So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
).
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
).
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December 10, 2012, 12:56 am
There are pros and cons to every make.
Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.
Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.
German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes
December 10, 2012, 1:09 am
i don tthink BMW in particular is that bad , i know several people with BMWs well out of warranty that are running fine. the main thing is parts and filters and such cost a little more than say an acura.
I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it, and it has been super reliable. Had a roomate with a 1990 525i with 190k miles and it ran fine too nothing ever crazy happened to them that wouldn't happen to any other car that age.
December 10, 2012, 1:56 am
Buy old car, maybe have to fork out a bit for repairs, possibly if you buy bad get ripped off you'll need to fork out a lot
Buy new car you might buy a lemon, very slight chance though, but you certainly will do a massive chunk of your money in depreciation and maybe more with finance.
I have paid an extra 50% of the purchase price in 6 weeks for my 19 yr old 540i, in transfer fees/stamp duty, insurance, and various repairs (fuel pump, p/s flush due to incorrect fluid, engine and tranny mounts which some douche mechanic ought to lose accreditation over (should not have passed roadworthy cert for sale), and theres a bit of shimmy which will need some steering bits in 6mo or so... but I budgeted for more so am not worried yet. I think people get excited thinking they bought a $1k or $5k BMW and then get a nasty surprise about what follows that theyre not prepared for.
December 10, 2012, 2:36 am
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
December 10, 2012, 7:46 am
As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.
So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.
Hope this helps.
December 10, 2012, 8:20 am
Like everything, "It all depends". If you want a 2002, the only way to drive one is to buy one that's out of warranty.
The BMW mechanical stuff doesn't bother me (well, not too much). But the electronics took a step forward (or backward) in complexity and serviceability from the E46 to the E9x.
My E91 has had multiple electronic poltergeists and required several software updates and reprogramming. That's difficult to do without visiting the dealer.
(Since the F31 will not be available in the US with a manual transmission, I won't buy one -- and I have mixed feelings about that. The E91 is a lot of fun to drive. The maintenance issues have been an annoyance, however. I may go Japanese for my next DD, just so long as I can get my manual transmission fix.)
December 10, 2012, 8:57 am
BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question
For me
BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman
My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker
Si diff people diff view
December 10, 2012, 9:23 am
In SE PA where I live, I see older BMWs driving on the roads everywhere I look, so many people apparently do keep their cars out of warranty.
December 10, 2012, 9:30 am
Ever own a Chevy or a Volvo out of warranty?
Tears. Lots of tears.
December 10, 2012, 9:39 am
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
Answer these three questions:
1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?
2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?
3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?
BJ
December 10, 2012, 9:43 am
I think it's more important to say:
Are you so lazy and uninformed that you must take your out of warranty BMW to a BMW dealership? If so, then don't own a BMW out of warranty.
If you enjoy some basic DIY and have a good indy BMW specialist, then it's no big deal.
From a financial viewpoint: I spend less per year to maintain a 11 year old M5 (one of the most expensive BMWs to own) than most people in the f30 forum spend each year paying for depreciation.
So alot of people who want their newer car warranty to avoid a sudden financial stress are actually paying more in their cars lost value each year than they would if they simply accepted an out of warranty car.
Joe
P.s. I've owned my m5 for 12k miles and it's rolling over 115k miles. I've spent ~$1800 so far, including about $1200 as soon as I bought it to replace the worn parts identified in my pre purchase inspection. Since then, it's been quite a fine ride.
December 10, 2012, 10:00 am
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.
I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
December 10, 2012, 10:13 am
I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
December 10, 2012, 10:21 am
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.
I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:
1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
December 10, 2012, 10:25 am
I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
December 10, 2012, 10:26 am
I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:
1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
December 10, 2012, 10:28 am
So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.
Hope this helps.
December 10, 2012, 10:38 am
Gonna chime in on the recent comments about Mike Miller's schedule. I used to be a huge proponent of that schedule and felt that BMW was sacrificing long-term owners (or owners of older BMWs) by switching to their "maintenance free!" schedule. And I'm a big oil analysis guy who watches closely the results.
While I don't believe the infrequent lubricant changes are good for the car, the fact is that we have plenty of high performance, high mileage, hard used BMWs now going on 10 years after the longer maintenance intervals were introduced. We are not observing a huge spike in failed engines, failed transmissions, or failed differentials. Cooling systems in the more recent BMWs are performing at the same rates as ones in the 90s and early 2000s were (which was not great, even with more frequent maintenance).
I have seen more BMWs with dirty engines, no doubt. But, for whatever it's worth, BMW seemed to hit the mark on less frequent maintenance - it didn't destroy their cars reliability.
I would not hesitate to own an Naturally aspirated BMW made in the last 10 years provided it passed a thorough pre-purchase inspection and showed signs of being well cared for (i.e. even treadwear, non-excessive suspension wear, smooth running engine and trans)
December 10, 2012, 10:51 am
I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.
December 10, 2012, 10:57 am
Interesting as to how polarized the perspectives are with DIY types seemingly confident out of warranty. Makes me want to get a fun BMW out of warranty I appreciated in the past.
As to the more complicated electronics, at first I figured it wouldn't be that different than keeping my home theatre running. But I guess we don't really know that yet.
December 10, 2012, 11:06 am
December 10, 2012, 11:08 am
December 10, 2012, 11:16 am
Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.
The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.
Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.
December 10, 2012, 11:19 am
I like to fix my own cars once out of warranty, and the modern BMW's make that increasingly difficult.
I feel this way about pretty much all cars today.
December 10, 2012, 11:39 am
Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.
The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.
Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.
December 10, 2012, 11:51 am
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
December 10, 2012, 12:06 pm
cheers
vern
December 10, 2012, 12:10 pm
Some Porsche models require more attention than others. Some owners enjoy wrenching and others might but don't have the time. Also, note Porsche 911 owner demographics. The invoice for a dealer oil change or minor service from a Porsche dealer might make a Hyundai owner faint.
December 10, 2012, 12:14 pm
I think I'll agree with the apparent consensus here that it depends. It depends a lot even on the specific car you buy, and how you buy.
Basically, if you were to buy new and keep the car then I think the odds are better that you can continue to drive the car well out of warranty. I'd definitely want to exceed the BMW recommended maintenance schedule by doing my own "in-between" oil changes (which I have done on my 135i). But even then there's a couple of caveats.
Let me use my 135i as my example; would I own this car out of warranty? At the moment I am thinking no. My car has an incredibly complex electronic system (the entire car does, not just the iDrive stuff) coupled to a relatively high-strung turbocharged engine that to-date does not really have enough "real-world" stats to say that it won't suffer some critical turbo failure at some point. It's also still a bit early to say that it will never have a problem like the N54's HPFP problem... while the stats to-date are good, it took a good couple of years for the HPFP problem to show some significant noise.
The engine is also coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. Now, I think it's a thing of beauty from a technical perspective. I think it's an incredible piece of technology that I love... but the longevity and repair costs are something I don't think there are any really good numbers on. The DCT has only been used in a few relatively low-volume model BMW's and as such there really isn't enough data to make a determination on long-term life. Now, I happen to think clutch life in this might well be better than a torque converter in an automatic simply because there's two of them and it's a consistent level of wear and tear from the system itself... but even then I wonder how much all that is going to cost to replace when the clutches need replaced.
I have similar issues with the AWD X-Drive system (though not on my car, obviously)... it's very complex and again used on a relatively small portion of BMW's sold... so I am dubious about the longevity of the system. It's complicated compared to say Audi's Quattro and Subaru's AWD because from an engineering perspective it really is a retrofit onto a RWD car. I'd be wary of that too.
Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.
The modern x28i? Well, except the 1'er which still comes with that marvelous I6 I would probably pass; the engine is new and at least as complex as the N55 if not moreso. I'd be VERY wary of owning that beyond the warranty because there simply aren't the miles on that engine to prove it's longevity.
Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic. There are fewer and fewer things you can do to repair a modern automobile yourself, and it's becoming harder and less cost-effective even for independent shops to make a go of it without investing 10's of thousands of dollars in computer equipment for each manufacturer. Even then they don't always get it right. The last car BMW made that was really "shadetree-friendly" was the E46. Even the E60 was not a good car to try to work on yourself, and as of the advent of the E90 and newer it's almost impossible to do a lot of the work yourself effectively.
Hope that all helps
December 10, 2012, 12:17 pm
cheers
vern
December 10, 2012, 12:23 pm
December 10, 2012, 12:54 pm
December 10, 2012, 1:18 pm
December 10, 2012, 1:37 pm
For me
BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman
My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker
Si diff people diff view
I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.
Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
December 10, 2012, 1:47 pm
If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
December 10, 2012, 1:48 pm
For me
BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman
My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker
Si diff people diff view
BMW = Bring More Women
December 10, 2012, 1:57 pm
December 10, 2012, 2:09 pm
I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.
And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.
That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
December 10, 2012, 3:05 pm
On Porsche: They are incredibly reliable cars and very surprisingly DIY friendly. I gave my boxster a 60k mile major service for like $230 with OEM or equivalent parts from Pelican Parts. I replaced an engine mount for like $130 using simple hand tools. Coil packs were cheap and easily replaced, etc....
They are surprisingly easy to own cars (financially and mechanically) if you aren't stupid - at least any model between 1978-2005 AFAIK.
...
Lease vs. buy vs. buy pre-owned vs. buy older rages on forever. I like 10+ year old sports cars (m5, 911, others) because you can swap them around with very little out of pocket expense and get some really phenomenal cars. Heck, if I had bought a 1995-1998 911 a few years ago I'd probably be ahead right now considering they have appreciated.
If your decision is really coming down to $1000-$1500 difference a year, you probably should be staying away from BMW/Porsche/Other Expensive marques altogether.
I look at my m5 as one of my favorite toys who may someday ask me to take $3k out of my bank account, set it on fire, and go on with life as if nothing changed.
December 10, 2012, 3:51 pm
The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.
I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.
The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
December 10, 2012, 3:54 pm
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Bimmer App
cheers
vern
I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.
Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.
That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
December 10, 2012, 4:00 pm
I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.
The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
December 10, 2012, 4:02 pm
December 10, 2012, 4:05 pm
I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.
If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
December 10, 2012, 4:08 pm
December 10, 2012, 4:10 pm
I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.
My buddy's '98 Z3 has been bulletproof and he's around 110k miles or so.
December 10, 2012, 4:11 pm
[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241180]I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.
If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]
Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
December 10, 2012, 4:14 pm
The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.
PS: I negotiated for 3 extended warranties with the dealer when we picked up a new 2011.5 M3 sedan. I got a volume discount deal on all three.
December 10, 2012, 4:19 pm
The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.
December 10, 2012, 4:27 pm
Looking into things this a.m., I'm now very interested in say a 2007 911, maybe with a 997.2.
December 10, 2012, 4:38 pm
[QUOTE=Alpine300ZHP;7241193]
If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]
Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
Dont get me wrong, I am all for being frugal when you need to be frugal. I did it for 10 years. And it allowed me to finally get to a point in my life when I could afford the new car smell with all the bells and whistles. I just think if you are spending more than a 1k a year in repairs...you should start looking at a new vehicle. (obviously those with rolls, ferraris, lambos etc are excluded as an oil change could cost close to that
December 10, 2012, 4:56 pm
[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241254]
Yes but if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car, get something that costs you on average 300 bucks a year in repairs and maintenance. Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS. Might as well save 1200-2700 bucks a year.
Dont get me wrong, I am all for being frugal when you need to be frugal. I did it for 10 years. And it allowed me to finally get to a point in my life when I could afford the new car smell with all the bells and whistles. I just think if you are spending more than a 1k a year in repairs...you should start looking at a new vehicle. (obviously those with rolls, ferraris, lambos etc are excluded as an oil change could cost close to that
December 10, 2012, 5:02 pm
[QUOTE=beden1;7241290]
When out driving around this weekend, I was thinking that the E46 still looks great. They definitely don't look like a POS to me.
December 10, 2012, 5:12 pm
If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
December 10, 2012, 5:16 pm
December 10, 2012, 5:39 pm
if you had say a really really great condition E36 , its like a really great classic type car and it gets props.
if you have a really great condition say E90 2006 325i, which is 7 years old, it looks exactly like a 1 year old E90, so people think you are a baller in a pretty recent 3 series (since BMW does 7 years unlike the 5 or less other cars are).
if you have a 1998 corolla in perfect condition no one cares. if you have a 1998 LExus ES in great condition ITS STILL AN ANCIENT LEXUS ES
December 10, 2012, 5:52 pm
Answer these three questions:
1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?
2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?
3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?
BJ
2) Nope
3) I'm going to go with yes. In my next car fun factor and manual tranny are important. My accord is a bit boring even though it's a V6. Brand name isn't a big deal to me. The other car I'm looking at is a BRZ and I'm patiently awaiting the WRX redesign.
December 10, 2012, 6:25 pm
I am talking the cars that are clearly a couple generations old. No matter what they look like old cars. I like using a valet at a nice hotel or restaurant as the perfect example. A 10 yr old BMW will go right next to the 10 year old VW. No matter how cherry you may keep it.
In no ways am I dissing the decision to keep your car for many years. In fact it is probably the smartest financial decision car wise out there. Just once it is costing you 1500k a year or more to keep it running it might be time to come up with a new vehicle.
December 10, 2012, 6:31 pm
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
December 10, 2012, 6:32 pm
The car was 1 year old with 5K miles on it. It had a sticker $101K. I bought it for $62K.
I owned it for 2 years and put over 20K miles on it. I sold it for $62K...
Wish those deals were around today...
December 10, 2012, 6:48 pm
So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.
Hope this helps.
December 10, 2012, 7:38 pm
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.
As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
I must say, though, that the E90 was a fabulous car that I loved owning. And BMW took care of some items that broke right after the warranty ended as goodwill. That reduced my costs. Believe it or not, to get the turn signal clicking back (it had failed), BMW replaced the entire instrument panel at a retail cost of $700 for the part alone. That's a good example of the technology we all love in BMWs and why they are so expensive to fix. In a Honda, the clicking noise is a side-effect of a $5 solenoid.
Still, when you are seven or eight years out and looking at normal wear and tear repairs and maintenance that can cost 10% of the value of the car, you wish you owned a Japanese car which due to volume has both inexpensive parts and many independent shops that can competently repair it.
So, while I am planning on keeping my 2009 Civic another five or six years (it's my winter car -- I don't drive the F30 in the snow or, truth be told, when it rains) I won't be keeping the BMW past the warranty.
December 10, 2012, 8:28 pm
I'd be scared to own any 1st year BMW. '92 3 series, '99 3 series, 2006 3 series . . . All trouble.
December 10, 2012, 8:36 pm
December 10, 2012, 8:58 pm
BJ
December 10, 2012, 9:17 pm
I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:
1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.
I would have no problem owning an out of warranty E46 (and did). An E9x, probably not...an F30, no; at least not until the small displacement turbos get 3-5 years on them.
Having said that both our E90 and E91 were pretty reliable. The E92 has had one issue, the ubiquitous idle control valve, but that might be unique to the S65.
December 10, 2012, 10:54 pm
[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241442] Yes but if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car, get something that costs you on average 300 bucks a year in repairs and maintenance. Whether you pull up in a 99 corolla or a 99 bmw people are gonna think its a POS. Might as well save 1200-2700 bucks a year.
QUOTE]
I guess it's for the same reason you've decided to "personalize" your car to seperate yourself in some way from your surroundings. I could comfortably go out and get a new M3 or whatever. But I don't want an m3.
I'm a car connoisseur and my preference is classic, very powerful, and rare. Just not a combination that lends itself to new cars.
Now for my wife? Sure - f30 all the way. Don't know if she's going to love it - guess we'll find that out if the wagon comes in manuals trans. If not, it's off to test drive a Porsche Cayenne - which by golly, offers an honest to God manual transmission'd SUV.
December 11, 2012, 12:49 am
I've mostly owned Japanese cars and they are very reliable even if I did most of the fluid changes...at 10 years old the only thing that had to be replaced in the engine area of my RSX is the starter...I still have original clutch, brake pads, rotors, belts, changed both headlights once and the front driver blinker recently burned out.
German cars are more complicated and are not as reliable...my wife's car is a good example...these were the issues/items changed thru the 6 years of ownership...serpentine belt, brake pads, brake squeak, balance shaft (dealer paid half the cost), coolant hose replacement (trip interrupted), power steering reservoir replaced, at least 6x changed front and back bulbs.
Both are from normal driving, sometimes spirited but not to abuse and good maintenance.
Through 2500+ miles and 2.5 months, my F30 brakes squeak (I'm not surprised) and I had the dealer check (reproduced) and worked on it once. I'll bring it back soon and if they can't fix it I'm informing BMW HQ.
Somehow I feel safer in a German car and my F30 is definitely more fun and very responsive.
Will I keep keep my F30 after warranty? I want to but I'll have to wait and see.
December 11, 2012, 5:30 am
I keep my cars for ten years and I drive more than 20k per year so I will let you know! I still have my y2k maxima with 216,000 miles on her. One radiator, alternator, two batteries, and a thermostat to date. My 2011 328 has 33850 miles and I will be out of warrenty the latter part of 2013.
December 11, 2012, 9:29 am
December 11, 2012, 10:14 am
That said, it has a classic look and imo will never appear dated. early 2000 bmws will always look good. It's the asian flame surfaced design cars that look stale a year after being released.
December 11, 2012, 11:08 am
That said, it has a classic look and imo will never appear dated. early 2000 bmws will always look good. It's the asian flame surfaced design cars that look stale a year after being released.
It blows my mind that we are at 2012 and counting back is getting to be distressing. Yes, 2004 would be 8 years ago, not 2006. lol. I am so smart S-M-R-T.
In fact I used to sell BMWS back in the early to mid 90s so I have been part of the world for a long time. No offense to any e46 owners but I hated that body style and thus have blocked that time period from my life
Off topic, how scary is it when you hear a song and think that it is from just a couple years ago and then you find out it is from say 2000 and you realize that is 12+ years ago. Friggin depressing.
December 11, 2012, 11:31 am
No offense to any e46 owners but I hated that body style and thus have blocked that time period from my life
I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.
It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.
The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.
Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".
BJ
December 11, 2012, 11:59 am
I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.
It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.
The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.
Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".
BJ
December 11, 2012, 12:19 pm
I would never own newer cars out of warrenty unless you can afford some hefty bills. Or its a Toyota Camry. or Honda Civic. The more tech that goes in to these cars the more crazy they get with the repair bills.
I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.
I know some people are lucky and I am not going to say they are always going to break but if they do...watch out. Car dealers laugh at the people who buy used (older- non CPO) Merc's, Audi's, BMW's, Jag's, and Landrover's. They feel so special that they could get a Luxury car and then boom... 5k or worse repair bill and they have to sell the car for peanuts because they can not afford to fix it.
I heard a BMW owner say "they should sell used BMW's for $1 because the repair bills cost more then the payments!" Granted I know that is not always the case.
December 11, 2012, 1:46 pm
The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
December 11, 2012, 1:55 pm
December 11, 2012, 5:59 pm
I would say don't be a half@ss when it comes to maintenance. The car will make you pay if you try cutting too many corners.
Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App
December 11, 2012, 6:15 pm
The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
December 11, 2012, 7:07 pm
Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted. I see a lot of comments from people here who've never owned a BMW more than 3 years old but are scared of owning a used one.
December 11, 2012, 10:49 pm
Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.
As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
A new car depreciates 15% in the first year. On a $50k car, that comes out to $7,500 of "hidden" cost in the first year of ownership. Assuming a consistent 15% depreciation, even in the fourth and last year of warranty, your car will lose $4,605.93 in value.
In the fifth year (the first non-warranty year), the car will lose $3,915.05, and as each year progresses it will lose a progressively smaller amount. For the fifth year of ownership to be less cost-effective than a brand new car, you would have to incur over $3584.95 in expenses. In the sixth and subsequent years, the expense bill would have to be even higher to make it less cost-effective than a new car.
December 11, 2012, 11:04 pm
oops
December 11, 2012, 11:16 pm
I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.
It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.
The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.
Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".
BJ
Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.
So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.
BJ
December 11, 2012, 11:59 pm
Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.
So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.
BJ
December 12, 2012, 2:29 am
December 12, 2012, 2:42 am
First of all, if we are talking about out of ownership until say 100K with a good mix of highway driving, chances are you will not need any major repairs.
Regardless of whether you will go 100K or 200K or more, if you are going to service your car at dealerships, it may not be worth it. This is true of Honda/Toyota as well. People think they are much cheaper, but they are not. They are only a little cheaper, and certainly not for everything. Someone mentioned failed ignition coils. They are $100 a pop for one of the latest Infinities if you want to stick with OEM. That's a lot more than for VAG coils. One of the dampers of a friend's Honda Pilot was leaking and was replaced under warranty for supposedly $700. That is exactly what I paid to have four Bilsteins installed on my car (labor and parts) at my indy. If you go to the dealer, take a jar of lubricant with you. They should be used only for special problems such as electronic sensors. For most things, indies, even non-specialists can handle it.
December 12, 2012, 2:45 am
December 12, 2012, 2:46 am
December 12, 2012, 2:48 am
Btw, many of the newer German engines don't need timing belt jobs anymore. If you have a Honda, which will typically have an interference engine, the timing belt job will cost you a petty penny.
December 12, 2012, 2:54 am
Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.
As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
I'm a slow worker and it takes me a hour to change my own oil. Costs me about $60. If I want to have it done it costs about $100. Every 7,500 miles is about twice a year, $200. Old days with dyno juice about $25 four times a year, every 3,000 miles and only 12,000 miles/year, $100 and those were the really old days.
Brakes - $250 in quality parts per axle. Granted not everyone can do it, but it's really not a hard diy. It's dirty and somewhat time consuming, but it's actually pretty straight forward.
December 12, 2012, 3:03 am
So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted.
Here is my own experience with own and family cars, which given the few data points is statistically meaningless, but here it is nonetheless:
1980s Corolla:
- tires shot by 26K because of horrendous factory alignment
- muffler all rusted out and punctured by 46K. New OEM part alone was $180, which was lots of dough back then. A literally back alley shop welded some third party muffler for $40 which lasted until I donated the car with 228K miles on it. Some OEM quality there
- radiator replaced by 60K, with much better third party brand that lasted the life of the car.
- rack and pinion steering was leaking buckets and had to be replace at barely over 100K.
- engine started burning oil a little before 100K.
- "major service" at dealer used to cost $200-300 (again, this was a long time ago).
1998 Camry: started burning oil before 100K. window motor died. Radiator showed micro-cracks and was replaced to the tune of $400 (OEM part). When it was time to do shocks, timing belt + whole works, I decided it was not confidence inspiring and it was not worth it. Yes, for a Camry! (But it was worth it for my VW) We dumped the Camry at Carmax for an inflated $6000 with about 110-120K miles on it.
1997 Accord: paint peel, lousy brakes, dead auto transmission (Honda picked only half the bill).
2000 Odyssey: full tranny replacement, fortunately under extended warranty.
December 12, 2012, 3:10 am
Btwy, here is something I realized.
Take a 15K Civic and a 60K BMW. Look at most maintenance/repair items. I think you would find that they would be maybe 1.25 to at most 2 times more for the BMW (not at dealers, obviously), not 4 times more. So from that perspective, it may actually make more sense to hang on to the expensive car longer and just toss the cheap car like a disposable item.
December 12, 2012, 3:33 am
AFAICT expensive dealer servicing is industry wide now, the business model of 'break even on the purchase, make money on the service'
Some more expensive than others, basically here in Oz everything but parts for Falcons and Commodores are imported so are ridiculously expensive. You are simply mad if you service dealer (e.g. fuel pump for my E34, genuine $513, OEM Bosch $185, some other OEM I didnt buy $135)
And will someone please mention that Camrys and Corollas have so little in common (4 wheels perhaps) with a well sorted decent spec euro (i.e. not entry level, sorry 316ti and A-class owners you dont drive real BMWs/MBs). Different leagues, of course there will be different costs involved. I think my $$ has got me a hell of a lot of car in my E34 540i, plus there is lots of rep around for oldskool BMWs.
Sense in maintenance saves dollars in fixes
December 12, 2012, 11:40 am
Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.
So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.
BJ
December 12, 2012, 11:50 am
Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.
(snip)
-James
San Francisco, CA
December 12, 2012, 12:19 pm
December 12, 2012, 12:24 pm
....
December 12, 2012, 12:55 pm
My family has owned five BMW's, still have four of them and they have all been great automobiles. My first was an '01 X5 3.0i that I sold with 118K miles. I had some minor repair bills outside of warranty (mostly worn suspension parts), but nothing major. Its new owner says it is still going strong after an additional 3+ years. Its repalcement is an '09 X5 3.5d and that vehicle has been fabulous. It only has 40K miles on it, so too new to report on repair bills.
My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!
Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!
In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
December 12, 2012, 1:33 pm
My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!
Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!
In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
December 12, 2012, 1:39 pm
Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
December 12, 2012, 1:42 pm
-James
San Francisco, CA
December 12, 2012, 1:57 pm
Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
December 12, 2012, 1:59 pm
December 12, 2012, 2:21 pm
December 12, 2012, 9:22 pm
Like they're rather pay $600 every month on a lease, than $600 twice a year on maintenance. There's no logic behind that thinking.
We all make decisions based on experience, wants, and risk. I was a risk manager and can tell you there is logic in knowing your cost of ownership rather than rolling the dice.
December 12, 2012, 9:25 pm
Because if you don't, if you cut it down to a realistic 5 years or 6 years, the math goes in the favor of the recurring 3 year leases under full warranty rather quickly.
BJ
December 12, 2012, 9:35 pm
We all make decisions based on experience, wants, and risk. I was a risk manager and can tell you there is logic in knowing your cost of ownership rather than rolling the dice.
Let me explain.
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.
BJ
December 12, 2012, 9:46 pm
Thanks for all of the replies. Lots of differing views in this thread. Let me add another layer though. I'm thinking of buying a used F30 as to not take the hit on depreciation seeing as I intend to own the car for a long time. So the question is whether or not I can get an extended warranty if I buy a non-CPO car? For instance, if I find what I want at a Carmax instead of a BMW dealer. It'll be a task to find though since I don't want a car with more than 30k miles on it.
December 12, 2012, 9:56 pm
Consider spending the next 10 years in 3 leased Honda Accord's for less money than spending the next 10 years in 1 aging BMW 3 Series. You'll get every feature they offer, you'll be fully under warranty, and you'll have the excitement of a new car every 36 months and the flexibility to get into an expensive German luxury car if your lifestyle allows it.
Trying to beat the system doesn't work. You'll just wind up in an old car that's out of warranty and costing you big money. In 2022 you'll be sitting on a porch with your old dog at your feet and a warm beer in your hand gazing at your dented F30 and doing the math in your head and realizing that leasing 3 new cars would have saved you money and headaches and you wasted a decade driving an old car that you didn't love and spent more for that privilege.
I know. I did it myself.
BJ
December 12, 2012, 10:00 pm
Let me explain.
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.
BJ
Can Afford It
Business Tax Purposes
Like New Tech and Cars
It’s Cheaper for Me than Buying IT
Fixed Cost of Ownership (No Surprises)
Yes there are a lot of crappy leases out there and there are even worse car purchases. Most people will grossly over pay for a car because they believe the salesman or are too lazy to travel/email another dealership sales associate. One must lease/buy for their situation not what others do or say. There is No One Size Fits All.
December 12, 2012, 11:24 pm
Seriously, the GTI comes with a great engine, great handling, xenons, leather, sports suspension, sunroof, great stereo, and plenty of room for four, all at $30K. If you're on the fence or feel like you're really stretching financially, it's a no brainer. It's just not worth being "car rich" and "cash poor". You'll sleep better at night.
December 12, 2012, 11:27 pm
December 12, 2012, 11:28 pm
Seriously, the GTI comes with a great engine, great handling, xenons, leather, sports suspension, sunroof, great stereo, and plenty of room for four, all at $30K. If you're on the fence or feel like you're really stretching financially, it's a no brainer. It's just not worth being "car rich" and "cash poor". You'll sleep better at night.
December 12, 2012, 11:33 pm
Let me explain.
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.
BJ
I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
December 13, 2012, 12:03 am
I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
December 13, 2012, 12:17 am
Sorry, but this statement makes no sense whatsoever, even coming from you!
So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.
That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.
Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 12:51 am
Lease makes sense for following:
- Those eligible for tax write off as a part of their business
- Those who like to get a new car every 3 years
- Those who prefer hassle free car ownership over savings
- Those who want to drive a car a bit more expensive than they can afford
For those wanting to keep the car for 5-6 years or so and drive under 20K, they come out ahead with buying. They might have to deal with some repair bills but chances are that the bills won't be very substantial in the 1-2 years they are out of warranty.
Never did the math for a 10 year buy. I think that's too long to keep a car, easpecially if that's your main car. Styles and tech get outdated too soon these days. And the cost of repair of these fun imports just take the fun out of it.
December 13, 2012, 1:52 am
- Those eligible for tax write off as a part of their business
- Those who like to get a new car every 3 years
- Those who prefer hassle free car ownership over savings
- Those who want to drive a car a bit more expensive than they can afford
For those wanting to keep the car for 5-6 years or so and drive under 20K, they come out ahead with buying. They might have to deal with some repair bills but chances are that the bills won't be very substantial in the 1-2 years they are out of warranty.
Never did the math for a 10 year buy. I think that's too long to keep a car, easpecially if that's your main car. Styles and tech get outdated too soon these days. And the cost of repair of these fun imports just take the fun out of it.
December 13, 2012, 2:31 am
December 13, 2012, 3:25 am
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford.
Or maybe they are even just stingy. It's not always a question of affordability.
.
December 13, 2012, 3:29 am
Consider spending the next 10 years in 3 leased Honda Accord's for less money than spending the next 10 years in 1 aging BMW 3 Series. You'll get every feature they offer, you'll be fully under warranty, and you'll have the excitement of a new car every 36 months and the flexibility to get into an expensive German luxury car if your lifestyle allows it.
December 13, 2012, 7:21 am
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford.
As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.
I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
December 13, 2012, 7:27 am
Let me explain.
Someone who buys a $42,000 BMW and keeps it for 10 years is actually driving a car that costs $378 a month. See, he spent $756 a month for the first 5 years of the loan so he feels like one of us, but the truth is he really is a budget-car driver, should be in a nice Kia or some other $378 car he can truly afford.
Those of us who can sustain $599 monthly payments for 20-30 years are in the right car. It's a BMW, it's a luxury car. Those who can't sustain that, those who trick the system by buying-and-keeping forever are just cheating their way into the roundel, driving a car they truly can't afford. And that's fine, by the way. So long as they don't come into threads like these lecturing those of us who bought the right cars for the right reasons. That type of hypocrisy isn't of any value.
BJ
As to your point, there are many who lease who can't afford it, they lease cause they want a BMW and can't afford $800/month, it's that simple. Maybe not so many BF members, but in the general public they are everywhere.
So sure, some buy cause they can't afford to lease, but they're likely way outnumbered by the ones who lease cause they can't afford to buy.
December 13, 2012, 9:16 am
As to your point, there are many who lease who can't afford it, they lease cause they want a BMW and can't afford $800/month, it's that simple. Maybe not so many BF members, but in the general public they are everywhere.
So sure, some buy cause they can't afford to lease, but they're likely way outnumbered by the ones who lease cause they can't afford to buy.
You keep referencing a spend of $800 a month on your BMW but you didn't.
Your car is an '04. Assuming you bought in '03. Just because you paid $800 a month for the first 5 years doesn't mean you can afford an $800 monthly payment. The car is 9 years old. That's a $375 monthly payment, not an $800 monthly payment.
The point of this isn't to belittle what you're doing- it's great for you, couldn't be happier. You're happy, I'm happy. But when it comes to this type of conversation and this type of debate for buyers/leasers of brand new BMW's you don't have any value here because you aren't like us. None of us are keeping our F30's for 9-10 years. We budget ourselves at $600 a month for the next 10-30 years, not $375. Your advice and perspective are noted but not needed.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 9:21 am
As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.
I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
What we're talking about is perspective. Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years. And in that 'average' example, leasing and buying are practically the same cost, and if different we're talking only a few hundred dollars.
So when an interloper arises who keeps his car for 9-10 years and starts throwing around his opinions it makes no sense. It's like a Mets fan in a Yankees forum. That type of long-term buyer is trying to game the system, trying to squeek every last dollar out of BMW. The rest of us aren't doing that. 3-4 years, we pay what we pay, we move onto the next BMW.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 9:48 am
December 13, 2012, 9:53 am
We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 9:57 am
We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.
BJ
F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
December 13, 2012, 10:08 am
We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.
BJ
You should be happy that the F30 is not considered a luxury sedan as the resale value for luxury sedans are the worst in any car category. Your lease payment would be much higher due to the lower residual value.
December 13, 2012, 10:15 am
Wilkpedia examples of luxury:
Luxury good, an economic good or service for which demand increases more than proportionally as income rises
Luxury tax, tax on products not considered essential, such as expensive cars
Luxury vehicle, expensive automobiles
Luxury trains, expensive tourist trains
Luxury yacht, expensive privately owned, professionally crewed yacht
Luxury real estate, niche real estate market dealing with the highest economic group of property buyers
Luxury resort, exclusive vacation facilities
Luxury magazine, magazines devoted to fine craft and luxury goods
Some of the key words for luxury: expensive, exclusive, niche product, product not considered essential.
December 13, 2012, 10:16 am
So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.
That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.
Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.
BJ
Luxury cars are meant to be kept for however long you want them. If you like the car, you keep it, as simple as that. You don't get to decide how long someone wants to keep a car.
For that person who bought a $50k car and kept it 2x, that person bought a $50k car. Not sure why you decided to sleep during math class. The car loan gets paid back in 3-5 years just like everyone else, after that it's just incidentals (maintenance and repairs). You don't get to average out the cost of the car over the length of the ownership because that is not what was ACTUALLY paid. They, just like you made the high monthly payments, so why are you trying to insinuate they aren't capable of affording?
Got some bourgeois class fetish eh?
December 13, 2012, 10:27 am
F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.
Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 10:36 am
Luxury cars are meant to be kept for however long you want them. If you like the car, you keep it, as simple as that. You don't get to decide how long someone wants to keep a car.
For that person who bought a $50k car and kept it 2x, that person bought a $50k car. Not sure why you decided to sleep during math class. The car loan gets paid back in 3-5 years just like everyone else, after that it's just incidentals (maintenance and repairs). You don't get to average out the cost of the car over the length of the ownership because that is not what was ACTUALLY paid. They, just like you made the high monthly payments, so why are you trying to insinuate they aren't capable of affording?
Got some bourgeois class fetish eh?
I am not judging the car you drive, merely pointing out that the economics you are used to are not what's being discussed here.
Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years.
Compared to me, since 2003 I've leased and have been in 4 different cars at an average monthly payment of $600.
For you, since 2003 you've owned and have been in 1 car at an average monthly payment of $360.
There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's just that you can't relate to the average buyer/leaser who is in a car for 3-4 years. You're very different. You bought your car to keep forever, so you're not budgeted for the true $600 value of a BMW. Instead, you're budgeted to a $360 payment akin to a Toyota. So when you and I talk, we're talking on different planets. I'm the BMW customer, you are not.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 10:43 am
I'm also still confused about how you can call a $42,000 car a luxury car?
Or maybe they are even just stingy. It's not always a question of affordability.
.
As far as I know there is no law requiring someone to spend all their money. Thus if someone keeps a car for 10 years they may be doing it because they want to, not because they can't afford to do something else.
I know a number of folks with a *hell* of a lot of money who choose to be frugal in some aspects of their lives. In part that has helped them accumulate their money. Works for me.
F30 = sports sedan
7 Series il = luxury sports sedan
December 13, 2012, 11:04 am
I am not judging the car you drive, merely pointing out that the economics you are used to are not what's being discussed here.
Over 60% of BMW owners lease. The remaining 40% take out a 5 year loan and bail on it early, get into a new car in Year 4. So when we get into these "lease vs. buy" debates we're focusing on the typical BMW owner that's in and out of their current rides in 3-4 years.
Compared to me, since 2003 I've leased and have been in 4 different cars at an average monthly payment of $600.
For you, since 2003 you've owned and have been in 1 car at an average monthly payment of $360.
There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's just that you can't relate to the average buyer/leaser who is in a car for 3-4 years. You're very different. You bought your car to keep forever, so you're not budgeted for the true $600 value of a BMW. Instead, you're budgeted to a $360 payment akin to a Toyota. So when you and I talk, we're talking on different planets. I'm the BMW customer, you are not.
BJ
He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.
December 13, 2012, 11:10 am
I do think "luxury" is a relative term and depends in part on income. Some people would consider inside running water a luxury.
If everyone here disclosed his or her income, it would make it easier to understand what others mean by the term.
I'll start. I make less than BJ, so clearly a three series is a luxury (and during Sandy, so was running water).
December 13, 2012, 11:13 am
So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted. I see a lot of comments from people here who've never owned a BMW more than 3 years old but are scared of owning a used one.
December 13, 2012, 11:16 am
He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.
Not surprising. Other than for tax reasons, why would somebody lease or finance something that isn't expensive for them?
December 13, 2012, 11:20 am
The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.
Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 11:23 am
Instead of writing BMW a check for $50,000 in August, I've got that money invested and am slowly making payments of $539 a month.
Also, to many people, a $539 monthly payment for a car is no different than any other utility like a cell phone bill, cable bill, gas and electric bill, etc. I don't prepay 7 years worth of electric bills, not sure why I would prepay 7 years of a car when, financially speaking, it's the same exact thing.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 11:26 am
True or false: A $50,000 car is viewed as a luxury to 80% of the American population.
True or false: BMW makes a version of the 3 Series called the Luxury line.
True or false: Performance enthusiasts don't want to hear that they are driving luxury cars because it upsets them.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 11:51 am
True or false: A $50,000 car is viewed as a luxury to 80% of the American population.
True or false: BMW makes a version of the 3 Series called the Luxury line.
True or false: Performance enthusiasts don't want to hear that they are driving luxury cars because it upsets them.
BJ
- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker
- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
December 13, 2012, 12:05 pm
He also said that there are more customers (at their dealership) who pay cash than take out loans.
December 13, 2012, 12:13 pm
Ppl dont buy 7series and S classes anymore do they? I know rich guys who lease gt3s for the min mileage track the poop out of it the return. Good way to always have an awesome track car. I wouldnt buy a car unless it will be a classic or the potential to. I would buy a 1m right now. The f30 for me is a temp
December 13, 2012, 12:14 pm
December 13, 2012, 12:23 pm
December 13, 2012, 1:25 pm
Instead of writing BMW a check for $50,000 in August, I've got that money invested and am slowly making payments of $539 a month.
Also, to many people, a $539 monthly payment for a car is no different than any other utility like a cell phone bill, cable bill, gas and electric bill, etc. I don't prepay 7 years worth of electric bills, not sure why I would prepay 7 years of a car when, financially speaking, it's the same exact thing.
BJ
As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
December 13, 2012, 1:54 pm
So if one buys a luxury car and keeps it for 10 years one is actually buying a $25,000 budget car. And worse, it's a budget car that's defeatured to begin with and will age ungracefully as old status-symbols tend to do.
That's what's forgotten in these "purchase-and-keep" debates; it's not the same buyer, not the same customer as the leaser. People who deliberately purchase a $50,000 car and keep it 2x it's appropriate lifespan are really buying a $25,000 car. People who are paying $600 a month for 5 years and are keeping the car for 10 are really paying $299 a month.
Leasers and buyers can't have rational conversations as a result. Two different people in two very different places.
BJ
When you lease short term you're going to pay the biggest part of the car's depreciation the rest of your life. At least with a car that's paid for (and older) the depreciation plateaus. There's no reason to assume a BMW is going to fall apart 2 minutes out of warranty if maintained.
I didn't keep my M3 longer as I wanted a better DD.
December 13, 2012, 2:19 pm
We own luxury sport sedans. You are rattling off the luxury boats. We drive luxury cars, just not the yacht versions.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 2:23 pm
You keep referencing a spend of $800 a month on your BMW but you didn't.
Your car is an '04. Assuming you bought in '03. Just because you paid $800 a month for the first 5 years doesn't mean you can afford an $800 monthly payment. The car is 9 years old. That's a $375 monthly payment, not an $800 monthly payment.
The point of this isn't to belittle what you're doing- it's great for you, couldn't be happier. You're happy, I'm happy. But when it comes to this type of conversation and this type of debate for buyers/leasers of brand new BMW's you don't have any value here because you aren't like us. None of us are keeping our F30's for 9-10 years. We budget ourselves at $600 a month for the next 10-30 years, not $375. Your advice and perspective are noted but not needed.
BJ
So yeah, I think I could afford your $530/month lease payment, if I wanted to go that way.
December 13, 2012, 2:27 pm
December 13, 2012, 2:50 pm
Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.
So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.
BJ
I used to turn over cars every 1-2 years till I got my 08 Charger SRT, it was so much fun I kept it for a little over 3 years before getting bored and trading it in for my 300SRT.
The 3 Series is the best-selling luxury car.
Nothing to do with comparisons to old timer luxo-cruisers from the 1980's, everything to do with the current perception of the average American. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
BJ
December 13, 2012, 3:13 pm
What kind of car should I have bought if I paid 30k cash for a CPO 3 series?
December 13, 2012, 3:36 pm
Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.
Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.
Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.
I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.
December 13, 2012, 3:44 pm
Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.
Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.
Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.
I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.
Uggs-- No. The name alone disqualifies them.
Ribbed Condoms-- Dumb question. Goes without saying.
December 13, 2012, 6:46 pm
As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker
- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."
The E9x like you drive a less a luxury car that is a main complaint with the F30's. Rides to soft, electric steering is effortless, seats are to comfortable, power seats standard, interior feels like a full size car, full color HUD and more. The F30 is more on plane with your 535i.
December 13, 2012, 8:44 pm
The F30 is a luxury car if you don't think it is you do not know the definition of a luxury product.
"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."
The E9x like you drive a less a luxury car that is a main complaint with the F30's. Rides to soft, electric steering is effortless, seats are to comfortable, power seats standard, interior feels like a full size car, full color HUD and more. The F30 is more on plane with your 535i.
3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan
7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan
PS: I sat in an F30 yesterday in both the front and back seats. It's too cramped in the back to be a luxury car, at least in my idea of luxury. I also consider our 535xi to be a sport sedan, albeit with a bit more luxury appointments as compared to the 3 Series.
December 13, 2012, 9:06 pm
I'm a little late to the party, but I'd pretty much NEVER own one out of warranty. I' had more problems with my first BMW than my previous 5 cars (Mazda, 3 Civics and G35) combined. And my 2nd BMW hasn't been much better. Still love the car. Just hate the reliability.
December 13, 2012, 9:44 pm
3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan
7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan
PS: I sat in an F30 yesterday in both the front and back seats. It's too cramped in the back to be a luxury car, at least in my idea of luxury. I also consider our 535xi to be a sport sedan, albeit with a bit more luxury appointments as compared to the 3 Series.
Before you bought your Porsche did you research or ask the salesman what its montra is going to be.
If you think the backseat of the F30 is cramped you need to slow down on the carbs.
Montra is the flying thing Godzilla fights right?.....jk
December 13, 2012, 10:48 pm
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:
Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.
So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.
you're a short term lover
should be ... "in health or sickness.... Love forver I do" when you sign the lease
December 13, 2012, 11:51 pm
Before you bought your Porsche did you research or ask the salesman what its montra is going to be.
If you think the backseat of the F30 is cramped you need to slow down on the carbs.
Montra is the flying thing Godzilla fights right?.....jk
December 14, 2012, 12:25 am
My point was you don't rate a car by price tags or status symbols. Your a blessed man to have so many nice cars. I have drove some heaps before as I have not been born with a silverspoon. I have friends that regard their new Honda Accord a luxury car and it is to them.
December 14, 2012, 12:55 am
My point was you don't rate a car by price tags or status symbols. Your a blessed man to have so many nice cars. I have drove some heaps before as I have not been born with a silverspoon. I have friends that regard their new Honda Accord a luxury car and it is to them.
I'm 6'4"
December 14, 2012, 1:02 am
this car made me love my X5 more and more
December 14, 2012, 1:08 am
this car made me love my X5 more and more
December 14, 2012, 1:21 am
Not sure how this turned into a lease versus buy debate. I may be an anomaly, but I don't keep my cars for 10 years so I can "get into a car I can't afford". That's just a weird statement. Do you imagine that I'm eating ramen noodles the first 5 years until the car is paid off? I find a car I'm going to love and drive it. If I don't love it I'll get rid of it when the honeymoon is over. BTW, the dude that is churning through cars over the same 10 year period has gone through $150,000 worth of cars. Nothing wrong with that either. To each his own.
The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.
Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.
December 14, 2012, 8:09 am
- True, but it's just a marketing ploy that you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker
- False, because no one else is confused about number 2.
The Luxury line is not a marketing ploy; it's an option package that offers more differentiation than other packages do, has more variance to the base F30 than an M-Sport.
The confusion exists in your mind. Not only has BMW nurtured the perception of "luxury" since 1985, they've finally branded their cars that way. I've got a "luxury" line with a "premium" package and drive in something called "comfort" mode. The 3 Series has changed, sorry, not some faux racecar anymore.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:11 am
It's apples and oranges, two different philosophies, two different automotive budgets, and (often) two different social classes.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:12 am
As far as your financial planner, if he's applying that axiom in a blanket fashion, irrespective of the numbers, it's time to get a new financial planner. You pay for depreciation either way, it's a question of BMW's before the fact estimate per the lease numbers against what turns out to be the case. That can go and has gone either way.
As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:16 am
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
My 2007 X3 just turned 130000 miles. It has been very trouble-free. I had a CPO warranty to 100k miles. Great vehicle. I can't wait to see it hit 150000 and 200000 miles!
My 530 - has over 100000 miles. Excellent so far, although my wife just told me the heated steering wheel died last night!
My Z4 - so far great, but it is a baby as far as miles.
So my answer is no - no issues owning out of warranty!
December 14, 2012, 8:30 am
Shun Knives - Couldn't resist buying a couple of these. I'd argue they are, they have a swaggy handles, come in amazing boxes and can make cuts most knives couldn't dream of.
Ugg Slippers - Distinctive and they sure feel like luxury to me.
Ribbed Condoms - Granted the luxury is hers but they are pre-lubricated.
I'll be dashed if the answer is no for any of these.
Dash:
- Any craft knife with hardened edge can better - ceramic knife - ultrasonic knife
- Custom fitted fleece lined
- No raincoat! True lux completely natural
Done correctly, the DIY Brotherhood trumps..
December 14, 2012, 8:38 am
When you lease short term you're going to pay the biggest part of the car's depreciation the rest of your life. At least with a car that's paid for (and older) the depreciation plateaus. There's no reason to assume a BMW is going to fall apart 2 minutes out of warranty if maintained.
I didn't keep my M3 longer as I wanted a better DD.
BMW is selling $50,000 German luxury cars, is expecting a $599 payment every month for their products, is anticipating a buyer to re-up in 3½ years for a newer version. So when someone buys one, keeps it 2x or 3x that expected lifespan it's not the intention of the vehicle. There's nothing wrong with that practice for the 5% of the population that will do that, but it's not real-world and it's not a discussion point that matters to the 95% that never keeps a car that long, especially one that has a connotation of a luxury status symbol.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:39 am
Thank you. Perfectly stated.
BMW's are luxury cars first, performance cars a distant second. Personally, I'm happy they are both because that's why I drive them.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:41 am
The one & only BMW with sufficient rear passenger space is 7 Li. Remarkably comfortable for tall boys.
December 14, 2012, 8:42 am
So yeah, I think I could afford your $530/month lease payment, if I wanted to go that way.
The fact that you choose not to afford it is.
You are driving a car that costs $277 a month, so your perspective would be of most value in a Kia or Hyundai forum. Over there, you can make the case that instead of driving brand new econoboxes, they could be driving an old luxury car, something that might be appealing to them.
Over here, your offering us the alternative that we've worked our whole lives to avoid.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:50 am
I think its funny that in many parts of the world BMWs are cop cars and cabs.How do you think they perceive BMWs?I like working on German cars as their put together in the most engineering efficient ways.Talking about a BMW out of warranty on this forums is rather amusing to me.Very easy ,don't go to the dealer for anything.Find a Indy mech that speaks English as his first language.Search the Interweb and attain some knowledge about your vehicle.There are other BMW forums with almost no one leasing ,and most own older bimmers.
December 14, 2012, 8:50 am
What General Motors accomplished 50 years back's not lost on Germans. Form bare bones lux t'whistles & bells, the BMW philosophy gotcha covered.
Except sport. Only M3 is a performance ride - but German marques have severely watered down versions optioned at rewarding profit for poseurs and those who no wanna pay the vig for real M.
Dang. When's that nextgen M3 gonna drop the final veil? Ya'll need parts.
December 14, 2012, 8:51 am
So for the same money that's the next 6 years of your life leasing a brand new 135i (currently $380/mo) or a 335i (currently $399/mo) or an X3 (currently $429/mo).
In 2018 you will own a 10 year old 3 Series worth $3,500. Your out-of-pocket spend on out-of-warranty repairs will likely be $2,000. You will have $1,500 equity in your car.
In 2018 you would have been about to take delivery of your 3rd brand new BMW on lease. Your out-of-warranty repairs will be $0. You will have $0 equity in your car.
For the sake of $1,500 or $19 a month, you could have been driving 3 new BMW's instead of 1 old one. And if your used BMW needs more than the estimated $2,000 in out-of-warranty repairs, the entire process was a waste of time because you simply put yourself in a used car instead of 3 new ones for nothing, might have even saved you money.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 8:56 am
The F30 is a luxury car if you don't think it is you do not know the definition of a luxury product.
"Luxury goods are products and services that are not considered essential and are associated with affluence."
3 Series = Luxury Sport Sedan
7 Series = Sport Luxury Sedan
3 Series = Smaller Luxury Sedan
5 Series = Luxury Sedan
7 Series = Large Luxury Sedan
Same product. Small, Medium, Large. Just like underwear.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:05 am
BentZero Not sure how this turned into a lease versus buy debate. I may be an anomaly, but I don't keep my cars for 10 years so I can "get into a car I can't afford". That's just a weird statement. Do you imagine that I'm eating ramen noodles the first 5 years until the car is paid off? I find a car I'm going to love and drive it. If I don't love it I'll get rid of it when the honeymoon is over. BTW, the dude that is churning through cars over the same 10 year period has gone through $150,000 worth of cars. Nothing wrong with that either. To each his own.
This turned into a lease vs. buy debate because you asked for advice and the answer is: "you should be leasing". You can lease an F30 for as low as $339 a month. That's less money than your electric bill + cellphone bill in all likelihood.
The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.
That's good to know, but in the end you are going to have to choose to spend $600 a month for either a used car that's depreciating or 3 new cars that never depreciate. If you don't plan on keeping it for more than 7 years, don't buy.
Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.
As has been discussed, BMW reliability is a 50/50 proposition but with the influx of new technologies all over the car the prospect of owning one in 2018 with no warranty would be a frightening proposition to most of us.
No one is accusing you of being irresponsible. However, one has to ask oneself:
If you can be in 3 brand new Honda's for significantly less money with significantly more reliability and significantly more features, is it prudent to consider a BMW?
In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3½ years. Buying one of lesser cost deprives you of some great features and keeping it out of warranty is a big risk. It's just not the same type of situation as you are used to with Japanese cars which are more reliable and can last a decade with little worry.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:34 am
The fact that you choose not to afford it is.
You are driving a car that costs $277 a month, so your perspective would be of most value in a Kia or Hyundai forum. Over there, you can make the case that instead of driving brand new econoboxes, they could be driving an old luxury car, something that might be appealing to them.
Over here, your offering us the alternative that we've worked our whole lives to avoid.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:34 am
BMW is selling $50,000 German luxury cars, is expecting a $599 payment every month for their products, is anticipating a buyer to re-up in 3½ years for a newer version. So when someone buys one, keeps it 2x or 3x that expected lifespan it's not the intention of the vehicle. There's nothing wrong with that practice for the 5% of the population that will do that, but it's not real-world and it's not a discussion point that matters to the 95% that never keeps a car that long, especially one that has a connotation of a luxury status symbol.
BJ
This way of thinking may have been true to some extent before the Great Recession when people seemed to change cars nearly as often as their cell phones during the live for today "Disposable Period". But, buyer mentality has shifted. People are now looking for perceived long term quality and value before they plop down their hard earned money. This mindset will spread as health insurance premiums and out-of-pocket deductibles baloon, existing taxes and newly created taxes dramatically increase, inflation rears it's ugly head, and real incomes continue to flatten or shrink.
My dealer's answer that more people now buy their cars as opposed to lease bears this out. Buyers buy their cars now when they are flush, so they have a decent ride during good times and bad. People that have the monthly leases (most lease terms I imagine are well beyond 36 months) have to make those payments every month, and have to project that they are going to be able to afford those payments throughout the terms of that lease. If they find themselves strapped at times, what options do they have for their next car when the lease expires, and they have zero equity due to leasing/renting their car?
I was around when car leasing began. It was a great option for business owners who could write off 100% of the lease as a business expense. For those who could not write off the lease payments, people leased because they could afford more car than they would by taking out a loan. Now, and according to my dealer when I asked why fewer people are leasing, he said: many people can no longer qualify because of their lacking credit scores; because people are not earning much through their investments, people like to see their money - like seeing the car parked in their driveway. They own it and it makes them feel good and safe. He also said that this is a typical response that he has seen several times during economic downturns.
Also since the "Great Recession", he said that BMW has been backing off from propping up the residual values on leases. They got slammed in '08 when a ton of leases expired and the car values plummeted. He said that Mercedes is actively propping up their residuals to around 70% in some cases, and that they too will get slammed down the road. (may be a good time to lease a Mercedes for a value play?)
I also found out that the dealer's revenue model is now much more dependent on their service department than it has ever been in years past.
To BJ, you really should find a car that will keep your interest for more than 2 years.
December 14, 2012, 9:38 am
So for the same money that's the next 6 years of your life leasing a brand new 135i (currently $380/mo) or a 335i (currently $399/mo) or an X3 (currently $429/mo).
In 2018 you will own a 10 year old 3 Series worth $3,500. Your out-of-pocket spend on out-of-warranty repairs will likely be $2,000. You will have $1,500 equity in your car.
In 2018 you would have been about to take delivery of your 3rd brand new BMW on lease. Your out-of-warranty repairs will be $0. You will have $0 equity in your car.
For the sake of $1,500 or $19 a month, you could have been driving 3 new BMW's instead of 1 old one. And if your used BMW needs more than the estimated $2,000 in out-of-warranty repairs, the entire process was a waste of time because you simply put yourself in a used car instead of 3 new ones for nothing, might have even saved you money.
BJ
Your snide comments are entertaining, but your math sucks, so stick to the former.
December 14, 2012, 9:39 am
This turned into a lease vs. buy debate because you asked for advice and the answer is: "you should be leasing". You can lease an F30 for as low as $339 a month. That's less money than your electric bill + cellphone bill in all likelihood.
The only reason I even looked at a 3 series is because it has a turbo which is what I want in my next car. That's it. It's not badge. It's not luxury. It's purely a check on the list. Of course being in a BMW would be nice, but it's not a priority. Whether I decide to pay cash, lease, or finance will be decided after I find what I want as well.
That's good to know, but in the end you are going to have to choose to spend $600 a month for either a used car that's depreciating or 3 new cars that never depreciate. If you don't plan on keeping it for more than 7 years, don't buy.
Anyway, I started this thread with the goal of trying to understand BMW's reliability. However, I now feel like I'm pigeon holed into the role of irresponsible buyer stretching himself beyond his means. Do people really think that everyone that keeps their cars for a long time or doesn't want to waste money on depreciation is poor? My FIL still drives his 1995 Merc and the dude is a millionaire many times over.
As has been discussed, BMW reliability is a 50/50 proposition but with the influx of new technologies all over the car the prospect of owning one in 2018 with no warranty would be a frightening proposition to most of us.
No one is accusing you of being irresponsible. However, one has to ask oneself:
If you can be in 3 brand new Honda's for significantly less money with significantly more reliability and significantly more features, is it prudent to consider a BMW?
In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3½ years. Buying one of lesser cost deprives you of some great features and keeping it out of warranty is a big risk. It's just not the same type of situation as you are used to with Japanese cars which are more reliable and can last a decade with little worry.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:50 am
Cars are put into categories, I always found that the 3 series was lopped into ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY CAR. Calling it a SPORTS SEDAN is a further and unnecessary further means of separating. But all the competing cars do the same thing-you can option them to take more the SPORT side or the LUX side. But in the end, it's the same grouping-ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY.
December 14, 2012, 9:52 am
As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.
I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
December 14, 2012, 9:54 am
As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.
I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
December 14, 2012, 9:58 am
Prince Charles as a logn time Aston Martin driver.
December 14, 2012, 10:10 am
well back when I watched the royal wedding it seemed they all pulled out of the palace in 7 series and range rovers. but looking it up I am reading that "Audi, in fact, has supplied the British Royal Family with numerous vehicles" which is probably the only reason they drive them, along with every other celebrity that audi gives it cars to, in the hopes of convincing everyone that watches mainstream news.
also quite amusing is the story of prince william who drove Princess Kate out of their wedding with that Aston Martin and never even released the handbrake (well, at least one of the underlings forgot to tell him to release it
December 14, 2012, 10:10 am
December 14, 2012, 10:13 am
http://www.inautonews.com/royal-wedd...h-handbrake-on
December 14, 2012, 10:16 am
December 14, 2012, 10:19 am
Your point is retarded, like most of your points. Stick to what you know, cruising Walmart to impress the locals.
Your snide comments are entertaining, but your math sucks, so stick to the former.
To the OP, if you have any sense in your head, don't listen to this clown.
As stated numerous times, the reason that what many of us are saying seems blasphemous to you is because you are in the 5% minority that buys German luxury status-symbols and decides to keep them for 10 years.
This is the F30 forum. We talk brand new $50,000 cars here. You own a car that's two-generations old with no interest in buying a new one. Besides instigating owners of brand new cars, you have no purpose here.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:27 am
This way of thinking may have been true to some extent before the Great Recession when people seemed to change cars nearly as often as their cell phones during the live for today "Disposable Period". But, buyer mentality has shifted. People are now looking for perceived long term quality and value before they plop down their hard earned money. This mindset will spread as health insurance premiums and out-of-pocket deductibles baloon, existing taxes and newly created taxes dramatically increase, inflation rears it's ugly head, and real incomes continue to flatten or shrink.
To BJ, you really should find a car that will keep your interest for more than 2 years.
No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.
So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:
1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.
You and I are #6. We aren't "people".
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:49 am
As for cop cars, I know britain uses BMWs as cop cars, but that's because their normal cruisers simply arent fast enough to keep up with the juicers.
I also know that the Royal family uses BMWs, so
We live in America, so the only thing that's relevant here is how BMW is perceived here. I've been driven in Mercedes E Class taxi's in Germany, it doesn't mean that an E Class in the United States is equivalent to a $19,000 Ford.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 11:05 am
No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.
So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:
1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.
You and I are #6. We aren't "people".
BJ
Just curious BJ, how many cars do you own if you are so wealthy? Most of the wealthy car people I know from my dad's banker friends all own new and old cars and none of them ever lease because they don't like to waste money on interest. Most keep a stable of classic cars as they appreciate instead of depreciate as collectible cars- Porsche 911 Turbo (930 chassis), Ferrari F40/F50, Lotus Exige S, C2/C3 Corvettes, Early model BOSS Mustangs, etc
Weren't leases originally designed for companies that leased large fleets of cars then used them for tax write offs?
December 14, 2012, 11:06 am
No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave. If someone with $4M in net worth suddenly finds they have only $3M in net work, dosen't mean they're going to skimp a $599 car payment down to $499 as that $100 doesn't mean anything to them because $3M is still an extremely nice nest-egg.
So when you say "people", you aren't referring to every single BMW buyer as there are so many of them out there:
1 Kid Over His Head: Really should be in a Honda, buys a CPO BMW to fit in.
2 Kid With Backwards Values: Gets a new BMW but with no features, the $36K stripper.
3 Man Into Performance: Buys a new BMW, mods it.
4 Man Into Prestige: Into it for the badge. Can afford it, but in it for the wrong reasons.
5 Man Into Family: Has done well in career, has wife and 2 young kids, a great decision.
6 Man Into Value: Wealthy person, views his 3 Series as most would view a Camry.
You and I are #6. We aren't "people".
BJ
December 14, 2012, 11:06 am
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
December 14, 2012, 11:11 am
December 14, 2012, 12:21 pm
December 14, 2012, 12:25 pm
No matter the Great Recession or the Great Depression, people with money still have money and they have no reason to change the way they behave.
With the U6 unemployment rate 14.4% and unlikely to improve much any time soon, "Let 'em eat truffles"!
December 14, 2012, 1:36 pm
Who said something about only M cars?What a goof ball,must be under 40 or probably under 30.M series didn't even come around until 1983 M6 except for the M1(not this new little thing).My family had 7 BMWs before 1983 and were considered great SPORTS sedans.
December 14, 2012, 2:38 pm
As stated numerous times, the reason that what many of us are saying seems blasphemous to you is because you are in the 5% minority that buys German luxury status-symbols and decides to keep them for 10 years.
This is the F30 forum. We talk brand new $50,000 cars here. You own a car that's two-generations old with no interest in buying a new one. Besides instigating owners of brand new cars, you have no purpose here.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 2:41 pm
December 14, 2012, 2:45 pm
Of course it's wealth more than income that matters. And I suspect those income numbers are bogus too, a way of attracting more buyers: "Drive a 3 series, you'll be part of the top 5%!"
December 14, 2012, 2:53 pm
Of course it's wealth more than income that matters. And I suspect those income numbers are bogus too, a way of attracting more buyers: "Drive a 3 series, you'll be part of the top 5%!"
December 14, 2012, 3:29 pm
As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.
BJ
I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
December 14, 2012, 3:37 pm
I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
CA
December 14, 2012, 3:38 pm
As far as depreciation, there is none if you lease for the rest of your life.
BJ
I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
December 14, 2012, 4:07 pm
Ca
December 14, 2012, 4:07 pm
December 14, 2012, 4:13 pm
December 14, 2012, 4:17 pm
Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
December 14, 2012, 4:30 pm
Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
December 14, 2012, 4:31 pm
Thank you. Perfectly stated.
BMW's are luxury cars first, performance cars a distant second. Personally, I'm happy they are both because that's why I drive them.
BJ
BMW still leads the pack as far as performance in the F30 vs the A4/C Class. I'd rather have a F30 over any of its' rivals. I drove a stripper loaner and was enamored how quick and agile it feels.
The Luxury line is a package, its like the Limited trim on a Ford Taurus. Adds some exterior differences, some (not all) interior materials are upgraded. But don't think for a minute you're driving a car designed from the beginning to be a luxury car. It's a great great sports sedan, luxury sedan no. Want a luxury sedan? Get a F10 Individual.
December 14, 2012, 4:51 pm
Actually the BMW buyer is relatively frugal compared to the overall average car price ($30k) vs median household income ($40k).
CA
December 14, 2012, 4:53 pm
median household income is 40k? what is this 1980? i thought people in the assembly line at the ford plants make 75k
December 14, 2012, 6:23 pm
December 14, 2012, 6:28 pm
CA
All that huge household income number tells me is that Bentley owners are bigger liars than BMW owners about their incomes. When asked about incomes for surveys and even car loan/lease credit apps, you can tell them whatever you want because they don't check it anyway. They just check your credit scores.
December 14, 2012, 6:43 pm
All that huge household income number tells me is that Bentley owners are bigger liars than BMW owners about their incomes. When asked about incomes for surveys and even car loan/lease credit apps, you can tell them whatever you want because they don't check it anyway. They just check your credit scores.
http://www.fms.co.uk/mediapacks/Bent...-Pack-2010.pdf
CA
December 14, 2012, 6:54 pm
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea.../cb12-172.html
December 14, 2012, 7:48 pm
this car made me love my X5 more and more
December 14, 2012, 8:39 pm
December 14, 2012, 8:57 pm
http://www.fms.co.uk/mediapacks/Bent...-Pack-2010.pdf
CA
December 14, 2012, 9:14 pm
December 14, 2012, 9:41 pm
If the OP was asking about whether buying an already out of warranty, 9 year old, two-bodystyles-ago E46, you'd be perfect to answer the question. Speaking of the E46, doesn't it have its very own subforum where you should be instead of trolling here? I can answer that question for you, if you like.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:46 pm
Just curious BJ, how many cars do you own if you are so wealthy? Most of the wealthy car people I know from my dad's banker friends all own new and old cars and none of them ever lease because they don't like to waste money on interest. Most keep a stable of classic cars as they appreciate instead of depreciate as collectible cars- Porsche 911 Turbo (930 chassis), Ferrari F40/F50, Lotus Exige S, C2/C3 Corvettes, Early model BOSS Mustangs, etc
Weren't leases originally designed for companies that leased large fleets of cars then used them for tax write offs?
My wife and I are fortunate to have been making good salaries for decades, lived a very affordable lifestyle in New England before relocating back down to the NYC area. We did not grow up with significant wealth so we're used to driving a certain class of vehicle, both our families had BMW's long before we were married, we like them now. While we fit the financial demographic of the Bentley owner, it's not us and never will be. We save that extra $2000 a month and put it somewhere useful, like our kids educations, summer homes, and an early retirement.
Not sure what leasing was originally intended to be in the early 80's, but we know what they are now- a slightly-more expensive alternative to buying and one that is perfect for those who get bored with a car after 2½ years.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:53 pm
I agree with a lot of how you look at things. But economically you are paying for depreciation under a lease, in fact it's the lion's share of your payments. Lease, finance or pay cash there's no way to escape it.
The wife and I have decided that $1,200 a month is our budget for our cars, so we (I) go out and get as much car as we (I) can for that monthly outlay. We've got a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite for $650 and a 2013 BMW 328i for $549 that suits our needs perfectly at this time.
I've got a cable bill. It's for something that's recreational yet necessary. It "depreciates" immediately because it has no residual value at all, the only value coming from the experience it brings. Same for my gas bill, my electric bill, my internet bill, my cellphone bill, and my BMW bill.
These other utilities are not 'investments'. They have no 'depreciation'. They are just expenditures. Same for your car. You don't need to overthink this.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 9:58 pm
When you lease you are paying for the depreciation of the car so of course you are paying for depreciation.
CA
The cost of 30 days of gas/electricity where I live in the month of December is $680.
The cost of 30 days of a $50,000 BMW 3 Series where I live in the month of December is $539.
If the gas/electricity has a "real" cost of $300 and I'm paying $380 for assorted bits of infrastructure and taxes and palm greasing it's of no consequence to me; I either pay $680 or I have no power. Simple. Same for the car. Whatever voodoo finance goes into that $539 is of no consequence to me; I either pay $539 or I have no new BMW. Simple.
I am paying the "going rate" for these two utilities; nothing is depreciating because neither is an investment, neither is owned. They just exist as typical monthly expenditures for necessary functions.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:02 pm
BMW still leads the pack as far as performance in the F30 vs the A4/C Class. I'd rather have a F30 over any of its' rivals. I drove a stripper loaner and was enamored how quick and agile it feels.
The Luxury line is a package, its like the Limited trim on a Ford Taurus. Adds some exterior differences, some (not all) interior materials are upgraded. But don't think for a minute you're driving a car designed from the beginning to be a luxury car. It's a great great sports sedan, luxury sedan no. Want a luxury sedan? Get a F10 Individual.
Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.
The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:03 pm
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:18 pm
December 14, 2012, 10:22 pm
December 14, 2012, 10:33 pm
I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.
I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.
http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:40 pm
December 14, 2012, 10:41 pm
I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.
I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.
http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/
BJ
CA
December 14, 2012, 10:44 pm
CA
December 14, 2012, 10:47 pm
I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.
I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.
http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/
BJ
December 14, 2012, 10:57 pm
Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.
The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.
BJ
The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.
Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're naïve enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
December 14, 2012, 11:12 pm
I can afford another $1,400 a month for a Bentley if I wanted one. It's less than half my beach house mortgage, would bump my monthly expenses only another 4%.
I don't need one. My BMW is enough for my needs.
http://www.paulmillerbentley.com/coupons/sales/
BJ
BJ,
Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.
Glad I don't have kids.
CA
December 14, 2012, 11:21 pm
December 14, 2012, 11:33 pm
The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.
Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're naïve enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
December 14, 2012, 11:45 pm
Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're naïve enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 11:47 pm
Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.
Glad I don't have kids.
CA
BJ
December 14, 2012, 11:53 pm
Above all else, BMW is a luxury brand. Whatever marketing takes place after that to make enthusiasts feel "sporty" is just a nice-to-have.
The total amount of "sport" anything on a BMW is less than 10% of all BMW's sold. Sport Packages, Sport Lines, Sport Suspensions, M-Sport's, M3's, it's a tiny fraction of BMW's sales. The bump in price they get over the likes of a Honda or Acura comes from the brand tax, the fact that the car is a luxurious status-symbol.
BJ
December 14, 2012, 11:53 pm
The F30 is a fantastic car, but the Luxury line is a trim level, nothing more. You're making it seem like it's bespoke or something.
Just some advice, it's extremely tacky to discuss one's finances and income on a public forum. I don't think you're naïve enough to think you're the only one on the block that's been blessed financially... The tone you're using makes you look extremely pretentious.
December 14, 2012, 11:56 pm
December 15, 2012, 12:27 am
December 15, 2012, 12:30 am
Ok STOP! We can measure wallet penises another time. Back to No Warrenty Money Pit BMW's.
December 15, 2012, 1:15 am
Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.
December 15, 2012, 1:40 am
The cost of 30 days of gas/electricity where I live in the month of December is $680.
The cost of 30 days of a $50,000 BMW 3 Series where I live in the month of December is $539.
If the gas/electricity has a "real" cost of $300 and I'm paying $380 for assorted bits of infrastructure and taxes and palm greasing it's of no consequence to me; I either pay $680 or I have no power. Simple. Same for the car. Whatever voodoo finance goes into that $539 is of no consequence to me; I either pay $539 or I have no new BMW. Simple.
I am paying the "going rate" for these two utilities; nothing is depreciating because neither is an investment, neither is owned. They just exist as typical monthly expenditures for necessary functions.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 2:01 am
Here is my take on the luxury part.
In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still means luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?
Now in Europe, BMW is considered a premium brand. But realize that the 316 comes with a 136HP engine, steel wheels with hub caps, velour seats, etc., hardly a luxury configuration. The 316d comes with a 116Hp monster. About 10 years ago, the 316 came with roll up windows and a 0-60mph time of about 13-14secs. You get the idea.
In the US, VW is considered a cheap brand, which is why the Phaeton didn't sell well. But the Phaeton is a true luxury car, with a 12-cyl engine, incredible massaging leather seats, beautiful woodwork, etc. It seems like individual models matter a little more than brands over there.
December 15, 2012, 2:10 am
December 15, 2012, 2:38 am
The wife and I have decided that $1,200 a month is our budget for our cars, so we (I) go out and get as much car as we (I) can for that monthly outlay. We've got a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite for $650 and a 2013 BMW 328i for $549 that suits our needs perfectly at this time.
I've got a cable bill. It's for something that's recreational yet necessary. It "depreciates" immediately because it has no residual value at all, the only value coming from the experience it brings. Same for my gas bill, my electric bill, my internet bill, my cellphone bill, and my BMW bill.
These other utilities are not 'investments'. They have no 'depreciation'. They are just expenditures. Same for your car. You don't need to overthink this.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 4:41 am
BJ
I debadged my car, and when people ask, tell them its a 5er. You're the one pointing out you're driving a "Luxury[trim]" 3...
Humble you say?
December 15, 2012, 9:15 am
In case you didn't get the hint, the F30 is larger, longer, wider, softer, defaults its transmission to Comfort mode, offers most of the Premium package as standard equipment, and has a Luxury line as its best selling variation.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 9:25 am
And the other extreme of not-normal is someone who purchases a 3 Series to keep for more than 10 years. Conversation like this, advice like this, it should be focused on the norm which is either a) lease for 3 years or b) buy for 4½.
In my circle of friends, I don't know a single one that is driving a 10 year old car nor do I know a single one who purchased a car for $50,000 cash. Those who interject these radical strategies aren't helping.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 9:41 am
In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still mean luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?
$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan
Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.
It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.
When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.
When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.
So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?
The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 10:20 am
"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.
A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."
"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.
The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."
Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
December 15, 2012, 10:37 am
I think this is a popular belief due to the complexity of repair and cost of parts. The German cars in general have a rocket science aura around them that they are difficult to fix. I think they are, only until you jump in and learn the systems. The biggest disadvantage we have as owners is we don't have the proper diagnostic tools so readily available to use. Don't forget that you do have a great tool and that's this forum. I am very grateful to see that there is a list of suppliers here that are considered competitively priced.
December 15, 2012, 10:51 am
December 15, 2012, 10:56 am
$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan
Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.
It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.
When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.
When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.
So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?
The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 12:27 pm
BJ
December 15, 2012, 1:04 pm
Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K
It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
December 15, 2012, 1:27 pm
Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K
It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
December 15, 2012, 2:02 pm
"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.
A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."
"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.
The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."
Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
December 15, 2012, 2:15 pm
There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.
I am not a member of this camp.
December 15, 2012, 2:29 pm
There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.
December 15, 2012, 2:56 pm
I aim keeping mine out of warranty up to 7 years, yeah that MUST be easy. I mean; if BMW can't build a car that lasts that long without crazy costs and hassles then it is a POS.
It is just normal to expect some kind of repairs & troubles past 4 years/50K miles. How much is the question. For my last 3 years, I budgeted 1800$/yr or 150$/mo for costs incurred that would have been covered under warranty.
After 28mo out of warranty, I should have spent 4200$, my actual cost is 1327$ so I am 2873$ positive in the bank.
I have to replace the engine head's cover gasket, change brake fluids, change battery.... another 1500$ to spend ... I am still 1000$+ ahead.
December 15, 2012, 3:16 pm
Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.
No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.
The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
December 15, 2012, 3:39 pm
I'm jumping into the fray and I promise it's not about the size of the penis in my wallet...
BMWs are reliable and I agree with BJ they are designed with multiple consumers in mind and will perform the way that target market wants it to.
Take me for example...
I strongly fall into the higher earner with a family category that expects value out of my BMW and to perform like a Camry AND like a pseudo sports activity vehicle.
I purchase my cars outright because I view long term ownership as the lowest monthly amortized expense over 10 years. Once the car is paid off monthly car expense becomes a reserve account that is significantly lower than a car payment. I have gone both ways paid cash at purchase by saving the monthly payment amount over 10 years or doing payments and then paying myself back for the remaining time for future repairs/car purchase.
My 2009 x3 has 105k miles on it because I drive the snot out of it...my daily commute is 120 miles round trip and I regularly drive down to LA to check in on my staff at that facility.
Am I worried that my car is out of warranty? Nope. As an engineer it is in my blood to over-maintain my car...because I EXPECT 10 years and 300k miles out of it. I fall into the camp that leaking gaskets happen and it is part of normal PM...as a side I haven't yet had any...
Now this is what makes BMW so awesome....
The same car that I paid $50k for will be perfect for someone that buys new ones every 3-4 years...no extra maintenance or worries and no fear of an expensive repair...BJ point of view
OR
For someone with long term goals....the car is built like a tank if you more than double your maintenance schedule a la old school and have no fear of minor inconveniences here and there over 10 years...in return you get a reliable, comfortable, fun, and yes luxurious car. My point of view.
This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....
December 15, 2012, 4:10 pm
December 15, 2012, 4:13 pm
I did change valve cover gasket (and even timing belts) on other cars but this one looks like *a pain*.
I plan to change the battery myself. I'll have the brake fluid changed at a BMW dealer but I am not decided where to have my engine cover gasket changed. One thing I am sure, it will be at least 500$.
December 15, 2012, 4:49 pm
Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.
No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.
The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
Mechanical parts break or wear out. That's the nature of the beast. In most cases, proper maintenanace either eliminates problems from occuring or slows down the process. Regular servicing can also reveal potential issues and replace parts before a much more expensive fix may be needed.
December 15, 2012, 5:08 pm
If you are talking about the head gasket, then it is indeed a whole different deal. That is perhaps a lot more than $1,500?
I did search just a little bit on this topic, and it seems that even the cover gasket is a pain to replace for the N52 and that this particular engine is notorious for gasket failures, with bolts breaking off?
December 15, 2012, 5:17 pm
On the x3 side of the house I haven't heard of ANY head gasket failures on the n52...but it is common for valve cover and oil filter gaskets needing replacement especially on older models...that is a pm part IMHO.
The head gasket is a different animal but my opinion on that type of failure is due to improper maintenance.....or extreme age. I have had 2 cars in the last 15 years hit 300k miles with no head gasket failure...
December 15, 2012, 5:28 pm
December 15, 2012, 5:38 pm
Mechanical parts break or wear out. That's the nature of the beast. In most cases, proper maintenanace either eliminates problems from occuring or slows down the process. Regular servicing can also reveal potential issues and replace parts before a much more expensive fix may be needed.
But thanks for your input, I might be tempted to do it myself if the warranty doesn't apply.
December 15, 2012, 7:43 pm
Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K
It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.
BJ
December 15, 2012, 7:49 pm
Now this is what makes BMW so awesome....
The same car that I paid $50k for will be perfect for someone that buys new ones every 3-4 years...no extra maintenance or worries and no fear of an expensive repair...BJ point of view
OR
For someone with long term goals....the car is built like a tank if you more than double your maintenance schedule a la old school and have no fear of minor inconveniences here and there over 10 years...in return you get a reliable, comfortable, fun, and yes luxurious car. My point of view.
This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....
Bravo
BJ
December 16, 2012, 8:01 am
December 16, 2012, 8:05 am
And the other extreme of not-normal is someone who purchases a 3 Series to keep for more than 10 years. Conversation like this, advice like this, it should be focused on the norm which is either a) lease for 3 years or b) buy for 4½.
In my circle of friends, I don't know a single one that is driving a 10 year old car nor do I know a single one who purchased a car for $50,000 cash. Those who interject these radical strategies aren't helping.
BJ
So don't start thinking you're the norm.
December 16, 2012, 1:39 pm
So don't start thinking you're the norm.
December 16, 2012, 1:47 pm
BJ
December 16, 2012, 3:15 pm
BJ
December 16, 2012, 3:16 pm
So don't start thinking you're the norm.
You did.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 4:19 pm
Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
December 16, 2012, 7:52 pm
Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.
Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.
German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes
SRT is a great brand. They were fed some crappy products in the 2000's and somehow turned them into some of the best bangs for the buck. Looking forward, I think they will out do BMW dollar for dollar with their all new products. For example, the new Viper is on par or better than what Ferrari has to offer (they took Ferrari tech and seats and leather and kept the Viper rawness), at 1/3 the price. The new SRT M3/4 fighter in 2015 will do just that, at 25% less price. It will be interesting!
BTW, about the warranty, I agree with most here. BMWs can be tricky out of warranty. But Japanese cars are not cheap out of warranty either. Domestics can be profoundly cheap out of warranty. That said, you live once. Buy the car that inspires you. Don't buy another boring Accord or Camry unless you are a boring person. If you need a warranty, there are a ton of aftermarket warranties available.
December 16, 2012, 9:03 pm
A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.
BJ
But this brings another interesting point. What is a better deal, a modestly optioned higher-end car or a well-optioned lesser car? And this can be looked at both from the badge-hunter's point of view or from a more functional perspective.
For instance, a modestly equipped $24K Accord is a much better value than a fully loaded $28K Civic. The status seeker would probably also prefer the Accord, unless they are rather young and want to avoid the granps image.
Similarly, you can load up a C63 to $80K, but for the average car buyer, a $55K E350 is both more practical and conveys higher status. The same applies to BMW: $50K well optioned 328i or a base 528i? Status seeker who are OK with the older image of the 5 will most likely pick it over a loaded 3.
So given all this, maybe picking a $38K 328i over a fully loaded V6 Accord is not all that unreasonable.
December 16, 2012, 9:14 pm
I think BMW realized that some its customers were being laughed at for paying this much for a car worse equipped than a Corolla. It seems like they are in the business of optimizing two conflicting forces: the price has to be low enough to maximize the number of buyers, but the car cannot be so stripped as to insult them and make them prey to mockery by their friends. At the same time, they want to "encourage" you to load up on options to maximize profits. But the stripped 2012 was just outrageous compared to the competition, so they had no choice but to sweeten the deal a little.
Unfortunately, I think Audi picked up on some of these machinations. For instance, trip computer and folding backseats used to be standard on base trim VW's and of course all Audis. In the last few years, they have become options on the A4, and the sport pack can only be had if you opt for the second level trim.
December 16, 2012, 9:15 pm
A $33K accord is still just an Accord; a $37K F30 looks like the $55K F30 to the average man on the street so it's got a secondary, clandestine purpose that the others on the list don't have. It's BMW's secret-weapon, one of the keys to their profitability. For more money than a completely loaded Accord you can get a completely stripped 3 Series if the badge is more of a motivation for you than the creature comforts.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 9:28 pm
As for large sedans the 750Li xdrive is the best driving large sedan I have ever driven. I had several XJs (including an XJ sport) and as good as they were the 7 is better.
CA
December 16, 2012, 9:54 pm
December 16, 2012, 10:03 pm
But this brings another interesting point. What is a better deal, a modestly optioned higher-end car or a well-optioned lesser car? And this can be looked at both from the badge-hunter's point of view or from a more functional perspective.
For instance, a modestly equipped $24K Accord is a much better value than a fully loaded $28K Civic. The status seeker would probably also prefer the Accord, unless they are rather young and want to avoid the granps image.
Similarly, you can load up a C63 to $80K, but for the average car buyer, a $55K E350 is both more practical and conveys higher status. The same applies to BMW: $50K well optioned 328i or a base 528i? Status seeker who are OK with the older image of the 5 will most likely pick it over a loaded 3.
So given all this, maybe picking a $38K 328i over a fully loaded V6 Accord is not all that unreasonable.
For me, it was either get an '06 Acura TL fully loaded for $40K or get an '06 BMW E93 completely stripped, and I went with the BMW because, at the time, the badge meant more to me than the oodles of techno features did. After 24 months I really missed the Acura gadgetry and felt that the bump in handling combined with the type of realworld driving I was doing made it a bum deal.
So I decided that all BMW's from there on in are going to be loaded for me because I want the best of both worlds, want it all.
But there are plenty of people who reach that same turning point that I did in '06. Do I keep getting top of the line pedestrian cars or do I get a low-end luxury car? Many people choose the latter option.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 10:06 pm
I think BMW realized that some its customers were being laughed at for paying this much for a car worse equipped than a Corolla. It seems like they are in the business of optimizing two conflicting forces: the price has to be low enough to maximize the number of buyers, but the car cannot be so stripped as to insult them and make them prey to mockery by their friends. At the same time, they want to "encourage" you to load up on options to maximize profits. But the stripped 2012 was just outrageous compared to the competition, so they had no choice but to sweeten the deal a little.
Unfortunately, I think Audi picked up on some of these machinations. For instance, trip computer and folding backseats used to be standard on base trim VW's and of course all Audis. In the last few years, they have become options on the A4, and the sport pack can only be had if you opt for the second level trim.
The magic profit equation for BMW is that the 3 Series is two different cars for two different buyers at two different lifestages. It's rare that one of my junior executives can afford the same car as the big boss does, but really he doesn't. My $50,000 version is not the same car as the $36,000 stripper. It makes a lot of money for BMW, gets the brand out there, gets lots of future big-spenders into the family, etc.
BJ
December 17, 2012, 2:36 am
There is one number I like to look at to gauge the dynamic handling capabilities of cars, and that's Consumer Reports' "evasive maneuver" maximum speed. The numbers clearly reveal a difference between Camry/Accords and 3/A4s and confrom what we feel when driving. Of course, it's just one measure out of many others, but these cars also feel rather different at high speeds. The Germans feel a lot more "planted" at high speeds. Is it alignment, tauter suspension, a combination, something else, I don't know? Are they worth the price premium? That's a very subjective call.
VW offered a very nice middle ground in terms of both price and performance. But some of their latest models, such as the Passat, have been toned down in the handling and department. But I am veering more and more away from the topic of this thread.
December 17, 2012, 2:39 am
Here is one question getting back to leasing versus out of warranty ownership.
What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
December 17, 2012, 2:49 am
What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
December 17, 2012, 11:30 am
Now, that being said, the number one rule of being in the financial strata of a Bentley owner is not talking about being able to afford a Bentley. For if it's in question, then you surely are not an average Bentley owner.
I live in a moderately affluent area and consider BMWs to be pretty standard stuff. They lease for what people pay monthly on their new Honda Accords, so it's pretty basic to see 3-series around.
Delightful car but not exactly a status icon anymore. That was a deliberate strategy by BMW to sell more cars and it's worked quite well - bravo BMW.
December 17, 2012, 11:33 am
What can one do when driving 24-25Kmiles a year, especially if driving lots of "easy on the car" freeway miles?
You are looking at at least $100-150 extra/month to lease a car for that mileage.
That's about the difference to finance the same car, have no mileage restrictions, and get the various other benefits to actually owning. You no longer have to turn-in on a forced time, you may build a bit of equity over the same time period, etc.
December 17, 2012, 2:38 pm
Any car is only as good as it's previous owner. I found a 1984 325e for my son for $490. It needed a new guibo, transmission bearing and transmission mounts (less than $100 in parts- I did the work myself). After a tuneup, system flush, new windshield and some cleanup the car purrs like a kitten- with over 300K on the speedometer. For less than $800 my son is bopping around in a sporty vintage 5 speed- these cars just won't quit. Obviously the previous owner(s) kept the car maintained and took care of things as they happened. All cars require maintenance, but if you understand that and respect them- bimmers are one of the best cars to own. I won't own anything else!
December 17, 2012, 4:39 pm
It ain't that bad. We love working on our cars in our own time. For the faint of heart, go get that Lexus or Acura. We won't stop you. Leave the machine for us to drive, passing or in front of you I might add.
December 17, 2012, 5:26 pm
Now, that being said, the number one rule of being in the financial strata of a Bentley owner is not talking about being able to afford a Bentley. For if it's in question, then you surely are not an average Bentley owner.
I live in a moderately affluent area and consider BMWs to be pretty standard stuff. They lease for what people pay monthly on their new Honda Accords, so it's pretty basic to see 3-series around.
Delightful car but not exactly a status icon anymore. That was a deliberate strategy by BMW to sell more cars and it's worked quite well - bravo BMW.
A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.
The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.
BJ
December 17, 2012, 6:38 pm
The magic profit equation for BMW is that the 3 Series is two different cars for two different buyers at two different lifestages. It's rare that one of my junior executives can afford the same car as the big boss does, but really he doesn't. My $50,000 version is not the same car as the $36,000 stripper. It makes a lot of money for BMW, gets the brand out there, gets lots of future big-spenders into the family, etc.
BJ
If you want a 50000$ version, it must be a 335i.
December 18, 2012, 11:23 am
If someone wants to buy a 36K stripper because that's what they can afford more power to them. The real posers in my area drive old generation high mileage BMW's just for the badge... more power to them too if they can afford the repairs. The thing is, someone will look at my brand new 45K sportline and say... thats not the real deal. You need M-Sport, or a 335, or a 5 series. Someone actually told me the 328 is a woman car, get the 335. This thinking can go on and on up to the bently and exotic car owners. Buy what you like and can afford I say. I don't knock the status seekers.
December 18, 2012, 11:37 am
I agree with all of what you say. Just a comment on the bolded section: an old generation high mileage BMW is likely to be less expensive to operate than a new one. Your brand new $45k car is going to lose over $6k in value in its first year, over $5k in value in its second year, etc. It's highly unlikely that an older (well-maintained) car will cost nearly that much in repairs.
December 18, 2012, 12:15 pm
December 18, 2012, 12:47 pm
December 18, 2012, 1:28 pm
A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.
The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.
BJ
Try San Francisco and that becomes $20K with the same limited Manhattan parking. Live in the suburbs to offset the cost
December 18, 2012, 1:48 pm
December 18, 2012, 2:04 pm
10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
December 18, 2012, 2:22 pm
10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
I suspect it's the same to somebody not familiar with BMW. People that didn't know my 2006 E46 M3 was that old, thought it a current model. A timeless look IMHO. Hell I can barely tell an F30 from the F10 at a distance
December 18, 2012, 2:38 pm
10-15 years old puts you in the heyday of BMW, those cars were awesome to drive. And they tend to look really tired now, so not sure how impressive they are as badge acquisitions.
December 18, 2012, 3:11 pm
December 19, 2012, 3:26 pm
Time will tell! But the ride is second to none! I have owned Mercedes E300, 420SEL, s420, E55 and none of those can compare to the 645Ci. Just plain fun!
December 19, 2012, 10:10 pm
anyone have a list of what is not covered under new car warranty? I've search and can't find anything on it
December 19, 2012, 11:43 pm
Take a guess as to why.
BJ
December 19, 2012, 11:51 pm
December 20, 2012, 12:45 am
hmm interesting ill keep searching im sure something is out there
Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
December 20, 2012, 2:02 pm
From financial standpoint:
Leasing $50K MSRP BMW / 10Kmi per year with 7 MSD ( ~ $3.5K) would cost roughly about $150 / month more than buying same car 3 year old (30Kmi) for $30K plus tax and keep and drive that car for next seven years and sell it at $10k with 100Kmi after that. If you count tax consideration, investment return on your 30K you paid upfront when you buy (or loan you take to buy), the difference can be even less.
Assumptions: MSRP - $50k, 10000 / per year, Value loss - !5% / year, after warranty maintenance (repair cost) – $0.15 / mile
If you continue to keep this car the saving would be bigger since after 10years, car residual value play less toll.
December 20, 2012, 3:14 pm
Add the transaction costs (sales tax, etc.) as well to your equation for at least 3 cycles.
December 20, 2012, 3:44 pm
That's why I can't lease anymore!
December 20, 2012, 4:01 pm
If you drive less than 50,000/3 = 16,666mi per year, lease give you even better saving
December 20, 2012, 4:12 pm
I drive TOO much!
December 21, 2012, 1:16 pm
I presently own a 2002 BMW 530i. As long as you do the regular maintenance to your vehicle there is no reason why you should have nothing but a great experience driving a BMW. Typically maintenance is required less on BMW's than most cars. People cannot believe my car is 11 years old. It continues to put a smile on my face everytime I drive it. Good Luck.
December 21, 2012, 1:24 pm
She had it trouble free until a month or so ago.
December 21, 2012, 1:54 pm
She had it trouble free until a month or so ago.
December 22, 2012, 2:11 pm
Depends on the car. Definitely do your own due dilligence. I bought a 2008 z4si w/ M heated seats, standard tranny, bluetooth, etc. CPO'd for about half the sticker. that was two years ago. Have since piled on about 34k worry free miles. Had the top replaced under warranty and that was about it. Mechanically, pretty solid (although relatively no frills) car. I probably would not own something like a v10 M5 out of warranty simply because of the complexity. I also found a solid independant shop (Texas German Auto) in Houston to take care of regular maintenance at good prices. All in, one of the best car purchases i've made. Hopefully the straight six normally apsirated engine will last for many more miles. My only complaint is that I chew through tires (don't use run-flats) but that was expected going into the purchase so not a surprise to me and my heavy right foot ;-)
December 22, 2012, 4:23 pm
December 23, 2012, 12:54 am
What is this "warranty" of which you speak? Can I apply it to my 1999 528 with 180K on the odometer? Might save me 1K per year, but who would pay it?
December 23, 2012, 11:57 pm
I have to say I am concerned as well. I had been a faith ful Honda/Acura for several years. And to say that their cars are bullet proof is an understatement.
I have an 09 135i (E82) and While i love it I hope in the back of my mind its as reliable as it is beautiful.
December 24, 2012, 7:26 pm
I have only 180.000 miles on my 1999 528 and it's already showing its age. Maybe you should think about buying something neser.
December 26, 2012, 10:11 am
If low maintenance is your only or main measure of value then buy Honda Civics. If you want performance, then the BMW 5 Series is usually the most reliable of the European performance cars - WAY better than Audi / VW, more and more better as times goes on, than the dwindling number of remotely affordable Mercedes models that offer performance. I'm surprised by the many who say $2 - $3K annually for maintenance, our 1987 E28 averages about $800 and our admittedly newer 1998 E39 has averaged about $450 yet in both cases mechanics always comment on the excellent condition of both vehicles. Having said that, unfortunately right now the 5 Series BMWs are all total lemons in the reliability and longevity of their drive systems. I'll also say that all the mechanics I've used say to never keep a 3 series once out of warranty unless you do a lot of your own work. Hope BMW gets its act back together on the 5 series before I need to buy a car again.
December 26, 2012, 10:47 am
Hope BMW gets its act back together on the 5 series before I need to buy a car again.
BJ
December 26, 2012, 10:49 am
BJ
Fixed!
December 26, 2012, 11:01 am
Fixed!
They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.
BJ
December 26, 2012, 11:13 am
They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.
BJ
December 26, 2012, 11:25 am
Radiator (popped sitting in driveway)
fuel filler door solenoid
emblems
oil filter housing oil leak (massive)
intake CPS
DISA valve gasket
clogged IACV
alternator idler pulley
thrust arm bushings
left to right in-tank siphon hose
ABS Module
leaky door seals
(and the list goes on)
SOME of these could be considered maintenance items, but MANY are things that just SHOULD NOT be issues at that mileage...or at the very least are not issues on other makes. I DIYed all of this, but in that same time I've barely touched our Japanese cars.
December 26, 2012, 4:11 pm
December 26, 2012, 4:14 pm
A $200,000 salary in Appleton, Wisconsin and a $200,000 salary in Manhattan are two very different things yet a BMW still costs $50,000 no matter where you live.
The person in Appleton can afford as much as a $75,000 car whereas the person in Manhattan can only afford a $25,000 car based on cost-of-living.
December 26, 2012, 4:16 pm
December 26, 2012, 4:17 pm
December 26, 2012, 4:19 pm
You are looking at at least $100-150 extra/month to lease a car for that mileage.
That's about the difference to finance the same car, have no mileage restrictions, and get the various other benefits to actually owning. You no longer have to turn-in on a forced time, you may build a bit of equity over the same time period, etc.
December 26, 2012, 4:23 pm
They've created a single car that is both a $50,000 aspirational luxury icon and a $36,000 grocery-getting stripper all at the same time. Those in the stripper are, many times, scrimping together pennies to make that $339 payment to keep up with the Joneses. I feel bad for them, but that's their decision and its certainly keeping BMW in the black.
December 26, 2012, 6:50 pm
Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
December 26, 2012, 6:58 pm
Many Manhattan residents, including some who have very substantial incomes, do not own cars at all. It really is hard to justify but I have always been a "car guy" so car ownership is a luxury I am willing to pay for.
CA
December 26, 2012, 7:08 pm
The original point was that salaries and cost of living vary wildly from driver to driver but the cost of the F30 is the same for all.
So someone in a $50,000 F30 in Appleton can be making $100K a year and living large whereas someone in a $50,000 F30 in San Fransisco can be making $300K a year and living paycheck-to-paycheck.
This was during a debate a few weeks ago as to why some people don't view an F30 as a luxury car when others do. It's all relative to your frame of reference, how much you make, where you live.
BJ
December 26, 2012, 7:34 pm
December 26, 2012, 7:42 pm
BJ
December 26, 2012, 8:55 pm
Fixed!
December 30, 2012, 9:33 am
My feeling is a wise man knows what they have - or are buying. I personally wouldn't consider buying a used BMW that I didn't have an intimate knowledge of how it was maintained and cared for, that wasn't under warranty.
That said, buying a used BMW [or continueing to drive both of mine] from someone that is as anal as I am about my cars and has records as concise as mine are, that show no unexpected issues, woudln't be a problem for me.
I firmly believe BMW is a quality car and will retain that quality with proper upkeep and maintenance.
December 30, 2012, 9:36 am
It's been my experience that there is a significant amount of that upkeep to keep the car working as things keep breaking and especially so compared to all the other cars that I have owned.
January 1, 2013, 9:45 pm
I bought a used 2004 530i with 68K, and now I'm at 89K.
So far I have done:
1)Replaced front control arms (both top and bottom) - I was having a brake shimmy problem. I didn't need to replace my low control arm, but did it anyway due to the mileage of my car.
2)Fixed DISA with Repair and Upgrade kit from German Auto Solutions - My DISA was non-functioning.
3)Replaced Dual Vanos with Dr. Vanos kit - My Vanos system was rattling loud.
4)Replaced CCV system - Preventive replacement.
5)Changed Spark plug - Preventive replacement.
6)Changed out oil filter housing gasket - Mine was leaking.
7)Changed out Brake pads
Other than what I mentioned, minus regular scheduled maintenance, it has been a great dependable car.
January 1, 2013, 10:22 pm
January 1, 2013, 11:05 pm
January 9, 2013, 1:44 pm
I've never owned a BMW (or any car for that matter) *in* warranty. My Z3M is nearing 140k.
The general feeling is, don't buy a BMW you can't afford, used, out of warranty.
If you buy it used and can easily afford it, you'll have money on hand if anything goes wrong. It's always a tradeoff, but I have a hard time imagining a used BMW where you spend more every month on repairs than you spent buying it, unless you're buying some beat salvage title E39 M5 or something.
If you buy an F30 new and plan to keep it for a long time -- why not? By the time it's paid for and out of warranty, again, you'll have plenty of free money to deal with any issues that might come up.
February 4, 2013, 2:08 am
bumping a great thread for the new guys to read through.gives you alot to think about and consider.
February 4, 2013, 5:29 am
I've heard the lower series cars are actually much more reliable. I know a lot of the v8 engines cost more to keep running , burn oil etc.
I've got some faith in BMW. Parents have had 3 and none have give them any major problems . I think one a power window motor died. And my dads 2004 x3 only thing that's ever gone wrong was he had to replace the ac compressor after 7 years. He's finally swelling it after 135k miles and bought a 2013 x3 to replace it. I'm hoping my luck is the same with my first BMW. Two months in no problems so far!
February 4, 2013, 12:30 pm
February 4, 2013, 4:33 pm
February 4, 2013, 5:04 pm
In Santa Monica however, an lower end 1 bedroom is $1700 and a lower end 2 bedroom is $2200. Low income (under about $60,000 married... less if single) is $1500 for a 1 bedroom/lofted studio (which, in my opinion, is unaffordable at that income range).
February 4, 2013, 6:36 pm
February 4, 2013, 6:58 pm
WRT to the OP's header: my intention when "buying" a BMW is that I will keep it until it dies, regardless of warranty so long as it remains reliable. We kept our 318i for over 20 years. It didn't die, but it was time to sell it. We sold our 325i after only 10 years with less than 70k miles, because it did not occur to me: first, moving outside of a non-SULEV friendly state made you ineligible for the extended emissions warranty; second, that the SULEV had a sealed gas tank where the fuel pump is housed, making for a major repair around 10-15 yr mark (approx considering the extended emissions warranty is 15/150k) out of warranty. I supposed we could have kept it for another 5 years betting that the emissions related parts like the fuel pump would last as long as the warranty period, but with money being nearly free these days to borrow (we normally pay cash, but it is nearly free these days at .5%) and the incentives being offered, we let it go. If not for the SULEV crap, we would have most assuredly had the car for at least another 10 years since the car did not have any major or medium issues and it was just damn reliable. It sucked getting rid of it, my wife was rather sad actually. Our 3 year old 335D and our new 328xi will remain with us hopefully for a very long time, but again we will gauge it depending on how reliable they remain.
There are lemons in every car maker's fleet, but we've been fortunate to have gotten reliable cars. This doesn't mean regular maintenance doesn't cost, it does; however, I think people who cannot afford something have a tendency to let things slide like a little leak or something just for the ownership. We aren't that way. We understand that owning a BMW has its expense, and even if our indie mechanic says it's only a small leak or it can wait, we don't let it wait.
February 5, 2013, 8:23 am
I had to ditch my 2004 X5 with 90K miles on it because the repair costs had become equal to what I'd be paying monthly for a new car with all the new technology. boltjaM3s makes some valid, if somewhat snobbish, points about being in a luxury car. I plan on spending $800 a month either on payments or repairs so I might as well be driving a new one. Plus--and this I can not emphasize enough--the chicks dig it.
"cheating their way into the roundel" is a keeper.
February 5, 2013, 10:10 pm
However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.
(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks
But, with a new turbo 4 engine....'maybe' an extended warranty might be worth it...if only to offset the worry factor.
February 5, 2013, 10:14 pm
"cheating their way into the roundel" is a keeper.
The X5's reliability has never approached that of the 3 series (more specifically, the 328's) sedans and coupes (again...per Consumer Reports).
February 5, 2013, 10:21 pm
For the 10 years I lived in Manhattan, I had a car in an expensive garage because it was my ticket out of the city every week. Visiting family on Long Island, cruising out to football games in New Jersey, hauling it up to Vermont for skiing, the Hamptons, and on and on.
BJ
February 5, 2013, 10:23 pm