Entry level F30 320i heads to the US - Starting at $33,445

by Tim Jones on January 14, 2013, 9:34 am
Entry level F30 320i

BMW opened the latest chapter in the 3 Series story as it announced the new 2013 BMW 320i Sedan for the US market. Constructed with the near-perfect 50:50 balance afforded by BMW rear-wheel drive and priced from $33,445 (including $895 Destination & Handling), the new BMW 320i packs a content-rich punch in the marketplace for premium compact sport sedans. Sporting a 180-horsepower TwinPower Turbo 4-cylinder engine, the new BMW 320i Sedan goes on sale in late-Spring 2013. Along with the new 320i Sedan, the BMW 320i xDrive Sedan featuring BMW's intelligent all-wheel drive system will also be available from $35,445 (including $895 Destination & Handling). The broad palette of standard equipment includes Bluetooth smartphone integration and BMW's Auto Start-Stop function.

2013 F30 320i US spec

Owners will appreciate the incredibly flexible 8-speed automatic transmission, while drivers seeking maximum involvement may opt for a traditional 6-speed manual on the non-xDrive 320i. 17-inch BMW light alloy wheels are standard on the 320i and 320i xDrive, with two different styles of 18-inch light alloy wheels available in combination with Sport Package.

The engine of the new BMW 320i Sedan is BMW's award-winning 2.0-liter TwinPower Turbo 4-cylinder engine, rated in the 320i at 180 horsepower at 5,000 rpm and 200 lb-ft of torque from 1,250 rpm - 4,500 rpm. 0-60 mph acceleration for the 320i Sedan is estimated to require only 7.1 seconds with either transmission choice. Top speed is an electronically-limited 130 mph. The class-leading fuel efficiency of the BMW 328i Sedan is expected to be sustained by the new 320i Sedan, meaning preliminary estimates for the 320i with 6-speed manual transmission are 22 City / 34 Highway, while 23 City / 33 Highway are estimated for the 320i equipped with 8-speed automatic. The 320i xDrive model is expected to achieve 22 City / 33 Highway (Note: all estimates are preliminary at publication).

Engine Comparison Details: 320i vs 328i

Most of BMW's leading ConnectedDrive elements and vehicle versatility options from the BMW 328i and 335i siblings will be available on the new 320i. These include the aforementioned 8-speed automatic transmission plus BMW Assist telematics services, BMW Apps, heated front and rear seats, heated steering wheel, rear-view camera, xenon adaptive headlights, moonroof, split-folding rear seat, and BMW's Navigation system.

BMW 320i 180 horsepower

Befitting The Ultimate Driving Machine, a Sport Package is available for both the 320i and 320i xDrive. For the 320i the package includes 18-inch light-alloy wheels with summer tires and increased top speed limiter, sport seats, M sport suspension, M steering wheel and anthracite headliner. All-season tires with 130 mph speed limiter may be specified in place of the performance tires. For the 320i xDrive the Sport Package includes 18-inch light-alloy wheels with all-season tires, sport seats, M steering wheel, and anthracite headliner. Summer tires with increased top speed limiter can be ordered in place of the all-season tires.

Several other equipment packages are also available for the 320i Sedan, including Cold Weather Package, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, and Lighting Package. The full complement of exterior colors from the 328i Sedan is available, with exception of Estoril Blue Metallic which requires M Sport Line (unavailable on 320i). 320i buyers will also enjoy a choice of standard Leatherette or optional Dakota Leather upholstery, both in a choice of Venetian Beige or Black.

F20 320i sport package

BMW's innovative 8-speed automatic gearbox – which was a first in the segment when introduced last year on the 328i and 335i Sedans – opens up a whole new level of driving experience. Compact and exceptionally efficient, it allows the new BMW 320i to match or outperform models fitted with the standard six-speed manual gearbox in terms of fuel efficiency (actual results vary depending on drive cycle). The new 8-speed automatic brings together shift comfort, dynamic performance and efficiency of the highest order, making it the perfect partner for the new 320i sedan's dynamic potential.

As components of the BMW EfficientDynamics technology line-up, the Auto Start-Stop function, Brake Energy Regeneration, and need-based operation of ancillary components (including an on-demand air conditioning compressor) also play their part in reducing fuel consumption. Added to which, the Driving Dynamics Control switch, which allows the driver to choose between Comfort, Sport, and ECO PRO mode, gives both models the potential to further improve these figures. ECO PRO mode helps drivers maximize fuel economy through their driving style, thereby enabling them to increase the distance they can travel between visits to the pumps.
2013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 12013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 22013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 32013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 42013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 52013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 62013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 72013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 82013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 92013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 102013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 112013-BMW-320i-NAIAS 12


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596 responses to Entry level F30 320i heads to the US - Starting at $33,445

tim330i commented:
January 14, 2013, 11:31 am

Stay tuned for more pictures after the press conference!
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 11:51 am

Just what BMW needed was another model!
kobechrome commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:01 pm

Wonder what the reason is for the 320 - the 328 and 335 serve the low and high end 3 series models.
JoeFromPA commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:03 pm

Interesting that they are moving the U.S. F30 down market some more. I woulda thought the 4-door 1 series would accomplish that.

I don't really understand this - a de-tuned 2.0 liter that gets the same fuel economy? Really?
_Vida_ commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:03 pm

Interesting. I wonder how big the market is for these
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:06 pm

Where will the rumored 2 Series fit?
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
Interesting. I wonder how big the market is for these
What's the base price for the "no line" 328i?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobechrome View Post
Wonder what the reason is for the 320 - the 328 and 335 serve the low and high end 3 series models.
It's $4,000 cheaper.

That buys BMW many more customers who couldn't afford the base 328i and/or allows someone who really wanted a 328i with a lot of option packages to step down in engine class and accomplish that goal. Instead of taking a 328i and feeling forced to put no Line on the car or skip something like the technology package, now you can just cut the horsepower and keep all the goodies.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
Interesting. I wonder how big the market is for these
This will be BMW's best-selling 3 Series within two years.

Might also signal the end of the 335i completely. The 328i is only a hair less performance positive than the 335i right now is anyway. The 328i can become the top-of-the-line, the 320i the new bottom.

BJ
namelessman commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:20 pm

For $3-4k less the 320i can grab lots of sales from competitors in the targeted range. I wonder if the 320i engine is a de-tuned N20/N26, if so, a chip can easily bump it up to 328i HP/torque.
jfox335i commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This will be BMW's best-selling 3 Series within two years.

Might also signal the end of the 335i completely. The 328i is only a hair less performance positive than the 335i right now is anyway. The 328i can become the top-of-the-line, the 320i the new bottom.

BJ
The 335 isn't going anywhere.

The 328 doesn't touch the 335 in regards to performance. I don't care about 60 times and the quarter, however in regards to driving feel, the 328 was laggy and weak, which was the primary reason I went with the 335 over the 328.

This model doesn't make much sense to me either, 4K drop for losing 60HP? I don't get it, but I understand BJs point. It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
chasfh commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:22 pm

If it were a shorter car, like 175-179 in length, I would have strongly considered waiting to get this one. As it is, according to this, the length is still 4,636mm, or 182.5", so that wouldn't interest me as much.
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:26 pm

Yeah, they'll sell a lot of these. No doubt. No doubt at all.

Contrary to what a lot of people on the 'fest believe, a 328 is a real financial stretch for most people. This opens up an entirely new market segment for would be BMW buyers, a real huge market segment...
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
The 335 isn't going anywhere.

The 328 doesn't touch the 335 in regards to performance. I don't care about 60 times and the quarter, however in regards to driving feel, the 328 was laggy and weak, which was the primary reason I went with the 335 over the 328.

This model doesn't make much sense to me either, 4K drop for losing 60HP? I don't get it, but I understand BJs point. It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
Regarding the 335i, your guess is as good as mine. One way to look at this is that the 4 Series is a step up line as well. So perhaps the 335i will only be available in the 4 and not the 3. You never know.

$4,000 is a big deal as is $33,000 price point. Cadillac has its Buick. Acura has its Honda. Lexus has its Toyota. BMW has no step-down brand so it has to do the heavy lifting itself. What I thought might be the 2 Series sedan may never happen now. What would that cost, $25,000?

Very interesting indeed.

BJ
Alpine300ZHP commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's $4,000 cheaper.

That buys BMW many more customers who couldn't afford the base 328i and/or allows someone who really wanted a 328i with a lot of option packages to step down in engine class and accomplish that goal. Instead of taking a 328i and feeling forced to put no Line on the car or skip something like the technology package, now you can just cut the horsepower and keep all the goodies.

BJ
THIS. I agree with BJ and I think BMW knows that it is leaving a major market open that is being stolen by MBZ with the C250. The 328 no line is about 3k more than the C250 sport. I see a lot of C250's on the road and the reason is the 399 lease payment with only a couple grand down. The 320i will be closer to the C250 in price and power and help BMW make a comparable low teaser lease payment to get people in the door. The 3 series has gone upmarket and I think has cut off some people from being able to afford a BMW. This is BMW's answer to that problem and makes me think the 1 series sedan is not coming to the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This will be BMW's best-selling 3 Series within two years.

Might also signal the end of the 335i completely. The 328i is only a hair less performance positive than the 335i right now is anyway. The 328i can become the top-of-the-line, the 320i the new bottom.

BJ
Agree with BJ again (can this be happening ). It is all about the lease payment for most people and this car will be BMW's new low downpayment or no downpayment 399 a month car, or maybe 299 a month if they residualize it right, designed to be sold on volume as a no line vehicle. I bet this one will only be available as a no line and sport line. To get modern, luxury or m sport you will probably have to bump up to the 328/335. Now we have an F30 for E46 325i money, larger body and same power plus better fuel economy. It will not be hard for BMW dealers to sell this thing to the average badge whore. If I had a friend debating a Honda or Toyota product I would tell them spend 5 grand more and get the BMW if only for the safety aspect of it. The 335i is not going away, but I predict it will be reborn as the 340i with a bump in power to around 330-350hp so there is a significant gap between the 328 and the 340.
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
If it were a shorter car, like 175-179 in length, I would have strongly considered waiting to get this one. As it is, according to this, the length is still 4,636mm, or 182.5", so that wouldn't interest me as much.
Well, if it were a shorter length, then it wouldn't be a 3.

They would have instead introduced a 1 series sedan, and by the way, I'm really surprised they didn't and really surprised they're putting out a 320i instead.
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
The 335i is not going away, but I predict it will be reborn as the 340i with a bump in power to around 330-350hp so there is a significant gap between the 328 and the 340.
A 340 is inevitable.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
A 340 is inevitable.
True..we already have the 640 and 740. I suspect the 340 will debut with the new 4 series coupe and then transition to the 3 series and the other BMW models after that. The 35i motor will be gone in 2 years across the lineup. Also expect we will see an x1 and maybe x3 2.0 as well (if the 320 goes over well).
_Vida_ commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:39 pm

So besides the C250, what would be competing with the 320i? Higher end Accords maybe?
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
True..we already have the 640 and 740. I suspect the 340 will debut with the new 4 series coupe and then transition to the 3 series and the other BMW models after that. The 35i motor will be gone in 2 years across the lineup. Also expect we will see an x1 and maybe x3 2.0 as well (if the 320 goes over well).
I predict there will be a 320, a 328 (or 330), and a 340. Also a 528 (or 530) and a 540.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Well, if it were a shorter length, then it wouldn't be a 3.

They would have instead introduced a 1 series sedan, and by the way, I'm really surprised they didn't and really surprised they're putting out a 320i instead.
Maybe they did not want to "cheapen" the brand by bringing over a 1 series sedan. To sell well a 120i would have to be in the low to mid 20's price wise. I think BMW does not want to dip into VW pricing category so low 30's may be as low as they want to go and a 1 series sedan would rot at 30-32k MSRP. The 3 series will be an instant hit in that price range and give people a very tempting alternative to a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
So besides the C250, what would be competing with the 320i? Higher end Accords maybe?
Acura TSX and TLX comes to mind.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
So besides the C250, what would be competing with the 320i? Higher end Accords maybe?
I think the 320i is a directly aimed at the C250. Those C250's sell REALLY well because they are very low lease payment cars. My local benz dealer GSM is a neighbor of mine and he told me that they fly off the lot at MSRP because he can do 399 a month at MSRP.
Alpine300ZHP commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
I predict there will be a 320, a 328 (or 330), and a 340. Also a 528 (or 530) and a 540.
Exactly. The need has now come for the 3 series to have 3 engine choices which the 5 has had since I can remember.
Mark K commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:56 pm

Very interesting thread. I think this might be the only country where consumers complain about having more choices (see some posts above).

By the way, there will be minimum 4 engine choices when new diesel specs are made public. Great time to be shopping for a new BMW 3 series.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Bimmer App
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This will be BMW's best-selling 3 Series within two years.BJ
I agree, the 320i will sell at least as well as the 328. There is a significant segment of this market that will be perfectly happy with a 180 hp/200 lb-ft tq motor, especially with all that torque available at 1,250 rpms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
For $3-4k less the 320i can grab lots of sales from competitors in the targeted range.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yeah, they'll sell a lot of these. No doubt. No doubt at all.

Contrary to what a lot of people on the 'fest believe, a 328 is a real financial stretch for most people. This opens up an entirely new market segment for would be BMW buyers, a real huge market segment...
Bingo! Right on the money! (pun intended )

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Might also signal the end of the 335i completely. The 328i is only a hair less performance positive than the 335i right now is anyway. The 328i can become the top-of-the-line, the 320i the new bottom.

BJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
The 335 isn't going anywhere.

The 328 doesn't touch the 335 in regards to performance. I don't care about 60 times and the quarter, however in regards to driving feel, the 328 was laggy and weak, which was the primary reason I went with the 335 over the 328.

This model doesn't make much sense to me either, 4K drop for losing 60HP? I don't get it, but I understand BJs point. It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Regarding the 335i, your guess is as good as mine. One way to look at this is that the 4 Series is a step up line as well. So perhaps the 335i will only be available in the 4 and not the 3. You never know.

$4,000 is a big deal as is $33,000 price point. Cadillac has its Buick. Acura has its Honda. Lexus has its Toyota. BMW has no step-down brand so it has to do the heavy lifting itself. What I thought might be the 2 Series sedan may never happen now. What would that cost, $25,000?

Very interesting indeed.

BJ
The six isn't going anywhere. The 3er is still the top of the market performance, sport sedan and there is a significant segment of that market that wants the six cylinder motor.


-------------------------------------------------
I would say this is a good move for BMW. And I'm thinking there is a possibility this could open the door to a 1er sedan without a six cylinder. I can envision a 1er sedan offering the 120 and the 128 and no 135.

I'm sure this motor will also make its way into the X1.

It could also enable BMW to bring the Z4 back "down market" and into more affordable territory. BMW took the Z4 up market considerably with the new model and it has had a pretty negative effect on sales. There are a lot of roadster buyers who would be satisfied with this new motor in a Z4 at a lower price.
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 12:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
A 330i and a 340i are inevitable.
Fixed.
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Stay tuned for more pictures after the press conference!
Tim, would you ask if this car and the coupe are going to be at the Chicago Auto Show next month, please?
emtrey commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:02 pm

This is disgusting. They will offer the M sport steering wheel on this "entry level" car BUT won't even sell me one for my 335 sportline ( I have tried). I have owned 9 BMWs and never been so disappointed in their control freak positioning of these cars.

Come on BMW----be true to your core customers and STOP trying to compete with every single car that comes out near your product's market.
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobechrome View Post
Wonder what the reason is for the 320 - the 328 and 335 serve the low and high end 3 series models.
At $38,000 base, a 328i is no longer "low" end.

Therefore, a 320i at $33,000. That puts it right where the "new" meat is. Consider this: A BMW 3-Series cheaper than an Honda Accord (V6, though).

And by the way, I would bet that the 180hp are at the wheels. This is like a 210hp/220lbs-ft engine.
Michael Schott commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobechrome View Post
Wonder what the reason is for the 320 - the 328 and 335 serve the low and high end 3 series models.
The base F30 328 is now almost $37K. That's hardly a "base" model. However, 180 hp is weak. 200 would have been much better.
brkf commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
Interesting. I wonder how big the market is for these
Huge. Not like most 328i buyers get the car to do 0-60 sprints.
_Vida_ commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:25 pm

Seems like we're going to see a ton of F30s on the road by year's end
tim330i commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:28 pm

More pictures of the 2013 F30 320i posted to the Bimmerfest gallery here - http://www.bimmerfest.com/bmw-photos...MW-320i-NAIAS/
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
Seems like we're going to see a ton of F30s on the road by year's end
Yeah, and pretty soon 320i folks will dominate this forum.
lqaddict commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:35 pm

BMW needs 335i in the segment to keep the competition on its toes, sorry a 328i cannot touch G37 performance, but can easily shut G25's.
The same with the ill fated ATS, MB C-class 250/350, the re-badged Toyota's IS 250/350. The only outsiders are VW group in this segment - A4 is a 328 rival, and the S4 is more positioned towards the M division competition.
pilotman commented:
January 14, 2013, 1:38 pm

1) will you be able to somewhat affordably and easily "chip" this engine?

2) if the base price is $33k with bluetooth, etc standard....and nobody (at least on this board) pays MSRP for a BMW....what will deals look like?

For example, what will a $500-$1,000 over European delivery deal look like on this car......$29-$30k out the door?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 2:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
BMW needs 335i in the segment to keep the competition on its toes, sorry a 328i cannot touch G37 performance, but can easily shut G25's.
The same with the ill fated ATS, MB C-class 250/350, the re-badged Toyota's IS 250/350. The only outsiders are VW group in this segment - A4 is a 328 rival, and the S4 is more positioned towards the M division competition.
First, the 328 can get very close to G37 performance, not to be a magazine racer but this does give a good foundation-much closer than the G25:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...an_comparison/


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

So the 328 is within a couple tenths of the G37, but seconds faster in most measures compared to the G25.


Don't forget, the ATS brags about the lower starting price thanks to the 2.5L. So now BMW gets to bring the 320 in which is as fast or faster at the same price. The 320 is already sold in other countries so it's kind of a no brainer to bring it here. It's just a detuned N20.
jusmills commented:
January 14, 2013, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
I predict there will be a 320, a 328 (or 330), and a 340. Also a 528 (or 530) and a 540.
I agree. Looks like some naming convention changes are coming.

120i (Base car), 130i (essentially the 128i), 1M (I'm thinking they drop the 135i as too much competition for the 3, low end 4 series price/sales)
220i (Base car), 230i (coupe 128i), M2?
320i (Base car), 328i => 330i, 335i => 340i, M3
430i (which would be the turbo 4), and 440i (which would be the turbo 6), M4?
528i => 530i, 530i => 540i, 550i, M5 stays the same
640i, 650i, M6 stay the same
740i, 750i, 760i stay the same

What do you guys think?
elistan commented:
January 14, 2013, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
So besides the C250, what would be competing with the 320i? Higher end Accords maybe?
FWD Audi A4? Starting price is $32,500.
And it undercuts the 200hp IS250.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
FWD Audi A4? Starting price is $32,500.
And it undercuts the 200hp IS250.
Yep.

So we now have:

TSX 2.4
Audi A4 FWD CVT
ATS 2.5
IS250
C250

The 320 will be pretty competitive with all of them. Do not get hung up on the 180hp rating, willing to bet it easily does 180+ to the wheels.

This is not much of a gamble at all for BMW. The G25 lasted only a year. BMW already makes and sells the 320 elsewhere. This might also explain the $350 price increase on the 328.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 2:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Yep.

So we now have:

TSX 2.4
Audi A4 FWD CVT
ATS 2.5
IS250
C250

The 320 will be pretty competitive with all of them. Do not get hung up on the 180hp rating, willing to bet it easily does 180+ to the wheels. This is not much of a gamble at all for BMW. The G25 lasted only a year. BMW already makes and sells the 320 elsewhere. This might also explain the $350 price increase on the 328.
If it did 180 HP at the wheels, BMW would have listed the HP much higher at the flywheel. Why would you think this is so?
pilotman commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
If it did 180 HP at the wheels, BMW would have listed the HP much higher at the flywheel. Why would you think this is so?
I think because BMW, along with others, have often underrated the BHP figures.

Can't wait to see the European Delivery invoice pricing on this car.

What will lease prices look like??? (CHEAP)
m8o commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:05 pm

With owners of 328i often seeing hiway mpgs in the low to mid (if not high) 30s, why would anyone be thinking about this?
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
If it did 180 HP at the wheels, BMW would have listed the HP much higher at the flywheel. Why would you think this is so?
The 328i puts ~240hp out at the wheels.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
If it did 180 HP at the wheels, BMW would have listed the HP much higher at the flywheel. Why would you think this is so?
Because of experience with the N20.

This 320 is detuned, but has nearly identical hardware, it's the exhaust and DME tune.

The N20 328 dyno's it's crank HP at the wheels, I would bet the de-tuned version does the same.

BMW likely releases crank ratings on FI engines in the worst case scenario, like heat soaked.

Edmunds.com dyno'd the ATS 2.0 and the 328 N20 on the same dyno, both manuals. One rated 272 crank, the other 240. The N20 made 1-2hp more to the wheels. Does not mean GM overrated the 2.0T, in fact it's SAE verified. It's that BMW is excessively cautious.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8o View Post
With owners of 328i often seeing hiway mpgs in the low to mid (if not high) 30s, why would anyone be thinking about this?
The person thinking $33k and a $299 lease are within budget and that $37k and $329 are not.

This is not so much a car for people on this forum, it's the numbers shoppers and the people who would consider the IS250, ATS 2.5, A4 BASE CVT etc.
Tirpitz commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:10 pm

This is a smart move by BMW. I bought an X1 because it was in my price bracket. Though I tried mightily there was no way I could get a 328 configured with the things I wanted at anything near the price I paid for the X1. A 320 would have let me get the new F30 technologies while keeping the price affordable for me. That isn't to say that I still wouldn't have bought the X1 instead because of the cargo advantages and the extra horsepower but it would have made me think about it.

If I wasn't leaning wagon I would not be in a BMW today because of the price of the 328. Perhaps I'd be driving a TSX or even the top end new Accord.
JoeFromPA commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:13 pm

Now maybe it's just me, but the pictures of the interior of the 320i look like lower quality interior materials.

This makes me wonder if BMW is going to strip the 3-series a bit beyond just a detuned n26. Will it have less sound deadening, cheaper materials, etc. (i.e. the 1-series)
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Now maybe it's just me, but the pictures of the interior of the 320i look like lower quality interior materials.

This makes me wonder if BMW is going to strip the 3-series a bit beyond just a detuned n26. Will it have less sound deadening, cheaper materials, etc. (i.e. the 1-series)
It probably will have what Mercedes refers to "Text" seat surfaces (like vinyl). That holds up well and usually looks very good.
sr5959 commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:17 pm

I think this 320i will be a massive success. I have a 328i baseline in Alpine White, so exterior-wise the cheapest F30 available. Trust me most people love it and I get loads of compliments on it. I have a few options that bumped the price up but I've always thought that a stripper with no options is a fantastic deal esp. bearing in mind the free maintenance and discounts. If this 320i will be available lease or buy for a few bucks more than an Accord or Camry people will be all over it. Power-wise 180 is also enough for most people.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Now maybe it's just me, but the pictures of the interior of the 320i look like lower quality interior materials.

This makes me wonder if BMW is going to strip the 3-series a bit beyond just a detuned n26. Will it have less sound deadening, cheaper materials, etc. (i.e. the 1-series)
I doubt it.
pilotman commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The person thinking $33k and a $299 lease are within budget and that $37k and $329 are not.

This is not so much a car for people on this forum, it's the numbers shoppers and the people who would consider the IS250, ATS 2.5, A4 BASE CVT etc.
how can you lease a base, $37k 328 for $329 a month, unless you are making a huge cap cost reduction?

The 328 is a $40k car.

This 320 is a $33,455 car, INCLUDING the $900 destination fee, with bluetooth std.....

Paying $1,000 over invoice will put this in Toyota Camry land, and will render the 3 series far more "less special" than it already is.

Literally anybody could afford a $30k out the door stripper, brand new real deal BMW.
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Now maybe it's just me, but the pictures of the interior of the 320i look like lower quality interior materials.

This makes me wonder if BMW is going to strip the 3-series a bit beyond just a detuned n26. Will it have less sound deadening, cheaper materials, etc. (i.e. the 1-series)
It's just you. Materials will be exactly the same. They build these cars on the same production line.
pilotman commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It probably will have what Mercedes refers to "Text" seat surfaces (like vinyl). That holds up well and usually looks very good.
it has the exact same leatherette as in the other models, and can be ordered with Dakota leather as an option.

Can't imagine there would be less 'sound proofing' etc....comes off the same line, same body shell, same warranty, same prepaid maintenance, etc.

Just different engine. Dashboard, doors, everything should be identical other than engine and of course options.

Could order one of these with some wheels, xenons, manual transmission at $1k over invoice makes this competitive with a loaded Honda Accord.

But you still get the cachet, maintenance, service and dealership experience.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
how can you lease a base, $37k 328 for $329 a month, unless you are making a huge cap cost reduction?

The 328 is a $40k car.

This 320 is a $33,455 car, INCLUDING the $900 destination fee, with bluetooth std.....

Paying $1,000 over invoice will put this in Toyota Camry land, and will render the 3 series far more "less special" than it already is.

Literally anybody could afford a $30k out the door stripper, brand new real deal BMW.
We have the NY Times here, as well as dealer adverts in the tri-state area that all have base-no line cars with a couple of options with $40-42k MSRPs for $329 a month.
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It probably will have what Mercedes refers to "Text" seat surfaces (like vinyl). That holds up well and usually looks very good.
That's MBTex. Their version of leatherette. Much more widely used. Virtually impossible to get a C Class with actual leather without a custom order. They use it extensively in the E Class and their SUVs, too. And because of the name, MBTex, most Merc buyers don't even know they don't have leather. Heck, I even had one of their product specialists insist to me that MBTex was some special kind of leather for Texas cars (at a Texas car show).
pilotman commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
We have the NY Times here, as well as dealer adverts in the tri-state area that all have base-no line cars with a couple of options with $40-42k MSRPs for $329 a month.
true, but with a substantial cap cost reduction, and that's only 10,000 miles a year, hardly a good deal....run a similar deal on a $33,000 car instead of a $42,000 car and it will be $239 a month....

to drive a BMW....


$329*/month for 36 months. $1,500 Lease/APR Credit and $750 Loyalty Cash included in payment.




Vehicle Registered outside N.Y.
• $329 First months payment
• $2,750 Down payment
• $0 Security Deposit
• $725 Acquisition fee
• $3,804 Cash due at signing




Vehicle Registered in N.Y.
• $329 First months payment
• $2,750 Down payment
• $0 Security deposit
• $725 Acquisition fee
• $3,804 Cash due at signing
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
true, but with a substantial cap cost reduction, and that's only 10,000 miles a year, hardly a good deal....run a similar deal on a $33,000 car instead of a $42,000 car and it will be $279 a month....

to drive a BMW....


$329*/month for 36 months. $1,500 Lease/APR Credit and $750 Loyalty Cash included in payment.




Vehicle Registered outside N.Y.
• $329 First months payment
• $2,750 Down payment
• $0 Security Deposit
• $725 Acquisition fee
• $3,804 Cash due at signing




Vehicle Registered in N.Y.
• $329 First months payment
• $2,750 Down payment
• $0 Security deposit
• $725 Acquisition fee
• $3,804 Cash due at signing
I made no aspersions to it being a good deal. But fact is, the ATS and G27 make a good case for themselves with lower starting prices and leases at $299 a month. BMW since the launch of the F30 bumped the price by over $1000 and now again another $350. The 320 allows to snag numbers buyers.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 3:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8o View Post
With owners of 328i often seeing hiway mpgs in the low to mid (if not high) 30s, why would anyone be thinking about this?
Reality Check:

While Bimmerfest would lead you to believe that the roads are filled with 28 year old 335i M-Sport owners in their Estoril Blue F30's, the real world is something very different.

The typical 3 Series driver is a 48 year old. She's 50% female. 60% of them are leasing. 90% are driving vehicles without Sport line or sport anything. 80% are 328i's. And with the average at 48 years old, for every 29 year old male enthusiast there's a 75 year old female using the car to hit the beauty salon.

So the reason "why would anyone be thinking about this" is because the typical 3 Series driver has to ditch important options for the sake of hitting a monthly budget. You see a $349 car advertised on TV. You come in. You add a few options. Suddenly you're at $479. Then you're out the door, off to Audi and off to Acura.

The one thing BMW won't let you trade out of in their most affordable Sedan is the powerplant. The 328i is a beast, extremely powerful. Some might say it's overkill. Certainly a 75 year old female wouldn't notice if you trimmed off 50 HP, might even appreciate it. Oh, and she can save $4,000? And then add the Premium package or the Technology package? Touchdown.

BJ
lqaddict commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
First, the 328 can get very close to G37 performance, not to be a magazine racer but this does give a good foundation-much closer than the G25:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...an_comparison/


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

So the 328 is within a couple tenths of the G37, but seconds faster in most measures compared to the G25.


Don't forget, the ATS brags about the lower starting price thanks to the 2.5L. So now BMW gets to bring the 320 in which is as fast or faster at the same price. The 320 is already sold in other countries so it's kind of a no brainer to bring it here. It's just a detuned N20.
Exactly, close but not quite, that's where 335 closes the gap and comes on top.
Infiniti answer is the new IPL that will feature a turbocharged V6 powerplant - I don't think they target the M market with that but rather 335 market.
lqaddict commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Now maybe it's just me, but the pictures of the interior of the 320i look like lower quality interior materials.

This makes me wonder if BMW is going to strip the 3-series a bit beyond just a detuned n26. Will it have less sound deadening, cheaper materials, etc. (i.e. the 1-series)
It does look cheap in the shots, however when I was in Germany this past fall I was put in a 1-series rental with cloth upholstery, in 2009 I rented a 318d that had a cloth upholstery.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Exactly, close but not quite, that's where 335 closes the gap and comes on top.
Infiniti answer is the new IPL that will feature a turbocharged V6 powerplant - I don't think they target the M market with that but rather 335 market.
The interesting thing is, the gap between the 328 and G37 is SMALLER than the gap between the 328 and the 335. So that says to me the 328 has a pretty convincing engine for a base drivetrain. The G25 was DOA.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:30 pm

Hope this delivers outstanding gas milage because by the time you select a couple packages and two or three options you're looking the price of a 328i
lqaddict commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The interesting thing is, the gap between the 328 and G37 is SMALLER than the gap between the 328 and the 335. So that says to me the 328 has a pretty convincing engine for a base drivetrain. The G25 was DOA.
I am not arguing that, the 2009 comparison you posted is from ... well 2009.
It will be interesting to see what BMW will do for upcoming 4-series and future 3-series.
Anyway, looking farther it appears that IPL will target the M crowd if it is to be believed a 3.7 twin-turbo V6 with 530HP is going to be placed in its heart - that's the GT-R territory, and they will directly compete with that, M division, AMG, etc.
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Hope this delivers outstanding gas milage because by the time you select a couple packages and two or three options you're looking the price of a 328i
huh?? No matter what you add to it it will be $4,000 less than an equivalently equipped 328.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
I am not arguing that, the 2009 comparison you posted is from ... well 2009.
It will be interesting to see what BMW will do for upcoming 4-series and future 3-series.
Anyway, looking farther it appears that IPL will target the M crowd if it is to be believed a 3.7 twin-turbo V6 with 530HP is going to be placed in its heart - that's the GT-R territory, and they will directly compete with that, M division, AMG, etc.
I had the 2009 test as it was the latest one found for the G37- they really have not done anything to the G aside from the upgraded automatic. The latest test was against the F30 but it was the G25 which came in 7th while the F30 328 came in first.

As of now, the IPL is overpriced and offers no real power gains. Lets hope the IPL is like you said, a de-tuned GTR-maybe even with a manual trans offered!


A couple of my favorite cars in my ownership history were Nissan products('95 300ZX and '89 Maxima SE 5mt) so I always hope for good cars out of them.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
That's MBTex. Their version of leatherette. Much more widely used. Virtually impossible to get a C Class with actual leather without a custom order. They use it extensively in the E Class and their SUVs, too. And because of the name, MBTex, most Merc buyers don't even know they don't have leather. Heck, I even had one if their product specialists insist to me the MBTex was some special kind of leather for Texas cars (at a Texas car show).
That's it. We had MBTex in our 1979 MB 300D and it wore like iron. The only times when I wished we had leather was during the summer months when I would sweat driving down to the NJ Shore on the weekends. I ended up putting fitted genuine sheepskin covers on the front seats and they did the job perfectly.

My 1979 320i had material seats that also held up extremely well.
dtc100 commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Reality Check:

While Bimmerfest would lead you to believe that the roads are filled with 28 year old 335i M-Sport owners in their Estoril Blue F30's, the real world is something very different.

The typical 3 Series driver is a 48 year old. She's 50% female. 60% of them are leasing. 90% are driving vehicles without Sport line or sport anything. 80% are 328i's. And with the average at 48 years old, for every 29 year old male enthusiast there's a 75 year old female using the car to hit the beauty salon.

So the reason "why would anyone be thinking about this" is because the typical 3 Series driver has to ditch important options for the sake of hitting a monthly budget. You see a $349 car advertised on TV. You come in. You add a few options. Suddenly you're at $479. Then you're out the door, off to Audi and off to Acura.

The one thing BMW won't let you trade out of in their most affordable Sedan is the powerplant. The 328i is a beast, extremely powerful. Some might say it's overkill. Certainly a 75 year old female wouldn't notice if you trimmed off 50 HP, might even appreciate it. Oh, and she can save $4,000? And then add the Premium package or the Technology package? Touchdown.

BJ
I think 320i is here to pull that 48 average age down. Most younger buyers into job market not too long ago cannot afford the payment on a $40k+ 3 series, BMW does not want to lose out to the competitions in that demographic of 20 to 30 year-olds.

The 320i looks no different than the 328i or 335i. Very soon BJ you need to increase the size of your L328i badge, or risk being laughed at by new college grads.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That's it. We had MBTex in our 1979 MB 300D and it wore like iron. The only times when I wished we had leather was during the summer months when I would sweat driving down to the NJ Shore on the weekends. I ended up putting fitted genuine sheepskin covers on the front seats and they did the job perfectly.

My 1979 320i had material seats that also held up extremely well.
MBTex is just a TM'd term for their vinyl, a name that is likely only a few years old. VW is called V-Tex.

Some other euro companies name their vinyl too. Volvo I think even has a marketing name for their cloth lol.
Chris90 commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:46 pm

This is good news, it could mean BMW is moving the US more like Europe where you get lots of choice.

Anyone know what they took out to save $4000? Can't be just a detune.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
This is good news, it could mean BMW is moving the US more like Europe where you get lots of choice.

Anyone know what they took out to save $4000? Can't be just a detune.
I think I read somewhere smaller brakes, but that may be in other countries. I also see the exhaust is different.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
MBTex is just a TM'd term for their vinyl, a name that is likely only a few years old. VW is called V-Tex.

Some other euro companies name their vinyl too. Volvo I think even has a marketing name for their cloth lol.
You had corrected me earlier, but we used to refer to Mercedes vinyl as Text. Regardless of what is was or is called, it wore very well.
elistan commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Hope this delivers outstanding gas milage because by the time you select a couple packages and two or three options you're looking the price of a 328i
Yeah, but it'd be a 328i WITHOUT a couple packages and two or three options.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
You had corrected me earlier, but we used to refer to Mercedes vinyl as Text. Regardless of what is was or is called, it wore very well.
Yep, that's the appeal for me.

My VW CC had V-tex, much more convincing than the BMW leatherette, wear was nill at nearly 60k. BMW's feels as though it would last 3x longer than anything else on the car lol.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Yep, that's the appeal for me.

My VW CC had V-tex, much more convincing than the BMW leatherette, wear was nill at nearly 60k. BMW's feels as though it would last 3x longer than anything else on the car lol.
Not to split hairs or anything, but here is an ad that I pulled off of the internet. This owner also refers to the "Text" interior.

"MERCEDES-BENZ 350SL 1979. Yellow with black hard and soft-tops, black mb text and check interior including rear seats. Two families from new. 41,800 miles only from new with service history. Absolutely fabulous condition. A cherished motorcar.

He probably also got the real name wrong, but we had that 300D for 8+ years and got to know the car very well.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 4:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Not to split hairs or anything, but here is an ad that I pulled off of the internet. This owner also refers to the "Text" interior.

"MERCEDES-BENZ 350SL 1979. Yellow with black hard and soft-tops, black mb text and check interior including rear seats. Two families from new. 41,800 miles only from new with service history. Absolutely fabulous condition. A cherished motorcar.

He probably also got the real name wrong, but we had that 300D for 8+ years and got to know the car very well.
Yeah, not the same as MBTex, notice the spelling, this is a TM.

It is also decades later, it is a different grade and surely from a different supplier.

Granted, MBTex is a shortened name for what may have previously known as MB Text.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Hope this delivers outstanding gas milage because by the time you select a couple packages and two or three options you're looking the price of a 328i
That's exactly the point, and I don't think the buyer cares that much about the gas mileage either.

You have a lot of people out there who want to get into a BMW, and right now the cost of entry is near $40,000 or $375 a month. And that's for a car that is completely stripped, maybe has one option on it and that's it.

Instead of a very fast twin turbo powerplant making 240 horses, they trade that off for a more sedate powerplant and can add both the premium package and the technology package for the same money. Essentially, the 328i stripper becomes a 320i decently equipped for the same money.

BJ
Zeichen311 commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:06 pm

Anyone puzzled how a new model fits in the lineup should consider that BMW has always offered choices with considerable pricing overlap, depending on option choices (and no doubt for exactly that reason, making power output just another option). This is the 3 Series sedan lineup in Germany:
316i
320i
320i EfficientDynamics Edition
320i xDrive
328i
328i xDrive
335i
335i xDrive

316d
318d
320d
320d EfficientDynamics Edition
320d xDrive
330d
Exluding the new introduction, we get only the variants in bold. There's plenty of room for expansion.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Instead of a very fast twin turbo powerplant making 240 horses, they trade that off for a more sedate powerplant and can add both the premium package and the technology package for the same money.
BJ
Careful BJ, the N55 and N20 are TWINPOWER turbos, BMW marketing for twin-scroll turbos-but are in fact singular turbos.

The N54 was an actual twin turbo setup.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I think 320i is here to pull that 48 average age down. Most younger buyers into job market not too long ago cannot afford the payment on a $40k+ 3 series, BMW does not want to lose out to the competitions in that demographic of 20 to 30 year-olds.

The 320i looks no different than the 328i or 335i. Very soon BJ you need to increase the size of your L328i badge, or risk being laughed at by new college grads.
It's always been that way, nothing is really going to change except there will be more people stepping down from the 328i and newer young people enjoying the BMW brand for the first time.

And just like 335i owners look down upon 328i owners, we 328i folk now have a new group of people to pick on.

Mr. and Mrs. Camry know one thing: a new BMW versus an old BMW. So the more the merrier I say, so long as there are boatloads of E90‘s out there my status is safe. Keep yours in good shape, ya hear?

I'm surprised you're even posting today. Ironic isn't it? On the very day that the Cadillac ATS is proclaimed North American Car of the Year, BMW launches a vehicle that will destroy it before it ever gets off the ground.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:17 pm

Back in the E36 days, not only was there 318i/318is(the equivalent of our 328 now) but there was the 318ti which had even cheaper interior materials, the older trailing arm rear suspension of the E30 and a HATCHBACK to lower the price. In the rest of the world, this continued as there was E46 generations in other countries. I saw one in person last year in China where I took this pic:

Blax commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Anyone puzzled how a new model fits in the lineup should consider that BMW has always offered choices with considerable pricing overlap, depending on option choices (and no doubt for exactly that reason, making power output just another option). This is the 3 Series sedan lineup in Germany:
316i
320i
320i EfficientDynamics Edition
320i xDrive
328i
328i xDrive
335i
335i xDrive

316d
318d
320d
320d EfficientDynamics Edition
320d xDrive
330d
Exluding the new introduction, we get only the variants in bold. There's plenty of room for expansion.
Quite right. I'm surprised it took over three pages of comments for someone to point this out.

My dad chose a 320i in Australia recently over a 316i or 318d. Of course in countries outside the US these cars cost a LOT more (as does the gas), so folks tend towards the smaller engines. If I remember, the 328i starts at $65k in Australia (a much lower price than the e90). Maybe the Aussies on the forums can keep me honest here...
wmcilwain commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:35 pm

This took me by surprise:

http://www.bmwusa.com/detroitautoshow/?s_kwcid

I hadn't read anywhere that BMW were planning to release the 320i in the US. It looks to have a detuned version of the 2.0 tubo in the 328i.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Careful BJ, the N55 and N20 are TWINPOWER turbos, BMW marketing for twin-scroll turbos-but are in fact singular turbos.

The N54 was an actual twin turbo setup.
Same thing. It's got the word "twin" in it.

BJ
krash commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Anyone puzzled how a new model fits in the lineup should consider that BMW has always offered choices with considerable pricing overlap, depending on option choices (and no doubt for exactly that reason, making power output just another option). This is the 3 Series sedan lineup in Germany:
316i
320i
320i EfficientDynamics Edition
320i xDrive
328i
328i xDrive
335i
335i xDrive

316d
318d
320d
320d EfficientDynamics Edition
320d xDrive
330d
Exluding the new introduction, we get only the variants in bold. There's plenty of room for expansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blax View Post
Quite right. I'm surprised it took over three pages of comments for someone to point this out.

My dad chose a 320i in Australia recently over a 316i or 318d. Of course in countries outside the US these cars cost a LOT more (as does the gas), so folks tend towards the smaller engines. If I remember, the 328i starts at $65k in Australia (a much lower price than the e90). Maybe the Aussies on the forums can keep me honest here...
When they originally announced the F30, didn't they say the 320i may hit our shores? I vaguely recall something like that, but not 100% sure...
BMW220i commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Vida_ View Post
So besides the C250, what would be competing with the 320i? Higher end Accords maybe?
With this $33k BMW 3 series, it will put pressure on the $32k Acura TSX. The TSX has to either improve or lower the price. It will also put pressure on the Audi A4, which used to be only a bit cheaper but now is more expensive than the 320i.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 5:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
With this $33k BMW 3 series, it will put pressure on the $32k Acura TSX. The TSX has to either improve or lower the price. It will also put pressure on the Audi A4, which used to be only a bit cheaper but now is more expensive than the 320i.
I also feel like good luck finding one of those A4 FWDs on a dealer lot. There is less money to be made on such a car. Sure, you can order one lol. Audi spends too much time drilling Quattro into your brain to get people excited about a FWD A4.
jfox335i commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:03 pm

Don't care about the 320, but if they decide to bring the M135i hatchback to our shores, that'll be a sweet DD.
SamS commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:12 pm

I think it's nice to have a cheaper 3-series. It's not hard to load up a 328i to $50K. Which puts it out of the league price-wise with Acuras, etc. Which is where a 3-series still needs to compete.

Now, you'll be able to get a very well equipped F30:

320i @ $40K
328i @ $50K
335i/AH3 @ $60K
tturedraider commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's exactly the point, and I don't think the buyer cares that much about the gas mileage either.

You have a lot of people out there who want to get into a BMW, and right now the cost of entry is near $40,000 or $375 a month. And that's for a car that is completely stripped, maybe has one option on it and that's it.

Instead of a very fast twin turbo powerplant making 240 horses, they trade that off for a more sedate powerplant and can add both the premium package and the technology package for the same money. Essentially, the 328i stripper becomes a 320i decently equipped for the same money.

BJ
Looks like the 320 will not offer the Tech package. Guess that will help keep up 328 status.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I also feel like good luck finding one of those A4 FWDs on a dealer lot. There is less money to be made on such a car. Sure, you can order one lol. Audi spends too much time drilling Quattro into your brain to get people excited about a FWD A4.
You might be surprised how many fwd A4s and even A6s I see around Chicagoland.
DrT commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's $4,000 cheaper.

That buys BMW many more customers who couldn't afford the base 328i and/or allows someone who really wanted a 328i with a lot of option packages to step down in engine class and accomplish that goal. Instead of taking a 328i and feeling forced to put no Line on the car or skip something like the technology package, now you can just cut the horsepower and keep all the goodies.

BJ
It's all about growing the market and expanding product lines to accomplish this is a growth strategy.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Looks like the 320 will not offer the Tech package. Guess that will help keep up 328 status.



You might be surprised how many fwd A4s and even A6s I see around Chicagoland.
Yeah, but what are dealers STOCKING.

Big player here, Paul Miller Audi, 39 A4's on the site, ALL Quattro, lowest MSRP $36k and change.
SamS commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Looks like the 320 will not offer the Tech package. Guess that will help keep up 328 status.
For the 320i, you can still order Nav and BMW Apps. Just no HUD and extended panel.
JoeFromPA commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:31 pm

What's funny is that, from an options perspective, that $32k Acura TSX is a far more impressive car to step into.

I'm curious how much more down market they are going to move the 3-series. Part of the "pay for the badge" appeal has always been, in the U.S., the exclusivity.

This has been eroded substantially in recent years by lease deals and can be witnessed by the huge relative expansion of BMW ownership in the U.S.

Now they are knocking another ~12.5% off the entry-level cost and probably another $50 off/month on the lease deals.

Wonder how this is going to impact the long-term perception of BMW.
SamS commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
What's funny is that, from an options perspective, that $32k Acura TSX is a far more impressive car to step into.
But not to drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I'm curious how much more down market they are going to move the 3-series. Part of the "pay for the badge" appeal has always been, in the U.S., the exclusivity.

This has been eroded substantially in recent years by lease deals and can be witnessed by the huge relative expansion of BMW ownership in the U.S.

Now they are knocking another ~12.5% off the entry-level cost and probably another $50 off/month on the lease deals.

Wonder how this is going to impact the long-term perception of BMW.
So you have no problem with the entry level BMW creeping up to $50K, with just the standard array of options that a $31K Accord buyer gets?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post

Looks like the 320 will not offer the Tech package. Guess that will help keep up 328 status.


Nor the Luxury line.

I'm very safe. An elite 3 Series if there ever was one.

BJ
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
What's funny is that, from an options perspective, that $32k Acura TSX is a far more impressive car to step into.

I'm curious how much more down market they are going to move the 3-series. Part of the "pay for the badge" appeal has always been, in the U.S., the exclusivity.

This has been eroded substantially in recent years by lease deals and can be witnessed by the huge relative expansion of BMW ownership in the U.S.

Now they are knocking another ~12.5% off the entry-level cost and probably another $50 off/month on the lease deals.

Wonder how this is going to impact the long-term perception of BMW.
A TSX is just marketing for NA. Our Accord got too big so they just started sending us the Euro Accord. Pass.

In the recent comparo the 328 came on top and was faster than the 280hp TSX V6. The 320 might do better against the 2.4 than you think.

I would not worry about BMW perception due to the 320. As noted above, there have been some pretty low end iterations of BMWs in the E36/E46 generations as well.
sqa4life commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
At $38,000 base, a 328i is no longer "low" end.

Therefore, a 320i at $33,000. That puts it right where the "new" meat is. Consider this: A BMW 3-Series cheaper than an Honda Accord (V6, though).

And by the way, I would bet that the 180hp are at the wheels. This is like a 210hp/220lbs-ft engine.
face the reality!

2013 honda accord EX-L V6 is loaded and has more features than the base 328i and invoice on the Accord EX-L V6 is only $28292. Plus it has almost 280HP. Beat the hell out of the base 328i.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqa4life View Post
face the reality!

2013 honda accord EX-L V6 is loaded and has more features than the base 328i and invoice on the Accord EX-L V6 is only $28292. Plus it has almost 280HP. Beat the hell out of the base 328i.
Fully loaded Accord V-6 is $33-34k.

This is not news.

BMW has never positioned the 3 to seem like a value against the Accord and Camry.
DrT commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Reality Check:

While Bimmerfest would lead you to believe that the roads are filled with 28 year old 335i M-Sport owners in their Estoril Blue F30's, the real world is something very different.

The typical 3 Series driver is a 48 year old. She's 50% female. 60% of them are leasing. 90% are driving vehicles without Sport line or sport anything. 80% are 328i's. And with the average at 48 years old, for every 29 year old male enthusiast there's a 75 year old female using the car to hit the beauty salon.

So the reason "why would anyone be thinking about this" is because the typical 3 Series driver has to ditch important options for the sake of hitting a monthly budget. You see a $349 car advertised on TV. You come in. You add a few options. Suddenly you're at $479. Then you're out the door, off to Audi and off to Acura.

The one thing BMW won't let you trade out of in their most affordable Sedan is the powerplant. The 328i is a beast, extremely powerful. Some might say it's overkill. Certainly a 75 year old female wouldn't notice if you trimmed off 50 HP, might even appreciate it. Oh, and she can save $4,000? And then add the Premium package or the Technology package? Touchdown.

BJ
+1 and in three to four years the CPO market will explode with more younger BMW drivers who can afford a 18k to 20k three to four year old BMW with some warranty.
Saintor commented:
January 14, 2013, 6:58 pm

US gets the 320i
Canada gets the 328d .... next week.
http://www.salonautomontreal.com/upl...s-2013_901.pdf

Nice comparo that includes a 320i.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=1BJojoXnGoo
AzNMpower32 commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:00 pm

I think the 320i is a good step and will still be a terrific drive. However, I'm more interested in something that has a compression ignition engine.
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqa4life View Post
face the reality!

2013 honda accord EX-L V6 is loaded and has more features than the base 328i and invoice on the Accord EX-L V6 is only $28292. Plus it has almost 280HP. Beat the hell out of the base 328i.
There was a time that the most expensive Honda Accord was still cheaper than a base 3-Series.

No more. That's what I meant.
SamS commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
There was a time that the most expensive Honda Accord was still cheaper than a base 3-Series.

No more. That's what I meant.
Funny all this Accord talk. On Saturday, I sold my '06 Accord sedan. At the time I bought it new, it was the most expensive 4cyl Accord you could buy. EX with leather/Navigation. I think MSRP was $26.5K. On Friday, I pick up the most expensive 3-series (AH3) one can buy.

A loaded 3-series is still 2X the price of a loaded Accord.
dtc100 commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's always been that way, nothing is really going to change except there will be more people stepping down from the 328i and newer young people enjoying the BMW brand for the first time.

And just like 335i owners look down upon 328i owners, we 328i folk now have a new group of people to pick on.

Mr. and Mrs. Camry know one thing: a new BMW versus an old BMW. So the more the merrier I say, so long as there are boatloads of E90‘s out there my status is safe. Keep yours in good shape, ya hear?

I'm surprised you're even posting today. Ironic isn't it? On the very day that the Cadillac ATS is proclaimed North American Car of the Year, BMW launches a vehicle that will destroy it before it ever gets off the ground.

BJ
Your status is no longer because a lot of college grads will be driving the 320i looking just like yours. Before the 320i you might have a semi legit reason to look down on the E90s because indeed a lot of them are driven by 20 year olds.

But now you have to eat the same pills too soon. So come with me and give the ATS a look. Since most of the ATS drivers will be old, you actually will raise your status as someone making it earlier in life than those old farts.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0rd NIk0n View Post
+1 and in three to four years the CPO market will explode with more younger BMW drivers who can afford a 18k to 20k three to four year old BMW with some warranty.
If I were the owner of, say, a 2007 or 2011 E90, today's news devalued my ride 30%.

Not only the old bodystyle working against it, but why buy used when you can lease new for peanuts?

BJ
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Funny all this Accord talk. On Saturday, I sold my '06 Accord sedan. At the time I bought it new, it was the most expensive 4cyl Accord you could buy. EX with leather/Navigation. I think MSRP was $26.5K. On Friday, I pick up the most expensive 3-series (AH3) one can buy.

A loaded 3-series is still 2X the price of a loaded Accord.
... and there is a Ford Escape that is more expensive than a BMW X3.

S**t just got real.
Crzy'boutBimmer commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:11 pm

Wonder what bmw would do next? It would have been better releasing a 1-series.. instead of downgrading a 3'er.

Oh, well.. so they screwed with the 3'er.. hope they dont mess with the M3, M5, etc..plz leave at least 1 good thing alone... I know sales means a lot to you (bmw)... but Class is something ure cherished for!!

Amen.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your status is no longer because a lot of college grads will be driving the 320i looking just like yours. Before the 320i you might have a semi legit reason to look down on the E90s because indeed a lot of them are driven by 20 year olds.

But now you have to eat the same pills too soon. So come with me and give the ATS a look. Since most of the ATS drivers will be old, you actually will raise your status as someone making it earlier in life than those old farts.
Your car is worth 30% less than it was this morning. I doubt you can afford the ATS now.

BJ
Technic commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer View Post
Wonder what bmw would do next? It would have been better releasing a 1-series.. instead of downgrading a 3'er.

Oh, well.. so they screwed with the 3'er.. hope they dont mess with the M3, M5, etc..plz leave at least 1 good thing alone... I know sales means a lot to you (bmw)... but Class is something ure cherished for!!

Amen.
Price-wise, BMW kept the M5 at bay, but moved the M6 and M6GC deeper into the $100,000+.

I expect the M3 to stay close to the current E92 M3 price and go really nuts with the M4 and the M4GC prices.

To me, the new reality will be moving most of the M sales to the upcoming 1- and 2-Series. And they will reach the high $50K anyways.

I do not know how much ceiling BMW thinks they got, but for sure they had to get into the $25-$33,000 bracket for volume just because they will soon have an over abundance of cars at the $65,000-$110,000+ bracket that will not be sold at volume regardless of incentive.

The X1 and the 320i are just the first step.
Saintor commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:28 pm

Quote:
Wonder what bmw would do next?
After a 320i/328i 4-cyl., why not a FWD 3-series.
JoeFromPA commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Your car is worth 30% less than it was this morning. I doubt you can afford the ATS now.

BJ
Breaking news: Older, depreciated cars not massively further depreciated when a trim line is introduced on an existing model.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Your status is no longer because a lot of college grads will be driving the 320i looking just like yours. Before the 320i you might have a semi legit reason to look down on the E90s because indeed a lot of them are driven by 20 year olds.

But now you have to eat the same pills too soon. So come with me and give the ATS a look. Since most of the ATS drivers will be old, you actually will raise your status as someone making it earlier in life than those old farts.
On the bright side, now the "Luxury" 328i model is no longer the low man on the totem pole...the 320i is (Oh, I forgot the "no-line") I knew it was somewhere down near the bottom. The high school parking lots will now have lots of BMWs. But, that's not a bad thing at all. Many of those young drivers will be long term owners down the road.
beden1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Breaking news: Older, depreciated cars not massively further depreciated when a trim line is introduced on an existing model.
The current F30-328i will be the one to take the resale value hit because of the 320i.
MMME30W commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:48 pm

I cant wait to drive one of these.

6MT with leatherette, Roundel on the hood and RWD for 30k ish?

Dayum...
MMME30W commented:
January 14, 2013, 7:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
After a 320i/328i 4-cyl., why not a FWD 3-series.
A MINI you mean?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Breaking news: Older, depreciated cars not massively further depreciated when a trim line is introduced on an existing model.
The point is that if a 2011 E90 would have a future street price of, say, $16,000, some new college grad would have the option of leasing a brand-new 320i for a paltry $279. That $16,000 would buy him 57 months or practically 5 years in a brand new BMW instead. Not to mention the Ultimate Warranty, two new cars instead of one old one, etc.

BJ
mynycbimmer commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:29 pm

So much for the 3 series being a status symbol, any schmuck can now drop the daily Starbucks latte and lease one of these instead.
bzcat commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:35 pm

Some of you are really over thinking this.

The existence of 320i allows BMW to move up the lease entry point on the 328i. Even by as little as $20 or $30 a month... at the volume they are doing, this is a significant profit driver. When you introduce a lower price option on an otherwise established product line, it is usually to signal to the consumers that the new middle priced option is the one they should go for. It's a tried and tested pricing strategy. You slice and dice the current 328i buyers... the ones looking for the stripper model will be very happy with 320i and the one that prefers lots of options will see that 328i still offers a compelling value proposition.

For sure BMW will carefully controlled the availability of 320i to the point so that it doesn't overtake the sale of more profitable 328i.

The end game here is raise the actual residual and/or lower the stated residual on the 328i (i.e. close the residual gap) so BMWFS doesn't have to eat $3,000 on each lease return.
MMME30W commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
So much for the 3 series being a status symbol, any schmuck can now drop the daily Starbucks latte and lease one of these instead.
Here in Atlanta BMWs are a dime a dozen. They aint exactly a status symbol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
Some of you are really over thinking this.

The existence of 320i allows BMW to move up the lease entry point on the 328i. Even by as little as $20 or $30 a month... at the volume they are doing, this is a significant profit driver. When you introduce a lower price option on an otherwise established product line, it is usually to signal to the consumers that the new middle priced option is the one they should go for. It's a tried and tested pricing strategy. You slice and dice the current 328i buyers... the ones looking for the stripper model will be very happy with 320i and the one that prefers lots of options will see that 328i still offers a compelling value proposition.

For sure BMW will carefully controlled the availability of 320i to the point so that it doesn't overtake the sale of more profitable 328i.

The end game here is raise the actual residual and/or lower the stated residual on the 328i (i.e. close the residual gap) so BMWFS doesn't have to eat $3,000 on each lease return.
Good point.
dtc100 commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Your car is worth 30% less than it was this morning. I doubt you can afford the ATS now.

BJ
As others have pointed out, not only is the used car market very hot now, the depreciation is not that bad for a 5 year old than your one year old. Although both of us lease, so any hit will be absorbed by BMWFS.

There is a recent survey of the ATS drivers showing there is a very good chance the average age of the ATS drivers is much lower than that of the F30 drivers. As I said BMW needs to lower the average age of its drivers. Introducing the 320i might help.

Can you imagine an average BMW driver older than a Caddy driver?
bayoucity commented:
January 14, 2013, 8:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
After a 320i/328i 4-cyl., why not a FWD 3-series.
Why not 3 cylinders? Ohhh wait, never mind...
AzNMpower32 commented:
January 14, 2013, 9:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Why not 3 cylinders? Ohhh wait, never mind...
Nothing wrong with 3-cylinder cars..... Ford's using the 1,0 litre turbocharged 3-cyl on the Fiesta and Focus (debuting in that order). I drove a VW Polo 1,2 TDI recently and it was fine and dandy as an urban/suburban car. Felt fine humming 3000rpm in 5th @ 160km/h. Returned the equivalent of 57 US mpg and I wasn't even trying or stopping the engine (the Auto Start-Stop is only avail on the BlueMotion model).

I guess it's all perspective and expectations.
justinnum1 commented:
January 14, 2013, 9:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
The 335 isn't going anywhere.

The 328 doesn't touch the 335 in regards to performance. I don't care about 60 times and the quarter, however in regards to driving feel, the 328 was laggy and weak, which was the primary reason I went with the 335 over the 328.

This model doesn't make much sense to me either, 4K drop for losing 60HP? I don't get it, but I understand BJs point. It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
the 328 is pretty damn close. And it definitely touches it.
jplev commented:
January 14, 2013, 9:07 pm

That's a great point boltja. I'm glad my E90 is a lease!
chrisk03 commented:
January 14, 2013, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
With this $33k BMW 3 series, it will put pressure on the $32k Acura TSX. The TSX has to either improve or lower the price. It will also put pressure on the Audi A4, which used to be only a bit cheaper but now is more expensive than the 320i.
Won't matter, the TSX is going bye, bye. The new, upcoming TLX will be playing in this field when released. It's basically the TL, but they are moving down in size, probably closer to the 3rd gen TL in size, etc. As a Honda/Acura fan, I hope, the present gen TL is a disaster...as is most of Acura, save for the MDX. The laughable ILX won't even be a consideration for most compared to this 320.

That said, I'm quite intrigued by this vehicle. In my mind, it actually may be more fun than my present 335i and more practical for me. 320i Sport with 6speed, don't care about leather, some tech goodies and I'm good to go. You'll also have the usual performance guru's work over the engine with not much trouble. Can't wait to drive...
BentZero commented:
January 14, 2013, 9:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This will be BMW's best-selling 3 Series within two years.

Might also signal the end of the 335i completely. The 328i is only a hair less performance positive than the 335i right now is anyway. The 328i can become the top-of-the-line, the 320i the new bottom.

BJ
That would make me very sad.
KES328 commented:
January 14, 2013, 10:00 pm

Several years ago I rented on business a 3 Series in Germany with the 1.8l gas engine and 5 or 6 speed manual transmission, cloth seats, manually adjustable, with basically no options. It was a rental etc. i wasn't comparing this to any other car just driving around on my commute and making the most of the car on the windy roads etc. The car was a figging blast, loved it! Just a basic BMW with a small engine. But it was fun and that was all that mattered. And to someone on a lower budget this is why the 320 can do well.
elistan commented:
January 14, 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Yeah, but what are dealers STOCKING.

Big player here, Paul Miller Audi, 39 A4's on the site, ALL Quattro, lowest MSRP $36k and change.
Perhaps it's a regional thing. Boardwalk Audi here in Dallas lists 62 A4s in stock - and only 10 are Quatro. Prices range from $35,085 to $48,770.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 14, 2013, 10:37 pm

edit: NEVERMIND, bad info.
dtc100 commented:
January 14, 2013, 11:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
That would make me very sad.
BJ is already looking forward to the future 3 series, when the 320i will be the performance trim, and 303i (3 cylinder version) will be the base 3 series priced at the level of a loaded Civic. Consider yourself lucky for now
boltjaM3s commented:
January 14, 2013, 11:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BJ is already looking forward to the future 3 series, when the 320i will be the performance trim, and 303i (3 cylinder version) will be the base 3 series priced at the level of a loaded Civic. Consider yourself lucky for now
BJ loves his L328i and only wants to see BMW have continued financial success as they reciprocate with the best looking and best handling cars in his segment. The more F30's on the road the better because BJ likes to look at them.

If BMW develops a 2 cylinder car that outperforms the F30 the way the 4 cylinder car outperforms the E90, BJ will be all over it.

BJ
namelessman commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:34 am

335i lines up nicely against the competitors, e.g. Audi's S4, so 335i probably won't go away. It is interesting to read the headlines that BMW is bringing 320d to US in 2013, this can further expand the market share of F30.
SteVTEC commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by KES328 View Post
Several years ago I rented on business a 3 Series in Germany with the 1.8l gas engine and 5 or 6 speed manual transmission, cloth seats, manually adjustable, with basically no options. It was a rental etc. i wasn't comparing this to any other car just driving around on my commute and making the most of the car on the windy roads etc. The car was a figging blast, loved it! Just a basic BMW with a small engine. But it was fun and that was all that mattered. And to someone on a lower budget this is why the 320 can do well.
ding ding!
mr_clueless commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
The 335 isn't going anywhere.

The 328 doesn't touch the 335 in regards to performance. I don't care about 60 times and the quarter, however in regards to driving feel, the 328 was laggy and weak, which was the primary reason I went with the 335 over the 328.

This model doesn't make much sense to me either, 4K drop for losing 60HP? I don't get it, but I understand BJs point. It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
Just like with the 335i, the $4K drop will probably include other things...will have to look closer. Maybe power seats and auto dimming mirrors may not be standard, brakes may be smaller (although since weight is the same that is unlikely).

But it's interesting that the sport package has body-colored mirrors and an M-sport wheel! That's better than the 328i and 335i.
Red Lined commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:38 am

Great, now the school parking lot will be even more flooded with F30s on lease! I wonder how many chicks back home in SFLA fresh out of high school/college will convince their parents to lease them one of these? I wonder if people would still buy a bimmer if they put a lawn mower engine in it?

Honestly though, BMW has some stiff competition on the horizon though:






Check out the Garmin-esque navigation in the CLA. (If you're not checking out something else...)
beden1 commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:48 am

That CLA is a great looking car. Is that the new Mercedes entry level model?
pkim1079 commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:48 am

Wait no one else catch a no line with msport interior?!
mr_clueless commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Wait no one else catch a no line with msport interior?!
It's not a no-line...it has the sports pack.
mr29 commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:55 am

looks pretty good

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
MMME30W commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by KES328 View Post
Several years ago I rented on business a 3 Series in Germany with the 1.8l gas engine and 5 or 6 speed manual transmission, cloth seats, manually adjustable, with basically no options. It was a rental etc. i wasn't comparing this to any other car just driving around on my commute and making the most of the car on the windy roads etc. The car was a figging blast, loved it! Just a basic BMW with a small engine. But it was fun and that was all that mattered. And to someone on a lower budget this is why the 320 can do well.
Agree completely.
pilotman commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:12 am

I think its VERY funny to all the posters who are concerned about ruining the "status" effect of a 3 series.

Is that why you really bought/leased a BMW?

I surely hope not, now every tom, dick and harry with any sort of job can buy a brand new, stripper BMW for low $30s and get the same dealership, maintenance and warranty experience as you "luxury car" snobs.

But to those who recognize that power isn't everything, this is a great opportunity to avoid paying nearly $50k for what has become a bloated, techno-laden compact car.

You can now get a nicely equipped, i.e. manual trans, xenons, a few other important options....for low $30s.

the deal should be great on euro delivery.
pony_trekker commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
I think its VERY funny to all the posters who are concerned about ruining the "status" effect of a 3 series.

Is that why you really bought/leased a BMW?

I surely hope not, now every tom, dick and harry with any sort of job can buy a brand new, stripper BMW for low $30s and get the same dealership, maintenance and warranty experience as you "luxury car" snobs.

But to those who recognize that power isn't everything, this is a great opportunity to avoid paying nearly $50k for what has become a bloated, techno-laden compact car.

You can now get a nicely equipped, i.e. manual trans, xenons, a few other important options....for low $30s.

the deal should be great on euro delivery.
shabadoo25 commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Perhaps it's a regional thing. Boardwalk Audi here in Dallas lists 62 A4s in stock - and only 10 are Quatro. Prices range from $35,085 to $48,770.
It's regional.

The northern half of the country buys the AWD versions. The southern half barely stocks any.
chrisk03 commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That CLA is a great looking car. Is that the new Mercedes entry level model?
Yes it is...and I agree. That should sell pretty well, especially at the tad below $30k price it's suppposed to start.
pilotman commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
comon' pony trekker, others have already expressed this idea.

Some people have driven the smaller engine BMWs and loved them.

Gosh, you can even love the car if it doesn't have Pandora and email functionality.

Its no secret that BMW has intentionally changed its marketing recently, and the current F30 is a bit softer and more luxury focused.

Its hard to complain, especially since their salesa are booming, average age of a BMW driver is 48 years old, with more than half women...
Red Lined commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That CLA is a great looking car. Is that the new Mercedes entry level model?
Yes, it will be. And it will surely eat into 320 sales. BMW really screwed up with this model...should have just brought the 320d.
spicytofu commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:55 am

180 hp is what my old car had, its a downgrade. If this is just a de-tuned engine and a chip will bring back the 240, I may be tempted to get one.
pilotman commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:00 am

and another thing to remember, this is nothing new, the canadians have had this exact model for a while.

We see them all the time here in detroit, since we are 1/2 hour from Windsor.

Smaller engines have been sold in Canada and every other market in the world for a long time now.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
huh?? No matter what you add to it it will be $4,000 less than an equivalently equipped 328.
Just being being cynical. Does BMWNA really need to offer it's customers the F30/N20? No
Zeichen311 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Lined View Post
Yes, it will be. And it will surely eat into 320 sales. BMW really screwed up with this model...should have just brought the 320d.
That's on its way also, a bit later.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
I think its VERY funny to all the posters who are concerned about ruining the "status" effect of a 3 series.

Is that why you really bought/leased a BMW?

I surely hope not, now every tom, dick and harry with any sort of job can buy a brand new, stripper BMW for low $30s and get the same dealership, maintenance and warranty experience as you "luxury car" snobs.

But to those who recognize that power isn't everything, this is a great opportunity to avoid paying nearly $50k for what has become a bloated, techno-laden compact car.

You can now get a nicely equipped, i.e. manual trans, xenons, a few other important options....for low $30s.

the deal should be great on euro delivery.
It still has a base MSRP of $33k, which puts it right at the the Acura TSX, Nissan Maxima entry level market segment. So there is still some degree of exclusivity, but it certainly makes it more accessible to a much broader base of folks.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:22 am

One more rant regarding the arrival of N20i, plus the other new models coming to the USA, BMW is becoming VW or worse GM!
mr_clueless commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Lined View Post
Yes, it will be. And it will surely eat into 320 sales. BMW really screwed up with this model...should have just brought the 320d.
I thought they are bringing the 320d as well.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Back in the E36 days, not only was there 318i/318is(the equivalent of our 328 now) but there was the 318ti which had even cheaper interior materials, the older trailing arm rear suspension of the E30 and a HATCHBACK to lower the price. In the rest of the world, this continued as there was E46 generations in other countries.
I remember test driving a 318i (e30) back in the late 80s. Cloth seats, basically stripped to the bone, below average sound system, but I absolutely loved it, and unfortunatey, I couldn't afford it either. I ended up buying a Nissan Maxima instead.

Of course, the affordability of a car is all relative. If you take 2 people making the exact same amount of money, chances are you'll get 2 completely different answers in terms of what's affordable or not.
mr_clueless commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:45 am

While I definitely think that more choice is better for the consumer, what is the motivation for the 320i other than lower entry price? It might make sense if cars were taxed by horsepower.

Normally, buying a less expensive car gets you lower maintenance costs, but that does not appear to be the case with the 320i -- MPG, cost of servicing, tires, etc. -- are probably all going to be identical to the 328i.
lqaddict commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
One more rant regarding the arrival of N20i, plus the other new models coming to the USA, BMW is becoming VW or worse GM!
As it's been pointed out previously BMW has offered multiple models within the series for the last couple of decades or so in Europe and even here in the States.
This model has proved to be more successful outside of US of A so far.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 12:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
I think its VERY funny to all the posters who are concerned about ruining the "status" effect of a 3 series.

Is that why you really bought/leased a BMW?

I surely hope not, now every tom, dick and harry with any sort of job can buy a brand new, stripper BMW for low $30s and get the same dealership, maintenance and warranty experience as you "luxury car" snobs.

But to those who recognize that power isn't everything, this is a great opportunity to avoid paying nearly $50k for what has become a bloated, techno-laden compact car.

You can now get a nicely equipped, i.e. manual trans, xenons, a few other important options....for low $30s.

the deal should be great on euro delivery.
No worries there. It will just make less-fortunate people think there are more of us now.

BJ
55 commented:
January 15, 2013, 1:22 pm

Here in Toronto, if you see 3 series from a distance, good bet it will be 323 or 320, and if you get closer, most or the time it is true. You recognize them in the rear view mirror buy the absence of the corona rings.
But Canadians are paying for them as much or more as Americans paying for 328.
Just saying..
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 1:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 View Post
Here in Toronto, if you see 3 series from a distance, good bet it will be 323 or 320, and if you get closer, most or the time it is true. You recognize them in the rear view mirror buy the absence of the corona rings.
But Canadians are paying for them as much or more as Americans paying for 328.
Just saying..
What, no corona rings on these?
spicytofu commented:
January 15, 2013, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Of course, the affordability of a car is all relative. If you take 2 people making the exact same amount of money, chances are you'll get 2 completely different answers in terms of what's affordable or not.
+1111 I have friends whose rents are $1500+ and my rent is only 650 I save $1000 per month...and im not living in a sh*thole either.
tim330i commented:
January 15, 2013, 1:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
What, no corona rings on these?
Stock is halogens, but they're offering a lighting package. I can't imagine that won't have corona rings.

Tim
jjp735i commented:
January 15, 2013, 2:41 pm

I welcome the 320i, this almost gets me into a new BMW for once. At least I could afford one with low low miles in a couple years. This is aimed at people like me. Can't quit afford a 328i or 335i.

Thanks BMW.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 15, 2013, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjp735i View Post
I welcome the 320i, this almost gets me into a new BMW for once. At least I could afford one with low low miles in a couple years. This is aimed at people like me. Can't quit afford a 328i or 335i.

Thanks BMW.
Understand the situation but if you're looking to spend that amount there's a lot of options in that price range worth consideration.
55 commented:
January 15, 2013, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Stock is halogens, but they're offering a lighting package. I can't imagine that won't have corona rings.

Tim
I've never seen 323 with corona rings. I am not saying they are not available, but 323 buyers are budget oriented and probably never order them. Also the packages in Canada are very heavy and expensive.
3ismagic# commented:
January 15, 2013, 3:20 pm

Honestly, I'm surprised it took them this long to do this.

Doesn't anyone remember the 318ti E36?

The fact that is get's the same milage as the 328i is pretty lame though.

I'll be curious to see the pricing of the 320d.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 3:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
Honestly, I'm surprised it took them this long to do this.
Yeah, some people think they're going down market. I see it more as if the 3 is getting back to it's roots.

People on this forum already talked about this, but back in the 80s and early 90s, you could get really stripped down versions of the 3...cloth seats, a crappy sound system, and not a lot of gadgets, but people loved them.

It wasn't really until the e90 that the 3 went up market.
beden1 commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yeah, some people think they're going down market. I see it more as if the 3 is getting back to it's roots.

People on this forum already talked about this, but back in the 80s and early 90s, you could get really stripped down versions of the 3...cloth seats, a crappy sound system, and not a lot of gadgets, but people loved them.

It wasn't really until the e90 that the 3 went up market.
That was pretty much my 1979 320i that I bought new. Cloth seating, 4 speed manual tranny, crappy Blaupunkt stereo radio, and just a few knobs and buttons. It did have power windows, locks and sunroof. Nice car overall and was fun except it was underpowered.

Upgraded features like leather seating were not available in a 3 Series. You had to go up to a 5 Series or better to get creature comforts.
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
The fact that is get's the same milage as the 328i is pretty lame though.
According to several articles, the 320i is BMW's direct response to the Caddy ATS 2.5L value proposition, by undercutting its MSRP. If true, then undercutting the price is the only goal.

Interestingly, a few days before the news, I had stated in one of the ATS threads here that Caddy had a chance if they could undercut the 3 series, and allow many younger first time luxury buyers to enter this segment by starting with a Caddy. Apparently BMW saw the same threat.

The average 3 driver is getting older, in part because the price is getting higher, which tends to keep first timers away. Yet the luxury brands have to recruit those young drivers to stay in the game in the long run.

In the past BMW might have counted on the 1 series to take on that duty, but it did not work too well. People who have been driving Camry and Accord, or even Corrolla and Civic, will have to size it down to fit in a 1 series.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
According to several articles, the 320i is BMW's direct response to the Caddy ATS 2.5L value proposition, by undercutting its MSRP. If true, then undercutting the price is the only goal.

Interestingly, a few days before the news, I had stated in one of the ATS threads here that Caddy had a chance if they could undercut the 3 series, and allow many younger first time luxury buyers to enter this segment by starting with a Caddy. Apparently BMW saw the same threat.

The average 3 driver is getting older, in part because the price is getting higher, which tends to keep first timers away. Yet the luxury brands have to recruit those young drivers to stay in the game in the long run.
$4,000 is a big deal for a lot of people of all ages as is $33,000 price point.

Cadillac has its Buick. Acura has its Honda. Lexus has its Toyota. BMW has no step-down brand so it has to do the heavy lifting itself. Fortunately, there is enough differentiation in the 3 Series to make one variant different than another. It also makes the strategy of the various Lines come more clearly into focus. "If you want a Modern line or a Luxury line or the Technology package, you need a 328i, sir."

BJ
Zeichen311 commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yeah, some people think they're going down market. I see it more as if the 3 is getting back to it's roots.

People on this forum already talked about this, but back in the 80s and early 90s, you could get really stripped down versions of the 3...cloth seats, a crappy sound system, and not a lot of gadgets, but people loved them.
+1.
I'm all for washing away the status-symbol stigma acquired during the Yuppie era and allowing the basic goodness of the cars to once again dominate the brand image. The BMW CCA did not become the largest single-marque car club on the planet by spending decades telling anyone who would listen how a BMW would impress their neighbors. We told anyone who would listen how much a BMW would impress its driver. Like a game of telephone, the true message got distorted as it spread.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
+1.
I'm all for washing away the status-symbol stigma acquired during the Yuppie era and allowing the basic goodness of the cars to once again dominate the brand image. The BMW CCA did not become the largest single-marque car club on the planet by spending decades telling anyone who would listen how a BMW would impress their neighbors. We told anyone who would listen how much a BMW would impress its driver. Like a game of telephone, the true message got distorted as it spread.
That makes a lot of sense, and as enthusiast I can see why you're pleased that BMW is headed in this direction.

But there's a word of caution and it's a pretty big one. And that is that back 20 years ago if you bought a 3 Series you got the legendary tight sporty handling as standard equipment. Today, you have to pay for it. You need to get the Sport line and you need the DHP at a minimum. I love the handling in the new standard suspension, but that's because it's softer and easier for me to use in a crowded city with crappy roads like Manhattan.

Someone who is looking forward to an inexpensive 3 Series that gets 'back to its roots' will be sorely disappointed without these pricey options, and the loss of horsepower isn't very performance-enthusiastic either. BMW launched the 320i to be an inexpensive luxury car, not a grass roots pocket rocket. You want that legendary sporty ride, you have to pay for it. Pay a lot for it, in fact.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
+1.
I'm all for washing away the status-symbol stigma acquired during the Yuppie era and allowing the basic goodness of the cars to once again dominate the brand image. The BMW CCA did not become the largest single-marque car club on the planet by spending decades telling anyone who would listen how a BMW would impress their neighbors. We told anyone who would listen how much a BMW would impress its driver. Like a game of telephone, the true message got distorted as it spread.
But will the 180 hp impress or depress? The fact the 320i cannot be seen apart from a 328i or even 335i (with untrained eyes) gives many badge whores (who are more value oriented rather driving oriented) another chance.
Saintor commented:
January 15, 2013, 5:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
According to several articles, the 320i is BMW's direct response to the Caddy ATS 2.5L value proposition, by undercutting its MSRP. If true, then undercutting the price is the only goal.
The ATS is barely under radar. They are more serious competitors, like the A4 at 32500$. And it will allow them to jack the 328i MSRP and cash even more all around.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 5:07 pm

Back in the day, a 180hp 3 would be a dream come true. I don't even think the M variants hit 200hp.

But BJ's point about handling is fair.

Flashback to the 80s and people were buying 160hp 325s. Great handling; stripped down, not a lot of gadgets, and they were loved by enthusiasts.

They also became a status symbol in the 80s, because they were really out-of-reach for most people back then. Base price was low $30s back then, and you got a lot less for your money than you do now.

EDIT: Sort of interesting that the 320i is coming in with the same base price that the 1988 325 had.
beden1 commented:
January 15, 2013, 5:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Back in the day, a 180hp 3 would be a dream come true. I don't even think the M variants hit 200hp.

But BJ's point about handling is fair.

Flashback to the 80s and people were buying 160hp 325s. Great handling; stripped down, not a lot of gadgets, and they were loved by enthusiasts.

They also became a status symbol in the 80s, because they were really out-of-reach for most people back then. Base price was low $30s back then, and you got a lot less for your money than you do now.

EDIT: Sort of interesting that the 320i is coming in with the same base price that the 1988 325 had.
I thought this was interesting, describing my 1979 320i with 110 HP (the only 3 Series available in the US Market was a coupe at the time) In 1980, they modified the body and lowered the power to 100HP including their first catalytic converter. My 1979 had a lot of leg room for my 6'4" stature. When BMW made the changes to the 3 Series in 1980, I no longer fit as they made the interior smaller and cut off the ample leg room.

"In the mid 1970s, BMW faced the task of replacing its aging 2002 coupe. But the company also knew that the 2002 embodied the company's spirit. As such, the 2002's replacement would need to keep that spirit intact while modernizing in other respects.

BMW picked a ripe moment in history to introduce the first 3 Series generation, internally designated E21. The world was just coming off the shock of the oil embargo as the first one rolled off the Milbertshofen assembly line on May 2, 1975, and people who never would have considered a smaller car now found the idea of a fun and frugal machine irresistible. In 1974, BMW sold 184,330 cars, but bolstered by the European introduction of the 3 Series in 1975, worldwide sales reached 221,298. The 3 Series hit North America as a 1977 model, and that pushed BMW production over 290,000 that year and beyond 320,000 in 1978.

The only E21 model available Stateside was the 320i. It was marginally larger than the outgoing 2002 (at 100.9 inches, the 3's wheelbase was 2.5 inches longer and the car's 177.5-inch overall length was 1.5 inches longer), and that extra size imbued it with a more stable, yet still easygoing character. As a direct successor to the 2002, the 320i was still available only as a two-door and carried over most of the styling themes established by that car, such as the forward-leaning grille, clipped rear side windows and low beltline.

Under the skin, the car was an evolutionary step up from the 2002. Basic elements like the MacPherson strut front and trailing arm rear suspension and front disc/rear drum power braking system differed in detail and specification, but were similar in overall design. For power, the car had a 2.0-liter Bosch K-Jetronic fuel-injected inline-4 rated at 110 horsepower; it met emissions regulations without a catalytic converter. The standard transmission remained a Getrag four-speed manual, while a ZF three-speed automatic was optional.

The evolution of the American-market E21 320i was incremental. In 1980, the engine shrank to 1.8 liters (though the name remained 320i) and BMW added a three-way catalytic converter to the emissions control system. Though it now produced just 100 hp, the 1.8's performance deficit was ameliorated somewhat by the adoption of a five-speed manual transmission. In any event, this change did not dampen America's enthusiasm for the car, as sales continued to climb, spurred by BMW's growing reputation and a second oil embargo in 1979. As the last few E21s dribbled out of dealer showrooms in 1983, BMW had firmly established its 3, 5 and 7 Series sedan product mix and was ready to move all of its products progressively upmarket throughout the rest of the decade."
DavidM1975 commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:24 pm

Wow...very interesting read! Thanks for posting this!
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
But will the 180 hp impress or depress? The fact the 320i cannot be seen apart from a 328i or even 335i (with untrained eyes) gives many badge whores (who are more value oriented rather driving oriented) another chance.
I bet it will wipe the floor with the AtS 2.5 in all performance measures. It's a larger gap than comparing the two 2.os(328)
JoeFromPA commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:40 pm

The base 3-series has been putting out nearly 180hp (or more) for about 25 years and in many platforms weighing significantly less. The 180hp would be crap except it comes on from a very broad torque curve.

Put another way: the base 4-cylinder honda accords have been putting out about 180hp for almost a decade now

From an actual value-to-performance perspective, I'll only understand it if you get a nice bump in MPG. Otherwise it's just a deliberately de-tuned n26....?
Chris90 commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
According to several articles, the 320i is BMW's direct response to the Caddy ATS 2.5L value proposition, by undercutting its MSRP. If true, then undercutting the price is the only goal.
call me skeptical - this kind of move takes several years of planning, BMW was likely planning this before the ATS even came out.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The base 3-series has been putting out nearly 180hp (or more) for about 25 years and in many platforms weighing significantly less. The 180hp would be crap except it comes on from a very broad torque curve.

Put another way: the base 4-cylinder honda accords have been putting out about 180hp for almost a decade now

From an actual value-to-performance perspective, I'll only understand it if you get a nice bump in MPG. Otherwise it's just a deliberately de-tuned n26....?
Like I said, wait for the dyno.

Go dyno a 4 cylinder Accord and see 150whp and 145lbs of tq while this detuned N20 puts down 180whp and 225lbs of tq. That is a substantial difference. But as long as BMW is so pessimistic with their crank ratings, it won't look so on paper.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
call me skeptical - this kind of move takes several years of planning, BMW was likely planning this before the ATS even came out.
How so?

The car already sold for over a year in other parts of the country. Mechanically this car is 99.8% identical to it's US 328 counter, so almost nothing to train it's techs on.

Whole new platforms take several years. Something like this, where the ATS specs were everywhere 8 months ago, yeah-that's enough time.

Did you not see how Honda got skewered by the mags with the '12 Civic and had NEW tooling done with bumpers, lights, interior etc all for the '13 model year. You think BMW can't take an existing car and get EPA and the like done(for all you know EPA numbers being identical to the 328 might mean a half assed speed through) in under a year?
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 6:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
call me skeptical - this kind of move takes several years of planning, BMW was likely planning this before the ATS even came out.
This car isn't new. It was always available in other countries. What's new is that it's hitting the US market.

There were similar lower cost e90 class models available all over the globe too, just not in the US.

But I agree that this was probably in the plan all along. They probably decided a couple years back that the 320 would hit the US shores in 2013. They didn't just come up with this idea yesterday. The ATS took several years of development too...
bzcat commented:
January 15, 2013, 7:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
While I definitely think that more choice is better for the consumer, what is the motivation for the 320i other than lower entry price? It might make sense if cars were taxed by horsepower.
I explained this a couple of pages back.

Some of you are really over thinking this.

The existence of 320i allows BMW to move up the lease entry point on the 328i. Even by as little as $20 or $30 a month... at the volume they are doing, this is a significant profit driver. When you introduce a lower price option on an otherwise established product line, it is usually to signal to the consumers that the new middle priced option is the one they should go for. It's a tried and tested pricing strategy. You slice and dice the current 328i buyers... the ones looking for the stripper model will be very happy with 320i and the one that prefers lots of options will see that 328i still offers a compelling value proposition.

For sure BMW will carefully controlled the availability of 320i to the point so that it doesn't overtake the sale of more profitable 328i.

The end game here is raise the actual residual and/or lower the stated residual on the 328i (i.e. close the residual gap) so BMWFS doesn't have to eat $3,000 on each lease return.

Now, if BMW end up poaching a few customers from Cadillac or Mercedes with a cheaper 320i, that's just gravy on top from their perspective.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 7:18 pm

If you find the 320 to be so shocking, just wait until the 340 replaces the 335 in a couple months...

LOL!
BentZero commented:
January 15, 2013, 7:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
$4,000 is a big deal for a lot of people of all ages as is $33,000 price point.

Cadillac has its Buick. Acura has its Honda. Lexus has its Toyota. BMW has no step-down brand so it has to do the heavy lifting itself. Fortunately, there is enough differentiation in the 3 Series to make one variant different than another. It also makes the strategy of the various Lines come more clearly into focus. "If you want a Modern line or a Luxury line or the Technology package, you need a 328i, sir."

BJ
For Honda and Toyota those were steps up. I think people are freaking out because they feel that the mere existence of the 320 makes their status penis shrink. Its understandable. On the outside most people won't know the difference. Especially when people debadge their cars. Now their 320 looks like a 335 sans the dual exhaust......plus everything else that makes the 335 a better car. Joe Blow on the street won't know though. He'll just wonder how that twenty-something can afford that "luxury car".

I think it's a smart move for BMW though. Why not get customers in at a lower price point now and then welcome them with open arms when they earn more money and inevitably spend more on their next BMW.
krispykreme commented:
January 15, 2013, 8:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post
It allows those on the fence for a 328, an option to still get into a new BMW. I still say, if you can't afford the 3 series, drop to a 1, or find something else to drive.
Sounds like a cocky 335i owner.

320i would be a good commuter car, even a good choice for my college bound daughter. We were set on X1 for her. But with 320i, it may be better choice.
krispykreme commented:
January 15, 2013, 8:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The 320 is already sold in other countries so it's kind of a no brainer to bring it here. It's just a detuned N20.
Its not detuned. The piston head is different. See below link. If you can swap out the piston and upgrade the tuning. Then you have a 328i.

http://club.autohome.com*****bbs/thr...7972169-1.html
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 8:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispykreme View Post
Its not detuned. The piston head is different. See below link. If you can swap out the piston and upgrade the tuning. Then you have a 328i.

http://club.autohome.com*****bbs/thr...7972169-1.html
Detuned, I did not say there were no hardware differences. Could have put a smaller turbo on it too.
captainaudio commented:
January 15, 2013, 8:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Back in the day, a 180hp 3 would be a dream come true. I don't even think the M variants hit 200hp.

But BJ's point about handling is fair.


Flashback to the 80s and people were buying 160hp 325s. Great handling; stripped down, not a lot of gadgets, and they were loved by enthusiasts.

They also became a status symbol in the 80s, because they were really out-of-reach for most people back then. Base price was low $30s back then, and you got a lot less for your money than you do now.

EDIT: Sort of interesting that the 320i is coming in with the same base price that the 1988 325 had.
I am somewhat confused about the whole handling issue. I know the sport suspension was an option on the E9x. Was that not the case on the earlier models (E46, etc.) How many different suspension options are there on the F30. I was under the impression that you either bot the standard suspension of the sport suspension (same as on the E9x where the sport suspension was standard on the M-Sport, the E92 and the 335is and optional on the E90 and E93. As far as I know it was the same sport suspension.

I know that there is now an adaptive M Suspenion available on the F30, which was not available on any iteration of the E9x, but are their other options as well. I have heard that the F30 suspensions are not as harsh as the E9x (particularly the sport suspension) but I have not heard that the base F30 does not handle as well as the base E9x.

I have very little experience with the non-sport suspension on the E9x (one brief test drive in a 328i Cabrio) and have never driven any iteration of the F30. I have a reasonable amount of time behind the wheel of a 335is and an E90 M3 with the adaptive M-Package (which I liked a lot). At this point I have had non-RFTs and Koni FSDs on the 335i for so long I really don't remember how it felt in stock form, but I do remember that I hated the way it drove in stock form and am satisfied the way it drives in the form it is in now.

CA
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I am somewhat confused about the whole handling issue. I know the sport suspension was an option on the E9x. Was that not the case on the earlier models (E46, etc.) How many different suspension options are there on the F30. I was under the impression that you either bot the standard suspension of the sport suspension (same as on the E9x where the sport suspension was standard on the M-Sport, the E92 and the 335is and optional on the E90 and E93. As far as I know it was the same sport suspension.

I know that there is now an adaptive M Suspenion available on the F30, which was not available on any iteration of the E9x, but are their other options as well. I have heard that the F30 suspensions are not as harsh as the E9x (particularly the sport suspension) but I have not heard that the base F30 does not handle as well as the base E9x.

I have very little experience with the non-sport suspension on the E9x (one brief test drive in a 328i Cabrio) and have never driven any iteration of the F30. I have a reasonable amount of time behind the wheel of a 335is and an E90 M3 with the adaptive M-Package (which I liked a lot). At this point I have had non-RFTs and Koni FSDs on the 335i for so long I really don't remember how it felt in stock form, but I do remember that I hated the way it drove in stock form and am satisfied the way it drives in the form it is in now.

CA
Some make the argument that the base F30 (including luxury and modern lines) just doesn't handle as well as 3 series classes from the past. The sport line is a little more $$$ and then DHP is even more $$$$. But when I drove a modern line with no DHP, I thought it was great.

By the way, the 320 is on BMWUSA.COM now. It's rated at 7.1 seconds in 0 to 60. Not bad.

It looks you can configure a nice 320 with premium, Nav, sport package, lighting package, driver assist, heated seats for about $44,000. This puts this car well out of reach for a whole lot of people. So it isn't like people currently shopping for a Chevy Malibu, Ford Focus, or Nissan Sentra will suddenly buy one of these instead.

No HK available...
niddin commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:39 pm

The thing I was most excited when I saw this is that it looks like in some of the marketing materials the car is in a deep sea blue. Sadly that looks like just marketing, makes me sad.

And has anyone actually optioned out on their website? The premium package is totally different, and doesn't include leather. Includes a lot of things that are standard on the 328/335. The choices are interesting to say the least. But on the positive for not getting the sport suspension with the sport package they give you a discount if you have xDrive.

But now the real question, will it have the new or old Nav when it comes out in spring?
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
On the outside most people won't know the difference. Especially when people debadge their cars. Now their 320 looks like a 335 sans the dual exhaust......plus everything else that makes the 335 a better car. Joe Blow on the street won't know though. He'll just wonder how that twenty-something can afford that "luxury car".
I want to rebadge my car. I see my trunk lid and it looks very boring now. Who cares about Joe Blow, I much rather impress the women coming out of the Gucci store.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:47 pm

The $1300 Sport Package is awesome, you get the suspension, 18" wheels and the M-Sport steering wheel. I hope this becomes an nice alternative to the "lines" to bump up the base 328.
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The $1300 Sport Package is awesome, you get the suspension, 18" wheels and the M-Sport steering wheel. I hope this becomes an nice alternative to the "lines" to bump up the base 328.
That could be seen as the "true enthusiast" config, specially with 3 pedals.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
That could be seen as the "true enthusiast" config, specially with 3 pedals.
Then I would get a tune to bring close to 328 power for under $400 and a proper exhaust.
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 9:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by niddin View Post
But on the positive for not getting the sport suspension with the sport package they give you a discount if you have xDrive.
It looks like the sport package is basically the same as what you got on the e90. You get the sport suspension, summer tires on 18" wheels, plus the M steering wheel, which I am not even getting on my 335 sport line that I just ordered.

Honestly, this 320 is a real nice option for folks, and this is coming from someone that just ordered a loaded 335 a couple days ago.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I am somewhat confused about the whole handling issue. I know the sport suspension was an option on the E9x. Was that not the case on the earlier models (E46, etc.) How many different suspension options are there on the F30. I was under the impression that you either bot the standard suspension of the sport suspension (same as on the E9x where the sport suspension was standard on the M-Sport, the E92 and the 335is and optional on the E90 and E93. As far as I know it was the same sport suspension.

I know that there is now an adaptive M Suspenion available on the F30, which was not available on any iteration of the E9x, but are their other options as well. I have heard that the F30 suspensions are not as harsh as the E9x (particularly the sport suspension) but I have not heard that the base F30 does not handle as well as the base E9x.

I have very little experience with the non-sport suspension on the E9x (one brief test drive in a 328i Cabrio) and have never driven any iteration of the F30. I have a reasonable amount of time behind the wheel of a 335is and an E90 M3 with the adaptive M-Package (which I liked a lot). At this point I have had non-RFTs and Koni FSDs on the 335i for so long I really don't remember how it felt in stock form, but I do remember that I hated the way it drove in stock form and am satisfied the way it drives in the form it is in now.

CA
My impressions:

In order to get rid of the very firm ride, the feeling of every street imperfection, and the pothole explosions that made my kids nauseous, they softened the suspension brilliantly compared to my E90. Potholes glide under the car like butter, but in hard turns the wheels stay absolutely planted, like glue. The tradeoff, it seems, is body roll. Not in everyday driving, not in quick lane-changes on the highway, but in really spirited and severe curves the F30 body leans where it didn't in the E90. Now, I had an E90 M-Sport with XDrive which theoretically has the standard suspension. Perhaps the XDrive is what kept my car from showing any body roll, maybe it was the sport seats, could be an illusion. But my first impressions on my first F30 test drive were a) the car is much faster, b) the torque is crazy better, c) the wheels are still very planted, d) the body leans in severely harsh curves, e) all the pothole explosions are gone.

While I don't own the F30 Sport suspension, the general consensus seems to be that BMW softened the ride too, it's far more civil, but it's not as taut as the E90. Combined with the vague steering that some report, it's not as good as the E90 Sport.

As far as the third iteration, the Adaptive M Suspension, I've read that as-is it's the same as the standard suspension, but when you hit the Comfort button it gets even more soft and when you hit the Sport button it gets even more sporty. Others can comment there.

Lastly is the XDrive suspension which, I've read, is the softest of all the suspensions, even the Base, but with the Adaptive M Suspension gets right back in business.

But....the main point.....any 320i buyer who expects to get the classic BMW taut and punchy Sport suspension without ponying up the cash for the Sport line will be disappointed.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
For Honda and Toyota those were steps up. I think people are freaking out because they feel that the mere existence of the 320 makes their status penis shrink. Its understandable. On the outside most people won't know the difference. Especially when people debadge their cars. Now their 320 looks like a 335 sans the dual exhaust......plus everything else that makes the 335 a better car. Joe Blow on the street won't know though. He'll just wonder how that twenty-something can afford that "luxury car".

I think it's a smart move for BMW though. Why not get customers in at a lower price point now and then welcome them with open arms when they earn more money and inevitably spend more on their next BMW.
There's no question that BMW is selling-out a bit of status for a money-grab. Those of us in the know will realize who spent a lot of coin and who didn't, but that really doesn't matter. The important thing is that BMW stays successful and brings in a lot of revenue so they can continue to hire the best designers and engineers and create the best products possible.

The 3 Series has always been two-cars-in-one. Now it's three:

A $50,000 German luxury car.

A $37,000 Entry-level luxury car.

A $30,000 top-of-the line non-luxury car.

To us, we can keep track of it all. It's easy to see the differences between a Line and a no-Line car. The badge on the trunk tells the rest of the story. To Mr. & Mrs. Camry, they just see more BMW's on the road, makes them think there are more people than ever living the dream. Nothing wrong with that.

BJ
tturedraider commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Back in the day, a 180hp 3 would be a dream come true. I don't even think the M variants hit 200hp.

But BJ's point about handling is fair.

Flashback to the 80s and people were buying 160hp 325s. Great handling; stripped down, not a lot of gadgets, and they were loved by enthusiasts.

They also became a status symbol in the 80s, because they were really out-of-reach for most people back then. Base price was low $30s back then, and you got a lot less for your money than you do now.

EDIT: Sort of interesting that the 320i is coming in with the same base price that the 1988 325 had.
caveat - I'm behind on this thread so all of what I'm about to post may have already been cussed and discussed.


The E46 325 had 184 hp at 6,000 rpms and only 175 lb-ft of torque, not until 3,500 rpms.

The E46 325 sold like hotcakes. As is always true with the "lesser" 3er approximately 75% of E46 3ers sold were 325s. They certainly were not eschewed. In 2001 Car & Driver reported 0 - 60 mph in 7.0 seconds with the manual.

So, now the 320i - 180 hp at 5,000 rpms and 200 lb-ft of torque from 1,250 - 4,500 rpms. BMW reports 0 - 60 mph in 7.1 seconds with either the manual or the automatic.
(edit - on BMWUSA they are reporting 181 hp, and 184 lb-ft tq for the manual and 250 lb-ft tq for the automatic.)


The fact that BMWNA is putting the M Sport steering wheel in the Sport package model indicates to me they will probably do the same thing with 328 and 335 Sport line models at some point in the very near future.


I just priced a 320i sport package model and an equivalently equipped 328i Sport line. The 320i was $3,675 less at $44,270 v $47,945. I included the premium pkg, cold weather pkg, lighting pkg, alarm, BMW Assist/enhanced Bluetooth, PDC, rear view camera, and leather as a stand alone option on the 320i.

For value shoppers one benefit the 320i has is that the premium package does not include leather on the 320i, so they can still get all the goodies in the premium package and save an additional $1,450 if they would prefer to stick with leatherette. I'm sure there will be some Bimmerfesters who will be envious of this.


I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves.


Hopefully BMWNA will make the HK option available on the 320i.

I like the sport package on the 320i - $1,300 rather than the $2,500 for the Sport line. All the sport package features without the extra money for the Sport line trim items on the 328 and 335.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post

I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves.
No question, this should be the best-selling BMW in America.

And while we debate engines, the reality is that most car buyers just want a new car and they want it off the lot. I can't tell you how many 535i M-Sport and 335i M-Sport cars I see on the road every day driven by 55 year old moms. They're not enthusiasts, just impatient buyers.

The 320i does three things from a business standpoint. First, clearly, is it sets a new pricepoint to get more customers into the showrooms. Second, it allows people to trade up to a 328i for some of the goodies you can't get on the 320i, will sell more of those too. Thirdly, for those that come in for the $299 lease special who don't want to wait three months for delivery, they can be coaxed into $349 a month for the 328i sitting on the lot and ready to drive away today.

It's as much a marketing ploy to drive traffic to dealerships at competitors expense as it is a way to sell cheap BMW's.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
The ATS is barely under radar.
Caddy has been taunting the BMW 3 series with the ATS for almost two years, in part because of the value proposition of the ATS 2.5L. Don't for a minute believe BMW is not paying attention.

Last year, one day after GM published its ATS specs, BMW modified its F30's specs on its website, in particular the 0-60 times were much faster than the day before. You think it was a fluke?

Now the F30 has a base model that undercuts the price of the ATS 2.5L by $545, one day after ATS gets the Car of the Year thing. Maybe it is another coincidence you say, but are you a betting person?

Watch GM doing their part to play this game. It used to be they had the ATS 2.5L for $299/mo. in the commercials, now they have the ATS 2.0T for $299/mo.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Caddy has been taunting the BMW 3 series with the ATS for almost two years, in part because of the value proposition of the ATS 2.5L. Don't for a minute believe BMW is not paying attention.

Last year, one day after GM published its ATS specs, BMW modified its F30's specs on its website, in particular the 0-60 times were much faster than the day before. You think it was a fluke?

Now the F30 has a base model that undercuts the price of the ATS 2.5L by $545, one day after ATS gets the Car of the Year thing. Maybe it is another coincidence you say, but are you a betting person?
Nope. It's the opposite.

BMW has the 320i already in production, not like this is some new car. They see that Cadillac is advertising a cheap RWD car to the masses and attempting to create a new market. So they drop their existing 320i in there for a year, toe in the water, see how it goes, and kill two birds with one stone: a) capitalize on GM's advertising awareness and b) torpedo Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus. Good time to do it too- BMW just had the best year ever, lots of numbers to anniversary, might as well stack the deck with a sure-thing.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Nope. It's the opposite.

BMW has the 320i already in production, not like this is some new car. They see that Cadillac is advertising a cheap RWD car to the masses and attempting to create a new market. So they drop their existing 320i in there for a year, toe in the water, see how it goes, and kill two birds with one stone: a) capitalize on GM's advertising awareness and b) torpedo Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus.

BJ
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. They could have brought the 320i here long ago, why now, on this very day? BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine If you like to disagree, then say something different, of your own.

For anyone who is not clear already, I am speculating, I am not saying I know it. We are all in some way speculating, just some have basis, others are pure speculations.
tturedraider commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine
Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.
Jon Shafer commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Very interesting thread. I think this might be the only country where consumers complain about having more choices (see some posts above).

By the way, there will be minimum 4 engine choices when new diesel specs are made public. Great time to be shopping for a new BMW 3 series.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Bimmer App
I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less. The caliber of qualified CA's is sure to continue to drop.
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.
One incidence doesn't lead to a good speculation, but a patent of events can.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 10:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. They could have brought the 320i here long ago, why now, on this very day? BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine If you like to disagree, then say something different, of your own.
I don't follow the comings and goings of cars I will never buy, so no, I don't know what cat and mouse game you're dreaming BMW was playing with a company that makes a car that doesn't sell. I don't know what a 2.0T or a 2.5L is either; please don't tell me, it doesn't matter.

There is no way that BMW would view the Cadillac as a legitimate threat. Current sales bear that out in spades. You think BMW is secretly trying to undermine Cadillac. I think BMW is simply being opportunistic. That's the "opposite" I refer to.

BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
Jon Shafer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves..
Contrary to popular belief, dealers don't get to pick which models they want to order, and how many. BMWNA controls everything. We never seem to get enough of what is selling hot until they cool off, for example F30 335. For the first 12 months post launch, months could go by without a single allocation at smaller dealers. Now we are getting a few, the bulk being SA. As a dealer I am not excited about the launch of a strippy F30. To me this makes no sense at all other than oversaturating an already heavy supply of product. Gross profit averages for dealers will continue to plummet. That's ok, because every deal is a "mini" already (minimum commission).
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Shafer View Post
I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less. The caliber of qualified CA's is sure to continue to drop.
Just like Caddy using the 2.5L as a talking point, but mainly to sell the 2.0T, BMW is no different. The 320i is not any cheaper to manufacture than the base 328i, why give up $4k profit when you are selling the F30 by $10k a month?

For one, get the young buyers in the family, who otherwise will not even consider walking in the BMW showroom, for another, get people in the door with the $30k price, and sell them 328i or 335i.
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
Or it could be:

C250 vs. 320i
C300 vs. 328i
C350 vs. 335i
C63 vs. M3/4

CLA may be up against the 1-/2-series.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.


Meet the Mercedes Benz CLA Class. A $30,000 4-door entry level German luxury sedan. The existing C Class starts at $36,000.

I don't know, might be that the Germans are going after each other, not really caring at all about the failing sad American wannabe.

BJ
krash commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
caveat - I'm behind on this thread so all of what I'm about to post may have already been cussed and discussed.


The E46 325 had 184 hp at 6,000 rpms and only 175 lb-ft of torque, not until 3,500 rpms.

The E46 325 sold like hotcakes. As is always true with the "lesser" 3er approximately 75% of E46 3ers sold were 325s. They certainly were not eschewed. In 2001 Car & Driver reported 0 - 60 mph in 7.0 seconds with the manual.
Yes, and I was going back even further than that. I was going back to the early to mid 80s. Back in the E30 days. I just graduated from college, and I really wanted a BMW. I just got my career started. I was a computer programmer (fortran, LOL!). I vividly remember taking them for test drives, and reading about them in Road and Track.

I also remember not being able to afford one. At $30k plus, they simply were out of my price range. Anyway, back then, they didn't even have close to 180hp. I recall them being around 160HP or less.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Or it could be:

C250 vs. 320i
C300 vs. 328i
C350 vs. 335i
C63 vs. M3/4

CLA may be up against the 1-/2-series.
Sure, that works too.

Or, could be, Mercedes Benz broke the $30,000 4-door barrier; BMW is just competing with it.

I don't think there will be a 1 Series Sedan. Doubt highly that BMW wants a competing $30,000 Sedan to the 320i or to create a trashy $25,000 pricepoint. Methinks the dream of a 1 Series Sedan with E46 dimensions isn't happening. I think the 320i is it.

BJ
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Meet the Mercedes Benz CLA Class. A $30,000 4-door entry level German luxury sedan. The existing C Class starts at $36,000.

I don't know, might be that the Germans are going after each other, not really caring at all about the failing sad American wannabe.

BJ
And BMW has always been less expensive than MB, model-for-model.

The failing wannabe might stand a better chance with a V model for people who like cars that look like cartoons.
SilverTE90 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:10 pm

Pricing has gotten Ridiculous ..
My E46 29.5k
E90 33k OTD .
I almost sheet to see a 328i 4 cyl for 37K Before options ?
Imo
328 34 k
320 27k
Meanwhile you can get a turbo regal / verano for 10k less and smoke these cars .
Regards ,
DL
Chris90 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
How so?

The car already sold for over a year in other parts of the country. Mechanically this car is 99.8% identical to it's US 328 counter, so almost nothing to train it's techs on.

Whole new platforms take several years. Something like this, where the ATS specs were everywhere 8 months ago, yeah-that's enough time.

Did you not see how Honda got skewered by the mags with the '12 Civic and had NEW tooling done with bumpers, lights, interior etc all for the '13 model year. You think BMW can't take an existing car and get EPA and the like done(for all you know EPA numbers being identical to the 328 might mean a half assed speed through) in under a year?
When did BMW last have 3 models of the 3 series sedan in the US? I think it's a pure Cadillac fanboy fantasy to think BMW would make that kind of major policy change just in reaction to some POS 2.5L ATS.

This is just part of BMW's plan to greatly expand volume, it's not a reaction to the #9 player in the luxury sedan business.
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I don't think there will be a 1 Series Sedan. Doubt highly that BMW wants a competing $30,000 Sedan to the 320i or to create a trashy $25,000 pricepoint. Methinks the dream of a 1 Series Sedan with E46 dimensions isn't happening. I think the 320i is it.

BJ
My brain wants to agree but my heart does not.
dtc100 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I don't follow the comings and goings of cars I will never buy, so no, I don't know what cat and mouse game you're dreaming BMW was playing with a company that makes a car that doesn't sell. I don't know what a 2.0T or a 2.5L is either; please don't tell me, it doesn't matter.
If you don't even know the facts, then how can you form any opinion? Oh wait, you had make your own facts I still remember the 98% fact.

Quote:
There is no way that BMW would view the Cadillac as a legitimate threat. Current sales bear that out in spades. You think BMW is secretly trying to undermine Cadillac. I think BMW is simply being opportunistic. That's the "opposite" I refer to.
This is exactly why BMW is at the top, they don't ignore any potential threat. Caddy has been the loudest taunting BMW in the past year or two, they need to shut them up, while at the same time convince people like you they could care less about the ATS. Not a difficult thing to do with fanboys, but BMW knows they need to sell non-fanboys.

Quote:
BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
Of course there are other things to consider. But the CLA is not necessarily targeting the exact same market. Yes there will be cross shoppers between F30 and CLA, but if BMW is really serious about the CLA, they would have worked on a new 4-door 1 series model, but FWD. I think they will though. From the intial impression, the CLA could grab a lot of drivers moving up from Camry, Accord, Altima, Civic, Corolla and VWs...who don't know what is the point of an RWD.
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTE90 View Post
Meanwhile you can get a turbo regal / verano for 10k less and smoke these cars .
Regards ,
DL
Go ahead and smoke me in those cars as you drive alone and I have a fine foxy blonde riding shotgun (and three more in the back).
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
My brain wants to agree but my heart does not.
I'm sorry. Truly, I am.

I didn't expect this 320i announcement at all. Even MB and their CLA is a different car than the C, different chassis, making it look a bit like a Gran Coupe. I just don't see how a 1 Sedan fits here.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If you don't even know the facts, then how can you form any opinion? Oh wait, you had make your own facts I still remember the 98% fact.

This is exactly why BMW is at the top, they don't ignore any potential threat. Caddy has been the loudest taunting BMW in the past year or two, they need to shut them up, while at the same time convince people like you they could care less about the ATS. Not a difficult thing to do with fanboys, but BMW knows they need to sell non-fanboys.

Of course there are other things to consider. But the CLA is not necessarily targeting the exact same market. Yes there will be cross shoppers between F30 and CLA, but if BMW is really serious about the CLA, they would have worked on a new 4-door 1 series model, but FWD. I think they will though. From the intial impression, the CLA could grab a lot of drivers moving up from Camry, Accord, Altima, Civic, Corolla and VWs...who don't know what is the point of an RWD.
I know how much you like to make everything about the ATS, but be real. The thing isn't selling. It's a pig. A pig for 80 year old women.

When your primary competitor drops a $30,000 el-cheapo luxury car into the market, you have to react. BMW saw the CLA, knew that it could hurt the 3 Series, boom, 320i. Hit a few buttons, ship 'em south of Canada, MB threat neutralized.

BMW responding to Cadillac and the ATS is like McDonald's responding to Michael's Burger Castle and their house special, the Big Mike.

BJ
beden1 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I know how much you like to make everything about the ATS, but be real. The thing isn't selling. It's a pig. A pig for 80 year old women.

When your primary competitor drops a $30,000 el-cheapo luxury car into the market, you have to react. BMW saw the CLA, knew that it could hurt the 3 Series, boom, 320i. Hit a few buttons, ship 'em south of Canada, MB threat neutralized.
BMW responding to Cadillac and the ATS is like McDonald's responding to Michael's Burger Castle and their house special, the Big Mike.

BJ
The MB CLA is not "neutralized" a bit. It will still sell very well, IMO, because it's a very sexy ride.
SilverTE90 commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:51 pm

408racer. ,
So you have to purchase your dates ? Hmm

DL
408Racer commented:
January 15, 2013, 11:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTE90 View Post
408racer. ,
So you have to purchase your dates ? Hmm

DL
I don't want to keep them forever so I lease.......


....a car that helps me snag the shallow and materialistic babes.
normsbimmer commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Regarding the 335i, your guess is as good as mine. One way to look at this is that the 4 Series is a step up line as well. So perhaps the 335i will only be available in the 4 and not the 3. You never know.

$4,000 is a big deal as is $33,000 price point. Cadillac has its Buick. Acura has its Honda. Lexus has its Toyota. BMW has no step-down brand so it has to do the heavy lifting itself. What I thought might be the 2 Series sedan may never happen now. What would that cost, $25,000?

Very interesting indeed.

BJ
I thought MINI is a BMW step down brand.
408Racer commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by normsbimmer View Post
I thought MINI is a BMW step down brand.
That may have been the intent but I have yet to see anyone make the walk of shame from BMW to the Mini store when they realize they can't afford a 328...they usually do the step down to Lexus and Infiniti (and make themselves feel better for not having to be seen in a Toyota or Nissan).
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by normsbimmer View Post
I thought MINI is a BMW step down brand.
Family of 4 in a Mini?

It's a college girl car.

BJ
justinnum1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:15 am

you can get staggered 18's summer tires on a 320i(sport pkg) but cant get them on a 328 or 335(sport line) lulz
beden1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Family of 4 in a Mini?

It's a college girl car.

BJ
College girls drive E90 and F30 328i(s). Drive into a college parking lot sometime and see for yourself.
mr_clueless commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
you can get staggered 18's summer tires on a 320i(sport pkg) but cant get them on a 328 or 335(sport line) lulz
Wonder if it gets the m-sport's pads as well since it gets the steering and short throw shifter.

Overall I think it'll add a lot more confusion to the buying process.
beden1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
you can get staggered 18's summer tires on a 320i(sport pkg) but cant get them on a 328 or 335(sport line) lulz
I have not looked at the options list for the 320i yet, but I would keep it simple on the options. Get an iPod connection and blue tooth, save money by not getting the GPS, and put the savings into decent sport wheels/tire combo, and, see if BMW could install a dual exhaust at the port.

I would definitely not get a leather interior. Keep it simple and fun.
justinnum1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I have not looked at the options list for the 320i yet, but I would keep it simple on the options. Get an iPod connection and blue tooth, save money by not getting the GPS, and put the savings into decent sport wheels/tire combo, and, see if BMW could install a dual exhaust at the port.

I would definitely not get a leather interior. Keep it simple and fun.
i would have to get leather, my ass sweats like crazy.

My sister is ready to get out of her e90, i will have to tell her about this. she doesn't need more power.
bayoucity commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
you can get staggered 18's summer tires on a 320i(sport pkg) but cant get them on a 328 or 335(sport line) lulz
ALso, the sport pack is $300 less on F30 320i xDrive. It must be the lack of M sport suspension.

It's quite a bargain.





408Racer commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
College girls drive E90 and F30 328i(s). Drive into a college parking lot sometime and see for yourself.
Thanks for the tip!
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I know how much you like to make everything about the ATS, but be real. The thing isn't selling. It's a pig. A pig for 80 year old women.
...
BJ
First off, based on the recent ATS driver survey, the average age of the ATS drivers is lower than that of the 3 series drivers. Of course facts never get in your way.

If in a few month ATS sales goes 5k+, you eat your words, if it stays at below 3k, I eat my words. Anywhere between 3k and 5k, we both have not much to say.

The question is not if you might have to eat your words, or if I might eat mine, we both have that risk, the question is, how lucky do you feel when you place your bet.

Just be glad BMW is not taking any chances. If they had fanboys like you making plans for them, they'd be eating dust by now.
normsbimmer commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No worries there. It will just make less-fortunate people think there are more of us now.

BJ
easy there BJ. lol

Class>Swag
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
ALso, the sport pack is $300 less on F30 320i xDrive. It must be the lack of M sport suspension.

It's quite a bargain.





M sport suspension is included in the sport pack.
bayoucity commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
M sport suspension is included in the sport pack.
Not on the 320i xDrive, hence $300 difference.
Zeichen311 commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That makes a lot of sense, and as enthusiast I can see why you're pleased that BMW is headed in this direction.

But there's a word of caution and it's a pretty big one. And that is that back 20 years ago if you bought a 3 Series you got the legendary tight sporty handling as standard equipment. ... You want that legendary sporty ride, you have to pay for it. Pay a lot for it, in fact.
Ah. Yes. But. You will note I did not mention anything about tight sporty handling, and certainly not as an opposite quality to a comfortable ride. As captainaudio has pointed out on many occasions, we can have both and we expect BMW (and by extension, a BMW) to deliver--but that's somewhat beside my point.

We've been in the midst of an automotive arms race of sorts for the last decade or more. The basic standards of safety, maneuverability and efficiency are now so high--and have been for a while--that manufacturers pile on near-ridiculous levels of gadgetry, horsepower and luxury (soft-close doors, anyone? heated/cooled cup holders?) simply to keep trumping the competition. In the US at least, the focus seems to have become pitching to the buyer how you have more stuff than Brand X, not how you are different from Brand X.

The problem is that among the premium brands, all three attributes have been escalating more or less in lockstep. The 3er (any BMW, really) is bigger and more luxurious and more powerful and more gadget-laden than its predecessors (and "lesser" cars, whatever those are)...when all it really needs to be, to justify that price and carry the torch of the BMW brand, is better: Better to drive. Day in, day out, in widely varying conditions and applications. Not necessarily faster, or quicker, or sharper-handling, or cushier or prettier or even more tech-laden, but better balanced. Easy to control. Forgiving to an indifferent driver, responsive to an enthusiast. Not fatiguing on long trips. In short, the Ultimate Driving Machine--not in the sense of being dominant over all others, but in being your most likely pick if you could only choose one.

The failed "Joy" ad campaign tried to convey that. The German tagline, »Freude am Fahren« didn't quite translate but that's what it's really about. That's what I mean by getting back to the roots. I think there is room to strip away some of the beat-the-other-guy "moreness" and re-expose the core attributes of a BMW to a wider audience. It will still cost more, it will still be aspirational, it will still be hard to explain to someone who's never owned one why you go bonkers for it, why it's worth the price...but more buyers will be able to find out for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Shafer View Post
I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less.
That does temper my enthusiasm for a broader line somewhat. It's a shame BMW's efforts to entice/force/retrain US buyers to prefer custom orders over buying from stock do not seem to be working.

One thought, though: Compared the E46, I can easily point out a half-dozen or more small changes in the E90 and F30 that give direct evidence of BMW NA's struggle to hold the 3er at a competitive price point. I am sure there are more that escaped my notice. Despite the sales volumes, it seems the cars have been creeping too far upmarket for their own good. Perhaps a new entry-level model within the Series will offset that trend. As another poster noted, it seems to be working for the 5 Series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Meet the Mercedes Benz CLA Class. A $30,000 4-door entry level German luxury sedan. ... I don't know, might be that the Germans are going after each other, not really caring at all about the failing sad American wannabe.
That is a fine-looking car...except for those enormous scoops. Is this the new styling trend for sporty sedans--intakes that can engulf armadillos whole? Seems rather unnecessary, especially here in the Northeast where we have no armadillos, only raccoons, 'possums and skunks. All that fur just gums up the works, and I'm sure I needn't elaborate on skunks.
brkf commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Shafer View Post
I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less. The caliber of qualified CA's is sure to continue to drop.
320i will be the volume seller as long as it's stocked; if it's just a come on car then that'll piss off buyer. Most people don't need or want the power of the 328i (let alone 335i). This car appeals to directly why most people buy the 3 series in the first place: branding.
captainaudio commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
That may have been the intent but I have yet to see anyone make the walk of shame from BMW to the Mini store when they realize they can't afford a 328...they usually do the step down to Lexus and Infiniti (and make themselves feel better for not having to be seen in a Toyota or Nissan).
If you can't afford a 328 you very likely can't afford a Lexus. Both Lexus entry level models (the ES and the IS) have base MSRPs very close to the price of a base 328 ($36,100 and $35,065 respectively) and several thousand dollars higher than the new 320. If you check all the option boxes the BMW will have a higher MSRP. The other two Lexus Sedans (GS and LS) begin in price above where the 328 ends so I doubt too many drivers of $85,000 Lexus LS are ashamed that they are not being seen in a BMW 328. If your motivation for choosing BMW over Lexus is that you simply want a Roundel on the car if you can afford a Lexus you can afford a BMW. The same holds true with Infiniti whose sedans start at $37,000.

Mini is a completely different type of car and I doubt too many people are cross shopping them with either BMW, Infiniti or Lexus.

CA
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 3:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I don't think there will be a 1 Series Sedan. Doubt highly that BMW wants a competing $30,000 Sedan to the 320i or to create a trashy $25,000 pricepoint. Methinks the dream of a 1 Series Sedan with E46 dimensions isn't happening. I think the 320i is it.

BJ
It'll be a 2 series gran coupe - and it'll likely cost as much or more than a 320i. BMW will sell a lot of them.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 16, 2013, 3:51 am

One compelling feature the 320i offers, a Sport Package. Any word if we're going to see this being offered throughout all of the Lines?
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 5:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
One compelling feature the 320i offers, a Sport Package. Any word if we're going to see this being offered throughout all of the Lines?
There is a sport package. It's the sport line. Plus, you can get DHP on all the lines already. This gives you the sport suspension and more.

I really dont see them negating the sport line or the line concept in general by offering a redundant sport package anytime in the near future. Unless they drop the lines altogether for the 328 and 335, which seems doubtful.

The big question is the M steering wheel. Will that be available on the sport line in the future?

Getting the M steering wheel as part of the sport package is a huge win for the 320 folks.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 5:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by normsbimmer View Post
I thought MINI is a BMW step down brand.
MINI isn't really a step down brand from a BMW.

MINI caters to a small, specialized niche market.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 6:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
College girls drive E90 and F30 328i(s). Drive into a college parking lot sometime and see for yourself.
Not sure if you're saying this just to get under BJ's skin or you really think this, but...

The fact that I have a daughter going to college that has tons of friends in college, and have recently visited dozens of colleges as part of the process of deciding where she goes to college makes me somewhat of an expert.

I can assure you that 99% of young college women don't drive an e90, F30 328 or a MINI. Pick any campus at all that has thousands of young women, and I think you would be very hard pressed to find a dozen F30 328s in any parking lot. Will you find 1 or 2? Yes, maybe.
mynycbimmer commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
College girls drive E90 and F30 328i(s). Drive into a college parking lot sometime and see for yourself.
If I was a parent with a kid going to college I'd be all over the 320. It's perfect for them IMO, reliable, affordable, and too fast.

The 320 sounds like a good move, the CLA looks really nice (nicer than the F30 to look at, doubt it'll drive as well).

Driving a 3 series has become like flying premium economy, it's really just economy with a few bells and whistles.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 8:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
If I was a parent with a kid going to college I'd be all over the 320. It's perfect for them IMO, reliable, affordable, and too fast.
Thanks for the input, but I am not going to be buying either one of my college kids a 320.

Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. Perhaps I can offer up a 320 and bribe my son into going to a state school instead. It would actually save me money in the long run.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 8:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post

If I was a parent with a kid going to college I'd be all over the 320. It's perfect for them IMO, reliable, affordable, and too fast.
The prices on used E90's are dropping like a stone.

My son turns 16 in 2015 and by then I'll be able to get him a 2011 E90 328i for like $500. My daughter will be 10 by then, I might get a second one just to throw in the backyard for her to play with, park it next to the jungle gym.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 8:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post

Driving a 3 series has become like flying premium economy, it's really just economy with a few bells and whistles.
Perhaps the new 320i for $30,000 or a stripper 328i for $36,000.

But put $50,000 into it, strictly business class.

BJ
SamS commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Perhaps the new 320i for $30,000 or a stripper 328i for $36,000.

But put $50,000 into it, strictly business class.

BJ
I played with the configurator last night, and the bare minimum I could build a 320i for was $40,065 (no Premium package, but almost everything else). A similar equipped I4 Accord is $30,785.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:05 am

Its a good move by BMW. It is very reasonably priced and certainly not slow compared to the competition. This car will be competing against the ATS 2.5, TSX/ILX, C250, IS250, base Q50, some Buicks and so on. Besides a simple software update would put this thing at well over 200 WHP, which IMO is more than plenty.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I played with the configurator last night, and the bare minimum I could build a 320i for was $40,065 (no Premium package, but almost everything else). A similar equipped I4 Accord is $30,785.
Yep, a nicely equipped 320 is above the TSX and ILX in terms of market segment, which places it quite a bit above a Honda Accord.

Of course leasing a stipped down version is always an option, but I personally don't think that really counts...
Vector Pilot commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
There is a sport package. It's the sport line. Plus, you can get DHP on all the lines already. This gives you the sport suspension and more.

I really dont see them negating the sport line or the line concept in general by offering a redundant sport package anytime in the near future. Unless they drop the lines altogether for the 328 and 335, which seems doubtful.

The big question is the M steering wheel. Will that be available on the sport line in the future?

Getting the M steering wheel as part of the sport package is a huge win for the 320 folks.
Not to be confused with the Sport and the M Sport Line the 320i offers a cosmetic Sports Package for $1000/$1300 which offers features like sports seats, M Sport steering wheel, sport suspension and a black headliner.
To rephrased the question.
Will the optional Sport Package currently an option on the 320i be offered on the Base and Luxury and Modern Lines as it is in the UK and Europe?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I played with the configurator last night, and the bare minimum I could build a 320i for was $40,065 (no Premium package, but almost everything else). A similar equipped I4 Accord is $30,785.
....well done.

And there you have it. While still inexpensive by BMW standards, the 320i is still a German luxury car bestowed with all the status and envy befitting it's older 3 Series siblings.

BJ
beden1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Not sure if you're saying this just to get under BJ's skin or you really think this, but...

The fact that I have a daughter going to college that has tons of friends in college, and have recently visited dozens of colleges as part of the process of deciding where she goes to college makes me somewhat of an expert.

I can assure you that 99% of young college women don't drive an e90, F30 328 or a MINI. Pick any campus at all that has thousands of young women, and I think you would be very hard pressed to find a dozen F30 328s in any parking lot. Will you find 1 or 2? Yes, maybe.
My son graduated from UF within 3 years ago and there were tons of 3 Series BMWs. Hell, our HS parking lot is loaded with them.
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
....well done.

And there you have it. While still inexpensive by BMW standards, the 320i is still a German luxury car bestowed with all the status and envy befitting it's older 3 Series siblings.

BJ
The difference is, many less fortunate who could only afford a CPO E90 before, can now drive the same car you drive, your manservant can be one of them.

Time to think about getting a 5 or 7. Some of the smart members here got their 535s at the same payment you got your L328i. How else you satisfy your neighbors' judgment but to move up the food chain?
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My son graduated from UF within 3 years ago and there were tons of 3 Series BMWs. Hell, our HS parking lot is loaded with them.
Same with our high school here. There are numerous kids that have them. We live in a spoiled rich kid community. But even so, there's a difference between some kids have them vs most kids have them

I alos know a college girl that drives a 328, but that doesn't mean all college girls drive a 328, and that a 328 is a college girl car.
beden1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Same with our high school here. There are numerous kids that have them. We live in a spoiled rich kid community. But even so, there's a difference between some kids have them vs most kids have them

I alos know a college girl that drives a 328, but that doesn't mean all college girls drive a 328, and that a 328 is a college girl car.
My daughter had a VW Jetta and my son had a Subaru WRX in HS and college. Both cars were rated as very safe for their class which was my primary goal for their transportation. Both cars also held up extremely well throughout their school years.

I didn't say most college girls drive 3 Series BMWs. I said that there are many in the college campuses that I visited with my kids and also saw when I went to many college football games. My son's girlfriend and most of her sorority drove BMWs. There is a university in Boca Raton, FL where I am an advisor. 25%+ of the cars are 3 Series BMWs (including some M3s). I am shocked everytime I visit the campus.
pilotman commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I played with the configurator last night, and the bare minimum I could build a 320i for was $40,065 (no Premium package, but almost everything else). A similar equipped I4 Accord is $30,785.
of course this is true if you select almost every option, and you assume someone is paying MSRP.

If you go easy on the options, and do a $500-$1,000 over invoice deal, or even better Euro Delivery, the lease/buy payment would be very low.

You can also easily option up a 328 to $50k.
mr_clueless commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
The big question is the M steering wheel. Will that be available on the sport line in the future?

Getting the M steering wheel as part of the sport package is a huge win for the 320 folks.
No heated steering with M wheel.
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My daughter had a VW Jetta and my son had a Subaru WRX in HS and college. Both cars were rated as very safe for their class which was my primary goal for their transportation. Both cars also held up extremely well throughout their school years.

I didn't say most college girls drive 3 Series BMWs. I said that there are many in the college campuses that I visited with my kids and also saw when I went to many college football games. My son's girlfriend and most of her sorority drove BMWs. There is a university in Boca Raton, FL where I am an advisor. 25%+ of the cars are 3 Series BMWs (including some M3s). I am shocked everytime I visit the campus.
The question is, will the kids still like to drive the new 3 series, when it looks more and more like their daddy and mommy's "executive car."
beden1 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The question is, will the kids still like to drive the new 3 series, when it looks more and more like their daddy and mommy's "executive car."
I'm thinking they will - badge whores begat badge whores.

But, that new entry level Mercedes just might sway a few too.
1985mb commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The difference is, many less fortunate who could only afford a CPO E90 before, can now drive the same car you drive, your manservant can be one of them.

Time to think about getting a 5 or 7. Some of the smart members here got their 535s at the same payment you got your L328i. How else you satisfy your neighbors' judgment but to move up the food chain?
Yes, but they were smart.
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
Yes, but they were smart.
I see you have a 2012 E350. What is your view on the 2014 E350? I like the fact they finally put the sporty grille on the 4 doors.
SamS commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
No heated steering with M wheel.
Not true, with the F30 generation.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
of course this is true if you select almost every option, and you assume someone is paying MSRP.

If you go easy on the options, and do a $500-$1,000 over invoice deal, or even better Euro Delivery, the lease/buy payment would be very low.

You can also easily option up a 328 to $50k.
Yeah, but do stripped down versions of 328s and 320s really count?
1985mb commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I see you have a 2012 E350. What is your view on the 2014 E350? I like the fact they finally put the sporty grille on the 4 doors.
Have to see it in person first, but initial thoughts are that it has an ugly hood shutline just like all the new BMWs, and similarly the 'nose' appears to visually protrude more than it actually does.

The grille-mounted star is a huge pet peeve of mine. For the longest time that was the sole preserve of flagship roadsters and coupes (not even E-class based cabriolets or coupes, only SLs and S-class based coupes). Will see if the traditional hood ornament is available with AMG Sport-packaged cars, but I doubt it. That will be a shame.
pilotman commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yeah, but do stripped down versions of 328s and 320s really count?
I think the entire point of this car is to offer a very cheap, BMW.

Lots of people here have posted that they really enjoyed the strippers...

In Europe these are nothing special, and can be had with cloth seats, etc.

It comes standard with bluetooth and other features that were luxury just a few years ago....auto power windows, etc.

I personally have no interest in computers in cars, streaming pandora, email etc.

I can do all of that from my smart phone which gets replaced every two years for a few hundred bucks.

Don't need or want the weight, complexity and cost of those systems in my car.

But BMW is clearly trying to compete on technology, not so much driving experience any more.

Everyone else is doing it too, including Audi, Mercedes, etc. Their ads don't talk about driving so much any more, but more about laser cruise control, email, embrace, traffic, checking weather etc.

There is one reason why they are loving this....PROFIT.

The computers/touchscreens etc automakers put into cars, which are comparable to really an iPad....with weather, gps, traffic, streaming music, etc. cost you thousands of dollars when incorporated into the car....HUGE PROFIT.

Same goes for blind spot, HUD, laser cruise control, all around cameras, yada yada.

This is all now "luxury"
alpinweiss commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
No HK available...
I also noticed that on the configurator. This is a curious omission, since I think buyers in the target market for the 320i (younger than the current 3-Series buyer) will probably insist on the upgraded Harman Kardon audio.

I am an audiophile, and I doubt I would buy a 320i without the HK.

SamS commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss View Post
I also noticed that on the configurator. This is a curious omission, since I think buyers in the target market for the 320i (younger than the current 3-Series buyer) will probably insist on the upgraded Harman Kardon audio.

I am an audiophile, and I doubt I would buy a 320i without the HK.

They've got to pull out a few options like Driver Assistance Plus and HK, otherwise you'll be able to load up a 320i to $50K. Talk about confusion... a $50K 320i on the lot, and a $40K 328i, right next to it!
tturedraider commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Not to be confused with the Sport and the M Sport Line the 320i offers a cosmetic Sports Package for $1000/$1300 which offers features like sports seats, M Sport steering wheel, sport suspension and a black headliner.
To rephrased the question.
Will the optional Sport Package currently an option on the 320i be offered on the Base and Luxury and Modern Lines as it is in the UK and Europe?
Actually the 320i sport package is very "uncosmetic" and offers all the best sport features, including the lowered sport suspension.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The difference is, many less fortunate who could only afford a CPO E90 before, can now drive the same car you drive, your manservant can be one of them.

Time to think about getting a 5 or 7. Some of the smart members here got their 535s at the same payment you got your L328i. How else you satisfy your neighbors' judgment but to move up the food chain?
1. Good for the less fortunate. The more members of Brand New 3 Series Nation we can add the better. The more BMW's that get sold the more $ BMW has to pour into R&D and design to give us fantastic products in the future. Should the day ever come that BMW goes backwards on the bottom line they'll start slashing offerings and cut back on innovation. No one wants that.

2. My neighbors are all highly educated and understand my car's value. And, again, you keep forgetting the fact that to me my 328i is your Camry, if you looked at my tax return you'd ask my why I'm not in a 6 Gran Coupe. I'm slumming it in a 3 Series. And loving every minute of it.

BJ
sf_loft commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
....well done.

And there you have it. While still inexpensive by BMW standards, the 320i is still a German luxury car bestowed with all the status and envy befitting it's older 3 Series siblings.

BJ
Plenty more competition for you at the Walmart parking lot. Now they too can afford to lease a BMW and impress their fellow shoppers.
tturedraider commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss View Post
I also noticed that on the configurator. This is a curious omission, since I think buyers in the target market for the 320i (younger than the current 3-Series buyer) will probably insist on the upgraded Harman Kardon audio.

I am an audiophile, and I doubt I would buy a 320i without the HK.

I agree. I think the HK is an option that needs to be made available. I'm very satisfied with the 320i option list, except for this glaring omission.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
They've got to pull out a few options like Driver Assistance Plus and HK, otherwise you'll be able to load up a 320i to $50K. Talk about confusion... a $50K 320i on the lot, and a $40K 328i, right next to it!
I don't see it as "confusion".

For the first time the horsepower is just another option and something that can be chopped off at a whim for someone who is more concerned with creature comforts or technology.

My mom: Used to drive 3 Series, but now on a fixed income in retirement didn't want a $499 monthly payment for a car optioned where she wanted it, got an Acura TL instead. With the 320i stripper, she can get what she needs plus the unlimited warranty and come in at around $289 a month with a special lease deal and an incentive or two.

My sister: Can afford $499 a year but wanted more options like Technology and didn't want to get over $549 for it. Now she can option-up a 320i to the spec of the 328i she almost bought, cut the horsepower, wind up in a fully-featured 320i for $449.

I know it sounds like heresy to BMW enthusiasts, but to the typical leaser/buyer the ability to trade off HP they don't think they need for Lines and packages that have some value is a big deal. BMW gets off its high-horse on performance, opens up a whole new world of fringe customers and instead of sending customers to Acura and Lexus they actually can start attracting them.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Plenty more competition for you at the Walmart parking lot. Now they too can afford to lease a BMW and impress their fellow shoppers.
Bring it on.

If in a typical week I see 10 335i's and 50 328i's now I'll see 5 335i's, 30 328i's, and 40 320i's. Most of the 320i buyers will be 328i E90 owners who are happy to trade horsepower they don't need for comfort features and technology they can appreciate. That's ultimately the endgame here. BMW is no longer forcing someone to choose the badge and crisp handling over options. Now you can cut the performance and add gobs of goodies.

In the end, it's only 15 incremental F30's I'll see, that's 2 per day, not anything I'm going to notice. Some people think I'm in a 328i because it's some 'exclusive' car. I'm not, but it still is.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I agree. I think the HK is an option that needs to be made available. I'm very satisfied with the 320i option list, except for this glaring omission.
The standard audio system on the F30 is the "premium" system in Europe, sounds much better than the standard system on the E90. For those in the 320i's pricepoint not many of them would have chosen HK to begin with. Again, BMW has lots of datapoints here, not like they don't sell a zillion 320i's right now.

And if the dealbreaker on the lot is putting that buyer into a car with HK, well, they have a few dozen 328i's and 335i's right there for the taking. If you look at the limited options and limited interior materials, the 320i is positioned like a true loss-leader should be. "You want anthracite wood trim, you want grey seats, you want Harmon Kardon, hey, it's only an extra $42 a month. Oh, and you get a more powerful engine too, not that that matters to you."

BJ
bayoucity commented:
January 16, 2013, 12:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
Yes, but they were smart.
Indeed, that was the best deal of 2012.
Kel commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:40 pm

Is this 320 i th new model that newspapers say ws just released for the US on 1/15/2013 and it is $4,000 less MSRP than the lowest priced other 3 series. But the body exterior is the same dimension, etc?
floydarogers commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel View Post
Is this 320 i th new model that newspapers say ws just released for the US on 1/15/2013 and it is $4,000 less MSRP than the lowest priced other 3 series. But the body exterior is the same dimension, etc?
Yes.
cruise_bone commented:
January 16, 2013, 1:55 pm

Where is the 320d!?!?!?!?!?
Axxlrod commented:
January 16, 2013, 2:04 pm

One big ommission from the 320 available option list is.....

sport auto transmission.

If I can't get the sport tranny, then I won't get the car.

Bummer.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 16, 2013, 2:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxlrod View Post
One big ommission from the 320 available option list is.....

sport auto transmission.

If I can't get the sport tranny, then I won't get the car.

Bummer.
I wonder if the 6mt take rate will be a bit higher on the 320 as it can be optioned with the sports pack at a fair price making it a sporty-ish 3 series at a lower cost than the "lines" of the 328.
BMW220i commented:
January 16, 2013, 2:11 pm

I wonder if the newer, tougher gas mileage requirements set by the government is responsible. The 320i passes that requirement. BMW needs more 3 series buyers to offset the bigger BMWs that get poor gas mileage.

I welcome the change.

When is a 316i coming to the U.S.? It would have a 1.6 litre turbo and maybe get 1 mpg better.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 2:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
I wonder if the newer, tougher gas mileage requirements set by the government is responsible. The 320i passes that requirement. BMW needs more 3 series buyers to offset the bigger BMWs that get poor gas mileage.

I welcome the change.

When is a 316i coming to the U.S.? It would have a 1.6 litre turbo and maybe get 1 mpg better.
Yes, definitely future fleet MPG requirements are an influence. 316 or 318 could be on the way.

That, and the fact that they'll sell a ton of these.
mr_clueless commented:
January 16, 2013, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yes, definitely future fleet MPG requirements are an influence. 316 or 318 could be on the way.

That, and the fact that they'll sell a ton of these.
I think they're going to use the 320 as a test for whether the US market will tolerate a relatively low HP BMW. If it works, then we'll see more of the low end ones show up. If it doesn't, then we won't see more of them.

Since we are not taxed by engine size or HP in the US, and the price difference is not that significant, I can't say if the 320i will be a huge success, given that its operational costs are likely to be very similar to a 328i. But we shall see. Since the E36 318ti didn't sell like hot cakes, we didn't see the follow on to that car.
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 3:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
The computers/touchscreens etc automakers put into cars, which are comparable to really an iPad....with weather, gps, traffic, streaming music, etc. cost you thousands of dollars when incorporated into the car....HUGE PROFIT.
So true - a nav at Best Buy is $129. A Nav at a luxury car dealer is $2000. Same goes for a crappy touch screen display that wouldn't sell for $200 if competing with the iPad. But put it in a car, and fools will suddenly pay $2000.
SteVTEC commented:
January 16, 2013, 4:38 pm

Disappointed that the ONE must have feature the misses and I would need, memory power seats, are only available with the Premium Package in the 320i, which forces me into a lot of stuff I don't necessarily need and would assume do without if the goal was to save money. Memory power seats are standard on the 328i, and you can go without all the other package stuff resulting in a car that's only a grand or two more than the 320i with memory seats in the premium package.

Bummer. Nice to have options, though.

My 335i has excessive amounts of performance. It's hard to really enjoy it, so I wouldn't mind having less power. 180hp is a bit light, but JB it up to 200-210 maybe and it'd be about perfect.

What I REALLY REALLY WANT is an F30 335d.

If offered, will be all over one of those and ED it in 2014!
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 4:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
So true - a nav at Best Buy is $129. A Nav at a luxury car dealer is $2000. Same goes for a crappy touch screen display that wouldn't sell for $200 if competing with the iPad. But put it in a car, and fools will suddenly pay $2000.
We don't want to pay $2,000.

It just isn't a lot of money so we do it.

BJ
mr_clueless commented:
January 16, 2013, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We don't want to pay $2,000.

It just isn't a lot of money so we do it.

BJ
People will drive half way across town to save $50 on a $100 item, but won't think of doing the same for something that costs $1000. This is a well-studied problem in economics.
Saintor commented:
January 16, 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
So true - a nav at Best Buy is $129. A Nav at a luxury car dealer is $2000. Same goes for a crappy touch screen display that wouldn't sell for $200 if competing with the iPad. But put it in a car, and fools will suddenly pay $2000.
They sure do. And they will even state that it wouldn't be a real BMW if it hadn't it.

BTW, on bmwusa.com;

320i, sport & lighting packs, moonroof and heated seats; 37195$
328 sportline, lighting pack, moonroof and heated seats; 42695$

5500$++ difference is not small money!

Big differences with Canada are that we don't have the sport pack and the automatic transmission is a 1600$ option.
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
So true - a nav at Best Buy is $129. A Nav at a luxury car dealer is $2000. Same goes for a crappy touch screen display that wouldn't sell for $200 if competing with the iPad. But put it in a car, and fools will suddenly pay $2000.
Cheap plastic garmin is not good enough for me. When you're paying approx. $50,000 anyway, Technology Package is not really a big deal. Either is HK for $875.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Cheap plastic garmin is not good enough for me. When you're paying approx. $50,000 anyway, Technology Package is not really a big deal. Either is HK for $875.
Exactly.

But to high school and college kids driving 7+ year old BMW's, that $2000 is a big number.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
We don't want to pay $2,000.

It just isn't a lot of money so we do it.

BJ
In BMW's case you get a lot more than just a nav, but with some automakers it's a total ripoff.
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 6:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Exactly.

But to high school and college kids driving 7+ year old BMW's, that $2000 is a big number.

BJ
It takes me a month to save $2000, which basically means I'm gonna work an extra month before retirement to pay for that option. So it better be more than just a Garmin built into my dash, is what I'm saying. I think it's worth it for iDrive, but in a lot of carmakers it's just a ripoff.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
It takes me a month to save $2000, which basically means I'm gonna work an extra month before retirement to pay for that option. So it better be more than just a Garmin built into my dash, is what I'm saying. I think it's worth it for iDrive, but in a lot of carmakers it's just a ripoff.
Agree completely.

And in BMW's case there is a lot more value and integration but certainly not $2000 worth. But I look at it this way: I got a $1000 discount for taking a test drive. I got a $300 discount for downloading a BMW iPhone app. I got an extra two months lease payment forgiveness. I got free heated seats. I got free heavy-duty winter mats.

So you add that all up, I got the navigation system for free. I know it's not perfect math and you could easily argue that those discounts should've gone to offset other things, but the car just isn't the same without the full Technology package. The Enhanced BT & USB, the HUD, the widescreen LCD, BMW apps, BMW assist. If you wind up in an F30 someday you'll want that stuff.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bring it on.

If in a typical week I see 10 335i's and 50 328i's now I'll see 5 335i's, 30 328i's, and 40 320i's. Most of the 320i buyers will be 328i E90 owners who are happy to trade horsepower they don't need for comfort features and technology they can appreciate. That's ultimately the endgame here. BMW is no longer forcing someone to choose the badge and crisp handling over options. Now you can cut the performance and add gobs of goodies.

In the end, it's only 15 incremental F30's I'll see, that's 2 per day, not anything I'm going to notice. Some people think I'm in a 328i because it's some 'exclusive' car. I'm not, but it still is.

BJ
Yes you are a finance genius according to BJ, making the most thoughful decisions for you and your family, and has said the same about BMW.

Now if we assume the average profits BMW makes on the above models are $5k for 335i, $4.5K for 328i and $0.5K for 320i, since as stated before it would likely cost about the same to manufacture a base 320i than a base 328i, but a 320i sells for $4k less.

Your happy ending breakdown of the makeup of the F30s above just cost BMW a ton of profit. Did you leave your financial wisdom at your door, or are you just happy to see them make a lot less money? Maybe you are correct you are not much an executive type
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yes you are a finance genius according to BJ, making the most thoughful decisions for you and your family, and has said the same about BMW.

Now if we assume the average profits BMW makes on the above models are $5k for 335i, $4.5K for 328i and $0.5K for 320i, since as stated before it would likely cost about the same to manufacture a base 320i than a base 328i, but a 320i sells for $4k less.

Your happy ending breakdown of the makeup of the F30s above just cost BMW a ton of profit. Did you leave your financial wisdom at your door, or are you just happy to see them make a lot less money? Maybe you are correct you are not much an executive type
BMW doesn't just launch a new low-end 3 Series variant without doing some serious modeling.

And when the number crunchers in Munich ran their models, it showed them that they would sell X million more units and make X million more dollars by launching the 320i. There is also something called a lifetime value model which says that getting a 23 year old buyer at a $4000 loss hurts in 2013 but pays back in buckets by 2023. Retention and owner loyalty are extremely high with BMW, and this car is not designed just to get a quick buck as that's not something that BMW needs right now.

BJ
Axxlrod commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:44 pm

So when does the 320i go on sale in the US?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxlrod View Post
So when does the 320i go on sale in the US?
June.

BJ
Saintor commented:
January 16, 2013, 7:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Retention and owner loyalty are extremely high with BMW, and this car is not designed just to get a quick buck as that's not something that BMW needs right now.

BJ

That was the job of the 1-series.

320i is not necessarely for youngters.
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
That was the job of the 1-series.

320i is not necessarely for youngters.
The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
There won't be a 1 Sedan or a 2 Sedan.

The 320i is it.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:15 pm

I really don't see the 320i being a loss leader - to get a stripped one you'll have to order that, which few people do. It seems to be (a) making HP an option, expanding buyer choice, and (b) to get buyers into the showroom thinking they'll spend $33k, and having them drive out in a $40k car.
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
There won't be a 1 Sedan or a 2 Sedan.

The 320i is it.

BJ
BMW is planning to greatly expand their lineup, with front drive 1 series sedans, a whole range of 2 series cars, coupes, sedans etc. The 320i is just the beginning.
mr29 commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
this is dead on it seems.

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
namelessman commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:18 pm

Did a build on bmwusa.com on a base 320i with ZPP, leather, and fold-down seat(standard in 328i) to match with a base 328i with ZPP only, and the MSRP difference is $2300. So it boils down to $2k for 60+HP, not a bad deal for 328i. The ZSP on 320i is $1300 for 18-inch wheel and sports suspension.. A DD configuration of base 320i+ZLP+ZSP runs $35.5k MSRP, the price point appears to be a bit high.

320i ZPP(which shows the missing gadgets in base 320i)

• Auto-dimming rearview mirror
• Auto-dimming interior and exterior mirrors
• Storage package
• Comfort Access keyless entry
• Power front seats with driver seat memory
• Satellite radio with 1 year subscription
• Universal garage-door opener
• Lumbar support
• Moonroof
ProRail commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:36 pm

Sounds pretty good to me. Have been pricing 2005 328 wagons and they ask for about 3K. A brand new 329d at 33K seems pretty good to me. But in the end it's the buyer's decision. Do you want it or not? your choice
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
BMW is planning to greatly expand their lineup, with front drive 1 series sedans, a whole range of 2 series cars, coupes, sedans etc. The 320i is just the beginning.
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $30,000.

BJ
Ronin951 commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post

There is a recent survey of the ATS drivers showing there is a very good chance the average age of the ATS drivers is much lower than that of the F30 drivers. As I said BMW needs to lower the average age of its drivers. Introducing the 320i might help.

Can you imagine an average BMW driver older than a Caddy driver?
Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 9:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin951 View Post
Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.


This has happened before, and it doesn't end well.

For decades, Cadillac has tried the "we are for young people!" ad campaigns and they bomb. Time and time again, their core customers don't buy the smaller car and the customers they aspire to attract ignore them because of the old-man stigma of the brand. They spend millions, they make a big media splash, they win a lot of awards, they get the obligatory "3 Series Killer?" bylines, same result.

So far, sales of the ATS support that this is another bust by GM. Ask any kid in college, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any recent graduate, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any up and coming executive, he can't be seen in a Cadillac. Its what it is.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $25,000.

So what's the price of a 1 Sedan? Has to be less than the 3 Sedan whose floor is $25,000. But can't be too significant a jump to the 1 Coupe which starts at $31,000. The 'missing' pricepoint that the 1 Sedan might have hit is $25,000 and I can't see BMW having two 4-door Sedan's at $25,000 just because one is smaller and the other larger. Doesn't make sense.

BMW knew that the CLA was coming and they didn't build something to counter it. They instead took a full-sized 3 Series and de-spec'd it to hit a pricepoint. Put another way, perhaps only if the 320i fails will BMW replace it with a 1 Sedan. Just isn't enough wiggle room on pricing. The 320i just gobbled it up.

BJ
What do you mean by $25k, isn't the 320i $33k?

I think the small sedan will be a 2 series Gran Coupe, so it'll be higher priced than just a basic small sedan. Maybe similar to the 1 series in price.
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $25,000.

So what's the price of a 1 Sedan? Has to be less than the 3 Sedan whose floor is $25,000. But can't be too significant a jump to the 1 Coupe which starts at $31,000. The 'missing' pricepoint that the 1 Sedan might have hit is $25,000 and I can't see BMW having two 4-door Sedan's at $25,000 just because one is smaller and the other larger. Doesn't make sense.

BMW knew that the CLA was coming and they didn't build something to counter it. They instead took a full-sized 3 Series and de-spec'd it to hit a pricepoint. Put another way, perhaps only if the 320i fails will BMW replace it with a 1 Sedan. Just isn't enough wiggle room on pricing. The 320i just gobbled it up.

BJ
Where is the number $25,000 coming from?

You seem to suggest BMW did not plan this well, even though they know what they are doing. Both MB and Audi have smaller FWD sedans coming, only MB's CLA comes out first. So maybe the 320i is just a stop gap measure at the expense of lowered profit?

The reason a small RWD sedan does not work is because there is not enough room. If BMW is really trying to match the effort of MB and Audi, then don't be surprised they unveil a small FWD sedan later, unrelated to the 320i.
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


This has happened before, and it doesn't end well.

For decades, Cadillac has tried the "we are for young people!" ad campaigns and they bomb. Time and time again, their core customers don't buy the smaller car and the customers they aspire to attract ignore them because of the old-man stigma of the brand. They spend millions, they make a big media splash, they win a lot of awards, they get the obligatory "3 Series Killer?" bylines, same result.

So far, sales of the ATS support that this is another bust by GM. Ask any kid in college, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any recent graduate, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any up and coming executive, he can't be seen in a Cadillac. Its what it is.

BJ
The problem is, you have not asked anyone, or cared to look at any stats, everything you say just comes out of your own you know what
mynycbimmer commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
this is dead on it seems.

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
Actually, they already are VW. The brand has been shifting downmarket without a doubt, their cars have become very affordable to the average person.

Here are the top 10 best selling cars in the UK last year.

Ford Fiesta 109,262
Vauxhall Corsa 89,434
Ford Focus 83,115
Vauxhall Astra 63,023
Volkswagen Golf 62,021
Nissan Qashqai 45,675
BMW 3-Series 44,521
Volkswagen Polo 41,901
Mercedes-Benz C-Class 37,261
BMW 1-Series 34,488

and the top 10 manufacturers (all models)

Ford 281,917
Vauxhall 232,255
Volkswagen 183,098
BMW 127,530
Audi 123,622
Nissan 105,835
Peugeot 99,486
Mercedes-Benz 91,855
Toyota 84,563
Hyundai 74,285
Chris90 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin951 View Post
Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Where is the number $25,000 coming from?

You seem to suggest BMW did not plan this well, even though they know what they are doing. Both MB and Audi have smaller FWD sedans coming, only MB's CLA comes out first. So maybe the 320i is just a stop gap measure at the expense of lowered profit?

The reason a small RWD sedan does not work is because there is not enough room. If BMW is really trying to match the effort of MB and Audi, then don't be surprised they unveil a small FWD sedan later, unrelated to the 320i.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
What do you mean by $25k, isn't the 320i $33k?

I think the small sedan will be a 2 series Gran Coupe, so it'll be higher priced than just a basic small sedan. Maybe similar to the 1 series in price.
My bad, the 1 Sedan could live at $25,000 but it's a really low pricepoint, not sure if BMW would do that.

As far as upscaling it, it's an interesting idea, I might buy one, but if it's smaller than the F30 and more expensive, not sure there are enough customers to support it.

BJ
SamS commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6.
The F80 M3 won't even have the S65 V8 going for it, it'll be just another anonymous turbo I6.

boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The problem is, you have not asked anyone, or cared to look at any stats, everything you say just comes out of your own you know what


Stats.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
...and, it'll cannibalize Cadillac itself, trading its own customers down, not getting any new customers, death spiral.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
Toning it down is not a surprise, to young people or not, the CTS style is too edgy. Toning it down for the Chinese? Really? Just say you don't like the style, but don't stretch it.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Toning it down is not a surprise, to young people or not, the CTS style is too edgy. Toning it down for the Chinese? Really? Just say you don't like the style, but don't stretch it.
The CTS and it's "origami" form factor has been around since 2007, very long in the tooth.

The ATS shouldn't have cloned this old design. Instead, should have broken new ground as the very first car of the new Cadillac design language. GM blew that opportunity, played it safe, it looks like a brand new old car which is the antithesis of what the younger crowd is looking for.

Good idea, lots of market share to borrow from others, but really bad execution.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Stats.

BJ
Yeah, after two months and when their volume model 2.0T did not even start production. Why don't you look at the Dec 2011 column? ATS was really dead there you know.
trinipirate commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:33 pm

Yay, i get to be a big boy in my 328i now... But very aggressive and savy business move by BMW though. I don't see why this should bother anyone.
mynycbimmer commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.
Outside of old Americans who grew up driving muscle cars, I don't really see who would ever buy a Caddy.

Case in point, this thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=638056
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:50 pm

I actually like the ATS, and I really like the CTS coupe, and I really really like the V models.

Only problem for GM is that I prefer BMWs.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yeah, after two months and when their volume model 2.0T did not even start production. Why don't you look at the Dec 2011 column? ATS was really dead there you know.
They had a ton of TV commercials, must have been 3x what the nearest competitor spent, print ads, front covers of all the major auto mags, still couldn't sell 3,000 units. Not saying that they were in great inventory shape, but please, that's not very good.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 10:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
I actually like the ATS, and I really like the CTS coupe, and I really really like the V models.

Only problem for GM is that I prefer BMWs.
I can see someone in a Buick or a Ford who could aspire to be in a Cadillac. Blue collar, born-in-the-USA types, middle America.

But I can't see any BMW owner stepping down to a Cadillac, and for what? Just to save a few dollars and wind up in a baby CTS? Doesn't make sense for us. Wrong customers, wrong forum.

BJ
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can see someone in a Buick or a Ford who could aspire to be in a Cadillac. Blue collar, born-in-the-USA types, middle America.

But I can't see any BMW owner stepping down to a Cadillac, and for what? Just to save a few dollars and wind up in a baby CTS? Doesn't make sense for us. Wrong customers, wrong forum.

BJ
Yeah, I'm not saying I'd ever get one. I definitely prefer BMWs, no doubt. But I appreciate their products. They have actually turned things around quite a bit. You gotta admit, it wasn't too long ago when Cadillac wouldn't even be mentioned on a BMW forum. Now there are threads and threads talking about the ATS vs the 3. The fact that we're even having this conversation on the 'fest is testimonial to their progress. They're in the ballpark.
captainaudio commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:07 pm

And the fact that so many posters here seem to be so threatened by the ATS and are so determined to denigrated it tells me that Cadillac is onto something.

CA
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yeah, I'm not saying I'd ever get one. I definitely prefer BMWs, no doubt. But I appreciate their products. They have actually turned things around quite a bit. You gotta admit, it wasn't too long ago when Cadillac wouldn't even be mentioned on a BMW forum. Now there are threads and threads talking about the ATS vs the 3. The fact that we're even having this conversation on the 'fest is testimonial to their progress. They're in the ballpark.
It's called a Guerrilla Marketing Campaign. You target a forum, you grease a poster, he posts repetitively, can be very effective.

It's the first new RWD car in this class in how many years? That's the problem with the ATS. It's designed to be "in the conversation". It's not designed for customers. It's a marketing project, not a great vehicle. If it were, it would be selling. We've been talking about this ridiculous Caddy for over a year, still not a single person is actually driving one or thinking of buying one. We had one person say he took a test drive and wasn't blown away, that's it. That's the sum total of thousands of posts on that ridiculous car.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
And the fact that so many posters here seem to be so threatened by the ATS and are so determined to denigrated it tells me that Cadillac is onto something.

CA
No, actually, we're just annoyed by the same poster who keeps bumping his ATS threads over and over again. It's not a car that anyone cares about. It has great entertainment value, for like an hour, and then it gets stale and we move on until Mr. Bump starts the loop all over again.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
And the fact that so many posters here seem to be so threatened by the ATS and are so determined to denigrated it tells me that Cadillac is onto something.

CA
To be fair, few posters here feel threatened by the ATS, maybe just one. But I can see how he kept saying we, we, we, or 98%, 2%, can give you that impression.
mr29 commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:46 pm

ive driven alotta caddies sure their nice but they are no.BMW

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
krash commented:
January 16, 2013, 11:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

It's not designed for customers. It's a marketing project, not a great vehicle.

BJ
This is what I keep telling a co-worker of mine about his stupid Toyota Prius. Actually, this is only a fraction of what I keep telling him...
Chris90 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
The F80 M3 won't even have the S65 V8 going for it, it'll be just another anonymous turbo I6.

While I find that disappointing as well, everyone has turbo V6s, who besides BMW has turbo inline sixes, Volvo S60? Anything else?

My point was, the CTS-V is special cause of that V8.
beden1 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's called a Guerrilla Marketing Campaign. You target a forum, you grease a poster, he posts repetitively, can be very effective.

It's the first new RWD car in this class in how many years? That's the problem with the ATS. It's designed to be "in the conversation". It's not designed for customers. It's a marketing project, not a great vehicle. If it were, it would be selling. We've been talking about this ridiculous Caddy for over a year, still not a single person is actually driving one or thinking of buying one. We had one person say he took a test drive and wasn't blown away, that's it. That's the sum total of thousands of posts on that ridiculous car.

BJ
Does this statement resemble anyone else who constantly posts in this forum and this thread?
Chris90 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Toning it down is not a surprise, to young people or not, the CTS style is too edgy. Toning it down for the Chinese? Really? Just say you don't like the style, but don't stretch it.
Yeah, heard that a lot, that the ATS styling was toned down for China.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11211085...esign---report

Quote:
Cadillac planning to tone-down its design - report

Hopes to increase its appeal in China

Cadillac's Art & Science design philosophy has been a hallmark of the brand ever since the CTS was introduced a decade ago, but a new report is indicating the company will soften its sharp lines and creases to appeal to a broader global audience - most notably China.

Reuters says the brand's distinctive styling is a turnoff in the People's Republic because of cultural leaning towards curvier designs such as those offered by Audi, BMW and Mercedes. This apparently ties into a Confucian concept that stresses harmony with smooth lines and soft curves.

Cadillac seems to agree as the brand's Chinese sales and marketing chief, Kevin Chen, has confirmed many buyers dislike the company's styling because it is too "bold" and "futuristic." This puts Cadillac in an awkward position because Chen said "If you ask our customers what's the motivation for choosing Cadillac, they would say design. If you ask Audi buyers why they don't choose Cadillac, they'd say it's too bold."

Despite this, Chen confirmed the brand will gravitate towards a "modern contemporary design" which will likely be more conservative.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
This is what I keep telling a co-worker of mine about his stupid Toyota Prius...
Are you trying to help BJ with Prius as an example? The success of Prius is any car manufacture's wet dream. The fact we don't care for it is irrelevant.
beden1 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Are you trying to help BJ with Prius as an example? The success of Prius is any car manufacture's wet dream. The fact we don't care for it is irrelevant.
I love how Prius owners glare at me when I'm driving my Suburban or Tahoe. I think I'll start asking them what green plan they have for disposing their batteries when the time comes.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Does this statement resemble anyone else who constantly posts in this forum and this thread?
I am now curious how much grease BJ has on him and by who?
beden1 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am now curious how much grease BJ has on him and by who?
It does seem to be like a paid advertisement.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I love how Prius owners glare at me when I'm driving my Suburban or Tahoe. I think I'll start asking them what green plan they have for disposing their batteries when time comes.
Many Prius drivers are in it so they don't have to spend much on gas, not for the environment. It is a legit goal. Prius also has very high resale value. BJ should have been driving a Prius, if he is true to his finance discipline.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 12:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Yeah, heard that a lot, that the ATS styling was toned down for China.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11211085...esign---report
Of course they like to say that. But Cadillac is really for the US market. Curve it up like an Audi is not going to help sell it in China. The XTS has a better chance.

I personally am not crazy about the ATS styling either, I agree it should be more aggressive, but not hard-edged aggressive.
krash commented:
January 17, 2013, 7:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Many Prius drivers are in it so they don't have to spend much on gas, not for the environment. It is a legit goal. Prius also has very high resale value. BJ should have been driving a Prius, if he is true to his finance discipline.
Yeah, I was just trying to change the subject, and wish I didn't even post that now. But I like a Prius about the same BJ likes the ATS.
SteVTEC commented:
January 17, 2013, 9:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Does this statement resemble anyone else who constantly posts in this forum and this thread?
Currently 48 posts in this thread out of 350 or so.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
January 17, 2013, 9:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Stats.

BJ
Those numbers include the E90 don't they? Also, I am very surprised how well the ATS is doing!
LegendsNeverDie commented:
January 17, 2013, 9:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
Outside of old Americans who grew up driving muscle cars, I don't really see who would ever buy a Caddy.

Case in point, this thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=638056
Anyone that cares more about performance than brand logo.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
January 17, 2013, 9:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can see someone in a Buick or a Ford who could aspire to be in a Cadillac. Blue collar, born-in-the-USA types, middle America.

But I can't see any BMW owner stepping down to a Cadillac, and for what? Just to save a few dollars and wind up in a baby CTS? Doesn't make sense for us. Wrong customers, wrong forum.

BJ


Born and raised in Europe. Owned mostly Europeans cars. Will likely upgrade to the ATS in the future.
sf_loft commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Stats.

BJ
We all know that BMW and MB both inflate their numbers to fight for the #1 spot. They do so by shipping dealerships service loaner and demo cars and giving them incentives to register them. Then they are given bigger incentives to get them off the lots and re-register them to customers as new sales. It's a common practice for top manufacturers because there is a psychological effect on people to buy them when a car is popular. Why do you think BMW and MB held back their numbers to see who posts first.

Good quote:

Lexus was "puzzled" by a discrepancy between BMW's reported sales in July and registrations tracked by Polk, a data supplier that collects such information from state agencies, Mark Templin, U.S. head of Toyota's luxury brand said in an Aug. 8 interview in Palo Alto, California.
"This whole volume fight for No. 1, God bless them if that's what they want to fight for," Templin said. "That's a difficult place for a luxury brand to be. If you're fighting for volume -- your stated No. 1 goal is volume -- I think a lot of bad habits creep into the way you do business."

Also, when the majority of your customers are lease buyers, there is a good recurring model of constant sales. That is why BMW is hard to beat on lease deals / incentives. Too attractive and with the 3 series, affordable for many people.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
We all know that BMW and MB both inflate their numbers to fight for the #1 spot. They do so by shipping dealerships service loaner and demo cars and giving them incentives to register them. Then they are given bigger incentives to get them off the lots and re-register them to customers as new sales. It's a common practice for top manufacturers because there is a psychological effect on people to buy them when a car is popular. Why do you think BMW and MB held back their numbers to see who posts first.

Good quote:

Lexus was "puzzled" by a discrepancy between BMW's reported sales in July and registrations tracked by Polk, a data supplier that collects such information from state agencies, Mark Templin, U.S. head of Toyota's luxury brand said in an Aug. 8 interview in Palo Alto, California.
"This whole volume fight for No. 1, God bless them if that's what they want to fight for," Templin said. "That's a difficult place for a luxury brand to be. If you're fighting for volume -- your stated No. 1 goal is volume -- I think a lot of bad habits creep into the way you do business."

Also, when the majority of your customers are lease buyers, there is a good recurring model of constant sales. That is why BMW is hard to beat on lease deals / incentives. Too attractive and with the 3 series, affordable for many people.
I totally agree!
408Racer commented:
January 17, 2013, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
"This whole volume fight for No. 1, God bless them if that's what they want to fight for," Templin said. "That's a difficult place for a luxury brand to be. If you're fighting for volume -- your stated No. 1 goal is volume -- I think a lot of bad habits creep into the way you do business."

Also, when the majority of your customers are lease buyers, there is a good recurring model of constant sales. That is why BMW is hard to beat on lease deals / incentives. Too attractive and with the 3 series, affordable for many people.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
We all know that BMW and MB both inflate their numbers to fight for the #1 spot. They do so by shipping dealerships service loaner and demo cars and giving them incentives to register them. Then they are given bigger incentives to get them off the lots and re-register them to customers as new sales. It's a common practice for top manufacturers because there is a psychological effect on people to buy them when a car is popular. Why do you think BMW and MB held back their numbers to see who posts first.

Good quote:

Lexus was "puzzled" by a discrepancy between BMW's reported sales in July and registrations tracked by Polk, a data supplier that collects such information from state agencies, Mark Templin, U.S. head of Toyota's luxury brand said in an Aug. 8 interview in Palo Alto, California.
"This whole volume fight for No. 1, God bless them if that's what they want to fight for," Templin said. "That's a difficult place for a luxury brand to be. If you're fighting for volume -- your stated No. 1 goal is volume -- I think a lot of bad habits creep into the way you do business."

Also, when the majority of your customers are lease buyers, there is a good recurring model of constant sales. That is why BMW is hard to beat on lease deals / incentives. Too attractive and with the 3 series, affordable for many people.
Well Audi has the option of making their A4 or S4 leases more attractive, but they choose not to.
SilverX3 commented:
January 17, 2013, 4:14 pm

US is a lucky country

$33K for 320i

$53K here

and 1 AUD =1.05 USD

we got ripped off here
beden1 commented:
January 17, 2013, 4:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Why, he's driving an S4 like we have. I don't think even the fanboys here can dispute the fact that the S4 is a much better overall car as compared to an F30.
krash commented:
January 17, 2013, 5:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Why, he's driving an S4 like we have. I don't think even the fanboys here can dispute the fact that the S4 is a much better overall car as compared to an F30.
My son keeps telling me that too...

But there isn't an Audi dealer close to me, so I automatically rule them out and never consider them.

That's ok. I'll be very happy with the F30.
justinnum1 commented:
January 17, 2013, 5:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Why, he's driving an S4 like we have. I don't think even the fanboys here can dispute the fact that the S4 is a much better overall car as compared to an F30.
Saintor commented:
January 17, 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
US is a lucky country

$33K for 320i

$53K here

and 1 AUD =1.05 USD

we got ripped off here

You are lucky. Here in Canada, we are just *raped*.

2800$ standard PDI & fees for over already inflated MSRP, really?
pony_trekker commented:
January 17, 2013, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
US is a lucky country

$33K for 320i

$53K here

and 1 AUD =1.05 USD

we got ripped off here
But you get free health care and 125 degree summers and casual toplessness at beaches and good beer.
Slaymaster commented:
January 17, 2013, 7:01 pm

Personally I think the 2.0 should had been a diesel with MPGs around 40 highway.
mr_clueless commented:
January 17, 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaymaster View Post
Personally I think the 2.0 should had been a diesel with MPGs around 40 highway.
It sounds like people are getting close to that even with the 328i (at least the best reported ones).

I think we'll see the 320d too...thought I read about that somewhere a long time ago. In fact the 320i was a bit of surprise.
IAS commented:
January 17, 2013, 9:19 pm

is it really true the only difference between 320i and 328i is 185 hp engine in 320i, and due to this $4k price difference, this sounds to good to be true. Acura has also brought a cheaper model starting 25K, it looks like trend, i am not sure it will be successful or not but most of times it has backfired. Jaguar with Xtype, Cadillac with Catera.

If only difference is in the engine then it is very attractive price for buyers. Until it is confirmed by some review i am skeptical about it. it could bring lot of buyers but then it like everyone driving 3 series. i am not sure i like it.
Michael Schott commented:
January 17, 2013, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAS View Post
is it really true the only difference between 320i and 328i is 185 hp engine in 320i, and due to this $4k price difference, this sounds to good to be true. Acura has also brought a cheaper model starting 25K, it looks like trend, i am not sure it will be successful or not but most of times it has backfired. Jaguar with Xtype, Cadillac with Catera.

If only difference is in the engine then it is very attractive price for buyers. Until it is confirmed by some review i am skeptical about it. it could bring lot of buyers but then it like everyone driving 3 series. i am not sure i like it.
The engine is not the only difference, there are fewer std features like the lack of power seats and the fold down rear seat. Many of the options available on the 328 are not available on the 320. No DHP or technology package for example. Otherwise it seems the things that make the 3 series a great driver's car are there.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 17, 2013, 10:16 pm

I've revised my thinking and contrary to my earlier position, the 320i will be a success because it attracts buyers, including my wife, who are shopping for a sports sedan that offers value plus performance. Working with the configurator, and being selective with options and packages, the 320i fills the needs many consumers are looking for in an upscale import.

Here's our latest configuration:

320xi BASE MSRP $34,550
Black Sapphire Metallic$550
Black Dakota Leather $1,450
Silver Matte Trim $0
Lighting Package $900
Sport Package $1,000
Heated front seats $500
Split fold-down-rear seat $475
Navigation system $2,150
BMW Assist with enhanced Bluetooth and USB $0

Destination & Handling: $895

Total MSRP as Built $42,470
krash commented:
January 17, 2013, 10:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
I've revised my thinking and contrary to my earlier position, the 320i will be a success because it attracts buyers, including my wife, who are shopping for a sports sedan that offers value plus performance. Working with the configurator, and being selective with options and packages, the 320i fills the needs many consumers are looking for in an upscale import.

Here's our latest configuration:

320xi BASE MSRP $34,550
Black Sapphire Metallic$550
Black Dakota Leather $1,450
Silver Matte Trim $0
Lighting Package $900
Sport Package $1,000
Heated front seats $500
Split fold-down-rear seat $475
Navigation system $2,150
BMW Assist with enhanced Bluetooth and USB $0

Destination & Handling: $895

Total MSRP as Built $42,470
Yep, and you shouldn't have any trouble knocking the price down to about $1000 over invoice. Personally, I'm not a bottom feeder. I think it's great that the dealer makes some money, so I don't push any lower than that, but people on this forum go even lower than $1000 over invoice, and that's fine.

But bottom line is that you'll be able to get it for several thousand cheaper than MSRP if you really work at it.
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yep, and you shouldn't have any trouble knocking the price down to about $1000 over invoice. Personally, I'm not a bottom feeder. I think it's great that the dealer makes some money, so I don't push any lower than that, but people on this forum go even lower than $1000 over invoice, and that's fine.

But bottom line is that you'll be able to get it for several thousand cheaper than MSRP if you really work at it.
Again that depends on whether BMW wants to sell 320i by volume, or 328i by volume. They can easily subsidize one a lot more than the other, depending on market reaction and their need for sales numbers vs. profit.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
I've revised my thinking and contrary to my earlier position, the 320i will be a success because it attracts buyers, including my wife, who are shopping for a sports sedan that offers value plus performance. Working with the configurator, and being selective with options and packages, the 320i fills the needs many consumers are looking for in an upscale import.

Here's our latest configuration:

Total MSRP as Built $42,470
Bingo.

As you've discovered, a non-enthusiast can trade off horsepower for packages. That $4,300 difference in the 320i goes a long way to make up for some of the 328i's option shortfalls. You can add Premium, Lighting, and Nav with $1000 to spare vs. a fairly stripped 328i, or you can forgo it all, kill the leather too, and save almost $5,300.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Again that depends on whether BMW wants to sell 320i by volume, or 328i by volume. They can easily subsidize one a lot more than the other, depending on market reaction and their need for sales numbers vs. profit.
328i sales will drop by 50%. 320i sales will be off the charts. The combination of the two will ring the register to epic proportions for BMW. And all the new blood getting out of their Honda's, out of their Acura's, and into BMW's bodes very well for their future.

Mercedes has the CLA. BMW needed the 320i. The genie is out of the bottle. Brave new world.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 17, 2013, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
328i sales will drop by 50%. 320i sales will be off the charts. The combination of the two will ring the register to epic proportions for BMW. And all the new blood getting out of their Honda's, out of their Acura's, and into BMW's bodes very well for their future.

Mercedes has the CLA. BMW needed the 320i. The genie is out of the bottle. Brave new world.

BJ
If the 320i is to answer the CLA, then BMW is obviously ill prepared. Their FWD small sedan has a slow start, in part because with their deeply rooted RWD tradition, they did not see people attracted to a small FWD BMW. Therefore it is a stop gap measure, if you are correct it is to compete with CLA or A3.

Usually you do not introduce a car in a different category to compete with another brand, you build a car in that same category to compete. It would be more logical if you say 320i is here to go head to head with C250.

The genie was never in the bottle, it was just sitting on the other side of the pond all this time.
beden1 commented:
January 18, 2013, 1:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If the 320i is to answer the CLA, then BMW is obviously ill prepared. Their FWD small sedan has a slow start, in part because with their deeply rooted RWD tradition, they did not see people attracted to a small FWD BMW. Therefore it is a stop gap measure, if you are correct it is to compete with CLA or A3.

Usually you do not introduce a car in a different category to compete with another brand, you build a car in that same category to compete. It would be more logical if you say 320i is here to go head to head with C250.

The genie was never in the bottle, it was just sitting on the other side of the pond all this time.
The CLA is FWD? Forget it then. Torque steer sucks.
beden1 commented:
January 18, 2013, 1:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
I've revised my thinking and contrary to my earlier position, the 320i will be a success because it attracts buyers, including my wife, who are shopping for a sports sedan that offers value plus performance. Working with the configurator, and being selective with options and packages, the 320i fills the needs many consumers are looking for in an upscale import.

Here's our latest configuration:

320xi BASE MSRP $34,550
Black Sapphire Metallic$550
Black Dakota Leather $1,450
Silver Matte Trim $0
Lighting Package $900
Sport Package $1,000
Heated front seats $500
Split fold-down-rear seat $475
Navigation system $2,150
BMW Assist with enhanced Bluetooth and USB $0

Destination & Handling: $895

Total MSRP as Built $42,470
Can you get heated seats without leather? If so, that could save $1,450.
justinnum1 commented:
January 18, 2013, 2:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The CLA is FWD? Forget it then. Torque steer sucks.
+1. I don't even consider FWD when i am looking for a car.
sf_loft commented:
January 18, 2013, 2:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Well Audi has the option of making their A4 or S4 leases more attractive, but they choose not to.
You need to be a volume seller to make profit from huge incentives and lease deals. Audi had a rough patch historically in the U.S. and only in recent years have they gained traction. BMW had a head start in the U.S. and Audi does not have an expansive dealer network. If you cut margin without volume or a dealer network to sell enough of them, you're taking a huge hit.
ilhan1103 commented:
January 18, 2013, 2:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Can you get heated seats without leather? If so, that could save $1,450.
You can here in yurop.
sf_loft commented:
January 18, 2013, 2:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
What are you 19? Your user title says living life in the fast lane - bet they park your car up front at the Valencia in Santana Row.

Nothing to be Jealous about. I've owned two 335's, a 2007 e92 and a 2009 e92, wrecked and lemoned respectively. Been a member here since 2007, just talking to my buddy BoltJames.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 18, 2013, 3:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Again that depends on whether BMW wants to sell 320i by volume, or 328i by volume. They can easily subsidize one a lot more than the other, depending on market reaction and their need for sales numbers vs. profit.
Agree with the comment, yes BMW's intent is to make the 320 their volume leader by being, and I'm assuming, extremely aggressive with attractive lease and purchase incentives. Researching the 320, it has received good reviews worldwide so it's a no-brainer introducing it to the US market. Comparing it to the 328 it's numbers suggests slight drop in performance but offers all the characteristics we here in the U.S. have come to expect from 3ER. Some may argue it will cannibalise the F30 line, I say no, it will add more value to the 328 and make the 335 even more desirable. If you look it how my wife spec out the model to include the Sport Pack, she refers to it as "M Sport-Ultra-Lite." In our world, that's value at discount.
1985mb commented:
January 18, 2013, 10:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The CLA is FWD? Forget it then. Torque steer sucks.
AWD will also be available, FYI.
408Racer commented:
January 18, 2013, 1:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
What are you 19? Your user title says living life in the fast lane - bet they park your car up front at the Valencia in Santana Row.

Nothing to be Jealous about. I've owned two 335's, a 2007 e92 and a 2009 e92, wrecked and lemoned respectively. Been a member here since 2007, just talking to my buddy BoltJames.
U mad, bro?

That was directed at the Lexus marketing whine about how BMW and MB count their sales figures.
captainaudio commented:
January 18, 2013, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bingo.

As you've discovered, a non-enthusiast can trade off horsepower for packages. That $4,300 difference in the 320i goes a long way to make up for some of the 328i's option shortfalls. You can add Premium, Lighting, and Nav with $1000 to spare vs. a fairly stripped 328i, or you can forgo it all, kill the leather too, and save almost $5,300.

BJ
I really don't see that BMW is doing anything differently than they have been doing for years. The base car comes with the standard suspension. The sport suspension is optional. Many other features, most of which I would consider luxury or convenience features are optional as well the same as they were on the E9x.

I still have the window sticker for my E93.

These features were all extra cost options:
Space Gray Metallic
Cold Weather Package
Premium Package
Sport Package
Steptronic Automatic Transmission
Paddle Shifters
Comfort Access with Comfort Load
Park Distance Control
IPod and USB Adapter
Navigation System
HD Radio
Satellite Radio

Dealer installed options included:
Burl Walnut Shift Lever
Burl Walnut Parking Brake Handle
Style 196 Rims
Front Aero Lip
Wind Deflector
Luggage Set
Aluminum Accelerator, Brake and Dead Pedals

All of this added almost $15,000 to the MSRP of the car.

The only option that had an influence on the way the car drives is the Sport Package because it included the sport suspension. The rest were all bells and whistles that I think make driving (or riding) in the car more pleasant but have no influence on the way the car drives.

CA
hufington commented:
January 18, 2013, 5:39 pm

A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 18, 2013, 6:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hufington View Post
A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
I agree with your last paragraph. However with that being said regarding the 320 will not appeal to American car enthusiast, I recommend researching other BMW forums and there you'll read about how enthusiasts are discussing various options of tuning the 320's engine to achieve it's full potential.
Highest Regards.
hufington commented:
January 18, 2013, 6:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
I agree with your last paragraph. However with that being said regarding the 320 will not appeal to American car enthusiast, I recommend researching other BMW forums and there you'll read about how enthusiasts are discussing various options of tuning the 320's engine to achieve it's full potential.
Highest Regards.
I am aware of the search for improving the performance of the 320, but what is the point of spending a couple of thousand dollars to bring it at a 328 level when the price of a base 328 and 320 are only 4K from one another?
boltjaM3s commented:
January 18, 2013, 7:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I really don't see that BMW is doing anything differently than they have been doing for years. The base car comes with the standard suspension. The sport suspension is optional. Many other features, most of which I would consider luxury or convenience features are optional as well the same as they were on the E9x.

CA
The F30 base suspension is much softer than the E9X base suspension, so one has to spend money for the Sport suspension just to get back to scratch. Some say that isn't enough, have to go further to get the whole DHP including Adaptive M.

Regarding options, if you think of the 320i as a 328i with a "Performance Delete Package", one can save $4,000-$5,000 by merely taking out the horsepower and the leather.

So, yes, it's not different per se than past BMW 3 Series. However, this is the first time they're reshaping the horsepower and reshaping the Premium package so that someone can comfortably lease at $299, or go no higher than $399 for a very well-optioned car.

BJ
Michael Schott commented:
January 18, 2013, 8:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hufington View Post
A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
Simply, the 320 market in the US is not car enthusiasts. It's an entry level 3 series.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 18, 2013, 8:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hufington View Post
I am aware of the search for improving the performance of the 320, but what is the point of spending a couple of thousand dollars to bring it at a 328 level when the price of a base 328 and 320 are only 4K from one another?
You make a good point that should be directed to the enthusiasts. At first I was in total agreement with your comments regarding the introduction of the 320 into the US market until I looked the specs and realized it offered a big bang for the buck not only for entry level consumers but enthusiasts as well. I for one applaud the move and possibly might add one to my garage as daily driver.
dtc100 commented:
January 18, 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Simply, the 320 market in the US is not car enthusiasts. It's an entry level 3 series.
It can be for both. The fact you can get a sport package that is really for sporty driving only, and no other bells and whistles, that can appeal to many enthusiasts. For those who must have HP, get a tune for no more than $700 you are there.

The 320 is not for those who want bling bling (which has nothing to do with driving itself) to go with the car.
captainaudio commented:
January 19, 2013, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The F30 base suspension is much softer than the E9X base suspension, so one has to spend money for the Sport suspension just to get back to scratch. Some say that isn't enough, have to go further to get the whole DHP including Adaptive M.

Regarding options, if you think of the 320i as a 328i with a "Performance Delete Package", one can save $4,000-$5,000 by merely taking out the horsepower and the leather.

So, yes, it's not different per se than past BMW 3 Series. However, this is the first time they're reshaping the horsepower and reshaping the Premium package so that someone can comfortably lease at $299, or go no higher than $399 for a very well-optioned car.

BJ
I have very little experience with a standard suspension E9x and have never driven any iteration of an F30 so I will take your word for it. I was under the impression that the objections to the harshness of the E9x suspension was pretty much directed at the sport suspension. The harshness of the sport suspension on the E9x was a major issue for me and for a number of other people who I know who I would characterize as "enthusiasts".

With the technology available today there is no reason why a good handling car has to have a rock hard suspension and can not have a comfortable ride. Actually a rock hard suspension is bad for handling if the car is going to be driven in a real world environment. The point being that the fact that the F30 has a softer suspension than the E90 does not necessarily mean that it if not enthusiast oriented or does not handle as well. It it does not handle as well as the E90 it may just point to the fact that the suspension is poorly sorted out. That was certainly the case with the E9x sport suspension except that it was poorly sorted out in a different way.

What I wound up buying with (the 335i) was a sport/luxury car that it terms of ride quality and handling wasn't particularly good in either category. The irony was that it was easily rectified (once I figured out what to do) and if BMW had done it at the factory it probably would have not even added to the cost of manufacturing the car by a significant amount, if it all.

CA
dtc100 commented:
January 19, 2013, 12:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have very little experience with a standard suspension E9x and have never driven any iteration of an F30 so I will take your word for it. I was under the impression that the objections to the harshness of the E9x suspension was pretty much directed at the sport suspension. The harshness of the sport suspension on the E9x was a major issue for me and for a number of other people who I know who I would characterize as "enthusiasts".
CA
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
captainaudio commented:
January 19, 2013, 12:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
jenwon commented:
January 19, 2013, 8:01 am

The stripped down models are just targeting the brand conscious buyers. BMW to me was always about Performance + Luxury and the stripped down models are neither. Just get a decked out Accord or Camry and come out ahead with a better car and keep some $$ in your pocket.
dtc100 commented:
January 19, 2013, 9:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
The 2011 335is was definitely harsher than the 2011 335i m sport, but that was deliberate.
beden1 commented:
January 19, 2013, 9:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The 2011 335is was definitely harsher than the 2011 335i m sport, but that was deliberate.
The two cars use the same suspension. I don't have any issues with the suspension or ride in my 2011 335is vert. Possibly the ride is a bit softer in the vert as compared to the coupe like it is in the Porsche 911 GTS vert versus the coupe? Or, possibly there is no issue at all? I wanted a sporty convertible and that's what I got. If I wanted a cushy ride, I would have purchased a Buick (maybe now an F30 as the ride has been described as soft?)
Saintor commented:
January 19, 2013, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
Well my 2007 has no harshness. Very smooth riding even with the suspension lowered.
mdsbuc commented:
January 19, 2013, 9:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenwon View Post
The stripped down models are just targeting the brand conscious buyers. BMW to me was always about Performance + Luxury and the stripped down models are neither. Just get a decked out Accord or Camry and come out ahead with a better car and keep some $$ in your pocket.
I have to disagree with you. First of all, BMWs haven't always been about luxury. As to performance, I think that there are plenty of people who want the driver's "feel" that a BMW gives, especially if all you add is the sport package. There are a lot of driving enthusiasts who are not as concerned about straight ahead acceleration, but love the way a BMW "rides the rails" when cornering. They may also love the seats, steering wheel, love the dash display, love the "in the cockpit feel" that the F30 brings. These are things that an Accord or a Camry can never provide. The badge is secondary. I've owned a fully optioned Accord. It's fine transportation to get you from point A to point B. But, with front wheel drive, a steering wheel with no grip, and seats that won't hold you in place while cornering, it's no BMW. Not even a 320i.
.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
I'm comparing my 2009 E90 M-Sport XDrive with my 2013 F30 Luxury RWD.

My recollection was that my XDrive had the standard suspension, correct me please if I'm wrong there.

The F30 is just as planted as my E90 was. In fact, might be stickier in very tight curves at irresponsible speeds; comparing the two I feel more confident in the F30. All 4 wheels are locked-in, the DTC or DSC warning lights don't come on. And, very importantly, the road imperfections and pothole explosions of the E90 are a thing of the past.

The trade off is that the F30 has body lean in those turns that did not exist in the E90. Again, the F30 is planted in hard corners, the wheels do not slip a bit, but the body roll is evident. I assume that to soften the pothole situation the car leans.

Let me know if that makes sense.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Let me know if that makes sense.

BJ
Can a car feel more planted when there is too much body roll?
mynycbimmer commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
I have to disagree with you. First of all, BMWs haven't always been about luxury. As to performance, I think that there are plenty of people who want the driver's "feel" that a BMW gives, especially if all you add is the sport package. There are a lot of driving enthusiasts who are not as concerned about straight ahead acceleration, but love the way a BMW "rides the rails" when cornering. They may also love the seats, steering wheel, love the dash display, love the "in the cockpit feel" that the F30 brings. These are things that an Accord or a Camry can never provide. The badge is secondary. I've owned a fully optioned Accord. It's fine transportation to get you from point A to point B. But, with front wheel drive, a steering wheel with no grip, and seats that won't hold you in place while cornering, it's no BMW. Not even a 320i.
.
Driving enthusiasts are a very small minority of buyers. Someone posted that the average BMW buyer was 48 years old. Seems high to me but, if true, at that age I would imagine comfort is a higher priority than being able to "ride the rails".
Saintor commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Can a car feel more planted when there is too much body roll?
Answer; no.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Can a car feel more planted when there is too much body roll?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Answer; no.
By "planted" I mean that the 4 wheels are sticking like glue, not even close to a skid or loss of control. My Luxury line on the standard suspension is 100% 'planted' by that definition. No different than my E90.

But the body that sits atop that suspension, different. My E90 didn't lean where the F30 does.

I'm not an enthusiast, never even added washer fluid to my car, don't even know where the hood release on the car is, but methinks that something connecting the two bodies to the two suspensions is different and that's why both are equally planted/grippy at the wheels but behave differently at the seats.

BJ
PK2348 commented:
January 19, 2013, 10:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm not an enthusiast, never even added washer fluid to my car, don't even know where the hood release on the car is,

BJ
i think we can tell
boltjaM3s commented:
January 19, 2013, 11:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
i think we can tell
Until you apologize for your rude behavior last week, you and I don't speak.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 19, 2013, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
By "planted" I mean that the 4 wheels are sticking like glue, not even close to a skid or loss of control.

BJ
When driving no more tham speed limit, all cars, even with the most crappy tires, should be planted. I think this is how speed limit is designed on the public road
mr_clueless commented:
January 19, 2013, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
By "planted" I mean that the 4 wheels are sticking like glue, not even close to a skid or loss of control. My Luxury line on the standard suspension is 100% 'planted' by that definition. No different than my E90.

But the body that sits atop that suspension, different. My E90 didn't lean where the F30 does.

I'm not an enthusiast, never even added washer fluid to my car, don't even know where the hood release on the car is, but methinks that something connecting the two bodies to the two suspensions is different and that's why both are equally planted/grippy at the wheels but behave differently at the seats.
"Planted" probably means different things to different people...to me planted means the car is super steady, so much that it inspires confidence that it can be pushed, and that, I feel is missing from the standard suspension in the F30. I agree, that once the car is pushed, it is super sticky, but so is A4 and the the C class (from my test drives). The difference with my E46 (and from my drives of the E90) is that it inspires confidence in a way which the base F30 does not.
mdsbuc commented:
January 19, 2013, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
Driving enthusiasts are a very small minority of buyers. Someone posted that the average BMW buyer was 48 years old. Seems high to me but, if true, at that age I would imagine comfort is a higher priority than being able to "ride the rails".
The point is that I don't believe that the 320 is "just targeting brand conscious buyers." There will be plenty of others buying because they will actually like the car, for a variety of reasons.....
I'd be offended if the 320i was my choice for a car and I was looked upon as essentially a "brand whore."
mr_clueless commented:
January 19, 2013, 11:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
The point is that I don't believe that the 320 is "just targeting brand conscious buyers." There will be plenty of others buying because they will actually like the car, for a variety of reasons.....
I'd be offended if the 320i was my choice for a car and I was looked upon as essentially a "brand whore."
The average person is going to look at you at a "badge whore" because the car has the badge on it and cars just don't matter enough to them to pay twice what a regular car costs.
PK2348 commented:
January 19, 2013, 12:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Until you apologize for your rude behavior last week, you and I don't speak.

BJ
ohhhhhh, i hope i did not make you cry. seriously though, despite your posts being condescending, obnoxious and extremely shallow, they are very entertaining to read. Now, while you're waiting for me to apologize, why dont you test drive a lexus? it has perfect driving characteristics for your taste
justinnum1 commented:
January 19, 2013, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
ohhhhhh, i hope i did not make you cry. seriously though, despite your posts being condescending, obnoxious and extremely shallow, they are very entertaining to read. Now, while you're waiting for me to apologize, why dont you test drive a lexus? it has perfect driving characteristics for your taste
krash commented:
January 19, 2013, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
"Planted" probably means different things to different people...to me planted means the car is super steady, so much that it inspires confidence that it can be pushed, and that, I feel is missing from the standard suspension in the F30. I agree, that once the car is pushed, it is super sticky, but so is A4 and the the C class (from my test drives). The difference with my E46 (and from my drives of the E90) is that it inspires confidence in a way which the base F30 does not.
DHP, the Sport line or both solve that problem.
Saintor commented:
January 19, 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
"Planted" probably means different things to different people...
Specially for people who never drive their car above 7/10 of its potential.
mr_clueless commented:
January 19, 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
DHP, the Sport line or both solve that problem.
Don't know about DHP because I haven't driven it, but sports line definitely feels better in that respect.
mr_clueless commented:
January 19, 2013, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Specially for people who never drive their car above 7/10 of its potential.
I don't about that...I feel it even when simply cruising at highway speeds.
pony_trekker commented:
January 19, 2013, 2:39 pm

Okay comparing to E92 xdrive -- if I am looking at the F30 sedan do I need

1. Sports line
2. DHP
3. Both?

Heaven forbid I could find one to test drive.
PK2348 commented:
January 19, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
Okay comparing to E92 xdrive -- if I am looking at the F30 sedan do I need

1. Sports line
2. DHP
3. Both?

Heaven forbid I could find one to test drive.
I think DHP is worth every penny. Really, the best option you can add, unless you're planning to mod suspension later. Keep in mind if F30 is an xdrive you will not get sport suspension with sport line, so for xdrive dhp is a must. sport line is worth it for the seats, steering wheel and nicer rims
boltjaM3s commented:
January 19, 2013, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
ohhhhhh, i hope i did not make you cry. seriously though, despite your posts being condescending, obnoxious and extremely shallow, they are very entertaining to read. Now, while you're waiting for me to apologize, why dont you test drive a lexus? it has perfect driving characteristics for your taste
I am not the person you think I am. Nobody that knows me would describe me as condescending, obnoxious, or shallow. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Just the other day in my F30 on the drive to the office, I saw a homeless man walking in traffic freezing with a paper cup asking for money. I put down the window, asked him not to touch the car, reached into my Tumi folio, found some loose change, pulled out the quarters, and gave him the rest. Must've been $.13 or so in assorted nickels, dimes, and pennies.

Apologize or don't respond to me again.

BJ
pony_trekker commented:
January 19, 2013, 6:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
I think DHP is worth every penny. Really, the best option you can add, unless you're planning to mod suspension later. Keep in mind if F30 is an xdrive you will not get sport suspension with sport line, so for xdrive dhp is a must. sport line is worth it for the seats, steering wheel and nicer rims
So for suspension I might as well opt for modern line w DHP instead of sports line for x drive. I like the modern line rims better.
Saintor commented:
January 19, 2013, 7:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I am not the person you think I am. Nobody that knows me would describe me as condescending, obnoxious, or shallow. Quite the opposite, in fact.
...
Apologize or don't respond to me again.

BJ
Your last sentence proves him right (and you wrong).
mr_clueless commented:
January 19, 2013, 7:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
So for suspension I might as well opt for modern line w DHP instead of sports line for x drive. I like the modern line rims better.
The only material reason to get sport with xdrive are the seats. If you don't care about that, then you can pick the line based on other things like interior/exterior trim and color.
PK2348 commented:
January 19, 2013, 7:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
So for suspension I might as well opt for modern line w DHP instead of sports line for x drive. I like the modern line rims better.
yes, if you like modern interior, a lot of people are not crazy about it, but its a personal choice. I drove one and did not like it. Now sport seats are really worth it though. Can you get sport xdrive with DHP and swap for modern rims?
pony_trekker commented:
January 19, 2013, 7:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
yes, if you like modern interior, a lot of people are not crazy about it, but its a personal choice. I drove one and did not like it. Now sport seats are really worth it though. Can you get sport xdrive with DHP and swap for modern rims?
We'll see. My lease ends in NOV I will try to drive as many as I can. Rims could change though.

I like my steering tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPUHdUMc5Zo
mr_clueless commented:
January 20, 2013, 1:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
We'll see. My lease ends in NOV I will try to drive as many as I can. Rims could change though.

I like my steering tight.
One more thing -- if you're going with auto, sport auto and paddles are only available on sport line.
shabadoo25 commented:
January 20, 2013, 5:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
When driving no more tham speed limit, all cars, even with the most crappy tires, should be planted. I think this is how speed limit is designed on the public road
Try driving a Sonata or an Optima and then report back on that.
Chris90 commented:
January 20, 2013, 7:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm comparing my 2009 E90 M-Sport XDrive with my 2013 F30 Luxury RWD.

My recollection was that my XDrive had the standard suspension, correct me please if I'm wrong there.

The F30 is just as planted as my E90 was. In fact, might be stickier in very tight curves at irresponsible speeds; comparing the two I feel more confident in the F30. All 4 wheels are locked-in, the DTC or DSC warning lights don't come on. And, very importantly, the road imperfections and pothole explosions of the E90 are a thing of the past.

The trade off is that the F30 has body lean in those turns that did not exist in the E90. Again, the F30 is planted in hard corners, the wheels do not slip a bit, but the body roll is evident. I assume that to soften the pothole situation the car leans.

Let me know if that makes sense.

BJ
The F30's newer suspension design is probably better at keeping each tire connected to the road. Possibly the improved runflats or lighter wheels helps (if they're even lighter).
dtc100 commented:
January 21, 2013, 9:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Try driving a Sonata or an Optima and then report back on that.
I had driven an Optima sedan and a Genesis coupe, they are quite "planted" to me at speed limit.

BTW, when is the 2 series 4-door "coupe" going to be available? That will be the match for the CLA and A3.
shabadoo25 commented:
January 21, 2013, 10:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I had driven an Optima sedan and a Genesis coupe, they are quite "planted" to me at speed limit.

BTW, when is the 2 series 4-door "coupe" going to be available? That will be the match for the CLA and A3.
The Genesis coupe is another story.

Try taking a sharp highway curve at speed in one of the Korean cars. See if you can do it without tapping your brakes. The body roll is excessive.
iamthewalrus commented:
January 21, 2013, 12:11 pm

It's all about volume. Selling 320s will enable BMW to defray the R&D costs of the platform across more units. While the engine is different, many of the other components and the assembly lines are the same.
VW Group has a cost advantage, because they own VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Seat and Skoda. Technology that starts out in the high-end cars eventually ends up in the most basic cars which provides VW Group an inherent cost advantage.
dtc100 commented:
January 21, 2013, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
The Genesis coupe is another story.

Try taking a sharp highway curve at speed in one of the Korean cars. See if you can do it without tapping your brakes. The body roll is excessive.
Who is talking about making fast, sharp turns? What did you not understand when I said driving under speed limit at all times, a requirement for BJ and his 98% BMW drivers?
dtc100 commented:
January 21, 2013, 12:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
It's all about volume. Selling 320s will enable BMW to defray the R&D costs of the platform across more units. While the engine is different, many of the other components and the assembly lines are the same.
VW Group has a cost advantage, because they own VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Seat and Skoda. Technology that starts out in the high-end cars eventually ends up in the most basic cars which provides VW Group an inherent cost advantage.
Keep selling 328 will defray R&D cost too, but make $4k more profit each for BMW. Unless we see BMW selling twice the volume of F30 by introducing 320.

Also I pointed out, 320 is not meant to compete with CLA or A3, the upcoming 2 series 4-door coupe is.
PK2348 commented:
January 21, 2013, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Keep selling 328 will defray R&D cost too, but make $4k more profit each for BMW. Unless we see BMW selling twice the volume of F30 by introducing 320.

Also I pointed out, 320 is not meant to compete with CLA or A3, the upcoming 2 series 4-door coupe is.
are they going to bring the 2 series 4 door coupe to US? or at least the M135 hatchback? Does anyone know when?
iamthewalrus commented:
January 21, 2013, 3:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Keep selling 328 will defray R&D cost too, but make $4k more profit each for BMW. Unless we see BMW selling twice the volume of F30 by introducing 320.
Agreed. They are not mutually exclusive. The 320 does not replace the 328 or 335, only expands the range.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 21, 2013, 4:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Keep selling 328 will defray R&D cost too, but make $4k more profit each for BMW. Unless we see BMW selling twice the volume of F30 by introducing 320.
Business school, much?

Each 328i will not make "$4,000 more profit for BMW". You are looking at this all wrong.

1. If you are referring to the variance in MSRP, that's $4,000 in sales, not $4,000 in profit. Profit margins on automobiles tend to be in the 6-8% range, so the bottom line 'hit' to BMW for selling a car that's $4,000 less expensive is only $280.

2. If BMW sells 30% more 3 Series as a result of the lower priced model, they get better prices on raw materials and components from their suppliers for all cars, will help the margins on every car BMW makes, certainly offsets the 320i's impact significantly.

3. What BMW is doing is "trading sales for market share and acquiring new brand-loyal buyers in the process". I'm sure they've run a lifetime value analysis of the typical current 3 buyer and applied it to the new mix with the cheaper car and determined that by losing $280 in profit to acquire a new customer in Year 1 it will generate $1000's of dollars of incremental profit over the course of 10+ years of repeat brand purchases.

4. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that BMW is getting ridiculous profit margins on options and packages. For years we hear people complain "I can get a $150 Nuvi that does a better job than BMW's nav for $2,000". BMW is likely making $800 on every Technology package, Sport package, Premium package, Cold Weather package, etc. So by losing $280 on the MSRP profit BMW has its customers have free cash to buy extremely profitable packages and options.

5. Translation: BMW will make more money on a 320i than a 328i considering a) the buyers will be apt to add more profitable add-ons and b) their suppliers will lower their costs on materials as c) the lifetime value of the new customers they acquire increases while d) their stock price will soar due to the e) increase in marketshare taken away from key competitors.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 21, 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Business school, much?

Each 328i will not make "$4,000 more profit for BMW". You are looking at this all wrong.

1. If you are referring to the variance in MSRP, that's $4,000 in sales, not $4,000 in profit. Profit margins on automobiles tend to be in the 6-8% range, so the bottom line 'hit' to BMW for selling a car that's $4,000 less expensive is only $280.

BJ
I don't know which school you went to. Based on what we can tell, thé cost of manufacturing a 320i and a base 328i are not so different. BMW is known to make 10%+ profit margin, which the 320i will give up the bulk of it. Selling 30% more F30 in the form of 320i will not help.

People who go to a dealer looking for a 320i are more value oriented, and less likely to pay for all the add ons compared to the 328i buyers.

Your other theory was already out of the window, the 320i is not a direct answer to the CLA or A3, the upcoming 2 series 4-door is.
jlsbimmer commented:
January 21, 2013, 6:13 pm

I was on the bmw.ca website .. did I see it right that you can NOT get the 320i with any kind of sport package ??

btw - the base 328i is around $9000 more than the 320i based on that site.
Chris90 commented:
January 21, 2013, 6:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
are they going to bring the 2 series 4 door coupe to US? or at least the M135 hatchback? Does anyone know when?
The hatchback never. The sedan is probably way out, like 2014 or 2015. Might even see a FWD 1 series sedan first.
3ismagic# commented:
January 21, 2013, 6:37 pm

The 320i will no doubt cannibalize some sales from the 328i. But the loss will more than be made up by expansion of demand at the bottom end.

No doubt BJ is super excited to no longer be driving an entry-level model.
hans007 commented:
January 21, 2013, 6:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Keep selling 328 will defray R&D cost too, but make $4k more profit each for BMW. Unless we see BMW selling twice the volume of F30 by introducing 320.

Also I pointed out, 320 is not meant to compete with CLA or A3, the upcoming 2 series 4-door coupe is.
Except the 320i is. As much as a 2 series is cheaper it only had 2 doors. The majority of people buy four door cars because its more practical. And this is BMW giving them at least a stop gap alternative. The 320i will still probably cost more than an a3 sedan. But it will also be bigger . The 2 series many buyers will immediately not consider since it won't have 4 doors.
PK2348 commented:
January 21, 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
The hatchback never. The sedan is probably way out, like 2014 or 2015. Might even see a FWD 1 series sedan first.
Never. that sounds so finite. It's an ugly little car but i would get in a heart beat. 2015 works for me, that's when F30 lease is over. Thanks for responding. Hope you're right about the sedan and wrong about the hatchback
dtc100 commented:
January 21, 2013, 7:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
Except the 320i is. As much as a 2 series is cheaper it only had 2 doors. The majority of people buy four door cars because its more practical. And this is BMW giving them at least a stop gap alternative. The 320i will still probably cost more than an a3 sedan. But it will also be bigger . The 2 series many buyers will immediately not consider since it won't have 4 doors.
The 2 series 4-door should come this way, 5-door hatch probably not, although I don't understand why not. BMW did bring X1 here finally, and it is selling like hot cake, so maybe they will figure this out too.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 21, 2013, 7:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
Except the 320i is. As much as a 2 series is cheaper it only had 2 doors. The majority of people buy four door cars because its more practical. And this is BMW giving them at least a stop gap alternative. The 320i will still probably cost more than an a3 sedan. But it will also be bigger . The 2 series many buyers will immediately not consider since it won't have 4 doors.
I agree with your comment that the 320i is more practical. We're looking at it as daily driver... that can be spec out with the Sports Pack plus limited options for a reasonable price. Data suggests it will have peppy engine, eight speed trans and it will be less expensive then the top tier of the F30 lineup. What's not to like?
bayoucity commented:
January 21, 2013, 7:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
The 320i will no doubt cannibalize some sales from the 328i. But the loss will more than be made up by expansion of demand at the bottom end.

No doubt BJ is super excited to no longer be driving an entry-level model.
Give it another 2 1/2 years, you'll see him trolling around Walmart parking lot in a 2016 L320i Luxury sedan /w Status Pack.
mr_clueless commented:
January 21, 2013, 8:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Give it another 2 1/2 years, you'll see him trolling around Walmart parking lot in a 2016 L320i Luxury sedan /w Status Pack.
Unless BMW changes something there is no L320i.
beden1 commented:
January 21, 2013, 8:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Unless BMW changes something there is no L320i.
There will be if BMW sells a stick on L.
mr_clueless commented:
January 21, 2013, 8:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
There will be if BMW sells a stick on L.
Thats why I said "Unless BMW changes something..."
bayoucity commented:
January 21, 2013, 9:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Unless BMW changes something there is no L320i.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
There will be if BMW sells a stick on L.
I'm being sarcastic.



boltjaM3s commented:
January 21, 2013, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post

No doubt BJ is super excited to no longer be driving an entry-level model.


Ah, Luxury.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 21, 2013, 10:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
Give it another 2 1/2 years, you'll see him trolling around Walmart parking lot in a 2016 L320i Luxury sedan /w Status Pack.
Correction:

L420i Coupe. Or, perhaps, a L Gran Coupe. The kids are older now, the oldest will be off to College and dad won't need no 4-door any more.

BJ
y789 commented:
January 21, 2013, 11:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I don't know which school you went to. Based on what we can tell, thé cost of manufacturing a 320i and a base 328i are not so different. BMW is known to make 10%+ profit margin, which the 320i will give up the bulk of it. Selling 30% more F30 in the form of 320i will not help.

People who go to a dealer looking for a 320i are more value oriented, and less likely to pay for all the add ons compared to the 328i buyers.

Your other theory was already out of the window, the 320i is not a direct answer to the CLA or A3, the upcoming 2 series 4-door is.
If that's the case then BMW must be out of business already. They sell far more 316, 318 and 320 in europe than 328 or 335. yes, cost is not proportionaly different between different engines but each 3 series regardles of engine will make health profit to BMW, else no point in making something with little margin.
Bmwlvr60 commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:19 am

No Dynamic Handling Package option with new 320. This is what makes a BMW The Ultimate Driving Machine.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:19 am

A cheap BMW sedan. Isn't that sad?
bayoucity commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
A cheap BMW sedan. Isn't that sad?
Why the long face? Badge whores nationwide rejoice !!!
dtc100 commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by y789 View Post
If that's the case then BMW must be out of business already. They sell far more 316, 318 and 320 in europe than 328 or 335. yes, cost is not proportionaly different between different engines but each 3 series regardles of engine will make health profit to BMW, else no point in making something with little margin.
The same model has a much lower price tag in the US than elsewhere in the world. Unless you can offer your own math to dispute my contention, for example if you think BMW will cut cost on the 320i, making it much cheaper to manufacture than the 328i. Otherwise the $4k lower price will hit profit margin, there is no way around this.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 2:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
A cheap BMW sedan. Isn't that sad?
Cost is relative. It's not really cheap. The 320 is more expensive than an Acura TSX and ILX, and both are considered entry level luxury cars.

Plus, the 320 is not new. It's always been available in other countries, and not only that, you can get 318s and 316s in other countries as well.

So I'm not really sure what your point is.
hans007 commented:
January 22, 2013, 6:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
No Dynamic Handling Package option with new 320. This is what makes a BMW The Ultimate Driving Machine.


this seems like a pretty dumb statement. there is a sport package with the 320i. the car is still RWD. its still more than fast enough to have a fun drive in.

seems like it'd still be a pretty good car to drive. just not as good as higher model BMWs. but i'd still drive a sport pack 320i every day of the week over say a v6 camry or a 2.0 fusion
beden1 commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
this seems like a pretty dumb statement. there is a sport package with the 320i. the car is still RWD. its still more than fast enough to have a fun drive in.

seems like it'd still be a pretty good car to drive. just not as good as higher model BMWs. but i'd still drive a sport pack 320i every day of the week over say a v6 camry or a 2.0 fusion
I agree. Some people just don't get it.
Bmwlvr60 commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
this seems like a pretty dumb statement. there is a sport package with the 320i. the car is still RWD. its still more than fast enough to have a fun drive in.

seems like it'd still be a pretty good car to drive. just not as good as higher model BMWs. but i'd still drive a sport pack 320i every day of the week over say a v6 camry or a 2.0 fusion
The new 320 is plenty fast. My point is that I'm surprised a 3 series isn't being offered with DHP as an option. It still blows away the Japanese competitors with handling I'm sure.
Michael Schott commented:
January 22, 2013, 10:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
A cheap BMW sedan. Isn't that sad?
You are thinking like an American. Cheap BMW's and 4 cylinder models have been in Europe for decades. Not sad.
Michael Schott commented:
January 22, 2013, 10:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
The new 320 is plenty fast. My point is that I'm surprised a 3 series isn't being offered with DHP as an option. It still blows away the Japanese competitors with handling I'm sure.
There are a lot of option limits on this car vs the 328.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are thinking like an American. Cheap BMW's and 4 cylinder models have been in Europe for decades. Not sad.
I think you meant it as an insult. But I'll take it as a compliment.

For decades, BMW has been considered a premium car, at least here in the United States. Now with $30K options being introduced, that in my opinion is starting to dilute the brand. You can probably spec out an Accord now for $30.

And I don't like the fact that my $40K 328i now looks pretty much like a $30K 320i. That in my mind reduces it's exclusiveness.

I didn't mind the 1-series so much because it had different body style to distinguish it.

Will have to seriously consider a 4-series when it is time to buy a new car.

I know many will disagree with this, but many more will agree too.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post

And I don't like the fact that my $37K 328i now looks pretty much like a $33K 320i. That in my mind reduces it's exclusiveness.
Fixed that for you.

This has always been the case between the 335 and 328 and I always found the mentality obnoxious. Now it spreads to 328 owners too, how nice!
dtc100 commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:23 am

The DHP obviously is more complex and cost more to add in. Given the nearly $4k price cut, the fact the 320 actually offers a sport package with all the necessary sporty elements and at a lower package price, is a win already. Complain about something else, the lack of DHP is not one of them.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are thinking like an American. Cheap BMW's and 4 cylinder models have been in Europe for decades. Not sad.
I would say it a little differently than that. You're basically right, except the part about thinking like an American. Most people on this forum are Americans., Its only a small # of people on this forum that don't know BMW sells a ton of cheaper models elsewhere.

Plus, the 320 hardly qualifies as being cheap in the first place, so I really don't get WTH he was talking about.
namelessman commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
For decades, BMW has been considered a premium car, at least here in the United States. Now with $30K options being introduced, that in my opinion is starting to dilute the brand. You can probably spec out an Accord now for $30.
BMW is once again attempting to adopt the Euro business model to the US(eg. E36 318ti), whether it works or not, they will adapt accordingly.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Fixed that for you.

This has always been the case between the 335 and 328 and I always found the mentality obnoxious. Now it spreads to 328 owners too, how nice!
I suppose I feel your pain now.

Regarding the price - I don't believe the invoice price for the 320i has been published yet, but it will probably be $30K. And many dealers will sell for invoice.
y789 commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Fixed that for you.

This has always been the case between the 335 and 328 and I always found the mentality obnoxious. Now it spreads to 328 owners too, how nice!
exactly what comes to mind, now think about the 5 series owners how do they look at the 3 series, or the 7 series owners what do they think of 5 series!

to the skeptics, a BMW is a BMW regardless of the engine and price point. Drive a 320i and drive then go drive a Honda and tell me if they compare!
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
I would say it a little differently than that. You're basically right, except the part about thinking like an American. Most people on this forum are Americans., Its only a small # of people on this forum that don't know BMW sells a ton of cheaper models elsewhere.

Plus, the 320 hardly qualifies as being cheap in the first place, so I really don't get WTH he was talking about.
If you think ACCORD is cheap. Then so is the 320i. Both can be configured for the same price.

It's good for BMW though to introduce cheaper models. They sell more cars. Get more people hooked on to BMWs too. And those like me who want a "bit" exclusive car will strive for the next model up (4-series) for their next car.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by y789 View Post
Drive a 320i and drive then go drive a Honda and tell me if they compare!
I don't want to start a war here but how different do you expect a 320i to drive from a top of the line Accord?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 22, 2013, 11:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
I suppose I feel your pain now.

Regarding the price - I don't believe the invoice price for the 320i has been published yet, but it will probably be $30K. And many dealers will sell for invoice.
What does it matter, just compare MSRP's as it lacks variables that muddy up comparisons. Base to base is $37k vs $33k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
I don't want to start a war here but how different do you expect a 320i to drive from a top of the line Accord?
Fairly different...the reason


Architecture.

RWD vs FWD changes the whole design and construction of a car.

Look at where the weight is carried on a FWD car while a 3 series allows for a design thats nets 50/50 weight balance.

I have driven great handling FWD cars. But they almost always have to come with the caveat...for FWD.

The Accord(going to drive one on Saturday as a new car for my M-I-L) and I expect for it to be a well made, good driving and solid car. But its inherent design/architecture keeps it from being a proper sports/sporty sedan. This is also often true of FWD cars given an AWD variant, same issues apply.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
If you think ACCORD is cheap. Then so is the 320i. Both can be configured for the same price.
There is overlap, but I disagree with that line of thinking, because you basically have to load up the Accord with everything and strip the 320 to the bone for that to be true. A nicely equipped 320, which most people will want, is going to be around $40k.

Plus, based on the average household income in America today, I wouldn't consider a loaded Accord to be cheap anyway.

Just because i drive around in $50,000 cars, that doesn't mean a car with a base price of $33k is cheap by most peoples' standards.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
What does it matter, just compare MSRP's as it lacks variables that muddy up comparisons. Base to base is $37k vs $33k.



Fairly different...the reason


Architecture.

RWD vs FWD changes the whole design and construction of a car.

Look at where the weight is carried on a FWD car while a 3 series allows for a design thats nets 50/50 weight balance.

I have driven great handling FWD cars. But they almost always have to come with the caveat...for FWD.

The Accord(going to drive one on Saturday as a new car for my M-I-L) and I expect for it to be a well made, good driving and solid car. But its inherent design/architecture keeps it from being a proper sports/sporty sedan. This is also often true of FWD cars given an AWD variant, same issues apply.
We are on the BMW forum so obviously a bias is expected. But really, drive that Accord on Saturday and report back. I think you yourself will be surprised.

Just a disclaimer, I haven't driven an Accord in years. But recently I have had an opportunity to drive a couple of new model full sized sedans as rentals, like the Malibu and I have to say I was impressed. Of course they were no BMWs but they didn't cost as much either. I suspect the differences between a high end Accord and entry level 320i are diminishing.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
I don't want to start a war here but how different do you expect a 320i to drive from a top of the line Accord?
Honda Accord = FWD = Torque steer.



There is no way you can compare that to a RWD BMW. I don't care how much they strip it down. The RWD BMW will always be superior.
donquixotesque commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
There is overlap, but I disagree with that line of thinking, because you basically have to load up the Accord with everything and strip the 320 to the bone for that to be true. A nicely equipped 320, which most people will want, is going to be around $40k.
I would think that a loaded accord would have everything an entry 320i has for the most part.

And while you might assume that most people will want a nicely equipped 320i, I would assume most people wanting to buying a 320i will keep it modestly equipped.

For every F30 owner on this forum that has a really nicely equipped BMW, there is one who has a modestly version. And then everything in between.
justinnum1 commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
this seems like a pretty dumb statement. there is a sport package with the 320i. the car is still RWD. its still more than fast enough to have a fun drive in.

seems like it'd still be a pretty good car to drive. just not as good as higher model BMWs. but i'd still drive a sport pack 320i every day of the week over say a v6 camry or a 2.0 fusion
its the dumbest statement i have ever read. only a fool would say such a stupid thing.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
I would think that a loaded accord would have everything an entry 320i has for the most part.
.
The loaded Accord is going to have a lot more gadgets and creature comforts. Look it up. You will find that I am right.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 22, 2013, 12:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
We are on the BMW forum so obviously a bias is expected. But really, drive that Accord on Saturday and report back. I think you yourself will be surprised.

Just a disclaimer, I haven't driven an Accord in years. But recently I have had an opportunity to drive a couple of new model full sized sedans as rentals, like the Malibu and I have to say I was impressed. Of course they were no BMWs but they didn't cost as much either. I suspect the differences between a high end Accord and entry level 320i are diminishing.
Plenty of people here have bias or are BMW fanbois, I am not one of them. I buy 10-15 cars a year(friends, family, coworkers) of all brands. I also have a background in car design and overall product development. Most all of my cars were FWD and were often modified and auto-x'd.

So I hold to my statements. My in laws just replaced a last gen Accord with a loaded $33k Optima. I like what I am hearing about the new Accord. Its structure and weight balance is factual, not an opinion. It will drive well, but some inherent qualities in it's design and structure cannot be overcome. To my knowledge there has never been a FWD car with 50/50 balance.

I also put 2k miles on a new '13 Altima this week. I am very up to date on what is out there in the segment.
SamS commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
The loaded Accord is going to have a lot more gadgets and creature comforts. Look it up. You will find that I am right.
Yep. A loaded Accord (EX-L w/Nav), or any loaded Honda will have way more features than even a base model 335i. For example, Bluetooth audio streaming, leather, Navigation, heated seats, cameras, etc.
BMW220i commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It will drive well, but some inherent qualities in it's design and structure cannot be overcome. To my knowledge there has never been a FWD car with 50/50 balance.
.
Do you really want a 50/50 balance in a FWD? Part of the advantages of FWD is in bad winter weather where there's more weight over the front drive wheels to give you more traction in the snow.

FWD is also better to reduce the size of the hump, creating more interior space.

My feeling is that if you have RWD, you should have 50/50 balance. The Lexus IS250 is terrible in that it is about 60/40 or 63/37 yet has RWD.

One can have a FWD that handles well, even better than a RWD car. However, the best RWD car will handle better than FWD in good weather. Since many RWD cars are not contenders for the best RWD, I think there's a big place in the market for FWD. There's a much smaller role for RWD, which is filled with cars like BMWs. The ordinary cars and minivans on the road are better as FWD. Likewise, if one skims on tires, just give up a BMW unless one is buying it merely for status.
krash commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Yep. A loaded Accord (EX-L w/Nav), or any loaded Honda will have way more features than even a base model 335i. For example, Bluetooth audio streaming, leather, Navigation, heated seats, cameras, etc.
Yes, exactly. That's why it's sort of fallacious to say a 320 is the same price as a Honda Accord. If you load 'em up with identical features, the 320 will be $40,000+ and much more expensive than an Accord.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
Do you really want a 50/50 balance in a FWD? Part of the advantages of FWD is in bad winter weather where there's more weight over the front drive wheels to give you more traction in the snow.

FWD is also better to reduce the size of the hump, creating more interior space.

My feeling is that if you have RWD, you should have 50/50 balance. The Lexus IS250 is terrible in that it is about 60/40 or 63/37 yet has RWD.

One can have a FWD that handles well, even better than a RWD car. However, the best RWD car will handle better than FWD in good weather. Since many RWD cars are not contenders for the best RWD, I think there's a big place in the market for FWD. There's a much smaller role for RWD, which is filled with cars like BMWs. The ordinary cars and minivans on the road are better as FWD. Likewise, if one skims on tires, just give up a BMW unless one is buying it merely for status.
It was a statement without qualification. The 50/50 applied to FWD would offer some benefit but at the expense of others. I never said FWD does not have it's place.

My Saabs were amazing in winter, especially with snow tires.

So much of this debate is by people who not only do not drive cars towards their capabilities but also do not drive enough cars of varying configuration.

Magazine reviews and numbers are great and all. But driving the new Altima for ten minutes communicates to much as to the feel, something that the BMW has that is hard go write about.

I had the same debate with a GM head when I was saying how good the new Boxster is when he automatically stated the new Vette would be better. I explained the light weight inherent in the Boxster and purity in controls of steering, brakes, handling, are hard to replicate in the heavier C7 no matter how much faster it may be. I told him to drive both cars. That is what it comes down to. Drive 'em. The rest is just BS.
SamS commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yes, exactly. That's why it's sort of fallacios to say a 320 is the same price as a Honda Accord. If you load 'em up with identical features, the 320 will be $40,000+ and much more expensive than an Accord.
I have owned several Hondas (just sold my Accord, wife has '12 CR-V loaded), and I played with the Accord and 320i configurators. There is a basically a $10K premium for the BMW, when you spec them out with similar options. I can't see many non-enthusiasts picking the 320i, and to most people, they will drive the same.
dtc100 commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I have owned several Hondas (just sold my Accord, wife has '12 CR-V loaded), and I played with the Accord and 320i configurators. There is a basically a $10K premium for the BMW, when you spec them out with similar options. I can't see many non-enthusiasts picking the 320i, and to most people, they will drive the same.
I can't say if the 320i will drive very different than the Accord V6, but I drove one Accord V6 lately, it was very different than my E90 328i. The FWD, CVT, the brake and steering feel...all different.

Basically you don't really want to push the Accord V6 close to its limit, it will not make you feel very good. Most mainstream family sedans are not designed to encourage you to push it to the limit, even when they have the more powerful engines.

The only benefit of a more powerful engine in those cars, is so you can load the car full of passengers and junk, still drive on the passing lane up the hill.
Michael Schott commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
I think you meant it as an insult. But I'll take it as a compliment.

For decades, BMW has been considered a premium car, at least here in the United States. Now with $30K options being introduced, that in my opinion is starting to dilute the brand. You can probably spec out an Accord now for $30.

And I don't like the fact that my $40K 328i now looks pretty much like a $30K 320i. That in my mind reduces it's exclusiveness.

I didn't mind the 1-series so much because it had different body style to distinguish it.

Will have to seriously consider a 4-series when it is time to buy a new car.

I know many will disagree with this, but many more will agree too.
Sorry, I did not mean it as an insult. To clarify, I thought you were looking at the 320i from an US centric point of view meaning ignorance of the various European models. Otherwise, there is very little exclusivity to owing a 3 series in the US. BMW sells 100,000/year here.

By the way, a top of the line Accord is now about $34K!

I'm not sure of BMW's strategy with the 320i other than the cost of the 328 has risen very quickly as of late. An F30 is probably out of my budget now. My lightly optioned 2011 E90 with Value Package, leather, heated seats, metallic paint and rear shades retailed for about $36,500.00. A comparably equipped F30 admittedly with more std features is about $40K. It has moved upscale, thus the more affordable 320i.
mr_clueless commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
My feeling is that if you have RWD, you should have 50/50 balance. The Lexus IS250 is terrible in that it is about 60/40 or 63/37 yet has RWD.
Where did you get that data? According to http://autos.yahoo.com/lexus/is/2011...fications.html, it's 52/48.
SamS commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I can't say if the 320i will drive very different than the Accord V6, but I drove one Accord V6 lately, it was very different than my E90 328i. The FWD, CVT, the brake and steering feel...all different.

Basically you don't really want to push the Accord V6 close to its limit, it will not make you feel very good. Most mainstream family sedans are not designed to encourage you to push it to the limit, even when they have the more powerful engines.

The only benefit of a more powerful engine in those cars, is so you can load the car full of passengers and junk, still drive on the passing lane up the hill.
You are describing differences that the majority of buyers will not notice or feel during their average commute to work or running errands. Which is where the average person spends most of their time.
Michael Schott commented:
January 22, 2013, 1:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
Do you really want a 50/50 balance in a FWD? Part of the advantages of FWD is in bad winter weather where there's more weight over the front drive wheels to give you more traction in the snow.

FWD is also better to reduce the size of the hump, creating more interior space.

My feeling is that if you have RWD, you should have 50/50 balance. The Lexus IS250 is terrible in that it is about 60/40 or 63/37 yet has RWD.

One can have a FWD that handles well, even better than a RWD car. However, the best RWD car will handle better than FWD in good weather. Since many RWD cars are not contenders for the best RWD, I think there's a big place in the market for FWD. There's a much smaller role for RWD, which is filled with cars like BMWs. The ordinary cars and minivans on the road are better as FWD. Likewise, if one skims on tires, just give up a BMW unless one is buying it merely for status.
Not sure where you are getting your info but the IS250 has a 52/48% weight distribution.

(Oops, Mr Clueless beat me to it.)
dtc100 commented:
January 22, 2013, 2:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
You are describing differences that the majority of buyers will not notice or feel during their average commute to work or running errands. Which is where the average person spends most of their time.
Which is why the majority buys Accord or Camry. But if some of them are curious to know what is the difference between a 3 series (other than the badge) and an Accord, then they need to be told the difference.

They should also know that with each new generation, the 3 series caters more for the majority of the drivers too.
y789 commented:
January 22, 2013, 2:24 pm

I am amazed that we still debating the introduction of 320 will dilute BMW brand

comparing BMW to Honda or other cars is not the point. I owned many hondas and still like them.

the e90 325 when introduced in 2006 was around $30K, the f30 328 introduced last year around $36K. A $6k increase can't be attributed to inflation or increase in the average household income. The f30 328i moved upscale and there is a need to fill in the gap below the new 328 with a 320 to compete with the likes of MB, Audi, Lexus, etc..

So, 320i price (basic configuration) is more than e90 325 (basic) few years ago.
hans007 commented:
January 22, 2013, 5:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by y789 View Post
I am amazed that we still debating the introduction of 320 will dilute BMW brand

comparing BMW to Honda or other cars is not the point. I owned many hondas and still like them.

the e90 325 when introduced in 2006 was around $30K, the f30 328 introduced last year around $36K. A $6k increase can't be attributed to inflation or increase in the average household income. The f30 328i moved upscale and there is a need to fill in the gap below the new 328 with a 320 to compete with the likes of MB, Audi, Lexus, etc..

So, 320i price (basic configuration) is more than e90 325 (basic) few years ago.
the 328i is quite a bit more well equipped than a 2006 325i.

not to mention the 2007 328i was $2000 more than a 325i just for the model number change.

i mean a 325i came with 16" rims. 20% cost increase in 7 years. which if you compound 2.5% seems like its not that unreasonable especially considering the 3 became bigger, the 1 series came out (which moved the 3 slightly up market) etc.
mdsbuc commented:
January 22, 2013, 6:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by y789 View Post
I am amazed that we still debating the introduction of 320 will dilute BMW brand

comparing BMW to Honda or other cars is not the point. I owned many hondas and still like them.

the e90 325 when introduced in 2006 was around $30K, the f30 328 introduced last year around $36K. A $6k increase can't be attributed to inflation or increase in the average household income. The f30 328i moved upscale and there is a need to fill in the gap below the new 328 with a 320 to compete with the likes of MB, Audi, Lexus, etc..

So, 320i price (basic configuration) is more than e90 325 (basic) few years ago.
According to a CPI inflation calculator I found online, inflation may be more of a factor than you might expect.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc....006&year2=2012

$30,000 in 2006
Has the same buying power as:
$34,165.77 in 2012

Still, I agree with your point about filling the gap below the 328 and competing with MB, Audi, etc.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I think I read somewhere smaller brakes, but that may be in other countries. I also see the exhaust is different.
There is all the stuff that was added to the 328i going from 2012 to 2013. I don't think any of it is standard on the 320.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I also feel like good luck finding one of those A4 FWDs on a dealer lot. There is less money to be made on such a car. Sure, you can order one lol. Audi spends too much time drilling Quattro into your brain to get people excited about a FWD A4.
There are plenty of CVTs in Southern Cal. Some dealer stock more of them than quattros.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
So much for the 3 series being a status symbol, any schmuck can now drop the daily Starbucks latte and lease one of these instead.
My awareness of the 318 seems to betray my age (getting close to the median BMW owner). Those four bangers were quite popular.

The 318ti was a different story. I actually know two acquaintances who got them (with leather, sunroof, etc., not strippers). But a couple of girls commented how it looked like the back was chopped off and it was the car for people who could afford only "half a BMW." So cruel
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
Here in Atlanta BMWs are a dime a dozen. They aint exactly a status symbol.
In some markets they are status symbols. In others, they are bought merely to send the message that the owners are not riffraff.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
If you find the 320 to be so shocking, just wait until the 340 replaces the 335 in a couple months...

LOL!
My guess is that starting with 2014, we might have the following lineup: 320, 330, and 340.
dtc100 commented:
January 22, 2013, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
My awareness of the 318 seems to betray my age (getting close to the median BMW owner). Those four bangers were quite popular.

The 318ti was a different story. I actually know two acquaintances who got them (with leather, sunroof, etc., not strippers). But a couple of girls commented how it looked like the back was chopped off and it was the car for people who could afford only "half a BMW." So cruel
Maybe why BMW has not brought the US the hatchbacks. At least the 320i is still a "whole BMW."
hans007 commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
There are plenty of CVTs in Southern Cal. Some dealer stock more of them than quattros.

definitely way more.

i bought my audi at the start of 2010. was living in norcal at the time. wanted a sport package quatro with premium plus. looked in socal, looked in norcal. very very hard to find, finally found one by some stroke of luck.

i guess the socal people wanted the sports package rims and looks, and didnt want to pay for awd. and the norcal people would only pay for awd. and premium plus wasnt super common either.

it was damn near impossible to find a quattro at all in socal. let alone with sport pack. i mean just like the 320i vs 328i, well quattro is just $2500 for something that most audi owners won't even use just like $2500 for that extra 60hp.

i really wanted quattro, i mean its not an audi without quattro and it was my first german car had to do it right. cousin bought same car but no quattro same options. he absolutely doesnt care and knew nothing about cars or how it drove and was coming from a 10 year old accord. its a "nice car" he didnt even know how to use the computer to check the oil, to see if his flawed engine was burning any oil (it was just like mine was. good riddance to that piece of crap, never buying a VW product again)
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixotesque View Post
If you think ACCORD is cheap. Then so is the 320i. Both can be configured for the same price.
.
Yes, but obviously get very different things for your money. Btwy, the new 4-banger Accord supposedly does 0-60mph in the low to mid six seconds.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
The loaded Accord is going to have a lot more gadgets and creature comforts. Look it up. You will find that I am right.
Supposedly all trims now come with a backup camera and bluetooth.
Saintor commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Yes, but obviously get very different things for your money. Btwy, the new 4-banger Accord supposedly does 0-60mph in the low to mid six seconds.
Oh yeah, and getting much better fuel economy in the process (an Accord will cost 400$/yr less in fuel than a 320/328i)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....32904&id=33170

but yes - it is still an Accord. But the point is that the turbo is unnecessary for a 180HP engine in this class.
bmw_or_audi commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW220i View Post
My feeling is that if you have RWD, you should have 50/50 balance.
A number exotics or super-sports have a lot more weight on the back. One can argue 50/50 is for sissies. Under hard braking, 50/50 is far from ideal. Also, you get better traction in a RWD with more weight on the back.
mynycbimmer commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:43 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, the 3 series outsells both the Camry and Accord in North America. It already does in most of Europe where the 320i and even cheaper 3s have been on sale for years. The corporate strategy seems to be to move downmarket in a bid to shift more cars. Even the most expensive bimmers aren't that expensive any more, especially compared to the top of the line Audi's and MBs.
hans007 commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Yes, but obviously get very different things for your money. Btwy, the new 4-banger Accord supposedly does 0-60mph in the low to mid six seconds.

i am thinking the new 320i given it has a published 7.1 will be in the 6s as well. not to mention the mid 6s time for the accord is probably with the manual.

given most of the people looking at accords and 320is will probably get the 8AT or CVT, i'd assume the cvt is not as fast as the zf 8 speed to 60. will be pretty close though.
hans007 commented:
January 22, 2013, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, the 3 series outsells both the Camry and Accord in North America. It already does in most of Europe where the 320i and even cheaper 3s have been on sale for years. The corporate strategy seems to be to move downmarket in a bid to shift more cars. Even the most expensive bimmers aren't that expensive any more, especially compared to the top of the line Audi's and MBs.

definitely. the 320i base is 7 grand more than a EX i-4 accord CVT. this is probably the most common model accord. for 7 grand, you lose things like power seats, and the accords standard sunroof, but you get some other features and a slightly more powerful car, a year longer warranty and free maintenance.

if bmw can convince even some accord/altima/camry buyers to just get the 320i it will help their economies of scale. i think a lot of people would look at the 7k difference considering BMW resale value and the maintenance costs of brake pads etc , and there will be just enough people doing it to make it worth while for bmw.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 22, 2013, 10:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Yes, but obviously get very different things for your money. Btwy, the new 4-banger Accord supposedly does 0-60mph in the low to mid six seconds.
Don't think so.

The manual is 6.8, the CVT is in the 7's. The base Altima does 7.6. But man it sounds like a Hoover doing it.
floydarogers commented:
January 22, 2013, 10:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, the 3 series outsells both the Camry and Accord in North America.
Considering that 3-series sales in the US are around 100K/year, and Accord/Camry together are 500K or more, that's a pretty bold prediction.
mr_clueless commented:
January 22, 2013, 10:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Oh yeah, and getting much better fuel economy in the process (an Accord will cost 400$/yr less in fuel than a 320/328i)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....32904&id=33170

but yes - it is still an Accord. But the point is that the turbo is unnecessary for a 180HP engine in this class.
The Honda's get close to what is advertised, but the BMWs usually get more. At least that has been my personal experience. EPA says I should get 21 combined, but I have almost never gotten less than 24 and sometimes as high as 26 or 27. In my prior car, a Civic EX, EPA says I should get 28, and I used to pretty much get around 29 or 30.

Also the last time I considered an Accord good looking was 1995. Starting with the update in 1996 they messed up the rear, and thereafter they have been boats.
mynycbimmer commented:
January 23, 2013, 7:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Considering that 3-series sales in the US are around 100K/year, and Accord/Camry together are 500K or more, that's a pretty bold prediction.
They've done it in other markets, so it'll be interesting to see what happens here. The US does have an infatuation with Japanese cars which the euros don't (Camry/Accord aren't even on the radar over there) so maybe it'll be harder here, we'll see.
shabadoo25 commented:
January 23, 2013, 7:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
They've done it in other markets, so it'll be interesting to see what happens here. The US does have an infatuation with Japanese cars which the euros don't (Camry/Accord aren't even on the radar over there) so maybe it'll be harder here, we'll see.
It will never happen here.

There is too big a segment of the midsize market here that keeps a Camry for 12 years and when it starts to fall apart they go and get another Camry--and if they could, it would have cloth seats and roll up windows.

This segment is never going to even shop BMW. They think that all of them are $70k or more and for the rich or wastrels.
Technic commented:
January 23, 2013, 8:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
They've done it in other markets, so it'll be interesting to see what happens here. The US does have an infatuation with Japanese cars which the euros don't (Camry/Accord aren't even on the radar over there) so maybe it'll be harder here, we'll see.
In other markets they do not sell new Camrys and Accords for $17,000 in fire sales by the end of the year. Each year.

BMW does not even sell a new Mini for less than $20,000.
Michael Schott commented:
January 23, 2013, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
A number exotics or super-sports have a lot more weight on the back. One can argue 50/50 is for sissies. Under hard braking, 50/50 is far from ideal. Also, you get better traction in a RWD with more weight on the back.
Correct that a mid engine car does not have 50/50 weight distribution. It's not just the distribution that's important but where the weight is located and in a mid engine car it's between the wheels which is ideal. Look up 'polar moment of inertia'. Then again, a mid engine car is not a family car like a 3 series. BMW, with close to 50/50 weight distribution and the engine mounted as far back as possible in the chassis is about as good as it can get for a sedan.
shortckt commented:
January 23, 2013, 1:21 pm

They are bringing in the 320i to fight off the competition example Infiniti G25.
Technic commented:
January 23, 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortckt View Post
They are bringing in the 320i to fight off the competition example Infiniti G25.
The G25 has been long gone for awhile already...
hans007 commented:
January 23, 2013, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The G25 has been long gone for awhile already...
i wouldn't doubt they will bring a G25 equivalent of the Q50 out .

theG37 is actually not that inexpensive a car these days. one well equipped costs just as much as a 328i more or less and other than having more power, its not that compelling a car.

they could easily bring that G25 engine back .
Technic commented:
January 23, 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
i wouldn't doubt they will bring a G25 equivalent of the Q50 out .

theG37 is actually not that inexpensive a car these days. one well equipped costs just as much as a 328i more or less and other than having more power, its not that compelling a car.

they could easily bring that G25 engine back .
Infiniti is bringing a version of the MB turbo 4 in the Q50...
DrT commented:
January 23, 2013, 7:55 pm

Today I heard of someone optioning out a fully loaded Kia Optima for 33k.
donquixotesque commented:
January 23, 2013, 8:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0rd NIk0n View Post
Today I heard of someone optioning out a fully loaded Kia Optima for 33k.
Comes with gold grill?
mr_clueless commented:
January 23, 2013, 8:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0rd NIk0n View Post
Today I heard of someone optioning out a fully loaded Kia Optima for 33k.
Hurray. Inflation is finally here!
DrT commented:
January 23, 2013, 8:09 pm

Here is a link to a Kia dealer. As I couldn't believe it. Yhttp://www.gwinnettplacekia.com/inve...A-30478848.htm

One way to spend $34900: http://m.jalopnik.com/5883447/kia-op...to-spend-34900
hans007 commented:
January 23, 2013, 8:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0rd NIk0n View Post
Today I heard of someone optioning out a fully loaded Kia Optima for 33k.
that is pretty crazy, but i'd assume thats the 2.0 turbo one etc.

the optima honestly is a pretty nice car, a coworker just bought an EX. its huge inside since these midsize cards are a good foot longer than a 3 series and have FWD packaging. was also fairly quiet.

the base audio system supports bluetooth streaming etc, unlike uh BMW without bmw assist. standard leather seats too on the EX which is kind of impressive

but yeah mid level cars are not that cheap anymore. we are in an era where a civic EX costs $20k+

another coworker just ordered a fusion 1.6 SE. got it for invoice. he got automatic, leather luxury package, like a backup camera, start stop (he had to have this after seeing it in the 328i... haha) and a moonroof. was like $27k + tax. i actaully looked it up and you can build a $37k fusion titanium 2.0 AWD. inflation indeed.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 23, 2013, 9:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0rd NIk0n View Post
Today I heard of someone optioning out a fully loaded Kia Optima for 33k.
So?

Accord hits the same $33-34k fully loaded.

Optima is pretty class competitive. It's one of the better looking midsize sedans out there.
dtc100 commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:52 am

Yeah, a lot of Bimmer drivers don't understand, many people will gladly pay $30k+ for a loaded Toyota Camry or Honda CRX, than paying the same for an entry level luxury. To them a luxury badge is too much a show off, that in addition to the perceived reliability and resale value issues.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 24, 2013, 1:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yeah, a lot of Bimmer drivers don't understand, many people will gladly pay $30k+ for a loaded Toyota Camry or Honda CRX, than paying the same for an entry level luxury. To them a luxury badge is too much a show off, that in addition to the perceived reliability and resale value issues.
No, I think all BMW drivers understand that.

The way it works is you drive your Accord and you drive your Camry and eventually you make a bit more money and you feel a bit more comfortable and then you see your friends getting nicer cars and you stop by the BMW dealer and you realize you can afford a 3 Series so long as you give up all the goodies you got for free on the Toyota and Honda products and in a moment of clarity you say "okay" and then you take delivery and appreciate the refinement and you enjoy the driving experience and life is good until your lease is up and you realize that you really miss the goodies but you can't go back to those off-brands and so you suck it up and pinch a little from the college fund and get a fully loaded 3 Series because BMW has gotten you in its status trap from which there is no escape.

BJ
Chris90 commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, I think all BMW drivers understand that.

The way it works is you drive your Accord and you drive your Camry and eventually you make a bit more money and you feel a bit more comfortable and then you see your friends getting nicer cars and you stop by the BMW dealer and you realize you can afford a 3 Series so long as you give up all the goodies you got for free on the Toyota and Honda products and in a moment of clarity you say "okay" and then you take delivery and appreciate the refinement and you enjoy the driving experience and life is good until your lease is up and you realize that you really miss the goodies but you can't go back to those off-brands and so you suck it up and pinch a little from the college fund and get a fully loaded 3 Series because BMW has gotten you in its status trap from which there is no escape.

BJ
Once you go BMW it's definitely hard to go somewhere else.
shabadoo25 commented:
January 24, 2013, 7:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, I think all BMW drivers understand that.

The way it works is you drive your Accord and you drive your Camry and eventually you make a bit more money and you feel a bit more comfortable and then you see your friends getting nicer cars and you stop by the BMW dealer and you realize you can afford a 3 Series so long as you give up all the goodies you got for free on the Toyota and Honda products and in a moment of clarity you say "okay" and then you take delivery and appreciate the refinement and you enjoy the driving experience and life is good until your lease is up and you realize that you really miss the goodies but you can't go back to those off-brands and so you suck it up and pinch a little from the college fund and get a fully loaded 3 Series because BMW has gotten you in its status trap from which there is no escape.

BJ
+1

Except I would call it a "nothing I have ever driven feels like this" trap moreso than status.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 8:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, the 3 series outsells both the Camry and Accord in North America. It already does in most of Europe where the 320i and even cheaper 3s have been on sale for years. The corporate strategy seems to be to move downmarket in a bid to shift more cars. Even the most expensive bimmers aren't that expensive any more, especially compared to the top of the line Audi's and MBs.
This analysis is all wrong.

We just went through this on this thread.

The 320 is not really the same price as an Accord or a Camry.

A fully loaded Accord and an absolute stripped down 320 are the same price. But here is why that still doesn't matter, and where you're off target.

1) A fully loaded Accord is out of reach for most people at $33k, but a base price Accord is only $21k. Most Accord buyers opt for the much cheaper versions. Just look around...
2) if you load up a 320 with all the same options and features as a fully loaded Accord, the 320 is about $10k more. Some will buy a stripped down 320, this is true, but most people will not.
3) the 320 competes with the Acura TSX, Acura ILX and the Nissan Maxima, not with the Accord.

There is no possibility, none, absolutely zero possibility of a car with a base price of $33,000 being a top 5 seller in this country.

In order for BMW to top the Accord or Camry, they would have to be at the same entry level price point, which is at about $21,000.

Do you honestly think BMW is going to sell car with a $20,000 entry level price point? Let's not go off the deep edge here. There is a simple reason why a Nissan Maxima doesn't outsell an Accord or Camry. It's a much better car, but it's also more money and out of reach for most consumers.
boltjaM3s commented:
January 24, 2013, 8:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

Once you go BMW it's definitely hard to go somewhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
+1

Except I would call it a "nothing I have ever driven feels like this" trap moreso than status.
Yup.

Some are into the status, some are into the performance. For me, honestly, it's about the design. I just think that BMW makes the best looking cars in this segment. So even if they screwed up the driving dynamics or lowered the prices to the point of losing all status I'd still buy them as I just think they look so much better than all the other sport sedans out there.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
January 24, 2013, 8:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
This analysis is all wrong.

We just went through this on this thread.

The 320 is not really the same price as an Accord or a Camry.

A fully loaded Accord and an absolute stripped down 320 are the same price. But here is why that still doesn't matter, and where you're off target.

1) A fully loaded Accord is out of reach for most people at $33k, but a base price Accord is only $21k. Most Accord buyers opt for the much cheaper versions. Just look around...
2) if you load up a 320 with all the same options and features as a fully loaded Accord, the 320 is about $10k more. Some will buy a stripped down 320, this is true, but most people will not.
3) the 320 competes with the Acura TSX, Acura ILX and the Nissan Maxima, not with the Accord.

There is no possibility, none, absolutely zero possibility of a car with a base price of $33,000 being a top 5 seller in this country.

In order for BMW to top the Accord or Camry, they would have to be at the same entry level price point, which is at about $21,000.

Do you honestly think BMW is going to sell car with a $20,000 entry level price point? Let's not go off the deep edge here. There is a simple reason why a Nissan Maxima doesn't outsell an Accord or Camry. It's a much better car, but it's also more money and out of reach for most consumers.
Precisely.

It still amazes me how, week after week, certain BMW drivers just don't get what life is like in the real world. I keep wondering to myself if I'm raising my kids right. They didn't live a life where they were exposed to the 98%, besides hearing me tell stories of how the "other half lives" perhaps they too think that "anyone can afford a $35,000 car" because everyone they interact with simply can.

BJ
dtc100 commented:
January 24, 2013, 11:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Once you go BMW it's definitely hard to go somewhere else.
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
UnderSteer commented:
January 24, 2013, 11:37 am

According to Autoguide.com the average price paid for a new car in the US is $30,748.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-of-30748.html
Michael Schott commented:
January 24, 2013, 11:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
It's hard to quantify satisfaction. Yes, in general Honda's are reliable and my wife currently owns an Insight. I'll let you know the dealer experience after I see them tonight about a recurring weatherstripping issue. I also had an Accord in the late 1990's that ate an AT at 55,000 miles costing me $2500.00. My 2 BMW's have been dead reliable but they have been leases so I haven't piled up the miles. Also, the dealer experience for me has been superb and is a reason to continue buying the brand.
captainaudio commented:
January 24, 2013, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
For a large portion of the driving public a loaded Accord is a good choice, It is not a bad driving car, is comfortable, reliable. luxurious and well equipped with convenience features. It is very good at getting people from one place to another safely, reliably and comfortably which is the primary reason that most people purchase automobiles.

CA
mr_clueless commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
True, and we probably won't find many of those on bimmerfest because they will have moved to other forums.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's hard to quantify satisfaction. Yes, in general Honda's are reliable and my wife currently owns an Insight. I'll let you know the dealer experience after I see them tonight about a recurring weatherstripping issue. I also had an Accord in the late 1990's that ate an AT at 55,000 miles costing me $2500.00. My 2 BMW's have been dead reliable but they have been leases so I haven't piled up the miles. Also, the dealer experience for me has been superb and is a reason to continue buying the brand.
My sister buys nothing but Hondas...so reliable. Yet her Accord killed its auto trans early and her Odyssey had door and trans problems too. Her Sienna has been less than stellar so she insists no more cars other than Hondas. Sigh.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
For a large portion of the driving public a loaded Accord is a good choice, It is not a bad driving car, is comfortable, reliable. luxurious and well equipped with convenience features. It is very good at getting people from one place to another safely, reliably and comfortably which is the primary reason that most people purchase automobiles.

CA
Absolutely, a loaded Honda Accord is a great choice. Also, getting a loaded Accord with a Nav, a rear view camera and a lot of other nice features will be far more appealing to a lot of consumers than buying a stripped down 320. By the time people load up the 320 with equivalent features, you're easily hitting the $40,000 mark.
pony_trekker commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
and some of these people have their Toyota 4runners die, cost them a fortune and come back.
volnedan commented:
January 24, 2013, 12:31 pm

Hello all, I am a current Infiniti G37 6MT owner that has been caught by the BMW bug. After attending the Detroit auto show earlier this week, I can see myself either getting into a 320 with sport package or a base version of the 328. Unfortunately for Infiniti, the absence of a manual transmission for the 2014 Q50 is a deal breaker for me. I've owned 5 G35/G37s over the past 10 years, all with manual transmission.

If I can get a 320i 6MT with sport + lighting package for a lease around $350/mo and $1200 total due at signing, then I'm all in. I am 31, married with one child and am the target demographic for this vehicle. Since my lease is ending in December of this year, I have already started my search. Like most have already stated on this thread, the 180hp seems ultra conservative, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno numbers mirror that of an A4 2.0T (200hp, 235ft-lb). This is more than plenty for my tastes. Plus I'm sure there will be a tune available in the near future to bump engine output to near 328 power.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by volnedan View Post
Hello all, I am a current Infiniti G37 6MT owner that has been caught by the BMW bug. After attending the Detroit auto show earlier this week, I can see myself either getting into a 320 with sport package or a base version of the 328. Unfortunately for Infiniti, the absence of a manual transmission for the 2014 Q50 is a deal breaker for me. I've owned 5 G35/G37s over the past 10 years, all with manual transmission.

If I can get a 320i 6MT with sport + lighting package for a lease around $350/mo and $1200 total due at signing, then I'm all in. I am 31, married with one child and am the target demographic for this vehicle. Since my lease is ending in December of this year, I have already started my search. Like most have already stated on this thread, the 180hp seems ultra conservative, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno numbers mirror that of an A4 2.0T (200hp, 235ft-lb). This is more than plenty for my tastes. Plus I'm sure there will be a tune available in the near future to bump engine output to near 328 power.
Go for it!

The 320 with the sport package and lighting package sounds great. The sport package is especially a bargain. In addition to the sport suspension and bigger wheels, you get the M Steering wheel, and you don't even get the M Steering Wheel on a Sport Line 335. I'd also add the Nav and rear view camera too, but that's me...
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 1:30 pm

1. This has been a very interesting thread to read since I have been on the verge of ordering a 328i and now have to consider this new 320 vehicle. (These other car brands aren't really on my radar anymore since few have both RWD + MT; I've had a MT accord for many years but am tired of the FWD.)

2. The 328 is going to be a tough sell to the wife when she sees commercials for these 320s; even worse if they release a 320d that gets 40 MPG. Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $6000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right? On top of that, I get to have the dakota leatherette in the sport package without being stuck with the black+red stitching? Going to be very, very hard to stick to the 328 unless I drive the 320 and it still feels like I'm in my Accord.

3. I fully understand why BMW would release this car. What I do not understand is why they have such peculiar interior color/finish combinations to particular lines. And the options on the 320 only confirm to me that it appears to be almost random.
mr_clueless commented:
January 24, 2013, 1:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $4000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right?
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.

PS: You mention 328 would be hard sell after the 320...why is that? Is it just cost or something else? You mention 320d, but my guess it that will be closer to the 328 in price. In terms of MPG, the 320 is no better than the 328.
Michael Schott commented:
January 24, 2013, 1:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.
I find it very odd that leather is not part of the 320 premium package yet the package costs slightly more than on the 328. I guess it helps that you gain the power memory seats and dimming mirrors that are std on the 328. Maybe this is an error on the configurator? Adding the additional $1450.00 makes the 320 not so much of a bargain considering the 60 hp loss and the loss of content. A 320 with ZPP and leather narrows the price gap with a 328 with ZPP by that $1450.00.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
1. This has been a very interesting thread to read since I have been on the verge of ordering a 328i and now have to consider this new 320 vehicle. (These other car brands aren't really on my radar anymore since few have both RWD + MT; I've had a MT accord for many years but am tired of the FWD.)

2. The 328 is going to be a tough sell to the wife when she sees commercials for these 320s; even worse if they release a 320d that gets 40 MPG. Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $6000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right? On top of that, I get to have the dakota leatherette in the sport package without being stuck with the black+red stitching? Going to be very, very hard to stick to the 328 unless I drive the 320 and it still feels like I'm in my Accord.

3. I fully understand why BMW would release this car. What I do not understand is why they have such peculiar interior color/finish combinations to particular lines. And the options on the 320 only confirm to me that it appears to be almost random.
Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
Highest Regards
shabadoo25 commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:35 pm

I would say that unless you are at that threshold level where the choice is between some other cheaper brand or splurging slightly for a BMW, go with the 328i. It is the truly revolutionary car in the current F30 lineup while the others are just evolutionary.
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
Highest Regards
What do you think the take rate for DHP really is? Certainly <10%.

BMW has already been on record as saying they want the 320i to be a simplified, "value conscious" car to order and buy, geared towards a younger market. The more features you can potentially add and order, the further you get away from this goal.

The enthusiasts with more income can chase the 328i/335i.
dtc100 commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
Highest Regards
What is the difference in prices between the base 328 and base 320 in UK? Does the UK 320 have the Technology package?
Vector Pilot commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
What is the difference in prices between the base 328 and base 320 in UK? Does the UK 320 have the Technology package?
Not sure, you'll have to go the UK website for the answer. As for 320 including DHP, that would be within the context of what BMW intends, attract young enthusiasts. Listen to what BMW has to say about the introduction of the 320 to the USA.


http://www.bimmerfile.com/2013/01/18...-won-kyu-kang/

Highest Regards
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.
Thank you for summarizing some additional differences. I won't get the premium or leather regardless of which 32* I get. Are you saying that you get a short throw shifter on the 328 but not the 320?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
PS: You mention 328 would be hard sell after the 320...why is that? Is it just cost or something else? You mention 320d, but my guess it that will be closer to the 328 in price. In terms of MPG, the 320 is no better than the 328.
Because of the price. (My getting a car happens once every ten years and it requires a long and delicate negotiation. And not with the dealer.) If I lease and amortize then the monthly cost difference isn't that much. But the "sticker shock" for my wife is significant: the way I price out what I had planned to get as a 328 ends up over $40k (before accounting for ED invoice but adding in tax); the 320 would be closer to $35k.

I mentioned the 320d because I can offset the price increase by pointing out the MPG increase. But I'd be worried they will only release a 320d as an AT and that's a deal killer for me.
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Not sure, you'll have to go the UK website for the answer. As for 320 including DHP, that would be within the context of what BMW intends, attract young enthusiasts. Listen to what BMW has to say about the introduction of the 320 to the USA.


http://www.bimmerfile.com/2013/01/18...-won-kyu-kang/

Highest Regards
Nowhere in that conversation do they specifically mention "enthusiasts". You are still misinterpreting the market for this car. Young, value-conscious and trim (as related to configuration options).. YES. Performance-minded or for the enthusiast? NO. That is what the 328i/335i is for.

320i could be the perfect car for a 70 year old fellow that enjoys cars, but doesn't need every last bit of performance... or even the 35 year old mom who wants something more fun to drive and styled better than the Camry.
mr_clueless commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
Thank you for summarizing some additional differences. I won't get the premium or leather regardless of which 32* I get. Are you saying that you get a short throw shifter on the 328 but not the 320?
Based on what I can see, you get it with the 320, but not with the 328, unless you go for M-sport with the 328.
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
What do you think the take rate for DHP really is? Certainly <10%.

BMW has already been on record as saying they want the 320i to be a simplified, "value conscious" car to order and buy, geared towards a younger market. The more features you can potentially add and order, the further you get away from this goal.

The enthusiasts with more income can chase the 328i/335i.
I read numerous people on this forum talking about how great and essential the DHP was. I asked two different dealers about it in person, hoping to drive the same car one--with and one without--and both said "it's a waste of money unless you track your car. You can always turn it down to "comfort" if you want a smoother ride." Neither had a single car in stock with it. And these are big SoCal dealers. So perhaps they don't know what they are talking about.

But I also suspect that if they are even slightly right then that would account for why you can't get it in a 320 and why the proportion of people discussing it favorably would be much higher on a forum about BMWs than the average person walking into a dealership.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post

Because of the price. (My getting a car happens once every ten years and it requires a long and delicate negotiation. And not with the dealer.) If I lease and amortize then the monthly cost difference isn't that much. But the "sticker shock" for my wife is significant: the way I price out what I had planned to get as a 328 ends up over $40k (before accounting for ED invoice but adding in tax); the 320 would be closer to $35k.

I mentioned the 320d because I can offset the price increase by pointing out the MPG increase. But I'd be worried they will only release a 320d as an AT and that's a deal killer for me.
Ever try rationalizing a 16 speaker, 600 watt sound system with your wife??? What about the Dynamic Handling package, a sport transmission with paddle shifters, and a 300 HP twin power turbo engine???

Exactly. That's why I didn't even bother. I just told her what car I'm getting, how much I'm spending, and when I'm getting it.
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Based on what I can see, you get it with the 320, but not with the 328, unless you go for M-sport with the 328.
That's bizarre. If I get the 320 it will definitely have the sport package because I dislike the basic seats and want the sport ones; but I can't see why you'd get the short throw standard.

I assume they pay people money to market research these things and they are not random, but sometimes I wonder....
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Ever try rationalizing a 16 speaker, 600 watt sound system with your wife??? What about the Dynamic Handling package, a sport transmission with paddle shifters, and a 300 HP twin power turbo engine???

Exactly. That's why I didn't even bother. I just told her what car I'm getting, how much I'm spending, and when I'm getting it.
LOL

Well, there is a balance to be struck. I think if I keep the price "low enough" she won't care what the actual features are. The trick is massaging "low enough" by promises of driving her to Venice, pointing out the car is less expensive than a new version of hers (highlander hybrid), and that I did everything possible to get a nice car but keep the cost as low as possible.

Thanks for all the thoughts.
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
I read numerous people on this forum talking about how great and essential the DHP was. I asked two different dealers about it in person, hoping to drive the same car one--with and one without--and both said "it's a waste of money unless you track your car. You can always turn it down to "comfort" if you want a smoother ride." Neither had a single car in stock with it. And these are big SoCal dealers. So perhaps they don't know what they are talking about.

But I also suspect that if they are even slightly right then that would account for why you can't get it in a 320 and why the proportion of people discussing it favorably would be much higher on a forum about BMWs than the average person walking into a dealership.
Just to be clear, I LOVE the DHP package. I ordered it on my car, and wouldn't order a BMW without it. But, I'm coming from a $75K M3. I'm not looking for a $35K 320i and expecting to be able to get it to perform in a similar manner.

As the MSRP gets lower (i.e. 320i), these extra features like DHP become a larger percentage of the purchase price, thereby dissuading both customers and dealers from adding it on. Everyone knows and can understand the value of Navigation or even comfort access. But adjustable suspension and steering to a buyer coming from a 3-year lease on a Jetta, Camry or Acura? C'mon. A base 320i is going to handle way stiffer than any other car in its class.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
I read numerous people on this forum talking about how great and essential the DHP was. I asked two different dealers about it in person, hoping to drive the same car one--with and one without--and both said "it's a waste of money unless you track your car. You can always turn it down to "comfort" if you want a smoother ride." Neither had a single car in stock with it. And these are big SoCal dealers. So perhaps they don't know what they are talking about.

But I also suspect that if they are even slightly right then that would account for why you can't get it in a 320 and why the proportion of people discussing it favorably would be much higher on a forum about BMWs than the average person walking into a dealership.
My CA basically said the same thing. He said that out of everything I'm getting, DHP is by far the most expendable (at least as far as he was concerned).

But I want my cake and eat it too. I want the option of having both the sport suspension and a softer, more comfortable suspension. DHP is the only option for that.

By the way, I suppose DHP is good for the track, but it also gives people the option of softening the ride, so I doubt your dealer knows what he is talking about.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Just to be clear, I LOVE the DHP package. I ordered it on my car, and wouldn't order a BMW without it. But, I'm coming from a $75K M3. I'm not looking for a $35K 320i and expecting to be able to get it to perform in a similar manner.

As the MSRP gets lower (i.e. 320i), these extra features like DHP become a larger percentage of the purchase price, thereby dissuading both customers and dealers from adding it on. Everyone knows and can understand the value of Navigation or even comfort access. But adjustable suspension and steering to a buyer coming from a 3-year lease on a Jetta, Camry or Acura? C'mon. A base 320i is going to handle way stiffer than any other car in its class.
Yes, 100% agree.

Especially the part about the base 320 handling way stiffer than a Camry, Acura, etc..

I'm getting a 335 and DHP, but honestly, for the 320 price range, DHP is over the edge...

If you start adding DHP, HK, etc., then why even bother putting out the 320 in the first place...Makes no sense.

I actually think they should consider the exact opposite approach. Instead of adding things like DHP, they should consider cloth seats and such, and go a little more down range...
mr_clueless commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
That's bizarre. If I get the 320 it will definitely have the sport package because I dislike the basic seats and want the sport ones; but I can't see why you'd get the short throw standard.

I assume they pay people money to market research these things and they are not random, but sometimes I wonder....
I hope I'm not giving misinformation because I'm really only going by the pictures. I haven't seen it in writing anywhere. (But I don't see it in writing anywhere for the 328i either.)

So best if you can get it confirmed from a dealer.
dtc100 commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Ever try rationalizing a 16 speaker, 600 watt sound system with your wife??? What about the Dynamic Handling package, a sport transmission with paddle shifters, and a 300 HP twin power turbo engine???

Exactly. That's why I didn't even bother. I just told her what car I'm getting, how much I'm spending, and when I'm getting it.
One of my buddies does not even tell his wife, he just drives a new car home and the wife will know when she sees it
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yes, 100% agree.

Especially the part about the base 320 handling way stiffer than a Camry, Acura, etc..

I'm getting a 335 and DHP, but honestly, for the 320 price range, DHP is over the edge...

If you start adding DHP, HK, etc., then why even bother putting out the 320 in the first place...Makes no sense.

I actually think they should consider the exact opposite approach. Instead of adding things like DHP, they should consider cloth seats and such, and go a little more down range...
I think they're near the bottom, as it is. Cloth seats are practically unheard of on $30K+ cars in the US. More importantly, the BMW leatherette looks and feels close enough like leather that most can't tell the difference. And when someone gets in your new 320i for the first time, they'll just assume it's leather and enjoy it. If it was cloth, the most common reaction (here in the US) would be something like "whoa, brand new Beemer and they give you cloth seats like in a Malibu?"
Vector Pilot commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Nowhere in that conversation do they specifically mention "enthusiasts". You are still misinterpreting the market for this car. Young, value-conscious and trim (as related to configuration options).. YES. Performance-minded or for the enthusiast? NO. That is what the 328i/335i is for.

320i could be the perfect car for a 70 year old fellow that enjoys cars, but doesn't need every last bit of performance... or even the 35 year old mom who wants something more fun to drive and styled better than the Camry.
That's beauty of it it can appeal to what you're describing as well as for folks like me, looking for a barebones-sport-sedan at a reasonable price. Look, we can debate the virtue of the 320 and it's intended market, but at the end of day it will have mass appeal within the segment described, consumers looking for value and reasonable performance at an attractive price. Those wanting more and able to pay more will walk pass and look at the 328 if not the 335.
Highest Regards
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
That's beauty of it it can appeal to what you're describing as well as for folks like me, looking for a barebones-sport-sedan at a reasonable price. Look, we can debate the virtue of the 320 and it's intended market, but at the end of day it will have mass appeal within the segment described, consumers looking for value and reasonable performance at an attractive price. Those wanting more and able to pay more will walk pass and look at the 328 if not the 335.
Highest Regards
I can appreciate what you're looking for in a car. Heck, the best scenario would be to wait 1-2 years for a 320i with the B38 3-cylinder (lighter than N20), and throw $2000 worth of coilovers and engine tune on there. Now you're <$40K for a fast, tossable sedan that looks great and will get 30mpg all day long.
Vector Pilot commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I can appreciate what you're looking for in a car. Heck, the best scenario would be to wait 1-2 years for a 320i with the B38 3-cylinder (lighter than N20), and throw $2000 worth of coilovers and engine tune on there. Now you're <$40K for a fast, tossable sedan that looks great and will get 30mpg all day long.
Thanks the advice but our needs are immediate, like this year. We're currently driving a E92/335 and Z435i and we need a car that can haul stuff as well as more than one passenger plus use it as daily commuter. There's a lot options out there but we prefer driving BMW's.
Highest Regards
SamS commented:
January 24, 2013, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Thanks the advice but our needs are immediate, like this year. We're currently driving a E92/335 and Z435i and we need a car that can haul stuff as well as more than one passenger plus use it as daily commuter. There's a lot options out there but we prefer driving BMW's.
Highest Regards
I came from an E92 M3... the coupes just aren't the best daily drivers. I think you'll like whatever F30 you end up with. I could use a tad more rear seat room (car seats), but otherwise my ActiveHybrid 3 seems great for both road trips, commuting and hauling the kids.
krash commented:
January 24, 2013, 4:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
One of my buddies does not even tell his wife, he just drives a new car home and the wife will know when she sees it
Yes, actually, I'm sort of fortunate. My wife gives me plenty of room when it comes to my cars. Plus, a loaded 335 is well within her budget parameters anyway. If I started looking at an M5 or M6, then that would be an issue.

But if I really had to cut back, I'd be perfectly ok with a 328 Luxury line minus DHP and the sport transmission. That could have saved me about $4500 (or more) right there, and I would have been ok with that...
408Racer commented:
January 24, 2013, 5:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
Neither had a single car in stock with it. And these are big SoCal dealers. So perhaps they don't know what they are talking about.
Chicken or the egg...they'll talk DHP down since they don't have a car on the lot with it. The same way some NorCal dealers tried to tell me that having 3 pedals is waste unless I went to the track every weekend, .
jjcruiser commented:
January 24, 2013, 5:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Chicken or the egg...they'll talk DHP down since they don't have a car on the lot with it. The same way some NorCal dealers tried to tell me that having 3 pedals is waste unless I went to the track every weekend, .
Good point (although they already knew I was going to order something and what they had on the lot was irrelevant to that).

But I agree overall. I can't tell you how many dealers in one place or another (not just BMW) have tried to tell me that having an automatic where you control the gear shifting is the "same thing as a manual transmission."
Nordique commented:
January 25, 2013, 8:05 pm

One point not yet mentioned here is that, world-wide, the 320i is the best selling BMW 3-series. It's about time this car was offered here in the U.S. When I bought my 2003 325i, I didn't feel the need to pay for the 330i. The 320i specs are similar to my old 325i, a sport package is also offered, and there is a similar price savings.
DrT commented:
January 27, 2013, 6:45 am

[QUOTE=jjcruiser; I can't tell you how many dealers in one place or another (not just BMW) have tried to tell me that having an automatic where you control the gear shifting is the "same thing as a manual transmission."[/QUOTE]

Not surprised.
DrT commented:
January 27, 2013, 6:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post