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BMW Hybrid ---- WHY?

31K views 91 replies 38 participants last post by  samualcc 
#1 · (Edited)
2013 BMW 335i (base): $44,045 23mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3555lb, HP 330
2013 BMW 335i Hybrid (base): $50,545, 25mpg City / 33mpg Hwy, Weight 3860 lb, HP 335

So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?
 
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#56 ·
Just so we have some facts to chew on... The EPA says (at current gas prices), you'd save $1000 in fuel costs over 5 years, 335i vs. AH3:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33072&id=33054

Assume you keep the car 5 years, and you're able to bring the delta between the two cars to $1000, then it's break-even. Gas price goes up, you come out ahead.

Forget the number rationale... maybe some people just like the ability to save 250gal of fuel over the course of their ownership period?
 
#58 ·
--Market share?
--"Ooooo look at me in my hybrid I'm saving the world, go green!" Yes but do you not realize batteries have a limited lifespan and can be horrendously toxic, not to mention the mountain top mining that needs to go on to acquire such resources ?
It's really not revolutionary, how bout a solar panel roof?
 
#60 ·
My reason for the AH cars is the incredible lease incentives BMW gives. The other benefit is the start stop system actually is smooth and transparent vs the regular gas cars. Just getting the new nav system on the f30 was worth it alone.
 
#62 ·
I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but I'm probably the only person in the US who has actually owned both a current M3, as well as an AH3. So, I'm very familiar with the capabilities of both. In any street situation, the AH3 (in Sport Mode + DHP) is just as fast as an M3. The M3 wallops the AH3 in the sound department, as well as being 2+ notches up when it comes to road handling/grip. The trade-off being exactly 14mpg vs. 28mpg.
 
#63 ·
"in the sound department"-are you referring to a engine sound, road noise or the stereo system?
My AH3 should arrive this week. In the extended test drive I had of the car before ordering I felt it was the best car I had ever driven (Better in all ways than my 2010 328i).
 
#68 ·
I did extended test drives of an AH3 and a 335 x drive today. To me, both are great, well built, very fast cars. Personally, I could not feel much difference with: the extra weight in the back of the AH3 or the extra power from the battery (which some say helps mask the turbo engine lag). But what the heck do I know, my daily drive is a Chevy Tahoe and I haven't driven a bimmer since we sold my wife's e90 4 years ago. I am sure there are noticeable differences to someone who is more sensitive to specifac aspects of these cars. I wasn't able to compare the A.S.S, as it was disabled in the x-drive (which is the first thing I will have my dealer do to my car)

I am pretty sure I will go with the non hybrid for a couple of reasons. First, quite frankly, I could care less about the slighly better fuel economy. Dont get me wrong, I like better gas milage, I like saving money, but if I was worried about saving a couple of bucks each week in gas money I would not be purchasing a 300 hp car. Second, I must admit, while I trust that BMW has engeered a quality hybrid vehicle, I am not sure that the Germans excel in this area of technology and I am a bit concerned that this is uncharted territory for BMW. Not that I know a ton about cars, but the hybrid technology seems to add a huge dynamic to this car and I can't help but wonder if the added technology will not just be one more thing that could go wrong with the car. When it came down to it, the main reason why I was leaning toward the AH was the new Nav. After thinking long and hard about it, I realized that my desire to have an updated Nav system was not proper justification to getting an AH3. Plus, I really think I will end up getting x drive. I live in Michigan and that will be a good selling point when I go to sell. Plus, with the x drive I can get 0-60 in 4.8 sec. I don't think that I could deal with getting 0-60 in 5.2 as in the AH3 (just kidding about that one, ha).
 
#70 ·
I get nothing from that link.

Yep, that website will not save a comparison, if you go to http://www.automobile-catalog.com clic on browse models top right, select BMW and then scroll down you can select various F30 models including AH3 328 AND 335, make sure you select US version steptronic for each model and hit compare then you will see a lot of specs and stats for all three cars.

PS Sams you have exhibited the patience of Job explaining AH3 benefits and features in various threads, I appreciate it. |:thumbup:
 
#71 ·
I will say that when my lease is up on my 135i next year, the ActiveHybrid 3 is on my short list and may be one of the few reasons I'll pick a 3 series over a 4 (unless there's an AH4... now that'd be something). I am a natural early adopter though, and the technology and goal of the AH3 actually interests me greatly. It's actually the only 3 series that has caught my attention since the introduction of the F30. While I like them, there's nothing really compelling in the range for me... except the AH3.

I look forward to testing one. As soon as one of my local dealers has one to test!
 
#72 ·
SamS, hats off to you for providing actual AH3 experience and in effort to explain the objective of BMW ActiveHybrid for the Bimmerfest community.

IMO, the word "Hybrid" has been hijacked by Japanese manufacture's for too long and most of consumer's are brainwashed to believe the only valuable intent should be in the interest of MPG. Hybrid is simply an method to store wasted energy in a battery then later can be use as motion assistant if needed. Perhaps BMW should name the AH differently like KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) which is how Formula 1 reference to a battery assisted system.
 
#73 ·
Thanks gents.

On paper, and even on test drives, it is difficult to get a grasp on what this car is all about. Personally, I was expecting a bit more ability to "drive on battery", before I actually lived with the car. In other words, before I owned the car, I expected to get up in the morning, jump in the car and cruise a mile down the street without the motor starting at all. This does not happen, mainly because the car is cold and (typically) because the battery is fairly discharged. However, if you have been out driving for a half hour or so, then you can certainly get back into the car and put around on pure battery power at speeds 0-20mph. With aggressive throttle, the ICE will of course kick back on.

If you're reading this thread and already hate the ActiveHybrid cars, then nothing that anyone writes here will convince you that it's anything other than a wasteful, expensive POS.

However, if you're intrigued by the following things, then it's definitely worth a second look:

  • Appreciate the ability to sit at long lights/lines in the car, without the motor coming on.
  • Like being able to cruise around at parking lots speeds without ever using a drop of gas.
  • Hate the normally abrasive F30 integration of A.S.S., but still appreciate the gas-saving potential
  • Appreciate that the motor seamlessly cuts off when coasting or when you let off the throttle <-less gas wasted
  • Enjoy the speed and grunt of the 335i, and also don't mind a bit more weight in the rear to give it true 50/50 weight distribution.
  • Like getting 328i mpg with 335i performance.
  • Are interested in the new iDrive integration, and don't want to wait until September 2013 for its appearance on all US F30s.
 
#74 ·
Those things aren't real important to me. Bottom line is you get a little better gas mileage in a heavier car that without massive incentives is much more expensive and will never cost justify itself. I don't get it but don't want to rain on anybody's parade.
 
#80 ·
Hey SamS, to add to your list of pro's/interests for the Hybrid, what about CO2 emissions? I know it goes hand in hand with mpg, but still, it's a pro. I understand you save 2mpg (theoretical or not), but you mentionned idling in traffic, have you noticed a savings of more than 2 mpg?

I'm a bit of a walking dilemma. I love the idea of being a tree hunger while driving a 300hp sports sedan (or station wagon)... :D

I wonder if BMW will make an F31 AH3! I'd love to see that!

Thanks for all the info BTW.
HPH
 
#81 · (Edited)
I can appreciate the improved CO2 of the AH3, but I really don't think much about it, compared to other cars. In other words, it's nice I'm not spewing out gasses when cruising slowly or at lights, but there is no tangible benefit, like higher MPG.

The 2mpg (or more) savings is really not theoretical, it's tangible. My car now has 2000 miles on it, and my combined average is 28.3mpg. This is not the over-inflated-iDrive-calculation, this is manual pump calculation. This average does have a serious road trip calculated in it. As such, I expect normal commute MPG to level out in the 25-27mpg range. This is what I see from 328i owners with the N20. 335i owners seem to be in the low-20s for real city driving.

When you're in heavy city traffic, the main MPG savings comes from the fact that the motor is completely off when coasting, stopped, or upon initial acceleration. You're still going to use up serious gas when you are going from 10mph up to 45mph. The hybrid aspect is not helping at all during this acceleration range. And getting from zero-to-45mph speed is what takes the most gas, in any traditional vehicle.

If you're cruising down a street at 20mph steady speed, then likely you'll be on total battery power. But if you need to kick it up to 45mph quickly, then the motor will (seamlessly) come on, and burn up some gas of course.
 
#82 ·
Good info, thanks! So what is your ratio of city/highway on the 2000 miles and the road trip to get to 28.3 mpg avg? Just to get a feel.
With my 323i with a 40/60 split I averaged 8.8L/100 km so 26.7 mpg (hand calculated like you, although the onboard computer was really close, like .2L/100 km...) I drove, most of the time, quite gently. So you're 28.3 mpg avg sounds really good!

I never should have sold my 323i... :cry: But at least I can think of getting a AH3 or 335i in a couple of years! :D
 
#83 ·
Approximately half of that was pure highway. My Fuelly details are here: http://www.fuelly.com/driver/SamS/activehybrid-3

Overall, I think the AH3 lives up perfectly to it's EPA rating of 25city/28mixed/33hwy. If you're going to have some "fun" in the city, then 25mpg is what you should expect. If I take it a bit easier, and use Eco Pro, 26-27mpg is going to be more realistic with normal driving.
 
#84 ·
My guess is the highway is better mpg. My AH7 does 28mpg when i try to be conservative- a car with a twin turbo v8/17 feet long/weights 5k lbs...so 33 mpg for highway on the AH3 seems low for this car.
 
#85 ·
Nope, 33mpg for extended highway trips is about right.

One thing you have to keep in mind, the AH3 should perform near-identical to a 335i w/8HP transmission while at highway speeds. The battery is not driving the wheels, and the N55 is not turned off unless you are coasting. In reality, it is difficult to coast for more than a few seconds at a time, while maintaining a constant speed. The AH3 does have a slightly better final drive ratio in the 8HP to improve MPG, but combine that with the coasting benefits, and maybe you can save 1mpg on the highway vs. a traditional 335i. Consider the extra 300lbs you're hauling around in the back, and you can see how it can even be a wash compared to a 335i for hwy mpg.

If you take out all stopping on a traditional trip, and just take a 100 mile run on good highway, then sure you might hit 36-37mpg. But you'll get the same results with a 335i.
 
#87 ·
"Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car."

Nobody cared to double check the math? That's 52 GALLONS saved a year or $234. And with that, I'll return to watching the debate.
 
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