that is not broken in.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Sure I will on Monday, I have it on my work computer.

This is what I got.

Alpine White
Sportline
6-MT
Dynamic handling package
NAV
Front Heated seats
HK
Sweet. Which color interior?

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
We all have our own thoughts and opinions but in my experience and it's more than a short test drive (3 years of ownership) the Caddy V6 is a peach of an engine. No it may not shoot to the redline but it makes great power and is smooth. It of course will have a different character than an I6. I'm also not sure it's fair to assess an engine that is not broken in.
Unfortunatly the ATS will be judged by many during the initial test drives. I now understand why the C&D guy said the 2.0T was rough above 5k RPM. I don't think the more pronounced vibration of the V6 above 4k RPM will correct itself after the break in period. But then again I am not familiar with GM V6s.

Of course it is tough comparing to the BMW I6 in smooth revving department. But if someone has been driving a Camaro or Mustang, he will probably have a different view of the ATS V6 than mine.

I went prepared to rev that V6, after all I liked the fact it was an N/A engine and the power was at the higher RPM band. As I said, in racing mode, you don't think about the coarse engine sound at redline, to the contrary the sound and vibration stimulate you as you push the car to the limit.

But this is a luxury sport sedan, most people will only rev it in the street from stoplight to stoplight.
justinnum1 commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:30 pm

The suspension in the ATS does sound pretty nice, but since i like in south florida it would be useless to me. Wish we had some curvy roads, when i go to CT i love driving around there in greenwich and pound ridge.
Chris90 commented:
September 29, 2012, 10:30 pm

I can't think of many V6's I'm a fan of: NSX had a sweet V6, GTI had a nice V6 but that's a VR6, which I think is closer to an inline six.

Some like the Nissan V6s but not me, I think they sound like arse.

So glad BMW hasn't switched to V6s.
GVFlyer commented:
September 30, 2012, 1:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I can't think of many V6's I'm a fan of: NSX had a sweet V6, GTI had a nice V6 but that's a VR6, which I think is closer to an inline six.

Some like the Nissan V6s but not me, I think they sound like arse.

So glad BMW hasn't switched to V6s.
And they run out of breath and start to thrash well before the red line. Nasty engines.
windsor027 commented:
September 30, 2012, 7:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Sweet. Which color interior?

BJ
I didn't get premium because I wanted the leatherette seats because of the dog. So its black with the red accent. Also didn't get the aluminium trim because a lot of people have complained about glare so I went with the glossy black. I might regret it later because it maybe too much black in the car.
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:11 am

BTW, it was confirmed the MT reviewer misspoke. He meant to say the ATS 2.0T needed to get into the 3rd gear at the end of the 0-60 run, resulting in slower time.

Scott also said he drove the same ATS at the press event last time, did not recall the ATS shifter was that bad. The car had since added maybe 3k miles on it.

So the ATS 2.0T in the MT test is a pre-production model. I am looking forward to a review taken cars from dealer stocks. Judging by my own experience though, I think both reviews hit the nail on the head.

BMW is more refined and mature, in the customary German fashion, they hit all the engineering detail right and to precision, from weight, to power delivery, to speed, to fuel economy and more.

But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis and exhaust (for the 3.6), and also because, well it is all new. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.

I am not saying the new F30 lacks emotional appeal, but the new ATS has more of it. It will be a tough call.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.
Nothing the ATS does will move the BMW 3 Series needle.

Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.

Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.

The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.

GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Nothing the ATS does will move the BMW 3 Series needle.

Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.

Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.

The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.

GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.

BJ
The ATS also allows a bit of repositioning in it's product line.

The CTS never quite fit. It was more like a 5 in size while being a bit too large and heavy to be a real 3 competitor. Now the ATS gets to target the 3 specifically, it allows the CTS to grow a bit more and allow a higher price spread to be more of a target for the 5. The CTS will have more driver focus and involvement than the 5 which has lost it's edge a bit with each generation after the E39. Now the F10 is a shortened 7 more than a slightly larger 3. So Cadillac has the challenge of making us forget the CTS was marketed as a competitor for the 3 and that it's price and size can soon compete with the 5.
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BTW, it was confirmed the MT reviewer misspoke. He meant to say the ATS 2.0T needed to get into the 3rd gear at the end of the 0-60 run, resulting in slower time.

Scott also said he drove the same ATS at the press event last time, did not recall the ATS shifter was that bad. The car had since added maybe 3k miles on it.

So the ATS 2.0T in the MT test is a pre-production model. I am looking forward to a review taken cars from dealer stocks. Judging by my own experience though, I think both reviews hit the nail on the head.

BMW is more refined and mature, in the customary German fashion, they hit all the engineering detail right and to precision, from weight, to power delivery, to speed, to fuel economy and more.

But the ATS is fun and refreshing, mainly due to its well tuned chassis and exhaust (for the 3.6), and also because, well it is all new. It has the usual American made flaws, but it can easily appeal to one's emotion when taken out on a twisty. And that emotional element is what defines this segment, or at least defines why many of us drive a BMW.

I am not saying the new F30 lacks emotional appeal, but the new ATS has more of it. It will be a tough call.
In your opinion of course, which doesn't mean a whole lot since you have been bashing the F30 for a while now.
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Nothing the ATS does will move the BMW 3 Series needle.

Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.

Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.

The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.

GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.

BJ
Over at any ATS or GM forums, there are plenty of formal and current BMW drivers who have already ordered the new ATS, or ready to do so. Of course GM can't expect to grab the majority of the 3 drivers. But if they could just grab 5% from each brand, including those moving up from the non-luxury models, and keep many GM drivers from leaving, that would be more than a success.

I do agree with you on their marketing ploy. They succeeded in getting the attention at the expense of the 3 series. If they continue to put their money where their mouth is, fine tune their engines, transmissions and CUE, they can win on the Buy American sentiment alone.

BTW, I know you do not accept this, and I agree supply shortage has some to do with the latest decline in the F30 sales, but the strength of the G and C sales has already moved the needle. Ultimately all manufactures must look at the bottom line, how many units do you push out to this crowded market each month, regardless how much the car mags like yours over the other. A 5% enthusiasts leaving your base could make or break the bean counters' pay.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Over at any ATS or GM forums, there are plenty of formal and current BMW drivers who have already ordered the new ATS, or ready to do so. Of course GM can't expect to grab the majority of the 3 drivers. But if they could just grab 5% from each brand, including those moving up from the non-luxury models, and keep many GM drivers from leaving, that would be more than a success.

I do agree with you on their marketing ploy. They succeeded in getting the attention at the expense of the 3 series. If they continue to put their money where their mouth is, fine tune their engines, transmissions and CUE, they can win on the Buy American sentiment alone.

BTW, I know you do not accept this, and I agree supply shortage has some to do with the latest decline in the F30 sales, but the strength of the G and C sales has already moved the needle. Ultimately all manufactures must look at the bottom line, how many units do you push out to this crowded market each month, regardless how much the car mags like yours over the other. A 5% enthusiasts leaving your base could make or break the bean counters' pay.
Good post, I agree.

BJ
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:54 am

No BMWs listed in the top cars that the auto writers would buy for under $100,000.

"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.

Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"

Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 12:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
No BMWs listed in the top cars that the auto writers would buy for under $100,000.

"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.

Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"

Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
You dont buy a BMW for value.
captainaudio commented:
September 30, 2012, 12:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
You dont buy a BMW for value.
The poll had nothing to do with value.

CA
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 12:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The poll had nothing to do with value.

CA
your right
captainaudio commented:
September 30, 2012, 12:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Nothing the ATS does will move the BMW 3 Series needle.

Enthusiast Buyers: At most 10% of the 3 Series population, very few will switch because the ATS doesn't do anything significantly better than a 335i Sport model and the Cadillac brand embarrasses.

Luxury Buyers: At least 90% of the 3 Series population, no one will switch because of the chasms in quality perception, age perception, sport perception, and brand perception.

The only brand that will be impacted by the ATS is Cadillac. They've just launched a smaller, cheaper car for the potential XTS or CTS customer. They'll get some Chevrolet and Buick owners too, the ATS being only $3,000 more than the top of their offerings.

GM knows this, by the way. You market a sporty Cadillac directly at BMW to make Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet buyers excited. So you don't lose more GM customers to the import makers. This is a defensive move, not an offensive one. If you took a few marketing classes, you'd understand this.

BJ
If it was a defensive move by GM (and at this point in time any marketing move by GM is an offensive move) one could argue that BMW making the new 3 Series a less driver focused and more luxury oriented car (if that what they did - I have never driven an F30) could be viewed as a defensive move as well to avoid loosing sales to brands like Lexus.

FWIW I was at the BMW sponsored Grand Am races at Lime Rock thid weekend and BMW had a huge presence and were definitely pushing the performance aspects of their cars.

CA
captainaudio commented:
September 30, 2012, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
your right
Actually I don't think the 3 Series represents a bad value.

CA
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 1:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
You dont buy a BMW for value.
The poll was asking what each automobile magazine writer would buy as their own car for up to $100,000. Many/most BMWs certainly fit into this price range.
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 1:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The poll was asking what each automobile magazine writer would buy as their own car for up to $100,000. Many/most BMWs certainly fit into this price range.
I wouldn't buy any other sport sedan under 50k
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
No BMWs listed in the top cars that the auto writers would buy for under $100,000.

"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.

Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"

Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
This is not a surprise, at least to me. If I wanted to spend $100,000 on a car it wouldn't be on a BMW either. Between $40,000 and $70,000 definitely, but at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's finest.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 2:43 pm

captainaudio If it was a defensive move by GM (and at this point in time any marketing move by GM is an offensive move) one could argue that BMW making the new 3 Series a less driver focused and more luxury oriented car (if that what they did - I have never driven an F30) could be viewed as a defensive move as well to avoid loosing sales to brands like Lexus.

No doubt it is. There aren't enough performance enthusiasts to make anything else worth their while.

FWIW I was at the BMW sponsored Grand Am races at Lime Rock thid weekend and BMW had a huge presence and were definitely pushing the performance aspects of their cars.

BMW still has a marketing budget to address the handful of performance enthusiasts left, it's no surprise that they'd use an event like this to push the performance aspects of their brand.

BJ
3ismagic# commented:
September 30, 2012, 2:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This is not a surprise, at least to me. If I wanted to spend $100,000 on a car it wouldn't be on a BMW either. Between $40,000 and $70,000 definitely, but at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's finest.

BJ
Umm most of those cars fall between $40k-$70k. Several below.
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 2:52 pm

Who made that list anyways?
captainaudio commented:
September 30, 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This is not a surprise, at least to me. If I wanted to spend $100,000 on a car it wouldn't be on a BMW either. Between $40,000 and $70,000 definitely, but at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's finest.

BJ
I think that the models that BMW makes that sell for around $100,000 are very competitive. The 7 is certainly one of the best in its segment and the 6, particularly the latest model is also very competitive in its segment as Is the M5.

BMW does not make a car that competes with the Porsche 911 which is probably the most expensive car on the list.
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 3:16 pm

I priced out a 911s a month ago and it came to 135,000. i dont know anyone that gets a 911s with no options.
tturedraider commented:
September 30, 2012, 3:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think that the models that BMW makes that sell for around $100,000 are very competitive. The 7 is certainly one of the best in its segment and the 6, particularly the latest model is also very competitive in its segment as is the M5.
+1 - words from someone who knows something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This is not a surprise, at least to me. If I wanted to spend $100,000 on a car it wouldn't be on a BMW either. Between $40,000 and $70,000 definitely, but at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's finest.

BJ
words from someone who does not.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think that the models that BMW makes that sell for around $100,000 are very competitive. The 7 is certainly one of the best in its segment and the 6, particularly the latest model is also very competitive in its segment as Is the M5.

BMW does not make a car that competes with the Porsche 911 which is probably the most expensive car on the list.
The question the writer asked was "what car would YOU buy if you had $100,000". He didn't ask who makes the best cars. It was a subjective question answered by a bunch of enthusiasts with their manual transmission fetishes. Not real world.

For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The question the writer asked was "what car would YOU buy if you had $100,000". He didn't ask who makes the best cars. It was a subjective question answered by a bunch of enthusiasts with their manual transmission fetishes. Not real world.

For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.

BJ
As you've said yourself, you can afford any car your successful trophy wife's salary can pay for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
......at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's [sic] finest.

BJ
This is what you said. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
captainaudio commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The question the writer asked was "what car would YOU buy if you had $100,000". He didn't ask who makes the best cars. It was a subjective question answered by a bunch of enthusiasts with their manual transmission fetishes. Not real world.

For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.

BJ
I was planning in giving you my 750iLx at the Fall Foliage Run since Ms. Audio wants an Aston Martin Rapide.

No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.

CA
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I was planning in giving you my 750iLx at the Fall Foliage Run since Ms. Audio wants an Aston Martin Rapide.

No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.

CA
He would probably take and then trade it in for a F33 lol
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
As you've said yourself, you can afford any car your successful trophy wife's salary can pay for.

This is what you said. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
No, this is what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This is not a surprise, at least to me. If I wanted to spend $100,000 on a car it wouldn't be on a BMW either. Between $40,000 and $70,000 definitely, but at $100,000 BMW isn't at it's finest.

BJ
For ME, I'm not spending $100,000 on a BMW product because I find them neither overly luxurious or overly sporty. I'll take a Porsche, thank you.

As for my wife, mind your ******* business.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I was planning in giving you my 750iLx at the Fall Foliage Run since Ms. Audio wants an Aston Martin Rapide.

No that I know you won't take it I'll have to find someone else.

CA
Thank you for your generous gift. I've changed my mind, decided to give the 750iLx a try.

BJ
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I wouldn't buy any other sport sedan under 50k
That may be true, but what car would you buy if you had $100,000 to spend?
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The question the writer asked was "what car would YOU buy if you had $100,000". He didn't ask who makes the best cars. It was a subjective question answered by a bunch of enthusiasts with their manual transmission fetishes. Not real world.

For me, I have no need or interest in something as big as a 7, the 6 won't fit my family, and the M5 is uncomfortable and impractical. Since I can afford any car I want I am driving the car I want which is a $50,000 nicely optioned 3 Series. Up near $100,000, BMW doesn't make a car that I'd want if you gave it to me for free. I'd take an F30 and an F33 if that counts, those two add up to $100,000.

BJ
I actually think this is a decent poll since these writers contemplate cars everyday. The Subaru vote came from a true car enthusiast, and devoid of any narcissism.
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I priced out a 911s a month ago and it came to 135,000. i dont know anyone that gets a 911s with no options.
Automobile magazine writers can probably get very good deals on cars.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 5:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
He would probably take and then trade it in for a F33 lol
If I had the garage space to fit it, I'd have the following three cars:

1975 BMW 3.0CSi
2013 BMW 328i Luxury
2013 BMW Z4is

One vintage, one everyday, one weekend fun. Hair over $100,000, but who's counting?

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That may be true, but what car would you buy if you had $100,000 to spend?
depends what my needs were

Sedan-panamera s
Coupe-carman s
Convertible-Boxster S
SUV-X5m
Elk commented:
September 30, 2012, 6:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
As for my wife, mind your ******* business.
You cannot continually trumpet the claimed accomplishments of your alleged wife and simultaneously complain when someone comments.

I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 6:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
You cannot continually trumpet the claimed accomplishments of your alleged wife and simultaneously complain when someone comments.

I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
You cannot continually trumpet the claimed accomplishments of your alleged wife and simultaneously complain when someone comments.

I suspect most would be delighted if you left your "wife," and similar irrelevancies, out of your posts. Until this happens (I'm not holding my breath), learn to deal with the fallout - only you are responsible.
I've got no issue with that from the likes of you and the rest of F30 Nation.

The poster in question has an ulterior motive and doesn't have the best interests of BMW and F30 drivers in mind, different story.

BJ
Tomjh commented:
September 30, 2012, 7:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
The suspension in the ATS does sound pretty nice, but since i like in south florida it would be useless to me. Wish we had some curvy roads, when i go to CT i love driving around there in greenwich and pound ridge.
I live here also and it's like oboy finally a curve in the road
bayoucity commented:
September 30, 2012, 8:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
If I had the garage space to fit it, I'd have the following three cars:

1975 BMW 3.0CSi
2013 BMW 328i Luxury
2013 BMW Z4is

One vintage, one everyday, one weekend fun. Hair over $100,000, but who's counting?

BJ
BJ, I sometimes question your taste. However, I'm agreeing with you on 75 3.0 csi.

dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 8:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Good post, I agree.

BJ
I just framed it on my wall.

Now what have I missed after the above post of BJ?
justinnum1 commented:
September 30, 2012, 8:29 pm

55% of the ATS is domestic. Engine is made in mexico.
Michael Schott commented:
September 30, 2012, 8:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
No BMWs listed in the top cars that the auto writers would buy for under $100,000.

"As automotive writers, we're always asked what our favorite cars are or which cars we would buy if we had the money. To answer the latter query, Vanity Fair writer Brett Berk polled 13 scribes to see what they'd pick for under $100,000. An interesting mix of vehicles ensues. Some of the choices stretched the imaginary budget to its max while others went all bang-for-the-buck on us, but what's most surprising about the list is that more than half the cars on it are available with a manual transmission.

Of course cars like the Porsche 911, Ford Mustang and a couple of Mercedes-Benz AMG cars make the cut, but there were also a handful of choices that caught us off guard. Jonny Lieberman of Motor Trend chose the Subaru BRZ, Autoblog weekend editor Alex Nunez would love commuting in a brown Tesla Model S Performance, and Jake Fisher of Consumer Reports picked the Hyundai Veloster... non-turbo!"

Here's the full list of what these 13 auto writers would take home if given a sub-$100,000 car:
Mercedes-Benz E63 Wagon
Audi A7
Mini John Cooper Works Convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Hyundai Veloster
Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid
Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
Jaguar XF Supercharged
Lotus Evora
Subaru BRZ
Tesla Model S Performance
Ford Mustang Boss 302
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
Can you post a list of all 13 automotive writers if available? I'm not surprised that the CR reporter chose the least sporty car of the group. Even the Cayenne is sportier than a Veloster.
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 9:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
55% of the ATS is domestic. Engine is made in mexico.
Knew that already, what else I missed?

Oh that list of cars the journalists picked. Here is an example why they cannot be trusted when it comes to picking a winner in this segment. The entry level luxury sedan segment is supposedly the most demanding of all, has so many entries, must meet so many demands of the drivers and their families all at the same time.

Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
Michael Schott commented:
September 30, 2012, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Knew that already, what else I missed?

Oh that list of cars the journalists picked. Here is an example why they cannot be trusted when it comes to picking a winner in this segment. The entry level luxury sedan segment is supposedly the most demanding of all, has so many entries, must meet so many demands of the drivers and their families all at the same time.

Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
That' why we need to know all of the voters. No one I know considers CR an enthusiast oriented review magazine, the one magazine I'd even slightly see as enthusiast oriented listed so far is MT and they picked a damn fine car. I've read that some C and D editors own 3 series BMW's. I f these guys were real enthusiasts and could choose a car for $100K, I'd think the Porsche 911 would be the choice of many.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

Logic says the winner(s) of this segment should be on that list. I guess we are not as important a demographic as we thought.
All the writers polled already own BMW 3 Series.

If the money fairy came down and dropped $100 grand under your pillow, why go buy something you already have? Live the fantasy, get something different. There's a Ford and a Hyundai on the list, not really sure if the hillbilly vote counts here.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:39 pm

The fact those reviewers own 3 series, would that not disqualify them from reviewing other cars against the 3? Any judge faced with similar situation will long have excused him or herself from making the judgment.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The fact those reviewers own 3 series, would that not disqualify them from reviewing other cars against the 3? Any judge faced with similar situation will long have excused him or herself from making the judgment.
Let me make sure I get this straight:

For months you tell us how the ATS is coming to kick some BMW ass.

For months we tell you that no one is interested in dumping their BMW for a crappy GM with a brand-image problem.

The ATS finally arrives, a big oh-fer in two significant publications head-to-head reviews.

Someone digs up an obscure article about a dozen writers and their personal choices in cars around $100,000.

Now that the Cadillac has failed to crush the BMW 3, it's time for you to support the Ford Mustang Boss 302 and the Hyundai Veloster in your quest to tell F30 drivers that they're stupid.

I get that right?

BJ
tturedraider commented:
September 30, 2012, 10:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The fact those reviewers own 3 series, would that not disqualify them from reviewing other cars against the 3? Any judge faced with similar situation will long have excused him or herself from making the judgment.
What would you have them drive? They have to drive something and they review cars across the board. It has long been known the car of personal choice for the majority of writers at C&D is the 3er.......you know, non-enthusiast, preppy, yuppies that they are looking for maximum cred with the Camry crowd at Wal*Mart.
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Let me make sure I get this straight:

For months you tell us how the ATS is coming to kick some BMW ass.

For months we tell you that no one is interested in dumping their BMW for a crappy GM with a brand-image problem.

The ATS finally arrives, a big oh-fer in two significant publications head-to-head reviews.

Someone digs up an obscure article about a dozen writers and their personal choices in cars around $100,000.

Now that the Cadillac has failed to crush the BMW 3, it's time for you to support the Ford Mustang Boss 302 and the Hyundai Veloster in your quest to tell F30 drivers that they're stupid.

I get that right?

BJ
You completely lost me.
dtc100 commented:
September 30, 2012, 11:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
What would you have them drive? They have to drive something and they review cars across the board. It has long been known the car of personal choice for the majority of writers at C&D is the 3er.......you know, non-enthusiast, preppy, yuppies that they are looking for maximum cred with the Camry crowd at Wal*Mart.
Ok maybe there is no choice but let them do the reviews, but should there not be a disclaimer, like any stock analyst will know to list his or her holdings at the end of the analysis, if such holdings are relevant.

I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.

That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?

Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.

BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
beden1 commented:
October 1, 2012, 12:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Can you post a list of all 13 automotive writers if available? I'm not surprised that the CR reporter chose the least sporty car of the group. Even the Cayenne is sportier than a Veloster.
Let me see if this link works for the Vanity Fair article. My previous attempts did not work.

http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1

Bingo!

I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."
bayoucity commented:
October 1, 2012, 12:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Let me see if this link works for the Vanity Fair article. My previous attempts did not work.

http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1

Bingo!

I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."

FYI, Mr. Sam Smith on slide #12 is also an in-house Roundel magazine columnist (you shall know him if you still have a valid BMWCCA membership) :

Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track

Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)


"Side-mounted exhaust pipes loud enough to rattle dishes in the next county. A stick for a rear axle-solid, like a pickup truck's, and thus gloriously feisty. A 5.0-liter, 444-hp V8 that spins to a vibrasonic 7,500 rpm. Suspension that works a veritable miracle, performing well on both track and street. Drive one of these things, and you feel like the world's most sophisticated goon. Scratch that: you are the world's most sophisticated goon. I have stripes. Do you have stripes? No? Then get the hell out of the way."
captainaudio commented:
October 1, 2012, 1:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
BJ, I sometimes question your taste. However, I'm agreeing with you on 3.0 csi.


There were a number of them at the Sunday in the Park concours portion of the Lime Rock Historics on Labor Day Sunday. The first BMW I ever drove was a friends 2800 CS.

CA
Chris90 commented:
October 1, 2012, 7:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
FYI, Mr. Sam Smith on slide #12 is also an in-house Roundel magazine columnist (you shall know him if you still have a valid BMWCCA membership) :

Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track

Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)


"Side-mounted exhaust pipes loud enough to rattle dishes in the next county. A stick for a rear axle-solid, like a pickup truck's, and thus gloriously feisty. A 5.0-liter, 444-hp V8 that spins to a vibrasonic 7,500 rpm. Suspension that works a veritable miracle, performing well on both track and street. Drive one of these things, and you feel like the world's most sophisticated goon. Scratch that: you are the world's most sophisticated goon. I have stripes. Do you have stripes? No? Then get the hell out of the way."
Part ofme wants to buy the most obnoxious car I can afford, that would be the Boss
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 8:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Ok maybe there is no choice but let them do the reviews, but should there not be a disclaimer, like any stock analyst will know to list his or her holdings at the end of the analysis, if such holdings are relevant.

I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.

That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?

Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.

BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
What C and D review are you referring to?
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 8:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Let me see if this link works for the Vanity Fair article. My previous attempts did not work.

http://www.vanityfair.com/style/stic...to-buy#slide=1

Bingo!

I like this quote: "In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no."
Thank you. Surprisingly funny and well written takes. If one takes the time to read the article and continues to make it about not owning BMW, then that person needs to get a funny bone and get a real life.
beden1 commented:
October 1, 2012, 9:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Thank you. Surprisingly funny and well written takes. If one takes the time to read the article and continues to make it about not owning BMW, then that person needs to get a funny bone and get a real life.
The surprising find for me was the Subaru BRZ. I definitely want to test drive one.

A quote from the article: "Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K, with all the proper options ticked."

It also looks like being a automotive journalist is not a road to riches. Most are driving older cars, and it's nice to see how they are just like everyone else, mostly raising young families and having to set their priorities accordingly.
justinnum1 commented:
October 1, 2012, 10:09 am

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...full-test.html

Quote:
That the ATS is not yet capable of bettering the class benchmark in its first generation should surprise no one
boltjaM3s commented:
October 1, 2012, 10:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Another major publication, another Cadillac loss. Read some comments from those who read that article:

Quote:
The only thing the 328i has over the ATS is snob appeal. Look at most of the 3-Series owners; the vast majority could care less about actual performance or driving in general. Rather, they are too busy keeping up with the Jones's.

I really do hate that we as Americans were forced to bail out GM and will probably never buy a GM vehicle because of it.
Quote:
For those discussing MSRP - it's meaningless. Look at 3-series sales - dominated by leases.

Compare the ATS vs. 3-series lease.

Caddy's challenge is getting people to buy an unknown new car (the ATS) for $20-30 less a month than the aggressive lease prices on a 3-series, a well-recognized and beloved model.
The problem with building a Cadillac for enthusiasts is that there aren't enough of them.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 10:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The surprising find for me was the Subaru BRZ. I definitely want to test drive one.

A quote from the article: "Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K, with all the proper options ticked."

It also looks like being a automotive journalist is not a road to riches. Most are driving older cars, and it's nice to see how they are just like everyone else, mostly raising young families and having to set their priorities accordingly.
If that is the case, apparently they spoke of their fantasies, not what best suited their needs, both out of their own passion and for their families.
beden1 commented:
October 1, 2012, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If that is the case, apparently they spoke of their fantasies, not what best suited their needs, both out of their own passion and for their families.
I guess you can read the article to determine where you perceive the writers were coming from.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I guess you can read the article to determine where you perceive the writers were coming from.
I can't, I will make the same mistake of taking one of those cars home, only to have to trade it in after a few months. Once is enough. The day will come, I hope.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
This is a more balanced review, it confirms my impression. The ATS is built to have max fun on twisties and at turns. It has faster trap time, stops sooner, pulls more lateral g, and with better steering connection to the front tires. I am more convinced the 3.6L is the only way to go if one considers an ATS primarily for fun and driving dynamics, despite every report saying the 2.0T will be the volume seller.

The 3.6L will have the exhaust note, and the power to compete in this segment. But to do so, the 3.6L needs to have 328i's price.

The minimum MSRP for the most performance optioned ATS 3.6 is $48k. The most performance optioned F30 328i is only $39k, although without many fancy items such as navigation and LSD.
elistan commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:31 am

No ATS content in this post, simply a summary of the Vanity Fair article, with my own commentary.


Eddie Alterman, Editor in Chief, Car and Driver
Current Car: 1983 Mercedes-Benz 300D
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG wagon ($98,950)


Brett Berk, Automotive Columnist, Vanity Fair
Current Cars: 2004 BMW 325i Sport, 1972 GMC Suburban 4x4
Car Pick: 2013 Audi A7 Prestige ($75,920)
Specifically mentions 3-series wagon would be #1 if it had been available.


Andrew Del-Colle, Associate Editor, Popular Mechanics
Current Car: None Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: Mini John Cooper Works Convertible ($51,723)
$52k?!?!?!?!?!


Hannah Elliott, Staff Reporter, Forbes
Current Car: My grandmother’s Chelsea boots Note: (NYC resident)
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S ($99,415)


Jake Fisher, Director of Auto Testing, Consumer Reports Cars
Current Cars: Consumer Reports’ test cars
Car Pick: 2013 Hyundai Veloster ($19,450)
Said he's going practical to afford dedicated track car


Justin Hyde, Senior Editor, Motoramic, the Yahoo! Autos blog
Current Car: 2010 Mazda 5
Car Pick: 2013 Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid ($98,970)


Jean Jennings, Editor in Chief, Automobile
Current Car: 2007 Chevrolet Suburban
Car Pick: Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG ($95,900)


Davey Johnson, Senior Online Editor, West Coast, Autoweek
Current Car: 1994 Chevy K1500 Blazer
Car Pick: Jaguar XF Supercharged ($72,225)
"In California, BMWs are like Bavarian cockroaches, so, no." Personally, I don't pay attention to what others are driving when making vehicle choices. YMMV.


Jamie Kitman, New York Bureau Chief, Automobile; Contributor, GQ, Yahoo! Autos, NPR’s Car Talk
Current Cars: An assortment of 30+ vintage European vehicles
Car Pick: Lotus Evora S ($83,745)


Jonny Lieberman, Senior Features Editor, Motor Trend
Current Car: 2001 Subaru WRX Wagon
Car Pick: Subaru BRZ ($27,900)
"Most important for us writerly types, you get $90,000-plus Porsche-style handling for right around $28K."


Alex Nunez, Senior Editor, Autos, ConsumerSearch.com
Current Car: 2006 Ford Mustang GT
Car Pick: Tesla Model S Performance ($92,400—before $7,500 federal tax credit)


Sam Smith, Executive Editor, Road & Track
Current Car: 1989 BMW M3
Car Pick: 2013 Ford Mustang Boss 302 ($42,995)
Hoon.


Tamara Warren, Freelance Automotive Journalist, Forbes, Gotryke, Gearist
Current Cars: 1983 Dodge Diplomat, 1988 Dodge Diplomat, 1965 Dodge Coronet
Car Pick: 2013 Range Rover Evoque ($60,095)
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Ok maybe there is no choice but let them do the reviews, but should there not be a disclaimer, like any stock analyst will know to list his or her holdings at the end of the analysis, if such holdings are relevant.

I know you were being sarcastic, but the issue is real. Just look at how the current F30 owners defend their turf.

That reminds me how the C&D reviewer conducted his test. I don't know if he drives a 3 as his daily driver or not, but he clearly did not like the ATS, he appeared not wanting to be bothered by it. He even complained about the CUE because his large radar detector cord touched the screen and changed the speaker volume. Really? Who dangles a three feet cord down from the rear view mirror?

Of course in the end, he characterized the ATS as another fly swipped away by the new 3 series. Was that necessary? Was he trying to be funny or to make sure we know he could not wait for that video to be over? He sure sounded solemnly when he said it. He did not even try to hide his bias.

BJ would have been a more objective reviewer in that video.
Found the C and D comparo video. I don't see how you could possibly think the test driver did not like the ATS. He praised the chassis and steering as much better than the 328i. And think a bit about radar detectors. If the outlet is in the console than the cord has to go across the screen. The point he was making is the screen is too sensitive and doesn't offer a knob like used on Audi, Mercedes and BMW multi-function displays. In fact this is the same complaint that this sort of system received when they first came out. The idea is good, the execution poor. The Cadillac engine sounds like it's seriously lacking vs the BMW. It makes less power than advertised and runs out of steam early. Major screw up by Cadillac. People are ripping on BMW for having a 4 cylinder engine in a $40K+ car but at least it's a great 4 banger. The GM engine does not seem to be in the same class.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:45 am

I sat in Tesla Model S several times, it was surprisingly large both inside and out. If it can be smaller, lighter, and I have money to waste, it will be a perfect dedicated track car, just enough range per charge for max fun on the track.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 1, 2012, 11:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

The minimum MSRP for the most performance optioned ATS 3.6 is $48k. The most performance optioned F30 328i is only $39k, although without many fancy items such as navigation and LSD.
A $39k MSRP F30 is pretty much a base car, I know-I had built one at first.

My M-Sport is still incredibly light on options and MSRP'd for $43k. An averagely equipped car is $43-45k. If you option both cars to be competitive with each other, a $39k F30 is not going to cut it against an V-6 ATS.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
A $39k MSRP F30 is pretty much a base car, I know-I had built one at first.

My M-Sport is still incredibly light on options and MSRP'd for $43k. An averagely equipped car is $43-45k. If you option both cars to be competitive with each other, a $39k F30 is not going to cut it against an V-6 ATS.
That's the good part of the F30, you can option a best performing 328i for $39k, or the best performing 335i for $43k. With ATS, you have to have the very top trim to have all the performance options added.

I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
Chris90 commented:
October 1, 2012, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That's the good part of the F30, you can option a best performing 328i for $39k, or the best performing 335i for $43k. With ATS, you have to have the very top trim to have all the performance options added.

I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
+1 BMW has always been one of the best about this, compared to competitors who require you to buy every single package to get the individual options you want.
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That's the good part of the F30, you can option a best performing 328i for $39k, or the best performing 335i for $43k. With ATS, you have to have the very top trim to have all the performance options added.

I am also not ruling out the ATS 2.0T, but we have sufficient reviews to draw, that the 2.0T will have no exhaust or intake sound to speak of, and not as pleasing engine rev or power delivery, for fun driving, 3.6 seems the choice for not a lot more money.
No MT for the 3.6. A deal killer for me.
justinnum1 commented:
October 1, 2012, 1:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
No MT for the 3.6. A deal killer for me.
That makes no sense. They want to compete with BMW but won't offer a 6spd
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 1:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
That makes no sense. They want to compete with BMW but won't offer a 6spd
Yes, it's hard to understand. It doesn't look like Cadillac offers a MT with this engine in the CTS but does on the 3.0 V-6. Hopefully one is in development.
Chris90 commented:
October 1, 2012, 1:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
That makes no sense. They want to compete with BMW but won't offer a 6spd
It will make sense once the ATS-V is out - anyone who wants the V6 w/ 6 speed will likely go for the ATS-V instead.

They can throw the 6 speed from the Camaro ZL1 in there.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
No MT for the 3.6. A deal killer for me.
Look at the bright side, if you can live with the 2.0T manual ATS, LSD comes standard (no MRC), so a similarly performance optioned ATS (compared to the $38k 328i) is only $34,615 MSRP, the standard sport suspension is quite good.

I did not notice much difference between the sport seat and the standard seat in the ATS. If nice sport seats are the priority, one should try the Audi S4. It is not just front sport seats, but back seats too.
Michael Schott commented:
October 1, 2012, 2:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
It will make sense once the ATS-V is out - anyone who wants the V6 w/ 6 speed will likely go for the ATS-V instead.

They can throw the 6 speed from the Camaro ZL1 in there.
Maybe that applies for Cadillac's market but certainly not BMW's as we know they sell at least a decent amount of N55's with MT.
tturedraider commented:
October 1, 2012, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Maybe that applies for Cadillac's market but certainly not BMW's as we know they sell at least a decent amount of N55's with MT.
Fewer than 10% in the U.S. This is why about three years they increased the base price and made the automatic standard equipment with the manual as a no cost (and no credit) option.
dtc100 commented:
October 1, 2012, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Fewer than 10% in the U.S. This is why about three years they increased the base price and made the automatic standard equipment with the manual as a no cost (and no credit) option.
The ATS 2.0T not only has LSD standard if you pick manual, there is also a $1k+ credit for the manual, which is why it can be priced so low. Unfortunately the reviews on the manual have been bad.
beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:47 pm

This article was posted in the E90 section by kck7. I found it oh so fitting to this thread, and like an ode to BJ.

Such classic lines as- 'The sort of person who buys a BMW would rather be force fed Velveeta cubes than drive a Cadillac.'

Or this classic - "BMW logo, declaring that it stood for "Beauty. Money. Wealth."

Read more: [http://www.askmen.com/cars/car_tips/...#ixzz28GgHPjvN

I have to admit that I was a Yuppie back in the day starting in the latter 1970s. Then my wife and I became DINKs.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The ATS 2.0T not only has LSD standard if you pick manual, there is also a $1k+ credit for the manual, which is why it can be priced so low. Unfortunately the reviews on the manual have been bad.
And the engine.