So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?

by Bimmerfest.com Member - BentZero on December 9, 2012, 11:59 pm
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).


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368 responses to So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?

ChrisF01 commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:56 am

There are pros and cons to every make.

Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.

Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.

German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes
hans007 commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:09 am

i don tthink BMW in particular is that bad , i know several people with BMWs well out of warranty that are running fine. the main thing is parts and filters and such cost a little more than say an acura.

I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it, and it has been super reliable. Had a roomate with a 1990 525i with 190k miles and it ran fine too nothing ever crazy happened to them that wouldn't happen to any other car that age.
bennyg1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:56 am

Buy old car, maybe have to fork out a bit for repairs, possibly if you buy bad get ripped off you'll need to fork out a lot

Buy new car you might buy a lemon, very slight chance though, but you certainly will do a massive chunk of your money in depreciation and maybe more with finance.

I have paid an extra 50% of the purchase price in 6 weeks for my 19 yr old 540i, in transfer fees/stamp duty, insurance, and various repairs (fuel pump, p/s flush due to incorrect fluid, engine and tranny mounts which some douche mechanic ought to lose accreditation over (should not have passed roadworthy cert for sale), and theres a bit of shimmy which will need some steering bits in 6mo or so... but I budgeted for more so am not worried yet. I think people get excited thinking they bought a $1k or $5k BMW and then get a nasty surprise about what follows that theyre not prepared for.
tturedraider commented:
December 10, 2012, 2:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
I don't think so. You should ask this question in the E46 forum.
av98 commented:
December 10, 2012, 7:46 am

As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.
Bob Shiftright commented:
December 10, 2012, 8:20 am

Like everything, "It all depends". If you want a 2002, the only way to drive one is to buy one that's out of warranty.

The BMW mechanical stuff doesn't bother me (well, not too much). But the electronics took a step forward (or backward) in complexity and serviceability from the E46 to the E9x.

My E91 has had multiple electronic poltergeists and required several software updates and reprogramming. That's difficult to do without visiting the dealer.

(Since the F31 will not be available in the US with a manual transmission, I won't buy one -- and I have mixed feelings about that. The E91 is a lot of fun to drive. The maintenance issues have been an annoyance, however. I may go Japanese for my next DD, just so long as I can get my manual transmission fix.)
SilverX3 commented:
December 10, 2012, 8:57 am

BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 9:23 am

In SE PA where I live, I see older BMWs driving on the roads everywhere I look, so many people apparently do keep their cars out of warranty.
krash commented:
December 10, 2012, 9:30 am

Ever own a Chevy or a Volvo out of warranty?

Tears. Lots of tears.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 10, 2012, 9:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
Not going to be condescending as its Christmas and my daughter's Elf On The Shelf is watching.

Answer these three questions:

1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?

2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?

3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?

BJ
JoeFromPA commented:
December 10, 2012, 9:43 am

I think it's more important to say:

Are you so lazy and uninformed that you must take your out of warranty BMW to a BMW dealership? If so, then don't own a BMW out of warranty.

If you enjoy some basic DIY and have a good indy BMW specialist, then it's no big deal.

From a financial viewpoint: I spend less per year to maintain a 11 year old M5 (one of the most expensive BMWs to own) than most people in the f30 forum spend each year paying for depreciation.

So alot of people who want their newer car warranty to avoid a sudden financial stress are actually paying more in their cars lost value each year than they would if they simply accepted an out of warranty car.

Joe

P.s. I've owned my m5 for 12k miles and it's rolling over 115k miles. I've spent ~$1800 so far, including about $1200 as soon as I bought it to replace the worn parts identified in my pre purchase inspection. Since then, it's been quite a fine ride.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:00 am

I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
Please explain why.
Daedalus34r commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:21 am

European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:25 am

I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
You are right. You said it better than I did.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.
I agree with your numbers. 2-3k a year including maintainance costs is cheap considering that these are BMW's. That is about 250-300 bucks a month and you cannot lease any modern BMW for an amount close to that number.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:38 am

Gonna chime in on the recent comments about Mike Miller's schedule. I used to be a huge proponent of that schedule and felt that BMW was sacrificing long-term owners (or owners of older BMWs) by switching to their "maintenance free!" schedule. And I'm a big oil analysis guy who watches closely the results.

While I don't believe the infrequent lubricant changes are good for the car, the fact is that we have plenty of high performance, high mileage, hard used BMWs now going on 10 years after the longer maintenance intervals were introduced. We are not observing a huge spike in failed engines, failed transmissions, or failed differentials. Cooling systems in the more recent BMWs are performing at the same rates as ones in the 90s and early 2000s were (which was not great, even with more frequent maintenance).

I have seen more BMWs with dirty engines, no doubt. But, for whatever it's worth, BMW seemed to hit the mark on less frequent maintenance - it didn't destroy their cars reliability.

I would not hesitate to own an Naturally aspirated BMW made in the last 10 years provided it passed a thorough pre-purchase inspection and showed signs of being well cared for (i.e. even treadwear, non-excessive suspension wear, smooth running engine and trans)
jfox335i commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:51 am

I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:57 am

Interesting as to how polarized the perspectives are with DIY types seemingly confident out of warranty. Makes me want to get a fun BMW out of warranty I appreciated in the past.

As to the more complicated electronics, at first I figured it wouldn't be that different than keeping my home theatre running. But I guess we don't really know that yet.
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.
Porsche consistently gets very high marks for reliability, and similar threads like this in the Porsche Forum show minimal out-of-pocket expenses for used Porsche owners mostly for normal maintenance.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Porsche consistently gets very high marks for reliability, and similar threads like this in the Porsche Forum show minimal out-of-pocket expenses for used Porsche owners mostly for normal maintenance.
Any particular recommendations as to models?
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Any particular recommendations as to models?
www.rennlist.com

Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.

The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.

Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Please explain why.
They have become very complicated in regards to electronics, require more and more dealer specific specialty software/computers and tools to fix, lots of plastic in things like the cooling system(even my '98 is guilty of this).

I like to fix my own cars once out of warranty, and the modern BMW's make that increasingly difficult.

I feel this way about pretty much all cars today.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
www.rennlist.com

Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.

The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.

Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.
Thanks for the info. And I'll check out the forum. I had figured old Porsche's OOW bled money, based purely on assumption. That not being true would present some interesting possibilities.
BertStevens commented:
December 10, 2012, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
Please expand on this!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
vern commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I agree with your numbers. 2-3k a year including maintainance costs is cheap considering that these are BMW's. That is about 250-300 bucks a month and you cannot lease any modern BMW for an amount close to that number.
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
Bob Shiftright commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I had figured old Porsche's OOW bled money, based purely on assumption. That not being true would present some interesting possibilities.
It still "depends".

Some Porsche models require more attention than others. Some owners enjoy wrenching and others might but don't have the time. Also, note Porsche 911 owner demographics. The invoice for a dealer oil change or minor service from a Porsche dealer might make a Hyundai owner faint.
thumper_330 commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:14 pm

I think I'll agree with the apparent consensus here that it depends. It depends a lot even on the specific car you buy, and how you buy.

Basically, if you were to buy new and keep the car then I think the odds are better that you can continue to drive the car well out of warranty. I'd definitely want to exceed the BMW recommended maintenance schedule by doing my own "in-between" oil changes (which I have done on my 135i). But even then there's a couple of caveats.

Let me use my 135i as my example; would I own this car out of warranty? At the moment I am thinking no. My car has an incredibly complex electronic system (the entire car does, not just the iDrive stuff) coupled to a relatively high-strung turbocharged engine that to-date does not really have enough "real-world" stats to say that it won't suffer some critical turbo failure at some point. It's also still a bit early to say that it will never have a problem like the N54's HPFP problem... while the stats to-date are good, it took a good couple of years for the HPFP problem to show some significant noise.

The engine is also coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. Now, I think it's a thing of beauty from a technical perspective. I think it's an incredible piece of technology that I love... but the longevity and repair costs are something I don't think there are any really good numbers on. The DCT has only been used in a few relatively low-volume model BMW's and as such there really isn't enough data to make a determination on long-term life. Now, I happen to think clutch life in this might well be better than a torque converter in an automatic simply because there's two of them and it's a consistent level of wear and tear from the system itself... but even then I wonder how much all that is going to cost to replace when the clutches need replaced.

I have similar issues with the AWD X-Drive system (though not on my car, obviously)... it's very complex and again used on a relatively small portion of BMW's sold... so I am dubious about the longevity of the system. It's complicated compared to say Audi's Quattro and Subaru's AWD because from an engineering perspective it really is a retrofit onto a RWD car. I'd be wary of that too.

Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.

The modern x28i? Well, except the 1'er which still comes with that marvelous I6 I would probably pass; the engine is new and at least as complex as the N55 if not moreso. I'd be VERY wary of owning that beyond the warranty because there simply aren't the miles on that engine to prove it's longevity.

Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic. There are fewer and fewer things you can do to repair a modern automobile yourself, and it's becoming harder and less cost-effective even for independent shops to make a go of it without investing 10's of thousands of dollars in computer equipment for each manufacturer. Even then they don't always get it right. The last car BMW made that was really "shadetree-friendly" was the E46. Even the E60 was not a good car to try to work on yourself, and as of the advent of the E90 and newer it's almost impossible to do a lot of the work yourself effectively.

Hope that all helps
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
Back of the envelope accepting OOW maintenance estimates on this thread there doesn't really seem to be that great of a PV difference. But the seeming reliability would permit garaging a back up for fun without tying up much money.
namelessman commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic.
That's a valid concern, hence the PZEV warranty is critical IMO on modern BMW's for long term ownership. Effectively any CEL should be covered by BMW.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 12:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
That's a valid concern, hence the PZEV warranty is critical IMO on modern BMW's for long term ownership. Effectively any CEL should be covered by BMW.
Concerns over things like transmissions, electronics and turbos might be valid, but BMWs's business model depends on depreciation and costs of used ownership not becoming materially worse. Their fate is somewhat tied to the owner in that regard.
av98 commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
+1, great advice. Most use Mike M's maintenance chart or the old 90's pre-free maintenance repair chart.
hans007 commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view
I think people who make a big deal about it just do because they can't have it.

I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.

Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
samualcc commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:47 pm

If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
jfox335i commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view

BMW = Bring More Women
av98 commented:
December 10, 2012, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Back of the envelope accepting OOW maintenance estimates on this thread there doesn't really seem to be that great of a PV difference. But the seeming reliability would permit garaging a back up for fun without tying up much money.
That's what I've always done. Keep a relatively cheap to maintain bullet proof car like an old MR2 or Miata. If any cars need repair you are still good with the 2nd car.
Chris90 commented:
December 10, 2012, 2:09 pm

I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.

And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.

That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 10, 2012, 3:05 pm

On Porsche: They are incredibly reliable cars and very surprisingly DIY friendly. I gave my boxster a 60k mile major service for like $230 with OEM or equivalent parts from Pelican Parts. I replaced an engine mount for like $130 using simple hand tools. Coil packs were cheap and easily replaced, etc....

They are surprisingly easy to own cars (financially and mechanically) if you aren't stupid - at least any model between 1978-2005 AFAIK.

...

Lease vs. buy vs. buy pre-owned vs. buy older rages on forever. I like 10+ year old sports cars (m5, 911, others) because you can swap them around with very little out of pocket expense and get some really phenomenal cars. Heck, if I had bought a 1995-1998 911 a few years ago I'd probably be ahead right now considering they have appreciated.

If your decision is really coming down to $1000-$1500 difference a year, you probably should be staying away from BMW/Porsche/Other Expensive marques altogether.

I look at my m5 as one of my favorite toys who may someday ask me to take $3k out of my bank account, set it on fire, and go on with life as if nothing changed.
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 3:51 pm

The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertStevens View Post
Please expand on this!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
Long story short is I double Mike Miller's recommendations for everything except oil changes. I do tranny, differential and power steering every 60k miles. I do brake fluid and coolant every 2 years. Oil every 8-9k miles. I drive 30k miles of highway a year so my modified schedule takes into account my driving style accordingly. Mike disagrees with my schedule and sticks to his own schedule, but he reluctantly admits my schedule is probably sufficient for my style of driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
Hmm...not quite. Remember that 2-3k a year included maintainance costs and tires. I have done the math many times and I cannot see how you can lease a new BMW for anywhere near that 250-300 a month number. Any new BMW is at least double that figure plus startup costs every 3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I think people who make a big deal about it just do because they can't have it.

I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.

Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
I have been saying this for years and it falls on deaf ears. It is not like the other brands do not have failures. The difference is that the other brands are cheaper to repair and can be repaired cutting corners (thus lowering overall costs more) and if you take that approach with a BMW your end result is your BMW no longer feels like a BMW so why bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
Many people do this to their detriment. Most BMW's will run to 100k miles with no maintainance and zero failures. The preventative maintainance that I am talking about does not pay dividends until you are well past 100k miles. If I plan to dump prior to 100k miles I do not do anything above the BMW schedule. The extended warranty is a rigged game and it benefits BMW not the owner. The owner just buys it to "feel better" because the car is still under warranty. If the car has been solid for 3-4 years and 50k miles my advice is just go cold turkey. Take the 3-4 grand worth of warranty money and use it to maintain the car. You will spend less than the warranty...trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.

And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.

That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
Exactly. You are obviously a smart man. I can afford to buy a new car every couple of years and I have done that many of times (see my sig). But I have also owned a few up to almost 200k miles. My decision to keep a car or get rid of it has nothing to do with the warranty, but to do with my wants or needs. I get that there are people like BJ that want a new car every 3 years and believe that leasing is God's gift to mankind. It all depends on your personal needs and wants. However, when someone tries to tell me that leasing a new car is cheaper than owning one for 7-10 years and 200k miles I know they have not done the math because an 8th grader can do enough math to tell you that is blatantly false. Lastly, I also use the dealer for most, if not all, of my maintainance and repairs. I am a long term customer and they give me discounts. I cannot deal with finding an indy and hoping he knows what he is doing. Also, they give me a free BMW loaner and the indy prices really are not that much better. I have compared and when I factor in the free loaner car I am probably paying the same or less than the indy.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
I'm seeing more new Panameras around here than any other new luxury car.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:05 pm

I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I'm seeing more new Panameras around here than any other new luxury car.
Well you live in the OC so sure that makes sense. There are a few of them in my neck of the woods as well (Palm Beach), but BMW's and Benz still rule the road around here. The thing that kills me is that most of the Panny's I see are the base model with zero options like your typical 528i. But for the 80k those base Panny's cost you can get a much nicer BMW or Benz. The Panny is not a car I want unless it is a 4S or GTS and, at that point, we are at 110-120k.
EddieB commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.

My buddy's '98 Z3 has been bulletproof and he's around 110k miles or so.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:11 pm

[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241180]I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]

Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
I don't think that I would buy a new Panamera and would lease it. I have not checked the depreciation numbers for the Panamera, but typically, big sedans don't do very well with resale from any car manufacturer. That may be a better low mileage used car purchase if you could get a great deal.

The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.

PS: I negotiated for 3 extended warranties with the dealer when we picked up a new 2011.5 M3 sedan. I got a volume discount deal on all three.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I don't think that I would buy a new Panamera and would lease it. I have not checked the depreciation numbers for the Panamera, but typically, big sedans don't do very well with resale from any car manufacturer. That may be a better low mileage used car purchase if you could get a great deal.

The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.
Funny you mention the Cayenne. We compared the Cayenne GTS along with the ML 63 and x5M. The Cayenne was a close second to the x5M for us, but the biggest problem for us was the seat comfort was much better in the x5 along with a little more rear storage space. I do like the Cayenne though. You are correct in that the Panny does not hold its value as well as other Porsche cars. Fest member leslierc purchased a year old Panny 4S certified with only 2k miles on it for some crazy number like 30k off MSRP so I can only imagine what the original owner traded it for. That is some pretty steep depreciation there.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Well you live in the OC so sure that makes sense. There are a few of them in my neck of the woods as well (Palm Beach), but BMW's and Benz still rule the road around here. The thing that kills me is that most of the Panny's I see are the base model with zero options like your typical 528i. But for the 80k those base Panny's cost you can get a much nicer BMW or Benz. The Panny is not a car I want unless it is a 4S or GTS and, at that point, we are at 110-120k.
That's why I find it so interesting that the Panamera is hands down the current high status car around here. Porsche before the Panny had a very low market share here against MB and BMW.

Looking into things this a.m., I'm now very interested in say a 2007 911, maybe with a 997.2.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:38 pm

[QUOTE=Alpine300ZHP;7241193]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]

Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
Yes but if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car, get something that costs you on average 300 bucks a year in repairs and maintenance. Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS. Might as well save 1200-2700 bucks a year.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for being frugal when you need to be frugal. I did it for 10 years. And it allowed me to finally get to a point in my life when I could afford the new car smell with all the bells and whistles. I just think if you are spending more than a 1k a year in repairs...you should start looking at a new vehicle. (obviously those with rolls, ferraris, lambos etc are excluded as an oil change could cost close to that )
beden1 commented:
December 10, 2012, 4:56 pm

[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241254]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post

Yes but if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car, get something that costs you on average 300 bucks a year in repairs and maintenance. Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS. Might as well save 1200-2700 bucks a year.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for being frugal when you need to be frugal. I did it for 10 years. And it allowed me to finally get to a point in my life when I could afford the new car smell with all the bells and whistles. I just think if you are spending more than a 1k a year in repairs...you should start looking at a new vehicle. (obviously those with rolls, ferraris, lambos etc are excluded as an oil change could cost close to that )
When out driving around this weekend, I was thinking that the E46 still looks great. They definitely don't look like a POS to me.
55 commented:
December 10, 2012, 5:02 pm

[QUOTE=beden1;7241290]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post

When out driving around this weekend, I was thinking that the E46 still looks great. They definitely don't look like a POS to me.
Chris90 commented:
December 10, 2012, 5:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
I wouldn't drive a ZX2, new or old, but driving an old ZHP is pure pleasure, that's why we do it. They give me brand new 3 series loaners when I go in for service. They're super nice, but I'm always glad to get my car back.
Chris90 commented:
December 10, 2012, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS.
That's completely wrong. My wife gets all kinds of comments at work about marrying some rich guy, cause they see me pick her up in an 8 year old 3 series. Try that in a Corolla. People have no clue what year your car is, they just see the badge. It's stupid and annoying, but that's how people are outside BMW forums.
hans007 commented:
December 10, 2012, 5:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
That's completely wrong. My wife gets all kinds of comments at work about marrying some rich guy, cause they see me pick her up in an 8 year old 3 series. Try that in a Corolla. People have no clue what year your car is, they just see the badge. It's stupid and annoying, but that's how people are outside BMW forums.
I think generally if you keep the paint nice its different things.

if you had say a really really great condition E36 , its like a really great classic type car and it gets props.

if you have a really great condition say E90 2006 325i, which is 7 years old, it looks exactly like a 1 year old E90, so people think you are a baller in a pretty recent 3 series (since BMW does 7 years unlike the 5 or less other cars are).

if you have a 1998 corolla in perfect condition no one cares. if you have a 1998 LExus ES in great condition ITS STILL AN ANCIENT LEXUS ES
BentZero commented:
December 10, 2012, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not going to be condescending as its Christmas and my daughter's Elf On The Shelf is watching.

Answer these three questions:

1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?

2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?

3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?

BJ
1) Comfortably? $600. Psychologically? Idk, I've not had a car payment in close to a decade.

2) Nope

3) I'm going to go with yes. In my next car fun factor and manual tranny are important. My accord is a bit boring even though it's a V6. Brand name isn't a big deal to me. The other car I'm looking at is a BRZ and I'm patiently awaiting the WRX redesign.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 10, 2012, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
That's completely wrong. My wife gets all kinds of comments at work about marrying some rich guy, cause they see me pick her up in an 8 year old 3 series. Try that in a Corolla. People have no clue what year your car is, they just see the badge. It's stupid and annoying, but that's how people are outside BMW forums.
8 yr old bimmer is still an e90 body style correct? In most people's eyes that is still a modern BMW. So you are good

I am talking the cars that are clearly a couple generations old. No matter what they look like old cars. I like using a valet at a nice hotel or restaurant as the perfect example. A 10 yr old BMW will go right next to the 10 year old VW. No matter how cherry you may keep it.

In no ways am I dissing the decision to keep your car for many years. In fact it is probably the smartest financial decision car wise out there. Just once it is costing you 1500k a year or more to keep it running it might be time to come up with a new vehicle.
ProRail commented:
December 10, 2012, 6:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
Yeah. I keep telling myself thst instead of spending 1.5 K per year on my 1999 528 I should spend 65 K on a new one. Then I say to myself: "Nah."
Axxlrod commented:
December 10, 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Funny you mention the Cayenne. We compared the Cayenne GTS along with the ML 63 and x5M. The Cayenne was a close second to the x5M for us, but the biggest problem for us was the seat comfort was much better in the x5 along with a little more rear storage space. I do like the Cayenne though. You are correct in that the Panny does not hold its value as well as other Porsche cars. Fest member leslierc purchased a year old Panny 4S certified with only 2k miles on it for some crazy number like 30k off MSRP so I can only imagine what the original owner traded it for. That is some pretty steep depreciation there.
A few years ago, I bought a cpo'd 997.1 Carrera S from my local porsche dealer.

The car was 1 year old with 5K miles on it. It had a sticker $101K. I bought it for $62K.

I owned it for 2 years and put over 20K miles on it. I sold it for $62K...

Wish those deals were around today...
ProRail commented:
December 10, 2012, 6:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.
If your titres only last a year that could add a lot to your costs. My Contis usually last about 4 yrs (60K) before I need to replace 2.
Yobyot commented:
December 10, 2012, 7:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)

I must say, though, that the E90 was a fabulous car that I loved owning. And BMW took care of some items that broke right after the warranty ended as goodwill. That reduced my costs. Believe it or not, to get the turn signal clicking back (it had failed), BMW replaced the entire instrument panel at a retail cost of $700 for the part alone. That's a good example of the technology we all love in BMWs and why they are so expensive to fix. In a Honda, the clicking noise is a side-effect of a $5 solenoid.

Still, when you are seven or eight years out and looking at normal wear and tear repairs and maintenance that can cost 10% of the value of the car, you wish you owned a Japanese car which due to volume has both inexpensive parts and many independent shops that can competently repair it.

So, while I am planning on keeping my 2009 Civic another five or six years (it's my winter car -- I don't drive the F30 in the snow or, truth be told, when it rains) I won't be keeping the BMW past the warranty.
Chris90 commented:
December 10, 2012, 8:28 pm

I'd be scared to own any 1st year BMW. '92 3 series, '99 3 series, 2006 3 series . . . All trouble.
namelessman commented:
December 10, 2012, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
So, while I am planning on keeping my 2009 Civic another five or six years (it's my winter car -- I don't drive the F30 in the snow or, truth be told, when it rains) I won't be keeping the BMW past the warranty.
I did plan to sell my previous bimmer after 3 years, but I ended up keeping it for 12 years and 100k until the rust warranty ran out, I guess it depends on which warranty one refers to. Maybe I got lucky, the beater looked and ran great all those years, and my average annual expense beyond warranty had been around 500-1000. A great independent BMW mechanic did help, but I would agree with other posters that individual driving styles and such can make huge differences to out-of-warranty expenses.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 10, 2012, 8:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero;7241387

1) Comfortably? $600. Psychologically? Idk, I've not had a car payment in close to a decade.
How long did you own the car before you paid it off and had no payments for 10 years?

BJ
MMME30W commented:
December 10, 2012, 9:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
Excellent and perceptive post.

I would have no problem owning an out of warranty E46 (and did). An E9x, probably not...an F30, no; at least not until the small displacement turbos get 3-5 years on them.

Having said that both our E90 and E91 were pretty reliable. The E92 has had one issue, the ubiquitous idle control valve, but that might be unique to the S65.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 10, 2012, 10:54 pm

[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241442] Yes but if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car, get something that costs you on average 300 bucks a year in repairs and maintenance. Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS. Might as well save 1200-2700 bucks a year.
QUOTE]

I guess it's for the same reason you've decided to "personalize" your car to seperate yourself in some way from your surroundings. I could comfortably go out and get a new M3 or whatever. But I don't want an m3.

I'm a car connoisseur and my preference is classic, very powerful, and rare. Just not a combination that lends itself to new cars.

Now for my wife? Sure - f30 all the way. Don't know if she's going to love it - guess we'll find that out if the wagon comes in manuals trans. If not, it's off to test drive a Porsche Cayenne - which by golly, offers an honest to God manual transmission'd SUV.
LarryboysUDM commented:
December 11, 2012, 12:49 am

I've mostly owned Japanese cars and they are very reliable even if I did most of the fluid changes...at 10 years old the only thing that had to be replaced in the engine area of my RSX is the starter...I still have original clutch, brake pads, rotors, belts, changed both headlights once and the front driver blinker recently burned out.
German cars are more complicated and are not as reliable...my wife's car is a good example...these were the issues/items changed thru the 6 years of ownership...serpentine belt, brake pads, brake squeak, balance shaft (dealer paid half the cost), coolant hose replacement (trip interrupted), power steering reservoir replaced, at least 6x changed front and back bulbs.
Both are from normal driving, sometimes spirited but not to abuse and good maintenance.
Through 2500+ miles and 2.5 months, my F30 brakes squeak (I'm not surprised) and I had the dealer check (reproduced) and worked on it once. I'll bring it back soon and if they can't fix it I'm informing BMW HQ.
Somehow I feel safer in a German car and my F30 is definitely more fun and very responsive.
Will I keep keep my F30 after warranty? I want to but I'll have to wait and see.
3284me commented:
December 11, 2012, 5:30 am

I keep my cars for ten years and I drive more than 20k per year so I will let you know! I still have my y2k maxima with 216,000 miles on her. One radiator, alternator, two batteries, and a thermostat to date. My 2011 328 has 33850 miles and I will be out of warrenty the latter part of 2013.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 11, 2012, 9:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'd be scared to own any 1st year BMW. '92 3 series, '99 3 series, 2006 3 series . . . All trouble.
Agree. That is why I placed an order for a 2013 x5. The x5 has had its share of growing pains and I felt more comfortable taking the last year production car than a first year production car (2014). Despite my preference to not buy a car within the first 2 years of production I admit that I did violate that rule, for the first time ever, with the F10.
Daedalus34r commented:
December 11, 2012, 10:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
8 yr old bimmer is still an e90 body style correct? In most people's eyes that is still a modern BMW. So you are good
woah you must be new to bmw, an 8yr old 3 series puts it firmly into the E46 generation.

That said, it has a classic look and imo will never appear dated. early 2000 bmws will always look good. It's the asian flame surfaced design cars that look stale a year after being released.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
woah you must be new to bmw, an 8yr old 3 series puts it firmly into the E46 generation.

That said, it has a classic look and imo will never appear dated. early 2000 bmws will always look good. It's the asian flame surfaced design cars that look stale a year after being released.
It's more than I have no idea what year it is

It blows my mind that we are at 2012 and counting back is getting to be distressing. Yes, 2004 would be 8 years ago, not 2006. lol. I am so smart S-M-R-T.

In fact I used to sell BMWS back in the early to mid 90s so I have been part of the world for a long time. No offense to any e46 owners but I hated that body style and thus have blocked that time period from my life

Off topic, how scary is it when you hear a song and think that it is from just a couple years ago and then you find out it is from say 2000 and you realize that is 12+ years ago. Friggin depressing.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post

No offense to any e46 owners but I hated that body style and thus have blocked that time period from my life
+1

I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.

It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.

The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.

Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.

It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.

The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.

Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".

BJ
BJ, your car is starting to look a bit dated as compared to the F32. What are your neighbors going to say!
Buildbright commented:
December 11, 2012, 12:19 pm

I would never own newer cars out of warrenty unless you can afford some hefty bills. Or its a Toyota Camry. or Honda Civic. The more tech that goes in to these cars the more crazy they get with the repair bills.

I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.

I know some people are lucky and I am not going to say they are always going to break but if they do...watch out. Car dealers laugh at the people who buy used (older- non CPO) Merc's, Audi's, BMW's, Jag's, and Landrover's. They feel so special that they could get a Luxury car and then boom... 5k or worse repair bill and they have to sell the car for peanuts because they can not afford to fix it.

I heard a BMW owner say "they should sell used BMW's for $1 because the repair bills cost more then the payments!" Granted I know that is not always the case.
Chris90 commented:
December 11, 2012, 1:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Car dealers laugh at the people who buy used (older- non CPO) Merc's, Audi's, BMW's, Jag's, and Landrover's. They feel so special that they could get a Luxury car and then boom... 5k or worse repair bill and they have to sell the car for peanuts because they can not afford to fix it.
I laugh at their CPO asking prices.

The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
namelessman commented:
December 11, 2012, 1:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.
For newer cars with PZEV designation the fuel injectors are covered 15 years/150k. Mercedes, Ford, Honda, and even Kia are good at listing out all the emission related parts in their PZEV warranty booklets, BMW does not, but one SA said every dealership should carry a PZEV list for each PZEV model.
BMWTurboDzl commented:
December 11, 2012, 5:59 pm

I would say don't be a half@ss when it comes to maintenance. The car will make you pay if you try cutting too many corners.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App
Buildbright commented:
December 11, 2012, 6:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I laugh at their CPO asking prices.

The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
I think you are lucky and have a solid car. But talk to people who own Mercs, or other BMW's there is a reason they become very cheap out of warrenty. If they were so reliable and cheap to own people would not pay top dollar for used Toyotas and Hondas.

Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
Chris90 commented:
December 11, 2012, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I think you are lucky and have a solid car. But talk to people who own Mercs, or other BMW's there is a reason they become very cheap out of warrenty. If they were so reliable and cheap to own people would not pay top dollar for used Toyotas and Hondas.

Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
I don't know about Honda, but Toyota is living purely on their reputation these days. My brother's three 2000-era Toyotas all went to the scrap heap while my '95 325i is still going strong (with 2nd owner since I sold it).

So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted. I see a lot of comments from people here who've never owned a BMW more than 3 years old but are scared of owning a used one.
EnerJi commented:
December 11, 2012, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
An interesting example, but I question your (apparent) conclusion that one should not own BMWs out-of-warranty. It appears you may be neglecting to calculate the cost of depreciation in your analysis:

A new car depreciates 15% in the first year. On a $50k car, that comes out to $7,500 of "hidden" cost in the first year of ownership. Assuming a consistent 15% depreciation, even in the fourth and last year of warranty, your car will lose $4,605.93 in value.

In the fifth year (the first non-warranty year), the car will lose $3,915.05, and as each year progresses it will lose a progressively smaller amount. For the fifth year of ownership to be less cost-effective than a brand new car, you would have to incur over $3584.95 in expenses. In the sixth and subsequent years, the expense bill would have to be even higher to make it less cost-effective than a new car.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:04 pm

oops
boltjaM3s commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.

It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.

The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.

Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".

BJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BJ, your car is starting to look a bit dated as compared to the F32. What are your neighbors going to say!
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 11, 2012, 11:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
That sounds like a good plan. I'm looking forward to seeing an F32 up close. It looks great in the pictures.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it ...
My VAG product will hit a quarter million miles by the end of this week.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300.
That is the key point to get a handle on. The more expensive the car, they more they charge you for the same exact work. It is the attitude "you are rich, pay up."

First of all, if we are talking about out of ownership until say 100K with a good mix of highway driving, chances are you will not need any major repairs.

Regardless of whether you will go 100K or 200K or more, if you are going to service your car at dealerships, it may not be worth it. This is true of Honda/Toyota as well. People think they are much cheaper, but they are not. They are only a little cheaper, and certainly not for everything. Someone mentioned failed ignition coils. They are $100 a pop for one of the latest Infinities if you want to stick with OEM. That's a lot more than for VAG coils. One of the dampers of a friend's Honda Pilot was leaking and was replaced under warranty for supposedly $700. That is exactly what I paid to have four Bilsteins installed on my car (labor and parts) at my indy. If you go to the dealer, take a jar of lubricant with you. They should be used only for special problems such as electronic sensors. For most things, indies, even non-specialists can handle it.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.
I think everyone would agree that driving a 10 year old 911 and a 10 year old Toyota Echo is not the same thing. And there are lots of in betweens and the differences remain great. Just because a car is 10 year old does not mean it is a POS, especially if it well maintained.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.
VW dealers are often thieves and rapists, and incompetent too. Speaking from experience.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:48 am

Btw, many of the newer German engines don't need timing belt jobs anymore. If you have a Honda, which will typically have an interference engine, the timing belt job will cost you a petty penny.
tturedraider commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
What?! I had a single ignition coil fail. It made perfect sense to replace just that. And that's exactly what I did. No worries since.

I'm a slow worker and it takes me a hour to change my own oil. Costs me about $60. If I want to have it done it costs about $100. Every 7,500 miles is about twice a year, $200. Old days with dyno juice about $25 four times a year, every 3,000 miles and only 12,000 miles/year, $100 and those were the really old days.

Brakes - $250 in quality parts per axle. Granted not everyone can do it, but it's really not a hard diy. It's dirty and somewhat time consuming, but it's actually pretty straight forward.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 3:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I don't know about Honda, but Toyota is living purely on their reputation these days. My brother's three 2000-era Toyotas all went to the scrap heap while my '95 325i is still going strong (with 2nd owner since I sold it).

So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted.
I completely agree. The differences are not that great to begin with.

Here is my own experience with own and family cars, which given the few data points is statistically meaningless, but here it is nonetheless:

1980s Corolla:
- tires shot by 26K because of horrendous factory alignment
- muffler all rusted out and punctured by 46K. New OEM part alone was $180, which was lots of dough back then. A literally back alley shop welded some third party muffler for $40 which lasted until I donated the car with 228K miles on it. Some OEM quality there
- radiator replaced by 60K, with much better third party brand that lasted the life of the car.
- rack and pinion steering was leaking buckets and had to be replace at barely over 100K.
- engine started burning oil a little before 100K.
- "major service" at dealer used to cost $200-300 (again, this was a long time ago).

1998 Camry: started burning oil before 100K. window motor died. Radiator showed micro-cracks and was replaced to the tune of $400 (OEM part). When it was time to do shocks, timing belt + whole works, I decided it was not confidence inspiring and it was not worth it. Yes, for a Camry! (But it was worth it for my VW) We dumped the Camry at Carmax for an inflated $6000 with about 110-120K miles on it.

1997 Accord: paint peel, lousy brakes, dead auto transmission (Honda picked only half the bill).

2000 Odyssey: full tranny replacement, fortunately under extended warranty.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 12, 2012, 3:10 am

Btwy, here is something I realized.

Take a 15K Civic and a 60K BMW. Look at most maintenance/repair items. I think you would find that they would be maybe 1.25 to at most 2 times more for the BMW (not at dealers, obviously), not 4 times more. So from that perspective, it may actually make more sense to hang on to the expensive car longer and just toss the cheap car like a disposable item.
bennyg1 commented:
December 12, 2012, 3:33 am

AFAICT expensive dealer servicing is industry wide now, the business model of 'break even on the purchase, make money on the service'

Some more expensive than others, basically here in Oz everything but parts for Falcons and Commodores are imported so are ridiculously expensive. You are simply mad if you service dealer (e.g. fuel pump for my E34, genuine $513, OEM Bosch $185, some other OEM I didnt buy $135)

And will someone please mention that Camrys and Corollas have so little in common (4 wheels perhaps) with a well sorted decent spec euro (i.e. not entry level, sorry 316ti and A-class owners you dont drive real BMWs/MBs). Different leagues, of course there will be different costs involved. I think my $$ has got me a hell of a lot of car in my E34 540i, plus there is lots of rep around for oldskool BMWs.

Sense in maintenance saves dollars in fixes
thumper_330 commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
Heh... I can't disagree with you there, mate... but in year 2 of my 135i lease now and I'm still in love with this little car. Not sure I am going to be buying it out at the end of the lease or not (I am really craving a manual now that my knee surgeries are a year in my past!) but it's in no way a piece of furniture to me. It's at the moment my favourite car I have ever owned.
iamthewalrus commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
(snip)
Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.
(snip)
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.

-James
San Francisco, CA
namelessman commented:
December 12, 2012, 12:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.
Sounds like a wise plan. My old bimmer had MT and NA I/6, and it just kept going strong, and remained shinny. Probably should have kept it but no garage space left ....
namelessman commented:
December 12, 2012, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is my own experience with own and family cars, which given the few data points is statistically meaningless, but here it is nonetheless:
....
+1, same experience here.
X5 Tall Guy commented:
December 12, 2012, 12:55 pm

My family has owned five BMW's, still have four of them and they have all been great automobiles. My first was an '01 X5 3.0i that I sold with 118K miles. I had some minor repair bills outside of warranty (mostly worn suspension parts), but nothing major. Its new owner says it is still going strong after an additional 3+ years. Its repalcement is an '09 X5 3.5d and that vehicle has been fabulous. It only has 40K miles on it, so too new to report on repair bills.

My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!

Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!

In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 12, 2012, 1:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 Tall Guy View Post
My family has owned five BMW's, still have four of them and they have all been great automobiles. My first was an '01 X5 3.0i that I sold with 118K miles. I had some minor repair bills outside of warranty (mostly worn suspension parts), but nothing major. Its new owner says it is still going strong after an additional 3+ years. Its repalcement is an '09 X5 3.5d and that vehicle has been fabulous. It only has 40K miles on it, so too new to report on repair bills.

My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!

Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!

In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
Your statement is the exact reason why some people feel BMW's should or should not be owned outside of warranty. It all depends on your threshold for excessive repair costs. Regardless, I maintain my view that these are well built cars and are well worth owning up to 200k miles when comapred with the cost of buying a new comparable car. The key is do you see the value in keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW or would you rather just lease a new one every 3 years. Both are fine as long as it fits your needs and wants.
Chris90 commented:
December 12, 2012, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Your statement is the exact reason why some people feel BMW's should or should not be owned outside of warranty. It all depends on your threshold for excessive repair costs. Regardless, I maintain my view that these are well built cars and are well worth owning up to 200k miles when comapred with the cost of buying a new comparable car. The key is do you see the value in keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW or would you rather just lease a new one every 3 years. Both are fine as long as it fits your needs and wants.
Some people have silly thresholds that are really just excuses to get a new car.

Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
EddieB commented:
December 12, 2012, 1:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.

-James
San Francisco, CA
My dad has a 2000 E46 323i Wagon and it's been pretty good except for the transmission had an issue where it wouldn't go into reverse or some such thing. That's another reason why I'll always get a manual on the cars I buy.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 12, 2012, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Some people have silly thresholds that are really just excuses to get a new car.

Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
Exactly. It is their money and they can spend it how they see fit. The key is to stop trying to convince smart people that a new car lease every 3 years is somehow saving money over keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 12, 2012, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
My dad has a 2000 E46 323i Wagon and it's been pretty good except for the transmission had an issue where it wouldn't go into reverse or some such thing. That's another reason why I'll always get a manual on the cars I buy.
Same here. My 30k mile a year commuter is mated to a proper 6MT.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 12, 2012, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Exactly. It is their money and they can spend it how they see fit. The key is to stop trying to convince smart people that a new car lease every 3 years is somehow saving money over keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW.
The funny thing is every single one of us lease supporters has said multiple times that if you own a vehicle 6 years or longer you are saving substantial dollars over the leasee. The fact of the matter most people dont own and drive cars that long. Having a 1200 a year repair habit is great until you are suddenly hit with the 5k one when the same repair on a honda may be 1500. That is the only premise we are making in regards to owning a bmw out of warranty.
Buildbright commented:
December 12, 2012, 9:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Some people have silly thresholds that are really just excuses to get a new car.

Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
I don't think there is anything silly about knowing for an almost fact what ones cost of ownership. It would be like me saying how silly it is for people being to cheap to own a new car.

We all make decisions based on experience, wants, and risk. I was a risk manager and can tell you there is logic in knowing your cost of ownership rather than rolling the dice.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 12, 2012, 9:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Exactly. It is their money and they can spend it how they see fit. The key is to stop trying to convince smart people that a new car lease every 3 years is somehow saving money over keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW.
Yeah, if you like driving old status symbols and can commit to having the same car for 10 years.

Because if you don't, if you cut it down to a realistic 5 years or 6 years, the math goes in the favor of the recurring 3 year leases under full warranty rather quickly.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 12, 2012, 9:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
The funny thing is every single one of us lease supporters has said multiple times that if you own a vehicle 6 years or longer you are saving substantial dollars over the leasee. The fact of the matter most people dont own and drive cars that long. Having a 1200 a year repair habit is great until you are suddenly hit with the 5k one when the same repair on a honda may be 1500. That is the only premise we are making in regards to owning a bmw out of warranty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I don't think there is anything silly about knowing for an almost fact what ones cost of ownership. It would be like me saying how silly it is for people being to cheap to own a new car.

We all make decisions based on experience, wants, and risk. I was a risk manager and can tell you there is logic in knowing your cost of ownership rather than rolling the dice.
The reason this topic is so polarizing is because you've got BMW owner/keepers that shouldn't be driving BMW's trying to lecture BMW leasers who should be driving BMW's.

Let me explain.

Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.

BJ
BentZero commented:
December 12, 2012, 9:46 pm

Thanks for all of the replies. Lots of differing views in this thread. Let me add another layer though. I'm thinking of buying a used F30 as to not take the hit on depreciation seeing as I intend to own the car for a long time. So the question is whether or not I can get an extended warranty if I buy a non-CPO car? For instance, if I find what I want at a Carmax instead of a BMW dealer. It'll be a task to find though since I don't want a car with more than 30k miles on it.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 12, 2012, 9:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
Thanks for all of the replies. Lots of differing views in this thread. Let me add another layer though. I'm thinking of buying a used F30 as to not take the hit on depreciation seeing as I intend to own the car for a long time. So the question is whether or not I can get an extended warranty if I buy a non-CPO car? For instance, if I find what I want at a Carmax instead of a BMW dealer. It'll be a task to find though since I don't want a car with more than 30k miles on it.
We keep discussing a cheap way to get into a new luxury car and it really isn't something you should be doing.

Consider spending the next 10 years in 3 leased Honda Accord's for less money than spending the next 10 years in 1 aging BMW 3 Series. You'll get every feature they offer, you'll be fully under warranty, and you'll have the excitement of a new car every 36 months and the flexibility to get into an expensive German luxury car if your lifestyle allows it.

Trying to beat the system doesn't work. You'll just wind up in an old car that's out of warranty and costing you big money. In 2022 you'll be sitting on a porch with your old dog at your feet and a warm beer in your hand gazing at your dented F30 and doing the math in your head and realizing that leasing 3 new cars would have saved you money and headaches and you wasted a decade driving an old car that you didn't love and spent more for that privilege.

I know. I did it myself.

BJ
Buildbright commented:
December 12, 2012, 10:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The reason this topic is so polarizing is because you've got BMW owner/keepers that shouldn't be driving BMW's trying to lecture BMW leasers who should be driving BMW's.

Let me explain.

Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.

BJ
I agree about the ignorant views of car ownership. I leased my new BMW and it was the right thing to do for me for many reasons.
Can Afford It
Business Tax Purposes
Like New Tech and Cars
Its Cheaper for Me than Buying IT
Fixed Cost of Ownership (No Surprises)

Yes there are a lot of crappy leases out there and there are even worse car purchases. Most people will grossly over pay for a car because they believe the salesman or are too lazy to travel/email another dealership sales associate. One must lease/buy for their situation not what others do or say. There is No One Size Fits All.
iamthewalrus commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We keep discussing a cheap way to get into a new luxury car and it really isn't something you should be doing.
+1 When a VW GTI -- fully loaded -- comes in at $30K, it just doesn't seem worth bending over backward to get into a luxury car. Buy the GTI and take the extra $10-15K and save it for out-of-warranty repairs over the 10+ years after the warranty ends.
Seriously, the GTI comes with a great engine, great handling, xenons, leather, sports suspension, sunroof, great stereo, and plenty of room for four, all at $30K. If you're on the fence or feel like you're really stretching financially, it's a no brainer. It's just not worth being "car rich" and "cash poor". You'll sleep better at night.
iamthewalrus commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Sounds like a wise plan. My old bimmer had MT and NA I/6, and it just kept going strong, and remained shinny. Probably should have kept it but no garage space left ....
And mine has been 100% garaged from day 1 (well day 1 after I bought it CPO with 9K miles on it). It looks practically new, inside and out.
Buildbright commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
+1 When a VW GTI -- fully loaded -- comes in at $30K, it just doesn't seem worth bending over backward to get into a luxury car. Buy the GTI and take the extra $10-15K and save it for out-of-warranty repairs over the 10+ years after the warranty ends.
Seriously, the GTI comes with a great engine, great handling, xenons, leather, sports suspension, sunroof, great stereo, and plenty of room for four, all at $30K. If you're on the fence or feel like you're really stretching financially, it's a no brainer. It's just not worth being "car rich" and "cash poor". You'll sleep better at night.
What if you don't want a GTI? Also not ever one who buys a Luxury car is a 30k Millionaire.
beden1 commented:
December 12, 2012, 11:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The reason this topic is so polarizing is because you've got BMW owner/keepers that shouldn't be driving BMW's trying to lecture BMW leasers who should be driving BMW's.

Let me explain.

Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.

BJ
Sorry, but this statement makes no sense whatsoever, even coming from you!

I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
Buildbright commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Sorry, but this statement makes no sense whatsoever, even coming from you!

I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
So how much then must one spend to earn your luxury car stamp of approval?
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post

Sorry, but this statement makes no sense whatsoever, even coming from you!
Luxury cars are meant to be kept for 3-5 years. They cost around $50,000. They set you back around $600 a month.

So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.

That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.

Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.

BJ
328i2013 commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:51 am

Lease makes sense for following:
- Those eligible for tax write off as a part of their business
- Those who like to get a new car every 3 years
- Those who prefer hassle free car ownership over savings
- Those who want to drive a car a bit more expensive than they can afford

For those wanting to keep the car for 5-6 years or so and drive under 20K, they come out ahead with buying. They might have to deal with some repair bills but chances are that the bills won't be very substantial in the 1-2 years they are out of warranty.

Never did the math for a 10 year buy. I think that's too long to keep a car, easpecially if that's your main car. Styles and tech get outdated too soon these days. And the cost of repair of these fun imports just take the fun out of it.
Buildbright commented:
December 13, 2012, 1:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328i2013 View Post
Lease makes sense for following:
- Those eligible for tax write off as a part of their business
- Those who like to get a new car every 3 years
- Those who prefer hassle free car ownership over savings
- Those who want to drive a car a bit more expensive than they can afford

For those wanting to keep the car for 5-6 years or so and drive under 20K, they come out ahead with buying. They might have to deal with some repair bills but chances are that the bills won't be very substantial in the 1-2 years they are out of warranty.

Never did the math for a 10 year buy. I think that's too long to keep a car, easpecially if that's your main car. Styles and tech get outdated too soon these days. And the cost of repair of these fun imports just take the fun out of it.
I agree with all those except the last one. Leasing is not for people to over extend themselves. Those leasee's usually have the bad experience. Can't afford premium fuel, can't pay end of lease fees, can't afford quality tires. Not to mention insurance is always more expensive. They also put down to much to get the payment cheaper and when the car gets wrecked they are screwed and tattooed.
pkim1079 commented:
December 13, 2012, 2:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Heh... I can't disagree with you there, mate... but in year 2 of my 135i lease now and I'm still in love with this little car. Not sure I am going to be buying it out at the end of the lease or not (I am really craving a manual now that my knee surgeries are a year in my past!) but it's in no way a piece of furniture to me. It's at the moment my favourite car I have ever owned.
My acl injury has me not driving stick. Its the damn left leg! But the options are getting much better now. Can do almost everything without a clutch now!!
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 13, 2012, 3:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford.
Or maybe they are really frugal, like you are being by tooling around with the bare minimum so as not to stand out as a sore.

Or maybe they are even just stingy. It's not always a question of affordability.
.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 13, 2012, 3:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We keep discussing a cheap way to get into a new luxury car and it really isn't something you should be doing.

Consider spending the next 10 years in 3 leased Honda Accord's for less money than spending the next 10 years in 1 aging BMW 3 Series. You'll get every feature they offer, you'll be fully under warranty, and you'll have the excitement of a new car every 36 months and the flexibility to get into an expensive German luxury car if your lifestyle allows it.
Sorry, but there is more to excitement in a car than the smell of carcinogenic solvents - I mean new car smell. I still take my very aging and lesser-than-BMW German car over any new Accord.
danderer commented:
December 13, 2012, 7:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford.
This is one of the silliest statements I've seen in a long time.

As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.

I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
Chris90 commented:
December 13, 2012, 7:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The reason this topic is so polarizing is because you've got BMW owner/keepers that shouldn't be driving BMW's trying to lecture BMW leasers who should be driving BMW's.

Let me explain.

Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.

Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.

BJ
Your math is so bad, please spare us the laughter.

As to your point, there are many who lease who can't afford it, they lease cause they want a BMW and can't afford $800/month, it's that simple. Maybe not so many BF members, but in the general public they are everywhere.

So sure, some buy cause they can't afford to lease, but they're likely way outnumbered by the ones who lease cause they can't afford to buy.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

As to your point, there are many who lease who can't afford it, they lease cause they want a BMW and can't afford $800/month, it's that simple. Maybe not so many BF members, but in the general public they are everywhere.

So sure, some buy cause they can't afford to lease, but they're likely way outnumbered by the ones who lease cause they can't afford to buy.
You are the perfect example.

You keep referencing a spend of $800 a month on your BMW but you didn't.

Your car is an '04. Assuming you bought in '03. Just because you paid $800 a month for the first 5 years doesn't mean you can afford an $800 monthly payment. The car is 9 years old. That's a $375 monthly payment, not an $800 monthly payment.

The point of this isn't to belittle what you're doing- it's great for you, couldn't be happier. You're happy, I'm happy. But when it comes to this type of conversation and this type of debate for buyers/leasers of brand new BMW's you don't have any value here because you aren't like us. None of us are keeping our F30's for 9-10 years. We budget ourselves at $600 a month for the next 10-30 years, not $375. Your advice and perspective are noted but not needed.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by danderer View Post
This is one of the silliest statements I've seen in a long time.

As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.

I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
Don't make this philosophical because that's not what's being discussed. I myself am slumming it in my F30, can afford a hell of a lot more car if I wanted to, to me it's what a Camry is to the typical American. That's a different discussion for a different day.

What we're talking about is perspective. Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years. And in that 'average' example, leasing and buying are practically the same cost, and if different we're talking only a few hundred dollars.

So when an interloper arises who keeps his car for 9-10 years and starts throwing around his opinions it makes no sense. It's like a Mets fan in a Yankees forum. That type of long-term buyer is trying to game the system, trying to squeek every last dollar out of BMW. The rest of us aren't doing that. 3-4 years, we pay what we pay, we move onto the next BMW.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
So how much then must one spend to earn your luxury car stamp of approval?
The 7 Series Li BMW, the larger Mercedes and Lexus sedans, the Porsche Panamera and the Bentleys would all be very good examples of luxury cars. They are all roomy and designed for luxury.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The 7 Series Li BMW, the larger Mercedes and Lexus sedans, the Porsche Panamera and the Bentleys would all be very good examples of luxury cars. They are all roomy and designed for luxury.
Stop.

We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Stop.

We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.

BJ
We used to lease a 2001 BMW 740il and owned a 2004 Mercedes S600. Those were prime examples of "luxury cars". Your F30 sir is no luxury car by comparison. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Stop.

We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.

BJ
Squeezing into the back seat of an F30 with my legs cramped behind the front seat is not my idea of luxury. For example, our 740il had enough rear leg room that you could actually lay down facing the front. BMW also provided foot rests for the rear passengers. Now, that's luxury.

You should be happy that the F30 is not considered a luxury sedan as the resale value for luxury sedans are the worst in any car category. Your lease payment would be much higher due to the lower residual value.
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:15 am

Wilkpedia examples of luxury:

Luxury good, an economic good or service for which demand increases more than proportionally as income rises
Luxury tax, tax on products not considered essential, such as expensive cars
Luxury vehicle, expensive automobiles
Luxury trains, expensive tourist trains
Luxury yacht, expensive privately owned, professionally crewed yacht
Luxury real estate, niche real estate market dealing with the highest economic group of property buyers
Luxury resort, exclusive vacation facilities
Luxury magazine, magazines devoted to fine craft and luxury goods


Some of the key words for luxury: expensive, exclusive, niche product, product not considered essential.
Daedalus34r commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Luxury cars are meant to be kept for 3-5 years. They cost around $50,000. They set you back around $600 a month.

So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.

That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.

Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.

BJ
Easily the dumbest writeup i've read in a long time. congrats.

Luxury cars are meant to be kept for however long you want them. If you like the car, you keep it, as simple as that. You don't get to decide how long someone wants to keep a car.

For that person who bought a $50k car and kept it 2x, that person bought a $50k car. Not sure why you decided to sleep during math class. The car loan gets paid back in 3-5 years just like everyone else, after that it's just incidentals (maintenance and repairs). You don't get to average out the cost of the car over the length of the ownership because that is not what was ACTUALLY paid. They, just like you made the high monthly payments, so why are you trying to insinuate they aren't capable of affording?

Got some bourgeois class fetish eh?
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
We used to lease a 2001 BMW 740il and owned a 2004 Mercedes S600. Those were prime examples of "luxury cars". Your F30 sir is no luxury car by comparison. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
BMW is a luxury brand.

The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.

Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus34r View Post
Easily the dumbest writeup i've read in a long time. congrats.

Luxury cars are meant to be kept for however long you want them. If you like the car, you keep it, as simple as that. You don't get to decide how long someone wants to keep a car.

For that person who bought a $50k car and kept it 2x, that person bought a $50k car. Not sure why you decided to sleep during math class. The car loan gets paid back in 3-5 years just like everyone else, after that it's just incidentals (maintenance and repairs). You don't get to average out the cost of the car over the length of the ownership because that is not what was ACTUALLY paid. They, just like you made the high monthly payments, so why are you trying to insinuate they aren't capable of affording?

Got some bourgeois class fetish eh?
Don't misunderstand me- back in 2003 you owned a great luxury car, no question. Today, it's viewed as an old, used car but you know that and don't care so that's full of win for you.

I am not judging the car you drive, merely pointing out that the economics you are used to are not what's being discussed here.

Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years.

Compared to me, since 2003 I've leased and have been in 4 different cars at an average monthly payment of $600.

For you, since 2003 you've owned and have been in 1 car at an average monthly payment of $360.

There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's just that you can't relate to the average buyer/leaser who is in a car for 3-4 years. You're very different. You bought your car to keep forever, so you're not budgeted for the true $600 value of a BMW. Instead, you're budgeted to a $360 payment akin to a Toyota. So when you and I talk, we're talking on different planets. I'm the BMW customer, you are not.

BJ
Alpine300ZHP commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Sorry, but this statement makes no sense whatsoever, even coming from you!

I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
Ditto. It is a sport sedan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
So how much then must one spend to earn your luxury car stamp of approval?
IMHO...more than 80k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Or maybe they are really frugal, like you are being by tooling around with the bare minimum so as not to stand out as a sore.

Or maybe they are even just stingy. It's not always a question of affordability.
.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danderer View Post
This is one of the silliest statements I've seen in a long time.

As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.

I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
I agree and do it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The 7 Series Li BMW, the larger Mercedes and Lexus sedans, the Porsche Panamera and the Bentleys would all be very good examples of luxury cars. They are all roomy and designed for luxury.
Agree with this too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
We used to lease a 2001 BMW 740il and owned a 2004 Mercedes S600. Those were prime examples of "luxury cars". Your F30 sir is no luxury car by comparison. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
Yep...enough said. Keep in mind I am a serial leaser too, but I also buy and see the advantages of the buy and hold approach. It all depends on the person and their wants/needs.
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Don't misunderstand me- back in 2003 you owned a great luxury car, no question. Today, it's viewed as an old, used car but you know that and don't care so that's full of win for you.

I am not judging the car you drive, merely pointing out that the economics you are used to are not what's being discussed here.

Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years.

Compared to me, since 2003 I've leased and have been in 4 different cars at an average monthly payment of $600.

For you, since 2003 you've owned and have been in 1 car at an average monthly payment of $360.

There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's just that you can't relate to the average buyer/leaser who is in a car for 3-4 years. You're very different. You bought your car to keep forever, so you're not budgeted for the true $600 value of a BMW. Instead, you're budgeted to a $360 payment akin to a Toyota. So when you and I talk, we're talking on different planets. I'm the BMW customer, you are not.

BJ
What about those who pay cash at time of delivery? I asked the sales manager at my local dealership this question when I was there this week. He said that before 2008 and the Great Recession, they used to lease over 55% of their cars. Now, he said leasing has fallen considerably to about 40% of their sales.

He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.
gweeta commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:10 am

I do think "luxury" is a relative term and depends in part on income. Some people would consider inside running water a luxury.

If everyone here disclosed his or her income, it would make it easier to understand what others mean by the term.

I'll start. I make less than BJ, so clearly a three series is a luxury (and during Sandy, so was running water).
eazy commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I don't know about Honda, but Toyota is living purely on their reputation these days. My brother's three 2000-era Toyotas all went to the scrap heap while my '95 325i is still going strong (with 2nd owner since I sold it).

So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted. I see a lot of comments from people here who've never owned a BMW more than 3 years old but are scared of owning a used one.
Honda's have that problem as well. My mom's 2006 TL interior was getting worn down very quickly also the car had more rattles than her previous five Acura's. She replace it with an ES350 which has been bulletproof.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
What about those who pay cash at time of delivery? I asked the sales manager at my local dealership this question when I was there this week. He said that before 2008 and the great recession, they used to lease over 55% of their cars. Now, he said leasing has fallen considerably to about 40% of their sales.

He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.

Not surprising. Other than for tax reasons, why would somebody lease or finance something that isn't expensive for them?
eazy commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW is a luxury brand.

The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.

Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

BJ
The best selling luxury brand vehicle in the USA is the RX350/400h. Also the 3 series is a sport sedan not a luxury sedan.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Not surprising. Other than for tax reasons, why would somebody lease or finance something that isn't expensive for them?
According to my financial planner, it's both for tax reasons and the ability to invest that cash in something that will make money as opposed to a depreciating asset.

Instead of writing BMW a check for $50,000 in August, I've got that money invested and am slowly making payments of $539 a month.

Also, to many people, a $539 monthly payment for a car is no different than any other utility like a cell phone bill, cable bill, gas and electric bill, etc. I don't prepay 7 years worth of electric bills, not sure why I would prepay 7 years of a car when, financially speaking, it's the same exact thing.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy View Post
The best selling luxury brand vehicle in the USA is the RX350/400h. Also the 3 series is a sport sedan not a luxury sedan.
True or false: BMW is a luxury brand.

True or false: A $50,000 car is viewed as a luxury to 80% of the American population.

True or false: BMW makes a version of the 3 Series called the Luxury line.

True or false: Performance enthusiasts don't want to hear that they are driving luxury cars because it upsets them.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
True or false: BMW is a luxury brand.

True or false: A $50,000 car is viewed as a luxury to 80% of the American population.

True or false: BMW makes a version of the 3 Series called the Luxury line.

True or false: Performance enthusiasts don't want to hear that they are driving luxury cars because it upsets them.

BJ
- True, but when did you start considering those 80%ers?

- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker

- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
namelessman commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
What about those who pay cash at time of delivery? I asked the sales manager at my local dealership this question when I was there this week. He said that before 2008 and the Great Recession, they used to lease over 55% of their cars. Now, he said leasing has fallen considerably to about 40% of their sales.

He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.
+1, that's what the finance guy told me too at delivery, in our locales 60+% are cash deals.
pkim1079 commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:13 pm

Ppl dont buy 7series and S classes anymore do they? I know rich guys who lease gt3s for the min mileage track the poop out of it the return. Good way to always have an awesome track car. I wouldnt buy a car unless it will be a classic or the potential to. I would buy a 1m right now. The f30 for me is a temp
namelessman commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car.
This is a good point. For $100k and 10 years, one can own a $100k F10 M5, or lease a F30 3-4 times. Most BMW enthusiasts probably will pick the M5. :0)
kobechrome commented:
December 13, 2012, 12:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'd be scared to own any 1st year BMW. '92 3 series, '99 3 series, 2006 3 series . . . All trouble.
My 06 325i has been rock solid (now at 105k). Was out of warranty pretty much after 2009 and repairs have been less than $700/year.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 13, 2012, 1:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
According to my financial planner, it's both for tax reasons and the ability to invest that cash in something that will make money as opposed to a depreciating asset.

Instead of writing BMW a check for $50,000 in August, I've got that money invested and am slowly making payments of $539 a month.

Also, to many people, a $539 monthly payment for a car is no different than any other utility like a cell phone bill, cable bill, gas and electric bill, etc. I don't prepay 7 years worth of electric bills, not sure why I would prepay 7 years of a car when, financially speaking, it's the same exact thing.

BJ
My point is for some people the spread is immaterial. The size of the numbers don't matter to them enough to offset the simplicity of paying cash up front. It's like buying a toaster to them, financing it would be too much trouble for the size of the transaction.

As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
EddieB commented:
December 13, 2012, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Luxury cars are meant to be kept for 3-5 years. They cost around $50,000. They set you back around $600 a month.

So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.

That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.

Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.

BJ
First off 5 years is not its lifespan. BMW has a traditionally kept a body series 6 or 7 years. My dad's 2000 323i is in excellent shape and still looks good. My 6 year old E46 M3 looked brand new and people were shocked to learn it was not a current model.

When you lease short term you're going to pay the biggest part of the car's depreciation the rest of your life. At least with a car that's paid for (and older) the depreciation plateaus. There's no reason to assume a BMW is going to fall apart 2 minutes out of warranty if maintained.

I didn't keep my M3 longer as I wanted a better DD.
Michael Schott commented:
December 13, 2012, 2:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Stop.

We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.

BJ
You are exactly right BJ. When an Accord can do exactly what a 3 series can do (with more room no less) why do people aspire to a BMW (forget the tiny enthusiast market)? Because it's a desirable brand with prestige and is considered a luxury brand. Anyone in the US who thinks BMW, Audi, Infiniti and Mercedes sport sedans are not luxury cars just won't admit to the truth because they can't see past their inherent dislike for the terminology.
Chris90 commented:
December 13, 2012, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You are the perfect example.

You keep referencing a spend of $800 a month on your BMW but you didn't.

Your car is an '04. Assuming you bought in '03. Just because you paid $800 a month for the first 5 years doesn't mean you can afford an $800 monthly payment. The car is 9 years old. That's a $375 monthly payment, not an $800 monthly payment.

The point of this isn't to belittle what you're doing- it's great for you, couldn't be happier. You're happy, I'm happy. But when it comes to this type of conversation and this type of debate for buyers/leasers of brand new BMW's you don't have any value here because you aren't like us. None of us are keeping our F30's for 9-10 years. We budget ourselves at $600 a month for the next 10-30 years, not $375. Your advice and perspective are noted but not needed.

BJ
You're right, I didn't pay $800/month, I paid $34,000 cash w/ tax for my '04, back in '05.

So yeah, I think I could afford your $530/month lease payment, if I wanted to go that way.
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 2:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are exactly right BJ. When an Accord can do exactly what a 3 series can do (with more room no less) why do people aspire to a BMW (forget the tiny enthusiast market)? Because it's a desirable brand with prestige and is considered a luxury brand. Anyone in the US who thinks BMW, Audi, Infiniti and Mercedes sport sedans are not luxury cars just won't admit to the truth because they can't see past their inherent dislike for the terminology.
BMW does make luxury cars, it's just not the 3 Series models which have always been considered as sport sedans or coupes.
ChrisF01 commented:
December 13, 2012, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
You should try something a little bit more equipped or something with a larger engine... It'll push that loss of excitement back a bit. Get a 335 or M4 on your next lease, you might still be in love by the time your lease is up.

I used to turn over cars every 1-2 years till I got my 08 Charger SRT, it was so much fun I kept it for a little over 3 years before getting bored and trading it in for my 300SRT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW is a luxury brand.

The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.

Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

BJ
I'm 27 and don't view 7er's as "old timer Luxo-cruisers"...
WaxComb commented:
December 13, 2012, 3:13 pm

What kind of car should I have bought if I paid 30k cash for a CPO 3 series?
Lorenzzo commented:
December 13, 2012, 3:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW does make luxury cars, it's just not the 3 Series models which have always been considered as sport sedans or coupes.
I need to know if some other things I bought are luxury items.

Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.

Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.

Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.

I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.
gweeta commented:
December 13, 2012, 3:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I need to know if some other things I bought are luxury items.

Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.

Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.

Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.

I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.
Shun Knives-- Yes if used to cut sushi, but no if used to cut open chips.

Uggs-- No. The name alone disqualifies them.

Ribbed Condoms-- Dumb question. Goes without saying.
Buildbright commented:
December 13, 2012, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
My point is for some people the spread is immaterial. The size of the numbers don't matter to them enough to offset the simplicity of paying cash up front. It's like buying a toaster to them, financing it would be too much trouble for the size of the transaction.

As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
Financial Planners are good to take advice from sometimes but one must remember if they knew the best place to always invest money they wouldn't need a job as a financial planner. If you invest, cash flow is key to growing your capital through opportunities. No cash flow = No gain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
- True, but when did you start considering those 80%ers?

- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker

- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
The F30 is a luxury car if you don't think it is you do not know the definition of a luxury product.

"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."

The E9x like you drive a less a luxury car that is a main complaint with the F30's. Rides to soft, electric steering is effortless, seats are to comfortable, power seats standard, interior feels like a full size car, full color HUD and more. The F30 is more on plane with your 535i.
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 8:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Financial Planners are good to take advice from sometimes but one must remember if they knew the best place to always invest money they wouldn't need a job as a financial planner. If you invest, cash flow is key to growing your capital through opportunities. No cash flow = No gain.

The F30 is a luxury car if you don't think it is you do not know the definition of a luxury product.

"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."

The E9x like you drive a less a luxury car that is a main complaint with the F30's. Rides to soft, electric steering is effortless, seats are to comfortable, power seats standard, interior feels like a full size car, full color HUD and more. The F30 is more on plane with your 535i.
So, is this the new BMW montra then?

3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan

7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan

PS: I sat in an F30 yesterday in both the front and back seats. It's too cramped in the back to be a luxury car, at least in my idea of luxury. I also consider our 535xi to be a sport sedan, albeit with a bit more luxury appointments as compared to the 3 Series.
Snareman commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:06 pm

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd pretty much NEVER own one out of warranty. I' had more problems with my first BMW than my previous 5 cars (Mazda, 3 Civics and G35) combined. And my 2nd BMW hasn't been much better. Still love the car. Just hate the reliability.
Buildbright commented:
December 13, 2012, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
So, is this the new BMW montra then?

3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan

7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan

PS: I sat in an F30 yesterday in both the front and back seats. It's too cramped in the back to be a luxury car, at least in my idea of luxury. I also consider our 535xi to be a sport sedan, albeit with a bit more luxury appointments as compared to the 3 Series.
Montra who needs a montra just drive the damn car. Their both luxury sport sedans one is bigger and costs more.

Before you bought your Porsche did you research or ask the salesman what its montra is going to be.

If you think the backseat of the F30 is cramped you need to slow down on the carbs.

Montra is the flying thing Godzilla fights right?.....jk
SilverX3 commented:
December 13, 2012, 10:48 pm

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.


you're a short term lover

should be ... "in health or sickness.... Love forver I do" when you sign the lease
beden1 commented:
December 13, 2012, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Montra who needs a montra just drive the damn car. Their both luxury sport sedans one is bigger and costs more.

Before you bought your Porsche did you research or ask the salesman what its montra is going to be.

If you think the backseat of the F30 is cramped you need to slow down on the carbs.

Montra is the flying thing Godzilla fights right?.....jk
Leg room is my problem and not width. Maybe you're a little guy and fit better?
Buildbright commented:
December 14, 2012, 12:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Leg room is my problem and not width. Maybe you're a little guy and fit better?
Not a dwarf, but after being to Europe I wish I was a little guy. But I don't spend much time in the backseat as I am driving but my 6'2" inch friends find it to be very comfortable.

My point was you don't rate a car by price tags or status symbols. Your a blessed man to have so many nice cars. I have drove some heaps before as I have not been born with a silverspoon. I have friends that regard their new Honda Accord a luxury car and it is to them.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 12:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Not a dwarf, but after being to Europe I wish I was a little guy. But I don't spend much time in the backseat as I am driving but my 6'2" inch friends find it to be very comfortable.

My point was you don't rate a car by price tags or status symbols. Your a blessed man to have so many nice cars. I have drove some heaps before as I have not been born with a silverspoon. I have friends that regard their new Honda Accord a luxury car and it is to them.
My wife and I got married at 24 with $3,600 between us 35 years ago. No silver spoon and we appreciate everything we worked very hard to achieve. But, it's not the cost but more the configuration that determines a car's primary function. To me, a larger, more comfortable and roomy car would lend itself better to being a luxury ride.

I'm 6'4"
1naztyx5 commented:
December 14, 2012, 1:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Not a dwarf, but after being to Europe I wish I was a little guy. But I don't spend much time in the backseat as I am driving but my 6'2" inch friends find it to be very comfortable.
lmao!!!! no offense but you must be short for someone 6'2" to find the rear seat comfortable, just had a loner for a week and i have to say unless you are a toddler or toddler hight, there is no leg room back there.

this car made me love my X5 more and more
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 1:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1naztyx5 View Post
lmao!!!! no offense but you must be short for someone 6'2" to find the rear seat comfortable, just had a loner for a week and i have to say unless you are a toddler or toddler hight, there is no leg room back there.

this car made me love my X5 more and more
I can sit in the back of our 535xi with some comfort, but it too could use more space if traveling any distance. Our most comfortable vehicle is our Tahoe.
BentZero commented:
December 14, 2012, 1:21 am

Not sure how this turned into a lease versus buy debate. I may be an anomaly, but I don't keep my cars for 10 years so I can "get into a car I can't afford". That's just a weird statement. Do you imagine that I'm eating ramen noodles the first 5 years until the car is paid off? I find a car I'm going to love and drive it. If I don't love it I'll get rid of it when the honeymoon is over. BTW, the dude that is churning through cars over the same 10 year period has gone through $150,000 worth of cars. Nothing wrong with that either. To each his own.

The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.

Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
- True, but when did you start considering those 80%ers?

- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker

- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
The 80%'ers are always under consideration as they are the ones who view BMW's as such a status symbol, such a luxury that they cannot afford.

The Luxury line is not a marketing ploy; it's an option package that offers more differentiation than other packages do, has more variance to the base F30 than an M-Sport.

The confusion exists in your mind. Not only has BMW nurtured the perception of "luxury" since 1985, they've finally branded their cars that way. I've got a "luxury" line with a "premium" package and drive in something called "comfort" mode. The 3 Series has changed, sorry, not some faux racecar anymore.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This is a good point. For $100k and 10 years, one can own a $100k F10 M5, or lease a F30 3-4 times. Most BMW enthusiasts probably will pick the M5. :0)
....and there's nothing wrong with that. But someone in a 10 year old BMW can't relate to those of us who are bored with our rides after 18 months, start scoping out our next rides at 24 months, and take delivery in Month 30.

It's apples and oranges, two different philosophies, two different automotive budgets, and (often) two different social classes.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
My point is for some people the spread is immaterial. The size of the numbers don't matter to them enough to offset the simplicity of paying cash up front. It's like buying a toaster to them, financing it would be too much trouble for the size of the transaction.

As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
Agreed, but buying a car might be easier up-front but is a PITA later on when its time to sell.

As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.

BJ
madurodave commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
Depends on how you drive, your environment and maintenance.

My 2007 X3 just turned 130000 miles. It has been very trouble-free. I had a CPO warranty to 100k miles. Great vehicle. I can't wait to see it hit 150000 and 200000 miles!

My 530 - has over 100000 miles. Excellent so far, although my wife just told me the heated steering wheel died last night!

My Z4 - so far great, but it is a baby as far as miles.

So my answer is no - no issues owning out of warranty!
CALWATERBOY commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I need to know if some other things I bought are luxury items.

Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.

Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.

Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.

I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.

Dash:
  • Any craft knife with hardened edge can better - ceramic knife - ultrasonic knife
  • Custom fitted fleece lined
  • No raincoat! True lux completely natural
Done correctly, the DIY Brotherhood trumps.


.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
First off 5 years is not its lifespan. BMW has a traditionally kept a body series 6 or 7 years. My dad's 2000 323i is in excellent shape and still looks good. My 6 year old E46 M3 looked brand new and people were shocked to learn it was not a current model.

When you lease short term you're going to pay the biggest part of the car's depreciation the rest of your life. At least with a car that's paid for (and older) the depreciation plateaus. There's no reason to assume a BMW is going to fall apart 2 minutes out of warranty if maintained.

I didn't keep my M3 longer as I wanted a better DD.
I wasn't referring to the relevance of the bodystyle, rather that BMW builds its cars for a buyer who gets bored every 3 years, builds its programs and financial models along those lines.

BMW is selling $50,000 German luxury cars, is expecting a $599 payment every month for their products, is anticipating a buyer to re-up in 3 years for a newer version. So when someone buys one, keeps it 2x or 3x that expected lifespan it's not the intention of the vehicle. There's nothing wrong with that practice for the 5% of the population that will do that, but it's not real-world and it's not a discussion point that matters to the 95% that never keeps a car that long, especially one that has a connotation of a luxury status symbol.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are exactly right BJ. When an Accord can do exactly what a 3 series can do (with more room no less) why do people aspire to a BMW (forget the tiny enthusiast market)? Because it's a desirable brand with prestige and is considered a luxury brand. Anyone in the US who thinks BMW, Audi, Infiniti and Mercedes sport sedans are not luxury cars just won't admit to the truth because they can't see past their inherent dislike for the terminology.
+1

Thank you. Perfectly stated.

BMW's are luxury cars first, performance cars a distant second. Personally, I'm happy they are both because that's why I drive them.

BJ
CALWATERBOY commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I can sit in the back of our 535xi with some comfort, but it too could use more space if traveling any distance. Our most comfortable vehicle is our Tahoe.

The one & only BMW with sufficient rear passenger space is 7 Li. Remarkably comfortable for tall boys.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You're right, I didn't pay $800/month, I paid $34,000 cash w/ tax for my '04, back in '05.

So yeah, I think I could afford your $530/month lease payment, if I wanted to go that way.
Whether you can afford it or not is immaterial.

The fact that you choose not to afford it is.

You are driving a car that costs $277 a month, so your perspective would be of most value in a Kia or Hyundai forum. Over there, you can make the case that instead of driving brand new econoboxes, they could be driving an old luxury car, something that might be appealing to them.

Over here, your offering us the alternative that we've worked our whole lives to avoid.

BJ
dolfan13 commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:50 am

I think its funny that in many parts of the world BMWs are cop cars and cabs.How do you think they perceive BMWs?I like working on German cars as their put together in the most engineering efficient ways.Talking about a BMW out of warranty on this forums is rather amusing to me.Very easy ,don't go to the dealer for anything.Find a Indy mech that speaks English as his first language.Search the Interweb and attain some knowledge about your vehicle.There are other BMW forums with almost no one leasing ,and most own older bimmers.
CALWATERBOY commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not only has BMW nurtured the perception of "luxury" since 1985, they've finally branded their cars that way. I've got a "luxury" line with a "premium" package and drive in something called "comfort" mode. The 3 Series has changed, sorry, not some faux racecar anymore.

What General Motors accomplished 50 years back's not lost on Germans. Form bare bones lux t'whistles & bells, the BMW philosophy gotcha covered.

Except sport. Only M3 is a performance ride - but German marques have severely watered down versions optioned at rewarding profit for poseurs and those who no wanna pay the vig for real M.

Dang. When's that nextgen M3 gonna drop the final veil? Ya'll need parts.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxComb View Post
What kind of car should I have bought if I paid 30k cash for a CPO 3 series?
Assuming you bought your 2008 in 2012, that $30,000 over 6 years translates to a $420 a month lease payment.

So for the same money that's the next 6 years of your life leasing a brand new 135i (currently $380/mo) or a 335i (currently $399/mo) or an X3 (currently $429/mo).

In 2018 you will own a 10 year old 3 Series worth $3,500. Your out-of-pocket spend on out-of-warranty repairs will likely be $2,000. You will have $1,500 equity in your car.

In 2018 you would have been about to take delivery of your 3rd brand new BMW on lease. Your out-of-warranty repairs will be $0. You will have $0 equity in your car.

For the sake of $1,500 or $19 a month, you could have been driving 3 new BMW's instead of 1 old one. And if your used BMW needs more than the estimated $2,000 in out-of-warranty repairs, the entire process was a waste of time because you simply put yourself in a used car instead of 3 new ones for nothing, might have even saved you money.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post

The F30 is a luxury car if you don't think it is you do not know the definition of a luxury product.

"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
So, is this the new BMW montra then?

3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan

7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan
There's nothing "new" about BMW's mantra.

3 Series = Smaller Luxury Sedan

5 Series = Luxury Sedan

7 Series = Large Luxury Sedan

Same product. Small, Medium, Large. Just like underwear.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:05 am

BentZero Not sure how this turned into a lease versus buy debate. I may be an anomaly, but I don't keep my cars for 10 years so I can "get into a car I can't afford". That's just a weird statement. Do you imagine that I'm eating ramen noodles the first 5 years until the car is paid off? I find a car I'm going to love and drive it. If I don't love it I'll get rid of it when the honeymoon is over. BTW, the dude that is churning through cars over the same 10 year period has gone through $150,000 worth of cars. Nothing wrong with that either. To each his own.

This turned into a lease vs. buy debate because you asked for advice and the answer is: "you should be leasing". You can lease an F30 for as low as $339 a month. That's less money than your electric bill + cellphone bill in all likelihood.

The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.

That's good to know, but in the end you are going to have to choose to spend $600 a month for either a used car that's depreciating or 3 new cars that never depreciate. If you don't plan on keeping it for more than 7 years, don't buy.

Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.

As has been discussed, BMW reliability is a 50/50 proposition but with the influx of new technologies all over the car the prospect of owning one in 2018 with no warranty would be a frightening proposition to most of us.

No one is accusing you of being irresponsible. However, one has to ask oneself:

If you can be in 3 brand new Honda's for significantly less money with significantly more reliability and significantly more features, is it prudent to consider a BMW?

In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3 years. Buying one of lesser cost deprives you of some great features and keeping it out of warranty is a big risk. It's just not the same type of situation as you are used to with Japanese cars which are more reliable and can last a decade with little worry.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Whether you can afford it or not is immaterial.

The fact that you choose not to afford it is.

You are driving a car that costs $277 a month, so your perspective would be of most value in a Kia or Hyundai forum. Over there, you can make the case that instead of driving brand new econoboxes, they could be driving an old luxury car, something that might be appealing to them.

Over here, your offering us the alternative that we've worked our whole lives to avoid.

BJ
Your point is retarded, like most of your points. Stick to what you know, cruising Walmart to impress the locals.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I wasn't referring to the relevance of the bodystyle, rather that BMW builds its cars for a buyer who gets bored every 3 years, builds its programs and financial models along those lines.

BMW is selling $50,000 German luxury cars, is expecting a $599 payment every month for their products, is anticipating a buyer to re-up in 3 years for a newer version. So when someone buys one, keeps it 2x or 3x that expected lifespan it's not the intention of the vehicle. There's nothing wrong with that practice for the 5% of the population that will do that, but it's not real-world and it's not a discussion point that matters to the 95% that never keeps a car that long, especially one that has a connotation of a luxury status symbol.

BJ
This statement should definitely be included in your top 10 list.

This way of thinking may have been true to some extent before the Great Recession when people seemed to change cars nearly as often as their cell phones during the live for today "Disposable Period". But, buyer mentality has shifted. People are now looking for perceived long term quality and value before they plop down their hard earned money. This mindset will spread as health insurance premiums and out-of-pocket deductibles baloon, existing taxes and newly created taxes dramatically increase, inflation rears it's ugly head, and real incomes continue to flatten or shrink.

My dealer's answer that more people now buy their cars as opposed to lease bears this out. Buyers buy their cars now when they are flush, so they have a decent ride during good times and bad. People that have the monthly leases (most lease terms I imagine are well beyond 36 months) have to make those payments every month, and have to project that they are going to be able to afford those payments throughout the terms of that lease. If they find themselves strapped at times, what options do they have for their next car when the lease expires, and they have zero equity due to leasing/renting their car?

I was around when car leasing began. It was a great option for business owners who could write off 100% of the lease as a business expense. For those who could not write off the lease payments, people leased because they could afford more car than they would by taking out a loan. Now, and according to my dealer when I asked why fewer people are leasing, he said: many people can no longer qualify because of their lacking credit scores; because people are not earning much through their investments, people like to see their money - like seeing the car parked in their driveway. They own it and it makes them feel good and safe. He also said that this is a typical response that he has seen several times during economic downturns.

Also since the "Great Recession", he said that BMW has been backing off from propping up the residual values on leases. They got slammed in '08 when a ton of leases expired and the car values plummeted. He said that Mercedes is actively propping up their residuals to around 70% in some cases, and that they too will get slammed down the road. (may be a good time to lease a Mercedes for a value play?)

I also found out that the dealer's revenue model is now much more dependent on their service department than it has ever been in years past.

To BJ, you really should find a car that will keep your interest for more than 2 years.
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Assuming you bought your 2008 in 2012, that $30,000 over 6 years translates to a $420 a month lease payment.

So for the same money that's the next 6 years of your life leasing a brand new 135i (currently $380/mo) or a 335i (currently $399/mo) or an X3 (currently $429/mo).

In 2018 you will own a 10 year old 3 Series worth $3,500. Your out-of-pocket spend on out-of-warranty repairs will likely be $2,000. You will have $1,500 equity in your car.

In 2018 you would have been about to take delivery of your 3rd brand new BMW on lease. Your out-of-warranty repairs will be $0. You will have $0 equity in your car.

For the sake of $1,500 or $19 a month, you could have been driving 3 new BMW's instead of 1 old one. And if your used BMW needs more than the estimated $2,000 in out-of-warranty repairs, the entire process was a waste of time because you simply put yourself in a used car instead of 3 new ones for nothing, might have even saved you money.

BJ
Please spare us your ridiculous math. Where you ignore lease downpayments, your buyer pays sticker and drives 18k miles/year while leaser gets a huge insider discount and drives 10k miles/year, and your trade-in values are pulled out of your arse.

Your snide comments are entertaining, but your math sucks, so stick to the former.
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BentZero Not sure how this turned into a lease versus buy debate. I may be an anomaly, but I don't keep my cars for 10 years so I can "get into a car I can't afford". That's just a weird statement. Do you imagine that I'm eating ramen noodles the first 5 years until the car is paid off? I find a car I'm going to love and drive it. If I don't love it I'll get rid of it when the honeymoon is over. BTW, the dude that is churning through cars over the same 10 year period has gone through $150,000 worth of cars. Nothing wrong with that either. To each his own.

This turned into a lease vs. buy debate because you asked for advice and the answer is: "you should be leasing". You can lease an F30 for as low as $339 a month. That's less money than your electric bill + cellphone bill in all likelihood.

The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.

That's good to know, but in the end you are going to have to choose to spend $600 a month for either a used car that's depreciating or 3 new cars that never depreciate. If you don't plan on keeping it for more than 7 years, don't buy.

Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.

As has been discussed, BMW reliability is a 50/50 proposition but with the influx of new technologies all over the car the prospect of owning one in 2018 with no warranty would be a frightening proposition to most of us.

No one is accusing you of being irresponsible. However, one has to ask oneself:

If you can be in 3 brand new Honda's for significantly less money with significantly more reliability and significantly more features, is it prudent to consider a BMW?

In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3 years. Buying one of lesser cost deprives you of some great features and keeping it out of warranty is a big risk. It's just not the same type of situation as you are used to with Japanese cars which are more reliable and can last a decade with little worry.

BJ
To the OP, if you have any sense in your head, don't listen to this clown.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:50 am

Cars are put into categories, I always found that the 3 series was lopped into ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY CAR. Calling it a SPORTS SEDAN is a further and unnecessary further means of separating. But all the competing cars do the same thing-you can option them to take more the SPORT side or the LUX side. But in the end, it's the same grouping-ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY.
chris328 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
I think its funny that in many parts of the world BMWs are cop cars and cabs.How do you think they perceive BMWs?
Funny, I thought that was the case for Mercedes. I always see european mercedes taxi cabs, and even over here in the states we have mercedes UPS trucks.

As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.

I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
Funny, I thought that was the case for Mercedes. I always see european mercedes taxi cabs, and even over here in the states we have mercedes UPS trucks.

As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.

I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
I didn't know they drove BMWs? I always thought they drove Rolls Royces and Jaguars with a few Land Rovers thrown in..
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:58 am

Prince Charles as a logn time Aston Martin driver.

chris328 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:10 am

well back when I watched the royal wedding it seemed they all pulled out of the palace in 7 series and range rovers. but looking it up I am reading that "Audi, in fact, has supplied the British Royal Family with numerous vehicles" which is probably the only reason they drive them, along with every other celebrity that audi gives it cars to, in the hopes of convincing everyone that watches mainstream news.

also quite amusing is the story of prince william who drove Princess Kate out of their wedding with that Aston Martin and never even released the handbrake (well, at least one of the underlings forgot to tell him to release it )
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Prince Charles as a logn time Aston Martin driver.

I think I remember Prince William drove this car when leaving for their honeymoon.
chris328 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:13 am

http://www.inautonews.com/royal-wedd...h-handbrake-on
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
Ouch!
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

Your point is retarded, like most of your points. Stick to what you know, cruising Walmart to impress the locals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

Your snide comments are entertaining, but your math sucks, so stick to the former.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

To the OP, if you have any sense in your head, don't listen to this clown.
If you want to debate the point, fine, but personal attacks are not warranted.

As stated numerous times, the reason that what many of us are saying seems blasphemous to you is because you are in the 5% minority that buys German luxury status-symbols and decides to keep them for 10 years.

This is the F30 forum. We talk brand new $50,000 cars here. You own a car that's two-generations old with no interest in buying a new one. Besides instigating owners of brand new cars, you have no purpose here.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
This statement should definitely be included in your top 10 list.

This way of thinking may have been true to some extent before the Great Recession when people seemed to change cars nearly as often as their cell phones during the live for today "Disposable Period". But, buyer mentality has shifted. People are now looking for perceived long term quality and value before they plop down their hard earned money. This mindset will spread as health insurance premiums and out-of-pocket deductibles baloon, existing taxes and newly created taxes dramatically increase, inflation rears it's ugly head, and real incomes continue to flatten or shrink.

To BJ, you really should find a car that will keep your interest for more than 2 years.
If you're talking about the 3 Series buyer who gets a $36,000 stripper I'd see your point.

No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.

So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:

1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.

You and I are #6. We aren't "people".

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
Funny, I thought that was the case for Mercedes. I always see european mercedes taxi cabs, and even over here in the states we have mercedes UPS trucks.

As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.

I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
A Buick is a luxury car in Shanghai.

We live in America, so the only thing that's relevant here is how BMW is perceived here. I've been driven in Mercedes E Class taxi's in Germany, it doesn't mean that an E Class in the United States is equivalent to a $19,000 Ford.

BJ
av98 commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
If you're talking about the 3 Series buyer who gets a $36,000 stripper I'd see your point.

No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.

So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:

1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.

You and I are #6. We aren't "people".

BJ
Man into a compromise sporty car: Needed an auto that was as sporty as his previous manual cars and needed a family hauler with 3 kids (twins on the younger ones). Yes, I can afford a brand new car with my extra cars but would rather have lots of cars than 1 spanking shiny new lease/purchase. Plus there's nothing like DIY on your own cars and learning the new technology or just about the car itself.

Just curious BJ, how many cars do you own if you are so wealthy? Most of the wealthy car people I know from my dad's banker friends all own new and old cars and none of them ever lease because they don't like to waste money on interest. Most keep a stable of classic cars as they appreciate instead of depreciate as collectible cars- Porsche 911 Turbo (930 chassis), Ferrari F40/F50, Lotus Exige S, C2/C3 Corvettes, Early model BOSS Mustangs, etc

Weren't leases originally designed for companies that leased large fleets of cars then used them for tax write offs?
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
If you're talking about the 3 Series buyer who gets a $36,000 stripper I'd see your point.

No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.

So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:

1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.

You and I are #6. We aren't "people".

BJ
True, but we make up a very small percentage of 3 Series buyers. I believe that more people than not are stretching to buy any BMW, and to them, they really need to be careful about projecting their sustained earnings and budgets.
elistan commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
My wife and I are in a similar situation - 13 year old S2000, 10 year old S2000, and 9 year old Tacoma. We get attached to and keep our cars for a long time, appreciate their reliability, and primarily place the higest value on driving dynamics. For various reasons, we started shopping for comfortable sedans. We liked the 328i's combination of pwer, RWD and comfort the best, so we got one. (A very close second was the Mitsubishi Lancer. Have you driven one? You mentioned you like turbo engines, so you should give it a look.) Various friends of ours have owned BMWs - some said never own one outside of warranty, others still have theirs with 150k+ miles. The wife and I figure it might be a crap shoot for us - we're crossing our fingers that the 328i holds up over 10+ years. If it turns into a money pit, well, lesson learned and we'll look elsewhere next time for our comfy sedan needs.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
My wife and I are in a similar situation - 13 year old S2000, 10 year old S2000, and 9 year old Tacoma. We get attached to and keep our cars for a long time, appreciate their reliability, and primarily place the higest value on driving dynamics. For various reasons, we started shopping for comfortable sedans. We liked the 328i's combination of pwer, RWD and comfort the best, so we got one. (A very close second was the Mitsubishi Lancer. Have you driven one? You mentioned you like turbo engines, so you should give it a look.) Various friends of ours have owned BMWs - some said never own one outside of warranty, others still have theirs with 150k+ miles. The wife and I figure it might be a crap shoot for us - we're crossing our fingers that the 328i holds up over 10+ years. If it turns into a money pit, well, lesson learned and we'll look elsewhere next time for our comfy sedan needs.
The key to long term car ownership is proper maintenance.
madurodave commented:
December 14, 2012, 12:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The key to long term car ownership is proper maintenance.
Definitely!
Bob Shiftright commented:
December 14, 2012, 12:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave.
--> No, there's no reason at all to change the way they behave!

With the U6 unemployment rate 14.4% and unlikely to improve much any time soon, "Let 'em eat truffles"!
dolfan13 commented:
December 14, 2012, 1:36 pm

Who said something about only M cars?What a goof ball,must be under 40 or probably under 30.M series didn't even come around until 1983 M6 except for the M1(not this new little thing).My family had 7 BMWs before 1983 and were considered great SPORTS sedans.
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
If you want to debate the point, fine, but personal attacks are not warranted.

As stated numerous times, the reason that what many of us are saying seems blasphemous to you is because you are in the 5% minority that buys German luxury status-symbols and decides to keep them for 10 years.

This is the F30 forum. We talk brand new $50,000 cars here. You own a car that's two-generations old with no interest in buying a new one. Besides instigating owners of brand new cars, you have no purpose here.

BJ
This thread is about owning out of warranty BMWs, a subject of which you're completely ignorant. Why are you even trolling in this thread?
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Just curious BJ, how many cars do you own if you are so wealthy? Most of the wealthy car people I know from my dad's banker friends all own new and old cars and none of them ever lease because they don't like to waste money on interest. Most keep a stable of classic cars as they appreciate instead of depreciate as collectible cars- Porsche 911 Turbo (930 chassis), Ferrari F40/F50, Lotus Exige S, C2/C3 Corvettes, Early model BOSS Mustangs, etc
He has a high income. Not the same as high wealth. And the people you're talking about are car lovers, not badge hounds.
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
True, but we make up a very small percentage of 3 Series buyers. I believe that more people than not are stretching to buy any BMW, and to them, they really need to be careful about projecting their sustained earnings and budgets.
What was the stated median income of 3 series buyers, $180k or something? Doesn't seem like people are stretching, if that's AGI for individuals.

Of course it's wealth more than income that matters. And I suspect those income numbers are bogus too, a way of attracting more buyers: "Drive a 3 series, you'll be part of the top 5%!"
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
What was the stated median income of 3 series buyers, $180k or something? Doesn't seem like people are stretching, if that's AGI for individuals.

Of course it's wealth more than income that matters. And I suspect those income numbers are bogus too, a way of attracting more buyers: "Drive a 3 series, you'll be part of the top 5%!"
The $180,000 is for all BMW buyers not 3 Series buyers. It is also household income not individual income. The only statistic I could find was from 2007 and was that the median household income of an E90 buyer was $102,000. At that point the average price of a new car was $28,000. As of April 2012 the average price of a new car was $30,750.00. A BMW 328i has a base price of $36,500 so that means that even the least expensive BMW is going to be more expensive than the average new car. The 3 Series is BMWs volume seller and I would suspect that most 3 Series that are sold are in the $40,000 to $50,000 range.
Lorenzzo commented:
December 14, 2012, 3:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Agreed, but buying a car might be easier up-front but is a PITA later on when its time to sell.

As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.

BJ
I kind of enjoy horsetrading. If in an instance I'm not into it I'll let the dealer make $500-1,000 or so which he'll gladly do if I'm buying a new vehicle.

I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I kind of enjoy horsetrading. If in an instance I'm not into it I'll let the dealer make $500-1,000 or so which he'll gladly do if I'm buying a new vehicle.

I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
When you lease you are paying for the depreciation of the car so of course you are paying for depreciation. That is also the reason why some cars that cost more to buy cost less to lease. If a leased car did not depreciate, in other words if it was worth as much at the end of the lease as it was at the beginning of the lease the monthly payments would be very low (and perhaps nothing). Depreciation on a lease is also the reason why the monthy payments on a longer term lease can be more than the payments on a shorter term lease.

CA
Lorenzzo commented:
December 14, 2012, 3:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Agreed, but buying a car might be easier up-front but is a PITA later on when its time to sell.

As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.

BJ
I kind of enjoy horsetrading. If in an instance I'm not into it I'll let the dealer make $500-1,000 or so which he'll gladly do if I'm buying a new vehicle.

I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
EddieB commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
when you lease you are paying for the depreciation of the car so of course you are paying for depreciation. That is also the reason why some cars that cost more to buy cost less to lease.

Ca
+1
elistan commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The key to long term car ownership is proper maintenance.
Which is why BMW's 15k mile oil change interval makes me nervous... All my car-owning life, that hasn't been "proper."
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Which is why BMW's 15k mile oil change interval makes me nervous... All my car-owning life, that hasn't been "proper."
I'm old school and change my oil at the first 1,500 mile mark and then every 3-4,000 miles thereafter. I also follow the break-in guidelines.
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The $180,000 is for all BMW buyers not 3 Series buyers. It is also household income not individual income. The only statistic I could find was from 2007 and was that the median household income of an E90 buyer was $102,000. At that point the average price of a new car was $28,000. As of April 2012 the average price of a new car was $30,750.00. A BMW 328i has a base price of $36,500 so that means that even the least expensive BMW is going to be more expensive than the average new car. The 3 Series is BMWs volume seller and I would suspect that most 3 Series that are sold are in the $40,000 to $50,000 range.
Ok, thanks, I was wondering about that figure.

Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Ok, thanks, I was wondering about that figure.

Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
I'd like to know how they come up with average incomes anyway. I would think that most people lie when asked?
ChrisF01 commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

Thank you. Perfectly stated.

BMW's are luxury cars first, performance cars a distant second. Personally, I'm happy they are both because that's why I drive them.

BJ
I strongly disagree.

BMW still leads the pack as far as performance in the F30 vs the A4/C Class. I'd rather have a F30 over any of its' rivals. I drove a stripper loaner and was enamored how quick and agile it feels.

The Luxury line is a package, its like the Limited trim on a Ford Taurus. Adds some exterior differences, some (not all) interior materials are upgraded. But don't think for a minute you're driving a car designed from the beginning to be a luxury car. It's a great great sports sedan, luxury sedan no. Want a luxury sedan? Get a F10 Individual.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Ok, thanks, I was wondering about that figure.

Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
That tends to hold true as cars get more expensive. The average Bentley, Ferrari or Aston Martin owner spends a smaller percentage of yearly income on the car than the average BMW 3 Series owner or the average Camry owner for that matter. According to USA Today the average Bentley owner is a 52-year-old man (98% of Bentley owners are men) with an annual household income of $15 million to $18 million.

CA
chris328 commented:
December 14, 2012, 4:53 pm

median household income is 40k? what is this 1980? i thought people in the assembly line at the ford plants make 75k
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 14, 2012, 6:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
median household income is 40k? what is this 1980? i thought people in the assembly line at the ford plants make 75k
I think the actual mean is 57k in the most recent census.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 6:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
That tends to hold true as cars get more expensive. The average Bentley, Ferrari or Aston Martin owner spends a smaller percentage of yearly income on the car than the average BMW 3 Series owner or the average Camry owner for that matter. According to USA Today the average Bentley owner is a 52-year-old man (98% of Bentley owners are men) with an annual household income of $15 million to $18 million.

CA
With that kind of reported average income for Bentley owners, I have to spend more time being nice to two of my neighbors in FL who drive Bentleys.

All that huge household income number tells me is that Bentley owners are bigger liars than BMW owners about their incomes. When asked about incomes for surveys and even car loan/lease credit apps, you can tell them whatever you want because they don't check it anyway. They just check your credit scores.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 6:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
With that kind of reported average income for Bentley owners, I have to spend more time being nice to two of my neighbors in FL who drive Bentleys.

All that huge household income number tells me is that Bentley owners are bigger liars than BMW owners about their incomes. When asked about incomes for surveys and even car loan/lease credit apps, you can tell them whatever you want because they don't check it anyway. They just check your credit scores.
After a little more research I think that the person who wrote the article in USA today was getting net worth confused with annual income. Based on the Bentley owners that I know that is very likely an accurate figure. According to Bentley the median household income of a Bentley owner is about $800,000.

http://www.fms.co.uk/mediapacks/Bent...-Pack-2010.pdf



CA
Chris90 commented:
December 14, 2012, 6:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
I think the actual mean is 57k in the most recent census.
Median (not mean) income was $50k in 2011:

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea.../cb12-172.html
Buildbright commented:
December 14, 2012, 7:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1naztyx5 View Post
lmao!!!! no offense but you must be short for someone 6'2" to find the rear seat comfortable, just had a loner for a week and i have to say unless you are a toddler or toddler hight, there is no leg room back there.

this car made me love my X5 more and more
Are you sure your not a fatty?
raleedy commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Are you sure your not a fatty?
What the heck do you do with a loner for a week?
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 8:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
After a little more research I think that the person who wrote the article in USA today was getting net worth confused with annual income. Based on the Bentley owners that I know that is very likely an accurate figure. According to Bentley the median household income of a Bentley owner is about $800,000.

http://www.fms.co.uk/mediapacks/Bent...-Pack-2010.pdf



CA
Still...I'm wondering how they verify the numbers? Call me skeptical, but I just don't take everything I read at face value.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Still...I'm wondering how they verify the numbers? Call me skeptical, but I just don't take everything I read at face value.
Bentley probably gets their from statistics the same place we get them here at Bimmerfest. From BoltjaM3s.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
This thread is about owning out of warranty BMWs, a subject of which you're completely ignorant.
No, the thread is about advice on whether an out of warranty 2013 BMW is a good idea, specifically the F30 which is a brand new, thoroughly modern German luxury car, something you have no experience with.

If the OP was asking about whether buying an already out of warranty, 9 year old, two-bodystyles-ago E46, you'd be perfect to answer the question. Speaking of the E46, doesn't it have its very own subforum where you should be instead of trolling here? I can answer that question for you, if you like.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post

Just curious BJ, how many cars do you own if you are so wealthy? Most of the wealthy car people I know from my dad's banker friends all own new and old cars and none of them ever lease because they don't like to waste money on interest. Most keep a stable of classic cars as they appreciate instead of depreciate as collectible cars- Porsche 911 Turbo (930 chassis), Ferrari F40/F50, Lotus Exige S, C2/C3 Corvettes, Early model BOSS Mustangs, etc

Weren't leases originally designed for companies that leased large fleets of cars then used them for tax write offs?
I own two cars for now, soon to be three when my oldest son turns 17 and will need his own wheels. Probably will get him some crappy old 2004 E46, some junky old thing for him to cut his teeth.

My wife and I are fortunate to have been making good salaries for decades, lived a very affordable lifestyle in New England before relocating back down to the NYC area. We did not grow up with significant wealth so we're used to driving a certain class of vehicle, both our families had BMW's long before we were married, we like them now. While we fit the financial demographic of the Bentley owner, it's not us and never will be. We save that extra $2000 a month and put it somewhere useful, like our kids educations, summer homes, and an early retirement.

Not sure what leasing was originally intended to be in the early 80's, but we know what they are now- a slightly-more expensive alternative to buying and one that is perfect for those who get bored with a car after 2 years.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post

I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
Again, I view it through a far more simplistic lens:

The wife and I have decided that $1,200 a month is our budget for our cars, so we (I) go out and get as much car as we (I) can for that monthly outlay. We've got a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite for $650 and a 2013 BMW 328i for $549 that suits our needs perfectly at this time.

I've got a cable bill. It's for something that's recreational yet necessary. It "depreciates" immediately because it has no residual value at all, the only value coming from the experience it brings. Same for my gas bill, my electric bill, my internet bill, my cellphone bill, and my BMW bill.

These other utilities are not 'investments'. They have no 'depreciation'. They are just expenditures. Same for your car. You don't need to overthink this.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 9:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post

When you lease you are paying for the depreciation of the car so of course you are paying for depreciation.

CA
No, I'm not.

The cost of 30 days of gas/electricity where I live in the month of December is $680.

The cost of 30 days of a $50,000 BMW 3 Series where I live in the month of December is $539.

If the gas/electricity has a "real" cost of $300 and I'm paying $380 for assorted bits of infrastructure and taxes and palm greasing it's of no consequence to me; I either pay $680 or I have no power. Simple. Same for the car. Whatever voodoo finance goes into that $539 is of no consequence to me; I either pay $539 or I have no new BMW. Simple.

I am paying the "going rate" for these two utilities; nothing is depreciating because neither is an investment, neither is owned. They just exist as typical monthly expenditures for necessary functions.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
I strongly disagree.

BMW still leads the pack as far as performance in the F30 vs the A4/C Class. I'd rather have a F30 over any of its' rivals. I drove a stripper loaner and was enamored how quick and agile it feels.

The Luxury line is a package, its like the Limited trim on a Ford Taurus. Adds some exterior differences, some (not all) interior materials are upgraded. But don't think for a minute you're driving a car designed from the beginning to be a luxury car. It's a great great sports sedan, luxury sedan no. Want a luxury sedan? Get a F10 Individual.


Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.

The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.

BJ
JoeFromPA commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
While we fit the financial demographic of the Bentley owner...
BJ
Not based upon what you have shared
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Not based upon what you have shared
Based on the average family income quoted for Bentley owners, I doubt many of them are doing any budgeting whatsoever.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Based on the average family income quoted for Bentley owners, I doubt many of them are doing any budgeting whatsoever.
I know a number of Bentey owners including several that own more than one Bentley. They tend to own several cars and I don't think that they are concerned about putting money towards a summer home or the children's education since those are things that are not a financial issue for them. For the most part they paid cash for the Bentley and have other cars that they lease through their businesses. My nephew drives a Bentley Flying Spur and the maintenance is insane. He curbed rashed two rims and they were $3,000 each to replace. A replacement rear bumper was $9,000.

boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Not based upon what you have shared
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Based on the average family income quoted for Bentley owners, I doubt many of them are doing any budgeting whatsoever.


I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.

I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.

http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I know a number of Bentey owners including several that own more than one Bentley. They tend to own several cars and I don't think that they are concerned about putting money towards a summer home or the children's education. For the most part they paid cash for the Bentley and have other cars that they lease through their businesses. My nephew drives a Bentley Flying Spur and the maintenance is insane. He curbed rashed two rims and they were $3,000 each to replace. A replacement rear bumper was $9,000.

I love Bentleys (although I prefer the older generations that looked to have more quality workmanship), but I would feel uncomfortable driving such a high end status symbol. One of my neighbors got one shortly after he was diagnosed with cancer, and the other one is in his 80's and got one because he figured he wasn't getting any younger. Both got the same dark blue color and one is a cabriolet. I enjoy seeing them behind the wheel because they always have smiles on their faces as they drive by.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.

I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.

http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/

BJ
5,000 miles/year and a $10,000 down payment.

CA
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
5,000 miles/year and a $10,000 down payment.

CA
I would think it better to buy a clean used Bentley with low mileage after the original owner took the lion share of the depreciation hit.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.

I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.

http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/

BJ
Just busting your chops BJ. Better to get your kids through college and out on their own before getting into something like a Bentley. I waited until my kids were settled after college before I bought some nice toys.
ChrisF01 commented:
December 14, 2012, 10:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.

The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.

BJ
You're incorrect. Because it has a brand tax does not mean its a luxury brand. Refer to Porsche, their infamous 20k tax doesn't make their 911 or Boxter a luxury car. Have you sat in a new-911 lately? Luxury is not a term that comes to mind.

The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.

Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're nave enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
captainaudio commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.

I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.

http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/

BJ

BJ,

Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.

Glad I don't have kids.

CA
1naztyx5 commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Are you sure your not a fatty?
Oh we are talking about weight now? I thought we were talking about hight? weight would affect comfort side ways ... you are driving around in a 3 series with 6'2" passengers in the rear saying they are "comfortable" soo you must be a very petite individual on weight and hight then...but to answer your question I am 6'3" 300 pounds...probably giant territory for you.
beden1 commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
You're incorrect. Because it has a brand tax does not mean its a luxury brand. Refer to Porsche, their infamous 20k tax doesn't make their 911 or Boxter a luxury car. Have you sat in a new-911 lately? Luxury is not a term that comes to mind.

The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.

Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're nave enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
They are both sports cars. Highly capable in performance, but I would not classify as luxury automobiles. I do find much in the way of quality, however.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post

Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're nave enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
I'm being challenged and I'm defending myself. That said, if you think your 7 Series makes you look humble...

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BJ,

Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.

Glad I don't have kids.

CA
That includes the checks we write to ourselves for investments, retirement accounts, education, etc.

BJ
EddieB commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.

The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.

BJ
Wow, didn't know BMW put that on the door sill. More embarrassing than the M logo on the M-Sport.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
You're incorrect. Because it has a brand tax does not mean its a luxury brand. Refer to Porsche, their infamous 20k tax doesn't make their 911 or Boxter a luxury car. Have you sat in a new-911 lately? Luxury is not a term that comes to mind.

The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.

Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're nave enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
He isn't discussing his finances. He is simply stating that we all, the people who frequent this forum, are not "average" Americans. We all make way more money. And some makes hand over fist more than that. It doesn't define who we are but the discussion will always be skewed to the wrong direction of normal. A normal person does not lease a bimmer every three years. A normal person doesn't pay cash on a 50k car. No matter how long they own it after. You should not buy a bimmer or own one out of warranty unless 20 dollar bills are used as Kleenex.
EddieB commented:
December 14, 2012, 11:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
You should not buy a bimmer or own one out of warranty unless 20 dollar bills are used as Kleenex.
Well if my nose were dripping
Buildbright commented:
December 15, 2012, 12:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1naztyx5 View Post
Oh we are talking about weight now? I thought we were talking about hight? weight would affect comfort side ways ... you are driving around in a 3 series with 6'2" passengers in the rear saying they are "comfortable" soo you must be a very petite individual on weight and hight then...but to answer your question I am 6'3" 300 pounds...probably giant territory for you.
No I am fatty like you but shorter at only 5'11". Luckly I don't ride in backseat but really doubt the one inch your taller you are over my friend makes that much of a difference. If you don't agree it's ok because you don't own one.
Buildbright commented:
December 15, 2012, 12:30 am

Ok STOP! We can measure wallet penises another time. Back to No Warrenty Money Pit BMW's.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 1:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BJ,

Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.
He probably means 4% of his net income.
LarryboysUDM commented:
December 15, 2012, 1:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, I'm not.

The cost of 30 days of gas/electricity where I live in the month of December is $680.

The cost of 30 days of a $50,000 BMW 3 Series where I live in the month of December is $539.

If the gas/electricity has a "real" cost of $300 and I'm paying $380 for assorted bits of infrastructure and taxes and palm greasing it's of no consequence to me; I either pay $680 or I have no power. Simple. Same for the car. Whatever voodoo finance goes into that $539 is of no consequence to me; I either pay $539 or I have no new BMW. Simple.

I am paying the "going rate" for these two utilities; nothing is depreciating because neither is an investment, neither is owned. They just exist as typical monthly expenditures for necessary functions.

BJ
Whether we lease, buy, buy extended warranty or not, we always pay for the opportunity to drive a BMW and go to wherever we want to go until we don't wan't to pay for it anymore.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:01 am

Here is my take on the luxury part.

In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still means luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?

Now in Europe, BMW is considered a premium brand. But realize that the 316 comes with a 136HP engine, steel wheels with hub caps, velour seats, etc., hardly a luxury configuration. The 316d comes with a 116Hp monster. About 10 years ago, the 316 came with roll up windows and a 0-60mph time of about 13-14secs. You get the idea.

In the US, VW is considered a cheap brand, which is why the Phaeton didn't sell well. But the Phaeton is a true luxury car, with a 12-cyl engine, incredible massaging leather seats, beautiful woodwork, etc. It seems like individual models matter a little more than brands over there.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3 years.
Is it? When it is sold with 116Hp engines, velour seats, steelies with hub caps, was it really meant to be a $50K car? We get the highest end engines in the US, and even though we also get plastic seats and such, overall these cars are well equipped over their base configuration. Are we getting nicely dressed up average cars or are Europeans getting $50K-caliber stripped down cars?
Lorenzzo commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Again, I view it through a far more simplistic lens:

The wife and I have decided that $1,200 a month is our budget for our cars, so we (I) go out and get as much car as we (I) can for that monthly outlay. We've got a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite for $650 and a 2013 BMW 328i for $549 that suits our needs perfectly at this time.

I've got a cable bill. It's for something that's recreational yet necessary. It "depreciates" immediately because it has no residual value at all, the only value coming from the experience it brings. Same for my gas bill, my electric bill, my internet bill, my cellphone bill, and my BMW bill.

These other utilities are not 'investments'. They have no 'depreciation'. They are just expenditures. Same for your car. You don't need to overthink this.

BJ
Ok, so you're just messing. Got it.
ChrisF01 commented:
December 15, 2012, 4:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
They are both sports cars. Highly capable in performance, but I would not classify as luxury automobiles. I do find much in the way of quality, however.
Yea, I'm not knocking Porsche by any means... they're a bit overpriced, but utterly fantastic performance cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm being challenged and I'm defending myself. That said, if you think your 7 Series makes you look humble...

BJ
I'm not the one bragging about my financial situation on an online forum

I debadged my car, and when people ask, tell them its a 5er. You're the one pointing out you're driving a "Luxury[trim]" 3...

Humble you say?
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 9:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Wow, didn't know BMW put that on the door sill. More embarrassing than the M logo on the M-Sport.
That's not embarrassing; that's BMW's way of making their intentions very clear.

In case you didn't get the hint, the F30 is larger, longer, wider, softer, defaults its transmission to Comfort mode, offers most of the Premium package as standard equipment, and has a Luxury line as its best selling variation.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 9:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
He isn't discussing his finances. He is simply stating that we all, the people who frequent this forum, are not "average" Americans. We all make way more money. And some makes hand over fist more than that. It doesn't define who we are but the discussion will always be skewed to the wrong direction of normal. A normal person does not lease a bimmer every three years. A normal person doesn't pay cash on a 50k car. No matter how long they own it after.
+1

And the other extreme of not-normal is someone who purchases a 3 Series to keep for more than 10 years. Conversation like this, advice like this, it should be focused on the norm which is either a) lease for 3 years or b) buy for 4.

In my circle of friends, I don't know a single one that is driving a 10 year old car nor do I know a single one who purchased a car for $50,000 cash. Those who interject these radical strategies aren't helping.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 9:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is my take on the luxury part.

In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still mean luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?
And here is my take on the Luxury part: The BMW 3 Series is two cars, not one.

$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan

Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.

It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.

When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.

When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.

So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?

The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 15, 2012, 10:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Wow, didn't know BMW put that on the door sill. More embarrassing than the M logo on the M-Sport.
Regarding the M logos on the M-Sport, lemme copy and paste my replies on from the other forum.

"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.

A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."

"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.

The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."

Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
Redrokit8 commented:
December 15, 2012, 10:37 am

I think this is a popular belief due to the complexity of repair and cost of parts. The German cars in general have a rocket science aura around them that they are difficult to fix. I think they are, only until you jump in and learn the systems. The biggest disadvantage we have as owners is we don't have the proper diagnostic tools so readily available to use. Don't forget that you do have a great tool and that's this forum. I am very grateful to see that there is a list of suppliers here that are considered competitively priced.
av98 commented:
December 15, 2012, 10:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrokit8 View Post
I think this is a popular belief due to the complexity of repair and cost of parts. The German cars in general have a rocket science aura around them that they are difficult to fix. I think they are, only until you jump in and learn the systems. The biggest disadvantage we have as owners is we don't have the proper diagnostic tools so readily available to use. Don't forget that you do have a great tool and that's this forum. I am very grateful to see that there is a list of suppliers here that are considered competitively priced.
+1, the knowledge on these boards are invaluable. Great enthusiasts with lots of experience. Btw, most OBD II scanners can diagnose all the SES & CEL codes that your car can throw. A quick search with the codes easily finds threads with solutions to the issues.
av98 commented:
December 15, 2012, 10:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And here is my take on the Luxury part: The BMW 3 Series is two cars, not one.

$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan

Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.

It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.

When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.

When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.

So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?

The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.

BJ
Everybody should take the Germans take on their 3 series, the German equivalent of a Camry or Accord. . They look to the 7 series as their upscale luxury car and the 5 as the luxury car.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 12:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Everybody should take the Germans take on their 3 series, the German equivalent of a Camry or Accord. They look to the 7 series as their upscale luxury car and the 5 as the luxury car.
Everyone should wear a Timex, vacation in the Catskills, and dine at White Castle too.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.
But aren't nearly all cars sold in the US marketed that way?

Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K

It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 15, 2012, 1:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But aren't nearly all cars sold in the US marketed that way?

Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K

It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
I always love seeing Boxster and 911 msrps. You can find $100k Boxsters lol.
EddieB commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Regarding the M logos on the M-Sport, lemme copy and paste my replies on from the other forum.

"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.

A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."

"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.

The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."

Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't know about your M Roadster, but my E46 M3 had so many M3 badges it was almost embarrassing as well. But, BMW made them that way and I didn't add any extra ones. So at the end of the day, much ado about nothing.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't know about your M Roadster, but my E46 M3 had so many M3 badges it was almost embarrassing as well. But, BMW made them that way and I didn't add any extra ones. So at the end of the day, much ado about nothing.
M Roadster is pretty badge heavy too. I am happy to say it has LESS M Badges than it did stock.

There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.

I am not a member of this camp.
EddieB commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post

There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.
I put roundel air stem caps on. Does that count
Saintor commented:
December 15, 2012, 2:56 pm

I aim keeping mine out of warranty up to 7 years, yeah that MUST be easy. I mean; if BMW can't build a car that lasts that long without crazy costs and hassles then it is a POS.

It is just normal to expect some kind of repairs & troubles past 4 years/50K miles. How much is the question. For my last 3 years, I budgeted 1800$/yr or 150$/mo for costs incurred that would have been covered under warranty.

After 28mo out of warranty, I should have spent 4200$, my actual cost is 1327$ so I am 2873$ positive in the bank.

I have to replace the engine head's cover gasket, change brake fluids, change battery.... another 1500$ to spend ... I am still 1000$+ ahead.
Saintor commented:
December 15, 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The key to long term car ownership is proper maintenance.
I don't think so.

Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.

No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.

The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
x3brian commented:
December 15, 2012, 3:39 pm

I'm jumping into the fray and I promise it's not about the size of the penis in my wallet...

BMWs are reliable and I agree with BJ they are designed with multiple consumers in mind and will perform the way that target market wants it to.

Take me for example...

I strongly fall into the higher earner with a family category that expects value out of my BMW and to perform like a Camry AND like a pseudo sports activity vehicle.

I purchase my cars outright because I view long term ownership as the lowest monthly amortized expense over 10 years. Once the car is paid off monthly car expense becomes a reserve account that is significantly lower than a car payment. I have gone both ways paid cash at purchase by saving the monthly payment amount over 10 years or doing payments and then paying myself back for the remaining time for future repairs/car purchase.

My 2009 x3 has 105k miles on it because I drive the snot out of it...my daily commute is 120 miles round trip and I regularly drive down to LA to check in on my staff at that facility.

Am I worried that my car is out of warranty? Nope. As an engineer it is in my blood to over-maintain my car...because I EXPECT 10 years and 300k miles out of it. I fall into the camp that leaking gaskets happen and it is part of normal PM...as a side I haven't yet had any...

Now this is what makes BMW so awesome....

The same car that I paid $50k for will be perfect for someone that buys new ones every 3-4 years...no extra maintenance or worries and no fear of an expensive repair...BJ point of view

OR

For someone with long term goals....the car is built like a tank if you more than double your maintenance schedule a la old school and have no fear of minor inconveniences here and there over 10 years...in return you get a reliable, comfortable, fun, and yes luxurious car. My point of view.

This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I have to replace the engine head's cover gasket, change brake fluids, change battery.... another 1500$ to spend ... I am still 1000$+ ahead.
Are you taking it to the dealer? I think I spent $120 on the head gasket, $120 on the battery, and $70-80 for a brake fluid change, but my car is not a BMW. Say I got a good deal because I am a regular at the shop and you have to pay twice that much. That still shouldn't get close to $1500.
Saintor commented:
December 15, 2012, 4:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Are you taking it to the dealer? I think I spent $120 on the head gasket, $120 on the battery, and $70-80 for a brake fluid change. Say I got a good deal because I am a regular at the shop and you have to pay twice that much. That's still shouldn't get close to $1500.
On the N52, the gasket is a 4-6 hours job if I believe what I read on internet. Tell me where I can get qualified service for 25$/hr.

I did change valve cover gasket (and even timing belts) on other cars but this one looks like *a pain*.

I plan to change the battery myself. I'll have the brake fluid changed at a BMW dealer but I am not decided where to have my engine cover gasket changed. One thing I am sure, it will be at least 500$.
beden1 commented:
December 15, 2012, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I don't think so.

Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.

No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.

The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
Your only controllable as an owner is to properly maintain your car. Given your scenario, replacing head gaskets and coil packs, then add on top a remanufacture of your transmission or major engine issues because you didn't do regular oil and fluid changes, would suck X2.

Mechanical parts break or wear out. That's the nature of the beast. In most cases, proper maintenanace either eliminates problems from occuring or slows down the process. Regular servicing can also reveal potential issues and replace parts before a much more expensive fix may be needed.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 15, 2012, 5:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
On the N52, the gasket is a 4-6 hours job if I believe what I read on internet. Tell me where I can get qualified service for 25$/hr.
Are we talking about the valve cover gasket or the head gasket? Obviously, mine was just the valve cover gasket: remove a bunch bolts of the engine cover, replace the gasket, and put back the cover and tighten all the bolts.

If you are talking about the head gasket, then it is indeed a whole different deal. That is perhaps a lot more than $1,500?

I did search just a little bit on this topic, and it seems that even the cover gasket is a pain to replace for the N52 and that this particular engine is notorious for gasket failures, with bolts breaking off?
x3brian commented:
December 15, 2012, 5:17 pm

On the x3 side of the house I haven't heard of ANY head gasket failures on the n52...but it is common for valve cover and oil filter gaskets needing replacement especially on older models...that is a pm part IMHO.

The head gasket is a different animal but my opinion on that type of failure is due to improper maintenance.....or extreme age. I have had 2 cars in the last 15 years hit 300k miles with no head gasket failure...
namelessman commented:
December 15, 2012, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by x3brian View Post
This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....
I am still waiting for DIY posts where someone tears down and re-assembles the cooling system for the heck of it on a brand new F30.
Saintor commented:
December 15, 2012, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Your only controllable as an owner is to properly maintain your car. Given your scenario, replacing head gaskets and coil packs, then add on top a remanufacture of your transmission or major engine issues because you didn't do regular oil and fluid changes, would suck X2.

Mechanical parts break or wear out. That's the nature of the beast. In most cases, proper maintenanace either eliminates problems from occuring or slows down the process. Regular servicing can also reveal potential issues and replace parts before a much more expensive fix may be needed.
It doesn't change a thing of what I just explained to you. I was not talking about any oil related failure. We are talking about a diligent owner who doesn't neglect his car, which is an extreme.

Quote:
Are we talking about the valve cover gasket or the head gasket? Obviously, mine was just the valve cover gasket: remove a bunch bolts of the engine cover, replace the gasket, and put back the cover and tighten all the bolts.
Yeah but that's still a 3 hours job. My dealer did it on 3/29/2011 as per my work order and that's what they reported (3*129.95$/hr+parts+txs).... I just realized that this job maybe still under their 2 years warranty. Or not, but I'll check.

But thanks for your input, I might be tempted to do it myself if the warranty doesn't apply.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 7:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But aren't nearly all cars sold in the US marketed that way?

Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K

It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
Yes, all cars can be high/low optioned that way, but I think the 3 Series is unique in that regard because a BMW is a status-symbol and you can cheat your way into one practically for Honda money.

A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 15, 2012, 7:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by x3brian View Post

Now this is what makes BMW so awesome....

The same car that I paid $50k for will be perfect for someone that buys new ones every 3-4 years...no extra maintenance or worries and no fear of an expensive repair...BJ point of view

OR

For someone with long term goals....the car is built like a tank if you more than double your maintenance schedule a la old school and have no fear of minor inconveniences here and there over 10 years...in return you get a reliable, comfortable, fun, and yes luxurious car. My point of view.

This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....
+1

Bravo

BJ
Chris90 commented:
December 16, 2012, 8:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
He probably means 4% of his net income.
He takes home $50k/month? $1 million/year pre-tax income? Yeah, right. BJ just pulls numbers out of his butt. One more example.
Chris90 commented:
December 16, 2012, 8:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

And the other extreme of not-normal is someone who purchases a 3 Series to keep for more than 10 years. Conversation like this, advice like this, it should be focused on the norm which is either a) lease for 3 years or b) buy for 4.

In my circle of friends, I don't know a single one that is driving a 10 year old car nor do I know a single one who purchased a car for $50,000 cash. Those who interject these radical strategies aren't helping.

BJ
I'd bet not a single person on this forum knows someone who buys a 3 series so they can show off by cruising Walmart parking lots. Except the ones who know personally, if that's anyone.

So don't start thinking you're the norm.
EddieB commented:
December 16, 2012, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'd bet not a single person on this forum knows someone who buys a 3 series so they can show off by cruising Walmart parking lots. Except the ones who know personally, if that's anyone.

So don't start thinking you're the norm.
Yeah, besides you might come across somebody in an Alpina B7 who was showing off too.
jlukja commented:
December 16, 2012, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
...... For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.

BJ
Its not just the badge. Even a stripped F30 comes with the N20 or N26 which is more powerful and more economical than the Accord, a fantastic and much better 8-speed auto transmission (in my case), and a more sophisticated suspension design. These things are not creature comforts yet you experience them every single time you're in the F30. These are the things that make it worth the extra few $K over the loaded Accord for me, regardless of the roundel.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 16, 2012, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlukja View Post
Its not just the badge. Even a stripped F30 comes with the N20 or N26 which is more powerful and more economical than the Accord, a fantastic and much better 8-speed auto transmission (in my case), and a more sophisticated suspension design. These things are not creature comforts yet you experience them every single time you're in the F30. These are the things that make it worth the extra few $K over the loaded Accord for me, regardless of the roundel.
That's vaild, but up until 3 months ago you didn't get full power seats, split rear seat, central locking, or even a garage door opener with a 328i.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 16, 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'd bet not a single person on this forum knows someone who buys a 3 series so they can show off by cruising Walmart parking lots. Except the ones who know personally, if that's anyone.

So don't start thinking you're the norm.
I never said I was.

You did.

BJ
mr29 commented:
December 16, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
im interested in this routine

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
thebmw commented:
December 16, 2012, 7:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
There are pros and cons to every make.

Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.

Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.

German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes
Domestic dealer networks are not great, and in California, they are nothing short of horrid and despicable. It's like all the overpriced and shaddy dealers somehow congregated to California. That said, all the dealerships (even BMW) I've visited in CA suck.

SRT is a great brand. They were fed some crappy products in the 2000's and somehow turned them into some of the best bangs for the buck. Looking forward, I think they will out do BMW dollar for dollar with their all new products. For example, the new Viper is on par or better than what Ferrari has to offer (they took Ferrari tech and seats and leather and kept the Viper rawness), at 1/3 the price. The new SRT M3/4 fighter in 2015 will do just that, at 25% less price. It will be interesting!

BTW, about the warranty, I agree with most here. BMWs can be tricky out of warranty. But Japanese cars are not cheap out of warranty either. Domestics can be profoundly cheap out of warranty. That said, you live once. Buy the car that inspires you. Don't buy another boring Accord or Camry unless you are a boring person. If you need a warranty, there are a ton of aftermarket warranties available.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 16, 2012, 9:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yes, all cars can be high/low optioned that way, but I think the 3 Series is unique in that regard because a BMW is a status-symbol and you can cheat your way into one practically for Honda money.

A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.

BJ
Very fair point. A stripped 3 is indeed still a BMW while a Civic loaded with all imaginable techno-gazoos is still, well, just a plebeian Civic. However, wouldn't it be fair to say the same applies to MB, and perhaps to a lesser extent to Audi? These brands do seem to cater to the badge hunters very well. Lexus and Acura avoid the problem by selling mostly loaded cars, leaving at most a couple of options on the table.

But this brings another interesting point. What is a better deal, a modestly optioned higher-end car or a well-optioned lesser car? And this can be looked at both from the badge-hunter's point of view or from a more functional perspective.

For instance, a modestly equipped $24K Accord is a much better value than a fully loaded $28K Civic. The status seeker would probably also prefer the Accord, unless they are rather young and want to avoid the granps image.

Similarly, you can load up a C63 to $80K, but for the average car buyer, a $55K E350 is both more practical and conveys higher status. The same applies to BMW: $50K well optioned 328i or a base 528i? Status seeker who are OK with the older image of the 5 will most likely pick it over a loaded 3.

So given all this, maybe picking a $38K 328i over a fully loaded V6 Accord is not all that unreasonable.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 16, 2012, 9:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's vaild, but up until 3 months ago you didn't get full power seats, split rear seat, central locking, or even a garage door opener with a 328i.
I think you used to get zero power for any of the seat adjustments. No dimming mirrors. But you still get plastic sets, plastic dash trim, no sunroof, etc. Not too long ago, the base wheels were even steelies with hubcaps.

I think BMW realized that some its customers were being laughed at for paying this much for a car worse equipped than a Corolla. It seems like they are in the business of optimizing two conflicting forces: the price has to be low enough to maximize the number of buyers, but the car cannot be so stripped as to insult them and make them prey to mockery by their friends. At the same time, they want to "encourage" you to load up on options to maximize profits. But the stripped 2012 was just outrageous compared to the competition, so they had no choice but to sweeten the deal a little.

Unfortunately, I think Audi picked up on some of these machinations. For instance, trip computer and folding backseats used to be standard on base trim VW's and of course all Audis. In the last few years, they have become options on the A4, and the sport pack can only be had if you opt for the second level trim.
EddieB commented:
December 16, 2012, 9:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Yes, all cars can be high/low optioned that way, but I think the 3 Series is unique in that regard because a BMW is a status-symbol and you can cheat your way into one practically for Honda money.

A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.

BJ
Not about the badge to me. If it were I'd get a Mercedes or Jaguar--more prestigious. I like driving period. Been driving the canyons of LA since a punk 16 year old on motorcycles from Suzuki, Honda to Harley. My first BMW was a 5er without sport suspension. The first time I drove that bastard through the canyon I almost wept with joy. It only gets better with the 3er--i'm sure the 1 series handles like a go-cart. I'd take a stripper 3 Series for the handling, period--badge be damned.
captainaudio commented:
December 16, 2012, 9:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Not about the badge to me. If it were I'd get a Mercedes or Jaguar--more prestigious. I like driving period. Been driving the canyons of LA since a punk 16 year old on motorcycles from Suzuki, Honda to Harley. My first BMW was a 5er without sport suspension. The first time I drove that bastard through the canyon I almost wept with joy. It only gets better with the 3er--i'm sure the 1 series handles like a go-cart. I'd take a stripper 3 Series for the handling, period--badge be damned.
Having owned several Jaguars (most recently an XKR) and having just spent a month in a rental Mercedes C Class I will have to agree with you about the Mercedes but IMO the Jag XKR was a better drivers car than my 335i, partularly with the crap RFTs and the lousy OEM shocks.

As for large sedans the 750Li xdrive is the best driving large sedan I have ever driven. I had several XJs (including an XJ sport) and as good as they were the 7 is better.

CA
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 16, 2012, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
He takes home $50k/month? $1 million/year pre-tax income? Yeah, right. BJ just pulls numbers out of his butt. One more example.
I think someone else estimated $33K take home, so ballpark $50K gross? That would be in line with his claimed gross of $600K and change a year gross. I don't find it far fetched. I am an engineering/applied math research type of a person, so a measly pawn, and my wife is likewise just an engineer, and if I cheat and include 401K matches, we get to about half of that, helped in part by the high cost of living of my area. Now if one of us were just a family practice doctor, you could probably add another $50-100K. A specialist? Then it's ,ore like $100-150K more. How about both doctors? How about a layer or CPA who has achieved partner status? How about a financial sector middle level executive, as you see many in the NYC area. Bonuses alone can reach a few hundred Ks on good years. If both spouses are mid-career professionals living in expensive coastal areas, chances are their household income will be at the multi-K level..
boltjaM3s commented:
December 16, 2012, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Very fair point. A stripped 3 is indeed still a BMW while a Civic loaded with all imaginable techno-gazoos is still, well, just a plebeian Civic. However, wouldn't it be fair to say the same applies to MB, and perhaps to a lesser extent to Audi? These brands do seem to cater to the badge hunters very well. Lexus and Acura avoid the problem by selling mostly loaded cars, leaving at most a couple of options on the table.

But this brings another interesting point. What is a better deal, a modestly optioned higher-end car or a well-optioned lesser car? And this can be looked at both from the badge-hunter's point of view or from a more functional perspective.

For instance, a modestly equipped $24K Accord is a much better value than a fully loaded $28K Civic. The status seeker would probably also prefer the Accord, unless they are rather young and want to avoid the granps image.

Similarly, you can load up a C63 to $80K, but for the average car buyer, a $55K E350 is both more practical and conveys higher status. The same applies to BMW: $50K well optioned 328i or a base 528i? Status seeker who are OK with the older image of the 5 will most likely pick it over a loaded 3.

So given all this, maybe picking a $38K 328i over a fully loaded V6 Accord is not all that unreasonable.
It's been awhile since I drove a Honda sedan product, but my recollection from the Prelude's of the early 90's and Accord's of the early 00's is that they handled extremely well and their Acura Legend and TL variants were quite sumptuous too.

For me, it was either get an '06 Acura TL fully loaded for $40K or get an '06 BMW E93 completely stripped, and I went with the BMW because, at the time, the badge meant more to me than the oodles of techno features did. After 24 months I really missed the Acura gadgetry and felt that the bump in handling combined with the type of realworld driving I was doing made it a bum deal.

So I decided that all BMW's from there on in are going to be loaded for me because I want the best of both worlds, want it all.

But there are plenty of people who reach that same turning point that I did in '06. Do I keep getting top of the line pedestrian cars or do I get a low-end luxury car? Many people choose the latter option.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
December 16, 2012, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think you used to get zero power for any of the seat adjustments. No dimming mirrors. But you still get plastic sets, plastic dash trim, no sunroof, etc. Not too long ago, the base wheels were even steelies with hubcaps.

I think BMW realized that some its customers were being laughed at for paying this much for a car worse equipped than a Corolla. It seems like they are in the business of optimizing two conflicting forces: the price has to be low enough to maximize the number of buyers, but the car cannot be so stripped as to insult them and make them prey to mockery by their friends. At the same time, they want to "encourage" you to load up on options to maximize profits. But the stripped 2012 was just outrageous compared to the competition, so they had no choice but to sweeten the deal a little.

Unfortunately, I think Audi picked up on some of these machinations. For instance, trip computer and folding backseats used to be standard on base trim VW's and of course all Audis. In the last few years, they have become options on the A4, and the sport pack can only be had if you opt for the second level trim.
Precisely.

The magic profit equation for BMW is that the 3 Series is two different cars for two different buyers at two different lifestages. It's rare that one of my junior executives can afford the same car as the big boss does, but really he doesn't. My $50,000 version is not the same car as the $36,000 stripper. It makes a lot of money for BMW, gets the brand out there, gets lots of future big-spenders into the family, etc.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 17, 2012, 2:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's been awhile since I drove a Honda sedan product, but my recollection from the Prelude's of the early 90's and Accord's of the early 00's is that they handled extremely well and their Acura Legend and TL variants were quite sumptuous too.
The Prelude was a very sporty car. But the Accords, while they feel a little tauter than say Camries in normal driving, they don't have higher limits, and at least on one I drove it seemed like the steering wheel cannot keep up sometimes with fast inputs. This is specially true for the rather very large outgoing Accord. The large Acuras do a little better (but nothing like the high-strung GSR), but not quite up to BMW/Audi level.

There is one number I like to look at to gauge the dynamic handling capabilities of cars, and that's Consumer Reports' "evasive maneuver" maximum speed. The numbers clearly reveal a difference between Camry/Accords and 3/A4s and confrom what we feel when driving. Of course, it's just one measure out of many others, but these cars also feel rather different at high speeds. The Germans feel a lot more "planted" at high speeds. Is it alignment, tauter suspension, a combination, something else, I don't know? Are they worth the price premium? That's a very subjective call.

VW offered a very nice middle ground in terms of both price and performance. But some of their latest models, such as the Passat, have been toned down in the handling and department. But I am veering more and more away from the topic of this thread.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 17, 2012, 2:39 am

Here is one question getting back to leasing versus out of warranty ownership.

What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
tturedraider commented:
December 17, 2012, 2:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is one question getting back to leasing versus out of warranty ownership.

What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
Not sure exactly what you're asking. If one wanted to lease in such a situation (and there could be good reason to do that), one could do a two year lease and buy the extra miles up front at 15 cents/mile. Or if the number of miles is significantly uncertain one could wait until approximately six months before the lease ends and buy the extra miles needed at 16 cents/mile.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 17, 2012, 11:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think someone else estimated $33K take home, so ballpark $50K gross? That would be in line with his claimed gross of $600K and change a year gross. I don't find it far fetched. I am an engineering/applied math research type of a person, so a measly pawn, and my wife is likewise just an engineer, and if I cheat and include 401K matches, we get to about half of that, helped in part by the high cost of living of my area. Now if one of us were just a family practice doctor, you could probably add another $50-100K. A specialist? Then it's ,ore like $100-150K more. How about both doctors? How about a layer or CPA who has achieved partner status? How about a financial sector middle level executive, as you see many in the NYC area. Bonuses alone can reach a few hundred Ks on good years. If both spouses are mid-career professionals living in expensive coastal areas, chances are their household income will be at the multi-K level..
Absolutely - it's normal for upper middle class in many parts of the country to reach a point in life where a $250k household is "normal". Heck, you combined a tenured professor and a 30+ year policeman in many cities and you get $250-300k households. Don't even need to be no doctor/lawyer

Now, that being said, the number one rule of being in the financial strata of a Bentley owner is not talking about being able to afford a Bentley. For if it's in question, then you surely are not an average Bentley owner.

I live in a moderately affluent area and consider BMWs to be pretty standard stuff. They lease for what people pay monthly on their new Honda Accords, so it's pretty basic to see 3-series around.

Delightful car but not exactly a status icon anymore. That was a deliberate strategy by BMW to sell more cars and it's worked quite well - bravo BMW.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 17, 2012, 11:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is one question getting back to leasing versus out of warranty ownership.

What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
I faced this same question and the bottom line is that unless you have a specific unusual reason to lease, you are better off buying new or even finding a 1 year old CPO.

You are looking at at least $100-150 extra/month to lease a car for that mileage.

That's about the difference to finance the same car, have no mileage restrictions, and get the various other benefits to actually owning. You no longer have to turn-in on a forced time, you may build a bit of equity over the same time period, etc.
fatherandsonbmw commented:
December 17, 2012, 2:38 pm

Any car is only as good as it's previous owner. I found a 1984 325e for my son for $490. It needed a new guibo, transmission bearing and transmission mounts (less than $100 in parts- I did the work myself). After a tuneup, system flush, new windshield and some cleanup the car purrs like a kitten- with over 300K on the speedometer. For less than $800 my son is bopping around in a sporty vintage 5 speed- these cars just won't quit. Obviously the previous owner(s) kept the car maintained and took care of things as they happened. All cars require maintenance, but if you understand that and respect them- bimmers are one of the best cars to own. I won't own anything else!
racooper3 commented:
December 17, 2012, 4:39 pm

It ain't that bad. We love working on our cars in our own time. For the faint of heart, go get that Lexus or Acura. We won't stop you. Leave the machine for us to drive, passing or in front of you I might add.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 17, 2012, 5:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Absolutely - it's normal for upper middle class in many parts of the country to reach a point in life where a $250k household is "normal". Heck, you combined a tenured professor and a 30+ year policeman in many cities and you get $250-300k households. Don't even need to be no doctor/lawyer

Now, that being said, the number one rule of being in the financial strata of a Bentley owner is not talking about being able to afford a Bentley. For if it's in question, then you surely are not an average Bentley owner.

I live in a moderately affluent area and consider BMWs to be pretty standard stuff. They lease for what people pay monthly on their new Honda Accords, so it's pretty basic to see 3-series around.

Delightful car but not exactly a status icon anymore. That was a deliberate strategy by BMW to sell more cars and it's worked quite well - bravo BMW.
Something else to consider:

A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.

The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.

BJ
Saintor commented:
December 17, 2012, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

The magic profit equation for BMW is that the 3 Series is two different cars for two different buyers at two different lifestages. It's rare that one of my junior executives can afford the same car as the big boss does, but really he doesn't. My $50,000 version is not the same car as the $36,000 stripper. It makes a lot of money for BMW, gets the brand out there, gets lots of future big-spenders into the family, etc.

BJ
Well, your car is an overpriced 36000$ version.

If you want a 50000$ version, it must be a 335i.
trinipirate commented:
December 18, 2012, 11:23 am

If someone wants to buy a 36K stripper because that's what they can afford more power to them. The real posers in my area drive old generation high mileage BMW's just for the badge... more power to them too if they can afford the repairs. The thing is, someone will look at my brand new 45K sportline and say... thats not the real deal. You need M-Sport, or a 335, or a 5 series. Someone actually told me the 328 is a woman car, get the 335. This thinking can go on and on up to the bently and exotic car owners. Buy what you like and can afford I say. I don't knock the status seekers.
EnerJi commented:
December 18, 2012, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
If someone wants to buy a 36K stripper because that's what they can afford more power to them. The real posers in my area drive old generation high mileage BMW's just for the badge... more power to them too if they can afford the repairs. The thing is, someone will look at my brand new 45K sportline and say... thats not the real deal. You need M-Sport, or a 335, or a 5 series. Someone actually told me the 328 is a woman car, get the 335. This thinking can go on and on up to the bently and exotic car owners. Buy what you like and can afford I say. I don't knock the status seekers.

I agree with all of what you say. Just a comment on the bolded section: an old generation high mileage BMW is likely to be less expensive to operate than a new one. Your brand new $45k car is going to lose over $6k in value in its first year, over $5k in value in its second year, etc. It's highly unlikely that an older (well-maintained) car will cost nearly that much in repairs.
EddieB commented:
December 18, 2012, 12:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
If someone wants to buy a 36K stripper because that's what they can afford more power to them. The real posers in my area drive old generation high mileage BMW's just for the badge... more power to them too if they can afford the repairs. The thing is, someone will look at my brand new 45K sportline and say... thats not the real deal. You need M-Sport, or a 335, or a 5 series. Someone actually told me the 328 is a woman car, get the 335. This thinking can go on and on up to the bently and exotic car owners. Buy what you like and can afford I say. I don't knock the status seekers.
Yeah, an M6 pulled up to my right at a red light in the curb lane to jack rabbit in front of me through the intersection and cut me off. I always wonder what type person buys/leases those.
spicytofu commented:
December 18, 2012, 12:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Yeah, an M6 pulled up to my right at a red light in the curb lane to jack rabbit in front of me through the intersection and cut me off. I always wonder what type person buys/leases those.
Buy an M6 and find out
av98 commented:
December 18, 2012, 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Something else to consider:

A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.

The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.

BJ

Try San Francisco and that becomes $20K with the same limited Manhattan parking. Live in the suburbs to offset the cost
trinipirate commented:
December 18, 2012, 1:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
I agree with all of what you say. Just a comment on the bolded section: an old generation high mileage BMW is likely to be less expensive to operate than a new one. Your brand new $45k car is going to lose over $6k in value in its first year, over $5k in value in its second year, etc. It's highly unlikely that an older (well-maintained) car will cost nearly that much in repairs.
Regardless of what they pay or I pay on repairs, they bought the 10-15yr old "3 previous owners" BMW just because of the badge as opposed to a newer Honda w/ less maintenance. That's what I meant. But that's their right.
Chris90 commented:
December 18, 2012, 2:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinipirate View Post
Regardless of what they pay or I pay on repairs, they bought the 10-15yr old "3 previous owners" BMW just because of the badge as opposed to a newer Honda w/ less maintenance. That's what I meant. But that's their right.
I'm amazed at how little F30 owners seem to know about BMWs.

10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
EddieB commented:
December 18, 2012, 2:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'm amazed at how little F30 owners seem to know about BMWs.

10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
I know virtually nothing about Mercedes, so when I see one I can't tell if it's the latest model or not (unless it's 70s or the old E320 style).

I suspect it's the same to somebody not familiar with BMW. People that didn't know my 2006 E46 M3 was that old, thought it a current model. A timeless look IMHO. Hell I can barely tell an F30 from the F10 at a distance
trinipirate commented:
December 18, 2012, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I'm amazed at how little F30 owners seem to know about BMWs.

10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
It depends on where you live. Kids drive them in my area and think they're cool. Sure enough their Toyota driving peers give them props on "owning a bmw". That has nothing to do with F30 owners knowledge of BMWs. I'm not one bit impressed by it... doesn't mean other people aren't.
captainaudio commented:
December 18, 2012, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Try San Francisco and that becomes $20K with the same limited Manhattan parking. Live in the suburbs to offset the cost
Spiese commented:
December 19, 2012, 3:26 pm

Time will tell! But the ride is second to none! I have owned Mercedes E300, 420SEL, s420, E55 and none of those can compare to the 645Ci. Just plain fun!
mr29 commented:
December 19, 2012, 10:10 pm

anyone have a list of what is not covered under new car warranty? I've search and can't find anything on it
boltjaM3s commented:
December 19, 2012, 11:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
anyone have a list of what is not covered under new car warranty? I've search and can't find anything on it
There's a reason you can't find it.

Take a guess as to why.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
December 19, 2012, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
anyone have a list of what is not covered under new car warranty? I've search and can't find anything on it
Tires and the wax job?
mr29 commented:
December 20, 2012, 12:45 am

hmm interesting ill keep searching im sure something is out there

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
odessa91 commented:
December 20, 2012, 2:02 pm

From financial standpoint:
Leasing $50K MSRP BMW / 10Kmi per year with 7 MSD ( ~ $3.5K) would cost roughly about $150 / month more than buying same car 3 year old (30Kmi) for $30K plus tax and keep and drive that car for next seven years and sell it at $10k with 100Kmi after that. If you count tax consideration, investment return on your 30K you paid upfront when you buy (or loan you take to buy), the difference can be even less.
Assumptions: MSRP - $50k, 10000 / per year, Value loss - !5% / year, after warranty maintenance (repair cost) $0.15 / mile

If you continue to keep this car the saving would be bigger since after 10years, car residual value play less toll.
JoeFromPA commented:
December 20, 2012, 3:14 pm

Add the transaction costs (sales tax, etc.) as well to your equation for at least 3 cycles.
madurodave commented:
December 20, 2012, 3:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Add the transaction costs (sales tax, etc.) as well to your equation for at least 3 cycles.
Plus mileage overages if you drive a lot like me!

That's why I can't lease anymore!
odessa91 commented:
December 20, 2012, 4:01 pm

If you drive less than 50,000/3 = 16,666mi per year, lease give you even better saving
madurodave commented:
December 20, 2012, 4:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by odessa91 View Post
If you drive less than 50,000/3 = 16,666mi per year, lease give you even better saving
Or if you drive about 30000 miles per year like me - ouch on leases!

I drive TOO much!
John Isaac commented:
December 21, 2012, 1:16 pm

I presently own a 2002 BMW 530i. As long as you do the regular maintenance to your vehicle there is no reason why you should have nothing but a great experience driving a BMW. Typically maintenance is required less on BMW's than most cars. People cannot believe my car is 11 years old. It continues to put a smile on my face everytime I drive it. Good Luck.
EddieB commented:
December 21, 2012, 1:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isaac View Post
I presently own a 2002 BMW 530i. As long as you do the regular maintenance to your vehicle there is no reason why you should have nothing but a great experience driving a BMW. Typically maintenance is required less on BMW's than most cars. People cannot believe my car is 11 years old. It continues to put a smile on my face everytime I drive it. Good Luck.
I had a 2001 530i, and I loved that car. Ex-wife got it in the divorce

She had it trouble free until a month or so ago.
MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented:
December 21, 2012, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
I had a 2001 530i, and I loved that car. Ex-wife got it in the divorce

She had it trouble free until a month or so ago.
What you didnt mention is you just got divorced 2 months ago.
Landrovah commented:
December 22, 2012, 2:11 pm

Depends on the car. Definitely do your own due dilligence. I bought a 2008 z4si w/ M heated seats, standard tranny, bluetooth, etc. CPO'd for about half the sticker. that was two years ago. Have since piled on about 34k worry free miles. Had the top replaced under warranty and that was about it. Mechanically, pretty solid (although relatively no frills) car. I probably would not own something like a v10 M5 out of warranty simply because of the complexity. I also found a solid independant shop (Texas German Auto) in Houston to take care of regular maintenance at good prices. All in, one of the best car purchases i've made. Hopefully the straight six normally apsirated engine will last for many more miles. My only complaint is that I chew through tires (don't use run-flats) but that was expected going into the purchase so not a surprise to me and my heavy right foot ;-)
JoeFromPA commented:
December 22, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landrovah View Post
Depends on the car. Definitely do your own due dilligence. I bought a 2008 z4si w/ M heated seats, standard tranny, bluetooth, etc. CPO'd for about half the sticker. that was two years ago. Have since piled on about 34k worry free miles. Had the top replaced under warranty and that was about it. Mechanically, pretty solid (although relatively no frills) car. I probably would not own something like a v10 M5 out of warranty simply because of the complexity. I also found a solid independant shop (Texas German Auto) in Houston to take care of regular maintenance at good prices. All in, one of the best car purchases i've made. Hopefully the straight six normally apsirated engine will last for many more miles. My only complaint is that I chew through tires (don't use run-flats) but that was expected going into the purchase so not a surprise to me and my heavy right foot ;-)
Just a suggestion but look at getting an alignment done NOT to BMW factory spec. BMW tends to spec way to much toe (toe-in) from the factory on their m-cars. Zero out the toe, or as much as possible, and go a bit conservative on the negative camber - and you'll probably get 50-100% more rear tire life. Fronts will do better as well.
ProRail commented:
December 23, 2012, 12:54 am

What is this "warranty" of which you speak? Can I apply it to my 1999 528 with 180K on the odometer? Might save me 1K per year, but who would pay it?
rmjames007 commented:
December 23, 2012, 11:57 pm

I have to say I am concerned as well. I had been a faith ful Honda/Acura for several years. And to say that their cars are bullet proof is an understatement.

I have an 09 135i (E82) and While i love it I hope in the back of my mind its as reliable as it is beautiful.
ProRail commented:
December 24, 2012, 7:26 pm

I have only 180.000 miles on my 1999 528 and it's already showing its age. Maybe you should think about buying something neser.
5SeriesLover commented:
December 26, 2012, 10:11 am

If low maintenance is your only or main measure of value then buy Honda Civics. If you want performance, then the BMW 5 Series is usually the most reliable of the European performance cars - WAY better than Audi / VW, more and more better as times goes on, than the dwindling number of remotely affordable Mercedes models that offer performance. I'm surprised by the many who say $2 - $3K annually for maintenance, our 1987 E28 averages about $800 and our admittedly newer 1998 E39 has averaged about $450 yet in both cases mechanics always comment on the excellent condition of both vehicles. Having said that, unfortunately right now the 5 Series BMWs are all total lemons in the reliability and longevity of their drive systems. I'll also say that all the mechanics I've used say to never keep a 3 series once out of warranty unless you do a lot of your own work. Hope BMW gets its act back together on the 5 series before I need to buy a car again.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 26, 2012, 10:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5SeriesLover View Post

Hope BMW gets its act back together on the 5 series before I need to buy a car again.
BMW's are not meant to be purchased; they're meant to be leased.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 26, 2012, 10:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW's are not meant to be purchased; they're meant to be leased.

BJ
BMW's are not meant to be purchased; they're meant to be leased by those who can't afford to pay cash because they are living way beyond their means!

Fixed!
boltjaM3s commented:
December 26, 2012, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW's are not meant to be purchased; they're meant to be leased by those who can't afford to pay cash because they are living way beyond their means!

Fixed!
That's part of BMW's strategy, definitely.

They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.

BJ
beden1 commented:
December 26, 2012, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's part of BMW's strategy, definitely.

They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.

BJ
That's also one of the reasons why payday loans are so popular.
cblandin commented:
December 26, 2012, 11:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isaac View Post
I presently own a 2002 BMW 530i. As long as you do the regular maintenance to your vehicle there is no reason why you should have nothing but a great experience driving a BMW. Typically maintenance is required less on BMW's than most cars. People cannot believe my car is 11 years old. It continues to put a smile on my face everytime I drive it. Good Luck.
We had an '01 530i too. Really a great car, but once it hit 100K miles (or mid-life for it's Japanese competition) it was like it hit an expiration point. It ran great, but I did not have fun replacing/fixing:

Radiator (popped sitting in driveway)
fuel filler door solenoid
emblems
oil filter housing oil leak (massive)
intake CPS
DISA valve gasket
clogged IACV
alternator idler pulley
thrust arm bushings
left to right in-tank siphon hose
ABS Module
leaky door seals
(and the list goes on)

SOME of these could be considered maintenance items, but MANY are things that just SHOULD NOT be issues at that mileage...or at the very least are not issues on other makes. I DIYed all of this, but in that same time I've barely touched our Japanese cars.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5SeriesLover View Post
If low maintenance is your only or main measure of value then buy Honda Civics. If you want performance, then the BMW 5 Series is usually the most reliable of the European performance cars - WAY better than Audi / VW, ...
A statistic is made up on the internet every 0.0002343 seconds.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Something else to consider:

A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.

The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.
You can see the flip side of it as well. The Appleton person can afford a very nice big house, so he ties up more of his money to it leaving less for a car. The Manhattan guy has no chance in hell to afford a house, so he has more money left over for a nice car. Fancy cars in average apartments is not unusual in L.A.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Yeah, an M6 pulled up to my right at a red light in the curb lane to jack rabbit in front of me through the intersection and cut me off. I always wonder what type person buys/leases those.
Talk about a car category I simply don't understand. Big bloated pigs with very little functionality.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
anyone have a list of what is not covered under new car warranty? I've search and can't find anything on it
Tires and some wear items have lower than 50K warranties. Clutches are often warrantied until 12K. Maybe there is something similar for brakes?
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I faced this same question and the bottom line is that unless you have a specific unusual reason to lease, you are better off buying new or even finding a 1 year old CPO.

You are looking at at least $100-150 extra/month to lease a car for that mileage.

That's about the difference to finance the same car, have no mileage restrictions, and get the various other benefits to actually owning. You no longer have to turn-in on a forced time, you may build a bit of equity over the same time period, etc.
I have looked at the numbers and I have concluded it doesn't make sense for me to lease. I was just curious to see if someone had found a "trick" I had missed.
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's part of BMW's strategy, definitely.

They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.
OK, how do we know the scrimpers are in the strippers and the well-to-do are in the $50K aspirational icon? Has anyone ever seen a density curve of 3-series purchase/lease price versus income, or are we contributing to "internet statistics?"
mr29 commented:
December 26, 2012, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5SeriesLover View Post
If low maintenance is your only or main measure of value then buy Honda Civics. If you want performance, then the BMW 5 Series is usually the most reliable of the European performance cars - WAY better than Audi / VW, more and more better as times goes on, than the dwindling number of remotely affordable Mercedes models that offer performance. I'm surprised by the many who say $2 - $3K annually for maintenance, our 1987 E28 averages about $800 and our admittedly newer 1998 E39 has averaged about $450 yet in both cases mechanics always comment on the excellent condition of both vehicles. Having said that, unfortunately right now the 5 Series BMWs are all total lemons in the reliability and longevity of their drive systems. I'll also say that all the mechanics I've used say to never keep a 3 series once out of warranty unless you do a lot of your own work. Hope BMW gets its act back together on the 5 series before I need to buy a car again.
awesome post here. i was considering a 5 as a winter car till i did research. as for the rest of the stuff ive found it to be true as well you gotta pay to play

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
captainaudio commented:
December 26, 2012, 6:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You can see the flip side of it as well. The Appleton person can afford a very nice big house, so he ties up more of his money to it leaving less for a car. The Manhattan guy has no chance in hell to afford a house, so he has more money left over for a nice car. Fancy cars in average apartments is not unusual in L.A.
Manhattan apartments tend to rent for more than mortgage payments in other parts of the country. Many Manhattan residents own their apartments. Studio apartments can easily cost more than $500,000 and there is often a $1500/ mo maintenance charge on top of the mortgage payment. If there is a garage in the building a parking spot will be between $500 and $1000 per month.

Many Manhattan residents, including some who have very substantial incomes, do not own cars at all. It really is hard to justify but I have always been a "car guy" so car ownership is a luxury I am willing to pay for.



CA
boltjaM3s commented:
December 26, 2012, 7:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You can see the flip side of it as well. The Appleton person can afford a very nice big house, so he ties up more of his money to it leaving less for a car. The Manhattan guy has no chance in hell to afford a house, so he has more money left over for a nice car. Fancy cars in average apartments is not unusual in L.A.
Agreed.

The original point was that salaries and cost of living vary wildly from driver to driver but the cost of the F30 is the same for all.

So someone in a $50,000 F30 in Appleton can be making $100K a year and living large whereas someone in a $50,000 F30 in San Fransisco can be making $300K a year and living paycheck-to-paycheck.

This was during a debate a few weeks ago as to why some people don't view an F30 as a luxury car when others do. It's all relative to your frame of reference, how much you make, where you live.

BJ
bmw_or_audi commented:
December 26, 2012, 7:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Manhattan apartments tend to rent for more than mortgage payments in other parts of the country. Many Manhattan residents own their apartments. Studio apartments can easily cost more than $500,000 and there is often a $1500/ mo maintenance charge on top of the mortgage payment. If there is a garage in the building a parking spot will be between $500 and $1000 per month.
I think we are making the same argument? Isn't it still true that ownership in Manhattan (let's say NYC to be more general and relevant) still requires more capital and higher payments than rent? My point was that if you make a little lower than what you need to own, and so you instead rent, you have more money left for a car. I think this is true regardless of where you live. However, many more people will be able to get into a house in Appleton or wherever, so they will not have enough to spare for a car splurge. In LA, especially West LA, we have a slightly lesser version of the NYC problem. An old crappy 3 bedroom will cost you a million. So folks making decent but not great salaries, and unwilling to live farther away, can only rent. So they have more money left for cars. Folks making the same salaries but willing to live farther away and "settle" for a $700K house will have higher housing expenses and less money for cars.
boltjaM3s commented:
December 26, 2012, 7:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think we are making the same argument? Isn't it still true that ownership in Manhattan (let's say NYC to be more general and relevant) still requires more capital and higher payments than rent? My point was that if you make a little lower than what you need to own, and so you instead rent, you have more money left for a car. I think this is true regardless of where you live. However, many more people will be able to get into a house in Appleton or wherever, so they will not have enough to spare for a car splurge. In LA, especially West LA, we have a slightly lesser version of the NYC problem. An old crappy 3 bedroom will cost you a million. So folks making decent but not great salaries, and unwilling to live farther away, can only rent. So they have more money left for cars. Folks making the same salaries but willing to live farther away and "settle" for a $700K house will have higher housing expenses and less money for cars.
We have posters on here who'll say "They're not status symbols! I know cleaning women who drive 3 Series BMW's!" and its because they live in a place where a $300K house is a luxury and the standard of living is 1/10th that of the rest of us.

BJ
SilverX3 commented:
December 26, 2012, 8:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BMW's are not meant to be purchased; they're meant to be leased by those who can't afford to pay cash because they are living way beyond their means!

Fixed!
In Australia we lead car for tax purposes
steveaikens commented:
December 30, 2012, 9:33 am

My feeling is a wise man knows what they have - or are buying. I personally wouldn't consider buying a used BMW that I didn't have an intimate knowledge of how it was maintained and cared for, that wasn't under warranty.

That said, buying a used BMW [or continueing to drive both of mine] from someone that is as anal as I am about my cars and has records as concise as mine are, that show no unexpected issues, woudln't be a problem for me.

I firmly believe BMW is a quality car and will retain that quality with proper upkeep and maintenance.
Snareman commented:
December 30, 2012, 9:36 am

It's been my experience that there is a significant amount of that upkeep to keep the car working as things keep breaking and especially so compared to all the other cars that I have owned.
turbonewb commented:
January 1, 2013, 9:45 pm

I bought a used 2004 530i with 68K, and now I'm at 89K.

So far I have done:

1)Replaced front control arms (both top and bottom) - I was having a brake shimmy problem. I didn't need to replace my low control arm, but did it anyway due to the mileage of my car.

2)Fixed DISA with Repair and Upgrade kit from German Auto Solutions - My DISA was non-functioning.

3)Replaced Dual Vanos with Dr. Vanos kit - My Vanos system was rattling loud.

4)Replaced CCV system - Preventive replacement.

5)Changed Spark plug - Preventive replacement.

6)Changed out oil filter housing gasket - Mine was leaking.

7)Changed out Brake pads

Other than what I mentioned, minus regular scheduled maintenance, it has been a great dependable car.
pony_trekker commented:
January 1, 2013, 10:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isaac View Post
I presently own a 2002 BMW 530i. As long as you do the regular maintenance to your vehicle there is no reason why you should have nothing but a great experience driving a BMW. Typically maintenance is required less on BMW's than most cars. People cannot believe my car is 11 years old. It continues to put a smile on my face everytime I drive it. Good Luck.
Not fair. The E39 is the greatest car ever built.
EddieB commented:
January 1, 2013, 11:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
Not fair. The E39 is the greatest car ever built.
It is a nice beast for sure.
reidconti commented:
January 9, 2013, 1:44 pm

I've never owned a BMW (or any car for that matter) *in* warranty. My Z3M is nearing 140k.

The general feeling is, don't buy a BMW you can't afford, used, out of warranty.

If you buy it used and can easily afford it, you'll have money on hand if anything goes wrong. It's always a tradeoff, but I have a hard time imagining a used BMW where you spend more every month on repairs than you spent buying it, unless you're buying some beat salvage title E39 M5 or something.

If you buy an F30 new and plan to keep it for a long time -- why not? By the time it's paid for and out of warranty, again, you'll have plenty of free money to deal with any issues that might come up.
mr29 commented:
February 4, 2013, 2:08 am

bumping a great thread for the new guys to read through.gives you alot to think about and consider.
hans007 commented:
February 4, 2013, 5:29 am

I've heard the lower series cars are actually much more reliable. I know a lot of the v8 engines cost more to keep running , burn oil etc.

I've got some faith in BMW. Parents have had 3 and none have give them any major problems . I think one a power window motor died. And my dads 2004 x3 only thing that's ever gone wrong was he had to replace the ac compressor after 7 years. He's finally swelling it after 135k miles and bought a 2013 x3 to replace it. I'm hoping my luck is the same with my first BMW. Two months in no problems so far!
jerrykur commented:
February 4, 2013, 12:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You can see the flip side of it as well. The Appleton person can afford a very nice big house, so he ties up more of his money to it leaving less for a car. The Manhattan guy has no chance in hell to afford a house, so he has more money left over for a nice car. Fancy cars in average apartments is not unusual in L.A.
Why would anyone in Manhattan even want a car, let alone a nice car. Garaging the car would probably run close to the payments, and no need for speed when you lucky to do 40 mph.
kobechrome commented:
February 4, 2013, 4:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrykur View Post
Why would anyone in Manhattan even want a car, let alone a nice car. Garaging the car would probably run close to the payments, and no need for speed when you lucky to do 40 mph.
this
WaxComb commented:
February 4, 2013, 5:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I think we are making the same argument? Isn't it still true that ownership in Manhattan (let's say NYC to be more general and relevant) still requires more capital and higher payments than rent? My point was that if you make a little lower than what you need to own, and so you instead rent, you have more money left for a car. I think this is true regardless of where you live. However, many more people will be able to get into a house in Appleton or wherever, so they will not have enough to spare for a car splurge. In LA, especially West LA, we have a slightly lesser version of the NYC problem. An old crappy 3 bedroom will cost you a million. So folks making decent but not great salaries, and unwilling to live farther away, can only rent. So they have more money left for cars. Folks making the same salaries but willing to live farther away and "settle" for a $700K house will have higher housing expenses and less money for cars.
For perspective, my west LA (Santa Monica adjacent... lol) 2 bedroom cost $1800 per month (a bargain). I use to have a lower Brentwood 1 Bedroom apartment at $1500 per month (also a bargain).

In Santa Monica however, an lower end 1 bedroom is $1700 and a lower end 2 bedroom is $2200. Low income (under about $60,000 married... less if single) is $1500 for a 1 bedroom/lofted studio (which, in my opinion, is unaffordable at that income range).
Hagen21 commented:
February 4, 2013, 6:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrykur View Post
Why would anyone in Manhattan even want a car, let alone a nice car. Garaging the car would probably run close to the payments, and no need for speed when you lucky to do 40 mph.
When I lived in Manhattan I had a car. Probably cost more to park it than people pay in rent in many other places in the country. I got tired of renting a car every time I wanted to go somewhere on the weekends. So for me it was an easy decision. The car sat in the garage all week. It wasn't for driving within the city. You don't live in Manhattan and not expect to spend a fortune on everything. Dropping 500 a month on a parking spot doesn't seem like a big deal when the average rent is in the thousands of dollars for even the most basic of apartments.
imtjm commented:
February 4, 2013, 6:58 pm

WRT to the OP's header: my intention when "buying" a BMW is that I will keep it until it dies, regardless of warranty so long as it remains reliable. We kept our 318i for over 20 years. It didn't die, but it was time to sell it. We sold our 325i after only 10 years with less than 70k miles, because it did not occur to me: first, moving outside of a non-SULEV friendly state made you ineligible for the extended emissions warranty; second, that the SULEV had a sealed gas tank where the fuel pump is housed, making for a major repair around 10-15 yr mark (approx considering the extended emissions warranty is 15/150k) out of warranty. I supposed we could have kept it for another 5 years betting that the emissions related parts like the fuel pump would last as long as the warranty period, but with money being nearly free these days to borrow (we normally pay cash, but it is nearly free these days at .5%) and the incentives being offered, we let it go. If not for the SULEV crap, we would have most assuredly had the car for at least another 10 years since the car did not have any major or medium issues and it was just damn reliable. It sucked getting rid of it, my wife was rather sad actually. Our 3 year old 335D and our new 328xi will remain with us hopefully for a very long time, but again we will gauge it depending on how reliable they remain.

There are lemons in every car maker's fleet, but we've been fortunate to have gotten reliable cars. This doesn't mean regular maintenance doesn't cost, it does; however, I think people who cannot afford something have a tendency to let things slide like a little leak or something just for the ownership. We aren't that way. We understand that owning a BMW has its expense, and even if our indie mechanic says it's only a small leak or it can wait, we don't let it wait.
Samurai Poodle commented:
February 5, 2013, 8:23 am

I had to ditch my 2004 X5 with 90K miles on it because the repair costs had become equal to what I'd be paying monthly for a new car with all the new technology. boltjaM3s makes some valid, if somewhat snobbish, points about being in a luxury car. I plan on spending $800 a month either on payments or repairs so I might as well be driving a new one. Plus--and this I can not emphasize enough--the chicks dig it.

"cheating their way into the roundel" is a keeper.
Rover commented:
February 5, 2013, 10:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks ).
Here is something to ponder. I've owned two 3 series...with both 'well over' 100,000 miles. My expenses beyond the warranty period would not justify buying the extended program. Note...the recent consumer report...gives the 3 series the top reliability rating...along with the Honda Accord 4 cylinder.

But, with a new turbo 4 engine....'maybe' an extended warranty might be worth it...if only to offset the worry factor.
Rover commented:
February 5, 2013, 10:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Poodle View Post
I had to ditch my 2004 X5 with 90K miles on it because the repair costs had become equal to what I'd be paying monthly for a new car with all the new technology. boltjaM3s makes some valid, if somewhat snobbish, points about being in a luxury car. I plan on spending $800 a month either on payments or repairs so I might as well be driving a new one. Plus--and this I can not emphasize enough--the chicks dig it.

"cheating their way into the roundel" is a keeper.
The X5 was not a very reliable car...per Consumer Reports. The X3...even today...is more reliable.

The X5's reliability has never approached that of the 3 series (more specifically, the 328's) sedans and coupes (again...per Consumer Reports).
boltjaM3s commented:
February 5, 2013, 10:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrykur View Post
Why would anyone in Manhattan even want a car, let alone a nice car. Garaging the car would probably run close to the payments, and no need for speed when you lucky to do 40 mph.
Because people who live and work in the city like to get away on the weekends.

For the 10 years I lived in Manhattan, I had a car in an expensive garage because it was my ticket out of the city every week. Visiting family on Long Island, cruising out to football games in New Jersey, hauling it up to Vermont for skiing, the Hamptons, and on and on.

BJ
Rover commented:
February 5, 2013, 10:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snareman View Post
It's been my experience that there is a significant amount of that upkeep to keep the car working as things keep breaking and especially so compared to all the other cars that I have owned.
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. If you are driving a a 3 series (not an M)...you should be experiencing much less in expenses. Take it from a guy who has had two 3 series....with combined mileage over 250,000 miles. Also note Consumer Reports' recent stellar reliability ratings for the 328.