Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 26, 2012, 5:02 pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
.
4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.
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This is not BMW.
This is the direction of the automobile.
Get used to it or just drive a decades old car for the rest of your life.
V-8 trucks...America!
-V-6's are now being embraced. First with Fords Ecoboost, now with the Ram and PentaStar. People pay attention to MPG figures now, even with bigger/heavier vehicles. CAFE standards are not letting up anytime soon. You also see the Ecoboost 2.0 in the Ford Edge, Taurus(Explorer too I think), 4000lb vehicles.
Midsize sedans, V-6=premium!
-I think it started with Hyundai. They ditched the V6 being offered which allowed platform design to be 4 cylinder specific which saved weight. The V6 take rate is always small on these cars, maybe 10-15%, willing to bet the 2.0T is 100% as strong if not stronger. More and more cars followed suit, the Malibu is now 4cyl+turbo only, the Fusion also.
Entry level Luxury, nothing luxurious about a 4 cylinder!
-Might have started with Audi and the B8 A4. It started with the 2.0T and the 3.2 3.2 was canned due to sales. Infiniti brought in a base engine, a lower output V6 and it barely lasted a year. The C class, when the redesign came, brought a 201hp SUB 2.0L 4. Sales seem to be pretty solid considering it's an old platform. The ATS brought with it an 2.0L 4 as well(lets ignore the 2.5L as it's fail city).
So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....
IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.
So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading.
So you can lament all you want. Fact is, this is where the industry is now and is going in the future. Even Jaguar now has the 2.0L 4 in the XF, and V8's replaced in the XJ with a 6. Even the A8 has downsized to a 6 for the base engine(just as the 7series did).
So who is in fantasyland now? This is the real world. Where car companies who want to make money and keep up with CAFE downsize their engines.
December 16, 2012, 4:58 pm
Find a dealer that offers F30 loaners. I hope to get one next time I go in for service. The dealer's been waiting for AWD models to add the F30 to the loaner fleet.
December 16, 2012, 6:29 pm
Other than what's on paper, I want to know what are your thoughts on living with E90 day to day vs F30.
I heard everywhere that the interior quality has improved over E90. I recently got to sit in a F30 and I do have to say they Did cut back on 'soft-touch' plastic on certain surfaces.
The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.
The 20% that is different is a big deal:
Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.
Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.
Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.
Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.
Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.
Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.
Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.
Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.
It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.
Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.
Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.
Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.
Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 6:38 pm
So he should keep his E90?
December 16, 2012, 7:33 pm
E90 comparison versus F30
(this is a poorly written article that I found on Wilkpedia, but it does quote Car and Driver)
New F30 saloon is 93 mm (3.7 in) longer, 6 mm (0.2 in) wider (42 mm (1.7 in) including mirrors) and 8 mm (0.3 in) taller than its predecessor (E90). The wheelbase is longer by 50 mm (2.0 in). Also boot space is bigger by 20 litres (0.71 cu ft). Even though the new 3 Series is bigger and has more standard equipment than its predecessors, it is lighter than the model it replaces. For example, the new 328i has the same weight as the outgoing 325i and the new 335i is 40 kilograms (88 lb) lighter than the outgoing 335i.[20]
Notable downgrades to the new 3-series from its E90 predecessor include the deletion of LED turn signals in both the headlight and tail light clusters (with the return to traditional bulbs), as well as the replacement of non-intrusive, articulated gas-strut trunk hinges with cheaper, obstructive gooseneck hinges.
Enthusiast magazine reviews were also less than stellar. In their November, 2012, issue, Car and Driver wrote, "We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30." [1] In the April, 2012, issue they noted an increase in weight, versus the BMW's suggestion of a loss: "weight gain from our last E90 335i test car is 77 pounds, at least some of which must be from the new optional 19-inch wheels ($900) . . . ." Furthermore, acceleration suffered in comparison to the E90 as well, "A slower 5-to-60 time of 5.9 seconds-we expected mid-fives for that-also indicated that something may have been amiss. The magazine closed the generally ambivalent article with, "At some point, BMW will have to take a bigger step to move forward or risk falling behind its competitors"
December 16, 2012, 8:03 pm
Excellent replies.
Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?
December 16, 2012, 8:22 pm
Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?
If anything, the 3 Series has gained more feel if you define "feel" as a car that is faster, more powerful, and acts lighter and more nimble.
If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 8:29 pm
I have to confess that I have not driven an F30 yet, but I am pretty certain that I am definitely going to enjoy it as much or more than my E90.
Besides, I'm getting a new car anyway, and it's not like there are hundreds of options to choose from, right?
Cadillac ATS?
Infiniti G?
Lexus IS?
Mercedes C350?
Ford Mustang GT?
Dodge Charger RT/MAX?
December 16, 2012, 8:56 pm
Other than what's on paper, I want to know what are your thoughts on living with E90 day to day vs F30.
I heard everywhere that the interior quality has improved over E90. I recently got to sit in a F30 and I do have to say they Did cut back on 'soft-touch' plastic on certain surfaces.
Ride: F30
Handling: F30 (even with narrow tires it'll take the same corners much better than my e90s)
Space: F30
Interior fit and finish: F30
Cockpit design: F30
Exterior styling: F30
Overall size: E90 (easy, the F30 is massive)
Suspension: F30
Engine: F30
Economy: F30
Luxury features: F30
Driving feel: e90 without a doubt.
NVH: 330i e90 (not my 335i e90)
Engine sound: E90 330i (not the 335i...which had no engine sound)
Transmission: e90 330i
Brakes: F30
Tires: e90 335i (F30 has some insanely bad/narrow tires on sport models)
Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.
December 16, 2012, 9:02 pm
Ride: F30
Handling: F30 (even with narrow tires it'll take the same corners much better than my e90s)
Space: F30
Interior fit and finish: F30
Cockpit design: F30
Exterior styling: F30
Overall size: E90 (easy, the F30 is massive)
Suspension: F30
Engine: F30
Economy: F30
Luxury features: F30
Driving feel: e90 without a doubt.
NVH: 330i e90 (not my 335i e90)
Engine sound: E90 330i (not the 335i...which had no engine sound)
Transmission: e90 330i
Brakes: F30
Tires: e90 335i (F30 has some insanely bad/narrow tires on sport models)
Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.
No staggered set up on F30 Sport's?
December 16, 2012, 9:07 pm
Ride: F30
Handling: F30 (even with narrow tires it'll take the same corners much better than my e90s)
Space: F30
Interior fit and finish: F30
Cockpit design: F30
Exterior styling: F30
Overall size: E90 (easy, the F30 is massive)
Suspension: F30
Engine: F30
Economy: F30
Luxury features: F30
Driving feel: e90 without a doubt.
NVH: 330i e90 (not my 335i e90)
Engine sound: E90 330i (not the 335i...which had no engine sound)
Transmission: e90 330i
Brakes: F30
Tires: e90 335i (F30 has some insanely bad/narrow tires on sport models)
Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.
December 16, 2012, 9:26 pm
No staggered set up on F30 Sport's?
I realize that in the US, if you order VSS, you also have to get the M adaptive suspension, which my car also has. This is another worthwhile option. I would far rather spend my option budget on features that improve the feel and handling of the car than on technical toys like HUD.
As for staggered set-ups, if you ordered the M sport version, you get a proper staggered set-up with summer performance tires (non-staggered all-seasons are an option, only in the US). For the Sportline version, if you opt for the 19" wheels/tires, you would get staggered summer performance tires.
When comparing the styling of my current 335i M Sport to past BMWs that I have owned, the only retired car that stands out for me is the E46/ZHP coupe. But I really admire the styling of my M Sport !!! To my eyes, the M Sport stands well above any of the other F30 versions or any of the competitors.
My suggestion is that you borrow a F30 Sportline or M Sport and drive it for at least an hour over a variety of roads and at higher speeds. Although the car is slightly larger, it doesn't feel larger, but it does feel more solid (because it is a stronger body shell) and it is quieter @ higher speeds. However, the N55 engine still makes some wonderful sounds !!!
December 16, 2012, 9:32 pm
...
If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 9:44 pm
It's not bad, it's just different. At speed, took me two days to get used to it, to have the car respond the way I was used to after 6 years in E9X's. When parking or navigating the driveway, it's a dream, far less endless turning to deal with.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 10:04 pm
It's not bad, it's just different. At speed, took me two days to get used to it, to have the car respond the way I was used to after 6 years in E9X's. When parking or navigating the driveway, it's a dream, far less endless turning to deal with.
BJ
Does your car have active steering?
CA
December 16, 2012, 10:13 pm
What's making F30 have less driving feel? Other than EPS..
December 16, 2012, 10:14 pm
Does your car have active steering?
CA
The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)
When I drive on roadways and highways, the steering feels the same to me. When at a dead stop making a 3-point turn in a tight driveway, the new steering requires half as much force, no longer getting a P90X workout just getting out of the garage.
From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter.
Let me know if that makes sense.
Also, for the OP, my perspective is from the least 'sporty' configuration. I have a Luxury line with the standard comfort suspension. Those with Sport lines and sport suspensions will tell you that the F30 feels the same or better than the E90, based on reading past threads.
My advice to you: Get to a dealer, arrange for a test drive. Make sure you hit the "Sport" button. If after 1000 feet of driving you don't have a smile on your face, stick with the E90.
BJ
December 16, 2012, 11:03 pm
The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)
When I drive on roadways and highways, the steering feels the same to me. When at a dead stop making a 3-point turn in a tight driveway, the new steering requires half as much force, no longer getting a P90X workout just getting out of the garage.
From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter.
Let me know if that makes sense.
Also, for the OP, my perspective is from the least 'sporty' configuration. I have a Luxury line with the standard comfort suspension. Those with Sport lines and sport suspensions will tell you that the F30 feels the same or better than the E90, based on reading past threads.
My advice to you: Get to a dealer, arrange for a test drive. Make sure you hit the "Sport" button. If after 1000 feet of driving you don't have a smile on your face, stick with the E90.
BJ
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30. In a sense that is a moot point since the E90 is no longer available. What would make more sense is to compare the F30 to competitors that are currently available and in that respect it seems to be holding its own. After my experiences with the 335i and the 750 I will never buy a New York car that does not have an adjustable suspension.
I willl not be buying an F30 (I am sure it is an excellent car but I have no use for a small sedan) but will look at the 4 Series Cabrio when it was released. I will also look at a number of other cars and an particularly interested in the new Jaguar F-Type.
I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,
December 16, 2012, 11:31 pm
I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,
F30's EPS requires much less effort to turn, hence it also gives impression you are driving a much lighter vehicle. It losses quite a bit of road feel. BJ's perception is fairly spot-on:
""The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)
...
From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter."
December 16, 2012, 11:55 pm
I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,
I DO like that heaviness. Very confident to command it around bends. This is the main reason I don't like EPS.. on straight's it just feels like I can drive it off road with a small jolt to the wheel....
One complain I have with E90 steering that EPS excel at is the center vagueness. It's way too slow and less accurate in the middle. EPS's never have that, they are way more accurate even on a Corolla...
December 17, 2012, 12:27 am
No staggered set up on F30 Sport's?
December 17, 2012, 12:39 am
I DO like that heaviness. Very confident to command it around bends. This is the main reason I don't like EPS.. on straight's it just feels like I can drive it off road with a small jolt to the wheel....
One complain I have with E90 steering that EPS excel at is the center vagueness. It's way too slow and less accurate in the middle. EPS's never have that, they are way more accurate even on a Corolla...
So the next time someone thinks that the steering on his car is too heavy keep in mind that a disabled woman has no problem with it.
CA
December 17, 2012, 12:44 am
December 17, 2012, 12:50 am
I had a pre-LCI E93 and I found that the LCI E90 had more steering feel but I'm not sure if that's for technical reasons or because the XDrive Sedan had different driving characteristics than the RWD Cabrio.
I've driven E36's and E46's and those cars had SERIOUS road feel and planted steering. Almost like a go-kart. Extremely connected, extremely fun. Legendary.
The E90's and F30's are nothing like those cars. Comparing the road feel and/or steering between the E90 and F30 is like a 5%-er whereas compared to those earlier rides it would be comparing a magnitude of 50%.
While it's an interesting topic of discussion, the truth is it's a non-issue. Someone coming from an E36 to an F30 would have a seizure over what's happened to the 3 Series. Someone coming from an E90 to an F30 would merely say "oh, that's slightly different".
BJ
December 17, 2012, 1:00 am
pre-LCI E93 and I found that the LCI E90 had more steering feel
December 17, 2012, 1:26 am
What's more important is road feel (suspension tightness, handling in twisties, not steering) and what you need to know is this:
If you want superior road feel than your E90, you need to buy a used E36.
If you want equal road feel to your E90, you need to buy an F30 with the sport suspension.
If you want less road feel but a more comfortable ride than your E90, you need to buy an F30 with the standard suspension.
If you want the ability to change road feel on-the-fly, you need to buy an F30 with the Adaptive M Suspension.
With the steering questions, you're barking up the wrong tree. It's the F30 suspension that's markedly different than the E90. That's where your focus should be.
BJ
December 17, 2012, 1:35 am
boltjaM3s,
I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..
December 17, 2012, 1:58 am
I've posted this before, I'll post it again. My 2006 E90 330i has active steering. IMO when set to sport mode the F30 feels virtually the same as my car and is every bit as direct and precise. I didn't drive the F30 in non-sport mode, because I would never drive one I owned that way.
I've driven many, many non-active steering E90s, E92s, and E93s on many occasions. I have no issue switching between my active steering and non-active steering.
Before I got my E90 I drove a 2004 E46 ZHP and a non-sport 2000 E46 328i.
I hope to get a chance soon to drive an F30 with variable sport steering.
I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.
December 17, 2012, 2:08 am
I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.
I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..
BJ
December 17, 2012, 12:03 pm
Since I live in a city, the new 3-series and Audi A4 can't be on my shopping list. They're just too big. The VW GTI, Audi A3, Subaru WRX, and BMW X1 fit my life much better. I owned a 1998 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2006 BMW 330Cic (E46 generation), and the new A4 and 3-series are utterly massive in comparison.
December 17, 2012, 2:28 pm
I've posted this before, I'll post it again. My 2006 E90 330i has active steering. IMO when set to sport mode the F30 feels virtually the same as my car and is every bit as direct and precise. I didn't drive the F30 in non-sport mode, because I would never drive one I owned that way.
I've driven many, many non-active steering E90s, E92s, and E93s on many occasions. I have no issue switching between my active steering and non-active steering.
Before I got my E90 I drove a 2004 E46 ZHP and a non-sport 2000 E46 328i.
I hope to get a chance soon to drive an F30 with variable sport steering.
I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.
That's how Porsche has tailored their electric steering in the new 911. I'm not so sure BMW has the system set up that way. I believe it does actively boost steering with different modes(Sport,Sport + etc)
December 17, 2012, 2:42 pm
December 17, 2012, 3:02 pm
Since I live in a city, the new 3-series and Audi A4 can't be on my shopping list. They're just too big. The VW GTI, Audi A3, Subaru WRX, and BMW X1 fit my life much better. I owned a 1998 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2006 BMW 330Cic (E46 generation), and the new A4 and 3-series are utterly massive in comparison.
Now we seem to be on a cycle where small cars are getting bigger. The Honda Accords and BMW 3 Series of today compared to the 1980 would be a good example. Virtually no manufacture is making a 3 door hatchback today and compact hatchbacks were one of the most popular configurations 25 years ago.
CA
December 17, 2012, 3:19 pm
Thank god they still sell Lotus Elises/Exiges that have no power steering at all (Like my AW11 MR2), they offer the best road feel.
Check out the latest Motortrend they did a comparison between the latest EPS BMW has versus their older hydraulic based steering rack.
December 17, 2012, 3:44 pm
Here is some good information for you but obviously you have to drive them both back to back.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...x-vs-four.html
What Works:
Superb ride quality, yet still capable on twisty roads; strong four-cylinder engine almost makes you stop wanting a six; interior is spacious and well-built, with a logical control layout.
What Needs Work:
Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional.
Bottom Line:
The base 3 Series has never been quicker or more comfortable. It doesn't feel as much like a sport sedan as the old 328i, but unless you're truly hard-core, you probably won't care.
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...and-video.html
December 17, 2012, 3:53 pm
For what it's worth, the British enthusiast car mags like EVO and CAR, who are way more unbiased than paid advertisers like C&D or Motor Trend, love the F30 and the new 135i, both of which even they say have no steering feel whatsoever.
They basically love the cars despite the lack of steering feel.
December 17, 2012, 3:54 pm
Thank god they still sell Lotus Elises/Exiges that have no power steering at all (Like my AW11 MR2), they offer the best road feel.
Check out the latest Motortrend they did a comparison between the latest EPS BMW has versus their older hydraulic based steering rack.
I drove a rental Toyota Yaris with no power steering in Curacao. That was kind of exciting, trying to keep it on the road amongst the rolling hills.
December 17, 2012, 4:24 pm
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...x-vs-four.html
What Works:
Superb ride quality, yet still capable on twisty roads; strong four-cylinder engine almost makes you stop wanting a six; interior is spacious and well-built, with a logical control layout.
What Needs Work:
Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor; and tell us again why power seats and adjustable lumbar are optional.
Bottom Line:
The base 3 Series has never been quicker or more comfortable. It doesn't feel as much like a sport sedan as the old 328i, but unless you're truly hard-core, you probably won't care.
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...and-video.html
December 17, 2012, 5:28 pm
Having said that BMWNA deserves the brunt of the blame, because the reviewers only test cars that BMWNA supplies. Knowing the tests are going to focus on near at-the-limit performance it is truly stupid for BMWNA to supply cars that are not equipped for maximum performance results. Heck, if BMWNA would supply cars for testing that had summer performance tires AND the Dynamic Handling package we would be reading reviews that talked about how well the F30 handles and that for a mere $1,000 you can have a car that is able to transform from a luxury highway cruiser to a track ready sport machine with just the push of a button. Gotta wonder what marketing genius is running the test car loaner operation at BMWNA.
December 17, 2012, 5:46 pm
When I bought my 2013 F30 I didn't even know that the DHP existed or that the Adaptive M could make a harsh suspension soft. I assumed because it had the "M" in the name that it was going to be something I wouldn't want.
Between the dealers and BMW themselves, they do a really bad job of getting the word out on important features.
BJ
December 17, 2012, 9:41 pm
So the next time someone thinks that the steering on his car is too heavy keep in mind that a disabled woman has no problem with it.
CA
December 21, 2012, 1:59 am
If anything, the 3 Series has gained more feel if you define "feel" as a car that is faster, more powerful, and acts lighter and more nimble.
If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.
BJ
And your post below (in the link) was not very nice. Just because someone bought a pre-owned BMW doesn't mean they're a secondary citizen on these forums.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...54&postcount=6
December 21, 2012, 5:07 am
335i coupe owner who had a F30 328i base loaner for a week.
- The steering is definitely firmer on the E9x. When I finally got my car back I noticed this immediately.
- The power of the 328i engine is very good (not 335i amazing, but very quick.)
- The noise of the 328i sucks in comparison to my 335i though.
- Ride was better in the base 328i vs my 335i coupe w/ 18in wheels
- Handling was worse in the base 328i (not an apples to apples comparison since the 328i didn't have at least sports suspension). I drove it on "The Snake" in Malibu and it definitely felt more out of control than my 335i.
- The interior materials were fine, but I didn't like the leatherette compared with my leather seating surfaces
- The trunk hinges didn't bother me (probably because the loaner had comfort access). I started just doing the kick to open the trunk.
- Comfort steering is weird when you push it mid corner (it felt like it tightened). Sports steering felt great at speed and was still lighter than my E92 steering.
All in all I think the F30 is great. I'm not giving my 335i yet, but who knows when the new 4 series or 2 series comes out.
December 21, 2012, 8:04 am
BJ, you're putting your car on a pedestal.
Unless I'm misreading, you own an 10-year-old 5 Series, you haven't owned an E90 or an F30 so I'm struggling to understand how you add anything of value to this particular conversation.
BJ
December 21, 2012, 10:04 am
Unless I'm misreading, you own an 10-year-old 5 Series, you haven't owned an E90 or an F30 so I'm struggling to understand how you add anything of value to this particular conversation.
BJ
Soon anyone who just got a new F30 could also feel violated knowing BJ is here driving a used two-year-old car.
December 21, 2012, 10:56 am
- The steering is definitely firmer on the E9x. When I finally got my car back I noticed this immediately.
- The power of the 328i engine is very good (not 335i amazing, but very quick.)
- The noise of the 328i sucks in comparison to my 335i though.
- Ride was better in the base 328i vs my 335i coupe w/ 18in wheels
- Handling was worse in the base 328i (not an apples to apples comparison since the 328i didn't have at least sports suspension). I drove it on "The Snake" in Malibu and it definitely felt more out of control than my 335i.
- The interior materials were fine, but I didn't like the leatherette compared with my leather seating surfaces
- The trunk hinges didn't bother me (probably because the loaner had comfort access). I started just doing the kick to open the trunk.
- Comfort steering is weird when you push it mid corner (it felt like it tightened). Sports steering felt great at speed and was still lighter than my E92 steering.
All in all I think the F30 is great. I'm not giving my 335i yet, but who knows when the new 4 series or 2 series comes out.
My dealer recently gave me a F30 335 Sport loaded to the nines. That car with it's less grippy tires and less grippy pads made my smaller braked 328 feel like a more confidence inspiring car. The standard pads and all season tires make the F30 brakes very un BMW like.
The handling of an F30 BASE loaner they gave me, lots of body roll and felt floaty at highway speeds.
December 22, 2012, 1:48 am
Just came out of a 328i xDrive loaner that I had for a few days while my E92 335i xDrive was in for service.
My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.
At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.
It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.
Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!
December 22, 2012, 9:42 am
My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.
At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.
It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.
Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!
I had stop start coded at the dealer, no need to press a button.
I only press ONE button when I get in the car, and that's to set it to SPORT.
X-Drives are not available with the Sport suspension and every standard suspension F30 I have driven has felt lacking and does not present itself well to former E90 drivers.
December 22, 2012, 10:16 am
It appears BMW is trying to address the concerns of the euthusiasts. A coilover suspension system will be available that will lower the body by 20mm, twice that of the sport or m-sport. The performance exhaust is also available.
I am curious if the coilover can be ordered from the factory. The exhaust can be ordered and installed at the port of entry.
With this two items, the driving dynamics can be vastly improved. Even BMW stressed they are improving the "chassis" with the performance parts. I think they heard enough about the ATS chassis
December 22, 2012, 10:27 am
December 22, 2012, 10:31 am
I am curious if the coilover can be ordered from the factory. The exhaust can be ordered and installed at the port of entry.
With this two items, the driving dynamics can be vastly improved. Even BMW stressed they are improving the "chassis" with the performance parts. I think they heard enough about the ATS chassis
These parts were in development a long time ago.
Do you think OEM's just whip up, design, engineer, test, and tool up for production in a couple of months time?
December 22, 2012, 10:31 am
Even with SP, the F30 still suffers with too soft dampers and uncommunicative steering. There are plenty of good reasons to go with a F30, but road feel is not one of them.
December 22, 2012, 11:04 am
These parts were in development a long time ago.
Do you think OEM's just whip up, design, engineer, test, and tool up for production in a couple of months time?
Anyway the price and labor list is just out, the coilover system parts alone is almost $2k, with 8 hours of labor, and only for m-sport. If you have a non m-sport, need new subframe parts replaced too. Clearly not a reasonable approach for chassis improvement.
The performance exhaust systems are probably the most bang for the buck items, can be ordered, even residualized at lease.
December 22, 2012, 11:15 am
Anyway the price and labor list is just out, the coilover system parts alone is almost $2k, with 8 hours of labor, and only for m-sport. If you have a non m-sport, need new subframe parts replaced too. Clearly not a reasonable approach for chassis improvement.
The performance exhaust systems are probably the most bang for the buck items, can be ordered, even residualized at lease.
December 22, 2012, 11:58 am
I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..
Having done max M conversion, steering is tight @ sweet. But lacks the magic of Porsche.
With beyond stock neg camber, remarkably effortless handling....deceptively strong.
.
December 24, 2012, 12:14 am
The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.
The 20% that is different is a big deal:
Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.
Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.
Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.
Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.
Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.
Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.
Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.
Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.
It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.
Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.
Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.
Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.
Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.
BJ
The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.
Materials are cheaper PERIOD.
8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.
December 24, 2012, 8:21 am
The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.
Materials are cheaper PERIOD.
8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.
Also, you have one of the earlier E90's. Once they started decontenting those ca. 2009, they had increased road noise too.
December 24, 2012, 8:31 am
The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.
Materials are cheaper PERIOD.
8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.
December 24, 2012, 9:33 am
The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.
Materials are cheaper PERIOD.
8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.
Turbo 4 vs. Inline 6: If you don't feel a power difference between the old 328i and the new 328i then you were in a car with a bad engine. The first thing anyone will notice coming from an E90 to an F30 is how much more responsive and powerful the new engine is. Night and day different. No comparison.
Road Noise: A no-line stripper probably has less sound deadening material. My Luxury line is much quieter than my E90 was.
Materials: Again with this "cheaper" myth. It's all the same. Door panels, dashboard, console, just a different design with the same plastics. If anything, the cup holders, door handles, storage compartments and other areas where your limbs actually touch the car are better designed and more comfortable. BMW claims many soft-touch areas with materials that cost more than the outgoing model.
You love your old car. We get it. No need to slam the new one.
BJ
December 24, 2012, 9:48 am
The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.
Materials are cheaper PERIOD.
8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.
There are opinions and there are facts.
It has been a factual discovery that the N20 makes a substantial amount more torque than the outgoing N52.
I have heard it directly from tuners that before they would not have gotten into offering tuning products for the base 3 before as it was not worth it but were impressed with the out of box performance and potential of the N20.
December 24, 2012, 11:49 am
There are opinions and there are facts.
It has been a factual discovery that the N20 makes a substantial amount more torque than the outgoing N52.
I have heard it directly from tuners that before they would not have gotten into offering tuning products for the base 3 before as it was not worth it but were impressed with the out of box performance and potential of the N20.
December 24, 2012, 11:53 am
December 24, 2012, 12:31 pm
And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.
If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.
E90 328i manual
F30 328i manual
The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...
December 24, 2012, 12:49 pm
If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.
The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...
The F30 is just flat out faster.
BJ
December 24, 2012, 12:54 pm
If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.
E90 328i manual
F30 328i manual
The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...
You are picking and choosing certain tests to focus on, and give examples like Automobiles dyno which seems to be the lowest recorded N20 Dynojet I have seen.
You show Car and Drivers test that were done years apart, different drivers, different days, all kinds of variables. But you want to focus on the 2 tenth closeness of the 5-60mph to prove a point. At the same time, 0-100 is a good indicator of power(0-60, it depends on a lot on number of shifts etc) and your own example has the 0-100 of 14.5 vs 16.1. That is substantial.
You also have top gear acceleration which shows in YOUR example the N20 has quite a substantial pull compared to the N52, 30-50/50-70 at 9.5/7.7 seconds for the N20 vs 10.4/10 seconds for the N52. That is being nice and using your articles, not ones I can find that have better 0-60, lower ETs, higher traps etc. So top gear 50-70 shows a 2.3 second advantage for the N20, but you want to be hung up on YOUR examples in the one magazine on different days that show 6.4 vs 6.6 for 5-60mph?
Then you want to factor in actual MPG returns from magazine testing. Again, tons of variables there at play. EPA is not perfect, but it isolates variables that allow comparison car to car. If you really think that real world testing favors the N52 as the more efficient engine than the N20 than you are simply wrong. Real world testing is not having one magazine review done years apart from another. A better indicator?
Tirerack did testing on the same tire, I think it's the Michelin Super Sport, same loop, they have an F30 AND and E92 test. The F30 was more efficient by a bit over 10%. Earth shattering, no. But come on, the N52 is flat out not going to provide better fuel economy.
edit: To be unscientific. My proposed reasoning for the N20 not impressing with it's 5-60 time?
Torque.
With the 6mt and all that tq available so low, I get quite a bit of wheelspin in 1st gear, a solid spin into 2nd, and even flash my traction control light sometimes on an aggressive 2-3 shift. The N20 is in more need of traction, more need of a proper LSD than the N52. So the N52 has an easier time of putting power down and going from lower speeds. But as the 0-100 and top gears numbers show you, when traction(and managing the N20's torque) is out of the way, it is substantially faster.
While this is not scientific, it is a decent hypothesis. I have about 300 passes in the 1/4 in a variety of cars thanks to bracket racing. I was a stickler for 60ft times and traction/planting power.
December 24, 2012, 12:56 pm
With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.
December 24, 2012, 12:57 pm
With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.
The N52 s I have driven do feel smoother as it approaches redline. But they give up quite a bit of tq off the line and mid-range surge compared to the N20.
December 24, 2012, 5:22 pm
The F30 is just flat out faster.
BJ
Anyway, say thanks to the shorter ratio ZF 8-speed for your feeling as initial acceleration, because overall hard facts states that the F30 328i is not significantly quicker than the E90 328i. Same ball park at best.
Here in this F30 328i automatic comparo over 300 miles, C&D observed only 21mpg, again much worse than what they observed in any I6 E9X (except the obese convertible). When you push those little forced-induction engines, you get worse fuel economy than expected. It is absolutely hilarious that the N20 Step certified EPA figures are no better than the N55.
And factor in the engine note that was lost in the transition, the N20 is a blow against 3-series virtues. Old M54 and early 2006 N52 were feeling so much better.
December 24, 2012, 5:24 pm
With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.
And I am not saying that everyone needs the best acceleration. The current exchange is about choices in engine technology.
December 24, 2012, 6:11 pm
I have a 2011 335d. Prior to that I had a 2006 330i. I love the power/economy of the 335d. It's a pretty unique combination of power and economy. I purchased the car used with about 8,000 miles.
F30's were available but I didn't feel drawn to them. Like others have stated - 80% similar.
But when the 4 series comes out, with an inevitable engine change shortly thereafter, I know I'll reconsider. But for now, very happy with my choice.
December 24, 2012, 6:48 pm
And I am not saying that everyone needs the best acceleration. The current exchange is about choices in engine technology.
I am not saying you are wrong, we like to keep our revs high, most people don't.
December 24, 2012, 6:55 pm
I am not saying you are wrong, we like to keep our revs high, most people don't.
An engine with a disproportionate amount of lower end torque feels so great at the low end that it misleads you into thinking you've got more power than you do. Hence, once you take it on the highway and open the throttle, there's the sensation of it "losing steam" at some point.
The sense of power is something that can be changed by throttle mapping and transmission shift points (in an automatic). When the engine doesn't produce enough torque at the low end, you better hope that your automatic transmission is willing to aggressively kick down when it seems like the driver wants more power.
EDIT: I have to say though, after driving a turbo-4 for 2 years, the thing I like the least about them is the brief turbo "lag" that is a result of cruising at low RPMs and then suddenly flooring it. If you catch the engine off guard, it might take a second or two for full thrust to kick in. Otherwise, it comes nearly instantaneously. That lack of consistency has always bugged me, and when I test drove the 328i I felt a similar effect, though it's far less pronounced compared to the Audi 2.0T.
December 24, 2012, 7:39 pm
N20 feels more powerful at low RPM than N52, N52 feels the best at high RPM or WOT.
December 24, 2012, 7:41 pm
December 24, 2012, 7:58 pm
Again, N52 feels quite powerful if you like to rev and keep it high, shifting gears to maintain the rev between 4k to 6k, it is plenty fast, but more importantly, smooth while you are at it, which encourages you to rev. This is what made the BMW N/A I6 attractive. A tradition that is no longer.
December 24, 2012, 8:13 pm
I am going to skip some of the silly things I saw.
The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.
In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.
Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.
My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.
December 24, 2012, 8:24 pm
The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.
In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.
Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.
My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.
Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
December 24, 2012, 9:06 pm
Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
December 24, 2012, 9:19 pm
Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.
December 24, 2012, 9:27 pm
December 24, 2012, 9:46 pm
Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
Ok, so power may fall off faster in an N20. But what if the N20 has enough of a power advantage over the N52 that it's fall off at redline equals the N52 at it's peak/
Basically if you study both cars on the same dyno at the same day, you may find that between 0-7000rpms, at NO point does an N52 make more power than an N20.
I am not SURE that's the case, but before we get caughtup in power fall-off, it's something to consider.
December 24, 2012, 9:48 pm
It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.
December 25, 2012, 9:55 am
It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.
December 25, 2012, 12:10 pm
No forced induction manual trans setup offered.
Going from the Roadster to the 3, I don't feel sad. I would feel sad to get into a Camry.
December 25, 2012, 12:38 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Q2G...C7F9B68#t=274s
Go to 4:45
December 25, 2012, 1:38 pm
Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.
Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.
Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.
December 25, 2012, 2:25 pm
As far as "driving feel" and balance is concerned:
E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.
But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.
I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.
If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.
December 25, 2012, 3:14 pm
E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.
But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.
I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.
If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.
This E90 vs. F30 "battle" is silly, especially when it comes to handling because the difference between the two is a 2%er at most. An E36 driver would have a seizure in an F30, throw his hands up in despair wondering what BMW has done to the 3 Series. An E90 driver gets into an F30 and says "oh, that feels a little different".
The F30 is a logical, mature progression from the E90. Neither the E90 nor the F30 are anything resembling an E36 or E46. Those that want to hold onto their E90's and skip the F30 can do so, but they're not like some E36 purists back in 2006 doing it for the "right" reasons if you will. E90 owners don't have those kind of performance differentiators to justify that decision.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 3:16 pm
Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.
Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.
Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 3:42 pm
BJ
December 25, 2012, 3:49 pm
This is coming from a guy who likes naturally aspirated, high revving engines.
December 25, 2012, 3:50 pm
Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 3:58 pm
Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 4:06 pm
This thread is about the E90 vs. the F30.
All of us in F30's once owned E90's and now we're in F30's. Go figure. I know that those of you who hold onto your old cars are yearning for rationale for that decision but you're barking up the wrong tree.
You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 4:12 pm
December 25, 2012, 4:16 pm
You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 4:27 pm
The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's. You want to debate the 335i's you go right ahead, but for the 328i's there is no contest.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 5:04 pm
December 25, 2012, 5:35 pm
Your 184hp straight 6 is a dog, it is smooth. I give you that. It does make nice induction sounds. I give you that. It's called being impartial. BUT, just as it is a deal breaker for some to lose out on those things, it's a deal breaker for me and others to have such a low powered base engine in the 328. In the past, the 328 was something I let my wife drive, and let's face it many base 3's from before, today and the future, those are who is driving them.
Instead, the N20 which I showed you FACTUALLY with your own numbers is SECONDS faster in meaningful measurements, and EPA MPG testing, or more realistic and accurate testing(or members who have had N52s and now have N20's), and the fact is you should know that factory forced induction has a lot of room for improved performance while the N52 had next to nothing. That appeals to plenty of people like me. My car will have an exhaust, tune, downpipe and intercooler and net 300+whp while keeping the 30+ MPG I regularly average. PLEASE PLEASE show me 300whp bolt on N52's with no forced induction where drivers indicate averaging 30+mpg.
December 25, 2012, 6:13 pm
The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's.
BJ
December 25, 2012, 6:28 pm
Your 184hp straight 6 is a dog, it is smooth. I give you that. It does make nice induction sounds. I give you that. It's called being impartial. BUT, just as it is a deal breaker for some to lose out on those things, it's a deal breaker for me and others to have such a low powered base engine in the 328. In the past, the 328 was something I let my wife drive, and let's face it many base 3's from before, today and the future, those are who is driving them.
Instead, the N20 which I showed you FACTUALLY with your own numbers is SECONDS faster in meaningful measurements, and EPA MPG testing, or more realistic and accurate testing(or members who have had N52s and now have N20's), and the fact is you should know that factory forced induction has a lot of room for improved performance while the N52 had next to nothing. That appeals to plenty of people like me. My car will have an exhaust, tune, downpipe and intercooler and net 300+whp while keeping the 30+ MPG I regularly average. PLEASE PLEASE show me 300whp bolt on N52's with no forced induction where drivers indicate averaging 30+mpg.
5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad. When was the last time you pre-rev'ed your engine at 4000rpm to launch on the street?....* there you go *.
If you bought that N20 to have more boost, well that is utterly ridiculous since the 335i will give you all of that and more. Once you have considered the same level of equipment including moonroof and xenon, a 335i M-Sport is only 3700$ over a 328i M-Sport. Too good to pass.
N52 is over, but competition with NA engines gets 300HP and >30mpg highway. Nobody in a gas 3-series gets 30+ mpg average without being always on highways, don't be a fool.
December 25, 2012, 9:39 pm
5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad. When was the last time you pre-rev'ed your engine at 4000rpm to launch on the street?....* there you go *.
If you bought that N20 to have more boost, well that is utterly ridiculous since the 335i will give you all of that and more. Once you have considered the same level of equipment including moonroof and xenon, a 335i M-Sport is only 3700$ over a 328i M-Sport. Too good to pass.
N52 is over, but competition with NA engines gets 300HP and >30mpg highway. Nobody in a gas 3-series gets 30+ mpg average without being always on highways, don't be a fool.
How is it ridiculous for me to make more boost with my N20? I got my car for a STEAL due to the missing Bluetooth, almost making my car a one of one. A $380 BMS tune makes figures that meet or exceed the 335. I have modded every car I have ever owned, it's what I do. If an 335 had the same missing Bluetooth and was offered to me at the same price as my N20, yeah-I would be a bit silly to chose the N20.
0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile are irrelevant, all classic indicators of performance and a cars capabilities, all things which show DISTINCT advantages to the N20, but you want us to hear you go over and over that the test of 5-65 showed an advantage for the N52? Do you not see how silly that sounds?
I have owned tons of cars, modified tons of cars, ****-DESIGNED CARS, raced cars, there are facts that you kind of like to skip over to skew whatever your agenda at the moment is, whether it's Camry and Accord V-6 is best, E90 is best, N20 is the worst. Simple things like TRAP speeds are the simplest indicator of a cars performance in a roll on type highway pull. It takes skill and traction out of the launch. The N20 traps at 99-100mph, miles faster than the N52. But wait, lets discount that and any figure you don't like and get hung up on Car and Driver which seems to be the only source who even measures 5-65, a test that does not favor the car with more torque that can struggle for traction.
Your 4000lb pig E93 which someone would not want to flog, that cars magazine tested MPG, that should be counted with clarity as the same as another test years later with how a manual F30 sedan is driven?
I am the fool. Yeah. Sure.
We have a multi-page thread where OWNERS post MPGs averaged. I have no problem averaging 30mpg with traffic, lights, highway mix about 60/40, my speed average below 40.
But keep telling me, and other owners of our cars that we are wrong. I am the one in fantasy land...sure. Except I am the one who has first hand experience in things before I open my mouth, you seem to do a lot of talking(in this section) without much of anything substantial to back it up. You remind me of arguments we had as teenagers of Camaro vs Mustang before having licenses, working on our own cars and having the balls to actually race/head to the strip.
December 26, 2012, 10:59 am
December 26, 2012, 11:40 am
The N20, it does not have a bad exhaust note...it has none!
I am counting the days till I have the production catback on my car as the prototype added so much to the driving experience of the N20. It is like having silent sex, sure good things are happening, but without the reassuring soundtrack to back it up-it's just odd.
December 26, 2012, 12:35 pm
Tell me that you were joking. Otherwise, that is just plain retard.
Again, why don't you answer the question. When was the last time that you pre-rev'ed your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best 0-60mph 0-100mph 0-... you name it?
This is why The 5-60mph is definitely the best figure since it can't be cheated. This is also where the N20 low-torque thing should tremendously and failed to do so. It is common among all FI small displacement engines. By the time that lag is over, there are already at 3000+rpm and didn't deliver the theorical trust at low RPM. What you see on charts are relatively static measurements, varying engine speed slowly. It makes all the difference in the world.
December 26, 2012, 12:53 pm
Tell me that you were joking. Otherwise, that is just plain retard.
Again, why don't you answer the question. When was the last time that you pre-rev'ed your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best 0-60mph 0-100mph 0-... you name it?
This is why The 5-60mph is definitely the best figure since it can't be cheated. This is also where the N20 low-torque thing should tremendously and failed to do so. It is common among all FI small displacement engines. By the time that lag is over, there are already at 3000+rpm and didn't deliver the theorical trust at low RPM. What you see on charts are relatively static measurements, varying engine speed slowly. It makes all the difference in the world.
With the above "explanation" that you provided, yes it is a done deal. 26mpg for 55% city as reported by EPA is not bad, but cars like V6 271HP Accord and V6 268HP Camry gets 25mpg and since they run on regular, costs less to operate with more power.
You are expressing again that you don't know what you are talking about. Fantasy land, here you go.
I will admit that I like 5-65 in quite a few instances, like AWD cars like the WRX. They got amazing 0-60 times in magazines, but again with 5-6k clutch dumps. I would race these cars on the street where owners would do soft launches and I would kill them.
But you want to discount 0-60 and 0-100, calling it abusive. Fine, your example is so great, 5-65. But you want to ignore the fact that it is still traction dependent the higher you go in power level?
So how come you have yet to answer ME on the 30-50 and 50-70 passing figures?
Those tests show an engines flexibility, show how important torque is. Those tests have no driveline abuse. Those tests are super relevant in every day driving. Those tests in links you provided, ones which show 1-2 tenth favor your N52, show 1-2 second improvements for the N20.
To answer your question...I soft launch on the street. I am nice to clutches and get 100k out of them or more. So when I do get frisky on the street I rarely do a real hard launch as I have high torque cars...the S52 needs about 1000-1500rpm launch to roast the tires just enough to get me where I need to be once they hook. The N20, so far I have not launched over 2500rpms.
You are simply trying too hard. You want to fight the fight of F30 vs E90, of N52 vs N20, but then you want to muddy the waters with this Camry and Accord V-6 crap. Go buy your automatic V-6 mid size sedan. Please. Go post on their forums about how great that car is and how you saved money versus buying a new 3 series. You just seem so desperate to tell OWNERS they bought the wrong car. It just sounds ridiculous.
I am delusional still with MY and others real world MPG's with the F30? I don't know what I am talking about? Says who-you? You are the most biased person, seemingly lacking real world experience, sounding like a teenager with a riced out slow car-that is how you come across in this section. If I am the one in fantasyland, and you are in some better realm, I would stay put and not want to visit where ever you are.
Here are shots of my screen(I did calculations and found my car was computing within about 2% of actual math).
This is 60% Highway, kept in Sport, plenty of WOT burts:
This is 70% highway, Comfort, no WOT, fair bit of 40mph backroads but few traffic lights:
I am glad I have a camera in fantasyland!
Guy above me with X-drive says he is averaging 34 in COMFORT. He must be in fantasyland too!
December 26, 2012, 1:23 pm
Guy above me with X-drive says he is averaging 34 in COMFORT. He must be in fantasyland too!
December 26, 2012, 1:28 pm
A little note, magazine testing MPG.
Not much value to it, sorry.
It's not their car. They admit to driving it like they stole it. I have yet to confirm if they pay for the gas they put in or if that is paid for/reimbursed.
I do not hypermile, I do not drive like a Grandpa. But on my commute to work which is 18 miles, stop and go traffic for 10% of it, about 10 traffic lights, and then 10-12 miles of 80mph on the highway, I hit 39-40mpg everyday by the time I pull into work. That is relate-able to people, that described a lot of people's commutes.
Most times I have it in Sport and still always manage 30+.
This is not fantasy. This is called driving in the real world. Working for a magazine and grabbing keys to a different car day after day, driving it like a rental car and getting paid to do it...THAT is a fantasy!
December 26, 2012, 4:06 pm
30+ mpg "average" is clearly fantasy land from people who don't what they are talking about. Wrong methodology and just lack of skills. I can report 6.8L/100km in my car on one ride on highway, but that's doesn't mean overall average by any stretch.
fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.
However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.
Say hello to your imaginary friends.
December 26, 2012, 4:30 pm
fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.
However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.
Say hello to your imaginary friends.
Again, I do not care about C&D and the 21mpg, you ignored all that I stated about people being paid to thrash on cars they do not own. 21mpg vs 26.3 from your Fuelly example, that is over a 20% discrepancy.
There are plenty of people who have switched from e90 to f30 328's, they report living with better mileage. So what, all these people are making it up?
Back to your site, lets see what happens as you get away from the N20, look at how the numbers drop when we get to the E90's.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/328i
There you go, lets keep on muddying up your argument, lets talk about the RDX, let's bring more lame side steps to the discussion. The 1st gen RDX was known to be a gas guzzler, same thing with Mazdas CX-7. EPA numbers and driver numbers all show this. It's not so much weight that makes it an issue, you are implying the F30 has some kind of weight penalty which it does not, not compared to the E90 and not it's competition.
If BMW skipped the N20 and instead put in a 3.0L direct injected 270hp NA 6 that got 34 on the highway, I still would have happily bought it. The only downside is the lack of upgrades for more power. I ditched my APR stage 2 CC for this car, one of the reasons was knowing the FI would be tuner friendly.
If I Paypal you $1, would you stop bringing up other random cars?
Compare the N20 F30 to the IS, C-Class, A4, ATS, G37, Volvo S60, you know the cars in it's class it's intended to keep up with? Show me how those cars romp the N20 in meaningful ways. I will listen, I promise.
Otherwise hearing you talk about lower fuel costs due to no premium required and Camrys and Accords makes me want to cry.
December 26, 2012, 4:35 pm
December 26, 2012, 4:45 pm
You tried citing examples and state that the N20 is not more fuel efficient in the real world because some magazine posted 21mpg in an f30 and 23 in an E93.
Do I need to dig up your own quotes?
So now you are going to bring up a lame argument, state the same thing more than once, get disproved, and then complain that the thing now disproved is common knowledge to everyone including you who kept saying the opposite?
You are becoming my second favorite poster after BJ. I take back calling you a troll ever. Trolls are rarely ever entertaining.
December 26, 2012, 5:02 pm
4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.
This is not BMW.
This is the direction of the automobile.
Get used to it or just drive a decades old car for the rest of your life.
V-8 trucks...America!
-V-6's are now being embraced. First with Fords Ecoboost, now with the Ram and PentaStar. People pay attention to MPG figures now, even with bigger/heavier vehicles. CAFE standards are not letting up anytime soon. You also see the Ecoboost 2.0 in the Ford Edge, Taurus(Explorer too I think), 4000lb vehicles.
Midsize sedans, V-6=premium!
-I think it started with Hyundai. They ditched the V6 being offered which allowed platform design to be 4 cylinder specific which saved weight. The V6 take rate is always small on these cars, maybe 10-15%, willing to bet the 2.0T is 100% as strong if not stronger. More and more cars followed suit, the Malibu is now 4cyl+turbo only, the Fusion also.
Entry level Luxury, nothing luxurious about a 4 cylinder!
-Might have started with Audi and the B8 A4. It started with the 2.0T and the 3.2 3.2 was canned due to sales. Infiniti brought in a base engine, a lower output V6 and it barely lasted a year. The C class, when the redesign came, brought a 201hp SUB 2.0L 4. Sales seem to be pretty solid considering it's an old platform. The ATS brought with it an 2.0L 4 as well(lets ignore the 2.5L as it's fail city).
So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....
IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.
So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading.
So you can lament all you want. Fact is, this is where the industry is now and is going in the future. Even Jaguar now has the 2.0L 4 in the XF, and V8's replaced in the XJ with a 6. Even the A8 has downsized to a 6 for the base engine(just as the 7series did).
So who is in fantasyland now? This is the real world. Where car companies who want to make money and keep up with CAFE downsize their engines.
December 26, 2012, 5:12 pm
I agree they could have easily kept the N/A I6 and still achieved the mpg. The last 3.0 N/A I6s in the 2012 528s with 8spd, the EPA highway mpg was 32 I recall. That was for a much heavier car.
I think the decision to go 2.0L is for the global market, in Europe 2.0L is pretty much the displacement to have before fees to go up.
Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50
December 26, 2012, 5:17 pm
I think the decision to go 2.0L is for the global market, in Europe 2.0L is pretty much the displacement to have before fees to go up.
Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50+
If they make a certain number of a certain engine, it's economies of scale to put it in as many cars as they can.
BMW would not do this if it put them at a competitive disadvantage or seemed to buck a trend.
But fact is, this is what the competition has been doing for years, downsizing-which includes 4 cylinders. Fact is, out of the lot of entry level luxury cars, the N20 is about as good as it gets. Audi had years of nothing but praise for the 2.0TSI(the FSI before that) and wound up on Wards engines of the year list countless times. Now the N20 is just as good and better and what do you know, winds up on the same list.
Be thankful of my age, it helps bring the average down.
December 26, 2012, 7:22 pm
Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50
The rest of them don't even own F30's yet think they are experts because they have old E90's.
BJ
December 26, 2012, 8:50 pm
EPA ratings may not show the advantage but it seems like real world owners' results do.
December 26, 2012, 8:57 pm
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s.
December 26, 2012, 9:01 pm
If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.
E90 328i manual
F30 328i manual
The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...
December 26, 2012, 9:04 pm
The reason why small turbo engines are far more efficient is because when there is no turbo boost, such as when cruising on the highway, you get the gas mileage of a small engine. A 2.0T with the turbo not boosting has significantly less compression resistance than a 3.0L. It is as simple as that.
December 26, 2012, 9:05 pm
0-60 and 1/4 mile are abusive and should not be counted. Only Car and Drivers test of 5-65 matters.
No, somewhere on the rpms the N52 is making more power than the laggy low torque N20. Its on the tachometer when the car is parked with the ignition off.
December 26, 2012, 9:06 pm
December 26, 2012, 9:07 pm
The reason why small turbo engines are far more efficient is because when there is no turbo boost, such as when cruising on the highway, you get the gas mileage of a small engine. A 2.0T with the turbo not boosting has significantly less compression resistance than a 3.0L. It is as simple as that.
December 26, 2012, 9:08 pm
N20 feels more powerful at low RPM than N52, N52 feels the best at high RPM or WOT.
You know one, then you know the other.
December 26, 2012, 9:11 pm
December 26, 2012, 9:21 pm
The A4 was more than capable of standing up to the I6 in the 328i E90, even though most folks here who are now singing in praise of the BMW 2.0T probably used to piss on the "4-banger" A4 just a couple of years ago
December 26, 2012, 9:22 pm
5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad.
December 26, 2012, 9:36 pm
FYI: the luxury line F30 they tested made it to an excellent 54.5mph. Clearly, while it may be soft, it is no slouch, and I am sure it would post an even more impressive number with the sport suspension or the dynamic handling package.
December 27, 2012, 2:05 am
I've not owned an E90, but recently traded in my E46 330ci for a F30 335 MSport sedan. While I love my new F30, I feel that I lost a bit of the road feel of my E46. As someone else stated in an earlier reply,the F30 feels like a completely different car. Much bigger and refined, but a little less of that ultimate driving road feel was lost. Overall not a big thing, but I would suggest a serious test drive before you make a decision. Just my 2 cents.
December 27, 2012, 4:16 pm
December 27, 2012, 4:20 pm
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
December 27, 2012, 4:32 pm
You tried citing examples and state that the N20 is not more fuel efficient in the real world because some magazine posted 21mpg in an f30 and 23 in an E93.
Do I need to dig up your own quotes?
Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.
I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.
It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.
And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.
December 27, 2012, 6:33 pm
I think if you drive all the time like you want to register a record mpg out of the car, you will be more successful with the N20 than with the N52.
But if you drive for maximum fun all the time, the two will be very close, except of course if trying to break your mpg record is your definition of driving fun.
December 27, 2012, 6:56 pm
Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.
I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.
It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.
And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.
You hate the new direction of BMW. You hate the F30. You're smart. We're stupid. We get it. Enjoy your other cars. Find another forum to troll.
BJ
December 27, 2012, 7:04 pm
You hate the new direction of BMW. You hate the F30. You're smart. We're stupid. We get it. Enjoy your other cars. Find another forum to troll.
BJ
Will for the 3e90 for one next year bm should fix all the bugs
December 27, 2012, 7:38 pm
OK, I actually took the time to look up some numbers for 5-60mph. From C&D:
F30: Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.8 sec
2010 Wagon: Street start, 5–60 mph: 7.3 sec
Granted, the wagon is a little heavier than the sedan, but not that much heavier. Maybe you have other numbers you can quote. But at least C&D's completely contradict your claim.
December 27, 2012, 7:41 pm
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
Is that your instrumented test?
December 27, 2012, 8:03 pm
Will for the 3e90 for one next year bm should fix all the bugs
There are a few non-F30 owners who think its entertaining to troll our forum and tell us how stupid we are for sticking with BMW as they make their beloved 3 Series a bit bigger, a bit softer, and a bit more luxurious. They act like they're talking to a bunch of gullible people who didn't understand what they were getting into, like we were duped or something.
We get it. We're not stupid. We love our F30's. Others can hate it all they want. They should just take that hate over to the E9X forum where it's useful.
BJ
December 27, 2012, 8:11 pm
Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.
- 328i: EPA city/highway driving: 23/33 mpg
- 528i: EPA city/highway driving: 22/32 mpg
Wonderful until you notice the catch:- 328i: C/D observed: 27 mpg
- 528i: C/D observed: 19 mpg
Ooops!!!!!Then one wonders, was C&D's "observation" a fluke? So I checked out CR for its overall mileage:
- 328i: 28 mpg
- 530i: 20 mpg
Granted, the 530i was the 2004 model (still an N52, right?) with only a 6-speed auto. But this case is closed shut.December 27, 2012, 8:39 pm
Of course. But that is completely irrelevant for normal driving. Heck, you could even tune a 2.0T (BMW or not) to drink much more fuel than a 3.0 I-6, mostly because you can make it generate much more power
.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=63
December 27, 2012, 8:40 pm
OK, I actually took the time to look up some numbers for 5-60mph. From C&D:
F30: Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.8 sec
2010 Wagon: Street start, 5–60 mph: 7.3 sec
Granted, the wagon is a little heavier than the sedan, but not that much heavier. Maybe you have other numbers you can quote. But at least C&D's completely contradict your claim.
C&D tested a 2009 328i manual at 5.9s 0-60.
For daily driving it should be easier to drive N20 faster from stoplight to stoplight. That is not to say one can not drive the N52 fast, just need more skill.
December 27, 2012, 8:53 pm
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=63
And why stop at 5-60mph? Let's also look at 30-50 and 50-70 in your links. Both are won by the F30 fairly decisively.
December 27, 2012, 10:18 pm
If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.
E90 328i manual
F30 328i manual
The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...
Anyway, say thanks to the shorter ratio ZF 8-speed for your feeling as initial acceleration, because overall hard facts states that the F30 328i is not significantly quicker than the E90 328i. Same ball park at best.
Here in this F30 328i automatic comparo over 300 miles, C&D observed only 21mpg, again much worse than what they observed in any I6 E9X (except the obese convertible). When you push those little forced-induction engines, you get worse fuel economy than expected. It is absolutely hilarious that the N20 Step certified EPA figures are no better than the N55.
And factor in the engine note that was lost in the transition, the N20 is a blow against 3-series virtues. Old M54 and early 2006 N52 were feeling so much better.
fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.
However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.
Say hello to your imaginary friends.
Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.
I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.
It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.
And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.
I quoted for you!
All you do is yap yap yap. You whip out figures and numbers that try and support whatever it is you want to cling to at that moment. When the other side has evidence to support something YOU do not agree with, you crap on why that evidence is no good.
You: N20 is not better than N52, look at the 5-60 times!
Me: Look at 0-60, 0-100 or 1/4
You: No, no, not fair, those are abusive tests and no one would do that on the street!
Me:OK, what about the second plus advantage of 30-50 and 50-70 top gear acceleration with the N20, those are real world tests that would not be abusive at all?
You: Crickets chirping
You: Some magazine had the N20 average 21 compared to another test with the N52 at 23.
Me: I as well as others have gotten as high as 30+
You: You made that up
Me: Pictures
You: Blah blah blah
Me: Magazine writers are paid to borrow cars, rag on them, not really the best source compared to owners, many of whom can compare to their previous E90s.
You.: Fantasy, all of yas. Fuelly.com has the '12-'13's at 26.3mpg
Me: Well, that's more long term than my tank average. 26.3mpg is 20+% greater than your first example of 21 with the magazine guys.
You: Crickets chirping
You seem to be doing a lot of talking, a lot of name calling, and I kind of let you have more and more things your way by lending some credibility to your sources and examples(Fuelly.com, 5-60 tests etc), but when there is a real logical argument you cannot side step in return you ignore it, you name call and come across as a far larger D-bag than I.
December 27, 2012, 10:21 pm
And why stop at 5-60mph? Let's also look at 30-50 and 50-70 in your links. Both are won by the F30 fairly decisively.
All he wants to talk about is 5-60, one test which the N20 is down 2 tenths in his examples. I have real world experience, being an idiot on the street and having tons of passes at the strip, higher tq cars suffer more from traction and the N20 has a lot more issues planting power mashing the pedal at 5mph than the N52. Does one also consider the tires? What if the 6.4 seconds in the N52 had the 255's out back and pretty much all tests of the N20 have 225's? Ever think of that Saintor?
December 27, 2012, 10:57 pm
There are a few non-F30 owners who think its entertaining to troll our forum and tell us how stupid we are for sticking with BMW as they make their beloved 3 Series a bit bigger, a bit softer, and a bit more luxurious. They act like they're talking to a bunch of gullible people who didn't understand what they were getting into, like we were duped or something.
We get it. We're not stupid. We love our F30's. Others can hate it all they want. They should just take that hate over to the E9X forum where it's useful.
BJ
In other news, I just ordered BMW Performance Black Kidney Grilles(Gloss) for my car, with a black M License plate to match!
December 27, 2012, 11:15 pm
December 28, 2012, 12:47 am
In other news, I just ordered BMW Performance Black Kidney Grilles(Gloss) for my car, with a black M License plate to match!
Nice to see that you finally got the car of your dreams.
BJ
December 28, 2012, 1:21 am
wow, i came in to comment on the original question. and its a full on flamefest
i'm coming from two E90 335i sedans, one 6MT RWD and the other 6AT AWD. I've test driven an N20 AWD 8AT and currently drive an N55 RWD 6MT
thoughts:
the suspension on both the 328 X drive (standard) and my car, DHP 335i is more composed and softer (on my car, in comfort mode) than both my E90s. softer in a good way, both of my old cars were pre suspension change, and had the "pothole explosion" shocks. the suspension on the F30 328i xdrive felt more composed than a 2011 328i XDrive loaner i had for almost two weeks two months ago (sandy stranded my car at the dealer as they had no power). I hated the crashy-bangy suspension on my 2010 along with the floaty, rolling feeling the non sport suspension gave. very happy with the F30 suspension in both comfort and sport mode.
steering on the F30 in non sport mode is lighter and a little weird feeling-- i was test driving an E90 two days ago for my brother, and for a moment thought the power steering on the car was broken-- i had gotten used to the power steering on my F30 which i had been driving in comfort mode as NYC pothole season has started in earnest. in sport mode it tightens up alot and feels very good, almost as good as the steering in my old E46 ( late 2001 build car with heavier steering rack).
engine - the N20 has alot more punch than the N52. it did feel a little less smooth. i went with the N55 as it seemed better suited to a 6MT. The N55 does not feel as powerful as my outgoing N54, but that car had the performance power kit and performance exhaust. the N55 does have a nice exhaust burble on decel. smooth power delivery.
interior- at first glance, the F30 interior looks a little cheaper, only because the dash material is a little shinier. from a tactile perspective, it feels better put together, more refined. BMW spent more time on the details of the interior. the center stack has a better layout, and the switch gear has a more solid feel. two examples i can think of are the iDrive controller and the cruise control buttons.
even the cupholders look like they were designed in (vs tacked on in the e9x)
December 28, 2012, 9:59 am
All he wants to talk about is 5-60, one test which the N20 is down 2 tenths in his examples. I have real world experience, being an idiot on the street and having tons of passes at the strip, higher tq cars suffer more from traction and the N20 has a lot more issues planting power mashing the pedal at 5mph than the N52. Does one also consider the tires? What if the 6.4 seconds in the N52 had the 255's out back and pretty much all tests of the N20 have 225's? Ever think of that Saintor?
255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.
5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.
The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).
Top gear 30-50 50-70
F30 328i manual 9.5 7.7
F30 328i automatic 3.5 3.9
So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.
December 28, 2012, 10:26 am
255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.
5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.
The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).
Top gear 30-50 50-70
F30 328i manual 9.5 7.7
F30 328i automatic 3.5 3.9
So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.
What does it do that the competition with old technology can't do?
December 28, 2012, 11:08 am
255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.
5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.
The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).
Top gear 30-50 50-70
F30 328i manual 9.5 7.7
F30 328i automatic 3.5 3.9
So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.
What does it do that the competition with old technology can't do?
I agree, the 5-60 is in the N52's favor as it does not have to worry as much about traction and I bet it is further aided by 255's in your test while all F30 tests seem to have 225's. So the car more in need of traction is crippled by having less grip. And you so desperately want to hold on to this two tenths advantage. You said, 255's do not break traction in these cars, N52's...EXACTLY. N20's do. I have the summer S001's, 255's, and not only do I get plenty of wheelspin in 1st, I also get a solid spin on the 1-2 shift and can chirp the 2-3 shift. That's called torque.
I am glad you are actually replying finally in regards to the 30-50 and 50-70 numbers. But again, since you want to try and discount them.
No one brought up automatics which skew top gear acceleration dramatically.
I used the numbers from YOUR examples which are both 6spd manuals. In those tests the N20 has a second or more advantage, in fact the N20 meets or beats the Infiniti G37 from your N52 test which was the fastest car.
I have been saying this with specific counters for pages now. I doubt it's going to get though to him.
December 28, 2012, 11:12 am
Seems a mute argument as the old engine is no longer available in the new car. A page in the chapter has turned. The new engine gets great ratings - progress.
December 28, 2012, 2:00 pm
I'm not in to all the stats, but after almost a year and 13k miles with my 328i I can honestly say the engine is the best part of the car, and my last car had one of the smoothest non-DI sixes around. Also, had E90 328 loaners on 2-3 occasions and they feel much, much slower than the N20.
December 28, 2012, 2:42 pm
The N52 was a gem, no substitute in this segment for a long time, BMW could have easily kept it, made it more powerful and more efficient with the 8spd. The high power version made 270 hp.
Unfortunately it did not happen. So if you are an N/A person, and refuse to go below 6, there are other brands available, and I am not talking about C350, ATS 3.6 or G37, but more higher end brands.
Sometimes you have to pay to play.
December 28, 2012, 3:34 pm
Unfortunately it did not happen. So if you are an N/A person, and refuse to go below 6, there are other brands available, and I am not talking about C350, ATS 3.6 or G37, but more higher end brands.
Sometimes you have to pay to play.
Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.
December 28, 2012, 10:02 pm
Nice to see that you finally got the car of your dreams.
BJ
December 28, 2012, 10:09 pm
The new engine is a rocket. It's unfathomable to some who believe in the naturally aspirated myth; ironically, it's BMW who made up the myth and it's BMW that smashed it. Some are just late to the party.
BJ
December 29, 2012, 3:47 am
BMW also made up the Rwd myth and will smash it after 2015
December 29, 2012, 5:18 am
The new engine is a rocket. It's unfathomable to some who believe in the naturally aspirated myth; ironically, it's BMW who made up the myth and it's BMW that smashed it. Some are just late to the party.
December 29, 2012, 5:22 am
Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.
December 29, 2012, 9:28 am
Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.
I have a 2.5L and there is no point over a 3.0L. In Europe, BMW finally dismissed their 2.5L in the 2008+(?) Euro 325i E90 and it was updated with a 3.0L.
Their direct injected N53 NA 3.0L had a already 272HP and the fuel economy of an Audi 2.0T. BMW would have needed a different DI system compatible with North American gas, like their competition does. I would avoid force induction - not needed anyway. A Mercedes exec. declared that their 1.8T was more expensive to build than their NA V6 - I believe him.
What was lost in the process of going with the N20 is engine temper. I don't like the stock N52 so much actually, I preferred the M54 that was the real inspiration with its deep growl, which clearly expressed B-M-W, like a N54/55 335i does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rmoYAfr0t8
December 29, 2012, 9:59 am
How is that making progress?
I basically made a hypothetical wish.
I am the one in fantasyland and you are in the past and want something BMW simply isnt doing.
Maybe you too are here with us in fantasyland and just don't. Know it.
December 29, 2012, 12:42 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rmoYAfr0t8
December 29, 2012, 1:14 pm
December 29, 2012, 1:24 pm
Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.
December 29, 2012, 3:40 pm
December 29, 2012, 5:58 pm
December 29, 2012, 9:49 pm
I tuned it, did the suspension and rebuilt the trans with an LSD. It made 320lbs of tq to the wheels and could do a burn out with both wheels from a second gear roll. I had a spread in European Car magazine with it.
But it was not a sports car. A sedan allowed me to buy a sports car. The e36/7 with the blower really hits all the key points for me.
But I always have a Saab in the stable owning one or more for 15 years. I have a tuned awd'11 9-3 for my wife and a 6mt wagon for my father.
December 30, 2012, 9:30 am
I basically made a hypothetical wish.
I am the one in fantasyland and you are in the past and want something BMW simply isnt doing.
Maybe you too are here with us in fantasyland and just don't. Know it.
No fantasyland is stating that 30mpg combined is typical for a N20, as you did. Which can be also confused with BS.
My version was also an "hypothetical wish", that competitors are doing BTW, so it is not fantasyland.
December 30, 2012, 10:16 am
My version was also an "hypothetical wish", that competitors are doing BTW, so it is not fantasyland.
It is more realistic an experience than YOUR sticking by magazine testing which nets low numbers from people paid to thrash on cars they do not own.
In the middle ground was your Fuelly.com example which is long term consumer posted and showed 20+ % higher than the magazines you were sticking with. It's not exactly perfect as I saw a '13 328 coupe with an L4. Does that mean it was really a sedan, or an E92 owner with a six who picked the wrong thing. It also was a much lower reported average which brought down the overall average for '12-13 cars.
Once again you want your source to be valid/irrefutable and someone else's source to be discounted. It's very annoying.
December 30, 2012, 10:40 am
December 30, 2012, 11:05 am
I own the car, I drive the car, I state factual events...
Am I stating LONG term 30+ tanks. Nope. I have had plenty of 28mpg tanks. The ownership average over my 5k, is likely between 28-29.5mpg. 60-70% of all my driving is highway at 80mph in Sport.
But my experience has a hell of a lot more validity than yours in which you have none and just state everyone else's first hand experience on the forums is wrong.
December 30, 2012, 1:49 pm
Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?
December 30, 2012, 2:02 pm
The M-Sport model, I think looks the best. Even if it does sorta water down the M Badge.
December 30, 2012, 2:15 pm
BJ
December 30, 2012, 4:44 pm
The M-Sport does not have any exterior M badges(aside from the wheels which are happily gone from my car).
My friend's '99 E36 328is almost indistinguishable from a same year M3.
You could even get an M appearance package on the 318ti.
I find much more offense to M badges being put on by people.
December 30, 2012, 5:29 pm
BJ
December 31, 2012, 10:03 am
I own the car, I drive the car, I state factual events...
Am I stating LONG term 30+ tanks. Nope. I have had plenty of 28mpg tanks. The ownership average over my 5k, is likely between 28-29.5mpg. 60-70% of all my driving is highway at 80mph in Sport.
With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).
December 31, 2012, 11:08 am
With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).
Don't believe it one minute. Gadget lovers enjoy bragging on selective features, even if they don't benefit really from them.
Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.
Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.
December 31, 2012, 11:32 am
Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.
Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.
The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.
December 31, 2012, 11:45 am
The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.
It IS exhausting.
But entertaining.
Your points are really silly to me.
Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.
But they DID NOT, they made the N20. So you can stay in your corner and talk to yourself about what could have been, or see the light and join reality and move on with your life. You keep bringing up cost to run...god, go buy a non luxury car if you are so concerned about not running premium. BMWs have been running premium for a long time, 4 cylinder or not, forced induction or not. Once again, if one of your talking points is disputed from E90 vs F30, you bring it back to something like operating costs of Japanese V-6s.
I am going to summarize all this stupidity.
The N20 gets 20% or better MPG than the N52 in both fuelly.com and owners real world experience
The N20 is quite a bit faster than the N52 in meaningful ways such as 0-60,0-100, 30-50 and 50-70. In rolling start 5-60, the N52 seems to have a 2 tenth advantage.
The N20 has no exhaust note and does not have much of an induction sound compared to the N52.
BMW could have done a variety of things instead of the N20 but DIDN'T.
The N20 COULD be compared to a variety of cars outside it's class including Camrys and Accord V-6s that can run on regular. If you want one, go buy on.
Nice and tidy.
So there you go.
Don't buy an F30. Don't buy an N55 one and think you are superior. All your talk about Accords and Camrys, go buy an automatic or CVT Japanese appliance car for $30k+ and remind yourself how much better off you are each time you save $1.00 a fill up by putting in 89. Please blow up their message boards while your at it.
December 31, 2012, 1:14 pm
Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.
But they DID NOT, they made the N20.
Comparing the F30 328i exclusively to an E90 328i is another mistake.
Yes, the Asians teach a lesson in efficiency/technology to the Germans, whatever your condescending tone against them. No I won't buy one, thank you. I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.
In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.
But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .
December 31, 2012, 1:20 pm
On the positive side, at least BMW offers a 335i with a great 6 cylinder engine that gets similar fuel economy at around $3000 more for an equivalent set of options. The Audi world I came from required you to shell out almost $10k to go from the A4 to S4, trade in the ZF 8HP for a shuffle-happy DCT on hills, and also lose a few mpg city and highway in the process.
December 31, 2012, 1:31 pm
LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE. You are just highlighting how much of your dribble is off topic and reaching.
I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.
Great, I hope you start stalking Fuelly.com for the stastics. Money says that the C300 will not match the N20 in efficiency and the performance of the C350 barely matches the N20, the C300 will not match the N20. Oh yeah, the C300 I bet requires the same grade of fuel as the N20.
0-.... are irrelevant, as the top gear accelerations. Again was the last time you prerev your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? Oh wait, you answered to that. The answer was *Never*. Just numbers for kids to brag about.
In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.
Again, only YOU are saying those figures are irrelevant, you are talking to yourself. According to you in real life, mash the throttle from idle and an N52 will pass you? How so? 5-60, there is an advantage according to you(one which can be disproved just by tires being the same size) of .2, but the N20 picks up so much steam so quickly, the N20 would pull past the N52 after that BRIEF initial lead. I also track my cars, auto-x, track days, and drag strips, I also modify them. I have so much more leverage to talk about what I know then you who seems to bench race/magazine race ad-nausiem.
But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .
December 31, 2012, 4:12 pm
Oh my god. He writes all in bold now. He *mad*.
December 31, 2012, 4:40 pm
No you didn't. If you thought you did, then you failed. Your BS is not good enough to counter the facts. There are plenty of good reasons to own a F30. Unfortunately, a N20 is not one of them. Would be at home in a Jetta. For the rest, the F30 is just fine.... as a 335i.
My BS is not good enough to counter the facts, again-who says? You have no authority to say so
I will copy and paste it again, the base car engines in the entry level lux segment:
"So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....
IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.
(I left out Acura-nothing anymore competitive than what is already listed BTW)
So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading."
Please, show me how I FAILED at comparing base engines in the entry-level luxury class. I dare you.
December 31, 2012, 9:17 pm
I think its been mentioned here but my first two impressions between my ownership of an E90 335i and now an F30 335i - and granted, I haven't had the E90 in a while, so this is just my poor memory, but what strikes me. I'm curious who agrees or not...
1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember having with my E90. The materials aren't even as nice (I don't think) when individually assessed - but when taken overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. When I sat in the E90 I don't remember it feeling quite as form-fitted as my F30 feels. Does anyone agree?
2) transmission. The 8AT is tight. Also, the steering, while disconnected, is precise. Going further than the AT, the two seem to combine to give me a very aim-and-shoot kind of feeling that I'm loving. It is a bit electronic and removed but also rewarding in its own right. Kind of best-of-class for fly-by-wire. Thoughts?
December 31, 2012, 9:23 pm
Call me nuts but I actually like the feel of the F30 steering compared to the E90. The 2011 328i I've driven was a bit too sports car like for my taste as a daily driver. Parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.
The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.
December 31, 2012, 10:01 pm
1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember with the E90. The materials aren't even as nice I don't think when individually assessed but overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. I sat in the other car and it wasn't all quite as form fitted as this feels. Does anyone agree?
December 31, 2012, 11:32 pm
Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.
Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.
December 31, 2012, 11:33 pm
The 2011 328i I've driven....parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. What others call "road feel", I call "unrefined and uncomfortable".
The F30 solves all this.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 12:20 am
The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.
Too bad too many people want the 3 series to be just a daily driver. BMW used to brag about the steering feel of the 3ers, no longer.
As for the smooth revving N/A I6, it is very clear it could get the same mpg as the 2.0T, and the same power, while retaining its unique 3er identity, but it seemed jumping on the 2.0T bandwagon is a fashionable thing to do these days.
Granted BMW has the engineering resources to make the 2.0T stand out among other 2.0Ts. But they could have the N/A I6 stand out on it's own by further refining it also.
Unlike Sainter though, I understand it was a business decision, it is what it is. When there is not another good I6 alternative out there in this segment, there is not much for BMW to lose by going 2.0T. What we suppose to do, get a Volvo?
January 1, 2013, 12:26 am
Road feel does not necessarily imply harshness and comfort and refinement do not necessarily imply isolation and numbness.
It is possible to have a refined, comfortable car with very good road feel.
CA
January 1, 2013, 12:28 am
CA
And, again, we're talking fractions here compared to the E90. E46 different story, night and day. But compared to the E90, the F30 is what, 2% less responsive, blindfolded you wouldn't be able to tell one car from the other on the highway or on local streets. It's much ado about nothing by people looking to nitpick. Always something to whine about, these enthusiasts.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 12:29 am
BJ
I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.
The pothole explosions issue on the E9x sport suspension also has nothing to do with road feel. It was simply a poorly sorted out suspension. I was able to solve the issue with no loss of road feel.
I would have been very surprised if BMW had not solved the pothole explosion issue on the F30. They may not have ever officially admitted that they had a problem on the E9x but I know as a fact that they were very aware of the issue.
CA
January 1, 2013, 12:33 am
I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.
CA
BJ
January 1, 2013, 12:43 am
BJ
I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.
The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.
CA
January 1, 2013, 5:44 am
I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.
The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.
CA
January 1, 2013, 6:41 am
I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars
January 1, 2013, 7:06 am
I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars
Regarding jap cars, I liked the weighting of my old 2004 G35 with the OEM summer tires. However, I hated the overboosted feeling of the old Infiniti I35 (badge engineered late 90s/early 2000s Nissan Maxima) when I had that as a loaner once...
January 1, 2013, 7:06 am
I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars
Take a test drive, it's the only way to answer the question.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 9:08 am
January 1, 2013, 9:52 am
First, we are talking about technological choices, why are you hiding behind BS marketing stuff? There are zero technical reason to restrict to entry-lux marketing BS. Unless you are afraid of something, aren't you?
The one that you conveniently left out is the one that hurts the N20 the most. It actually annihilates the whole BS theory behind the N20.
I am talking about the Lexus ES350 that definitely belongs to the entry-level class. Similar width (0.4") and weight. Very old engine and even older transmission.
Lexus ES350 (Camry V6)
V6 3.5L 268HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.7 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 2050$
BMW 328i
4-cyl. turbo 2.0L 240HP
C/D TEST RESULTS
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.5 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.5 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.9 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 2050$
It is absolutely nonsense why BMW went crazy with the N20 and can't even beat a competitor with an old engine (2005), no direct injection and 6-sp. We keep hearing that BMW had no choice going this way. Yeah sure. We have this case but I also referred earlier to the Accord and Altima.
Accord 2013
V6 3.5L 271 HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 5.9 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.1 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 1950$
Altima 2013
V6 3.5 L 270HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.2 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.9 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 1950$
Before your little demagogy kicks in once again, *no* I won't buy one of these.
As all of this clearly shows, there was no compelling reason for BMW to go with the N20. We are getting it for the wrong reasons. Fashion and stupid displacement rules in Europe that bears no relevance here. It is amazing that competitors enjoy great technical results relying on NA V6 (without direct-injection and with basic 6-sp. transmission) while BMW's basic position is 'can't be done'. *Wrong.*
January 1, 2013, 10:10 am
-
January 1, 2013, 10:30 am
First, we are talking about technological choices, why are you hiding behind BS marketing stuff? There are zero technical reason to restrict to entry-lux marketing BS. Unless you are afraid of something, aren't you?
The one that you conveniently left out is the one that hurts the N20 the most. It actually annihilates the whole BS theory behind the N20.
I am talking about the Lexus ES350 that definitely belongs to the entry-level class. Similar width (0.4") and weight. Very old engine and even older transmission.
Lexus ES350 (Camry V6)
V6 3.5L 268HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.7 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 2050$
BMW 328i
4-cyl. turbo 2.0L 240HP
C/D TEST RESULTS
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.5 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.5 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.9 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 2050$
It is absolutely nonsense why BMW went crazy with the N20 and can't even beat a competitor with an old engine (2005), no direct injection and 6-sp. We keep hearing that BMW had no choice going this way. Yeah sure. We have this case but I also referred earlier to the Accord and Altima.
Accord 2013
V6 3.5L 271 HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 5.9 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.1 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 1950$
Altima 2013
V6 3.5 L 270HP
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.2 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.9 sec
EPA fuel annual cost 1950$
Before your little demagogy kicks in once again, *no* I won't buy one of these.
As all of this clearly shows, there was no compelling reason for BMW to go with the N20. We are getting it for the wrong reasons. Fashion and stupid displacement rules in Europe that bears no relevance here. It is amazing that competitors enjoy great technical results relying on NA V6 (without direct-injection and with basic 6-sp. transmission) while BMW's basic position is 'can't be done'. *Wrong.*
No one cares about Japanese mid size sedans. It's not about buying BS that I only compare entry level luxury, it's the only way to have specific discourse. You can find entry level cars for $20k that do SOME things better. It's meaningless. Entry level luxury has expectations of size, power, efficiency, luxury and tech. This is the class of the base 3. This is the class the base 3 is at the top of. You can get out of this segment and get less weight, maybe throw in FWD and lose handling and gain something else in it's place. But it's not the same recipe anymore. That's not marketing BS or brain washing.
Off the top of my head without scouring the web for minutiae I named all the competitions base engines in the class. Did you dispute my examples? No. You dug up one car that does not even compute. A fwd Camry with a Lexus badge(now an Avalon). Again, you look petty- so desperate to try and counter solid info that didnt require a cruise of the web.
So I will look at your example.
You just went on and on about top gear acceleration being a poor test then try and use it here. When I used it we were comparing 6mt to 6mt. Now you want to compare a 6spd auto to an 8spd auto. But your famed 5-60 figure showed up again. Sigh.
You also skew the information YOU provide because of your biased agenda.
You dont list the 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile and trap speed which all have the N20 BEATING your Lexus Camry. Then you list only the fuel costs, not the EPA and also not fuelly.com. Why, does the ES350 not require premium, another silly thing you are hung up on? You know you CAN run 89 in an N20. People on the forums do, I just don't choose to in order to save a couple of cents.
So you compared the n20 to a platform engineered camry/avalon that no one here would want. But like you already beat into us with the Camry, no one cares.
So I have a bunch of examples that prove my point as you did not argue them. You found one weak one as the counter. So my examples of the IS, A4, S60, ATS, G37, TL/TSX,C250 vs your ES350 counter.
You lose this round again. But people can vote who did better at stating the n20 as class competitive or not. Since you always declare YOURSELF the winner.
January 1, 2013, 12:13 pm
I had an f30 loaner a few months back while my car was in for its free oil change. I got to drive it a little over 100 miles for the day so I had enough time to evaluate the differences. First and foremost the speed difference. Totally awesome compared to my 2011 328. Nuf said as you all know this already! Steering is subjective because you get used to what your daily driver is. My previously car that I still own is a y2k Maxima so when I occasionally drive it I almost oversteer the car until I get used to it because the wheel spins so freely. When I first drove my e90 I actually felt like I couldn't one hand parallel park because the steering was two heavy. My point is anyone coming from an e90 will feel the difference, but forget and actually like the f30 feel better the more they drive one.
Lot of debate about gas mileage and premium gas that makes me smile. These cars are made to driven at higher speeds than legal in America. These cars cost more than other cars in the same class as well. I didn't buy this car worried about getting 28 mph. It's too fun to drive to worry about and ruins the experience if you do. I also only put premium in my car regardless of the price difference between it and mid grade because the BMW recommends it and I would spend more on cigars or booze then I would save using a lower grade of gas! I realize money is tight in this economy, but if we have worry about mpg or premium gas consumption maybe we should be looking elsewhere for a car that gets 40 mpg and is less expensive. Hopefully I will be looking to buy an f30 within the next 6 months for my wife (or thats what I'll tell her) as the f30 looks, drives, and is technically superior to my e90. I may not have the fastest or most fuel efficient car around, but I have a blast driving this car everyday and in the end that's what it's all about.
January 1, 2013, 12:29 pm
As you have pointed out, not only other manufactures proved V6s can achieve the same power and mpg, BMW had actually done it with the N52 528i.
There are however disadvantage of I6. It takes more space at the front. BMW probably wanted to prep people for future FWD conversion, they have to ease people into such changes, so going 2.0T and get people used to 4 bangers, will go a long way of moving to FWD and 3 cylinders platform
Let's face it, RWD is not the most efficient way to build a car, difficult to compete with other FWDs in interior room, comfort and cargo space. BMW knows they are not just competing with C-class, A4 or G37, its future relies on those who want to move up from Camry and Accord, who don't care about driving dynamics as much as mpg, room and comfort.
January 1, 2013, 12:37 pm
As you have pointed out, not only other manufactures proved V6s can achieve the same power and mpg, BMW had actually done it with the N52 528i.
There are however disadvantage of I6. It takes more space at the front. BMW probably wanted to prep people for future FWD conversion, they have to ease people into such changes, so going 2.0T and get people used to 4 bangers, will go a long way of moving to FWD and 3 cylinders platform
Let's face it, RWD is not the most efficient way to build a car, difficult to compete with other FWDs in interior room, comfort and cargo space.
The minute a manual was selected the 33mpg would be lower and again, much less torque than the n20.
Tuners say it themselves, they are welcoming the n20 with open arms in a way they would not for the typical 328 offering of the past.
January 1, 2013, 12:51 pm
The minute a manual was selected the 33mpg would be lower and again, much less torque than the n20.
Tuners say it themselves, they are welcoming the n20 with open arms in a way they would not for the typical 328 offering of the past.
It is all good really, less headache for BMW.
Oh BTW, what did you say about manual? The future BMW drivers are likely not going to know what it is anyway, much like today's Camry and Accord drivers.
January 1, 2013, 1:02 pm
It is all good really, less headache for BMW.
Oh BTW, what did you say about manual? The future BMW drivers are likely not going to know what it is anyway, much like today's Camry and Accord drivers.
They saw what was possible with the FI tuning of the N54 and N55. It is very appealing to people to get gains from plug and play tunes. They saw how to break into the ecu too.
The N20 allows them to apply that experience all over again. BMS had a N20 tune almost a year ago already.
You can't have it both ways. You have purists around here that wax on about the BMW of old. They want the new BMW's to be as much like the old as possible. Well, one of those ways is with a manual transmission. I don't care about cars that are not offered with manuals, they do not even make it onto my radar. You can talk about the future all you want. If BMW does not offer the 3 in a manual, it will not be on my radar. If the ATS is, it will make my short list.
There may be a day when there is no such thing as a new car offered with 3 pedals. That is likely decades away, I will figure it out then.
January 1, 2013, 1:11 pm
Couldn't have said it any better myself. What others call "road feel", I call "unrefined and uncomfortable".
The F30 solves all this.
BJ
I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks)
January 1, 2013, 1:42 pm
I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks)
January 1, 2013, 2:30 pm
January 1, 2013, 2:44 pm
A car with good ride quality absorbs poor road surfaces--potholes, bumps, etc.--without crashing, banging, jouncing and transmitting jolts to occupants' backsides. A car with poor ride quality is uncomfortable to drive for extended periods.
A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.
Good road feel is not just a sporting feature but a safety feature: In foul weather when the limits are lower, better road feel means greater confidence piloting the car on low-traction surfaces. You know sooner when you are headed for trouble and can react accordingly. Counter-intuitively, poor ride quality also hurts you here, because if you're getting knocked about over rough pavement, it's harder to control the car.
Ideally you want to maximize both attributes, which is contradictory--how can a car communicate every nuance of the tires' behavior and isolate you from a rough road? It is difficult but not impossible. Balancing these opposites to provide excellence in both has been a BMW hallmark for decades. It is, perhaps more than any other feature, a defining characteristic of class-leading sport sedans. When BMW screws up that balance, it gets noticed.
The E9X sport suspension botched the ride quality side of the equation (search "pothole explosions" here). Improvements were made toward the end of the production run, without sacrificing road feel. By all accounts (mine included) the F30 has superior ride quality to the E90--but there is mounting opinion that BMW went too far, achieving that at the expense of road feel, and needs to make some tweaks to restore the expected balance.
Edit: It seems the captain and I had the same thoughts at the same time.
January 1, 2013, 2:44 pm
I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks)
There seems to be a belief among some posters here that a performance car has to have a harsh suspension, and a transmission that shifts abruptly. This is not the case as a harsh suspension and abrupt shifts will upset the balance of the car which is not something that should happen in a high performance, or for that mtter ny, cad. In actuality an overly stiff suspension is detremental to handling as it will not be able to keep the tires in contact with the road. This was the case with the E9x sport suspension with RFTs. On poor road surfaces the car would bounce all over the pace. The bouncing around can be reduced by going to a softer suspension but an overly soft suspension can also be detremental to handling. What BMW accomplished with the E9x sport suspension was that they sold a "luxury sport sedan" that had serious defiencies both as a luxury car and as a sport sedan. The E9x sport package does have very good road feel (i.e. steering feedback) and as I was able to accomplish it is possible to improve the ride quality, eliminate the harshness and keep the excellent steering feel. The bottom line is that the E9x was a good starting point. BMW got the suspension geometry and the spring rates right but screwed up on the dampers (shocks) and the RFTs. Both of these were faiely easily rectified although it took me a while to figure out how.
There also seems to be some confusion between steering feel and steering boost. Making the steering heavier does not necessariy increase steering feel and making it lighter does not necessarily reduce it. Before power steering became standard in all cars they did not all have good steering feel. Some did and some did not. As an example neither a 1952 Plymouth or a 1952 Jaguar XK120 had power steering and there was a huge difference in "road feel" between the two cars.
Edit:
Just noticed Zeichen's post which appeared as I was composing this one. He did a very good job of describing the differemce between ride qualiy and there is no reason for me to repeat what he said.
CA
January 1, 2013, 2:58 pm
A car with good ride quality absorbs poor road surfaces--potholes, bumps, etc.--without crashing, banging, jouncing and transmitting jolts to occupants' backsides. A car with poor ride quality is uncomfortable to drive for extended periods.
A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.
Good road feel is not just a sporting feature but a safety feature: In foul weather when the limits are lower, better road feel means greater confidence piloting the car on low-traction surfaces. You know sooner when you are headed for trouble and can react accordingly. Counter-intuitively, poor ride quality also hurts you here, because if you're getting knocked about over rough pavement, it's harder to control the car.
Ideally you want to maximize both attributes, which is contradictory--how can a car communicate every nuance of the tires' behavior and isolate you from a rough road? It is difficult but not impossible. Balancing these opposites to provide excellence in both has been a BMW hallmark for decades. It is, perhaps more than any other feature, a defining characteristic of class-leading sport sedans. When BMW screws up that balance, it gets noticed.
The E9X sport suspension botched the ride quality side of the equation (search "pothole explosions" here). Improvements were made toward the end of the production run, without sacrificing road feel. By all accounts (mine included) the F30 has superior ride quality to the E90--but there is mounting opinion that BMW went too far, achieving that at the expense of road feel, and needs to make some tweaks to restore the expected balance.
The ride/handling balance is a key element in car design/engineering/marketing and sales.
When the balance is wrong, and runs on the side of being too stiff, it turns off a lot of buyers. When it goes the other way and is a bit too soft, it might get written up in the magazines or enthusiast sites, but is less likely to offend the same volume of actual buyers.
This is what BMW has done recently.
The F30 may piss of magazine writers and guys around here, 15-20% enough to not buy the F30. But it skewing the ride/handling balance a more to the other side, it may expand it's buying audience by 20-30% or more. So it means more sales for them. They are a company out to make $$$. So we can lament it all we want but as long as it makes them more money it goes without being heard. But they still offer REAL M cars which remain more driver focused and have the balance shifted back to where enthusiasts want.
January 1, 2013, 3:28 pm
I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars
What tends to happen is that people feel that if they increase (or decrease) a certain parameter in a car and they teel that there i an improvement it will logically follow that if the increase (or decrease) it even more there will be an even bigger improvement. A common example is suspension stiffness. If the stiffer the suspension the better the handling it would logically follow that for maximum hanlding a suspension would not be necessary as the ultimately stiff suspension would be to simply attach the wheels directly to the frame of the car,
With most things you will reach a point of diminshining returns where continuing to do the same thing that resulted in an improvement will no longer result in an improvement and in reality will result in a diminshment in the characreristic you were seeking to improve.
CA
January 1, 2013, 3:40 pm
The ride/handling balance is a key element in car design/engineering/marketing and sales.
When the balance is wrong, and runs on the side of being too stiff, it turns off a lot of buyers. When it goes the other way and is a bit too soft, it might get written up in the magazines or enthusiast sites, but is less likely to offend the same volume of actual buyers.
This is what BMW has done recently.
The F30 may piss of magazine writers and guys around here, 15-20% enough to not buy the F30. But it skewing the ride/handling balance a more to the other side, it may expand it's buying audience by 20-30% or more. So it means more sales for them. They are a company out to make $$$. So we can lament it all we want but as long as it makes them more money it goes without being heard. But they still offer REAL M cars which remain more driver focused and have the balance shifted back to where enthusiasts want.
CA
January 1, 2013, 4:06 pm
CA
I too have no loyalties and will buy whatever car hits what I require in my recipe for a DD or my sports car.
January 1, 2013, 4:42 pm
U
I too have no loyalties and will buy whatever car hits what I require in my recipe for a DD or my sports car.
I am sure the electric steering will improve over the years and it is unlikely that BMW will be going back to hydraulic assist. If after the E 9x sport suspension debacle BMW still had not figured out how to design a suspension that combined good handling, responsiveness and decent ride quality there is really no excuse for that. If the F30 feels like the Mercedes C Class I had in Florida it will not be a car that I am interested in buying. The C 250 was a fine car but it is not a car I am interested in owning. Whether a car appeals to a wide range of buyers or not is of no concern to me if it does not fit my needs or wants.
One thing that I am sure of is that I will never purchase another car that does not have cockpit adjustable suspension settings.
CA
January 1, 2013, 4:56 pm
The F30 is the first BMW to have electric power assist for the steering. I have no first hand experience but from what I have heard from people whose opinions I respect there had been somewhat of a loss in the steering and "fun to drive" areas. There have simultaneously been improvements in other areas such as ride quality, engine power (328) and the automatic transmission. Based on what their priorities are some people will focus on the areas that improved and others will focus on the areas that they feel were better on the previous model. From all indications the overall package is very good.
I am sure the electric steering will improve over the years and it is unlikely that BMW will be going back to hydraulic assist. If after the E 9x sport suspension debacle BMW still had not figured out how to design a suspension that combined good handling, responsiveness and decent ride quality there is really no excuse for that. If the F30 feels like the Mercedes C Class I had in Florida it will not be a car that I am interested in buying. The C 250 was a fine car but it is not a car I am interested in owning. Whether a car appeals to a wide range of buyers or not is of no concern to me if it does not fit my needs or wants.
One thing that I am sure of is that I will never purchase another car that does not have cockpit adjustable suspension settings.
CA
Sounds about right to me.
I like the idea of push button electric suspension adjustment, my only concern is it complicates things once aftermarket parts are introduced. I usually find myself adding upgraded wheels, swaybars and the need to lower most cars by 1-1.5". In a perfect world my next car would not have 4x4 wheel gap lol. I just find that most cars are tuned to please too wide an audience and I tailor things to my liking with the aftermarket.
January 1, 2013, 5:03 pm
They saw what was possible with the FI tuning of the N54 and N55. It is very appealing to people to get gains from plug and play tunes. They saw how to break into the ecu too.
The N20 allows them to apply that experience all over again. BMS had a N20 tune almost a year ago already.
You can't have it both ways. You have purists around here that wax on about the BMW of old. They want the new BMW's to be as much like the old as possible. Well, one of those ways is with a manual transmission. I don't care about cars that are not offered with manuals, they do not even make it onto my radar. You can talk about the future all you want. If BMW does not offer the 3 in a manual, it will not be on my radar. If the ATS is, it will make my short list.
There may be a day when there is no such thing as a new car offered with 3 pedals. That is likely decades away, I will figure it out then.
As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.
January 1, 2013, 5:11 pm
As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.
They learned enough from that experience and did the same with the N55.
We put an exhaust on my car no problem, even though there is a sensor/flap by the muffler, no CEL is triggered.
Just like the radar detection industry vs law enforcement, it's always going to be a game. Tuners will be working around the OEM's no matter what is thrown at them. They adapt and get smarter just as the OEM's do. There is money to be made, it's that simple.
The OEMs see money to be made too. They see things like SEMA and even they bring their goodies to the show. More and more they offer parts that do the same thing as the tuners but keep warranties intact and can even be rolled into cars payments. They want to protect that money to be made as well by making it hard for the tuners to steal their thunder. The M-Performance line for the F30 is quite sweeping and displays this nicely. From exterior and interior modifications to big brakes, full suspensions, intakes(not for the f30 yet), exhausts, and power pack tunes.
This is not a trend that is going to die.
January 1, 2013, 5:20 pm
I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks)
All I am saying is, be careful when you agree with BJ
We talked about the steering feel of the past 3ers. Regardless whether you like it or not, it was one of the things that made the 3. The same is true for the N/A I6.
You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.
Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.
As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.
January 1, 2013, 5:22 pm
A car with good ride quality absorbs poor road surfaces--potholes, bumps, etc.--without crashing, banging, jouncing and transmitting jolts to occupants' backsides. A car with poor ride quality is uncomfortable to drive for extended periods.
A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.
CA
To me, it is particularly important to feel the roads while driving here in Michigan (and the mid-west in general) because of the constant freeze/thaw cycles (black ice being the most frighting!). However, when you hit an imperfection in the road (example: 6" gap in the pavement crack with residual cement/blacktop pebbles spread all over the pavement for the next 50 yards), I do not want the feedback of every road pebble! When that happens, I grab the wheel too tightly losing that feedback I desire, however, I DO want to feel how the tires are gripping, I DO want to feel the texture of the pavement, I DO want to feel how how I am gripping into a curve, but spare me from the harsh feedback shock of the big ones! IMHO, I believe the F30 has executed this very well!
As far as the ride quality, I spend 2 hours a day commuting and IMHO the softer standard suspension found on the xDrive is quite good without harshness (am I too demanding?). The DHP would have been better, but on the xDrive I do not get the advantage of the lower center of gravity (xDrive height + DHP suspension height = 20 mm (1") higher ground clearance). Has someone else put the DHP on the AWD? Are they happy with it? Just seemed to defeat the purpose.
January 1, 2013, 5:38 pm
You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.
Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.
As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.
The 3 was born from the 2002 which was a 4 cylinder. Both the E30 and E36, both highly regarded as great generations, MANY MANY were sold with 4 cylinders.
The straight 6 made BMWs often unique to others with V-6's, but the 6 is not any more inherent in the history or defining of BMW than the 4 cylinder. I wonder globally, over the last 30 years, what engine BMW has BUILT the most of...it may very well be a 4 cylinder.
Also, do not make slight of the MPG/efficiency gains of the EPS or the N20. That's not really how it works. Today, it's the use of a host of small things that come together for meaningful gains. So An N52 with EPS would not be magic, an N52 with 8spd auto would not be magic, it's a lot of small things. It's low rolling resistance tires(hate them), its active aero tweaks(becoming more common) and non active, low friction engines and oils, high strength steel and soon more carbon fiber, and yes EPS. The F30 utilizes quite a few of these things all at once. And BMW is going to push this farther and farther with every generation. Maybe within 10 years the 3 series will weight 2900lbs thanks to intensive carbon fiber, have a 1.6L turbo 4 that makes 230hp, and gets 42mpg on the highway. My hope is it will still be RWD and have a manual lol.
January 1, 2013, 5:41 pm
All I am saying is, be careful when you agree with BJ
We talked about the steering feel of the past 3ers. Regardless whether you like it or not, it was one of the things that made the 3. The same is true for the N/A I6.
You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.
Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.
As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.
CA
January 1, 2013, 5:51 pm
CA
I think EPS feels different from what E90 drivers are used to. It does not mean the F30 does not offer good steering feel and feedback. It is still likely top of the class, only bettered by the ATS by some accounts.
I do wish and hope to see BMW offer a coding change to Sport and M-Sport cars that in Sport and Sport+ the car dials back the EPS by 10-20%.
January 1, 2013, 6:21 pm
Their replacement is not unique among the competitors, although the execution of it may still be better.
Offering something unique is obviously more important for a Porsche than a 3 series. I am not surprised the 3 lost some of its unique attributes. It is after all a mainstream entry level luxury model. As others pointed out, in such segment, it is the sum of all parts matters, not individual elements.
January 1, 2013, 6:41 pm
Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...
On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.
The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.
The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.
January 1, 2013, 6:41 pm
I think EPS feels different from what E90 drivers are used to. It does not mean the F30 does not offer good steering feel and feedback. It is still likely top of the class, only bettered by the ATS by some accounts.
I do wish and hope to see BMW offer a coding change to Sport and M-Sport cars that in Sport and Sport+ the car dials back the EPS by 10-20%.
There was a similar outcry when power steering first became populat in the 50s ans 60s. In those days it was an extra cost option (as were power brakes and radios and heaters) on all but very high end cars. In those days "purists" felt that power steering cars were devoid of road feel.
CA
January 1, 2013, 6:46 pm
There was a similar outcry when power steering first became populat in the 50s ans 60s. In those days it was an extra cost option (as were power brakes and radios and heaters) on all but very high end cars. In those days "purists" felt that power steering cars were devoid of road feel.
CA
These debates are kind of silly. They date back to the very start. I remember hearing about outcries when the car was first invented from the carriage/horse and buggy days.
There is this silly 80's movie with Meryl Streep and Albert Brookes(he drives an E30!) called Defending Your Life. He has to defend decisions he made in his past in order to get into heaven. He was offered stock in Casio and blew his friend off that no one would trust a Japanese time piece because the Japanese were not known to make anything well, nothing of precision. Hind sight is a bitch like that lol
January 1, 2013, 6:47 pm
January 1, 2013, 6:48 pm
Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...
On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.
The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.
The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.
January 1, 2013, 6:56 pm
January 1, 2013, 7:02 pm
While I also have a degree(only an associates, so it barely accounts) in marketing, I am aware of it's importance and use it in my work, but am also skeptical of anything it attempts to communicate with me. Example below*
So I really do not limit myself. I limit myself when trying to reel you into staying on topic or on focus and not trying to argue ten things at once with 20 different variables. I am now going to ramble on for my own amusement. I have listened to enough of your drivel. Enjoy.
*I went to school in the Detroit as I had planned to be a Car Designer. I attended CCS, one of the premiere colleges in the world largely known for car design. Pretty quickly I decided to focus on Product Design and kind of minor in cars as the car guys seem to have very short careers and found themselves without choices.
Sr. year I wound up having a class called Design Strategies taught by a GM industry spy(yes such a thing exists, they use a more PC term for the position).
Every other person in the class was in the core Transportation program, making it to a SR made them hot shots. I was the lone product guy there.
Teacher says, if you ran Porsche-would you greenlight the Cayenne(this was '01-02 I think, the SUV coming out was big news). All of the trans kids shouted no, how could they do such a thing, purist banter blah blah blah. I raised my hand and said I would.
You would, why? He asked.
I would greenlight it if I was in the business of making money. I take some of those profits and invest back in the company and make cars like the 911 better, cars the purists should buy and be thankful for the Cayenne which allowed it to happen.
So that little trip down memory lane...You sound like one of those kids who would have yapped about being too cool to allow something like the Cayenne to happen. Me-I know enough about business, about making product, about growth-I like the Cayenne and I like how BMW knows how to stay competitive within it's class and globally.
January 1, 2013, 7:06 pm
As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.
The N20 turbo is already running high at 16-18psi. Playing beyond certainly creates an important risk and there is no point doing so, given the minor $ increase for a 335i when you get so much in return.
January 1, 2013, 7:13 pm
Are you trying to play big shot with me or something? Spare me your marketing effort and your endless BS. lol! You are wasting my time and yours. BTW, what you failed to do (i.e. getting a professional degree in mechanical engineering), *I did*. j/k.
January 1, 2013, 7:22 pm
An engine like the N20, or most any modern small displacement turbo engine is designed with a lot of factors in mind, one of them of course being longevity.
BMW stress tested the block of the N20 like any other and wants it to last a couple hundred thousand miles. They over build and over engineer.
16-18psi is not high boost for this or any modern well engineered 2.0L 4.
In fact, you will likely see a higher performing variant with more power-more boost and the internals and block will likely stay the same. In fact, BMW themselves will be offering a power pack kit to increase boost just the way they are doing with the N55. BMW would not do such a thing if it drastically reduced reliability or had other unintended consequences.
One could argue, that any particular engine at stock boost will last 150,000 miles and one with higher than intended might last 120,000 miles. But when you factor in engine to engine variations, usage-city/highway, maintenance, that very same gap can exist from stock engine to stock engine.
There is though a point of diminishing returns and simply cramming too much boost and running a turbo out of it's efficiency range can kill it prematurely.
But a basic stage 1-2 tune netting 20-22psi tops, is not going to be a big deal to the N20. I have been raising the boost on 2.0-2.3L turbo cars for 15 years now and will continue to do so without problem(my S52 even has 13psi on the original head gasket). The key is a safe tune, healthy AFR's and not going overboard. I knew of Saab tuners that would warn a kid that 20psi was safe and they would do a custom "tune" netting 26psi and the kids would throw a rod as they were also running waaaay lean. No one is doing stupid crap like that with the N20.
January 1, 2013, 7:27 pm
So you say.
I am just having fun talking about whatever random thing comes into my head. Since talking to you seems to just bring out random crap about random cars and random figures. I thought I would share a little story that puts a bit of perspective that counters your biased interpretation of my counters being marketing based.
Don't come at me bro with ME BS
Keep this up and I will need to validate myself by posting cars I have designed, posting my portfolio and whipping out my e-pen...I mean resume hahaha :P
edit: In all seriousness, my best friends are all engineers. A lot of them out there do not have much social skills(cannot give or take a joke) or personality. Hearing you have an ME as a background makes some sense to me from going back and forth on some excruciatingly specific details. But you obviously at least have a sense of humor and personality-even if I want to scream from listening to it lol.
January 1, 2013, 8:39 pm
An engine like the N20, or most any modern small displacement turbo engine is designed with a lot of factors in mind, one of them of course being longevity.
BMW stress tested the block of the N20 like any other and wants it to last a couple hundred thousand miles. They over build and over engineer.
16-18psi is not high boost for this or any modern well engineered 2.0L 4.
We don't share the same definition of "high" then. Which one of these has the highest pressure? 2.0T in a 200HP VW Passat? 2.0T in an 211HP A4? 2.0T in a 270HP TTS? N55? None of them has higher turbo pressure than the N20. So yes, that qualifies as "high". Not the highest (GM runs at 20 on factory modified engines), but "high", it is. The N55 runs at much lower.
Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.
January 1, 2013, 8:43 pm
In the meanwhile, we saw the marketing guy who claims that he responded to basic facts, but failed to do so. And aligning three other empty paragraphs of your own won't change that.
January 1, 2013, 8:50 pm
We don't share the same definition of "high" then. Which one of these has the highest pressure? 2.0T in a 200HP VW Passat? 2.0T in an 211HP A4? 2.0T in a 270HP TTS? N55? None of them has higher turbo pressure than the N20. So yes, that qualifies as "high". Not the highest (GM runs at 20 on modified engines), but "high", it is. The N55 runs at much lower.
Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.
Meanwhile, I had a Viggen. It was plastered all over the media that it made over 20psi. It doesn't. It is CAPABLE of up to 20psi, the cars ecu would account for things such as elevation to hit target air mass so it made the same power at sea level or high elevation. This could be done by boosting UP TO 20.3psi. When a gauge was strapped to my car, it peaked at 13psi at sea level and when bolt on's thrown at it, 18.5psi.
So again, do not get hung up on the N20 boosting at 16-18psi as that is peak. Off boost it's an NA engine, probably 150hp lol. But on command, when called for it can PEAK at 18psi. Increasing that max a couple PSI when done with proper fueling is not a big deal.
I do not need to know what BMW considers acceptable. Manufactured things are built with tolerances. My BMW clutch holds MORE power than it actually needs to(my S52 clutch is stock lol), the N20 is not any different. If it was made to endure and handle only the exact boost it makes from the factory and no more, a lot more engines would grenade. Aside from handling boost, what about the engines that exceed oil changes, that maybe occasionally over-rev, that might see track days, might see excessive stop and go. Engines are over-engineered to account for such things. That includes a couple of psi.
When making a product I have had to anticipate all the ways something is to be used properly and improperly, I often have to build in a bit extra.
Your Mr. Mechanical Engineer. You should know all of this
January 1, 2013, 8:53 pm
January 1, 2013, 8:56 pm
January 1, 2013, 9:03 pm
January 1, 2013, 9:06 pm
I would greenlight it if I was in the business of making money. I take some of those profits and invest back in the company and make cars like the 911 better, cars the purists should buy and be thankful for the Cayenne which allowed it to happen.
So that little trip down memory lane...You sound like one of those kids who would have yapped about being too cool to allow something like the Cayenne to happen. Me-I know enough about business, about making product, about growth-I like the Cayenne and I like how BMW knows how to stay competitive within it's class and globally.
January 1, 2013, 9:10 pm
Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.
Respectfully, please leave this forum. You don't own an F30, you won't own an F30, all you do is attempt to agitate F30 owners. You own an E90. All of us here have owned E90's too. Please go to the E90 forum where you can annoy F30 owners over there who care what E90 owners think of our cars. If we want E90 owners' opinions, we know where to go. So should you.
Thank you for your cooperation.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 9:11 pm
January 1, 2013, 9:13 pm
Attention Malicious E90 Owners: We get it. You can cut it out now. It's not happening.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 9:17 pm
In yours, everyone races only 5-60(obviously, no speedlimits above 60mph), the N52 was kept, they added direct injection and it was so much better that the N20 never existed. You also get to put in 89 octane in your direct injected BMW, making even more superior to the Accord and Lexus Camry Es350 that you are beating from the 5mph roll.
January 1, 2013, 9:18 pm
...
Thank you for your cooperation.
BJ
January 1, 2013, 9:20 pm
The SAV(The X5-the X3, and now the X1) meant more money for BMW. This meant $$$ for the bread and butter sales champ the 3 which allows development of engines like the N20 and a bigger unibody with accommodating rear seating while being LIGHTER. It also allowed a lot more standard features and tech baked into the car while not inflating the price.
January 2, 2013, 2:19 am
The SAV(The X5-the X3, and now the X1) meant more money for BMW. This meant $$$ for the bread and butter sales champ the 3 which allows development of engines like the N20 and a bigger unibody with accommodating rear seating while being LIGHTER. It also allowed a lot more standard features and tech baked into the car while not inflating the price.
January 2, 2013, 10:29 am
A purist can find previous 3 series just a bit small(trunk, rear legroom, front shoulder room) and still want other driving ingredients for driving enjoyment.
January 2, 2013, 12:05 pm
A purist can find previous 3 series just a bit small(trunk, rear legroom, front shoulder room) and still want other driving ingredients for driving enjoyment.
Seriously though, no 3 series driver can be considered a purist. But we have other priorities, mainly a family to haul around, and cannot afford another weekend "purist" car. But at least if you are willing to sacrifice some ride comfort, room, trunk space..., for the enjoyment of driving a sporty car, you can claim your purist side of it.
For you my friend, if you have the weekend car to fulfill your purist side of it, then the F30 is likely to fulfill your family sedan daily commuter side of it. Good for you, but most 3 series drivers are not in your shoes.
January 2, 2013, 12:08 pm
January 2, 2013, 12:24 pm
January 2, 2013, 12:39 pm
In my opinion, you are not a purist...
You are not a purist...
Things often do not come across as intended on the internet
My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.
January 2, 2013, 12:47 pm
In my opinion, you are not a purist...
You are not a purist...
Things often do not come across as intended on the internet
My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.
January 2, 2013, 12:50 pm
January 2, 2013, 12:54 pm
In my opinion, you are not a purist...
You are not a purist...
Things often do not come across as intended on the internet
My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.
BTW, you don't have to remind me, I know I am not a purist, until such time I buy something like a Porsche 911, or Cayman as a weekend car.
I will then probably have to downgrade my 328i to something like a Cruze Eco as a highway commuter. But I will not go to a Cruze forum telling everyone I am a driving purist, despite the fact I know the Cruze Eco is actually a fun car to drive.
January 2, 2013, 1:05 pm
BTW, you don't have to remind me, I know I am not a purist, until such time I buy something like a Porsche 911, or Cayman as a weekend car.
I will then probably have to downgrade my 328i to something like a Cruze Eco as a highway commuter. But I will not go to a Cruze forum telling everyone I am a driving purist, despite the fact I know the Cruze Eco is actually a fun car to drive.
Again, purists can be purists and own cars that make the cut. But they still can have daily drivers.
I know people who have things like Forresters or even Geo Metros for an every day car that have things in the garage that leave me drooling.
I guess I could see your point if I bought my F30 as my purists car, my only car and wanted it to be all things that I get from my other car. That is not my intention or BMW's with a base 3 series.
January 2, 2013, 1:11 pm
Again, purists can be purists and own cars that make the cut. But they still can have daily drivers.
January 2, 2013, 1:23 pm
I can post in this forum all I want, just as you are allowed to even though you do not have the car designated by this forum. Out of the two of us, that puts you closer to the D-bag side.
Now on your point, if I posted in my E36/7 forum without owning one, talking bad about their cars while extolling the virtues of my F30-that is D-Bag city!
Second:
I do not recall stating that my daily driver is what I regard as the vehicle that would define or not define me as a purist.
January 2, 2013, 1:30 pm
I do not recall stating that my daily driver is what I regard as the vehicle that would define or not define me as a purist.
If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.
January 2, 2013, 1:35 pm
If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.
January 2, 2013, 1:39 pm
If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.
I also did not call you a D-bag for not driving an F30. You implied I could be considered a D-bag for stating my purist cred on another forum-one not directly related to the car I care about, but my DD. I was stating that the closest thing to your hypothetical is what you are doing already
I think it is a bit of accepted knowledge that every generation of small BMW dating back from the 2002 has gotten bigger, heavier, more civilized, a bit farther away from the purists ideal. But that does not make any one iteration a complete failure to the purist mindset. Again, you give a little here and you get a lot more of something else in return.
January 2, 2013, 1:40 pm
January 2, 2013, 1:48 pm
I also did not call you a D-bag for not driving an F30. You implied I could be considered a D-bag for stating my purist cred on another forum-one not directly related to the car I care about, but my DD. I was stating that the closest thing to your hypothetical is what you are doing already
I think it is a bit of accepted knowledge that every generation of small BMW dating back from the 2002 has gotten bigger, heavier, more civilized, a bit farther away from the purists ideal. But that does not make any one iteration a complete failure to the purist mindset. Again, you give a little here and you get a lot more of something else in return.
January 2, 2013, 1:57 pm
Be your own person, make your own arguments.
I can say clearly there are some things I agree with BJ on and others not so much. He bought one of the most polar opposite cars one can buy within the same series. He got what he wanted, the experience he wanted and it's quite different than mine.
I do not need to be pigeon held into what a BMW driver is, or what a F30 328 driver is. I buy what I like, I do what I like. I ordered a bare bones manual-many would advise against that. The minute I broke the car in, it was on the dyno-many won't even know what that means. I instantly began modifying it, making it sound better, go faster, look better, handle better-most would cringe and think only of the warranty. I already pulled out the wood trim myself and swapped in the aluminum-most would leave things as is and surely pay the dealer to do it if they did. I also plan on Auto-x, track days, and maybe even a few 1/4 passes in between the occasional redlight 0-70 pull.
I care not one bit about what people would do or think I should do with my car purchase. I really did not want to buy a new BMW as I have had bad experiences with every modern BMW encounter as who the typical owner(aside from a guy at the parts counter who was picking up parts for his Z4 who insisted I track my car with the CCA). Only the fact that my CC was up for replacement and the F30 N20/6mt combo made for such a good lateral move, that is the only reason I gave in to buy such a me-too car.
January 2, 2013, 2:03 pm
Be your own person, make your own arguments.
I can say clearly there are some things I agree with BJ on and others not so much. He bought one of the most polar opposite cars one can buy within the same series. He got what he wanted, the experience he wanted and it's quite different than mine.
I do not need to be pigeon held into what a BMW driver is, or what a F30 328 driver is. I buy what I like, I do what I like. I ordered a bare bones manual-many would advise against that. The minute I broke the car in, it was on the dyno-many won't even know what that means. I instantly began modifying it, making it sound better, go faster, look better, handle better-most would cringe and think only of the warranty. I already pulled out the wood trim myself and swapped in the aluminum-most would leave things as is and surely pay the dealer to do it if they did. I also plan on Auto-x, track days, and maybe even a few 1/4 passes in between the occasional redlight 0-70 pull.
I care not one bit about what people would do or think I should do with my car purchase. I really did not want to buy a new BMW as I have had bad experiences with every modern BMW encounter as who the typical owner(aside from a guy at the parts counter who was picking up parts for his Z4 who insisted I track my car with the CCA). Only the fact that my CC was up for replacement and the F30 N20/6mt combo made for such a good lateral move, that is the only reason I gave in to buy such a me-too car.
January 2, 2013, 2:06 pm
January 2, 2013, 2:21 pm
I posted this impression of the F30 in another thread, but I think it's relevant here. As my immediate point of reference was an E46 6 speed manual coupe that I drove for 6 years. A purist car of sorts.
Took the 335i through Old Topanga and back yesterday aftenoon, now that it's broken in. It felt every bit a tossable 3 Series. I wasn't sure how it would corner on some of those really tight twisties since the Sport susension is more "refined" than the M. The run flats scrubbed a bit on really hard corners, but were remarkably good considering all the flack you here about them. Car felt very flat in the turns.
The turbo really pulls on the climb and of course the cabin is much quieter than the M3. Steering in Sports mode felt tight and stable.
There is one really sharp jog to the right going Northbound not far from New Topanga. The rock hillside is very close to the lane. It put the pucker factor in when driving my old 530i. One of the first things I noticed when I got an E46 325i was you could power on around that bend and remain in your lane quite easily. My first experience with a 3er. The F30 has that same feel.
Thinking about it, I've been driving that canyon since 1971 starting with motorcycles and various cars through the years. A good reference for one's ride.
Purist? All I know is I don't miss the M3. Seems to me, if all you wanted was a DD any F30 will fill the bill. But that doesn't mean if you love driving in more than a straight line an F30 is not a purist kind of sport sedan.
January 2, 2013, 2:28 pm
Took the 335i through Old Topanga and back yesterday aftenoon, now that it's broken in. It felt every bit a tossable 3 Series. I wasn't sure how it would corner on some of those really tight twisties since the Sport susension is more "refined" than the M. The run flats scrubbed a bit on really hard corners, but were remarkably good considering all the flack you here about them. Car felt very flat in the turns.
The turbo really pulls on the climb and of course the cabin is much quieter than the M3. Steering in Sports mode felt tight and stable.
There is one really sharp jog to the right going Northbound not far from New Topanga. The rock hillside is very close to the lane. It put the pucker factor in when driving my old 530i. One of the first things I noticed when I got an E46 325i was you could power on around that bend and remain in your lane quite easily. My first experience with a 3er. The F30 has that same feel.
Thinking about it, I've been driving that canyon since 1971 starting with motorcycles and various cars through the years. A good reference for one's ride.
Purist? All I know is I don't miss the M3. Seems to me, if all you wanted was a DD any F30 will fill the bill. But that doesn't mean if you love driving in more than a straight line an F30 is not a purist kind of sport sedan.
Good input,
I think you can support, that if something was "decreased" in the F30, it was not drastic and decreasing is not the same as eliminating. And while somethings were decreased, others were increased in a positive way.
January 2, 2013, 2:32 pm
I have to say, and I'm new to this forum but not to BMWs - I LOVE my F30. I had a 2007 328i Coupe and loved that car as well. But this new one, is utterly divine. Aesthetically, it's a head turner. I particularly love the looks Audi and MB owners give. Honestly, owning a BMW is like rediscovering that part of your soul that has been missing or is dormant and waking it up. Driving to work is no longer a commute, it's a straight out adventure.
Now, the coupe had its advantages no doubt, but I do not feel like I've lost anything going to a sedan. The F30 performs blissfully. The ONLY issue I have is the automatic turn off when the car is idling in traffic or at a light. But a simple button click fixes that.
January 2, 2013, 2:37 pm
Now, the coupe had its advantages no doubt, but I do not feel like I've lost anything going to a sedan. The F30 performs blissfully. The ONLY issue I have is the automatic turn off when the car is idling in traffic or at a light. But a simple button click fixes that.
January 2, 2013, 2:42 pm
According to BJ, 98% of F30 drivers drive it in part because they care about how they project their images to their neighbors, how comfortable it is for their own families, and how good the advanced gadgets are so they can play while driving.
In fact a base F30, according to BJ, is for pretenders, who has no financial means but still want to be in the club.
Since you are clearly not a typical F30 driver, and you don't care what people think of your choices, I say simply driving an F30 does not give you much authority in this forum.
I will go so far to say, you are even less representative of the F30 drivers compared to those who drive the E90 and may have a few negative things to say about the F30.
Sainter for example, will gladly drive an F30 335i. He just does not care for the 2.0T. He is actually more in line with the F30 crowd than you are.
My point is, just because you drive an F30, does not make you better suited for the F30 forum, than an E90 driver.
January 2, 2013, 2:50 pm
According to BJ, 98% of F30 drivers drive it in part because they care about how they project their images to their neighbors, how comfortable it is for their own families, and how good the advanced gadgets are so they can play while driving.
In fact a base F30, according to BJ, is for pretenders, who has no financial means but still want to be in the club.
Since you are clearly not a typical F30 driver, and you don't care what people think of your choices, I say simply driving an F30 does not give you much authority in this forum.
I will go so far to say, you are even less representative of the F30 drivers compared to those who drive the E90 and may have a few negative things to say about the F30.
I stated you should make your own arguments and that most posts you make in this section have to reference BJ it seems. Just as I explain that, your reply to me again, mentions others and BJ. Hence, proving my point. And again with your latest.
I have had good back and forth in this thread and in this section. Look at my replies, I do not rely on other people's statements, I am confident enough in what I am trying to get across. I also do not scour the net for figures and magazine tests.
January 2, 2013, 3:00 pm
I am saying you have demonstrated you are the very fringe of the F30 drivers. For that reason you don't get to dismiss someone just because he drives an E90, not an F30. Especially consider this is an F30 vs. E90 thread.
January 2, 2013, 3:05 pm
I am saying you have demonstrated you are the very fringe of the F30 drivers. For that reason you don't get to dismiss someone just because he drives an E90, not an F30. Especially consider this is an F30 vs. E90 thread.
My counter was that if anyone was going to be guilty of such a thing it would be you as your behavior in this forum resembles the hypothetical you tried to involve me in.
So I am not dismissing you, an E90 driver, I am not dismissing anyone. If anything, I dismiss those who come into this thread or this forum who have bias enough to speak matter of fact-ly when admitting to NEVER even driving an F30. Aside from that, post all you want. If you make yourself seem silly, that's on you.
Again, you may have BJ on the brain. He is the one who tells you and Saintor to go away and never come back. I don't care so much.
January 2, 2013, 3:18 pm
My counter was that if anyone was going to be guilty of such a thing it would be you as your behavior in this forum resembles the hypothetical you tried to involve me in.
So I am not dismissing you, an E90 driver, I am not dismissing anyone. If anything, I dismiss those who come into this thread or this forum who have bias enough to speak matter of fact-ly when admitting to NEVER even driving an F30. Aside from that, post all you want. If you make yourself seem silly, that's on you.
Again, you may have BJ on the brain. He is the one who tells you and Saintor to go away and never come back. I don't care so much.
January 2, 2013, 3:24 pm
This has no affect on me.
People have free will to decide if the information provided is for them or not.
So far my experiences, such as dyno'ing and developing of the Rogue Catback has netted lots of PM's and inquiries. I have also now posted a DIY on removing interior trim panels. There are F30 drivers looking for information and experience. I have info and experience-it does not have to connect with anyone. I am not insulted if someone does not need that info or chooses not to read something I post.
Maybe you are, or others. I am going to post the same whether 100 people read it-find an interest in it or no one does.
January 2, 2013, 3:30 pm
This has no affect on me.
People have free will to decide if the information provided is for them or not.
So far my experiences, such as dyno'ing and developing of the Rogue Catback has netted lots of PM's and inquiries. I have also now posted a DIY on removing interior trim panels. There are F30 drivers looking for information and experience. I have info and experience-it does not have to connect with anyone. I am not insulted if someone does not need that info or chooses not to read something I post.
Maybe you are, or others. I am going to post the same whether 100 people read it-find an interest in it or no one does.
Yes, you did try to dismiss ones who do not drive F30. This is from me who actually did several mods on my own 328i and did several autox events. But this is not what this thread is about. Bragging about it does no good for this discussion, it only proves BJ's cynical point of view, which I do not share.
Not confused enough?
January 2, 2013, 3:48 pm
Yes, you did try to dismiss ones who do not drive F30. This is from me who actually did several mods on my own 328i and did several autox events. But this is not what this thread is about. Bragging about it does no good for this discussion, it only proves BJ's cynical point of view, which I do not share.
Not confused enough?
Others can decide for themselves what value there is or not is in anything I say or what kind or percentage of F30 owner I am. There is a thread on the other forum where we have a growing number of people tracking their F30's and having great experiences. The semantics of what percentage that is of BMW owners, no one cares. Its true today with the F30 and going back decades. The people who really take these cars to the limit is a very small percentage. It is not me alone. But I also do not speak for some made up majority either.
I do not and have no dismissed anyone who does not own an F30. I dismiss those who speak to the F30 as if they have first hand experience when admitting to not having first hand experience. This is not unique to cars, anyone who walks into a conversation as an expert when they have no experience in what they speak-yep, quite annoying. It is not my unique feeling either, I share it with quite a few people.
And again, another post where you have to mention BJ as if it's the word of the day of Pee-Wee's Playhouse.
Reply only if you feel you have something to add to this, this back and forth scrutinizing who I am personally as an F30 owner is kind of wasted bandwidth. I have no interest in analyzing you, BJ, or much of anyone else here to such a degree. I really don't need you to get hung up on me next the way you already seem to do with BJ.
January 2, 2013, 4:05 pm
I am not aware anyone who is commenting about F30 but has no first hand experience with it.
It all depends on the subject. Obviously if he is commenting on the look of the F30, he dose not have to drive it first, or if he is comparing the EPA mpg between the F30 N20 and F10 N52, he does not have to log the mpg in an F30 for a week before he can speak on the subject.
Or if he is talking about 5-60 time, not driving it does not dismiss what he has to say, because he is referring to facts provided by the mags.
But if he is discussing the drive feel, yes he has less credibility in this subject unless he had driven it.
January 2, 2013, 4:09 pm
It all depends on the subject. Obviously if he is commenting on the look of the F30, he dose not have to drive it first, or if he is comparing the EPA mpg between the F30 N20 and F10 N52, he does not have to log the mpg in an F30 for a week before he can speak on the subject.
Or if he is talking about 5-60 time, not driving it does not dismiss what he has to say, because he is referring to facts provided by the mags.
But if he is discussing the drive feel, yes he has less credibility in this subject unless he had driven it.
All of your Saintor figure rehashing is unneeded. Again, why do you seem to be speaking for other people who are more than competent at speaking for themselves.
Saintor had figures I did not agree with, and he did not agree with mine. Just because I did not agree it did not mean anything about his ownership or lack of ownership of an F30. All he was doing was digging up magazine specifications to his liking while dismissing other figures of my liking from the very same article. No need for you to turn it into something more, this F30 owner racism where you are not allowed to speak or have an opinion contrary to mine lol.
You are making it out like I was a victor in all of this, a bully, and that people came to my aid and no one to the aid of those with an opposing view. I bet the people on the other side still think I was wrong and they are right which makes your statements seem null and void.
January 2, 2013, 4:09 pm
January 2, 2013, 4:15 pm
If you read it clearly, it says post IF YOU feel you have something to add. How does that make me the one to decide?
It was my hope that you would stop-kind of a challenge to move on.
It did not work
January 2, 2013, 4:15 pm
January 2, 2013, 4:18 pm
It's exhausting.
January 2, 2013, 4:21 pm
January 2, 2013, 4:22 pm
It's exhausting.
I think they are relevant to the thread and the forum, differ only in degrees of relevance.
January 2, 2013, 4:40 pm
I think they are relevant to the thread and the forum, differ only in degrees of relevance.
You asked me to quote each time someone posts about the F30 after admitting to not drive one. I will keep updating this as I spend the next HOUR combing lol.
Here you go:
While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30.
What people are saying about new BMWs is that they lack active feedback in the steering and just feels disconnected.*
We'll see what they do with the new 4 but its starting to sound like if you want a legitimate sports sedan out of BMW you'll need to buy something with an M badge.
The moral of the story is, drive an F30 setup most like your current car. Then you can judge and compare in the most fair and realistic way. If you hate the F30 after that, great, who am I to judge. If that is one thing from me I would like to leave this thread with, it's that.
January 2, 2013, 5:12 pm
While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:
.
Here is my post in its entirety:
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30. In a sense that is a moot point since the E90 is no longer available. What would make more sense is to compare the F30 to competitors that are currently available and in that respect it seems to be holding its own. After my experiences with the 335i and the 750 I will never buy a New York car that does not have an adjustable suspension.
I willl not be buying an F30 (I am sure it is an excellent car but I have no use for a small sedan) but will look at the 4 Series Cabrio when it was released. I will also look at a number of other cars and an particularly interested in the new Jaguar F-Type.
I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,
CA
January 2, 2013, 5:19 pm
When I was quoting other people I made it clear that I was quoting other people and that I did not necessarily agree or disagree with them in cases where I had no first hand experience,
CA
It was the first post I saw 1 minute into combing this thread and it started with you saying you had never driven an F30 hehe.
Be assured, I like your posts quite a bit, they do not show bias and are very well informed.
But that sentence was too good of a fit to ignore.
I stopped 10 minutes into this search, I got exhausted by the Beden1 back and forths and got a headache.
Points have been made.
My favorite point, once again. Drive an f30 closest to what you own now. If you love your N54 or N55, dont drive an N20 and say how it's not as fast as your E90. Have a modified or Sport suspension E90, dont drive your base F30 loaner and say it has tons of body roll compared to your E90.
I think that's more than fair.
January 2, 2013, 5:58 pm
It was the first post I saw 1 minute into combing this thread and it started with you saying you had never driven an F30 hehe.
Be assured, I like your posts quite a bit, they do not show bias and are very well informed.
But that sentence was too good of a fit to ignore.
I stopped 10 minutes into this search, I got exhausted by the Beden1 back and forths and got a headache.
Points have been made.
My favorite point, once again. Drive an f30 closest to what you own now. If you love your N54 or N55, dont drive an N20 and say how it's not as fast as your E90. Have a modified or Sport suspension E90, dont drive your base F30 loaner and say it has tons of body roll compared to your E90.
I think that's more than fair.
It is obvious however that there are a number of posters here who are posting based on what they read rather than on their own experience.
It is also obvious that a number of the comments on "handling" and "road feel" are coming from people who have limited understanding of vehicle dynamics, have little or no experience with driving at anywhere close to the limits and who couldn't tell you the difference between oversteer and understeer, let alone how to correct for it, without going to Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with that but those people need to realize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we discuss handling. I, for example, do not consider the ease with which the steering wheel can be turned while parallel parking to be part of handling.
All cars feel like they are cornering on rails if you are going slow enough. Some cars can retain the "cornering on rails" feeling at higher speeds than others. An important part of handling is how the car reacts as you approach the limits of traction, how much advance warning you get as the limits are approached and how well the car reacts to corrective actions.
Better handling does not necessarily equate to higher track speeds. A case in point would be a Spec Miata. There are many more powerful cars than Miatas that may be faster around certain tracks that do not handle anywhere near as well.
CA
January 2, 2013, 6:38 pm
It is obvious however that there are a number of posters here who are posting based on what they read rather than on their own experience.
It is also obvious that a number of the comments on "handling" and "road feel" are coming from people who have limited understanding of vehicle dynamics, have little or no experience with driving at anywhere close to the limits and who couldn't tell you the difference between oversteer and understeer, let alone how to correct for it, without going to Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with that but those people need to realize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we discuss handling. I, for example, do not consider the ease with which the steering wheel can be turned while parallel parking to be part of handling.
All cars feel like they are cornering on rails if you are going slow enough. Some cars can retain the "cornering on rails" feeling at higher speeds than others. An important part of handling is how the car reacts as you approach the limits of traction, how much advance warning you get as the limits are approached and how well the car reacts to corrective actions.
Better handling does not necessarily equate to higher track speeds. A case in point would be a Spec Miata. There are many more powerful cars than Miatas that may be faster around certain tracks that do not handle anywhere near as well.
CA
You should post more often
January 2, 2013, 6:48 pm
All three posts quoted above are legit comments, they all admitted they had not driven an F30, but commented on the steering feedback, based on some level of consensus by others.
I personally will not hold people to such a high standard that they must first drive the car, before they can comment on something people have pretty much built a consensus on, in this case, the steering feedback, or lack of it.
January 2, 2013, 7:12 pm
I personally will not hold people to such a high standard that they must first drive the car, before they can comment on something people have pretty much built a consensus on, in this case, the steering feedback, or lack of it.
Lets say your company says we are going to give you a raise if you relocate to one of two different states.
You ask around for feedback.
There are people who say:
1) I have been to neither of those states, I cannot say
2 ) I have only been to one of the states, so I cannot say which is better, but here is my account of one of them
3) I have been to both states numerous times, they both have a lot going for them, here is what you may or may not prefer-this is my preference
4) I have only been to one of the states, but I read an article somewhere that the other state is terrible.
Now to me, 1-3 are honest and helpful. 4-can be helpful-but a bit biased. Now what happens if you go around and ask more and more people, but person number 4 walks over each time and repeats themselves over and over.
Let me tell you, many people posting in this section are that way, and if you do not find it annoying-that is great for you. These same people are going out of their way to repeat themselves in THIS section. People like me, our job is not to police the internet and find every corner where someone does not agree with us on the F30. But coming to the F30 section and constantly repeating the same thing when admitting you have not done your homework-that you are just going to go sheep-style and go by the magazines and others first hand accounts-yep, really annoying. But you feel entitled to do so. I am just as entitled to be annoyed and counter with first hand experience of driving the cars in questions, not just reading about it, or what that guy said.
There are other people in here that do find it annoying too.
January 2, 2013, 7:23 pm
Moving the steering wheel button from the right side of the column to the left side did NOTHING for its useability. It can't be seen, and the on/off state cannot be felt with the hands.
Several times I've wondered if I pressed it hard enough to activate it. The only way to tell is with a dental mirror, the door open, or making a sharp turn.
Put it on the front of the steering wheel like on the E39. For those who don't order the option, turn it inot an HVAC recirc button or something.
Or put it on the top of the steering column where at least it would be visible.
January 2, 2013, 7:28 pm
Several times I've wondered if I pressed it hard enough to activate it. The only way to tell is with a dental mirror, the door open, or making a sharp turn.
Put it on the front of the steering wheel like on the E39. For those who don't order the option, turn it inot an HVAC recirc button or something.
Or put it on the top of the steering column where at least it would be visible.
What about the trunk pop button? Anyone else find that to be ergonomically terrible? Our Saab has it right under the door pull down from the window switches, I never have to give it a second thought to find it.
January 2, 2013, 7:33 pm
What about the trunk pop button? Anyone else find that to be ergonomically terrible? Our Saab has it right under the door pull down from the window switches, I never have to give it a second thought to find it.
January 2, 2013, 10:07 pm
You ask around for feedback.
There are people who say:
1) I have been to neither of those states, I cannot say
2 ) I have only been to one of the states, so I cannot say which is better, but here is my account of one of them
3) I have been to both states numerous times, they both have a lot going for them, here is what you may or may not prefer-this is my preference
4) I have only been to one of the states, but I read an article somewhere that the other state is terrible.
Now to me, 1-3 are honest and helpful. 4-can be helpful-but a bit biased. Now what happens if you go around and ask more and more people, but person number 4 walks over each time and repeats themselves over and over.
It is assumed when someone asks the question, he does not already have the answer before, therefore all 4 above have the same levels of legitimacy as if they were given for the first time, for the guy who asked the question that is.
Ask any good salesperson, he/she will tell you they answer the same questions as if those were asked for the very first time, even though they had answered those questions the 1,000th time.
The fact you have heard the same answers too many times before is irrelevant, they were not trying to answer your questions.
January 2, 2013, 11:14 pm
It is assumed when someone asks the question, he does not already have the answer before, therefore all 4 above have the same levels of legitimacy as if they were given for the first time, for the guy who asked the question that is.
Ask any good salesperson, he/she will tell you they answer the same questions as if those were asked for the very first time, even though they had answered those questions the 1,000th time.
The fact you have heard the same answers too many times before is irrelevant, they were not trying to answer your questions.
It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk. Now maybe you miss-understood and that you only asked 4 people, no I gave 4 examples of the answers you may get. This is a big decision, you are polling your entire office, maybe even friends and family. This whole time though, the type mentioned as #4, follows you and repeats his opinion(from 2nd hand info) over and over.
I am absolutely done with dialog with you in this thread. I too often feel like I am talking to myself and it's getting no one anywhere or bettering a debate.
I have tried to hit home my goal grain of information that if someone is to really want to compare an E90 to an F30 to get a real picture of the car for THEMSELVES and drive what best represents the car they currently have.
January 3, 2013, 12:26 am
It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk.
January 3, 2013, 2:59 am
You asked me to quote each time someone posts about the F30 after admitting to not drive one. I will keep updating this as I spend the next HOUR combing lol.
Here you go:
While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:
From an E90 vs F30 thread on F30post that Saintor took part in:
Going back to my earlier replies, I also took offense to people who drove a base 328 non Sport suspension cars and compared it to their N54 and N55 and or their Sport suspension E90s. I won't quote all of those.
The moral of the story is, drive an F30 setup most like your current car. Then you can judge and compare in the most fair and realistic way. If you hate the F30 after that, great, who am I to judge. If that is one thing from me I would like to leave this thread with, it's that.
Ive heard oh f30s have so much more body roll than my e90. I have pictures from a trackday that show plenty of e90s with just as much or even more body roll lol. the same pictures also show an e36 m3 with major body roll (and those are the true track beasts right?) There is a difference between a car that has body roll yet feels planted on the outside vs a car with bodyroll that feels like its gonna tip over or just wont turn. I dont understand this.
What does someone mean when saying the steering is "soft"? its not like you cant feel the car lose grip and correct it. Im not an f1 driver. I dont even want stiff steering when im driving home or parking. I had an mr2 with no power steering before. Feedback was great but a steering wheel that twitches on every single crack in the pavement is a little too much. Press the driver mode button and there you go its stiff again. Get wider tires and itll stiffen up some more.
Ppl cant honestly speak to a car's performance levels driving to work or the grocery store can they? (even if you take "hard" left/right turns lol.) I know i couldnt. I only take in the feedback from experienced drivers (at the track) as well as feedback from weekend track whores. I wish more f30s came out so that we could get honest input on how much more perf you are actually getting with msport or sport line or vs the e90. Im a bit disappointed with the lack of ppl with f30s that track. On the other forum there isnt even an autox track thread!! Although Ive seen a guy bring out an f30 loaner to autocross ha. These cars do well at the track out of the box (get rid of funflats) and any negative "feel" comments are subjective.
The e90 and f30 are both great cars. Ive had a high hp evo with upgraded suspension which handled decently but that **** still understeered. Turn **** let off gas! turn **** let off gas!! In my BASE 328i i already felt that it turned in a lot better than my evo. I may be slower around the track but it has better balance and a smoothness to it that the evo didnt have. this f30 would rip **** up if it had upgraded suspension and 400+/400+ to the wheels like my evo did.
Now go get that prototype done already dammit!!!
Please note: This is not meant to offend anyone and are just my personal thoughts. You can talk **** but I probably wont even be in this thread again. If you do actually bother to respond negatively, awesome ! You win!! Congrats! You are better than me!! =)
January 3, 2013, 3:26 am
Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...
On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.
The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.
The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.
Sorry jameson it didnt quote who you quoted.
Im pretty sure that when the e90 first came out, ppl were saying loss of feel loss of this loss of that. Too big. Too mainstream. So the cycle begins again lol.
January 3, 2013, 4:25 am
So you say f30 is large take home / take away meal
E90 is a sushi ....
January 3, 2013, 11:45 am
It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk. Now maybe you miss-understood and that you only asked 4 people, no I gave 4 examples of the answers you may get. This is a big decision, you are polling your entire office, maybe even friends and family. This whole time though, the type mentioned as #4, follows you and repeats his opinion(from 2nd hand info) over and over.
I am absolutely done with dialog with you in this thread. I too often feel like I am talking to myself and it's getting no one anywhere or bettering a debate.
I have tried to hit home my goal grain of information that if someone is to really want to compare an E90 to an F30 to get a real picture of the car for THEMSELVES and drive what best represents the car they currently have.
Unfortunately, the F30 is designed to attract people who are not interested in taking it off the road, or modifying it for better handling. As such the handling most people can talk about at most is when it is pushed to 7 or 8/10 of the limit, on some public twisties when no one is watching. I suspect even that is a rare sight.
January 3, 2013, 1:16 pm
So far it still is, IMO.
Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.
If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.
So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.
I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.
January 3, 2013, 1:39 pm
So far it still is, IMO.
Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.
If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.
So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.
I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.
January 3, 2013, 2:09 pm
Currently in a 2013 F30 xdrive loaner. I dont track but I can immediately feel the steering is too soft and does not have as much feedback. I can live with it, but I feel like im driving a van. Interior is nicer, better seats, better console position, overall, I am more comfortable than in a e90. I still have the complaint of the idrive screen being too far into the dash. I rather have it integrated in the middle console like other makers. thank god that hump is gone, but not so much better having a slab on the table.
At the end of the day, would I prefer the F30: yes
Is the F30 better than the e90: I would say they are equal if you add/minus all the points
Now the wait for the F32...
January 3, 2013, 6:20 pm
For those who must have hydraulic steering, you can alway try a few xdrive models such as 535xi or X1.
January 3, 2013, 8:02 pm
So far it still is, IMO.
Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.
Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 8:56 pm
Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 9:12 pm
Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 9:20 pm
so... Is
1. Chris bangle > Karim Habib (BMW chief designer)
2. Chris bangle < Karim Habib
3. Chris Bangle = Karim Habib
4. They are both losers
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/24/b...-design-chief/
Your votes ????
January 3, 2013, 9:23 pm
After some nice spirited driving in my favorite canyon, I can say the F30 handles like a true 3er. The only nit I have is the run flats compared to the Pilots on the M3. But, the run flats are pretty damn good in their own right.
January 3, 2013, 10:59 pm
I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.
Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 11:03 pm
Audi owners are ex-Volkswagen owners. They despise arrogant BMW owners. Mercedes Benz owners eschew sporty driving tendencies. They despise arrogant BMW owners.
Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.
As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 11:05 pm
Audi owners are ex-Volkswagen owners. They despise arrogant BMW owners. Mercedes Benz owners eschew sporty driving tendencies. They despise arrogant BMW owners.
Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.
As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 11:23 pm
Audi owners are ex-Volkswagen owners. They despise arrogant BMW owners. Mercedes Benz owners eschew sporty driving tendencies. They despise arrogant BMW owners.
Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.
As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.
BJ
- Ford (62% customer retention)
- Honda (62% customer retention)
- Hyundai (60% customer retention)
- Lexus (60% customer retention)
- Toyota (60% customer retention)
BMW, Audi and Mercedes are very close to each other in sales and Lexus, which was the best selling luxury brand for many years, is fighting to regain losses in incurred after the tsunami disaster in Japan. Audi trimmed BMW's lead in 2012 luxury-car sales worldwide to just 2,110 vehicles by the end of August, compared with a 40,000-vehicle deficit at the same time last year. Audi is being fueled by growth in China and in the U.S. in particular, reports Bloomberg.
January 3, 2013, 11:45 pm
I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.
Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.
BJ
January 3, 2013, 11:52 pm
Audi owners are ex-Volkswagen owners. They despise arrogant BMW owners. Mercedes Benz owners eschew sporty driving tendencies. They despise arrogant BMW owners.
Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.
As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.
BJ
You really should start including a disclaimer that says something like "purely my opinion", and possibly "BMW F30 super duper fanboy" when you post.
January 4, 2013, 12:04 am
I cross shop and cross own multiple brands. I'm not loyal to one brand and fortunately an equal opportunity car lover. I have an MB E350 and it serves the purpose for which I purchased it for well, yet I would consider a 5 series when it is time to replace it as well as another E. I have a Cayenne S, but would not likely consider an MB ML as a replacement. I might consider an X5, but with knowledge the new version will be out shortly, I would not likely replace with an X5 until the new model is released. I have a Boxster S, and would be hard pressed to replace that car with SLK, but might consider a Z4, but in all likelihood, replace with another Boxster S. My wife has an Audi, and she would consider multiple brands,including Audi, for a replacement. I'm looking at smaller sedans now, which is where my interest in the F30 comes into play. This will be an addition versus a replacement. I want something larger and less sports car-like than the Boxster, but less sedate than the E350. I'm leaning towards the 335, but would also consider an S4/S5, and would also consider a 4 series if it were available. I would not likely consider a C-Class, and I have no interest in cross shopping Cadillacs. I guess I don't fit the brand loyalist mold.
January 4, 2013, 12:13 am
I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.
Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 12:17 am
January 4, 2013, 12:30 am
CA
January 4, 2013, 1:24 am
- Ford (62% customer retention)
- Honda (62% customer retention)
- Hyundai (60% customer retention)
- Lexus (60% customer retention)
- Toyota (60% customer retention)
BMW, Audi and Mercedes are very close to each other in sales and Lexus, which was the best selling luxury brand for many years, is fighting to regain losses in incurred after the tsunami disaster in Japan. Audi trimmed BMW's lead in 2012 luxury-car sales worldwide to just 2,110 vehicles by the end of August, compared with a 40,000-vehicle deficit at the same time last year. Audi is being fueled by growth in China and in the U.S. in particular, reports Bloomberg.
January 4, 2013, 1:58 am
Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 1:59 am
BJ
January 4, 2013, 2:03 am
You really should start including a disclaimer that says something like "purely my opinion", and possibly "BMW F30 super duper fanboy" when you post.
And as an owner of two E9X vehicles I think I've got a good grip on what the F30 is or isn't. As someone who hasn't owned an E90 and doesn't own an F30, perhaps you can go back to the forum where the 14 year olds worship your every move and bow before the 335is as if it's a precious jewel. They need your help over there. Lots of questions about leaking oil, used car prices, how to get the Bar Mitzvah money out of the bank without the parents looking, etc.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 2:05 am
BJ
January 4, 2013, 2:07 am
Remember that the F30 transition created significant downtime for 3 Series sales and the knowledge of the new F32 and F33 slowed down those bodystyles as well. Next year with all 4 bodystyles in the new sheetmetal sales will return to normal and Audi and MB will be comfortably in the rearview mirror.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 2:36 am
BJ
-Corey
January 4, 2013, 11:18 am
Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 11:29 am
-Corey
January 4, 2013, 11:47 am
January 4, 2013, 12:52 pm
January 4, 2013, 12:59 pm
So far it still is, IMO.
Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.
If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.
So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.
I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.
The new cockpit layout has the traditional gauges with pretty good intrigration of some modern functionality. The new iDrive sceen is not the hidious hump in the middle of the dash as the e90 and has a minimal material between the top of the screen and the road (I paid a premium to get my Samsung TV with a small frame). Some other models like the A4 have the Navigation screen intigrated in the dash requires you to "Look Way Down Off the Road to view" (remember the old radios at the lowest part of the dash or tape players under the dashboard?). The BMW Navigation keeps your vision closer to the road in front of the driver. In the same respect, the HUD is one of my favorite features. I think if you drove the F30 335i with summer tires the DHP, Tech Package, Sport trans for a couple of days...
BJ
January 4, 2013, 1:02 pm
Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.
BJ
January 4, 2013, 1:48 pm
January 4, 2013, 3:25 pm
January 4, 2013, 3:36 pm
January 4, 2013, 5:05 pm
January 4, 2013, 5:11 pm
CA
January 4, 2013, 6:01 pm
CA
January 4, 2013, 6:37 pm
CA
January 4, 2013, 6:44 pm
January 4, 2013, 6:46 pm
This is great fun. I have to ask: What do we pair with a Caddy ATS?
January 4, 2013, 7:14 pm
This is great fun. I have to ask: What do we pair with a Caddy ATS?
CA
January 4, 2013, 8:53 pm
CA
January 4, 2013, 9:00 pm
January 4, 2013, 9:12 pm
Edit:
After I posted this I remembered that last summer I was walking by the Ferrari Showroom in Park Ave. and there were several Ferraris parked on the street and roped off. There were security guards and a lot of photographers. I asked what was going on and was told it was a promotional event for a watch company. I don't remember which watch manufacturer it was although I know it was not Girard Perregaux who at one time made "Official" Ferrari watches,
CA
January 4, 2013, 11:51 pm
suddenly ....the thread is becoming a watch and car thread
January 9, 2013, 10:26 pm
Very emtertaining thread. Thanks to all for such a diversity of views.
February 14, 2013, 10:18 am
As the OP, I got one more thing to state:
I love how the F30 looks. May be not the nose, but rest of the car is beautiful in comparison to E90.
However, the interior, I really can't take seriously. It just looks way too 'utilitarian' to me. This is how we dreamed of Honda Civic interiors would look in the future from back in the day. Even with the new 4 series concept, no matter how much I lust after the exterior design, I can't believe they did such an interior design for F30 series.
There is so much cost cutting in the material. I cant believe they used hard materiel, just as you would find them on a Corolla just under the HVAC controls. Same with the center console sides, that's somewhere that you bound to touch more than one would think. I hated the E90 interior design first, but when you live with it for awhile, you realize that the material is high quality (at least comparatively) but only the textures that they used made the material look cheaper.
Some design elements have hard joints where two materials meet and they just look abrupt to me. (Notice the purple arrow). Every time I drive over a bump, I am always checking to see if that joint moves.... just small petpeeves. Bangle wouldn't have done it that way, no matter how much I despite him.
February 14, 2013, 10:36 am
Those points you called out, I don't see them being done in anything other than plastic. Same points I remember being hard plastic in the e90 as well. Those are not touch points, so I don't see the point of taking money and putting soft touch materials there. Bangle would have nothing to do with it either, he was more in charge of he exterior.
February 14, 2013, 1:23 pm
February 14, 2013, 4:13 pm
February 14, 2013, 5:16 pm
Interior is great overall. The worst thing is the glove box. That is a clunky piece of ...
But everytime I open or close the doors and here that thunk, it's all good.
Lighting, ergo, seats, center stack, are well designed.
February 14, 2013, 5:22 pm
February 14, 2013, 5:51 pm
February 14, 2013, 7:08 pm
February 14, 2013, 8:26 pm
LOL, my first car! Luckily I grew out of my "ricey" phase.
February 14, 2013, 10:15 pm
I love how the F30 looks. May be not the nose, but rest of the car is beautiful in comparison to E90.
However, the interior, I really can't take seriously. It just looks way too 'utilitarian' to me. This is how we dreamed of Honda Civic interiors would look in the future from back in the day. Even with the new 4 series concept, no matter how much I lust after the exterior design, I can't believe they did such an interior design for F30 series.
There is so much cost cutting in the material. I cant believe they used hard materiel, just as you would find them on a Corolla just under the HVAC controls. Same with the center console sides, that's somewhere that you bound to touch more than one would think. I hated the E90 interior design first, but when you live with it for awhile, you realize that the material is high quality (at least comparatively) but only the textures that they used made the material look cheaper.
I owned an E93 and an E90 and can tell you definitively that the materials you refer to are identical. In fact, the two touch-points that used to make me sore on long trips in the E90 no longer do so in the F30. My left elbow (I lean it on the window sill) and my left shin (I lean it on the lower door storage pocket) no longer feel bruised after a 5 hour cruise. And it's not because the material is softer; it's because the curvature of the plastic has been adjusted to a more comfortable angle.
And as far as the design being 'utilitarian'? Are you kidding? The E90 interior was about as spartan as it gets, was designed straight out of 1975 with no curves, no flair, no panache. Was as boring as it gets.
The F30's exterior is evolutionary from the E90. The F30's interior is revolutionary. 70% of the difference between the two models is found in the interior. It's remarkably comfortable, functional, and fresh.
BJ
February 14, 2013, 11:32 pm
LOL, my first car! Luckily I grew out of my "ricey" phase.
February 15, 2013, 2:08 am
I owned an E93 and an E90 and can tell you definitively that the materials you refer to are identical. In fact, the two touch-points that used to make me sore on long trips in the E90 no longer do so in the F30. My left elbow (I lean it on the window sill) and my left shin (I lean it on the lower door storage pocket) no longer feel bruised after a 5 hour cruise. And it's not because the material is softer; it's because the curvature of the plastic has been adjusted to a more comfortable angle.
And as far as the design being 'utilitarian'? Are you kidding? The E90 interior was about as spartan as it gets, was designed straight out of 1975 with no curves, no flair, no panache. Was as boring as it gets.
The F30's exterior is evolutionary from the E90. The F30's interior is revolutionary. 70% of the difference between the two models is found in the interior. It's remarkably comfortable, functional, and fresh.
BJ
February 15, 2013, 5:43 am
Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.
You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.
BJ
February 15, 2013, 10:38 am
February 15, 2013, 11:51 am
Looked at / test drove two 2013 328is today, a Melbourne Red with black Dakota, Sport line, Premium and a Modern line Black Saphire with Dakota Saddle Brown.
TL;DR: The F30 is a better sports sedan than the equivalent E90 - and - it is 100% a BMW.
Non-Driving review of the Red 328i Sport:
High quality materials, fit and finish. The Navi screen position is odd at first but not noticed after 30 seconds. The Speedo and tach are smallish, but ok. Don't like silver ring surrounding. No cover to cup holder, but later found it in glove box. Very BMW feel to steering wheel. Mat in trunk is a nice touch. Plastic of covered trunk struts? Fuel door is a bit bigger. Sport line is very attractive - red piping looks sharp.
Cup cover in small net in glove box is good, plus the net is cool. The other small net on back left is also a nice touch. Auto shift lever kinda looks odd. Modern?
The dash and controls canted to driver. Reminds me more of my E46. This is good. The Glove box feels tinny. Ok, No big deal. The In Dash LCD are cool below the gauges. Nice Led lights at top center. Good. Headliner good material weave good. Pirelli Cinturato P7s. Solid disks, Rear disks look smallish. M seats nice. Good support.
Driving review of the black Modern Line:
I test drove the black modern line 328i over a short 1.5 mile course. Excellent power. No noticeable turbo rattle at idle w window open. Great handling. Brakes firm and supportive. Transmission hesitation on spin up, but very very quick to downshift, and it seemed any turbo lag coincided with kickdown for quick reaction. Excellent road feel and steering on normal roads. Compliant suspension.
Car left in normal, not Eco or sport.
Color me impressed.
February 15, 2013, 11:56 am
Some pics.
February 15, 2013, 11:58 am
One more.
February 15, 2013, 11:59 am
February 15, 2013, 1:35 pm
February 15, 2013, 2:17 pm
TL;DR: The F30 is a better sports sedan than the equivalent E90 - and - it is 100% a BMW.
Non-Driving review of the Red 328i Sport:
High quality materials, fit and finish. The Navi screen position is odd at first but not noticed after 30 seconds. The Speedo and tach are smallish, but ok. Don't like silver ring surrounding. No cover to cup holder, but later found it in glove box. Very BMW feel to steering wheel. Mat in trunk is a nice touch. Plastic of covered trunk struts? Fuel door is a bit bigger. Sport line is very attractive - red piping looks sharp.
Cup cover in small net in glove box is good, plus the net is cool. The other small net on back left is also a nice touch. Auto shift lever kinda looks odd. Modern?
The dash and controls canted to driver. Reminds me more of my E46. This is good. The Glove box feels tinny. Ok, No big deal. The In Dash LCD are cool below the gauges. Nice Led lights at top center. Good. Headliner good material weave good. Pirelli Cinturato P7s. Solid disks, Rear disks look smallish. M seats nice. Good support.
Driving review of the black Modern Line:
I test drove the black modern line 328i over a short 1.5 mile course. Excellent power. No noticeable turbo rattle at idle w window open. Great handling. Brakes firm and supportive. Transmission hesitation on spin up, but very very quick to downshift, and it seemed any turbo lag coincided with kickdown for quick reaction. Excellent road feel and steering on normal roads. Compliant suspension.
Car left in normal, not Eco or sport.
Color me impressed.
February 15, 2013, 4:28 pm
Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.
You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.
BJ
I started this thread to discuss about differences between the two in a decent manner. Things that are rarely talked about and what majors reviews and comparisons has not covered.
It seems like these replies of yours, you try to sound ignorant and condescending. How many times have you accused of putting your car on a pedestal, just in this thread alone? This is my last reply on this board towards you. I wish you act a little more decently among these other decent people here.
February 15, 2013, 4:43 pm
I decided to post a few before and after photos comparing changes by BMW and MB. Since MB has yet updated the C Class I used GLK350. Changes in the MB is more drastic. It also seems to go well with its emphasis on luxury, with the retro look.
BMW's changes are not as drastic, but more importantly, it does not make me feel the look is sportier, which should be BMW's emphasis. Instead it tries to look more luxurious, but as evident, MB has this part mastered. They are just better at offering more luxury feel.
February 15, 2013, 4:54 pm
Black ones with real joysticks:
February 15, 2013, 5:24 pm
BJ
February 15, 2013, 6:26 pm
Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.
You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.
BJ
February 15, 2013, 6:48 pm
this is my first BMW, and the only reason why is because i thought the e90's had poor ergonomics, a dated interior, and frankly not as luxurious as their competitors...
That all changed when i sat in the F30. The ultimate combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.
February 15, 2013, 7:02 pm
That all changed when i sat in the F30. The pantultemet combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.
February 15, 2013, 7:23 pm
That all changed when i sat in the F30. The pantultemet combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.
There's this, which some would agree with - If something's the penultimate , then it's the second to last thing in a series.
February 15, 2013, 7:46 pm
Here is an interior picture of a 1980 BMW 320i, which is (was) typical of German auto interiors. They were spartan with very good ergonomics. It is function over form, and is what separated BMW, Porsche and Mercedes from the American and Japanese counterparts.
From many of the posts in this thread, it would appear that the current buyers prefer form over function. I guess I'm wondering what separates German cars like BMWs from the American and Japanese cars today?
February 15, 2013, 7:52 pm
February 15, 2013, 8:00 pm
February 15, 2013, 8:10 pm
My 2012 Porsche Carrera interior that retains the German function over form, IMO. I love this interior layout because it does not get in the way of (complicate) my driving experience.
February 15, 2013, 9:07 pm
^^^ Love the tach in the middle. As it should be.
February 15, 2013, 10:00 pm
BJ
March 30, 2013, 5:17 pm
The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.
The 20% that is different is a big deal:
Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.
Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.
Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.
Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.
Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.
Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.
Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.
Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.
It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.
Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.
Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.
Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.
Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.
BJ
I found this thread because I was trying to figure out why the coupe was such a let down. That 20% difference (mainly engine & transmission) puts the F30 FAR ahead of the E90. Ridiculously far.
March 30, 2013, 5:45 pm
I found this thread because I was trying to figure out why the coupe was such a let down. That 20% difference (mainly engine & transmission) puts the F30 FAR ahead of the E90. Ridiculously far.
First of all, DHP is really nice. Love the different modes in DHP. Never had that on my E90. I think the performance is much better. Not really talking about 0-60, but I'm talking about performance across the entire band 20 to 50, 10 to 40, 30 to 60, etc. It's just much better; especially when in Sport Mode. iDrive is better. HK sound system is much better than the HK in the E90, handling is just as good, rear view camera is a big plus, instrumentation is better. Just about everything is. Most of all, the new 8 speed sport transmission is WAY BETTER than the old 6 speed Steptronic
However, there are 2 things I noticed...
1) Sport Seats. I am getting used to them, but I think I like the regular seats I had in my e90 better. I know. I'm the exception to the rule, and besides, this has nothing to do with the F30 vs the E90 anyway... It's just a matter of seat preference.
2) Steering. After 2 weeks, I think I discovered a scenario in which the steering feels a little vague like some have suggested. It's on straight-aways. If you make a subtle turn to the left or right, you can notice it, but on most roads, I don't notice it that much at all. Overall, I would say the steering is still very good, but maybe not as good as the E90. In addition, I would say that the steering in no way negates the F30 relative to the E90.
June 15, 2013, 4:05 pm
Anyone looking for an ultimate driving machine, F30 is not for you. F30 has lost the great control E90 had (Altough it was not as good as E46, but E90 was still fun). Dampers are too soft and bouncy. There is more body roll than e90.
Good power, good design, great gas mileage, ok materials used inside, nice steering but bit too soft. If I could, I would replace it with an E90 today!!!!
Commenting after owning 4 3-series in last 9 years, and driving 15K miles on current 328i Sports Line.
June 15, 2013, 4:18 pm
Everyone has different definition of a good car, and everyone is looking for something different in a good car. If you are looking for brand name, design, looks, gas mileage, sleek interior, and silky ride, you should get F30.
All I look for in a BMW is power and control. F30 has the power but very little control. On E46 or E90 I could easily make a quick turn at 120mph, but on F30 that would result in killing myself.
If you have the money, buy a F30 and install after market coilovers, then you would have ultimate driving machine.
June 15, 2013, 7:56 pm
The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.
The 20% that is different is a big deal:
BJ
I would have said the E90 was 80% of the F30 since the f30 has that extra 20%
I went from 2010 E90 320i to 2012 F30 320i over here in Australia .. The F30 is a joy to drive .. And I did love my E90!!!
Those extra 20% are fantastic ..
Garyw
June 15, 2013, 9:43 pm
Good power, good design, great gas mileage, ok materials used inside, nice steering but bit too soft. If I could, I would replace it with an E90 today!!!!
Commenting after owning 4 3-series in last 9 years, and driving 15K miles on current 328i Sports Line.
June 15, 2013, 11:46 pm
I never upgraded because they actually seemed so similar, with the deciding factor being that I wasn't fond of the E90's external appearance.
June 16, 2013, 12:42 am
Switch to "sport" and "sport+" on the weekends and one appreciates the fact that the F30 is a multifaceted beast ... Which come alive at the press of a button... I do like it better than my E90 ...
Garyw
June 18, 2013, 6:04 pm
My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.
At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.
It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.
Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!
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June 18, 2013, 6:14 pm
ill stick with getting a e90... its not always needed to have the latest and greatest when the last years or older models look great.. plus you said the new one is 80% of the old one so im convinced
June 18, 2013, 6:20 pm
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June 18, 2013, 6:36 pm
Looks like they might have improved things with the 4 series:
"Beginning with the parameters and components of the 3-series, the chassis of the 4-series has been significantly reworked, BMW says, for added agility. The center of gravity is lower than on any other BMW today, the front section of the car has been stiffened, and the steering and front suspension has been tweaked to generate significantly more direct responses to steering input, as BMW says—a tacit admission that there was room to improve upon the steering of the 3-series."
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news
June 18, 2013, 6:49 pm
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news
It'll be time for some celebration had they said "improved steering feedback."
June 18, 2013, 7:06 pm
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June 18, 2013, 7:09 pm
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June 18, 2013, 7:20 pm
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June 18, 2013, 7:23 pm
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I have driven your e90 328xi. You seem to have an inflated view of that car.
I had auto stop start turned off before delivery. Find other things to complain about.
June 18, 2013, 7:29 pm
I have driven your e90 328xi. You seem to have an inflated view of that car.
I had auto stop start turned off before delivery. Find other things to complain about.
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June 18, 2013, 7:34 pm
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So you are in the F30 forum and I am supposed to congratulate you on spewing your dissapointment in a car that poorly represents the new platform? You ramble about the same silly things like ASS that we have heard for years and have yet to drive a proper handling F30. Great.
Can we shake your hand for enlightening us?
June 18, 2013, 11:27 pm
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June 19, 2013, 6:36 am
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June 19, 2013, 9:57 am
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June 19, 2013, 10:08 am
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June 19, 2013, 10:34 am
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June 19, 2013, 10:40 am
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June 19, 2013, 10:44 am
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June 19, 2013, 10:46 am
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The point is, in my opinion, X1 (with xdrive to have the good old steering) and actually with the 4 cylinder engine (to get the new 8 speed transmission) felt much more "real" than any F30 I tried. But I never tested anything with m-sport, so can't comment about that.
June 19, 2013, 11:29 am
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June 19, 2013, 11:33 am
The X1 is indeed quite perky and has more of that traditional BMW feel...except for the unavailability of 3 pedals. Had it been offered with a manual, it would have merited more serious consideration from me. Once I got over the derpy front end design.
June 19, 2013, 2:29 pm
June 19, 2013, 2:43 pm
June 19, 2013, 3:10 pm
LOL.
If I'm not mistaken, the weight actually is not that much different from the current xdrive 3 series. And certainly x1 is not heavier than the wagon.
June 19, 2013, 3:22 pm
June 19, 2013, 4:24 pm
I've got a 2011 335i, and my wife has a 2013 328i Sport which she got in December.
I LOVE the feel and handling of her car, particularly in Sport mode. Makes my car feel like a luxury sedan. When I first drove a car with that new 8 speed shifter, I was turned off. The new shifter is growing on me, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of the shifter in my 335i, and my previous 330i. Although I'm one that always felt you should move the stick forward to up shift...BMW is sticking with this particular behavior.
I have a 2013 M-Sport that's "on the boat" right now...can't wait!
June 19, 2013, 5:00 pm
I LOVE the feel and handling of her car, particularly in Sport mode. Makes my car feel like a luxury sedan. When I first drove a car with that new 8 speed shifter, I was turned off. The new shifter is growing on me, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of the shifter in my 335i, and my previous 330i. Although I'm one that always felt you should move the stick forward to up shift...BMW is sticking with this particular behavior.
I have a 2013 M-Sport that's "on the boat" right now...can't wait!
I don't really like the standard 8 speed shifter, but I think the sports automatic 8 speed shifter looks so much better and gives a better grip as well.