Driven Back-to-Back: 335i M-Sport vs Audi S4

by Bimmerfest.com Member - cantona7 on October 14, 2012, 10:43 pm
Our test-driving adventures continue. My wife and I had previously driven a 328i M-Sport 6MT and a 335i Lux Line. From that drive, we preferred the 328i but also wanted to find at least a 335i in Sport Line or M-Sport to drive. We also wanted to do our due diligence and give the 2013 S4 a shot. That's exactly what we did today. Up first was the S4...

2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.

2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.

Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.

Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."


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158 responses to Driven Back-to-Back: 335i M-Sport vs Audi S4

justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 10:58 pm

Totally agree. Also, the Stronic is a DSG.
cantona7 commented:
October 14, 2012, 10:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Totally agree. Also, the Stronic is a DSG.
It is??? Yikes, the autobox in the BMW is just mind-bogglingly good.
justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
It is??? Yikes, the autobox in the BMW is just mind-bogglingly good.
Yep, i drove the S5 with stronic last week and i was shocked to go home and find out it was a DSG. the ZF8sport is better imo.
cantona7 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:05 pm

Hey, I see you have the 328i Sport line. After all these drives, we're still leaning toward the 328i. Would love to get your thoughts, as you've had the 328 for a while, right?
justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
Hey, I see you have the 328i Sport line. After all these drives, we're still leaning toward the 328i. Would love to get your thoughts, as you've had the 328 for a while, right?
Love my 328. You cant go wrong with it. 0-60 in 5.6 seconds and close to 40mpg on the highway.
cantona7 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Love my 328. You cant go wrong with it. 0-60 in 5.6 seconds and close to 40mpg on the highway.
So why the change?
justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
So why the change?
The are putting me in a 335 for the same price i am paying for my 328. i would be happy in either car but figured i would give the 335 a try this time.
tturedraider commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
The are putting me in a 335 for the same price i am paying for my 328. i would be happy in either car but figured i would give the 335 a try this time.
More to it than that. Tell of your steering troubles.
justinnum1 commented:
October 14, 2012, 11:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
More to it than that. Tell of your steering troubles.
Yep, forgot to mention the steering wheel vibrates between 40-60. A subtle shake. Cant feel it but i can see it.
radari216 commented:
October 15, 2012, 12:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
Our test-driving adventures continue. My wife and I had previously driven a 328i M-Sport 6MT and a 335i Lux Line. From that drive, we preferred the 328i but also wanted to find at least a 335i in Sport Line or M-Sport to drive. We also wanted to do our due diligence and give the 2013 S4 a shot. That's exactly what we did today. Up first was the S4...

2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.

2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.

Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.

Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
How would you describe and compare interior cabin noise between the two vehicles?
sf_loft commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:00 am

Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice. Congrats! I came from a 335 e92 and the only thing I had to get used to was the steering, moving from hydraulic to electric. Now BMW and Audi are on par and opinions will vary from driver to driver. MT prefers the Audi steering, but with any artificially weighted system, there will be annoyances that is subjective to the driver. I feel that the Supercharger is a much smoother delivery system, no lag, and power just seems to surge continuously. I haven't driven the new BMW 8 speed, but my DSG is super quick and smooth, sometimes abrupt in dynamic mode, but it is to be expected. The S4 is one generation behind, just slightly refreshed, and not a volume seller like the BMW so don't expect great lease deals or deep discount. The two cars are so similar that many will prefer the BMW because of value.
cantona7 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by radari216 View Post
How would you describe and compare interior cabin noise between the two vehicles?
I would call it a tie. Compared to my M3, both are very, very muted and quiet. But as I mentioned, the S4 had a really annoying creak from the top of the passenger side front window every time we went over bumpy pavement. This was made especially annoying because the cabin was otherwise silent. In terms of ergonomics, I really disliked the Audi's controls for the AC and the placement of the drive modes. You need to take your eyes off the road in order to locate the drive mode buttons, which are located in the center stack. With the F30, the switch that's located next to the shifter makes so much sense, and it's large enough that you can do everything by feel and confirm your selection in the instrument cluster.
justinnum1 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice. Congrats! I came from a 335 e92 and the only thing I had to get used to was the steering, moving from hydraulic to electric. Now BMW and Audi are on par and opinions will vary from driver to driver. MT prefers the Audi steering, but with any artificially weighted system, there will be annoyances that is subjective to the driver. I feel that the Supercharger is a much smoother delivery system, no lag, and power just seems to surge continuously. I haven't driven the new BMW 8 speed, but my DSG is super quick and smooth, sometimes abrupt in dynamic mode, but it is to be expected. The S4 is one generation behind, just slightly refreshed, and not a volume seller like the BMW so don't expect great lease deals or deep discount. The two cars are so similar that many will prefer the BMW because of value.
S4 owner coming in to try and defend his car lol
cantona7 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice. Congrats! I came from a 335 e92 and the only thing I had to get used to was the steering, moving from hydraulic to electric. Now BMW and Audi are on par and opinions will vary from driver to driver. MT prefers the Audi steering, but with any artificially weighted system, there will be annoyances that is subjective to the driver. I feel that the Supercharger is a much smoother delivery system, no lag, and power just seems to surge continuously. I haven't driven the new BMW 8 speed, but my DSG is super quick and smooth, sometimes abrupt in dynamic mode, but it is to be expected. The S4 is one generation behind, just slightly refreshed, and not a volume seller like the BMW so don't expect great lease deals or deep discount. The two cars are so similar that many will prefer the BMW because of value.
Glad you like your car. I didn't have a horse in this race...we were test-driving and considered the S4 a possible candidate. At least it was before today. The E9x cars didn't appeal to us either, not even the M3. I expect the B9 S4 will be much improved.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:46 am

The ZF 8 speed feels like a dual clutch. Shifts are butter smooth and downshifts happe in no time at all. The gearbox just grabs gears on the fly.
enigma commented:
October 15, 2012, 5:30 am

I am not sure what you test drove. The S4 comes only in two transmission configurations: 6 speed manual and 7 speed S tronic DSG. In other words, the "S tronic" on the S4 is the DSG. How did you exactly feel that the DSG was slower?




Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
Our test-driving adventures continue. My wife and I had previously driven a 328i M-Sport 6MT and a 335i Lux Line. From that drive, we preferred the 328i but also wanted to find at least a 335i in Sport Line or M-Sport to drive. We also wanted to do our due diligence and give the 2013 S4 a shot. That's exactly what we did today. Up first was the S4...

2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.

2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.

Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.

Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
ianturner commented:
October 15, 2012, 7:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice. Congrats! I came from a 335 e92 and the only thing I had to get used to was the steering, moving from hydraulic to electric. Now BMW and Audi are on par and opinions will vary from driver to driver. MT prefers the Audi steering, but with any artificially weighted system, there will be annoyances that is subjective to the driver. I feel that the Supercharger is a much smoother delivery system, no lag, and power just seems to surge continuously. I haven't driven the new BMW 8 speed, but my DSG is super quick and smooth, sometimes abrupt in dynamic mode, but it is to be expected. The S4 is one generation behind, just slightly refreshed, and not a volume seller like the BMW so don't expect great lease deals or deep discount. The two cars are so similar that many will prefer the BMW because of value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
S4 owner coming in to try and defend his car lol
I've owned 2 e92's and 1 B8 S4. I liked things about both, but I got rid of the S4 after 8 months. If the chip had been out before I sold my S4 I probably would have kept it because that thing chipped is a beast. If I had ordered the prestige package I would have kept it. I think the Audi interface with MMI is much better than BMW. For example with the audi, i could say "Call John Doe" and it would start dialing, unless things have changed you cant do that with the BMW. The BMW handled much better though, and at the end of the day I'm about to order another BMW. Both cars are great, I just prefer BMW and really wish i could combine features of both cars.
g37to335i commented:
October 15, 2012, 7:08 am

I also thought the S4 was great, but if you look at the 2012s they already look ancient. The same cant be said about the E9xs. Also the power pack is on its way which should address the 0.2s difference in acceleration. The x drive is already faster though based on BMWs website.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 8:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
Glad you like your car. I didn't have a horse in this race...we were test-driving and considered the S4 a possible candidate. At least it was before today. The E9x cars didn't appeal to us either, not even the M3. I expect the B9 S4 will be much improved.
Nice review cantona7, I dont have a horse in this race either. I also test drove the S4 a while back, athough it was a very nice car, it wasnt what I was looking for. One thing I must disagree with you on is the engine, the Audi 3.0T simply feels quicker.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
October 15, 2012, 8:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice. Congrats! I came from a 335 e92 and the only thing I had to get used to was the steering, moving from hydraulic to electric. Now BMW and Audi are on par and opinions will vary from driver to driver. MT prefers the Audi steering, but with any artificially weighted system, there will be annoyances that is subjective to the driver. I feel that the Supercharger is a much smoother delivery system, no lag, and power just seems to surge continuously. I haven't driven the new BMW 8 speed, but my DSG is super quick and smooth, sometimes abrupt in dynamic mode, but it is to be expected. The S4 is one generation behind, just slightly refreshed, and not a volume seller like the BMW so don't expect great lease deals or deep discount. The two cars are so similar that many will prefer the BMW because of value.
DSG shifts quicker and the 3.0 in the S4 makes more power than the N55. IMO when equipped with the Sport Diff the S4 is a notch above in the performance category than the 335i. On the other hand, I personally prefer RWD, lower weight and nearly perfect weight distribution in the BMW.
sean10mm commented:
October 15, 2012, 10:38 am

The S4 is clearly better on paper than the 335i in most respects, but it's also priced quite a bit higher. Not only is the MSRP higher, all else being equal, but the real-world pricing is actually worse than the MSRP difference suggests. It's kind of funny talking about "value" in cars you can easily option over $50,000, but the markup is still non-trivial.

And while the S4 has more power, it's also something like 300lbs heavier when comparing 6MT models. Even if you add xdrive to the BMW it's still about 150 pounds lighter. The S4 is also more nose-heavy by far, and again even the xdrive BMW is closer to 50/50 than the S4. Apparently the sport diff option on the S4 negates the nose-heavy feel pretty well, but again you're adding cost compared to the 335i.

With all the performance options (DSG, adaptive suspension, sport diff) I'd expect the S4 to edge the 335i on the track...but you've also pushed the sticker price into a different class at that point, and it's an open question if you're getting enough in relation to what you're paying.
T111 commented:
October 15, 2012, 11:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
The S4 is clearly better on paper than the 335i in most respects, but it's also priced quite a bit higher. Not only is the MSRP higher, all else being equal, but the real-world pricing is actually worse than the MSRP difference suggests. It's kind of funny talking about "value" in cars you can easily option over $50,000, but the markup is still non-trivial.

And while the S4 has more power, it's also something like 300lbs heavier when comparing 6MT models. Even if you add xdrive to the BMW it's still about 150 pounds lighter. The S4 is also more nose-heavy by far, and again even the xdrive BMW is closer to 50/50 than the S4. Apparently the sport diff option on the S4 negates the nose-heavy feel pretty well, but again you're adding cost compared to the 335i.

With all the performance options (DSG, adaptive suspension, sport diff) I'd expect the S4 to edge the 335i on the track...but you've also pushed the sticker price into a different class at that point, and it's an open question if you're getting enough in relation to what you're paying.
It will "edge" it out, the S4 is a track monster. Ask anyone who tracks often, you always see S4s passing 335s at the track, that sport diff is an incredible piece of hardware. I owned two F30s (both 335i's), both we're plagued by the steering vibration. It is unacceptable for a car of this supposedly caliber to have an issue like this. Just watch the Head 2 Head on the F30 and S4, its clear who is not only faster in a straight line, but faster around the twisties. The S4 dethroned the 335 here (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test) and that was years ago. All the car magazines continually grip about how the E90 was a better car, with the F30 being to soft. After owning TWO I can attest to this after driving the S4 recently. Keep in mind this review is coming from someone who gave BMW a chance TWICE and has purchased many of them in the past so please don't refer to me as a "troll" or any of that crap. I was excited to get my F30 this first time and even more excited the second because I figured my second one wouldn't have the issue thus it not only upsets me, but saddens me because I really love the brand.
g37to335i commented:
October 15, 2012, 12:38 pm

It seems to me your main issue with the F30 is the reliability issue with the 2 you have had so far. Is this correct, I am only asking because this is a decision I am also facing but am leaning towards the 335i in pure, x drive or active hybrid form. I don't track my cars and with the power pack I should have more than enough power for every day driving
cantona7 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I am not sure what you test drove. The S4 comes only in two transmission configurations: 6 speed manual and 7 speed S tronic DSG. In other words, the "S tronic" on the S4 is the DSG. How did you exactly feel that the DSG was slower?
It's hard to describe why I felt the S Tronic was slower...it just felt, well, less responsive. Maybe it's not objectively slower, but the sequence of push-throttle-and-see-what-happens just FELT slower. YMMV, of course. And this is pretty hair-splitting at this point. I didn't actually think it was "slow"—it's just that when I drove the 335, it was like "Hello!"

Part of this might just be the fact that the AWD Quattro imparts a different feel to the car. My wife simply said she likes the feeling of a RWD car better—she's more sensitive than I am in this regard and doesn't even consider the Mini Cooper S fun to drive because it doesn't have RWD (I find the Mini plenty fun.)
Chris90 commented:
October 15, 2012, 1:49 pm

European car mags (EVO, CAR) say the same thing about even the RS4, that it lacks an emotional bond, too clinical. That's a bummer cause the Audis are awesome on paper.
boomn29 commented:
October 15, 2012, 3:37 pm

Nice original review by the OP.

I too choose the 335i over the S4. I picked the 335i Sport Line (seats are terrific) - over a similarly optioned S4 that was about $6k higher - w/o the fancy rear diff. The S4 is actually a touch quicker, but they both feel way better than 300 or 333hp as claimed and have tons of torque. The paddle-shifting between the 2 cars are both very good; better than ANYTHING else I've driven. The S4 auto-blips the throttle on downshifts which is pretty cool. That super-charged V6 pulls like hell; which is very fun. I know the S4 is heavier, but it really doesn't feel like it. The moonroof has a ton of settings which is just odd for me to understand on why it's needed.

The S4 seats were crap, they're leather but not comfy at all and never fit me at 160 lbs. The exterior is so blah, and the only difference between it and the A4 is like 3 little badges. Again, it's $58k - $63k. W/O Nav or rearview camera it's around $54k.

I did get into an 08 RS4 6sp manual and it felt pretty damn sweet for a 4yr old car with 40,000 miles. I was wanting a warranty though...
cantona7 commented:
October 15, 2012, 4:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomn29 View Post
The S4 auto-blips the throttle on downshifts which is pretty cool.
You know, I did wonder about that when I thought the S Tronic meant it was an automatic. The thing is, the engine is so quiet in the cabin that I thought I'd just imagined seeing the blip. LOL.
boomn29 commented:
October 15, 2012, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
You know, I did wonder about that when I thought the S Tronic meant it was an automatic. The thing is, the engine is so quiet in the cabin that I thought I'd just imagined seeing the blip. LOL.
I got the S4 to downshift and toss the RPM's up near 5-6k and you could tell it auto-blipped then. The S4 engine is just a touch louder than the 335i - both too quiet at high RPM's imo. The V8 M3 is just plain loud though.

fwiw, the newer A4's that aren't manual are CVT's... blah.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 5:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomn29 View Post
fwiw, the newer A4's that aren't manual are CVT's... blah.
I beleive only the FWD A4 gets the CVT.
justinnum1 commented:
October 15, 2012, 6:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I beleive only the FWD A4 gets the CVT.
correct.
The X Men commented:
October 15, 2012, 8:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
correct.
See, we can agree on some things
dtc100 commented:
October 15, 2012, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
See, we can agree on some things
Good to see people trying very hard to agree on something
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people.
And unfortunately that pretty much sums up the usefulness of your write-up to others, but thanks for being forthright with your disclosure.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomn29 View Post
The S4 seats were crap, they're leather but not comfy at all and never fit me at 160 lbs. The exterior is so blah, and the only difference between it and the A4 is like 3 little badges. Again, it's $58k - $63k. W/O Nav or rearview camera it's around $54k.
OK, were do you guys pull these numbers from???

P+ S4 is between $47K and $49K, depending on transmission. Add $1K for the rear differential and I wouldn't want anything more added to it. So how does it start at $58K? Even the Prestige line starts around $53K-55K

PS: I do agree with a poster who said the interior is not as luxurious as it was made to be in the press. The S4 interior is more sporty. You can't even get wood trim. In that sense, the A4 offers colors and trim choices that will make it look luxurious than the S4.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:20 am

You do realize that you're on a BMW forum right? I think that pretty much guarantees that most of us here are bimmer enthusiasts. And I'm just sharing thoughts on my experiences while shopping for a new car, and comparing the F30 against its closest-in-class rivals. As you've rightfully noticed, I'm not the only Bimmerfest-er who does this. If you're looking for objective reviews by non-BMW people, Bimmerfest might not be the best venue to do so.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
You do realize that you're on a BMW forum right? I think that pretty much guarantees that most of us here are bimmer enthusiasts. And I'm just sharing thoughts on my experiences while shopping for a new car, and comparing the F30 against its closest-in-class rivals. As you've rightfully noticed, I'm not the only Bimmerfest-er who does this. If you're looking for objective reviews by non-BMW people, Bimmerfest might not be the best venue to do so.
I do realize that and I have no problem with it. But when you basically say your test drive was all over before it even started, I can't help but
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 4:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I do realize that and I have no problem with it. But when you basically say your test drive was all over before it even started, I can't help but
All that eye rolling must be affecting how you see the sequence of events that I've related.

Read my review—I drove the S4 before the 335. The S4 only felt "wrong" to me AFTER I got in the 335.
dtc100 commented:
October 16, 2012, 11:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
You do realize that you're on a BMW forum right? I think that pretty much guarantees that most of us here are bimmer enthusiasts. And I'm just sharing thoughts on my experiences while shopping for a new car, and comparing the F30 against its closest-in-class rivals. As you've rightfully noticed, I'm not the only Bimmerfest-er who does this. If you're looking for objective reviews by non-BMW people, Bimmerfest might not be the best venue to do so.
It appears driving dynamics is very important to you, ever considered testing an ATS V6 with MRC and LSD?
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 11:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
It appears driving dynamics is very important to you, ever considered testing an ATS V6 with MRC and LSD?
Everything i have read about the ATS says the handling is superior to the BMW and thats it. The manual and auto trannys are poor. The engines are not as good as the BMW equivalent(2.0t and 3.6L)

While handling is a critical element to driving dynamics, there are other factors that are important. Ulitimaltey that will be up to each driver to decide what they think.
T111 commented:
October 16, 2012, 11:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
OK, were do you guys pull these numbers from???

P+ S4 is between $47K and $49K, depending on transmission. Add $1K for the rear differential and I wouldn't want anything more added to it. So how does it start at $58K? Even the Prestige line starts around $53K-55K

PS: I do agree with a poster who said the interior is not as luxurious as it was made to be in the press. The S4 interior is more sporty. You can't even get wood trim. In that sense, the A4 offers colors and trim choices that will make it look luxurious than the S4.
Your basing luxury off being able to get wood or not? Seems a little ridiculous.....I own an '11 A4 Prestige and owned two F30 335i's (both plagued by the steering vibrating and bought out of). I can tell you that Audi has a nicer interior no questions asked. The quality of their dash materials and HVAC controls are superior in the Audi. Plus I find the nappa leather in the S4 to be nicer than the dakota leather. One of my businesses is manufacturing and I can tell you, objectively, Audi uses higher quality materials in the B8.5 than the F30. BMW is going far to mainstream with the F30, I found it to be soft compared to both the ATS and S4. Also I can objectively tell you that the ATS has a superior chassis, suspension and steering. All the tests have been with that awful 6 speed and the 2.0T. I drove the 3.6L an fit was phenomenal, very potent actually and sublimely balanced (3461lbs). Sure that CUE system has its quirks however the system still functions fine when you get used to it. The S4 is hands down a better performer than the 335i, all the comparisons agree as do I. Driving the two back to back illustrated to me the first time an Audi was sportier than a BMW. As a result of my horrific experience with these two F30s I will now be purchasing either the S4 or the ATS 3.6. The vibration alone is worth demoting the new F30 to the bottom of the totem pole, at teas until they fix it, which nobody knows when that will happen. The sad thing about all this is that I am a major BMW proponent, having owned many in the past, though I worry about the brands non-M cars now and in the future.
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by T111 View Post
Your basing luxury off being able to get wood or not? Seems a little ridiculous.....I own an '11 A4 Prestige and owned two F30 335i's (both plagued by the steering vibrating and bought out of). I can tell you that Audi has a nicer interior no questions asked. The quality of their dash materials and HVAC controls are superior in the Audi. Plus I find the nappa leather in the S4 to be nicer than the dakota leather. One of my businesses is manufacturing and I can tell you, objectively, Audi uses higher quality materials in the B8.5 than the F30. BMW is going far to mainstream with the F30, I found it to be soft compared to both the ATS and S4. Also I can objectively tell you that the ATS has a superior chassis, suspension and steering. All the tests have been with that awful 6 speed and the 2.0T. I drove the 3.6L an fit was phenomenal, very potent actually and sublimely balanced (3461lbs). Sure that CUE system has its quirks however the system still functions fine when you get used to it. As a result of my horrific experience with these two F30s I will now be purchasing either the S4 or the ATS 3.6. The vibration alone is worth demoting the new F30 to the bottom of the totem pole, at teas until they fix it, which nobody knows when that will happen.
In your opinion of course.
dtc100 commented:
October 16, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Everything i have read about the ATS says the handling is superior to the BMW and thats it. The manual and auto trannys are poor. The engines are not as good as the BMW equivalent(2.0t and 3.6L)

While handling is a critical element to driving dynamics, there are other factors that are important. Ulitimaltey that will be up to each driver to decide what they think.
The ZF 6sp auto in the ATS has not been reviewed yet, nor has the 3.6.

Many automatically think 8sp is better than 6sp, but IMHO, 6sp is the right amount of gears if you like to use paddles or manual shift often.
cchrisv commented:
October 16, 2012, 12:06 pm

I currently drive a Cadillac CTS Coupe. The car is very comfortable but not very sport.


I've been in the process of test driving a ton of different cars to find my next vehicle. Right now my choices are between the A4 2.0T, 328i, S4 3.0T, and 335xi. I want a manual so I cant get the 328xi.

From my experience so far:
- Audi's are terrible to lease. The S4 is $150 more than the 335xi to lease, and then the A4 is around the same price as the 335xi to lease. This is with 1k below invoice on the Audi's and ED Invoice + $750 for the BMWs.

The S4 was my favorite to drive. This will be my first Audi or BMW so I am not use to either one. My main love with the S4 was the transmission. The Audi manual just felt better compared to the BMW shifter. However, I know I will get use to the BMW one. From what I've been reading the manuals is not BMW strong point.

Sadly, I cant decide what to buy and might hold off until the end of the year. It doens't help that service from dealerships in Maryland has been so poor. Both BMW and Audi has been far worse than my experience buying my Cadillac. If I buy a BMW I will be buying it from one of the sponsors here that have been super helpfull. I wanted to do a local dealership because I wanted to trade in the Cadillac but will probably sell it myself now.
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 12:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The ZF 6sp auto in the ATS has not been reviewed yet, nor has the 3.6.

Many automatically think 8sp is better than 6sp, but IMHO, 6sp is the right amount of gears if you like to use paddles or manual shift often.
Maybe not by car mags, but i have read from forums of drivers who have said the 6sp auto is poor and the engine is rough.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 12:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
It appears driving dynamics is very important to you, ever considered testing an ATS V6 with MRC and LSD?
The ATS is an interesting car. I like that they kept the weight pegged to that of the E46 M3, since that's the car I drive. I don't even mind the styling that much. My wife is a different story. She's not a fan of the styling and even less so of the interior design. Since this is going to be her car, it's a non-starter. But the chassis, suspension and everything I've read about its handling is very compelling. If there was a dealer nearby, we'd probably give it a drive just to see.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 12:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by T111 View Post
Your basing luxury off being able to get wood or not? Seems a little ridiculous.....I own an '11 A4 Prestige and owned two F30 335i's (both plagued by the steering vibrating and bought out of). I can tell you that Audi has a nicer interior no questions asked. The quality of their dash materials and HVAC controls are superior in the Audi. Plus I find the nappa leather in the S4 to be nicer than the dakota leather. One of my businesses is manufacturing and I can tell you, objectively, Audi uses higher quality materials in the B8.5 than the F30.
I actually find the quality of materials in the B8.5 S4 really excellent. In fact, I actually thought it was nicer than the interior in an A6 that the dealer gave us a ride in (the S4 was not located at their showroom.) But I didn't like the HVAC controls at all. Glad to see that Audi has stuck to the traditional turn signal stalk though. Seriously, I hate BMW's overthought turn signal implementation. In terms of design, I like the BMW's interior better. Totally subjective, yes, but there are also little ergonomic things I didn't like about the placement of some of the buttons for the S4. I'm sure others with different priorities will have preference the other way.
If I owned the car, I'm sure I'd get used to it. There are lots of quirks about the E46's interior that I really dislike—much more so than the S4's—and I've gotten used to them over the years.
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 1:16 pm

Interesting thread.

If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.

I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi — but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.

- Mike
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 1:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Interesting thread.

If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.

I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi - but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.

- Mike
The 328 seems to be better balanced, even on public roads. The turbo 4 has spunk.
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 1:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 328 seems to be better balanced, even on public roads. The turbo 4 has spunk.
Vibrates like a mofo at idle, and not as smooth as the I6, but a very good powerplant nonetheless. Mass is so last year.

- Mike
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Vibrates like a mofo at idle, and not as smooth as the I6, but a very good powerplant nonetheless. Mass is so last year.

- Mike
Yeah, I've seen the stick shake when the cars idling, but BMW's I6 has always been it's trademark. It's what BMW does. I'm sure with time, this four banger(if kept in production) will work it's way to be as smooth as the I6 is today.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Interesting thread.

If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.

I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi — but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.

- Mike
I have driven the 328i. Found one with 6MT and M-Sport w/ DHP a couple of weeks ago and it was the first F30 I drove. Fantastic car. I found it much more lively feeling and while it doesn't pull like a freight train the way that both the 335 and S4 do, it just felt way more fun to drive. Didn't care for the way the engine sounds, but it only really bugged me when it was idling while I was standing outside the car. With the options that my wife wants, the price differential between the 328 and 335 would be fairly negligible, so that's why we've looked seriously at the latter.

If we were buying a car today, it would be the 328i with M-Sport, 6MT in EBII.
But we're probably going to ED this car, so we've got plenty of time for more test drives and decision making.
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:05 pm

328 is an awesome car. I wish there were some good roads in south Florida where i could appreciate the nibble feel of this car.
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
I have driven the 328i. Found one with 6MT and M-Sport w/ DHP a couple of weeks ago and it was the first F30 I drove. Fantastic car. I found it much more lively feeling and while it doesn't pull like a freight train the way that both the 335 and S4 do, it just felt way more fun to drive. Didn't care for the way the engine sounds, but it only really bugged me when it was idling while I was standing outside the car. With the options that my wife wants, the price differential between the 328 and 335 would be fairly negligible, so that's why we've looked seriously at the latter.

If we were buying a car today, it would be the 328i with M-Sport, 6MT in EBII.
But we're probably going to ED this car, so we've got plenty of time for more test drives and decision making.
Yeah, one needs to stay off the options with the 328i or the 335i starts making much better sense.

In the 335i vs. S4 debate, the biggest factor is AWD — completely changes the driving dynamics.

- Mike
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Yeah, one needs to stay off the options with the 328i or the 335i starts making much better sense.

In the 335i vs. S4 debate, the biggest factor is AWD — completely changes the driving dynamics.

- Mike
Whats your take on that? Do you prefer AWD or RWD?
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Whats your take on that? Do you prefer AWD or RWD?
I prefer RWD, but I really appreciate AWD.

Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.

Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.

My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.

- Mike
Chris90 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cchrisv View Post
From what I've been reading the manuals is not BMW strong point.
Never heard that before some clown who tested the ATS, but BMW manuals are quite different from say a Honda manual. They don't like to be rushed, you have to be more gentle than you would with a Honda. I much prefer BMW manuals after coming from an Integra GSR and Civic EX manual. The Hondas are much shorter and easier to shift fast, but don't have that pleasurable feel of a BMW manual. And no, I'm not gay.
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:24 pm

Nice.

I really enjoyed my time in the 328. Really wish there were roads around here where i could ut it to it's limits but its just not possible. Wish i lived in westchester, NY area during the summer months.

Looking forward to getting into the 335 and seeing how it compares to the 328.

Thanks for your input.
sean10mm commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'm sure with time, this four banger(if kept in production) will work it's way to be as smooth as the I6 is today.
That's not really physically possible. An I-4 will always have secondary imbalance and non-overlapping power strokes, while an I-6 has perfect primary and secondary balance and overlapping power strokes. In terms of smoothness an I-6 is just inherently better than an I-4.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
I prefer RWD, but I really appreciate AWD.

Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.

Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.

My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.

- Mike
Great photo, Mike.

As for the feel of AWD, I think I mentioned that could be a possible reason why the S4 left me feeling ambivalent. I love the feel of RWD and now that I live in California, there's really no compelling reason to have it in a street car. Even when we lived in Boston, I happily commuted in the winter with snow tires on my E46.
sr5959 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
328 is an awesome car. I wish there were some good roads in south Florida where i could appreciate the nibble feel of this car.
This is really true! Last week just by chance had to drop someone off late at night in the countryside; that drive was so much fun on fast winding two-lane roads, better at night too because you can see a car's lights as it comes the opposite way, otherwise you can use all of the road. This really made me appreciate how strong the N20 pulls.
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
Great photo, Mike.

As for the feel of AWD, I think I mentioned that could be a possible reason why the S4 left me feeling ambivalent. I love the feel of RWD and now that I live in California, there's really no compelling reason to have it in a street car. Even when we lived in Boston, I happily commuted in the winter with snow tires on my E46.
Agreed. Plus, there is a feeling (purely mental) that AWD vehicles "feel" slower from the driver's seat. I've driven a bunch of AWD sub-3 second cars (Veyron, 911 Turbo, GT-R, etc...), but the slightly slower RWD vehicles (Viper, ZR1, 599, etc...) feel quicker and lighter on their feet. I prefer the Lamborghini 550-2 over the 570-4 for this very reason.

- Mike
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Agreed. Plus, there is a feeling (purely mental) that AWD vehicles "feel" slower from the driver's seat. I've driven a bunch of AWD sub-3 second cars (Veyron, 911 Turbo, GT-R, etc...), but the slightly slower RWD vehicles (Viper, ZR1, 599, etc...) feel quicker and lighter on their feet. I prefer the Lamborghini 550-2 over the 570-4 for this very reason.

- Mike
Yeah, I think that's what both me and my wife feel as well. Actually, she said after driving the S4 that while the speedo told her she was going fast, she didn't like the combination of "push" from the rears and "pull" from the fronts. She just likes the big shove from behind that a RWD car gives you. And sadly for her today, she's driving a Mazda rental to Sacramento.
mr_clueless commented:
October 16, 2012, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Never heard that before some clown who tested the ATS, but BMW manuals are quite different from say a Honda manual. They don't like to be rushed, you have to be more gentle than you would with a Honda. I much prefer BMW manuals after coming from an Integra GSR and Civic EX manual. The Hondas are much shorter and easier to shift fast, but don't have that pleasurable feel of a BMW manual. And no, I'm not gay.
Yeah, the honda Civic I owned (1998 EX) was butter smooth. The BMW is a tad notchier, but I actually prefer that. When I test drove an IS300 around the time I bought my E46, I didn't like that shifter at all.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
That's not really physically possible. An I-4 will always have secondary imbalance and non-overlapping power strokes, while an I-6 has perfect primary and secondary balance and overlapping power strokes. In terms of smoothness an I-6 is just inherently better than an I-4.
Technology is changing everyday. Look how far cars have come today. I'm sure at some point in time in the future, someone, somewhere fill figure something out.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:08 pm

This is the difference between all wheel drive and rear wheel drive.

Rain/Snow + RWD =

Rain/Snow + AWD =
elistan commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
328 is an awesome car. I wish there were some good roads in south Florida where i could appreciate the nibble feel of this car.
I've heard there's this little place called Sebring not far from there...
Chris90 commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
This is the difference between all wheel drive and rear wheel drive.

Rain/Snow + RWD =

Rain/Snow + AWD =
Probably depends on the car, our WRX was a total blast in the snow - instant controllable drifting, even at 5 mph. The BMW is fun too but not nearly as controllable, since there's no LSD.
justinnum1 commented:
October 16, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
I've heard there's this little place called Sebring not far from there...
2 hours away. But how often do people track there car? Probably less than 1% of total miles they put on their cars are on the track.
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
2 hours away. But how often do people track there car? Probably less than 1% of total miles they put on their cars are on the track.
+1

On a good track day, I get about 100 miles in on the circuit.

- Mike
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Probably depends on the car, our WRX was a total blast in the snow - instant controllable drifting, even at 5 mph. The BMW is fun too but not nearly as controllable, since there's no LSD.
That's why you get an M car.
Michael Schott commented:
October 16, 2012, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
I prefer RWD, but I really appreciate AWD.

Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.

Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.

My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.

- Mike
Great pic Mike. I love the attitude! By the way have you had a chance to test an ATS yet?
Emission commented:
October 16, 2012, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Great pic Mike. I love the attitude! By the way have you had a chance to test an ATS yet?
No, I've got a request in for one... I really need to see what all the hype is about, as I hear good things from my peers.

- Mike
Michael Schott commented:
October 16, 2012, 5:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
No, I've got a request in for one... I really need to see what all the hype is about, as I hear good things from my peers.

- Mike
Thanks Mike. Looking forward to your impressions.
Chris90 commented:
October 16, 2012, 5:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
That's why you get an M car.
I regret not putting an LSD in my ZHP when I bought it. It would seem kind of silly to spend $3k to do it now after owning it for 7 years.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I regret not putting an LSD in my ZHP when I bought it. It would seem kind of silly to spend $3k to do it now after owning it for 7 years.
Is it true that an LSD can actually be harmful to normal day to day drivers? I read an article somewhere that said BMW doesn't put an LSD on their normal cars because it changes the dynamics of the car, and can actually increase braking distance. I've tried to find it, with no luck.
cantona7 commented:
October 16, 2012, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I regret not putting an LSD in my ZHP when I bought it. It would seem kind of silly to spend $3k to do it now after owning it for 7 years.
Depends...if you keep it for another 7!
golovko commented:
October 16, 2012, 7:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
This is the difference between all wheel drive and rear wheel drive.

Rain/Snow + RWD =

Rain/Snow + AWD =
I've never had as much fun driving in snow then in my Evo IX MR or STI with snow tires.
Same goes with flying around VIR in the Evo.
Chris90 commented:
October 16, 2012, 8:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Is it true that an LSD can actually be harmful to normal day to day drivers? I read an article somewhere that said BMW doesn't put an LSD on their normal cars because it changes the dynamics of the car, and can actually increase braking distance. I've tried to find it, with no luck.
I don't think so, unless it's a very aggressive diff setup, then the car might be a little unstable braking (but with better turn-in). Diffs online has a wide range of LSDs, depending on whether it's for a track car or daily driver.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
October 16, 2012, 8:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by golovko View Post
I've never had as much fun driving in snow then in my Evo IX MR or STI with snow tires.
Same goes with flying around VIR in the Evo.
It's fun in and EVO or STI because it's controlled. In an RWD car, it's fun because it's plain scary.
Elk commented:
October 16, 2012, 8:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Is it true that an LSD can actually be harmful to normal day to day drivers? I read an article somewhere that said BMW doesn't put an LSD on their normal cars because it changes the dynamics of the car, and can actually increase braking distance.
An LSD is no problem on a street car. Many performance street cars have them. A race LSD can be a tad annoying on sharp corners, such as at a 90 degree intersection, as the inner rear wheel can be forced to turn with the outside wheel, causing a little bit of wheel hop. I personally find it amusing,

BMW's differential is electronic whereby it simply brakes the spinning wheel. It typically actually harms performance, but can improve stability. It is inexpensive to implement and maintenance requires only rear pad changes.

The only time I envision a conventional LSD increasing braking distance is if it is very tight and one is braking very hard in an extremely tight corner and the inner rear wheel is hopping instead of braking. Under these circumstances you have bigger issues to address however.
graphicguy commented:
October 17, 2012, 8:50 pm

Have both. Albeit, my 335i is an xDrive coupe of 2011 vintage, it does have the perf pack.

The S4 is new....,2013 with the trick diff. Actually, it's the GFs. We live together and regularly swap rides.

I've test driven a '12 335i (RWD), too.

You aren't going to like this, but there's not one area I prefer the 335i over the S4. I love my 335i. Wouldn't trade it for a new F30.

The S4 is the better car, however.....in some areas an insignificant amount. In other areas, a very significant amount.
g37to335i commented:
October 17, 2012, 9:59 pm

Well that's not good
Emission commented:
October 17, 2012, 10:40 pm

He's driving an E92 335i, not the new F30...

- Mike
g37to335i commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:52 am

Ok, I missed that part. Which areas is the S4 "significantly superior" though? It would help if we had more clarity on that. It's an interesting assessment from someone with access to both.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Ok, I missed that part. Which areas is the S4 "significantly superior" though? It would help if we had more clarity on that. It's an interesting assessment from someone with access to both.
He and his GF test drove new F30 335i and S4 back to back and both preferred the S4. The S4 typically has a much more sport-driver oriented setup since it comes stock with high performance tires, AWD, etc.

I have driven both back to back and thought, as he does, that the S4 simply feels faster and is easier to drive hard than the RWD 335i. However, I think that as an overall driving experience the F30 is more enjoyable, partially because it's a much more comfortable car to drive quickly than the S4, it's a newer quieter platform, it has better instrumentation, telematics, nav, etc.

Also, a well optioned S4 is quite expensive compared to a similar 335i.
sean10mm commented:
October 18, 2012, 12:02 pm

I hope these 335's being compared to the S4 didn't have the base BMW suspension and all-weather tires.

I'd expect an S4 with the sport diff to come on top in raw performance either way, but comparing a base suspension BMW to an Audi S car is probably not a valid comparison. And isn't the F30 the first 3 series where you can get an upgraded suspension option with xDrive?
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
I hope these 335's being compared to the S4 didn't have the base BMW suspension and all-weather tires.

I'd expect an S4 with the sport diff to come on top in raw performance either way, but comparing a base suspension BMW to an Audi S car is probably not a valid comparison. And isn't the F30 the first 3 series where you can get an upgraded suspension option with xDrive?
I drove a 2012 Sport line 335i RWD (I'll always remember it because it was red) and it had the performance tires. The 335i had sport auto transmission.

The S4 was a 2012 as well. The S4 had the DSG transmission.

Honestly it wasn't a contest. These are both VERY capable and VERY fun to drive cars, but the S4 is much easier, in stock form with similar options to the 335i to push hard and drive well. AWD helps the car launch better and lets it blast out of corners with no drama.

Either one of these are an awesome choice and the 335i is a much better choice as an all around daily driver, since you can put it in comfort and it will be a much more pleasant ride than the S4 when doing boring stuff, like commuting.
windsor027 commented:
October 18, 2012, 1:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I drove a 2012 Sport line 335i RWD (I'll always remember it because it was red) and it had the performance tires. The 335i had sport auto transmission.

The S4 was a 2012 as well. The S4 had the DSG transmission.

Honestly it wasn't a contest. These are both VERY capable and VERY fun to drive cars, but the S4 is much easier, in stock form with similar options to the 335i to push hard and drive well. AWD helps the car launch better and lets it blast out of corners with no drama.

Either one of these are an awesome choice and the 335i is a much better choice as an all around daily driver, since you can put it in comfort and it will be a much more pleasant ride than the S4 when doing boring stuff, like commuting.
VOIP you are wrong about this. You can't put the sport in comfort and it just becomes a comfortable car. to get this, you need the adaptive suspension. the setting in a non adaptive suspension F30 only change response and stiffens of steering not the ride. Thats why i have been saying adaptive suspension is a must.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 1:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
VOIP you are wrong about this. You can't put the sport in comfort and it just becomes a comfortable car. to get this, you need the adaptive suspension. the setting in a non adaptive suspension F30 only change response and stiffens of steering not the ride. Thats why i have been saying adaptive suspension is a must.
It's not a must. I never want a soft ride and I would be forced to have a soft ride in Eco mode with dhp
golovko commented:
October 18, 2012, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
It's not a must. I never want a soft ride and I would be forced to have a soft ride in Eco mode with dhp
The ride is plenty soft with the sport suspension coming from an Evo. Maybe when I get used to this suspension I'll get the adaptive suspension next time around. Its the perfect balance as is in my opinion.
windsor027 commented:
October 18, 2012, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
It's not a must. I never want a soft ride and I would be forced to have a soft ride in Eco mode with dhp
or in comfort that is true. However i believe in sport the ride is even stiffer and yet more compiant over bumps. In all modes the car also has zero body lean. That is also huge if you were looking for a luxury or a modern line. if you went for the sport then I agree no body lean with the standard sport suspension.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
or in comfort that is true. However i believe in sport the ride is even stiffer and yet more compiant over bumps. In all modes the car also has zero body lean. That is also huge if you were looking for a luxury or a modern line. if you went for the sport then I agree no body lean with the standard sport suspension.
yea, if you have base, luxury, or modern then i think dynamic handing is a must
sean10mm commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
yea, if you have base, luxury, or modern then i think dynamic handing is a must
Or any xDrive, since they don't get the sport suspension on the Sport or M Sport.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
Or any xDrive, since they don't get the sport suspension on the Sport or M Sport.
yep, good point

personally, i have always been a big fan of bmw passive sport suspensions. i think they strik a great balance between comfort and sport.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:03 pm

All of the above are true and the $1000 adaptive suspension and adjustable steering rack options should honestly be no brainers... on the S4 the adaptive suspension is something like $2800.

Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
sean10mm commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
All of the above are true and the $1000 adaptive suspension and adjustable steering rack options should honestly be no brainers... on the S4 the adaptive suspension is something like $2800.

Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
In my limited experience cross-shopping the real-world pricing for the S4 doesn't really line up with the 335i though. I 100% agree that you're getting more performance, but you're also paying more real $$$ to get it. If you can get them at equal cost I agree the S4 is a superior buy as a performance car (though probably not a superior daily driver.)

It's funny how reasonable an option package ZDH is. Going from a G37 to G37 Sport is like $5,000. Adding the (cosmetic-only) sport package to a G37 is $2,000. The (cosmetic only) sport package on a M-B C350 is $2,500. BMW gives you adaptive dampers and sport steering on any model for $1,000.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
In my limited experience cross-shopping the real-world pricing for the S4 doesn't really line up with the 335i though. I 100% agree that you're getting more performance, but you're also paying more real $$$ to get it. If you can get them at equal cost I agree the S4 is a superior buy as a performance car (though probably not a superior daily driver.)

It's funny how reasonable an option package ZDH is. Going from a G37 to G37 Sport is like $5,000. Adding the (cosmetic-only) sport package to a G37 is $2,000. The (cosmetic only) sport package on a M-B C350 is $2,500. BMW gives you adaptive dampers and sport steering on any model for $1,000.
Yes, it is a super bargain.

In my case, an S4 would have been within $1500 of the 335xi because I get pretty hefty savings on Audi (flat employee discount plus big owner incentives)... however, in a lease the 335 or 328 would be a little less expensive due to lower MF and higher residual of the F30.

In any event, I agree that as an all around super fun daily driver the F30 is better than the A4/S4 at this time. We'll see what Audi comes up with for the new model in another 2 yrs.
windsor027 commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
yea, if you have base, luxury, or modern then i think dynamic handing is a must

Exactly totaly agree. But honestly even in Sportline we are not talking huge money here. 1k I would take that over leather or PDC or HK for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
All of the above are true and the $1000 adaptive suspension and adjustable steering rack options should honestly be no brainers... on the S4 the adaptive suspension is something like $2800.

Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
you and i agree to disagree on this. When I test drove the S4, it felt nose heavy to me. Yes it didn't have the trick differental so mabye that is Audi's solution but without it I found the F30 more neutral, thus more fun for the driver. Also I didn't like Audi's 6-MT as much I like BMW's maybe because I am more use to it.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 2:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Exactly totaly agree. But honestly even in Sportline we are not talking huge money here. 1k I would take that over leather or PDC or HK for example.
Some people might. personally, i dont like that you cant have it in the sport suspension all the time in every mode.
The X Men commented:
October 18, 2012, 3:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
on the S4 the adaptive suspension is something like $2800.
WRONG!!! I love giving voip-ninja a taste of his own medicine The Audi Adaptive Damping Suspension MSRP for $1250.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 4:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
WRONG!!! I love giving voip-ninja a taste of his own medicine The Audi Adaptive Damping Suspension MSRP for $1250.
Touché good sir.
The X Men commented:
October 18, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Touché good sir.
Just messing with you voip-ninja You are so rarely wrong that I had to seize the opportunity
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 4:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Just messing with you voip-ninja You are so rarely wrong that I had to seize the opportunity
graphicguy commented:
October 18, 2012, 5:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Ok, I missed that part. Which areas is the S4 "significantly superior" though? It would help if we had more clarity on that. It's an interesting assessment from someone with access to both.
Ninja and I are pretty much in agreement.

First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.

S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......

-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)

Again, I love my 335i.

I prefer the S4.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 5:31 pm

I would only prefer the S4 if it was a "fun" "weekend" car that I could also take to track days. I think the F30 is a far better daily driver. The F30 has better tech, very good seats (I might even argue they are a touch better than the S4 seats because of the adjustable thigh bolsters and three position headrest) and is probably about 9/10 as good as the S4 for spirited driving.

In any event, I chose the BMW this go around, we'll see what Audi brings to the table next time.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 5:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post
Ninja and I are pretty much in agreement.

First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.

S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......

-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)

Again, I love my 335i.

I prefer the S4.
i drove an s4 and the trans is not better. it might be a DSG but it wasnt as responsive as the ZFsport. seats were nice but no nicer than the bmw sport seats. handling was negated by extra weight over the front and the fact the car loves to understeer. steering was about the same.
g37to335i commented:
October 18, 2012, 5:48 pm

This is the problem I have with these advantages, it seems they are all subjective except for the 0-60. With the power pack this should take care of that. Even without the power pack the 335i is fast enough. The S4 does look nice in their equivalent of Estoril Blue though.

I have spent some time on audizine and I like the crowd there. They are down to earth, however the majority of them seem to be previous Golf/VW/Audi owners, it seems the S4 has not had a broader appeal. The guys they do love to mod their cars though.
windsor027 commented:
October 18, 2012, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post
Ninja and I are pretty much in agreement.

First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.

S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......

-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)

Again, I love my 335i.

I prefer the S4.
Better steering? you are dreaming. In sport mode the F30 has a very direct steering feel.
Better seats? Obviously you have not tried the Sportline seats
Better interior? Not IMO and many others including most automotive media, but hey that is subjective isn't it.
Better ride? I didn't drive an S4 with the automatic damping suspension so I can't say if its better than the F30's DHP....But my F30 is much better than the S4 i test drove with the standard suspension. I will give the S4 the win here if compared with the luxury F30
Better trans? it could be since you guys like automatics I can't say since I didn't drive an DSG S4. But 6-MT no way. BMW is more direct, and less notchy than the S4. Plus I love the 2nd gear in the 335i. Its just perfect for downshifting and entering slow corners.

Bottom line I could have had any car in the 45K to 65K range for a daily driver and i went with the 335i because it made a better impression on me. You S4 lovers are going to kill me for this, but I liked the G37 Sport sedan 6-MT better than the Audi. At least it gave you some drama and fun driving it.

VOIP are you kidding me when you saying you want an AWD car for a fun weekend/track car? Sorry a neutral RWD with the ability to induce 4 wheel drifts anytime is what I have in mind for a fun track car. And that ain't the S4 dude.
voip-ninja commented:
October 18, 2012, 9:01 pm

I have two buddies who track their S4s and RS4s and they have no complaints and they aren't giving up much in lap times to "faster" RWD Porsches. I really had to resist caving in and getting an S4 myself.
justinnum1 commented:
October 18, 2012, 9:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I have two buddies who track their S4s and RS4s and they have no complaints and they aren't giving up much in lap times to "faster" RWD Porsches. I really had to resist caving in and getting an S4 myself.
That depends a lot on who the driver is.
graphicguy commented:
October 18, 2012, 9:13 pm

Well.....believe what you will. I drive both....regularly. That said, both are fine cars.
Chris90 commented:
October 18, 2012, 9:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I have two buddies who track their S4s and RS4s and they have no complaints and they aren't giving up much in lap times to "faster" RWD Porsches. I really had to resist caving in and getting an S4 myself.
I used to go to track days with two guys who had S4s (the old twin-turbo V6), but they were modified. Very neutral, very fast and a lot of fun.

The 335i really needs a diff to be a track car, imo.
g37to335i commented:
October 18, 2012, 10:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post
Well.....believe what you will. I drive both....regularly. That said, both are fine cars.
That's why your opinion matters. It's unfortunate you say what I do not want to hear

After your post I am going to test drive it again before picking up the 335. I test drove it twice, the first time I was overwhelmed with how well it drove. The second time not so much. I will admit that with the fine nappa leather seats, there are very few interiors that smell as well south of $65,000
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 1:07 am

We have a 2011 Audi S4 with a DCT, a 2011.5 M3 sedan MT, and a 2011 335is convertible with a DCT.

They are all three very fine cars.

I prefer the S4 for highway trips as I find it more comfortable for me at 6'4". It is also very planted on the highway. The seating is very comfortable and has never given me a pain in my side when taking a trip like both of the BMWs have. I also think the acceleration is much smoother with the supercharger versus the turbos in the 335is - there is no choppy start-ups or slight hesitation when getting on it. The DCT functions faster and smoother than the DCT in my 335is. The GPS/entertainment center is easier and more straight forward to operate than the BMW iDrive. The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle. There is a spare tire stored in the trunk and the car does not have run flat tires (also comes with a jack and tool kit). The trunk storage is more useful. Our S4 has all performance options and the car really wakes up in "Dynamic Mode" - the steering becomes more precise, the accelerator is more active, the handling is more planted and agressive, etc. The drink holders are better in the front and the rear. I prefer the quality of the leather better than the 335is (our M3 has the upgraded leather which is very nice indeed). I prefer that you actually move the shifter into the various drive positions as opposed to the very frustrating BMW shifter (automatic transmissions). The rear has broader view. The back-up camera and on-screen view is really excellent, and much better and more useful than the one in our M3. I like the S4 upgraded 19" wheels better than any of the BMW wheels. Each Fall season, Audi offers a wheel/snow tire package that is/was 1/2 the cost as compared to BMW (BMW offered no winter package deals, at least in 2011.) and, you can select from actual Made in Germany S4 wheel options and not some cheaper crappy looking wheels. The snow tires we have are Michelins.

The S4 has better stopping power as compared to my 335is. The S4 has three suspension adjustments as compared to my 335is that has no selections. I also like the change lanes warning system that was not offered by BMW. The S4 owners manual fits easily into the glove compartment and does not fit in either of the BMWs.

I do not like the electronic parking brake in the S4 and prefer the manual hand parking brake in the 335is and M3. I also don't like how much dust the brakes throw off and gets all over the wheels and sides/rear of car.

And, IMO, if there was never an article saying that the Audi's power is front wheel biased, I doubt that most drivers/if anyone who is not a race car driver would ever really notice it.
cantona7 commented:
October 19, 2012, 1:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
And, IMO, if there was never an article saying that the Audi's power is front wheel biased, I doubt that most drivers/if anyone who is not a race car driver would ever really notice it.
I believe that the AWD in the S4 is actually biased to the rear tires. And totally agree that it feels more planted on the highway than the F30 335. There are a lot of "objective" reasons that the S4 is better. You could say all the reasons that my wife and I prefer the F30 are purely subjective. That's fine with us. I do really appreciate all the discussion that this thread has generated!

All that said, we both actually still prefer the feel of the 328i. I will add that since this would be our second, more practical car, it would likely never see track time. That's what our M3 is for. Incidentally, I find the 328i a closer cousin to our M3 than the 335i in every instance other than a straight line.
Emission commented:
October 19, 2012, 2:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
I believe that the AWD in the S4 is actually biased to the rear tires. And totally agree that it feels more planted on the highway than the F30 335. There are a lot of "objective" reasons that the S4 is better. You could say all the reasons that my wife and I prefer the F30 are purely subjective. That's fine with us. I do really appreciate all the discussion that this thread has generated!

All that said, we both actually still prefer the feel of the 328i. I will add that since this would be our second, more practical car, it would likely never see track time. That's what our M3 is for. Incidentally, I find the 328i a closer cousin to our M3 than the 335i in every instance other than a straight line.
40:60 split in favor of the rear wheels on dry level ground.

Ask a B8 A4 owner how they like changing rear brake pads — a laptop and a proprietary Audi cable are required! Ask me how I know (but I borrowed one and still did them myself).

- Mike
windsor027 commented:
October 19, 2012, 7:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
I have two buddies who track their S4s and RS4s and they have no complaints and they aren't giving up much in lap times to "faster" RWD Porsches. I really had to resist caving in and getting an S4 myself.

Well VOIP maybe you should have. obviously price was not an issue so the question you need to ask yourself why didn't you. I have alreay stated my reason why I didn't and it had nothing to do with looks or price.
sean10mm commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Well VOIP maybe you should have. obviously price was not an issue so the question you need to ask yourself why didn't you. I have alreay stated my reason why I didn't and it had nothing to do with looks or price.
He explained why already. He thought the F30 was a better daily driver than the S4 and that mattered to him more than the performance difference.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
The X Men commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Well VOIP maybe you should have. obviously price was not an issue so the question you need to ask yourself why didn't you. I have alreay stated my reason why I didn't and it had nothing to do with looks or price.
But price is an issue, Audi dealers rarely have deep discount for the S cars. They are in limited supply first of all and the demand is very high. One should expect to pay close to MSRP on a S4.
windsor027 commented:
October 19, 2012, 9:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
He explained why already. He thought the F30 was a better daily driver than the S4 and that mattered to him more than the performance difference.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
thank you I stand correct then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
But price is an issue, Audi dealers rarely have deep discount for the S cars. They are in limited supply first of all and the demand is very high. One should expect to pay close to MSRP on a S4.
I could have gotten an Audi for about 678 per month lease, which is 90 dollars more per month i am paying now. I can't imagine anyone getting into this price car catagory and not being able to afford an extra 100 dollars per month.
graphicguy commented:
October 19, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
That's why your opinion matters. It's unfortunate you say what I do not want to hear

After your post I am going to test drive it again before picking up the 335. I test drove it twice, the first time I was overwhelmed with how well it drove. The second time not so much. I will admit that with the fine nappa leather seats, there are very few interiors that smell as well south of $65,000
Don't want to offend. That's certainly not my intent. As I mentioned, I still love my 3 series. I do believe F30s are a bit "softer" than the Es. And, the S4 is more to my liking for all the reasons I gave previously.

My GF (with my sterling negotiation help) got her (our) '13 S4 for about $3,500 off MSRP. But, I hear you. Most dealers won't budge from MSRP (or maybe offer only a nominal discount) because the S series of cars have limited availability. We tried 4 different dealers and had to drive 5 hours to Chicago to get the deal we got.

Some consider that a benefit. Some don't.

Fact is, both the S4s and the BMWs are at the pinnacle of the luxury sports sedan market. Everybody else is an "also ran".

As a side note, the GF also drove a MB C350 4 matic coupe. I thought she was going to orgasm when we pulled up to the Benz dealer and saw it sitting in the showroom. She loved the styling. It was a pretty car. But, so is the S4 and the BMW.

Then, we drove it. Are you kidding me? It was cramped, slow, and not comfortable, at all. It handled "OK", but that's as far as I'd take it. For that kind of money (about the same as an S4 or 335i), I thought it was a rip off.
mr_clueless commented:
October 19, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I prefer the S4 for highway trips as I find it more comfortable for me at 6'4". It is also very planted on the highway. The seating is very comfortable and has never given me a pain in my side when taking a trip like both of the BMWs have.
Hate it when I see things like this! Makes me all the more indecisive, especially since I have no way to validate this (i.e. take a long drive)...heck can't even find an S4 on my local dealer's lot.
mr_clueless commented:
October 19, 2012, 10:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
We have a 2011 Audi S4 with a DCT, a 2011.5 M3 sedan MT, and a 2011 335is convertible with a DCT.

They are all three very fine cars.

I prefer the S4 for highway trips as I find it more comfortable for me at 6'4". It is also very planted on the highway. The seating is very comfortable and has never given me a pain in my side when taking a trip like both of the BMWs have. I also think the acceleration is much smoother with the supercharger versus the turbos in the 335is - there is no choppy start-ups or slight hesitation when getting on it. The DCT functions faster and smoother than the DCT in my 335is. The GPS/entertainment center is easier and more straight forward to operate than the BMW iDrive. The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle. There is a spare tire stored in the trunk and the car does not have run flat tires (also comes with a jack and tool kit). The trunk storage is more useful. Our S4 has all performance options and the car really wakes up in "Dynamic Mode" - the steering becomes more precise, the accelerator is more active, the handling is more planted and agressive, etc. The drink holders are better in the front and the rear. I prefer the quality of the leather better than the 335is (our M3 has the upgraded leather which is very nice indeed). I prefer that you actually move the shifter into the various drive positions as opposed to the very frustrating BMW shifter (automatic transmissions). The rear has broader view. The back-up camera and on-screen view is really excellent, and much better and more useful than the one in our M3. I like the S4 upgraded 19" wheels better than any of the BMW wheels. Each Fall season, Audi offers a wheel/snow tire package that is/was 1/2 the cost as compared to BMW (BMW offered no winter package deals, at least in 2011.) and, you can select from actual Made in Germany S4 wheel options and not some cheaper crappy looking wheels. The snow tires we have are Michelins.

The S4 has better stopping power as compared to my 335is. The S4 has three suspension adjustments as compared to my 335is that has no selections. I also like the change lanes warning system that was not offered by BMW. The S4 owners manual fits easily into the glove compartment and does not fit in either of the BMWs.

I do not like the electronic parking brake in the S4 and prefer the manual hand parking brake in the 335is and M3. I also don't like how much dust the brakes throw off and gets all over the wheels and sides/rear of car.

And, IMO, if there was never an article saying that the Audi's power is front wheel biased, I doubt that most drivers/if anyone who is not a race car driver would ever really notice it.
Can you comment on maintenance costs of one vs the other?
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 10:49 am

All this is fair but the f30 fixed some of the shortfalls above. The back up camera for example, I have a 2011 X5 and the back up camera on that is better than Audi's. it's simply one of the best in the business and this is the same one on the F30s. The N55 paired with the ZF as in my X5 and in the F30 works very well. Motortrend exclaimed how the F30 they tested was just as fast as the 335is.

Just wanted to point this out as examples of how the F30 improved some of the shortfalls as noted above
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 10:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post
Don't want to offend. That's certainly not my intent. As I mentioned, I still love my 3 series. I do believe F30s are a bit "softer" than the Es. And, the S4 is more to my liking for all the reasons I gave previously.

My GF (with my sterling negotiation help) got her (our) '13 S4 for about $3,500 off MSRP. But, I hear you. Most dealers won't budge from MSRP (or maybe offer only a nominal discount) because the S series of cars have limited availability. We tried 4 different dealers and had to drive 5 hours to Chicago to get the deal we got.

Some consider that a benefit. Some don't.

Fact is, both the S4s and the BMWs are at the pinnacle of the luxury sports sedan market. Everybody else is an "also ran".

As a side note, the GF also drove a MB C350 4 matic coupe. I thought she was going to orgasm when we pulled up to the Benz dealer and saw it sitting in the showroom. She loved the styling. It was a pretty car. But, so is the S4 and the BMW.

Then, we drove it. Are you kidding me? It was cramped, slow, and not comfortable, at all. It handled "OK", but that's as far as I'd take it. For that kind of money (about the same as an S4 or 335i), I thought it was a rip off.
Not offended at all and agree the C350 sucks
Emission commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Can you comment on maintenance costs of one vs the other?
BMW = Free
Audi = $$$

However, all automakers seem to be leaning towards free maintenance programs...

- Mike
Jamesonsviggen commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Not offended at all and agree the C350 sucks
To be a magazine racer, note the C350 lines up stat for stat with the N20 328. That's sad for both the C350 and C250.
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
All this is fair but the f30 fixed some of the shortfalls above. The back up camera for example, I have a 2011 X5 and the back up camera on that is better than Audi's. it's simply one of the best in the business and this is the same one on the F30s. The N55 paired with the ZF as in my X5 and in the F30 works very well. Motortrend exclaimed how the F30 they tested was just as fast as the 335is.

Just wanted to point this out as examples of how the F30 improved some of the shortfalls as noted above
There is no way that the F30 328i is "just as fast" as my 335is. Please provide the link to the story.

I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
Emission commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
There is no way that the F30 328i is "just as fast" as my 335is. Please provide the link to the story.

I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
N55 F30.

- Mike
mr_clueless commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
BMW = Free
Audi = $$$

However, all automakers seem to be leaning towards free maintenance programs...

- Mike
Trying to get an idea for what would be the expected maintenance costs, both from 0-50K, and 50K-100K. I bought the extended maintenance on my E46 so I was covered to 100K, but beyond 100K it's been quite a beast to maintain and it's just the base model. I hear most people get scared to own an S4 out of warranty.
Emission commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Trying to get an idea for what would be the expected maintenance costs, both from 0-50K, and 50K-100K. I bought the extended maintenance on my E46 so I was covered to 100K, but beyond 100K it's been quite a beast to maintain and it's just the base model. I hear most people get scared to own an S4 out of warranty.
IMHO, I wouldn't own either a BMW or Audi out of warranty.

Plus, I would never buy a vehicle based on maintenance costs. Buy the one you enjoy more, or the one that better fits your lifestyle.

- Mike
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Can you comment on maintenance costs of one vs the other?
BMW has free maintenance for the first 4 years which gives me one free oil change per year..

Our Audi dealer gave us the first oil change and service for free at 1,500 miles. We own the car and I'm old school on oil changes. This car now has about 19,800 miles on it in 26 months. I have paid for three additional oil changes and for the 15,000 mile service (this service with an oil change was about $600.)
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:29 am

They tested the 335i
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
There is no way that the F30 328i is "just as fast" as my 335is. Please provide the link to the story.

I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
They tested the 335i, I am using the bimmerfest app but if you go to the website and search 335i you should find it.

As for the back up camera, once paired with the park distance control, it's top notch.
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
IMHO, I wouldn't own either a BMW or Audi out of warranty.

Plus, I would never buy a vehicle based on maintenance costs. Buy the one you enjoy more, or the one that better fits your lifestyle.

- Mike
I have an extended warranty on all of our cars because we keep them well past their original warranties. As a footnote, I was pleasantly surprised that I was recently able to negotiate a Porsche sponsored extended 3 year 100,000 mile warranty for my new 2012 Porsche 911 GTS cab for $2,100. That was a no brainer to buy as far as I'm concerned.

But, it depends on how well you maintain a car and how many miles you drive on an annual basis as to whether you keep a car beyond the warranty period or not. We have multiple cars and don't put many miles on most of them. I also maintain them extremely well. Plus, cars today cost big money. How much would maintenance and repairs have to cost annually before it makes the car not worth owning beyond the warranty? I'm thinking that these out-of-pocket costs are less than the depreciation hit we take everytime we drive off the lot with a new car.
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
They tested the 335i, I am using the bimmerfest app but if you go to the website and search 335i you should find it.

As for the back up camera, once paired with the park distance control, it's top notch.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/

The performance numbers are impressive for the new 335i. But, my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system. I also wonder if the new automatic transmission does the rev matching on down shifts like the DCT transmission in my 335is? Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge as well as other performance options not available on the 335i.
justinnum1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/

The performance numbers are impressive for the new 335i. But, my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system. I also wonder if the new automatic transmission does the rev matching on down shifts like the DCT transmission in my 335is? Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge as well as other performance options not available on the 335i.
Thats why you get the performance exhaust

Also, you should give the new zf8 sport, its really amazing

as for exclusive badges,

Other than that, sounds like your trying to show off here lol
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Thats why you get the performance exhaust

Also, you should give the new zf8 sport, its really amazing

as for exclusive badges,

Other than that, sounds like your trying to show off here lol
Show off?
justinnum1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Show off?
Thats my interpretation.

"my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system."
"Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge"

beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Thats my interpretation.

"my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system."
"Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge"

I was trying to have a bit of humor, as well as offer some insight in my previous posts, but you are entitled to your impression. It was not my intention to "show off".

But, the exhaust system in the 335is does sound really cool!
justinnum1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I was trying to have a bit of humor, as well as offer some insight in my previous posts, but you are entitled to your impression. It was not my intention to "show off".
My bad then. Hard to decipher humor sometimes on the internet, for me at least lol.
Was sounding like bj logged in under your user name for that post

g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:28 pm

Whether its showing off or not it does not matter. My take is the F30 with the m sport package is still the one to beat, once equipped with the power pack (comes with the exhaust too right?) it should be right there with the 335is. It's got the exclusive m badges too right
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Whether its showing off or not it does not matter. My take is the F30 with the m sport package is still the one to beat, once equipped with the power pack (comes with the exhaust too right?) it should be right there with the 335is. It's got the exclusive m badges too right
The exhaust system on the 335is was developed for the 335is. I was not aware that the new 335i will have a similar exhaust? Is the power pack you intend to install void the BMW warranty? The m Sport is an option package. The 335is is a special model.
justinnum1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The exhaust system on the 335is was developed for the 335is. I was not aware that the new 335i will have a similar exhaust? Is the power pack you intend to install void the BMW warranty?
the powerpack is offered by BMW, its like 1200 and gives you 30 more horse power and 30 more pound of torque, it does not come with a new exhuast but it does make the current exhuast sound better. does not void warranty

i would recommend the m performance exhuast for people who want a better exhuast. port installed
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:50 pm

Well the 335is looks sweet though. I wonder if the new coupes will look as good as the E92s
beden1 commented:
October 19, 2012, 12:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Well the 335is looks sweet though. I wonder if the new coupes will look as good as the E92s
That's purely subjective. The only thing that I will say about it is that I have no desire whatsoever to trade my car for a new 335i. I really like the 335is and feel it is a definite keeper.
g37to335i commented:
October 19, 2012, 1:21 pm

Agreed, they did a good job with that one, no doubt
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 7:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantona7 View Post
All that eye rolling must be affecting how you see the sequence of events that I've related.

Read my review—I drove the S4 before the 335. The S4 only felt "wrong" to me AFTER I got in the 335.
Yes, after you got in the 335, but before you drove, which was my whole point. I'll spare you the rolling eyes.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 7:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by T111 View Post
Your basing luxury off being able to get wood or not? Seems a little ridiculous.....
No, just in the sense of old school traditional luxury ambiance. The S4 interior is of the same quality, but it gives a different vibe. The 3-series line are similar. Quality is the same, but each line gives you a different atmosphere.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 7:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cchrisv View Post
My main love with the S4 was the transmission. The Audi manual just felt better compared to the BMW shifter.
Can you comment on the differences? I am particularly interested in pedal placement. Some cars have the pedal a little too much to the right/center.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 7:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Yeah, I've seen the stick shake when the cars idling, but BMW's I6 has always been it's trademark. It's what BMW does. I'm sure with time, this four banger(if kept in production) will work it's way to be as smooth as the I6 is today.
I6's is what BMW has been doing lately in the US. It was too long ago that 318's were as common as 325's. So we are now basically getting a turbo-charged version of the 318.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
In my limited experience cross-shopping the real-world pricing for the S4 doesn't really line up with the 335i though. I 100% agree that you're getting more performance, but you're also paying more real $$$ to get it.....
If you are mostly after the performance aspect of the S4, a nicely equipped P+ S4 comes in slightly under $50K, which is less than what some folks are paying here for seriously-optioned 328's.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
We have a 2011 Audi S4 with a DCT, a 2011.5 M3 sedan MT, and a 2011 335is convertible with a DCT.

[s4]...The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle.
I think most folks are talking about the F30 3-series, not the E9x. I wonder though whether your comment about the back seat still holds true or has the F30 back seat grown enough to be comparable or even bigger than the one in the S4.
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
40:60 split in favor of the rear wheels on dry level ground.

Ask a B8 A4 owner how they like changing rear brake pads — a laptop and a proprietary Audi cable are required! Ask me how I know (but I borrowed one and still did them myself).
But with that cable you can change various settings, such as steering assist
bmw_or_audi commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
That's not really physically possible. An I-4 will always have secondary imbalance and non-overlapping power strokes, while an I-6 has perfect primary and secondary balance and overlapping power strokes. In terms of smoothness an I-6 is just inherently better than an I-4.
Audi'2 2.0T has counter-balancing shafts, but I don't know to what extent they help.
voip-ninja commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think most folks are talking about the F30 3-series, not the E9x. I wonder though whether your comment about the back seat still holds true or has the F30 back seat grown enough to be comparable or even bigger than the one in the S4.
The F30 has substantially more rear seat room than the B8 chassis A4/S4.
mr_clueless commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I6's is what BMW has been doing lately in the US. It was too long ago that 318's were as common as 325's. So we are now basically getting a turbo-charged version of the 318.
Most E36's that I seem to see on the road nowadays are either 325i's or M3's. I don't think I've seen many 318i's. From a longevity standpoint, will the 335i be better? As a highway cruiser, would it be better than the 328i?
Emission commented:
October 19, 2012, 8:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But with that cable you can change various settings, such as steering assist
My A4's power steering pump is already undersized (I need to take it in and get it replaced under the recall). A sore subject.

I cursed Audi for weeks regarding my rear brakes.

- Mike