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So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?

42K views 368 replies 81 participants last post by  Rover 
#1 ·
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).
 
#2 · (Edited)
There are pros and cons to every make.

Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.

Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.

German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes :rolleyes:
 
#289 · (Edited)
Domestic dealer networks are not great, and in California, they are nothing short of horrid and despicable. It's like all the overpriced and shaddy dealers somehow congregated to California. That said, all the dealerships (even BMW) I've visited in CA suck.

SRT is a great brand. They were fed some crappy products in the 2000's and somehow turned them into some of the best bangs for the buck. Looking forward, I think they will out do BMW dollar for dollar with their all new products. For example, the new Viper is on par or better than what Ferrari has to offer (they took Ferrari tech and seats and leather and kept the Viper rawness), at 1/3 the price. The new SRT M3/4 fighter in 2015 will do just that, at 25% less price. It will be interesting!

BTW, about the warranty, I agree with most here. BMWs can be tricky out of warranty. But Japanese cars are not cheap out of warranty either. Domestics can be profoundly cheap out of warranty. That said, you live once. Buy the car that inspires you. Don't buy another boring Accord or Camry unless you are a boring person. If you need a warranty, there are a ton of aftermarket warranties available.
 
#3 ·
i don tthink BMW in particular is that bad , i know several people with BMWs well out of warranty that are running fine. the main thing is parts and filters and such cost a little more than say an acura.

I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it, and it has been super reliable. Had a roomate with a 1990 525i with 190k miles and it ran fine too nothing ever crazy happened to them that wouldn't happen to any other car that age.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Buy old car, maybe have to fork out a bit for repairs, possibly if you buy bad get ripped off you'll need to fork out a lot

Buy new car you might buy a lemon, very slight chance though, but you certainly will do a massive chunk of your money in depreciation and maybe more with finance.

I have paid an extra 50% of the purchase price in 6 weeks for my 19 yr old 540i, in transfer fees/stamp duty, insurance, and various repairs (fuel pump, p/s flush due to incorrect fluid, engine and tranny mounts which some douche mechanic ought to lose accreditation over (should not have passed roadworthy cert for sale), and theres a bit of shimmy which will need some steering bits in 6mo or so... but I budgeted for more so am not worried yet. I think people get excited thinking they bought a $1k or $5k BMW and then get a nasty surprise about what follows that theyre not prepared for.
 
#5 ·
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).
I don't think so. You should ask this question in the E46 forum.
 
#6 ·
As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.
 
#7 ·
"So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?"

Like everything, "It all depends". If you want a 2002, the only way to drive one is to buy one that's out of warranty. :D

The BMW mechanical stuff doesn't bother me (well, not too much). But the electronics took a step forward (or backward) in complexity and serviceability from the E46 to the E9x.

My E91 has had multiple electronic poltergeists and required several software updates and reprogramming. That's difficult to do without visiting the dealer.

(Since the F31 will not be available in the US with a manual transmission, I won't buy one -- and I have mixed feelings about that. The E91 is a lot of fun to drive. The maintenance issues have been an annoyance, however. I may go Japanese for my next DD, just so long as I can get my manual transmission fix.)
 
#8 ·
BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view
 
#35 ·
I think people who make a big deal about it just do because they can't have it.

I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.

Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
 
#9 · (Edited)
In SE PA where I live, I see older BMWs driving on the roads everywhere I look, so many people apparently do keep their cars out of warranty.
 
#11 ·
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).
Not going to be condescending as its Christmas and my daughter's Elf On The Shelf is watching.

Answer these three questions:

1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?

2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?

3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?

BJ
 
#58 ·
1) Comfortably? $600. Psychologically? Idk, I've not had a car payment in close to a decade.

2) Nope

3) I'm going to go with yes. In my next car fun factor and manual tranny are important. My accord is a bit boring even though it's a V6. Brand name isn't a big deal to me. The other car I'm looking at is a BRZ and I'm patiently awaiting the WRX redesign.
 
#12 ·
I think it's more important to say:

Are you so lazy and uninformed that you must take your out of warranty BMW to a BMW dealership? If so, then don't own a BMW out of warranty.

If you enjoy some basic DIY and have a good indy BMW specialist, then it's no big deal.

From a financial viewpoint: I spend less per year to maintain a 11 year old M5 (one of the most expensive BMWs to own) than most people in the f30 forum spend each year paying for depreciation.

So alot of people who want their newer car warranty to avoid a sudden financial stress are actually paying more in their cars lost value each year than they would if they simply accepted an out of warranty car.

Joe

P.s. I've owned my m5 for 12k miles and it's rolling over 115k miles. I've spent ~$1800 so far, including about $1200 as soon as I bought it to replace the worn parts identified in my pre purchase inspection. Since then, it's been quite a fine ride.
 
#13 ·
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
 
#14 ·
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
Please explain why.
 
#15 ·
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
 
#17 ·
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
You are right. You said it better than I did.
 
#16 ·
I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
 
#19 ·
Gonna chime in on the recent comments about Mike Miller's schedule. I used to be a huge proponent of that schedule and felt that BMW was sacrificing long-term owners (or owners of older BMWs) by switching to their "maintenance free!" schedule. And I'm a big oil analysis guy who watches closely the results.

While I don't believe the infrequent lubricant changes are good for the car, the fact is that we have plenty of high performance, high mileage, hard used BMWs now going on 10 years after the longer maintenance intervals were introduced. We are not observing a huge spike in failed engines, failed transmissions, or failed differentials. Cooling systems in the more recent BMWs are performing at the same rates as ones in the 90s and early 2000s were (which was not great, even with more frequent maintenance).

I have seen more BMWs with dirty engines, no doubt. But, for whatever it's worth, BMW seemed to hit the mark on less frequent maintenance - it didn't destroy their cars reliability.

I would not hesitate to own an Naturally aspirated BMW made in the last 10 years provided it passed a thorough pre-purchase inspection and showed signs of being well cared for (i.e. even treadwear, non-excessive suspension wear, smooth running engine and trans)
 
#20 ·
I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.
 
#22 ·
Porsche consistently gets very high marks for reliability, and similar threads like this in the Porsche Forum show minimal out-of-pocket expenses for used Porsche owners mostly for normal maintenance.
 
#21 ·
Interesting as to how polarized the perspectives are with DIY types seemingly confident out of warranty. Makes me want to get a fun BMW out of warranty I appreciated in the past.

As to the more complicated electronics, at first I figured it wouldn't be that different than keeping my home theatre running. But I guess we don't really know that yet.
 
#30 ·
I think I'll agree with the apparent consensus here that it depends. It depends a lot even on the specific car you buy, and how you buy.

Basically, if you were to buy new and keep the car then I think the odds are better that you can continue to drive the car well out of warranty. I'd definitely want to exceed the BMW recommended maintenance schedule by doing my own "in-between" oil changes (which I have done on my 135i). But even then there's a couple of caveats.

Let me use my 135i as my example; would I own this car out of warranty? At the moment I am thinking no. My car has an incredibly complex electronic system (the entire car does, not just the iDrive stuff) coupled to a relatively high-strung turbocharged engine that to-date does not really have enough "real-world" stats to say that it won't suffer some critical turbo failure at some point. It's also still a bit early to say that it will never have a problem like the N54's HPFP problem... while the stats to-date are good, it took a good couple of years for the HPFP problem to show some significant noise.

The engine is also coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. Now, I think it's a thing of beauty from a technical perspective. I think it's an incredible piece of technology that I love... but the longevity and repair costs are something I don't think there are any really good numbers on. The DCT has only been used in a few relatively low-volume model BMW's and as such there really isn't enough data to make a determination on long-term life. Now, I happen to think clutch life in this might well be better than a torque converter in an automatic simply because there's two of them and it's a consistent level of wear and tear from the system itself... but even then I wonder how much all that is going to cost to replace when the clutches need replaced.

I have similar issues with the AWD X-Drive system (though not on my car, obviously)... it's very complex and again used on a relatively small portion of BMW's sold... so I am dubious about the longevity of the system. It's complicated compared to say Audi's Quattro and Subaru's AWD because from an engineering perspective it really is a retrofit onto a RWD car. I'd be wary of that too.

Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.

The modern x28i? Well, except the 1'er which still comes with that marvelous I6 I would probably pass; the engine is new and at least as complex as the N55 if not moreso. I'd be VERY wary of owning that beyond the warranty because there simply aren't the miles on that engine to prove it's longevity.

Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic. There are fewer and fewer things you can do to repair a modern automobile yourself, and it's becoming harder and less cost-effective even for independent shops to make a go of it without investing 10's of thousands of dollars in computer equipment for each manufacturer. Even then they don't always get it right. The last car BMW made that was really "shadetree-friendly" was the E46. Even the E60 was not a good car to try to work on yourself, and as of the advent of the E90 and newer it's almost impossible to do a lot of the work yourself effectively.

Hope that all helps :)
 
#96 ·
(snip)
Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.
(snip)
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.

-James
San Francisco, CA
 
#102 ·
My dad has a 2000 E46 323i Wagon and it's been pretty good except for the transmission had an issue where it wouldn't go into reverse or some such thing. That's another reason why I'll always get a manual on the cars I buy.
 
#36 ·
If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
 
#39 · (Edited)
I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.

And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.

That's 2-3 months of a lease payment. :dunno:
 
#40 ·
On Porsche: They are incredibly reliable cars and very surprisingly DIY friendly. I gave my boxster a 60k mile major service for like $230 with OEM or equivalent parts from Pelican Parts. I replaced an engine mount for like $130 using simple hand tools. Coil packs were cheap and easily replaced, etc....

They are surprisingly easy to own cars (financially and mechanically) if you aren't stupid - at least any model between 1978-2005 AFAIK.

...

Lease vs. buy vs. buy pre-owned vs. buy older rages on forever. I like 10+ year old sports cars (m5, 911, others) because you can swap them around with very little out of pocket expense and get some really phenomenal cars. Heck, if I had bought a 1995-1998 911 a few years ago I'd probably be ahead right now considering they have appreciated.

If your decision is really coming down to $1000-$1500 difference a year, you probably should be staying away from BMW/Porsche/Other Expensive marques altogether.

I look at my m5 as one of my favorite toys who may someday ask me to take $3k out of my bank account, set it on fire, and go on with life as if nothing changed.
 
#41 ·
The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
 
#43 ·
The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
 
#45 ·
I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
 
#48 ·
I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]

Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
 
#60 ·
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).
Yeah. I keep telling myself thst instead of spending 1.5 K per year on my 1999 528 I should spend 65 K on a new one. Then I say to myself: "Nah."
 
#63 ·
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)

I must say, though, that the E90 was a fabulous car that I loved owning. And BMW took care of some items that broke right after the warranty ended as goodwill. That reduced my costs. Believe it or not, to get the turn signal clicking back (it had failed), BMW replaced the entire instrument panel at a retail cost of $700 for the part alone. That's a good example of the technology we all love in BMWs and why they are so expensive to fix. In a Honda, the clicking noise is a side-effect of a $5 solenoid.

Still, when you are seven or eight years out and looking at normal wear and tear repairs and maintenance that can cost 10% of the value of the car, you wish you owned a Japanese car which due to volume has both inexpensive parts and many independent shops that can competently repair it.

So, while I am planning on keeping my 2009 Civic another five or six years (it's my winter car -- I don't drive the F30 in the snow or, truth be told, when it rains) I won't be keeping the BMW past the warranty.
 
#65 ·
So, while I am planning on keeping my 2009 Civic another five or six years (it's my winter car -- I don't drive the F30 in the snow or, truth be told, when it rains) I won't be keeping the BMW past the warranty.
I did plan to sell my previous bimmer after 3 years, but I ended up keeping it for 12 years and 100k until the rust warranty ran out, I guess it depends on which warranty one refers to. :) Maybe I got lucky, the beater looked and ran great all those years, and my average annual expense beyond warranty had been around 500-1000. A great independent BMW mechanic did help, but I would agree with other posters that individual driving styles and such can make huge differences to out-of-warranty expenses.
 
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