Head 2 Head BMW Alpina B7 VS Audi S8 - Which is the ultimate land yacht?

by Bimmerfest.com Member - jtimmer on October 26, 2012, 7:33 am


have you guys seen this? It figures that after three S8's I am now swithing to the B7 (arrives in 2 weeks). Still, performance aside, the new Audi looks boring compared to the Alpina.

Quote:
On this week's episode of Head 2 Head, senior features editor Jonny Lieberman is pitting two luxury tuner limousines, the BMW 7 Series-based Alpina B7 and Audi S8, against one another to see which of the new performance-tuned German luxury flagships is best.

Lieberman starts out by comparing the B7 and the S8 on the track. While on paper 4.4-liter twin-turbo V8's 540 hp and 538 lb-ft of torque of the B7 far outclasses the 512 hp and 479 lb-ft the all-wheel drive S8's 4.0-liter twin-turbo V-8 produces, the Audi destroyed the Alpina in a straight line, needing 3.5 second to hit 60 mph from a standstill, as opposed to the B7's 4.3 second run.
http://wot.motortrend.com/super-seda...ad-281025.html
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89 responses to Head 2 Head BMW Alpina B7 VS Audi S8 - Which is the ultimate land yacht?

Leslierc commented:
October 26, 2012, 8:44 am

I completely agree with your assessment that the B7 is the more attractive of the 2 cars (and would be my choice), but I can't get over by how much the S8 appears to devour the B7. Yikes!!!!
chrischeung commented:
October 26, 2012, 8:45 am

What do you expect from a company that also owns Porsche, Lamborghini and Bugatti? They want less performance?

More things to come - just say they make a future Audi sedan based off a next-gen Panamera platform. Audi's not shy about platform sharing.
f01driver commented:
October 26, 2012, 5:58 pm

The S8 is very blah but my god the performance numbers are incredible. I suspect BMW will come out with a M version because every other luxury manufacture is pumping up the performance numbers on their flagship cars.
Madtown commented:
October 26, 2012, 8:16 pm

What was up with the B7's lack of power? Its dyno #'s were very low. Either there test care had issues or BMW/Alpina are fudging really bad on rated power numbers.
Epiplatys commented:
October 26, 2012, 8:46 pm

I'm not sure what is "blah" about the Audi's performance. The RS4 I traded in for the 750 will run circles around the 750 or B7 any day all day long. Just an immensely more fun car to drive. Reliability is a different conversation, otherwise I'd still be driving it.
f01driver commented:
October 26, 2012, 10:14 pm

I meant to say the exterior styling is blah, not performance numbers.
mlad1101 commented:
October 26, 2012, 10:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epiplatys View Post
I'm not sure what is "blah" about the Audi's performance. The RS4 I traded in for the 750 will run circles around the 750 or B7 any day all day long. Just an immensely more fun car to drive. Reliability is a different conversation, otherwise I'd still be driving it.
Did you bother reading his post? He didn't say the performance was blah... Comparing an RS4 to 750, apples to oranges.
Epiplatys commented:
October 26, 2012, 10:24 pm

Oh sure my bad
jdefg2000 commented:
October 27, 2012, 11:19 am

thing I dont understand is if Motortrend was able to figure one afternoon about the S8 power.......how is it possible that Audi's development team had no idea, and if so why would they grossly understate the power?..how is that an intelligent marketing plan?....just raises some strange questions.
ayu910 commented:
October 27, 2012, 11:34 am

The S8 might get extra boost as ringer car just for the press. On the other hand, Alpina need to step up with better dyno to match factory spec.
filmoreslim commented:
October 27, 2012, 11:41 am

I watched this a few times. A couple of observations from a 2013 F02 750Li xDrive owner:

not sure why they did not compare a SWB xDrive B7. Probably pulls another 5% off drag times

My car has no throttle response lag whatsoever in sport & sport+ mode

The S8 has launch control...might be something for B7 or M Sport Pkge in the future and certainly drastically affects acceleration times.

Given the advancements of N63B44Tu engine, I'm not sure how Alpina can squeeze that much more out of it

I wonder how the S8 and B7 brakes perform...mine began to get hot after one lap on the Nürburgring

The interior and the exterior of the S8 scream "Buick" to me. Especially the interior, it just looks cheap.

I may test drive one for kicks, it wouldbe interesting to spin one around Nordschleife.

I'd be interested to find out what alpbmw thinks?
jdefg2000 commented:
October 27, 2012, 1:45 pm

weight is about the same as a panamera turbo s.....stock should be less horsepower than a panny turbo s, yet this s8 is higher.....IF a normal s8 is achieving these numbers and its 60k cheaper of a car with the same drag numbers......then yeah impressive value.
oneofew commented:
October 27, 2012, 4:30 pm

Alpina pretty much does what BMW advertised it would do.

On the other hand Audi 3.5 to 60, 11.8 118mph on 1/4 mi, thats in the same league as a 911 Turbo, or a GTR. Only full size sedan I know that can pull that is a S65.

I like to see an S8 off the showroom floor post those numbers.
alpbmw commented:
October 27, 2012, 5:23 pm

I was interested in the S8 but really wanted LWB so it was pretty much out from the start (I never drove one, maybe I should have?). I don't mind Audi's exterior styling, but do find the interior of the BMW superior.

I was really surprised to see the dyno numbers. Either the S8 was a tuned up press car or the Alpina had issues - or both. I can't wait for some more B7 tests/reviews to come out. I also can't wait for my darn car to arrive stateside...
f01driver commented:
October 27, 2012, 5:44 pm

I've seen another test on Youtube of the S8 and the guy testing it was only able to get a time of 4.5secs so I think 3.5 for the average driver is near impossible, you're probably looking at the low to mid 4's.
jtimmer commented:
October 27, 2012, 5:46 pm

the 2013 B7 (SWB xDrive) is actually only $20k more than the S8 ($135k vs $115k). I priced them both out since I had to decide which one to order (I went with the B7 after three S8's in a row). However, the cost of a lease is exactlty the same because the residual of the B7 (60%) is far higher than the S8 (45%). Those are for 12k miles. My B7 is on the ship and headed to NJ as we speak. I am dissapointed in the Motortrend review but the Alpina is so much hotter looking.
AdamG13 commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:24 pm

Interesting color on the B7. Didn't know there was a flat blue option.
jtimmer commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:31 pm

yes, that matte finish is awesome. I wish I knew that was an option when I ordered mine (I got the Alpina Blue with black/ivory interior). The matte look is very hot right now. I was in Beverly Hills a few weeks ago and I saw several Porsches and Bentleys with a charcoal matte finish and the grilles and wheels in black.
f01driver commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:35 pm

You can request to get a matte paint job on any BMW model, I think the cost is around $20k+ or you can always go down the vinyl route which would cost around a few thousand dollars.
jtimmer commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:43 pm

20k! LOL. 135k is enough for now! But it does look good.
AdamG13 commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:45 pm

I've been seeing lots of matte silver C-class coupes around here lately. Just saw one that was chrome! I don't know if it was paint or some kind of metallic wrap.
jtimmer commented:
October 27, 2012, 6:51 pm

I don't see anything like that here in New England. But just having the B7 and especially in the alpina blue will be something special. I have only seen one or two B7s here in 20 years. I just hope it is not going to look too dorky on 18" winter wheels during the winter months.
f01driver commented:
October 27, 2012, 7:27 pm

Both cars are extremely rare and exclusive.
alpbmw commented:
October 27, 2012, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamG13 View Post
Interesting color on the B7. Didn't know there was a flat blue option.
The flat blue isn't listed in the US B7 ordering guide (unless they added it recently).
filmoreslim commented:
October 27, 2012, 11:10 pm

Matte paint is any paint minus clear coat...any color you like...my Dingolfing tour guide and I were having a chuckle that people pay extra for that.
ayu910 commented:
October 28, 2012, 1:41 am

Any frozen (matt) color is consider as "Individual" from BMW and cost should be around $5K, SA need to check with factory direct when placing order due to limited schedule run. Production efficiency of any "Individual" configuration is much lower (like 7 to 1) than standard, therefore, the premium is mainly to compensate production rate cost rather material cost.
f01driver commented:
October 28, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayu910 View Post
Any frozen (matt) color is consider as "Individual" from BMW and cost should be around $5K, SA need to check with factory direct when placing order due to limited schedule run. Production efficiency of any "Individual" configuration is much lower (like 7 to 1) than standard, therefore, the premium is mainly to compensate production rate cost rather material cost.
Wow, $5k isn't bad actually...up here someone was quoted $20k for a f10. I've been told tho that matte paint jobs are a b!tch to maintain; I read that any bird dropping which isn't remove within minutes will basically damage the paint so makes you wonder if it's even worth the hassle.
BMR2009 commented:
October 28, 2012, 10:14 am

Do a wrap on whatever paint you have and it's protected, and you don't have to worry about permanent damage. I think that's the only way to go. Also, if you get tired of it, it can be removed to reveal your natural color.
filmoreslim commented:
October 28, 2012, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f01driver View Post
Wow, $5k isn't bad actually...up here someone was quoted $20k for a f10. I've been told tho that matte paint jobs are a b!tch to maintain; I read that any bird dropping which isn't remove within minutes will basically damage the paint so makes you wonder if it's even worth the hassle.
You are spot on. You also can't go in any car wash that uses any kind of brush or cloth. You can't rub the car very hard or it scratches. Super cool looking though...just wildly impractical. Like getting white carpet in a red wine tasting room.
alpbmw commented:
October 28, 2012, 12:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmoreslim View Post
like getting white carpet in a red wine tasting room.
hahaha.
ayu910 commented:
October 28, 2012, 12:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f01driver View Post
Wow, $5k isn't bad actually...up here someone was quoted $20k for a f10. I've been told tho that matte paint jobs are a b!tch to maintain; I read that any bird dropping which isn't remove within minutes will basically damage the paint so makes you wonder if it's even worth the hassle.
Maintain is not too bad, just like normal paint. Here is a link explain by BMWNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUzv...layer_embedded

BUT, can't just polish/buff scratches at home as it will need to handle by the paint shop.

Warp is a option and avg shop charge around $2.5~3K. However, to match factory quality top warp installer charge up to $7~8K to have perfect edge finish plus cover most of trunk and inside door jamb but after all that still can't do the engine bay. So $5K for factory matt finish is pretty reasonable IMO.
jtimmer commented:
October 28, 2012, 4:49 pm

by wrap do you mean the polyseel? That is something I am considering getting when I take delivery (for both paint and upholstery).
PREDATOR 007 commented:
October 28, 2012, 5:54 pm

A little disappointed in the dyno numbers for BMW. I personally do not care for the styling of the Audi. I am very impressed with the Audi’s performance numbers, especially considering the size of the car.
bigSystems commented:
October 28, 2012, 6:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtimmer View Post
by wrap do you mean the polyseel? That is something I am considering getting when I take delivery (for both paint and upholstery).
Something like this:

http://www.northwestautosalon.com/fu...ps-in-seattle/

http://www.northwestautosalon.com/ve...wraps_gallery/

It'll run you 4-6k depending on type of vehicle and how extensively the wrap is applied (e.g. door jams etc).
"The products we put on the vehicles we wrap are premium, top of the line, automotive grade vinyl films. This vinyl is specially designed for use on vehicles using paint-safe adhesive, malleability, and air-release features that make installation on your car as safe as possible. Unlike a repaint which will ruin the original value of your vehicle, a vinyl wrap will actually protect it! Because the entire vehicle is covered with 3-4 mils thick vinyl, the paint surface is protected from most regular road debris.

Another reason wrapping a vehicle is a far better idea then repainting it is that the wrap is not permanent. If, after a while, you want to change the color or go back to the stock look, the wrap can easily be removed by one of our skilled technicians. By using us for the uninstall, we can assure you that your vehicle will be returned to the same condition as before it was wrapped."
AdamG13 commented:
October 28, 2012, 7:53 pm

Talked to someone with a flat black lambo once and he said he was against wrapping it because it only last a year or so before you have to redo it.

Passing through brentwood today I saw a S550 with a Designo badge that was matte white. Had some kind of metallic element in the paint that made it stand out a bit more than some of the flat whites I've seen here and there.
MMLLC commented:
October 28, 2012, 11:31 pm

I've got a metallic wrap on my 750i. I've had it for a year, and it's been pretty easy to maintain. I don't go into auto car washes, just wash at home. Don't use wax, but that wouldn't help the wrap look anyways. I paid $3,750 for mine, they did the tint as well. All lines are straight, and everything matches well. I've loved having a metallic wrap, as it sets you apart from the 100+ 7 series that I seem to see everyday in LA. I would probably do it again, the time it takes to do one is a pain though.

More pics here: http://www.momentum-motors.com/web/u...09---/3048036/
jtimmer commented:
October 29, 2012, 9:39 am

very cool.
chrischeung commented:
October 29, 2012, 5:26 pm

Has anyone here driven the latest S8? And the B7? In a test drive. Any conclusions on the validity of the MotorTrend test?

Personally, I'm very surprised by the HP figures achieved, since my understanding is that BMW usually underquotes. However, I would also be surprised if MotorTrend or K&N somehow botched the testing, where the car went into a "safe" mode, the car wasn't in Sport where it releases all the ponies etc. There doesn't seem to be a logical explanation as to the discrepancy.

I'm not disappointed, more surprised. I'm a firm believer in the fact that better competitor cars leads to better BMWs.
Leslierc commented:
October 29, 2012, 7:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMLLC View Post
I've got a metallic wrap on my 750i. I've had it for a year, and it's been pretty easy to maintain. I don't go into auto car washes, just wash at home. Don't use wax, but that wouldn't help the wrap look anyways. I paid $3,750 for mine, they did the tint as well. All lines are straight, and everything matches well. I've loved having a metallic wrap, as it sets you apart from the 100+ 7 series that I seem to see everyday in LA. I would probably do it again, the time it takes to do one is a pain though.

More pics here: http://www.momentum-motors.com/web/u...09---/3048036/
I've been admiring your car for quite a while now. Very well done!
MMLLC commented:
October 30, 2012, 2:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslierc View Post
I've been admiring your car for quite a while now. Very well done!
Thanks! I've enjoyed it greatly, but unfortunately it'll be getting sold soon. I suppose it's the devil inside me that always has me desiring another car. I've had it for a year now and it's been awesome, however I just placed an order for a 2013 RR supercharged, and will be selling it in a month or so. Anyone can PM me if interested.
ayu910 commented:
October 30, 2012, 2:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Has anyone here driven the latest S8? And the B7? In a test drive. Any conclusions on the validity of the MotorTrend test?

Personally, I'm very surprised by the HP figures achieved, since my understanding is that BMW usually underquotes. However, I would also be surprised if MotorTrend or K&N somehow botched the testing, where the car went into a "safe" mode, the car wasn't in Sport where it releases all the ponies etc. There doesn't seem to be a logical explanation as to the discrepancy.

I'm not disappointed, more surprised. I'm a firm believer in the fact that better competitor cars leads to better BMWs.
The B7 is not in a "safe" mode, base on 4660 lbs and trap speed of 113.6 from the 1/4 mile video, flywheel HP is aorund 533...little low but fairly close to 540 factory spec.

The S8 most likely a ringer, base on 4641 lbs and trap speed of 118.3 flywheel HP is around 599....that is almost 80HP more than factory spec. Little extra boost is always fun and BMW/Alpina need to learn and make sure to setup a Dinan flash B7 as press car next time.
chrischeung commented:
October 30, 2012, 8:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayu910 View Post
The S8 most likely a ringer
How did they make the car drive smaller than it is? I don't think they can do that by pushing up the horsepower. Perhaps the steering is more sensitive? Crisper turn in? The suspension more reactive? If size is the same, that's what I would expect is the difference. They already mentioned the throttle response.

I also am now wondering if Audi is severly underquoting power. Which is fine, as long as production cars are delivered that way. So if someone can provide some insight from any personal test drives comparing the two.
filmoreslim commented:
October 30, 2012, 9:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayu910 View Post
The B7 is not in a "safe" mode, base on 4660 lbs and trap speed of 113.6 from the 1/4 mile video, flywheel HP is aorund 533...little low but fairly close to 540 factory spec.

The S8 most likely a ringer, base on 4641 lbs and trap speed of 118.3 flywheel HP is around 599....that is almost 80HP more than factory spec. Little extra boost is always fun and BMW/Alpina need to learn and make sure to setup a Dinan flash B7 as press car next time.
The whole thing is questionable to me ...why would you not test the SWB xDrive?
chrischeung commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmoreslim View Post
The whole thing is questionable to me ...why would you not test the SWB xDrive?
The likely cause is that BMW had that car in its test fleet at the time. They don't keep every model variation available, and they have to balance logistics of how many days the reviewers want the car for, where and when etc.

I think the RWD car is probably sportier than the xDrive, so the ideal car for the test would have been the SWB RWD B7. The Audi only comes in SWB AWD (unless they made the LWB an option/available for the latest version).
filmoreslim commented:
October 30, 2012, 3:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
The likely cause is that BMW had that car in its test fleet at the time. They don't keep every model variation available, and they have to balance logistics of how many days the reviewers want the car for, where and when etc.

I think the RWD car is probably sportier than the xDrive, so the ideal car for the test would have been the SWB RWD B7. The Audi only comes in SWB AWD (unless they made the LWB an option/available for the latest version).
I disagree on the rwd being sportier, the xDrive acceleration is better than the rwd. Maybe the rwd steering is better. I always thought the weight of the all wheel drive would be an issue, however, after seeing it first hand at Dingolfing as well as taking notice that Lamborghini and Porsche's engineers are using the latest 60/40 awd technology in their fastest cars, I'm a believer.
chrischeung commented:
October 30, 2012, 4:25 pm

Let me comment as someone who has wasted productive hours mulling the issue. I would argue that BMW don't make their sportiest cars, like the M3 and M5 cars in AWD.

Most people agree that AWD is heavier and offers less steering feel, turn in, generally speaking. What is often in debate is real world performance (or even track performance), since an AWD car can usually be driven faster by the untrained, but some argue in the hands of a professional, RWD can be faster. Regardless of speed, the majority of testers say that RWD cars offer more enjoyment since they tend to have better feedback. In slippery or adverse conditions, AWD is the clear winner.

Complicating the matter is that there is rarely 2 cars that are the same that are identical other than being AWD or RWD - usually there is something different in the engine, suspension, ride height etc. For example, the Porsche 911 Turbo does come in RWD, but as the GT2, which is a performance special and only indirectly comparable to the AWD Turbo.
Individual750LI commented:
October 30, 2012, 7:14 pm

The next E63 will come in as 4wd only.
f01driver commented:
October 30, 2012, 7:56 pm

And the 2014 e63 will supposedly get from 0-60 in just 3.4 seconds. Unreal.
ayu910 commented:
October 30, 2012, 8:13 pm

IMO RWD is much more fun and driver can push the limit higher compare with AWD. AWD most of time can enter corner little faster (pending on size of corner) but most of time RWD will exit more quickly which result in similar or better lap time. During endurance race AWD will always have faster tire/brake wear (which means more pit stop) due to entering corner with higher speed. Top speed wise, usually AWD lost more power due to distribution and as result it require more power to achieve the same high speed (80mph+) acceleration as RWD. There is a reason why Lamborghini start to offer RWD car nowadays like the Aventador LP700-2, Gallardo LP570-2, etc plus Ferrari F12 offer RWD only. Those buyers want to experience the car at maximal potential which only RWD can offer. Also, AWD can give the driver a sense of false security which can be danger. Of course, there are car that is AWD and fun to drive like the GT-R, Carrera 4S, and etc but in general RWD rule the track.

If 0-60, 1/4 mile is your thing then go all out on AWD. If intent to enjoy corner, high speed acceleration then RWD is your friend. Basically, pending on target goal just need to choose your tool wisely.
ayu910 commented:
October 30, 2012, 8:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
How did they make the car drive smaller than it is? I don't think they can do that by pushing up the horsepower. Perhaps the steering is more sensitive? Crisper turn in? The suspension more reactive? If size is the same, that's what I would expect is the difference. They already mentioned the throttle response.

I also am now wondering if Audi is severly underquoting power. Which is fine, as long as production cars are delivered that way. So if someone can provide some insight from any personal test drives comparing the two.
Sure, different calibration on the steering ECU plus aggressive alignment at expense of tire then we are all good to go! Also, I think S8 comes with non RFT which is a plus.

It would be nice the production car come with this flash, if not just need to call ABT for it
jtimmer commented:
October 30, 2012, 9:31 pm

I should have my 2013 B7 in two weeks (currently on the ship headed to NJ). I will report in on how it drives vs my last three S8's. The B7 will be SWB AWD in Alpina Blue with ivory/black interior. Can't wait. I suspect the S8 will drive/handle better but the B7 is million times better looking.
AdamG13 commented:
October 30, 2012, 10:39 pm

Definitely stands out much more as well. I've lived in both MIA and LA which are cities loaded with luxury cars, and have never seen more than a couple of Alpinas.
chrischeung commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayu910 View Post
Sure, different calibration on the steering ECU plus aggressive alignment at expense of tire then we are all good to go!
Did you get that from an Audi forum? My BMWs have always worn the inner part of the tires faster due to the camber I expect. So I wouldn't say it's specific to Audi to do that - it just makes sense from a response perspective.
ory commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:40 pm

Sat in the S8 and honestly it is one of the finest interiors I have ever seen - almost on par with Bentley. I think it is a beautiful car in/out and I would love to own one. I did test drive the s6. What a great car as well.
f01driver commented:
October 30, 2012, 11:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ory View Post
Sat in the S8 and honestly it is one of the finest interiors I have ever seen - almost on par with Bentley. I think it is a beautiful car in/out and I would love to own one. I did test drive the s6. What a great car as well.
But it's such a ugly car, the S6 is even worst. Minus the fancy LED lights and I swear you would think both cars came out 10 years ago.

I might be bias because I have the S5 but I do like the A5/S5/RS5and the R8 in terms of exterior styling, the rest of the Audi's are way too boring.
filmoreslim commented:
October 31, 2012, 12:17 am

I agree that the fun factor makes RWD a better choice. However, from a pure drag race perspective, AWD is just better performance. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, however, when Motor Trend rolls out an obvious Audi cheater car and tests it against a rwd B7 (for which we know to be slower than xdrive)...something's not right.

The highest performance Porsche sold in the US right now now is the 911 Turbo S which utilizes AWD 60/40 rear wheel bias. (Only available in AWD).

As far as the weight argument, the weight spec difference in the F01 is an additional 35 kg for xDrive which is why the acceleration numbers are better for the xDrive.

Sure, RWD is more fun but if you want pure acceleration performance from a standstill, AWD is where it's at.
filmoreslim commented:
October 31, 2012, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Let me comment as someone who has wasted productive hours mulling the issue. I would argue that BMW don't make their sportiest cars, like the M3 and M5 cars in AWD.

Most people agree that AWD is heavier and offers less steering feel, turn in, generally speaking. What is often in debate is real world performance (or even track performance), since an AWD car can usually be driven faster by the untrained, but some argue in the hands of a professional, RWD can be faster. Regardless of speed, the majority of testers say that RWD cars offer more enjoyment since they tend to have better feedback. In slippery or adverse conditions, AWD is the clear winner.

Complicating the matter is that there is rarely 2 cars that are the same that are identical other than being AWD or RWD - usually there is something different in the engine, suspension, ride height etc. For example, the Porsche 911 Turbo does come in RWD, but as the GT2, which is a performance special and only indirectly comparable to the AWD Turbo.
All excellent points by the way...especially the wasting time one. I wish I was disciplined to the point where this was uninteresting!
ayu910 commented:
October 31, 2012, 1:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Did you get that from an Audi forum? My BMWs have always worn the inner part of the tires faster due to the camber I expect. So I wouldn't say it's specific to Audi to do that - it just makes sense from a response perspective.
Just speaking in general. Factory BMW setting does spec the front camber little bit aggressively (like -1~1.5) which result in more inner tire wear. Possibility both front and back camber on the S8 are setup to even more aggressive (up to -3.5/-2.5 maybe?) with toe-out at the front for a stay flat fully engaged to the ground effect.
L0U commented:
October 31, 2012, 9:30 am

The car feels smaller due to the sport differential. In a turn it puts more power to the outside wheels. They turn faster, and rotate the car. Camber is not excessive in order to minimize tire wear.
chrischeung commented:
October 31, 2012, 10:17 am

Doesn't the B7 have a limited slip diff as well? I admit to not knowing if so. One detraction of the B7 is the weight - to make it produce the power it does, they beefed up a lot of the components, added coolers etc. Likely to the detriment of response. So if Audi didn't do similarly, or less so, that may make the car more fragile in the long term, to the benefit of performance. Nothing to back that up - just a thought.
L0U commented:
October 31, 2012, 10:52 am

The B7 does not have a limited slip diff. It adds weight, but is likely worth the extra pounds. The Audi is 4610lbs due to 100% aluminum chassis/frame. If it were built on a steel based system, it would be over 5000lbs. Audi is thinking of discontinuing the aluminum system in the next generation. Maybe due to costs?
Wolfman64 commented:
October 31, 2012, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f01driver View Post
But it's such a ugly car, the S6 is even worst. Minus the fancy LED lights and I swear you would think both cars came out 10 years ago.

I might be bias because I have the S5 but I do like the A5/S5/RS5and the R8 in terms of exterior styling, the rest of the Audi's are way too boring.
Couldn't agree more!

I looked at Audi A8's before picking the BMW and I walked away for a couple of reasons. One, the twin turbo V8 was not available yet, only the V6 (a no-go for me) and second, the exterior styling.
Especially in silver, this thing is one big plain box with a monstrosity of a grill.

For me, the Audi 5 series or R8 are the only ones worth looking at.
ayu910 commented:
October 31, 2012, 4:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Doesn't the B7 have a limited slip diff as well? I admit to not knowing if so. One detraction So if Audi didn't do similarly, or less so, that may make the car more fragile in the long term, to the benefit of performance. Nothing to back that up - just a thought.
Couldn't agree more, Audi is behind on market share so they have to be aggressive and do everything it takes. Other forum members are already buzzing on this new 4.0TT engine from Audi, especially detuned version on S6/S7 and by the example of this S8 those detuned car should able to reach 600HP just by simple ECU tune. Perfect for short term ownership like a 36 mo lease, sure don't want to be the last one holding the bag.
L0U commented:
November 1, 2012, 12:28 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...sales/1672995/

Speaking of market share.....(exerps from todays news)
Audi continued to be one of the fastest-growing premium brands in the U.S.
It was a record October for the brand and marked 22 months of sales gains in the U.S.
Sales of A8 flagship were up 54.7% it said, driven in part by the introduction of the S8 high-performance version.
The redone A6 was up 36.6% for the month and is up 96.8% year-to-date.

So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?
chrischeung commented:
November 1, 2012, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0U View Post
[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/11/01/audi-october-sales/1672995/"]So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?
It's probably because they are building better cars. And the fact they are copying Benz and BMW round logos with their 4 rings logo (do you think they'd sell as many with 4 squares or triangles?) certainly does its part.
ayu910 commented:
November 2, 2012, 2:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0U View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...sales/1672995/

Speaking of market share.....(exerps from todays news)
Audi continued to be one of the fastest-growing premium brands in the U.S.
It was a record October for the brand and marked 22 months of sales gains in the U.S.
Sales of A8 flagship were up 54.7% it said, driven in part by the introduction of the S8 high-performance version.
The redone A6 was up 36.6% for the month and is up 96.8% year-to-date.

So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?
http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/65546...-october-2012/
on the 7s major drop in Oct YTY but so far YTD is about the same, two more months so we will see. I know people are holding off b/c of new S class, maybe some alreay jump ship over to Audi.
jtimmer commented:
November 2, 2012, 9:19 am

the good news is that the residuals have climbed significantly, perhaps as an attempt to bring sales back. I am getting 60% vs Audi at 45%. That completely makes up for the price difference between the B7 and S8.
filmoreslim commented:
November 3, 2012, 7:22 pm

With a 60% residual for B7 maybe I lease trade my 750li
Zeichen311 commented:
November 5, 2012, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmoreslim View Post
Matte paint is any paint minus clear coat...any color you like...my Dingolfing tour guide and I were having a chuckle that people pay extra for that.
This gets tossed around from time to time but just for the record, it's incorrect. The matte finishes do have a clear coat protecting the color base coat. It just happens to be a matte- rather than gloss-finish clear.
filmoreslim commented:
November 5, 2012, 9:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
This gets tossed around from time to time but just for the record, it's incorrect. The matte finishes do have a clear coat protecting the color base coat. It just happens to be a matte- rather than gloss-finish clear.
That's not what I physically saw and was told at the Dingolfing plant...I believe I may have incorrectly stated that frozen paint is just the regular paint-when actually you can get any color paint in a frozen color in a a 5, 6, or 7 or M car...however, in the plant, the car does not go through the clear coat process. The paint is actually different, they may add some kind of clear element in the base paint shop, but the car does not physically get the clear coat treatment on the line. This was a major topic of discussion-the clear coat on an F02 actually weighs something like 4 kg.

http://www.youtube.com/v/khYHWhku-0E?
ChrisF01 commented:
November 5, 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmoreslim View Post
That's not what I physically saw and was told at the Dingolfing plant...I believe I may have incorrectly stated that frozen paint is just the regular paint-when actually you can get any color paint in a frozen color in a a 5, 6, or 7 or M car...however, in the plant, the car does not go through the clear coat process. The paint is actually different, they may add some kind of clear element in the base paint shop, but the car does not physically get the clear coat treatment on the line. This was a major topic of discussion-the clear coat on an F02 actually weighs something like 4 kg.

http://www.youtube.com/v/khYHWhku-0E?
Refer to above post

The BMW matte paint does have a clear coat, it's just less shiny to put it simply. You just cannot buff or wax the car, as those will flatten the clear coat, making it more shiny, which defeats the purpose of the matte finish.

After watching that video, I'd seriously consider getting a matte car. I have a CR Spotless water system, and that would be pretty easy to keep clean.
filmoreslim commented:
November 6, 2012, 2:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
Refer to above post

The BMW matte paint does have a clear coat, it's just less shiny to put it simply. You just cannot buff or wax the car, as those will flatten the clear coat, making it more shiny, which defeats the purpose of the matte finish.

After watching that video, I'd seriously consider getting a matte car. I have a CR Spotless water system, and that would be pretty easy to keep clean.
I agree on how great the paint looks. However, for me, it is impractical to think that I'd be able to immediately remove every bug, bird drop, bit of road tar, or anything else corrosive. Make no mistake about it, there may be some level of "clear" element to the paint, but it hardly serves as a protective coat. The paint is super fragile. It looks great, though.
BMW 3-SERIES commented:
November 6, 2012, 2:42 am

Audi ranked almost last on ConsumerReports and JDPower dependability list. The S8 looks like it has down syndrome to be honest. Idc how fast it is, I would go Alpina not only cause I am a BMW enthusiast but I've owned and been around Audi and hate their way of everything. I bet you those numbers are inflated and BS. I would still put my money on that B7. Your telling me the S8 is as fast as a Z06? Don't think so.
L0U commented:
November 7, 2012, 12:32 pm

somehow I have a "feeling" that consumers reports would be thrown aside if bmw ranked last.......come on man...you'd buy the bimmer anyway?

Have some self respect and stop grasping at straws. Sometimes its ok to for the bad guys to be better. I accept ones opinion on feel/looks ect....but the rest is denial.
JBsZ06 commented:
November 7, 2012, 11:20 pm

I m hearing RINGER when I hear a car that lists 520 flywheel hp and delivers 479 wheel hp .....through an all wheel drive system no less...the drivetrain loss makes this all the more suspect..

Does anyone question the logic of a full size awd 4400 lb sedan outperforming the rest of the Audi lineup?

ECU tunes are simple with turbocharged motors to provide winners and elevate the image of a brand..

I dont drive a BMW or an audi and I think they are both wonderful luxury sports sedans...

Still 479 wheel hp doesn't add up ..

The 600 lb heavier Bentley with a warmed over tt V8 does zero to 60 mph in 4.5 seconds and does the quarter mile in 12.5 seconds @ 111 mph..(,ptprweek video show)

600 lbs is heavier but not so drastic that the acceleration times would be so different..

I'm surprised the porsche panamera turbo is slower than this S8 as well..Again surprising...
L0U commented:
November 8, 2012, 9:52 am

while your chasing down ringers....take a peek at M5 rated 560chp....laying down 530whp on a dyno....get back to us with the same enthusiasm please. The bmw crowd understand forced induction cars being under rated....only the ones looking in from afar are questioning this. I believe the M5 is hugely under rated, 530 vs s8s 480....thats 50 more, and its 400cc bigger...all is well.

Panamera turbo is 4400lbs, and has less hp than both these cars.

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=762953
chrischeung commented:
November 9, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0U View Post
Panny turbo is 4400lbs, and has less hp than both these cars.
FYI, Panny = Panasonic, not Panamera.
Camera45 commented:
November 16, 2012, 10:13 am

I have a 2013 B7 and a 2009 R8. Both give a 4.2 0-60 time, but are completely different in every way except how long it takes to get to 60 MPH.
tturedraider commented:
November 19, 2012, 3:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtimmer View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT0r6...layer_embedded

have you guys seen this? It figures that after three S8's I am now swithing to the B7 (arrives in 2 weeks). Still, performance aside, the new Audi looks boring compared to the Alpina.



http://wot.motortrend.com/super-seda...ad-281025.html
Just a quick comment - didn't watch the vid, just enough to confirm the reviewer was who I thought. That guy is an absolute idiot. Can't get his facts straight half the time. imo his reviews are worthless.
L0U commented:
November 21, 2012, 5:59 pm

Luckily a different independant reviewer found the identical results. Carlos drove the S8 and B7, then made independant reviews. Jonny L did a review of B7, vs. S8.

Matt Farah found the same findings, car and drivers results are incoming very soon.

To summarize the general take. B7 is a beter version of the 750i, although feeling very heavy, it eivers a pleasant comfortable drive. S8 is an axe murderer in the straights, and holds its own in the turns, feeling smaller than it is, but at the expense of a steering fel that doesn't give feedback to the tires limits of traction.

Once cost is factored in, the S8 delivers the goods, and the B7 offers an alternative for some buyers valuing loks, or perhaps exclusiveness, or brand loyalty, or a mix of things, since it does perform admiraby too in the big picture of large sport lux.

Similar read from Ron
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...bmw_alpina_b7/
ayu910 commented:
November 22, 2012, 3:16 am

Very tempting to order an S8 but if it doesn't reach 60 in 3.5sec can Audi take it back? I doubted since the spec claim 4sec. I guess by then the option would be to call ABT for a ECU tune.
AutoUnion commented:
November 22, 2012, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayu910 View Post
Couldn't agree more, Audi is behind on market share so they have to be aggressive and do everything it takes.
What are you talking about? Only in the US, is Audi behind in market share. Worldwide they outsell Mercedes, etc. Only BMW sells more worldwide. They're hardly behind and need to be aggressive. They're just putting out better products than BMW now.
AutoUnion commented:
November 22, 2012, 4:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
And the fact they are copying Benz and BMW round logos with their 4 rings logo (do you think they'd sell as many with 4 squares or triangles?) certainly does its part.
What is this crap? The 4 ring logo goes all the way to their roots, back when they were AutoUnion.

The four rings represent the 1932 merging of four previously independent car companies Audi, DKW, Horch and Wanderer. They called themselves AutoUnion, until they brought back the Audi name.

Hardly copying the 3 pointed star or the roundel.
AutoUnion commented:
November 22, 2012, 4:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW 3-SERIES View Post
Audi ranked almost last on ConsumerReports and JDPower dependability list.
What crap. How do you explain these ratings? Audi higher than BMW in BOTH JDPower and CR.

Audi is the most reliable Euro brand and top-non Japanese brand (according to CR)

CR


JDpower


Quote:
I bet you those numbers are inflated and BS.
How so? Just because they make the BMW look like a joke and you don't like Audi doesn't make them bull****. Both BMW and Audi underrate their cars. Look at the N54/55 cars. They make much more than the quoted 300hp. Now BMW is caught lying. And it's not just the B7's power ratings. They also lied on the 328i's fuel economy ratings and had to change them.
ayu910 commented:
November 22, 2012, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
What are you talking about? Only in the US, is Audi behind in market share. Worldwide they outsell Mercedes, etc. Only BMW sells more worldwide. They're hardly behind and need to be aggressive. They're just putting out better products than BMW now.
Com’on, “ONLY” in the US is huge since we all know it is single largest market.

Audi always had great products like RS4, RS6 sedan/avant, Q7 V12 TDI, etc but never reach the US market. Audi's challenges is matter of bussiness model not product.
chrischeung commented:
November 22, 2012, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
What is this crap? The 4 ring logo goes all the way to their roots, back when they were AutoUnion.

The four rings represent the 1932 merging of four previously independent car companies Audi, DKW, Horch and Wanderer. They called themselves AutoUnion, until they brought back the Audi name.

Hardly copying the 3 pointed star or the roundel.
So why didn't they use 4 triangles or 4 squares? The 3 pointed star and Roundel pre date 1932. A bit of a coincidence that of all the shapes in the world, square, rectangle, star etc., they happened to choose a "circle", being in use by BMW and Benz.
Zeichen311 commented:
November 23, 2012, 10:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
So why didn't they use 4 triangles or 4 squares? The 3 pointed star and Roundel pre date 1932. A bit of a coincidence that of all the shapes in the world, square, rectangle, star etc., they happened to choose a "circle", being in use by BMW and Benz.
Oh, come on ... reaching, much?

Try sketching a logo with four squares, or triangles or whatever. Circles are more aesthetically pleasing...that's just a truism of basic design. Simplicity is another design hallmark of an effective logo. You could reasonably speculate that the four rings were also meant to suggest four wheels (not AWD, as many who never heard of AutoUnion assume ... just wheels). The four rings logo is an excellent design, full stop. It neither imitates nor is easily confused with any of its competittors, which is critically important for a trademark.

A great many auto marques worldwide are based on circles or ovals: Ford, Toyota, Infiniti, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Subaru, Buick, SAAB, VW, Opel, Alfa Romeo ... this is just off the top of my head. BMW no more invented the concept of a roundel than the internal combustion "motor" (their middle name).
Faisal740Li commented:
November 24, 2012, 2:18 pm

I was really stunned B7 being out performed by an S8, how could this happen. Had to come bck to accept reality. But never did like the audi they never looked pretty and/or elegant.
AutoUnion commented:
November 24, 2012, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Oh, come on ... reaching, much?

Try sketching a logo with four squares, or triangles or whatever. Circles are more aesthetically pleasing...that's just a truism of basic design. Simplicity is another design hallmark of an effective logo. You could reasonably speculate that the four rings were also meant to suggest four wheels (not AWD, as many who never heard of AutoUnion assume ... just wheels). The four rings logo is an excellent design, full stop. It neither imitates nor is easily confused with any of its competittors, which is critically important for a trademark.
This is a good point. If anything, Hyundai should be in hot water over their logo. Sort of looks like a melted Honda logo