E90 loaner... I really miss my F30
So, my dealership has given me an E90 loaner today as they have a laundry list of items to take care of with my F30 including fixing a stubborn squeak in the console as well as giving the car a fresh detailing and giving me a heavily discounted window tint job.
Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.
The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.
The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.
The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.
The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.
All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.
The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.
The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.
The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.
The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.
All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
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October 9, 2012, 2:01 pm
Keep in mind your F30 probably cost $10K+ more than the E90. Also, keep in mind that you are comparing a loaded sport package F30 with dynamic suspension to a strip down E90. The F30 is a nicer car than the E90 in some areas, but rather if the F30 is worth the additional premium, that is for one to decide.
October 9, 2012, 2:03 pm
My criteria and that of other buyers will not be the same. However, I do believe that I am in the targeted demographic that BMW is after with the F30. Someone who wants a luxury sedan that is at the same time quite sporty.
October 9, 2012, 2:03 pm
Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.
Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
October 9, 2012, 2:04 pm
I haven't driven an F30 but it appears that in many respects it is a step forward from the E90, which it should be since it is a 7 year newer design. My biggest gripe with my E93 which I was able to solve (with no help from BMW I might add) was the harshness of the very poorly sorted out sports suspension and the OEM RFTs. It appears that issue has been greatly reduced, if not eliminated with the F30. As for the transmission I would like to compare an E9x with the ZF transmission (in other words a 335i) to an F30 with the 8 Speed. I found the 6 speed ZF to be a very good transmission but that does not mean there was no room for improvement and I have heard nothing but praise for the 8 Speed ZF. As far as noise goes my 335i is very quiet with the top up. I think the noise you are referring to may be due to the tires.
CA
October 9, 2012, 2:10 pm
Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
October 9, 2012, 2:11 pm
I have had some descent seat time with an E90 328i loaner when I take my X5 for service. Maybe the manuals are more fun but I am yet to be convinced that the e90 328i is more fun to drive than the g37.
October 9, 2012, 2:18 pm
The other thing I should mention is that the F30 328i was a quantum leap from the E90 328i. Less so for the 335i.
The new 328i convinced me I didn't need what the 335i had to offer. I don't think the same comparison in the E90 could be made.
October 9, 2012, 2:21 pm
I never found the steering in the E9x to be overly stiff and neither did my wife. I think the steering feel is one of the best attibutes of he car. While I may not object to the fact that the F30 has lighter steering (won't know until I try one) at this point it is not something that I would look for. I also happen to like the E9x cup holders.
CA
October 9, 2012, 2:30 pm
Gotta agree VN. I will say I love the feel of the steering on the E90. Overall, it's an excellent car. But now that I've adapted to the steering of the F30 I prefer it.
October 9, 2012, 2:46 pm
Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.
The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.
The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.
The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.
The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.
All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.
CA
The ZF 8AT is in another league all together from the ZF 6AT in the E9x. It is just an outstanding piece of engineering technology.
October 9, 2012, 3:01 pm
The response from my friends who have all had a non-sport, automatic E90 328i to my car is "Wow, this car is actually good when it has a manual!"
I haven't driven an F30 yet, but I would imagine that the same difference is there between a stripped 328i and one that's well equipped, as mentioned above. The E90's xDrive system was garbage IMO, and giving that up was a quantum leap for me.
Also, the E90 cupholder is great (the hole where the iDrive knob would go, had I ordered it plus a coozie around my drink
October 9, 2012, 3:08 pm
Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.
CA, I think you are too broad in calling the E9x sport suspension not well sorted. You yourself say you were very pleased with it in Florida. I think it would be more accurate and fair to say it was not designed for the streets of Manhattan. For the most part I have very few issues driving my sport suspension equipped E90 around the streets of Chicago. A few more issues than driving in Fort Worth, Texas, but not many.
The ZF 8AT is in another league all together from the ZF 6AT in the E9x. It is just an outstanding piece of engineering technology.
Belive it or not I rarely drive on the streets of Manhattan although on the few occaisions that I did the car was borderline undrivable. The E93 is a weekend car and is only used to get in and out of the city.
I had issues and pothole explosions on Route 46 in New Jersey, in Stamford, Ct, on route 95, on the Grand Central Parkway, an Interstate off-ramp in upstate New York on the way to Watkins Glen, in Putney, Vt. and scores of other places.
On the roads I regularly take through Western Ct. on the way from NYC to Lakeville, CT the rear end would bounce around and step out on bumpy curves. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a well sorted out suspension.
CA
October 9, 2012, 3:19 pm
Belive it or not I rarely drive on the streets of Manhattan although on the few occaisions that I did the car was borderline undrivable. The E93 is a weekend car and is only used to get in and out of the city.
I had issues and pothole explosions on Route 46 in New Jersey, in Stamford, Ct, on route 95, on the Grand Central Parkway, an Interstate off-ramp in upstate New York on the way to Watkins Glen, in Putney, Vt. and scores of other places.
On the roads I regularly take through Western Ct. on the way from NYC to Lakeville, CT the rear end would bounce around and step out on bumpy curves. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a well sorted out suspension.
CA
I just completed a 1,100 mile trip on the interstate from Chicago to Fort Worth. I had zero suspension issues.
October 9, 2012, 3:23 pm
CA
October 9, 2012, 3:23 pm
I think this review is an excellent example of personal opinion and preference all mixed in a lovely light read. VoIP ninja wants the next big thing in BMW engineering in a 3 series saloon. Op clearly wants a car that can offer amazing on road performance without sacrificing comfort, and the post clearly exemplifies this. None of the back history of why the new f30 is garbage.
That being said, I do appreciate the last paragraph, but beg to differ. I think if we look at any review we have to consider one thing, what the individual drivers/reviewers preferences are. If you personally think that the f30 is awesome for your needs, then no amount of convincing and debating will probably change that since, your needs are different from those who are convincing otherwise.
For me I think I believe the comment the f30 has gone soft, but that's personally great for me and BMW. I love the handling and road feel communicated on the prior e generation cars. They would always seem ready for anything. However myself and possibly a ton of others hated driving e series cars when you were tired or didn't want to lug around the weighted feeling of the road. That's where Audi and MERC came and offered their take on what a luxury car should feel like, MERC w floaty yet supremely comfortable and Audi with middle ground between mb and BMW. BMW couldn't hold a candle to these two since they were strictly road feel oriented. This generation capitalizes heavily on tuning the car to the individual driver. You have different drive modes, with varying suspension feel, steering feel, engine response and so on. The only thing is you have to pay 2 play which benefits BMW and brings every type of driver to give BMW a chance. This intern helps us by customizing the way we want a car to feel at any given time. However the soft comment comes with the pay 2 play idea. Back when the e90 was sold, you could purchase any model base or high end and expect a classic BMW feel to the car. Road noise was absent, drive 100mph and you felt you were doing 50 since it was built like a tank, and road feel was always there. Try that with a base f30 and you would probably think you were driving a MERC or an Audi, the classic BMW response is missing. However if you check the right boxes and add couple to the msrp that classic BMW is back. That's why I believe the f30 is softer Than the e90.
Finally in regards to comparing the previous generation over the current over transmission, road noise, and other gripes I think it's somewhat unnecessary since, if the next generation doesn't vastly improve over the previous, what's the point of paying for a new vehicle?.... Plus the i4 has To be quieted since they tend to be vastly noiser than 6s (squeal vs rumble)
October 9, 2012, 3:36 pm
Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.
.
Its architecture allows nearly the entire engine to be behind the axle center line. Any inline 6 would have been less than ideal compared to how this is situated.
I also do a lot of my own work. My S52 can be a nightmare. Meanwhile there is a lot of room with the N20, I can basically reach in and place both hands on the turbo.
To me the only thing the N20 lacks is noise. It will never sound like a 6, but it can still sound GOOD. My car is being used as we speak(dyno'ing today) for what should be a great sounding exhaust option.
October 9, 2012, 4:04 pm
NoI4plz, very well said. It all depends on the target consumer. For example, I was looking for a well rounded mid size car. The last gen 5 series was not comfortable enough for me, but it was much sportier than the F10, too bad that was not what I was looking for. The same can be said with the F30, its a well rounded car, but the non sport line versions does not feel as sporty as the the base E90. That doesnt make it a bad car if the buyer is looking for a comfortable car with a some sportiness to it. The sport line does offer better sporty feel, but now we are taking about a car in the high $40K and up.
October 9, 2012, 4:10 pm
I just completed a 1,100 mile trip on the interstate from Chicago to Fort Worth. I had zero suspension issues.
I could not change the quality of the roads but was (easily and relatively inexpensively) able to change the suspension and was able to solve the problem with absolutely no downside. Cars should be designed to work well in real world conditions that will be encountered by a significant number of drivers. I was not exactly driving on unpaved logging roads. I was driving the car on public roads in heavily populated areas where BMW sells a very large number of cars, and in some cases in not so heavily populated areas where BMWs are not as common.
I did not have an issue with the suspension in South Florida but since the car is no longer in South Florida that is somewhat of a moot point. I also did not have an issue with the heater (and don't in the Northeast either but if I did the fact that it was OK in Florida would be of little consolation if it could not keep up with Northeast winter temperaures). I purchased the car in Palm Beach but did not purchase the "Florida Only" model. I don't think expecting to drive the car in the Northeast without breaking it (8 tires and 5 rims had to be replaced) is unreasonable,
CA
October 9, 2012, 4:11 pm
Adjusted for inflation the price of the F30 is similar to the E90 until you get into some of the more esoteric options that weren't even available on the E90 such as adaptive suspension and safety features like overhead parking cameras, advanced cruise control with radar, blind spot detection, etc.
Don't get me wrong, the F30 is a VERY pricy car for what it is.. but that's comparing it to other cars in the segment, not other BMWs (new or old). Back when I test drove the F10 I wanted the F10 feature set but I felt that the F10 drove like a boat. I wanted something just a touch more comfortable/roomy than my B7 A4 but still able to attack corners when called upon and enough get up and go to keep me happy. F30 delivers but yes you have to tick the right boxes.
Honestly, I think for most 3 series buyers, they will probably be delighted with what they get in a base level F30 now that they've added power seats with memory, split rear seat fold-down, etc. If I remember correctly, John said that most of the F30s being sold at their dealership were "strippers". BMW knows their customers well.
I had extensive experience with a base 2012 F30 in CA and I would still say that it would eat the E90 in 90% of situations and spit the seeds out.
October 9, 2012, 5:16 pm
Thank god, or BMW would have a debacle similar to the new Honda civic in their portfolio.
The idea isn't to compare old 3 design features vs new 3's design feature since each group will say their better, rather compare with minimal bias, does the new improve on the central vehicle features that you the driver hold most important. If it does, than yes your absolutely satisfied and you should have a cheeky smile.if not then its time Rethink your next purchase, and try to find a vehicle that brings a cheeky smile every time you drive it.
October 9, 2012, 5:22 pm
Same experience. I had my F30 in for service and they gave me a 2011 E90 loaner. About the only things I enjoyed about it was the engine note (classic BMW) and MAYBE a more connected steering wheel. Otherwise the inside is just awful compared to the F30, the engine is anemic when paired with the old 6 speed auto, and it just felt dark and uninviting to be in.
I also found the steering to be trying to hard on the stiffness. I never thought that stiffness = connectivity. I feel that the sport mode on the F30 is a pretty good middle ground between lexus light, and E90 insane steering heft. Strangely enough my buddies 2007 335i does not have the insane stiffness in the steering, is this something new to the late mode E90s?
October 9, 2012, 5:28 pm
I also found the steering to be trying to hard on the stiffness. I never thought that stiffness = connectivity. I feel that the sport mode on the F30 is a pretty good middle ground between lexus light, and E90 insane steering heft. Strangely enough my buddies 2007 335i does not have the insane stiffness in the steering, is this something new to the late mode E90s?
October 9, 2012, 5:32 pm
The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.
Of course I hated the stock sport suspension on my E9x and others have no issue with it at all so who's to say?
CA
October 9, 2012, 6:14 pm
Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
Maybe I'm getting older, but I'm happy.
October 9, 2012, 6:25 pm
Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.
The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.
The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.
The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.
The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.
All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
PS: my 2011 335is did not have any squeaks or anything else wrong with it when I picked it up at the dealer. It still has not!
October 9, 2012, 6:28 pm
PS: my 2011 335is did not have any squeaks or anything else wrong with it when I picked it up at the dealer. It still has not!
My commute is 75-86 miles round trip depending on which route I take. It's better than your average 15 minute "test drive".
October 9, 2012, 6:31 pm
My, how times have changed....
October 9, 2012, 6:33 pm
My, home times have changed....
I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.
As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
October 9, 2012, 6:36 pm
As an aside, dealer called me, they'll want to keep my F30 for one more day as they just finished tinting it and are still going to detail it. They said that my squeak is in fact in the cupholder itself, and they suspect there might be a bad batch of them, as there is a national backorder on that part. They told me they hope to get one from Germany in 2-3 weeks, I will have to live with it in the meantime.
October 9, 2012, 6:47 pm
October 9, 2012, 6:51 pm
I had a week with a 2011 E90 x-drive recently, my observations were very similar to OP's, and I am comparing the E90 to my baseline F30.
I wonder if all us F30 owners will eventually become like the E90 owners on this board, watching the forums for the new model like hawks ready to go nuts if someone criticizes 'our' 3-series...
October 9, 2012, 6:55 pm
OP, I am glad you enjoy your car and there is no need to justify your purchase as long as you are happy with it. I am sorry you got "stuck" with a E90, but at the end of the day you got a free loaner. The F30 is a great all around car and an improvement over the E90 making it easier to appeal to a broader customer base. Personally I think it lost a lot of what made BMW great and I also feel the same about the F10 5 series. The F30 is more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan.
October 9, 2012, 7:06 pm
Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?
Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
October 9, 2012, 7:07 pm
I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.
As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
I have no opinion on the F30 steering since I have never driven one. I do maintain that the steering on the E90 never felt heavy to me and during the time I have had the 335i I have regularly driven a wide range of cars ranging from our 750i, a 650i, Shelbys, Ms. Audio's Jaguar XKR, Vipers, Audis, Mercedes, Porsches, Ferraris, Honda Accords and the occaisional rental Camry.
It has been some time since I drove a car with no power steering (and I have never driven a car with a broken power steering pump) but I don't remember them feeling like my 335i.
I doubt that I will keep the E93 another 7 years and when I do replace it if I want another 3 Series (which is unlikely but I have not ruled that out) it will be an F32 or F33 which is for all practical purposes a coupe or convertible F30.
CA
October 9, 2012, 7:07 pm
I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.
As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
I'm pretty sure this happens every time the 3 series gets a new generation!
Look you have a great car! Done enjoy!
Optional read:
The f30 is thoroughly adjustable something e90 owners could only dream of (unless you went with coilovers or something similar). Everyone agrees. However when you mention that your, next generation model (that was designed to last till 2019) is doing amazing compared to a model designed to last till 2011 its a duh moment. (next generation models, are suppose to improve on its predecessor). That being said, you do come to that, as evidenced in your op.
However there are couple of things you have to keep in mind for a future review:
1) claiming a stripper, demo 2011 with 6k miles represents the pinnacle of e90 tech...INCORRECT
2) Comparing that particular e90 to your decked out f30....incorrect
Finally to all those wanting to bash the OP, I think we have to realize that he's not trying to discredit the e90, rather talking about the improvements he has noticed compared to the previous generation 3 series.
October 9, 2012, 7:09 pm
So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.
Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
October 9, 2012, 7:11 pm
Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
October 9, 2012, 7:12 pm
Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
October 9, 2012, 7:14 pm
Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
October 9, 2012, 7:16 pm
Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?
Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
October 9, 2012, 7:18 pm
Some people are getting upset in this thread lmao. relax, enjoy your e90's.
October 9, 2012, 7:23 pm
Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?
Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
October 9, 2012, 7:24 pm
October 9, 2012, 7:28 pm
Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
October 9, 2012, 8:16 pm
It would be disingenuous of me to take shots at the E9X having owned two of them and being very happy for the better part of 6 years. While I think the F30 is a quantum leap ahead in terms of design, ride, and technology, the E9X was a great car. I had a lot of fun, I got a lot of looks, and it kept my family safe.
Godspeed, E9X.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 8:34 pm
OP - So let me get this straight.
You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?
Got it.
October 9, 2012, 8:38 pm
You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?
Got it.
October 9, 2012, 8:39 pm
You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?
Got it.
The F30 is a more refined car. It happens. BMW improves. Some go along for the ride.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 8:43 pm
My e92 M3 has got nothing on your F30 335i. The F30 is Gods gift to man.
October 9, 2012, 9:12 pm
Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?
BJ
October 9, 2012, 9:20 pm
I have yet to test drive an F30. The front snount seems over large to me, but from what I gather that is due more to EU pedestrian impact standards than styling. Otherwise I'm sure it's a nice car. Not quite sure I can get to a turbo 4 banger, at least in the first year of production in the states. We will see how they last over time and whether or not there is a lurking HPFP issue awaiting buyers.
For sure BMW is listening to their target market. If the buyers in focus groups and follow up surveys are looking for more gizmos, features and sheer HP (not to mention size, and let's face it, comfort) than the competition, you can hardly blame them for keeping up. It's all about the almighty dollar/Euro/yen these days anyways...
Fortunately, for knuckle-dragging mouth breathers like me, the heart of BMW still beats on in the form of the S65B40 4.0L, 90 degree V8 that revs to 8,000+ RPM equipped with a six speed, manual-freaking-transmission that God und Baron von Falkenhausen intended.
Carry on.
October 9, 2012, 9:29 pm
I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.
As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.
I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.
A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.
October 9, 2012, 9:35 pm
Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?
BJ
October 9, 2012, 9:38 pm
Great car, enjoy.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 9:47 pm
October 9, 2012, 10:17 pm
Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.
I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.
A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.
I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track. R&T gave the victory to the 328 while stating that the ATS outperformed it on the skidpad and slalom. (I will interject here and say that I think that it is rather remarkable how close Cadillac has come in its first attempt against a car that has been being developed for close to 50 years.)
I think what R&D says about the 3 Series sums up the way I feel about cars, or in particular road cars. At the limits the Cadillac outperformed the BMW. But how often do we drive at the limits? I am sure there are some reading this who will say they drive at the limits (and perhaps a few have, but for the vast majority making that claim a few laps around a track as a passenger with a professional race driver at the wheel will knock that notion out of their heads pretty quickly).
I do not purchase cars to "Race Soccer Moms in School Zones" or to drive like a maniac on twisty roads (sorry BJ
You do not have to be at the limits to appreciate a well balanced good handling car. Most modern cars (yes even the Accords and Camrys we are so fond of dumping on here) are very capable of being driven well above the speed limit.
So most of the time we are either driving at the speed limit or a bit above it. What separates the good from the bad in that scenario is the way the car feels while we are doing that. A 328i with standard suspension does not feel the same as a 335i with sport suspension even when they are both being driven at conservative speeds. Both good cars, each with its own advantages but they feel different. A more extreme example would be a Camry, which while perfectly capable of safely cruising at a steady 75 miles per hour on an interstate, does not feel the same as a BMW 750. Both will safely get you where you are going in comfort but the experience is not the same.
My 335i, in its stock form was supposedly a luxury sport coupe (or convertible in my case). As it turned out without some work it left something to be desired in both categories. It was way to harsh to qualify as a luxury car and too skittish over bumps to be a particularly good sports car. If the F30 gave up a bit of the "engaging" feel of the E9x to eliminate the harshness, then I think that a lot of people would be happy with that.
I personally want the best of both worlds, and I know from experience that I can have it. BMW did not give it to me on the E93 and if they cannot give it to me on the F30 I will be looking elsewhere. I was able to get the 335i where I wanted it, but frankly I want the car that replaces it to be the way I want it the day I take it home, not after two years of torture, research and experimenation.
To be continued after I test drive an F30 . . . . . and before I decide to purchase one it is going to be an EXTENSIVE test drive like the one I had with the 750 not like the 15 minute test drive I had in a 335i.
CA
October 9, 2012, 10:48 pm
I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track...
CA
The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.
It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 10:59 pm
The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.
It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.
BJ
The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.
CA
October 9, 2012, 11:03 pm
I've quite an opposite experience regarding F30. While my E90 was in the shop for SRC mixer recall & software reset, my dealer provided F30 328i loaner for 9 days. Firstly, I've to say BMW really does an excellent job on F30's suspension especially when driving on city streets & cruising around town. In fact, that's my favorite memory of F30. However, I still prefer E90's suspension when cruising on interstate highways. E90 provides firmer ride & more feedback.
Now, my least favorite feature of F30 is its steering. Again, I'm not here to re-start the flame. I am simply saying that steering can be "light" & "heavy", the most important job of steering unit (in my opinion) is to provide additional feedback. There is no dispute, F30's EPS unit is on the lighter side whereas E90's HPS has a heavy feel to it. My problem with F30's EPS is not really about the "lightness" , rather it is about the numbness. The best I can describe this sensation is like letting a blind man driving an E90 and he will be able to tell which side of the wheel is running over the uneven surface or potholes. On the other hand, it will make it much difficult for him to differentiate such sensation while driving F30.
Before F30 fanboys start chastising me, please comprehend I have nothing against heavy or light steering. I do have problem with numb steering especially that's the reason I order a BMW and not Lexus. If BMW is going down the road to make EPS unit default on most vehicles, please make an effort to improve liveliness. Due to the nature of EPS design versus HPS, it is very difficult to duplicate "hydrualic damping" effect. It is not entirely impossible because I recently test drove 2013 Boxster & Porsche nails it right. That's some well-designed EPS unit. Although it feels lighter than E90's HPS, it is lively and no numbness. I dream of such an unit in upcoming M3.
The saving in fuel consumption isn't much in reality when HPS is replaced by EPS. BMW is smart to not muddy the waters when they introduce F10 M5 + F12/13 M6. They went back to HPS unit for M cars even thought EPS are readily available.
Just my 2 cents.
October 9, 2012, 11:07 pm
The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.
CA
1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.
2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 11:11 pm
1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.
2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.
BJ
2. I seriously doubt that I would hate it as it is from all indications a very good car. I never drove an E36 or an E46 and while they were being produced had no interest in owning a BMW.
October 9, 2012, 11:50 pm
Great car, enjoy.
BJ
October 9, 2012, 11:53 pm
BJ, change those wheels. They're an eye sore.
October 10, 2012, 12:09 am
October 10, 2012, 12:23 am
I love 'em.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 1:14 am
October 10, 2012, 1:22 am
October 10, 2012, 1:26 am
October 10, 2012, 1:30 am
I love 'em.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 1:32 am
October 10, 2012, 1:43 am
1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.
October 10, 2012, 1:47 am
October 10, 2012, 1:48 am
BJ
October 10, 2012, 8:58 am
October 10, 2012, 9:00 am
October 10, 2012, 9:02 am
October 10, 2012, 9:32 am
Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
Find steering not overly firm....? You're right - wouldn't want less effort.
And remember:Then again I run Yellows. But, hey, grips good. Awaiting M4.
October 10, 2012, 9:47 am
October 10, 2012, 9:52 am
October 10, 2012, 10:06 am
2. I test drove everything in the segment at least twice before deciding on the F30 as a replacement for my aging B7, which by the way, was considered the last A4 with "good handling and firm steering".
3. I test drove on the most challenging kinds of roads that I will typically ever drive on which consists of lots of switchbacks on public roads... roads where I might be inclined to bend the rules a bit, but still won't push the car anywhere near the limits, not only for my own safety but for that of others.
As to driving the E90 with a pinky... well, good luck with that.
October 10, 2012, 10:07 am
I'm on my 2nd day with the E90, time for a 2nd 75 mile round trip drive to Westminster on a combination of suburban streets and highway. Wish me luck. My F30 should be detailed and ready for pick-up later this morning or early this afternoon... it sucks that the cupholder is on national backorder.
October 10, 2012, 10:13 am
Thank you.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 10:15 am
I just can't believe that BMW would put you through this humiliation.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 10:17 am
I just can't believe that BMW would put you through this humiliation.
BJ
Hopefully once the new one shows up they will have me in and out of there pronto.
October 10, 2012, 10:22 am
Comments in another thread reminded me of something else in this comparison.
The E90 stereo system (at least the base one) is simply terrible compared to the one in the F30. Now I know that most E90 fans could care less about how the stereo sounds since they have it turned off to listen to the music that the wonderful I6 engine makes, but for those of us who do long boring drives the sound system quality is of paramount importance.
October 10, 2012, 10:24 am
2. I test drove everything in the segment at least twice before deciding on the F30 as a replacement for my aging B7, which by the way, was considered the last A4 with "good handling and firm steering".
3. I test drove on the most challenging kinds of roads that I will typically ever drive on which consists of lots of switchbacks on public roads... roads where I might be inclined to bend the rules a bit, but still won't push the car anywhere near the limits, not only for my own safety but for that of others.
As to driving the E90 with a pinky... well, good luck with that.
October 10, 2012, 10:26 am
Anyway, whenever I got a loaner, it always felt like a turd, even though they were both E90s! It was like they were totally separate cars. The loaner had crappy non-sport seats, no seat heaters, ugly color interior, boring slush box, etc. It always felt like a huge downgrade, even though it was technically the same model.
Sure, some of the improvement you're noticing is the jump from E90 to F30. But a lot of the improvements might have to do with the fact your car has nice options, compared to the stripped-down loaner.
October 10, 2012, 10:26 am
I created this thread as, by reading the E90 forum, one would believe that the launch of the F30 signals the apocalypse for "true BMW boy racer diehards"!
October 10, 2012, 10:48 am
You E90 folks remind me of all the Porsche 911 people that went ballistic with the same issue. And I bet 95% of those people didn't drive a car with this steering setup. Just repeated what other said. My opinion is BMW did a great job with the F30 steering. In Eco and Comfort, yes its very very light, I don't like it. In sport and sport + however its just about perfect for me.
October 10, 2012, 10:54 am
Thank you.
BJ
Thank you.
October 10, 2012, 10:57 am
All the e90 owners are that are bitching now will be F30 owners in 2-3 years when their current leases run out
October 10, 2012, 11:00 am
The E90 stereo system (at least the base one) is simply terrible compared to the one in the F30. Now I know that most E90 fans could care less about how the stereo sounds since they have it turned off to listen to the music that the wonderful I6 engine makes, but for those of us who do long boring drives the sound system quality is of paramount importance.
October 10, 2012, 11:01 am
You E90 folks remind me of all the Porsche 911 people that went ballistic with the same issue. And I bet 95% of those people didn't drive a car with this steering setup. Just repeated what other said. My opinion is BMW did a great job with the F30 steering. In Eco and Comfort, yes its very very light, I don't like it. In sport and sport + however its just about perfect for me.
The steering in the F30 is, in fact, mechanical. It has electric power assist, but the steering rack has a direct mechanical operation.
October 10, 2012, 12:08 pm
Thank you.
Please, think of the children.
If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:
1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.
2. All legends die, especially aged automotive status-symbols.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 12:38 pm
October 10, 2012, 12:45 pm
The steering in the F30 is, in fact, mechanical. It has electric power assist, but the steering rack has a direct mechanical operation.
Again, I'm not here to knock off F30 or anyone. I prefers both light (such as 2013 Boxster) & heavy (E90) steering unit as long as it isn't numb and provide feedback. Although I prefer E90 on interstates, I can still live with F30's suspension. BMW has done an excellent job on F30's suspension. I really dig the suspension. It'll be a dream to have E90's HPS + F30's suspension combo. Just another 2 cents.
October 10, 2012, 12:58 pm
When my dealer has 3s in stock, do you know what configuration they are? Mostly stripper no lines. Why? The majority of their customers want the $399 base lease. Only the badge matters to them.
Everyone on here arguing about M Adaptive and tech packages are outliers.
October 10, 2012, 1:40 pm
Again, I'm not here to knock off F30 or anyone. I prefers both light (such as 2013 Boxster) & heavy (E90) steering unit as long as it isn't numb and provide feedback. Although I prefer E90 on interstates, I can still live with F30's suspension. BMW has done an excellent job on F30's suspension. I really dig the suspension. It'll be a dream to have E90's HPS + F30's suspension combo. Just another 2 cents.
btw - ZF supplies Porsche's EPS, too. They gave the job to ZF because their system is "so good". ZF also supplies the same EPS system to Ford. It is in use in their Super Duty trucks. I spoke to a ZF rep at the NAIAS in Detroit in January. He said the feel is entirely up to the programming the auto manufacturer chooses. Maybe down the road BMW or a third party will offer alternate programming to modify the steering dynamics.
October 10, 2012, 2:05 pm
Please, think of the children.
Lexus? You're kidding, right?
If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:
1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.
2. All legends die, especially aged automotive status-symbols.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 2:18 pm
October 10, 2012, 2:21 pm
October 10, 2012, 2:26 pm
BMW isn't going to change anything mechanical. Cosmetic facelift, of course. Everything else, status quo.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 2:33 pm
October 10, 2012, 2:35 pm
deleted
October 10, 2012, 2:36 pm
October 10, 2012, 3:00 pm
October 10, 2012, 4:27 pm
Okay!
So, I got a second day with the E90 under my belt before turning it in and picking up my F30. Here are my observations.
The heavier steering starts to grow on you and is actually fairly similar to the steering in my B7 Audi.
However, the steering is unnecessarily heavy-handed at lower speeds (not just parking lot maneuvers but even just making rapid turns at 20-30 mph on side streets in the burbs).
I took the same tight sweeping left-hander today that is on my alternate return route from my work. I have taken this road many times with the F30. What I would say is that road feel (there is some bumpy pavement, etc) at 80-90 mph on this nice sweeper is VERY similar between the two cars.... WHEN the F30 is in sport mode. Certainly the stock E90 suspension and steering are much firmer than they are on a stock suspension F30.
I did not feel that the E90 provided enough additional feedback that it would warrant a claim that it is BETTER than the F30, only that it is different, and certainly might appeal to different drivers.
I filled up the E90 and observed that I had put about 180 miles on its clocks in the time I had it and had burned 8.5 gallons of fuel. Not very good milage. Doing the EXACT same type of driving, filling up my F30 I would get about 30-32 mpg and that's with a car with fewer miles. I don't know that too many people would choose one sports sedan over another solely based on mileage but it is a fact worth considering.
Also, to the comments that my loaner E90 was "stripped"... it was not. It had a moonroof, heated leather power seats, climate control, etc. Obviously it seriously suffered in the tech department as it had no i-drive, no navigation, etc. I would say that I prefer the cockpit layout and layout/accessibility of controls GREATLY on the F30 over the E90.
I picked up my F30 and they had done a great job with the detailing and window tint. They buffed off whatever cosmoline/residue was on the driver's side tail light and the car looks showroom ready again.
First stop with the new car was picking up some lunch. I chose.... shawarma (because you know, all of us who prefer F30s are middle eastern leaning terrorist-wannabes). Driving over to the lair of middle eastern food preparers I immediately noticed how CRAZY LIGHT my F30 steering was. No really, it was palpable coming from the E90. Now... here's the interesting part... I had just as readily noticed that with the E90 the steering when I started driving it felt like it was way too heavy, especially at lower speeds... but, I got used to it.
So, maybe instead of this being a right vs. wrong issue, maybe it's a preference issue, and maybe (just maybe) if someone who is antagonistic towards either setup actually drove it for a couple hundred miles they might adjust to it and, in some cases might find that the system they initially detested was GOOD, or at minimum livable.
Just a thought.
P.S. I still greatly prefer my F30 to the E90.
F30 with tinted windows at the shawarma hut;
And at the casa while I run in, gobble down that middle eastern fare and prepare to race back to the office...
October 10, 2012, 4:34 pm
Black is definitely beautiful when it's freshly detailed like that. The stock wheels are pretty darn nice.
October 10, 2012, 4:37 pm
October 10, 2012, 4:46 pm
What tint percentage?
On a side note, I would love them to add more finite controls over the driving profiles on the f30. Yes i know most people prefer just clicking a profile and be done, but adding some more finite profile options, like the percentage of assist from the eps, or dialing in exact amount of suspension travel, exhaust note or throttle percentages. I'm pretty sure there standard on the m3-4 but something similar as an option would be a plus. And all those seeking further tailoring of the cars driving dynamics would be satisfiying at least to me and others.
October 10, 2012, 4:50 pm
On a side note, I would love them to add more finite controls over the driving profiles on the f30. Yes i know most people prefer just clicking a profile and be done, but adding some more finite profile options, like the percentage of assist from the eps, or dialing in exact amount of suspension travel, exhaust note or throttle percentages. I'm pretty sure there standard on the m3-4 but something similar as an option would be a plus. And all those seeking further tailoring of the cars driving dynamics would be satisfiying at least to me and others.
I actually agree with you. I would like the ability to customize the drive settings even more than is currently possible. I would like comfort mode to make the throttle slightly less responsive (better fuel economy) and the suspension more oriented towards soaking up the bumps, but keep the steering in the sport setting mode.
I would expect that a lot of these niggles will be addressed over the next 2-3 model year cycles. There's a reason I leased.... I don't want to be driving the 1st iteration of a new model for 7-9 years.
October 10, 2012, 5:01 pm
Complelty agree, I think the earliest we can see this happen is either LCI, or next f- series of the 3 series
October 10, 2012, 5:16 pm
So, maybe instead of this being a right vs. wrong issue, maybe it's a preference issue, and maybe (just maybe) if someone who is antagonistic towards either setup actually drove it for a couple hundred miles they might adjust to it and, in some cases might find that the system they initially detested was GOOD, or at minimum livable.
...
Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
October 10, 2012, 5:21 pm
Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
October 10, 2012, 5:23 pm
The F30 is different than the E90, but not in a bad way. I had E90 328 and 335 and after putting 7000 miles on the F30, i prefer the steering more. When i need it to be stiff i can go to sport mode, when i want a nice relaxing drive i go to eco pro. What's funny is the E90 owners coming in the F30 forum and having to voicing their displeasure with the car(most of these posters havent even driven the car yet lol).
Those that can't live with the new steering, let us all know when you get your audi, mercedes or cadillac, and how it is. Most of you guys will be driving an F30 soon anyways tho lol.
October 10, 2012, 5:38 pm
So, I got a second day with the E90 under my belt before turning it in and picking up my F30. Here are my observations.
When I went from my E90 328i and drove the F30 328i for the first time I was blown away by how quick the car was, how light it felt, and how much easier it was to steer. I'm assuming that the difference in quickness and lightness is more apparent to 328i owners because of the weight difference and the power boost, perhaps 335i owners won't feel the same joy.
The authentic 3 Series "feel" is still there; you just need to pay more for it, get the right suspension, get one of the Sport lines, done.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 5:59 pm
I wish BMW would re-rate this engine as the typical buyer will have no clue about whp/vs manufacturers claims.
October 10, 2012, 5:59 pm
The authentic 3 Series "feel" is still there; you just need to pay more for it, get the right suspension, get one of the Sport lines, done.
BJ
I think you might be onto something. I'm holding out on M3 to see if BMW will keep HPS in it much like F10 M5.
October 10, 2012, 6:04 pm
I wish BMW would re-rate this engine as the typical buyer will have no clue about whp/vs manufacturers claims.
October 10, 2012, 6:09 pm
Lexus ES is cheaper because it's pretty much a toyota with different sheet metal and some soft leather seats.
October 10, 2012, 6:22 pm
I think you might be onto something. I'm holding out on M3 to see if BMW will keep HPS in it much like F10 M5.
So the E90 folks, like the E46 people before them, find the one or two controversial areas and pick at them like a bloody scab. Meanwhile, two things will certainly happen:
1. They'll take a test drive with the appropriate suspension.
2. They'll lease on on the spot.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 7:01 pm
Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
October 10, 2012, 7:19 pm
This thread is hysterical. And, I say that not as a shot at the OP but as a shot at chatboard behavior. Every few months I see a thread pop up on the E90 board which essentially states "I own an E90, and I got a loaner that was configured in different way than my car, and my car is a lot better! I can't wait to get it back!" I've done it myself.
The reality is that somebody who spent $40,000+ on a car is not going to get an earlier model as a loaner and then declare the loaner to be the better vehicle. Nobody human could be that objective.
Also, we all tend to like what we are used to. I see lots of threads criticizing the seats in various loaner cars and I'm certain that is about a driver having to get used to seats different than the ones he drives every day.
All that said, I am an E90 owner who will NOT be upgrading to an F30. I had an F30 for a week as a loaner, and I thought it was a major upgrade in some ways and a major downgrade in others. I loved the power and responsiveness of the turbo engine, the overall behavior of the transmission, and I thought the suspension (even in the non-sporting modes) offered a far better ride/handling tradeoff than anything in the E90 line. I also thought the seats were wildly comfortable.
On the downsides, I find the F30 steering to be numb and it feels light and overly boosted to me. I can't begin to agree with those of you who see it as superior (or even close to being the equal of) the E90.
Also on a less positive note, there was a very significant decrement in the quality of SOME materials in the interior (IMO). The center console area, in particular, felt low rent to me.
The F30 is definitely a significant increment on many levels, but there are some real misses there as well.
October 10, 2012, 7:25 pm
The reality is that somebody who spent $40,000+ on a car is not going to get an earlier model as a loaner and then declare the loaner to be the better vehicle. Nobody human could be that objective.
There were things I preferred about my E92 loaner over my F30. My loaner had a higher MSRP too.
October 10, 2012, 7:26 pm
I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.
I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.
I thought that the car would retain it's bone-shattering too-tight suspension. Dead wrong.
I thought the Luxury/Sport/Modern lines would be distasteful. Dead wrong.
I thought the styling would be questionable. Dead wrong.
I thought the technology would still be shady BMW-style. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would cost me more than my prior one. Dead wrong.
The F30 exceeded every expectation I had. Truth be told, like many of us, I was going turn my E90 lease into an F30 lease unless they had screwed it up so badly that I was driven away. I'm loyal that way, comfortable with BMW. Not only didn't they screw it up, they made it much much better from a non-enthusiasts perspective. Couldn't be happier.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 7:37 pm
Well, I do consider myself an enthusiast of sorts. I've driven tons of cars and I still think that the F30 retains an element of sportiness (at least in the configuration I optioned) that feeds my darker side (you know... the "cut loose when no one is around in the dead of night" side). When it comes to real "serious" performance... cars are kind of boring after riding 350 lb 180 horsepower super bikes.
Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.
Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
October 10, 2012, 7:54 pm
Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.
Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
The only aspect of the F30 that is less sporty than the E90 is the steering, and that is not really a BMW issue. The entire industry is moving toward EPS.
October 10, 2012, 8:06 pm
I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.
I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.
I thought that the car would retain it's bone-shattering too-tight suspension. Dead wrong.
I thought the Luxury/Sport/Modern lines would be distasteful. Dead wrong.
I thought the styling would be questionable. Dead wrong.
I thought the technology would still be shady BMW-style. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would cost me more than my prior one. Dead wrong.
The F30 exceeded every expectation I had. Truth be told, like many of us, I was going turn my E90 lease into an F30 lease unless they had screwed it up so badly that I was driven away. I'm loyal that way, comfortable with BMW. Not only didn't they screw it up, they made it much much better from a non-enthusiasts perspective. Couldn't be happier.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 8:11 pm
Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.
Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
October 10, 2012, 8:13 pm
October 10, 2012, 8:32 pm
I purchased my third 3 Series in 6 years and was worried that they might have ruined it. Thankfully, I was wrong.
Just like you.
I'm assuming you drive an E90 Sport. I owned both an E90 M-Sport and an F30. I think I'm quite qualified to comment on the attributes of both cars. Keep reading your magazines, I'm sure they teach you a lot.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 8:52 pm
October 10, 2012, 8:56 pm
Nothing fulfills the thrill of riding a bike.
October 10, 2012, 8:58 pm
I purchased my third 3 Series in 6 years and was worried that they might have ruined it. Thankfully, I was wrong.
Just like you.
I'm assuming you drive an E90 Sport. I owned both an E90 M-Sport and an F30. I think I'm quite qualified to comment on the attributes of both cars. Keep reading your magazines, I'm sure they teach you a lot.
BJ
October 10, 2012, 9:53 pm
The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.
The previous generation IS-F had a ride that was very harsh. Much harsher than an E9x with sport suspension.
CA
October 10, 2012, 10:06 pm
Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.
Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
October 10, 2012, 10:14 pm
The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.
The previous generation IS-F had a ride that was very harsh. Much harsher than an E9x with sport suspension.
CA
October 10, 2012, 10:28 pm
It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.
CA
October 10, 2012, 11:07 pm
October 10, 2012, 11:18 pm
Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
The difficult thing for people who like some weight to the steering is that there's just nowhere else to go. Drove the A4, C250, Acura ILX, they are all even lighter and more devoid of feel. BMW was the last holdout. For me I prefer a little weight, but it's also important that effort builds with cornering load, so that the steering helps you sense how hard the front tires are working, and goes light when they lose grip. I call it like I see it. My S2000 is IMHO completely let down in its mission of being a pure driving machine by it's lack of steering feel. OTOH my 2009 Honda Fit has way better steering than any $16k ****box has any right to have. In fact, I can't find a single characteristic of our new VSS equipped F30 steering-even in sport mode- that is better, at 3x the price.
I do respect that others feel differently and that time marches on. Personally I agree that the engine/transmission of the F30 328i is a masterpiece, the ride/handling balance is better, and the interior is nicer. The only things I miss from the E90 are the steering and the comparative lack of complexity.
My, how times have changed....
October 10, 2012, 11:46 pm
October 10, 2012, 11:48 pm
If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:
1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.
October 10, 2012, 11:52 pm
And then I made a lot of money and that was the end of that.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 12:01 am
October 11, 2012, 12:06 am
The 2013 A4 also got an electric-motor assisted steering, and I am almost sure you can already change the assist level through VAG-COM.
October 11, 2012, 12:06 am
If Lexus made a car that I liked I would have no qualms about buying one and I don't care who called it a Rebadged Toyota.
CA
October 11, 2012, 12:07 am
I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.
I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.
I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.
My guess is because of the uninformed mindless brain-washing by the auto press.
October 11, 2012, 12:08 am
October 11, 2012, 12:11 am
The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.
October 11, 2012, 12:14 am
October 11, 2012, 12:17 am
October 11, 2012, 12:19 am
October 11, 2012, 12:26 am
October 11, 2012, 12:26 am
October 11, 2012, 12:27 am
1984 the first CD players started to hit the market. Really expensive stuff, very niche at the time. Stereo Review magazine's most respected writer, think his name was Ken Pohlmann, comes out with an article whose premise was that "because it's all digital, all CD players sound exactly the same so pick any one you want and don't worry about it", then went on to talk about the virtues of vinyl.
By 1985, Stereo Review magainze and it's most respected writer were doing CD player comparo after comparo about the Sony this and the JVC that and the Technics this and the Pioneer that, and the horsepower wars of 8x oversampling and the color of the laser and the refraction angle of the mirrors and all that other stuff and it went on and on for 20 years.
If the Car & Driver's and Motor Trend's of the world stick to their elitist 6 cylinder views there's a whole lot of enthusiasts and generalists that are going to stop buying their pulp. Technology is evolutionary; reporting on it is usually prefaced with a cold bucket of reality.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 12:30 am
October 11, 2012, 12:38 am
My guess is because of the uninformed mindless brain-washing by the auto press.
Read thread after thread about how the F30 was going to be too big, too wide, too soft, too plush, not to mention the blasphemy of the 4 cylinder engine. This car was going to be too disconnected from its heritage and too expensive for its powerplant. I was going to hate it, have to go look at Mercedes Benz.
Then I took an F30 test drive and I swear it took all of 30 seconds pulling out of the BMW driveway into 60 MPH traffic flow to realize that this was the lightest, tightest, most effortless engine/transmission combo I'd ever experienced. And that was before I appreciated how comfortable the ride was and how rocket-like Sport mode was. And then I stopped smiling just long enough to notice the interior design and the head-up display and the iDrive enhancements and that was that. Took all of 5 minutes.
I'm at the 8 week marker now, only have one issue with the car and it's only when I feel like driving like a maniac (very rarely) so I can let that go, get a thicker set of sway bars for my Luxury line someday.
My first impressions tend to be the best, they've helped me throughout my life and my career. The day I got the car I said this was the greatest 3 Series ever made and will shatter the sales records of those that came before it. I think I was right.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 1:19 am
October 11, 2012, 1:26 am
If Lexus made a car that I liked I would have no qualms about buying one and I don't care who called it a Rebadged Toyota.
CA
October 11, 2012, 1:30 am
Then I took an F30 test drive and I swear it took all of 30 seconds pulling out of the BMW driveway into 60 MPH traffic flow to realize that this was the lightest, tightest, most effortless engine/transmission combo I'd ever experienced.
October 11, 2012, 1:49 am
Audi has had a 265Hp version of the same engine for a while now in the TTS.
It also has a 2.5L five-banger than produces 360Hp/343lb-ft (a mini-monster).
So it is not like Audi cannot put a more potent version in the A4.
You also have to realize that BMW had been turbo charging aircraft engines 50+ years ago and that it has made many turbo engines for cars since the seventies. Someone here pointed out to me that BMW was not new at this game, and after doing just a little bit of research, I realized how right he was and how wrong my own assumptions were about this.
Finally, cost, marketing, and different choices for balancing reliability with performance influence what engine these companies end up using. Either one could easily make engines that far surpass the ones currently fielded in their cars.
October 11, 2012, 7:28 am
October 11, 2012, 7:46 am
You guys order Chinese food from the same restaurant last night?
BJ
October 11, 2012, 8:55 am
October 11, 2012, 9:08 am
Well, I joined the club with voip today. Dropped off my F30 for FEM replacement and I'm in a stripper E90 328i.
And when I say stripper, I mean stripper. No comfort access, no satrad, nothing. When I hit the gas to get on the interstate, I was shocked by the delay before it did anything.
Please, please, please let this repair take less than a week.
October 11, 2012, 9:12 am
It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.
CA
October 11, 2012, 9:17 am
BJ
October 11, 2012, 9:21 am
And when I say stripper, I mean stripper. No comfort access, no satrad, nothing. When I hit the gas to get on the interstate, I was shocked by the delay before it did anything.
Please, please, please let this repair take less than a week.
E90 people are used to being mistreated like this; it's an outrage what they put you and VoIP through. Hang in there. This nightmare will be over soon. Just don't let your neighbors see you in that out of style mess; they'll uninvite you to the Halloween block party, make your wife cry, not worth it.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 9:51 am
October 11, 2012, 9:59 am
October 11, 2012, 10:04 am
October 11, 2012, 10:25 am
Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
October 11, 2012, 10:38 am
October 11, 2012, 10:41 am
Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
October 11, 2012, 10:45 am
Audi choose to detune the 2.0T engine for better refinement. As someone have already mentioned, Audi have version of the 2.0T engine that is more powerful than the N20. I have driven both the Audi A4 and the F30, although the F30 is a tad bit quicker, the A4's powertrain is definitely more refined. To say the N20 is far better than the 2.0T is just not true, both engines have been on the Ward's 10 best engine list.
October 11, 2012, 10:51 am
Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
October 11, 2012, 10:52 am
October 11, 2012, 10:58 am
October 11, 2012, 11:08 am
Find out for yourself. Drive it.
No, it won't be and no it isn't. As good as Hyundais may have gotten in recent years they do not compete with BMW, or Audi or Mercedes.
October 11, 2012, 11:13 am
Here is a direct comparison:
Both cars have the same transmission. Despite the A4 being heavier and down in hp (well at least on paper) it posts nearly identical acceleration times while achieving nearly identical fuel economy. On the side note it was also a better performer in braking, steering and most importantly slalom speed while riding on a much older chassis. I don't see how the N20 is any better than the TSFI. The proof is in the pudding.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ison-tests.pdf
October 11, 2012, 11:16 am
October 11, 2012, 11:31 am
October 11, 2012, 12:05 pm
Both cars have the same transmission. Despite the A4 being heavier and down in hp (well at least on paper) it posts nearly identical acceleration times while achieving nearly identical fuel economy. On the side note it was also a better performer in braking, steering and most importantly slalom speed while riding on a much older chassis. I don't see how the N20 is any better than the TSFI. The proof is in the pudding.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ison-tests.pdf
October 11, 2012, 12:06 pm
It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.
CA
October 11, 2012, 12:17 pm
BJ
October 11, 2012, 12:23 pm
It's not really surprising seeing the N20 underrated. BMW has a track record for that.
October 11, 2012, 12:24 pm
October 11, 2012, 12:31 pm
Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
October 11, 2012, 12:31 pm
October 11, 2012, 12:34 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.
Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 12:39 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.
Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 12:51 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.
Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 1:10 pm
October 11, 2012, 2:53 pm
N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;
Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.
Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 2:56 pm
N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;
Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.
Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 3:00 pm
Here is a link to the A4 TFSI Dyno:
http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...sivl_long.html
212 HP 280 TRQ! Not sure if its Quattro or not, but if it is then that is even more impressive! I still don't see how anyone can claim that the N20 is superior to the A4.
October 11, 2012, 3:00 pm
N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;
Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.
Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
October 11, 2012, 3:05 pm
October 11, 2012, 3:11 pm
http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...sivl_long.html
212 HP 280 TRQ! Not sure if its Quattro or not, but if it is then that is even more impressive! I still don't see how anyone can claim that the N20 is superior to the A4.
Bull ****. Apr tunes audi's i dont trust their numbers at all. I found a bunch of dynos of the 2,0t
Here is the 2.0t
I even found an APR dyno,
stock numbers on dyno are 200/225
N20>A4
Good effort but try harder.
October 11, 2012, 3:16 pm
They are telling me my car is done and it only took a recoding and I can pick it up today. Frankly, I'm skeptical, but this is preferable to being in this loaner for a week. Some observations after driving the car to work:
1. I can't believe how much I miss comfort access. My wife's SUV is older and requires a key, and I find that less obnoxious than having to shove a fob into the dash for some reason.
2. The actual driving experience isn't too bad save for 2 things: hitting the gas and feeling like nothing happens for 2 seconds and how rough it handles bad road surfaces. Ugh.
3. There is a simple grace to the spartan, basic interior. However, I hate the cupholders and the window controls angled away from the driver.
4. The interior feels like a VW bug compared to the bigger F30.
Also, if the car is recoded, will I have to redo all of my electronic settings? Presets? Music Hard Drive?
October 11, 2012, 3:19 pm
1. I can't believe how much I miss comfort access. My wife's SUV is older and requires a key, and I find that less obnoxious than having to shove a fob into the dash for some reason.
2. The actual driving experience isn't too bad save for 2 things: hitting the gas and feeling like nothing happens for 2 seconds and how rough it handles bad road surfaces. Ugh.
3. There is a simple grace to the spartan, basic interior. However, I hate the cupholders and the window controls angled away from the driver.
4. The interior feels like a VW bug compared to the bigger F30.
Also, if the car is recoded, will I have to redo all of my electronic settings? Presets? Music Hard Drive?
October 11, 2012, 3:20 pm
Bull ****. Apr tunes audi's i dont trust their numbers at all. I found a bunch of dynos of the 2,0t
Here is the 2.0t
I even found an APR dyno,
stock numbers on dyno are 200/225
N20>A4
Good effort but try harder.
October 11, 2012, 3:22 pm
I consider myself a driving enthusiast, and I have no prior history with Audi, BMW nor Hyundai/Kia. So when looking for a sedan, my impressions were:
BMW E90 - slow, sluggish, and lethargic. A very big letdown for "The Ultimate Driving Machine."
Audi A4 Quatro - engine had great low-end punch, loved the ZF 8spd, but lacked acceleration at highway speeds, and had a non-sporty feel to steering and chassis.
Kia Optima SX Turbo - felt like it had much less power than 274 hp, closer to 200 would have said, and no sport feel at all.
BMW F30 - finally a car with decent pull at all RPMs and speeds, plus a responsive chassis.
Based on my E90 drive, I was ready to write off ever owning a BMW. (My only previous drive in a BMW was a Z3 when they first came out - the 1.9L 4cyl sounded and performed about like a kazoo. Ick.) But learning that the F30 got the same 8spd from ZF as the A4 convinced me to give BMW another try, and I'm glad I did. My Sport Line should be delivered sometime next week.
October 11, 2012, 3:23 pm
I think the trick is, save your profile to a USB before you take it in for service.
October 11, 2012, 3:24 pm
N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;
Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.
Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ddxBDAGhKc
When you humble me I will let you know.
October 11, 2012, 3:26 pm
That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
October 11, 2012, 3:27 pm
BMW E90 - slow, sluggish, and lethargic. A very big letdown for "The Ultimate Driving Machine."
Audi A4 Quatro - engine had great low-end punch, loved the ZF 8spd, but lacked acceleration at highway speeds, and had a non-sporty feel to steering and chassis.
Kia Optima SX Turbo - felt like it had much less power than 274 hp, closer to 200 would have said, and no sport feel at all.
BMW F30 - finally a car with decent pull at all RPMs and speeds, plus a responsive chassis.
Based on my E90 drive, I was ready to write off ever owning a BMW. (My only previous drive in a BMW was a Z3 when they first came out - the 1.9L 4cyl sounded and performed about like a kazoo. Ick.) But learning that the F30 got the same 8spd from ZF as the A4 convinced me to give BMW another try, and I'm glad I did. My Sport Line should be delivered sometime next week.
October 11, 2012, 3:37 pm
October 11, 2012, 3:45 pm
I thought you could do better, but apparently not. The BMW had nearly identical numbers and that was with ALL SEASON TIRES
Which car lost the comparison? Hint:It wasn't the BMW
October 11, 2012, 3:53 pm
I thought you could do better, but apparently not. The BMW had nearly identical numbers and that was with ALL SEASON TIRES
Which car lost the comparison? Hint:It wasn't the BMW
October 11, 2012, 3:57 pm
You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?
Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
October 11, 2012, 4:01 pm
I think a comparison of the way cars come equipped is a legitmate comparison since most buyers are going to keep the car stock.
CA
October 11, 2012, 4:04 pm
You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?
Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
October 11, 2012, 4:07 pm
October 11, 2012, 4:10 pm
October 11, 2012, 4:13 pm
October 11, 2012, 4:15 pm
That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
Be careful, might be cited for child abuse.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 4:17 pm
Be careful, might be cited for child abuse.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 4:19 pm
October 11, 2012, 4:23 pm
Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them
October 11, 2012, 4:23 pm
You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?
Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
October 11, 2012, 4:28 pm
not.
October 11, 2012, 4:32 pm
Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them
We win because the F30 is a better car.
We win because we love our cars enough to not need to bash anyone else's to make ourselves feel better.
When I get bitter and angry, I don't go into discussion forums that I don't belong in and pick fights with a bunch of 47 year old dad's, but that's just me.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 4:39 pm
You know what BMW was famous for because you read something in a magazine, now you drive around in a bloated and underpowered 328i and post dyno graphs to make an argument that your used car is better than the brand new one? Really?
Don't you have Pop Warner practice to get ready for? Mom's driving and you don't want to make her late.
BJ
October 11, 2012, 4:41 pm
Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
When you humble me I will let you know.
October 11, 2012, 4:44 pm
October 11, 2012, 4:46 pm
Well, since there's a lot of posturing going on here (nice to know this corner of the Internet is exactly like every other corner of the Internet...
Peak dyno hp:
BMW F30 - 240 hp (Inside Line)
Cadillac ATS - 239 hp (Inside Line)
Hyundai Sonata 2.0 T - 234 hp (Inside Line)
Audi A4 - hard to find a dyno of a stock car on comparable equipment. My general impression is 200 to 210 hp or so?
Recent performance data from C&D:
0-60:
A4 - 5.6 sec
F30 - 5.6 sec
1/4:
A4 - 14.4 @ 95
F30 - 14.2 @ 98
Rolling start:
A4 - 7.2 sec
F30 - 6.5 sec
My thoughts on contributing factors to the A4's acceleration: AWD and 245 width summer tires. Such extra traction helps a lot when launching from a standstil, but as evidenced by the rolling start times doesn't help with outright acceleration once moving. Since that's what I notice most, not having ever launched an A4 or F30 for an acceleration test, the F30 certainly felt much quicker than the A4.
610ft slalom:
A4 - 44.3 mph
F30 - 42.7 mph
Certainly a win for the Audi. But it's a head-scratcher for me, since the A4 didn't feel an more sporty - but I haven't autocrossed either car. I again suspect the tires were the main factor, though - the BMW had 225 width all-season M+S. The other two cars with M+S tires had similar slalom numbers (42.8 and 42.9) and the one other summer tire car had a similar speed to the A4 (44.2.)
IIRC, the F30 I test-drove had summer tires. The one I ordered certainly does.
So in terms of feel and driving excitement - yeah, in my book the F30, with it's N20, is superior.
October 11, 2012, 4:54 pm
The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.
The V-8 makes 429hp.
They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.
Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.
I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
October 11, 2012, 5:12 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:17 pm
The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.
The V-8 makes 429hp.
They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.
Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.
I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
October 11, 2012, 5:19 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:33 pm
The Audi is a great car... I'm not sure why you are trying to convince everyone it's better than the F30.
Clearly you are upset that BMW is not doing "better"... but the 3-series is still winning comparos... and the reason is that comparos aren't won or lost by 0-60 or slalom times but by over-all performance and driving pleasure.
October 11, 2012, 5:35 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:47 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:49 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:52 pm
The Audi is a great car... I'm not sure why you are trying to convince everyone it's better than the F30.
Clearly you are upset that BMW is not doing "better"... but the 3-series is still winning comparos... and the reason is that comparos aren't won or lost by 0-60 or slalom times but by over-all performance and driving pleasure.
October 11, 2012, 5:52 pm
October 11, 2012, 5:58 pm
Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
If the R-Spec was a proper tuned car in the way or AMG or M and under $50k, I would be all for it.
October 11, 2012, 5:58 pm
Trash talking is good for selling magazines.
October 11, 2012, 6:12 pm
As some noted in this tread the major weakness for both the 328i and the 335i IMO are the tires. BMW choose to go with the smaller width for fuel efficiency. I love for one of these car magazines to do a comparison between the S4, 335i and ATS V6 but the 335i having 235s in the front and 245s in the rear summer tires.
October 11, 2012, 6:16 pm
October 11, 2012, 6:25 pm
I am anxious to see an MSport which hàs 255 summer tires out back and the better brake pads. It should give better numbers and present itself better to the more sporting ATS.
October 11, 2012, 6:26 pm
I am anxious to see an MSport which hàs 255 summer tires out back and the better brake pads. It should give better numbers and present itself better to the more sporting ATS.
October 11, 2012, 6:36 pm
IMO it was stupid by BMW, since it decided to go with 3 different packages not to have the sport package with the highest performance tire/wheel combo possible. For the luxury I would go with the quietest and most forgiving RTF available, for the modern I would have gone for the most fuel efficient tire. Its like you are a world class runner and you are running against other world class runners who have spikes running shoes and you have plain old snickers.
October 11, 2012, 6:50 pm
October 11, 2012, 6:53 pm
October 11, 2012, 6:59 pm
Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them
FYI, I do not own a E90, my wife does, I actually tried to talk her into buying the F30, but she like the way the E90 drove better. All I am trying to tell you is that the A4 is a much better car than you think. Stick your head into the rabbit hole and you will see the light.
October 11, 2012, 7:09 pm
October 11, 2012, 7:10 pm
FYI, I do not own a E90, my wife does, I actually tried to talk her into buying the F30, but she like the way the E90 drove better.
October 11, 2012, 7:17 pm
October 11, 2012, 8:19 pm
N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;
Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.
Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 8:30 pm
October 11, 2012, 8:35 pm
October 11, 2012, 9:10 pm
2010 had a lower output 306hp v6 and the 210hp 2.0t.
So super irrelevant to this thread.
But I am the one who should have been humbled. Lol
October 11, 2012, 9:34 pm
2010 had a lower output 306hp v6 and the 210hp 2.0t.
So super irrelevant to this thread.
But I am the one who should have been humbled. Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 9:36 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 9:53 pm
October 11, 2012, 10:02 pm
Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
October 11, 2012, 10:03 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
October 11, 2012, 10:09 pm
And both coupe engines are updated for'13. The 2.0t for'13 is probably 240-245whp
October 11, 2012, 10:10 pm
October 11, 2012, 10:20 pm
230-250whp is pretty underrated when claimed 240 crank.
October 11, 2012, 10:30 pm
230-250whp is pretty underrated when claimed 240 crank.
October 11, 2012, 10:37 pm
I do.
240 at the crank would yield 200-210whp. The n20 with 240-250whp indicates it is underrated by 10-15% which is quite substantial. I have not seen modern examples underrated by much more with other engines.
October 11, 2012, 11:52 pm
Thanks, Voip-Ninja for your thoughtful note. May all your MOS score be 4 or better.
I'm currently driving a 2008 335ix with 70,000 miles. In the spring, I plan to pass that car to my wife, and move to an F30 328i with XDrive. Previous to the e90, I had two A4s (1997, and 2002, which my wife is currently driving), so reading your notes has been very useful.
My one test drive of the F30 confirms that it really feels pretty darn good. Not quite the rumble of the 335, but I can get past that.
John
October 12, 2012, 12:16 am
I'm currently driving a 2008 335ix with 70,000 miles. In the spring, I plan to pass that car to my wife, and move to an F30 328i with XDrive. Previous to the e90, I had two A4s (1997, and 2002, which my wife is currently driving), so reading your notes has been very useful.
My one test drive of the F30 confirms that it really feels pretty darn good. Not quite the rumble of the 335, but I can get past that.
John
October 12, 2012, 12:40 am
(4800/4200) * 211Hp = 241Hp (damn close to the 240HP rating)
So the difference is that you can stay in lower gears and rev up the engine to higher rpmsw with the BMW. The rest of the difference is due to the weight of the A4 and AWD. The vast majority of drivers will only experience the later, not the higher rpms.
October 12, 2012, 12:44 am
October 12, 2012, 12:51 am
October 12, 2012, 12:57 am
That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
October 12, 2012, 1:00 am
You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?
Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
PS: I found the tire they listed and it is indeed a summer tire. Strange, as the pictures show a 4-spoke steering.
October 12, 2012, 1:03 am
audi on th eleft, bmw on the right.
Attachment 345301
October 12, 2012, 1:12 am
audi on th eleft, bmw on the right.
Attachment 345301
October 12, 2012, 1:24 am
(4800/4200) * 211Hp = 241Hp (damn close to the 240HP rating)
I don't know if the difference is due to higher boost, a bigger turbo, or more advanced valve control, or a combination of various factors. But it is interesting how they are nearly identical until about 4,200rpm, but beyond that the 328i surges ahead.
October 12, 2012, 8:38 am
October 12, 2012, 9:54 am
October 12, 2012, 11:14 am
Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.
A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.
So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
October 12, 2012, 11:18 am
Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.
A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.
So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
October 12, 2012, 2:33 pm
I always wondered which would be a better pick
E90 335 With all upgrades
or
F30 328 with all upgrades
October 12, 2012, 2:55 pm
Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.
A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.
So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
Maybe we have another apology heading our way.
October 12, 2012, 3:06 pm
Maybe we have another apology heading our way.
October 12, 2012, 3:09 pm
No manufacturer publishes wheel horsepower. To get a little bit back on track. On paper, the difference between the N20 engine and the outgoing N52 is not that much to fuss about. However in real driving it is extremely palpable, and probably even more so as I'm at 6000 feet and NA engines are knee-capped at that altitude, turbo engines fare much better, which explains their popularity in this market.
October 12, 2012, 4:11 pm
I am only teasing you because you tried to one-up me with info when in fact you had it wrong.
It's all in good fun.
October 12, 2012, 4:14 pm
At the wheels, it's close to a 20% difference. You have a 30% decrease in capacity, at least a 10% improvement in consumption and the 20% increase in torque. When all those factors add up, but you lose the good sound(again, I am one of few with an exhaust and boy does that help) it's a good equation.
I am not trying to be an N20 fanboy, but those are facts.
October 12, 2012, 4:43 pm
I get the numbers, but please make a better exhaust a standard feature! Ask eisenmann Exhaust to make the oem exhaust!
October 12, 2012, 4:50 pm
Very happy with my Rogue Engineering system even in it's prototype stage. Very nice deep sound, no drone. Not over the top.
October 12, 2012, 4:57 pm
Very happy with my Rogue Engineering system even in it's prototype stage. Very nice deep sound, no drone. Not over the top.
it sounds ricer rocket or fartcan.
I'm guessing I'm gonna have to wait till someone comes up with something. As you said rogue enginnering no vids up yet so well have to see.
The N20....classic example of havin ones cake but can't eat it. Great numbers, terrible exhaust note (even with aftermarket fittments)
October 12, 2012, 5:00 pm
Here's a thought. Drive the car and listen to the radio and stop obsessing over what the car muffler sounds like. Honestly, who gives a crap? In 15 years when you are driving an electric car are you going to rig up speakers, an amplifier, and synthetic exhaust sounds so that the other drivers know you mean business?
My Yamaha R1 sounded like a lawn mower.. but it did 0-60 in like 3.9 seconds. Who gives a crap about what it sounds like.
True story. I was driving over to the dealer a few days ago to drop my car off. A kid in a civic pulled up on me with his blown engine and giant fart can. Boy that fart can was impressive. I wonder if he was let-down when my car completely destroyed his 15 year old piece of crap?
October 12, 2012, 5:18 pm
it sounds ricer rocket or fartcan.
I'm guessing I'm gonna have to wait till someone comes up with something. As you said rogue enginnering no vids up yet so well have to see.
The N20....classic example of havin ones cake but can't eat it. Great numbers, terrible exhaust note (even with aftermarket fittments)
So this is really early inside info.
I don't want to put up sound clips until I get the first production unit on the car.
Then I can spill the beans about some of the unique/cool features.
Price will be very reasonable.
It sounds nothing like a fart can or Honda Civic.
October 12, 2012, 5:25 pm
So this is really early inside info.
I don't want to put up sound clips until I get the first production unit on the car.
Then I can spill the beans about some of the unique/cool features.
Price will be very reasonable.
It sounds nothing like a fart can or Honda Civic.
October 12, 2012, 5:42 pm
October 12, 2012, 7:21 pm
At the wheels, it's close to a 20% difference. You have a 30% decrease in capacity, at least a 10% improvement in consumption and the 20% increase in torque. When all those factors add up, but you lose the good sound(again, I am one of few with an exhaust and boy does that help) it's a good equation.
I am not trying to be an N20 fanboy, but those are facts.
F30 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100
E90 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.9
0-100 16.1
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96
(According to C/D)
October 12, 2012, 7:34 pm
F30 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100
E90 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.9
0-100 16.1
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96
(According to C/D)
The 0-100 is showing near a two second difference. Also top gear acceleration will be very telling, as that will show the benefit of torque to pull you through.
October 12, 2012, 7:43 pm
The 0-100 is showing near a two second difference. Also top gear acceleration will be very telling, as that will show the benefit of torque to pull you through.
October 12, 2012, 7:48 pm
October 13, 2012, 6:40 am
My Yamaha R1 sounded like a lawn mower.. but it did 0-60 in like 3.9 seconds. Who gives a crap about what it sounds like.
True story. I was driving over to the dealer a few days ago to drop my car off. A kid in a civic pulled up on me with his blown engine and giant fart can. Boy that fart can was impressive. I wonder if he was let-down when my car completely destroyed his 15 year old piece of crap?
October 13, 2012, 8:56 am
But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.
An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.
A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
October 13, 2012, 9:59 am
But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.
An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.
A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
I did not like the sound of the Eisenmann.
My Rogue so far is a very happy medium. Should cost less than the BMW unit which is only a muffler.
October 13, 2012, 10:02 am
October 13, 2012, 10:15 pm
But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.
An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.
A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
October 14, 2012, 2:45 am
October 14, 2012, 3:07 am
The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.
The V-8 makes 429hp.
They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.
Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.
I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
October 14, 2012, 11:15 am
Yes, but they test the cars the manufacturers provide and if BMW gives them a 3er Sport line with narrow, low rolling resistance tires and Audi gives them an A4 with wide, sticky summers that's what gets tested.
Something else that was interesting(someone pointed this out earlier in the thread) is the a4 that was tested looked to be a non sport model(4 spoke steering wheel) which would have come with all season tires. Anyways, the bmw won the comparo.
October 14, 2012, 11:23 am
Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?
BJ
October 14, 2012, 11:33 am
Yes, but they test the cars the manufacturers provide and if BMW gives them a 3er Sport line with narrow, low rolling resistance tires and Audi gives them an A4 with wide, sticky summers that's what gets tested.
My f-i-l has driven nothing but Accords for twenty years until his new Optima 2.0t which he loves. In'09 I negotiated my wife's loaded Sonata v6 Limited with a $30k sticker down to $19k. It treated her well for 60k miles.
October 14, 2012, 11:49 am
Sounds like new 3-series is step forward from e9x.
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...
Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
October 14, 2012, 11:56 am
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...
Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
October 14, 2012, 11:58 am
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...
Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
October 14, 2012, 12:05 pm
October 14, 2012, 12:50 pm
October 14, 2012, 2:36 pm
October 14, 2012, 2:39 pm
October 15, 2012, 1:16 am
October 15, 2012, 8:38 am
October 15, 2012, 8:56 am
October 15, 2012, 9:04 am
October 15, 2012, 9:24 am
October 15, 2012, 9:42 am
October 15, 2012, 1:03 pm
October 15, 2012, 1:28 pm
CBS' 60 minutes segment demonstrating the sudden acceleration on TV also sent sales of the Audi 5000 plummeting. Of course we all know now that the car on that 60 minutes segment was rigged.
October 15, 2012, 1:36 pm
October 15, 2012, 2:11 pm
I just came off of three years in an E90 M-Sport and wanted something with a little bling on it this time. Away with the no-chrome exterior, away with the all-black interior.
Sometimes you just have to throw a change-up.
BJ
October 15, 2012, 2:14 pm
"On 23 November 1986, 60 Minutes aired a segment greenlit by Hewitt, concerning the Audi 5000 automobile, a popular German luxury car. The story covered a supposed problem of "unintended acceleration" when the brake pedal was pushed, with emotional interviews with six people who sued Audi (unsuccessfully) after they crashed their cars, including one woman whose six year old boy had been killed. Footage was shown of an Audi 5000 with the accelerator moving down on its own, accelerating the car, after an expert witness employed by one of the plaintiffs modified it with a concealed device to cause it to do so."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_minu...d_acceleration
October 16, 2012, 3:02 am
There, google auto complete is the path to almost anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
October 16, 2012, 9:32 am
There, google auto complete is the path to almost anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
October 30, 2012, 9:51 am
And.... I'm back in the E90. The replacement cupholder arrived and I needed a loaner while they install it. I also asked them to look for a new noise in the passenger headliner area as well as some hissing that I've noticed on the stereo.
Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
October 30, 2012, 11:05 am
Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
October 30, 2012, 11:08 am
October 30, 2012, 3:08 pm
October 30, 2012, 5:59 pm
October 30, 2012, 6:16 pm
When I first got the E93 it had a rattle which annoyed the crap out of me. I had previously owned a 1992 Lexus SC300 which was rattle free at 120,000 miles. I knew that the Lexus was going to be a hard act to follow but did not expect the BMW to have a rattle out of the box and was totally bummed out. After a week or so the rattle disappeared and has never returned
CA
October 30, 2012, 7:13 pm
Well, I just got back from picking the F30 up. Cupholder replacement installed and the annoying new rattle was (drumroll please) the passenger side seat belt latch had gotten turned around and was rattling against the door. First time for everything I guess.
I also observed that my dealer did a crummy job washing my car this time around.
Put 80 miles on the loaner E90 (different one than last time but same options) and needed to put 4 gallons of gas in before I turned it back to the dealer. 20 mpg is not so hot especially when I am averaging 30 on my F30.
Final observation. The audio system in the E90 is really lacking. Not only was the stereo a disappointment today but I found that the bluetooth speakerphone is not nearly as good as it is in the F30. I know this as I sat on a 45 minute conference call during my drive north this AM.
October 30, 2012, 7:46 pm
October 30, 2012, 8:47 pm
October 30, 2012, 11:59 pm
Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
Fortunately, I found the one that is coming from the center console in front of the stick shift. The other is my passenger seatbelt buckle that is missing a felt piece that my driver side has. I'm still trying to locate the other one. I figure it's better for me to try and find them instead of waiting for the dealer to tell me that they could not duplicate it (which I also really hate)!
I have been very pleased (and surprised) that my 335is vert has been rattle free.
October 31, 2012, 12:05 am
Fortunately, I found the one that is coming from the center console in front of the stick shift. The other is my passenger seatbelt buckle that is missing a felt piece that my driver side has. I'm still trying to locate the other one. I figure it's better for me to try and find them instead of waiting for the dealer to tell me that they could not duplicate it (which I also really hate)!
I have been very pleased (and surprised) that my 335is vert has been rattle free.
Also, saying I shouldn't complain about rattles in my $52K car because your $125K car has rattles too should not be a factor in an F30 forum... for comparison, rate your annoyance if you complain about your Porsche rattles in a Porsche forum and someone comments that you have it easy because they have rattles in their Bentley or Lambo.
October 31, 2012, 12:23 am
Also, saying I shouldn't complain about rattles in my $52K car because your $125K car has rattles too should not be a factor in an F30 forum... for comparison, rate your annoyance if you complain about your Porsche rattles in a Porsche forum and someone comments that you have it easy because they have rattles in their Bentley or Lambo.
October 31, 2012, 8:46 am
October 31, 2012, 11:40 am
October 31, 2012, 12:03 pm
November 3, 2012, 7:50 pm
I read as many of the posts to this topic as possible before deciding what whether to buy a used E90 or a new F30. I hadn't registered for this site but did so to share my observations and decision since I figured some people would be interested to see how this thread and my test drives affected my purchase.
I test drove an E90 335i with the sports suspension and AT. My Porsche 997 is a stick shift so I wanted something with real back seats and an automatic transmission as traffic often sucks in So Cal.
I found the E90 to be a really nice car. Coming from the Porsche I liked the heavy steering and the slightly raw feel of the E90. It felt more like a sports car than any other 4 door sedan that I have driven (including that boat the Panamera).
I also test drove a new F30 335i M Sport with the AT. I thought it was a really nice car. The head up display was useful and the added headroom in the back was nice. The car did feel more refined than the E90 but not so much so that it felt boring or squishy like a Lexus IS or a non-AMG Benz C Class. The F30 still felt nimble and fun. I did not drive the Modern or Luxury line F30 as I would have no interest in them...
The main thing I was worried about in the F30 was the steering after all the comments I read about it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the steering was still nice and heavy when driven in sport + mode. The dealer took me on the best route possible for where we were and there were some slightly twisty roads. The EPS didn't feel numb. I would be curious to see how it felt on very twisty back roads or on the track. It seemed perfectly fine for spirited driving on most public roads.
I agonized over whether to save a bunch of money by buying a used E90 or plop down the money for a brand new F30 M Sport or a regular one with the sports suspension. I almost went for the M Sport as it was the only way to get that cool blue color that is exclusive to the M Sport package.
It would have costed about $55,000 to get the F30 M Sport with the options I wanted. If I lived farther from work and needed the better MPG I would have done it. But I test drove a 2011 E90 M3 that cost the same and fell in love. It inhales gas but that engine note is just too good.
My advice for those who are contemplating a BMW purchase is to just go for the best car in your budget. I you have $25,000 to spend I'm sure you'll be really happy with a loaded E90 328i or a higher mileage or less optioned 335i.
If you have more to spend go for an F30 328i with the sports suspension. If you have yet more to spend get the F30 335i with all the goodies. And if fuel economy isn't a huge deal just get the E90 M3 or hold out for the F30 M3 if you're willing to pay a higher up front cost to get better MPG and the new body style.
The 3 Series is just a fun car, period. We shouldn't get caught up trying to figure out which one is best. It just depends on how much money you're willing to part with. I've had an E30, two E36, and now an E90. I feel lucky to have had such good cars in my life and hope everyone enjoys their 3s as much as I do, regardless of which model.
November 3, 2012, 7:58 pm
I test drove an E90 335i with the sports suspension and AT. My Porsche 997 is a stick shift so I wanted something with real back seats and an automatic transmission as traffic often sucks in So Cal.
I found the E90 to be a really nice car. Coming from the Porsche I liked the heavy steering and the slightly raw feel of the E90. It felt more like a sports car than any other 4 door sedan that I have driven (including that boat the Panamera).
I also test drove a new F30 335i M Sport with the AT. I thought it was a really nice car. The head up display was useful and the added headroom in the back was nice. The car did feel more refined than the E90 but not so much so that it felt boring or squishy like a Lexus IS or a non-AMG Benz C Class. The F30 still felt nimble and fun. I did not drive the Modern or Luxury line F30 as I would have no interest in them...
The main thing I was worried about in the F30 was the steering after all the comments I read about it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the steering was still nice and heavy when driven in sport + mode. The dealer took me on the best route possible for where we were and there were some slightly twisty roads. The EPS didn't feel numb. I would be curious to see how it felt on very twisty back roads or on the track. It seemed perfectly fine for spirited driving on most public roads.
I agonized over whether to save a bunch of money by buying a used E90 or plop down the money for a brand new F30 M Sport or a regular one with the sports suspension. I almost went for the M Sport as it was the only way to get that cool blue color that is exclusive to the M Sport package.
It would have costed about $55,000 to get the F30 M Sport with the options I wanted. If I lived farther from work and needed the better MPG I would have done it. But I test drove a 2011 E90 M3 that cost the same and fell in love. It inhales gas but that engine note is just too good.
My advice for those who are contemplating a BMW purchase is to just go for the best car in your budget. I you have $25,000 to spend I'm sure you'll be really happy with a loaded E90 328i or a higher mileage or less optioned 335i.
If you have more to spend go for an F30 328i with the sports suspension. If you have yet more to spend get the F30 335i with all the goodies. And if fuel economy isn't a huge deal just get the E90 M3 or hold out for the F30 M3 if you're willing to pay a higher up front cost to get better MPG and the new body style.
The 3 Series is just a fun car, period. We shouldn't get caught up trying to figure out which one is best. It just depends on how much money you're willing to part with. I've had an E30, two E36, and now an E90. I feel lucky to have had such good cars in my life and hope everyone enjoys their 3s as much as I do, regardless of which model.
November 3, 2012, 10:35 pm
I think rattles are usually due to pieces rubbing against each other, especially plastic ones, and wires/harnesses and other things not being properly tied/secured. The rubbing plastic rattles sometimes disappear over time because the rubbing basically "sands" and smooths out the sharp edges that create the squeaks and certain types of rattle.
A long time ago a read and article or saw a commercial - can't remember which - that claimed Audi mounts each car on some hydraulic arm that turns the cars upside down and "shakes them", to see if some any rattles develop. I don't know how effective that is and whether they still do it, but it demonstrated to me how annoying rattles are to customers and how they affect their perception of quality.
November 3, 2012, 10:58 pm
I am going to have to have my wife drive me around tomorrow so I can try to figure out what is causing it. All I know at this point is, it's not the stupid seatbelt latch or buckle.
November 3, 2012, 11:03 pm
November 4, 2012, 12:11 am
November 5, 2012, 3:16 pm
So, as promised I got my wife driving the F30 yesterday and low and behold I could not detect the noise.
I am suspicious that when I got into the car and re-adjusted the seat position, that might have cured it... now the question is did I cure it temporarily or permanently?
I did observe that when the car was last detailed the seat had been moved up and forward, so perhaps when it is at full extension there is a part that is rattling or resonating explaining the problem.
Or perhaps I am simply losing my mind.
November 5, 2012, 4:29 pm
I am suspicious that when I got into the car and re-adjusted the seat position, that might have cured it... now the question is did I cure it temporarily or permanently?
I did observe that when the car was last detailed the seat had been moved up and forward, so perhaps when it is at full extension there is a part that is rattling or resonating explaining the problem.
Or perhaps I am simply losing my mind.
November 5, 2012, 6:59 pm
Yes, I've had plenty of temperature related rattles in cars over the years, however the temperature has been relatively constant over the last week so I don't think that would explain it.
The good news is that I spent two hours driving the F30 today and nothing rattled obviously enough that I was bothered by it. Generally it has to be noticeable over the stereo before I start to get irritated with it.
November 5, 2012, 7:08 pm
I found that if there is something rattling in the heater outlet under the front seats the rattle can sound like it comes from the dash.
CA