Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

by Bimmerfest.com Member - The X Men on October 3, 2012, 10:54 am
According to the Sep. 2012 sales reports: BMW 3 series, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, -16.8% and year to date -3.1%. The MB C class, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +14.7% and year to date +25.2%. The Audi A4, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +12.8% and year to date +6.9%.
For a car that is recently redesigned and considering that both the C-class and the A4 is at the end of their design cycles, the new 3 series should be be posting much better sales numbers.


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343 responses to Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
According to the Sep. 2012 sales reports: BMW 3 series, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, -16.8% and year to date -3.1%. The MB C class, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +14.7% and year to date +25.2%. The Audi A4, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +12.8% and year to date +6.9%.
For a car that is recently redesigned and considering that both the C-class and the A4 is at the end of their design cycles, the new 3 series should be be posting much better sales numbers.
It's a total flop and BMW will be out of business shortly


























beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
According to the Sep. 2012 sales reports: BMW 3 series, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, -16.8% and year to date -3.1%. The MB C class, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +14.7% and year to date +25.2%. The Audi A4, Sep 2012 compare to Sep 2011, +12.8% and year to date +6.9%.
For a car that is recently redesigned and considering that both the C-class and the A4 is at the end of their design cycles, the new 3 series should be be posting much better sales numbers.
I would say that it looks like there is trouble brewing in River City, especially since I had read another article that said US car sales in September were the best they have been since early '08.

Where did you get the sales breakdown per manufacturer/model?
voip-ninja commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:26 am

The problem BMW has with the 3-series in the US is the price hike vs the E90 and no question it's hurting sales.
Michael Schott commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
The problem BMW has with the 3-series in the US is the price hike vs the E90 and no question it's hurting sales.
How can you say "no question"? There are way to many factors to be certain of this. Remember that the E92 and E93 are at the end of their lives and that probably hurts sales. There still seems to be a shortage of F30's as well which hurts. Price may also be a factor but in reality it makes no sense to judge sales of a car when it really hasn't been available as a full line yet. Lets look back on this in a year to have a large enough sample size and enough time to make a proper evaluation.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
How can you say "no question"? There are way to many factors to be certain of this. Remember that the E92 and E93 are at the end of their lives and that probably hurts sales. There still seems to be a shortage of F30's as well which hurts. Price may also be a factor but in reality it makes no sense to judge sales of a car when it really hasn't been available as a full line yet. Lets look back on this in a year to have a large enough sample size and enough time to make a proper evaluation.
Stop it, stop using common sense.
beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:43 am

According to this web site, BMW 3 Series sales appear to be trending up in September over August 2012, but still down considerably as compared to year-over-year sales. Up through April 2012, the sales numbers would appear to include previous model close-out sales.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
voip-ninja commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
How can you say "no question"? There are way to many factors to be certain of this. Remember that the E92 and E93 are at the end of their lives and that probably hurts sales. There still seems to be a shortage of F30's as well which hurts. Price may also be a factor but in reality it makes no sense to judge sales of a car when it really hasn't been available as a full line yet. Lets look back on this in a year to have a large enough sample size and enough time to make a proper evaluation.
Fair enough comment. I just remember the difference in pricing out an E90 two years ago vs the F30 and certainly caused me to hesitate when placing my order. Clearly that's not empirical data.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Fair enough comment. I just remember the difference in pricing out an E90 two years ago vs the F30 and certainly caused me to hesitate when placing my order. Clearly that's not empirical data.
Have you looked at my F30 price thread?
voip-ninja commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Have you looked at my F30 price thread?
Nope... and seeing as I have already swallowed the red pill and taken delivery of my car there is little point in doing so.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 12:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Nope... and seeing as I have already swallowed the red pill and taken delivery of my car there is little point in doing so.
It might make you feel better. Adjusted for inflation the 2013 F30 328i is less expensive than a comparably equipped 2009 model. And barely more expensive than the price not adjusted for inflation.
windsor027 commented:
October 3, 2012, 12:33 pm

I will withhold judgement until the E9x models have run their course. And if you think about it the E9x was such a high volume car as it was getting ready to be replaced by the F30, so I am not suprised the A4 and the C-class are getting bought up. There are some sweet deals out there for both models.
The X Men commented:
October 3, 2012, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
How can you say "no question"? There are way to many factors to be certain of this. Remember that the E92 and E93 are at the end of their lives and that probably hurts sales. There still seems to be a shortage of F30's as well which hurts. Price may also be a factor but in reality it makes no sense to judge sales of a car when it really hasn't been available as a full line yet. Lets look back on this in a year to have a large enough sample size and enough time to make a proper evaluation.
I agree, E92 and E93 are at the end of their design cycle, but so are the competitions. I also did not include the sales numbers for the Audi A5, which is technically a A4 coupe. The A5 's sales numbers went up 25.6% last month compare to Sep 2011 and year to date compare to last year went up 10.9%. What is this shortage that everyone is talking about, there are plenty of F30 in dealer lots here in the Northeast. My guess is that F30 sales might be better in a year or two, but thats not due to stock or full line, it will be due to pricing structure. Unfortunately, both the A4 and the C class are due for redesign for the MY 2014 and the 3 series will have stiffer competition.
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
It might make you feel better. Adjusted for inflation the 2013 F30 328i is less expensive than a comparably equipped 2009 model. And barely more expensive than the price not adjusted for inflation.
Since most buyers just walk into a dealership and buy a car off the lot, you'd have to compare typical price of cars on the lot. Dunno if that's higher though.

The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 12:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
It's a total flop and BMW will be out of business shortly.
I'm going to return mine tomorrow, maybe get a 2011 328xi because it's so fresh looking.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Stop it, stop using common sense.
Not enough F30 inventory. Check.

Not enough XDrive models. Check.

Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.

A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.

Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.

E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.

BJ
MacManVA commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:03 pm

I currently own a 2012 Audi A4 Prestige S-Line fully loaded that I will be trading in when my 328xDrive arrives. A couple of things to keep in mind. If you look at the A4 sales for last year they where down most of the year and there was no Audi advertising for that model. This year the model has been refreshed and I have noticed a significant increase in the Audi advertising I see on TV and online. I'm sure both of those play into the increase in sales. Also, wasn't the MB C-Class refreshed before the new F30's? If so then they have had more time on the market.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
The problem BMW has with the 3-series in the US is the price hike vs the E90 and no question it's hurting sales.
My F30 lease is $60 a month less than my E90 lease was and its more heavily configured.

In fact, I'm in my third E9X since 2006 and I'm paying less than the prior two. I don't think it's price. It's, what else, a transition.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManVA View Post
I currently own a 2012 Audi A4 Prestige S-Line fully loaded that I will be trading in when my 328xDrive arrives. A couple of things to keep in mind. If you look at the A4 sales for last year they where down most of the year and there was no Audi advertising for that model. This year the model has been refreshed and I have noticed a significant increase in the Audi advertising I see on TV and online. I'm sure both of those play into the increase in sales. Also, wasn't the MB C-Class refreshed before the new F30's? If so then they have had more time on the market.
The new MY C Class actually has some significant updates inside, which may explain why it is now the top seller in this segment.

If MY transition is to blame, the C Class transition seems much well executed.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:26 pm

I think you will start seeing more advertising when there is sufficient inventory.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Since most buyers just walk into a dealership and buy a car off the lot, you'd have to compare typical price of cars on the lot. Dunno if that's higher though.

The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
Most drivers dont know the difference between cars. They pick BMW for the same reason others pick mercedes or audi. They want the roundel. BMW's biggest thing going for it is the better residuals and lease numbers compared to audi and mercedes and the free service. THose things are still there. The f30 will outsell the a4 and c class during it's 7 year run.
need4speed commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:34 pm

The f30 is so evolutionary vis a vie the e90 there is nothing to make me want to run out and buy one. When the e9x came out and I compared it to my e46, I had to have one. Now, I really don't see much advantage. N4S
windsor027 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
The f30 is so evolutionary vis a vie the e90 there is nothing to make me want to run out and buy one. When the e9x came out and I compared it to my e46, I had to have one. Now, I really don't see much advantage. N4S
You have got to be kidding. you actually test drove an F30?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
The f30 is so evolutionary vis a vie the e90 there is nothing to make me want to run out and buy one. When the e9x came out and I compared it to my e46, I had to have one. Now, I really don't see much advantage. N4S
That is very true, at least on paper.

And since the E90 sold so well, it's a matter of waiting for those millions of leases to expire and those owners to transition right into the F30. It's a great car, nothing about it would make an E90 owner unhappy, quite the opposite in fact, BMW will have a huge conversion rate. The biggest group of potential F30 owners are presently in E90 leases.

BJ
samualcc commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:46 pm

This thread seems similar to another thread we just had. We can probably start these threads using a Mad Libs game:

Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.

Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.

I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.

I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.

Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.

P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
MacManVA commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
This thread seems similar to another thread we just had. We can probably start these threads using a Mad Libs game:

Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.

Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.

I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.

I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.

Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.

P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
This thread seems similar to another thread we just had. We can probably start these threads using a Mad Libs game:

Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.

Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.

I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.

I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.

Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.

P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
The X Men commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManVA View Post
I currently own a 2012 Audi A4 Prestige S-Line fully loaded that I will be trading in when my 328xDrive arrives. A couple of things to keep in mind. If you look at the A4 sales for last year they where down most of the year and there was no Audi advertising for that model. This year the model has been refreshed and I have noticed a significant increase in the Audi advertising I see on TV and online. I'm sure both of those play into the increase in sales. Also, wasn't the MB C-Class refreshed before the new F30's? If so then they have had more time on the market.
The C class was refresh for the 2012 model year and the A4 had a minor refresh for 2013. Keep in mind, a refresh is not the same as a redesign, it rarely generates as much increase in sales as a full redesign. Its almost like MB and Audi is sent in their AAA minor baseball team against BMW's major league team and MB and Audi is winning.
beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 1:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That is very true, at least on paper.

And since the E90 sold so well, it's a matter of waiting for those millions of leases to expire and those owners to transition right into the F30. It's a great car, nothing about it would make an E90 owner unhappy, quite the opposite in fact, BMW will have a huge conversion rate. The biggest group of potential F30 owners are presently in E90 leases.

BJ
Hopefully BMW is able to correct the steering vibration issue. Have you noticed it on yours?
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not enough F30 inventory. Check.

Not enough XDrive models. Check.

Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.

A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.

Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.

E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.

BJ
BMW didn't used to need excuses.

The local dealer has 18 2013 328Xi's on the lot. If the problem is really pent up demand of customers sitting around for months itching to buy a 328Xi, why so many cars sitting there?
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:36 pm

I do find it interesting that those who are taking issue with this are E90 owners, or other previous generation owners. Over the next 7 years(the F30 lifecycle) it will outsell all other cars in it's class.
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I do find it interesting that those who are taking issue with this are E90 owners, or other previous generation owners. Over the next 7 years(the F30 lifecycle) it will outsell all other cars in it's class.
Nobody's taking issue, we just find it interesting.

You have a crystal ball or something that predicts car sales?
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Since most buyers just walk into a dealership and buy a car off the lot, you'd have to compare typical price of cars on the lot. Dunno if that's higher though.

The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
There is a raft of options available on the F30 that weren't previously available that are going to cause these cars to have higher prices when they are so equipped. That is exactly why it's useful to look at comparably equipped past models to get a fair perspective on what is behind the higher prices of today's cars.

That people can't tell a BMW driving experience from that of other brands is not supported by the frequent threads posted here by new buyers expressing their excitement over how their car drives and stating they will never go back.

btw - it's MUCH LESS a case of BMWs driving like the competition than it is the competition driving more like a BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The new MY C Class actually has some significant updates inside, which may explain why it is now the top seller in this segment.

If MY transition is to blame, the C Class transition seems much well executed.
The C Class didn't make a transition. It got a facelift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
The f30 is so evolutionary vis a vie the e90 there is nothing to make me want to run out and buy one. When the e9x came out and I compared it to my e46, I had to have one. Now, I really don't see much advantage. N4S
Every other redesign is more "revolutionary". This one is "evolutionary". This is BMW's stated SOP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And since the E90 sold so well, it's a matter of waiting for those millions of leases to expire and those owners to transition right into the F30. It's a great car, nothing about it would make an E90 owner unhappy, quite the opposite in fact, BMW will have a huge conversion rate. The biggest group of potential F30 owners are presently in E90 leases.

BJ
This is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The C class was refresh for the 2012 model year and the A4 had a minor refresh for 2013. Keep in mind, a refresh is not the same as a redesign, it rarely generates as much increase in sales as a full redesign. Its almost like MB and Audi is sent in their AAA minor baseball team against BMW's major league team and MB and Audi have had some good innings.
fixed
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I do find it interesting that those who are taking issue with this are E90 owners, or other previous generation owners. Over the next 7 years(the F30 lifecycle) it will outsell all other cars in it's class.
How do you know that? The gap is becoming smaller and smaller and the competition is ancient outside of the ATS.
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
There is a raft of options available on the F30 that weren't previously available that are going to cause these cars to have higher prices when they are so equipped. That is exactly why it's useful to look at comparably equipped past models to get a fair perspective on what is behind the higher prices of today's cars.

That people can't tell a BMW driving experience from that of other brands is not supported by the frequent threads posted here by new buyers expressing their excitement over how their car drives and stating they will never go back.

btw - it's MUCH LESS a case of BMWs driving like the competition than it is the competition driving more like a BMW.
It doesn't matter if the higher prices are justified, if prices are higher, it could be driving away buyers.

I wouldn't take BFest anecdotes by new F30 owners to represent the overall car market, and whether BMWs still differentiate from the competition. Go to a Cadillac or Acura forum, it's full of the same types of comments from new owners.

When I drove the competition before buying my two BMWs, they lacked feel, were too soft, and weren't fun to drive enough to justify the high cost. So I think it's BMW moving toward the competition.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Hopefully BMW is able to correct the steering vibration issue. Have you noticed it on yours?
I've got a 2013, have no vibrations.

I thought I read this was a 2012 issue and a minor one (very few reported) at that.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
When I drove the competition before buying my two BMWs, they lacked feel, were too soft, and weren't fun to drive enough to justify the high cost. So I think it's BMW moving toward the competition.
Huh?? When did you buy your Bimmers?
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Huh?? When did you buy your Bimmers?
2000 and 2005.
The X Men commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
BMW didn't used to need excuses.
That is so true, in the old days, when one look for a small sporty luxury sedan, the 3 series was it. Now a days, I am not so sure. The 3 series is still the benchmark, but it is not longer a sure thing. The competition, with the same options, has a cheaper MSRP and unless you are an enthusiast, you cannot tell the difference between the way a F30 drives compare to the competition. So what does that leave BMW with? a hand full of auto enthusiast and the rest are buying the car for the badge.
beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That is so true, in the old days, when one look for a small sporty luxury sedan, the 3 series was it. Now a days, I am not so sure. The 3 series is still the benchmark, but it is not longer a sure thing. The competition, with the same options, has a cheaper MSRP and unless you are an enthusiast, you cannot tell the difference between the way a F30 drives compare to the competition. So what does that leave BMW with? a hand full of auto enthusiast and the rest are buying the car for the badge.
So, nothing has changed then?
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That is so true, in the old days, when one look for a small sporty luxury sedan, the 3 series was it. Now a days, I am not so sure. The 3 series is still the benchmark, but it is not longer a sure thing. The competition, with the same options, has a cheaper MSRP and unless you are an enthusiast, you cannot tell the difference between the way a F30 drives compare to the competition. So what does that leave BMW with? a hand full of auto enthusiast and the rest are buying the car for the badge.
That's how it always is. Auto enthusiasts are such a small % of the overall population. If an auto enthusiast wants a entry level luxury sedan their options are very limited. Just because the new F30 isn't as "hardcore" as previous generations, it still is the leader of the pack for auto enthusiasts, like you mentioned, the benchmark. I am looking forward to driving a ATS(tho not the 2.0t, that has received some pretty negative reviews.)
es commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Since most buyers just walk into a dealership and buy a car off the lot, you'd have to compare typical price of cars on the lot. Dunno if that's higher though.

The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
This is very much true. I test drove one the other day and it felt like a toy with over-boosted steering wheel.
need4speed commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
You have got to be kidding. you actually test drove an F30?
Yes I have driven the F30. For me it is the same motor and tranny. Also it is more restrictive on how I can order it and it has that euro beek thing on the nose. All in all it is not nearly different enough from my e9x to make me want to run out and buy one. The same can't be said for the e46 to e90 changes. If you go back to the e36 to e46 redo you are in the same situation with BMW, but the rivals have come a very very long way since then. N4S
Lorenzzo commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
This thread seems similar to another thread we just had. We can probably start these threads using a Mad Libs game:

Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.

Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.

I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.

I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.

Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.

P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.

Nice. Also, I hear all the 3-s are really just $50,000 vibrators.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
Yes I have driven the F30. For me it is the same motor and tranny. Also it is more restrictive on how I can order it and it has that euro beek thing on the nose. All in all it is not nearly different enough from my e9x to make me want to run out and buy one. The same can't be said for the e46 to e90 changes. If you go back to the e36 to e46 redo you are in the same situation with BMW, but the rivals have come a very very long way since then. N4S
Why is it that everyone who didn't wait for the new bodystyle and got a 2011 instead feels like they need to come in here and take a sh-t on our cars? Aren't they treated like baller rock stars by the used car tweens in the E9X forum?

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That is so true, in the old days, when one look for a small sporty luxury sedan, the 3 series was it. Now a days, I am not so sure. The 3 series is still the benchmark, but it is not longer a sure thing. The competition, with the same options, has a cheaper MSRP and unless you are an enthusiast, you cannot tell the difference between the way a F30 drives compare to the competition. So what does that leave BMW with? a hand full of auto enthusiast and the rest are buying the car for the badge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
So, nothing has changed then?
Bingo!

There are no "enthusiasts" as far as BMW is concerned. And if there were, they've been taking it up the *** for 20 years, not going to stop, compromising themselves in the E90 and F30 which are the antithesis of smaller, tighter, sportier rides. BMW makes a series if accessories and derivative models for that small group, but the platform is a bigger, wider, luxurious, soft car.

It amazes me how far from reality some folks truly are. BMW hasn't forgotten you. You're just not the target audience and what that audience wants isn't an E46. It's an E39.

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Why is it that everyone who didn't wait for the new bodystyle and got a 2011 instead feels like they need to come in here and take a sh-t on our cars? Aren't they treated like baller rock stars by the used car tweens in the E9X forum?

BJ
Same people who will be driving an f30 soon. Can you imagine getting a 40k car months before the new body style comes out?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90

The local dealer has 18 2013 328Xi's on the lot. If the problem is really pent up demand of customers sitting around for months itching to buy a 328Xi, why so many cars sitting there?
Can't answer specifically, but the Lines make it a challenge for inventory management.

If those 18 cars are No-Line, Modern, or Sport, I'm not buying. Used to be that you wanted a Grey 328i and they'd show you 4 of them with varying options and usually you could come pretty close to save 10 weeks of delivery time. But varying trim levels, different story.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Same people who will be driving an f30 soon. Can you imagine getting a 40k car months before the new body style comes out?


BJ
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I am looking forward to driving a ATS(tho not the 2.0t, that has received some pretty negative reviews.)
See the post I just made in the "post E46" thread in the E46 forum.
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:00 pm

The numbers are what the numbers are. BMW 3 Series sales were down in a month where overall car sales were up. The question is whether this is an anomaly or is it the beginning of a long term trend. There is also the possibility that the previous period had unusually high sales figures and the figures we are seeing now are relatively normal. Unless you are looking at relatively long term data these figures don't really tell you much.

My gut feeling is that except for the possibility of sticker shock (and tturedraider had a thread that showed that 3 Series price has stayed constant when you adjust for inflation, and BJ is paying less for his lease on a more expensive car), whatever the perceived deficiencies in the F30 are relative to the E90 would probably not concern the majority of the buyers.

IMO, roundel or not, BMW would loose customers if the general public perceived that the quality of the new model was significantly reduced but that does not seem to be the case.


CA
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Same people who will be driving an f30 soon. Can you imagine getting a 40k car months before the new body style comes out?
Maybe they'd already seen the new model?

I paid $33k for my 2004 back in 2005, after I saw what the E90 was going to look like.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Why is it that everyone who didn't wait for the new bodystyle and got a 2011 instead feels like they need to come in here and take a sh-t on our cars? Aren't they treated like baller rock stars by the used car tweens in the E9X forum?

BJ
You need to let this go. It happens every seven years. This will continue for at least another year no matter how often or loudly you scream. It's probably going to get worse, 'cause now the E46-hangers-on are at a point they have to start considering a replacement.
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You need to let this go. It happens every seven years. This will continue for at least another year no matter how often or loudly you scream. It's probably going to get worse, 'cause now the E46-hangers-on are at a point they have to start considering a replacement.
IT could be worse, since nationally, more and more people are keeping cars longer.

My E36 when it was 8 years old felt kinda jiggly and tired. My E46 feels brand new. I think BMWs are holding up better than they used to.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
2000 and 2005.
The competition has made changes and advancements in the last seven years. Lexus has just recently publicly acknowledged they've gone too soft and are at this very moment changing direction to become more BMW-like. In those seven years Infiniti made a decision to abandon FWD and focus on RWD in order to better compete with BMW.

btw - that last sentence reminded me of something. No one is changing their focus to AWD to better compete with Audi. In fact, no one is gunning for Audi or Mercedes. As we all agree competition is good. BMW has been dedicated to this sport sedan thing longer than anyone and done it better than anyone. Does anyone really think they'll make a fatal misstep now?
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bingo!

There are no "enthusiasts" as far as BMW is concerned. And if there were, they've been taking it up the *** for 20 years, not going to stop, compromising themselves in the E90 and F30 which are the antithesis of smaller, tighter, sportier rides. BMW makes a series if accessories and derivative models for that small group, but the platform is a bigger, wider, luxurious, soft car.

It amazes me how far from reality some folks truly are. BMW hasn't forgotten you. You're just not the target audience and what that audience wants isn't an E46. It's an E39.

BJ
There absolutely are enthusiast as far as BMW is concerned. They are very aware of that market, understand that that is the demographic that built the brand and they are very concerned with loosing them.

That being said BMW realizes that that market is interested in performance but also expects a certain amount of creature comforts and luxury features. The issue that I had with my 335i with the stock suspension and the RFTs was that it was a Sports/Luxury car that had serious deficiencies in both categories,

As I have stated here numerous times a good handling car does not have to have a rock hard suspension that shakes the fillings out of your teeth and damages the car when a poor surface is encountered.

If BMW goes too far in either direction (not enough performance in the name of comfort or not enough comfort in name of performance) they are going to loose sales. It is a delicate balance and the brand that pulls it off the best will sell very well.

CA
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The competition has made changes and advancements in the last seven years. Lexus has just recently publicly acknowledged they've gone too soft and are at this very moment changing direction to become more BMW-like.
It's all marketing BS as far as I'm concerned.

Lexus had the IS300 back then, it's way more sporty and BMW-like than today's IS350. It didn't sell.

Cadillac says it's targeting the E46. Give me a break.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
IT could be worse, since nationally, more and more people are keeping cars longer.

My E36 when it was 8 years old felt kinda jiggly and tired. My E46 feels brand new. I think BMWs are holding up better than they used to.
I've been looking at your threads and posts. You have a very low mileage E46.

The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The competition has made changes and advancements in the last seven years. Lexus has just recently publicly acknowledged they've gone too soft and are at this very moment changing direction to become more BMW-like.
That is absolutely true. A while back I had lunch with the Lexus New York Area Technical Support/Service Support Manager. He was driving an LFA and is an avid vintage racer. He told me that Lexus is very aware that their image had deteriorated and that are not being perceived as a car that appeals to people who enjoy driving. Lexus is aware that this is hurting sales and they are orking to release models that will change that perception.

CA
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I've been looking at your threads and posts. You have a very low mileage E46.

The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (if I like them). I kept my Lexus SC300 from 1992 to 2007 (and put 120,000 milles on it) and then shopped for and bought a BMW when I was in the new car market.
CA
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I've been looking at your threads and posts. You have a very low mileage E46.

The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
It's got 92k miles, not that low. Of course I haven't track it like the E36 so that could be why it feels fresher.

I'm sure that's part of it (hard economic times) but I also read that modern cars are a lot more reliable than in the past.

It just seems to me like 3 series sales should be going up, not down. Hard to believe it's all just due to inventory issues.
Chris90 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
That is absolutely true. A while back I had lunch with the Lexus New York Area Technical Support/Service Support Manager. He was driving an LFA and is an avid vintage racer. He told me that Lexus is very aware that their image had deteriorated and that are not being perceived as a car that appeals to people who enjoy driving. Lexus is aware that this is hurting sales and they are orking to release models that will change that perception.

CA
That's all talk until we see something in the flesh. A $300,000 supercar doesn't count. The IS-F was a decent start though.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
There absolutely are enthusiast as far as BMW is concerned. They are very aware of that market, understand that that is the demographic that built the brand and they are very concerned with loosing them.

That being said BMW realizes that that market is interested in performance but also expects a certain amount of creature comforts and luxury features. The issue that I had with my 335i with the stock suspension and the RFTs was that it was a Sports/Luxury car that had serious deficiencies in both categories,

As I have stated here numerous times a good handling car does not have to have a rock hard suspension that shakes the fillings out of your teeth and damages the car when a poor surface is encountered.

If BMW goes too far in either direction (not enough performance in the name of comfort or not enough comfort in name of performance) they are going to loose sales. It is a delicate balance and the brand that pulls it off the best will sell very well.

CA
Thank you for this post.

I do want to point out your 335i sport package model is the most heavy-ass E9x 3er there is and exceedingly few complained as vehemently as you have. I have a sport package E90 and I am perfectly happy with its suspension. In fact, as a result of my experience attending my first BMW driving event for the introduction of the E90, the superior driving dynamics are exactly why I bought my '06 E90 330i, RFTs and all.
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
That's all talk until we see something in the flesh. A $300,000 supercar doesn't count. The IS-F was a decent start though.
True, but it does appear that Lexus is aware that going too soft has hurt sales and they have also demonstated that they have the engineering resources to do something about it.

Only time will tell.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You need to let this go. It happens every seven years. This will continue for at least another year no matter how often or loudly you scream. It's probably going to get worse, 'cause now the E46-hangers-on are at a point they have to start considering a replacement.
I see your point but question why they choose to come here to make their positions known. Plenty of opportunity for F30 hate threads over in the E46 and E90 forums. Granted all the adults are here now, but that doesn't mean the negativity and put-downs are appropriate.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Thank you for this post.

I do want to point out your 335i sport package model is the most heavy-ass E9x 3er there is and exceedingly few complained as vehemently as you have. I have a sport package E90 and I am perfectly happy with its suspension. In fact, as a result of my experience attending my first BMW driving event for the introduction of the E90, the superior driving dynamics are exactly why I bought my '06 E90 330i, RFTs and all.
Those are exactly the same reasons that I bought my 335i. Drove it against the competition and liked the way it drove. Bought one and still liked the way it drove. Then I moved it from Palm Beach to NYC. I hung on to it because I felt I could rectify the things I didn't like and did not want to give up the things I did like and was eventually able to accomplish exacly that.

CA
vs123 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:42 pm

In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.

Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (if I like them). I kept my Lexus SC300 from 1992 to 2007 (and put 120,000 milles on it) and then shopped for and bought a BMW when I was in the new car market.
CA
Me, too. But we are the exception. 120,000 miles in 15 years. 8,000 miles per year. That also makes it easier to keep a car longterm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
It's got 92k miles, not that low. Of course I haven't track it like the E36 so that could be why it feels fresher.

I'm sure that's part of it (hard economic times) but I also read that modern cars are a lot more reliable than in the past.

It just seems to me like 3 series sales should be going up, not down. Hard to believe it's all just due to inventory issues.
92,000 is fairly low for a 2004 model. It was low mileage when you bought it. Looks like you've done a little over 11k per year.

Did you see my post about X3 series sales this year v last year. F30 sales have barely begun.
beden1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vs123 View Post
In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.

Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
Blame the sales downturn on the Jersey Shore cast members who drive 3 Series BMWs. Nobody wants to be associated with those characters.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 5:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vs123 View Post
In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.

Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
Are you aware of the average age of those who buy a new 3 Series? Nowhere near "fresh grad" age. And I'll say it one more time. Unless you choose to buy all the new latest and greatest technology options that are now available on the F30, the F30 is no more expensive than a fully loaded E90 was.

The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Are you aware of the average age of those who buy a new 3 Series? Nowhere near "fresh grad" age. And I'll say it one more time. Unless you choose to buy all the new latest and greatest technology options that are now available on the F30, the F30 is no more expensive than a fully loaded E90 was.

The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
I think the last "Fresh Grad" BMW may have been the 2002.
At this point in time the "enthusiast" market has aged. The Baby Boomers who were buying BMW 1600s and 2002s, and Camaro Z28s and Boss 302 Mustangs 40 years ago may be looking for something a bit more luxurious and comfortable but for the most part someone who owned a Z28 or a Boss 302 in 1969 is not interested in the 2012 version of a 1962 Coupe de Ville or Lincoln Continental. I attend a lot of automobile related events including track days, concours, car club meets, etc. and for the most part it is not a younger crowd.
dtc100 commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Are you aware of the average age of those who buy a new 3 Series? Nowhere near "fresh grad" age. And I'll say it one more time. Unless you choose to buy all the new latest and greatest technology options that are now available on the F30, the F30 is no more expensive than a fully loaded E90 was.

The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
Arguing that the F30 is cheaper than E90 is meaningless, if the F30 is still much more expensive than the competitions. Take a look at how much one can lease a G37.

The X3 increase is not indictive of sales in this segment. Light crossover sales are all the rage now. As an example, the GLK350 outsold the X3 by a good margin last month,
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Arguing that the F30 is cheaper than E90 is meaningless, if the F30 is still much more expensive than the competitions. Take a look at how much one can lease a G37.
I believe the point is that the fact that 3 Series sales are down because of a price increase is not valid because when adjusted for inflation the price has in fact essentially remained the same. So if the F30 is more expensive than the competition then so was the E90.

CA
dtc100 commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I believe the point is that the fact that 3 Series sales are down because of a price increase is not valid because when adjusted for inflation the price has in fact essentially remained the same. So if the F30 is more expensive than the competition then so was the E90.

CA
Unless the competitions have gotten a lot cheaper, or many today do not think the 3 series should command such a higher cost than it used to.
The X Men commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Are you aware of the average age of those who buy a new 3 Series? Nowhere near "fresh grad" age. And I'll say it one more time. Unless you choose to buy all the new latest and greatest technology options that are now available on the F30, the F30 is no more expensive than a fully loaded E90 was.

The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
MSRP is a bit different than what one can actually buy the car for. My wife was shopping for a car about 8 months ago, we test both the E90 and the F30. Similarly equipped, the F30 cost about $8000 more when all is said and done.

I am not a statistician, but if one look at the current trend, it sure looks like the 3 series is losing market share and will continue to do so unless some changes are made by BMW or the competition. Almost all newly redesign cars enjoy a upward trend in sales numbers, some times as high as a few hundres percent compare in a year ago. I think price certianly have something to do with the sales down trend, price is always a factor.
tturedraider commented:
October 3, 2012, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
MSRP is a bit different than what one can actually buy the car for. My wife was shopping for a car about 8 months ago, we test both the E90 and the F30. Similarly equipped, the F30 cost about $8000 more when all is said and done.

I am not a statistician, but if one look at the current trend, it sure looks like the 3 series is losing market share and will continue to do so unless some changes are made by BMW or the competition. Almost all newly redesign cars enjoy a upward trend in sales numbers, some times as high as a few hundres percent compare in a year ago. I think price certianly have something to do with the sales down trend, price is always a factor.
You're comparing a brand new model to an outgoing model with heavy manufacturer incentive support.

You're perfectly entitled to think what you'd like about the sales numbers. I doubt BMW cares one iota what anyone here speculates about their sales numbers. This thread has gone way too long and I've contributed to that way too much. I'm out.
Metalusmc commented:
October 3, 2012, 7:25 pm

There are more factors that many are not considering. The competition, not just Audi or Mercedes but Toyota, Honda, Nissan,etc have better cars that are just as capable and have standard equipment that BMW considers options. options such as heated seats, ALARM, and Bluetooth streaming. I understand this is not a budget car but many co workers prefer to buy cheap car who have those luxury options vice BMWs. the other brands are offering a better value and equal driving experience.
dtc100 commented:
October 3, 2012, 7:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You're comparing a brand new model to an outgoing model with heavy manufacturer incentive support.
A reasonable response, ultimately it is still BMW against MB, Audi or Infiniti..., not F30 vs. E90.

Quote:
You're perfectly entitled to think what you'd like about the sales numbers. I doubt BMW cares one iota what anyone here speculates about their sales numbers. This thread has gone way too long and I've contributed to that way too much. I'm out.
Pointless.
enigma commented:
October 3, 2012, 7:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not enough F30 inventory. Check.

Not enough XDrive models. Check.

Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.

A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.

Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.

E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.

BJ
Over-zealous and over-defensive F30 owners? Check.

Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.

Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.
Mykatie commented:
October 3, 2012, 9:01 pm

All I am hearing here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 9:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vs123 View Post
In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.

Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post

I think the last "Fresh Grad" BMW may have been the 2002.

At this point in time the "enthusiast" market has aged. The Baby Boomers who were buying BMW 1600s and 2002s, and Camaro Z28s and Boss 302 Mustangs 40 years ago may be looking for something a bit more luxurious and comfortable but for the most part someone who owned a Z28 or a Boss 302 in 1969 is not interested in the 2012 version of a 1962 Coupe de Ville or Lincoln Continental. I attend a lot of automobile related events including track days, concours, car club meets, etc. and for the most part it is not a younger crowd.
That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 9:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.

That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

BJ
The oldest boomers have not yet hit 70 but some are getting close.

CA
captainaudio commented:
October 3, 2012, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.



That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.

BJ
I don't really agree because in a sense sportscars aren't intended to be sportscars anymore either, at least in terms of the classic definition of a sports car. The days of a car that was driven to work Monday through Friday and taken to the race track (and won races) on Saturday are long gone.

Look at the cars that Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche or any of the companies (that are still around) and were the traditional makers of sports cars are making today. All of these cars have become much more refined, and much more comfortable. These cars have climate control systems, navigation systems, power windows and seats, power steering and brakes, etc.

Times change. I don't think that drivers who are interested in performance cars are looking for "softer" cars. They just realize that they no longer have to make the compromises in comfort and day to day drivability that they had to make in the past.








CA
dtc100 commented:
October 3, 2012, 9:52 pm

I think as long as BMW continues to call the 3 series the ultimate driving machine, it is fair to argue whether the new 3 has lost some driving dynamics or not, or whether the competitions have matched or passed it in driving dynamics.

As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.
tsoc88 commented:
October 3, 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Over-zealous and over-defensive F30 owners? Check.

Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.

Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.
BMW didn't make enough product? Check
BMW blew it on the "lines"? Check
BMW lack of advertising for F30? Check
Conversation in Muniich = "We're intoducing the most important model for our company.
Let's short the product, do little advertising, screw up the options. You know those American enthusiasts, they'll still buy it!" Munich blew it along with BMW USA.

The life cycle on E92 and e93 is insignicant to the sales rate. The real issue is a brand new model can't beat the end of life cycle numbers and that is something BMW should be very very concerned about.
justinnum1 commented:
October 3, 2012, 10:18 pm

anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I think as long as BMW continues to call the 3 series the ultimate driving machine, it is fair to argue whether the new 3 has lost some driving dynamics or not, or whether the competitions have matched or passed it in driving dynamics.

As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.
To the average 3 Series owner "driving" is defined as "getting back to forth from work, taking the kids to school, taking a weekend trip". To the average 3 Series owner "driving" is not defined as "drive aggressively on public streets to get a 10 second thrill on a windy back road".

I don't want to have these discussions censored, ultimately that's what we're here for. It's a discussion forum, not a fanclub. Just seems that every week another thread is started as one thing disguised as another. "Cadillac ATS" and "This Month's Sales Results" become code for yet another "The F30 Is Too Big, Make An E46, You Suck BMW" thread. E90 and E46 owners attack the F30, F30 owners defend the F30, everyone gets upset, not really necessary to replay that 52 times a year as it's not going to change anything.

Go to the E90 forum and create a thread called "The F30 Sucks, So What's Our Next Move After Our E90's Have To Go?" and all we F30 owners will race over there and contribute so you get some adult feedback amidst the high school rhetoric. That work for you?

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 3, 2012, 11:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?
While looking for the answer to your question, I came across this thread from May 2006 with E46 owners giving their first impressions on the E90. Might as well have been a thread from yesterday on the E90 vs. F30. An example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin 06-02-2006, 05:04 AM
Hi, all,

It's been some time since I last posted, but the ongoing E90 better/worse than E46 debate really captures my fancy.

Drawbacks of the new models are, however, too many for it to make it an unqualified success. Please bear with me if this sounds repetitious either because earlier posters have already brought them up or because I've posted these opinions before:

a) Dash is plain ugly. This could be subjective, but I still do not warm to the plank straight, minimalist look of the new design w/o i-Drive, while the twin cowl version with i-Drive is shades worse.

b) Unergonomic details - stop/start button with cartridge key, electronic turn signals, obscured cruise control, fiddly i-Drive, rear seat that has less headroom and outer edges that are so uncomfortably hard that the added width and leg/knee room are wasted, boot access still as bad as ever, particularly so if the optional computer tray is ordered.

c) Not driver/passenger focused - no temperature gauge but a pointmess vacuum gauge, no dipstick, poor ergonomics (as above), flimsy cup holders, courtesy light goes out the minute you slip the cartridge key into its slot so you cannot belt up and do any adjustments while there is light.

d) Deterioration of cabin plastic quality - door trims feel especially hard after the E46.

e) Styling not to everyone's taste - to me the E90 has presence only because it is UGLY!

f) The car feels limp and flaccid in tight, urban situations, unlike the E46, which was more easily manoeuvred and did not feel at all out of its depth on backroad blasts.

Compared to the E90, the E46 may be more cramped in the back, less refined on the move and not as sharp in handling, but for me (and I guess many on this forum), a much better balance of qualities and attributes.

I suspect that the E90 sells more on its image and brand desirability than on pure merit/talent, even though it is hardly the class dunce. Some would say this was already so of the E46, but at least the old model was not so compromised and diluted to appeal to the masses. It appealed to those who put driving pleasure ahead of all other considerations and could deliver without adopting useless gimmicks.

Colin
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=149364

BJ
beden1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
While looking for the answer to your question, I came across this thread from May 2006 with E46 owners giving their first impressions on the E90. Might as well have been a thread from yesterday on the E90 vs. F30. An example:

BJ
What ever happened to Colin? I wonder if he is now driving a Cadillac?

Never mind, I see he listed his car as an '02 330d T M Sport Auto. I bet he's still driving it.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:15 am

BJ your fatal mistake is, you think these threads are attack of E90 drivers against F30, when in fact for the most part, they are discussions about F30 against its competitors, not E90.

You hold on to this straw dog that for the most part does not exist. The recent sales reports do not have the E90 in them, the comparison tests by various mags also did not look at E90.

You need to understand BMW drivers are not two year olds, just because you don't like the discussions, does not mean people will start to discuss the F30 in the E90 forums.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?
Okay, got ahold of the BMW investor reports from back around the time of the E90 transition, below is the relevant information.

Summarized, BMW had a staggered launch of the E90 where it was available in Europe prior to the US by a period of 3 months and they used to break out Sedan vs. other styles which they don't do anymore, so the data is a bit dicey to interpret. Big picture, the E90 saw dips in sales vs. the E46 for the first 6-12 months of its life. The Coupes and Convertibles particularly were hit hard once the Sedan launched. For the first three periods BMW reported the E90 on which are somewhat congruent to the first two periods BMW reported the F30 on, the E90 dipped 3 Series sales (19%) and (11%) then (3%) below E46 levels.

2005 Quarterly Report (June 2005) E90 is 1 month old (worldwide):

The new model of the BMW 3 Series Sedan
has been particularly well received on the market.
Since market introduction in March 2005 (Europe),
April 2005 (Asia) and May 2005 (USA), 69,385 units
had been sold to customers by the end of June –
more than a third of the total unit sales of the
BMW 3 Series during the period. Including sales of
the predecessor model, 127,951 units of the BMW 3
Series Sedan were sold during the first half of 2005,
6.1% more than in the corresponding period last
year. As expected, the sales volume of the BMW 3
Series has fallen in connection with the model
change; 195,693 units were sold during the first
half of 2005, (19.1)% fewer than in the corresponding
period last year.

The new BMW 3 Series Touring model will be
introduced onto the markets from September 2005
onwards. 27,465 units (–33.4%) of the present
model were sold during the first half of 2005.
In addition, 17,642 (– 45.5%) BMW 3 Series
Coupé and 17,900 (–28.7%) BMW 3 Series Convertible
were delivered to customers
between January
and June 2005.

2005 Quarterly Report (September 2005) E90 is 5 months old:

The sales volume of the BMW 3 Series declined
overall as a result of the model change. 311,324 units
were sold in the period from January to September
2005 (–10.9 %)
. The first new 3 Series model is
the BMW 3 Series Sedan, which was introduced
onto the market in March 2005; 148,818 units had
already been delivered to customers by the end
of September 2005. For the nine-month period,
the sales volume of the BMW 3 Series Sedan and
its predecessor model totalled 215,032 units, an
increase of 20.4% compared to the previous year.
Favourable customer acceptance of the new BMW
3 Series Sedan is also reflected in the sales volume
figures for this model in the third quarter 2005:
87,078 units were delivered to customers, 50.0%
more than in the same quarter last year. The new
BMW 3 SeriesTouring came onto the market in September
2005. The total sales volume of the BMW
3 Series Touring in the first three quarters of 2005
was 39,329 units (–33.7%)
. In the same period,
25,425 units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé (–45.3%)
and 25,987 units of the BMW 3 Series Convertible
(–22.3%)
were sold

2005 Annual Report (Dec 2005) E90 is 8 months old:

Despite the BMW 3 Series Sedan model change,
the BMW 3 Series remains the world's best-selling
model series in the segment for premium middle
class cars; 434,342 units of the BMW 3 Series were
delivered to customers in 2005 (– 3.4%)
. The new
BMW 3 Series Sedan is the best-selling car of the
BMW Group: having sold 229,932 units since its market
launch in March 2005, it accounted for 17.3%
of the total sales volume of the BMW Group in 2005.

2006 First Quarter Report (March 2006) E90 is 10 months old:

122,691 BMW 3 Series vehicles were delivered
to customers worldwide in the period from January
to March 2006, 54.3% more than in the previous
year.
This strong growth was attributable to particularly
strong demand for the BMW 3 Series Sedan
and for the BMW 3 Series Touring following the
model change. Both models were introduced to the
markets during the course of 2005 and are now
available to customers worldwide. 84,739 BMW 3
Series Sedans (+88.2%) and 26,096 BMW 3 Series
Touring cars (+72.2%) were sold during the first
quarter 2006, of which 954 and 943 respectively
were predecessor models. During the same period,
5,785 BMW 3 Series Coupés (–33.4%) and 5,951
BMW 3 Series Convertibles (–19.4%) were delivered
to customers.


2006 Second Quarter Report (June 2006) E90 is 13 months old:

In April, international automotive journalists
voted the BMW 3 Series as the "World Car of the
Year". The popularity of the 3 Series is also reflected
in the sales volume achieved: 254,338 units were
sold during the six-month period, giving a particularly
strong growth rate of 30.0%.
More than
400,000 units of the BMW 3 Series Sedan have been
delivered to customers since the model change in
spring 2005. The sales volume for the first half of
2006 was 175,141 units, 36.9% more than one year
earlier. During the same period, 53,728 BMW 3
Series Touring (introduced in September 2005) were
handed over to customers, representing a 95.6%
increase over the previous year. The sales volume
figures for the BMW 3 Series Coupé and of the
BMW 3 Series Convertible were lower than in the
previous year as a result of life-cycle factors. 11,401
units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé were sold, (35.4)%
fewer than in the same period last year. The BMW 3
Series Coupé model change will take place in September
2006. With 13,838 units sold, the sales volume
of the BMW 3 Series Convertible was (22.7)%
lower than one year earlier


=========================================

2012 Quarterly Report (March 2012) F30 is 1 month old:

The BMW 3 Series also performed well,
with the market launch of the new Sedan in February
(+ 13.6 %) already having a positive impact
. In total,
91,189 units of the BMW 3 Series were handed over to
customers during the quarter under report (+ 3.9 %)
.

2012 Quarterly Report (June 2012) F30 is 4 months old:

Sales of the BMW 3 Series,
at 193,989 units, were slightly up on the previous year
(+ 0.6 %)
. The four-wheel-drive system (xDrive) for the
Sedan as well as the launches of the new Touring and extended
wheelbase version for China will also revitalise
demand in the second half of the year.

Source:

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....sbericht.shtml

BJ
tturedraider commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:03 am

^^ Do you mean to say the BMW sky is not, in fact, falling? Can it be?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
^^ Do you mean to say the BMW sky is not, in fact, falling? Can it be?
Big picture, it certainly looks like history is repeating itself.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:28 am

The above sources indicated in 2005 during the E90 launch, except the first month or two (when the E46 and E90 were sold together), the 3 series was up by 20% to 54%.

In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.

Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.

We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.
mr_clueless commented:
October 4, 2012, 2:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I agree, E92 and E93 are at the end of their design cycle, but so are the competitions. I also did not include the sales numbers for the Audi A5, which is technically a A4 coupe. The A5 's sales numbers went up 25.6% last month compare to Sep 2011 and year to date compare to last year went up 10.9%. What is this shortage that everyone is talking about, there are plenty of F30 in dealer lots here in the Northeast. My guess is that F30 sales might be better in a year or two, but thats not due to stock or full line, it will be due to pricing structure. Unfortunately, both the A4 and the C class are due for redesign for the MY 2014 and the 3 series will have stiffer competition.
The A4 just had an LCI for 2013. The C also saw some minor updates. Are you sure they will be redesigned for 2014?
SD330i commented:
October 4, 2012, 3:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Big picture, it certainly looks like history is repeating itself.

BJ
BJ, good points ! Especially from the E46 owner , and the sales figures from 2005 and 2006. Our first BMW was a new 2006 loaded 330i which we did a 3 year lease in March of 2006. The reason we came over to BMW was the Susan G Komen test Drives BMW did in the Summer of 2005. We had 2003 Acura TLs which was coming up for its 3 year lease in March. The Test drive compared the new 330i to the Audi and the Lexus. We were sold , and the rest is History. Of course , we then leased the 2009 335i and now we will be getting the new F30 335i Sport Line Soon in a PCD set up . We loved each of our BMWs , and can not wait to jump into our new One Soon. As the 3 year leases come due over the next few years , this model will do as well as the previous ones. Like you, our third one in Six years.

ng
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The above sources indicated in 2005 during the E90 launch, except the first month or two (when the E46 and E90 were sold together), the 3 series was up by 20% to 54%.

In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.

Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.

We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.
How is the competition more fierce now than then? That's a total fabrication. The 3 series, A4 and C series were positioned just as they were back then. In fact in 2002 when I leased an A4 I really wanted a 3 series but the Audi lease at that time worked out better for me. Now we have the ATS but it's effect on 3 series sales has not yet been felt.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
How is the competition more fierce now than then? That's a total fabrication. The 3 series, A4 and C series were positioned just as they were back then. In fact in 2002 when I leased an A4 I really wanted a 3 series but the Audi lease at that time worked out better for me. Now we have the ATS but it's effect on 3 series sales has not yet been felt.
How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?

If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.

For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge within this segment.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
The A4 just had an LCI for 2013. The C also saw some minor updates. Are you sure they will be redesigned for 2014?
Yes for both. The competition are more active in refreshing their models within the design cycles.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?

If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.

For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge in this segment.
I pay $160 a month to the guy who cuts my lawn. No way anyone is putting themselves in a step-down semi-luxury car like an Infiniti for a measly $150.

The proper way to look at this is that a $500 a month lease is the expectation for a luxury car in this segment. Any brand offering something similar for $350 isn't offering a true luxury car. Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, not in the same league as a BMW, silly to keep bringing them up.

BJ
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?

If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.

For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge within this segment.
If I had the choice at this time between paying $150.00 more for an F30 or getting a G37, I'd get a VW CC 2.0T. The G37 was a great car in it's time but is at the end of it's life and sucks gas like a pig not to mention the dated interior.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I pay $160 a month to the guy who cuts my lawn. No way anyone is putting themselves in a step-down semi-luxury car like an Infiniti for a measly $150.

The proper way to look at this is that a $500 a month lease is the expectation for a luxury car in this segment. Any brand offering something similar for $350 isn't offering a true luxury car. Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, not in the same league as a BMW, silly to keep bringing them up.

BJ
The silly part is you have probably overpaid your gardener.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
If I had the choice at this time between paying $150.00 more for an F30 or getting a G37, I'd get a VW CC 2.0T. The G37 was a great car in it's time but is at the end of it's life and sucks gas like a pig not to mention the dated interior.
For the same payment, I think most people would pick G over CC.
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
For the same payment, I think most people would pick G over CC.
Probably but we are not most people on this site.The G37 was a car I considered when I leased my first E90 in 2007. It wasn't what I wanted in a car then and certainly isn't now. With gas at $4.00/gallon it's hard to justify the poor mileage of the G37 to start. The CC is much more of what I want in a car and it doesn't hurt that it's gorgeous. Way better looking than the 328, A4 or C series. No it's not in the same class but it's a lot of car for the money if you stick with the 2.0. The major drawback is the FWD,
The X Men commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?
That’s a good question, Let’s try to look back at the same time period when the 3 series was last redesign as compare to the current redesign, about one year into its redesign, which would be around Sep 2007:

The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.

Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
johnc_22 commented:
October 4, 2012, 10:05 am

I think there are a lot of factors at play:
- competition
- pricing
- gloom and doom talk about the economy
- housing downturn (people who might have stretched for a premium vehicle won't now)

For me I still love my E90 and am awaiting the new 1 or 2 series offering since I want something smaller. If I had to buy today it would probably be an A3.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That’s a good question, Let’s try to look back at the same time period when the 3 series was last redesign as compare to the current redesign, about one year into its redesign, which would be around Sep 2007:

The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.

Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
That's not the right time comparison. The F30 is only 6 months old.

Additionally, the US release of the E90 was delayed 3 months from the European launch and XDrive was available from the start. There was no apparent dumping of E46 loaners either. Just too many variables to find the easy smoking gun here.

If we're looking for commonalities, during both the E90 and F30 transitions, in the first 9-12 months the 3 Series had three consecutive quarters of sales drop with two of them in double digits, the Coupe/Vert/Wagon nosediving badly in anticipation of a new bodystyle.

The alarms can sound with the March 2013 quarterly report as that will show the complete first year of F30 sales and the first six months of XDrive models.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That’s a good question, Let’s try to look back at the same time period when the 3 series was last redesign as compare to the current redesign, about one year into its redesign, which would be around Sep 2007:

The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.

Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
You're off by a year. The E90 started as a 2006 model in March 2005.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You're off by a year. The E90 started as a 2006 model in March 2005.
The market shares among the top brands in this segment are still valid. It underscores the more stiff competition the 3 series faces. The question is, whether shifting the focus of the 3 more to the luxury and comfort side can better compete with the other brands.
voip-ninja commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yes for both. The competition are more active in refreshing their models within the design cycles.
I didn't think that an all new A4 was due out till late 2014.
The X Men commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You're off by a year. The E90 started as a 2006 model in March 2005.
Its was kind of a early model year so I rounded it off, but lets take a look at the SEP 2006 YTD sales numbers: 3 series, Sep 2006 YTD 87399 units, Infiniti G, 43542, C class, 36771 and the A4, 33966. BMW had a 43% market share at that time. Pretty similar to the 2007 numbers, it just goes to show you that BMW had a much stronger hold on the small sport luxury car market back then.
vs123 commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:58 pm

The F30 is clearly the most fun to drive in the category. My ranking:
328
G37
A4
C
But it should not be counted in the luxury category since the interior is really cheap looking (even with the luxury line trim).

From a fun to drive aspect, the F30 was the only car that instantly brought a smile. The g37 is almost as good but too much road/engine noise inside and that would bother me after awhile.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vs123 View Post
The F30 is clearly the most fun to drive in the category. My ranking:
328
G37
A4
C
But it should not be counted in the luxury category since the interior is really cheap looking (even with the luxury line trim).

From a fun to drive aspect, the F30 was the only car that instantly brought a smile. The g37 is almost as good but too much road/engine noise inside and that would bother me after awhile.
This was the exact same assessment I made back in 2010. Earlier this year I drove several F30's. I agree the new 3 is still ahead, but has become softer.

Now I had driven an ATS, I can say it is more fun than F30. The ATS has several misses of its own, so I say they both are equal, and above the rest.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Its was kind of a early model year so I rounded it off, but lets take a look at the SEP 2006 YTD sales numbers: 3 series, Sep 2006 YTD 87399 units, Infiniti G, 43542, C class, 36771 and the A4, 33966. BMW had a 43% market share at that time. Pretty similar to the 2007 numbers, it just goes to show you that BMW had a much stronger hold on the small sport luxury car market back then.
No doubt, but it's Mercedes Benz that turned the tide, not any of those off-brands.

They woke up, invested effort in making the C a non-boring and aesthetically hot looking car, and took away E90 sales. I don't look at that as a BMW failure; I look at that as MB waking up from a coma and washing the stupid off its face. BMW stole MB sales for a decade, they woke up, took it back. Nothing BMW can do about a competitor deciding to not be stupid anymore.

As relates to the F30, it's now the hot new car with the C getting long in the tooth and overexposed. Luxury status-symbols for the $100K crowd are always influenced by style, technology, and newness, and where MB won on comfort, that's been addressed too.

Any non-niche-enthusiast whose driven an F30 knows its a remarkable car, a quantum leap ahead of the E90, a big distance ahead of the C, certainly the best 3 Series ever. Since that group represents 95% of the buyers in that segment, there is no issue here.

BJ
vs123 commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:27 pm

The 2014 Mercedes CLA promises to add a little competition to the segment...
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 1:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
As relates to the F30, it's now the hot new car with the C getting long in the tooth and overexposed...

BJ
The C Class has really shown some strength in sales in the last two months, out-selling the new 3. Maybe it is not so long in the tooth and overexposed. Frankly I was surprised how strong the C has been lately.

However to say there is really nothing BMW could do?
captainaudio commented:
October 4, 2012, 2:15 pm

Based on the numbers posted by X Men it appears that for the time peiods cited the market grew slightly and the 3 Series lost sales and market share to Audi and Mercedes who both showed significant gains while Infiniti was relatively stagnant, and in fact was down slightly,

Chris90 commented:
October 4, 2012, 2:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vs123 View Post
The F30 is clearly the most fun to drive in the category. My ranking:
328
G37
A4
C
Interesting. From my 2000 test drives:

328i
Lexus IS300
A4
C

But ended up buying a '95 325i, which was even more fun when I test drove it.

don't remember driving any Nissan products.
The X Men commented:
October 4, 2012, 2:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Based on the numbers posted by X Men it appears that for the time peiods cited the market grew slightly and the 3 Series lost sales and market share to Audi and Mercedes who both showed significan gains while Infiniti was relatively stagnant, and in fact was down slightly,
captainaudio, thanks for posting those charts, a picture is worth a thousand words. If we took the Infiniti G out of the equation, it sure looks like what the 3 series lost in market share was gained by the C class and the A4.
jlukja commented:
October 4, 2012, 3:32 pm

Is it possible that, after 5 pages and 118 posts, we've finally arrived at the answer to the original question in this thread?
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 3:58 pm

The above only compared 4 models, the Lexus IS was not included. The Acura TL is also in this segment. Believe it or not, Buick Verano has done very well as a new entry, moving 4k to 5k units in the last months. Although not entirely a direct competitor, I think it had easily grabbed some market share from every entry above.
ChrisF01 commented:
October 4, 2012, 4:05 pm

My neighbor across the street who had a E46 330i, had gotten into an accident and totaled it. He came home with a brand new Infiniti G Sedan (non S).

I asked him why he jumped ship from BMW, he's the type that did all his own maintenance. He said they're too pricey for him, just thought I'd share since it seemed relevant to this thread...

I've seen the other threads about pricing historically being similar, yada yada yada. But truth be told, the car just came out, and a lot of the new ones on the lot are loaded up way above 45k+ range.

Chris
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The above only compared 4 models, the Lexus IS was not included. The Acura TL is also in this segment. Believe it or not, Buick Verano has done very well as a new entry, moving 4k to 5k units in the last months. Although not entirely a direct competitor, I think it had easily grabbed some market share from every entry above.
I very seriously doubt the Buick Verano a FWD version of the Chevy Cruse is stealing sales from the German sport sedans? And while the TL is in the same price range it's no more a competitor to these cars than the Buick Regal. It may attract a few in this price range but it's in no way a direct competitor to the 3 series and it's ilk.
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 4:21 pm

Considering most people lease, i was quoted 615 for an audi a4 and my 328 is currently 570. both same price no money down.

I was looking at the c350 about 5 years ago and they quoted me 795. i laughed all the way out the dealer lol.

Will be interesting to see what the real lease on a nicely equipped ats is.
vs123 commented:
October 4, 2012, 4:36 pm

On a 2-yr basis, the relative winners are the ES and C while the losers are the G and 3-series.

Relative share
Sep10 Sep12 Diff. Model
12% 18% 6% ES
16% 22% 5% C
8% 9% 1% TL
8% 8% 1% A4
8% 6% -1% IS
14% 10% -4% G
28% 21% -7% 3
captainaudio commented:
October 4, 2012, 5:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
captainaudio, thanks for posting those charts, a picture is worth a thousand words. If we took the Infiniti G out of the equation, it sure looks like what the 3 series lost in market share was gained by the C class and the A4.
The numbers are what they are although they are certainly open to interpretation as to whether they represent a trend or an anomaly or what they signify IMO longer term data is needed in order draw anu concludiond. I would like to see what the sales numbers look like at the end of the year.

CA
voip-ninja commented:
October 4, 2012, 5:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Probably but we are not most people on this site.The G37 was a car I considered when I leased my first E90 in 2007. It wasn't what I wanted in a car then and certainly isn't now. With gas at $4.00/gallon it's hard to justify the poor mileage of the G37 to start. The CC is much more of what I want in a car and it doesn't hurt that it's gorgeous. Way better looking than the 328, A4 or C series. No it's not in the same class but it's a lot of car for the money if you stick with the 2.0. The major drawback is the FWD,
Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 5:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
While I am not a fan of the '13 redesign(hence why I have an F30 now), my CC was the most universally appreciated sedan I have ever had. I had people ask me questions about it when it was first out and many said it was the most beautiful car for under $60k they had ever seen.

There was no real tq steer, especially compared to my Saab back ground.

My car with a $30k sticker was negotiated to $23,500, which was 4 cylinder Accord money. Leases were as low as $229 when the F30 was no lower than $359. You are talking about a 30% difference in price.

Residual value was not so bad as I purchased at $23,500 and sold for $14,500 with 53k to the first person who saw it(sold it stock, all mods shown in pics were sold separate).

Some pics of what I sold to get the F30:





Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 5:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Probably but we are not most people on this site.The G37 was a car I considered when I leased my first E90 in 2007. It wasn't what I wanted in a car then and certainly isn't now. With gas at $4.00/gallon it's hard to justify the poor mileage of the G37 to start. The CC is much more of what I want in a car and it doesn't hurt that it's gorgeous. Way better looking than the 328, A4 or C series. No it's not in the same class but it's a lot of car for the money if you stick with the 2.0. The major drawback is the FWD,
Talk to me first via PM before you go swooning too much over the CC.

If reliability had not been so bad, I would still have mine.
tturedraider commented:
October 4, 2012, 5:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Based on the numbers posted by X Men it appears that for the time peiods cited the market grew slightly and the 3 Series lost sales and market share to Audi and Mercedes who both showed significant gains while Infiniti was relatively stagnant, and in fact was down slightly,

In September 2007 the E90 3er had been on the market for 18 months, current C Class was in its first month on the market and the current A4 was still a year away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Interesting. From my 2000 test drives:

328i
Lexus IS300
A4
C

But ended up buying a '95 325i, which was even more fun when I test drove it.

don't remember driving any Nissan products.
From my recent drives at the BMW F30 Olympics driving event (street driving):

F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlukja View Post
Is it possible that, after 5 pages and 118 posts, we've finally arrived at the answer to the original question in this thread?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
My neighbor across the street who had a E46 330i, had gotten into an accident and totaled it. He came home with a brand new Infiniti G Sedan (non S).

I asked him why he jumped ship from BMW, he's the type that did all his own maintenance. He said they're too pricey for him, just thought I'd share since it seemed relevant to this thread...

I've seen the other threads about pricing historically being similar, yada yada yada. But truth be told, the car just came out, and a lot of the new ones on the lot are loaded up way above 45k+ range.

Chris
As soon as I read your first two sentences my thought was, "that was a money decision."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The above only compared 4 models, the Lexus IS was not included. The Acura TL is also in this segment. Believe it or not, Buick Verano has done very well as a new entry, moving 4k to 5k units in the last months. Although not entirely a direct competitor, I think it had easily grabbed some market share from every entry above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I very seriously doubt the Buick Verano a FWD version of the Chevy Cruse is stealing sales from the German sport sedans? And while the TL is in the same price range it's no more a competitor to these cars than the Buick Regal. It may attract a few in this price range but it's in no way a direct competitor to the 3 series and it's ilk.
For a good number of buyers in this segment for whom fwd is not an issue the TL is a competitor, just as the fwd A4 is. There are a few buyers in this segment who find the Verano a pleasing choice. The styling is good, the price is good, fwd is not an issue for them, they like being a part of Buick's new direction and GM's recovery.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 6:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The C Class has really shown some strength in sales in the last two months, out-selling the new 3. Maybe it is not so long in the tooth and overexposed. Frankly I was surprised how strong the C has been lately.

However to say there is really nothing BMW could do?
The last two months mean nothing as the F30 was not available in XDrive and inventory was weak across the board. Of course the C would outperform the 3 in those conditions.

There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.

It's a model transition, nothing more. When the whole 3 line is done in 2013/14 BMW will trump MB again until their redesign. It's a cycle. Been going on for decades. MB decided to get serious in the segment, finally. Took back market share that was always there for the taking.

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 4, 2012, 6:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
My car with a $30k sticker was negotiated to $23,500, which was 4 cylinder Accord money. Leases were as low as $229 when the F30 was no lower than $359. You are talking about a 30% difference in price.

Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.
$30K sticker negotiated down to $23.5K? It would seem that a bunch of incentives applied and the car was sold under invoice. Typically on a $30K VW the invoice would be about $26,000 or so.

In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.

And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;



As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.

dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 7:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.
...
BJ
The hottie C never matched the E90's great sales numbers last year. It is the F30 that fell behind the hottie C in the last two months. Maybe because the F30 does not look so hot?

I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 7:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
$30K sticker negotiated down to $23.5K? It would seem that a bunch of incentives applied and the car was sold under invoice. Typically on a $30K VW the invoice would be about $26,000 or so.

In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.

And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;



As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.


Sorry, I rounded up

MSRP was something like $28,500 or so. It was during an employee pricing event.

A couple of months ago I was getting emails of 2-3 local VW dealers offering the CC for $229. VW's offer was $299, so it was being bettered at the dealer level.

Before the CC I had leaseda Jetta SE with a $21k sticker for $129 a month, again, about $100 less a month than the VW national campaign.

I see your Intrepid example and well, I am not going to whip out the E-pen as knowing better for coming from an car design back-ground, but it's a bit silly. In certain colors, if the architecture is the same(i.e, black FWD sedan) you can try and build a case that any car can look like or remind someone of another.

Fact is, the CC at launch was nearly universally heralded as a very clean, very appealing design.

Your opinion is valid, it's your own. But your dis-like of the CC's looks puts you in the minority.
voip-ninja commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:13 pm

Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.
Incorrect.

It was one of those "employee pricing for all" events.

As I said, I did not like the'13 CC or Vw reliability and also got plenty of rebates on the 3.
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.
Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.
Thats true too. Fwd vs rwd. The CC was at least offered in a manual though
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
You mean the same styling as the current Mercedes CLS, BMW Gran Coupe and similar to the Audi A7? And I'm not looking to spend $40K on a CC, the Sport model is about $31K well enough optioned for me.
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
In September 2007 the E90 3er had been on the market for 18 months, current C Class was in its first month on the market and the current A4 was still a year away.



From my recent drives at the BMW F30 Olympics driving event (street driving):

F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.


No.


As soon as I read your first two sentences my thought was, "that was a money decision."





For a good number of buyers in this segment for whom fwd is not an issue the TL is a competitor, just as the fwd A4 is. There are a few buyers in this segment who find the Verano a pleasing choice. The styling is good, the price is good, fwd is not an issue for them, they like being a part of Buick's new direction and GM's recovery.
I'm sure there are a few buyers who'd consider a Verano but there are also people who cross shop a 3 series with a Sonata or TSX.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The hottie C never matched the E90's great sales numbers last year. It is the F30 that fell behind the hottie C in the last two months. Maybe because the F30 does not look so hot?

I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned
The last two months of the F30 saw no inventory on the lots and no XDrives.

The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.

Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The last two months of the F30 saw no inventory on the lots and no XDrives.

The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.

Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.

BJ
you know he will have an F30 when his lease is up lol
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.
You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
you know he will have an F30 when his lease is up lol
Of course.

He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.

This thread in particular you may find interesting:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233

I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You mean the same styling as the current Mercedes CLS, BMW Gran Coupe and similar to the Audi A7? And I'm not looking to spend $40K on a CC, the Sport model is about $31K well enough optioned for me.
Some negotiations had an $31k '13 CC offered to me for $26k.
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Some negotiations had an $31k '13 CC offered to me for $26k.
That's a lot of car for that price. Maybe in 2014 it will have the same engine as the new GTI which would be awesome.
tturedraider commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.
An equivalently equipped 2013 328i would have an MSRP only marginally higher than your 2011 model.
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.
you are coming in mid conversation. did you even read who my quote was directed at?

When there is a quote above my post, that means i am directing my comment at that person...

my comment was in response to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.
which is why i wrote
"Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC."
neither voip or myself were talking about you...
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
That's a lot of car for that price. Maybe in 2014 it will have the same engine as the new GTI which would be awesome.
The 2.0 in there now is underrated. Until it gets the valve lift 2.0 from Audi it wont be very different. My car was very quick with a tune...about 245whp/290tq. They are also pretty loaded for the money.
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:17 pm

the CC is like a german TL
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Of course.

He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.

This thread in particular you may find interesting:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233

I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.

BJ
For someone claims to be an adult, you sure don't sound like one. I do know from my own experience, when guys reach a certain senior age, he would act like a child, and has to be treated like one.

According to Jon, BMW is providing some real good trunk money on the F30s this month. We will see how the next several months look like. It will be a real battle in this segment.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
the CC is like a german TL
Cc is a looker. TL was one too up until '08 or so when the beak redesign came. Honda does not and has not made a car i would consider since the s2000.
justinnum1 commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Cc is a looker. TL was one too up until '08 or so when the beak redesign came. Honda does not and has not made a car i would consider since the s2000.
im not talking looks wise, more value. (that 30k range) lots of standard features..
captainaudio commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Of course.

He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.

This thread in particular you may find interesting:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233

I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.

BJ
From the 2007 3 Series owners manual.
captainaudio commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Of course.

He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.

This thread in particular you may find interesting:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233

I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.

BJ
From the 2007 3 Series owners manual:


boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
For someone claims to be an adult, you sure don't sound like one. I do know from my own experience, when guys reach a certain senior age, he would act like a child, and has to be treated like one.

According to Jon, BMW is providing some real good trunk money on the F30s this month. We will see how the next several months look like. It will be a real battle in this segment.
You bought one of the last E90's made, you're two full years away from your next lease, you come into the F30 forum praising every car in the F30's segment except for the F30, and you wonder why you sometimes get criticized.

Your purpose here is clear. Please stop harassing the F30 owners and those truly interested in it's success. All you care about is it's failure.

Appreciate your cooperation.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
From the 2007 3 Series owners manual.
(I know. I was being sarcastic.)

BJ
Michael Schott commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
An equivalently equipped 2013 328i would have an MSRP only marginally higher than your 2011 model.
At this point in my life unless I'm in a new job by the end of my lease I'm trying to reduce my monthly payment. A 2013 equipped exactly like my 2011 by the way is $4000.00 more. Yes it has more features but in 2011 the value package gave free leather. That's a $1500.00 hit now.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 4, 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
im not talking looks wise, more value. (that 30k range) lots of standard features..
Until i lose my sight, such a thing will always be as big a factor as value. Just as well liked as the CC styling gas been, the opposite has been felt about the TL.

The Maxima is a CC competitor too. Pass.
samualcc commented:
October 4, 2012, 10:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
At this point in my life unless I'm in a new job by the end of my lease I'm trying to reduce my monthly payment. A 2013 equipped exactly like my 2011 by the way is $4000.00 more. Yes it has more features but in 2011 the value package gave free leather. That's a $1500.00 hit now.
And in 2017 the same thing will be available. Just hunker down.
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 10:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You bought one of the last E90's made, you're two full years away from your next lease, you come into the F30 forum praising every car in the F30's segment except for the F30, and you wonder why you sometimes get criticized.

Your purpose here is clear. Please stop harassing the F30 owners and those truly interested in it's success. All you care about is it's failure.

Appreciate your cooperation.

BJ
When someone is truly happy with what he has, negatives never get to him, unless if he is a child. A person easily becomes defensive usually has somethings he does not like about himself.
tturedraider commented:
October 4, 2012, 10:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
At this point in my life unless I'm in a new job by the end of my lease I'm trying to reduce my monthly payment. A 2013 equipped exactly like my 2011 by the way is $4000.00 more. Yes it has more features but in 2011 the value package gave free leather. That's a $1500.00 hit now.
Just for curiosity what options does your car have?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
When someone is truly happy with what he has, negatives never get to him, unless if he is a child. A person easily becomes defensive usually has somethings he does not like about himself.
Negatives don't get to me, Doctor Freud, stupidity does.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Negatives don't get to me, Doctor Freud, stupidity does.

BJ
I'll take your word for it.
alpinweiss commented:
October 4, 2012, 11:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
...A 2013 equipped exactly like my 2011 by the way is $4000.00 more. Yes it has more features but in 2011 the value package gave free leather. That's a $1500.00 hit now.
Actually, my situation is similar, but a bit more extreme. A comparison between the Monroney sticker prices of my 2011 328i and an equivalent 2013 328i shows an increase of well over $5000. This does NOT take into account any discounts, rebates, or financing incentives.

My 2011 includes the following: 6-speed manual transmission, leather seats (ZVP value package), Xenon headlights, HK stereo system, heated seats, etc. My 2011 does NOT include the Premium Package, or any other major package options (except ZVP). The 2013 to which I am comparing my car has exactly the same options (as near to identical as allowed by the BMW USA website). No Premium Package or Lines are a part of this comparison.

I am not saying that this will necessarily prevent me from buying an F30. Nonetheless, the increase in the MSRP is staggering.

boltjaM3s commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss View Post
Actually, my situation is similar, but a bit more extreme. A comparison between the Monroney sticker prices of my 2011 328i and an equivalent 2013 328i shows an increase of well over $5000. This does NOT take into account any discounts, rebates, or financing incentives.

My 2011 includes the following: 6-speed manual transmission, leather seats (ZVP value package), Xenon headlights, HK stereo system, heated seats, etc. My 2011 does NOT include the Premium Package, or any other major package options (except ZVP). The 2013 to which I am comparing my car has exactly the same options (as near to identical as allowed by the BMW USA website). No Premium Package or Lines are a part of this comparison.

I am not saying that this will necessarily prevent me from buying an F30. Nonetheless, the increase in the MSRP is staggering.
Many of us currently in F30's received deals that have us at or below our E90 levels on comparably equipped cars.

What's not reflected anywhere is the pull-ahead program with 2 months of lease forgiveness, the $1000 test drive, the $300 BMW app credit, and the usual throw-in's like heated seats or winter mats. Added up, I got close to $2,100 in discounts. The MSRP reflected on BMWUSA.com is misleading. My configuration there shows a $600 monthly payment. I'm paying $539.

BJ
irianjim commented:
October 5, 2012, 5:32 am

Lots of good comments here with the exception of the comment of the E93 looking "tired and stale". I will put the looks of my 2013 red vert against the new sedan any time. That isnt meant to be a bash on the F30 as I do like the F30 and would happily have one if I needed a sedan. But I don't

The F30 is a change with the times and any kinks real or perceived will be worked out. The knocks against the four are being shortsighted. CAFE is here to stay. My favorite BMW still today was my first one, a 1979 320 which was a four cylinder.

Just wanted to say a lot of us E9x owners like the F30 as well, so no need to throw knocks at us or our "tired and stale" cars.
irianjim commented:
October 5, 2012, 5:33 am

Lots of good comments here with the exception of the comment of the E93 looking "tired and stale". I will put the looks of my 2013 red vert against the new sedan any time. That isnt meant to be a bash on the F30 as I do like the F30 and would happily have one if I needed a sedan. But I don't

The F30 is a change with the times and any kinks real or perceived will be worked out. The knocks against the four are being shortsighhted. CAFE is here to stay. My favorite BMW still today was my first one, a 1979 320 which was a four cylinder.

Just wanted to say a lot of us E9x owners like the F30 as well, so no need to throw knocks at us or our "tired and stale" cars.
pony_trekker commented:
October 5, 2012, 7:03 am

Has anyone factored in X1 and X3 sales? These have becomes reasonable alternatives to the 3 series at this point.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 7:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
Just wanted to say a lot of us E9x owners like the F30 as well, so no need to throw knocks at us or our "tired and stale" cars.
Whether a car look good or not is subjective, but being "tired and stale" has some objectivity to it.

If a car has being the same look for very long, in the case of the E90, 8 years, AND there are so many of them you see the same look many times a day, yes it can be "tired and stale". I like the look of E90, but totally understand it when people say the above.

On the other hand, many people, even those who drive BMWs, when look at the F30, often mistaken it for the F10 5 series. I wouldn't call such look "refreshing and exciting" when your own enthusiasts cannot tell what it is, it lacks creativity when you simply shrink a 5 down to 3.

If look is the only measure, the "tired and stale" but refreshed C (and maybe even A4) win over the new F30, if for nothing else, the styling stands on its own.
windsor027 commented:
October 5, 2012, 7:39 am

I had a very interesting conversation with my CA yesterday. he called to make arrangements for delivery and for me to setup insurance etc. I asked him how well are the F30's selling. he said not as good as they thought, and here is the interesting part. He said he could probably move every 335i he could lay his hands on but the 328i there are plenty on the lots. He thought it maybe the fact that this is the first 4-cylinder 3-series in a while. He added most people are like you man, when they go with some of the options they don't see why not spend the extra 4k and go with the 335i. Thus they are very short on 335i on the lots and the allocation for them is hard to get.

After that conversation I think some of us have it dead on. BWM would be buyers will need to get over the 4-cylinder stigma and BMW has not done a great job with advertising the car. I mean I wonder how many buyers out there know the 4-cylinder is a lot more powerful than the N52 it replaces and super economical to boot. Add the fact that just a few options and a package takes the car north of 45K fast and there you have it.

As for the "tired and stall" comment for the E9x models that is total BS. The reason why it may seem this way is because they are everywhere. I mean where I live if I had one I would see myself coming and going every 15th car.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 7:53 am

Any statement with a valid reason behind it, by definition cannot be a total BS. This is not an opinion, rather a statement of fact

The reason 335i is short in supply is likely because they don't build many. BMW needs the 328i to meet CAFE, this is rather a unique issue with BMW in this segment, they don't have non-luxury subsidiaries with economy models to help meeting CAFE.

The 4 bangers are well received by the C and A4 buyers. Maybe BMW drivers are more demanding, but I still say it is more a production issue. They cannot build too many, therefore they don't have enough to sell.
windsor027 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Any statement with a valid reason behind it, by definition cannot be a total BS. This is not an opinion, rather a statement of fact

The reason 335i is short in supply is likely because they don't build many. BMW needs the 328i to meet CAFE, this is rather a unique issue with BMW in this segment, they don't have non-luxury subsidiaries with economy models to help meeting CAFE.

The 4 bangers are well received by the C and A4 buyers. Maybe BMW drivers are more demanding, but I still say it is more a production issue. They cannot build too many, therefore they don't have enough to sell.
How can it be a production issue when dealers are telling you they have plenty of 328i on their lots.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
How can it be a production issue when dealers are telling you they have plenty of 328i on their lots.
Let me try it this way. To meet CAFE, BMW must sell 20 328s (for argument sake), for each 335 they move, then here is your answer. For each 335i allocation, the dealers must accept this number of 328s, but there are not 20 times of 335 buyers who will buy 328s.

Having said that, I am reminded that the 335i is very close to 328i in mpg ratings. Then my speculation could be a total BS.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Just for curiosity what options does your car have?
2011 328i E90
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.

Retail was about $36,500.00.

A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
windsor027 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Let me try it this way. To meet CAFE, BMW must sell 20 328s (for argument sake), for each 335 they move, then here is your answer. For each 335i allocation, the dealers must accept this number of 328s, but there are not 20 times of 335 buyers who will buy 328s.
I am not saying you wrong dude, but this is not a production issue, its a restriction issue BMW has to deal with. And again since the 335i is not that much more expensive than the 328i no wonder they are dealing with this issue. Hell if I was making the decisions at BMW, I would have given the 335i a 40 Hp and 50 lbs or torque boost and added a couple of more thousand to its price, while including at the very least heated font seats. I think they are realizing this now because you saw the difference between the standard equipment of the 2012 F30 and the 2013. Totally stupid IMO not giving this brand new model a boast in power to the N55.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Whether a car look good or not is subjective, but being "tired and stale" has some objectivity to it.

If a car has being the same look for very long, in the case of the E90, 8 years, AND there are so many of them you see the same look many times a day, yes it can be "tired and stale". I like the look of E90, but totally understand it when people say the above.

On the other hand, many people, even those who drive BMWs, when look at the F30, often mistaken it for the F10 5 series. I wouldn't call such look "refreshing and exciting" when your own enthusiasts cannot tell what it is, it lacks creativity when you simply shrink a 5 down to 3.

If look is the only measure, the "tired and stale" but refreshed C (and maybe even A4) win over the new F30, if for nothing else, the styling stands on its own.
You seem to want to make arguments against the F30 for no good reason. Most of them are easy to counter like this one. I couldn't tell a 2013 C class exterior from a 2011 without doing some study. And this with looking at one about 2 months ago at a dealer. The interior is a different story. The newer A4 is a nice refresh but far from radical. Yes it's hard to tell the F30 from an E90 without seeing the front of the car but who really gives a damn? It's what the car is like when driven and that's what makes the F30 stand out from the competition. Even with it's faults (mainly EPS and hard tires) it still beats the competition including the ATS.

I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
2011 328i E90
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.

Retail was about $36,500.00.

A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
What if you let go leather? Frankly I don't see much value of it.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
What if you let go leather? Frankly I don't see much value of it.
Not the point. I'm trying to reduce my monthly payment not increase it. And I got a very good deal on my car so I doubt I could get a comparably equipped F30 even with leatherette for less than what I now pay.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You seem to want to make arguments against the F30 for no good reason. Most of them are easy to counter like this one. I couldn't tell a 2013 C class exterior from a 2011 without doing some study. And this with looking at one about 2 months ago at a dealer. The interior is a different story. The newer A4 is a nice refresh but far from radical. Yes it's hard to tell the F30 from an E90 without seeing the front of the car but who really gives a damn? It's what the car is like when driven and that's what makes the F30 stand out from the competition. Even with it's faults (mainly EPS and hard tires) it still beats the competition including the ATS.

I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.
That is because you read me wrong. Of course you had hard time telling 13 C and 11 C apart, because they are the same model, with minor facelift. But the new C can not easily be mistaken as an E.

At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?

Maybe you don't care about the looks as much as how it drives, and I share the same view with you, but I am not so arrogant to say it does not matter as long as I don't care. Apparently many others do care.

Since you view driving dynamics as paramount, have you driven an ATS and try to push it on the bends and at the corners? Too bad the ATS manual is no good, and you want a manual, but most people will buy auto, not manual. The ATS 6sp auto is more fun than the 8sp.

If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is because you read me wrong. Of course you had hard time telling 13 C and 11 C apart, because they are the same model, with minor facelift. But the new C can not easily be mistaken as an E.

At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?

If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.
I'm reacting to your general posture on this site. Every since the F30 came out your tone is to find some reason to see it in a negative way. And you are right about the F10 and F30 but once again, this is not a BMW specific issue. From the rear it's hard to tell and A4 from an A6 and an A6 from an A8. It's a conscious decision by the automakers. Cadillac has been doing this for a while. I see a lot of XTS's around town and there's a very close resemblance other than size to the ATS. It seems to me that you are making up reasons to dislike the BMW.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I'm reacting to your general posture on this site. Every since the F30 came out your tone is to find some reason to see it in a negative way. And you are right about the F10 and F30 but once again, this is not a BMW specific issue. From the rear it's hard to tell and A4 from an A6 and an A6 from an A8. It's a conscious decision by the automakers. Cadillac has been doing this for a while. I see a lot of XTS's around town and there's a very close resemblance other than size to the ATS. It seems to me that you are making up reasons to dislike the BMW.
I have not read people mistaken an A4 for A6, and there is little chance one could mistaken an ATS for an XTS. There is certainly no mistaken a C for an E, while the brand identity is still well kept.

I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.

But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...because believe it or not, E90 will not be on my next shopping list.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I have not read people mistaken an A4 for A6, and there is little chance one could mistaken an ATS for an XTS. There is certainly no mistaken a C for an E, while the brand identity is still well kept.

I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.

But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...
This is exactly why people don't like you. I was 100% clear and presented all of the facts about the price of my E90 vs a comparable F30. There is no ambiguity. None. I was 100% upfront about everything. How was I misleading people?
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
This is exactly why people don't like you. I was 100% clear and presented all of the facts about the price of my E90 vs a comparable F30. There is no ambiguity. None. I was 100% upfront about everything. How was I misleading people?
I did not come here so people can like me.

What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.

To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.

Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value, to you. Should I complain about your negativity?
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I did not come here so people can like me.

What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.

To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.

Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value. Should I complain about your negativity?
Go back and read my post. I quite clearly said: "Yes it has more features" in reference to the F30. The bottom line and this is quite clear and impossible to misinterpret is an equally optioned F30 is $4000.00 more than my E90. To me that's all that matters in this conversation. The options I wanted are not included in the base price of the F30. I agree the new features like power seats, iDrive and others are great to have and adding these increases the value of the base F30.
vs123 commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:43 am

I was talking to the dealer and I heard similar comments about plenty of 328 inventory and great deals if you want to buy one. What was surprising is that the 5-series has less inventory/supply.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Go back and read my post. I quite clearly said: "Yes it has more features" in reference to the F30. The bottom line and this is quite clear and impossible to misinterpret is an equally optioned F30 is $4000.00 more than my E90. To me that's all that matters in this conversation. The options I wanted are not included in the base price of the F30. I agree the new features like power seats, iDrive and others are great to have and adding these increases the value of the base F30.
If driving dynamics is more important to you, as it is to me, one can easily live with different convenience features. I used leather as an example. Maybe in the near future leather will be standard or in a free value package added. The point is, I did not expect you to take that against the F30.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
2011 328i E90
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.

Retail was about $36,500.00.

A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
Value packages like you describe on your car is a very typical ploy for a car at the end of it's life cycle.

These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.

This is just how it goes.

About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.

This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.

I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.

It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If driving dynamics is more important to you, as it is to me, one can easily live with different convenience features. I used leather as an example. Maybe in the near future leather will be standard or in a free value package added. The point is, I did not expect you to take that against the F30.
The leather option is not pertinent to the conversation. Take out leather and the car is still $39,000.00 which unless I get a spectacular deal will be more than what I pay for my E90. I also happen to think the 3 series is more than just driving dynamics and prefer to sit on leather rather than plastic. If I somehow end up in a CC it will lack leather but at $31K retail I can live with it.

Lets move on please because we have taken this thread way OT. Let's get back to the far fetched reasons the F30 may be losing market share based on a 6 month sample and lack of x-drive until very recently.

I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Value packages like you describe on your car is a very typical ploy for a car at the end of it's life cycle.

These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.

This is just how it goes.

About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.

This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.

I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.

It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
Thanks. I understand this and it and the ZVP was instrumental in my decision. Prior to my 2011 I leased a 2008 E90 with ZPP. I was a bit green on how to negotiate a BMW lease and paid too much for that car. I set a budget and my next car had to fit that budget whether it was a BMW or something else like a CC of GTI. Fortunately the ZVP came out just in time and I was able to end up in a new 3 series at the price I wanted to pay. I sacrificed the sunroof (not an issue at all) and the power memory seats (I miss these a lot) and folding and dipping mirrors to stay in a BMW.

Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Thanks. I understand this and it and the ZVP was instrumental in my decision. Prior to my 2011 I leased a 2008 E90 with ZPP. I was a bit green on how to negotiate a BMW lease and paid too much for that car. I set a budget and my next car had to fit that budget whether it was a BMW or something else like a CC of GTI. Fortunately the ZVP came out just in time and I was able to end up in a new 3 series at the price I wanted to pay. I sacrificed the sunroof (not an issue at all) and the power memory seats (I miss these a lot) and folding and dipping mirrors to stay in a BMW.

Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.
I only drive manuals and walked away with a 6mt CC. Options are still shuffled around keeping manuals only in certain cars, but the base CC with a manual is pretty loaded. I prefer the leather-ette in the CC to BMW. I got a solid lease deal in early '09 when they were new and bought out the car and had it CPO'd so I had a longer warranty. You will not want a CC out of warranty.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post

I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.
The real world cost of the C and A are not that different than the F30. Maybe not a single factor above can lead to any sales issues, but together they add up.

I don't know about the CC, while I think it is a nice looking car, it is not in the same segment. If I am considering a VW, in other words status is no longer a consideration, I'd go with a Golf GTI, more fun and more practical.
justinnum1 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Let me try it this way. To meet CAFE, BMW must sell 20 328s (for argument sake), for each 335 they move, then here is your answer. For each 335i allocation, the dealers must accept this number of 328s, but there are not 20 times of 335 buyers who will buy 328s.

Having said that, I am reminded that the 335i is very close to 328i in mpg ratings. Then my speculation could be a total BS.
It is.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
It is.
So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I don't know about the CC, while I think it is a nice looking car, it is not in the same segment. If I am considering a VW, in other words status is no longer a consideration, I'd go with a Golf GTI, more fun and more practical.
Drive one.

It's a BIG GTI. They share a lot in common. The CC is only 120lbs heavier than a 5dr GTI.

GTI has a whole other persona. If I had only one car and wanted it to be sporty and youthful, yeah GTI is a good choice.

But as a DD to a sports car(which is my situation), the CC is a very good choice. CC vs 3 series. It's a bit of an off comparo the minute you compare a FWD car to RWD. I will say I loved my CC and would not have the 3 if not for the cruddy reliability I experienced.
justinnum1 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?
I am. Especially when users are saying they get 34+mpg on the highway.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I am. Especially when users are saying they get 34+mpg on the highway.
A lot of F30 328i users are saying they get 40+ on the highway.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
GTI has a whole other persona. If I had only one car and wanted it to be sporty and youthful, yeah GTI is a good choice.
I did drive the CC, and don't remember how it was after two years. If I am willing to consider the mainstream brands, not entry level luxury, I might as well be sporty, youthful, and practical at the same time.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?
BMW builds 335's based on consumer demand. They aren't artificially suppressing the demand to sell more 328's.
justinnum1 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
A lot of F30 328i users are saying they get 40+ on the highway.
So? Your need to put down the F30 is getting pathetic, you pretty much ran out of points and using some weak arguments lol.

Not sure if your trying to be a troll but you are.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
BMW builds 335's based on consumer demand. They aren't artificially suppressing the demand to sell more 328's.
If so, would you agree BMW's demand forecast has been wrong, for a long while now, based on everyone's observation, including our site sponsers?
tturedraider commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?
None. That isn't the way it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
BMW builds 335's based on consumer demand. They aren't artificially suppressing the demand to sell more 328's.
100% correct.
Technic commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Value packages like you describe on your car is a very typical ploy for a car at the end of it's life cycle.

These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.

This is just how it goes.

About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.

This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.

I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.

It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
Going back 26 years, BMW has used the Value Package once. In the 2011 E90. If you pay attention to BMW long enough you will quickly realize that they profoundly dislike giving equipment/options for free. The Value Package was a temporary anomaly to patch up a car that was deeply lacking in standard equipment compared to even a Hyundai.

And it really worked for awhile.

With the updated standard equipment in the 2013 F30 (but at a higher MSRP) I do not see the Value Package happening again, IMO.
Technic commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I am not saying you wrong dude, but this is not a production issue, its a restriction issue BMW has to deal with. And again since the 335i is not that much more expensive than the 328i no wonder they are dealing with this issue. Hell if I was making the decisions at BMW, I would have given the 335i a 40 Hp and 50 lbs or torque boost and added a couple of more thousand to its price, while including at the very least heated font seats. I think they are realizing this now because you saw the difference between the standard equipment of the 2012 F30 and the 2013. Totally stupid IMO not giving this brand new model a boast in power to the N55.
That decision was already made: the 4-Series.
justinnum1 commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:56 am

Never seen someone so mad that they got a 2011. It's so obvious the guy has to put down the F30 to make himself feel better about his purchase lol.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I did drive the CC, and don't remember how it was after two years. If I am willing to consider the mainstream brands, not entry level luxury, I might as well be sporty, youthful, and practical at the same time.
I've considered the GTI as well. I eliminated the 2011 CC due to lack of a center rear seat as we had an infant and wanted the car seat in the center. I don't have that requirement anymore but the 2013 model has a full rear seat anyway.

If I decide that a VW works for me after my BMW lease ends I will look at both the CC and GTI especially the next generation GTI. The CC us a bit more grown up than the GTI. Also, I didn't realize the CC still offered a MT which is what I'd choose.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 12:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
None. That isn't the way it works.



100% correct.
If you are so sure about that, you must admit BMW has totally miscalculated the demand, when the dealers have been seriously in shortage of 335s, and too many 328s sitting there.

So either you conclude BMW was clueless, or something else is at play.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 12:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
That decision was already made: the 4-Series.
I thought the 4 series is just coupes? Is it going to be something between 335 and M3?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 12:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Going back 26 years, BMW has used the Value Package once. In the 2011 E90. If you pay attention to BMW long enough you will quickly realize that they profoundly dislike giving equipment/options for free. The Value Package was a temporary anomaly to patch up a car that was deeply lacking in standard equipment compared to even a Hyundai.

And it really worked for awhile.

With the updated standard equipment in the 2013 F30 (but at a higher MSRP) I do not see the Value Package happening again, IMO.
The car industry moves and changes.

I do not care that BMW had not had to do a value package before. The point is, they did for the E90.

Whether they call it a VP again, dunno, doesn't matter.

They will add more features as standard that increase value in a larger relation to increase in price, that is the nature of a car being around for 5 years.

Now granted, they raised the price, but just from '12-13 we got the standard power seats and split folding rear seat, maybe a couple of other small changes.

As this car ages, more things will be added as standard, option packages will be re-structured, and prices will go up very little increasing the value proposition.

BMW is not immune to this strategy.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 12:58 pm

It also has to do with market share and competition. If the value package had proven a winning strategy last year, the first time it was used, then it could easily be used again.

Personally I'd love to see a free or some option credit on the m sport package. They are doing this on the 7 series.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If you are so sure about that, you must admit BMW has totally miscalculated the demand, when the dealers have been seriously in shortage of 335s, and too many 328s sitting there.

So either you conclude BMW was clueless, or something else is at play.
You're using short term anecdotal information to make your conclusions.
Technic commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The car industry moves and changes.

I do not care that BMW had not had to do a value package before. The point is, they did for the E90.

Whether they call it a VP again, dunno, doesn't matter.

They will add more features as standard that increase value in a larger relation to increase in price, that is the nature of a car being around for 5 years.

Now granted, they raised the price, but just from '12-13 we got the standard power seats and split folding rear seat, maybe a couple of other small changes.

As this car ages, more things will be added as standard, option packages will be re-structured, and prices will go up very little increasing the value proposition.

BMW is not immune to this strategy.
It seems to me that this thread is full of angry little men.
Technic commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I thought the 4 series is just coupes? Is it going to be something between 335 and M3?
My comment was more in line of having a 335i with more power, torque and making it more expensive. That's the job of the upcoming 4-Series...
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
It seems to me that this thread is full of angry little men.
Excuse me?

I have only had calm, well presented info in this thread.

Careful what you say or assumptions you make on the interweb to complete strangers on a car forum.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You're using short term anecdotal information to make your conclusions.
I don't think it is short term, it was so right at the start of the F30. It is certainly not anecdotal.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 1:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I don't think it is short term, it was so right at the start of the F30. It is certainly not anecdotal.
I can't find where we've talked about demand outstripping supply on the 335. Can you tell me where to find these posts please?
Chris90 commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I've considered the GTI as well. I eliminated the 2011 CC due to lack of a center rear seat as we had an infant and wanted the car seat in the center. I don't have that requirement anymore but the 2013 model has a full rear seat anyway.
Most cars aren't actually designed to take a car seat in the middle - I don't think BMWs are. You can certainly mount one there using the LATCH connectors designed for the outboard seats, but just keep in mind they aren't designed for a center seat.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I can't find where we've talked about demand outstripping supply on the 335. Can you tell me where to find these posts please?
Two posts in this thread just in the past 12 hours, also ask Jon. If still not sure, call a few dealers.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Most cars aren't actually designed to take a car seat in the middle - I don't think BMWs are. You can certainly mount one there using the LATCH connectors designed for the outboard seats, but just keep in mind they aren't designed for a center seat.
I loved my 4 seater CC. The 5 seater looks like kind of an after thought.

It was nice when I went out with my in-laws, "Sorry, we have to take two cars, the CC only seats 4".
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Most cars aren't actually designed to take a car seat in the middle - I don't think BMWs are. You can certainly mount one there using the LATCH connectors designed for the outboard seats, but just keep in mind they aren't designed for a center seat.
Doesn't matter now. He's 2 and has been behind the passenger seat for over a year.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Two posts in this thread just in the past 12 hours, also ask Jon. If still not sure, call a few dealers.
You are the one making the claim. You provide the facts. I read Windsor's post and if one dealer is not anecdotal then nothing is. I still say as do others that it's total BS that BMW is suppressing 335 sales to boost CAFE.

By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
justinnum1 commented:
October 5, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are the one making the claim. You provide the facts. I read Windsor's post and if one dealer is not anecdotal then nothing is. I still say as do others that it's total BS that BMW is suppressing 335 sales to boost CAFE.

By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
It's not worth arguing with someone who has an agenda.
Chris90 commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Doesn't matter now. He's 2 and has been behind the passenger seat for over a year.
Just FYI, cause you know kids have a habit of multiplying.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are the one making the claim. You provide the facts. I read Windsor's post and if one dealer is not anecdotal then nothing is. I still say as do others that it's total BS that BMW is suppressing 335 sales to boost CAFE.

By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
Did you ask Jon? Pretty much every sponsor at Bimmerfest had said they had shortage of 335s, I have talked to two of my local dealers, the same thing.

As for why, I never made a claim, just a speculation. I even said it could be all wrong. But don't dismiss the facts just because you did not care to learn about them.

You on the other hand made a claim that BMW's 328/335 production allocations are entirely based on consumer demands. You did not even offer any factual support, just a statement.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:17 pm

CAFE is about EPA ratings, not consumer actual experience numbers obviously.

Fact is EPA ratings between the N55 and N20 are strikingly close. There is a larger disparity between actual drivers results. But due to EPA rating, I doubt very much BMW would shuffle output on cars with ratings so similar.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
CAFE is about EPA ratings, not consumer actual experience numbers obviously.

Fact is EPA ratings between the N55 and N20 are strikingly close. There is a larger disparity between actual drivers results. But due to EPA rating, I doubt very much BMW would shuffle output on cars with ratings so similar.
That is why I said my speculation could be wrong. Does CAFE contain emission limits, not just mpg? The N20 has lower emission than N55. I recall the SULEV label only applies to 328.

Similarly in Europe, they try to avoid anything larger than 2.0L.
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Did you ask Jon? Pretty much every sponsor at Bimmerfest had said they had shortage of 335s, I have talked to two of my local dealers, the same thing.

As for why, I never made a claim, just a speculation. I even said it could be all wrong. But don't dismiss the facts just because you did not care to learn about them.

You on the other hand made a claim that BMW's 328/335 production allocations are entirely based on consumer demands. You did not even offer any factual support, just a statement.
I'm not going to ask Jon. It's not that important that I want to bother him with this. And regarding consumer demand, have you ever had an economics class? It's how the market works.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 3:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I'm not going to ask Jon. It's not that important that I want to bother him with this. And regarding consumer demand, have you ever had an economics class? It's how the market works.
Of course I know what consumer demand is, the question is whether you know what it is before you try to use such term.

The dealers don't have enough 335s to sell, yet they have too many 328s on the lot. You insist that BMW allocates 335/328 based on demand. And yet it has been going on ever since the F30 has been released. The reality does not agree with your claim.
ricosan commented:
October 5, 2012, 4:12 pm

I think that they made a big mistake by dropping the 4.4L

ricosan
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 4:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Of course I know what consumer demand is, the question is whether you know what it is before you try to use such term.

The dealers don't have enough 335s to sell, yet they have too many 328s on the lot. You insist that BMW allocates 335/328 based on demand. And yet it has been going on ever since the F30 has been released. The reality does not agree with your claim.
But you are claiming that BMW is doing this to boost CAFE numbers and that makes no sense in this context. Maybe you could address why they don't limit other cars that get worse fuel economy.

I don't know why 335's are hard to get at some dealers but it could be any number of reasons any of which are as valid as yours.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
But you are claiming that BMW is doing this to boost CAFE numbers and that makes no sense in this context. Maybe you could address why they don't limit other cars that get worse fuel economy.
The other models don't sell enough units to have much impact maybe.

Quote:
I don't know why 335's are hard to get at some dealers but it could be any number of reasons any of which are as valid as yours.
Because they don't have enough to go around, what other reasons?
Michael Schott commented:
October 5, 2012, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The other models don't sell enough units to have much impact maybe.



Because they don't have enough to go around, what other reasons?
Certainly the 3 series has the most impact but BMW sells a lot of 5 series. Definitely enough to impact CAFE if the 535 sells a lot compared to the 528. I don't know if this is the case and I can't find any sales breakdowns by engine online.

I agree that there's not enough to go around but whether or not this is intentional is the question.

I've had enough of this thread so see you in another.
pony_trekker commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You will not want a CC or any other VW out of warranty.
Fixed that for you.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 5, 2012, 8:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
Fixed that for you.
True.

Closest to an exception are tdi's. I have friends that have put on tons of miles with no problems. Stellar resale too.
ProRail commented:
October 5, 2012, 9:46 pm

Is the Bimmerfester community is using bad English? Yes, this has been true for many years, but it's been getting worse by the day. BTW, I am not being rude to Speakers of Other Languages. I have been teaching them for many years, and they work very hard to get the grammar right. It's usually the Native English Speakers who are too lazy and sloppy to follow the rules and respect their readers.
ProRail commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:19 pm

Now that my rant is done, I read the whole thread (I can't believe i read the whole thread.) Most entertaining thread in years. Thanks, BJ; you certainly have a way of bringing out the zealots. Carry on, group.
dtc100 commented:
October 5, 2012, 10:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProRail View Post
Is the Bimmerfester community is using bad English? Yes, this has been true for many years, but it's been getting worse by the day. BTW, I am not being rude to Speakers of Other Languages. I have been teaching them for many years, and they work very hard to get the grammar right. It's usually the Native English Speakers who are too lazy and sloppy to follow the rules and respect their readers.
For all the disrespect shown among the posters here, you pick on a small error made in the title, likely caused by fat fingers on a 3" screen?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 5, 2012, 11:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProRail View Post
Now that my rant is done, I read the whole thread (I can't believe i read the whole thread.) Most entertaining thread in years. Thanks, BJ; you certainly have a way of bringing out the zealots. Carry on, group.


What's up? Long time no speak. Glad you're doing well while BMW crumbles to the ground, at the mercy of Mercedes Benz and their badass C Class, going to set sports enthusiasm on it's collective ear, going to drive the 3 Series to the wasteland of other automotive failures like the Corvair and the Edsel. It's a fight to the death, I tell you. The death.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Going back 26 years, BMW has used the Value Package once. In the 2011 E90.
Are you sure? I recall them doing the same thing on the last year of the E46..
mr_clueless commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProRail View Post
Is the Bimmerfester community is using bad English?
Yes.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one.
Are you talking about wheel hop when accelerating on a tight curve or are you talking about torque steer as experience on straight line acceleration? If the latter, you shouldn't experience any on the A4 with its longitudinally mounted engine and equal driving shafts. I know the CC has a transversely mounted engine, but I thing VW does quite a bit to nearly eliminate true torque steer (on straight lines).

The wheel hopping on curves is almost unavoidable on FWD cars, unless they use some fancy slip differentials.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Talk to me first via PM before you go swooning too much over the CC.

If reliability had not been so bad, I would still have mine.
The VW B^ problems suffered some very specific issues. For a little more, I'd rather get into a nice A4, which has a much better engine and nicer interior.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful..
A couple of notes here. The 328i 4-cyl makes more power simply because of more boost. It is yet to be seen how reliable it will be. Audi already fields 2.0T with 265Hp on the TT. They must have some reason for not fielding them on mainstream cars like the A4.

As to the CVT, no one considering a 328i would contemplate getting a CVT/FWD, since for just a little more you can get the quattro.

Btwy, AFAIK, the CVT will be no more on the next model. For economy oriented folks, nothing would beat a FWD/manual combo.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman ...
Not in So. Cal.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I've considered the GTI as well. I eliminated the 2011 CC due to lack of a center rear seat as we had an infant and wanted the car seat in the center. I don't have that requirement anymore but the 2013 model has a full rear seat anyway.
The new CC is a little weird, but still on my shopping list. However, for just an extra $2-3K, you can get an A4 with a much better engine, quattro and better mpgs (despite the quattro), leather, sunrrof, etc. You give up a little rear seat legroom (in exchange for headroom?). Unless they sell at very deep discounts, I am starting to have serious doubts about it.
tturedraider commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post

As to the CVT, no one considering a 328i would contemplate getting a CVT/FWD, since for just a little more you can get the quattro.
Simply incorrect. Around here lots of drivers are terrified by RWD, but are willing to buy FWD Audis and forgo Quattro. I see non-Quattro 2.0T A4s and A6s frequently.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
The new CC is a little weird, but still on my shopping list. However, for just an extra $2-3K, you can get an A4 with a much better engine, quattro and better mpgs (despite the quattro), leather, sunrrof, etc. You give up a little rear seat legroom (in exchange for headroom?). Unless they sell at very deep discounts, I am starting to have serious doubts about it.
Where are you seeing an A4 quattro getting better mpgs than the 2.0 CC.

In my case there was a big price difference between the two. CC was also better looking and rare at the time. Now not so much.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Simply incorrect. Around here lots of drivers are terrified by RWD, but are willing to buy FWD Audis and forgo Quattro. I see non-Quattro 2.0T A4s and A6s frequently.
Drivers terrified by RWD are not considering RWD BMWs. So how am I incorrect?
tturedraider commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Drivers terrified by RWD are not considering RWD BMWs. So how am I incorrect?
Oops. You are not. I had the reverse scenario in my mind when I read that sentence. Sorry about that.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Where are you seeing an A4 quattro getting better mpgs than the 2.0 CC.
2013 manual A4 quattro: 22/26/32 mpg. (city/combined/highway)
2013 FWD manual CC: 21/25/32 mpg.

From http://www.fueleconomy.gov

But I now see the CC also got a 1mpg highway mpg bump. I acknowledge the difference is minute. But as a side note, once you consider that the A4 quattro has AWD and is lugging around an extra ~300lbs, you realize the difference between the two versions of the 2.0T.

I also realize that most people will probably look at auto transmissions, in which case the combined mpg advantage goes back to the CC by 1mpg if you stick with quattro for the A4.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 7, 2012, 6:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Oops. You are not. I had the reverse scenario in my mind when I read that sentence. Sorry about that.
That's what I suspected . When we read fast, sometimes "not" and "no" float around and land in other places of a sentence
bredi commented:
October 8, 2012, 12:49 am

for me its simple.

it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".
boltjaM3s commented:
October 8, 2012, 1:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bredi View Post
for me its simple.

it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".
That is a good personal opinion, but we have data that tells us that this is a predictable transition curve as evidenced by similar double-digit drops in sales for the first 9-12 months of the E90's life back in 2005 when it replaced the E46. Back then, the Sedan saw a blip upon it's introduction, then a downtrend. At the same time, the Coupe, Convertible, and Wagon's were decimated on anticipation of the new bodystyle.

The only other influences on F30 first three quarter sales vs. E90 first three quarter sales would be:

F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).

F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).

Mercedes Benz decided to take the C Class more seriously post-2005.

Audi has ramped up its design and advertising more seriously post-2005.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
October 8, 2012, 1:24 am

Surprised to read BJ now adds the competitions on his short list of why.
Saintor commented:
October 8, 2012, 9:42 am

As soon as the F32 will be back, the F3X should be on top again.

However Mercedes is fighting hard with their refreshed C-Class.

Oh, 4-cyl. turbo + price increase don't compute. Market noticed.
SARAFIL commented:
October 8, 2012, 9:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).

F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).
Actually, there was a similar RWD-first rollout in the spring for the E90 and the AWD arrived in September 2005 as well.

And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 8, 2012, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
Actually, there was a similar RWD-first rollout in the spring for the E90 and the AWD arrived in September 2005 as well.

And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.
E90 Launched in Europe in March 2005 (per BMW)
E90 Launched in US in June 2005 (per BMW)
E90 XDrive Launched Sept 2005 (your recollection)

F30 Launched Worldwide February 2012
F30 XDrive Launched September 2012

The E90 would have had a 3 month lag to XDrive whereas the F30 had a 7 month lag.

BJ
rpilot commented:
October 8, 2012, 2:09 pm

I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.

2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.

As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.
mr_clueless commented:
October 8, 2012, 2:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.
Dunno about the worst part. Audi and MB are equally bad. Lexus is good (at least with respect to the test drive), but the car leaves a lot to be desired (heavy, no manual, poor gas mileage, and at this point, dated). Which dealers were you thinking were better?

Quote:
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
I, for one, don't care about the alarm...those tend to go off unnecessarily and create embarrassing moments. The car does have an immobilizer.

And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)
mr_clueless commented:
October 8, 2012, 2:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.
Dunno about the worst part. Audi and MB are equally bad. Lexus is good (at least with respect to the test drive), but the car leaves a lot to be desired (heavy, no manual, poor gas mileage, and at this point, dated). Which dealers were you thinking were better?

Quote:
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
I, for one, don't care about the alarm...those tend to go off unnecessarily and create embarrassing moments. The car does have an immobilizer.

And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)

The windows do have a light tint and that is plenty for me. I wouldn't want it any darker.

The car is not perfect, but no car is. Otherwise, we'd all be flocking there.
Michael Schott commented:
October 8, 2012, 2:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.

2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.

As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.
A few comments:

Regarding the following points:

3) I've been here almost 5 years and while there are certainly dealer complaints I'd be hard pressed to say BMW dealers are the worst luxury dealers in the US. Personally, my dealer would rate as the best I've ever dealt with.

4) Bundling of options is common in the industry. Try pricing a Cadillac ATS or an Audi A4 or VW GTI.

5) BMW's are very hard to steal. Alarms are more trouble than they are worth.
The X Men commented:
October 8, 2012, 3:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?
The steering has to get to a certain angle to start up the car. If you had simply let go of the brakes, the car would have started up in less than a second. The other options are to push the ASS button or put the car in DS mode.
brkf commented:
October 8, 2012, 7:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
I pay for insurance. Someone wants to steal my car, have at it. No car is worth the hassle of an alarm.
bayoucity commented:
October 8, 2012, 7:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by brkf View Post
I pay for insurance. Someone wants to steal my car, have at it. No car is worth the hassle of an alarm.


Car alarm is so yesterday much like typewriter, 56k modem, tube TV, and so on. I rather pay for BMW Assist & insurance.
justinnum1 commented:
October 8, 2012, 7:59 pm

i rather someone run away after hearing my alarm go off than trying to do something when they get in the car. Sure insnare will replace it but then you have to wait 2 months to get another one
bayoucity commented:
October 8, 2012, 8:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i rather someone run away after hearing my alarm go off than trying to do something when they get in the car. Sure insnare will replace it but then you have to wait 2 months to get another one
That true if it is your only ride. I always have 1-2 spare vehicles during any given day. Again, everyone's situation is different.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 9, 2012, 1:01 am

Whether or not the 3 is actually losing market share, price relative to the competition is a factor.

I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.

The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.

Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.
mr_clueless commented:
October 9, 2012, 1:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Whether or not the 3 is actually losing market share, price relative to the competition is a factor.

I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.

The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.

Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.
Definitely a factor but not an overriding one. The power is significantly better than the A4. Looks are subjective, but the A4's interior doesn't wow...whereas the F30 does (at least for me). Also includes maintenance for 4 yr/50k vs Audi/MB which don't. I think the premium is justified.

There are areas where BMW could do better such as getting rid of the lines and supporting a more normal ordering process to allow a better choice of colors.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.
Turbos have come a long way since the 80s. The N20/N55 are just about the best turbos I have ever driven, almost zero lag, powerful, and fuel efficient. Engines that tell you its time to leave the old stereotyping at the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.
I can't speak to that, I didn't see any quality issues with the 3 F30s I test drove. I am getting my car today and will report if I do see anything resembling bad quality control. Maybe you are super unlucky. Compared to American cars the Germans are way ahead in quality build and that says a lot since American cars have come a long way in the quality department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.
Explain to her its one bad experience. We all had it one time or another. My worse was with my Subaru where the dealership actually lied to me, and second worse was with Mercedes. If you GF keeps nagging tell her you will change her for a better looking and less talkative model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..
I have to agree there with you, the 2012 F30s were the worse as you didn't get a lot unless you got expensive packages. The 2013 F30 was much better and I believe as they go into the 2014 they will have more single choices and probably a few more standard stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
It has the immobilizer so I don't understand what you are saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?
Don't know about the 5 but in the F30 you can shut down the ASS and keep it that way, its something you dealer can do. So this is a non issue on the F30 IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.
You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.
Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.

Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.
Precisely.

Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.

As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.

BJ
MacManVA commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Turbos have come a long way since the 80s. The N20/N55 are just about the best turbos I have ever driven, almost zero lag, powerful, and fuel efficient. Engines that tell you its time to leave the old stereotyping at the door.



I can't speak to that, I didn't see any quality issues with the 3 F30s I test drove. I am getting my car today and will report if I do see anything resembling bad quality control. Maybe you are super unlucky. Compared to American cars the Germans are way ahead in quality build and that says a lot since American cars have come a long way in the quality department.



Explain to her its one bad experience. We all had it one time or another. My worse was with my Subaru where the dealership actually lied to me, and second worse was with Mercedes. If you GF keeps nagging tell her you will change her for a better looking and less talkative model.



I have to agree there with you, the 2012 F30s were the worse as you didn't get a lot unless you got expensive packages. The 2013 F30 was much better and I believe as they go into the 2014 they will have more single choices and probably a few more standard stuff.



It has the immobilizer so I don't understand what you are saying here.



Don't know about the 5 but in the F30 you can shut down the ASS and keep it that way, its something you dealer can do. So this is a non issue on the F30 IMO.



You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.



Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.
Windsor are you excited or What? Mine gets to Baltimore Saturday, so hopefully about a week or so.

I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManVA View Post
Windsor are you excited or What? Mine gets to Baltimore Saturday, so hopefully about a week or so.

I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.
I am super excited man, ETA for the car to get here is early afternoon, I took off work today. I plan to put at least 150 miles on the car today..

Saturday, you are almost there bro. I think either Saturday or Sunday we are going to the Annapolis boat show.

yea I read where you posted you saw a taxi. Crazy Vegas man, the last F30 I have seen in Mclean must have been two weeks ago and here you are seeing F30 taxis...LOL
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.

As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.

BJ
People will still see a dozen a day since they would not be able to tell the F30 and F10 apart.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Definitely a factor but not an overriding one. The power is significantly better than the A4. Looks are subjective, but the A4's interior doesn't wow...whereas the F30 does (at least for me). Also includes maintenance for 4 yr/50k vs Audi/MB which don't. I think the premium is justified.
I guess the question is if the 3 series is worth the extra cost over the C class and the A4, according to the trends, more and more people do not think so. As the C class and the A4 made marketing adjustments to compete with the 3 series, so will BMW. My guess is that BMW will package the options differently in the future to make the 3 series more affortable as well as lowering the lease rate.

Power wise, its not a significant difference, according to edmunds:

"The 2012 BMW 328i sweeps both straight-line tests by hitting 60 mph in 5.9 seconds (5.5 seconds using a 1-foot rollout like on a drag strip) and passing through the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 98.9 mph. The A4 is marginally slower to 60 mph at 6.2 seconds (5.9 seconds with rollout) and is a half-second back at the quarter-mile with an effort of 14.6 seconds at 94.1 mph. "

Aa far as BMW's free maintenance for 4 yr/50k, Audicare is the 4 year maintenace plan offer for Audi, it cost about $800.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
People will still see a dozen a day since they would not be able to tell the F30 and F10 apart.
Maybe you can't but most of us can. Hell especially from the front the lights how they integrate with the grill is a dead giveaway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Aa far as BMW's free maintenance for 4 yr/50k, Audicare is the 4 year maintenace plan offer for Audi, it cost about $800.
That is 800 dollars BMW owners don't have to pay...just saying.
trinipirate commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:52 am

The only downside I see is the lack of a remote starter as w/ all BMW's and this is only because I live in New England. Other than that, I can live w/ the car just fine.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Maybe you can't but most of us can. Hell especially from the front the lights how they integrate with the grill is a dead giveaway.
As a 535xi owner, I must say its very hard to tell the difference between the F30 and the F10 aside from seeing in the front as you said. Remember when Audi first came out with this the one sausage, different length concept, the BMW fanboys were having a field day with it. Now that the BMW and Lexus is doing the same thing, its has become more acceptable.
Chris90 commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
The only downside I see is the lack of a remote starter as w/ all BMW's and this is only because I live in New England.
Maybe BMW knows it's bad for the engine to warm it up at idle in the winter. I never do that.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
As a 535xi owner, I must say its very hard to tell the difference between the F30 and the F10 aside from seeing in the front as you said. Remember when Audi first came out with this the one sausage, different length concept, the BMW fanboys were having a field day with it. Now that the BMW and Lexus is doing the same thing, its has become more acceptable.
Never had a problem with what Audi was doing either. I agree from the back they are similar but why would an F30 owner have an issue with this. Hell if you car looks like a 5 series that ok also since the 5 is more expensive/higher status as BJ would say. I would have been bad if the F30 looked like the 1-series...
trinipirate commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Maybe BMW knows it's bad for the engine to warm it up at idle in the winter. I never do that.
not buying that
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
not buying that
Really? Both my 2000 A4 with a 1.8T and 2004 A4 with the same engine had a prominent note in the manual that it was bad for the engine to let it idle to warm up in sub-freezing temperatures. The recommendation was simply to start it up and drive off, keeping RPMs down until the engine warmed up.

I don't see why that logic would not apply to this 2.0T engine... or, for that matter, any engine.

My understanding is that letting a cold engine idle to temperature is bad due to the oil not circulating very well without the motor operating at something other than idle, resulting in excessive engine wear over time. Basically you have cold oil sitting in the bottom of the engine and at idle it is not doing much else.
trinipirate commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Really? Both my 2000 A4 with a 1.8T and 2004 A4 with the same engine had a prominent note in the manual that it was bad for the engine to let it idle to warm up in sub-freezing temperatures. The recommendation was simply to start it up and drive off, keeping RPMs down until the engine warmed up.

I don't see why that logic would not apply to this 2.0T engine... or, for that matter, any engine.

My understanding is that letting a cold engine idle to temperature is bad due to the oil not circulating very well without the motor operating at something other than idle, resulting in excessive engine wear over time. Basically you have cold oil sitting in the bottom of the engine and at idle it is not doing much else.
there are problems, then there are solutions. people who are used to remote starters don't want to hear about why its not good, they just want it. i have one on one of our vehicles and that's what i'm basing my request on. the fact that it may not be good for their engine doesn't stop people from wanting it. there's nothing wrong with having a wish list or wanting more from a car/company you like and respect. i honestly think they really don't care about this option anytime soon, regardless if the engine was capable or not.
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Maybe you can't but most of us can. Hell especially from the front the lights how they integrate with the grill is a dead giveaway.



That is 800 dollars BMW owners don't have to pay...just saying.
You (and me) can probably tell the sport line apart from the luxury line. But if your point is, less F30 market share is good because people in general will see less of them on the road, then maybe they will not.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You (and me) can probably tell the sport line apart from the luxury line. But if your point is, less F30 market share is good because people in general will see less of them on the road, then maybe they will not.
I don't have a point. I think the way the market is right now with so many manufactures making good cars BMW is bound to lose some share of the market. Makes no difference to me I still think its the best sport sedan in the 40K to 50K price range.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I don't have a point. I think the way the market is right now with so many manufactures making good cars BMW is bound to lose some share of the market. Makes no difference to me I still think its the best sport sedan in the 40K to 50K price range.
Anything is better than a 2011 328i, a car conceived in 2003, launched in 2005, and found everywhere. I could open a box of Corn Flakes, find a 2011 328i in there.

BJ
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Anything is better than a 2011 328i, a car conceived in 2003, launched in 2005, and found everywhere. I could open a box of Corn Flakes, find a 2011 328i in there.

BJ
I was checking in cars.com and saw several 328i 2007 2008 for under 18K with low miles. You are correct they are everywhere out there.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Never had a problem with what Audi was doing either. I agree from the back they are similar but why would an F30 owner have an issue with this. Hell if you car looks like a 5 series that ok also since the 5 is more expensive/higher status as BJ would say. I would have been bad if the F30 looked like the 1-series...
It's not that much more, is it? In any event I brought my 2008 550 in for service, was given an F30 loaner and then couldn't get rid of the 50 fast enough. If the metric is fun there's no comparison.
windsor027 commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
It's not that much more, is it? In any event I brought my 2008 550 in for service, was given an F30 loaner and then couldn't get rid of the 50 fast enough. If the metric is fun there's no comparison.
Awesome to know. I can't wait to have my best friend drive the F30. He has a 2011 535i M sport. I think he will be pissed....lol
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Anything is better than a 2011 328i, a car conceived in 2003, launched in 2005, and found everywhere. I could open a box of Corn Flakes, find a 2011 328i in there.

BJ
Although it is true the E90 is everywhere, they stand on their own, not easily mistaken for another model. I think the current C Class benefits from the same factor. You see a lot of them, but they are unmistakably C Class, you can't say you thought it was an E Class.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Awesome to know. I can't wait to have my best friend drive the F30. He has a 2011 535i M sport. I think he will be pissed....lol
The 5-s are nice cars but while we may like to nitpick the F30-s, there's nothing so outstanding near their price point. I could replace the 5 with an Audi, Lexus or Merc and be ok, but I can't replace the F30.
UnderSteer commented:
October 9, 2012, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Although it is true the E90 is everywhere, they stand on their own, not easily mistaken for another model. I think the current C Class benefits from the same factor. You see a lot of them, but they are unmistakably C Class, you can't say you thought it was an E Class.
I think you are missing the point here. BJ did not have status because he drove an E90, the E90 had status because BJ drove one. People would see an E90 and say "Look there goes someone with a car like BJ's! Did you get a look at the driver? Was it Donald Trump?, J-Lo?, Matt Damon?, Bill Gates?

Now that he has moved on the E90 has lost its status and the car that formerly made Mr. and Mrs. Camry crazy with jealously has been relegated to the scrap heap of tired former status symbols.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 1:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
there are problems, then there are solutions. people who are used to remote starters don't want to hear about why its not good, they just want it. i have one on one of our vehicles and that's what i'm basing my request on. the fact that it may not be good for their engine doesn't stop people from wanting it. there's nothing wrong with having a wish list or wanting more from a car/company you like and respect. i honestly think they really don't care about this option anytime soon, regardless if the engine was capable or not.
I guess the problem is that no one wants remote starters anymore.
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 1:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
I think you are missing the point here. BJ did not have status because he drove an E90, the E90 had status because BJ drove one. People would see an E90 and say "Look there goes someone with a car like BJ's! Did you get a look at the driver? Was it Donald Trump?, J-Lo?, Matt Damon?, Bill Gates?

Now that he has moved on the E90 has lost its status and the car that formerly made Mr. and Mrs. Camry crazy with jealously has been relegated to the scrap heap of tired former status symbols.
No, BJ's point was not lost in me, although you summed it up better than BJ himself.

Status is subjective. I was merely trying to find more objective points in these discussions, such as whether the F30 and F10 look more alike or not, than say comparing the E90 with E60, or going even back when the 3 series was very distinctively on its own.

I think the tradition of individuality has gradually given way to the need to conform to the greatest masses.
MacManVA commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:05 pm

The Audi pre-paid maintenance does NOT include parts other than oil, oil filter,etc. so as the car gets older and parts wear out like brakes you are stuck with the bill. The Audi MMI System is quite inferior to the iDrive system.
mr_clueless commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
The 5-s are nice cars but while we may like to nitpick the F30-s, there's nothing so outstanding near their price point. I could replace the 5 with an Audi, Lexus or Merc and be ok, but I can't replace the F30.
Not if you want a manual.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Not if you want a manual.
True, I may see that as pointless but not everybody.
tim330i commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:25 pm

The world wide numbers came out today for BMW, including the F30 3 series -

"The BMW 3 Series achieved sales of 39,302 vehicles last month (prev. yr. 35,842/ +9.7%)"

More details - http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=650802

The way I read that is that sales in the US might be down for reasons I'm sure have been discussed in the thread already but that overall BMW F30 sales are up.

Tim
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:48 pm

I can easily see the F30 selling well in places like China, where status, luxury and comfort are very important attributes. Since China is now the largest market, I see automakers cater to their taste more, and may not pay as much attention to the US market as in the past.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I can easily see the F30 selling well in places like China, where status, luxury and comfort are very important attributes. Since China is now the largest market, I see automakers cater to their taste more, and may not pay as much attention to the US market as in the past.
As someone who frequently travels to and does business in China I agree. I wonder if a cigarette lighter is standard there as our tobacco industry does a great job exporting cigarettes to China.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
As someone who frequently travels to and does business in China I agree. I wonder if a cigarette lighter is standard there as our tobacco industry does a great job exporting cigarettes to China.
Even though China is now the world's biggest market for cars, I would think the US is still BMW's biggest market.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 4:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Even though China is now the world's biggest market for cars, I would think the US is still BMW's biggest market.
I don't know the numbers but in terms of economic growth both short and long term where a segment can afford BMW-s, nothing comes close to China. And over there brand means even more than here. BMW and Mercedes stand to really benefit.

Even before tensions grew between the Chinese and Japanese, the Chinese preferred German. Now I'd hate to be a Lexus sales rep.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I don't know the numbers but in terms of economic growth both short and long term where a segment can afford BMW-s, nothing comes close to China. And over there brand means even more than here. BMW and Mercedes stand to really benefit.

Even before tensions grew between the Chinese and Japanese, the Chinese preferred German. Now I'd hate to be a Lexus sales rep.
In terms of economic growth, I dont think anybody can compete with China.

I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
The world wide numbers came out today for BMW, including the F30 3 series -

"The BMW 3 Series achieved sales of 39,302 vehicles last month (prev. yr. 35,842/ +9.7%)"

The way I read that is that sales in the US might be down for reasons I'm sure have been discussed in the thread already but that overall BMW F30 sales are up.

Tim


BJ
Chris90 commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In terms of economic growth, I dont think anybody can compete with China.

I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
The article said BMW sales are up 55% in China since the Japan-China tensions started (a month ago).
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In terms of economic growth, I dont think anybody can compete with China.

I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
50% surprises me. Maybe it reflects some sales before the dispute escalation. I'd expect at some point it'll approach 0. There is a lot of ill will boiling to the surface. You have a certain percentage angry and willing to act to the point that the rest of the people want to just stay out of the way of this.

Even doing business there I try to keep tabs on protest activity not that it's been a problem for foreigners...yet.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
The article said BMW sales are up 55% in China since the Japan-China tensions started (a month ago).
Kind of makes you wonder how the Germans were able to instigate things.
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In terms of economic growth, I dont think anybody can compete with China.

I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
If the natural gas and oil reserves are hundreds of billions of dollars worth, Japan would have to lose a lot of business in China to make up for it.

Not to mention that giving up those islands to China is sending a signal to China that they can continue to push on other things, like Taiwan without protest from Japan or their proxy, the US.
dtc100 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:43 pm

If Lexus and Infiniti can't sell in China, maybe they will try to sell more in the US by shipping more units and cutting price more?

Camry half price special, anyone?
AF commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:40 pm

I had noticed I don't see many F30's and when I asked my local dealer a few months ago they made a VERY good point ... they were't ordering as many of them until the Xdrive came out.

Now that the xdrive is available i am betting you will see a lot more of them on the road especially here in the Northeast.
Michael Schott commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Anything is better than a 2011 328i, a car conceived in 2003, launched in 2005, and found everywhere. I could open a box of Corn Flakes, find a 2011 328i in there.

BJ
Mine came from a box of Raisin Bran. I need the fiber.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Mine came from a box of Raisin Bran. I need the fiber.
You're lucky.

Me, I'm looking for a sway bar. I hear they're most readily found in boxes of Cocoa Puffs.

BJ
RobertaZ commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:27 pm

Well.....BMW Canada has introduced a lower priced model, the Classic, which lists for $39,990. Unfortunately, it is available in an automatic only and sport seats and suspension are not available which rules it out for me.
bayoucity commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Even though China is now the world's biggest market for cars, I would think the US is still BMW's biggest market.
In 12-24 months, it will be China > USA > Germany.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
If the natural gas and oil reserves are hundreds of billions of dollars worth, Japan would have to lose a lot of business in China to make up for it.

Not to mention that giving up those islands to China is sending a signal to China that they can continue to push on other things, like Taiwan without protest from Japan or their proxy, the US.
I think Japan is really in a tough position. Before the Fukushima accident, Japan was the world's third biggest user of nuclear power, they had planned to increase nuclear's share of the energy mix to 50% by 2030. As a result of the Fukushima accident, Japan has recently announced plans to end its reliance on nuclear power within 30 years. This signals a major shift in how the country will get its power source from. Japan's need for oil and natural gas will increase due to its shift from nuclear power generation. Either way, this will be a lose lose situation for Japan.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I think Japan is really in a tough position. Before the Fukushima accident, Japan was the world's third biggest user of nuclear power, they had planned to increase nuclear's share of the energy mix to 50% by 2030. As a result of the Fukushima accident, Japan has recently announced plans to end its reliance on nuclear power within 30 years. This signals a major shift in how the country will get its power source from. Japan's need for oil and natural gas will increase due to its shift from nuclear power generation. Either way, this will be a lose lose situation for Japan.
Yeah, it's becoming an issue of national security, which, unfortunately is how wars get started.
Chris90 commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I think Japan is really in a tough position. Before the Fukushima accident, Japan was the world's third biggest user of nuclear power, they had planned to increase nuclear's share of the energy mix to 50% by 2030. As a result of the Fukushima accident, Japan has recently announced plans to end its reliance on nuclear power within 30 years. This signals a major shift in how the country will get its power source from. Japan's need for oil and natural gas will increase due to its shift from nuclear power generation. Either way, this will be a lose lose situation for Japan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Yeah, it's becoming an issue of national security, which, unfortunately is how wars get started.
I view this as not a Japanese play for oil near the islands, but simply a display of nationalism in response to economic slowdown. I seriously doubt Japan has any plans to go develop the oil fields in that area.

As always, Japan's timing is incredibly poor, giving Chinese nationalism an excuse to fire up during their own economic slowdown. Japanese companies are begging their government to cut the crap, they're getting crushed.

Regardless, European and American car companies are benefitting.
beden1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Yeah, it's becoming an issue of national security, which, unfortunately is how wars get started.
That's why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:34 am

Where is our display of nationalism, consider that both Japan and Germany were at war with the US?
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Yeah, it's becoming an issue of national security, which, unfortunately is how wars get started.
When I was in Shenzhen in September, it seemed as though the government was encouraging protests but things quickly spiraled past what they'd have wanted. Now they're trying to tone it down at the citizen level. The population is still very angry about WWII and feels government acquisition of the islands is effectively a continuation of the resource raid WWII was for China. There are plenty of people whose grandmothers were raped by the Japanese who'd like a what for with Japan.

The Chinese government is pretty smart. With China and Japan the second and third largest world economies they can't afford continuing escalations. Japan has even more incentive to avoid conflict insofar as they can't defend themselves and we sure aren't going to do it.

Look for compromise and diplomatic solutions, achieved slowly and carefully so as to preserve face.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
When I was in Shenzhen in September,
I was there for 3 weeks exactly a year ago. It was an experience.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I was there for 3 weeks exactly a year ago. It was an experience.
Don't mean to hijack but you're right, it's not Kansas. Toto would be even money to end up hanging naked in a storefront. But there are lots of great things about China, for many it really starts to grow on you. During my last visit I stayed the length of my visa limit and not because I had to, I could get away with three or four weeks a year.

Just be sure not to forget tissues.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
When I was in Shenzhen in September, it seemed as though the government was encouraging protests but things quickly spiraled past what they'd have wanted. Now they're trying to tone it down at the citizen level. The population is still very angry about WWII and feels government acquisition of the islands is effectively a continuation of the resource raid WWII was for China. There are plenty of people whose grandmothers were raped by the Japanese who'd like a what for with Japan.

The Chinese government is pretty smart. With China and Japan the second and third largest world economies they can't afford continuing escalations. Japan has even more incentive to avoid conflict insofar as they can't defend themselves and we sure aren't going to do it.

Look for compromise and diplomatic solutions, achieved slowly and carefully so as to preserve face.
Japan's vulnerability is not national security, rather limited resources (why they invaded their neighbors) and an aging population. As their economy continues to suffer, the politicians fan nationalism as an answer. The Chinese government has always used nationalism to its advantage to control the population and suppress the critics.

BTW, China has risen so much there is no looking back, the advances in infrastructures there were mind boggling after two trips there ten years apart. They can only defeat themselves in their own game.
Chris90 commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I was there for 3 weeks exactly a year ago. It was an experience.
I was in Shenzhen once. Took a photo of the menu.

Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Don't mean to hijack but you're right, it's not Kansas. Toto would be even money to end up hanging naked in a storefront. But there are lots of great things about China, for many it really starts to grow on you. During my last visit I stayed the length of my visa limit and not because I had to, I could get away with three or four weeks a year.

Just be sure not to forget tissues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I was in Shenzhen once. Took a photo of the menu.

I am a bit of a picky eater(No seafood for example) so that made things much harder.

animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am a bit of a picky eater(No seafood for example) so that made things much harder.

animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
I was introduced to a popular seafood meal in which while you work on the fish, it could bite your fingers off if you were not careful, because the fish head was kept alive. I chickened out.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:15 pm

I've been to Hong Kong and Shenzhen once a year for 15 years and my biggest issue is avoiding the karaoke clubs and massage facilities. I just can't say 'no' at the fruit plate and the US dollar just goes too far.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I was introduced to a popular seafood meal in which while you work on the fish, it could bite your fingers off if you were not careful, because the fish head was kept alive. I chickened out.
That sounds more like Japan than China. Chinese generally don't eat raw stuff.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
The Chinese government is pretty smart. With China and Japan the second and third largest world economies they can't afford continuing escalations. Japan has even more incentive to avoid conflict insofar as they can't defend themselves and we sure aren't going to do it.
.
Japan do not have too many friends in Asia. Obviously, the Chinese hates them, the Koreans like nothing more than to stick it to them for what they did in WW2. If conflict arise between China and Japan, it will be interesting to see what involvement the US military will take under the Treaty of San Francisco. I think the last thing the US want right now is a war with China over a Japanese claim of a small island.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Japan's vulnerability is not national security, rather limited resources (why they invaded their neighbors) and an aging population.
Yes but with no real military they can't defend the rocks and fanning nationalism is tough when warheads are your only source of miitary strength. Industry will reign the expansionist goofballs in fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am a bit of a picky eater(No seafood for example) so that made things much harder.

animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
Oh, the food is insanely good and dirt cheap there. You do have to know what you're eating and be careful where you go. It's not uncommon for cooking oils to be scooped out of gutters for re-use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I've been to Hong Kong and Shenzhen once a year for 15 years and my biggest issue is avoiding the karaoke clubs and massage facilities. I just can't say 'no' at the fruit plate and the US dollar just goes too far.

BJ
LOL. How are you able to handle the beautiful young ladies who will do anything to have you bring them back to the US with you? So far I've managed to stay strong.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Japan do not have too many friends in Asia. Obviously, the Chinese hates them, the Koreans like nothing more than to stick it to them for what they did in WW2. If conflict arise between China and Japan, it will be interesting to see what involvement the US military will take under the Treaty of San Francisco. I think the last thing the US want right now is a war with China over a Japanese claim of a small island.
The consensus amongst expats over there is the 50,000 or so US troops in Japan present the prospect of both risk and stability. We can't pull 'em, we can't use 'em but they're in the way of a military advance.

With proper diplomacy all around it's hard to imagine how the 1,2 and 3 biggest economies of he world would get into it, even in recession. That said, the ex pats and I are all businessmen who see things through economics. History amongst the three countries is a little bit of a sticky wicket.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
That sounds more like Japan than China. Chinese generally don't eat raw stuff.
Supposedly the fish is well cooked, except the head, and It is left gasping for air.

BTW, depending on where it is, things are no longer cheap. In fact many Chinese there consider real estate here cheap and buy with cash left and right.
Chris90 commented:
October 10, 2012, 3:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Yes but with no real military they can't defend the rocks and fanning nationalism is tough when warheads are your only source of miitary strength. Industry will reign the expansionist goofballs in fast enough.
Japan has a substantial military, something like the 3rd or 4th largest military budget in the world, and state of the art stuff (F-15s, Aegis cruisers).

Quote:
LOL. How are you able to handle the beautiful young ladies who will do anything to have you bring them back to the US with you? So far I've managed to stay strong.
I don't remember seeing a single attractive woman in Hong Kong, was there twice. Nothing like Shanghai or Taiwan.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post

LOL. How are you able to handle the beautiful young ladies who will do anything to have you bring them back to the US with you? So far I've managed to stay strong.
You need to learn the phrase "Hong Kong Wife".

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 3:59 pm

Ha. I have a story from a good friend that went to Taiwan a few times on business that would explain this to a T (girlfriend at the time set limits which he ended up going past because he didn't want to hurt the feelings of the young lady). However, it is not a story that should be shared on a public forum.

All I know is I hope BJs actual US Wife (#1) doesn't read his forum posts. LOL.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Japan has a substantial military, something like the 3rd or 4th largest military budget in the world, and state of the art stuff (F-15s, Aegis cruisers).
Japan rank 9th in the world's most powerful military, behind China, India and South Korea.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You need to learn the phrase "Hong Kong Wife".

BJ
I'm not about to admit my state of knowledge about that on a public forum, per v-ninja's advice. I will say there are newish buildings in Shenzhen mostlyl inhabited by female friends of married Hong Kong bon vivants who are "sponsoring" them.

Since the mainlanders can't readily go to Hong Kong but the HK guys can pass through at will, it must be nice for them to know their gf-s can't follow them home.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Japan has a substantial military, something like the 3rd or 4th largest military budget in the world, and state of the art stuff (F-15s, Aegis cruisers).



I don't remember seeing a single attractive woman in Hong Kong, was there twice. Nothing like Shanghai or Taiwan.
They're 6th to 9th depending upon source which means little because after the US and maybe China, nobody has a meaningful military budget. The US is really the only country that diverts meaningful GDP that way. Japan has the toys as I alluded to, partly because they make us happy by buying our stuff. But they aren't trooped up and since WWII have been neutered.

Hong Kong is really a completely different place than mainland China and we're talking mainland. That said, there is no shortage of both beautiful and ugly in both places depending upon where you look.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
They're 6th to 9th depending upon source which means little because after the US and maybe China, nobody has a meaningful military budget. The US is really the only country that diverts meaningful GDP that way. Japan has the toys as I alluded to, partly because they make us happy by buying our stuff. But they aren't trooped up and since WWII have been neutered.

Hong Kong is really a completely different place than mainland China and we're talking mainland. That said, there is no shortage of both beautiful and ugly in both places depending upon where you look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures

China spends a lot true... but if you look at, for example, all of the NATO countries excluding the US, they combined still have more military spending than China does.

No question that China is on a path towards replacing the former USSR as the chief military that the US will concentrate on countering later on this century.

And.... we are now seriously off topic and I'm one of the principal offenders. My apologies to the OP and others who want to discuss BMW market share.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 10, 2012, 6:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I've been to Hong Kong and Shenzhen once a year for 15 years and my biggest issue is avoiding the karaoke clubs and massage facilities. I just can't say 'no' at the fruit plate and the US dollar just goes too far.

BJ
I was there for a few weeks. Every woman, beautiful or now was built like a 12 year old boy lol.

I have a unique job as Industial Designer, sometimes I am at an nice office complex working with their engineers, but much of the time I am in their filthy factories sort of doing QA on the assembly line. Most of my meals were at the factory which looks very much like a concentration camp at lunch time.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 6:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I was there for a few weeks. Every woman, beautiful or now was built like a 12 year old boy lol.

I have a unique job as Industial Designer, sometimes I am at an nice office complex working with their engineers, but much of the time I am in their filthy factories sort of doing QA on the assembly line. Most of my meals were at the factory which looks very much like a concentration camp at lunch time.
Why I said it all depends on where it is. The places I went were more upscale, very similar to the big US cities. The least expensive bottle of wine (mostly Aussie or CA wine) was over 300 RMB, which was about US$50. A nice dinner for two was easily over US$100. Not what I call dirt cheap, and those were just average dinning places located in semi-upscale shopping malls.

Young women were beautiful and trendy too, very westernized. One thing I noticed, not a single one of them was overweight or plus size
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Why I said it all depends on where it is. The places I went were more upscale, very similar to the big US cities. The least expensive bottle of wine (mostly Aussie or CA wine) was over 300 RMB, which was about US$50. A nice dinner for two was easily over US$100. Not what I call dirt cheap, and those were just average dinning places located in semi-upscale shopping malls.

Young women were beautiful and trendy too, very westernized. One thing I noticed, not a single one of them was overweight or plus size
I also apologize for the hijack, but where were you staying? When I'm in Shenzhen, Shanghai or Bejing, I eat pretty well for 20 RMB or $3. Fancy meals in fancy places are certainly more but still around hald what I'd pay in the states for what I get. Per person for under 300 RMB you can eat like a king.

Wine is a different story and usually not worth getting at all. Most I've gotten is not only expensive but poorly stored.
dtc100 commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I also apologize for the hijack, but where were you staying? When I'm in Shenzhen, Shanghai or Bejing, I eat pretty well for 20 RMB or $3. Fancy meals in fancy places are certainly more but still around hald what I'd pay in the states for what I get. Per person for under 300 RMB you can eat like a king.

Wine is a different story and usually not worth getting at all. Most I've gotten is not only expensive but poorly stored.
Shanghai, outside of Shanghai we stayed with pre-paid tour packages.

In Shanghai we visited an old friend of my dad several times. They were school buddies before the communists took over. After 40 years he went back found his childhood buddy. The guy was an iron man, locked up by the communists several times for the most part of the 40 years but lived to tell.

Since we were familiar with Shanghai, we sought out many eating places, from upscale to hole in the wall kind. Ten years ago it was cheap, but now I can honestly say we never found a place we could eat "pretty well" for 20 RMB per person.

I agree with you about the wine. There were places that knew how to store and serve wine, but they were upscale and very expensive. After we got back, went to or local favorite wine tasting diner, had some real good wine and a nice meal, for half what we spent in a similar quality place in Shanghai.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Shanghai, outside of Shanghai we stayed with pre-paid tour packages.

In Shanghai we visited an old friend of my dad several times. They were school buddies before the communists took over. After 40 years he went back found his childhood buddy. The guy was an iron man, locked up by the communists several times for the most part of the 40 years but lived to tell.

Since we were familiar with Shanghai, we sought out many eating places, from upscale to hole in the wall kind. Ten years ago it was cheap, but now I can honestly say we never found a place we could eat "pretty well" for 20 RMB per person.

I agree with you about the wine. There were places that knew how to store and serve wine, but they were upscale and very expensive. After we got back, went to or local favorite wine tasting diner, had some real good wine and a nice meal, for half what we spent in a similar quality place in Shanghai.
As a tourist it may be different. As a frequent business visitor you get to know the places.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
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No question that China is on a path towards replacing the former USSR as the chief military that the US will concentrate on countering later on this century.
Thanks mostly to US technology transfer, to make a quick buck in the short run.

One incident in particular was due to a trend years ago to use cheap launch services from Russia and China. If I remember right, of four satellites launched by Chinese rockets, two ended in the wrong orbits. It was blamed on the lack of accuracy of their guidance system. So Honeywell's system was given to them with the promise that they will use it only for commercial rockets. of course, they immediately ended up in their ICBMs. There are already untold numbers of ICBMs aimed at California and I am sure by now many other places in the US.