Driven Back-to-Back: 335i M-Sport vs Audi S4
Our test-driving adventures continue. My wife and I had previously driven a 328i M-Sport 6MT and a 335i Lux Line. From that drive, we preferred the 328i but also wanted to find at least a 335i in Sport Line or M-Sport to drive. We also wanted to do our due diligence and give the 2013 S4 a shot. That's exactly what we did today. Up first was the S4...
2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.
2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.
Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.
Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.
2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.
Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.
Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
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October 14, 2012, 10:58 pm
Totally agree. Also, the Stronic is a DSG.
October 14, 2012, 10:59 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:02 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:05 pm
Hey, I see you have the 328i Sport line. After all these drives, we're still leaning toward the 328i. Would love to get your thoughts, as you've had the 328 for a while, right?
October 14, 2012, 11:17 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:21 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:37 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:40 pm
October 14, 2012, 11:54 pm
October 15, 2012, 12:41 am
2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.
2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.
Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.
Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
October 15, 2012, 1:00 am
Most people who feel this way is because they got a really good deal on the BMW, purchased one, and now justifying their choice.
October 15, 2012, 1:05 am
October 15, 2012, 1:10 am
October 15, 2012, 1:11 am
October 15, 2012, 1:46 am
The ZF 8 speed feels like a dual clutch. Shifts are butter smooth and downshifts happe in no time at all. The gearbox just grabs gears on the fly.
October 15, 2012, 5:30 am
I am not sure what you test drove. The S4 comes only in two transmission configurations: 6 speed manual and 7 speed S tronic DSG. In other words, the "S tronic" on the S4 is the DSG. How did you exactly feel that the DSG was slower?
2013 Audi S4
The car we drove was equipped with the S-Tronic autobox. Sadly, not MTs or DSG cars at our local dealer. The car was driven in Dynamic and Auto modes. In terms of the drive itself, I thought the autobox was actually quite good. Not as quick as the BMW's, but really nothing that called attention to itself. Car felt tight and handled nicely. The S4 seats were very nice, about the same as the BMW's sport seats. Interior design was also pretty nice...nothing really to complain about. In fact, we thought it was nicer than the one in the A6 3.0T that we were ferried around in. That was about it for the S4. My overall impression was that it's a fast, competent car, but did nothing for me on an emotional level. Nothing that made me feel I really needed to have this car. The supercharged V6 is so quiet as to be essentially character-less. Also, I was bothered by some creaking coming from the passenger side window when going over bumps around rough city roads. I'm not a huge stickler for creaks and rattles (I own an E46 M3 for crying out loud) but this was really annoying in a brand new car that cost $59K+.
2013 335i M-Sport
We would've loved to have found a 6MT to drive, but no such luck. The good news for us was that this car was optioned exactly the same way that the 328i we drove a couple of weekends back. Only difference was in the transmissions; even the colors were the same (EBII). We got into the 335i about 15 mins after driving the S4, so the comparison was really, really obvious. The 335i just felt right—and that was before even starting the car. I guess we're just BMW people. But even accounting for that, the interior just looks and feels a notch up from the Audi's. Surprising for me, because I'd always thought very highly of Audi interiors. On paper, the S4 is faster. In real life, we felt the 335i gave nothing up to the S4. We drove the 335i in Sport mode at the request of our dealer—some customer recently drove an M5 in Sport+, lost control and totalled the car. The 335i M-Sport also came with DHP and that made it a lot more fun versus the 335i Lux that we drove before--much sharper response. The N55 also sounded much nicer to me than the V6 in the S4. The 335i also seemed way more dynamic feeling than the S4. Maybe it's the character of the twin turbos versus the supercharger? Either way, the 335i definitely got my pulse moving. Can't say the same for the S4.
Incidentally, the S4 also comes with electric steering now. Big mistake if you ask me. That car is only drivable in Dynamic—Auto and Comfort are just terribly light or terribly variable. Ugh. The steering wheel in the S4 also felt much less nice to handle versus the one in the 335i. That said, I wish the BMW could default to last user setting instead of Comfort, but I've been wishing for this for a very long time. Someday.
Apples to apples, I just can't imagine why anyone would pick the S4 over the 335i. Unless you shop for a car based only on specs, the S4 just doesn't make sense to me. It's less inspiring to drive, costs more (the one we drove came in about $1000 more than the 335i) and consumes more gas. I guess Audi is just going to suck it up until the next generation S4 comes out. My wife—whose car this or the F30 would be—declared herself a non-Audi person after these drives. Her words: "The S4 is so far off the table, it's crashed and burning on the floor, in a corner."
October 15, 2012, 7:00 am
October 15, 2012, 7:08 am
I also thought the S4 was great, but if you look at the 2012s they already look ancient. The same cant be said about the E9xs. Also the power pack is on its way which should address the 0.2s difference in acceleration. The x drive is already faster though based on BMWs website.
October 15, 2012, 8:36 am
October 15, 2012, 8:38 am
October 15, 2012, 10:38 am
The S4 is clearly better on paper than the 335i in most respects, but it's also priced quite a bit higher. Not only is the MSRP higher, all else being equal, but the real-world pricing is actually worse than the MSRP difference suggests. It's kind of funny talking about "value" in cars you can easily option over $50,000, but the markup is still non-trivial.
And while the S4 has more power, it's also something like 300lbs heavier when comparing 6MT models. Even if you add xdrive to the BMW it's still about 150 pounds lighter. The S4 is also more nose-heavy by far, and again even the xdrive BMW is closer to 50/50 than the S4. Apparently the sport diff option on the S4 negates the nose-heavy feel pretty well, but again you're adding cost compared to the 335i.
With all the performance options (DSG, adaptive suspension, sport diff) I'd expect the S4 to edge the 335i on the track...but you've also pushed the sticker price into a different class at that point, and it's an open question if you're getting enough in relation to what you're paying.
October 15, 2012, 11:46 am
And while the S4 has more power, it's also something like 300lbs heavier when comparing 6MT models. Even if you add xdrive to the BMW it's still about 150 pounds lighter. The S4 is also more nose-heavy by far, and again even the xdrive BMW is closer to 50/50 than the S4. Apparently the sport diff option on the S4 negates the nose-heavy feel pretty well, but again you're adding cost compared to the 335i.
With all the performance options (DSG, adaptive suspension, sport diff) I'd expect the S4 to edge the 335i on the track...but you've also pushed the sticker price into a different class at that point, and it's an open question if you're getting enough in relation to what you're paying.
October 15, 2012, 12:38 pm
It seems to me your main issue with the F30 is the reliability issue with the 2 you have had so far. Is this correct, I am only asking because this is a decision I am also facing but am leaning towards the 335i in pure, x drive or active hybrid form. I don't track my cars and with the power pack I should have more than enough power for every day driving
October 15, 2012, 1:01 pm
Part of this might just be the fact that the AWD Quattro imparts a different feel to the car. My wife simply said she likes the feeling of a RWD car better—she's more sensitive than I am in this regard and doesn't even consider the Mini Cooper S fun to drive because it doesn't have RWD (I find the Mini plenty fun.)
October 15, 2012, 1:49 pm
European car mags (EVO, CAR) say the same thing about even the RS4, that it lacks an emotional bond, too clinical. That's a bummer cause the Audis are awesome on paper.
October 15, 2012, 3:37 pm
Nice original review by the OP.
I too choose the 335i over the S4. I picked the 335i Sport Line (seats are terrific) - over a similarly optioned S4 that was about $6k higher - w/o the fancy rear diff. The S4 is actually a touch quicker, but they both feel way better than 300 or 333hp as claimed and have tons of torque. The paddle-shifting between the 2 cars are both very good; better than ANYTHING else I've driven. The S4 auto-blips the throttle on downshifts which is pretty cool. That super-charged V6 pulls like hell; which is very fun. I know the S4 is heavier, but it really doesn't feel like it. The moonroof has a ton of settings which is just odd for me to understand on why it's needed.
The S4 seats were crap, they're leather but not comfy at all and never fit me at 160 lbs. The exterior is so blah, and the only difference between it and the A4 is like 3 little badges. Again, it's $58k - $63k. W/O Nav or rearview camera it's around $54k.
I did get into an 08 RS4 6sp manual and it felt pretty damn sweet for a 4yr old car with 40,000 miles. I was wanting a warranty though...
October 15, 2012, 4:33 pm
October 15, 2012, 4:41 pm
fwiw, the newer A4's that aren't manual are CVT's... blah.
October 15, 2012, 5:46 pm
October 15, 2012, 6:02 pm
October 15, 2012, 8:57 pm
October 15, 2012, 9:16 pm
October 16, 2012, 3:06 am
October 16, 2012, 3:14 am
P+ S4 is between $47K and $49K, depending on transmission. Add $1K for the rear differential and I wouldn't want anything more added to it. So how does it start at $58K? Even the Prestige line starts around $53K-55K
PS: I do agree with a poster who said the interior is not as luxurious as it was made to be in the press. The S4 interior is more sporty. You can't even get wood trim. In that sense, the A4 offers colors and trim choices that will make it look luxurious than the S4.
October 16, 2012, 3:20 am
You do realize that you're on a BMW forum right? I think that pretty much guarantees that most of us here are bimmer enthusiasts. And I'm just sharing thoughts on my experiences while shopping for a new car, and comparing the F30 against its closest-in-class rivals. As you've rightfully noticed, I'm not the only Bimmerfest-er who does this. If you're looking for objective reviews by non-BMW people, Bimmerfest might not be the best venue to do so.
October 16, 2012, 3:31 am
October 16, 2012, 4:39 am
Read my review—I drove the S4 before the 335. The S4 only felt "wrong" to me AFTER I got in the 335.
October 16, 2012, 11:02 am
October 16, 2012, 11:25 am
While handling is a critical element to driving dynamics, there are other factors that are important. Ulitimaltey that will be up to each driver to decide what they think.
October 16, 2012, 11:32 am
P+ S4 is between $47K and $49K, depending on transmission. Add $1K for the rear differential and I wouldn't want anything more added to it. So how does it start at $58K? Even the Prestige line starts around $53K-55K
PS: I do agree with a poster who said the interior is not as luxurious as it was made to be in the press. The S4 interior is more sporty. You can't even get wood trim. In that sense, the A4 offers colors and trim choices that will make it look luxurious than the S4.
October 16, 2012, 11:36 am
October 16, 2012, 11:52 am
While handling is a critical element to driving dynamics, there are other factors that are important. Ulitimaltey that will be up to each driver to decide what they think.
Many automatically think 8sp is better than 6sp, but IMHO, 6sp is the right amount of gears if you like to use paddles or manual shift often.
October 16, 2012, 12:06 pm
I currently drive a Cadillac CTS Coupe. The car is very comfortable but not very sport.
I've been in the process of test driving a ton of different cars to find my next vehicle. Right now my choices are between the A4 2.0T, 328i, S4 3.0T, and 335xi. I want a manual so I cant get the 328xi.
From my experience so far:
- Audi's are terrible to lease. The S4 is $150 more than the 335xi to lease, and then the A4 is around the same price as the 335xi to lease. This is with 1k below invoice on the Audi's and ED Invoice + $750 for the BMWs.
The S4 was my favorite to drive. This will be my first Audi or BMW so I am not use to either one. My main love with the S4 was the transmission. The Audi manual just felt better compared to the BMW shifter. However, I know I will get use to the BMW one. From what I've been reading the manuals is not BMW strong point.
Sadly, I cant decide what to buy and might hold off until the end of the year. It doens't help that service from dealerships in Maryland has been so poor. Both BMW and Audi has been far worse than my experience buying my Cadillac. If I buy a BMW I will be buying it from one of the sponsors here that have been super helpfull. I wanted to do a local dealership because I wanted to trade in the Cadillac but will probably sell it myself now.
October 16, 2012, 12:11 pm
Many automatically think 8sp is better than 6sp, but IMHO, 6sp is the right amount of gears if you like to use paddles or manual shift often.
October 16, 2012, 12:44 pm
October 16, 2012, 12:54 pm
If I owned the car, I'm sure I'd get used to it. There are lots of quirks about the E46's interior that I really dislike—much more so than the S4's—and I've gotten used to them over the years.
October 16, 2012, 1:16 pm
Interesting thread.
If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.
I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi — but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 1:38 pm
If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.
I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi - but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 1:41 pm
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 1:47 pm
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:00 pm
If you drove the 335i and 328i back-to-back on a track, you'd find the 328i is better. It is the enthusiast's 3 Series these days.
I've owned a 335i, so I know all about it (yep, replaced it with an Audi — but only because the A4 was a better value). Likely getting a new 328i in four months, as the N55 doesn't deliver the driving experience of the beloved N54.
- Mike
If we were buying a car today, it would be the 328i with M-Sport, 6MT in EBII.
But we're probably going to ED this car, so we've got plenty of time for more test drives and decision making.
October 16, 2012, 2:05 pm
328 is an awesome car. I wish there were some good roads in south Florida where i could appreciate the nibble feel of this car.
October 16, 2012, 2:08 pm
If we were buying a car today, it would be the 328i with M-Sport, 6MT in EBII.
But we're probably going to ED this car, so we've got plenty of time for more test drives and decision making.
In the 335i vs. S4 debate, the biggest factor is AWD — completely changes the driving dynamics.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:12 pm
In the 335i vs. S4 debate, the biggest factor is AWD — completely changes the driving dynamics.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:21 pm
Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.
Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.
My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:23 pm
October 16, 2012, 2:24 pm
Nice.
I really enjoyed my time in the 328. Really wish there were roads around here where i could ut it to it's limits but its just not possible. Wish i lived in westchester, NY area during the summer months.
Looking forward to getting into the 335 and seeing how it compares to the 328.
Thanks for your input.
October 16, 2012, 2:25 pm
October 16, 2012, 2:39 pm
Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.
Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.
My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.
- Mike
As for the feel of AWD, I think I mentioned that could be a possible reason why the S4 left me feeling ambivalent. I love the feel of RWD and now that I live in California, there's really no compelling reason to have it in a street car. Even when we lived in Boston, I happily commuted in the winter with snow tires on my E46.
October 16, 2012, 2:48 pm
October 16, 2012, 2:52 pm
As for the feel of AWD, I think I mentioned that could be a possible reason why the S4 left me feeling ambivalent. I love the feel of RWD and now that I live in California, there's really no compelling reason to have it in a street car. Even when we lived in Boston, I happily commuted in the winter with snow tires on my E46.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:56 pm
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 2:59 pm
October 16, 2012, 3:07 pm
October 16, 2012, 3:08 pm
This is the difference between all wheel drive and rear wheel drive.
Rain/Snow + RWD =
Rain/Snow + AWD =
October 16, 2012, 3:21 pm
October 16, 2012, 3:26 pm
Rain/Snow + RWD =
Rain/Snow + AWD =
October 16, 2012, 3:54 pm
October 16, 2012, 4:20 pm
On a good track day, I get about 100 miles in on the circuit.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 4:37 pm
October 16, 2012, 4:49 pm
Nothing is more exciting than full throttle, hanging the ass out, rear-wheel drive. However, all-wheel drive makes for quicker acceleration and lap times.
Give me RWD in sunny Southern California, but if I lived where temps dropped below freezing I'd have AWD in a heartbeat. The Nissan GT-R is stupid fast, thanks to its AWD.
My favorite car on the planet (right now) is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage 6MT. It is old-school rear-wheel drive with a manual gearbox. Tail happy and a hoot to drive. Pic of my kids with the car Aston lent me.
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 4:51 pm
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 5:00 pm
- Mike
October 16, 2012, 5:02 pm
October 16, 2012, 5:06 pm
October 16, 2012, 5:06 pm
October 16, 2012, 7:24 pm
Rain/Snow + RWD =
Rain/Snow + AWD =
Same goes with flying around VIR in the Evo.
October 16, 2012, 8:17 pm
October 16, 2012, 8:22 pm
Same goes with flying around VIR in the Evo.
October 16, 2012, 8:43 pm
BMW's differential is electronic whereby it simply brakes the spinning wheel. It typically actually harms performance, but can improve stability. It is inexpensive to implement and maintenance requires only rear pad changes.
The only time I envision a conventional LSD increasing braking distance is if it is very tight and one is braking very hard in an extremely tight corner and the inner rear wheel is hopping instead of braking. Under these circumstances you have bigger issues to address however.
October 17, 2012, 8:50 pm
Have both. Albeit, my 335i is an xDrive coupe of 2011 vintage, it does have the perf pack.
The S4 is new....,2013 with the trick diff. Actually, it's the GFs. We live together and regularly swap rides.
I've test driven a '12 335i (RWD), too.
You aren't going to like this, but there's not one area I prefer the 335i over the S4. I love my 335i. Wouldn't trade it for a new F30.
The S4 is the better car, however.....in some areas an insignificant amount. In other areas, a very significant amount.
October 17, 2012, 9:59 pm
Well that's not good
October 17, 2012, 10:40 pm
He's driving an E92 335i, not the new F30...
- Mike
October 18, 2012, 2:52 am
Ok, I missed that part. Which areas is the S4 "significantly superior" though? It would help if we had more clarity on that. It's an interesting assessment from someone with access to both.
October 18, 2012, 11:49 am
I have driven both back to back and thought, as he does, that the S4 simply feels faster and is easier to drive hard than the RWD 335i. However, I think that as an overall driving experience the F30 is more enjoyable, partially because it's a much more comfortable car to drive quickly than the S4, it's a newer quieter platform, it has better instrumentation, telematics, nav, etc.
Also, a well optioned S4 is quite expensive compared to a similar 335i.
October 18, 2012, 12:02 pm
I hope these 335's being compared to the S4 didn't have the base BMW suspension and all-weather tires.
I'd expect an S4 with the sport diff to come on top in raw performance either way, but comparing a base suspension BMW to an Audi S car is probably not a valid comparison. And isn't the F30 the first 3 series where you can get an upgraded suspension option with xDrive?
October 18, 2012, 12:22 pm
I'd expect an S4 with the sport diff to come on top in raw performance either way, but comparing a base suspension BMW to an Audi S car is probably not a valid comparison. And isn't the F30 the first 3 series where you can get an upgraded suspension option with xDrive?
The S4 was a 2012 as well. The S4 had the DSG transmission.
Honestly it wasn't a contest. These are both VERY capable and VERY fun to drive cars, but the S4 is much easier, in stock form with similar options to the 335i to push hard and drive well. AWD helps the car launch better and lets it blast out of corners with no drama.
Either one of these are an awesome choice and the 335i is a much better choice as an all around daily driver, since you can put it in comfort and it will be a much more pleasant ride than the S4 when doing boring stuff, like commuting.
October 18, 2012, 1:27 pm
The S4 was a 2012 as well. The S4 had the DSG transmission.
Honestly it wasn't a contest. These are both VERY capable and VERY fun to drive cars, but the S4 is much easier, in stock form with similar options to the 335i to push hard and drive well. AWD helps the car launch better and lets it blast out of corners with no drama.
Either one of these are an awesome choice and the 335i is a much better choice as an all around daily driver, since you can put it in comfort and it will be a much more pleasant ride than the S4 when doing boring stuff, like commuting.
October 18, 2012, 1:35 pm
October 18, 2012, 1:37 pm
October 18, 2012, 1:39 pm
October 18, 2012, 1:54 pm
October 18, 2012, 2:00 pm
October 18, 2012, 2:02 pm
personally, i have always been a big fan of bmw passive sport suspensions. i think they strik a great balance between comfort and sport.
October 18, 2012, 2:03 pm
All of the above are true and the $1000 adaptive suspension and adjustable steering rack options should honestly be no brainers... on the S4 the adaptive suspension is something like $2800.
Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
October 18, 2012, 2:17 pm
Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
It's funny how reasonable an option package ZDH is. Going from a G37 to G37 Sport is like $5,000. Adding the (cosmetic-only) sport package to a G37 is $2,000. The (cosmetic only) sport package on a M-B C350 is $2,500. BMW gives you adaptive dampers and sport steering on any model for $1,000.
October 18, 2012, 2:22 pm
It's funny how reasonable an option package ZDH is. Going from a G37 to G37 Sport is like $5,000. Adding the (cosmetic-only) sport package to a G37 is $2,000. The (cosmetic only) sport package on a M-B C350 is $2,500. BMW gives you adaptive dampers and sport steering on any model for $1,000.
In my case, an S4 would have been within $1500 of the 335xi because I get pretty hefty savings on Audi (flat employee discount plus big owner incentives)... however, in a lease the 335 or 328 would be a little less expensive due to lower MF and higher residual of the F30.
In any event, I agree that as an all around super fun daily driver the F30 is better than the A4/S4 at this time. We'll see what Audi comes up with for the new model in another 2 yrs.
October 18, 2012, 2:27 pm
Exactly totaly agree. But honestly even in Sportline we are not talking huge money here. 1k I would take that over leather or PDC or HK for example.
Still, in "stock" and "similarly priced" configuration, if you are really oriented towards sport driving I would still have to give the nod to the S4.
October 18, 2012, 2:32 pm
October 18, 2012, 3:10 pm
October 18, 2012, 4:08 pm
October 18, 2012, 4:19 pm
October 18, 2012, 4:22 pm
October 18, 2012, 5:22 pm
First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.
S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......
-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)
Again, I love my 335i.
I prefer the S4.
October 18, 2012, 5:31 pm
I would only prefer the S4 if it was a "fun" "weekend" car that I could also take to track days. I think the F30 is a far better daily driver. The F30 has better tech, very good seats (I might even argue they are a touch better than the S4 seats because of the adjustable thigh bolsters and three position headrest) and is probably about 9/10 as good as the S4 for spirited driving.
In any event, I chose the BMW this go around, we'll see what Audi brings to the table next time.
October 18, 2012, 5:34 pm
First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.
S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......
-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)
Again, I love my 335i.
I prefer the S4.
October 18, 2012, 5:48 pm
This is the problem I have with these advantages, it seems they are all subjective except for the 0-60. With the power pack this should take care of that. Even without the power pack the 335i is fast enough. The S4 does look nice in their equivalent of Estoril Blue though.
I have spent some time on audizine and I like the crowd there. They are down to earth, however the majority of them seem to be previous Golf/VW/Audi owners, it seems the S4 has not had a broader appeal. The guys they do love to mod their cars though.
October 18, 2012, 8:13 pm
First and foremost, you option an E90 or F30 up to an S4 Premium Plus level, and they are going to be very close pricewise.
S4 is/has (over E90/F30)......
-faster (by a couple of 1/10ths 0-60, and a few more tenths in the 1/4),
-better steering
-better seats
-better interior
-better ride/handling compromise
-better trans (DSG)
Again, I love my 335i.
I prefer the S4.
Better seats? Obviously you have not tried the Sportline seats
Better interior? Not IMO and many others including most automotive media, but hey that is subjective isn't it.
Better ride? I didn't drive an S4 with the automatic damping suspension so I can't say if its better than the F30's DHP....But my F30 is much better than the S4 i test drove with the standard suspension. I will give the S4 the win here if compared with the luxury F30
Better trans? it could be since you guys like automatics I can't say since I didn't drive an DSG S4. But 6-MT no way. BMW is more direct, and less notchy than the S4. Plus I love the 2nd gear in the 335i. Its just perfect for downshifting and entering slow corners.
Bottom line I could have had any car in the 45K to 65K range for a daily driver and i went with the 335i because it made a better impression on me. You S4 lovers are going to kill me for this, but I liked the G37 Sport sedan 6-MT better than the Audi. At least it gave you some drama and fun driving it.
VOIP are you kidding me when you saying you want an AWD car for a fun weekend/track car? Sorry a neutral RWD with the ability to induce 4 wheel drifts anytime is what I have in mind for a fun track car. And that ain't the S4 dude.
October 18, 2012, 9:01 pm
I have two buddies who track their S4s and RS4s and they have no complaints and they aren't giving up much in lap times to "faster" RWD Porsches. I really had to resist caving in and getting an S4 myself.
October 18, 2012, 9:06 pm
October 18, 2012, 9:13 pm
Well.....believe what you will. I drive both....regularly. That said, both are fine cars.
October 18, 2012, 9:57 pm
The 335i really needs a diff to be a track car, imo.
October 18, 2012, 10:16 pm
After your post I am going to test drive it again before picking up the 335. I test drove it twice, the first time I was overwhelmed with how well it drove. The second time not so much. I will admit that with the fine nappa leather seats, there are very few interiors that smell as well south of $65,000
October 19, 2012, 1:07 am
We have a 2011 Audi S4 with a DCT, a 2011.5 M3 sedan MT, and a 2011 335is convertible with a DCT.
They are all three very fine cars.
I prefer the S4 for highway trips as I find it more comfortable for me at 6'4". It is also very planted on the highway. The seating is very comfortable and has never given me a pain in my side when taking a trip like both of the BMWs have. I also think the acceleration is much smoother with the supercharger versus the turbos in the 335is - there is no choppy start-ups or slight hesitation when getting on it. The DCT functions faster and smoother than the DCT in my 335is. The GPS/entertainment center is easier and more straight forward to operate than the BMW iDrive. The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle. There is a spare tire stored in the trunk and the car does not have run flat tires (also comes with a jack and tool kit). The trunk storage is more useful. Our S4 has all performance options and the car really wakes up in "Dynamic Mode" - the steering becomes more precise, the accelerator is more active, the handling is more planted and agressive, etc. The drink holders are better in the front and the rear. I prefer the quality of the leather better than the 335is (our M3 has the upgraded leather which is very nice indeed). I prefer that you actually move the shifter into the various drive positions as opposed to the very frustrating BMW shifter (automatic transmissions). The rear has broader view. The back-up camera and on-screen view is really excellent, and much better and more useful than the one in our M3. I like the S4 upgraded 19" wheels better than any of the BMW wheels. Each Fall season, Audi offers a wheel/snow tire package that is/was 1/2 the cost as compared to BMW (BMW offered no winter package deals, at least in 2011.) and, you can select from actual Made in Germany S4 wheel options and not some cheaper crappy looking wheels. The snow tires we have are Michelins.
The S4 has better stopping power as compared to my 335is. The S4 has three suspension adjustments as compared to my 335is that has no selections. I also like the change lanes warning system that was not offered by BMW. The S4 owners manual fits easily into the glove compartment and does not fit in either of the BMWs.
I do not like the electronic parking brake in the S4 and prefer the manual hand parking brake in the 335is and M3. I also don't like how much dust the brakes throw off and gets all over the wheels and sides/rear of car.
And, IMO, if there was never an article saying that the Audi's power is front wheel biased, I doubt that most drivers/if anyone who is not a race car driver would ever really notice it.
October 19, 2012, 1:52 am
All that said, we both actually still prefer the feel of the 328i. I will add that since this would be our second, more practical car, it would likely never see track time. That's what our M3 is for. Incidentally, I find the 328i a closer cousin to our M3 than the 335i in every instance other than a straight line.
October 19, 2012, 2:15 am
All that said, we both actually still prefer the feel of the 328i. I will add that since this would be our second, more practical car, it would likely never see track time. That's what our M3 is for. Incidentally, I find the 328i a closer cousin to our M3 than the 335i in every instance other than a straight line.
Ask a B8 A4 owner how they like changing rear brake pads — a laptop and a proprietary Audi cable are required! Ask me how I know (but I borrowed one and still did them myself).
- Mike
October 19, 2012, 7:47 am
Well VOIP maybe you should have. obviously price was not an issue so the question you need to ask yourself why didn't you. I have alreay stated my reason why I didn't and it had nothing to do with looks or price.
October 19, 2012, 8:48 am
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
October 19, 2012, 8:56 am
October 19, 2012, 9:08 am
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
October 19, 2012, 10:45 am
After your post I am going to test drive it again before picking up the 335. I test drove it twice, the first time I was overwhelmed with how well it drove. The second time not so much. I will admit that with the fine nappa leather seats, there are very few interiors that smell as well south of $65,000
My GF (with my sterling negotiation help
Some consider that a benefit. Some don't.
Fact is, both the S4s and the BMWs are at the pinnacle of the luxury sports sedan market. Everybody else is an "also ran".
As a side note, the GF also drove a MB C350 4 matic coupe. I thought she was going to orgasm when we pulled up to the Benz dealer and saw it sitting in the showroom. She loved the styling. It was a pretty car. But, so is the S4 and the BMW.
Then, we drove it. Are you kidding me? It was cramped, slow, and not comfortable, at all. It handled "OK", but that's as far as I'd take it. For that kind of money (about the same as an S4 or 335i), I thought it was a rip off.
October 19, 2012, 10:45 am
October 19, 2012, 10:46 am
They are all three very fine cars.
I prefer the S4 for highway trips as I find it more comfortable for me at 6'4". It is also very planted on the highway. The seating is very comfortable and has never given me a pain in my side when taking a trip like both of the BMWs have. I also think the acceleration is much smoother with the supercharger versus the turbos in the 335is - there is no choppy start-ups or slight hesitation when getting on it. The DCT functions faster and smoother than the DCT in my 335is. The GPS/entertainment center is easier and more straight forward to operate than the BMW iDrive. The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle. There is a spare tire stored in the trunk and the car does not have run flat tires (also comes with a jack and tool kit). The trunk storage is more useful. Our S4 has all performance options and the car really wakes up in "Dynamic Mode" - the steering becomes more precise, the accelerator is more active, the handling is more planted and agressive, etc. The drink holders are better in the front and the rear. I prefer the quality of the leather better than the 335is (our M3 has the upgraded leather which is very nice indeed). I prefer that you actually move the shifter into the various drive positions as opposed to the very frustrating BMW shifter (automatic transmissions). The rear has broader view. The back-up camera and on-screen view is really excellent, and much better and more useful than the one in our M3. I like the S4 upgraded 19" wheels better than any of the BMW wheels. Each Fall season, Audi offers a wheel/snow tire package that is/was 1/2 the cost as compared to BMW (BMW offered no winter package deals, at least in 2011.) and, you can select from actual Made in Germany S4 wheel options and not some cheaper crappy looking wheels. The snow tires we have are Michelins.
The S4 has better stopping power as compared to my 335is. The S4 has three suspension adjustments as compared to my 335is that has no selections. I also like the change lanes warning system that was not offered by BMW. The S4 owners manual fits easily into the glove compartment and does not fit in either of the BMWs.
I do not like the electronic parking brake in the S4 and prefer the manual hand parking brake in the 335is and M3. I also don't like how much dust the brakes throw off and gets all over the wheels and sides/rear of car.
And, IMO, if there was never an article saying that the Audi's power is front wheel biased, I doubt that most drivers/if anyone who is not a race car driver would ever really notice it.
October 19, 2012, 10:49 am
All this is fair but the f30 fixed some of the shortfalls above. The back up camera for example, I have a 2011 X5 and the back up camera on that is better than Audi's. it's simply one of the best in the business and this is the same one on the F30s. The N55 paired with the ZF as in my X5 and in the F30 works very well. Motortrend exclaimed how the F30 they tested was just as fast as the 335is.
Just wanted to point this out as examples of how the F30 improved some of the shortfalls as noted above
October 19, 2012, 10:57 am
My GF (with my sterling negotiation help
Some consider that a benefit. Some don't.
Fact is, both the S4s and the BMWs are at the pinnacle of the luxury sports sedan market. Everybody else is an "also ran".
As a side note, the GF also drove a MB C350 4 matic coupe. I thought she was going to orgasm when we pulled up to the Benz dealer and saw it sitting in the showroom. She loved the styling. It was a pretty car. But, so is the S4 and the BMW.
Then, we drove it. Are you kidding me? It was cramped, slow, and not comfortable, at all. It handled "OK", but that's as far as I'd take it. For that kind of money (about the same as an S4 or 335i), I thought it was a rip off.
October 19, 2012, 11:07 am
Audi = $$$
However, all automakers seem to be leaning towards free maintenance programs...
- Mike
October 19, 2012, 11:09 am
October 19, 2012, 11:13 am
Just wanted to point this out as examples of how the F30 improved some of the shortfalls as noted above
I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
October 19, 2012, 11:18 am
I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
- Mike
October 19, 2012, 11:19 am
Audi = $$$
However, all automakers seem to be leaning towards free maintenance programs...
- Mike
October 19, 2012, 11:22 am
Plus, I would never buy a vehicle based on maintenance costs. Buy the one you enjoy more, or the one that better fits your lifestyle.
- Mike
October 19, 2012, 11:26 am
Our Audi dealer gave us the first oil change and service for free at 1,500 miles. We own the car and I'm old school on oil changes. This car now has about 19,800 miles on it in 26 months. I have paid for three additional oil changes and for the 15,000 mile service (this service with an oil change was about $600.)
October 19, 2012, 11:29 am
They tested the 335i
October 19, 2012, 11:30 am
I have not seen the new BMW back up camera, but I love the one on our S4.
As for the back up camera, once paired with the park distance control, it's top notch.
October 19, 2012, 11:36 am
Plus, I would never buy a vehicle based on maintenance costs. Buy the one you enjoy more, or the one that better fits your lifestyle.
- Mike
But, it depends on how well you maintain a car and how many miles you drive on an annual basis as to whether you keep a car beyond the warranty period or not. We have multiple cars and don't put many miles on most of them. I also maintain them extremely well. Plus, cars today cost big money. How much would maintenance and repairs have to cost annually before it makes the car not worth owning beyond the warranty? I'm thinking that these out-of-pocket costs are less than the depreciation hit we take everytime we drive off the lot with a new car.
October 19, 2012, 12:05 pm
As for the back up camera, once paired with the park distance control, it's top notch.
The performance numbers are impressive for the new 335i. But, my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system. I also wonder if the new automatic transmission does the rev matching on down shifts like the DCT transmission in my 335is? Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge as well as other performance options not available on the 335i.
October 19, 2012, 12:13 pm
The performance numbers are impressive for the new 335i. But, my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system. I also wonder if the new automatic transmission does the rev matching on down shifts like the DCT transmission in my 335is? Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge as well as other performance options not available on the 335i.
Also, you should give the new zf8 sport, its really amazing
as for exclusive badges,
Other than that, sounds like your trying to show off here lol
October 19, 2012, 12:14 pm
Also, you should give the new zf8 sport, its really amazing
as for exclusive badges,
Other than that, sounds like your trying to show off here lol
October 19, 2012, 12:16 pm
"my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system."
"Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge"
October 19, 2012, 12:22 pm
"my 335is sounds much cooler with it's spectacular exclusive exhaust system."
"Plus, let's not forget that my car also has an exclusive 335is badge"
But, the exhaust system in the 335is does sound really cool!
October 19, 2012, 12:24 pm
Was sounding like bj logged in under your user name for that post
October 19, 2012, 12:28 pm
Whether its showing off or not it does not matter. My take is the F30 with the m sport package is still the one to beat, once equipped with the power pack (comes with the exhaust too right?) it should be right there with the 335is. It's got the exclusive m badges too right
October 19, 2012, 12:32 pm
October 19, 2012, 12:34 pm
i would recommend the m performance exhuast for people who want a better exhuast. port installed
October 19, 2012, 12:50 pm
Well the 335is looks sweet though. I wonder if the new coupes will look as good as the E92s
October 19, 2012, 12:59 pm
October 19, 2012, 1:21 pm
Agreed, they did a good job with that one, no doubt
October 19, 2012, 7:46 pm
Read my review—I drove the S4 before the 335. The S4 only felt "wrong" to me AFTER I got in the 335.
October 19, 2012, 7:49 pm
October 19, 2012, 7:51 pm
October 19, 2012, 7:54 pm
October 19, 2012, 8:04 pm
October 19, 2012, 8:11 pm
[s4]...The rear seating is more comfortable and roomier for your legs as the seat bottoms have a better downward angle.
October 19, 2012, 8:12 pm
Ask a B8 A4 owner how they like changing rear brake pads — a laptop and a proprietary Audi cable are required! Ask me how I know (but I borrowed one and still did them myself).
October 19, 2012, 8:20 pm
October 19, 2012, 8:34 pm
October 19, 2012, 8:38 pm
October 19, 2012, 8:40 pm
I cursed Audi for weeks regarding my rear brakes.
- Mike