boltjaM3s commented:
October 4, 2012, 12:47 am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1
anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?
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Okay, got ahold of the BMW investor reports from back around the time of the E90 transition, below is the relevant information.
Summarized, BMW had a staggered launch of the E90 where it was available in Europe prior to the US by a period of 3 months and they used to break out Sedan vs. other styles which they don't do anymore, so the data is a bit dicey to interpret. Big picture, the E90 saw dips in sales vs. the E46 for the first 6-12 months of its life. The Coupes and Convertibles particularly were hit hard once the Sedan launched. For the first three periods BMW reported the E90 on which are somewhat congruent to the first two periods BMW reported the F30 on, the E90 dipped 3 Series sales (19%) and (11%) then (3%) below E46 levels.
2005 Quarterly Report (June 2005) E90 is 1 month old (worldwide):
The new model of the BMW 3 Series Sedan
has been particularly well received on the market.
Since market introduction in March 2005 (Europe),
April 2005 (Asia) and May 2005 (USA), 69,385 units
had been sold to customers by the end of June –
more than a third of the total unit sales of the
BMW 3 Series during the period. Including sales of
the predecessor model, 127,951 units of the BMW 3
Series Sedan were sold during the first half of 2005,
6.1% more than in the corresponding period last
year. As expected, the sales volume of the
BMW 3
Series has fallen in connection with the model
change; 195,693 units were sold during the first
half of 2005, (19.1)% fewer than in the corresponding
period last year.
The new BMW 3 Series Touring model will be
introduced onto the markets from September 2005
onwards.
27,465 units (–33.4%) of the present
model were sold during the first half of 2005.
In addition, 17,642 (– 45.5%) BMW 3 Series
Coupé and 17,900 (–28.7%) BMW 3 Series Convertible
were delivered to customers between January
and June 2005.
2005 Quarterly Report (September 2005) E90 is 5 months old:
The sales volume of the BMW 3 Series declined
overall as a result of the model change. 311,324 units
were sold in the period from January to September
2005 (–10.9 %). The first new 3 Series model is
the BMW 3 Series Sedan, which was introduced
onto the market in March 2005; 148,818 units had
already been delivered to customers by the end
of September 2005. For the nine-month period,
the sales volume of the BMW 3 Series Sedan and
its predecessor model totalled 215,032 units, an
increase of 20.4% compared to the previous year.
Favourable customer acceptance of the new BMW
3 Series Sedan is also reflected in the sales volume
figures for this model in the third quarter 2005:
87,078 units were delivered to customers, 50.0%
more than in the same quarter last year. The new
BMW 3 SeriesTouring came onto the market in September
2005.
The total sales volume of the BMW
3 Series Touring in the first three quarters of 2005
was 39,329 units (–33.7%). In the same period,
25,425 units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé (–45.3%)
and 25,987 units of the BMW 3 Series Convertible
(–22.3%) were sold
2005 Annual Report (Dec 2005) E90 is 8 months old:
Despite the BMW 3 Series Sedan model change,
the BMW 3 Series remains the world's best-selling
model series in the segment for premium middle
class cars;
434,342 units of the BMW 3 Series were
delivered to customers in 2005 (– 3.4%). The new
BMW 3 Series Sedan is the best-selling car of the
BMW Group: having sold 229,932 units since its market
launch in March 2005, it accounted for 17.3%
of the total sales volume of the BMW Group in 2005.
2006 First Quarter Report (March 2006) E90 is 10 months old:
122,691 BMW 3 Series vehicles were delivered
to customers worldwide in the period from January
to March 2006, 54.3% more than in the previous
year. This strong growth was attributable to particularly
strong demand for the BMW 3 Series Sedan
and for the BMW 3 Series Touring following the
model change. Both models were introduced to the
markets during the course of 2005 and are now
available to customers worldwide. 84,739 BMW 3
Series Sedans (+88.2%) and 26,096 BMW 3 Series
Touring cars (+72.2%) were sold during the first
quarter 2006, of which 954 and 943 respectively
were predecessor models.
During the same period,
5,785 BMW 3 Series Coupés (–33.4%) and 5,951
BMW 3 Series Convertibles (–19.4%) were delivered
to customers.
2006 Second Quarter Report (June 2006) E90 is 13 months old:
In April, international automotive journalists
voted the BMW 3 Series as the "World Car of the
Year". The popularity of the 3 Series is also reflected
in the sales volume achieved:
254,338 units were
sold during the six-month period, giving a particularly
strong growth rate of 30.0%. More than
400,000 units of the BMW 3 Series Sedan have been
delivered to customers since the model change in
spring 2005. The sales volume for the first half of
2006 was 175,141 units, 36.9% more than one year
earlier. During the same period, 53,728 BMW 3
Series Touring (introduced in September 2005) were
handed over to customers, representing a 95.6%
increase over the previous year.
The sales volume
figures for the BMW 3 Series Coupé and of the
BMW 3 Series Convertible were lower than in the
previous year as a result of life-cycle factors. 11,401
units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé were sold, (35.4)%
fewer than in the same period last year. The BMW 3
Series Coupé model change will take place in September
2006. With 13,838 units sold, the sales volume
of the BMW 3 Series Convertible was (22.7)%
lower than one year earlier
=========================================
2012 Quarterly Report (March 2012) F30 is 1 month old:
The BMW 3 Series also performed well,
with the
market launch of the new Sedan in February
(+ 13.6 %) already having a positive impact. In total,
91,189 units of the BMW 3 Series were handed over to
customers during the quarter under report (+ 3.9 %).
2012 Quarterly Report (June 2012) F30 is 4 months old:
Sales of the BMW 3 Series,
at
193,989 units, were slightly up on the previous year
(+ 0.6 %). The four-wheel-drive system (xDrive) for the
Sedan as well as the launches of the new Touring and extended
wheelbase version for China will also revitalise
demand in the second half of the year.
Source:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....sbericht.shtml
BJ
October 3, 2012, 11:01 am
For a car that is recently redesigned and considering that both the C-class and the A4 is at the end of their design cycles, the new 3 series should be be posting much better sales numbers.
October 3, 2012, 11:20 am
For a car that is recently redesigned and considering that both the C-class and the A4 is at the end of their design cycles, the new 3 series should be be posting much better sales numbers.
Where did you get the sales breakdown per manufacturer/model?
October 3, 2012, 11:26 am
The problem BMW has with the 3-series in the US is the price hike vs the E90 and no question it's hurting sales.
October 3, 2012, 11:37 am
October 3, 2012, 11:42 am
October 3, 2012, 11:43 am
According to this web site, BMW 3 Series sales appear to be trending up in September over August 2012, but still down considerably as compared to year-over-year sales. Up through April 2012, the sales numbers would appear to include previous model close-out sales.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
October 3, 2012, 11:47 am
October 3, 2012, 11:51 am
October 3, 2012, 11:52 am
October 3, 2012, 12:02 pm
October 3, 2012, 12:33 pm
I will withhold judgement until the E9x models have run their course. And if you think about it the E9x was such a high volume car as it was getting ready to be replaced by the F30, so I am not suprised the A4 and the C-class are getting bought up. There are some sweet deals out there for both models.
October 3, 2012, 12:34 pm
October 3, 2012, 12:52 pm
The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
October 3, 2012, 12:57 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 1:02 pm
Not enough XDrive models. Check.
Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.
A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.
Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.
E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 1:03 pm
I currently own a 2012 Audi A4 Prestige S-Line fully loaded that I will be trading in when my 328xDrive arrives. A couple of things to keep in mind. If you look at the A4 sales for last year they where down most of the year and there was no Audi advertising for that model. This year the model has been refreshed and I have noticed a significant increase in the Audi advertising I see on TV and online. I'm sure both of those play into the increase in sales. Also, wasn't the MB C-Class refreshed before the new F30's? If so then they have had more time on the market.
October 3, 2012, 1:05 pm
In fact, I'm in my third E9X since 2006 and I'm paying less than the prior two. I don't think it's price. It's, what else, a transition.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 1:08 pm
If MY transition is to blame, the C Class transition seems much well executed.
October 3, 2012, 1:26 pm
I think you will start seeing more advertising when there is sufficient inventory.
October 3, 2012, 1:28 pm
The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
October 3, 2012, 1:34 pm
The f30 is so evolutionary vis a vie the e90 there is nothing to make me want to run out and buy one. When the e9x came out and I compared it to my e46, I had to have one. Now, I really don't see much advantage. N4S
October 3, 2012, 1:40 pm
October 3, 2012, 1:43 pm
And since the E90 sold so well, it's a matter of waiting for those millions of leases to expire and those owners to transition right into the F30. It's a great car, nothing about it would make an E90 owner unhappy, quite the opposite in fact, BMW will have a huge conversion rate. The biggest group of potential F30 owners are presently in E90 leases.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 1:46 pm
This thread seems similar to another thread we just had. We can probably start these threads using a Mad Libs game:
Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.
Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.
I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.
I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.
Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.
P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
October 3, 2012, 1:48 pm
Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.
Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.
I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.
I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.
Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.
P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
October 3, 2012, 1:53 pm
Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.
Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.
I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.
I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.
Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.
P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
October 3, 2012, 1:54 pm
October 3, 2012, 1:58 pm
And since the E90 sold so well, it's a matter of waiting for those millions of leases to expire and those owners to transition right into the F30. It's a great car, nothing about it would make an E90 owner unhappy, quite the opposite in fact, BMW will have a huge conversion rate. The biggest group of potential F30 owners are presently in E90 leases.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 2:29 pm
Not enough XDrive models. Check.
Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.
A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.
Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.
E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.
BJ
The local dealer has 18 2013 328Xi's on the lot. If the problem is really pent up demand of customers sitting around for months itching to buy a 328Xi, why so many cars sitting there?
October 3, 2012, 2:36 pm
I do find it interesting that those who are taking issue with this are E90 owners, or other previous generation owners. Over the next 7 years(the F30 lifecycle) it will outsell all other cars in it's class.
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm
You have a crystal ball or something that predicts car sales?
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm
The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
That people can't tell a BMW driving experience from that of other brands is not supported by the frequent threads posted here by new buyers expressing their excitement over how their car drives and stating they will never go back.
btw - it's MUCH LESS a case of BMWs driving like the competition than it is the competition driving more like a BMW.
If MY transition is to blame, the C Class transition seems much well executed.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 2:38 pm
October 3, 2012, 2:54 pm
That people can't tell a BMW driving experience from that of other brands is not supported by the frequent threads posted here by new buyers expressing their excitement over how their car drives and stating they will never go back.
btw - it's MUCH LESS a case of BMWs driving like the competition than it is the competition driving more like a BMW.
I wouldn't take BFest anecdotes by new F30 owners to represent the overall car market, and whether BMWs still differentiate from the competition. Go to a Cadillac or Acura forum, it's full of the same types of comments from new owners.
When I drove the competition before buying my two BMWs, they lacked feel, were too soft, and weren't fun to drive enough to justify the high cost. So I think it's BMW moving toward the competition.
October 3, 2012, 2:55 pm
I thought I read this was a 2012 issue and a minor one (very few reported) at that.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 3:04 pm
October 3, 2012, 3:25 pm
October 3, 2012, 3:45 pm
October 3, 2012, 3:51 pm
October 3, 2012, 3:54 pm
October 3, 2012, 4:15 pm
The competition is tough, and BMWs drive more and more like the competition. A '95 3 series didn't drive like any Toyota, Lexus, Audi or Nissan, it was a very unique driving experience. Today, you could blindfold drivers and they probably couldn't pick out the BMW.
October 3, 2012, 4:22 pm
October 3, 2012, 4:33 pm
Well guys it is the month of ________ and the latest 3 series numbers are out.
Looks like this month there was a _______ in sales over last years numbers, things seem like they are going _______ over in Germany.
I bet that the problem is related to _______ and that Audi and Mercedes are really just ______ compared to the 3 series.
I am also pretty sure that the price has had a ________ impact on sales, at least IMHO.
Personally, I really don't see a need to buy an F30 over my _______ but I am coming here to ask your opinion on these _________ sales numbers, even though I will never buy an F30. I am really here because my home forum is a ______ of _______.
P.S. have you guys checked out the latest head to head match up between the F30 and the _______. I know the 3 series won (again) but after dissecting the review, it is pretty clear that BMW is on the _______ and the competition is catching up.
Nice. Also, I hear all the 3-s are really just $50,000 vibrators.
October 3, 2012, 4:40 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 4:46 pm
There are no "enthusiasts" as far as BMW is concerned. And if there were, they've been taking it up the *** for 20 years, not going to stop, compromising themselves in the E90 and F30 which are the antithesis of smaller, tighter, sportier rides. BMW makes a series if accessories and derivative models for that small group, but the platform is a bigger, wider, luxurious, soft car.
It amazes me how far from reality some folks truly are. BMW hasn't forgotten you. You're just not the target audience and what that audience wants isn't an E46. It's an E39.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 4:50 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 4:52 pm
The local dealer has 18 2013 328Xi's on the lot. If the problem is really pent up demand of customers sitting around for months itching to buy a 328Xi, why so many cars sitting there?
If those 18 cars are No-Line, Modern, or Sport, I'm not buying. Used to be that you wanted a Grey 328i and they'd show you 4 of them with varying options and usually you could come pretty close to save 10 weeks of delivery time. But varying trim levels, different story.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 4:55 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 4:56 pm
October 3, 2012, 5:00 pm
The numbers are what the numbers are. BMW 3 Series sales were down in a month where overall car sales were up. The question is whether this is an anomaly or is it the beginning of a long term trend. There is also the possibility that the previous period had unusually high sales figures and the figures we are seeing now are relatively normal. Unless you are looking at relatively long term data these figures don't really tell you much.
My gut feeling is that except for the possibility of sticker shock (and tturedraider had a thread that showed that 3 Series price has stayed constant when you adjust for inflation, and BJ is paying less for his lease on a more expensive car), whatever the perceived deficiencies in the F30 are relative to the E90 would probably not concern the majority of the buyers.
IMO, roundel or not, BMW would loose customers if the general public perceived that the quality of the new model was significantly reduced but that does not seem to be the case.
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:02 pm
I paid $33k for my 2004 back in 2005, after I saw what the E90 was going to look like.
October 3, 2012, 5:04 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 5:07 pm
My E36 when it was 8 years old felt kinda jiggly and tired. My E46 feels brand new. I think BMWs are holding up better than they used to.
October 3, 2012, 5:10 pm
btw - that last sentence reminded me of something. No one is changing their focus to AWD to better compete with Audi. In fact, no one is gunning for Audi or Mercedes. As we all agree competition is good. BMW has been dedicated to this sport sedan thing longer than anyone and done it better than anyone. Does anyone really think they'll make a fatal misstep now?
October 3, 2012, 5:13 pm
There are no "enthusiasts" as far as BMW is concerned. And if there were, they've been taking it up the *** for 20 years, not going to stop, compromising themselves in the E90 and F30 which are the antithesis of smaller, tighter, sportier rides. BMW makes a series if accessories and derivative models for that small group, but the platform is a bigger, wider, luxurious, soft car.
It amazes me how far from reality some folks truly are. BMW hasn't forgotten you. You're just not the target audience and what that audience wants isn't an E46. It's an E39.
BJ
That being said BMW realizes that that market is interested in performance but also expects a certain amount of creature comforts and luxury features. The issue that I had with my 335i with the stock suspension and the RFTs was that it was a Sports/Luxury car that had serious deficiencies in both categories,
As I have stated here numerous times a good handling car does not have to have a rock hard suspension that shakes the fillings out of your teeth and damages the car when a poor surface is encountered.
If BMW goes too far in either direction (not enough performance in the name of comfort or not enough comfort in name of performance) they are going to loose sales. It is a delicate balance and the brand that pulls it off the best will sell very well.
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:15 pm
Lexus had the IS300 back then, it's way more sporty and BMW-like than today's IS350. It didn't sell.
Cadillac says it's targeting the E46. Give me a break.
October 3, 2012, 5:18 pm
My E36 when it was 8 years old felt kinda jiggly and tired. My E46 feels brand new. I think BMWs are holding up better than they used to.
The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
October 3, 2012, 5:20 pm
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:25 pm
The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:29 pm
The people who are keeping their cars longer are doing so because they can't afford a new car. Not because the love the one they have. Those people wouldn't be shopping BMW even if they were in the new car market.
I'm sure that's part of it (hard economic times) but I also read that modern cars are a lot more reliable than in the past.
It just seems to me like 3 series sales should be going up, not down. Hard to believe it's all just due to inventory issues.
October 3, 2012, 5:30 pm
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:33 pm
That being said BMW realizes that that market is interested in performance but also expects a certain amount of creature comforts and luxury features. The issue that I had with my 335i with the stock suspension and the RFTs was that it was a Sports/Luxury car that had serious deficiencies in both categories,
As I have stated here numerous times a good handling car does not have to have a rock hard suspension that shakes the fillings out of your teeth and damages the car when a poor surface is encountered.
If BMW goes too far in either direction (not enough performance in the name of comfort or not enough comfort in name of performance) they are going to loose sales. It is a delicate balance and the brand that pulls it off the best will sell very well.
CA
I do want to point out your 335i sport package model is the most heavy-ass E9x 3er there is and exceedingly few complained as vehemently as you have. I have a sport package E90 and I am perfectly happy with its suspension. In fact, as a result of my experience attending my first BMW driving event for the introduction of the E90, the superior driving dynamics are exactly why I bought my '06 E90 330i, RFTs and all.
October 3, 2012, 5:34 pm
Only time will tell.
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:40 pm
BJ
October 3, 2012, 5:41 pm
I do want to point out your 335i sport package model is the most heavy-ass E9x 3er there is and exceedingly few complained as vehemently as you have. I have a sport package E90 and I am perfectly happy with its suspension. In fact, as a result of my experience attending my first BMW driving event for the introduction of the E90, the superior driving dynamics are exactly why I bought my '06 E90 330i, RFTs and all.
CA
October 3, 2012, 5:42 pm
In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.
Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
October 3, 2012, 5:44 pm
CA
I'm sure that's part of it (hard economic times) but I also read that modern cars are a lot more reliable than in the past.
It just seems to me like 3 series sales should be going up, not down. Hard to believe it's all just due to inventory issues.
Did you see my post about X3 series sales this year v last year. F30 sales have barely begun.
October 3, 2012, 5:44 pm
Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
October 3, 2012, 5:53 pm
Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
October 3, 2012, 6:08 pm
The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
At this point in time the "enthusiast" market has aged. The Baby Boomers who were buying BMW 1600s and 2002s, and Camaro Z28s and Boss 302 Mustangs 40 years ago may be looking for something a bit more luxurious and comfortable but for the most part someone who owned a Z28 or a Boss 302 in 1969 is not interested in the 2012 version of a 1962 Coupe de Ville or Lincoln Continental. I attend a lot of automobile related events including track days, concours, car club meets, etc. and for the most part it is not a younger crowd.
October 3, 2012, 6:13 pm
The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
The X3 increase is not indictive of sales in this segment. Light crossover sales are all the rage now. As an example, the GLK350 outsold the X3 by a good margin last month,
October 3, 2012, 6:18 pm
CA
October 3, 2012, 6:25 pm
CA
October 3, 2012, 6:38 pm
The price issue is a red herring. Just as it was the many times it was brought up during the E9x model run; the most successful 3er ever.
I am not a statistician, but if one look at the current trend, it sure looks like the 3 series is losing market share and will continue to do so unless some changes are made by BMW or the competition. Almost all newly redesign cars enjoy a upward trend in sales numbers, some times as high as a few hundres percent compare in a year ago. I think price certianly have something to do with the sales down trend, price is always a factor.
October 3, 2012, 6:50 pm
I am not a statistician, but if one look at the current trend, it sure looks like the 3 series is losing market share and will continue to do so unless some changes are made by BMW or the competition. Almost all newly redesign cars enjoy a upward trend in sales numbers, some times as high as a few hundres percent compare in a year ago. I think price certianly have something to do with the sales down trend, price is always a factor.
You're perfectly entitled to think what you'd like about the sales numbers. I doubt BMW cares one iota what anyone here speculates about their sales numbers. This thread has gone way too long and I've contributed to that way too much. I'm out.
October 3, 2012, 7:25 pm
There are more factors that many are not considering. The competition, not just Audi or Mercedes but Toyota, Honda, Nissan,etc have better cars that are just as capable and have standard equipment that BMW considers options. options such as heated seats, ALARM, and Bluetooth streaming. I understand this is not a budget car but many co workers prefer to buy cheap car who have those luxury options vice BMWs. the other brands are offering a better value and equal driving experience.
October 3, 2012, 7:38 pm
October 3, 2012, 7:57 pm
Not enough XDrive models. Check.
Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.
A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.
Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.
E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.
A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.
BJ
Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.
Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.
October 3, 2012, 9:01 pm
All I am hearing here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04
October 3, 2012, 9:24 pm
Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.
The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.
I think the last "Fresh Grad" BMW may have been the 2002.
At this point in time the "enthusiast" market has aged. The Baby Boomers who were buying BMW 1600s and 2002s, and Camaro Z28s and Boss 302 Mustangs 40 years ago may be looking for something a bit more luxurious and comfortable but for the most part someone who owned a Z28 or a Boss 302 in 1969 is not interested in the 2012 version of a 1962 Coupe de Ville or Lincoln Continental. I attend a lot of automobile related events including track days, concours, car club meets, etc. and for the most part it is not a younger crowd.
The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.
Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.
BJ
October 3, 2012, 9:34 pm
The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.
That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.
The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.
BJ
CA
October 3, 2012, 9:50 pm
The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.
That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.
The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.
Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.
BJ
Look at the cars that Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche or any of the companies (that are still around) and were the traditional makers of sports cars are making today. All of these cars have become much more refined, and much more comfortable. These cars have climate control systems, navigation systems, power windows and seats, power steering and brakes, etc.
Times change. I don't think that drivers who are interested in performance cars are looking for "softer" cars. They just realize that they no longer have to make the compromises in comfort and day to day drivability that they had to make in the past.
CA
October 3, 2012, 9:52 pm
I think as long as BMW continues to call the 3 series the ultimate driving machine, it is fair to argue whether the new 3 has lost some driving dynamics or not, or whether the competitions have matched or passed it in driving dynamics.
As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.
October 3, 2012, 10:15 pm
Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.
Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.
BMW blew it on the "lines"? Check
BMW lack of advertising for F30? Check
Conversation in Muniich = "We're intoducing the most important model for our company.
Let's short the product, do little advertising, screw up the options. You know those American enthusiasts, they'll still buy it!" Munich blew it along with BMW USA.
The life cycle on E92 and e93 is insignicant to the sales rate. The real issue is a brand new model can't beat the end of life cycle numbers and that is something BMW should be very very concerned about.
October 3, 2012, 10:18 pm
anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?
October 3, 2012, 11:48 pm
As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.
I don't want to have these discussions censored, ultimately that's what we're here for. It's a discussion forum, not a fanclub. Just seems that every week another thread is started as one thing disguised as another. "Cadillac ATS" and "This Month's Sales Results" become code for yet another "The F30 Is Too Big, Make An E46, You Suck BMW" thread. E90 and E46 owners attack the F30, F30 owners defend the F30, everyone gets upset, not really necessary to replay that 52 times a year as it's not going to change anything.
Go to the E90 forum and create a thread called "The F30 Sucks, So What's Our Next Move After Our E90's Have To Go?" and all we F30 owners will race over there and contribute so you get some adult feedback amidst the high school rhetoric. That work for you?
BJ
October 3, 2012, 11:53 pm
It's been some time since I last posted, but the ongoing E90 better/worse than E46 debate really captures my fancy.
Drawbacks of the new models are, however, too many for it to make it an unqualified success. Please bear with me if this sounds repetitious either because earlier posters have already brought them up or because I've posted these opinions before:
a) Dash is plain ugly. This could be subjective, but I still do not warm to the plank straight, minimalist look of the new design w/o i-Drive, while the twin cowl version with i-Drive is shades worse.
b) Unergonomic details - stop/start button with cartridge key, electronic turn signals, obscured cruise control, fiddly i-Drive, rear seat that has less headroom and outer edges that are so uncomfortably hard that the added width and leg/knee room are wasted, boot access still as bad as ever, particularly so if the optional computer tray is ordered.
c) Not driver/passenger focused - no temperature gauge but a pointmess vacuum gauge, no dipstick, poor ergonomics (as above), flimsy cup holders, courtesy light goes out the minute you slip the cartridge key into its slot so you cannot belt up and do any adjustments while there is light.
d) Deterioration of cabin plastic quality - door trims feel especially hard after the E46.
e) Styling not to everyone's taste - to me the E90 has presence only because it is UGLY!
f) The car feels limp and flaccid in tight, urban situations, unlike the E46, which was more easily manoeuvred and did not feel at all out of its depth on backroad blasts.
Compared to the E90, the E46 may be more cramped in the back, less refined on the move and not as sharp in handling, but for me (and I guess many on this forum), a much better balance of qualities and attributes.
I suspect that the E90 sells more on its image and brand desirability than on pure merit/talent, even though it is hardly the class dunce. Some would say this was already so of the E46, but at least the old model was not so compromised and diluted to appeal to the masses. It appealed to those who put driving pleasure ahead of all other considerations and could deliver without adopting useless gimmicks.
Colin
BJ
October 4, 2012, 12:03 am
BJ
Never mind, I see he listed his car as an '02 330d T M Sport Auto. I bet he's still driving it.
October 4, 2012, 12:15 am
BJ your fatal mistake is, you think these threads are attack of E90 drivers against F30, when in fact for the most part, they are discussions about F30 against its competitors, not E90.
You hold on to this straw dog that for the most part does not exist. The recent sales reports do not have the E90 in them, the comparison tests by various mags also did not look at E90.
You need to understand BMW drivers are not two year olds, just because you don't like the discussions, does not mean people will start to discuss the F30 in the E90 forums.
October 4, 2012, 12:47 am
Summarized, BMW had a staggered launch of the E90 where it was available in Europe prior to the US by a period of 3 months and they used to break out Sedan vs. other styles which they don't do anymore, so the data is a bit dicey to interpret. Big picture, the E90 saw dips in sales vs. the E46 for the first 6-12 months of its life. The Coupes and Convertibles particularly were hit hard once the Sedan launched. For the first three periods BMW reported the E90 on which are somewhat congruent to the first two periods BMW reported the F30 on, the E90 dipped 3 Series sales (19%) and (11%) then (3%) below E46 levels.
2005 Quarterly Report (June 2005) E90 is 1 month old (worldwide):
The new model of the BMW 3 Series Sedan
has been particularly well received on the market.
Since market introduction in March 2005 (Europe),
April 2005 (Asia) and May 2005 (USA), 69,385 units
had been sold to customers by the end of June –
more than a third of the total unit sales of the
BMW 3 Series during the period. Including sales of
the predecessor model, 127,951 units of the BMW 3
Series Sedan were sold during the first half of 2005,
6.1% more than in the corresponding period last
year. As expected, the sales volume of the BMW 3
Series has fallen in connection with the model
change; 195,693 units were sold during the first
half of 2005, (19.1)% fewer than in the corresponding
period last year.
The new BMW 3 Series Touring model will be
introduced onto the markets from September 2005
onwards. 27,465 units (–33.4%) of the present
model were sold during the first half of 2005.
In addition, 17,642 (– 45.5%) BMW 3 Series
Coupé and 17,900 (–28.7%) BMW 3 Series Convertible
were delivered to customers between January
and June 2005.
2005 Quarterly Report (September 2005) E90 is 5 months old:
The sales volume of the BMW 3 Series declined
overall as a result of the model change. 311,324 units
were sold in the period from January to September
2005 (–10.9 %). The first new 3 Series model is
the BMW 3 Series Sedan, which was introduced
onto the market in March 2005; 148,818 units had
already been delivered to customers by the end
of September 2005. For the nine-month period,
the sales volume of the BMW 3 Series Sedan and
its predecessor model totalled 215,032 units, an
increase of 20.4% compared to the previous year.
Favourable customer acceptance of the new BMW
3 Series Sedan is also reflected in the sales volume
figures for this model in the third quarter 2005:
87,078 units were delivered to customers, 50.0%
more than in the same quarter last year. The new
BMW 3 SeriesTouring came onto the market in September
2005. The total sales volume of the BMW
3 Series Touring in the first three quarters of 2005
was 39,329 units (–33.7%). In the same period,
25,425 units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé (–45.3%)
and 25,987 units of the BMW 3 Series Convertible
(–22.3%) were sold
2005 Annual Report (Dec 2005) E90 is 8 months old:
Despite the BMW 3 Series Sedan model change,
the BMW 3 Series remains the world's best-selling
model series in the segment for premium middle
class cars; 434,342 units of the BMW 3 Series were
delivered to customers in 2005 (– 3.4%). The new
BMW 3 Series Sedan is the best-selling car of the
BMW Group: having sold 229,932 units since its market
launch in March 2005, it accounted for 17.3%
of the total sales volume of the BMW Group in 2005.
2006 First Quarter Report (March 2006) E90 is 10 months old:
122,691 BMW 3 Series vehicles were delivered
to customers worldwide in the period from January
to March 2006, 54.3% more than in the previous
year. This strong growth was attributable to particularly
strong demand for the BMW 3 Series Sedan
and for the BMW 3 Series Touring following the
model change. Both models were introduced to the
markets during the course of 2005 and are now
available to customers worldwide. 84,739 BMW 3
Series Sedans (+88.2%) and 26,096 BMW 3 Series
Touring cars (+72.2%) were sold during the first
quarter 2006, of which 954 and 943 respectively
were predecessor models. During the same period,
5,785 BMW 3 Series Coupés (–33.4%) and 5,951
BMW 3 Series Convertibles (–19.4%) were delivered
to customers.
2006 Second Quarter Report (June 2006) E90 is 13 months old:
In April, international automotive journalists
voted the BMW 3 Series as the "World Car of the
Year". The popularity of the 3 Series is also reflected
in the sales volume achieved: 254,338 units were
sold during the six-month period, giving a particularly
strong growth rate of 30.0%. More than
400,000 units of the BMW 3 Series Sedan have been
delivered to customers since the model change in
spring 2005. The sales volume for the first half of
2006 was 175,141 units, 36.9% more than one year
earlier. During the same period, 53,728 BMW 3
Series Touring (introduced in September 2005) were
handed over to customers, representing a 95.6%
increase over the previous year. The sales volume
figures for the BMW 3 Series Coupé and of the
BMW 3 Series Convertible were lower than in the
previous year as a result of life-cycle factors. 11,401
units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé were sold, (35.4)%
fewer than in the same period last year. The BMW 3
Series Coupé model change will take place in September
2006. With 13,838 units sold, the sales volume
of the BMW 3 Series Convertible was (22.7)%
lower than one year earlier
=========================================
2012 Quarterly Report (March 2012) F30 is 1 month old:
The BMW 3 Series also performed well,
with the market launch of the new Sedan in February
(+ 13.6 %) already having a positive impact. In total,
91,189 units of the BMW 3 Series were handed over to
customers during the quarter under report (+ 3.9 %).
2012 Quarterly Report (June 2012) F30 is 4 months old:
Sales of the BMW 3 Series,
at 193,989 units, were slightly up on the previous year
(+ 0.6 %). The four-wheel-drive system (xDrive) for the
Sedan as well as the launches of the new Touring and extended
wheelbase version for China will also revitalise
demand in the second half of the year.
Source:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....sbericht.shtml
BJ
October 4, 2012, 1:03 am
^^ Do you mean to say the BMW sky is not, in fact, falling? Can it be?
October 4, 2012, 1:13 am
BJ
October 4, 2012, 1:28 am
The above sources indicated in 2005 during the E90 launch, except the first month or two (when the E46 and E90 were sold together), the 3 series was up by 20% to 54%.
In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.
Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.
We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.
October 4, 2012, 2:27 am
October 4, 2012, 3:08 am
BJ
ng
October 4, 2012, 8:16 am
In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.
Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.
We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.
October 4, 2012, 8:48 am
If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.
For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge within this segment.
October 4, 2012, 9:04 am
October 4, 2012, 9:10 am
If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.
For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge in this segment.
The proper way to look at this is that a $500 a month lease is the expectation for a luxury car in this segment. Any brand offering something similar for $350 isn't offering a true luxury car. Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, not in the same league as a BMW, silly to keep bringing them up.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:25 am
If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.
For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge within this segment.
October 4, 2012, 9:31 am
The proper way to look at this is that a $500 a month lease is the expectation for a luxury car in this segment. Any brand offering something similar for $350 isn't offering a true luxury car. Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, not in the same league as a BMW, silly to keep bringing them up.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:32 am
October 4, 2012, 9:38 am
October 4, 2012, 9:48 am
The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.
Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
October 4, 2012, 10:05 am
I think there are a lot of factors at play:
- competition
- pricing
- gloom and doom talk about the economy
- housing downturn (people who might have stretched for a premium vehicle won't now)
For me I still love my E90 and am awaiting the new 1 or 2 series offering since I want something smaller. If I had to buy today it would probably be an A3.
October 4, 2012, 10:45 am
The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.
Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
Additionally, the US release of the E90 was delayed 3 months from the European launch and XDrive was available from the start. There was no apparent dumping of E46 loaners either. Just too many variables to find the easy smoking gun here.
If we're looking for commonalities, during both the E90 and F30 transitions, in the first 9-12 months the 3 Series had three consecutive quarters of sales drop with two of them in double digits, the Coupe/Vert/Wagon nosediving badly in anticipation of a new bodystyle.
The alarms can sound with the March 2013 quarterly report as that will show the complete first year of F30 sales and the first six months of XDrive models.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 11:03 am
The 3 series' US sales numbers after the first 3 quarters of 2007 was 97039 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2006's YTD sales figures, the 3 series' gain was +24.7%. Lets compare that to last month's sales number: The current 3 series' US sales numbers after the 1st 3 quarters of 2012 was 68352 unit year to date and compare to the Sep 2011's sales figures, the 3 series' current YTD sales numbers are negative 3.1%compare to the prior year.
Furthermore, let’s take a look at the market share between the 3 series vs. the C class, A4 and the Infinite G. In Sep 2007, BMW 3 series sold 97039 unit YTD, A4, 29469 YTD, Infiniti G, 47132 and the C class, 36184. The 3 series had a 46% US market share in Sep 2007. Lets compare that to today’s market share, BMW 3 series sold 68352 unit YTD in Sep 2012, A4, 41235 YTD, Infiniti G, 46034 and the C class, 57740. The current 3 series' US market share is down to 32%.
October 4, 2012, 11:28 am
October 4, 2012, 11:44 am
October 4, 2012, 12:38 pm
October 4, 2012, 12:58 pm
The F30 is clearly the most fun to drive in the category. My ranking:
328
G37
A4
C
But it should not be counted in the luxury category since the interior is really cheap looking (even with the luxury line trim).
From a fun to drive aspect, the F30 was the only car that instantly brought a smile. The g37 is almost as good but too much road/engine noise inside and that would bother me after awhile.
October 4, 2012, 1:10 pm
328
G37
A4
C
But it should not be counted in the luxury category since the interior is really cheap looking (even with the luxury line trim).
From a fun to drive aspect, the F30 was the only car that instantly brought a smile. The g37 is almost as good but too much road/engine noise inside and that would bother me after awhile.
Now I had driven an ATS, I can say it is more fun than F30. The ATS has several misses of its own, so I say they both are equal, and above the rest.
October 4, 2012, 1:19 pm
They woke up, invested effort in making the C a non-boring and aesthetically hot looking car, and took away E90 sales. I don't look at that as a BMW failure; I look at that as MB waking up from a coma and washing the stupid off its face. BMW stole MB sales for a decade, they woke up, took it back. Nothing BMW can do about a competitor deciding to not be stupid anymore.
As relates to the F30, it's now the hot new car with the C getting long in the tooth and overexposed. Luxury status-symbols for the $100K crowd are always influenced by style, technology, and newness, and where MB won on comfort, that's been addressed too.
Any non-niche-enthusiast whose driven an F30 knows its a remarkable car, a quantum leap ahead of the E90, a big distance ahead of the C, certainly the best 3 Series ever. Since that group represents 95% of the buyers in that segment, there is no issue here.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 1:27 pm
The 2014 Mercedes CLA promises to add a little competition to the segment...
October 4, 2012, 1:32 pm
BJ
However to say there is really nothing BMW could do?
October 4, 2012, 2:15 pm
Based on the numbers posted by X Men it appears that for the time peiods cited the market grew slightly and the 3 Series lost sales and market share to Audi and Mercedes who both showed significant gains while Infiniti was relatively stagnant, and in fact was down slightly,
October 4, 2012, 2:40 pm
328
G37
A4
C
328i
Lexus IS300
A4
C
But ended up buying a '95 325i, which was even more fun when I test drove it.
don't remember driving any Nissan products.
October 4, 2012, 2:57 pm
October 4, 2012, 3:32 pm
Is it possible that, after 5 pages and 118 posts, we've finally arrived at the answer to the original question in this thread?
October 4, 2012, 3:58 pm
The above only compared 4 models, the Lexus IS was not included. The Acura TL is also in this segment. Believe it or not, Buick Verano has done very well as a new entry, moving 4k to 5k units in the last months. Although not entirely a direct competitor, I think it had easily grabbed some market share from every entry above.
October 4, 2012, 4:05 pm
My neighbor across the street who had a E46 330i, had gotten into an accident and totaled it. He came home with a brand new Infiniti G Sedan (non S).
I asked him why he jumped ship from BMW, he's the type that did all his own maintenance. He said they're too pricey for him, just thought I'd share since it seemed relevant to this thread...
I've seen the other threads about pricing historically being similar, yada yada yada. But truth be told, the car just came out, and a lot of the new ones on the lot are loaded up way above 45k+ range.
Chris
October 4, 2012, 4:11 pm
October 4, 2012, 4:21 pm
Considering most people lease, i was quoted 615 for an audi a4 and my 328 is currently 570. both same price no money down.
I was looking at the c350 about 5 years ago and they quoted me 795. i laughed all the way out the dealer lol.
Will be interesting to see what the real lease on a nicely equipped ats is.
October 4, 2012, 4:36 pm
On a 2-yr basis, the relative winners are the ES and C while the losers are the G and 3-series.
Relative share
Sep10 Sep12 Diff. Model
12% 18% 6% ES
16% 22% 5% C
8% 9% 1% TL
8% 8% 1% A4
8% 6% -1% IS
14% 10% -4% G
28% 21% -7% 3
October 4, 2012, 5:14 pm
CA
October 4, 2012, 5:19 pm
Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.
With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
October 4, 2012, 5:39 pm
Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.
With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
There was no real tq steer, especially compared to my Saab back ground.
My car with a $30k sticker was negotiated to $23,500, which was 4 cylinder Accord money. Leases were as low as $229 when the F30 was no lower than $359. You are talking about a 30% difference in price.
Residual value was not so bad as I purchased at $23,500 and sold for $14,500 with 53k to the first person who saw it(sold it stock, all mods shown in pics were sold separate).
Some pics of what I sold to get the F30:
Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.
October 4, 2012, 5:43 pm
If reliability had not been so bad, I would still have mine.
October 4, 2012, 5:43 pm
328i
Lexus IS300
A4
C
But ended up buying a '95 325i, which was even more fun when I test drove it.
don't remember driving any Nissan products.
F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.
I asked him why he jumped ship from BMW, he's the type that did all his own maintenance. He said they're too pricey for him, just thought I'd share since it seemed relevant to this thread...
I've seen the other threads about pricing historically being similar, yada yada yada. But truth be told, the car just came out, and a lot of the new ones on the lot are loaded up way above 45k+ range.
Chris
October 4, 2012, 6:18 pm
However to say there is really nothing BMW could do?
There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.
It's a model transition, nothing more. When the whole 3 line is done in 2013/14 BMW will trump MB again until their redesign. It's a cycle. Been going on for decades. MB decided to get serious in the segment, finally. Took back market share that was always there for the taking.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 6:59 pm
Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.
In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.
And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;
As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.
October 4, 2012, 7:45 pm
There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.
...
BJ
I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned
October 4, 2012, 7:51 pm
In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.
And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;
As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.
Sorry, I rounded up
MSRP was something like $28,500 or so. It was during an employee pricing event.
A couple of months ago I was getting emails of 2-3 local VW dealers offering the CC for $229. VW's offer was $299, so it was being bettered at the dealer level.
Before the CC I had leaseda Jetta SE with a $21k sticker for $129 a month, again, about $100 less a month than the VW national campaign.
I see your Intrepid example and well, I am not going to whip out the E-pen as knowing better for coming from an car design back-ground, but it's a bit silly. In certain colors, if the architecture is the same(i.e, black FWD sedan) you can try and build a case that any car can look like or remind someone of another.
Fact is, the CC at launch was nearly universally heralded as a very clean, very appealing design.
Your opinion is valid, it's your own. But your dis-like of the CC's looks puts you in the minority.
October 4, 2012, 8:13 pm
Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.
October 4, 2012, 8:23 pm
It was one of those "employee pricing for all" events.
As I said, I did not like the'13 CC or Vw reliability and also got plenty of rebates on the 3.
October 4, 2012, 8:24 pm
October 4, 2012, 8:29 pm
October 4, 2012, 8:42 pm
Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.
With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.
October 4, 2012, 8:45 pm
From my recent drives at the BMW F30 Olympics driving event (street driving):
F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.
No.
As soon as I read your first two sentences my thought was, "that was a money decision."
For a good number of buyers in this segment for whom fwd is not an issue the TL is a competitor, just as the fwd A4 is. There are a few buyers in this segment who find the Verano a pleasing choice. The styling is good, the price is good, fwd is not an issue for them, they like being a part of Buick's new direction and GM's recovery.
October 4, 2012, 8:46 pm
I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned
The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.
Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 8:48 pm
The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.
Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 8:50 pm
October 4, 2012, 8:52 pm
He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.
This thread in particular you may find interesting:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233
I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 8:52 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:06 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:08 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:12 pm
When there is a quote above my post, that means i am directing my comment at that person...
my comment was in response to this:
"Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC."
neither voip or myself were talking about you...
October 4, 2012, 9:15 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:17 pm
the CC is like a german TL
October 4, 2012, 9:18 pm
He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.
This thread in particular you may find interesting:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233
I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.
BJ
According to Jon, BMW is providing some real good trunk money on the F30s this month. We will see how the next several months look like. It will be a real battle in this segment.
October 4, 2012, 9:24 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:27 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:31 pm
He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.
This thread in particular you may find interesting:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233
I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:31 pm
He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.
This thread in particular you may find interesting:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233
I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:32 pm
According to Jon, BMW is providing some real good trunk money on the F30s this month. We will see how the next several months look like. It will be a real battle in this segment.
Your purpose here is clear. Please stop harassing the F30 owners and those truly interested in it's success. All you care about is it's failure.
Appreciate your cooperation.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:33 pm
BJ
October 4, 2012, 9:37 pm
October 4, 2012, 9:41 pm
The Maxima is a CC competitor too. Pass.
October 4, 2012, 10:11 pm
October 4, 2012, 10:24 pm
Your purpose here is clear. Please stop harassing the F30 owners and those truly interested in it's success. All you care about is it's failure.
Appreciate your cooperation.
BJ
October 4, 2012, 10:27 pm
October 4, 2012, 11:19 pm
BJ
October 4, 2012, 11:24 pm
BJ
October 4, 2012, 11:56 pm
My 2011 includes the following: 6-speed manual transmission, leather seats (ZVP value package), Xenon headlights, HK stereo system, heated seats, etc. My 2011 does NOT include the Premium Package, or any other major package options (except ZVP). The 2013 to which I am comparing my car has exactly the same options (as near to identical as allowed by the BMW USA website). No Premium Package or Lines are a part of this comparison.
I am not saying that this will necessarily prevent me from buying an F30. Nonetheless, the increase in the MSRP is staggering.
October 5, 2012, 1:27 am
My 2011 includes the following: 6-speed manual transmission, leather seats (ZVP value package), Xenon headlights, HK stereo system, heated seats, etc. My 2011 does NOT include the Premium Package, or any other major package options (except ZVP). The 2013 to which I am comparing my car has exactly the same options (as near to identical as allowed by the BMW USA website). No Premium Package or Lines are a part of this comparison.
I am not saying that this will necessarily prevent me from buying an F30. Nonetheless, the increase in the MSRP is staggering.
What's not reflected anywhere is the pull-ahead program with 2 months of lease forgiveness, the $1000 test drive, the $300 BMW app credit, and the usual throw-in's like heated seats or winter mats. Added up, I got close to $2,100 in discounts. The MSRP reflected on BMWUSA.com is misleading. My configuration there shows a $600 monthly payment. I'm paying $539.
BJ
October 5, 2012, 5:32 am
Lots of good comments here with the exception of the comment of the E93 looking "tired and stale". I will put the looks of my 2013 red vert against the new sedan any time. That isnt meant to be a bash on the F30 as I do like the F30 and would happily have one if I needed a sedan. But I don't
The F30 is a change with the times and any kinks real or perceived will be worked out. The knocks against the four are being shortsighted. CAFE is here to stay. My favorite BMW still today was my first one, a 1979 320 which was a four cylinder.
Just wanted to say a lot of us E9x owners like the F30 as well, so no need to throw knocks at us or our "tired and stale" cars.
October 5, 2012, 5:33 am
Lots of good comments here with the exception of the comment of the E93 looking "tired and stale". I will put the looks of my 2013 red vert against the new sedan any time. That isnt meant to be a bash on the F30 as I do like the F30 and would happily have one if I needed a sedan. But I don't
The F30 is a change with the times and any kinks real or perceived will be worked out. The knocks against the four are being shortsighhted. CAFE is here to stay. My favorite BMW still today was my first one, a 1979 320 which was a four cylinder.
Just wanted to say a lot of us E9x owners like the F30 as well, so no need to throw knocks at us or our "tired and stale" cars.
October 5, 2012, 7:03 am
Has anyone factored in X1 and X3 sales? These have becomes reasonable alternatives to the 3 series at this point.
October 5, 2012, 7:20 am
If a car has being the same look for very long, in the case of the E90, 8 years, AND there are so many of them you see the same look many times a day, yes it can be "tired and stale". I like the look of E90, but totally understand it when people say the above.
On the other hand, many people, even those who drive BMWs, when look at the F30, often mistaken it for the F10 5 series. I wouldn't call such look "refreshing and exciting" when your own enthusiasts cannot tell what it is, it lacks creativity when you simply shrink a 5 down to 3.
If look is the only measure, the "tired and stale" but refreshed C (and maybe even A4) win over the new F30, if for nothing else, the styling stands on its own.
October 5, 2012, 7:39 am
I had a very interesting conversation with my CA yesterday. he called to make arrangements for delivery and for me to setup insurance etc. I asked him how well are the F30's selling. he said not as good as they thought, and here is the interesting part. He said he could probably move every 335i he could lay his hands on but the 328i there are plenty on the lots. He thought it maybe the fact that this is the first 4-cylinder 3-series in a while. He added most people are like you man, when they go with some of the options they don't see why not spend the extra 4k and go with the 335i. Thus they are very short on 335i on the lots and the allocation for them is hard to get.
After that conversation I think some of us have it dead on. BWM would be buyers will need to get over the 4-cylinder stigma and BMW has not done a great job with advertising the car. I mean I wonder how many buyers out there know the 4-cylinder is a lot more powerful than the N52 it replaces and super economical to boot. Add the fact that just a few options and a package takes the car north of 45K fast and there you have it.
As for the "tired and stall" comment for the E9x models that is total BS. The reason why it may seem this way is because they are everywhere. I mean where I live if I had one I would see myself coming and going every 15th car.
October 5, 2012, 7:53 am
Any statement with a valid reason behind it, by definition cannot be a total BS. This is not an opinion, rather a statement of fact
The reason 335i is short in supply is likely because they don't build many. BMW needs the 328i to meet CAFE, this is rather a unique issue with BMW in this segment, they don't have non-luxury subsidiaries with economy models to help meeting CAFE.
The 4 bangers are well received by the C and A4 buyers. Maybe BMW drivers are more demanding, but I still say it is more a production issue. They cannot build too many, therefore they don't have enough to sell.
October 5, 2012, 8:03 am
The reason 335i is short in supply is likely because they don't build many. BMW needs the 328i to meet CAFE, this is rather a unique issue with BMW in this segment, they don't have non-luxury subsidiaries with economy models to help meeting CAFE.
The 4 bangers are well received by the C and A4 buyers. Maybe BMW drivers are more demanding, but I still say it is more a production issue. They cannot build too many, therefore they don't have enough to sell.
October 5, 2012, 8:09 am
Having said that, I am reminded that the 335i is very close to 328i in mpg ratings. Then my speculation could be a total BS.
October 5, 2012, 8:21 am
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.
Retail was about $36,500.00.
A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
October 5, 2012, 8:23 am
October 5, 2012, 8:27 am
If a car has being the same look for very long, in the case of the E90, 8 years, AND there are so many of them you see the same look many times a day, yes it can be "tired and stale". I like the look of E90, but totally understand it when people say the above.
On the other hand, many people, even those who drive BMWs, when look at the F30, often mistaken it for the F10 5 series. I wouldn't call such look "refreshing and exciting" when your own enthusiasts cannot tell what it is, it lacks creativity when you simply shrink a 5 down to 3.
If look is the only measure, the "tired and stale" but refreshed C (and maybe even A4) win over the new F30, if for nothing else, the styling stands on its own.
I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.
October 5, 2012, 8:28 am
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.
Retail was about $36,500.00.
A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
October 5, 2012, 8:35 am
October 5, 2012, 8:35 am
I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.
At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?
Maybe you don't care about the looks as much as how it drives, and I share the same view with you, but I am not so arrogant to say it does not matter as long as I don't care. Apparently many others do care.
Since you view driving dynamics as paramount, have you driven an ATS and try to push it on the bends and at the corners? Too bad the ATS manual is no good, and you want a manual, but most people will buy auto, not manual. The ATS 6sp auto is more fun than the 8sp.
If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.
October 5, 2012, 8:49 am
At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?
If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.
October 5, 2012, 8:57 am
I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.
But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...because believe it or not, E90 will not be on my next shopping list.
October 5, 2012, 9:10 am
I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.
But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...
October 5, 2012, 9:15 am
What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.
To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.
Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value, to you. Should I complain about your negativity?
October 5, 2012, 9:31 am
What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.
To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.
Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value. Should I complain about your negativity?
October 5, 2012, 9:43 am
I was talking to the dealer and I heard similar comments about plenty of 328 inventory and great deals if you want to buy one. What was surprising is that the 5-series has less inventory/supply.
October 5, 2012, 9:53 am
October 5, 2012, 10:05 am
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.
Retail was about $36,500.00.
A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.
These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.
This is just how it goes.
About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.
This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.
I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.
It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
October 5, 2012, 10:18 am
Lets move on please because we have taken this thread way OT. Let's get back to the far fetched reasons the F30 may be losing market share based on a 6 month sample and lack of x-drive until very recently.
I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.
October 5, 2012, 10:26 am
These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.
This is just how it goes.
About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.
This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.
I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.
It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.
October 5, 2012, 10:30 am
Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.
October 5, 2012, 11:04 am
I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.
I don't know about the CC, while I think it is a nice looking car, it is not in the same segment. If I am considering a VW, in other words status is no longer a consideration, I'd go with a Golf GTI, more fun and more practical.
October 5, 2012, 11:06 am
Having said that, I am reminded that the 335i is very close to 328i in mpg ratings. Then my speculation could be a total BS.
October 5, 2012, 11:11 am
October 5, 2012, 11:21 am
It's a BIG GTI. They share a lot in common. The CC is only 120lbs heavier than a 5dr GTI.
GTI has a whole other persona. If I had only one car and wanted it to be sporty and youthful, yeah GTI is a good choice.
But as a DD to a sports car(which is my situation), the CC is a very good choice. CC vs 3 series. It's a bit of an off comparo the minute you compare a FWD car to RWD. I will say I loved my CC and would not have the 3 if not for the cruddy reliability I experienced.
October 5, 2012, 11:23 am
October 5, 2012, 11:29 am
October 5, 2012, 11:35 am
October 5, 2012, 11:44 am
October 5, 2012, 11:47 am
Not sure if your trying to be a troll but you are.
October 5, 2012, 11:52 am
October 5, 2012, 11:54 am
October 5, 2012, 11:54 am
These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.
This is just how it goes.
About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.
This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.
I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.
It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.
And it really worked for awhile.
With the updated standard equipment in the 2013 F30 (but at a higher MSRP) I do not see the Value Package happening again, IMO.
October 5, 2012, 11:56 am
October 5, 2012, 11:56 am
Never seen someone so mad that they got a 2011. It's so obvious the guy has to put down the F30 to make himself feel better about his purchase lol.
October 5, 2012, 11:59 am
If I decide that a VW works for me after my BMW lease ends I will look at both the CC and GTI especially the next generation GTI. The CC us a bit more grown up than the GTI. Also, I didn't realize the CC still offered a MT which is what I'd choose.
October 5, 2012, 12:28 pm
100% correct.
So either you conclude BMW was clueless, or something else is at play.
October 5, 2012, 12:30 pm
October 5, 2012, 12:49 pm
And it really worked for awhile.
With the updated standard equipment in the 2013 F30 (but at a higher MSRP) I do not see the Value Package happening again, IMO.
I do not care that BMW had not had to do a value package before. The point is, they did for the E90.
Whether they call it a VP again, dunno, doesn't matter.
They will add more features as standard that increase value in a larger relation to increase in price, that is the nature of a car being around for 5 years.
Now granted, they raised the price, but just from '12-13 we got the standard power seats and split folding rear seat, maybe a couple of other small changes.
As this car ages, more things will be added as standard, option packages will be re-structured, and prices will go up very little increasing the value proposition.
BMW is not immune to this strategy.
October 5, 2012, 12:58 pm
It also has to do with market share and competition. If the value package had proven a winning strategy last year, the first time it was used, then it could easily be used again.
Personally I'd love to see a free or some option credit on the m sport package
October 5, 2012, 1:03 pm
So either you conclude BMW was clueless, or something else is at play.
October 5, 2012, 1:20 pm
I do not care that BMW had not had to do a value package before. The point is, they did for the E90.
Whether they call it a VP again, dunno, doesn't matter.
They will add more features as standard that increase value in a larger relation to increase in price, that is the nature of a car being around for 5 years.
Now granted, they raised the price, but just from '12-13 we got the standard power seats and split folding rear seat, maybe a couple of other small changes.
As this car ages, more things will be added as standard, option packages will be re-structured, and prices will go up very little increasing the value proposition.
BMW is not immune to this strategy.
October 5, 2012, 1:22 pm
October 5, 2012, 1:25 pm
I have only had calm, well presented info in this thread.
Careful what you say or assumptions you make on the interweb to complete strangers on a car forum.
October 5, 2012, 1:27 pm
October 5, 2012, 1:53 pm
October 5, 2012, 2:12 pm
October 5, 2012, 2:13 pm
October 5, 2012, 2:14 pm
It was nice when I went out with my in-laws, "Sorry, we have to take two cars, the CC only seats 4".
October 5, 2012, 2:41 pm
October 5, 2012, 2:51 pm
By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
October 5, 2012, 2:55 pm
By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
October 5, 2012, 3:09 pm
October 5, 2012, 3:13 pm
By the way CAFE is calculated by fleet numbers. If BMW was trying to boost fleet CAFE artificially they would make it hard to get cars that get the worse mileage and sell in good quantities like the 535i, 550i and every 7 series.
As for why, I never made a claim, just a speculation. I even said it could be all wrong. But don't dismiss the facts just because you did not care to learn about them.
You on the other hand made a claim that BMW's 328/335 production allocations are entirely based on consumer demands. You did not even offer any factual support, just a statement.
October 5, 2012, 3:17 pm
CAFE is about EPA ratings, not consumer actual experience numbers obviously.
Fact is EPA ratings between the N55 and N20 are strikingly close. There is a larger disparity between actual drivers results. But due to EPA rating, I doubt very much BMW would shuffle output on cars with ratings so similar.
October 5, 2012, 3:23 pm
Fact is EPA ratings between the N55 and N20 are strikingly close. There is a larger disparity between actual drivers results. But due to EPA rating, I doubt very much BMW would shuffle output on cars with ratings so similar.
Similarly in Europe, they try to avoid anything larger than 2.0L.
October 5, 2012, 3:27 pm
As for why, I never made a claim, just a speculation. I even said it could be all wrong. But don't dismiss the facts just because you did not care to learn about them.
You on the other hand made a claim that BMW's 328/335 production allocations are entirely based on consumer demands. You did not even offer any factual support, just a statement.
October 5, 2012, 3:52 pm
The dealers don't have enough 335s to sell, yet they have too many 328s on the lot. You insist that BMW allocates 335/328 based on demand. And yet it has been going on ever since the F30 has been released. The reality does not agree with your claim.
October 5, 2012, 4:12 pm
I think that they made a big mistake by dropping the 4.4L
ricosan
October 5, 2012, 4:13 pm
The dealers don't have enough 335s to sell, yet they have too many 328s on the lot. You insist that BMW allocates 335/328 based on demand. And yet it has been going on ever since the F30 has been released. The reality does not agree with your claim.
I don't know why 335's are hard to get at some dealers but it could be any number of reasons any of which are as valid as yours.
October 5, 2012, 4:51 pm
October 5, 2012, 4:54 pm
Because they don't have enough to go around, what other reasons?
I agree that there's not enough to go around but whether or not this is intentional is the question.
I've had enough of this thread so see you in another.
October 5, 2012, 8:01 pm
October 5, 2012, 8:19 pm
Closest to an exception are tdi's. I have friends that have put on tons of miles with no problems. Stellar resale too.
October 5, 2012, 9:46 pm
Is the Bimmerfester community is using bad English? Yes, this has been true for many years, but it's been getting worse by the day. BTW, I am not being rude to Speakers of Other Languages. I have been teaching them for many years, and they work very hard to get the grammar right. It's usually the Native English Speakers who are too lazy and sloppy to follow the rules and respect their readers.
October 5, 2012, 10:19 pm
Now that my rant is done, I read the whole thread (I can't believe i read the whole thread.) Most entertaining thread in years. Thanks, BJ; you certainly have a way of bringing out the zealots. Carry on, group.
October 5, 2012, 10:21 pm
October 5, 2012, 11:01 pm
What's up? Long time no speak. Glad you're doing well while BMW crumbles to the ground, at the mercy of Mercedes Benz and their badass C Class, going to set sports enthusiasm on it's collective ear, going to drive the 3 Series to the wasteland of other automotive failures like the Corvair and the Edsel. It's a fight to the death, I tell you. The death.
BJ
October 7, 2012, 5:06 pm
October 7, 2012, 5:11 pm
October 7, 2012, 5:16 pm
The wheel hopping on curves is almost unavoidable on FWD cars, unless they use some fancy slip differentials.
October 7, 2012, 5:17 pm
If reliability had not been so bad, I would still have mine.
October 7, 2012, 5:21 pm
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful..
As to the CVT, no one considering a 328i would contemplate getting a CVT/FWD, since for just a little more you can get the quattro.
Btwy, AFAIK, the CVT will be no more on the next model. For economy oriented folks, nothing would beat a FWD/manual combo.
October 7, 2012, 5:25 pm
October 7, 2012, 5:28 pm
October 7, 2012, 6:04 pm
As to the CVT, no one considering a 328i would contemplate getting a CVT/FWD, since for just a little more you can get the quattro.
October 7, 2012, 6:22 pm
In my case there was a big price difference between the two. CC was also better looking and rare at the time. Now not so much.
October 7, 2012, 6:35 pm
October 7, 2012, 6:42 pm
October 7, 2012, 6:46 pm
2013 FWD manual CC: 21/25/32 mpg.
From http://www.fueleconomy.gov
But I now see the CC also got a 1mpg highway mpg bump. I acknowledge the difference is minute. But as a side note, once you consider that the A4 quattro has AWD and is lugging around an extra ~300lbs, you realize the difference between the two versions of the 2.0T.
I also realize that most people will probably look at auto transmissions, in which case the combined mpg advantage goes back to the CC by 1mpg if you stick with quattro for the A4.
October 7, 2012, 6:48 pm
October 8, 2012, 12:49 am
for me its simple.
it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".
October 8, 2012, 1:05 am
it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".
The only other influences on F30 first three quarter sales vs. E90 first three quarter sales would be:
F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).
F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).
Mercedes Benz decided to take the C Class more seriously post-2005.
Audi has ramped up its design and advertising more seriously post-2005.
BJ
October 8, 2012, 1:24 am
Surprised to read BJ now adds the competitions on his short list of why.
October 8, 2012, 9:42 am
As soon as the F32 will be back, the F3X should be on top again.
However Mercedes is fighting hard with their refreshed C-Class.
Oh, 4-cyl. turbo + price increase don't compute. Market noticed.
October 8, 2012, 9:56 am
F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).
F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).
And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.
October 8, 2012, 11:09 am
And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.
E90 Launched in US in June 2005 (per BMW)
E90 XDrive Launched Sept 2005 (your recollection)
F30 Launched Worldwide February 2012
F30 XDrive Launched September 2012
The E90 would have had a 3 month lag to XDrive whereas the F30 had a 7 month lag.
BJ
October 8, 2012, 2:09 pm
I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..
1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.
2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.
3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.
4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?
7) So what exactly am i paying for...
a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..
but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.
As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.
October 8, 2012, 2:27 pm
And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)
October 8, 2012, 2:29 pm
And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)
The windows do have a light tint and that is plenty for me. I wouldn't want it any darker.
The car is not perfect, but no car is. Otherwise, we'd all be flocking there.
October 8, 2012, 2:57 pm
1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.
2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.
3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.
4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?
7) So what exactly am i paying for...
a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..
but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.
As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.
Regarding the following points:
3) I've been here almost 5 years and while there are certainly dealer complaints I'd be hard pressed to say BMW dealers are the worst luxury dealers in the US. Personally, my dealer would rate as the best I've ever dealt with.
4) Bundling of options is common in the industry. Try pricing a Cadillac ATS or an Audi A4 or VW GTI.
5) BMW's are very hard to steal. Alarms are more trouble than they are worth.
October 8, 2012, 3:01 pm
October 8, 2012, 7:02 pm
5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.
October 8, 2012, 7:53 pm
Car alarm is so yesterday much like typewriter, 56k modem, tube TV, and so on. I rather pay for BMW Assist & insurance.
October 8, 2012, 7:59 pm
i rather someone run away after hearing my alarm go off than trying to do something when they get in the car. Sure insnare will replace it but then you have to wait 2 months to get another one
October 8, 2012, 8:04 pm
October 9, 2012, 1:01 am
Whether or not the 3 is actually losing market share, price relative to the competition is a factor.
I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.
The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.
Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.
October 9, 2012, 1:17 am
I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.
The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.
Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.
There are areas where BMW could do better such as getting rid of the lines and supporting a more normal ordering process to allow a better choice of colors.
October 9, 2012, 6:53 am
1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.
a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..
but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.
October 9, 2012, 8:03 am
Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.
Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.
As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 8:12 am
I can't speak to that, I didn't see any quality issues with the 3 F30s I test drove. I am getting my car today and will report if I do see anything resembling bad quality control. Maybe you are super unlucky. Compared to American cars the Germans are way ahead in quality build and that says a lot since American cars have come a long way in the quality department.
Explain to her its one bad experience. We all had it one time or another. My worse was with my Subaru where the dealership actually lied to me, and second worse was with Mercedes. If you GF keeps nagging tell her you will change her for a better looking and less talkative model.
I have to agree there with you, the 2012 F30s were the worse as you didn't get a lot unless you got expensive packages. The 2013 F30 was much better and I believe as they go into the 2014 they will have more single choices and probably a few more standard stuff.
It has the immobilizer so I don't understand what you are saying here.
Don't know about the 5 but in the F30 you can shut down the ASS and keep it that way, its something you dealer can do. So this is a non issue on the F30 IMO.
You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.
Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.
I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.
October 9, 2012, 8:17 am
I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.
Saturday, you are almost there bro. I think either Saturday or Sunday we are going to the Annapolis boat show.
yea I read where you posted you saw a taxi. Crazy Vegas man, the last F30 I have seen in Mclean must have been two weeks ago and here you are seeing F30 taxis...LOL
October 9, 2012, 8:25 am
Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.
As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 9:05 am
Power wise, its not a significant difference, according to edmunds:
"The 2012 BMW 328i sweeps both straight-line tests by hitting 60 mph in 5.9 seconds (5.5 seconds using a 1-foot rollout like on a drag strip) and passing through the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 98.9 mph. The A4 is marginally slower to 60 mph at 6.2 seconds (5.9 seconds with rollout) and is a half-second back at the quarter-mile with an effort of 14.6 seconds at 94.1 mph. "
Aa far as BMW's free maintenance for 4 yr/50k, Audicare is the 4 year maintenace plan offer for Audi, it cost about $800.
October 9, 2012, 9:21 am
October 9, 2012, 9:52 am
The only downside I see is the lack of a remote starter as w/ all BMW's and this is only because I live in New England. Other than that, I can live w/ the car just fine.
October 9, 2012, 10:16 am
October 9, 2012, 10:16 am
October 9, 2012, 10:21 am
October 9, 2012, 10:33 am
October 9, 2012, 10:49 am
I don't see why that logic would not apply to this 2.0T engine... or, for that matter, any engine.
My understanding is that letting a cold engine idle to temperature is bad due to the oil not circulating very well without the motor operating at something other than idle, resulting in excessive engine wear over time. Basically you have cold oil sitting in the bottom of the engine and at idle it is not doing much else.
October 9, 2012, 11:16 am
I don't see why that logic would not apply to this 2.0T engine... or, for that matter, any engine.
My understanding is that letting a cold engine idle to temperature is bad due to the oil not circulating very well without the motor operating at something other than idle, resulting in excessive engine wear over time. Basically you have cold oil sitting in the bottom of the engine and at idle it is not doing much else.
October 9, 2012, 11:38 am
That is 800 dollars BMW owners don't have to pay...just saying.
October 9, 2012, 12:00 pm
October 9, 2012, 12:04 pm
BJ
October 9, 2012, 12:10 pm
BJ
October 9, 2012, 12:10 pm
October 9, 2012, 12:23 pm
October 9, 2012, 12:24 pm
BJ
October 9, 2012, 12:40 pm
October 9, 2012, 1:02 pm
Now that he has moved on the E90 has lost its status and the car that formerly made Mr. and Mrs. Camry crazy with jealously has been relegated to the scrap heap of tired former status symbols.
October 9, 2012, 1:07 pm
October 9, 2012, 1:16 pm
Now that he has moved on the E90 has lost its status and the car that formerly made Mr. and Mrs. Camry crazy with jealously has been relegated to the scrap heap of tired former status symbols.
Status is subjective. I was merely trying to find more objective points in these discussions, such as whether the F30 and F10 look more alike or not, than say comparing the E90 with E60, or going even back when the 3 series was very distinctively on its own.
I think the tradition of individuality has gradually given way to the need to conform to the greatest masses.
October 9, 2012, 2:05 pm
The Audi pre-paid maintenance does NOT include parts other than oil, oil filter,etc. so as the car gets older and parts wear out like brakes you are stuck with the bill. The Audi MMI System is quite inferior to the iDrive system.
October 9, 2012, 2:14 pm
October 9, 2012, 2:19 pm
October 9, 2012, 2:25 pm
The world wide numbers came out today for BMW, including the F30 3 series -
"The BMW 3 Series achieved sales of 39,302 vehicles last month (prev. yr. 35,842/ +9.7%)"
More details - http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=650802
The way I read that is that sales in the US might be down for reasons I'm sure have been discussed in the thread already but that overall BMW F30 sales are up.
Tim
October 9, 2012, 2:48 pm
I can easily see the F30 selling well in places like China, where status, luxury and comfort are very important attributes. Since China is now the largest market, I see automakers cater to their taste more, and may not pay as much attention to the US market as in the past.
October 9, 2012, 2:56 pm
October 9, 2012, 4:14 pm
October 9, 2012, 4:43 pm
Even before tensions grew between the Chinese and Japanese, the Chinese preferred German. Now I'd hate to be a Lexus sales rep.
October 9, 2012, 5:18 pm
Even before tensions grew between the Chinese and Japanese, the Chinese preferred German. Now I'd hate to be a Lexus sales rep.
I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
October 9, 2012, 5:23 pm
"The BMW 3 Series achieved sales of 39,302 vehicles last month (prev. yr. 35,842/ +9.7%)"
The way I read that is that sales in the US might be down for reasons I'm sure have been discussed in the thread already but that overall BMW F30 sales are up.
Tim
BJ
October 9, 2012, 5:30 pm
I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
October 9, 2012, 6:01 pm
I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
Even doing business there I try to keep tabs on protest activity not that it's been a problem for foreigners...yet.
October 9, 2012, 6:08 pm
October 9, 2012, 6:27 pm
I read today that Japanese car sales is down almost 50% in China and things will likely get worst for the Japanese auto makers. I am not picking sides here but it seems to me the Japanese have a lot more to lose in this island dispute than the Chinese does.
Not to mention that giving up those islands to China is sending a signal to China that they can continue to push on other things, like Taiwan without protest from Japan or their proxy, the US.
October 9, 2012, 6:43 pm
If Lexus and Infiniti can't sell in China, maybe they will try to sell more in the US by shipping more units and cutting price more?
Camry half price special, anyone?
October 9, 2012, 7:40 pm
I had noticed I don't see many F30's and when I asked my local dealer a few months ago they made a VERY good point ... they were't ordering as many of them until the Xdrive came out.
Now that the xdrive is available i am betting you will see a lot more of them on the road especially here in the Northeast.
October 9, 2012, 9:33 pm
BJ
October 9, 2012, 9:36 pm
Me, I'm looking for a sway bar. I hear they're most readily found in boxes of Cocoa Puffs.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 10:27 pm
Well.....BMW Canada has introduced a lower priced model, the Classic, which lists for $39,990. Unfortunately, it is available in an automatic only and sport seats and suspension are not available which rules it out for me.
October 9, 2012, 11:12 pm
October 10, 2012, 9:31 am
Not to mention that giving up those islands to China is sending a signal to China that they can continue to push on other things, like Taiwan without protest from Japan or their proxy, the US.
October 10, 2012, 10:03 am
October 10, 2012, 10:08 am
As always, Japan's timing is incredibly poor, giving Chinese nationalism an excuse to fire up during their own economic slowdown. Japanese companies are begging their government to cut the crap, they're getting crushed.
Regardless, European and American car companies are benefitting.
October 10, 2012, 11:17 am
October 10, 2012, 11:34 am
Where is our display of nationalism, consider that both Japan and Germany were at war with the US?
October 10, 2012, 1:00 pm
The Chinese government is pretty smart. With China and Japan the second and third largest world economies they can't afford continuing escalations. Japan has even more incentive to avoid conflict insofar as they can't defend themselves and we sure aren't going to do it.
Look for compromise and diplomatic solutions, achieved slowly and carefully so as to preserve face.
October 10, 2012, 1:05 pm
October 10, 2012, 1:13 pm
Just be sure not to forget tissues.
October 10, 2012, 1:33 pm
The Chinese government is pretty smart. With China and Japan the second and third largest world economies they can't afford continuing escalations. Japan has even more incentive to avoid conflict insofar as they can't defend themselves and we sure aren't going to do it.
Look for compromise and diplomatic solutions, achieved slowly and carefully so as to preserve face.
BTW, China has risen so much there is no looking back, the advances in infrastructures there were mind boggling after two trips there ten years apart. They can only defeat themselves in their own game.
October 10, 2012, 1:34 pm
October 10, 2012, 1:49 pm
Just be sure not to forget tissues.
animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
October 10, 2012, 1:55 pm
animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
October 10, 2012, 2:15 pm
I've been to Hong Kong and Shenzhen once a year for 15 years and my biggest issue is avoiding the karaoke clubs and massage facilities. I just can't say 'no' at the fruit plate and the US dollar just goes too far.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 2:30 pm
October 10, 2012, 2:33 pm
.
October 10, 2012, 2:42 pm
animal or vegetable was my first question. I also refused to eat anything that was able to look back at me lol.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 2:52 pm
With proper diplomacy all around it's hard to imagine how the 1,2 and 3 biggest economies of he world would get into it, even in recession. That said, the ex pats and I are all businessmen who see things through economics. History amongst the three countries is a little bit of a sticky wicket.
October 10, 2012, 2:59 pm
BTW, depending on where it is, things are no longer cheap. In fact many Chinese there consider real estate here cheap and buy with cash left and right.
October 10, 2012, 3:43 pm
October 10, 2012, 3:54 pm
LOL. How are you able to handle the beautiful young ladies who will do anything to have you bring them back to the US with you? So far I've managed to stay strong.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 3:59 pm
Ha. I have a story from a good friend that went to Taiwan a few times on business that would explain this to a T (girlfriend at the time set limits which he ended up going past because he didn't want to hurt the feelings of the young lady). However, it is not a story that should be shared on a public forum.
All I know is I hope BJs actual US Wife (#1) doesn't read his forum posts. LOL.
October 10, 2012, 4:07 pm
October 10, 2012, 4:10 pm
BJ
Since the mainlanders can't readily go to Hong Kong but the HK guys can pass through at will, it must be nice for them to know their gf-s can't follow them home.
October 10, 2012, 4:19 pm
I don't remember seeing a single attractive woman in Hong Kong, was there twice. Nothing like Shanghai or Taiwan.
Hong Kong is really a completely different place than mainland China and we're talking mainland. That said, there is no shortage of both beautiful and ugly in both places depending upon where you look.
October 10, 2012, 4:36 pm
Hong Kong is really a completely different place than mainland China and we're talking mainland. That said, there is no shortage of both beautiful and ugly in both places depending upon where you look.
China spends a lot true... but if you look at, for example, all of the NATO countries excluding the US, they combined still have more military spending than China does.
No question that China is on a path towards replacing the former USSR as the chief military that the US will concentrate on countering later on this century.
And.... we are now seriously off topic and I'm one of the principal offenders. My apologies to the OP and others who want to discuss BMW market share.
October 10, 2012, 6:09 pm
BJ
I have a unique job as Industial Designer, sometimes I am at an nice office complex working with their engineers, but much of the time I am in their filthy factories sort of doing QA on the assembly line. Most of my meals were at the factory which looks very much like a concentration camp at lunch time.
October 10, 2012, 6:23 pm
I have a unique job as Industial Designer, sometimes I am at an nice office complex working with their engineers, but much of the time I am in their filthy factories sort of doing QA on the assembly line. Most of my meals were at the factory which looks very much like a concentration camp at lunch time.
Young women were beautiful and trendy too, very westernized. One thing I noticed, not a single one of them was overweight or plus size
October 10, 2012, 8:06 pm
Young women were beautiful and trendy too, very westernized. One thing I noticed, not a single one of them was overweight or plus size
Wine is a different story and usually not worth getting at all. Most I've gotten is not only expensive but poorly stored.
October 10, 2012, 9:41 pm
Wine is a different story and usually not worth getting at all. Most I've gotten is not only expensive but poorly stored.
In Shanghai we visited an old friend of my dad several times. They were school buddies before the communists took over. After 40 years he went back found his childhood buddy. The guy was an iron man, locked up by the communists several times for the most part of the 40 years but lived to tell.
Since we were familiar with Shanghai, we sought out many eating places, from upscale to hole in the wall kind. Ten years ago it was cheap, but now I can honestly say we never found a place we could eat "pretty well" for 20 RMB per person.
I agree with you about the wine. There were places that knew how to store and serve wine, but they were upscale and very expensive. After we got back, went to or local favorite wine tasting diner, had some real good wine and a nice meal, for half what we spent in a similar quality place in Shanghai.
October 10, 2012, 9:58 pm
In Shanghai we visited an old friend of my dad several times. They were school buddies before the communists took over. After 40 years he went back found his childhood buddy. The guy was an iron man, locked up by the communists several times for the most part of the 40 years but lived to tell.
Since we were familiar with Shanghai, we sought out many eating places, from upscale to hole in the wall kind. Ten years ago it was cheap, but now I can honestly say we never found a place we could eat "pretty well" for 20 RMB per person.
I agree with you about the wine. There were places that knew how to store and serve wine, but they were upscale and very expensive. After we got back, went to or local favorite wine tasting diner, had some real good wine and a nice meal, for half what we spent in a similar quality place in Shanghai.
October 10, 2012, 11:43 pm
No question that China is on a path towards replacing the former USSR as the chief military that the US will concentrate on countering later on this century.
One incident in particular was due to a trend years ago to use cheap launch services from Russia and China. If I remember right, of four satellites launched by Chinese rockets, two ended in the wrong orbits. It was blamed on the lack of accuracy of their guidance system. So Honeywell's system was given to them with the promise that they will use it only for commercial rockets. of course, they immediately ended up in their ICBMs. There are already untold numbers of ICBMs aimed at California and I am sure by now many other places in the US.