E90 loaner... I really miss my F30

by Bimmerfest.com Member - voip-ninja on October 9, 2012, 1:22 pm
So, my dealership has given me an E90 loaner today as they have a laundry list of items to take care of with my F30 including fixing a stubborn squeak in the console as well as giving the car a fresh detailing and giving me a heavily discounted window tint job.

Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.

The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.

The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.

The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.

The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.

All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.


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350 responses to E90 loaner... I really miss my F30

The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:01 pm

Keep in mind your F30 probably cost $10K+ more than the E90. Also, keep in mind that you are comparing a loaded sport package F30 with dynamic suspension to a strip down E90. The F30 is a nicer car than the E90 in some areas, but rather if the F30 is worth the additional premium, that is for one to decide.
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Keep in mind your F30 probably cost $10K+ more than the E90. Also, keep in mind that you are comparing a loaded sport package F30 with dynamic suspension to a strip down E90. The F30 is a nicer car than the E90 in some areas, but rather if the F30 is worth the additional premium, that is for one to decide.
Certainly there is a price difference between the two, but I remain skeptical that even loaded up with options the E90 would offer much competition.

My criteria and that of other buyers will not be the same. However, I do believe that I am in the targeted demographic that BMW is after with the F30. Someone who wants a luxury sedan that is at the same time quite sporty.
shabadoo25 commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:03 pm

Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:04 pm

I haven't driven an F30 but it appears that in many respects it is a step forward from the E90, which it should be since it is a 7 year newer design. My biggest gripe with my E93 which I was able to solve (with no help from BMW I might add) was the harshness of the very poorly sorted out sports suspension and the OEM RFTs. It appears that issue has been greatly reduced, if not eliminated with the F30. As for the transmission I would like to compare an E9x with the ZF transmission (in other words a 335i) to an F30 with the 8 Speed. I found the 6 speed ZF to be a very good transmission but that does not mean there was no room for improvement and I have heard nothing but praise for the 8 Speed ZF. As far as noise goes my 335i is very quiet with the top up. I think the noise you are referring to may be due to the tires.

CA
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
You summed it up pretty well. The E90's steering on the highway is second to none, in the city, some find it too tight while others are just fine with it. If a 3 series handles like a A4 or a S4, why should one buy a 3 series when I can save a few thousand by buying the competition. The F30 is a better overall everyday driver than the E90, but it has lost some of its legendary 3 series attribute and it is becoming more and more like the competition.
g37to335i commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:11 pm

I have had some descent seat time with an E90 328i loaner when I take my X5 for service. Maybe the manuals are more fun but I am yet to be convinced that the e90 328i is more fun to drive than the g37.
shabadoo25 commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:18 pm

The other thing I should mention is that the F30 328i was a quantum leap from the E90 328i. Less so for the 335i.

The new 328i convinced me I didn't need what the 335i had to offer. I don't think the same comparison in the E90 could be made.
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:21 pm

I never found the steering in the E9x to be overly stiff and neither did my wife. I think the steering feel is one of the best attibutes of he car. While I may not object to the fact that the F30 has lighter steering (won't know until I try one) at this point it is not something that I would look for. I also happen to like the E9x cup holders.

CA
Lorenzzo commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:30 pm

Gotta agree VN. I will say I love the feel of the steering on the E90. Overall, it's an excellent car. But now that I've adapted to the steering of the F30 I prefer it.
tturedraider commented:
October 9, 2012, 2:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So, my dealership has given me an E90 loaner today as they have a laundry list of items to take care of with my F30 including fixing a stubborn squeak in the console as well as giving the car a fresh detailing and giving me a heavily discounted window tint job.

Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.

The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.

The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.

The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.

The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.

All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
Good post and observations.

Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I haven't driven an F30 but it appears that in many respects it is a step forward from the E90, which it should be since it is a 7 year newer design. My biggest gripe with my E93 which I was able to solve (with no help from BMW I might add) was the harshness of the very poorly sorted out sports suspension and the OEM RFTs. It appears that issue has been greatly reduced, if not eliminated with the F30. As for the transmission I would like to compare an E9x with the ZF transmission (in other words a 335i) to an F30 with the 8 Speed. I found the 6 speed ZF to be a very good transmission but that does not mean there was no room for improvement and I have heard nothing but praise for the 8 Speed ZF. As far as noise goes my 335i is very quiet with the top up. I think the noise you are referring to may be due to the tires.

CA
CA, I think you are too broad in calling the E9x sport suspension not well sorted. You yourself say you were very pleased with it in Florida. I think it would be more accurate and fair to say it was not designed for the streets of Manhattan. For the most part I have very few issues driving my sport suspension equipped E90 around the streets of Chicago. A few more issues than driving in Fort Worth, Texas, but not many.

The ZF 8AT is in another league all together from the ZF 6AT in the E9x. It is just an outstanding piece of engineering technology.
Meiac09 commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:01 pm

The response from my friends who have all had a non-sport, automatic E90 328i to my car is "Wow, this car is actually good when it has a manual!"

I haven't driven an F30 yet, but I would imagine that the same difference is there between a stripped 328i and one that's well equipped, as mentioned above. The E90's xDrive system was garbage IMO, and giving that up was a quantum leap for me.

Also, the E90 cupholder is great (the hole where the iDrive knob would go, had I ordered it plus a coozie around my drink )
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Good post and observations.

Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.



CA, I think you are too broad in calling the E9x sport suspension not well sorted. You yourself say you were very pleased with it in Florida. I think it would be more accurate and fair to say it was not designed for the streets of Manhattan. For the most part I have very few issues driving my sport suspension equipped E90 around the streets of Chicago. A few more issues than driving in Fort Worth, Texas, but not many.

The ZF 8AT is in another league all together from the ZF 6AT in the E9x. It is just an outstanding piece of engineering technology.
I am hardly the only poster here that had issues with the E9x sport suspension and I did not coin the phrase "Pothole Explosions".

Belive it or not I rarely drive on the streets of Manhattan although on the few occaisions that I did the car was borderline undrivable. The E93 is a weekend car and is only used to get in and out of the city.

I had issues and pothole explosions on Route 46 in New Jersey, in Stamford, Ct, on route 95, on the Grand Central Parkway, an Interstate off-ramp in upstate New York on the way to Watkins Glen, in Putney, Vt. and scores of other places.

On the roads I regularly take through Western Ct. on the way from NYC to Lakeville, CT the rear end would bounce around and step out on bumpy curves. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a well sorted out suspension.

CA
tturedraider commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I am hardly the only poster here that had issues with the E9x sport suspension and I did not coin the phrase "Pothole Explosions".

Belive it or not I rarely drive on the streets of Manhattan although on the few occaisions that I did the car was borderline undrivable. The E93 is a weekend car and is only used to get in and out of the city.

I had issues and pothole explosions on Route 46 in New Jersey, in Stamford, Ct, on route 95, on the Grand Central Parkway, an Interstate off-ramp in upstate New York on the way to Watkins Glen, in Putney, Vt. and scores of other places.

On the roads I regularly take through Western Ct. on the way from NYC to Lakeville, CT the rear end would bounce around and step out on bumpy curves. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a well sorted out suspension.

CA
OK. Was it the type of suspension or the poor quality of the roads? Was the suspension well sorted for the quality of the roads in Florida?

I just completed a 1,100 mile trip on the interstate from Chicago to Fort Worth. I had zero suspension issues.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I haven't driven an F30 but it appears that in many respects it is a step forward from the E90, which it should be since it is a 7 year newer design. My biggest gripe with my E93 which I was able to solve (with no help from BMW I might add) was the harshness of the very poorly sorted out sports suspension and the OEM RFTs. It appears that issue has been greatly reduced, if not eliminated with the F30. As for the transmission I would like to compare an E9x with the ZF transmission (in other words a 335i) to an F30 with the 8 Speed. I found the 6 speed ZF to be a very good transmission but that does not mean there was no room for improvement and I have heard nothing but praise for the 8 Speed ZF. As far as noise goes my 335i is very quiet with the top up. I think the noise you are referring to may be due to the tires.

CA
The 8 speed downshifts like a DCT. It's also very smooth. It's the only thing that left me impressed when I got out of the F30. The car's suspension also sorts out and soaks up any bumps in the road with ease. Even the M-Sport model is 'tame' on the streets of DC.
NoI4plz commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:23 pm

I think this review is an excellent example of personal opinion and preference all mixed in a lovely light read. VoIP ninja wants the next big thing in BMW engineering in a 3 series saloon. Op clearly wants a car that can offer amazing on road performance without sacrificing comfort, and the post clearly exemplifies this. None of the back history of why the new f30 is garbage.

That being said, I do appreciate the last paragraph, but beg to differ. I think if we look at any review we have to consider one thing, what the individual drivers/reviewers preferences are. If you personally think that the f30 is awesome for your needs, then no amount of convincing and debating will probably change that since, your needs are different from those who are convincing otherwise.

For me I think I believe the comment the f30 has gone soft, but that's personally great for me and BMW. I love the handling and road feel communicated on the prior e generation cars. They would always seem ready for anything. However myself and possibly a ton of others hated driving e series cars when you were tired or didn't want to lug around the weighted feeling of the road. That's where Audi and MERC came and offered their take on what a luxury car should feel like, MERC w floaty yet supremely comfortable and Audi with middle ground between mb and BMW. BMW couldn't hold a candle to these two since they were strictly road feel oriented. This generation capitalizes heavily on tuning the car to the individual driver. You have different drive modes, with varying suspension feel, steering feel, engine response and so on. The only thing is you have to pay 2 play which benefits BMW and brings every type of driver to give BMW a chance. This intern helps us by customizing the way we want a car to feel at any given time. However the soft comment comes with the pay 2 play idea. Back when the e90 was sold, you could purchase any model base or high end and expect a classic BMW feel to the car. Road noise was absent, drive 100mph and you felt you were doing 50 since it was built like a tank, and road feel was always there. Try that with a base f30 and you would probably think you were driving a MERC or an Audi, the classic BMW response is missing. However if you check the right boxes and add couple to the msrp that classic BMW is back. That's why I believe the f30 is softer Than the e90.

Finally in regards to comparing the previous generation over the current over transmission, road noise, and other gripes I think it's somewhat unnecessary since, if the next generation doesn't vastly improve over the previous, what's the point of paying for a new vehicle?.... Plus the i4 has To be quieted since they tend to be vastly noiser than 6s (squeal vs rumble)
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 9, 2012, 3:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Good post and observations.

Of course, the four cylinder is still a sore spot with me. I know I can't change it, but I was reminded again yesterday of BMW's past production of smaller displacement inline sixes. I had forgotten they produced a 2.0 liter inline six in the past. I remain convinced if not for laziness they could have produced a smaller displacement inline six with forced induction that would achieve the same fuel economy and emissions as the N20. Especially mated to the fantastic ZF 8AT. Just imagine how enjoyable it would be to drive your 328i with that motor. Instead BMW chose to take the easy and lazy route of just chopping off two cylinders from the N55. They had the opportunity to maintain a unique advantage they held in the market segment and made the decision to forfeit it. It's a shame.


.
Pop the hood on an N20.

Its architecture allows nearly the entire engine to be behind the axle center line. Any inline 6 would have been less than ideal compared to how this is situated.

I also do a lot of my own work. My S52 can be a nightmare. Meanwhile there is a lot of room with the N20, I can basically reach in and place both hands on the turbo.

To me the only thing the N20 lacks is noise. It will never sound like a 6, but it can still sound GOOD. My car is being used as we speak(dyno'ing today) for what should be a great sounding exhaust option.
The X Men commented:
October 9, 2012, 4:04 pm

NoI4plz, very well said. It all depends on the target consumer. For example, I was looking for a well rounded mid size car. The last gen 5 series was not comfortable enough for me, but it was much sportier than the F10, too bad that was not what I was looking for. The same can be said with the F30, its a well rounded car, but the non sport line versions does not feel as sporty as the the base E90. That doesnt make it a bad car if the buyer is looking for a comfortable car with a some sportiness to it. The sport line does offer better sporty feel, but now we are taking about a car in the high $40K and up.
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
OK. Was it the type of suspension or the poor quality of the roads? Was the suspension well sorted for the quality of the roads in Florida?

I just completed a 1,100 mile trip on the interstate from Chicago to Fort Worth. I had zero suspension issues.
It was the suspension.

I could not change the quality of the roads but was (easily and relatively inexpensively) able to change the suspension and was able to solve the problem with absolutely no downside. Cars should be designed to work well in real world conditions that will be encountered by a significant number of drivers. I was not exactly driving on unpaved logging roads. I was driving the car on public roads in heavily populated areas where BMW sells a very large number of cars, and in some cases in not so heavily populated areas where BMWs are not as common.

I did not have an issue with the suspension in South Florida but since the car is no longer in South Florida that is somewhat of a moot point. I also did not have an issue with the heater (and don't in the Northeast either but if I did the fact that it was OK in Florida would be of little consolation if it could not keep up with Northeast winter temperaures). I purchased the car in Palm Beach but did not purchase the "Florida Only" model. I don't think expecting to drive the car in the Northeast without breaking it (8 tires and 5 rims had to be replaced) is unreasonable,

CA
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 4:11 pm

Adjusted for inflation the price of the F30 is similar to the E90 until you get into some of the more esoteric options that weren't even available on the E90 such as adaptive suspension and safety features like overhead parking cameras, advanced cruise control with radar, blind spot detection, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the F30 is a VERY pricy car for what it is.. but that's comparing it to other cars in the segment, not other BMWs (new or old). Back when I test drove the F10 I wanted the F10 feature set but I felt that the F10 drove like a boat. I wanted something just a touch more comfortable/roomy than my B7 A4 but still able to attack corners when called upon and enough get up and go to keep me happy. F30 delivers but yes you have to tick the right boxes.

Honestly, I think for most 3 series buyers, they will probably be delighted with what they get in a base level F30 now that they've added power seats with memory, split rear seat fold-down, etc. If I remember correctly, John said that most of the F30s being sold at their dealership were "strippers". BMW knows their customers well.

I had extensive experience with a base 2012 F30 in CA and I would still say that it would eat the E90 in 90% of situations and spit the seeds out.
NoI4plz commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I had extensive experience with a base 2012 F30 in CA and I would still say that it would eat the E90 in 90% of situations and spit the seeds out.


Thank god, or BMW would have a debacle similar to the new Honda civic in their portfolio.

The idea isn't to compare old 3 design features vs new 3's design feature since each group will say their better, rather compare with minimal bias, does the new improve on the central vehicle features that you the driver hold most important. If it does, than yes your absolutely satisfied and you should have a cheeky smile.if not then its time Rethink your next purchase, and try to find a vehicle that brings a cheeky smile every time you drive it.

samualcc commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:22 pm

Same experience. I had my F30 in for service and they gave me a 2011 E90 loaner. About the only things I enjoyed about it was the engine note (classic BMW) and MAYBE a more connected steering wheel. Otherwise the inside is just awful compared to the F30, the engine is anemic when paired with the old 6 speed auto, and it just felt dark and uninviting to be in.

I also found the steering to be trying to hard on the stiffness. I never thought that stiffness = connectivity. I feel that the sport mode on the F30 is a pretty good middle ground between lexus light, and E90 insane steering heft. Strangely enough my buddies 2007 335i does not have the insane stiffness in the steering, is this something new to the late mode E90s?
NoI4plz commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
Same experience. I had my F30 in for service and they gave me a 2011 E90 loaner. About the only things I enjoyed about it was the engine note (classic BMW) and MAYBE a more connected steering wheel. Otherwise the inside is just awful compared to the F30, the engine is anemic when paired with the old 6 speed auto, and it just felt dark and uninviting to be in.

I also found the steering to be trying to hard on the stiffness. I never thought that stiffness = connectivity. I feel that the sport mode on the F30 is a pretty good middle ground between lexus light, and E90 insane steering heft. Strangely enough my buddies 2007 335i does not have the insane stiffness in the steering, is this something new to the late mode E90s?
Does your buddies 07 have active steering. If so, that changes ratios on the fly,aand tends to feel a lot different then the standard heft of an e90
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 5:32 pm

The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.

Of course I hated the stock sport suspension on my E9x and others have no issue with it at all so who's to say?



CA
JustinTJ commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
When I got home from two weeks of ED driving my new F30, I honestly thought the power steering was broken in my Z3 for the first day driving it.

Maybe I'm getting older, but I'm happy.
beden1 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So, my dealership has given me an E90 loaner today as they have a laundry list of items to take care of with my F30 including fixing a stubborn squeak in the console as well as giving the car a fresh detailing and giving me a heavily discounted window tint job.

Honestly, this E90 is a "nice" car, but it flat out is not in the same league as my F30 in any way shape or form.

The suspension is rock hard but offers no more road feel than I am getting from my F30 with adaptive-m suspension. The E90 is NOISY. I never thought the F30 was particularly silent until I hopped out of my F30 and did the same drive in this car. There was enough additional background and road noise that Siri could not even understand me dictating a text to my wife... something that never happens in the F30, and this is going 20 mph down a packed side street... not even cruising on the highway.

The 3.0 I6 engine and automatic gearbox in this older 328i (I think it's a 2011 with about 6000 miles) is good, but honestly it does not hold a candle to the N20 engine with 8 speed gearbox. Not only is the newer 328i noticeably faster (even when slogging the 200 lbs of x-drive around) but the N20 gives much better fuel economy. I almost always get about 34 mpg on my morning commute, but today, with the loaner I suspect I averaged mid 20's on the same drive.

The E90 also has very firm steering. I thought that my A4 had nice sporty firm steering but the steering on the E90 is VERY firm. I'll take the nicely weighted steering on my F30 in sports mode, thanks.

The E90 interior feels simply primitive compared to the F30.... it felt like I had stepped down to a Camry or Accord and that's not trying to be harsh on the E90. It's simply spartan and/or makes the F30 seem "plush" by comparison. Thin steering wheel, harder to read gauges (what the hell, where's my HUD?), joke of a cupholder (yes on a 1 hour drive I need a coffee at 6AM, sorry die-hards), tighter cockpit, etc.

All in all, I posted this because we have seen a lot of negative comments about how the F30 has gotten "soft". There's nothing "soft" about having a highly capable sports sedan with a much updated interior and technology that is also a blast to drive.
I am glad you like your car, but comparing your new car to a used stripped down loaner with how many miles, is just as ridiculous and uninformed as most of your statements made in this post.

PS: my 2011 335is did not have any squeaks or anything else wrong with it when I picked it up at the dealer. It still has not!
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I am glad you like your car, but comparing your new car to a used stripped down loaner with how many miles, is just as ridiculous and uninformed as most of your statements made in this post.

PS: my 2011 335is did not have any squeaks or anything else wrong with it when I picked it up at the dealer. It still has not!
My comparison doing the same drive, back to back in both vehicles is "ridiculous"? I think you're ridiculous. See how that works?

My commute is 75-86 miles round trip depending on which route I take. It's better than your average 15 minute "test drive".
Zeichen311 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.
+1, same here. I am reminded of the over-boosted steering in early E46 cars, developed to lure potential buyers who complained the E36 steering was "too heavy." The result was quickly dubbed "The Ultimate Parking Machine" and the ensuing backlash was so widespread and sustained that BMW (rather quickly, as such things go) redesigned the steering rack with less boost, made a running production change to incorporate it and offered a free retrofit to any owner who complained.

My, how times have changed....
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
+1, same here. I am reminded of the over-boosted steering in early E46 cars, developed to lure potential buyers who complained the E36 steering was "too heavy." The result was quickly dubbed "The Ultimate Parking Machine" and the ensuing backlash was so widespread and sustained that BMW (rather quickly, as such things go) redesigned the steering rack with less boost, made a running production change to incorporate it and offered a free retrofit to any owner who complained.

My, home times have changed....
All I know is that the steering difference between the E90 and the F30, even when the F30 is in sport mode is quite palpable and especially noticeable when doing, as you suggest "parking lot maneuvers" but is even noticeable during 75-80mph highway cruising. Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.

I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.

As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:36 pm

As an aside, dealer called me, they'll want to keep my F30 for one more day as they just finished tinting it and are still going to detail it. They said that my squeak is in fact in the cupholder itself, and they suspect there might be a bad batch of them, as there is a national backorder on that part. They told me they hope to get one from Germany in 2-3 weeks, I will have to live with it in the meantime.
Zeichen311 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.
I don't recall saying or implying that and I have no feathers to ruffle. I simply find it interesting that a very similar scenario has played out once before in the history of the 3 Series; however, the early indications are the outcome will be very different this time around. The market has changed.
sr5959 commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:51 pm

I had a week with a 2011 E90 x-drive recently, my observations were very similar to OP's, and I am comparing the E90 to my baseline F30.

I wonder if all us F30 owners will eventually become like the E90 owners on this board, watching the forums for the new model like hawks ready to go nuts if someone criticizes 'our' 3-series...
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 9, 2012, 6:55 pm

OP, I am glad you enjoy your car and there is no need to justify your purchase as long as you are happy with it. I am sorry you got "stuck" with a E90, but at the end of the day you got a free loaner. The F30 is a great all around car and an improvement over the E90 making it easier to appeal to a broader customer base. Personally I think it lost a lot of what made BMW great and I also feel the same about the F10 5 series. The F30 is more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan.
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
OP, I am glad you enjoy your car and there is no need to justify your purchase as long as you are happy with it. I am sorry you got "stuck" with a E90, but at the end of the day you got a free loaner. The F30 is a great all around car and an improvement over the E90 making it easier to appeal to a broader customer base. Personally I think it lost a lot of what made BMW great and I also feel the same about the F10 5 series. The F30 is more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan.
You very well might be right. My older A4 was also more of a "sport" sedan than luxury sedan and the F30 is still more enjoyable to drive, even on very challenging roads.

Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?

Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
All I know is that the steering difference between the E90 and the F30, even when the F30 is in sport mode is quite palpable and especially noticeable when doing, as you suggest "parking lot maneuvers" but is even noticeable during 75-80mph highway cruising. Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.

I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.

As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
I think anyone who has followed my posts here over the past 5 years will know that I am by no means a BMW or E9x apologist. As a matter of fact I took a huge amount of flack for daring to say that the Emperor was not wearing any clothes (that the E9x sport suspension was not very well sorted out.)

I have no opinion on the F30 steering since I have never driven one. I do maintain that the steering on the E90 never felt heavy to me and during the time I have had the 335i I have regularly driven a wide range of cars ranging from our 750i, a 650i, Shelbys, Ms. Audio's Jaguar XKR, Vipers, Audis, Mercedes, Porsches, Ferraris, Honda Accords and the occaisional rental Camry.

It has been some time since I drove a car with no power steering (and I have never driven a car with a broken power steering pump) but I don't remember them feeling like my 335i.

I doubt that I will keep the E93 another 7 years and when I do replace it if I want another 3 Series (which is unlikely but I have not ruled that out) it will be an F32 or F33 which is for all practical purposes a coupe or convertible F30.

CA
NoI4plz commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
All I know is that the steering difference between the E90 and the F30, even when the F30 is in sport mode is quite palpable and especially noticeable when doing, as you suggest "parking lot maneuvers" but is even noticeable during 75-80mph highway cruising. Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.

I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.

As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
And so the war between whose got the better vehicle begins.
I'm pretty sure this happens every time the 3 series gets a new generation!


Look you have a great car! Done enjoy!


Optional read:

The f30 is thoroughly adjustable something e90 owners could only dream of (unless you went with coilovers or something similar). Everyone agrees. However when you mention that your, next generation model (that was designed to last till 2019) is doing amazing compared to a model designed to last till 2011 its a duh moment. (next generation models, are suppose to improve on its predecessor). That being said, you do come to that, as evidenced in your op.

However there are couple of things you have to keep in mind for a future review:
1) claiming a stripper, demo 2011 with 6k miles represents the pinnacle of e90 tech...INCORRECT
2) Comparing that particular e90 to your decked out f30....incorrect



Finally to all those wanting to bash the OP, I think we have to realize that he's not trying to discredit the e90, rather talking about the improvements he has noticed compared to the previous generation 3 series.
samualcc commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:09 pm

So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.

Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.

Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
So true. Yep, calling it like I see it.

justinnum1 commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.

Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
It is entertaining.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.

Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
Calm down brozart.
NoI4plz commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
You very well might be right. My older A4 was also more of a "sport" sedan than luxury sedan and the F30 is still more enjoyable to drive, even on very challenging roads.

Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?

Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
I don't think we can expect a reverse in engineering improvements. BMWs portfolio direction is one of a leader and its direction is historically evident. When BMW first hit the market they didn't have many series to sell. However as they grew, their portfolio grew, the number of models they produce grew. Similarly we will see the same trend in the future. In addition I expect them to produce more lines to appeal to more buyers. That in itself predicts that no longer will BMWs models share a similar classic feel. The base model will be the price to pay for entrance into a moniker/label rather than an entry fee for an tight handling road car. After the base, you can tack on a bunch of e options to simulate what we used to get before on BMW base models. But then again, I don't think most buyers will care, as we move into a habit of buying products based off labels rather than quality...who knows #ramblingspeculator
justinnum1 commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:18 pm

Some people are getting upset in this thread lmao. relax, enjoy your e90's.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
You very well might be right. My older A4 was also more of a "sport" sedan than luxury sedan and the F30 is still more enjoyable to drive, even on very challenging roads.

Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?

Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
Ill say it how it is. I don't own a E46, however I think it is a better sport sedan than the E90. I also do not own E36 M3 but I think it is a better sport sedan than the E46 or E90. I don't have much experience with the E30 so I can't really speak about that. I like the idea that the F30 has a more rigid chassis and more balanced placement of the engine. I also think that BMW should have done a better job with steering, braking and handling for the price they are asking. I don't dislike at all I just wish it had little more of the "Ultimate Driving Machine" with a little less Lexus feel with MB pricing.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Some people are getting upset in this thread lmao. relax, enjoy your e90's.
I know, no need to justify your purchase. Enjoy it, who cares if others don't like it.
Zeichen311 commented:
October 9, 2012, 7:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Then again, perhaps I'm getting old. It would be interesting to see what the typical age of an E46 purchaser was, E90 and now F30. Are the cars getting less sporty, the typical owners getting older, or both?

Or, is it possible that the product that the serious enthusiasts want, doesn't have much demand in the market and BMW has decided not to build it any longer?
I suspect the reality is a little bit of each of these. Cars should reflect potential buyers' desires when they are introduced (or, to sell well they had better!) and the 3er is no exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
So funny, we have 5 threads a week with people crapping all over the F30. One negative thread about the E90 and people are all ready telling the OP to keep it quite, and suggesting he is justifying his purchase unnecessarily.

Quickly everyone, to the F30 vs blah blah blah FOTM thread to complain about steering feel!
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Some people are getting upset in this thread lmao. relax, enjoy your e90's.
Which thread are you guys reading? I only saw one post that was remotely an ad hominem attack on Voip, and quite a few pointing out flaws in the E90. (I'm in the captain's camp of not thinking the E90 suspension compared favorably to the E46. However, the E90 was also the first generation designed to work with (then-)heavy RFTs, so it is unsurprising to me that there was room for improvement.)
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Some people are getting upset in this thread lmao. relax, enjoy your e90's.


It would be disingenuous of me to take shots at the E9X having owned two of them and being very happy for the better part of 6 years. While I think the F30 is a quantum leap ahead in terms of design, ride, and technology, the E9X was a great car. I had a lot of fun, I got a lot of looks, and it kept my family safe.

Godspeed, E9X.

BJ
MMME30W commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:34 pm

OP - So let me get this straight.

You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?

Got it.
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
OP - So let me get this straight.

You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?

Got it.
Not only do I "like" my optioned out F30 more. It drives better too which shouldn't have a lot to do with options.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
OP - So let me get this straight.

You are saying you like your brand new F30, optioned out the way you like it, to a ridden hard, put away wet, service loaner 328i AT?

Got it.
The E90 feels like a heavy car with truck-like steering and low acceleration compared to the F30.

The F30 is a more refined car. It happens. BMW improves. Some go along for the ride.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 9, 2012, 8:43 pm

My e92 M3 has got nothing on your F30 335i. The F30 is Gods gift to man. Another annoyance I have is the 328 sounds like a diesel truck. BMW couldn't refine that engine noise? The F30 has strayed away from what BMW use to call 'performance'. It's a granny mobile. It may still be nice to drive, but it's lost it's responsiveness. This is a trend with ever since the F01 came out. BMW has fallen last in each of it's respective categories that it's been compared in. It's sad to see.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
My e92 M3 has got nothing on your F30 335i. The F30 is Gods gift to man. Another annoyance I have is the 328 sounds like a diesel truck. BMW couldn't refine that engine noise? The F30 has strayed away from what BMW use to call 'performance'. It's a granny mobile. It may still be nice to drive, but it's lost it's responsiveness. This is a trend with ever since the F01 came out. BMW has fallen last in each of it's respective categories that it's been compared in. It's sad to see.
Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?

BJ
MMME30W commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Not only do I "like" my optioned out F30 more. It drives better too which shouldn't have a lot to do with options.
Hey no worries, it's all good. I was just teasing.

I have yet to test drive an F30. The front snount seems over large to me, but from what I gather that is due more to EU pedestrian impact standards than styling. Otherwise I'm sure it's a nice car. Not quite sure I can get to a turbo 4 banger, at least in the first year of production in the states. We will see how they last over time and whether or not there is a lurking HPFP issue awaiting buyers.

For sure BMW is listening to their target market. If the buyers in focus groups and follow up surveys are looking for more gizmos, features and sheer HP (not to mention size, and let's face it, comfort) than the competition, you can hardly blame them for keeping up. It's all about the almighty dollar/Euro/yen these days anyways...

Fortunately, for knuckle-dragging mouth breathers like me, the heart of BMW still beats on in the form of the S65B40 4.0L, 90 degree V8 that revs to 8,000+ RPM equipped with a six speed, manual-freaking-transmission that God und Baron von Falkenhausen intended.

Carry on.
Michael Schott commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
All I know is that the steering difference between the E90 and the F30, even when the F30 is in sport mode is quite palpable and especially noticeable when doing, as you suggest "parking lot maneuvers" but is even noticeable during 75-80mph highway cruising. Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.

I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.

As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.
There's not much difference between a 2011 E90 and a 2007 E90. The LCI in 2009 was cosmetic and in 2011 it seems the suspension was fixed to be less abrupt. I wouldn't expect major tangible changes to the F30 over the years except hopefully a software change to recalibrate the EPS.

Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.

I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.

A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?

BJ
Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.
Just joking, of course.

Great car, enjoy.

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 9, 2012, 9:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.
M3 has nothing to apologize for.
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's not much difference between a 2011 E90 and a 2007 E90. The LCI in 2009 was cosmetic and in 2011 it seems the suspension was fixed to be less abrupt. I wouldn't expect major tangible changes to the F30 over the years except hopefully a software change to recalibrate the EPS.

Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.

I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.

A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.
I have yet to drive an F30 but suspect that it is evolutionary rather than a "Quantum Leap". From all reviews it is a very good car and I suspect that it will sell very well and the vast majority of the people who purchase it will be satisfied customers.

I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track. R&T gave the victory to the 328 while stating that the ATS outperformed it on the skidpad and slalom. (I will interject here and say that I think that it is rather remarkable how close Cadillac has come in its first attempt against a car that has been being developed for close to 50 years.)

I think what R&D says about the 3 Series sums up the way I feel about cars, or in particular road cars. At the limits the Cadillac outperformed the BMW. But how often do we drive at the limits? I am sure there are some reading this who will say they drive at the limits (and perhaps a few have, but for the vast majority making that claim a few laps around a track as a passenger with a professional race driver at the wheel will knock that notion out of their heads pretty quickly).

I do not purchase cars to "Race Soccer Moms in School Zones" or to drive like a maniac on twisty roads (sorry BJ). I want a car that gives me the "feel" and enjoyment that I want along with giving me comfort while performing the task that I use a car for, which is getting from one place to another. If I want to play race car driver I have an outlet for that.

You do not have to be at the limits to appreciate a well balanced good handling car. Most modern cars (yes even the Accords and Camrys we are so fond of dumping on here) are very capable of being driven well above the speed limit.

So most of the time we are either driving at the speed limit or a bit above it. What separates the good from the bad in that scenario is the way the car feels while we are doing that. A 328i with standard suspension does not feel the same as a 335i with sport suspension even when they are both being driven at conservative speeds. Both good cars, each with its own advantages but they feel different. A more extreme example would be a Camry, which while perfectly capable of safely cruising at a steady 75 miles per hour on an interstate, does not feel the same as a BMW 750. Both will safely get you where you are going in comfort but the experience is not the same.

My 335i, in its stock form was supposedly a luxury sport coupe (or convertible in my case). As it turned out without some work it left something to be desired in both categories. It was way to harsh to qualify as a luxury car and too skittish over bumps to be a particularly good sports car. If the F30 gave up a bit of the "engaging" feel of the E9x to eliminate the harshness, then I think that a lot of people would be happy with that.

I personally want the best of both worlds, and I know from experience that I can have it. BMW did not give it to me on the E93 and if they cannot give it to me on the F30 I will be looking elsewhere. I was able to get the 335i where I wanted it, but frankly I want the car that replaces it to be the way I want it the day I take it home, not after two years of torture, research and experimenation.

To be continued after I test drive an F30 . . . . . and before I decide to purchase one it is going to be an EXTENSIVE test drive like the one I had with the 750 not like the 15 minute test drive I had in a 335i.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have yet to drive an F30 but suspect that it is evolutionary rather than a "Quantum Leap". From all reviews it is a very good car and I suspect that it will sell very well and the vast majority of the people who purchase it will be satisfied customers.

I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track...

CA
The "quantum leap" doesn't come from enthusiasts because that's not where the leap takes place.

The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.

It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 10:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The "quantum leap" doesn't come from enthusiasts because that's not where the leap takes place.

The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.

It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.

BJ
Without trying to sound like I am knocking the F30 (which I am not) I will stand by my statement that it is evolutionary. Probably more like the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 4.

The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.


CA
bayoucity commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:03 pm

I've quite an opposite experience regarding F30. While my E90 was in the shop for SRC mixer recall & software reset, my dealer provided F30 328i loaner for 9 days. Firstly, I've to say BMW really does an excellent job on F30's suspension especially when driving on city streets & cruising around town. In fact, that's my favorite memory of F30. However, I still prefer E90's suspension when cruising on interstate highways. E90 provides firmer ride & more feedback.

Now, my least favorite feature of F30 is its steering. Again, I'm not here to re-start the flame. I am simply saying that steering can be "light" & "heavy", the most important job of steering unit (in my opinion) is to provide additional feedback. There is no dispute, F30's EPS unit is on the lighter side whereas E90's HPS has a heavy feel to it. My problem with F30's EPS is not really about the "lightness" , rather it is about the numbness. The best I can describe this sensation is like letting a blind man driving an E90 and he will be able to tell which side of the wheel is running over the uneven surface or potholes. On the other hand, it will make it much difficult for him to differentiate such sensation while driving F30.

Before F30 fanboys start chastising me, please comprehend I have nothing against heavy or light steering. I do have problem with numb steering especially that's the reason I order a BMW and not Lexus. If BMW is going down the road to make EPS unit default on most vehicles, please make an effort to improve liveliness. Due to the nature of EPS design versus HPS, it is very difficult to duplicate "hydrualic damping" effect. It is not entirely impossible because I recently test drove 2013 Boxster & Porsche nails it right. That's some well-designed EPS unit. Although it feels lighter than E90's HPS, it is lively and no numbness. I dream of such an unit in upcoming M3.

The saving in fuel consumption isn't much in reality when HPS is replaced by EPS. BMW is smart to not muddy the waters when they introduce F10 M5 + F12/13 M6. They went back to HPS unit for M cars even thought EPS are readily available.

Just my 2 cents.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Without trying to sound like I am knocking the F30 (which I am not) I will stand by my statement that it is evolutionary. Probably more like the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 4.

The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.

CA
My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.

2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.

2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.

BJ
1. I have absolutely no interest in a Baby 7.

2. I seriously doubt that I would hate it as it is from all indications a very good car. I never drove an E36 or an E46 and while they were being produced had no interest in owning a BMW.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Just joking, of course.

Great car, enjoy.

BJ
Thank you. Now if the stupid boat would land....
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 9, 2012, 11:53 pm

BJ, change those wheels. They're an eye sore.
beden1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So true. Yep, calling it like I see it.

Based on what experience?
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Thank you. Now if the stupid boat would land....
An M3 is fun in the winter. Imagine all the drifting you can do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
BJ, change those wheels. They're an eye sore.


I love 'em.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
OK. Was it the type of suspension or the poor quality of the roads? Was the suspension well sorted for the quality of the roads in Florida?
Perhaps the early generation run flats were also partly to blame
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
Same experience. I had my F30 in for service and they gave me a 2011 E90 loaner. About the only things I enjoyed about it was the engine note (classic BMW) and MAYBE a more connected steering wheel. Otherwise the inside is just awful compared to the F30
It was also awful compared to the competition. Frankly, every time I see an E90 (dozens a day), it looks so dated and so tiny, tiny like an older Civic. The coupe looks fresher. I sat in a black on black sedan and I was not impressed one bit. In that sense, the new 3 at least looks and feels expensive.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.
Most folks here haven't even driven a car without power steering I once took over driving a friend's large pickup truck without power steering on some serious twisties. Now that's heavy steering

Quote:
Of course I hated the stock sport suspension on my E9x and others have no issue with it at all so who's to say?
The consensus seemed to me that if you were going to drive a lot on city roads, the E9x was best bought without the sport package.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
An M3 is fun in the winter. Imagine all the drifting you can do.






I love 'em.

BJ
In that case, enjoy in good health.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The F30 is a great all around car and an improvement over the E90 making it easier to appeal to a broader customer base. Personally I think it lost a lot of what made BMW great and I also feel the same about the F10 5 series. The F30 is more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan.
I bet BMW bean counters have been steaming red for a long time watching lots of people buy Lexus & Co. I personally know many people who have expressed dislike for their German luxury car and hoped onto softer riding Lexus models. I even know people who have said "I don't want to feel the road," I want to be shielded from it.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.
That's the F10. It's a pig. A boat. You pick. Even Consumer Reports expressed disgust. Thankfully, the 3 seems to have escaped the piggyfication.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors.
But obviously it came at a price. You now want to tighten the handling.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
That's the F10. It's a pig. A boat. You pick. Even Consumer Reports expressed disgust. Thankfully, the 3 seems to have escaped the piggyfication.
Yes, I dislike the F10. Got a loaner, hated it. It's huge.

BJ
sunny5280 commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think what R&D says about the 3 Series sums up the way I feel about cars, or in particular road cars. At the limits the Cadillac outperformed the BMW. But how often do we drive at the limits? I am sure there are some reading this who will say they drive at the limits (and perhaps a few have, but for the vast majority making that claim a few laps around a track as a passenger with a professional race driver at the wheel will knock that notion out of their heads pretty quickly).[
This has always been my argument when discussing AWD versus RWD.
sunny5280 commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
The consensus seemed to me that if you were going to drive a lot on city roads, the E9x was best bought without the sport package.
Even without the sports suspension the E90, at least my 330xi, had harsh suspension. I experienced the suspension "crash" more often than I would have preferred. And, I suspect, cracked a wheel because of it.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
You very well might be right. My older A4 was also more of a "sport" sedan than luxury sedan and the F30 is still more enjoyable to drive, even on very challenging roads.
You are coming from an Audi, much like myself, thats why you enjoy the lighter steering. The sport line's steering feels a bit tighter than the other two line and the no line. Even for an ex-Audi guy like myself, those other line's steering is too light in comfort mode. Sure one can pit it in sport mode, but they would have to put up with the jerky accelaration and poor gas mileage that goes with it.
CALWATERBOY commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.

Find steering not overly firm....? You're right - wouldn't want less effort.

And remember:
If yer teeth don' rattle
you losin' the battle
Then again I run Yellows. But, hey, grips good. Awaiting M4.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I bet BMW bean counters have been steaming red for a long time watching lots of people buy Lexus & Co. I personally know many people who have expressed dislike for their German luxury car and hoped onto softer riding Lexus models. I even know people who have said "I don't want to feel the road," I want to be shielded from it.
What does that have to do with me? I've owned nothing but fairly sport sedans and coupes over the past 20 years.
Daedalus34r commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.
This. Why are we praising limp steering? Sounds like people want a Lexus but with a BMW badge so they can still be in the club. I can turn the E46/E90 steering with my pinky and im not even that strong. Should used E90s be sold with a gym membership instead of a CPO warranty? LOL
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
This. Why are we praising limp steering? Sounds like people want a Lexus but with a BMW badge so they can still be in the club. I can turn the E46/E90 steering with my pinky and im not even that strong. Should used E90s be sold with a gym membership instead of a CPO warranty? LOL
1. I don't want to be in any "club". I don't care what badge is on the car as long as it isn't KIA or Hyundai.

2. I test drove everything in the segment at least twice before deciding on the F30 as a replacement for my aging B7, which by the way, was considered the last A4 with "good handling and firm steering".

3. I test drove on the most challenging kinds of roads that I will typically ever drive on which consists of lots of switchbacks on public roads... roads where I might be inclined to bend the rules a bit, but still won't push the car anywhere near the limits, not only for my own safety but for that of others.

As to driving the E90 with a pinky... well, good luck with that.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:07 am

I'm on my 2nd day with the E90, time for a 2nd 75 mile round trip drive to Westminster on a combination of suburban streets and highway. Wish me luck. My F30 should be detailed and ready for pick-up later this morning or early this afternoon... it sucks that the cupholder is on national backorder.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
This. Why are we praising limp steering? Sounds like people want a Lexus but with a BMW badge so they can still be in the club. I can turn the E46/E90 steering with my pinky and im not even that strong. Should used E90s be sold with a gym membership instead of a CPO warranty? LOL
Out of respect for the members of this new car forum, we request that you please turn off your signature showing an old, used car.

Thank you.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I'm on my 2nd day with the E90, time for a 2nd 75 mile round trip drive to Westminster on a combination of suburban streets and highway. Wish me luck. My F30 should be detailed and ready for pick-up later this morning or early this afternoon... it sucks that the cupholder is on national backorder.
Remember, your SA should have placed some Advil, a pulley, and a lumbar cushion in the trunk for just this type of unfortunate situation.

I just can't believe that BMW would put you through this humiliation.

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Remember, your SA should have placed some Advil, a pulley, and a lumbar cushion in the trunk for just this type of unfortunate situation.

I just can't believe that BMW would put you through this humiliation.

BJ
I'm getting a re-detail for free, a free tank of premium, a loaner for two days, 1/2 off on getting the windows tinted (new pics soon!) so.... I can live with my squeaky cupholder for another couple of weeks.

Hopefully once the new one shows up they will have me in and out of there pronto.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:22 am

Comments in another thread reminded me of something else in this comparison.

The E90 stereo system (at least the base one) is simply terrible compared to the one in the F30. Now I know that most E90 fans could care less about how the stereo sounds since they have it turned off to listen to the music that the wonderful I6 engine makes, but for those of us who do long boring drives the sound system quality is of paramount importance.
sunny5280 commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
1. I don't want to be in any "club". I don't care what badge is on the car as long as it isn't KIA or Hyundai.

2. I test drove everything in the segment at least twice before deciding on the F30 as a replacement for my aging B7, which by the way, was considered the last A4 with "good handling and firm steering".

3. I test drove on the most challenging kinds of roads that I will typically ever drive on which consists of lots of switchbacks on public roads... roads where I might be inclined to bend the rules a bit, but still won't push the car anywhere near the limits, not only for my own safety but for that of others.

As to driving the E90 with a pinky... well, good luck with that.
The responses you've received from owners of older generation BMWs is to be expected. It happens every time a new generation is introduced. Those with the older generations defend it as the best generation and the new as lacking in comparison. It happened with the E36 -> E46 transition. The E46 to -> E9x transition. And now with the E9x to F3x transition.
Spagolli94 commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Keep in mind your F30 probably cost $10K+ more than the E90. Also, keep in mind that you are comparing a loaded sport package F30 with dynamic suspension to a strip down E90. The F30 is a nicer car than the E90 in some areas, but rather if the F30 is worth the additional premium, that is for one to decide.
Agree. Back when I had my 2006 330i, it was loaded. Every option available. Adaptive steering, dynamic cruise, all packages, Logic audio, sport, cold weather, you name it. It was my favorite color and had beautiful saddle brown seats, etc.

Anyway, whenever I got a loaner, it always felt like a turd, even though they were both E90s! It was like they were totally separate cars. The loaner had crappy non-sport seats, no seat heaters, ugly color interior, boring slush box, etc. It always felt like a huge downgrade, even though it was technically the same model.

Sure, some of the improvement you're noticing is the jump from E90 to F30. But a lot of the improvements might have to do with the fact your car has nice options, compared to the stripped-down loaner.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
The responses you've received from owners of older generation BMWs is to be expected. It happens every time a new generation is introduced. Those with the older generations defend it as the best generation and the new as lacking in comparison. It happened with the E36 -> E46 transition. The E46 to -> E9x transition. And now with the E9x to F3x transition.
Sure, and this is all in good fun. I'm trying to get Windsor to stop in since he's gushing all over his F30 which replaces an E90.... clearly the man is a poser.

I created this thread as, by reading the E90 forum, one would believe that the launch of the F30 signals the apocalypse for "true BMW boy racer diehards"!

windsor027 commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
This. Why are we praising limp steering? Sounds like people want a Lexus but with a BMW badge so they can still be in the club. I can turn the E46/E90 steering with my pinky and im not even that strong. Should used E90s be sold with a gym membership instead of a CPO warranty? LOL
you can't be more wrong. In the sport or sport + setting the F30 has IMO a great steering feel. is it as direct as the E90. No but its close. You people have to remember this is not a mechanical steering. But to say its limp is way out of line.

You E90 folks remind me of all the Porsche 911 people that went ballistic with the same issue. And I bet 95% of those people didn't drive a car with this steering setup. Just repeated what other said. My opinion is BMW did a great job with the F30 steering. In Eco and Comfort, yes its very very light, I don't like it. In sport and sport + however its just about perfect for me.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Out of respect for the members of this new car forum, we request that you please turn off your signature showing an old, used car.

Thank you.

BJ
It is beautiful so he won't.

Thank you.
justinnum1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:57 am

All the e90 owners are that are bitching now will be F30 owners in 2-3 years when their current leases run out
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Comments in another thread reminded me of something else in this comparison.

The E90 stereo system (at least the base one) is simply terrible compared to the one in the F30. Now I know that most E90 fans could care less about how the stereo sounds since they have it turned off to listen to the music that the wonderful I6 engine makes, but for those of us who do long boring drives the sound system quality is of paramount importance.
The last things you should be buying a 3 series for are the stereo, technology and luxury features. You can get those for a lot less in a Lexus.
tturedraider commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
you can't be more wrong. In the sport or sport + setting the F30 has IMO a great steering feel. is it as direct as the E90. No but its close. You people have to remember this is not a mechanical steering. But to say its limp is way out of line.

You E90 folks remind me of all the Porsche 911 people that went ballistic with the same issue. And I bet 95% of those people didn't drive a car with this steering setup. Just repeated what other said. My opinion is BMW did a great job with the F30 steering. In Eco and Comfort, yes its very very light, I don't like it. In sport and sport + however its just about perfect for me.
In sport mode I'm perfectly fine with the F30 steering. I don't have extensive driving time in the F30, but I found the steering to be just as direct and precise as the steering in my E90. I have active steering in my car and the F30 steering in sport mode feels very similar.

The steering in the F30 is, in fact, mechanical. It has electric power assist, but the steering rack has a direct mechanical operation.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It is beautiful so he won't.

Thank you.
My little daughter often visits my office while I post, looks over my shoulder.

Please, think of the children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The last things you should be buying a 3 series for are the stereo, technology and luxury features. You can get those for a lot less in a Lexus.
Lexus? You're kidding, right?

If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:

1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.

2. All legends die, especially aged automotive status-symbols.

BJ
Michael Schott commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
The responses you've received from owners of older generation BMWs is to be expected. It happens every time a new generation is introduced. Those with the older generations defend it as the best generation and the new as lacking in comparison. It happened with the E36 -> E46 transition. The E46 to -> E9x transition. And now with the E9x to F3x transition.
I don't have negative feelings about the F30 and it has certain benefits vs the E90 but this is the first time that car magazines have said that the new generation is not an improvement on the old for enthusiasts.
bayoucity commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
In sport mode I'm perfectly fine with the F30 steering. I don't have extensive driving time in the F30, but I found the steering to be just as direct and precise as the steering in my E90. I have active steering in my car and the F30 steering in sport mode feels very similar.

The steering in the F30 is, in fact, mechanical. It has electric power assist, but the steering rack has a direct mechanical operation.
Correct on precise, direct & mechanical. Both EPS & HPS have mechanical linkages (no drive-by-wire yet), however the overzealous electric power assist at the onset of every turn is causing the "numbness" on all EPS equipped BMWs. It takes great design and engineers to make an awesome EPS such as the one in 2013 Boxster.

Again, I'm not here to knock off F30 or anyone. I prefers both light (such as 2013 Boxster) & heavy (E90) steering unit as long as it isn't numb and provide feedback. Although I prefer E90 on interstates, I can still live with F30's suspension. BMW has done an excellent job on F30's suspension. I really dig the suspension. It'll be a dream to have E90's HPS + F30's suspension combo. Just another 2 cents.
shabadoo25 commented:
October 10, 2012, 12:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't have negative feelings about the F30 and it has certain benefits vs the E90 but this is the first time that car magazines have said that the new generation is not an improvement on the old for enthusiasts.
If BMW made business decisions based on enthusiasts, they'd be a niche company you'd have barely heard of.

When my dealer has 3s in stock, do you know what configuration they are? Mostly stripper no lines. Why? The majority of their customers want the $399 base lease. Only the badge matters to them.

Everyone on here arguing about M Adaptive and tech packages are outliers.
tturedraider commented:
October 10, 2012, 1:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Correct on precise, direct & mechanical. Both EPS & HPS have mechanical linkages (no drive-by-wire yet), however the overzealous electric power assist at the onset of every turn is causing the "numbness" on all EPS equipped BMWs. It takes great design and engineers to make an awesome EPS such as the one in 2013 Boxster.

Again, I'm not here to knock off F30 or anyone. I prefers both light (such as 2013 Boxster) & heavy (E90) steering unit as long as it isn't numb and provide feedback. Although I prefer E90 on interstates, I can still live with F30's suspension. BMW has done an excellent job on F30's suspension. I really dig the suspension. It'll be a dream to have E90's HPS + F30's suspension combo. Just another 2 cents.
As I mentioned I have active steering in my E90 and the EPS in the F30, set to sport, feels the same to me. I didn't choose to have active steering in my car (I bought it used), but I like it. I don't know if the EPS is over-zealous or not. It may feel that way 'cause it's not active until the wheel begins to turn.

btw - ZF supplies Porsche's EPS, too. They gave the job to ZF because their system is "so good". ZF also supplies the same EPS system to Ford. It is in use in their Super Duty trucks. I spoke to a ZF rep at the NAIAS in Detroit in January. He said the feel is entirely up to the programming the auto manufacturer chooses. Maybe down the road BMW or a third party will offer alternate programming to modify the steering dynamics.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My little daughter often visits my office while I post, looks over my shoulder.

Please, think of the children.



Lexus? You're kidding, right?

If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:

1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.

2. All legends die, especially aged automotive status-symbols.

BJ
The new ES350 offers a lot more in terms of luxury, technology, power and styling for the same or less than the F30.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
All the e90 owners are that are bitching now will be F30 owners in 2-3 years when their current leases run out
I agree, in 2-3 years, BMW will have fine tune the electric steering, refine the 4 cyl engine, stiffen the ride up a bit, improve inetrior material, lower the price and add more standard options.
justinnum1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I agree, in 2-3 years, BMW will have fine tune the electric steering, refine the 4 cyl engine, stiffen the ride up a bit, improve inetrior material, lower the price and add more standard options.
lol at you thinking any of that will happen before an LCI.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I agree, in 2-3 years, BMW will have fine tune the electric steering, refine the 4 cyl engine, stiffen the ride up a bit, improve inetrior material, lower the price and add more standard options.
The F 30 is one of the best-selling cars in the world.

BMW isn't going to change anything mechanical. Cosmetic facelift, of course. Everything else, status quo.

BJ
sr5959 commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
This. Why are we praising limp steering? Sounds like people want a Lexus but with a BMW badge so they can still be in the club. I can turn the E46/E90 steering with my pinky and im not even that strong. Should used E90s be sold with a gym membership instead of a CPO warranty? LOL
When I got my first E90 loaner I thought the steering was ridiculously heavy, but I did get used to it after a few days. I then had a couple more E90 loaners which both had the M-Sport package with that really nice thick steering wheel, and I must admit I started to get used to it and like it a lot.
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:35 pm

deleted
The X Men commented:
October 10, 2012, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
lol at you thinking any of that will happen before an LCI.
Oh, I forgot the LED signal lights, the thicker steering wheel and a smoother ASS, opps, did I say that
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 3:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I agree, in 2-3 years, BMW will have fine tune the electric steering, refine the 4 cyl engine, stiffen the ride up a bit, improve inetrior material, lower the price and add more standard options.
One would hope so. If not I will look elsewhere.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:27 pm

Okay!

So, I got a second day with the E90 under my belt before turning it in and picking up my F30. Here are my observations.

The heavier steering starts to grow on you and is actually fairly similar to the steering in my B7 Audi.

However, the steering is unnecessarily heavy-handed at lower speeds (not just parking lot maneuvers but even just making rapid turns at 20-30 mph on side streets in the burbs).

I took the same tight sweeping left-hander today that is on my alternate return route from my work. I have taken this road many times with the F30. What I would say is that road feel (there is some bumpy pavement, etc) at 80-90 mph on this nice sweeper is VERY similar between the two cars.... WHEN the F30 is in sport mode. Certainly the stock E90 suspension and steering are much firmer than they are on a stock suspension F30.

I did not feel that the E90 provided enough additional feedback that it would warrant a claim that it is BETTER than the F30, only that it is different, and certainly might appeal to different drivers.

I filled up the E90 and observed that I had put about 180 miles on its clocks in the time I had it and had burned 8.5 gallons of fuel. Not very good milage. Doing the EXACT same type of driving, filling up my F30 I would get about 30-32 mpg and that's with a car with fewer miles. I don't know that too many people would choose one sports sedan over another solely based on mileage but it is a fact worth considering.

Also, to the comments that my loaner E90 was "stripped"... it was not. It had a moonroof, heated leather power seats, climate control, etc. Obviously it seriously suffered in the tech department as it had no i-drive, no navigation, etc. I would say that I prefer the cockpit layout and layout/accessibility of controls GREATLY on the F30 over the E90.



I picked up my F30 and they had done a great job with the detailing and window tint. They buffed off whatever cosmoline/residue was on the driver's side tail light and the car looks showroom ready again.

First stop with the new car was picking up some lunch. I chose.... shawarma (because you know, all of us who prefer F30s are middle eastern leaning terrorist-wannabes). Driving over to the lair of middle eastern food preparers I immediately noticed how CRAZY LIGHT my F30 steering was. No really, it was palpable coming from the E90. Now... here's the interesting part... I had just as readily noticed that with the E90 the steering when I started driving it felt like it was way too heavy, especially at lower speeds... but, I got used to it.

So, maybe instead of this being a right vs. wrong issue, maybe it's a preference issue, and maybe (just maybe) if someone who is antagonistic towards either setup actually drove it for a couple hundred miles they might adjust to it and, in some cases might find that the system they initially detested was GOOD, or at minimum livable.

Just a thought.

P.S. I still greatly prefer my F30 to the E90.

F30 with tinted windows at the shawarma hut;



And at the casa while I run in, gobble down that middle eastern fare and prepare to race back to the office...

Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:34 pm

Black is definitely beautiful when it's freshly detailed like that. The stock wheels are pretty darn nice.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Black is definitely beautiful when it's freshly detailed like that. The stock wheels are pretty darn nice.
Well, they are stock in the sense that they are the sport package rims... which cost me a pretty penny since x-drive cars don't get sport suspension too.
NoI4plz commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:46 pm

What tint percentage?

On a side note, I would love them to add more finite controls over the driving profiles on the f30. Yes i know most people prefer just clicking a profile and be done, but adding some more finite profile options, like the percentage of assist from the eps, or dialing in exact amount of suspension travel, exhaust note or throttle percentages. I'm pretty sure there standard on the m3-4 but something similar as an option would be a plus. And all those seeking further tailoring of the cars driving dynamics would be satisfiying at least to me and others.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
What tint percentage?

On a side note, I would love them to add more finite controls over the driving profiles on the f30. Yes i know most people prefer just clicking a profile and be done, but adding some more finite profile options, like the percentage of assist from the eps, or dialing in exact amount of suspension travel, exhaust note or throttle percentages. I'm pretty sure there standard on the m3-4 but something similar as an option would be a plus. And all those seeking further tailoring of the cars driving dynamics would be satisfiying at least to me and others.
It's tinted at whatever is just shy of the legal limit, they use the same 3M tint on all of their cars (they are one of the few dealers I've run into that does tint work in house instead of subbing it out). I got a good price and like it medium-dark so I wasn't that interested in exactly what they used.

I actually agree with you. I would like the ability to customize the drive settings even more than is currently possible. I would like comfort mode to make the throttle slightly less responsive (better fuel economy) and the suspension more oriented towards soaking up the bumps, but keep the steering in the sport setting mode.

I would expect that a lot of these niggles will be addressed over the next 2-3 model year cycles. There's a reason I leased.... I don't want to be driving the 1st iteration of a new model for 7-9 years.
NoI4plz commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:01 pm

Complelty agree, I think the earliest we can see this happen is either LCI, or next f- series of the 3 series
jlukja commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
....
So, maybe instead of this being a right vs. wrong issue, maybe it's a preference issue, and maybe (just maybe) if someone who is antagonistic towards either setup actually drove it for a couple hundred miles they might adjust to it and, in some cases might find that the system they initially detested was GOOD, or at minimum livable.
...
You're a dreamer.

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlukja View Post
You're a dreamer.

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
You forgot human sacrifice, and that's my FAVE!! Remember, I like shawarma.

justinnum1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:23 pm

The F30 is different than the E90, but not in a bad way. I had E90 328 and 335 and after putting 7000 miles on the F30, i prefer the steering more. When i need it to be stiff i can go to sport mode, when i want a nice relaxing drive i go to eco pro. What's funny is the E90 owners coming in the F30 forum and having to voicing their displeasure with the car(most of these posters havent even driven the car yet lol).

Those that can't live with the new steering, let us all know when you get your audi, mercedes or cadillac, and how it is. Most of you guys will be driving an F30 soon anyways tho lol.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Okay!

So, I got a second day with the E90 under my belt before turning it in and picking up my F30. Here are my observations.
Great writeup.

When I went from my E90 328i and drove the F30 328i for the first time I was blown away by how quick the car was, how light it felt, and how much easier it was to steer. I'm assuming that the difference in quickness and lightness is more apparent to 328i owners because of the weight difference and the power boost, perhaps 335i owners won't feel the same joy.

The authentic 3 Series "feel" is still there; you just need to pay more for it, get the right suspension, get one of the Sport lines, done.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The new ES350 offers a lot more in terms of luxury, technology, power and styling for the same or less than the F30.
It's slower than the F30 and only has power on paper(it actually makes 270+hp at the crank)

I wish BMW would re-rate this engine as the typical buyer will have no clue about whp/vs manufacturers claims.
bayoucity commented:
October 10, 2012, 5:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
...

The authentic 3 Series "feel" is still there; you just need to pay more for it, get the right suspension, get one of the Sport lines, done.

BJ
+ 1 boltjames

I think you might be onto something. I'm holding out on M3 to see if BMW will keep HPS in it much like F10 M5.
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 6:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It's slower than the F30 and only has power on paper(it actually makes 270+hp at the crank)

I wish BMW would re-rate this engine as the typical buyer will have no clue about whp/vs manufacturers claims.
The F30 has nothing to apologize to Lexus about. The tech in the BMW is better. The BMW handles better. The BMW is faster. The BMW automatic transmission is MUCH better. The BMW is roomier inside and more comfortable. The main thing that the Lexus wins on is "value". They are highly reliable and less expensive than a similarly equipped BMW.
justinnum1 commented:
October 10, 2012, 6:09 pm

Lexus ES is cheaper because it's pretty much a toyota with different sheet metal and some soft leather seats.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
+ 1 boltjames

I think you might be onto something. I'm holding out on M3 to see if BMW will keep HPS in it much like F10 M5.
If you've watched the reviews on the F30 done in early 2012 most of them are Luxury or Modern versions with the standard suspension. There's one where a racecar driver chick is tooling around the track in a Modern line. And, ironically, every time they "win" the comparo or are mentioned as "still very much the segment leader".

So the E90 folks, like the E46 people before them, find the one or two controversial areas and pick at them like a bloody scab. Meanwhile, two things will certainly happen:

1. They'll take a test drive with the appropriate suspension.

2. They'll lease on on the spot.

BJ
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:01 pm

Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
Kilgore Trout commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:19 pm

This thread is hysterical. And, I say that not as a shot at the OP but as a shot at chatboard behavior. Every few months I see a thread pop up on the E90 board which essentially states "I own an E90, and I got a loaner that was configured in different way than my car, and my car is a lot better! I can't wait to get it back!" I've done it myself.

The reality is that somebody who spent $40,000+ on a car is not going to get an earlier model as a loaner and then declare the loaner to be the better vehicle. Nobody human could be that objective.

Also, we all tend to like what we are used to. I see lots of threads criticizing the seats in various loaner cars and I'm certain that is about a driver having to get used to seats different than the ones he drives every day.

All that said, I am an E90 owner who will NOT be upgrading to an F30. I had an F30 for a week as a loaner, and I thought it was a major upgrade in some ways and a major downgrade in others. I loved the power and responsiveness of the turbo engine, the overall behavior of the transmission, and I thought the suspension (even in the non-sporting modes) offered a far better ride/handling tradeoff than anything in the E90 line. I also thought the seats were wildly comfortable.

On the downsides, I find the F30 steering to be numb and it feels light and overly boosted to me. I can't begin to agree with those of you who see it as superior (or even close to being the equal of) the E90.

Also on a less positive note, there was a very significant decrement in the quality of SOME materials in the interior (IMO). The center console area, in particular, felt low rent to me.

The F30 is definitely a significant increment on many levels, but there are some real misses there as well.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
This thread is hysterical. And, I say that not as a shot at the OP but as a shot at chatboard behavior. Every few months I see a thread pop up on the E90 board which essentially states "I own an E90, and I got a loaner that was configured in different way than my car, and my car is a lot better! I can't wait to get it back!" I've done it myself.

The reality is that somebody who spent $40,000+ on a car is not going to get an earlier model as a loaner and then declare the loaner to be the better vehicle. Nobody human could be that objective.
I can be pretty objective.

There were things I preferred about my E92 loaner over my F30. My loaner had a higher MSRP too.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
I read those threads too, and I think that there was an element of surprise that wasn't expected, at least by me.

I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.

I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.

I thought that the car would retain it's bone-shattering too-tight suspension. Dead wrong.

I thought the Luxury/Sport/Modern lines would be distasteful. Dead wrong.

I thought the styling would be questionable. Dead wrong.

I thought the technology would still be shady BMW-style. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would cost me more than my prior one. Dead wrong.

The F30 exceeded every expectation I had. Truth be told, like many of us, I was going turn my E90 lease into an F30 lease unless they had screwed it up so badly that I was driven away. I'm loyal that way, comfortable with BMW. Not only didn't they screw it up, they made it much much better from a non-enthusiasts perspective. Couldn't be happier.

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:37 pm

Well, I do consider myself an enthusiast of sorts. I've driven tons of cars and I still think that the F30 retains an element of sportiness (at least in the configuration I optioned) that feeds my darker side (you know... the "cut loose when no one is around in the dead of night" side). When it comes to real "serious" performance... cars are kind of boring after riding 350 lb 180 horsepower super bikes.

Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.

Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
Kilgore Trout commented:
October 10, 2012, 7:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I do consider myself an enthusiast of sorts. I've driven tons of cars and I still think that the F30 retains an element of sportiness (at least in the configuration I optioned) that feeds my darker side (you know... the "cut loose when no one is around in the dead of night" side). When it comes to real "serious" performance... cars are kind of boring after riding 350 lb 180 horsepower super bikes.

Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.

Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
Granted, I have just had an F30 as a loaner and did not drive it particular hard. But, it felt every bit as sporty in terms of suspension dynamics as my E90. I suspect the entire "getting soft" thing relates more to the F30 having a fairly comfortable ride.

The only aspect of the F30 that is less sporty than the E90 is the steering, and that is not really a BMW issue. The entire industry is moving toward EPS.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I read those threads too, and I think that there was an element of surprise that wasn't expected, at least by me.

I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.

I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.

I thought that the car would retain it's bone-shattering too-tight suspension. Dead wrong.

I thought the Luxury/Sport/Modern lines would be distasteful. Dead wrong.

I thought the styling would be questionable. Dead wrong.

I thought the technology would still be shady BMW-style. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would cost me more than my prior one. Dead wrong.

The F30 exceeded every expectation I had. Truth be told, like many of us, I was going turn my E90 lease into an F30 lease unless they had screwed it up so badly that I was driven away. I'm loyal that way, comfortable with BMW. Not only didn't they screw it up, they made it much much better from a non-enthusiasts perspective. Couldn't be happier.

BJ
Incorrect. You purchased a different vehicle and now you are flip-flopping.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I do consider myself an enthusiast of sorts. I've driven tons of cars and I still think that the F30 retains an element of sportiness (at least in the configuration I optioned) that feeds my darker side (you know... the "cut loose when no one is around in the dead of night" side). When it comes to real "serious" performance... cars are kind of boring after riding 350 lb 180 horsepower super bikes.

Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.

Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
That would be pretty cool actually. I think there are also some critical advantages that the F30 has over the E90 in terms of performance and driving dynamics. It has a more rigid chassis, more balanced engine placement vs the long I6 and of course cheap power upgrades due to FI.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, they are stock in the sense that they are the sport package rims... which cost me a pretty penny since x-drive cars don't get sport suspension too.
True and there's nothing stock about them other than they come with the Sport package. I usually change wheels and I have the same ones but this time I'm keeping them.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Incorrect. You purchased a different vehicle and now you are flip-flopping.
No.

I purchased my third 3 Series in 6 years and was worried that they might have ruined it. Thankfully, I was wrong.

Just like you.

I'm assuming you drive an E90 Sport. I owned both an E90 M-Sport and an F30. I think I'm quite qualified to comment on the attributes of both cars. Keep reading your magazines, I'm sure they teach you a lot.

BJ
voip-ninja commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
That would be pretty cool actually. I think there are also some critical advantages that the F30 has over the E90 in terms of performance and driving dynamics. It has a more rigid chassis, more balanced engine placement vs the long I6 and of course cheap power upgrades due to FI.
Frankly I think if they did it they'd come away with their hat in their hands for all the BS they've been spouting, because the E90 would be better than the E46 and the F30 would be better than both.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:56 pm

Nothing fulfills the thrill of riding a bike.
Lorenzzo commented:
October 10, 2012, 8:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No.

I purchased my third 3 Series in 6 years and was worried that they might have ruined it. Thankfully, I was wrong.

Just like you.

I'm assuming you drive an E90 Sport. I owned both an E90 M-Sport and an F30. I think I'm quite qualified to comment on the attributes of both cars. Keep reading your magazines, I'm sure they teach you a lot.

BJ
I read some of the stuff on here and then just kind of smile to myself when I'm driving.
captainaudio commented:
October 10, 2012, 9:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Lexus ES is cheaper because it's pretty much a toyota with different sheet metal and some soft leather seats.
The ES350 is based on the Camry and shares a lot of parts with it but is in most ways a much more refined car than the Camry.

The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.

The previous generation IS-F had a ride that was very harsh. Much harsher than an E9x with sport suspension.

CA
Michael Schott commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, I do consider myself an enthusiast of sorts. I've driven tons of cars and I still think that the F30 retains an element of sportiness (at least in the configuration I optioned) that feeds my darker side (you know... the "cut loose when no one is around in the dead of night" side). When it comes to real "serious" performance... cars are kind of boring after riding 350 lb 180 horsepower super bikes.

Perhaps a four door 1 series will retain more of the character of the E90 that the E90 fans are feeling is lacking in the F30.

Also, I've seen critiques brought up of C&D indicating that they felt the E90 might "beat" the F30 on the track (much like they indicated that the E46 would beat both). I'd really like to see C&D put their money where their mouths are, and do a "has BMW gotten soft" story in which they put the F30/E90/E46 through the wringer, so we can find out just how "soft" the big old softie really is.
Car and Driver is not saying the E90 would be faster on the track that I can recall. What they are saying is if there were a comparison test between the two in their magazine the E90 would win. They feel the major drawbacks of the F30 vs the E90 are a slightly softer suspension, softer brake feel and most of all the EPS. It's just a lesser car for an enthusiast than the F30 to them.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The ES350 is based on the Camry and shares a lot of parts with it but is in most ways a much more refined car than the Camry.

The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.

The previous generation IS-F had a ride that was very harsh. Much harsher than an E9x with sport suspension.

CA
That's because Lexus is a re-badged Toyota.
captainaudio commented:
October 10, 2012, 10:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
That's because Lexus is a re-badged Toyota.
I don't know what happened to Lexus but they definitely lost their way. My 92 SC300 coupe was one of the best cars I ever had. It was a really great GT car, very refined, excellent ergonomics, a great balance between comfort and performance and it felt like it was carved out of a solid block of steel. If they had continued to devlop that model I would have seriously considered another. As it turned out they had replaced it with the SC430 retractable hardtop convertible, which I had no interest in at all. We wound up getting the E93 as the New York car and a Jaguar XKR as the Florida car.

It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.

CA
sunny5280 commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't have negative feelings about the F30 and it has certain benefits vs the E90 but this is the first time that car magazines have said that the new generation is not an improvement on the old for enthusiasts.
I'm glad I'm capable of independent thought and don't need to rely on a magazine to make my decisions for me.
PoweredbyCamry commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Oh, boy. You are opening a can of worms. To some boy racer types, that very firm steering is why you buy a BMW.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Trying to drive an E90 over rough terrain was positively teeth rattling. The F30 is a "better for all occasions" BMW, though the E90 might trump it in one or two. Not the cupholders, though.
I know you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek there, but I'd just like to point out that steering weight is a matter of personal preference driven by experience that doesnt have anything to do with being a "boy racer". Both my wife and my mom prefer heavy steering, feeling that it makes a car feel more planted. Neither has anything resembling upper body strength nor could I even remotely call them car enthusiasts. The fact that one is coming off 16 years in an Acura Integra with heavy steering and the other came off 18 years driving an E30 325iX probably has something to do with it.

The difficult thing for people who like some weight to the steering is that there's just nowhere else to go. Drove the A4, C250, Acura ILX, they are all even lighter and more devoid of feel. BMW was the last holdout. For me I prefer a little weight, but it's also important that effort builds with cornering load, so that the steering helps you sense how hard the front tires are working, and goes light when they lose grip. I call it like I see it. My S2000 is IMHO completely let down in its mission of being a pure driving machine by it's lack of steering feel. OTOH my 2009 Honda Fit has way better steering than any $16k ****box has any right to have. In fact, I can't find a single characteristic of our new VSS equipped F30 steering-even in sport mode- that is better, at 3x the price.

I do respect that others feel differently and that time marches on. Personally I agree that the engine/transmission of the F30 328i is a masterpiece, the ride/handling balance is better, and the interior is nicer. The only things I miss from the E90 are the steering and the comparative lack of complexity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
+1, same here. I am reminded of the over-boosted steering in early E46 cars, developed to lure potential buyers who complained the E36 steering was "too heavy." The result was quickly dubbed "The Ultimate Parking Machine" and the ensuing backlash was so widespread and sustained that BMW (rather quickly, as such things go) redesigned the steering rack with less boost, made a running production change to incorporate it and offered a free retrofit to any owner who complained.

My, how times have changed....
I remember that! Drove my friends' 2001 330Ci and couldn't believe how light it was!
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
What does that have to do with me? I've owned nothing but fairly sport sedans and coupes over the past 20 years.
It's got nothing to do with you It was just a comment about how many German luxury car drivers have moved to Lexus because of the softer ride, and BMW cannot be completely oblivious to that fact.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Lexus? You're kidding, right?

If I wanted to get thrown out of the country club I'd just paint graffiti on the walls, would be a lot less painful. Two things:

1. A rebadged Toyota is not a luxury car.
But I know one person who bought a Lexus precisely because it was a re-badged Toyota, with presumably Toyota quality and reliability (this was a few years back).
boltjaM3s commented:
October 10, 2012, 11:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But I know one person who bought a Lexus precisely because it was a re-badged Toyota, with presumably Toyota quality and reliability (this was a few years back).
Oh I did the exact same thing with Acura product because it was a rebadged Honda, absolutely.

And then I made a lot of money and that was the end of that.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
These were the same reactions I had when I started reading F30 reviews and comments, but my sarcasm was mostly directed at the engine. Rags and boards were relentless about the sewing-machine sounding four-banger in the A4, they were outraged about paying $30+K for a turbo four-banger, and on and on. But now that BMW has joined the bandwagon, turbo fours are great, their mileage is great, their light weight makes the car more agile, and on and on. It's hilarious.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
On the downsides, I find the F30 steering to be numb and it feels light and overly boosted to me. I can't begin to agree with those of you who see it as superior (or even close to being the equal of) the E90.
I am sure some third party vendor will soon offer adjusting assist levels through programming. If not possible already, I suspect BMW will eventually change the adjustments interface to allow individual control of throttle, suspension, and steering settings (should be trivial given the idrive interface).

The 2013 A4 also got an electric-motor assisted steering, and I am almost sure you can already change the assist level through VAG-COM.
captainaudio commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
It's got nothing to do with you It was just a comment about how many German luxury car drivers have moved to Lexus because of the softer ride, and BMW cannot be completely oblivious to that fact.
BMW has surpased Lexus in sales so I am not really sure how many BMW drivers have gone to Lexus.

If Lexus made a car that I liked I would have no qualms about buying one and I don't care who called it a Rebadged Toyota.

CA
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I read those threads too, and I think that there was an element of surprise that wasn't expected, at least by me.

I thought the 4 cylinder engine would be awful. Dead wrong.

I thought the adjustable "modes" would just be savvy marketing. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would feel bigger. Dead wrong.

I thought the car would be slower. Dead wrong.
You have to sit back and ask yourself why you thought these things.

My guess is because of the uninformed mindless brain-washing by the auto press.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I suspect the entire "getting soft"...
My view is that BMW is getting softer (especially the 5), but not necessarily soft.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The ES350 is based on the Camry and shares a lot of parts with it but is in most ways a much more refined car than the Camry.

The ES350 is not really intended to compete with the 3 Series. The Lexus that goes against the 3 is the IS, which is a unique platform to Lexus and has no corresponding Toyota model.
Good job setting the record straight.
Quote:
The previous generation IS-F had a ride that was very harsh. Much harsher than an E9x with sport suspension.
The IS-F was the equivalent of the M3. It was a beast not many people have even heard about.
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
These were the same reactions I had when I started reading F30 reviews and comments, but my sarcasm was mostly directed at the engine. Rags and boards were relentless about the sewing-machine sounding four-banger in the A4, they were outraged about paying $30+K for a turbo four-banger, and on and on. But now that BMW has joined the bandwagon, turbo fours are great, their mileage is great, their light weight makes the car more agile, and on and on. It's hilarious.
Don't you worry, BMW B38 will soon give N20 a run for their money.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
These were the same reactions I had when I started reading F30 reviews and comments, but my sarcasm was mostly directed at the engine. Rags and boards were relentless about the sewing-machine sounding four-banger in the A4, they were outraged about paying $30+K for a turbo four-banger, and on and on. But now that BMW has joined the bandwagon, turbo fours are great, their mileage is great, their light weight makes the car more agile, and on and on. It's hilarious.
Wake up and smell the future. Small displacement, high efficiency is here to stay.
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Wake up and smell the future. Small displacement, high efficiency is here to stay.
Thank you Justine. You just proven my point.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Thank you Justine. You just proven my point.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMW has surpased Lexus in sales so I am not really sure how many BMW drivers have gone to Lexus.
Enough. Remember, there was not even Lexus to speak of not long ago. I am sure some of their customers who came from non-luxury brands would have never gone the route of German luxury cars, but there is no denying that the took away customers from German manufacturers.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
These were the same reactions I had when I started reading F30 reviews and comments, but my sarcasm was mostly directed at the engine. Rags and boards were relentless about the sewing-machine sounding four-banger in the A4, they were outraged about paying $30+K for a turbo four-banger, and on and on. But now that BMW has joined the bandwagon, turbo fours are great, their mileage is great, their light weight makes the car more agile, and on and on. It's hilarious.
It's not hilarious; it's called "survival".

1984 the first CD players started to hit the market. Really expensive stuff, very niche at the time. Stereo Review magazine's most respected writer, think his name was Ken Pohlmann, comes out with an article whose premise was that "because it's all digital, all CD players sound exactly the same so pick any one you want and don't worry about it", then went on to talk about the virtues of vinyl.

By 1985, Stereo Review magainze and it's most respected writer were doing CD player comparo after comparo about the Sony this and the JVC that and the Technics this and the Pioneer that, and the horsepower wars of 8x oversampling and the color of the laser and the refraction angle of the mirrors and all that other stuff and it went on and on for 20 years.

If the Car & Driver's and Motor Trend's of the world stick to their elitist 6 cylinder views there's a whole lot of enthusiasts and generalists that are going to stop buying their pulp. Technology is evolutionary; reporting on it is usually prefaced with a cold bucket of reality.

BJ
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Awww my bad Justin.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You have to sit back and ask yourself why you thought these things.

My guess is because of the uninformed mindless brain-washing by the auto press.
Truth is, it was the E90 discussion forum. We come here to seek the truth, get the pure answer without the advertising money and without the agendas in the way.

Read thread after thread about how the F30 was going to be too big, too wide, too soft, too plush, not to mention the blasphemy of the 4 cylinder engine. This car was going to be too disconnected from its heritage and too expensive for its powerplant. I was going to hate it, have to go look at Mercedes Benz.

Then I took an F30 test drive and I swear it took all of 30 seconds pulling out of the BMW driveway into 60 MPH traffic flow to realize that this was the lightest, tightest, most effortless engine/transmission combo I'd ever experienced. And that was before I appreciated how comfortable the ride was and how rocket-like Sport mode was. And then I stopped smiling just long enough to notice the interior design and the head-up display and the iDrive enhancements and that was that. Took all of 5 minutes.

I'm at the 8 week marker now, only have one issue with the car and it's only when I feel like driving like a maniac (very rarely) so I can let that go, get a thicker set of sway bars for my Luxury line someday.

My first impressions tend to be the best, they've helped me throughout my life and my career. The day I got the car I said this was the greatest 3 Series ever made and will shatter the sales records of those that came before it. I think I was right.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
October 11, 2012, 1:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
These were the same reactions I had when I started reading F30 reviews and comments, but my sarcasm was mostly directed at the engine. Rags and boards were relentless about the sewing-machine sounding four-banger in the A4, they were outraged about paying $30+K for a turbo four-banger, and on and on. But now that BMW has joined the bandwagon, turbo fours are great, their mileage is great, their light weight makes the car more agile, and on and on. It's hilarious.
Mercedes also jumped on the bandwagon. The "Big Three" German competitors are now all on the same power plant playing field. It's a real shame BMW did that to themselves. However, BMW does have the best turbo four banger, in spite of the diesel-esque sounding direct injection. What does it say about Audi that BMW beat them at their own game at their first at bat?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 11, 2012, 1:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMW has surpased Lexus in sales so I am not really sure how many BMW drivers have gone to Lexus.

If Lexus made a car that I liked I would have no qualms about buying one and I don't care who called it a Rebadged Toyota.

CA
Qualms are re-badged concerns.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 1:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Read thread after thread about how the F30 was going to be too big, too wide, too soft, too plush, not to mention the blasphemy of the 4 cylinder engine. This car was going to be too disconnected from its heritage and too expensive for its powerplant. I was going to hate it, have to go look at Mercedes Benz.

Then I took an F30 test drive and I swear it took all of 30 seconds pulling out of the BMW driveway into 60 MPH traffic flow to realize that this was the lightest, tightest, most effortless engine/transmission combo I'd ever experienced.
That means you are an open minded person who can think for himself despite overwhelming hysteria pushing him in other directions.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 11, 2012, 1:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Mercedes also jumped on the bandwagon. The "Big Three" German competitors are now all on the same power plant playing field. It's a real shame BMW did that to themselves. However, BMW does have the best turbo four banger, in spite of the diesel-esque sounding direct injection. What does it say about Audi that BMW beat them at their own game at their first at bat?
It is not that simple. You have to remember that the 2.0T was initially setup for a model below a naturally aspirated V6. So its power was to a great extent capped by the requirement to be slated a decent distance below the V6's.

Audi has had a 265Hp version of the same engine for a while now in the TTS.

It also has a 2.5L five-banger than produces 360Hp/343lb-ft (a mini-monster).

So it is not like Audi cannot put a more potent version in the A4.

You also have to realize that BMW had been turbo charging aircraft engines 50+ years ago and that it has made many turbo engines for cars since the seventies. Someone here pointed out to me that BMW was not new at this game, and after doing just a little bit of research, I realized how right he was and how wrong my own assumptions were about this.

Finally, cost, marketing, and different choices for balancing reliability with performance influence what engine these companies end up using. Either one could easily make engines that far surpass the ones currently fielded in their cars.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 7:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
That means you are an open minded person who can think for himself despite overwhelming hysteria pushing him in other directions.
I for one am shocked that internet forums would foster overwhelming hysteria .
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 7:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Qualms are re-badged concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
That means you are an open minded person who can think for himself despite overwhelming hysteria pushing him in other directions.


You guys order Chinese food from the same restaurant last night?

BJ
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 8:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
That is so true, some of these fanboys in here use to criticized the competition for various attributes such as soft steering, 4 banger engine and soft suspension, but when BMW started to design those same attribute into their cars, all of a sudden, it’s a stroke of genius. Another good example is when these fanboys made fun of Audi because all their cars are starting to look alike, now BMW is doing the same thing.
shabadoo25 commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:08 am

Well, I joined the club with voip today. Dropped off my F30 for FEM replacement and I'm in a stripper E90 328i.

And when I say stripper, I mean stripper. No comfort access, no satrad, nothing. When I hit the gas to get on the interstate, I was shocked by the delay before it did anything.

Please, please, please let this repair take less than a week.
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't know what happened to Lexus but they definitely lost their way. My 92 SC300 coupe was one of the best cars I ever had. It was a really great GT car, very refined, excellent ergonomics, a great balance between comfort and performance and it felt like it was carved out of a solid block of steel. If they had continued to devlop that model I would have seriously considered another. As it turned out they had replaced it with the SC430 retractable hardtop convertible, which I had no interest in at all. We wound up getting the E93 as the New York car and a Jaguar XKR as the Florida car.

It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.

CA
As an ex-Lexus man myself, I agree with you. Lexus certainly have lost their way, and that new cooperate front end really push it over the edge for me. My first Lexus was a used LS430, that thing felt like a rock, it just takes a beating and keeps on ticking. The solidness of the LS430 was on par with my current F10. I had 3 more Lexus after that, each one was lower in quality compare to the last, ending with my 2008 GS350 which was a rattle trap. I would imagine all these quality problem in some way must have to do with Lexus's aggressive cost cutting strategy. Sometimes the affect of the cost cutting doesn’t manifest itself on the factory floor or during factory testing.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Reading some of the posts in the F30 discussion threads makes me laugh a little. I remember when the F30 wasn't released yet almost everyone was stating how much better the E90 was then the competition because of its steering, handling and balance. It didn't matter that it had "dated" interior because that was not why you bought BMW for. Most would call the A4 "soft" and posted negative comments about the turbo four. Funny how things have changed and now it is the BMW that is "soft" around the edges, comes with a four cylinder and gets terrible reviews about its steering feedback. Bottom line is that most members here would criticize the competition for exactly the same reasons the F30 is criticized by the magazines
Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
That is so true, some of these fanboys in here use to criticized the competition for various attributes such as soft steering, 4 banger engine and soft suspension, but when BMW started to design those same attribute into their cars, all of a sudden, it’s a stroke of genius. Another good example is when these fanboys made fun of Audi because all their cars are starting to look alike, now BMW is doing the same thing.


BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Well, I joined the club with voip today. Dropped off my F30 for FEM replacement and I'm in a stripper E90 328i.

And when I say stripper, I mean stripper. No comfort access, no satrad, nothing. When I hit the gas to get on the interstate, I was shocked by the delay before it did anything.

Please, please, please let this repair take less than a week.
It's criminal that BMW thinks this is appropriate for F30 drivers.

E90 people are used to being mistreated like this; it's an outrage what they put you and VoIP through. Hang in there. This nightmare will be over soon. Just don't let your neighbors see you in that out of style mess; they'll uninvite you to the Halloween block party, make your wife cry, not worth it.

BJ
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Mercedes also jumped on the bandwagon. The "Big Three" German competitors are now all on the same power plant playing field. It's a real shame BMW did that to themselves. However, BMW does have the best turbo four banger, in spite of the diesel-esque sounding direct injection. What does it say about Audi that BMW beat them at their own game at their first at bat?
How is the BMW four better than Audi?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
How is the BMW four better than Audi?
Power is even across the curve while the 2.0T falls flat on it's face in the mid to upper range.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Power is even across the curve while the 2.0T falls flat on it's face in the mid to upper range.
Power isn't everything and despite being much heavier and down on HP the A4 2.0T post nearly identical numbers as the F30.
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
How is the BMW four better than Audi?
The real question shall be " How are BMW & Audi 4 banger better than Hyundai's ?"

Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
voip-ninja commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
How is the BMW four better than Audi?
It's quite a bit more powerful. Based on dyno numbers it probably has closer to 275 hp at the crank.
sean10mm commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
The real question shall be " How are BMW & Audi 4 banger better than Hyundai's ?"

Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
Not really. Google "N20 underrated"
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:45 am

Audi choose to detune the 2.0T engine for better refinement. As someone have already mentioned, Audi have version of the 2.0T engine that is more powerful than the N20. I have driven both the Audi A4 and the F30, although the F30 is a tad bit quicker, the A4's powertrain is definitely more refined. To say the N20 is far better than the 2.0T is just not true, both engines have been on the Ward's 10 best engine list.
tturedraider commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Another good example is when these fanboys made fun of Audi because all their cars are starting to look alike, now BMW is doing the same thing.
"Same sausage, different lengths" didn't originate in the last couple of years. This has been BMW's SOP for decades. The E65/66 & E60 were aberrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
How is the BMW four better than Audi?
Find out for yourself. Drive it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
The real question shall be " How are BMW & Audi 4 banger better than Hyundai's ?"

Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
No, it won't be and no it isn't. As good as Hyundais may have gotten in recent years they do not compete with BMW, or Audi or Mercedes.
voip-ninja commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Audi choose to detune the 2.0T engine for better refinement. As someone have already mentioned, Audi have version of the 2.0T engine that is more powerful than the N20. I have driven both the Audi A4 and the F30, although the F30 is a tad bit quicker, the A4's powertrain is definitely more refined. To say the N20 is far better than the 2.0T is just not true, both engines have been on the Ward's 10 best engine list.
Yes, they both made the list, however for 2011 the N20 was added to the list and the Audi/VW 2.0T was dropped from the list if I remember correctly. That should tell you something.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Audi choose to detune the 2.0T engine for better refinement. As someone have already mentioned, Audi have version of the 2.0T engine that is more powerful than the N20. I have driven both the Audi A4 and the F30, although the F30 is a tad bit quicker, the A4's powertrain is definitely more refined. To say the N20 is far better than the 2.0T is just not true, both engines have been on the Ward's 10 best engine list.
Your opinion, not fact. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing the two.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
"Same sausage, different lengths" didn't originate in the last couple of years. This has been BMW's SOP for decades. The E65/66 & E60 were aberrations.



Find out for yourself. Drive it.



No, it won't be and no it isn't. As good as Hyundais may have gotten in recent years they do not compete with BMW, or Audi or Mercedes.
Don't have to. I owned one for over 2 years.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 11:13 am

Here is a direct comparison:


Both cars have the same transmission. Despite the A4 being heavier and down in hp (well at least on paper) it posts nearly identical acceleration times while achieving nearly identical fuel economy. On the side note it was also a better performer in braking, steering and most importantly slalom speed while riding on a much older chassis. I don't see how the N20 is any better than the TSFI. The proof is in the pudding.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ison-tests.pdf
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Yes, they both made the list, however for 2011 the N20 was added to the list and the Audi/VW 2.0T was dropped from the list if I remember correctly. That should tell you something.
On that same note, the Audi 2.0T have been on the Wards top 10 for a number of years, lets just see if the N20 can stay on the list for as long.
sunny5280 commented:
October 11, 2012, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I did not feel that the E90 provided enough additional feedback that it would warrant a claim that it is BETTER than the F30, only that it is different, and certainly might appeal to different drivers.
And that right there is at the heart of most every discussion about cars. There's typically no right or wrong...just different.
tturedraider commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Here is a direct comparison:


Both cars have the same transmission. Despite the A4 being heavier and down in hp (well at least on paper) it posts nearly identical acceleration times while achieving nearly identical fuel economy. On the side note it was also a better performer in braking, steering and most importantly slalom speed while riding on a much older chassis. I don't see how the N20 is any better than the TSFI. The proof is in the pudding.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ison-tests.pdf
What tires are on each vehicle? The proof is in the tires. And BMW has been STUPIDLY supplying cars for these tests with the lowest performing tires they have ever put on a production vehicle. Apparently they think the car rags are going to be placing most of their scoring weight on Efficient Dynamics.
sr5959 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't know what happened to Lexus but they definitely lost their way. My 92 SC300 coupe was one of the best cars I ever had. It was a really great GT car, very refined, excellent ergonomics, a great balance between comfort and performance and it felt like it was carved out of a solid block of steel. If they had continued to devlop that model I would have seriously considered another. As it turned out they had replaced it with the SC430 retractable hardtop convertible, which I had no interest in at all. We wound up getting the E93 as the New York car and a Jaguar XKR as the Florida car.

It will be interesting to see what Lexus comes up with over the next few years but I suspect there may be some interesting new Lexus models in the near future.

CA
After 6-7 years with a 2005 Lexus Rx330 I also really appreciate Lexus vehicles. I would recommend that car to anyone. Great blend of luxury/technology/reliability and not bad on fuel economy for an SUV either.
sr5959 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I took an F30 test drive and I swear it took all of 30 seconds pulling out of the BMW driveway into 60 MPH traffic flow to realize that this was the lightest, tightest, most effortless engine/transmission combo I'd ever experienced. And that was before I appreciated how comfortable the ride was and how rocket-like Sport mode was. And then I stopped smiling just long enough to notice the interior design and the head-up display and the iDrive enhancements and that was that. Took all of 5 minutes.

BJ
I was just about to order a Merc C250 when I got a call from my BMW dealer to say F30's had just arrived (this was in Feb). I had the exact same experience and ordered on the spot after the test drive!
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:23 pm

It's not really surprising seeing the N20 underrated. BMW has a track record for that.
windsor027 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
After 6-7 years with a 2005 Lexus Rx330 I also really appreciate Lexus vehicles. I would recommend that car to anyone. Great blend of luxury/technology/reliability and not bad on fuel economy for an SUV either.
yea but I find it butt ugly. The only Japanese SUV I like the looks of is the Acura MDX. And from what I hear from friends that have one its one heck of a reliable, solid SUV. I was seriously considering it before I gave the X5 another shot (and only because it was a diesel) after the debacle with the 4.8i X5 I had.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
The real question shall be " How are BMW & Audi 4 banger better than Hyundai's ?"

Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
Inside Line has now dyno'd the Hyundai 2.0T and N20 on Dynojets so it's a fair comparison. It showed the N20 made a hp or two and tq more and at a more usable RPM. It's on Youtube.
sr5959 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
yea but I find it butt ugly. The only Japanese SUV I like the looks of is the Acura MDX. And from what I hear from friends that have one its one heck of a reliable, solid SUV. I was seriously considering it before I gave the X5 another shot (and only because it was a diesel) after the debacle with the 4.8i X5 I had.
Really? You find the 2005 RX ugly? I agree a lot of Lexus models are not that good-looking but this one I've always though is a great design. Of course styling is a matter of personal taste, I really like the F30 but a lot of people don't.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
I was just about to order a Merc C250 when I got a call from my BMW dealer to say F30's had just arrived (this was in Feb). I had the exact same experience and ordered on the spot after the test drive!
It was easy, right?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.

Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It was easy, right?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.

Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.

BJ
BMW drivers have moved away from that Stigma of being boy racers. Audi's, now their is a car you have to watch.
sr5959 commented:
October 11, 2012, 12:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It was easy, right?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is not a single E90 driver alive that wouldn't love the F30. BMW took the E90, made it lighter, made it more powerful, made it smoother to drive, enhanced the standard features, loaded it with tech goody options, kept the price the same.

Styling is subjective, but if you lived with the Pokemon E90, can't see how you wouldn't like the Angry Birds F30. Driving it on a track or like a maniac was never its intended purpose, driving it on local streets and highways responsibly is.

BJ
Actually BJ I was never an E90 owner, but i was comparing the F30 to A4 and C-Class, and yes actually a used E90 I had test-driven. However I can totally understand some E90 owners not liking the way the F30 drives it is a very different feel...
windsor027 commented:
October 11, 2012, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5959 View Post
Actually BJ I was never an E90 owner, but i was comparing the F30 to A4 and C-Class, and yes actually a used E90 I had test-driven. However I can totally understand some E90 owners not liking the way the F30 drives it is a very different feel...
I don't know about that. if you are saying the F30 feels bigger it does. But again with adaptive suspension and sport or sport+ setting, I find the steering similar and the handling better (more neutral and forgiving) while the ride is simply way better.
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
Not really. Google "N20 underrated"
Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It's not really surprising seeing the N20 underrated. BMW has a track record for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Inside Line has now dyno'd the Hyundai 2.0T and N20 on Dynojets so it's a fair comparison. It showed the N20 made a hp or two and tq more and at a more usable RPM. It's on Youtube.
Is this the Edmond/Insideline "underrated N20 dyno" that you all are talking about?

N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;

Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.

Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Is this the Edmond/Insideline "underrated N20 dyno" that you all are talking about?

N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;

Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.

Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
Impressive!
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:00 pm

Here is a link to the A4 TFSI Dyno:

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...sivl_long.html

212 HP 280 TRQ! Not sure if its Quattro or not, but if it is then that is even more impressive! I still don't see how anyone can claim that the N20 is superior to the A4.
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Is this the Edmond/Insideline "underrated N20 dyno" that you all are talking about?

N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;

Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.

Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?
Yet the 328i is faster to 60 MPH and 1/4 miles than the Hyundai.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
What tires are on each vehicle? The proof is in the tires. And BMW has been STUPIDLY supplying cars for these tests with the lowest performing tires they have every put on a production vehicle. Apparently they think the car rags are going to be placing most of their scoring weight on Efficient Dynamics.
I can make the argument about the price difference then, the F30 costs 7,000 USD more!
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Here is a link to the A4 TFSI Dyno:

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...sivl_long.html

212 HP 280 TRQ! Not sure if its Quattro or not, but if it is then that is even more impressive! I still don't see how anyone can claim that the N20 is superior to the A4.


Bull ****. Apr tunes audi's i dont trust their numbers at all. I found a bunch of dynos of the 2,0t

Here is the 2.0t

I even found an APR dyno,

stock numbers on dyno are 200/225

N20>A4

Good effort but try harder.
shabadoo25 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:16 pm

They are telling me my car is done and it only took a recoding and I can pick it up today. Frankly, I'm skeptical, but this is preferable to being in this loaner for a week. Some observations after driving the car to work:

1. I can't believe how much I miss comfort access. My wife's SUV is older and requires a key, and I find that less obnoxious than having to shove a fob into the dash for some reason.
2. The actual driving experience isn't too bad save for 2 things: hitting the gas and feeling like nothing happens for 2 seconds and how rough it handles bad road surfaces. Ugh.
3. There is a simple grace to the spartan, basic interior. However, I hate the cupholders and the window controls angled away from the driver.
4. The interior feels like a VW bug compared to the bigger F30.

Also, if the car is recoded, will I have to redo all of my electronic settings? Presets? Music Hard Drive?
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
They are telling me my car is done and it only took a recoding and I can pick it up today. Frankly, I'm skeptical, but this is preferable to being in this loaner for a week. Some observations after driving the car to work:

1. I can't believe how much I miss comfort access. My wife's SUV is older and requires a key, and I find that less obnoxious than having to shove a fob into the dash for some reason.
2. The actual driving experience isn't too bad save for 2 things: hitting the gas and feeling like nothing happens for 2 seconds and how rough it handles bad road surfaces. Ugh.
3. There is a simple grace to the spartan, basic interior. However, I hate the cupholders and the window controls angled away from the driver.
4. The interior feels like a VW bug compared to the bigger F30.

Also, if the car is recoded, will I have to redo all of my electronic settings? Presets? Music Hard Drive?
Are you in an E90? if so, try to get the hell out of that thing asap
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post


Bull ****. Apr tunes audi's i dont trust their numbers at all. I found a bunch of dynos of the 2,0t

Here is the 2.0t

I even found an APR dyno,

stock numbers on dyno are 200/225

N20>A4

Good effort but try harder.
You do realize you don't make yourself look really good when you post stuff that you have NO CLUE about. You posted a dyno of the old FSI engine. Try again please!
elistan commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:22 pm

I consider myself a driving enthusiast, and I have no prior history with Audi, BMW nor Hyundai/Kia. So when looking for a sedan, my impressions were:
BMW E90 - slow, sluggish, and lethargic. A very big letdown for "The Ultimate Driving Machine."
Audi A4 Quatro - engine had great low-end punch, loved the ZF 8spd, but lacked acceleration at highway speeds, and had a non-sporty feel to steering and chassis.
Kia Optima SX Turbo - felt like it had much less power than 274 hp, closer to 200 would have said, and no sport feel at all.
BMW F30 - finally a car with decent pull at all RPMs and speeds, plus a responsive chassis.

Based on my E90 drive, I was ready to write off ever owning a BMW. (My only previous drive in a BMW was a Z3 when they first came out - the 1.9L 4cyl sounded and performed about like a kazoo. Ick.) But learning that the F30 got the same 8spd from ZF as the A4 convinced me to give BMW another try, and I'm glad I did. My Sport Line should be delivered sometime next week.
sr5959 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Also, if the car is recoded, will I have to redo all of my electronic settings? Presets? Music Hard Drive?
I had mine re-coded, lost presets for radio, for the 1-8 buttons on the dash, various other settings as well. It retained all the hard drive music, seat memory positions, NAV destinations, so not too bad.

I think the trick is, save your profile to a USB before you take it in for service.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Is this the Edmond/Insideline "underrated N20 dyno" that you all are talking about?

N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;

Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.

Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7xs...3C0B395C8BDA17
No, I was going by this dyno of the 2.0T...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ddxBDAGhKc

When you humble me I will let you know.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You do realize you don't make yourself look really good when you post stuff that you have NO CLUE about. You posted a dyno of the old FSI engine. Try again please!
Your inability to read is sad.

That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
I consider myself a driving enthusiast, and I have no prior history with Audi, BMW nor Hyundai/Kia. So when looking for a sedan, my impressions were:
BMW E90 - slow, sluggish, and lethargic. A very big letdown for "The Ultimate Driving Machine."
Audi A4 Quatro - engine had great low-end punch, loved the ZF 8spd, but lacked acceleration at highway speeds, and had a non-sporty feel to steering and chassis.
Kia Optima SX Turbo - felt like it had much less power than 274 hp, closer to 200 would have said, and no sport feel at all.
BMW F30 - finally a car with decent pull at all RPMs and speeds, plus a responsive chassis.

Based on my E90 drive, I was ready to write off ever owning a BMW. (My only previous drive in a BMW was a Z3 when they first came out - the 1.9L 4cyl sounded and performed about like a kazoo. Ick.) But learning that the F30 got the same 8spd from ZF as the A4 convinced me to give BMW another try, and I'm glad I did. My Sport Line should be delivered sometime next week.
yea, the N52 is weak as hell! Good thing you waited. Audi engine is crap at high speeds, and the car is to heavy with a front weight bias.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
yea, the N52 is weak as hell! Good thing you waited. Audi engine is crap at high speeds, and the car is to heavy with a front weight bias.
Except that the F30 got owned by the A4 in nearly in every performance category. Of course you are going to call the APR numbers BS, however they match the acceleration times posted by the C & D test. I know it is hard for you to understand because judging by your previous post it is clear that you have very limited knowledge when it comes to automobiles. Enjoy your car for what it is but don't try to preach something you are clueless about.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Except that the F30 got owned by the A4 in nearly in every performance category. Of course you are going to call the APR numbers BS, however they match the acceleration times posted by the C & D test. I know it is hard for you to understand because judging by your previous post it is clear that you have very limited knowledge when it comes to automobiles. Enjoy your car for what it is but don't try to preach something you are clueless about.
The car with all season tires on it?

I thought you could do better, but apparently not. The BMW had nearly identical numbers and that was with ALL SEASON TIRES

Which car lost the comparison? Hint:It wasn't the BMW
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
The car with all season tires on it?

I thought you could do better, but apparently not. The BMW had nearly identical numbers and that was with ALL SEASON TIRES

Which car lost the comparison? Hint:It wasn't the BMW
An excuse is like a you know what, everybody has one
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 3:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
An excuse is like a you know what, everybody has one


You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?

Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
captainaudio commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:01 pm

I think a comparison of the way cars come equipped is a legitmate comparison since most buyers are going to keep the car stock.

CA
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post


You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?

Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
There is all kind of varibles when you do a comparo, you just have to learn to accept the results. Stop drinking the BMW Kool Aid kid, you had enough.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
There is all kind of varibles when you do a comparo, you just have to learn to accept the results. Stop drinking the BMW Kool Aid kid, you had enough.
Who won that comparo?
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Who won that comparo?
The performance numbers are close, but it should have never been that close to begin with considering that we are comparing a 6 year old design with a brand new one.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The performance numbers are close, but it should have never been that close to begin with considering that we are comparing a 6 year old design with a brand new one.
Thanks for not answering the question
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You do realize you don't make yourself look really good when you post stuff that you have NO CLUE about. You posted a dyno of the old FSI engine. Try again please!
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Your inability to read is sad.

That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
I'm convinced that you're debating a 17 year old driving a 2006 328i bought with Bar Mitzvah money and a summer camp job as a CIT.

Be careful, might be cited for child abuse.

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm convinced that you're debating a 17 year old driving a 2006 328i bought with Bar Mitzvah money and a summer camp job as a CIT.

Be careful, might be cited for child abuse.

BJ
Sure feels like it. I know reading comprehension isn't the easiest thing in the world, but the conversation has been pretty elementary.
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Thanks for not answering the question
Keep in mind that its the F30 owners like you that are making excuses, not the A4 owners. A comparo between the 3 series and the A4 say 10 years ago would have been much more decisive.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Keep in mind that its the F30 owners like you that are making excuses, not the A4 owners. A comparo between the 3 series and the A4 say 10 years ago would have been much more decisive.
A4 owners aren't saying **** because they lost lol. And they probably have better things to do then spend time in a different cars forum. F30>B8 or 8.5. It's e90 owners like yourself that need to do whatever they can to try and make the F30 look bad(and yourselves feel better about your aging automobiles).

Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post


You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?

Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
A 50K "SPORT" line BMW should outperform a 6 year old A4 in braking, handling and steering but it doesn't. Remember those things? That what BMW WAS famous for.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
A 50K "SPORT" line BMW should outperform a 6 year old A4 in braking, handling and steering but it doesn't. Remember those things? That what BMW WAS famous for.
To bad we wont see you in an F30














not.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
A4 owners aren't saying **** because they lost lol. And they probably have better things to do then spend time in a different cars forum. F30>B8 or 8.5. It's e90 owners like yourself that need to do whatever they can to try and make the F30 look bad(and yourselves feel better about your aging automobiles).

Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them


We win because the F30 is a better car.

We win because we love our cars enough to not need to bash anyone else's to make ourselves feel better.

When I get bitter and angry, I don't go into discussion forums that I don't belong in and pick fights with a bunch of 47 year old dad's, but that's just me.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
A 50K "SPORT" line BMW should outperform a 6 year old A4 in braking, handling and steering but it doesn't. Remember those things? That what BMW WAS famous for.
I'm sorry, but what kind of enthusiast drives a 328i?

You know what BMW was famous for because you read something in a magazine, now you drive around in a bloated and underpowered 328i and post dyno graphs to make an argument that your used car is better than the brand new one? Really?

Don't you have Pop Warner practice to get ready for? Mom's driving and you don't want to make her late.

BJ
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
The real question shall be " How are BMW & Audi 4 banger better than Hyundai's ?"

Genesis' 2.0 T is rated @ 274 hp. Pretty surreal & humbling huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
No, I was going by this dyno of the 2.0T...

When you humble me I will let you know.
James, I simply am responding to those who doubted Genesis' 2.0T & claimed N20 is underrated. I'm actually humble to know 2011 Sonata 2.0T is only trailing N20 by 18 lb-ft & 6 hp. Surreal !

LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
James, I simply am responding to those who doubted Genesis' 2.0T & claimed N20 is underrated. I'm actually humble to know 2011 Sonata 2.0T is only trailing N20 by 18 lb-ft & 6 hp. Surreal !

Hyundai sure has come a long way
elistan commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:46 pm

Well, since there's a lot of posturing going on here (nice to know this corner of the Internet is exactly like every other corner of the Internet... ) I'll summarize some of the controversial numbers:

Peak dyno hp:
BMW F30 - 240 hp (Inside Line)
Cadillac ATS - 239 hp (Inside Line)
Hyundai Sonata 2.0 T - 234 hp (Inside Line)
Audi A4 - hard to find a dyno of a stock car on comparable equipment. My general impression is 200 to 210 hp or so?

Recent performance data from C&D:
0-60:
A4 - 5.6 sec
F30 - 5.6 sec

1/4:
A4 - 14.4 @ 95
F30 - 14.2 @ 98

Rolling start:
A4 - 7.2 sec
F30 - 6.5 sec

My thoughts on contributing factors to the A4's acceleration: AWD and 245 width summer tires. Such extra traction helps a lot when launching from a standstil, but as evidenced by the rolling start times doesn't help with outright acceleration once moving. Since that's what I notice most, not having ever launched an A4 or F30 for an acceleration test, the F30 certainly felt much quicker than the A4.

610ft slalom:
A4 - 44.3 mph
F30 - 42.7 mph

Certainly a win for the Audi. But it's a head-scratcher for me, since the A4 didn't feel an more sporty - but I haven't autocrossed either car. I again suspect the tires were the main factor, though - the BMW had 225 width all-season M+S. The other two cars with M+S tires had similar slalom numbers (42.8 and 42.9) and the one other summer tire car had a similar speed to the A4 (44.2.)

IIRC, the F30 I test-drove had summer tires. The one I ordered certainly does.

So in terms of feel and driving excitement - yeah, in my book the F30, with it's N20, is superior.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
James, I simply am responding to those who doubted Genesis' 2.0T & claimed N20 is underrated. I'm actually humble to know 2011 Sonata 2.0T is only trailing N20 by 18 lb-ft & 6 hp. Surreal !

I thought people would have moved on from Hyundai being some kind of 3rd world car manufacturer at this point.

The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.

The V-8 makes 429hp.

They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.

Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.

I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The performance numbers are close, but it should have never been that close to begin with considering that we are comparing a 6 year old design with a brand new one.
I feel you have a tendency to pick and choose your facts. Yes the A4 is a 6 year old design but the AT is brand new and transforms the performance of the car. I believe the 0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.6 seconds with the same engine. That's a major upgrade. The again the BMW was faster in the 1/4 mile at a higher trap speed and faster by 1.3 seconds to 100 mph. This shows how well the A4 hooks up due to the Quattro system.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I thought people would have moved on from Hyundai being some kind of 3rd world car manufacturer at this point.

The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.

The V-8 makes 429hp.

They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.

Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.

I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
There's a tendency in this thread to use HP alone when comparing engines. The Hyundai 2.0T engine is nicely powerful but as Car and Driver says, has the aural pleasure of a hair dryer. While the N20 has issues at idle, reviews say it sounds great revving to the redline and pulls strongly all the way. It's a more refined engine than all the competitors at this point in time.

Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I feel you have a tendency to pick and choose your facts. Yes the A4 is a 6 year old design but the AT is brand new and transforms the performance of the car. I believe the 0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.6 seconds with the same engine. That's a major upgrade. The again the BMW was faster in the 1/4 mile at a higher trap speed and faster by 1.3 seconds to 100 mph. This shows how well the A4 hooks up due to the Quattro system.
Audi is around 200 lbs heavier.
voip-ninja commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Audi is around 200 lbs heavier.
I'm sure he understands that. The point is that, at least in 0-60 times, the AWD would typically overcome that small of a weight difference and would provide better launch traction than a RWD car.

The Audi is a great car... I'm not sure why you are trying to convince everyone it's better than the F30.

Clearly you are upset that BMW is not doing "better"... but the 3-series is still winning comparos... and the reason is that comparos aren't won or lost by 0-60 or slalom times but by over-all performance and driving pleasure.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Audi is around 200 lbs heavier.
So? That means the Audi needs more HP. It's apples to apples in this test as each car is the sportiest version available. Audi of course doesn't offer the option of a RWD version and FWD version has a CVT and is not in the same class as a RWD 328i.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
So? That means the Audi needs more HP. It's apples to apples in this test as each car is the sportiest version available. Audi of course doesn't offer the option of a RWD version and FWD version has a CVT and is not in the same class as a RWD 328i.
I understand. I was just trying to point out that the weight will also affect performance just like awd.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Audi is around 200 lbs heavier.
And you can feel it when driving, not in a good way. Front weight bias and doesn't feel as nimble as the BMW when driving.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I'm sure he understands that. The point is that, at least in 0-60 times, the AWD would typically overcome that small of a weight difference and would provide better launch traction than a RWD car.

The Audi is a great car... I'm not sure why you are trying to convince everyone it's better than the F30.

Clearly you are upset that BMW is not doing "better"... but the 3-series is still winning comparos... and the reason is that comparos aren't won or lost by 0-60 or slalom times but by over-all performance and driving pleasure.
And hence is why C/D stated the E90 would likely have won a comparison against the F30.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
And you can feel it when driving, not in a good way. Front weight bias and doesn't feel as nimble as the BMW when driving.
Yes you do.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's a tendency in this thread to use HP alone when comparing engines. The Hyundai 2.0T engine is nicely powerful but as Car and Driver says, has the aural pleasure of a hair dryer. While the N20 has issues at idle, reviews say it sounds great revving to the redline and pulls strongly all the way. It's a more refined engine than all the competitors at this point in time.

Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
I drove a '11 Genesis 4.6L and liked it a lot 2 years ago. Engine sounded very nice. Car had a $44k sticker and was nabbed by me as a company car(instead of a Town Car) for $38k.

If the R-Spec was a proper tuned car in the way or AMG or M and under $50k, I would be all for it.
voip-ninja commented:
October 11, 2012, 5:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
And hence is why C/D stated the E90 would likely have won a comparison against the F30.
Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. I would LOVE it if C&D put their money where their mouth is and did exactly that. I have a feeling that the outcome would not be as you think.

Trash talking is good for selling magazines.
windsor027 commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:12 pm

As some noted in this tread the major weakness for both the 328i and the 335i IMO are the tires. BMW choose to go with the smaller width for fuel efficiency. I love for one of these car magazines to do a comparison between the S4, 335i and ATS V6 but the 335i having 235s in the front and 245s in the rear summer tires.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
As some noted in this tread the major weakness for both the 328i and the 335i IMO are the tires. BMW choose to go with the smaller width for fuel efficiency. I love for one of these car magazines to do a comparison between the S4, 335i and ATS V6 but the 335i having 235s in the front and 245s in the rear summer tires.
Or just use an Msport F30
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
As some noted in this tread the major weakness for both the 328i and the 335i IMO are the tires. BMW choose to go with the smaller width for fuel efficiency. I love for one of these car magazines to do a comparison between the S4, 335i and ATS V6 but the 335i having 235s in the front and 245s in the rear summer tires.
All the mag tests so far are'12 and usually Sports.

I am anxious to see an MSport which hàs 255 summer tires out back and the better brake pads. It should give better numbers and present itself better to the more sporting ATS.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
All the mag tests so far are'12 and usually Sports.

I am anxious to see an MSport which hàs 255 summer tires out back and the better brake pads. It should give better numbers and present itself better to the more sporting ATS.
Yep. I wonder how the mag tests work. Does the car mag tell BMW what cars it plans on comparing?
windsor027 commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:36 pm

IMO it was stupid by BMW, since it decided to go with 3 different packages not to have the sport package with the highest performance tire/wheel combo possible. For the luxury I would go with the quietest and most forgiving RTF available, for the modern I would have gone for the most fuel efficient tire. Its like you are a world class runner and you are running against other world class runners who have spikes running shoes and you have plain old snickers.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
As some noted in this tread the major weakness for both the 328i and the 335i IMO are the tires. BMW choose to go with the smaller width for fuel efficiency. I love for one of these car magazines to do a comparison between the S4, 335i and ATS V6 but the 335i having 235s in the front and 245s in the rear summer tires.
It's not the width they object to, it's the hard compound low rolling resistance tires BMW now uses.
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Yep. I wonder how the mag tests work. Does the car mag tell BMW what cars it plans on comparing?
They try to get cars that are as sporty as possible and in a comparison test as similar in base price and features as possible. For example they would never compare a base A4 to a 335.
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 6:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
A4 owners aren't saying **** because they lost lol. And they probably have better things to do then spend time in a different cars forum. F30>B8 or 8.5. It's e90 owners like yourself that need to do whatever they can to try and make the F30 look bad(and yourselves feel better about your aging automobiles).

Anyways, a win is a win, and the F30 has quite a few of them
A very fitting response from someone with limited knowledge of any car brand beside BMW

FYI, I do not own a E90, my wife does, I actually tried to talk her into buying the F30, but she like the way the E90 drove better. All I am trying to tell you is that the A4 is a much better car than you think. Stick your head into the rabbit hole and you will see the light.
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 7:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I feel you have a tendency to pick and choose your facts. Yes the A4 is a 6 year old design but the AT is brand new and transforms the performance of the car. I believe the 0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.6 seconds with the same engine. That's a major upgrade. The again the BMW was faster in the 1/4 mile at a higher trap speed and faster by 1.3 seconds to 100 mph. This shows how well the A4 hooks up due to the Quattro system.
Every model going thru refresh or LCI. the A4 is no exception, a new transmission or a new engine doesnt make it a new design.
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 7:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
A very fitting response from someone with limited knowledge of any car brand beside BMW

FYI, I do not own a E90, my wife does, I actually tried to talk her into buying the F30, but she like the way the E90 drove better.
Then why do you waste so much time in this forum always talking about why you dislike the new 3 series? Is the F10 forum not active enough for you?
The X Men commented:
October 11, 2012, 7:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Then why do you waste so much time in this forum always talking about why you dislike the new 3 series? Is the F10 forum not active enough for you?
If you have actually read my posts, you will realized that I never said I didnt like the F30. All I said was the F30 is soft, the steering is light and its doesnt feel as sporty as the E90. All the things I am looking for in a daily driver. I would have bought one myself but I didnt want two 3 series in the driveway.
ND40oz commented:
October 11, 2012, 8:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Is this the Edmond/Insideline "underrated N20 dyno" that you all are talking about?

N20 did 240 @ 5,250rpm & 257 lb-ft @ 4,450 rpm ( video clip 1:20 mark) ;

Hyundai 2.0 T rated 279 hp/ 262 lb-ft.

Pretty surreal & Humbling huh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAo-...3C0B395C8BDA17
Why did you post a video of the Hyundai Coupe 3.8 and then claim it was the 2.0T?
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 8:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
Why did you post a video of the Hyundai Coupe 3.8 and then claim it was the 2.0T?
Michael Schott commented:
October 11, 2012, 8:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Every model going thru refresh or LCI. the A4 is no exception, a new transmission or a new engine doesnt make it a new design.
You said the A4 was a 6 year old design vs the brand new F30. I responded that the new transmission was a significant change. I did not say anything remotely like it's a new design.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
Why did you post a video of the Hyundai Coupe 3.8 and then claim it was the 2.0T?
**** I just saw it said 2010.

2010 had a lower output 306hp v6 and the 210hp 2.0t.

So super irrelevant to this thread.

But I am the one who should have been humbled. Lol
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
Why did you post a video of the Hyundai Coupe 3.8 and then claim it was the 2.0T?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
**** I just saw it said 2010.

2010 had a lower output 306hp v6 and the 210hp 2.0t.

So super irrelevant to this thread.

But I am the one who should have been humbled. Lol
Hey all, I need to be humbled. Please accept my apology as I saw both Genesis dynos from Insideline with one says 364 hp & 342 ft-lb ( video below) & I assume 276 hp is the 2.0T. I goofed. I owe you all beer when you are down in TX .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
justinnum1 commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Hey all, I need to be humbled. Please accept my apology as I saw both Genesis dynos from Insideline with one says 364 hp & 342 ft-lb ( video below) & I assume 276 hp is the 2.0T. I goofed. I owe you all beer when you are down in TX .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
How's the weather in texas?
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 9:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
How's the weather in texas?
It's great from now till March. When are you picking up M 335i?
Kilgore Trout commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's a tendency in this thread to use HP alone when comparing engines. The Hyundai 2.0T engine is nicely powerful but as Car and Driver says, has the aural pleasure of a hair dryer. While the N20 has issues at idle, reviews say it sounds great revving to the redline and pulls strongly all the way. It's a more refined engine than all the competitors at this point in time.

Lots of kudo's to Hyundai who has come a long way. They are doing well competing in teh Accord, Camry class of cars but are not yet building a car for enthusiasts except possibly the Genesis Coupe.
Just shows how much car tech has advanced. I think the new BMW turbo 4 is just an amazing engine. Decent MPG, fantastic power delivery across the full range, revs quick and hard. Its such a nice engine, and so much fun to drive, that I would think it would be without peer, but other companies can now play with BMW. Its a good time to be a car guy.
ND40oz commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Hey all, I need to be humbled. Please accept my apology as I saw both Genesis dynos from Insideline with one says 364 hp & 342 ft-lb ( video below) & I assume 276 hp is the 2.0T. I goofed. I owe you all beer when you are down in TX .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwitu...3C0B395C8BDA17
There's the Genesis and the Genesis Coupe, two completely different vehicles, the Coupe is available with the 2.0T and the 3.8 V6. The 4 door Genesis is available with the 3.8 V6 and the 5.0 V8. The one you just posted is from the 5.0 V8 which is rated from Hyundai at 429 HP.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:09 pm

And both coupe engines are updated for'13. The 2.0t for'13 is probably 240-245whp
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
There's the Genesis and the Genesis Coupe, two completely different vehicles, the Coupe is available with the 2.0T and the 3.8 V6. The 4 door Genesis is available with the 3.8 V6 and the 5.0 V8. The one you just posted is from the 5.0 V8 which is rated from Hyundai at 429 HP.
I know. I goofed earlier today. At least we all know N20 is not as underrated as others had claimed. Drinks on me.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
I know. I goofed earlier today. At least we all know N20 is not as underrated as others had claimed. Drinks on me.
Thats what you get from this?

230-250whp is pretty underrated when claimed 240 crank.
bayoucity commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Thats what you get from this?

230-250whp is pretty underrated when claimed 240 crank.
I will say N20 is pretty close to BMW's own claim - 240 hp.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 11, 2012, 10:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
I will says N20 is pretty close to BMW's own claim - 240 hp.
Maybe you do not have experience with dynos.

I do.

240 at the crank would yield 200-210whp. The n20 with 240-250whp indicates it is underrated by 10-15% which is quite substantial. I have not seen modern examples underrated by much more with other engines.
JohnnyO commented:
October 11, 2012, 11:52 pm

Thanks, Voip-Ninja for your thoughtful note. May all your MOS score be 4 or better.

I'm currently driving a 2008 335ix with 70,000 miles. In the spring, I plan to pass that car to my wife, and move to an F30 328i with XDrive. Previous to the e90, I had two A4s (1997, and 2002, which my wife is currently driving), so reading your notes has been very useful.

My one test drive of the F30 confirms that it really feels pretty darn good. Not quite the rumble of the 335, but I can get past that.

John
voip-ninja commented:
October 12, 2012, 12:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyO View Post
Thanks, Voip-Ninja for your thoughtful note. May all your MOS score be 4 or better.

I'm currently driving a 2008 335ix with 70,000 miles. In the spring, I plan to pass that car to my wife, and move to an F30 328i with XDrive. Previous to the e90, I had two A4s (1997, and 2002, which my wife is currently driving), so reading your notes has been very useful.

My one test drive of the F30 confirms that it really feels pretty darn good. Not quite the rumble of the 335, but I can get past that.

John
Good luck. There was a little bit of adjustment coming from my A4, but honestly, now, there's no way I would go back. The F30 is just a pleasure to drive. Get the adaptive suspension to go with your x-drive!
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 12:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Power is even across the curve while the 2.0T falls flat on it's face in the mid to upper range.
No, torque is even across the curve, at about 260lb-ft for both. The difference is that it starts falling off earlier for the Audi at around 4,200rpm, whereas the BMW keeps it up until about 4,800rpm, leading to the nearly exact ratio of:

(4800/4200) * 211Hp = 241Hp (damn close to the 240HP rating)

So the difference is that you can stay in lower gears and rev up the engine to higher rpmsw with the BMW. The rest of the difference is due to the weight of the A4 and AWD. The vast majority of drivers will only experience the later, not the higher rpms.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 12:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Audi choose to detune the 2.0T engine for better refinement.
I don't know about detuning, but it does have counter-rotating balance shaft for smoothness. But I suspect the BMW 2.0T has them too.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 12:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Yes, they both made the list, however for 2011 the N20 was added to the list and the Audi/VW 2.0T was dropped from the list if I remember correctly. That should tell you something.
I think Audi's E888 has been off the list for a couple of years now.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 12:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Your inability to read is sad.

That 2012 A5 has the same engine as the A4. look at the date. Once again, this is not difficult, try and keep up.
The first curve looks like for the new 2.0T. The second is definitely not. Look at the peak torque RPM. It should be around 4,200rpm, and only the first curve shows that.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 1:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post


You expect a car with all season tires to perform as well as a car with summer performance tires?

Wow, some people on this site are clueless.
If you are referring to the car and driver comparison, their pictures shows a four-spoke steering for the A4, which means standard suspension and all-season tires.

PS: I found the tire they listed and it is indeed a summer tire. Strange, as the pictures show a 4-spoke steering.
justinnum1 commented:
October 12, 2012, 1:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
If you are referring to the car and driver comparison, their pictures shows a four-spoke steering for the A4, which means standard suspension and all-season tires.
read the test data. Clearly states its wearing the Summer performance version of the P7's
audi on th eleft, bmw on the right.
Attachment 345301
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 1:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
read the test data. Clearly states its wearing the Summer performance version of the P7's
audi on th eleft, bmw on the right.
Attachment 345301
Yes, yes, I have already found that and corrected my post. But I am surprised it has summer tires since it doesn't seem to have the sport package (standard 4-spoke wheel), unless the picture they show is not that of the actual car tested.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 12, 2012, 1:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
No, torque is even across the curve, at about 260lb-ft for both. The difference is that it starts falling off earlier for the Audi at around 4,200rpm, whereas the BMW keeps it up until about 4,800rpm, leading to the nearly exact ratio of:

(4800/4200) * 211Hp = 241Hp (damn close to the 240HP rating)
Based on these characteristics, the 328i should be incredibly fun and awesome with a manual transmission! It's a more rev happy engine than the A4's and that's what gives it an edge.

I don't know if the difference is due to higher boost, a bigger turbo, or more advanced valve control, or a combination of various factors. But it is interesting how they are nearly identical until about 4,200rpm, but beyond that the 328i surges ahead.
The X Men commented:
October 12, 2012, 8:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think Audi's E888 has been off the list for a couple of years now.
It was on Ward's top 10 from 2004 to 2009, 6 years on the top 10 is pretty good.
justinnum1 commented:
October 12, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Yes, yes, I have already found that and corrected my post. But I am surprised it has summer tires since it doesn't seem to have the sport package (standard 4-spoke wheel), unless the picture they show is not that of the actual car tested.
Yea. That's not unheard of where they use stock photos and the pictures are not of cars they test. Not ire if thy applies here tho. Maybe Audi was just smart enough to throw summer tires on so it could hang with the crowd.
sean10mm commented:
October 12, 2012, 11:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
I will say N20 is pretty close to BMW's own claim - 240 hp.
You really need to stop. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.

A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.

So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
voip-ninja commented:
October 12, 2012, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
You really need to stop. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.

A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.

So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
Bingo. Actual horsepower numbers that BMW should be publishing for 328i are about 275 horsepower... however under-reporting power levels is a longstanding tradition for German automakers.
NewToCarBuying commented:
October 12, 2012, 2:33 pm

I always wondered which would be a better pick

E90 335 With all upgrades
or
F30 328 with all upgrades
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
You really need to stop. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Manufacturer HP claims are brake horsepower (bhp), which is the measure of an engine's horsepower before the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc.

A Dynamometer measures HP AT THE WHEELS, after all those losses.

So if your whp on a dyno is in the ballpark of the manufacturer's claimed bhp, the engine is being underrated by on the order of 15%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Bingo. Actual horsepower numbers that BMW should be publishing for 328i are about 275 horsepower... however under-reporting power levels is a longstanding tradition for German automakers.
I already tried explaining that.

Maybe we have another apology heading our way.
bayoucity commented:
October 12, 2012, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I already tried explaining that.

Maybe we have another apology heading our way.
James, I really thought BMW published whp which is 240. WIll it make you feel better if I apologize?
voip-ninja commented:
October 12, 2012, 3:09 pm

No manufacturer publishes wheel horsepower. To get a little bit back on track. On paper, the difference between the N20 engine and the outgoing N52 is not that much to fuss about. However in real driving it is extremely palpable, and probably even more so as I'm at 6000 feet and NA engines are knee-capped at that altitude, turbo engines fare much better, which explains their popularity in this market.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
James, I really thought BMW published whp which is 240. WIll it make you feel better if I apologize?
It's Jameson...like the whiskey.

I am only teasing you because you tried to one-up me with info when in fact you had it wrong.

It's all in good fun.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
No manufacturer publishes wheel horsepower. To get a little bit back on track. On paper, the difference between the N20 engine and the outgoing N52 is not that much to fuss about. However in real driving it is extremely palpable, and probably even more so as I'm at 6000 feet and NA engines are knee-capped at that altitude, turbo engines fare much better, which explains their popularity in this market.
Its the tq between the two which is worth fussing about.

At the wheels, it's close to a 20% difference. You have a 30% decrease in capacity, at least a 10% improvement in consumption and the 20% increase in torque. When all those factors add up, but you lose the good sound(again, I am one of few with an exhaust and boy does that help) it's a good equation.

I am not trying to be an N20 fanboy, but those are facts.
NoI4plz commented:
October 12, 2012, 4:43 pm

I get the numbers, but please make a better exhaust a standard feature! Ask eisenmann Exhaust to make the oem exhaust!
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I get the numbers, but please make a better exhaust a standard feature! Ask eisenmann Exhaust to make the oem exhaust!
Eisenmann is crazy $$$$. They want about $2k for just the muffler, no mid pipe-that's extra. It must be made from unicorn tears and titanium.

Very happy with my Rogue Engineering system even in it's prototype stage. Very nice deep sound, no drone. Not over the top.
NoI4plz commented:
October 12, 2012, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Eisenmann is crazy $$$$. They want about $2k for just the muffler, no mid pipe-that's extra. It must be made from unicorn tears and titanium.

Very happy with my Rogue Engineering system even in it's prototype stage. Very nice deep sound, no drone. Not over the top.
I thought eisenmann really got the rumble in their exhausts down for the other vehicles, historically speaking. Then I did a search on YouTube just a moment ago on their n20 fittment (clip I believe).


it sounds ricer rocket or fartcan.

I'm guessing I'm gonna have to wait till someone comes up with something. As you said rogue enginnering no vids up yet so well have to see.

The N20....classic example of havin ones cake but can't eat it. Great numbers, terrible exhaust note (even with aftermarket fittments) at least for now?
voip-ninja commented:
October 12, 2012, 5:00 pm

Here's a thought. Drive the car and listen to the radio and stop obsessing over what the car muffler sounds like. Honestly, who gives a crap? In 15 years when you are driving an electric car are you going to rig up speakers, an amplifier, and synthetic exhaust sounds so that the other drivers know you mean business?

My Yamaha R1 sounded like a lawn mower.. but it did 0-60 in like 3.9 seconds. Who gives a crap about what it sounds like.

True story. I was driving over to the dealer a few days ago to drop my car off. A kid in a civic pulled up on me with his blown engine and giant fart can. Boy that fart can was impressive. I wonder if he was let-down when my car completely destroyed his 15 year old piece of crap?

Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I thought eisenmann really got the rumble in their exhausts down for the other vehicles, historically speaking. Then I did a search on YouTube just a moment ago on their n20 fittment (clip I believe).


it sounds ricer rocket or fartcan.

I'm guessing I'm gonna have to wait till someone comes up with something. As you said rogue enginnering no vids up yet so well have to see.

The N20....classic example of havin ones cake but can't eat it. Great numbers, terrible exhaust note (even with aftermarket fittments) at least for now?
Rogue came up with the prototype Wednesday. I picked the car up on Thursday. We are dyno'ing on Tuesday.

So this is really early inside info.

I don't want to put up sound clips until I get the first production unit on the car.

Then I can spill the beans about some of the unique/cool features.

Price will be very reasonable.

It sounds nothing like a fart can or Honda Civic.
NoI4plz commented:
October 12, 2012, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Rogue came up with the prototype Wednesday. I picked the car up on Thursday. We are dyno'ing on Tuesday.

So this is really early inside info.

I don't want to put up sound clips until I get the first production unit on the car.

Then I can spill the beans about some of the unique/cool features.

Price will be very reasonable.

It sounds nothing like a fart can or Honda Civic.
Sounds promising update us when you can!
NoI4plz commented:
October 12, 2012, 5:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Here's a thought. Drive the car and listen to the radio and stop obsessing over what the car muffler sounds like. Honestly, who gives a crap? In 15 years when you are driving an electric car are you going to rig up speakers, an amplifier, and synthetic exhaust sounds so that the other drivers know you mean business?
haha that's a great, however I tend to be concerned with issues that affect me in the present, not in 15 years lol!
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 12, 2012, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Its the tq between the two which is worth fussing about.

At the wheels, it's close to a 20% difference. You have a 30% decrease in capacity, at least a 10% improvement in consumption and the 20% increase in torque. When all those factors add up, but you lose the good sound(again, I am one of few with an exhaust and boy does that help) it's a good equation.

I am not trying to be an N20 fanboy, but those are facts.
Not really a groundbreaking difference in acceleration but there is 4 mph difference in trap speed which is a good indication of power.

F30 6 speed Sport

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100

E90 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.9
0-100 16.1
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96

(According to C/D)
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 7:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Not really a groundbreaking difference in acceleration but there is 4 mph difference in trap speed which is a good indication of power.

F30 6 speed Sport

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100

E90 6 speed Sport
0-60 5.9
0-100 16.1
1/4 mile 14.6 @ 96

(According to C/D)
4mph trap speed difference is substantial. About the difference between the N55 and N20. Those show a 30-35whp and similar tq difference between each other.

The 0-100 is showing near a two second difference. Also top gear acceleration will be very telling, as that will show the benefit of torque to pull you through.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 12, 2012, 7:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
4mph trap speed difference is substantial. About the difference between the N55 and N20. Those show a 30-35whp and similar tq difference between each other.

The 0-100 is showing near a two second difference. Also top gear acceleration will be very telling, as that will show the benefit of torque to pull you through.
That is a pretty good difference in trap speed. Also top gear acceleration is affected by gearing. If you look at the A4's numbers they are better than F30 auto vs auto and much better A4 auto vs F30 6 speed (obviously).
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 12, 2012, 7:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
That is a pretty good difference in trap speed. Also top gear acceleration is affected by gearing. If you look at the A4's numbers they are better than F30 auto vs auto and much better A4 auto vs F30 6 speed (obviously).
Yes gearing and torque.
windsor027 commented:
October 13, 2012, 6:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Here's a thought. Drive the car and listen to the radio and stop obsessing over what the car muffler sounds like. Honestly, who gives a crap? In 15 years when you are driving an electric car are you going to rig up speakers, an amplifier, and synthetic exhaust sounds so that the other drivers know you mean business?

My Yamaha R1 sounded like a lawn mower.. but it did 0-60 in like 3.9 seconds. Who gives a crap about what it sounds like.

True story. I was driving over to the dealer a few days ago to drop my car off. A kid in a civic pulled up on me with his blown engine and giant fart can. Boy that fart can was impressive. I wonder if he was let-down when my car completely destroyed his 15 year old piece of crap?

VOIP I have to disagree with you there Yesterday afternoon, great weather here in NVA, I put down the windows and went for drive, that sound from the N55 was better than any song I could have played at the time. It just makes you feel good, alive going thru the gears and hearing that wonderful sound coupled with the smoothness of that gem of an engine.
dtc100 commented:
October 13, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Not really a groundbreaking difference in acceleration...
When people say switching from an F30 328i to E90 328i they immediately feel the E90's lack of power, they are really saying the lack of low end power. As evident from the 0-60 time, the accelerations are not substantially different to feel one is much slower than the other.

But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.

An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.

A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 13, 2012, 9:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
When people say switching from an F30 328i to E90 328i they immediately feel the E90's lack of power, they are really saying the lack of low end power. As evident from the 0-60 time, the accelerations are not substantially different to feel one is much slower than the other.

But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.

An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.

A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
I have heard clips of the BMW MP exhaust. They went too safe, the difference barely audible.

I did not like the sound of the Eisenmann.

My Rogue so far is a very happy medium. Should cost less than the BMW unit which is only a muffler.
The X Men commented:
October 13, 2012, 10:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
Maybe BMW can pipe in the exhaust note thru the audio system like the M5 Imagine that, you can pipe in any exhaust note you want and change it like you change a radio station
Michael Schott commented:
October 13, 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
When people say switching from an F30 328i to E90 328i they immediately feel the E90's lack of power, they are really saying the lack of low end power. As evident from the 0-60 time, the accelerations are not substantially different to feel one is much slower than the other.

But if you drive the N52 the same way you do with F30, it will feel much slower. The N52 needs be driven at redline, most people never do that, so a turbo with low end torque is a better fit for most drivers.

An F30 N20 fitted with a well tuned exhaust should solve the less than desirable sound issue. Unfortunately traditionally the BMW PEs were tuned a little more to the Civic boy racer sound. Some of the aftermarket tuners had it better, but those do, are usually very costly.

A well tuned exhaust can really enhance driving experience, but I don't think BMW wants to do it for the 328i, it will seriously make the 335i less appealing. Or maybe they should, since there are too many 328s on the lots, not enough 335s to go around.
The N52 does not need to be driven at redline. I'm guessing you are saying this for effect but the N52 makes max torque at 2750 rpm which is of course considerably higher than the N20 but at about 4K it takes off nicely and accelerates nicely to just short of the redline.
tturedraider commented:
October 14, 2012, 2:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The N52 does not need to be driven at redline. I'm guessing you are saying this for effect but the N52 makes max torque at 2750 rpm which is of course considerably higher than the N20 but at about 4K it takes off nicely and accelerates nicely to just short of the redline.
+1 - so much lack of knowledge anymore of the history of BMW motors. (not you dct100) People these days think motors have always made 1,000 lb-ft of torque at 500 rpms.
tturedraider commented:
October 14, 2012, 3:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I thought people would have moved on from Hyundai being some kind of 3rd world car manufacturer at this point.

The Gene sedan now has a 333hp DI V-6 which nets about 30mph highway.

The V-8 makes 429hp.

They have direct injected 4's making 201hp from 1.6L and as shown, the RWD Gene has a 274hp 2.0 and the v-6 now makes close to 350hp.

Hyundai should be most threatening due to their inside culture which allows them to move very fast.

I was approached in '05 to come in as designer for the newly opening design center in Ann Arbor. The guy at the time said Hyundai was planning from within to be the #1 car company inside of a decade. At the time it was comedic. Now, 7 years later, it's not so outlandish.
Hyundai is moving quickly now, but I remember well the 1988 Hyundai my old Army friends bought the year before we were stationed in Korea. Less than impressive. 24 years ago now. It's taken them some not insignificant time to get ramped up. btw - I'm a fan of Hyundai (and Kia) and Koreans. I put my dad in a Kia Sedona minivan (he's in his second one now, 2006 & 2011) and my sister in a 2011 Kia Forte 5-door. A former Audi designer penned the Forte 5-door. Ever notice its resemblance to the A3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Yep. I wonder how the mag tests work. Does the car mag tell BMW what cars it plans on comparing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
They try to get cars that are as sporty as possible and in a comparison test as similar in base price and features as possible. For example they would never compare a base A4 to a 335.
Yes, but they test the cars the manufacturers provide and if BMW gives them a 3er Sport line with narrow, low rolling resistance tires and Audi gives them an A4 with wide, sticky summers that's what gets tested.
justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Hyundai is moving quickly now, but I remember well the 1988 Hyundai my old Army friends bought the year before we were stationed in Korea. Less than impressive. 24 years ago now. It's taken them some not insignificant time to get ramped up. btw - I'm a fan of Hyundai (and Kia) and Koreans. I put my dad in a Kia Sedona minivan (he's in his second one now, 2006 & 2011) and my sister in a 2011 Kia Forte 5-door. A former Audi designer penned the Forte 5-door. Ever notice its resemblance to the A3?





Yes, but they test the cars the manufacturers provide and if BMW gives them a 3er Sport line with narrow, low rolling resistance tires and Audi gives them an A4 with wide, sticky summers that's what gets tested.
My question is why didn't bmw give a sportline with the summer tires? Sportline comes with 2 versions of the P7. The p7 all seasons which the bmw had and the p7 summer tires which the audi had.

Something else that was interesting(someone pointed this out earlier in the thread) is the a4 that was tested looked to be a non sport model(4 spoke steering wheel) which would have come with all season tires. Anyways, the bmw won the comparo.
jzcrna commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?

BJ
Wow, not to change the subject, but that's a very nice luxury F30 in the mineral gray. Although Im partial to the sport line, your car looks awesome.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Hyundai is moving quickly now, but I remember well the 1988 Hyundai my old Army friends bought the year before we were stationed in Korea. Less than impressive. 24 years ago now. It's taken them some not insignificant time to get ramped up. btw - I'm a fan of Hyundai (and Kia) and Koreans. I put my dad in a Kia Sedona minivan (he's in his second one now, 2006 & 2011) and my sister in a 2011 Kia Forte 5-door. A former Audi designer penned the Forte 5-door. Ever notice its resemblance to the A3?





Yes, but they test the cars the manufacturers provide and if BMW gives them a 3er Sport line with narrow, low rolling resistance tires and Audi gives them an A4 with wide, sticky summers that's what gets tested.
I am very well aware of Hyundai's past. But we move on. Audi is a long ways from the Audi 5000 debacle.

My f-i-l has driven nothing but Accords for twenty years until his new Optima 2.0t which he loves. In'09 I negotiated my wife's loaded Sonata v6 Limited with a $30k sticker down to $19k. It treated her well for 60k miles.
Bumer commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:49 am

Sounds like new 3-series is step forward from e9x.
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...

Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
Michael Schott commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumer View Post
Sounds like new 3-series is step forward from e9x.
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...

Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
Power memory seats became std for the 2013 model year.
voip-ninja commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumer View Post
Sounds like new 3-series is step forward from e9x.
However, I really miss being able to get just options I want. Now if seems that if I want any option, I have to add premium package, sport package, etc...

Grrrr. All I want is xenon lights and power seats!
Um.... buy the base model that comes with power memory seats and add the lighting package. Done.
The X Men commented:
October 14, 2012, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Um.... buy the base model that comes with power memory seats and add the lighting package. Done.
In my opinion, the sport line is pretty much a must too, thats another $2500. I do think it was smart for BMW to change up the options packages and the stand alone options on the 2013 F30 to make things more affortable.
voip-ninja commented:
October 14, 2012, 12:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In my opinion, the sport line is pretty much a must too, thats another $2500. I do think it was smart for BMW to change up the options packages and the stand alone options on the 2013 F30 to make things more affortable.
The sport line is not a must but I certainly did not want to order without it.
sr5959 commented:
October 14, 2012, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by the x men View Post
in my opinion, the sport line is pretty much a must too, thats another $2500. I do think it was smart for bmw to change up the options packages and the stand alone options on the 2013 f30 to make things more affortable.
+1
Bumer commented:
October 14, 2012, 2:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Power memory seats became std for the 2013 model year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Um.... buy the base model that comes with power memory seats and add the lighting package. Done.
You guys right! That must have been something else I tried to add, and I had to add leather, then I had to add premium package... Don't recall exactly what, but will check later.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Audi is a long ways from the Audi 5000 debacle.
What debacle? Some descendent of Big Foot bought the car and ruined it for everyone else.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 8:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
What debacle? Some descendent of Big Foot bought the car and ruined it for everyone else.
Is that what happened to Toyota?
Michael Schott commented:
October 15, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
What debacle? Some descendent of Big Foot bought the car and ruined it for everyone else.
And the media ran with the story and almost killed Audi.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 9:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
And the media ran with the story and almost killed Audi.
I think what almost killed Audi was the president of Audi's response to the incidents that American need to learn how to drive.
elistan commented:
October 15, 2012, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumer View Post
You guys right! That must have been something else I tried to add, and I had to add leather, then I had to add premium package... Don't recall exactly what, but will check later.
For the 2012 models, you needed PP to get HIDs. BMW changed that for the 2013 models, such that HIDs can be puchased on their own.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 15, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
And the media ran with the story and almost killed Audi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I think what almost killed Audi was the president of Audi's response to the incidents that American need to learn how to drive.
THAT debacle lol
Michael Schott commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I think what almost killed Audi was the president of Audi's response to the incidents that American need to learn how to drive.
I don't recall that statement but of course he was right.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:28 pm

CBS' 60 minutes segment demonstrating the sudden acceleration on TV also sent sales of the Audi 5000 plummeting. Of course we all know now that the car on that 60 minutes segment was rigged.
justinnum1 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
CBS' 60 minutes segment demonstrating the sudden acceleration on TV also sent sales of the Audi 5000 plummeting. Of course we all know now that the car on that 60 minutes segment was rigged.
Of course it was.
boltjaM3s commented:
October 15, 2012, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFL335i View Post
Wow, not to change the subject, but that's a very nice luxury F30 in the mineral gray. Although Im partial to the sport line, your car looks awesome.
Thanks.

I just came off of three years in an E90 M-Sport and wanted something with a little bling on it this time. Away with the no-chrome exterior, away with the all-black interior.

Sometimes you just have to throw a change-up.

BJ
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Of course it was.


"On 23 November 1986, 60 Minutes aired a segment greenlit by Hewitt, concerning the Audi 5000 automobile, a popular German luxury car. The story covered a supposed problem of "unintended acceleration" when the brake pedal was pushed, with emotional interviews with six people who sued Audi (unsuccessfully) after they crashed their cars, including one woman whose six year old boy had been killed. Footage was shown of an Audi 5000 with the accelerator moving down on its own, accelerating the car, after an expert witness employed by one of the plaintiffs modified it with a concealed device to cause it to do so."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_minu...d_acceleration
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
CBS' 60 minutes segment demonstrating the sudden acceleration on TV also sent sales of the Audi 5000 plummeting. Of course we all know now that the car on that 60 minutes segment was rigged.
There was another rigged demo, I think of a pickup or some other car burning/exploding, and I think that time it was NBC. Gotta love "journalists." I always wonder about what percentage of the stuff they feed us is pure crap.

There, google auto complete is the path to almost anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
voip-ninja commented:
October 16, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
There was another rigged demo, I think of a pickup or some other car burning/exploding, and I think that time it was NBC. Gotta love "journalists." I always wonder about what percentage of the stuff they feed us is pure crap.

There, google auto complete is the path to almost anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
The amount of quality work that journalists do far outweighs the outliers like this.
voip-ninja commented:
October 30, 2012, 9:51 am

And.... I'm back in the E90. The replacement cupholder arrived and I needed a loaner while they install it. I also asked them to look for a new noise in the passenger headliner area as well as some hissing that I've noticed on the stereo.

Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
The X Men commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
And.... I'm back in the E90. The replacement cupholder arrived and I needed a loaner while they install it. I also asked them to look for a new noise in the passenger headliner area as well as some hissing that I've noticed on the stereo.

Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
There were some rattle problems with the E90 as well early on, the later E90 were pretty much almost rattle free. I guess it takes BMW 3 to 4 years to work out all the rattles and bugs.
voip-ninja commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
There were some rattle problems with the E90 as well early on, the later E90 were pretty much almost rattle free. I guess it takes BMW 3 to 4 years to work out all the rattles and bugs.
Yep, the E90 loaners have zero rattles. That's the downside of getting the latest/greatest. Both of my Audis were late in their life cycles and also had zero rattles.
Michael Schott commented:
October 30, 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
There were some rattle problems with the E90 as well early on, the later E90 were pretty much almost rattle free. I guess it takes BMW 3 to 4 years to work out all the rattles and bugs.
My 2 E90's (2008, 2011) have been rattle free. The only rattle is from the child car seat on occasion.
The X Men commented:
October 30, 2012, 5:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
My 2 E90's (2008, 2011) have been rattle free. The only rattle is from the child car seat on occasion.
I hate rattles with a passion, I once sold my car because the dealer couldnt fix the rattle. One of the reason I bought a BMW, beside the performance, is how solid they are build, I dont think I can be happy with a non-fixable rattle in a $50K car.
captainaudio commented:
October 30, 2012, 6:16 pm

When I first got the E93 it had a rattle which annoyed the crap out of me. I had previously owned a 1992 Lexus SC300 which was rattle free at 120,000 miles. I knew that the Lexus was going to be a hard act to follow but did not expect the BMW to have a rattle out of the box and was totally bummed out. After a week or so the rattle disappeared and has never returned . The E93 is very quiet, as quiet and perhaps quieter than the Lexus was. I don't feel that it has the build quality that the Lexus did (that car felt like it had been carved our of a solid block of steel) but it is very close and now that I have replaced the RFTs and the lousy stock shocks I am very happy with the way the car drives. I took it on last weeks Northeast Fall Foliage Run and it was a pleasure driving it on the New Engand back roads we went on.

CA
voip-ninja commented:
October 30, 2012, 7:13 pm

Well, I just got back from picking the F30 up. Cupholder replacement installed and the annoying new rattle was (drumroll please) the passenger side seat belt latch had gotten turned around and was rattling against the door. First time for everything I guess.

I also observed that my dealer did a crummy job washing my car this time around.

Put 80 miles on the loaner E90 (different one than last time but same options) and needed to put 4 gallons of gas in before I turned it back to the dealer. 20 mpg is not so hot especially when I am averaging 30 on my F30.

Final observation. The audio system in the E90 is really lacking. Not only was the stereo a disappointment today but I found that the bluetooth speakerphone is not nearly as good as it is in the F30. I know this as I sat on a 45 minute conference call during my drive north this AM.
Mark K commented:
October 30, 2012, 7:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I know this as I sat on a 45 minute conference call during my drive north this AM.
Man, you are a generous soul. No conference calls for me if I'm driving or going through the airport. I make it very clear to people involved that I will NOT be participating and the reason why. Never had problem with it.
voip-ninja commented:
October 30, 2012, 8:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Man, you are a generous soul. No conference calls for me if I'm driving or going through the airport. I make it very clear to people involved that I will NOT be participating and the reason why. Never had problem with it.
I am glad that you are able to make that an option. As I merely report to the executives who hold those calls that is not an option for me. Perhaps if and when I am either in a position of power or have my own company I can try to be more forgiving than the overlords I am currently working for.
beden1 commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
And.... I'm back in the E90. The replacement cupholder arrived and I needed a loaner while they install it. I also asked them to look for a new noise in the passenger headliner area as well as some hissing that I've noticed on the stereo.

Still loving my F30 but the noises/gremlins are a bit annoying on a car with a $52K sticker.
My new Porsche 911 has 3 rattles and I hate rattles with a passion, so don't feel bad that you have/had one in your car with a $52K sticker.

Fortunately, I found the one that is coming from the center console in front of the stick shift. The other is my passenger seatbelt buckle that is missing a felt piece that my driver side has. I'm still trying to locate the other one. I figure it's better for me to try and find them instead of waiting for the dealer to tell me that they could not duplicate it (which I also really hate)!

I have been very pleased (and surprised) that my 335is vert has been rattle free.
voip-ninja commented:
October 31, 2012, 12:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My new Porsche 911 has 3 rattles and I hate rattles with a passion, so don't feel bad that you have/had one in your car with a $52K sticker.

Fortunately, I found the one that is coming from the center console in front of the stick shift. The other is my passenger seatbelt buckle that is missing a felt piece that my driver side has. I'm still trying to locate the other one. I figure it's better for me to try and find them instead of waiting for the dealer to tell me that they could not duplicate it (which I also really hate)!

I have been very pleased (and surprised) that my 335is vert has been rattle free.
Well, your vert is based on a platform that is nearing end of production so most of the common complaints have been ironed out. This is always the risk of a new platform. I will say that my 328xi is VERY silent which is why the few gremlins have stood out. The cupholder squeak was so loud it was almost comical and fortunately they quickly sorted it. Re-installation fixed that one but they wanted to replace the part anyways.

Also, saying I shouldn't complain about rattles in my $52K car because your $125K car has rattles too should not be a factor in an F30 forum... for comparison, rate your annoyance if you complain about your Porsche rattles in a Porsche forum and someone comments that you have it easy because they have rattles in their Bentley or Lambo.
beden1 commented:
October 31, 2012, 12:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well, your vert is based on a platform that is nearing end of production so most of the common complaints have been ironed out. This is always the risk of a new platform. I will say that my 328xi is VERY silent which is why the few gremlins have stood out. The cupholder squeak was so loud it was almost comical and fortunately they quickly sorted it. Re-installation fixed that one but they wanted to replace the part anyways.

Also, saying I shouldn't complain about rattles in my $52K car because your $125K car has rattles too should not be a factor in an F30 forum... for comparison, rate your annoyance if you complain about your Porsche rattles in a Porsche forum and someone comments that you have it easy because they have rattles in their Bentley or Lambo.
I guess I was just saying that many cars have annoying rattles regardless of cost.
The X Men commented:
October 31, 2012, 8:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Man, you are a generous soul. No conference calls for me if I'm driving or going through the airport. I make it very clear to people involved that I will NOT be participating and the reason why. Never had problem with it.
I dont even turn on my cell phone when I am in my car
voip-ninja commented:
October 31, 2012, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I guess I was just saying that many cars have annoying rattles regardless of cost.
Well the (newer) rattle is still there. Apparently the tech diagnosed the wrong thing.
beden1 commented:
October 31, 2012, 12:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well the (newer) rattle is still there. Apparently the tech diagnosed the wrong thing.
It's really tough for the service techs to diagnose rattles during a test drive. If you get lucky, sometimes they know where to look from finding rattles in other cars. That's why I try to find the source myself before bringing it in for service.
E90M3_997_F430 commented:
November 3, 2012, 7:50 pm

I read as many of the posts to this topic as possible before deciding what whether to buy a used E90 or a new F30. I hadn't registered for this site but did so to share my observations and decision since I figured some people would be interested to see how this thread and my test drives affected my purchase.

I test drove an E90 335i with the sports suspension and AT. My Porsche 997 is a stick shift so I wanted something with real back seats and an automatic transmission as traffic often sucks in So Cal.

I found the E90 to be a really nice car. Coming from the Porsche I liked the heavy steering and the slightly raw feel of the E90. It felt more like a sports car than any other 4 door sedan that I have driven (including that boat the Panamera).

I also test drove a new F30 335i M Sport with the AT. I thought it was a really nice car. The head up display was useful and the added headroom in the back was nice. The car did feel more refined than the E90 but not so much so that it felt boring or squishy like a Lexus IS or a non-AMG Benz C Class. The F30 still felt nimble and fun. I did not drive the Modern or Luxury line F30 as I would have no interest in them...

The main thing I was worried about in the F30 was the steering after all the comments I read about it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the steering was still nice and heavy when driven in sport + mode. The dealer took me on the best route possible for where we were and there were some slightly twisty roads. The EPS didn't feel numb. I would be curious to see how it felt on very twisty back roads or on the track. It seemed perfectly fine for spirited driving on most public roads.

I agonized over whether to save a bunch of money by buying a used E90 or plop down the money for a brand new F30 M Sport or a regular one with the sports suspension. I almost went for the M Sport as it was the only way to get that cool blue color that is exclusive to the M Sport package.

It would have costed about $55,000 to get the F30 M Sport with the options I wanted. If I lived farther from work and needed the better MPG I would have done it. But I test drove a 2011 E90 M3 that cost the same and fell in love. It inhales gas but that engine note is just too good.

My advice for those who are contemplating a BMW purchase is to just go for the best car in your budget. I you have $25,000 to spend I'm sure you'll be really happy with a loaded E90 328i or a higher mileage or less optioned 335i.

If you have more to spend go for an F30 328i with the sports suspension. If you have yet more to spend get the F30 335i with all the goodies. And if fuel economy isn't a huge deal just get the E90 M3 or hold out for the F30 M3 if you're willing to pay a higher up front cost to get better MPG and the new body style.

The 3 Series is just a fun car, period. We shouldn't get caught up trying to figure out which one is best. It just depends on how much money you're willing to part with. I've had an E30, two E36, and now an E90. I feel lucky to have had such good cars in my life and hope everyone enjoys their 3s as much as I do, regardless of which model.
Michael Schott commented:
November 3, 2012, 7:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90M3_997_F430 View Post
I read as many of the posts to this topic as possible before deciding what whether to buy a used E90 or a new F30. I hadn't registered for this site but did so to share my observations and decision since I figured some people would be interested to see how this thread and my test drives affected my purchase.

I test drove an E90 335i with the sports suspension and AT. My Porsche 997 is a stick shift so I wanted something with real back seats and an automatic transmission as traffic often sucks in So Cal.

I found the E90 to be a really nice car. Coming from the Porsche I liked the heavy steering and the slightly raw feel of the E90. It felt more like a sports car than any other 4 door sedan that I have driven (including that boat the Panamera).

I also test drove a new F30 335i M Sport with the AT. I thought it was a really nice car. The head up display was useful and the added headroom in the back was nice. The car did feel more refined than the E90 but not so much so that it felt boring or squishy like a Lexus IS or a non-AMG Benz C Class. The F30 still felt nimble and fun. I did not drive the Modern or Luxury line F30 as I would have no interest in them...

The main thing I was worried about in the F30 was the steering after all the comments I read about it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the steering was still nice and heavy when driven in sport + mode. The dealer took me on the best route possible for where we were and there were some slightly twisty roads. The EPS didn't feel numb. I would be curious to see how it felt on very twisty back roads or on the track. It seemed perfectly fine for spirited driving on most public roads.

I agonized over whether to save a bunch of money by buying a used E90 or plop down the money for a brand new F30 M Sport or a regular one with the sports suspension. I almost went for the M Sport as it was the only way to get that cool blue color that is exclusive to the M Sport package.

It would have costed about $55,000 to get the F30 M Sport with the options I wanted. If I lived farther from work and needed the better MPG I would have done it. But I test drove a 2011 E90 M3 that cost the same and fell in love. It inhales gas but that engine note is just too good.

My advice for those who are contemplating a BMW purchase is to just go for the best car in your budget. I you have $25,000 to spend I'm sure you'll be really happy with a loaded E90 328i or a higher mileage or less optioned 335i.

If you have more to spend go for an F30 328i with the sports suspension. If you have yet more to spend get the F30 335i with all the goodies. And if fuel economy isn't a huge deal just get the E90 M3 or hold out for the F30 M3 if you're willing to pay a higher up front cost to get better MPG and the new body style.

The 3 Series is just a fun car, period. We shouldn't get caught up trying to figure out which one is best. It just depends on how much money you're willing to part with. I've had an E30, two E36, and now an E90. I feel lucky to have had such good cars in my life and hope everyone enjoys their 3s as much as I do, regardless of which model.
Thank you for your perspective. Many of us come here with preconceived notions that color our opinions. And congratulations on the M3. What a great car for both idling on the 5 freeway and blasting over the mountains.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 3, 2012, 10:35 pm

I think rattles are usually due to pieces rubbing against each other, especially plastic ones, and wires/harnesses and other things not being properly tied/secured. The rubbing plastic rattles sometimes disappear over time because the rubbing basically "sands" and smooths out the sharp edges that create the squeaks and certain types of rattle.

A long time ago a read and article or saw a commercial - can't remember which - that claimed Audi mounts each car on some hydraulic arm that turns the cars upside down and "shakes them", to see if some any rattles develop. I don't know how effective that is and whether they still do it, but it demonstrated to me how annoying rattles are to customers and how they affect their perception of quality.
voip-ninja commented:
November 3, 2012, 10:58 pm

I am going to have to have my wife drive me around tomorrow so I can try to figure out what is causing it. All I know at this point is, it's not the stupid seatbelt latch or buckle.
justinnum1 commented:
November 3, 2012, 11:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I am going to have to have my wife drive me around tomorrow so I can try to figure out what is causing it. All I know at this point is, it's not the stupid seatbelt latch or buckle.
try driving over those reflectors on the road, maybe there is a road where there are a lot of them for like a mile, that has helped me try and isolate a rattle
voip-ninja commented:
November 4, 2012, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
try driving over those reflectors on the road, maybe there is a road where there are a lot of them for like a mile, that has helped me try and isolate a rattle
I live in Highlands Ranch in which the 45-55mph main thoroughfares are made of concrete slabs instead of smooth asphalt, reproducing the problem is very easy which is why I'm irritated the service tech provided the "seatbelt vibration" copout.
voip-ninja commented:
November 5, 2012, 3:16 pm

So, as promised I got my wife driving the F30 yesterday and low and behold I could not detect the noise.

I am suspicious that when I got into the car and re-adjusted the seat position, that might have cured it... now the question is did I cure it temporarily or permanently?

I did observe that when the car was last detailed the seat had been moved up and forward, so perhaps when it is at full extension there is a part that is rattling or resonating explaining the problem.

Or perhaps I am simply losing my mind.
beden1 commented:
November 5, 2012, 4:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So, as promised I got my wife driving the F30 yesterday and low and behold I could not detect the noise.

I am suspicious that when I got into the car and re-adjusted the seat position, that might have cured it... now the question is did I cure it temporarily or permanently?

I did observe that when the car was last detailed the seat had been moved up and forward, so perhaps when it is at full extension there is a part that is rattling or resonating explaining the problem.

Or perhaps I am simply losing my mind.
It could also be that the colder temps have temporarily stopped the problem. In some past cars I've owned, I would get different rattles depending on if it was hot or cold outside.
voip-ninja commented:
November 5, 2012, 6:59 pm

Yes, I've had plenty of temperature related rattles in cars over the years, however the temperature has been relatively constant over the last week so I don't think that would explain it.

The good news is that I spent two hours driving the F30 today and nothing rattled obviously enough that I was bothered by it. Generally it has to be noticeable over the stereo before I start to get irritated with it.
captainaudio commented:
November 5, 2012, 7:08 pm

I found that if there is something rattling in the heater outlet under the front seats the rattle can sound like it comes from the dash.

CA