Motor Trend Head 2 Head BMW 335i vs Cadillac ATS vs Mercedes-Benz C350

by Bimmerfest.com Member - Chris90 on November 24, 2012, 11:09 pm


Quote:
The latest episode of "Head 2 Head" from Motor Trend is a battle of the little luxury sixes, looking to see which of these $50,000 sport sedans, all equipped with automatic transmissions, can lay the largest claim to your money: the 321-horsepower, six-speed Cadillac ATS 3.6, the 302-horsepower, seven-speed Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport or the 300-horsepower, eight-speed BMW 335i.

Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/
BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 1BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 2BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 3BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 4BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 5BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 6BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 7BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 8BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 9BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 10BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 11BMW-2012-3-Series-F30-Spain 12


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423 responses to Motor Trend Head 2 Head BMW 335i vs Cadillac ATS vs Mercedes-Benz C350

bmw_or_audi commented:
November 24, 2012, 11:29 pm

I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?
beden1 commented:
November 24, 2012, 11:44 pm

BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:08 am

I think BMW should have left the 3 and 5 Series alone, and continued their traditions as sport sedans. If they wanted to attract buyers who want a more comfortable ride, and things like Luxury line models, then they should have introduced that with the 4 Series, the redesigned 6 Series and the 7 Series.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?
It doesn't matter.

Motor Trend is in the magazine business. You sell a lot more magazines when you print a controversial story, and there's nothing more predictable than BMW winning a sport sedan comparo.

The F30 is a bigger, softer version of it's prior forms and it's to be expected that so-called "enthusiast" rags won't see the value in it. BMW has built the car to the specs that it's customers want, and clearly their customers want a softer ride with a boatload of creature comforts. No such comparo for that.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.
I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ
Just checked KBB for the value of my car with 5,000 miles. It's still worth more than you paid for yours. $50,603
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I think BMW should have left the 3 and 5 Series alone, and continued their traditions as sport sedans. If they wanted to attract buyers who want a more comfortable ride, and things like Luxury line models, then they should have introduced that with the 4 Series, the redesigned 6 Series and the 7 Series.
I think BMW knows what it's doing. They have decades of sales information, millions of datapoints, they know how to build the precise cars that their customers want.

Last time I looked, the F30 was performing very well, the MB is no different than it was in years past, and the ATS isn't selling.

Every curve, every dimension, every feature on the F30 is there because that's what BMW's customers told them they wanted. Do not question the car or it's intended buyers. You aren't one of them. You're not the target audience. If you liked the car, it would be a shock. The fact that you detest it is precisely what's supposed to happen.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Just checked KBB for the value of my car with 5,000 miles. It's still worth more than you paid for yours. $50,603
Sure, you put up an ad at that price, tell me how many offers you get. Low mileage doesn't matter when the car looks as old as that.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.
You should of seen this coming when they introduced the F01 7 series. It was only a matter of time that it trickled down the line. The average age of BMW owners is somewhere around 47. I think BMW is exactly where it wants to be for awhile. They've completely changed their cars to signify this.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Sure, you put up an ad at that price, tell me how many offers you get. Low mileage doesn't matter when the car looks as old as that.

BJ
Actually, I would probably get over that price since my car is so clean and has every option except for parking sensors. I also feel the value will stay strong for a number of years because BMW did not make many 335is' particularly in convertibles.

Used car values are also currently rising due to the many cars lost during hurricane Sandy, and there is an overall shortage of quality used cars for the years 2009 through 2011 because car sales in general were down during that period due to the recession.

But, I'm not interested in selling my car.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?
I just watched the review.

The first 60% of the review deals with infotainment systems, and the BMW blew away the Mercedes and destroyed the Cadillac.

The last 40% of the review deals with driving dynamics, and the reviewer says that the Cadillac drives better in the curves than it does in a straight line, the Cadillac has a harsh ride that Cadillac customers will not appreciate, and the Cadillac needs a new transmission. So, of course, Cadillac wins. LOL.

All that's needed to make enthusiast magazines happy is a car that's not good to drive the way normal people drive it- on city streets and on the highway. They bring three cars to a canyon and declare the flawed car with no customer base the winner. What a scam.

But it'll sell magazines, and that's what's important.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Actually, I would probably get over that price since my car is so clean and has every option except for parking sensors. I also feel the value will stay strong for a number of years because BMW did not make many 335is' particularly in convertibles.

Used car values are also currently rising due to the many cars lost during hurricane Sandy, and there is an overall shortage of quality used cars for the years 2009 through 2011 because car sales in general were down during that period.

But, I'm not interested in selling my car.
Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:39 am

You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right? Check out "Competitive Benchmarking" section in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS

More articles from MT interviewing Cadillac

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows...ts_first_look/

The review hits on what the previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback has been on the F30.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right?

The review has been hitting the forum readers previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package.
Yeah, The M Sport stuff will help make the steering feel go from 'light and boring' to 'give your muscles a work out and boring'.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right?

The review hits on what the previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback has been on the F30.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package.
The ultimate goal of a sport sedan is to sell millions of units to happy customers. The ATS isn't selling, the Mercedes has plateaued, and the F30 is thriving. All this other rhetoric about "sporty dynamics" matters only to a very small niche of people.

Motor Trend spent 60% of the video talking about infotainment systems. The headline should have been "Infotainment Comparo - BMW By A Landslide" on two accounts: First, it would have been a more honest representation of this bogus comparo, Second, infotainment systems mean more to the average buyer in this segment than steering feel by a ratio of about 100:1.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ
Don't most BMW's fall into that category? I honestly can't call the M cars sports cars anymore. They're too bloated and dull to drive. Sports sedan/Coupe/Convertible would be more fitting.
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The ultimate goal of a sport sedan is to sell millions of units to happy customers. The ATS isn't selling, the Mercedes has plateaued, and the F30 is thriving. All this other rhetoric about "sporty dynamics" matters only to a very small niche of people.

Motor Trend spent 60% of the video talking about infotainment systems. The headline should have been "Infotainment Comparo - BMW By A Landslide" on two accounts: First, it would have been a more honest representation of this bogus comparo, Second, infotainment systems mean more to the average buyer in this segment than steering feel by a ratio of about 100:1.

BJ
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ
When did you own a 3 Series convertible (335i or 335is or otherwise)? And, in my Porsche, I don't have to pretend to be anybody else.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
There's always Porsche. I hope to own a Cayman one day. Driving pleasure maximized to it's fullest.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
Most people looking to buy a BMW probably only care about the badge, but there is a core group of BMW owners who are going to be turned off by the softening of the brand. This will open up opportuntities for other car manufacturers to offer what BMW no longer produces. I think this hurts BMW in that the enthusiast market is significant and is a strong benefit to their image sales.

Lexus is coming out with what looks to be a strong competitor car, and Porsche is rumored to be coming out with a priced BMW competitor as well (to name but a couple).
trinipirate commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:02 am

sorry but part of why i buy a car depends on looks too. the benz on the inside is still ancient, i can't get past the ATS's ugly dated body, and i would get the 335 in a heartbeat. followed by the benz, and stick in a volvo (yes i said volvo) or audi before the ATS. all in the same class of course.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
There's always Porsche. I hope to own a Cayman one day. Driving pleasure maximized to it's fullest.
You're already driving one of the best all around performance cars on the planet.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Don't most BMW's fall into that category? I honestly can't call the M cars sports cars anymore. They're too bloated and dull to drive. Sports sedan/Coupe/Convertible would be more fitting.
Definitely.

Beden acts like he's driving an M3 and he's an expert on the E93 and F30 and the BMW brand as a whole when he only has 5,000 miles on his 335i in 26 months. Not sure why he's here ragging on the F30 when he's got the E9X forum to play in.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
I'm sorry that that's the way it is, but nothing anyone can do about it.

The baby boomers carried the 3 Series since the 80's, and they're in their 50's and 60's now and they want slightly larger cars with less harsh driving dynamics. These people have been in BMW products for 20 or 30 years and they'll lose them if they make the car smaller and tighter. There's a reason the 1 Series exists and the 2 Series is rumored, they'll cater to the other niches.

For myself, I wanted an E90 that was slightly bigger, slightly softer, and loaded with creature comforts so I'm quite pleased with the F30.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
When did you own a 3 Series convertible (335i or 335is or otherwise)? And, in my Porsche, I don't have to pretend to be anybody else.
I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Definitely.

Beden acts like he's driving an M3 and he's an expert on the E93 and F30 and the BMW brand as a whole when he only has 5,000 miles on his 335i in 26 months. Not sure why he's here ragging on the F30 when he's got the E9X forum to play in.

BJ
It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Most people looking to buy a BMW probably only care about the badge, but there is a core group of BMW owners who are going to be turned off by the softening of the brand. This will open up opportuntities for other car manufacturers to offer what BMW no longer produces. I think this hurts BMW in that the enthusiast market is significant and is a strong benefit to their image sales.
Great point.

Problem is, Cadillac isn't the brand to take advantage of that tiny slice of the BMW owning population. Neither is Lexus. The only options are Audi and Mercedes and both have taken their cut, not going to get any more enthusiasts, BMW still king of the hill.

As for image sales, you know how Cadillac still suffers for the duds of the 1980's? Well turnabout is fair play and BMW perception will benefit from the great cars of the 1980's and 1990's even as the edge is taken off the 3 Series and it gets sedated.

It's clear that the F30 is patterned after the E39 and that eventually there will be a 2 Series patterned after the E46. Best of all worlds. This entire conversation is moot as a result. BMW protected its bread-and-butter, launched it before the 2 Sedan. Not rocket science here.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ
An E93 328i is not a fair comparison to an E93 335is, IMO, except they are both BMWs and both have convertible tops.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.
Go rent an F30 335i M-Sport with Adaptive M suspension for a week and then report back with your expert opinion. Would love to hear it.

BJ
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ
Can't really call yourself a 3 series hard core enthusiast unless you've been in one since the E30s. Or at least driven all iterations of the 3 series from the initial E21 on up.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:17 am

e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.
Now that's more 3 series experience than any E9x or F30 owner. I'll take Beden's word over BJ all day.

Great point & choice on the 335is vert, closest thing the E9x line comes to the E46 ZHP.

320i= E21 or E30?
533i= E28
740iL= E38, I'd own one if I didn't like the cost of repairing major failures for BMW V8s
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Great point.

Problem is, Cadillac isn't the brand to take advantage of that tiny slice of the BMW owning population. Neither is Lexus. The only options are Audi and Mercedes and both have taken their cut, not going to get any more enthusiasts, BMW still king of the hill.

As for image sales, you know how Cadillac still suffers for the duds of the 1980's? Well turnabout is fair play and BMW perception will benefit from the great cars of the 1980's and 1990's even as the edge is taken off the 3 Series and it gets sedated.

It's clear that the F30 is patterned after the E39 and that eventually there will be a 2 Series patterned after the E46. Best of all worlds. This entire conversation is moot as a result. BMW protected its bread-and-butter, launched it before the 2 Sedan. Not rocket science here.

BJ
I really don't care about the Cadillac and I agree with you that it's a moot point. But, and as I stated before, I wish BMW left the 3 Series as their sports sedan and did what they did with the F30 to a 4 Series. There are many years of 3 Series tradition that they tampered with (and that includes the 5 Series which I did spend a day with a new 535i loaner that was nicely equipped).
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:26 am

Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah
I was driving in my car with the top down today (which has a black interior) and was thinking how much I liked it over the lighter options that have several colors going on in the interior and kinda look too busy.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

BJ
You are paying less for your F30 L328i than your E90 M328i, so your new F30 L328i is cheaper to have.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah
Good point, I don't know what he was complaing about the interior colors, all three models have more interesting color choices, in fact I had seen most of them, the ATS's red interior was the more interesting one of all.

He also complained about ATS being too harsh, it was only so in the sport mode. The F30 is softer. Unfortunately BJ is right, BMW is going more and more after those who care more about luxury, comfort, and gagetry, than driving. But also unfortunately, BJ thinks no one should complain about such trend. More unfortunate is he thinks every Bimmer driver thinks like him.

BTW, the comparison used an F30 335i Sport line, an ATS 3.6 Premium line, and a C350 Sport line. The 335i should have DHP, given the $55,870 MSRP, the ATS should have LSD and MRC, given the $49,185 MSRP.
UnderSteer commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.
So now the guy that buys cars that are meant to be driven slowly to impress the downtrodden has become an authority on vehicle dynamics. Unfortunately there is more to understanding vehicle dynamics than parroting what you read in a magazine review about cars you have never driven on a tracks you have never been to. With all due respect I seriously doubt that without doing a Google search our friend Mr. James could come up with a good description of oversteer vs. understeer, has ever corrected a slide, knows what trail braking is or has ever driven a car remotely close to the limits or can heel and toe downshift (or drive an MT at all). BJ should stick to his forte (imaginary status and made up marketing data) because his imaginary road tests are seriously lacking credibility.

(P.S. Until the 4 Series is released the E92 and E93 are the latest models of the 3 Series Coupe and Cabrio.)
lqaddict commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ
If memory does not betray me you leased a 328i e93 with no creature comforts as you call it. Biden has a 335is loaded with creature comforts, with absolutely different driving dynamics DNA than the 328i.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Bimmer App
MMME30W commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:42 am

Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.
woodswatchco commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:09 am

I vowed to never listen to anything Motor Trend says after they named the Chevy Caprice car of the year in 1990. They've never gotten one cent of my money. Total joke.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/
woodswatchco commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:19 am

I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want. This is the #1 reason that I left Audi for BMW. Audi offers the least horsepower in the class, no special colors, no body kit, no special wheels, no rear wheel drive, no option to delete sunroof, etc. Mercedes doesn't even offer a manual in the C250! The 328i may have softened a bit but it has also been improved in a million other ways. It is still the best sports sedan out there and you can choose which flavor you want instead of "one size fits all".



Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.
Track comparisons are good up to a point but IMO the way the behave drive on public roads is far more relevant to the way these cars will be driven in the real world.
woodswatchco commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:25 am

Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car..
OMG our dirty little secret is out!

CA
johnc_22 commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want.
jmsent commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.
I've owned at least one of each from the E30 on. I had 2 E46's, including a 330i and an M3.
I don't think the E46 was the pinnacle at all. The E36 was lighter and had a more connected feel. My E30 was simple, very light, and a blast to drive. It came standard with limited slip diff. The I6 (post ETA) engine had some of the best mechanical sounds ever. My E46 330i had a lot of problems; all of them well documented by others on these boards. As a whole, I'd say it was a solid car, but kind of boring. My M3 was a great track car but poorly suited as a daily driver. My E92, one HPFP not withstanding, has been by far the most reliable of all the BMW's I've owned. I also found it capable of filling the shoes of both my old 330 and my M3. Not perfect, but pretty darned good. IMO, each generation has had its strength and weaknesses, but on the whole, the 3 series has moved forward and kept up with the times and mostly ahead of the competition throughout the years. I'm sure BMW will make appropriate adjustments to address the points of the MT comparo(such as they are). It isn't the first time a 3 series lost, and usually by the next model year, they were right back on top.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.
Florida dealers have been playing that game for years. I think they call it the "Black Book". Most dealers that I've dealt with here in PA work off of KBB dealer trade prices for a clean well maintained car (aside from negotiating for the price of the new car). They will only offer auction prices for cars that are less desirable. If I were to sell my BMW, I would sell it to a private party. I also have the extended warranty which would make my car more desirable.
tsoc88 commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ
BJ - You had the entry level E93 - underpowered - a car that couldn't get out of its own way, particularly with the leatherette no status option.
The 335i E93 is something you've never driven and you probably would be afraid of driving it.
I put mine thru its paces on the autobahns @ 150 mph and believe me you have no idea what you are talking about.
UnderSteer commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:47 am

.*******>********>
*******>********>











Quote:*******>*******>********>********>
Originally Posted by woodswatchco
I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car..















Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
OMG our dirty little secret is out!

CA

OK, Who let the cat out of the bag?!
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:50 am

[QUOTE=UnderSteer;7212692

OK, Who let the cat out of the bag?! [/QUOTE]

You have an amazing collection of cars. How do you store them?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:21 am

OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Stop touting it as some kind of drivers car.

My OLD E36/7 has tons of feel, feedback, sound, and has no driving aids other than ABS if you want to call it that. It's still heavy at 2950-3050lbs. But it's pure and nothing E9x without a roof can touch it. I am not even factoring in straight line as my 13lbs of boost has really skewed the equation. Looks, the E93 also gets slayed. I see them all day driven by women. My M Roadster was not even offered with an automatic and the lines, oh how well they have aged. I have had people ask me if it's "The new Z" semi-regularly.

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Stop touting it as some kind of drivers car.

My OLD E36/7 has tons of feel, feedback, sound, and has no driving aids other than ABS if you want to call it that. It's still heavy at 2950-3050lbs. But it's pure and nothing E9x without a roof can touch it. I am not even factoring in straight line as my 13lbs of boost has really skewed the equation. Looks, the E93 also gets slayed. I see them all day driven by women. My M Roadster was not even offered with an automatic and the lines, oh how well they have aged. I have had people ask me if it's "The new Z" semi-regularly.

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.
Whatever floats your boat, but, I thought the M Roadster was a "girls" car as they were the only ones who could fit comfortably? M Roadsters for the girls and Corvettes for the men!

We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.
The guy did have some off beat comments, but you picked three things that showed you are really off yourself.

First, he intentionally switched the names of the two headquarters to joke about BMW and MB shamelessly copy each other's infotainment system designs.

Secondly, and this is the fault of all reviews regarding the Cadillac CUE. They did not realize there are buttons on the steering wheels, more importantly, the ATS has the most robust voice command system of all three. The CUE is designed to not have to use the touch screen, rather the steering wheel and voice, while you drive. It is of course GM's own fault not to emphasize such safety approach enough. Having said that, it is a wholesale change of the operation of the infotainment system, resistance is expected.

Thirdly, he is not the only one who has said the ATS has the edge in handling in this segment. In fact most reviewers agreed on the ATS being the best handling in the segment.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)
You didn't get the joke he was making? He pretty clearly said that they all copy each other, so BMW design is based on what Benz is doing and vice versa.
UnderSteer commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:46 am

I have never put down the F30 as I have never driven one. Even if I did my opinion would certainy carry no weight since the fact that I have an E93 (M3) that does not have an MT outs me as a non-enthusiast.

I am sure the F30 is a very good car but the fact of the matter is that a large number of professional car reviesers have commented that the F30 has lost a some of what they considered to be traditional BMW feel. Perhaps they are full of crap but I think this is a subject that warrants discussion as a significant number of people who drive E9x will be on the market for a new car in the near future and will certainly be looking at the F30 and its competitors.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:49 am

As far as BJ's accusation the E90 drivers complain about F30, because they cannot afford the new one, as I have pointed out, BJ continued to brag about his F30 being cheaper than his previous E90, I don't know he is even aware that he is the cheapskate here
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Whatever floats your boat, but, I thought the M Roadster was a "girls" car as they were the only ones who could fit comfortably? M Roadsters for the girls and Corvettes for the men!
You're reaching.

I never said you were comparing the E93 to the F30. Read what I said again.

A base Z3 1.9 maybe lol.

M Roadsters were manual only, an indication of the intention/purpose of the car.

I wound up in court for the first time in many years over slaying a C6 vette who thought I would be an easy kill. It's hard to feel manly and superior when you get romped by an old BMW.

I fit comfortably as do plenty of people of decent height. If you are 6'4, well sucks that you can't fit lol.

Here, when a known DRIVER wants to demonstrate a DRIVER'S CAR, look at what he chooses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vocpe0eZUWg

You had no defense for your amazing E93. You can bring it or your 997 against my girly car any day.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You're reaching.

A base Z3 1.9 maybe lol.

M Roadsters were manual only, an indication of the intention/purpose of the car.

I wound up in court for the first time in many years over slaying a C6 vette who thought I would be an easy kill. It's hard to feel manly and superior when you get romped by an old BMW.

I fit comfortably as do plenty of people of decent height. If you are 6'4, well sucks that you can't fit lol.
I am 6'4" and can't fit, although I imagine is it a fun car. I did try to drive a Z3 when they came out and my knees were hitting the dash.

The 335is convertible is also a fun car which I enjoy, but I did get the car so my wife could also drive and enjoy it.

I had added this piece to my previous post: We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
I have never put down the F30 as I have never driven one. Even if I did my opinion would certainy carry no weight since the fact that I have an E93 (M3) that does not have an MT outs me as a non-enthusiast.

I am sure the F30 is a very good car but the fact of the matter is that a large number of professional car reviesers have commented that the F30 has lost a some of what they considered to be traditional BMW feel. Perhaps they are full of crap but I think this is a subject that warrants discussion as a significant number of people who drive E9x will be on the market for a new car in the near future and will certainly be looking at the F30 and its competitors.
That's all well and good.

It's fine if the F30 has lost a bit of that feedback.

But that can be said for EVERY generation since the E30.

I can find flaws in every car I have ever driven. It's ok.

But at least I have driven it, and or a lot of cars that it competes with before spouting my judgement.

Reading a magazine and then making statements of your own as fact is very annoying around here.

I am not saying you are doing it, but keep in mind between 2-3 forums there are 30 threads like these.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You're reaching.

I never said you were comparing the E93 to the F30. Read what I said again.

A base Z3 1.9 maybe lol.

M Roadsters were manual only, an indication of the intention/purpose of the car.

I wound up in court for the first time in many years over slaying a C6 vette who thought I would be an easy kill. It's hard to feel manly and superior when you get romped by an old BMW.

I fit comfortably as do plenty of people of decent height. If you are 6'4, well sucks that you can't fit lol.

Here, when a known DRIVER wants to demonstrate a DRIVER'S CAR, look at what he chooses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vocpe0eZUWg

You had no defense for your amazing E93. You can bring it or your 997 against my girly car any day.
When I want to defend my car buying decisions, I would be happy to demonstrate with my Carrera GTS Cabriolet versus your M Roadster.

Also, the reviewer is demonstrating on an M Roadster, but I would bet he owns a Porsche.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I am 6'4" and can't fit, although I imagine is it a fun car. I did try to drive a Z3 when they came out and my knees were hitting the dash.

The 335is convertible is also a fun car which I enjoy, but I did get the car so my wife could also drive and enjoy it.

I had added this piece to my previous post: We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.


There are plenty of great cars, Lotus Exige/Elise, Miatas, Caterhams, Cobras that you cannot fit in. It's not the cars fault lol.

A Z3 is a worlds away from an M-Roadster, isn't an E90 M3 a long way's away from an E90 328? So driving an 1.9 when it came out, or 2.8 holds no value in this conversation lol.

Again, BJ gets guys like you, he lures you into being defensive. You go for the bate. I never said you were comparing E93 IS to the F30. The point I was making, you are in this forum without owning the mark, have negative things to say(which is fine) but then get to wax on about the particular car you drive. My point is, I too can come to other sections and wax on about my out of date car. I think it looks silly, and I am sure that is how it would come across if I did it.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
When I want to defend my car buying decisions, I would be happy to demonstrate with my Carrera GTS Cabriolet versus your M Roadster.

Also, the reviewer is demonstrating on an M Roadster, but I would bet he owns a Porsche.
Your Carrera GTS has great steering feel and feedback and sure as hell should handle better than my old antiquated M Roadster.

However, when it comes to a straight line you are out of your league with a 500hp small car. I also get to work on it myself, pay almost nothing to ensure it, and know that I was able to pay cash(WHEN STILL YOUNG) and have all my hair so no one thinks it's my midlife crisis purchase.

I have a lot of years left before my 911 purchase comes, and if anything it's going to be a GT3 which I can do track days in. The Roadster is worth very little and almost irreplaceable so it will always be in my stable.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
There are plenty of great cars, Lotus Exige/Elise, Miatas, Caterhams, Cobras that you cannot fit in. It's not the cars fault lol.

A Z3 is a worlds away from an M-Roadster, isn't an E90 M3 a long way's away from an E90 328? So driving an 1.9 when it came out, or 2.8 holds no value in this conversation lol.

Again, BJ gets guys like you, he lures you into being defensive. You go for the bate. I never said you were comparing E93 IS to the F30. The point I was making, you are in this forum without owning the mark, have negative things to say(which is fine) but then get to wax on about the particular car you drive. My point is, I too can come to other sections and wax on about my out of date car. I think it looks silly, and I am sure that is how it would come across if I did it.
If you look back at the posts, BJ was the one who brought my "old" car into the conversation. I thought I had offered some pointed opinion beforehand.

As far as any Z BMW, I really don't know much about them as they were never on my radar screen. I do mostly see women driving them, however. But, I'm sure they are enthusiasts as well.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Your Carrera GTS has great steering feel and feedback and sure as hell should handle better than my old antiquated M Roadster.

I also get to work on it myself, pay almost nothing to ensure it, and know that I was able to pay cash(WHEN STILL YOUNG) and have all my hair so no one thinks it's my midlife crisis purchase.

I have a lot of years left before my 911 purchase comes, and if anything it's going to be a GT3 which I can do track days in. The Roadster is worth very little and almost irreplaceable so it will always be in my stable.
"However, when it comes to a straight line you are out of your league with a 500hp small car." (I'm not sure what this means?)

So, you're only real argument is that I'm older (but, still have all of my hair) and buying cars to feed my mid-life crisis? How do you explain that I've had great cars since my mid 20's, and starting when I bought my first BMW?
MMME30W commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
You didn't get the joke he was making? He pretty clearly said that they all copy each other, so BMW design is based on what Benz is doing and vice versa.
Nope. Watch it again. No joke made. Just another clueless reviewer with a video camera.

Still, lot of click throughs for MT based on this article.

Must be a novelty for them.
justinnum1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:20 am

James is winning this one.
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right? Check out "Competitive Benchmarking" section in the link below.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package.

Indeed! Mr. Fiftysumpthin recapturing College days, arguably the most excellent in this life.

As offered: Student proceeding to degree

Option: M Performance Package - debonaire youth

Option: M3/4 - Summa Cum Laude; athelete
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
James is winning this one.
James is playing out of his league.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
If you look back at the posts, BJ was the one who brought my "old" car into the conversation. I thought I had offered some pointed opinion beforehand.

As far as any Z BMW, I really don't know much about them as they were never on my radar screen. I do mostly see women driving them, however. But, I'm sure they are enthusiasts as well.
Again, don't you want to be the bigger person(especially at 6'4!)...your excuse is BJ bated you into defending your purchases. That means +1 for BJ right there. I have been here long enough to see how completely entertaining that is, I often read his replies with a smile on my face.

98% of all Z cars on the road are non M-cars. So yeah, mostly automatic equipped small engine cars driven by women(they are also popular with the gay community).

That's kind of par for the course. How many E90 328's driven by women are there compared to M cars of the same platform? That's kind of the point, you have exclusivity built in when opting for the M iteration. The M-Roadster has been selected by places like Hagarty as future collectibles and written up in mags when tested as a modern or German AC Cobra. It is a car that bites when things go wrong just like earlier 911's would. So there, a bit of education for you since you admit to knowing so little and never driven the car you refer to as a "girls" car.

Meanwhile I have driven an E92 335is, as well as many iterations of M and non M 3 series.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
"However, when it comes to a straight line you are out of your league with a 500hp small car." (I'm not sure what this means?)

So, you're only real argument is that I'm older (but, still have all of my hair) and buying cars to feed my mid-life crisis? How do you explain that I've had great cars since my mid 20's, and starting when I bought my first BMW?
My statement means, that my little girly car with 500hp would slay your 911 in terms of speed as much as your 911 kills it with it's sensory feedback and handling.

I grew up with 911's, my first job as a kid was pro detailer for a Porsche retailer. I get to speak from experience, not hyperbole.

My argument is not that you are older. It's when you bring the "My 911..." argument to the table. Unfortunately it brings with it the stereotypes of age with a 911. I do not own a 911 at my age, and you did not and would not either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
James is playing out of his league.
You do not know what my league is. I may be younger than you, but I have serious automotive credentials and do not make it a habit of speaking about things I do not know about. This is something I am wondering you may not have mastered in your more advanced stage in life than myself.

Please do not think I am offended or lashing out or anything, I am just having a bit of fun exposing/noticing weak points in your statements.
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Too true! And that would be exactly 2 tons, mine.

But, I like the hard top - woulda bought a Porsche for much much much much much better handling & ride if not for it.

E93 also available as M3....still not a Porsche, but moves better, understatedly.

335i can get to 60 in skosh under 4 sec. Other benefits, modded.

Careful....


.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Again, don't you want to be the bigger person(especially at 6'4!)...your excuse is BJ bated you into defending your purchases. That means +1 for BJ right there. I have been here long enough to see how completely entertaining that is, I often read his replies with a smile on my face.

98% of all Z cars on the road are non M-cars. So yeah, mostly automatic equipped small engine cars driven by women(they are also popular with the gay community).

That's kind of par for the course. How many E90 328's driven by women are there compared to M cars of the same platform? That's kind of the point, you have exclusivity built in when opting for the M iteration. The M-Roadster has been selected by places like Hagarty as future collectibles and written up in mags when tested as a modern or German AC Cobra. It is a car that bites when things go wrong just like earlier 911's would. So there, a bit of education for you since you admit to knowing so little and never driven the car you refer to as a "girls" car.

Meanwhile I have driven an E92 335is, as well as many iterations of M and non M 3 series.
Now who is baiting who?

Thank you for educating me on the BMW Z cars. Now I know that they are considered to be cars for women and gay people.
justinnum1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:33 am

CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
James is playing out of his league.

James has scored a goal!

Attachment 350740
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Too true! And that would be exactly 2 tons, mine.

But, I like the hard top - woulda bought a Porsche for much much much much much better handling & ride if not for it.

E93 also available as M3....still not a Porsche, but moves better, understatedly.

335i can get to 60 in skosh under 4 sec. Other benefits, modded.

Careful....
The E93 has plenty going for it. So does an F30. But people want to be sooo vocal about faults of one, well why not the other lol.

I assume your 0-60 quotes are modded and not stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Now who is baiting who?

Thank you for educating me on the BMW Z cars. Now I know that they are considered to be cars for women and gay people.


Just having fun at your expense lol.

And yes, Z cars, just like many BMWs are purchased by women and people who like the Roundel. The M cars bring something different to the table. On my home forum and at meets, M Roadster and Coupe owners are some of the most helpful, knowledgeable and non ego maniacs I have ever encountered. This is the opposite of 90% of the rest of the community I have found over the years.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
James has scored a goal!

Attachment 350740
It's Jameson...like the Whiskey. Just an FYI
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Now who is baiting who?

Thank you for educating me on the BMW Z cars. Now I know that they are considered to be cars for women and gay people.

Hard truth is: E93 has been touted as the Gay vehicle of choice.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
My statement means, that my little girly car with 500hp would slay your 911 in terms of speed as much as your 911 kills it with it's sensory feedback and handling.

I grew up with 911's, my first job as a kid was pro detailer for a Porsche retailer. I get to speak from experience, not hyperbole.

My argument is not that you are older. It's when you bring the "My 911..." argument to the table. Unfortunately it brings with it the stereotypes of age with a 911. I do not own a 911 at my age, and you did not and would not either.


You do not know what my league is. I may be younger than you, but I have serious automotive credentials and do not make it a habit of speaking about things I do not know about. This is something I am wondering you may not have mastered in your more advanced stage in life than myself.

Please do not think I am offended or lashing out or anything, I am just having a bit of fun exposing/noticing weak points in your statements.
You're right that I would have never owned a 911 when I was younger because I didn't like the stereotype who drove them. I wish now that I did as I probably would not have gone through so many cars trying to find the one that really feels right. After having the ZO6, I've learned that there can be too much power and that balance is what makes for a most enjoyable driving experience. No doubt like to have found with your M Roadster.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Hard truth is: E93 has been touted as the Gay vehicle of choice.
No, I thought that was the Miata and the Mini Cooper?
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It's Jameson...like the Whiskey. Just an FYI

Attachment 350741

The inestimable Mr. Beden must be very specific if he expect a similar response.

There.
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
No, I thought that was the Miata and the Mini Cooper?

The working Gay's ride.
MMME30W commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The guy did have some off beat comments, but you picked three things that showed you are really off yourself.

First, he intentionally switched the names of the two headquarters to joke about BMW and MB shamelessly copy each other's infotainment system designs.

Secondly, and this is the fault of all reviews regarding the Cadillac CUE. They did not realize there are buttons on the steering wheels, more importantly, the ATS has the most robust voice command system of all three. The CUE is designed to not have to use the touch screen, rather the steering wheel and voice, while you drive. It is of course GM's own fault not to emphasize such safety approach enough. Having said that, it is a wholesale change of the operation of the infotainment system, resistance is expected.

Thirdly, he is not the only one who has said the ATS has the edge in handling in this segment. In fact most reviewers agreed on the ATS being the best handling in the segment.
Ill possibly give you points one and two. If he was joking, it was hard to tell.

The fact Mr. Lieberman didn't realize the controls were on the wheel and/or voice command underlines my point about his incompetence, no? So why does it make him an expert on vehicle dynamics if he can't be bothered to read the owners manual?

But yes I agree a recent C&D review I read stated the ATS handling was superior to the F30. They also trashed Cue IIRC.

Great points though.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
The working Gay's ride.
So, an E93 for commuting to work, and a Miata, Mini Cooper or a Z car for the weekend jaunts?
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The E93 has plenty going for it. So does an F30. But people want to be sooo vocal about faults of one, well why not the other lol.

I assume your 0-60 quotes are modded and not stock.

Surprised myself one weather perfect near sea level run in West Marin, scoring ~4 sec 0-60 stock.

Never duplicated. Not even close. The e-diff Gods smiled that day my friend.
MMME30W commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
So, an E93 for commuting to work, and a Miata, Mini Cooper or a Z car for the weekend jaunts?

Cruisin' the 'Stro or Guerneville retreat.

Note: These are San Francisco designations.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You're right that I would have never owned a 911 when I was younger because I didn't like the stereotype who drove them. I wish now that I did as I probably would not have gone through so many cars trying to find the one that really feels right. After having the ZO6, I've learned that there can be too much power and that balance is what makes for a most enjoyable driving experience. No doubt like to have found with your M Roadster.
The Z06 with a proper interior would be hard to beat. Your 911, yes it's the complete package but look at the price compared to the Z06 you had. If GM had an extra $20-30-40k to play with, imagine what could have been done.

Your right about balance. But again, come across as arrogant and lacking in knowledge when you make a statement about my car- a car you admit to never having driven.

Me, I have not driven a C6 Z06, only C5's and non Z06. I can only speak to what I know, which is like I said, the interior.

My supercharged car, it's reasonably low tq and power delivery means it's a beast when you want it to be and can be driven near stock by how you apply the throttle. It's VERY enjoyable and quite addictive, Viper power in a Miata sized package. I would say it's a sleeper, but the blower whine is a giveaway.
Slick Willy commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:55 am

Input from someone who has recently been car shopping.....with an open mind.

I drove new leftover '11 E90 335i....fell in love with it.

They wouldn't lease the '11, so I drove 2012 F30 328. Meh. It was good "for a 4 banger"...but it needed that qualifying statement.

Dealer finally gets F30 335....back in love. Rocket ship. Tight handling. Quiet when it needs to be....beautiful music when you want it.

Read accolade after accolade about the ATS...wait and wait. Dealer finally gets one in. Much much better looking in person than in pics....but I am sorry - it still has too much "old man" aura about it....tied in with a pinch of "plastic-ey feel" that gives American cars such a bad reputation. The handling was quite good - but far from great.

I enjoyed getting back in my IS350 to leave the dealer....much more fun to drive than the ATS. Conversely....when I left the 335 test drive....I was yearning for a new car.

Drove A4....enjoyed the hell out of it....but their leases are similar to a 335....with 100 less HP. The leases on an S4 were not in the same realm as the BMW....by a long shot. (the Audis depreciate much faster....hence the larger payments)

MB wasn't in the picture - for me - I still think of old people when I think of Mercedes (just like Cadillac). I appreciate both brands....but I think both are fighting to change that image . Neither has won that battle yet. I am their demographic - 44 year old male.

Drove my IS350 (very under rated car) home and placed an order for a 335 Xdrive which is on the Rigel Leader as we speak.

Sold my Lexus and took my time in my research (2 months or so).

If you are a 'leaser' BMW is by far the best bang for the buck - IMHO. They depreciate the least of ALL the competition.....which makes for a more competitive lease. If I was buying the car....the S4 would have entered into the picture much more heavily.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The Z06 with a proper interior would be hard to beat. Your 911, yes it's the complete package but look at the price compared to the Z06 you had. If GM had an extra $20-30-40k to play with, imagine what could have been done.

Your right about balance. But again, come across as arrogant and lacking in knowledge when you make a statement about my car- a car you admit to never having driven.

Me, I have not driven a C6 Z06, only C5's and non Z06. I can only speak to what I know, which is like I said, the interior.

My supercharged car, it's reasonably low tq and power delivery means it's a beast when you want it to be and can be driven near stock by how you apply the throttle. It's VERY enjoyable and quite addictive, Viper power in a Miata sized package. I would say it's a sleeper, but the blower whine is a giveaway.
GM already did the ZR1 which is $30K more than the ZO6. I actually preferred my ZO6 because it was more of a seat of your pants sports car, but the ZR1 on paper is hard to beat.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You're right that I would have never owned a 911 when I was younger because I didn't like the stereotype who drove them. I wish now that I did as I probably would not have gone through so many cars trying to find the one that really feels right. After having the ZO6, I've learned that there can be too much power and that balance is what makes for a most enjoyable driving experience. No doubt like to have found with your M Roadster.
It occured to me
..

Your 911 so perfect...to you.

Plenty of people say after the 993 it went down hill.

So let those people come to your 997 forum and constantly tell you that.
Quinn Lasser commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...


Aaaiiieeeeee!!! Not a Lexus!! Please say it ain't so!!!!!!

My contribution to the conversation is that there's a huge difference between the ride of my 325 and the new car. I loved the first one simply because I was all about the drive and less about having a fancy dashboard. The ride was low to the ground, sporty, nimble and a blast to drive. I never bought it because I wanted a luxury car.

The new one is a huge step up in terms of comfort but I still wouldn't call it a luxury car. Yes, the steering is softer. It's slightly longer and wider and sits an inch or two higher but I'm still thinking about what the performance on the road is going to be vs: having every possible creature comfort inside.

I have to agree with what BJ said. They are building cars to appeal to their customer base.
They know what they are doing.
Slick Willy commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:59 am

side note: The guy in the review falls much more into the "hipster douche" category than the "motor head" or "enthusiast" category. I give him zero credibility. He drove the cars on different days (different shirt on in different cars). He probably had too much Hummus in his egg white and tofurky omelette on the day he drove the Bimmer

The Carlos Lago Motor Trend Review on You Tube is much more in tune with reality
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Willy View Post
Input from someone who has recently been car shopping.....with an open mind.

I drove new leftover '11 E90 335i....fell in love with it.

They wouldn't lease the '11, so I drove 2012 F30 328. Meh. It was good "for a 4 banger"...but it needed that qualifying statement.

Dealer finally gets F30 335....back in love. Rocket ship. Tight handling. Quiet when it needs to be....beautiful music when you want it.

Read accolade after accolade about the ATS...wait and wait. Dealer finally gets one in. Much much better looking in person than in pics....but I am sorry - it still has too much "old man" aura about it....tied in with a pinch of "plastic-ey feel" that gives American cars such a bad reputation. The handling was quite good - but far from great.

I enjoyed getting back in my IS350 to leave the dealer....much more fun to drive than the ATS. Conversely....when I left the 335 test drive....I was yearning for a new car.

Drove A4....enjoyed the hell out of it....but their leases are similar to a 335....with 100 less HP. The leases on an S4 were not in the same realm as the BMW....by a long shot. (the Audis depreciate much faster....hence the larger payments)

MB wasn't in the picture - for me - I still think of old people when I think of Mercedes (just like Cadillac). I appreciate both brands....but I think both are fighting to change that image . Neither has won that battle yet. I am their demographic - 44 year old male.

Drove my IS350 (very under rated car) home and placed an order for a 335 Xdrive which is on the Rigel Leader as we speak.

Sold my Lexus and took my time in my research (2 months or so).

If you are a 'leaser' BMW is by far the best bang for the buck - IMHO. They depreciate the least of ALL the competition.....which makes for a more competitive lease. If I was buying the car....the S4 would have entered into the picture much more heavily.
We own a 2011 S4 and it is a great car. I don't agree that they depreciate faster than the 3 Series BMW because Audi does not make many of them. BMW subsidizes leases by providing a higher residual which is the reason why you get cheaper lease rates. Audi does not.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It occured to me
..

Your 911 so perfect...to you.

Plenty of people say after the 993 it went down hill.

So let those people come to your 997 forum and constantly tell you that.
From what I can tell from spending time in that forum, the 993 enthusiasts feel the air cooled Porsches were the last real Porsches. The 997.2 owners know better.

The same conversations are happening over there between the 997.2 and the new 991 models. The 991 models are considered to be softer like the F30.
Slick Willy commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
We own a 2011 S4 and it is a great car. I don't agree that they depreciate faster than the 3 Series BMW because Audi does not make many of them. BMW subsidizes leases by providing a higher residual which is the reason why you get cheaper lease rates.
I wouldn't argue with that at all....the residuals are what I based my logic on. If BMW is subsidizing, then yay!!! for us, the consumer, because like I said....Audi wasn't even close in the lease competition.

I think the S4 is a fantastic car....easily the best competition to the 335.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:17 pm

Quote:
Cadillac designed the compact ATS to compete with the BMW 3 Series, but GM says the new Caddy is also cutting into CTS sales. Edmunds.com backs that up with data showing potential buyers are cross-shopping the ATS with the CTS as well as the BMW.

Automotive News spoke to the head of Cadillac sales, Chase Hawkins, who admits The General expected the ATS to cannibalize sales of the CTS. But Hawkins says a plan is in place to deal with the drop in CTS sales: make fewer of them.

"We've planned for ATS to take some CTS customers out of the market who we otherwise would have seen," Hawkins tells AN. "We definitely are going to be producing fewer CTSes next year to create some of that space for ATS."

The next-generation CTS is expected to be larger and costlier, which should better separate the two stablemates in the marketplace. As the two models find their own niches, AN speculates a few more import buyers to come back to the iconic American brand.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/25/c...ll-cut-output/
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Stop touting it as some kind of drivers car.

My OLD E36/7 has tons of feel, feedback, sound, and has no driving aids other than ABS if you want to call it that. It's still heavy at 2950-3050lbs. But it's pure and nothing E9x without a roof can touch it. I am not even factoring in straight line as my 13lbs of boost has really skewed the equation. Looks, the E93 also gets slayed. I see them all day driven by women. My M Roadster was not even offered with an automatic and the lines, oh how well they have aged. I have had people ask me if it's "The new Z" semi-regularly.

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.
I wouldn't **** on any other forums as its a waste of time unless you have something constructive worth adding to the threads. It's like a whining kid without actually telling people why they are whining and what they want.

As an E46 ZHP owner that will go with an ED F30 probably by the 3rd year of it's existence in 2014, we just wanted to get back the whole package feel of what BMW used to make and perfected with specific lines of their cars. Now if they released an E46 M3 sedan with the steering rack of the ZHP or later model E46's then that would be a great benchmark. Yes, I will keep my ZHP and add the F30.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the E36/7 but it also had it's shortcomings when it came to refinement. There were lots of rattles and misc parts that would brake over time in the interior/exterior. The E36/7 removed the LSD unless it was an M line, but it did add the DSC/ABS management that sync'd with each other, enhancing the driving dynamics. So you can't say it was a pure sports car. If you want something like that you would have to go as far back as the E21 or an AW11 MR2 like my car (no power steering, brakes, abs, lsd, suspension nannies and it's MR).

I think the most important point that the MT reviewer missed is how versatile the F30 is for the modern times. Compared to the ATS and Merc, none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife. Yes, it's rubbery, but that can be fixed with the BMW M Performance suspension parts.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Your Carrera GTS has great steering feel and feedback and sure as hell should handle better than my old antiquated M Roadster.

However, when it comes to a straight line you are out of your league with a 500hp small car. I also get to work on it myself, pay almost nothing to ensure it, and know that I was able to pay cash(WHEN STILL YOUNG) and have all my hair so no one thinks it's my midlife crisis purchase.

I have a lot of years left before my 911 purchase comes, and if anything it's going to be a GT3 which I can do track days in. The Roadster is worth very little and almost irreplaceable so it will always be in my stable.
Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:46 pm

Cutting and pasting what I posted in the E46 forum on 1 of the threads regarding the 3 series evolution. Care to agree or disagree?

This probably sums it up on the 3 series line of evolution in regards to US models:

E21= great entry into the sport compact luxury line, a smaller version of the 3.0 csl. Underpowered with the I4 but still a great chassis. Lots of quirks and rattles. Typical of a new model entry. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E30= huge leap in technology and refinement going into the 80-90s, took advantage of better EFI, abs, LSD, disc brakes, chassis tuning. IMHO, the crown jewel & best 3 series from BMW in terms of authentic driving experience with no artificial driving assists. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E36= another leap in technology, design and refinement, took advantage of OBD I & II, I6 engine only, VANOS. Carried over most of the technology advancements from the E30. The last mostly mechanical/hydraulic 3 series BMW built.

E46= great refinement above the previous model but not a leap. Fixed the quirks and rawness of the E36 such as the rattles and loose parts that would occur over time. Took advantage of Double VANOS, more advanced and refined suspension nannies- asc/dsc, abs; however it eliminated the LSD on everything except the M3. Fly-by-wire technology added which detracted the linear response of the older mechanical/hydraulic system; added a delay in response and precision but was minimal compared to the E9x with variable steering. IMHO, this was the best and most refined compromise for an authentic classic driving experience with minimal electronic nannies assistance. Used I6 engines only.

E9x= target market -> mainstream, totally different path towards the evolution of the 3 series. Took advantage of FI engines- turbocharging, variable steering, adaptive suspension, stiffer chassis even if the body got longer, bigger and heavier. The FI engines are great masterpieces, best part of the E9x evolution. They responded similar to an 8 cylinder engine with the fuel economy of a 6. The stiffer chassis made great improvements in limit driving & safety; however, the driving experience became too harsh with not enough refinement or feedback (whole car dynamics was skewed). It felt like they couldn't find the perfect balance with the engine, chassis & suspension that the E46 perfectly refined from the E36. Suspension tuning was geared for the more aggressive, probably to also compensate for the FI engines. Steering input added variable steering which added to the non-linear feel of the fly-by-wire along with more loss of precision; probably over compensation by the new tech. The interior was revamped to the more common driver oriented full controls vs the all passenger concept of keeping all the controls accessible from the center of the car. Since it was their first foray it was expectedly low quality for a first effort. Cabin insulation also seemed to be increased so external decibel levels weren't as high; numbing the sensory experience. However sometimes you need to hear the tire squeals and engine revs as a confirmation of what your hands and feet are feeling.

F9x= target market -> even more mainstream Lexus crowd. New technology are turbocharged I4, adjustable situational settings, regenerative braking, auto start/stop, dynamic handling (variable steering assist & adaptive suspension). The F30 is the closest thing to a Swiss Army knife BMW, it allows you to customize your ride depending on your driving style an mood. Unfortunately, due to this please all target it compromised on the BMW driving experience of old- the sportiest setting isn't close to the ultra aggressive E9x or the perfectly refined E46 or raw E30. It sort of falls in between the E90 and E46; imho, this is due to the extra size and weight gain of the car. The current F30 is as big and heavy as the old E39 5 series from the early 2000s. The dynamic handling package is great for people who don't make the driving experience a priority and rely on the electronic nannies to make them a better driver. The interior has improved with the F30, way better than the E90. All in all the F30 is a good all around car which just needs improvement on the top end sporty experience.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Ill possibly give you points one and two. If he was joking, it was hard to tell.

The fact Mr. Lieberman didn't realize the controls were on the wheel and/or voice command underlines my point about his incompetence, no? So why does it make him an expert on vehicle dynamics if he can't be bothered to read the owners manual?

But yes I agree a recent C&D review I read stated the ATS handling was superior to the F30. They also trashed Cue IIRC.

Great points though.
If you want to discredit him for not knowing how to use CUE, you have to discredit all reviewers, including those of C&D and CR.

A lot of people like MT reviewer Carlos' opinions. Some pointed out how he totally loved the new F30 335i when he reviewed it solo, calling it the perfect handling car in the segment.

In a later comparo between the F30 335i and 2013 S4 however, he put the S4 quite above the 335i. The fact is, people want to hear what they like to hear.

You will not like how the ATS drives, if you already don't like Caddy as a brand. Or if you drive like BJ, never goes above speed limit, don't see how one can push his car into or out of corners on public roads, you will never be able to tell the difference in driving dynamics among the 3, C, A or ATS. But if you like to take your car out on the twisties, push it as much as you can when there is no traffic around, then you can quickly tell the differences among those cars and their emphases.

Bottom line, we all see our daily driving in traffic as a burden, we all want to find things in our cars to ease such burden. Some find nice sound systems the key to make the driving more tolerable, some see comfortable leather and soft suspension as the cure, others like to take a detour every day and blast the car through twisties to forget about the dreary commute. Yet some pick what they think is the best looking car with the most pleasing colors inside and out to compensate. Of course some drive by the badge and the badge alone makes them forget all the daily stress.

Each of the above drivers will walk away with very different views about the same cars.
Elk commented:
November 25, 2012, 12:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
I. . . none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife.
Therein lies one of the major issues with the F30; like said knife, it is trying to be all things - excelling at none, oversized, and heavy.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.
Plus one.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
GM already did the ZR1 which is $30K more than the ZO6. I actually preferred my ZO6 because it was more of a seat of your pants sports car, but the ZR1 on paper is hard to beat.

Not what I was saying, that is not an example.

The platform and tooling was established nearly a decade before the Zr1 came about. The money in the Zr1 over the Z06 is carbon fiber and hardware. It's not in the development of the vehicle where the money is built in for the higher MSRP of the base car that could allow for tooling changes and material in a proper interior.

Look at the Viper. It had a comical interior too. Now that its been redesigned, they made interior a priority while also allowing for a higher MSRP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
From what I can tell from spending time in that forum, the 993 enthusiasts feel the air cooled Porsches were the last real Porsches. The 997.2 owners know better.

The same conversations are happening over there between the 997.2 and the new 991 models. The 991 models are considered to be softer like the F30.
That is the scenario I am describing, it's another analogy that applies to F30 debates we are seeing exhausted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
I wouldn't **** on any other forums as its a waste of time unless you have something constructive worth adding to the threads. It's like a whining kid without actually telling people why they are whining and what they want.

As an E46 ZHP owner that will go with an ED F30 probably by the 3rd year of it's existence in 2014, we just wanted to get back the whole package feel of what BMW used to make and perfected with specific lines of their cars. Now if they released an E46 M3 sedan with the steering rack of the ZHP or later model E46's then that would be a great benchmark. Yes, I will keep my ZHP and add the F30.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the E36/7 but it also had it's shortcomings when it came to refinement. There were lots of rattles and misc parts that would brake over time in the interior/exterior. The E36/7 removed the LSD unless it was an M line, but it did add the DSC/ABS management that sync'd with each other, enhancing the driving dynamics. So you can't say it was a pure sports car. If you want something like that you would have to go as far back as the E21 or an AW11 MR2 like my car (no power steering, brakes, abs, lsd, suspension nannies and it's MR).

I think the most important point that the MT reviewer missed is how versatile the F30 is for the modern times. Compared to the ATS and Merc, none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife. Yes, it's rubbery, but that can be fixed with the BMW M Performance suspension parts.
My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.
See above.

Also, do you know what it takes to add forced induction to a 911? Slap on a Turbo? lol. Very tight-hard engines to work on. To properly turbo one is $10-20k, or the cost of my Roadster and what I have in. Meanwhile, my blower was a bolt on kit I installed with hand tools inside of a weekend, all for $1800 in used components because they made so many that they are available used. The amount of 2nd hand NA-911 Turbo kits out there, let alone 2nd hand and they will still require engine out install and still cost tons of money.

My car may be modified, but it's girly, so it washes out.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Not what I was saying, that is not an example.

The platform and tooling was established nearly a decade before the Zr1 came about. The money in the Zr1 over the Z06 is carbon fiber and hardware. It's not in the development of the vehicle where the money is built in for the higher MSRP of the base car that could allow for tooling changes and material in a proper interior.

Look at the Viper. It had a comical interior too. Now that its been redesigned, they made interior a priority while also allowing for a higher MSRP.


That is the scenario I am describing, it's another analogy that applies to F30 debates we are seeing exhausted here.



My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.



See above.

Also, do you know what it takes to add forced induction to a 911? Slap on a Turbo? lol. Very tight-hard engines to work on. To properly turbo one is $10-20k, or the cost of my Roadster and what I have in. Meanwhile, my blower was a bolt on kit I installed with hand tools inside of a weekend, all for $1800 in used components because they made so many that they are available used. The amount of 2nd hand NA-911 Turbo kits out there, let alone 2nd hand and they will still require engine out install and still cost tons of money.

My car may be modified, but it's girly, so it washes out.

You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.
av98 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.
What's wrong with holding the previous models as a high standard compared to the current; especially if they are well deserved? Shouldn't all new cars be better than the previous or eclipse it's predecessors. And if they can't currently but offer the option to, all new car owners should be informed.

Wouldn't you want your F30 to be as close to your M roadster?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.
You dont get my point that my car was brought up to point out its annoying and silly to do so.

I dont need to be lectured on modified car comparisons as I am well aware. Its all absurd and half serious.

My car always has a chance.

We can get dumber.

There are turbo kits for my car. S52s have shown 1000whp lol. We can go round and round lol.
DerekS commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Willy View Post
side note: The guy in the review falls much more into the "hipster douche" category than the "motor head" or "enthusiast" category. I give him zero credibility.
Well said !!! Any reviewer who rates a C350 ahead of a F30-335i is an ignorant fool. Until recently, my wife owned a C350 and now drives a 2011 E93. When comparing driving dynamics, the C350 doesn't even come close to either E9X-335i or F30-335i. The C350 is a capable highway cruiser, but it is most certainly not a car for enthusiasts.

As for that Cadillac, I would not wish to be caught dead in one. Having driven BMWs since 1984, I admit I'm slightly biased, but I recognize ugly styling when I see it ! One of many reasons why the ATS is not flying off the lot !

Meanwhile, sales of F30 are increasing and my BMW shares are appreciating ! Bravo to the designers and engineers of the F30-335i M Sport ! It is a truly fabulous machine !
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 1:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.
I agree and thanks for pointing this out. I used to read these arguments over at the Corvette Forum where owners of base Corvettes would say they could beat a ZO6 if only they added a blower or turbos and a race cam. etc. The problem with this logic, is that once you modify, it is no longer a stock model that can be compared.

Anyone can modify their cars if they have the money and time to do so. IMO however, those modifications usually end up ruining the balance of the car as the design engineers originally put together.

There was one regular poster at CF that I really admired. He bought a new '06 ZO6 and still regularly races it without any modifications whatsoever except for track tires. He set out to develop his racing skills as measured by other stock ZO6s, and has since set all-time ZO6 track records in his car.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I agree and thanks for pointing this out. I used to read these arguments over at the Corvette Forum where owners of base Corvettes would say they could beat a ZO6 if only they added a blower or turbos and a race cam. etc. The problem with this logic, is that once you modify, it is no longer a stock model that can be compared.

Anyone can modify their cars if they have the money and time to do so. IMO however, those modifications usually end up ruining the balance of the car as the design engineers originally put together.

There was one regular poster at CF that I really admired. He bought a new '06 ZO6 and still regularly races it without any modifications whatsoever except for track tires. He set out to develop his racing skills as measured by other stock ZO6s, and has since set all-time ZO6 track records in his car.
You miss the point.

Its all a silly argument. You say my cars girly. That's kind of funny. My highly modified car is kind of funny.

My point is everyone wants to play up their cars while dissing someone else's. In the end there is always someone else there to one up.

I had fun calling out people who have not even driven some of the cars they ridicule.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:33 pm

We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked the C250 at Palm Beach International Airport. It would have been about $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed.

FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30. But overall it is a very nice car that I am sure most of those who own one are happy with.


CA
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked up my car. I inquired about it but it would have been close to $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed. FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30.
You should have rented a Corvette. I used to take my ZO6 to Stuart and up through Melbourne and would get people waving and giving me the thumbs up everywhere I went. Those areas are largely populated by fans of US performance cars.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You miss the point.

Its all a silly argument. You say my cars girly. That's kind of funny. My highly modified car is kind of funny.

My point is everyone wants to play up their cars while dissing someone else's. In the end there is always someone else there to one up.

I had fun calling out people who have not even driven some of the cars they ridicule.
So, you modified a girl's car to compensate for issues you may have? I'm still trying to figure out how we got to the mine is bigger than yours conversation.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Can't really call yourself a 3 series hard core enthusiast unless you've been in one since the E30s. Or at least driven all iterations of the 3 series from the initial E21 on up.
I'm not calling myself a hardcore 3 Series enthusiast at all.

Just saying that I'm a hardcore E90/F30 3 Series owner for the past 7 years and understand BMW's non-enthusiast strategy quite well as I'm that target customer. While the enthusiasts lament the growing size and softening ride, I embrace it as it's exactly what I wanted.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Now that's more 3 series experience than any E9x or F30 owner. I'll take Beden's word over BJ all day.
The review is not comparing an M3 to a Porsche.

The review is comparing a 3 Series to a Cadillac and a Mercedes in its basic trim for the average driver. Getting an enthusiasts point of view on a car that's no longer for enthusiasts is a waste of time. Might as well just copy/paste "BMW should make another E46" over and over again.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I really don't care about the Cadillac and I agree with you that it's a moot point. But, and as I stated before, I wish BMW left the 3 Series as their sports sedan and did what they did with the F30 to a 4 Series. There are many years of 3 Series tradition that they tampered with (and that includes the 5 Series which I did spend a day with a new 535i loaner that was nicely equipped).
Your wish has been granted. It's exactly what Cadillac is doing and it's failing miserably.

Today's sport sedan buyer doesn't want a compact car with an uncomfortable back seat and a bedrail for a suspension. Making a smaller, tighter 3 Series would cripple BMW in their most important vehicle.

And before you attempt to debate that statement, look at the facts. BMW has decades of realworld consumer data and the F30 reflects precisely what it's customers want. The car is bigger, softer, more comfortable. It's what we want.

The reason you dislike the F30 is because you're not the target customer. It's not a surprise. Same for this particular comparo author. "Boo hoo, the F30 is too rubbery and the ATS is very stiff, therefore the ATS is the car I want to drive." Author for an enthusiast magazine and the typical 3 Series driver two very different things.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You are paying less for your F30 L328i than your E90 M328i, so your new F30 L328i is cheaper to have
I'm just a better negotiator and leased the car in a very competitive environment (NYC) vs a very uncompetitive one (NH).

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

He also complained about ATS being too harsh, it was only so in the sport mode. The F30 is softer. Unfortunately BJ is right, BMW is going more and more after those who care more about luxury, comfort, and gagetry, than driving. But also unfortunately, BJ thinks no one should complain about such trend. More unfortunate is he thinks every Bimmer driver thinks like him.
This is not a surprise. This has been going on since the launch of the E90. Your comments are straight out of 2005.

Everything he said he disliked about the F30 is something I love. Said it was very fast but you can't feel the speed. Said it was very fast but very quiet. Said it handled very well but was better in a straight line than on twisty roads. Said it handled well but he couldn't feel feedback through the steering wheel. Hello. That's what a luxury car should be. Effortlessly fast, quiet in the cabin, smooth to steer, a rocket on the highway.

BMW sacrificed the twisty performance for the straight line because that's what it's customers do with the car- we pick up the kids from soccer practice on residential streets and we commute to work on highways. That's the priority. Getting that ride 100% right is more important than making that ride too harsh and uncomfortable for the 2x a month we find ourselves on roads that anyone could remotely call 'fun'.

BMW makes a 1 Series and a Roadster for the enthusiast types. The midsized sedan is no longer your plaything.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.
Try Carmax. Sometimes they do far better than dealers.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
So now the guy that buys cars that are meant to be driven slowly to impress the downtrodden has become an authority on vehicle dynamics. Unfortunately there is more to understanding vehicle dynamics than parroting what you read in a magazine review about cars you have never driven on a tracks you have never been to. With all due respect I seriously doubt that without doing a Google search our friend Mr. James could come up with a good description of oversteer vs. understeer, has ever corrected a slide, knows what trail braking is or has ever driven a car remotely close to the limits or can heel and toe downshift (or drive an MT at all). BJ should stick to his forte (imaginary status and made up marketing data) because his imaginary road tests are seriously lacking credibility.
You miss the point entirely.

The days of the 3 Series being an enthusiasts car are over. BMW makes a 1 Series and a Roadster for that purpose. The midsize sedan is no longer your plaything.

So when I refer to "driving dynamics", I'm talking about how it drives from the perspective of an actual buyer- someone who uses the car to take the kids to baseball practice on residential roads and who commutes to work on highways. For us, the F30 is a quantum leap in the right direction. No longer a small car that's too tight for transporting three kids, no longer a harsh car that makes passengers nauseous or cracks the eggs in the trunk.

This concept of continuing to view the BMW 3 Series as a sports car has got to stop. It's not that car anymore. Cry all you want, but these endless threads saying how the F30 isn't an E46 or the ATS is a tighter car. Hello. Not a surprise. It's by design.

Telling F30 owners we bought a bad car or it's not a "true" BMW is ridiculous because it makes the assumption that we got suckered in somehow. We didn't. We bought the car because it suits our purposes perfectly. Respect that.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.
Exactly.

It's a ludicrous "comparo", created just to cause controversy and sell some magazines, drive some hits to a website. 60% of the review is about the infotainment system, the other 40% some quick summary that contradicts the comparo on the same cars a few months ago.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want. This is the #1 reason that I left Audi for BMW. Audi offers the least horsepower in the class, no special colors, no body kit, no special wheels, no rear wheel drive, no option to delete sunroof, etc. Mercedes doesn't even offer a manual in the C250! The 328i may have softened a bit but it has also been improved in a million other ways. It is still the best sports sedan out there and you can choose which flavor you want instead of "one size fits all".
+1

Precisely. The definition of "Ultimate Driving Machine" includes the entire driving experience, not just the part where the rubber meets the road.

To the average 3 Series consumer, a quiet cabin, greater legroom, a bigger trunk, an upgraded audio system, a standard LCD screen, free Bluetooth, a classier interior, easy-to-buy "lines", and all the other goodies is what makes the experience better.

There's nothing wrong with performance enthusiasm. It's an awesome hobby so long as you target the right car for it. What the 3 Series used to be in 1995 and what it is in 2013 are two different things, time for the autocross crowd to focus on the 1 Series, the Roadster, the ATS, whatever it is that meets their criteria. The 3 Series is no longer that car.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Track comparisons are good up to a point but IMO the way the behave drive on public roads is far more relevant to the way these cars will be driven in the real world.
I wonder, is there a magazine or website that focuses on "non-performance enthusiasm"? Tests the cars the way the typical driver would use it? Cares more about trunk capacity than torque? More about a quiet cabin than an engine note?

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Whatever floats your boat, but, I thought the M Roadster was a "girls" car as they were the only ones who could fit comfortably? M Roadsters for the girls and Corvettes for the men!

We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.
The point is that you can create a "Why I Hate The F30" thread in the E46 and E90 forums where they belong.

Coming in here in our forum and sh-tting on our cars isn't a nice thing to do. Not our fault your cars are being purchased more and more by 17 year olds and your forums have fallen to pieces.

You want to participate here with the adults, fine, act like one. We are tired of you trashing our decisions every week. Enough.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
I have never put down the F30 as I have never driven one. Even if I did my opinion would certainy carry no weight since the fact that I have an E93 (M3) that does not have an MT outs me as a non-enthusiast.

I am sure the F30 is a very good car but the fact of the matter is that a large number of professional car reviesers have commented that the F30 has lost a some of what they considered to be traditional BMW feel. Perhaps they are full of crap but I think this is a subject that warrants discussion as a significant number of people who drive E9x will be on the market for a new car in the near future and will certainly be looking at the F30 and its competitors.
We are well aware of the misperception of the F30 by professional reviewers and the BMW enthusiast community. We don't need weekly reminders by E46 and E90 owners.

Is this a subject that warrants discussion? Sure. Have at it in the E90 and E46 subforums where this type of negative, downtrodden, disappointed, anti-BMW rhetoric belongs. Most of us have had our F30's for less than 6 months. We don't come here every day to hear others trash our cars. You don't see that behavior in your forums, you wouldn't like it either. We come here to celebrate our rides, share our experiences, learn a little about new features. We don't come here to endlessly defend our decisions.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Exactly.

It's a ludicrous "comparo", created just to cause controversy and sell some magazines, drive some hits to a website. 60% of the review is about the infotainment system, the other 40% some quick summary that contradicts the comparo on the same cars a few months ago.
I think the other 40% is clearly about only (his) driving enjoyment, not performance. He does say that it is extremely well performing, in a"yadi yadi yada..." kind of way. His comments are solely about whether you (he) are having fun driving the car.

If the car had dynamic handling, I wonder whether that contributed to the rubbery feel he complained about. Adaptive suspensions can respond in a non-linear progressive way, reducing that feeling of immediate and direct connection to the suspension. With very stiff suspensions, you feel like the car responds to your inputs almost immediately. I wonder the adaptive suspension smooths transitions (stiffness ramps up), giving a feeling of rubbery disconnectedness, even though ultimate performance is higher.

Of course, this is all speculation, and completely useless speculation if the car tested didn't have the adaptive suspension.

Btwy, I am not going to re-watch the review, but I think his body and head were being jiggled around far more in the ATS than in the other cars, a sure sign of a much stiffer setup (I think he even conceded that sport mode may be too stiff any kind of normal driving).
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I am 6'4" and can't fit, although I imagine is it a fun car. I did try to drive a Z3 when they came out and my knees were hitting the dash.

The 335is convertible is also a fun car which I enjoy, but I did get the car so my wife could also drive and enjoy it.

I had added this piece to my previous post: We were also not comparing the 335is to an F30. BJ commented that his E93 328i was a pedestrian car and the same as the E93 335is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
That's all well and good.

It's fine if the F30 has lost a bit of that feedback.

But that can be said for EVERY generation since the E30.

I can find flaws in every car I have ever driven. It's ok.

But at least I have driven it, and or a lot of cars that it competes with before spouting my judgement.

Reading a magazine and then making statements of your own as fact is very annoying around here.

I am not saying you are doing it, but keep in mind between 2-3 forums there are 30 threads like these.
Beden:

JV has asked you in three different posts why you feel the need to come into the F30 forum and sh-t on our cars having never driven one and having no intention of buying one.

Answer the question.

He has also asked that you reconsider this behavior and stop.

Please do that.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I wonder, is there a magazine or website that focuses on "non-performance enthusiasm"? Tests the cars the way the typical driver would use it? Cares more about trunk capacity than torque? More about a quiet cabin than an engine note?

BJ
It is called Consumer Reports. They test everything from cup holders to how the car holds up on the track, i.e. they test it from all perspectives. You read the review and decide for yourself what aspects of the car are more important to you. Sure, they give a score, but you can disregard it since it is for some arbitrary weighting of attributes that they think is appropriate for the typical consumer. You can make up your own mind based on the info they provide you.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked the C250 at Palm Beach International Airport. It would have been about $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed.

FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30. But overall it is a very nice car that I am sure most of those who own one are happy with.


CA
C63 AMG....yummy.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
It is called Consumer Reports.
That's it, unfortunately BJ will not have fun in a CR forum either, he will be battling Camry and Accord drivers, asking them to go back to Toyota or Honda forums where they belong.
Highmodulus commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:55 pm

lol, Consumer Reports. Written by the Elderly, for the Elderly. Their recommendations match their business model- stuck in 1993.

The same joke Annual Car review editions which recommend Toyota for purchase which they haven't tested not have even been delivered to the US yet. And the massive Toyota recalls, what are those? Who was the last to figure out the disastrous Civic changes, Yep CR. After all if it was good in the 90's it still must be good. Thankfully most knowledge buyers under 60 ignore CR altogether now.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 3:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Nope. Watch it again. No joke made. Just another clueless reviewer with a video camera.

Still, lot of click throughs for MT based on this article.

Must be a novelty for them.
No, you are missing it. It's clearly a joke about Benz and BMW copying each other.... i.e. BMW design is determined by whatever the folks in Stutgart at Benz HQ are thinking about, and vice versa.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Beden:

JV has asked you in three different posts why you feel the need to come into the F30 forum and sh-t on our cars having never driven one and having no intention of buying one.

Answer the question.

He has also asked that you reconsider this behavior and stop.

Please do that.

BJ
BJ-

I have given my opinion as well. Think the F30 is a lovely car in all regards vs E90, and I will likely get one within the next 6 months when my E92 lease ends, but I will admit that in doing so I am going to overlook a serious flaw in the F30 which is the horrible steering. Don't get me wrong, I like everything else about it, but the steering feel sucks. I've had every generation of 3-series since the E30 and I do acknowledge that they've all given up a bit of feel from generation to generation, but E90 -> F30 was the biggest deterioration because the new electric power steering flat out sucks. Not enough to keep me from buying one, but its very disappointing.

And I have driven one at length, this is not just me taking the reviews as gospel.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highmodulus View Post
lol, Consumer Reports. Written by the Elderly, for the Elderly. Their recommendations match their business model- stuck in 1993.

The same joke Annual Car review editions which recommend Toyota for purchase which they haven't tested not have even been delivered to the US yet. And the massive Toyota recalls, what are those? Who was the last to figure out the disastrous Civic changes, Yep CR. After all if it was good in the 90's it still must be good. Thankfully most knowledge buyers under 60 ignore CR altogether now.
CR has a big say among those who veiw cars as appliances and which ones give them most value. The majority of the drivers out there view a car as another appliance. This is in part why Toyota is one of the best sellers, and continues to increase sales ahead of other brands. It was not just good in the 90's, it is good today, and into the future.

Fortunately for BMW and many other brands, there are a lot of people who view their cars more than just appliances.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You should have rented a Corvette. I used to take my ZO6 to Stuart and up through Melbourne and would get people waving and giving me the thumbs up everywhere I went. Those areas are largely populated by fans of US performance cars.
It was tempting to rent a Corvette but I needed space for enough luggage for 2 months and since I will be visiting family I needed a back seat.
justinnum1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:11 pm

I don't hear f30 owners complaining about steering.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Beden:

JV has asked you in three different posts why you feel the need to come into the F30 forum and sh-t on our cars having never driven one and having no intention of buying one.

Answer the question.

He has also asked that you reconsider this behavior and stop.

Please do that.

BJ
BJ if I left, unsuspecting visitors may actually start buying what you say is true, when in fact, you're really a BMW marketing shill.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
BJ-

I have given my opinion as well. Think the F30 is a lovely car in all regards vs E90, and I will likely get one within the next 6 months when my E92 lease ends, but I will admit that in doing so I am going to overlook a serious flaw in the F30 which is the horrible steering. Don't get me wrong, I like everything else about it, but the steering feel sucks. I've had every generation of 3-series since the E30 and I do acknowledge that they've all given up a bit of feel from generation to generation, but E90 -> F30 was the biggest deterioration because the new electric power steering flat out sucks. Not enough to keep me from buying one, but its very disappointing.

And I have driven one at length, this is not just me taking the reviews as gospel.
This from a guy who sells BMW.

On the bright side, there will be plenty of people who will like the lighter steering because that is what they are used to in other cars they drive.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
No, you are missing it. It's clearly a joke about Benz and BMW copying each other.... i.e. BMW design is determined by whatever the folks in Stutgart at Benz HQ are thinking about, and vice versa.
You are correct. I missed it, too. Admittedly I can't stand this guy and after I heard those words I was so incredulous I missed the next few words he said. It wasn't until someone pointed it out and I went back and watched a fourth time that I caught it. I watched two additional times the first time I watched the video, because I couldn't believe the "mistake", but I was so focused on confirming I had heard the reversal correctly I didn't hear the next few words. I've seen other reviews of his and I do think he is an idiot.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You are correct. I missed it, too. Admittedly I can't stand this guy and after I heard those words I was so incredulous I missed the next few words he said. It wasn't until someone pointed it out and I went back and watched a fourth time that I caught it. I watched two additional times the first time I watched the video, because I couldn't believe the "mistake", but I was so focused on confirming I had heard the reversal correctly I didn't hear the next few words. I've seen other reviews of his and I do think he is an idiot.
Well I agree with you there, I don't care for this guy myself. Oh we'll, we can't like them all.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I don't hear f30 owners complaining about steering.
You won't hear ATS owners complain that ATS is ugly.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
This from a guy who sells BMW.

On the bright side, there will be plenty of people who will like the lighter steering because that is what they are used to in other cars they drive.
I've been (happily) out of the car biz for 3.5 years now, thank you very much.

But I do still pay close attention to what's going on with BMW via these boards and I am a loyal BMW owner.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I wonder, is there a magazine or website that focuses on "non-performance enthusiasm"? Tests the cars the way the typical driver would use it? Cares more about trunk capacity than torque? More about a quiet cabin than an engine note?

BJ
Such websites do exist. They're called Toyota Forums.


CA
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Such websites do exist. They're called Toyota Forums.


CA
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
I've been (happily) out of the car biz for 3.5 years now, thank you very much.
Car business these days is such a bitch, I am not surprised you are happy.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I don't hear f30 owners complaining about steering.
If you haven't spent time with an older model with hydraulic steering, you might not notice the difference.

And let me clarify-- there are two distinct things here. Steering feel vs steering "weight" or amount of power assist.

BMW could have increased the power assist to make it lighter to appease Cadillac/Lexus type buyers while maintaining feel (those that have been here for a while will recall that BMW tried this when they launched the 2001 330i with significantly more boost than the 2000 328i, although at that point enthusiasts freaked, and BMW started offering a steering rack retrofit to install the rack with less boost).

The F30 system with the sport trim allows you to change the amount of assist, but even in sport mode it just becomes heavy with no feel vs light with no feel. It's hard to keep steering feel when you go from hydraulic to electric, I honestly don't know if anyone else has figured out how to do it.
MMME30W commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Such websites do exist. They're called Toyota Forums.


CA


Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
If you haven't spent time with an older model with hydraulic steering, you might not notice the difference.

And let me clarify-- there are two distinct things here. Steering feel vs steering "weight" or amount of power assist.

BMW could have increased the power assist to make it lighter to appease Cadillac/Lexus type buyers while maintaining feel (those that have been here for a while will recall that BMW tried this when they launched the 2001 330i with significantly more boost than the 2000 328i, although at that point enthusiasts freaked, and BMW started offering a steering rack retrofit to install the rack with less boost).

The F30 system with the sport trim allows you to change the amount of assist, but even in sport mode it just becomes heavy with no feel vs light with no feel. It's hard to keep steering feel when you go from hydraulic to electric, I honestly don't know if anyone else has figured out how to do it.
Apparently not yet. Good article in this months C&D about how challenging electric steering is, but it offers such advantages is here to stay.

Guess I'm going to keep driving my knuckle dragging hydraulic-assist R&P for a while longer.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I don't hear f30 owners complaining about steering.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=646635

Well, steering wheel at least.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highmodulus View Post
lol, Consumer Reports. Written by the Elderly, for the Elderly. Their recommendations match their business model- stuck in 1993.

The same joke Annual Car review editions which recommend Toyota for purchase which they haven't tested not have even been delivered to the US yet. And the massive Toyota recalls, what are those? Who was the last to figure out the disastrous Civic changes, Yep CR. After all if it was good in the 90's it still must be good. Thankfully most knowledge buyers under 60 ignore CR altogether now.
You are speaking based on partial ignorance. As I said before, their recommendations are one thing and their reviews, which obviously cannot fit in the annual car issue, are another. If you just want to get the info condensed in two sentences for the appliance shopper (their annual car issue), that is your problem.

Some mistakes slip in, but the other rags are far worse.

Btwy, CR has a very specific definition for a recommended car. A car has to have an average or higher reliability rating and meet some minimum performance and design criteria (I don't know exactly what those are). A car can get a glowing review about its driving dynamics but at the same time be left off the recommended list because of below average reliability. That doesn't render their review useless. Few cars get left off the list for general crapiness. One such car was the Civic, immediately after it got reviewed. It was completely trashed. Btwy, they complained about the new 5 early on as having lost its benchmark status while most rags were still recycling reviews from the previous version.

As to elderly reviewers, judge for yourself. Here is a publicly available short video review for the F30 328i.

And here is the one of the E90.

Where are the senior citizens? I think their driving skills are more than sufficient to cover 99% of BMW buyers. I find their video reviews straightforward and to the point. They lay out their observation and you pick and chose what matters to you.
Golfster commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:50 pm

At least they didn't include the S4 this time. Coming in 3rd out of 3 is a lot better than 4th out of 4.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
I honestly don't know if anyone else has figured out how to do it.
Supposedly Porsche has figured it out.

They should make a no power steering option. You guys are all wusses
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Supposedly Porsche has figured it out.

They should make a no power steering option. You guys are all wusses
I drove a new 911 S, and quite frankly, the steering felt nearly the same as the 911 model it replaced. The steering on the new Boxster S felt real good too.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I drove a new 911 S, and quite frankly, the steering felt nearly the same as the 911 model it replaced. The steering on the new Boxster S felt real good too.
Maybe I should skip the F30 and go for a Boxster then. Haha
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
BJ-

I have given my opinion as well. Think the F30 is a lovely car in all regards vs E90, and I will likely get one within the next 6 months when my E92 lease ends, but I will admit that in doing so I am going to overlook a serious flaw in the F30 which is the horrible steering. Don't get me wrong, I like everything else about it, but the steering feel sucks. I've had every generation of 3-series since the E30 and I do acknowledge that they've all given up a bit of feel from generation to generation, but E90 -> F30 was the biggest deterioration because the new electric power steering flat out sucks. Not enough to keep me from buying one, but its very disappointing.

And I have driven one at length, this is not just me taking the reviews as gospel.
That's fair, that's honest, that's good.

You have test driven an F30, you are a likely F30 buyer, have fun in the F30 forum. It's those who have no intentions of owning an F30 who just want to crap on it because the E46 people crapped on their E90's who are causing undue controversy.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I don't hear f30 owners complaining about steering.
Because the steering is quite wonderful in the F30.

My E90 turned like a truck, spinning that wheel to get out of a parking space was a chore. If I wanted a workout for my forearms I'd join a gym.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:16 pm

So a bit of a review, since Beden1 as well as some others may have missed the chain of events:

-Yet another thread(out of like 20) where people come to the F30 forum to critique a car they often have not driven, let alone purchase while exalting the superior attributes of the previous models they CHOOSE to drive.
-JamesonsViggen(dashing young fellow) sees the absurdity in this yet again as he watches people wax on about a variety of previous BMW's, this time an E93...but wait, it's an IS. So let's come to the F30 forum, critique and play up on the E93.
-I then play devil's advocate and find plenty of things to critique about the E93(which I can do for any car, that's kind of my point) and making it seem inferior to my even older E36/7-let alone my highly modified E36/7
-The defense to that is, well it was only brought up becase BoltaJames goaded me into it. I will not defend your critique of my E93 which would bring into light the absurd discourse with the F30, instead focusing on my example car and calling it GIRLY...when in fact the E93 could be called just as much if not more-so.
-All of that is ignored. Instead, mine is bigger than yours is elevated by the 911 being brought up. When stated that my girly car can one up the 911 in half the regards the 911 trumps my car, keen eyed rocket scientists harp on said modified car and note how easy it is to slap on a turbo to a 911...once again...one upping instead of focusing on the initial point of how silly it all is to come into one forum to one up the current car with previous generations.
-Now I am told that MY girly car is one touted for the need to compensate. Not the 911 and former Vette owner, cars that one would stereotype as classic compensation mobiles. But that only comes from stereo-typing which is par for the course. I get to drive the stereotype girly car, while the one making the statement gets to skirt driving a girly E93 AND driving cars stereotyped for being driven by those wanting to compensate(911's and Vettes). Isn't that impressive?
-I thought I would give yet another example, maybe something even he/anyone else could grasp onto. The elitism in the 911 community, where many 993 owners feel it ends there(as well as 997.2 vs 991), after air cooling, inferior-less pure Porsches came after. Not only do we confirm such a stigma and bull**** statement exists, he goes on to say that the new model people know better, they are the party of elevated thinking. All while oblivious to how hypocritical it sounds to say that when it applies apples to apples to the F30 vs older BMW debate.

So I think that sums it up.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BJ if I left, unsuspecting visitors may actually start buying what you say is true, when in fact, you're really a BMW marketing shill.
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

I merely speak the truth, a truth that's pretty obvious. I realize that E46 people got under your skin years ago. Doesn't mean that E90 people have the right to get under ours.

You are a part-time BMW driver with no intention of buying an F30. So please go back to your E9X forum and bask in the glory of your super-special 335i Cabrio that you drive 200 miles a month. Visiting this forum every week to drop a hate bomb isn't befitting someone of your advanced years.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
This from a guy who sells BMW.

On the bright side, there will be plenty of people who will like the lighter steering because that is what they are used to in other cars they drive.
And here chimes in someone in a bare bones baseline E90 328i with his views on "steering feel" and "performance enthusiasm" as if he has a clue.

The E90 is just the mistake between the E46 and the F30. If you truly believed the crap you dish out, you'd be in an ATS by now.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
So I think that sums it up.
What sums it up is that you really need some meds.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You won't hear ATS owners complain that ATS is ugly.
Because 75 year olds have terrible eyesight.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
What sums it up is that you really need some meds.
He's an F30 owner in the F30 forum.

You're an E93 owner who's here to get his rocks off by bashing other BMW owners.

Pretty sure we know which of the two of you needs meds.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Because the steering is quite wonderful in the F30.

My E90 turned like a truck, spinning that wheel to get out of a parking space was a chore. If I wanted a workout for my forearms I'd join a gym.

BJ
I never understood why people feel that the E9x has heavy steering.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I never understood why people feel that the E9x has heavy steering.

CA
At speed, the E9X steering was very good, I enjoyed its accuracy and precision.

But maneuvering around parking lots and driveways, different story, I always felt it required way too much effort for a luxury car.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
At speed, the E9X steering was very good, I enjoyed its accuracy and precision.

But maneuvering around parking lots and driveways, different story, I always felt it required way too much effort for a luxury car.

BJ
That's because it was never intended to be a luxury car. Maybe now you get it?
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
At speed, the E9X steering was very good, I enjoyed its accuracy and precision.

But maneuvering around parking lots and driveways, different story, I always felt it required way too much effort for a luxury car.

BJ
I was referring to maneuvering around parking lots and driveways and I honestly do not find that it requires too much effort. I asked Ms. Audio (who has an issue diminished strength in her right arm due to an injury) what she thought of the steering effort in the E93 and she also does find it to be too heavy. The harsh suspension with the OEM dampers and the RFTs was another story as we both hated it. At this point I am happy with the way the 335i drives. It will be interesting to get back to it next month after 8 weeks in a C250 Mercedes.

CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
What sums it up is that you really need some meds.
That must be it!

I don't take any pills of any kind, never will.

But I figure at your advanced age and pension for "compensating for difficientcies" type vehicles I am sure you have some favorites...Extenz, Viagra?
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I was referring to maneuvering around parking lots and driveways. I asked Ms. Audio (who had an issue diminished strength in her right arm due to an injury) what she thought of the steering effort in the E93 and she did not see an issue with it being too heavy.

CA
Perhaps it's because we tend to get comfortable with what we know.

I suspect that if you bought her an F30 for Christmas she'd remark at how light and easy the steering is. It's one of the first things I noticed on my F30 test drive along with the torque, lighter feel, and the sumptuous interior.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 5:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Perhaps it's because we tend to get comfortable with what we know.

I suspect that if you bought her an F30 for Christmas she'd remark at how light and easy the steering is. It's one of the first things I noticed on my F30 test drive along with the torque, lighter feel, and the sumptuous interior.

BJ
We had a Lexus SC300 and are currently driving a Mercedes C250 (Courtesy of Hertz). She had her own Jaguar XKR until a few weeks ago and since we have had the E93 she has driven a wide variety of cars ranging from the Lime Rock Club's M3s and our 750Lix to rental Shelbys and Audis.


CA
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:00 pm

Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.
Yeah, and the Huxtables were starting in the #1 show on television and the Cabbage Patch doll was the #1 toy for Christmas.

It's 2013. Get the free calendar from your Porsche dealer.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
That must be it!

I don't take any pills of any kind, never will.

But I figure at your advanced age and pension for "compensating for difficientcies" type vehicles I am sure you have some favorites...Extenz, Viagra?
You have turned what had started out as a fun exchange into very offensive slurs. You and BJ should be so lucky to reach my age, with the great physical conditioning that I maintain, and with the good fortune to live a comfortable life.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yeah, and the Huxtables were starting in the #1 show on television and the Cabbage Patch doll was the #1 toy for Christmas.

It's 2013. Get the free calendar from your Porsche dealer.

BJ
I have sat in an F30 and the luxury portion has not changed. You still have to pay up to get luxury in a BMW.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.
With the 3, perhaps you had to pay up for luxury because otherwise the price looked outrageous. But I think they realized they couldn't play that game anymore and threw in a few things in the base 3, such as power seats BMW had to adjust their meaning of stripper not to be too out of touch with today's market.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I have sat in an F30 and the luxury portion has not changed. You still have to pay up to get luxury in a BMW.
You do, but they raised a little the baseline you start from. At least now you have power seats, dimming mirrors, folding back seat, etc. Still, you get plastic silver trim, a steering wheel that looks homely compared to the line cars (at least in pictures), plastic seats, etc.
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
With the 3, perhaps you had to pay up for luxury because otherwise the price looked outrageous. But I think they realized they couldn't play that game anymore and threw in a few things in the base 3, such as power seats BMW had to adjust their meaning of stripper not to be too out of touch with today's market.
By luxury, I mean the quality of the interior appointments, the comfort of the seating, the added creature comforts, and the fit and finish.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.

The 7 still is a luxury car with superior handling. In comfort plus mode there is no such thing as a pothole. In sport plus mode the suspension firms up, the shifts become more aggressive, the throttle mapping is more aggressive and I swear to God the car becomes 18" shorter and 400 lbs lighter.


CA
beden1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 7 still is a luxury car with superior handling. In comfort plus mode there is no such thing as a pothole. In sport plus mode the suspension firms up, the shifts become more aggressive, the throttle mapping is more aggressive and I swear to God the car becomes 18" shorter and 400 lbs lighter.


CA
I said historically, and it is comforting to know that the 7 Series is still treated as a flagship model by BMW.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
By luxury, I mean the quality of the interior appointments, the comfort of the seating, the added creature comforts, and the fit and finish.
I honestly don't know what a luxury car is today. I just went for a ride in my sisters highly optioned Honda Accord and to be perfectly honest with its leather interior, fit and finish and creature comforts it seems as luxurious as a 3 Series or a C Class Mercedes (and this is not a criticism of BMW or Mercedes).

CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You have turned what had started out as a fun exchange into very offensive slurs. You and BJ should be so lucky to reach my age, with the great physical conditioning that I maintain, and with the good fortune to live a comfortable life.
So let me get this straight.

Without saying ANYTHING personal to you, you said I drive a girly car and that I am compensating, I need medication, and that I am talking to you-which puts me out of my league.

So I tease you right back and YOU are the one who has the right to be offended and make me out to be the bad guy?

You have made nothing but sweeping statements, assumptions as to who I am and my life style and any time the mirror is reversed at your statements you skirt the issue some more and then we land on you being so fit, so financially well off-oh and offended.

For real?

I have taken all your jabs and kept it moving, kept it light hearted. And boom, I hurt YOUR feelings with a joke about needing wiener pills. You are too smart and have too thick a skin for that, right?
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:26 pm

I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA
I mentioned my wife's Saab my first week and BJ made a comment eluding to never being caught dead in such a thing. I was going to pounce when someone made me aware of him and I began seeing all of the humor in his posts. Now I savor BJ posts.

I have had the most heated forum wars one can imagine with epic Photoshop battles. Things got waaaay personal even breaching into girlfriends and wives. But in the end bygones were had and laughs continue to this day.

In the end it's a car forum and people always find a way to take things too seriously. But sometimes people go a bit too far. Even I have my hot buttons. I especially hate it when someone acts like an tough guy and says something very bold that I know for a fact would never say such a thing to my face. Basic human respect needs to exist, even online.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I was referring to maneuvering around parking lots and driveways and I honestly do not find that it requires too much effort. I asked Ms. Audio (who has an issue diminished strength in her right arm due to an injury) what she thought of the steering effort in the E93 and she also does find it to be too heavy. The harsh suspension with the OEM dampers and the RFTs was another story as we both hated it. At this point I am happy with the way the 335i drives. It will be interesting to get back to it next month after 8 weeks in a C250 Mercedes.

CA
CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.

P.S. Mrs. Audio should get an F-Type. I swear, if I see a F-Type coupe in 2015 after my lease ends, I will have no problem signing on the dotted line. It's either that or a Cayman.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.
Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.

P.S. Mrs. Audio should get an F-Type. I swear, if I see a F-Type coupe in 2015 after my lease ends, I will have no problem signing on the dotted line. It's either that or a Cayman.
The F-Type with a manual looks to be very promising. I am smitten with what I have seen of the new Boxster S and Cayman. So I also will be test driving some cars in a year or two.
justinnum1 commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
If you haven't spent time with an older model with hydraulic steering, you might not notice the difference.

And let me clarify-- there are two distinct things here. Steering feel vs steering "weight" or amount of power assist.

BMW could have increased the power assist to make it lighter to appease Cadillac/Lexus type buyers while maintaining feel (those that have been here for a while will recall that BMW tried this when they launched the 2001 330i with significantly more boost than the 2000 328i, although at that point enthusiasts freaked, and BMW started offering a steering rack retrofit to install the rack with less boost).

The F30 system with the sport trim allows you to change the amount of assist, but even in sport mode it just becomes heavy with no feel vs light with no feel. It's hard to keep steering feel when you go from hydraulic to electric, I honestly don't know if anyone else has figured out how to do it.
I have owned e90 335 and 328. And currently own an e90. I have owned plenty of BMWs. There is plenty of feel.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 6:59 pm

We will certainly be test driving an F Type as soon as they become available. I have no interest in an MT assuming the AT is as good as the one on the XKR and XKR-S.

CA
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA
I believe she got the standard suspension. I haven't driven the car yet so I can't comment on the body roll, but when I get a chance I will make sure to post it comparing how different it feels compared to my e92 328xi.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
We will certainly be test driving an F Type as soon as they become available. I have no interest in an MT assuming the AT is as good as the one on the XKR and XKR-S.

CA
I believe they are using the same ZF 8-Speed Auto that we've seen in most of the recent BMW's. If that is the case, the transmission is amazing. BMW's got it tuned perfectly. Hopefully Jaguar can do the same.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA
It's really sad and weird. The E9x forum never got like this after the E90 came out. I find the F30 forum an unpleasant place to be much of the time. Yes, BJ, I spent a lot of time in the E9x forum when I still had an E46.

Regardless of any of the posts here, the F30 retains MUCH MORE of the 3 Series attributes than it changes. As a side note I'll mention that in my opinion the F30 steering in Sport mode is quite similar in effort and feel to the active steering on the E90, which my car has. It is a somewhat different feel, but it only took me about two days to adjust. And I have no difficultly transitioning between it and non-active steering in the E9x, which I like very much.

I've posted this previously, but I'll post it again. As we all know, the steering weight changes noticeably on the F30 in Sport mode. Unless there is something of which the Cadillac product specialist is unaware (entirely possible, based on my experience with product "specialists") the electrically assisted steering on the ATS makes no changes regardless of the driving mode. I am wholly unimpressed with the electrically assisted steering on the ATS. I was able to turn the steering wheel with my pinkie finger.

Yes, CA, it is always good to be able to admit when BJ is wrong.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:05 pm

Regarding steering heft.

There is nothing WRONG with the E series heft. There is nothing WRONG with the F30 heft.

I did find the E heavy for heavies sake. You know, kind of like when you shake a guys hand who goes overboard and it's way too firm of a hand shake. It just winds up being more than is needed to get the point across.

So there are plenty of people who can camp for it being great and others that will find it a turn off.

I find in Sport and Sport + both heft and feedback are fine. Not as much of both when compared to my E36, but still fine and better than most cars out there.
LarryboysUDM commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:12 pm

When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take...
After that he says "while flawed" and "we think" the Cadillac is the best then says what we love to see is the engine and transmission in the BMW. In the middle of the video he said the BMW has the best navigation system. How could BMW be last?
Don't be taken by that review. Do your own test drive.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Regarding steering heft.

There is nothing WRONG with the E series heft. There is nothing WRONG with the F30 heft.

I did find the E heavy for heavies sake. You know, kind of like when you shake a guys hand who goes overboard and it's way too firm of a hand shake. It just winds up being more than is needed to get the point across.

So there are plenty of people who can camp for it being great and others that will find it a turn off.

I find in Sport and Sport + both heft and feedback are fine. Not as much of both when compared to my E36, but still fine and better than most cars out there.
Yes, I meant to mention that. Excepting Porsche type "semi-exotics" BMW steering is miles and miles and miles beyond the steering of virtually any other auto maker.


One other comment regarding the topic of this thread, having driven the F30 3er and the current C Class there are only two reasons one could possibly describe the C Class as having better driving dynamics and characteristics, in any way, than a 3er. The person would either have to be under the influence of crack or have a purposeful, biased bone to pick with the 3er. The C Class simply does not handle or drive as well as the 3er. Period. This reviewer's statement to the contrary eliminates his credibility.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You have turned what had started out as a fun exchange into very offensive slurs. You and BJ should be so lucky to reach my age, with the great physical conditioning that I maintain, and with the good fortune to live a comfortable life.
Time out.

You started all this stuff and you continue to visit this forum for no reason other than to agitate F30 owners. What you said to JV was worse than what he threw back, and the only reason he felt the need to throw back is because of what you said in the first place.

Here's an idea: Stop bothering us and avoid getting your feelings hurt. Go back to the comfort of the forum that's designed just for you and speak positively about a BMW for a change.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

CA
First off, I think this is a rather benign thread and no one is crossing any lines.

The root cause of tonight's discussion revolves around an E90 owner or two that swoops into the F30 forum multiple times a week and causes unwanted trouble. It's one thing to discuss the benefits and detriments of a particular vehicle you own or have an intention of owning; it's quite another thing to be consistently negative about a car you'll never own and troll a forum you don't belong in.

Yourself, Raider, Ice, you all play nice, offer good points of view. Mr. Beden and Mr. 100, different story.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take....
Another thing that caught my attention was the very beginning of the review.....when he says that anyone looking for a $50k sport sedan is going to look at these three....the 3er, the C Class and the ATS. Really?! Nope. They're going to look at the 3er, the C Class and the A4. They might look at the ATS. At this point in time many of them aren't even going to realize the ATS is meant to be considered as a competitor in the class. Four years in and half the population can't even name Joe Biden as the vice president.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Another thing that caught my attention was the very beginning of the review.....when he says that anyone looking for a $50k sport sedan is going to looks at these three....the 3er, the C Class and the ATS. Nope. They're going to look at the 3er, the C Class and the A4. They might look at the ATS. At this point in time many of them aren't even going to realize the ATS is meant to be considered as a competitor in the class. Four years in and half the population can't even name Joe Biden as the vice president.
Precisely.

GM spends a lot of money advertising in the very same magazines that are suddenly giving unwarranted cred to the Cadillac brand after decades of trashing it.

Hmm. Wonder why.

BJ
dunderhi commented:
November 25, 2012, 7:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA
I found non-RFTs and lightweight wheels were a fix to the pothole explosions on my 335d.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

GM spends a lot of money advertising in the very same magazines that are suddenly giving unwarranted cred to the Cadillac brand after decades of trashing it.

Hmm. Wonder why.

BJ
We have a noted automotive journalist as a moderator here. Ask him if he thinks the writers for the major mags are bought off.

In any multi-car comparo one car is going to come in first and one is going to come in last and the rest will come somewhere between. The makers of all of the cars advertise heavily in the magazines. It seems whenever BMW wins one of these magazine comparisons the authors are praised here as visionary experts and whenever BMW losethe it can never be because the authors were unbiased and actually preferred another brand and their credibility will be attacked.

The Cadillac ATS has been rather universally praised by the automotive press. They are not saying it is perfect but they are saying it is a very good car and worthy competiton to the 3 Series. Based on that I would probably consider looking at one if I was on the market for a car in that segment. Would I actually buy one? I don't know but if it had been consistantly panned by Car and Driver, Automobile, Motor Trend, etc, I would probably not consider it as I have been reading those mags for years and they have always gotten me pointed in the right direction when I was car shopping.


CA
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:10 pm

The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
At speed, the E9X steering was very good, I enjoyed its accuracy and precision.

But maneuvering around parking lots and driveways, different story, I always felt it required way too much effort for a luxury car.

BJ
BJ will not admit it yet, but he is getting old and grumpy.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
Although I was as vocal as anyone about the Pothole Explosions issue I have never seen a "I think my BMW has too much steering feel" of a "I wish my BMW leaned more on turns" post.

As I have said many times before performance and comfort are not mutually exclusive particularly with the technolgies that are available today. It is not necessary to sacrifice performance to move upscale in the market.

CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
Wasn't the G20 largely just a Sentra, or was it just the engine out of one? I liked the second gen with SR20det swaps.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Wasn't the G20 largely just a Sentra, or was it just the engine out of one? I liked the second gen with SR20det swaps.
The original G20 was not a Sentra. The second generation, not so much. Both had the SR20d.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Although I was a vocal as anyone about the Pothole Explosions issue I have never seen a "I think my BMW has too much steering feel" of a "I wish my BMW leaned more on turns" post.

As I have said many times before performance and comfort are not mutually exclusive particularly with the technolgies that are available today. It is not necessary to sacrifice performance to move upscale in the market.

CA
The technologies add weight though. Adding an array of sensors, and gadgets, and gizmo's has essentially caused the 3 series to become a mini-5. Adding all these creature comforts is why I think they have become mutually exclusive. BMW said that they're working on including CFRP in the future, but only after it's cost effective. I think that's when we'll see the 3er somewhat return to where it was before in terms of weight and performance. BMW has seen the 3 grow over the years, and that's why I think they've decided to bring back the 1 series and include a 2 series(aside from marketing purposes, of course)
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
Wouldn't the back seats be unusable in a 1 sedan? How usable were they in the G20? There were rumors flying around that we would see a 1 series Gran-Coupe of sorts.
SARAFIL commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:41 pm

Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.

As far as payola in the auto mags, you all realize that all of those times BMWs were winning and we were going "hell yea!" the people on the other make forums were going on with their payola theories. It comes off as being a bad sport.
tturedraider commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.
One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW. The odds of that are virtually nil. I think the fawning has much more to do with the auto rags amazement that Caddy did this well on their first attempt. We all know GM and Cadillac have made big claims to be after their competition in the past, only to fall flat on their face, revealing their lack of serious commitment.

Something else I noticed about the ATS, it feels smaller, tighter, more narrow inside than the E46 and the rear seat has noticeably less legroom. The rear seat itself is pretty comfortable and it does not feel particularly like you're in a hole. The excessively wide C pillars of the CTS, along with the sunken cushion, make its rear seat feel like sitting in a dark hole.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Something else I noticed about the ATS, it feels smaller, tighter,ore narrow inside than the E46 and the rear seat has noticeably less legroom. The rear seat itself is pretty comfortable and it does not feel particularly like you're in a hole. The excessively wide C pillars, along with the sunken cushion, make the rear seat of the CTS feel like sitting in a dark hole.
e46 3 series:

Exterior Measurements
WIDTH5 ft. 8.5 in. (68.5 in.) HEIGHT4 ft. 7.7 in. (55.7 in.)
LENGTH14 ft. 8 in. (176 in.) WHEEL BASE8 ft. 11.3 in. (107.3 in.)

Interior Measurements
FRONT HEAD ROOM 38.4 in. FRONT LEG ROOM 41.4 in.
FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 54.4 in. REAR HEAD ROOM 37.5 in.
REAR LEG ROOM 34.6 in. REAR SHOULDER ROOM 54.2 in.

vs the ATS:


WIDTH5 ft. 11.1 in. (71.1 in.) HEIGHT4 ft. 7.9 in. (55.9 in.)
LENGTH15 ft. 2.8 in. (182.8 in.) FRONT TRACK4 ft. 11.5 in. (59.5 in.)
REAR TRACK5 ft. 0.9 in. (60.9 in.) WHEEL BASE9 ft. 1.3 in. (109.3 in.)


Interior Measurements
FRONT HEAD ROOM 38.6 in. FRONT HIP ROOM 53.0 in.
FRONT LEG ROOM 42.5 in. FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 55.2 in.
REAR HIP ROOM 52.3 in.
Michael Schott commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The technologies add weight though. Adding an array of sensors, and gadgets, and gizmo's has essentially caused the 3 series to become a mini-5. Adding all these creature comforts is why I think they have become mutually exclusive. BMW said that they're working on including CFRP in the future, but only after it's cost effective. I think that's when we'll see the 3er somewhat return to where it was before in terms of weight and performance. BMW has seen the 3 grow over the years, and that's why I think they've decided to bring back the 1 series and include a 2 series(aside from marketing purposes, of course)
I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 9:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.
Maybe I should of clarified, The F30 has become a 5 series in terms of refinement. All the added refinement has caused the car to lose what enthusiasts like about the car. The F30 right now is about the size of the E39. That's what BMW wants. The market that use to buy that same 3 series has grown older, and BMW is now tending towards their needs. Add the safety equipment and all the gadgetry, and you have a somewhat heavy 'sports' sedan. This will all hopefully change once CFRP starts being used, but I'm thinking that's the next generation 3 series.

There are other ways of saving fuel, without having to add EPS, though. Take a look at Mercedes, and their new AMG cars. They sticking to naturally aspirated V8's, but adding things like active cylinder deactivation to save fuel and meet fuel requirements. If they're going to at least include EPS, do it properly, take a page out of Porsches book and the new Carrera's. So far, it's the best EPS I've driven. Still not there, and lacks that tiny bit of feel through the wheel, but you know where the wheels are and what they are doing. All it takes is a little R&D but BMW isn't willing to spend that money because they'll give up their #1 spot in the luxury segment.
Michael Schott commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Maybe I should of clarified, The F30 has become a 5 series in terms of refinement. All the added refinement has caused the car to lose what enthusiasts like about the car. The F30 right now is about the size of the E39. That's what BMW wants. The market that use to buy that same 3 series has grown older, and BMW is now tending towards their needs. Add the safety equipment and all the gadgetry, and you have a somewhat heavy 'sports' sedan. This will all hopefully change once CFRP starts being used, but I'm thinking that's the next generation 3 series.

There are other ways of saving fuel, without having to add EPS, though. Take a look at Mercedes, and their new AMG cars. They sticking to naturally aspirated V8's, but adding things like active cylinder deactivation to save fuel and meet fuel requirements. If they're going to at least include EPS, do it properly, take a page out of Porsches book and the new Carrera's. So far, it's the best EPS I've driven. Still not there, and lacks that tiny bit of feel through the wheel, but you know where the wheels are and what they are doing. All it takes is a little R&D but BMW isn't willing to spend that money because they'll give up their #1 spot in the luxury segment.
Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
captainaudio commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
I agree that refinement is not a bad thing. Cars that combined performance and refinement have been around for years and have traditionally been called Grand Touring (GT) cars. The days of pure sports cars with no power steering or brakes, no air conditioning, roadster tops that had to be assembled, etc. ended over 40 years ago and if BMW or anyone else were to introduce one today it would have limited market appeal. That being said a modern high performance car like an M3 with all of its creature comforts and refinement will get around a track faster than the highest performance pure sports cars of 50 years ago.

So once again I will maintain that refinement and comfort do not preclude performance and good driving dynamics.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 25, 2012, 10:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.
dtc100 commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW.
Most auto mags did not say ATS bested F30, even the above MT reviewer put the ATS 2.0T manual behind the F30 328i manual. This time he compared the bigger engine and auto trans of the three brands, and put the ATS 3.6 on top.

On the other hand, several car-of-the-year contests judged by auto journalists organizations either named the ATS Luxury Car of the Year (in Canada), or simply Car of the Year (in the US), after large number of them reviewed hundreds of cars. So it was actually in non-enthusiast-type contests where the ATS bested its competitions.

ATS also received Car of the Year awards from several non-auto mags such as Popular Mechanics and Esquire magazine.

I would not just dismiss all of the awards above simply because you claim you are more credible. Some of them might be questionable, but I don't think you can dismiss them all.
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.

Yo HI - who makes Porsche's steering feedback unit?
boltjaM3s commented:
November 25, 2012, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW. The odds of that are virtually nil. I think the fawning has much more to do with the auto rags amazement that Caddy did this well on their first attempt. We all know GM and Cadillac have made big claims to be after their competition in the past, only to fall flat on their face, revealing their lack of serious commitment.
I think the explanation is pretty simple.

The ATS is the first rear wheel drive car with a tight suspension to launch in this segment in decades which makes it an enthusiast magazine's wet dream. To ignore or disregard it would be enthusiast heresy, to praise it or laud it would be proper reciprocation because it supports the message that they're trying to foster between the staples.

16 Magazine did this for a decade in the mid 60's. The Beatles vs. Herman's Hermits. Davy Jones vs. David Cassidy. New Kids On The Block vs. NSYNC.

BJ
EddieB commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
Cameras and tech aside, the F30 corners like any other 3er past or present.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll.
I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
One other comment regarding the topic of this thread, having driven the F30 3er and the current C Class there are only two reasons one could possibly describe the C Class as having better driving dynamics and characteristics, in any way, than a 3er. The person would either have to be under the influence of crack or have a purposeful, biased bone to pick with the 3er. The C Class simply does not handle or drive as well as the 3er. Period. This reviewer's statement to the contrary eliminates his credibility.
You have to listen carefully. He never said that. In fact, he kind of glossed over very quickly how the BMW can probably turn the best numbers.

He focused on feel and fun factors. Not actual performance. At least that's how I remember it. I am not going to wait another few minutes watching the video again
tturedraider commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You have to listen carefully. He never said that. In fact, he kind of glossed over very quickly how the BMW can probably turn the best numbers.

He focused on feel and fun factors. Not actual performance. At least that's how I remember it. I am not going to wait another few minutes watching the video again
The C Class doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, feel better or more fun to drive. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I think the explanation is pretty simple.

The ATS is the first rear wheel drive car with a tight suspension to launch in this segment in decades which makes it an enthusiast magazine's wet dream. To ignore or disregard it would be enthusiast heresy, to praise it or laud it would be proper reciprocation because it supports the message that they're trying to foster between the staples.

16 Magazine did this for a decade in the mid 60's. The Beatles vs. Herman's Hermits. Davy Jones vs. David Cassidy. New Kids On The Block vs. NSYNC.

BJ
One thing the ATS lacks is the premium interior feel, though. It can be Awesome to drive, but I don't want to hear creaks and rattles as I'm carving down a canyon road, BMW's have rattles here and there,but it takes awhile for them to show and everything feels well put together even if it doesn't look that way. It feels like it's quality.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.
I think the comparison to the 5 is indeed typically for two generations ago. The current 5 is very heavy and has soft handling. Consumer Reports claimed BMW screwed it up, so you can imagine what hard core enthusiasts think about it.
EddieB commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.
I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.
tturedraider commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by calwaterboy View Post
yo hi - who makes porsche's steering feedback unit?
zf.
justinnum1 commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Yo HI - who makes Porsche's steering feedback unit?
I believe it's Bosch. I will double check tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
zf.
Thought it was Bosch. I will confirm with a tech tomorrow.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).
The early generation run flats were very noisy, on top of being jarring and uncomfortable.
tturedraider commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think the comparison to the 5 is indeed typically for two generations ago. The current 5 is very heavy and has soft handling. Consumer Reports claimed BMW screwed it up, so you can imagine what hard core enthusiasts think about it.
BMW did make a concerted effort to make the F10 5er more appealing to E Class buyers. There also were a pretty fair number of E39 owners who felt the E60 was too raw/harsh. The key these days to a more "traditional" handling 5er is Active Roll Stabilization. ARS is really, really good. It eliminates virtually 100% of body roll. The ZDH is another key factor in giving the F10 more sport sedan handling. When the F10 first came out no sport suspension was available. The ZDH was a necessity to have a sport suspension. If I'm reading correctly at least the M Sport package does now actually have a sport suspension. If that's correct the ZDH may not be a necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.
Dual climate controls confirm the F30 is a mini-5er? The 3er has had dual climate controls since the introduction of the E90 in 2005.
tturedraider commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I believe it's Bosch. I will double check tomorrow.



Thought it was Bosch. I will confirm with a tech tomorrow.
OK. According to ZF it's them.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post

It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.
Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 26, 2012, 3:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
November 26, 2012, 3:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).
It was a combination of the run flats and the OEM dampers. I was able to get the harshness under control by ditching the RFTs and replacing the shocks with Koni FSDs. At this point I am satisfied with both the handling and the ride comfort. After my experience with the 335i Sport Suspension and with the 750Li I would not purchase a BMW that did not have an adjustable suspension.

CA
captainaudio commented:
November 26, 2012, 4:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The C Class doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, feel better or more fun to drive. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
I have a C250 for 2 months (Hertz Rental). I am not sure if it is the luxury or sport model and don't know how to tell. It is sparsely optioned and a decent car but is not as fun to drive as my 335i. This is the second one as I had some issues with the first and swapped it out. The current one drives much better than the first one did. The steering feels more precise and the car feels more planted. Ride quality on both is firm but not squishy. I assumed they were identical but they do not feel the same. Maybe the shocks were shot on the first one. Both cars had about 16,000 miles on them. This one says "Blue Efficiency" on the side not sure if the other one did. I did not have any complaints about the ride quality on my 335i when I drove it on the same roads I a driving the Mercedes on (Palm Beach Florida Area)

CA
captainaudio commented:
November 26, 2012, 4:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ
Ring, Ring, Ring

Passenger: "Hello"

Driver: "Hi, It's BJ over in the drivers seat."

Passenger: "Hey BJ, what's up?"

Driver: "Did you see the jealous look on the face of the driver of that Camry we just passed?"

CA
jmsent commented:
November 26, 2012, 7:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I found non-RFTs and lightweight wheels were a fix to the pothole explosions on my 335d.
Same here. Conti DW's on the stock 18's and have never had a pothole explosion since. I live in the Chicago area where the roads aren't exactly wonderful.
jmsent commented:
November 26, 2012, 8:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
BMW did make a concerted effort to make the F10 5er more appealing to E Class buyers. There also were a pretty fair number of E39 owners who felt the E60 was too raw/harsh. The key these days to a more "traditional" handling 5er is Active Roll Stabilization. ARS is really, really good. It eliminates virtually 100% of body roll. The ZDH is another key factor in giving the F10 more sport sedan handling. When the F10 first came out no sport suspension was available. The ZDH was a necessity to have a sport suspension. If I'm reading correctly at least the M Sport package does now actually have a sport suspension. If that's correct the ZDH may not be a necessity.



Dual climate controls confirm the F30 is a mini-5er? The 3er has had dual climate controls since the introduction of the E90 in 2005.
Don't look now, but the E36 3 series also had them. The E46 dropped them and managed to came up with one of the lousiest HVAC systems ever to grace a BMW. Of course, the E46 has reached iconic status, now that it's been 7 years since anybody could get one, and in the mean time, everyone remembers only the good parts.
Michael Schott commented:
November 26, 2012, 9:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.
In my short test drive of an F30 I didn't find the EPS to lack feedback. It's definitely different than an E90, more filtered and smoother but not lifeless as many seem to portray. I'd love to test drive a new 911. I'll have to put it on my list.

By the way the most recent issue of Car and Driver has a great article comparing EPS to HPS. They test two current 5 series, an xDrive and a RWD model. The xDrive has HPS due to lack of space for the EPS motor. While a test of the much softer 5 is not apples to apples with an F30, they were surprised how well the EPS did vs the HPS.
Chris90 commented:
November 26, 2012, 11:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsent View Post
I've owned at least one of each from the E30 on. I had 2 E46's, including a 330i and an M3.
I don't think the E46 was the pinnacle at all. The E36 was lighter and had a more connected feel. My E30 was simple, very light, and a blast to drive. It came standard with limited slip diff. The I6 (post ETA) engine had some of the best mechanical sounds ever. My E46 330i had a lot of problems; all of them well documented by others on these boards. As a whole, I'd say it was a solid car, but kind of boring. My M3 was a great track car but poorly suited as a daily driver. My E92, one HPFP not withstanding, has been by far the most reliable of all the BMW's I've owned. I also found it capable of filling the shoes of both my old 330 and my M3. Not perfect, but pretty darned good. IMO, each generation has had its strength and weaknesses, but on the whole, the 3 series has moved forward and kept up with the times and mostly ahead of the competition throughout the years. I'm sure BMW will make appropriate adjustments to address the points of the MT comparo(such as they are). It isn't the first time a 3 series lost, and usually by the next model year, they were right back on top.
Well said. That's why we complain, not to annoy BJs, but to get BMW to address issues, like fixing the steering in 2001, or offering the ZHP package in 2003.

The E46 is not the pinnacle, maybe it's the best compromise. Each new 3 has gotten slightly less fun and involving, but also nicer and more comfortable, and more technologically advanced. The buyer has to decide how important each aspect is to them.

To me that's still the E46. I paid $33k cash for it 7 years ago, when I was a lot poorer. I think I could afford $550/month if I wanted an F30.
Chris90 commented:
November 26, 2012, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Willy View Post
If you are a 'leaser' BMW is by far the best bang for the buck - IMHO. They depreciate the least of ALL the competition.....which makes for a more competitive lease. If I was buying the car....the S4 would have entered into the picture much more heavily.
A minor point - BMWs depreciate just as much as Audis, it's just that BMW fudges the numbers to get attractive lease rates. They've lost a lot of money on their over-estimated residuals, but the alternative (higher lease rates) would kill their sales.
Chris90 commented:
November 26, 2012, 11:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.
+1 Let's not attract tuned Civic owners to the forum.
Chris90 commented:
November 26, 2012, 12:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm not calling myself a hardcore 3 Series enthusiast at all.

Just saying that I'm a hardcore E90/F30 3 Series owner for the past 7 years and understand BMW's non-enthusiast strategy quite well as I'm that target customer. While the enthusiasts lament the growing size and softening ride, I embrace it as it's exactly what I wanted.

BJ
What you don't understand is that BMW owners may not track their cars, or understand countersteer, but they do pay attention to a car's reputation. The 3 series attracts buyers cause it has the reputation of being the sportiest compact sedan, the same way people buy Range Rovers but never drive them off pavement - they want that image even if they never use the performance.

So if the 3 series starts losing every comparison to C350s or some Caddy, it will affect sales, just watch.

BMW knows this - so I bet (or hope) when the 2 series sedan comes out, they will try to make it more fun to drive, not just smaller. Size is not the F30's problem. The E39 M5 was just as big and heavier, but great fun to drive.
dtc100 commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
+1 Let's not attract tuned Civic owners to the forum.
No discussion of modified cars? Is replacing RFTs with summer go-flats not one of the modifications?. A lot was also said about BMW offering performance parts to make the stock car more fun to drive.

Of course the point was that in stock form, in fact in base stock form, ATS's chassis is so well tuned that it impressed many people, despite the other areas of shortcomings.
DerekS commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series.
I suggest you double check your facts before posting. The E39 (188" LOA) is 6 inches longer than the F30 (182"LOA). A quick comparison of the rear seat spaces would also indicate the larger size of the E39.
av98 commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
No discussion of modified cars? Is replacing RFTs with summer go-flats not one of the modifications?. A lot was also said about BMW offering performance parts to make the stock car more fun to drive.

Of course the point was that in stock form, in fact in base stock form, ATS's chassis is so well tuned that it impressed many people, despite the other areas of shortcomings.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2012/10/02...-and-5-series/
EddieB commented:
November 26, 2012, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
I suggest you double check your facts before posting. The E39 (188" LOA) is 6 inches longer than the F30 (182"LOA). A quick comparison of the rear seat spaces would also indicate the larger size of the E39.
Good catch. I should have used the Wiki. But whether or not, it does remind me of my E39 530i.
jfox335i commented:
November 26, 2012, 8:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It's Jameson...like the Whiskey. Just an FYI
Nice, same here but with an I.
jfox335i commented:
November 26, 2012, 8:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHE85kHxRw8




Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/
Blah blah blah...BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Audi, Porsche, who cares, at least we're all not driving Hyundai's amirite??

I've been a fanboy for years but only became an owner recently, so while I have driven E46 (01 M3 started the BMW obsession) and other various E9x, I'm no expert on them. I haven't driven a bimmer I didn't enjoy. I love my F30 335 more then any vehicle I have ever owned. I can't comment on the Cadillac but I test drove the MB, and fun factor isn't on par with a 335.

To bash the 3-series because it has evolved is ridiculous IMO. That's what BMW does, they innovate. That's why they are the most valuable automotive brand in the world and one of the top 10 most valuable corporate brands. I'm excited for where BMW is going and think it will only continue to get better. But I'm biased, I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, so FWIW.

/going for a drive
MMME30W commented:
November 26, 2012, 9:08 pm

^^^ sums up thread nicely.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 26, 2012, 9:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
What you don't understand is that BMW owners may not track their cars, or understand countersteer, but they do pay attention to a car's reputation. The 3 series attracts buyers cause it has the reputation of being the sportiest compact sedan, the same way people buy Range Rovers but never drive them off pavement - they want that image even if they never use the performance.

So if the 3 series starts losing every comparison to C350s or some Caddy, it will affect sales, just watch.

BMW knows this - so I bet (or hope) when the 2 series sedan comes out, they will try to make it more fun to drive, not just smaller. Size is not the F30's problem. The E39 M5 was just as big and heavier, but great fun to drive.
Cadillac feels the negative repercussions of some lousy 1980's vehicles to this very day.

BMW will feel the positive repercussions of the 3 Series 1980's and 1990's reputation for years to come.

The F30 is a superior car for similar money to the E90, so the only thing that can affect sales is if BMW knocks themselves off with a 2 Series sedan. As you well know, BMW owners are loyal to a tee and the F30 has improved the car, not hurt it one iota. There's no incentive for all those E90 drivers to defect to another brand, so they won't.

Instead of harping on the incorrect logic that BMW has done something wrong, try focusing on the correct logic of what BMW did correctly. They softened a car that many thought was too harsh. They enlarged a car that many thought was too small. They poured options into a car that many thought was too stripped. They added a more powerful engine that unbelievably enhances performance and gas mileage. They give more standard features yet keep the monthly prices the same as they've been since 2010. From those perspectives, the F30 is an enormous win and the likes of Audi and Mercedes better be very afraid for their own market share because the F30 is going to steal it like nobody's business.

BJ
Lorenzzo commented:
November 26, 2012, 10:21 pm

I acknowledge the value of comparisons for those looking to buy. As an owner, unless one brand clearly distances my car, I don't really care who's deemed the best. At that point my focus is on whether I like the car. I've had some I've liked, others not so much. Based on the overall experience and many individual aspects I'm happy with the F30. Based on how much I look forward to driving the car it's right there with the best I've owned.

As to those who don't own the car, aren't going to buy it and continue to come here and be critical of it, I view it as miserable people feel compelled to spread their misery. I don't see how they provide anything other than a sad sideshow.
captainaudio commented:
November 26, 2012, 10:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Cadillac feels the negative repercussions of some lousy 1980's vehicles to this very day.

BMW will feel the positive repercussions of the 3 Series 1980's and 1990's reputation for years to come.

The F30 is a superior car for similar money to the E90, so the only thing that can affect sales is if BMW knocks themselves off with a 2 Series sedan. As you well know, BMW owners are loyal to a tee and the F30 has improved the car, not hurt it one iota. There's no incentive for all those E90 drivers to defect to another brand, so they won't.

Instead of harping on the incorrect logic that BMW has done something wrong, try focusing on the correct logic of what BMW did correctly. They softened a car that many thought was too harsh. They enlarged a car that many thought was too small. They poured options into a car that many thought was too stripped. They added a more powerful engine that unbelievably enhances performance and gas mileage. They give more standard features yet keep the monthly prices the same as they've been since 2010. From those perspectives, the F30 is an enormous win and the likes of Audi and Mercedes better be very afraid for their own market share because the F30 is going to steal it like nobody's business.

BJ
I have seen a few F30s in Florida over the past few weeks. I may have seen more but not noticed that they were F30s.
Just for the hell of it I may go to Braman BMW in Palm Beach and test drive one this week.

CA
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 26, 2012, 10:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have seen a few F30s in Florida over the past few weeks. I may have seen more but not noticed that they were F30s.
Just for the hell of it I may go to Braman BMW in Palm Beach and test drive one this week.

CA
I think you should do it, and I believe you'll walk away impressed with the suspension and how finely it's been tuned compared to the E9x generation.
captainaudio commented:
November 26, 2012, 10:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I think you should do it, and I believe you'll walk away impressed with the suspension and how finely it's been tuned compared to the E9x generation.
I thought the suspension on my 335i was great while I had the car in South Florida. After I had it shipped to NYC I hated the harsh ride so much I was ready to either set fire to it or push it into the East River. The way the car is set up now (Conti DWS, Koni FSDs) I am happy with the suspension. I would have to drive an F30 in NYC before I could really make a comparison. I'm in a Mercedes Rental for 2 months. We may go car shopping this week but I doubt we will purchase another Florida car.
krash commented:
November 26, 2012, 11:06 pm

Big deal. 1 idiot from Motor Trend thinks the 335 finished 3rd. Whoopty doo. It's not as if his word is gospel...
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 27, 2012, 12:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I thought the suspension on my 335i was great while I had the car in South Florida. After I had it shipped to NYC I hated the harsh ride so much I was ready to either set fire to it or push it into the East River. The way the car is set up now (Conti DWS, Koni FSDs) I am happy with the suspension. I would have to drive an F30 in NYC before I could really make a comparison. I'm in a Mercedes Rental for 2 months. We may go car shopping this week but I doubt we will purchase another Florida car.
The F30's Chassis handles DC potholes like a champ. I'm sure it can take on NY as well. How's the Mercedes treating you?
cordoor commented:
November 27, 2012, 1:48 am

I've read most of these comments and there are too many to respond to, but I'll agree with most of what BJ has said.

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).

BMW's usability and ergonomics are fantastic. He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

But you also can't discount the little things these reviews ignore. For example, the BMW knobs to adjust the temperature are significantly more usable than the push buttons found in other vehicles.

Or how about a nuance like this: In the all new Lexus GS350, to turn off the turn single, you have to push the stock in the opposite direction in which the turn single is pointing (you push down to turn left, but then you want to turn it off, you naturally want to push down again... not in the Lexus, you have to push up).

These are the little details that are so frustrating about other cars and not frustrating about the BMW.

But they don't mention this stuff in reviews. No, the guy is only concerned about twisty roads which he knows darn well account for only 2% of his driving.

The reviews aren't weighted correctly in terms of what buyers actually care about.

I'm sure we'd all love driving the ATS on a curvy road. But almost every day my drive is a commute to work and navigating parking lots. I drive a 5 and every time I have to use a 3 loaner, I don't enjoy it as much because the steering is so stiff. I'd enjoy the loaner more if I decide to maybe once in a while perhaps possibly by outside chance take it on a canyon road (here in Utah). But the fact is, that is not reality. That is not day to day driving.

I'm ordering a new F10 this week (I currently drive an E60). I drove my E60 then the F10 in a twisty canyon road back to back (immediately back to back) to compare. Did the E60 provide more steering feedback? Yes, some. Which did I enjoy more? I probably enjoyed driving the E60 slightly more. Which interior did I enjoy more? (probably a rhetorical question, but to be clear: F10). The F10 is so much more polished in every way than the E60. Which did I enjoy more driving between the dealership and the canyon road? The F10 by a long shot.

I like what BMW is doing. If you want an old 3 series, get a 1 series.

-Corey
dtc100 commented:
November 27, 2012, 3:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
I've read most of these comments and there are too many to respond to, but I'll agree with most of what BJ has said.

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).

BMW's usability and ergonomics are fantastic. He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

But you also can't discount the little things these reviews ignore. For example, the BMW knobs to adjust the temperature are significantly more usable than the push buttons found in other vehicles.

Or how about a nuance like this: In the all new Lexus GS350, to turn off the turn single, you have to push the stock in the opposite direction in which the turn single is pointing (you push down to turn left, but then you want to turn it off, you naturally want to push down again... not in the Lexus, you have to push up).

These are the little details that are so frustrating about other cars and not frustrating about the BMW.

But they don't mention this stuff in reviews. No, the guy is only concerned about twisty roads which he knows darn well account for only 2% of his driving.

The reviews aren't weighted correctly in terms of what buyers actually care about.

I'm sure we'd all love driving the ATS on a curvy road. But almost every day my drive is a commute to work and navigating parking lots. I drive a 5 and every time I have to use a 3 loaner, I don't enjoy it as much because the steering is so stiff. I'd enjoy the loaner more if I decide to maybe once in a while perhaps possibly by outside chance take it on a canyon road (here in Utah). But the fact is, that is not reality. That is not day to day driving.

I'm ordering a new F10 this week (I currently drive an E60). I drove my E60 then the F10 in a twisty canyon road back to back (immediately back to back) to compare. Did the E60 provide more steering feedback? Yes, some. Which did I enjoy more? I probably enjoyed driving the E60 slightly more. Which interior did I enjoy more? (probably a rhetorical question, but to be clear: F10). The F10 is so much more polished in every way than the E60. Which did I enjoy more driving between the dealership and the canyon road? The F10 by a long shot.

I like what BMW is doing. If you want an old 3 series, get a 1 series.

-Corey
Even the most ardent BMW fan will not question the "usability" of a Lexus. In fact BMW is known to play catch up with Japanese counterparts in "usability." While you agree with BJ for the most part, you both should understand the reason you like the new BMW more than the old, is because the new one is more Lexus like.

In fact even the newer generations of mainstream models, such as Camry, Accord, Fusion, or Malibu, have better "usability" than any entry level luxury models. All of them can take care of your "98%" of driving, often times more comfortably. So why buy a sporty luxury model? Either you buy it for the badge, or you buy it so you can really have some fun with that "2%" of driving.
Chris90 commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).
He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.
If I didn't know better I'd assume you were describing an Acura. practical, useable interior, and big LCD screen.

We're talking about Ultimate Driving Machines here.
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 8:36 am

I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA
Q. Senna commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:09 am

I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."
Chris90 commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."
Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers.
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:22 am

I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:24 am

I think the Motor Trend reviewer gave his honest opinions of the cars he drove. I may not necessarily agree (I have never driven an ATS or an F30) but I don't think he had any ulterior motives or was bought off by GM.

CA
Q. Senna commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:28 am

Quote:
Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers.

All of the reviews between Audis and BMWs are true: Audis understeer horribly and don't deliver enough power at the right times while sporting mediocre gearboxes and a "jack of all trades, but master of none" attitude matched with a usually great look exterior. *deep breathe*

Our ATS is a 3.6 Performance and has been into our Cadillac Service Dept. 3 times already for issues. I agree with what you said about being advertisers, 100%.
Q. Senna commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:32 am

Quote:
I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.
C250s are great cars to drive everyday. The interior is a wonderful place to be and the engine can be a blast to mess around with in town. What I'm speaking about is when you push it a little bit. During 'spirited' driving I honestly don't feel comfortable driving a Mercedes-Benz unless it's a 63 of some sort. Again, around town and driving mildly aggressively it is an fantastic machine.
lqaddict commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."
Given the reviewer knowledge of the cars origins - Mercedes-Benz is produced in Munich and BMW in Stuttgart speaks volumes on who are the potential target for this comparison campaign.
Whoever pays the advertising wins, so GM did here.
I just need to venture to tirerack.com and watch the tire reviews, and see what cars are being driven in these reviews to get a good idea who might be a king of the hill.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:40 am

You have to love all the excuses LOL! There is a very good reason the 3 series has won most if not all the comparisons in the PAST. It was because of steering, handling and the overall driving feel. Pretty much the same reason the ATS was declared a winner here. The tables have turned and the ATS is a better sport sedan. Multiple reviews stated the same. The F30 is moving the same direction the F10 did. In no longer is what the 3 series was and there is a 2 series on the horizon for this reason.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Given the reviewer knowledge of the cars origins - Mercedes-Benz is produced in Munich and BMW in Stuttgart speaks volumes on who are the potential target for this comparison campaign.
Whoever pays the advertising wins, so GM did here.
I just need to venture to tirerack.com and watch the tire reviews, and see what cars are being driven in these reviews to get a good idea who might be a king of the hill.
It was a joke.
justinnum1 commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA
i dont think that has changed. and the thing to consider is the group of buyers that really notice this are the >10% that buy a BMW. i think there is a much greater chance the bmw gains new customers from the lexus and mercedes crowd than lose them to go to an ATS.

I am very please with my F30. My only complaint is its a little large, but everything is an improvement over the E90 335 i had(except the N54>N55)(but ppk should solve that)
lqaddict commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It was a joke.
Was it? I think it was a blunter.
cordoor commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Even the most ardent BMW fan will not question the "usability" of a Lexus. In fact BMW is known to play catch up with Japanese counterparts in "usability." While you agree with BJ for the most part, you both should understand the reason you like the new BMW more than the old, is because the new one is more Lexus like.

In fact even the newer generations of mainstream models, such as Camry, Accord, Fusion, or Malibu, have better "usability" than any entry level luxury models. All of them can take care of your "98%" of driving, often times more comfortably. So why buy a sporty luxury model? Either you buy it for the badge, or you buy it so you can really have some fun with that "2%" of driving.
I drove the all new GS 350. I have not driven any other Lexus. Perhaps they have taken a step back?

Their controller is difficult to use because it requires greater concentration and focus. Their iDrive counterpart was more confusing. The push button temperature gauge is less usable than a dialog. There was the mentioned issue with the turn signal.

There were other issues that I can't remember. But even these I mention were enough to exclude it from my consideration.

Regarding Honda, I have driven them too. I have an Odyssey. Its' nav interface is significantly less usable than my E60's old iDrive. The buttons on the dash are confusing because Honda makes them dual use (e.g. DVD controls when playing a DVD, radio controls and pre-selections when doing audio). Dual use buttons are a disaster.

Anyway...

-Corey
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i dont think that has changed. and the thing to consider is the group of buyers that really notice this are the >10% that buy a BMW. i think there is a much greater chance the bmw gains new customers from the lexus and mercedes crowd than lose them to go to an ATS.

I am very please with my F30. My only complaint is its a little large, but everything is an improvement over the E90 335 i had(except the N54>N55)(but ppk should solve that)
I think it is inevitable that the 3 Series will lose some of the raw edge of the earlier models and do not see that as a bad thing. Things progress and if BMW were to reincarnate the 2002 I don't think it would be particularly well accepted. My point has always been that performance and good driving dynamics and practicality and comfort can exist on the same car.

I have spoken to representatives from both BMW and Lexus. Although they were probably speaking off the record Lexus is very aware that they need to have a more sporty image and BMW is very aware that the harshness of the E9x suspenion (particularly the sport suspension) and the RFTs was an issue to many buyers. I also spoke to someone from Mercedes and he said "We don't want to make the same mistake BMW did with thier implementation of RFTs. All of these companies are trying to retain the qualities that made their cars attractive to their core ustomers and gain the attributes that buyers of the competition felt made their cars more desirable.

The bottom line is that BMW will gain some Lexus attributes and Lexus will gain some BMW attributes and hopefully both brands will retain the qualities that atrracted their present customers.

Only time will tell.

CA
dtc100 commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:41 am

If advertising dollars were the reason, GM must have bought out not just MT, C&D, PM, Esquire, Canadian auto journalist association, US Motor Press Guild...

Even if we suppose the F30 iDrive is the best in the class, and that was the reason someone chose BMW over Lexus, some of it had to do with the guy being used to BMW because he has been driving a 5 series all this time.

But hey it is good that a 5 series driver comes here to support BJ's new 3 series, it proves his points. BMW has made big improvements in usability, luxury and comfort, as a result they will continue to sell well, grab market share from MB, Lexus, Audi and Acura. Nothing wrong with that.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If advertising dollars were the reason, GM must have bought out not just MT, C&D, PM, Esquire, Canadian auto journalist association, US Motor Press Guild...

Even if we suppose the F30 iDrive is the best in the class, and that was the reason someone chose BMW over Lexus, some of it had to do with the guy being used to BMW because he has been driving a 5 series all this time.

But hey it is good that a 5 series driver comes here to support BJ's new 3 series, it proves his points. BMW has made big improvements in usability, luxury and comfort, as a result they will continue to sell well, grab market share from MB, Lexus, Audi and Acura. Nothing wrong with that.
How quickly we seem to forget that everyone other mag comparo with the F30 328-the ATS has been trumped where the F30 comes in first. As we know, most of these cars are sold with entry level engines. So where is GM's dollars to save them there?
av98 commented:
November 27, 2012, 11:27 am

F30 the ultimate Swiss army knife driving machine
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 27, 2012, 12:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
How quickly we seem to forget that everyone other mag comparo with the F30 328-the ATS has been trumped where the F30 comes in first. As we know, most of these cars are sold with entry level engines. So where is GM's dollars to save them there?
It had to do with the 6 speed manual in the ATS, which BTW GM is revising and halted production of same to address the issues. However if you look at the recent comparison of the 2.0T models C & D did you can see that the F30 lost by a lot where it really matters, which is the chassis.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rison-test.pdf

10 vs 7 for the Caddy when it comes to steering, braking and handling. These again are the main reasons the previous 3 series has won all the comparisons.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.) The ATS is unquestionably the more satisfying sports sedan of these two."
DPP528 commented:
November 27, 2012, 12:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
There's always Porsche.
I completely agree;

To me it's a shame that BMW didn't follow Porsche's model; consistently improving on what is already great and flawless. Cadillac is attempting to beat the 3 series at its own game. It shows the impact that the Japanese tech-laden land-yachts on the overall car industry. Before they were real contenders BMW could stick to it's simple and elegant design. Porsche, well the 911 at least, is really in a league of its own. Sure there are other very comparable vehicles at a similar price point but you can't drive any of them to work every day. Like BMWs of yore, the 911 is great just because; and no, it doesn't have a reverse camera!

Frankly I tested an F30 328 and I found the whole experience rather dull compared to an E90. I really did want to like it, but the vague steering, poor throttle response of the turbo and coarseness of the engine really turned me off. I much preferred the c300, it just felt more natural, composed and much more comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

BJ
I am by no means relegated to driving my E39- I don't drive an e60 or even an F10 because I prefer it to the newer models and simply don't want one. I could have ditched the car years ago, but I like it, and that's what matters. I refuse to buy a new car on the time-frame of society and couldn't care less if people think it's "out of style," it's not a race.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 27, 2012, 1:46 pm

Today I confirmed that Bosch Makes Porsches electric steering unit.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Today I confirmed that Bosch Makes Porsches electric steering unit.
Interesting. ZF claims they do. www.zf.com. In Products and Services do a search for Porsche. Though I also found at least one website that is a ZF/Bosch collaboration. It's a little confusing.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 27, 2012, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Interesting. ZF claims they do. www.zf.com. In Products and Services do a search for a Porsche. Though I also found at least one website that is a ZF/Bosch collaboration. It's a little confusing.
It is a bit confusing.From what I found out, Bosch also provides the DME for Porsches electrical systems. What I'm interested to know is if Bosch makes BMW's electric steering unit, and if so, why can't they tune it like they tuned Porsches? Looks like it's time to dig deeper.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It is a bit confusing.From what I found out, Bosch also provides the DME for Porsches electrical systems. What I'm interested to know is if Bosch makes BMW's electric steering unit, and if so, why can't they tune it like they tuned Porsches? Looks like it's time to dig deeper.
Unless it's a ZF/Bosch collaboration ZF makes BMW's unit. I spoke at length with a ZF rep in January at the NAIAS in Detroit. They also provide the EPS for Ford's Super Duty trucks (probably other Ford products, too). He was telling me the tuning is determined by the automaker. According to him they can accommodate whatever specs the automaker wants.


EDIT: I just Googled ZF Steering Systems and there is a ZF/Bosch collaboration.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 27, 2012, 3:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Unless it's a ZF/Bosch collaboration ZF makes BMW's unit. I spoke at length with a ZF rep in January at the NAIAS in Detroit. They also provide the EPS for Ford's Super Duty trucks (probably other Ford products, too). He was telling me the tuning is determined by the automaker. According to him they can accommodate whatever specs the automaker wants.


EDIT: I just Googled ZF Steering Systems and there is a ZF/Bosch collaboration.
Then we have just found our answer. Thanks!
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 27, 2012, 5:49 pm

The thing I miss most about the e9x is that awesome, buttery smooth, amazing sounding, I6 engine.
hellosopo commented:
November 27, 2012, 6:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily.
My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosopo View Post
My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
That is an anomaly and a defect in materials and/or workmanship. You should take it in to the dealer to be rectified under warranty. If you choose to live with it that us 100% on you.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The thing I miss most about the e9x is that awesome, buttery smooth, amazing sounding, I6 engine.
And I continue to maintain that if BMW had really cared about this they could have spent some R & D on a smaller displacement turbo I6 for the 328. They've certainly built plenty of smaller displacement I6s in the past. They've even built a 2.0 liter I6. They purposefully chose the cheap, easy route for the N20. Unfortunately, for you and me and others like us it appears the market is pretty readily accepting their cheap ass decision. I continue to be amazed at how little backlash there has been to the four banger in the 3er. Though the acceptance doesn't seem to be as widespread with potential 528 buyers. Fortunately for BMW the 528 is a pretty low volume seller in the U.S.
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:17 pm

My E93 335i had a very annoying rattle coming from the dash area that was there the day I got the car. It annoyed the crap out of me and I thought it was unacceptable on what was supposed to be a solidly built car.
After a few days with the car and before I had a chance to take it to the dealer it went away. At this point with about 40,000 miles on the odometer the car is rattle free and very quiet. It feels very solid and tight and considering the beating it has taken on NYC roads I think that speaks volumes for the build quality.

The rattle never returned and I never found out what caused it.

CA
Elk commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
F30 the ultimate Swiss army knife driving machine
Hmm . . .
Swiss Army knives are oversized, heavy, average at accomplishing every task - not much of a benchmark.
Michael Schott commented:
November 27, 2012, 7:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosopo View Post
My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
I've driven a total of 60K miles in my 2 E90's and both were tight and rattle free. My 2011 with 21,000 miles is as solid as the day I bought it. No rattles at all.
SARAFIL commented:
November 27, 2012, 8:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Was it? I think it was a blunter.
It was a joke- meaning BMW features are determined by whatever MB is thinking of in Stuttgart, and vice versa for MB copying BMW

Some of y'all need to pay closer attention before jumping to conclusions.
MMME30W commented:
November 27, 2012, 8:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
And I continue to maintain that if BMW had really cared about this they could have spent some R & D on a smaller displacement turbo I6 for the 328. They've certainly built plenty of smaller displacement I6s in the past. They've even built a 2.0 liter I6. They purposefully chose the cheap, easy route for the N20. Unfortunately, for you and me and others like us it appears the market is pretty readily accepting their cheap ass decision. I continue to be amazed at how little backlash there has been to the four banger in the 3er. Though the acceptance doesn't seem to be as widespread with potential 528 buyers. Fortunately for BMW the 528 is a pretty low volume seller in the U.S.
Well to be fair they seem to have been successful. I've read that the N20 rattles on startup from the exterior, and perhaps is not as smooth spinning up as an I6. But that seems small potatoes compared to good passing power low down as well as good fuel economy. I think BMW chose the right path, if the right path is judged by greater perceived value by those actually buying cars, vs. the smaller percentage of those who want the smoothness of an I6.

YMMV of course.
MMME30W commented:
November 27, 2012, 8:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I've driven a total of 60K miles in my 2 E90's and both were tight and rattle free. My 2011 with 21,000 miles is as solid as the day I bought it. No rattles at all.
Ya, 2011 E90 I drove for 11K was as tight as a drum.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Well to be fair they seem to have been successful. I've read that the N20 rattles on startup from the exterior, and perhaps is not as smooth spinning up as an I6. But that seems small potatoes compared to good passing power low down as well as good fuel economy. I think BMW chose the right path, if the right path is judged by greater perceived value by those actually buying cars, vs. the smaller percentage of those who want the smoothness of an I6.

YMMV of course.
Oh, believe me, it rattles!! Standing next to the car it is louder than the 335d. Significantly.

One of my main points is that BMW could have achieved the same results, low rpm torque/power and good fuel economy with a smaller displacement turbo inline six. Just look at the fuel numbers for the 335i v the 328i. Most of the 328i's fuel economy comes from the ZF 8AT. I honestly believe they probably could have achieved the current fuel economy (or come VERY close) with the N/A I6 from the E9x just with the change to the 8AT and the addition of direct injection. The 2011 3.0 liter I6 528i with the 8AT was rated at 22 city/32 highway. The 2011 328i, with exactly the same 3.0 liter I6, but the 6 speed auto was rated at 18/28.
Chris90 commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Oh, believe me, it rattles!! Standing next to the car it is louder than the 335d. Significantly.

One of my main points is that BMW could have achieved the same results, low rpm torque/power and good fuel economy with a smaller displacement turbo inline six. Just look at the fuel numbers for the 335i v the 328i. Most of the 328i's fuel economy comes from the ZF 8AT. I honestly believe they could probably have achieved (or come VERY close) the current fuel economy with the N/A I6 from the E9x just with the change to the 8AT and the addition of direct injection. The 2011 3.0 liter I6 528i with the 8AT was rated at 22 city/32 highway. The 2011 328i, with exactly the same 3.0 liter I6, but the 6 speed auto was rated at 18/28.
4 is probably a lot cheaper, and I know in Japan, the taxes are lower on smaller engines, could be other countries too.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 9:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
4 is probably a lot cheaper, and I know in Japan, the taxes are lower on smaller engines, could be other countries too.
Based on cylinders or displacement, in Japan? In Europe it is based on displacement, but that has very little bearing for this discussion, because BMW has been selling small displacement four bangers in Europe for decades.
CALWATERBOY commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinn Lasser View Post
Aaaiiieeeeee!!! Not a Lexus!! Please say it ain't so!!!!!!.

Lexus leads the way to a brave new world....have you seen their new Sport LS?

Wimped M div best get movin'!!

captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinn Lasser View Post
Aaaiiieeeeee!!! Not a Lexus!! Please say it ain't so!!!!!!

.
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
captainaudio commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
justinnum1 commented:
November 27, 2012, 10:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
why havent you posted this in the F10 forum?
Elk commented:
November 27, 2012, 11:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA


Perfect. This should eliminate a page or two of predictable fussing.
tturedraider commented:
November 27, 2012, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
why havent you posted this in the F10 forum?
Yeah.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
That's my line!
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Lexus leads the way to a brave new world....have you seen their new Sport LS?

Wimped M div better get movin'!!

I think I just went blind. That thing is hideous.
cordoor commented:
November 28, 2012, 4:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."
This wasn't my experience when I drove it.

I wonder what I was doing wrong ;-)

-Corey
Michael Schott commented:
November 28, 2012, 8:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90. Not hard to beat in a comparo. Let's see if the next IS beats the 3 series.
jmsent commented:
November 28, 2012, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90. Not hard to beat in a comparo. Let's see if the next IS beats the 3 series.
Which begs the question: When will Lexus show the next IS? The existing one was around when the E46 was still a current model. You would think Toyota, with all its money and resources would be a bit more dynamic with their top line brand.
Quinn Lasser commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Lexus leads the way to a brave new world....have you seen their new Sport LS?

Wimped M div best get movin'!!

I wouldn't get a Lexus if it had wings and could fly. This has nothing to do with performance or style. It's purely emotional. Where I live, every other car is a Lexus. They tend to be the most obnoxious, rudest and most inept drivers on the road. They have a sense of "entitlement" when they drive that puts them in a class all their own. Yeah, yeah, it's a huge generalization, but where we live, that's how it is.
cordoor commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90.
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.

Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
Chris90 commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:00 pm

An important thing to remember is, when reading C&D, R&T, or any of the magazines that sell for 30 cents an issue, and full of car ads, they are required to love every car, whether it's a Lexus, BMW or Cadillac.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinn Lasser View Post
I wouldn't get a Lexus if it had wings and could fly. This has nothing to do with performance or style. It's purely emotional. Where I live, every other car is a Lexus. They tend to be the most obnoxious, rudest and most inept drivers on the road. They have a sense of "entitlement" when they drive that puts them in a class all their own. Yeah, yeah, it's a huge generalization, but where we live, that's how it is.
You just described a typical BMW driver in my area. This is one thing I really don't like about my 3 series, that is the stigma it comes with it.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.
Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
We have an '08 535xi also and the dealer gave me an F10 535i loaner for a day which I took advantage of by driving it through the paces. I'm surprised that you feel the E60 feels close to the F10. It took my wife (the 535xi is hers and she loves BMWs) 10 minutes to say that she wants to keep her car for a long time if this is what BMW has done with the 5 Series. I purchased the BMW extended warranty for her car shortly afterwards.

We also own an E93 335is convertible.
tturedraider commented:
November 28, 2012, 12:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.

Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
I have driven them all (the previous GS, not the new one). And I'm with you. The F10 benefits from ARS a little more than the E60, but it is no slouch. And it is not even close to the Chicken Little scenario so many bemoan. When the F10 first came out BMW did a driving event in my area with the Merc E350 and the Lexus GS350. (They also used the Audi A6 in other areas.). All were similarly equipped and were not loaded to the hilt with all the available technology. The 535i ran circles around the E and the GS. The E was especially bad. I was surprised.

BMW definitely increased the luxury factor on the F10 to attract more E Class buyers, but they didn't completely sell out the 5er to do it. btw - I've driven lots of E60s and F10s, not just once at a driving event.
Quinn Lasser commented:
November 28, 2012, 1:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You just described a typical BMW driver in my area. This is one thing I really don't like about my 3 series, that is the stigma it comes with it.
It's interesting, different regions spawn different types of drivers. I was in the Philadelphia area a few years back and the most aggressive drivers were definitely the BMW drivers. Here, the BMW drivers are mostly tame. The Jaguar and Caddy drivers are the older people (that's a Jaguar for god's sake, it *wants* to be driven), the Mercedes drivers and the Audi drivers tend to fade into the background. The Lexus drivers are a dime a dozen and the Ranger Rover drivers tend to be aggressive as well. But I digress...
cordoor commented:
November 28, 2012, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It took my wife (the 535xi is hers and she loves BMWs) 10 minutes to say that she wants to keep her car for a long time if this is what BMW has done with the 5 Series.
She may be better at noticing the difference than I am. I thought my E60 up a canyon road here near my home was marginally better than the F10, but not lots better.

My E60 has the sport package, but does *not* have active roll stabilization. Does your wife's? That could be a difference too.

I will also admit that I am a visual person so the interior of the F10 immediately won me over and to my eyes is miles ahead of the E60. I test drove the new GS because, again, being a visual person, I thought the interior was very classy (love the analog clock). But its driving dynamics were not as good as either the F10 or obviously the E60.

-Corey
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
She may be better at noticing the difference than I am. I thought my E60 up a canyon road here near my home was marginally better than the F10, but not lots better.

My E60 has the sport package, but does *not* have active roll stabilization. Does your wife's? That could be a difference too.

I will also admit that I am a visual person so the interior of the F10 immediately won me over and to my eyes is miles ahead of the E60. I test drove the new GS because, again, being a visual person, I thought the interior was very classy (love the analog clock). But its driving dynamics were not as good as either the F10 or obviously the E60.

-Corey
It's been about a year since we had the F10. She was initially put off by the front bumper and the overall size of the car appeared larger. She really liked the cup holders but hated the interior wood color and thought the dash looked cheapened. The biggest issue for her was the performance. She is a confident driver. The F10 felt sluggish getting onto the highway and sloppy on our back country roads. The brakes did not have as much bite either, and the car had much more body roll around corners.

My wife had a 2001 740il which we leased for business and she really loved. I wish we would have purchased the car at the end of the lease. The next car was an Infinity M45 which was a mistake as she hated the car and wanted back into a BMW. She really did not initially like the looks of the E60 but liked it much better than the 7 Series at the time. Now it's grown on her and the platinum-bronze exterior with cream interior helps the look, IMO.

Her car does not have the sport suspension (for sure) nor active roll stabilization (that I know of?). I bought a second set of 18" M Division wheels and Michelin ultra high performance tires for the summer which helps the car feel more connected to the road. Our 535xi also only has about 22,000 miles on it and still looks new, so I'm happy that she wants to keep it a while longer.
cordoor commented:
November 28, 2012, 5:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Now it's grown on her and the platinum-bronze exterior with cream interior helps the look, IMO.
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
tturedraider commented:
November 28, 2012, 5:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
That is true. The xDrive has hydraulic power steering. The rwd has eps.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 6:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
Enjoy your new car. It sounds like you're excited about it. I'm sure the F10 will grow on my wife in the future, but right now, she still loves her E60 especially now with her winter set of wheels/snow tires.

PS: I'm glad you upgraded the wood trim. The standard woods look like cheap plastic.
justinnum1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Enjoy your new car. It sounds like you're excited about it. I'm sure the F10 will grow on my wife in the future, but right now, she still loves her E60 especially now with her winter set of wheels/snow tires.

PS: I'm glad you upgraded the wood trim. The standard woods look like cheap plastic.
have her look at the GS too.
hellosopo commented:
November 28, 2012, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
That is an anomaly and a defect in materials and/or workmanship. You should take it in to the dealer to be rectified under warranty. If you choose to live with it that us 100% on you.
The rattles are generally transient, so I don't have confidence the dealer would put in the effort to find it and fix it. It's there one day, gone the next, back another day after that. Rear parcel shelf. 3rd brake light housing. Driver cup holder when open. Something in the dash. Something around the front passenger seat. The buzz in the left B pillar (oh my God, this one is maddening!)

And to be honest, I am afraid that having them ripping the car apart to fix rattles will leave me with even more rattles.

Not to mention the whistling driver side mirror when the window is down, which is definitely not a defect in materials or workmanship. It is exactly as designed and completely wrong for a vehicle of this status. Yes I know how to fix it, the question is why I have to fix it in the first place. The first time I heard it I was having childhood flashbacks to rides in my Dad's old Plymouth Valiant from the '70s.

So when my rattly 3-Series gets to the point of me wanting to get rid of it, the ATS is definitely on my radar. My 328 drives marvelously, it's so comfortable (except for the annoying rattles), and I love how it looks. But I ****canned the Mazda3 it replaced because it turned into a rattle trap, only to find another much more expensive car that has the same exact problem. The rattly test drive should've been an omen, but I was so caught up in how great everything else was about the car that I didn't put adequate concern to the rattles. Now I know.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 7:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
have her look at the GS too.
We still have over 2 years left on the extended warranty for the '08 535xi. I figure I'll put it up for sale when we have about one year left so it will be attractive to a potential private buyer. The car is in super condition.

My wife also loves the 335is so she may take that one for her car and use the Tahoe during bad and winter weather. I currently use the Tahoe as my highway cruiser between FL & PA. If she takes the Tahoe, then I'll replace our '01 Suburban with some other reliable all-wheel drive highway cruiser.
MMME30W commented:
November 28, 2012, 7:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."

CA
Good read. Now, that guy knows what he is talking about.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 8:14 pm

Some of you have mentioned having interest in the new Porsche Cayman. Here's a Youtube marketing video showing the new Cayman. I think they did a nice job with the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_kqOxyLc4Kc
boltjaM3s commented:
November 28, 2012, 8:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Some of you have mentioned having interest in the new Porsche Cayman. Here's a Youtube marketing video showing the new Cayman. I think they did a nice job with the car.
No, nobody mentioned that.

Nor did anyone in the F30 forum mention that we wanted you to continue to tell us how you have a Porsche. We get it. We're not impressed. What, the kiddies in the E90 forum don't worship at the alter of beden anymore? Not our problem.

BJ
dunderhi commented:
November 28, 2012, 8:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The biggest issue for her was the performance. She is a confident driver. The F10 felt sluggish getting onto the highway and sloppy on our back country roads. The brakes did not have as much bite either, and the car had much more body roll around corners.
Have her try a 550xi with Dinan Stage 2 (501hp/580ftlbs). No one has ever test driven my car and not had a sh!t-eating grin on their face.
MMME30W commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Some of you have mentioned having interest in the new Porsche Cayman. Here's a Youtube marketing video showing the new Cayman. I think they did a nice job with the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_kqOxyLc4Kc
Wierd, I like Caymans, but I found this video very irritating. I could hardly get a look at the cars.

Edit: Better link:

http://wot.motortrend.com/2013-porsc...#axzz2DZbteLHB
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, nobody mentioned that.

Nor did anyone in the F30 forum mention that we wanted you to continue to tell us how you have a Porsche. We get it. We're not impressed. What, the kiddies in the E90 forum don't worship at the alter of beden anymore? Not our problem.

BJ
The Cayman has been mentioned numerous times and I'm not trying to impress anyone. This is a car forum and some of us are interested in many different cars. I wonder what you're trying to do though, besides being a miserable human being? I feel sorry for you as your life must be very disappointing.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Wierd, I like Caymans, but I found this video very irritating. I could hardly get a look at the cars.

Edit: Better link:

http://wot.motortrend.com/2013-porsc...#axzz2DZbteLHB
Thanks for the link. I never knew that the Cayman is over $10,000 more in base price than the Boxster. I wonder why that is? It's the opposite for the Carrera Cabriolet versus the coupe.
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Have her try a 550xi with Dinan Stage 2 (501hp/580ftlbs). No one has ever test driven my car and not had a sh!t-eating grin on their face.
I wanted her to look at the Audi RS5 and she said she would probably kill herself with more power than what she has. She's a more agressive driver than I am.
MMME30W commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Thanks for the link. I never knew that the Cayman is over $10,000 more in base price than the Boxster. I wonder why that is? It's the opposite for the Carrera Cabriolet versus the coupe.
Yeah dunno. Hard top?

Always liked them, gave them a serious look at them after I sold the E90...
Chris90 commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Thanks for the link. I never knew that the Cayman is over $10,000 more in base price than the Boxster. I wonder why that is? It's the opposite for the Carrera Cabriolet versus the coupe.
It's cause the cayman usually has $10,000 incentives on it.

Seriously, it's cause Porsche made the Boxster first, then when they made the Cayman, what were they gonna do, drop the price $10k?
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
It's cause the cayman usually has $10,000 incentives on it.

Seriously, it's cause Porsche made the Boxster first, then when they made the Cayman, what were they gonna do, drop the price $10k?
It's strange, as most, if not all other convertibles from the other brands charge more for the verts than for the coupes, including BMW. I'd rather have the Boxster S and use the extra $10,000 for more options.
Michael Schott commented:
November 28, 2012, 10:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.

Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
The F10 is fat. There is no question about it. A 535i weighs over 4100 pounds while the E60 weighed about 3900. I have driven a 535i and it was a damn nice luxury car that handled well. I would say the engine was slightly overburdened for such an expensive car. Not that it was slow but it didn't jump like a 335i.
justinnum1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Some of you have mentioned having interest in the new Porsche Cayman. Here's a Youtube marketing video showing the new Cayman. I think they did a nice job with the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_kqOxyLc4Kc
Yep, most likely will be my next car.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 28, 2012, 10:53 pm

I'm eyeing that Cayman as my next car. Love it. It may take awhile. Took four years to save for the M.
justinnum1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 10:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'm eyeing that Cayman as my next car. Love it. It may take awhile. Took four years to save for the M.
i wouldnt get the cayman s. just a regulr cayman. msrp is 53k, figure 7k in options. 60k.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 28, 2012, 10:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i wouldnt get the cayman s. just a regulr cayman. msrp is 53k, figure 7k in options. 60k.
I'd save for the S.
justinnum1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'd save for the S.
nah. I dont need the extra power. the handling is what im after
boltjaM3s commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The Cayman has been mentioned numerous times and I'm not trying to impress anyone. This is a car forum and some of us are interested in many different cars. I wonder what you're trying to do though, besides being a miserable human being? I feel sorry for you as your life must be very disappointing.
I'm wondering why you keep hijacking multiple threads in a forum you don't belong in, talking down about cars we just bought, talking up cars we don't care about.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a miserable person to you?

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm wondering why you keep hijacking multiple threads in a forum you don't belong in, talking down about cars we just bought, talking up cars we don't care about.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a miserable person to you?

BJ
The day Bimmerfest annoints you as a Moderator will be the day that I leave. But wait, I just remembered that you have been banned from this forum at least once, so I doubt Moderator is in the cards for you. Why don't you hang up your hall monitor badge and play nice like a good little boy, junior.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The day Bimmerfest annoints you as a Moderator will be the day that I leave. But wait, I just remembered that you have been banned from this forum at least once, so I doubt Moderator is in the cards for you. Why don't you hang up your hall monitor badge and play nice like a good little boy, junior.
I would think that of all people, someone of your age and experience would know when enough is enough.

You've got a tight group of friends over on the E9X forum, should be enough for you to discuss a car that you put less than 1500 miles a year on.

The old BJ was banned for the very behavior you're demonstrating. This BJ hasn't been banned because he respects the rules that you aren't respecting.

We go back a long way. Can you tone it down please? I don't think that's too much to ask in a forum filled with owners who have had their cars less than 6 months.

BJ
beden1 commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I would think that of all people, someone of your age and experience would know when enough is enough.

You've got a tight group of friends over on the E9X forum, should be enough for you to discuss a car that you put less than 1500 miles a year on.

The old BJ was banned for the very behavior you're demonstrating. This BJ hasn't been banned because he respects the rules that you aren't respecting.

We go back a long way. Can you tone it down please? I don't think that's too much to ask in a forum filled with owners who have had their cars less than 6 months.

BJ
I have not been the aggressor here, but I am willing to try to get along as long as you play nice.
UnderSteer commented:
November 28, 2012, 11:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm wondering why you keep hijacking multiple threads in a forum you don't belong in, talking down about cars we just bought, talking up cars we don't care about.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a miserable person to you?

BJ
So we are sick of hearing that Beden has a Porsche but appaently are never supposed to tire of hearing about how much money you make, how sucessful you are and how jealous everyone is of you.

BJ,

For a guy who made a career out of ridiculing other peoples cars and calling E90s low status "family grocery getters" (on the E90 forum!) I think you are being more than a bit oversensitive. If you think this forum is where the "adults" hang out you may want to consider acting like one yourself. At times your behavior is childish, mean spirited and out of place on a car enthusiasts forum. It is not your role here to decide who can post in what forum and what they can post. If you don't like the way a particular thread is going you have the option of ignoring it rather than being a self appointed moderator.

I have several "old, out of style" cars and have no intention of buying an F30 although it is a car that I respect and a car that I am curious about. In the meantime I will post in whatever forum I choose until somone who has the authority to do so tells me I can't.

You have the ability to add useful content to these forums and can be very entertaining. I really think that for your own benefit and the benefit of everyone else here you should lighten up, tone down the pettiness and nastiness and channel your enthusiasm and energy in a more positive manner.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 29, 2012, 12:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I have not been the aggressor here, but I am willing to try to get along as long as you play nice.
Done.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
November 29, 2012, 12:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Done.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 29, 2012, 1:08 am

There's a Ignore button for a reason.
MMME30W commented:
November 29, 2012, 6:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'm eyeing that Cayman as my next car. Love it. It may take awhile. Took four years to save for the M.
Did you ever run across a comparo of the Cayman and the E92 M?
Chris90 commented:
November 29, 2012, 7:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderSteer View Post
So we are sick of hearing that Beden has a Porsche but appaently are never supposed to tire of hearing about how much money you make, how sucessful you are and how jealous everyone is of you.

BJ,

For a guy who made a career out of ridiculing other peoples cars and calling E90s low status "family grocery getters" (on the E90 forum!) I think you are being more than a bit oversensitive. If you think this forum is where the "adults" hang out you may want to consider acting like one yourself. At times your behavior is childish, mean spirited and out of place on a car enthusiasts forum. It is not your role here to decide who can post in what forum and what they can post. If you don't like the way a particular thread is going you have the option of ignoring it rather than being a self appointed moderator.

I have several "old, out of style" cars and have no intention of buying an F30 although it is a car that I respect and a car that I am curious about. In the meantime I will post in whatever forum I choose until somone who has the authority to do so tells me I can't.

You have the ability to add useful content to these forums and can be very entertaining. I really think that for your own benefit and the benefit of everyone else here you should lighten up, tone down the pettiness and nastiness and channel your enthusiasm and energy in a more positive manner.
+1

BJ, if you can't take the heat, don't dish out so much of it.
Chris90 commented:
November 29, 2012, 7:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
There's a Ignore button for a reason.
BJ is way too entertaining for that.
boltjaM3s commented:
November 29, 2012, 8:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

BJ, if you can't take the heat, don't dish out so much of it.
I don't want to keep the whining going as it is boring for everyone, but to clarify:

The heat I (and a few others) dish out has nothing to do with trying to enrage E46 and E90 owners. We have no grudge against you.

It is in response to E46 and E90 owners trying to enrage us. A few of you have a grudge against us and BMW. A few of you think that by making a mess of this forum that you're getting some "message" to Munich and BMW is going to "listen" to you. That's not the case. All you're doing is pissing off F30 owners in a forum that's designed for them to interact amongst themselves and share their enthusiasm for the new 3 Series.

I'm off the soap box; just cut the crap.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
November 29, 2012, 9:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I don't want to keep the whining going as it is boring for everyone, but to clarify:

The heat I (and a few others) dish out has nothing to do with trying to enrage E46 and E90 owners. We have no grudge against you.

It is in response to E46 and E90 owners trying to enrage us. A few of you have a grudge against us and BMW. A few of you think that by making a mess of this forum that you're getting some "message" to Munich and BMW is going to "listen" to you. That's not the case. All you're doing is pissing off F30 owners in a forum that's designed for them to interact amongst themselves and share their enthusiasm for the new 3 Series.

I'm off the soap box; just cut the crap.

BJ
Fair enough, we should put a moratorium on new Cadillac threads.
Michael Schott commented:
November 29, 2012, 10:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Fair enough, we should put a moratorium on new Cadillac threads.
No, we should put a moratorium on being able to blow up ATS threads. Lets just frikking grow up here and show the ability to have an open conversation about the comparison. Leave out all the other BS. It's undeniably a serious rival to the 3 series.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 29, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Did you ever run across a comparo of the Cayman and the E92 M?
Nope. Two completely different cars for completely different purposes. I want to experience the full sports car experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
BJ is way too entertaining for that.
Some don't seem to see it that way.
Q. Senna commented:
November 29, 2012, 12:26 pm

Quote:
It's undeniably a serious rival to the 3 series.
I disagree. Like I've said before, our ATS demo is already creaky, rattling and the engine and brakes feel very tired. This is at 2,000 miles. At this isn't even mentioning sales of the ATS vs the F30.

I am very anxious for the day when the United States makes amazing cars that can compare to German automobiles. I think the ATS is a desperate, but good step in the right direction for the wrong manufacturer. Cadillac should be focusing on building the Ciel, not a plasticy XTS and ATS that they are trying to compare to the German competition.

/shrug
EddieB commented:
November 29, 2012, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
I disagree. Like I've said before, our ATS demo is already creaky, rattling and the engine and brakes feel very tired. This is at 2,000 miles. At this isn't even mentioning sales of the ATS vs the F30.

I am very anxious for the day when the United States makes amazing cars that can compare to German automobiles. I think the ATS is a desperate, but good step in the right direction for the wrong manufacturer. Cadillac should be focusing on building the Ciel, not a plasticy XTS and ATS that they are trying to compare to the German competition.

/shrug
Not to hijack the Cadillac thread but I'm driving a new (2k miles) Dodge Challenger loaner car and I have to say I am very impressed with the suspension and the cockpit. The steering wheel is almost as nice as a Bimmer's. Don't like the 5sp Slushy though.

It is very quiet, no creaks or rattles either.

It is nice to see that the US is putting out something like that. I imagine the top end model with 470HP or whatever it is, would give an M3 a run for its money in the quarter mile.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
I disagree. Like I've said before, our ATS demo is already creaky, rattling and the engine and brakes feel very tired. This is at 2,000 miles. At this isn't even mentioning sales of the ATS vs the F30.

I am very anxious for the day when the United States makes amazing cars that can compare to German automobiles. I think the ATS is a desperate, but good step in the right direction for the wrong manufacturer. Cadillac should be focusing on building the Ciel, not a plasticy XTS and ATS that they are trying to compare to the German competition.

/shrug
The day has come and Cadillac beat BMW at its own game. Thumbs up to GM.
jfox335i commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Not to hijack the Cadillac thread but I'm driving a new (2k miles) Dodge Challenger loaner car and I have to say I am very impressed with the suspension and the cockpit. The steering wheel is almost as nice as a Bimmer's. Don't like the 5sp Slushy though.

It is very quiet, no creaks or rattles either.

It is nice to see that the US is putting out something like that. I imagine the top end model with 470HP or whatever it is, would give an M3 a run for its money in the quarter mile.
Challenger scared the crap out of me when I drove it. I felt like the thing wanted to crash at 60 mph when you tried to put to work. As long as you stay in a straight line, you're ok. Deviate from that, and make sure you're wearing a seatbelt.

Also, these American Muscle cars need a lot more HP to compete with BMW's. I test drove a Camaro SS (undewhelming boat? More like Behemoth house crushing tank). 426 HP and I think my 335 can take it down in a straight line fight. (add some curves and no doubt 335 would crush it). That's 126 more HP, and about 140 more torque, but you wouldn't know it by driving it. (4000 pound curb weight has something to do with that, I know) That's not to say the SS wasn't fun to drive. it was, and the V8 sounds great, but it just doesn't compare, and I'm not even talking about the interior, where the SS is god awful fugly.

American Muscle is puny to the power of German Engineering. That's just my opinion, and that goes for the original start of this thread. ATS could be superior in ever way to the 3-series and 20K cheaper, I wouldn't buy it.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
Challenger scared the crap out of me when I drove it. I felt like the thing wanted to crash at 60 mph when you tried to put to work. As long as you stay in a straight line, you're ok. Deviate from that, and make sure you're wearing a seatbelt.

Also, these American Muscle cars need a lot more HP to compete with BMW's. I test drove a Camaro SS (undewhelming boat? More like Behemoth house crushing tank). 426 HP and I think my 335 can take it down in a straight line fight. (add some curves and no doubt 335 would crush it). That's 126 more HP, and about 140 more torque, but you wouldn't know it by driving it. (4000 pound curb weight has something to do with that, I know) That's not to say the SS wasn't fun to drive. it was, and the V8 sounds great, but it just doesn't compare, and I'm not even talking about the interior, where the SS is god awful fugly.

American Muscle is puny to the power of German Engineering. That's just my opinion, and that goes for the original start of this thread. ATS could be superior in ever way to the 3-series and 20K cheaper, I wouldn't buy it.
You must be delusional. Camaro SS would demolish a 335 stock for stock straight line and on the track. BTW I was born in Europe and owned German, Japanese and US made vehicles. German ones were by FAR least reliable.
Q. Senna commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:33 pm

Quote:
The day has come and Cadillac beat BMW at its own game. Thumbs up to GM.
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate all of the factual and real life experience you have backing this statement.

Quote:
You must be delusional. Camaro SS would demolish a 335 stock for stock straight line and on the track. BTW I was born in Europe and owned German, Japanese and US made vehicles. German ones were by FAR least reliable.
A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.8 with real world results of around 4.9 or 5.0, and a 335i does 0-60 in 4.6 with real world results of around the same. Do your research before you come here stating 'facts' or calling others delusional. And on the reliability subject I can tell you, from constant personal experience, that Japanese and German cars are far more reliable and well built than domestics.

Cheers.
Q. Senna commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:37 pm

Quote:
Not to hijack the Cadillac thread but I'm driving a new (2k miles) Dodge Challenger loaner car and I have to say I am very impressed with the suspension and the cockpit. The steering wheel is almost as nice as a Bimmer's. Don't like the 5sp Slushy though.
I completely agree! I think the Challenger cockpit is actually a pretty cool place to be. It's relatively big inside, has a soft ride and makes a great noise. I do however agree with jfox that it's not a performance machine unless you're in a straight line. But hey, that's what it's built for! Fun car.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 29, 2012, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q. Senna View Post
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate all of the factual and real life experience you have backing this statement.



A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.8 with real world results of around 4.9 or 5.0, and a 335i does 0-60 in 4.6 with real world results of around the same. Do your research before you come here stating 'facts' or calling others delusional. And on the reliability subject I can tell you, from constant personal experience, that Japanese and German cars are far more reliable and well built than domestics.

Cheers.


A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 MPH and a F30 335 does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 MPH. See those are FACTS that are backed by a test (see links below). Real world difference is significant between the two, just look at the trap speed or 0-130 mph, not even close.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-twin-bill.pdf
cordoor commented:
November 29, 2012, 3:44 pm

How about this.

Let's all pick the one specific feature of our favorite car that beats that same feature on every other comparable car (let's assume, even if for a moment, that there are actually cars comparable to our favorite car, because there aren't, but let's just pretend), then decide that the feature we picked is the only feature that matters, and declare our car the best because of that feature. Then, let's give the manufacturer of our car a thumbs up.

I think that would make for great conversation.

-Corey
Buildbright commented:
November 29, 2012, 8:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post


A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 MPH and a F30 335 does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 MPH. See those are FACTS that are backed by a test (see links below). Real world difference is significant between the two, just look at the trap speed or 0-130 mph, not even close.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-twin-bill.pdf
We can post magazine reviews all day long that say your wrong but if really want to know, take your butt to a track or stoplight. I like the Camaro but its not blowing the doors off a F30 335i stock for stock. They are dead even, now a new GT Mustang now that would blow the doors off your 6.2 litter camaro with its small by comparison 302.

Ok here you go.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...trumented-test
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/
MMME30W commented:
November 29, 2012, 8:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
How about this.

Let's all pick the one specific feature of our favorite car that beats that same feature on every other comparable car (let's assume, even if for a moment, that there are actually cars comparable to our favorite car, because there aren't, but let's just pretend), then decide that the feature we picked is the only feature that matters, and declare our car the best because of that feature. Then, let's give the manufacturer of our car a thumbs up.

I think that would make for great conversation.

-Corey
I can fit more beer cases in our Honda Fit that our old 2007 E91. Plus it's super cute.

Honda.







boltjaM3s commented:
November 29, 2012, 8:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The day has come and Cadillac beat BMW at its own game. Thumbs up to GM.
LOL.

The "game" is called "sales" and Cadillac is sucking wind on the ATS catastrophe. Beat BMW? Yeah, if BMW goes out of business they may stand a chance. Or if they run a 50% Off sale on all Cimmaron 2013 models.

BJ
jfox335i commented:
November 29, 2012, 8:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
We can post magazine reviews all day long that say your wrong but if really want to know, take your butt to a track or stoplight. I like the Camaro but its not blowing the doors off a F30 335i stock for stock. They are dead even, now a new GT Mustang now that would blow the doors off your 6.2 litter camaro with its small by comparison 302.

Ok here you go.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...trumented-test
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/
Yep, though if you drive both, the 335 "feels" faster. It may not be, but it feels that way. And if they are this close, that's doesn't say much for that 6.2L V8. Like I said, the SS was a fun car to drive, so I'm not going to dog it completely. I just marvel at how well engineered the 335 is.

On the mustang, I'd take a Laguna Seca as a weekender. Lol Brutally quick beast of a car. Ok, not all American muscle is puny. :P
Buildbright commented:
November 29, 2012, 9:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
Yep, though if you drive both, the 335 "feels" faster. It may not be, but it feels that way. And if they are this close, that's doesn't say much for that 6.2L V8. Like I said, the SS was a fun car to drive, so I'm not going to dog it completely. I just marvel at how well engineered the 335 is.

On the mustang, I'd take a Laguna Seca as a weekender. Lol Brutally quick beast of a car. Ok, not all American muscle is puny. :P
I had a blast in the new camaro it's a torque monster. I actually thought the opposite the 8speed auto is smooth the 335i powerband is so linear it doesn't feel as fast as it is. Top End is a different story the 335i just keeps pulling.
MMME30W commented:
November 29, 2012, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Nope. Two completely different cars for completely different purposes. I want to experience the full sports car.
Gotcha. Would love to drive a Cayman one of these days...
jfox335i commented:
November 29, 2012, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I had a blast in the new camaro it's a torque monster. I actually thought the opposite the 8speed auto is smooth the 335i powerband is so linear it doesn't feel as fast as it is. Top End is a different story the 335i just keeps pulling.
That's true, the speed in the 335 is deceptive, it doesn't feel you're going as fast as you really are. And it is awesome how it just keeps pulling the faster you get. You can't go fast enough for it, it just wants more. Chews up twistys like its one with the road. I didn't sense the torque as much as you in the SS. I noticed it for sure, just not what I expected. I guess I expected a little more pull considering its specs.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 29, 2012, 11:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Gotcha. Would love to drive a Cayman one of these days...
The 2009 I drove literally drove like it was on rails. It's so nimble and agile. The only problem is the monthly payments were nowhere near what I'm paying for my M3.
captainaudio commented:
November 29, 2012, 11:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 2009 I drove literally drove like it was on rails. It's so nimble and agile. The only problem is the monthly payments were nowhere near what I'm paying for my M3.
If it drove like it was on rails you weren't going fast enough.

CA
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
November 29, 2012, 11:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
If it drove like it was on rails you weren't going fast enough.

CA
I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.
captainaudio commented:
November 30, 2012, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.
Caymans are very well balanced and very neutral so your comment about feeling like it was on rails is very accurate unless you are driving the car at 10/10th. The limits on a Cayman are so high that driving at 10/10ths on the street is both irresponsible and suicidal.

It is possible to induce oversteer (hopefully MILD overteer ) in a mid engine car by trail braking. By "trailing" off the brakes as the car corners the car can be rotated. This technique is called tail brake rotation and requires practice in a controlled environment where the consequences of the inevitable spins that you will have while learning will not be catestrophic.



Trail Braking>>
The trail braking technique is an advanced braking technique that racing drivers use to go faster through corners. Instead of completing the braking sequence before the corner, you brake later and combine the last bit of braking with the turning-in part.>>
When turning into the corner while braking, the weight is still resting on the front tires. This increases front grip and decreases rear grip, so that you can induce a little more rear slip angle than front slip angle. (oversteer)>>
This braking technique has several advantages:>>
You can brake later.>>
Normally you’d already be going steady on the throttle, but since you are still on the brakes front to rear weight balance is easier to adjust.>>
Due to braking, the weight shifts forward so front grip increases, allowing you to turn harder into the corner.>>
Rather than relying on the steering you can brake your way into the corner. You rotate the back-end of the car (oversteer) so that you will have to steer less when going in, and coming out of the corner.>>
Trail braking requires very precise brake balance control and is definitely not a braking technique for the novice. Due to the high speed it’s really dangerous to practice. Mistakes will immediately be punished, usually with serious consequences.>>

CA
av98 commented:
November 30, 2012, 12:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.
Very easy, add water, over correct then you get snap oversteer.

Actually a fade brake or standard pop clutch action will loosen any rear end for any car.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
November 30, 2012, 8:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
We can post magazine reviews all day long that say your wrong but if really want to know, take your butt to a track or stoplight. I like the Camaro but its not blowing the doors off a F30 335i stock for stock. They are dead even, now a new GT Mustang now that would blow the doors off your 6.2 litter camaro with its small by comparison 302.

Ok here you go.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...trumented-test
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/


Why not use the same magazine for the two cars? Why post the fastest time for the 335 and slowest for the SS (lol the SS is still faster after 0-60 on its WORST test) ?

They are NOT dead even. You can chose to ignore facts but it won't change them. I don't like the Camaro SS at all but it is a much faster vehicle then the F30 335 whether you like it or not.

C & D

Camaro SS
0-60 4.6 sec
1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 mph
0-130 18.0 sec

BMW 335i (F30)
0-60 5.3 sec
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

BMW 335 (E90)
0-60 4.8 secs
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 106 mph
0-130 20.7 secs

Lightning lap times:

Camaro SS - 3:09.5
BMW M3 - 3:05.4
BMW 135i - 3:13.7
2007 BMW 335i Coupe (N54 which is faster than the N55 F30) - 3:10.5
Cadillac CTS-V - 3:04.0
Oh and Cobalt SS - 3:13.5

MT

2013 Camaro SS 1LE
0-60 4.3 secs
1/4 mile 12.7 @ 111 mph

2012 F30 335i
0-60 4.7 secs
1/4 mile 13.3 @ 103.9 mph

Insideline

2010 E90 BMW 335 (did not see a test for the F30)
0-60 5.2 secs
1/4 mile 13.4 @ 103.5

2010 Camaro SS
0-60 5.1 secs
1/4 mile 13.1 @ 110.4

While you can obtain a slightly different 0-60 time depending on traction, tires used, weather conditions, driver skill and so on, one thing will almost always stay very consistent which is the trap speed. It is a good indication of power and there is significant difference between the two vehicles. So you can spin it however you want in favor of the 335 but the facts are that the SS is a much quicker vehicle.
beden1 commented:
November 30, 2012, 11:47 am

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I drove up from SE FL to PA yesterday on I-95 N. I made a decent time driving straight through and going 1,126 miles in 16 hours and 45 minutes in my Tahoe. The trip is usually very boring with mostly trucks, and the elderly driving mobile homes, Toyotas, Cadillacs and small SUVs. This trip however, I saw some things on the road that were more interesting.

There must be a car show somewhere this weekend as I passed numerous exotic car carrier trucks like Reliable and etc., and many show cars in tow like hot rods, and I saw a 427 Cobra in blue with white racing stripes being towed by a matching pick up truck.

I stopped at a rest stop in S. Carolina, and while taking my dog for a walk, I saw an Acura NSX parked next to a Ferrari Testarossa. Both owners were sleeping in their front seats so I didn't have the opportunity to closely check out their cars. I have not seen an NSX on the road in years.

I saw four Audi car carriers loaded with sedans heading north from Florida. I wonder what port they enter down there to deliver as far north as S. Caolina? I love how each car has a white car cover on them with Audi logos.

I saw two BMW car carriers loaded with SUVs in S. Caolina. They only had the white shrink wrap on the top of the new vehicles. I would not want the front SUV that had 1/3rd of it's rear end hanging off over the truck cab and begging for road debris.

From Georgia through N Carolina, I saw 2 newer 7 Series BMWs with Canadian tags, A Porsche Panamera, 4 Porsche Carreras including 2 cabriolets, 2 Corvettes, 3 F30 sedans (two driven by older women and one by a college aged female), 5-6 E90 BMWs, and an E46 M3 convertible in Georgia driven by an attractive women appearing to be in her mid 40's and driving like she owned the road (I immediately fell in love!)

Then I'm in S. Carolina with my cruise set at 77 MPH in a 70 MPH speed zone and passing a truck. I look in my rear view mirror and I see a car snaking between cars and going in excess of 100 MPH. I'm about 2/3rds passed the truck and he's on my rear and flashing his high beams. I finish passing and go into the right lane and he speeds by. It was a black Cadillac CTS coupe (I don't think it was a CTS-V) driven by a guy looking to be about 30. Later, I'm entering Virginia and see flashing police lights up the road. I pass and see they had nailed the Cadillac and had the driver facing his car with his hands on the hood. I laughed my ass off.
Highmodulus commented:
November 30, 2012, 1:26 pm

Yeah if you speed like that in the Old Dominion, you're not going to have a good time.

Probably had a radar detector too.

-- on the Camaro SS point. Yeah it pulls like crazy- even with the automatic. I cannot imagine what a ZL1 would be like to drive. But- its like driving in a cave. And the trunk was a joke. And the automatic wasn't nearly as nice as the sport auto in the 335i.

Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 30, 2012, 2:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It is possible to induce oversteer (hopefully MILD overteer ) in a mid engine car by trail braking. By "trailing" off the brakes as the car corners the car can be rotated.
Oh, you can do it on a very front heavy FWD car as well. In my very distant youth, I have done it with my econocar, a couple of times unintentionally (inherently heavily understeering cars are far more forgiving in those situations ). A slight steering flick can help things get going.
Chris90 commented:
November 30, 2012, 4:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highmodulus View Post
Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that.
Camaro SS is a POS for a track enthusiast. Camaro ZL1 however is drool worthy.
Buildbright commented:
November 30, 2012, 7:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post


Why not use the same magazine for the two cars? Why post the fastest time for the 335 and slowest for the SS (lol the SS is still faster after 0-60 on its WORST test) ?

They are NOT dead even. You can chose to ignore facts but it won't change them. I don't like the Camaro SS at all but it is a much faster vehicle then the F30 335 whether you like it or not.

C & D

Camaro SS
0-60 4.6 sec
1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 mph
0-130 18.0 sec

BMW 335i (F30)
0-60 5.3 sec
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

BMW 335 (E90)
0-60 4.8 secs
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 106 mph
0-130 20.7 secs

Lightning lap times:

Camaro SS - 3:09.5
BMW M3 - 3:05.4
BMW 135i - 3:13.7
2007 BMW 335i Coupe (N54 which is faster than the N55 F30) - 3:10.5 Wrong Again
Cadillac CTS-V - 3:04.0
Oh and Cobalt SS - 3:13.5

MT

2013 Camaro SS 1LE
0-60 4.3 secs
1/4 mile 12.7 @ 111 mph

2012 F30 335i
0-60 4.7 secs
1/4 mile 13.3 @ 103.9 mph

Insideline

2010 E90 BMW 335 (did not see a test for the F30) No F30 in 2010
0-60 5.2 secs
1/4 mile 13.4 @ 103.5

2010 Camaro SS
0-60 5.1 secs
1/4 mile 13.1 @ 110.4

While you can obtain a slightly different 0-60 time depending on traction, tires used, weather conditions, driver skill and so on, one thing will almost always stay very consistent which is the trap speed. It is a good indication of power and there is significant difference between the two vehicles. So you can spin it however you want in favor of the 335 but the facts are that the SS is a much quicker vehicle.
Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.
justinnum1 commented:
November 30, 2012, 7:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.
Owned him. lol.
dtc100 commented:
November 30, 2012, 9:11 pm

As Chris90 indicated earlier, after several reviews complained about the ATS 2.0T manual being notchy, and not able to reach 60 in second gear, GM stopped delivery of all the 2.0T for fixes. Based on the initial user review after the fixes, it appears the fixes were for real.

It will be interesting to see if MT will try to do another comparo, since it was MT reported the news that GM stopped all 2.0T shipment for the fix. Sounded to me GM is very serious about this.
captainaudio commented:
November 30, 2012, 10:02 pm

We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS.

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA
g37to335i commented:
November 30, 2012, 11:12 pm

The problem with this comparo is it lacks objectivity. I have not driven the ATS yet but there is nothing special about the 3.6l engine. There are only two top of the line engines that matter in this class, the N55 and the Audi S4. Not necessarily because of the amount of power but the tq and the broad range in which it's available. In my X5, which is almost 5000lbs, the N55 can do 80mph at less than 2000 rpm and if I punch it responds in an instant, thanks to the 8 speed ZF transmission, same as the F30. Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.

What I also find odd is the placement of the c350 above the f30, something I have never seen before.

I still have a G 37, looking to get a 335i so I would be the target audience for the ATS, after all I can save a bit by getting the ATS. However I would rather wait for the next G37 than get the ATS. After having driven all offerings of the 335i and the S4, it's tough to pass these two up.
bmw_or_audi commented:
November 30, 2012, 11:22 pm

While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?
Buildbright commented:
November 30, 2012, 11:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?
I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.
g37to335i commented:
November 30, 2012, 11:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?
I don't think he was being serious in this comparo, this to me was an advert for Cadillac. There is no review I have seen that puts the C350 ahead of the 335i. S4 yes but not the C350.

If several reviews can be found that put the C350 ahead of the 3er then I will stand corrected and I will consider this review to be credible, until then this to me is an advertisement. FYI this guy,Lieberman, LUVs the CTS-V
dtc100 commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.
The ATS in the above comparo has a 6spd ZF transmission.

Speaking of 6spd vs. 8spd, I can't say yet whether 8spd is definitely superior than 6spd. I drive in manual mode most of the time, I don't know if 8spd will be too busy in manual mode. Next time when I do another comparison test drive, will try to see how manual shifting with the 8spd feels.

One thing I don't quite like the design of the new auto shifter in BMW, it is for you to look at, not to play with.
beden1 commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The ATS in the above comparo has a 6spd ZF transmission.

Speaking of 6spd vs. 8spd, I can't say yet whether 8spd is definitely superior than 6spd. I drive in manual mode most of the time, I don't know if 8spd will be too busy in manual mode. Next time when I do another comparison test drive, will try to see how manual shifting with the 8spd feels.

One thing I don't quite like the design of the new auto shifter in BMW, it is for you to look at, not to play with.
I would be interested in hearing from those who have had both of the transmissions to see which ones operate better and smoother. Without having any personal experience, I am thinking the 8 speed would shift too often and be a PITA?
beden1 commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS.

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA
I love being able to see cars like those on the road after reading about them in some magazine. I didn't see many exotics on the road in Jupiter when I was there until this week. Maybe it's too soon in the season?
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.
Without a doubt. He didn't even seem aware that the dash trim can be different from what he got.
g37to335i commented:
December 1, 2012, 7:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I would be interested in hearing from those who have had both of the transmissions to see which ones operate better and smoother. Without having any personal experience, I am thinking the 8 speed would shift too often and be a PITA?
In the X5, the transmission is smooth and is not a PITA. I highly doubt it would be any different in the F30. I would not even worry about the transmission if in the market for an F30, it does everything right. GM is going to ditch the 6 speed for a 7 speed and then the 8 speed in the coming years.

I have read so many articles that rave about how the ATS throttle blips on down shifts, we have had this in the G37 and G35 since 2007. When you read about it it's as if this is the first time it's been applied in this segment. Color me unimpressed
MMME30W commented:
December 1, 2012, 7:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.
+1. Exactly.
Chris90 commented:
December 1, 2012, 7:36 am

ATS is getting an 8 spd auto next year, supposedly.
windsor027 commented:
December 1, 2012, 8:15 am

Getting back to the original review from MT. First of all any guy that gets excited because of a red seat belt is disqualified.

Second not one thing was mentioned on the automatic transmission. The reason I say this is because I had a 2009 C350 AMG package and yes I understand they engine is a lot more powerful but the 7-speed transmission is basically the same. That transmission when compared to the 8-speed BMW is TRASH. Doesn't shift as fast, searches on down sifting when pushed hard, bogus down on when asked by the driver for immediate speed. Again this guy not mentioning one thing about the transmission tells me he is an idiot. Notice I am not saying one thing about the ATS since I have never driven the car

Also lets talk about entire space. The C350 have very little when compared to the BMW, and another thing a about this moron, if you are going to try and compare an AMG styled C350 you should be comparing it to a M-packaged 335i. And in terms of package it similarly to a Mercedes and you will see you are within a couple of thousand of it.

Now driving, for my money my 2013 335i Sport with the adaptive package is the best 4 door sedan I have ever owned. On sport setting you have just the right amount of road feel, totally controllable, super fun to drive and FAST while being comfortable at the same time. Notice this guy starts out with the 335i saying that its such a great car to drive and then comes back with its vague, something artificial etc. Sorry its either a great car to drive or it sucks dude, it can't be both. That wish washy statement along should tell you this guy should tend a 7-11 store and leave the driving critic to people that know something about cars.

Last statement I want to make here is the MT. This transmission can't be the same that I had in my 2007 328i. Its incredibly direct, light, so easy to use its almost like having a automatic. The only other MT transmission I have driven that compares to this one is the 2010 Boxster S and at the time I thought everyone should just copy their MT transmissions. Who know maybe BMW did.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 9:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.
Look at the lap times, the SS is faster than a N54 335i Coupe, M Coupe and 135i. Look at the trap speed on every test (111mph vs 103mph LOL), not even close but thanks for playing. Oh here is the link for the 335 lap time since you highlighted it to be wrong :
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i-coupe-page-6
and of course there was no F30 in 2010, I know that, I posted the E90 results since both cars are N55 and I could not find one for the F30 from that magazine.

Try again.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 9:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Owned him. lol.
Yeah...OK
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 9:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
As Chris90 indicated earlier, after several reviews complained about the ATS 2.0T manual being notchy, and not able to reach 60 in second gear, GM stopped delivery of all the 2.0T for fixes. Based on the initial user review after the fixes, it appears the fixes were for real.

It will be interesting to see if MT will try to do another comparo, since it was MT reported the news that GM stopped all 2.0T shipment for the fix. Sounded to me GM is very serious about this.
Yeap. They are working on the manual to address all the issues.
dtc100 commented:
December 1, 2012, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Last statement I want to make here is the MT. This transmission can't be the same that I had in my 2007 328i. Its incredibly direct, light, so easy to use its almost like having a automatic. The only other MT transmission I have driven that compares to this one is the 2010 Boxster S and at the time I thought everyone should just copy their MT transmissions. Who know maybe BMW did.
He was clear about a few things. First they were all automatic, second, he was only interested in two things, which according to him are the two most asked about.

How user friendly was the infotainment system, and how did the car feel driving on the back roads.

The guy did make enough bad jokes or comments that one can easily question whether he was even serious about the conclusion.

I will definitely not rely on this comparo, rather consider it one sample point. There should be plenty of reviews to come. But I do agree with his conclusion on the road feel.
justinnum1 commented:
December 1, 2012, 10:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Yeah...OK
Take it like a man and move on.
dtc100 commented:
December 1, 2012, 11:49 am

Here is another one, again very much agree with:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/au...anted=all&_r=0
Buildbright commented:
December 1, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Look at the lap times, the SS is faster than a N54 335i Coupe, M Coupe and 135i. Look at the trap speed on every test (111mph vs 103mph LOL), not even close but thanks for playing. Oh here is the link for the 335 lap time since you highlighted it to be wrong :
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i-coupe-page-6
and of course there was no F30 in 2010, I know that, I posted the E90 results since both cars are N55 and I could not find one for the F30 from that magazine.

Try again.
You can post rolling smiley faces all day long. It's not going to change you are wrong. Do you even know what a trap speed is? Have you ever seen anyone race for the best trap speed? No because you are racing for acceleration times. The higher trap speed just proves the Camaro has so much power it should be faster but it does not have the efficiency to put the power to good use.

Why do you post on this fourm? You don't have an F30 nor do you like them from your previous posts. Which is fine but don't sit around and troll the forums because a magazine told you one car is as fast and you have to make excuses to feel better about yourself.

I will not post a reply after this so! post all the smiley faces and mag articles you like I am going to go drive my F30.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
You can post rolling smiley faces all day long. It's not going to change you are wrong. Do you even know what a trap speed is? Have you ever seen anyone race for the best trap speed? No because you are racing for acceleration times. The higher trap speed just proves the Camaro has so much power it should be faster but it does not have the efficiency to put the power to good use.

Why do you post on this fourm? You don't have an F30 nor do you like them from your previous posts. Which is fine but don't sit around and troll the forums because a magazine told you one car is as fast and you have to make excuses to feel better about yourself.

I will not post a reply after this so! post all the smiley faces and mag articles you like I am going to go drive my F30.
You clearly have very limited knowledge when it comes this issue. Trap speed is a very good indicator of power the vehicle makes. Of course the SS will have more issues getting it to the ground, it makes a lot more power than the 335 but once it gains traction it is over for the 335. It is very simple and numbers don't like just look at the 0-130 times and so on, the two cars are not even in the same league power wise. Like I said I don't like the SS at all and would take the 335 over it any day, but it is not as fast the as Camaro SS. The SS is silly fast and relatively cheap track toy.
Also on the topic on forums, I can post where I want. If you don't like it don't read it, that is all. I am a loyal BMW fan and have been for years, however I am also a car fan and if there is a brand that offers a better performing vehicle for less, like the ATS, I will give it a shot.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Take it like a man and move on.
Sometimes you should take your own advice. Specifically when it comes to the ATS winning this particular comparison.
justinnum1 commented:
December 1, 2012, 2:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
You can post rolling smiley faces all day long. It's not going to change you are wrong. Do you even know what a trap speed is? Have you ever seen anyone race for the best trap speed? No because you are racing for acceleration times. The higher trap speed just proves the Camaro has so much power it should be faster but it does not have the efficiency to put the power to good use.

Why do you post on this fourm? You don't have an F30 nor do you like them from your previous posts. Which is fine but don't sit around and troll the forums because a magazine told you one car is as fast and you have to make excuses to feel better about yourself.

I will not post a reply after this so! post all the smiley faces and mag articles you like I am going to go drive my F30.
He can't accpet he is wrong. But we can all laugh at him
Elk commented:
December 1, 2012, 3:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
The higher trap speed just proves the Camaro has so much power it should be faster but it does not have the efficiency to put the power to good use.
True, if by "efficiency" you include the skill of the driver, condition of the track (even which lane), the rubber on the car, etc. There are many relevant variables, many of which have nothing to do with a vehicle's engine or its fundamental design.

The roughly equal times, but significantly higher trap speed of the Camaro, indicate the Camaro is capable of faster times and is unarguably making better power.

A 100 MPH rolling start would be amusing.

The f-body is a great car, but a significantly different machine than an F30.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 1, 2012, 3:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
True, if by "efficiency" you include the skill of the driver, condition of the track (even which lane), the rubber on the car, etc. There are many relevant variables, many of which have nothing to do with a vehicle's engine or its fundamental design.

The roughly equal times, but significantly higher trap speed of the Camaro, indicate the Camaro is capable of faster times and is unarguably making better power.

A 100 MPH rolling start would be amusing.

The f-body is a great car, but a significantly different machine than an F30.
Thank you!
Spagolli94 commented:
December 1, 2012, 3:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I thought the suspension on my 335i was great while I had the car in South Florida. After I had it shipped to NYC I hated the harsh ride so much I was ready to either set fire to it or push it into the East River. The way the car is set up now (Conti DWS, Koni FSDs) I am happy with the suspension. I would have to drive an F30 in NYC before I could really make a comparison. I'm in a Mercedes Rental for 2 months. We may go car shopping this week but I doubt we will purchase another Florida car.
I test drove an F30 with sport pkg back to back with the E90 335 I recently purchased. Drove on some harsh Philly roads. Ride was pretty similar, I thought. The F30 didn't have the adaptive suspension. I believe most of the noise going over bumps was coming from the RFTs.

I just put winter tires on my E90. They are technically still RFT, but much better than the stock Bridgestone RFTs that came on the car. The ride is already 50% better. In the spring, I'll probably opt for the soft Conti DWS. If I still need to soften it a bit, I'll try the Koni FSD route that I used on my old 2006 330.

IF I was to purchase the F30, I'm 99% sure I'd opt for the DHP with adjustable suspension. That, combined with some softer tires should result in a ride that's firm enough to have fun on good roads, but compliant on bad roads.
Spagolli94 commented:
December 1, 2012, 3:47 pm

Just finished watching the video. How do they only test a car on one type of road to declare it the winner? That road looked like a dream to drive on and the tester said the Caddy was a bit harsh. Well, if that was harsh, I'd invite the tester to join CA in NYC for a little drive and then report back. These mags so often test cars on cool roads and tracks, which offers little in the way of real world buying advice for those of us who live in cities.
dtc100 commented:
December 4, 2012, 2:32 pm

Here is the review article, as I speculated, they had more than one did this review, three of them agreed on the final verdict, even though each had different take.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
g37to335i commented:
December 4, 2012, 2:53 pm

The ATS did not make it to C&Ds 10 best. The G35 and CTS made it in their first year.

About the review, MT says the 3ers figure eight times showed its handling was inferior to the other 2. I checked and the G37s did the figure 8 in 25.9s. The S4 at 25.6s. The S4 is AWD. If anything, the 3er is as good as it gets iro handling in this segment. You are not going to find many reviewers concurring with MT on their rankings
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
December 4, 2012, 3:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Caymans are very well balanced and very neutral so your comment about feeling like it was on rails is very accurate unless you are driving the car at 10/10th. The limits on a Cayman are so high that driving at 10/10ths on the street is both irresponsible and suicidal.

It is possible to induce oversteer (hopefully MILD overteer ) in a mid engine car by trail braking. By "trailing" off the brakes as the car corners the car can be rotated. This technique is called tail brake rotation and requires practice in a controlled environment where the consequences of the inevitable spins that you will have while learning will not be catestrophic.



Trail Braking>>
The trail braking technique is an advanced braking technique that racing drivers use to go faster through corners. Instead of completing the braking sequence before the corner, you brake later and combine the last bit of braking with the turning-in part.>>
When turning into the corner while braking, the weight is still resting on the front tires. This increases front grip and decreases rear grip, so that you can induce a little more rear slip angle than front slip angle. (oversteer)>>
This braking technique has several advantages:>>
You can brake later.>>
Normally you’d already be going steady on the throttle, but since you are still on the brakes front to rear weight balance is easier to adjust.>>
Due to braking, the weight shifts forward so front grip increases, allowing you to turn harder into the corner.>>
Rather than relying on the steering you can brake your way into the corner. You rotate the back-end of the car (oversteer) so that you will have to steer less when going in, and coming out of the corner.>>
Trail braking requires very precise brake balance control and is definitely not a braking technique for the novice. Due to the high speed it’s really dangerous to practice. Mistakes will immediately be punished, usually with serious consequences.>>

CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Very easy, add water, over correct then you get snap oversteer.

Actually a fade brake or standard pop clutch action will loosen any rear end for any car.
I REALLY need to head to a track. REALLY BADLY.
dtc100 commented:
December 4, 2012, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
The ATS did not make it to C&Ds 10 best. The G35 and CTS made it in their first year.

About the review, MT says the 3ers figure eight times showed its handling was inferior to the other 2. I checked and the G37s did the figure 8 in 25.9s. The S4 at 25.6s. The S4 is AWD. If anything, the 3er is as good as it gets iro handling in this segment. You are not going to find many reviewers concurring with MT on their rankings
I did a quick scan of the article, the complaint from the reviewers seemed to be, while the 335i sport added weight, BMW did not tune the suspension specifically for the added weight. They implied the suspension in the 328i was well tuned for its weight, and BMW just put the same suspension in the heavier 335i and called it a day.

The other part is the chassis in the ATS, it was more European than the European models.
justinnum1 commented:
December 4, 2012, 4:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I did a quick scan of the article, the complaint from the reviewers seemed to be, while the 335i sport added weight, BMW did not tune the suspension specifically for the added weight. They implied the suspension in the 328i was well tuned for its weight, and BMW just put the same suspension in the heavier 335i and called it a day.

The other part is the chassis in the ATS, it was more European than the European models.
the F30 328 is so much better than the E90 328 its not even funny or close.
g37to335i commented:
December 4, 2012, 5:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I did a quick scan of the article, the complaint from the reviewers seemed to be, while the 335i sport added weight, BMW did not tune the suspension specifically for the added weight. They implied the suspension in the 328i was well tuned for its weight, and BMW just put the same suspension in the heavier 335i and called it a day.

The other part is the chassis in the ATS, it was more European than the European models.
Agreed but the 335i only adds 150 pounds. It's not an extreme weight gain. It's still a light weight in its class at 3500 pounds. I think MT was starting to split hairs to eke a win for the ATS. The BMW wins on

0-60
1/4
Figure 8 (their handling test)
NVH
Transmission
Tech (per mt)

The ATS
Interior (highly subjective, if not questionable)
Handling because it feels like a Nissan 370z, aka G37, which I have.

I don't know but the more I look at this comparo the more stuff I find that don't add up.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
December 4, 2012, 6:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
the F30 328 is so much better than the E90 328 its not even funny or close.
Yeap, not even close

What Needs Work:
Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional.

Bottom Line:
The base 3 Series has never been quicker or more comfortable. It doesn't feel as much like a sport sedan as the old 328i, but unless you're truly hard-core, you probably won't care.

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...and-video.html

Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-3
dtc100 commented:
December 4, 2012, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Agreed but the 335i only adds 150 pounds. It's not an extreme weight gain. It's still a light weight in its class at 3500 pounds. I think MT was starting to split hairs to eke a win for the ATS. The BMW wins on

0-60
1/4
Figure 8 (their handling test)
NVH
Transmission
Tech (per mt)

The ATS
Interior (highly subjective, if not questionable)
Handling because it feels like a Nissan 370z, aka G37, which I have.

I don't know but the more I look at this comparo the more stuff I find that don't add up.
The 370z would be very different than the G37. The 370z reference was to point out that the ATS felt more like a sport car (such as the 370z), while the others felt like what they were supposed to be, sport sedans.

Basically the ATS chassis and the road feel on the twisties were very important for those guys, so much that they were willing to overlook all other elements of the cars.
g37to335i commented:
December 4, 2012, 8:42 pm

That's all I had. You are right about the Z being a sports car but the G has always been understood to be very close to its cousin in driving dynamics. However I doubt this is going to change a lot of minds of young guys shopping for the top end models. Like you said let's wait until the dust settles to pass judgement. It will be a long wait
Chris90 commented:
December 4, 2012, 8:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
That's all I had. You are right about the Z being a sports car but the G has always been understood to be very close to its cousin in driving dynamics. However I doubt this is going to change a lot of minds of young guys shopping for the top end models. Like you said let's wait until the dust settles to pass judgement. It will be a long wait
If the Z is a sports car, then the 1 series is a sports car, cause that's all the Z is, it's a G sedan with a shortened wheelbase and coupe body. I don't think you can make a sports car out of a family sedan platform. Nissan hasn't made a sports car in years.
dtc100 commented:
December 4, 2012, 9:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
That's all I had. You are right about the Z being a sports car but the G has always been understood to be very close to its cousin in driving dynamics. However I doubt this is going to change a lot of minds of young guys shopping for the top end models. Like you said let's wait until the dust settles to pass judgement. It will be a long wait
I don't think it will be a long wait, in the next few months the ATS sales numbers will be clear what the potential, or lack of it.

If the 370z is not a true sport car, then maybe this is why they compared ATS to it. No one would argue ATS is actually a sport car, but if it drives like a car that meant to be like a sport car, that would be good enough, and that is the most a sport sedan can achieve anyway.