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BMW Hybrid ---- WHY?

31K views 91 replies 38 participants last post by  samualcc 
#1 · (Edited)
2013 BMW 335i (base): $44,045 23mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3555lb, HP 330
2013 BMW 335i Hybrid (base): $50,545, 25mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3860 lb, HP 335

So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?
 
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#2 ·
BMW's hybrid is not that of Toyota's. The purpose of Toyota's hybrid is to save gas at the sacrifice of performance. BMW's hybrid is to improve the performance while still maintain the gas mileage.
Active 3 has better 0-60 than 335.
Totally two different concepts and approaches.
Whether this performance improvement justify the cost is everyone's take.
 
#66 ·
BMW's hybrid is not that of Toyota's. The purpose of Toyota's hybrid is to save gas at the sacrifice of performance. BMW's hybrid is to improve the performance while still maintain the gas mileage.
Active 3 has better 0-60 than 335.
Totally two different concepts and approaches.
Whether this performance improvement justify the cost is everyone's take.
>COUGH<

Not mine. I handle better too.
 
#3 ·
Exactly. A $6,500 premium ensures that you would never get your money's worth out of it.

At 26 average MPG and a premium gas cost of $4.07/gallon (as of today), you would have to fill the tank up 135 times to get to 50,000 miles, for a lifetime gas cost of $7,821.

In order for you to come out even between the two options (hybrid vs. gas) on the lifetime [cost of gas + cost of car], the hybrid would have to average 150 miles per gallon. That would result in a lifetime gas cost of $1,332, which roughly makes up the $6,500 price premium on the car.

As it stands, since the BMW ActiveHybrid 3 averages only 28 MPG, you still need to buy 125 tanksful of gas to get to 50,000 for a lifetime gas cost of $7,242, an overall savings of less than $600.

Yeah--it's definitely a bad deal.
 
#4 ·
Almost same figures in the 5-land -- 20/30 for 535i vs 23/30 for AH5. Then you get smaller trunk and cannot option adaptive cruise with AH5. The $3,500 eco credit softens the price shock quite a bit though. I think it's more about making a green statement rather than saving fuel.

They are not selling in droves if my nearest dealer's inventory is an indication:

* 24 528i, 9 535i, 6 550i, 3 535i GT, and only ONE AH5
* 35 328i, 6 335i, and only ONE AH3.

Well, at least you'd get some exclusivity with AH3/AH5 :D
 
#5 ·
The hybrid 3 can easily get better mpg's than the epa numbers suggest. Just as both the 335 and 328 can and do.

You guys are also forgetting about the $3500 eco credit.

It's quite possible to get almost $10K off of MSRP on a hybrid 3. This puts the true price of the hybrid at about $1500 or so more than a similarly equipped 335. Many would say that addnl cost is worth the added grunt, newer idrive, and better fuel economy compared to the 335.
 
#6 ·
2013 BMW 335i (base): $44,045 23mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3555lb, HP 330
2013 BMW 335i Hybrid (base): $50,545, 25mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3860 lb, HP 335

So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 gallons per mile (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?
I'm with you, been asking myself the same question:dunno:
 
#7 ·
Another perspective:
Returning a base 328i and leasing a fully loaded AH3. With incentives, etc. the lease is about $80/month more than paying now and about $40/month more than a 335i.
Currently I pay $60/week=$240/month for gas, getting average of 20mph (a lot of city driving, sitting at stops-my average speed over many months is 22mph).
If the AH3 gets 30mpg I will pay $160/month for gas, saving $80/month.
So for the same total cost of ownership per month, I get a much better car that current and would save $40/month over a new 335i.
Why would I not do this?
 
#9 · (Edited)
Lots of bad math in this thread.

First, there is an ongoing BMW Eco-credit of $3500 on the AH3. That brings the delta between the AH3 and a 335i to $3000 even. Second, you must consider the fact that the 335i has very limited allocations (especially Munich-builds), and as such are not typically discounted very much. In my experience, dealers are much more willing to negotiate on the AH3, and typically have allocations ready to go. With minimal negotiating skills, you should be able to bring that $3000 delta to $1500.

So... for $1500 what do you get?

  • New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav
  • Better mpg, on par with the 328i. I get 27mpg in the city, about 33 on the hwy
  • MUCH improved A.S.S. It is unnoticeable, vs. the typically obvious restart on the 335i, and especially the 328i
  • Free options - on my AH3, I got the following as $0 charge options when I ordered in Nov 2012:
    • Heated Steering Wheel
    • Speed Limit Info 8TH
    • Lane Departure Warning
    • Frontal Collision Warning
    • **** Now it appears only 8TH is free, check with your dealer****
  • More power/torque than 335i

What are the downsides? Not sure I've found any, yet. BTW, I got exactly $10K off the sticker price of my AH3. Great car, all around.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?
I feel very much in my right mind :) The $1500 premium means hardly anything in the grand scheme of things. And I love love love the new Nav! By my "butt dyno", the AH3 feels faster than the 335i. My previous car was a 2012 E92. The AH3 feels just as fast as the M3. It doesn't have the grip like an M3, but it can put down the power, for sure. The electric motor delivers terrific torque.
 
#13 ·
#19 ·
Lots of bad math in this thread.

First, there is an ongoing BMW Eco-credit of $3500 on the AH3. That brings the delta between the AH3 and a 335i to $3000 even. Second, you must consider the fact that the 335i has very limited allocations (especially Munich-builds), and as such are not typically discounted very much. In my experience, dealers are much more willing to negotiate on the AH3, and typically have allocations ready to go. With minimal negotiating skills, you should be able to bring that $3000 delta to $1500.

So... for $1500 what do you get?

  • New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav
  • Better mpg, on par with the 328i. I get 27mpg in the city, about 33 on the hwy
  • MUCH improved A.S.S. It is unnoticeable, vs. the typically obvious restart on the 335i, and especially the 328i
  • Free options - on my AH3, I got the following as $0 charge options when I ordered in Nov 2012:
    • Heated Steering Wheel
    • Speed Limit Info 8TH
    • Lane Departure Warning
    • Frontal Collision Warning
    • **** Now it appears only 8TH is free, check with your dealer****
  • More power/torque than 335i

What are the downsides? Not sure I've found any, yet. BTW, I got exactly $10K off the sticker price of my AH3. Great car, all around.

I feel very much in my right mind :) The $1500 premium means hardly anything in the grand scheme of things. And I love love love the new Nav! By my "butt dyno", the AH3 feels faster than the 335i. My previous car was a 2012 E92. The AH3 feels just as fast as the M3. It doesn't have the grip like an M3, but it can put down the power, for sure. The electric motor delivers terrific torque.
These sound like great reasons to go with the AH3, I will definitely look at it in 2 years when my lease is up. One question: is the handling affected much by the extra weight?
 
#22 ·
The extra weight is directly behind the rear axle, and low to the ground. It feels like driving a regular 335i, with a couple pieces of luggage in the trunk, i.e. only a bit noticeable if you are really paying attention. If there is any benefit, it's that the AH3 now has a true 50/50 weight distribution, compared to 52/48 I think for the 335i.
Thanks Sams, is the trunk smaller due to the batteries and do you still have folding seats?
 
#10 ·
I just picked up my first BMW, an AH3 with Premium, Tech and Park Distance for $48.5K. The price included the $3500 eco credit and $1000 BMW finance rebate. A similarly equipped 335i after negotiation would cost around $48K. Also, with the current 1.9% financing as opposed to 3.19% for the 335i you end up paying lesser for the AH3 over the lifetime of the load. I did not go with the lease option as I drive 30 miles one way to work. It has been less than 24 hours and I am very happy and excited with the AH3.
 
#11 ·
Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?
Cuz racecar! :bigpimp:

Oh, wrong thread, sorry ....

Cuz HYBRID! :bigpimp:
 
#17 ·
Hybrids suck and are stupid. Diesels are the way to go to achieve the performance and fuel savings gain. Yeah let's add 300-400 pounds to a vehicle. That's fun.

Everybody has to have a stupid hybrid in the lineup.

Buy an egg shaped hybrid for maximum fuel efficiency if you don't care about styling or performance. That makes sense. You want max fuel economy go get one.

But buying a luxury car with a Hybrid makes no sense. You get marginal power bumps and marginal fuel savings. You can never justify the price difference on gas savings alone, unless you drive 100K miles a year, or the car is loaded with giveaway money, like this AH3.

No car company would do this if they didn't have to do it. It's nearly as dopey as the Efficient Dynamics crap and ASS (great acronym BTW), and eco pro, and yuck.

BMW is right on the border of annoying with this gas savings nonsense.
 
#28 ·
Hybrids have along way to go, but with no foreseeable (affordable) battery technology that will allow 300 miles per trip... they seem to be the short term answer.

I drove a Hybrid3 as a loaner for a couple days recently and the electric torque was cool and overall it was fun to drive... would I buy one yet? Only if it was the only 3 available.
 
#29 ·
OK, so this thread has me pretty convinced on getting an AH3. I currently have on order a loaded 335i Sport, euro delivery, production date mid-march (for an April 2 delivery). I am going to sign purchase order this Saturday and can still make changes. One thing I didn't have was the DHP. I am now convinced that I should add that. Anyhow, back to AH....I was really bummed about not being able to get the new NBT Nav. It was really bothering me. That problem would be solved with AH. Extra HP and torque without sacrificing gas milage is a nice plus. Aluminum accents around the windows (like my old 330i had) also a plus. To be honest, the couple of extra MPG city driving is not a big deal to me, but I will take it. My dealer is looking into whether or not the AH currently comes with any $0 cost extra options as one poster suggested above. Even if there are no freebie options, the cost of the loaded AH is only about $500 more than the loaded 335i IF you factor in the cost savings over the life of a 1.9% loan (compared to 3.19%). Plus, I really think the "hybrid" will be a big selling point (to some future owner) when I go to sell, probably get more than $500 over what a 335i would bring. I have to think about it, but I am pretty convinced this is a no-brainer.
 
#31 ·
FYI - Pentagon FCU www.penfed.org currently is offering 1.49% for up to 60 months. Even if you need to use BMWFS financing to get certain incentives you could refinance with PenFed at the 1.49%. Anyone can join PenFed.
 
#33 · (Edited)
we call it "jump on the band wagon"

BM make Hybrid cos everyone makes hybrid

some research says no real advantage for hybrid as the cost of procuding batteries and disposing them is more than fuel saving in CO2 term
 
#36 · (Edited)
Very interesting discussion here. In the hybrid community the BMW approach actually is consider as "Power Hybrid". In short, "same fuel, more power". Instant tq delivery doesn't really reflect on paper, it need to be driven to experience the differences.

Some of up coming super cars (BMW i8, Porsche 918, Acura NSX, Lexus LF-C, ect) will be base on similar hybrid platform, so clearly this is the proper direction and BMW is little ahead of everyone by offering "Power Hybrid" in the whole lineup.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Well, to be really silly, Honda did try that with one of the older Accords, a few years back. Tack a electric motor to a Honda V6, make it faster, and only slightly more fuel efficient. However, it never sold in any respectable numbers, and was dropped after the 7th generation of Accords (about early-mid 2000s to mid-late 2000s).

Maybe BMW can pull it off, however, Lexus does offer the GSh, which (from what I've read) accounts for a majority of Lexus GS sales in most non-US markets... and it offers similar HP. It's torque is harder to calculate, since it's primary drive and primary electric are regulated by a second electric motor-based planetary CVT. Though it's a much bigger and heavier car than any 3.
 
#43 ·
Everyone knows that the AH3 is not a track car. Besides if you wanted a track car would you not buy the slower to 60, 335i with MT instead of the one with an AT.

The $3500 so called Eco credit cuts down the difference in base price between the 335i and AH3 to 6.9%. The percent price difference between the 2011 335i and 355d was 6.5%. The combined fuel economies of the 2011 335d and 2013 AH3 are also very close at 29.5 and 29 mpgs respectively. Besides the 355d came with 17" wheels standard, so that slightly higher mpgs is really nothing great. Yes, we can also compare the 0-60 times and so and so forth, but all of that is irrelevant now because the 355d is obsolete.

In conclusion BMW made a non track hybrid car that is very very close in performance to the 355i. They have made an excellent replacement for the 335d in the US market where diesel is not only more expensive but also hard to find. Also, the EPA mileage test is not really valid for the AH3 because of the integration between the GPS and the cars computer. Because of this feature I think BMW should make GPS standard on all AH vehicles.
 
#44 ·
I would rather ride a horse than drive a stupid Hybrid. Another example of BMW having to build a car that nobody wants. If BMW wasn't forced into this efficient dynamics crap because of the "bandwagon" mindset and CAFE, they would not have a Hybrid in the lineup. You buy a BMW and worry about saving gas. Yeah right, that's what we all care about. Give me a break.

BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.
 
#45 ·
BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.
Wow! That was the best argument against the AH3 we have seen so far. Can come from only from someone who flunked both Physics 101 and Economics 101. Let me elaborate.

Physics 101: Efficiency is not just about gas mileage, it is about going further and faster. Take a look at motorsport history and you will see that every development in aerodybanics, fuel injection, gear box improvement, etc. do not just give higher top speed and better handling, it also gives better fuel economy. Because the longer you stay out on the track the lesser time you are wasting in the pits refueling.

Economics 101: Almost everyone would agree that the AH3 is better replacement to the 335d. The 335d was never a competitor for the 335i but everyone would agree that the AH3 is very close to the 335i.
 
#47 ·
I wish I knew what you saying here. I think you meant well. Maybe rewrite it and try again.

Hybrids make sense if you buy one that is totally focused on fuel savings and nothing else. Prius etcetera.

But when hybrids try to play in the performance game, they are compromised from the start. Adding weight and adding HP to basically get to the same point. Doesn't make sense. And without these incentives, the price gap is too large to be made up by the marginal MPG savings.

So with the AH you get no better performance, marginal fuel savings, and you pay more. That makes a lot of sense, it really does. I see why you bought it.
 
#48 ·
No sir, this is where you are wrong. I didn't buy the AH3 because it gives marginally better mileage but because it was less expensive than a similarly equipped 335i. The 1.9% financing as opposed the 3.19% makes a big difference over the period of the loan. You may get better financing but then you lose the $1000 BMW rebate.

There is no question that the car is overpriced without the rebates and credits. That is why I said Nav should be standard in this car. I think BMW were smart to give the eco credit, rebate and lower financing rate on the AH3. They wanted more cars on the street so owners would talk about it and spread the word. Are we not talking about it now. Btw the AH3's final drive ratio has been lengthened to give better gas mileage. If not it would have crushed the 335i or maybe even the M3 in the 0-60 times.
 
#52 ·
The 1.9% financing as opposed the 3.19% makes a big difference over the period of the loan. You may get better financing but then you lose the $1000 BMW rebate.
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you get the 3500 eco-credit, the $1000 lease/finance credit (just like 335i), and as an added incentive you get lower 1.9% financing rate (instead of 3.19 on the 335i). If this is true, then yes, the numbers do begin to make the AH worth considering. Taking way that $1000 finance credit (so that you can get a lower finance rate) would be a deal buster for me on the AH. As has already been discussed, the 1.9% financing is nice, but any top tier credit worthy individual can get a 1.5 -2.0% rate through a bank or credit union.

I am still really wondering if there is a way to get some 0 cost options, as SamS indicated earlier. That would definitly seal the deal for me!
 
#49 ·
Good point Bluelectron on the AH3 final drive ratio. Just for the record, per 13 AH7 improved 0-60 form 5.5sec(750i) to 4.6sec. Almost 1sec improvmemt is HUGE on a 4800lbs car, not to mention it was done with extra 200lbs of weight.

Imagine moving forword with all the new battery technology is coming up like plastic Li-Ion that can reduce the weight in half, pair that system on a F10 M5 or F30 M3 that can possibly improve 0-60 to the low 3sec or below. AH from performace aspect does have a lot of potential moving forward.
 
#50 ·
Assume gas going up in a logarithmic fashion to $8/gallon in 4 years, and you'll see why...we'll hit $5-6 this summer alone (we're at $4.50 in the northeast and it's not even memorial day yet!)

in fact, the owners get better mpg. i didn't get one because i wanted the PPK.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Assume gas going up in a logarithmic fashion to $8/gallon in 4 years, and you'll see why...we'll hit $5-6 this summer alone (we're at $4.50 in the northeast and it's not even memorial day yet!).
Even at $8 a gallon you would still never recoup the additional cost of a hybrid (again, that's based just on BMW's advertised MSRP and mileage numbers). I did look at how high the price would have to go to recoup the cost in a reasonable period of time, that's how I arrived at the $41.65/gallon price. If price right now was $41.65/gal you would just break even after 3 years and 45,000 miles but $41.65 is hardly a realistic proposition in even our worst nightmares. If it ever went that high the economy would be in the worst depression ever seen if only because costs that high would decimate our transportation system and luxury sports cars would be the least of our worries. :D
 
#55 ·
Sounds like MACE is pretty bitter he went with the e93 m3 instead of the e92 or ah3...

If you lease the ah3 (which you should, given the incentives) you'll end up paying about the same as a 335i and you get the fastest, most powerful, and most exclusive production 3 series ever made.

It also has newer tech than the 335i (Nav), and fuel economy on par or better than that of a 328... What's not to like? The 300 lb argument isn't a very good one when you consider the fact that one or two passengers = 300lb.... It's more than offset by the additional horses and instantaneous torque/eboost.

Don't knock this car until you drive it.
 
#59 ·
This thread is toxic and full of misinformation.

This takes the cake for having the most amount of misinformation. AH3 is the fastest, most powerful and most exclusive production 3? Really? I won't even get to the rest...

The mods should just close this thread down.

If you lease the ah3 (which you should, given the incentives) you'll end up paying about the same as a 335i and you get the fastest, most powerful, and most exclusive production 3 series ever made.

It also has newer tech than the 335i (Nav), and fuel economy on par or better than that of a 328... What's not to like? The 300 lb argument isn't a very good one when you consider the fact that one or two passengers = 300lb.... It's more than offset by the additional horses and instantaneous torque/eboost.

Don't knock this car until you drive it.
 
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