Another BMW 328i and Cadillac ATS head to head: This time AWD

by Bimmerfest.com Member - dtc100 on February 27, 2013, 2:05 pm
BMW 328i xDrive vs Cadillac ATS 2.0T AWD

If you're looking for a comfortable, luxurious, and prestigious car, the BMW has the edge, but if you're looking for a personal driving machine, the ATS leaps out in front. For my money and for my requirements, I'd be buying the BMW. It's still a sport sedan even though it never made me smile like the ATS did. But somehow I ended up with a wife and three kids, and I absolutely need the added utility and space the BMW offers.

http://www.autos.ca/car-comparisons/...ts-2-0t-awd/5/

Not too surprising. I am hoping BMW makes some changes, at least for the sport trims.


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76 responses to Another BMW 328i and Cadillac ATS head to head: This time AWD

tturedraider commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:31 pm

Testing AWD models in Canada and all he could come up with is one three sentence paragraph and not the slightest bit of actual performance or technical comparison.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Testing AWD models in Canada and all he could come up with is one three sentence paragraph and not the slightest bit of actual performance or technical comparison.
*Doh*
408Racer commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Testing AWD models in Canada and all he could come up with is one three sentence paragraph and not the slightest bit of actual performance or technical comparison.
That guy sounds a little p-whipped too. Who the hell starts a comparo with the wife acceptance factor? Who cares? Unless she's paying for it.
tankton commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:43 pm

...there are 5 pages in the review, just in case if anyone is wondering.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:44 pm

Fluff. No substance to really speak of.
BMWTurboDzl commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Testing AWD models in Canada and all he could come up with is one three sentence paragraph and not the slightest bit of actual performance or technical comparison.
Outside of bragging rights performance specs matter little for 99% of the drivers. These are AWD midsize sedans afterall. IJS.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App
Jamesonsviggen commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:51 pm

The xdrive automatically means the wafty base suspension. When going up against an ATS or E90, its not a great way of starting off in the f30s favor.
tturedraider commented:
February 27, 2013, 2:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tankton View Post
...there are 5 pages in the review, just in case if anyone is wondering.
Yeah, I went to the beginning and read the whole article to find those three sentences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl View Post
Outside of bragging rights performance specs matter little for 99% of the drivers. These are AWD midsize sedans afterall. IJS.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App
I was referring to some comparison of the AWD performance.
jjcruiser commented:
February 27, 2013, 3:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Who the hell starts a comparo with the wife acceptance factor?
People who like being happily married do.
dtc100 commented:
February 27, 2013, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The xdrive automatically means the wafty base suspension. When going up against an ATS or E90, its not a great way of starting off in the f30s favor.
I was specifically referring to xdrive also. For some performance brands, people get AWD for added performance, not just drive in snow. Somehow with BMW xdrive, the performance aspect suffers. There is no reason for that.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
February 27, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I was specifically referring to xdrive also. For some performance brands, people get AWD for added performance, not just drive in snow. Somehow with BMW xdrive, the performance aspect suffers. There is no reason for that.
Yeah, not a fan. You can add DHP to an xDrive, but that is not the same as just having a normal sports pack xdrive like the olden days.
beden1 commented:
February 27, 2013, 4:18 pm

This is sad that anyone would come to this conclusion about any BMW versus a Cadillac of all cars: "if you’re looking for a comfortable, luxurious, and prestigious car, the BMW has the edge, but if you’re looking for a personal driving machine, the ATS leaps out in front".

I know, I know - the writer does not know what he's talking about; the writer clearly does not know anything about cars; who is this guy?; and, I'm a troll, even though I'm on my 6th BMW.
tturedraider commented:
February 27, 2013, 4:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I was specifically referring to xdrive also. For some performance brands, people get AWD for added performance, not just drive in snow. Somehow with BMW xdrive, the performance aspect suffers. There is no reason for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Yeah, not a fan. You can add DHP to an xDrive, but that is not the same as just having a normal sports pack xdrive like the olden days.
What olden days?? xi/xDrive has always meant no sport suspension for BMW. Unless we're talking about some really olden days with which I'm not familiar.


I agree BMW suffers from having a more utilitarian view and application of AWD. Of course, BMW views performance dynamics as meaning RWD. BMW "suffers" from having a more utilitarian view and application of many things and has a long history of putting more emphasis on function over form. BMW interiors are a pretty good example of this. I believe it is pretty well accepted they are the most spartan and Teutonic of any of their competitors.

As the world population continues its decline toward a more and more fearful existence those views seem to be pressing in on BMW. It seems more and more people are afraid of RWD, and even merely having FWD. We must have AWD in order to maximize every scintilla of safety we can possibly perceive. Then there's the turn from ever having to do anything that might possibly get your hands dirty (to which, admittedly, BMW adds with its included maintenance program) by doing something like putting on winter tires.

Actual fun is on the verge of being completely replaced by virtual fun. I've said here in the past that "BMW people" are more the type who prefer being involved with doing things for themselves and "Mercedes people" are more the type to prefer having other people do things for them. I've gotten quite a lot of agreement with that, even from Mercedes people. It seems to me today's BMW buyers are showing more characteristics of yesterday's Merc buyers.
408Racer commented:
February 27, 2013, 4:33 pm

In Jamestown, the people who refused to drink the kool-air were called trolls.
408Racer commented:
February 27, 2013, 4:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
As the world population continues its decline toward a more and more fearful existence those views seem to be pressing in on BMW.....

.....Then there's the turn from ever having to do anything that might possibly get your hands dirty (to which, admittedly, BMW adds with its included maintenance program) by doing something like putting on winter tires.

Actual fun is on the verge of being completely replaced by virtual fun....
What is this?

tturedraider commented:
February 27, 2013, 5:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
What is this?

Please, don't get me or any of the rest of us started!!!! The elimination of that may be the SINGLE MOST STUPID thing BMW has ever done!!!!! But, in their defense (just the tiniest bit) they certainly aren't alone. I think Porsche even beat them to it.
justinnum1 commented:
February 27, 2013, 5:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
This is sad that anyone would come to this conclusion about any BMW versus a Cadillac of all cars: "if you’re looking for a comfortable, luxurious, and prestigious car, the BMW has the edge, but if you’re looking for a personal driving machine, the ATS leaps out in front".

I know, I know - the writer does not know what he's talking about; the writer clearly does not know anything about cars; who is this guy?; and, I'm a troll, even though I'm on my 6th BMW.
Get over it.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
February 27, 2013, 5:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
This is sad that anyone would come to this conclusion about any BMW versus a Cadillac of all cars: "if you’re looking for a comfortable, luxurious, and prestigious car, the BMW has the edge, but if you’re looking for a personal driving machine, the ATS leaps out in front".

I know, I know - the writer does not know what he's talking about; the writer clearly does not know anything about cars; who is this guy?; and, I'm a troll, even though I'm on my 6th BMW.
Many sources had the E60 M5 bettered by the CTSV. Watch that happen again when the new one arrives to better the F10 which has had a lukewarm reception.
Saintor commented:
February 27, 2013, 6:31 pm

Gasp... * 55K$ * + txs ---> 64K$C .... about 1000$/mo on a lease, typical BMW Canada style.
beden1 commented:
February 27, 2013, 8:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Many sources had the E60 M5 bettered by the CTSV. Watch that happen again when the new one arrives to better the F10 which has had a lukewarm reception.
I am not a fan of the F10 after having one as a loaner for a day. There have been numerous discussions about how the new F30 is more comfortable than the E90, and how it is a bit softer. But, I guess I really didn't want to believe that BMW did the same thing to the 3 Series that they did to the 5 Series.

I guess I'm in denial.

The CTSV is a great car and it deserves to get better ratings as compared to the E60 M5. But, the 3 Series has been BMW's wheel house car.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
February 27, 2013, 8:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I am not a fan of the F10 after having one as a loaner for a day. There have been numerous discussions about how the new F30 is more comfortable than the E90, and how it is a bit softer. But, I guess I really didn't want to believe that BMW did the same thing to the 3 Series that they did to the 5 Series.

I guess I'm in denial.

The CTSV is a great car and it deserves to get better ratings as compared to the E60 M5. But, the 3 Series has been BMW's wheel house car.
The 3 has not been softened AS much as the 5 which has inherited too much of the 7 in it's weight and construction. I have read reviews where writers were worried that after the 5 redesign, that BMW would do the same to the 3 and were glad to find it left intact.

In most head to heads, the 3 series is still coming out on top of the ATS, though its close. So I don't think it's that bleak. I myself no, If I did not get my car I would have had an ATS as I find the Brembos and LSD aapealling when BMW keeps things like an LSD out of all non M cars.
Mark K commented:
February 27, 2013, 8:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
What is this?

Looks like vampire-impaling-must-have tool. It even has black vampire blood on it! How cool is that!

How can I get this to store in my BMW?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Bimmer App
HugH commented:
February 27, 2013, 9:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
That guy sounds a little p-whipped too. Who the hell starts a comparo with the wife acceptance factor? Who cares? Unless she's paying for it.
I do. Perhaps that's the reason we've been married for 55 yrs
dtc100 commented:
February 28, 2013, 11:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
That guy sounds a little p-whipped too. Who the hell starts a comparo with the wife acceptance factor? Who cares? Unless she's paying for it.
To be fair, for many guys buying a car, they do not take passengers', or other potential drivers' viewpoint into consideration. But we are talking "family sedan" here

If you are getting a dedicated car for yourself, I agree no need to care what the wife says, as they usually don't ask for our opinion buying their stuff.
captainaudio commented:
February 28, 2013, 11:56 am

Mrs. Audio always has input on car purchases and I would never buy a car that she didn't like. If it was totally up to her we would be driving an Aston Martin Rapide or a Bentley Continental Coupe.

CA
BruceOmega commented:
February 28, 2013, 2:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I was specifically referring to xdrive also. For some performance brands, people get AWD for added performance, not just drive in snow. Somehow with BMW xdrive, the performance aspect suffers. There is no reason for that.
I like that BMW is now offering an optional suspension for the F30 xDrive, as far as I know a first for a 3 series sedan.

When xDrive was first becoming available on the F30, one new owner said he could not tell a difference between AWD and RWD F30's on public roads.

I am beginning to think the AWD vs RWD question for BMW sedans is not a one size fits all:
- People could tell the difference between RWD and AWD E90's, and AWD sat a bit higher than non sport RWD
- Not clear if those differences exist between AWD and RWD on the F30, and AWD does not sit higher than a non sport RWD
- A Car & Drive article when AWD was first offered on the 7 series said the 7 handled better with AWD
- That same C&D article said AWD on the E60 5 series brought undesirable understeeer
- The F10 5 series started offering an optional suspension with AWD, and I don't recall many claims of a difference in driving feel compared to RWD

Bruce
dtc100 commented:
March 1, 2013, 11:24 am

The February numbers are out for a few brands:

C Class 7,302.
3 Series 6,973.
G 4,529.
ATS 3,382.
A4 3,089 (A4/A5 4,262).
TL 2,216.
IS 1,532.

Others should follow.
MikeTerp commented:
April 5, 2013, 5:16 pm

This issue has come up before, but I definitely agree with 408racer that the elimination of the oil dipstick was one of the stupidest things BMW ever did. Hooking everything up to a computer is not always a good idea. There have been any number of comments posted on this and other boards about the oil sensor not always being accurate, so that it is easily possible to overfill the crankcase. I tested this on my E90 and found that when I changed my oil, I could put in less than six quarts (not even the seven recommneded) and the computer read "full". Dipsticks are cheap and reliable. BMW ought to bring them back. And for those arguing that many buyers don't check their oil - right - and they probably don't scroll through their maintenance function on iDrive either. Give us a dipstick.
dtc100 commented:
April 9, 2013, 11:51 am

Have not visited the Cadillac ATS forums for awhile, decided to take a peek. What struck me was, there are many young ATS drivers there comparing their aftermarket tunes for their 2.0Ts, and over here mostly older drivers discussing fuel economy and comfort. Sign of time I suppose.
HokieXDriver commented:
April 9, 2013, 12:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Have not visited the Cadillac ATS forums for awhile, decided to take a peek. What struck me was, there are many young ATS drivers there comparing their aftermarket tunes for their 2.0Ts, and over here mostly older drivers discussing fuel economy and comfort. Sign of time I suppose.
Oddly enough, this is true of the e60 forum here. Everyone is dropping, slamming, or pimping. Gets kind of...hmm...old...after a while.
kpgray commented:
April 9, 2013, 12:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Have not visited the Cadillac ATS forums for awhile, decided to take a peek. What struck me was, there are many young ATS drivers there comparing their aftermarket tunes for their 2.0Ts, and over here mostly older drivers discussing fuel economy and comfort. Sign of time I suppose.
ATS is not your Grandfather's Model 61 Cadillac....

Attachment 370505
Chris90 commented:
April 9, 2013, 1:17 pm

We saw a black ATS at the zoo this weekend, and my wife’s comment was “How come all the Cadillac drivers look like wife beaters?”

Car looked great actually, very low and wide, looks much better in black.
Jugghaid commented:
April 9, 2013, 2:38 pm

I test drove the ATS. And the XTS and CTS.

Great car, but I liked the 3 series better. Not a huge gap, but a gap nonetheless.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
April 9, 2013, 3:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Have not visited the Cadillac ATS forums for awhile, decided to take a peek. What struck me was, there are many young ATS drivers there comparing their aftermarket tunes for their 2.0Ts, and over here mostly older drivers discussing fuel economy and comfort. Sign of time I suppose.
Its this forum, not the F30. The other F30 forum has many lively threads dedicating to tuning, racing, dynos, and bolt ons. I do not come to this forum for such discussion, its not the strong point of this one.
Bmwlvr60 commented:
April 11, 2013, 12:10 am

I test drove the ATS 3 weeks ago. The 3 Series blows it away. Sure the Cadillac has come a long way, but I don't understand how anyone would think it handles better than a 3. It doesn't feel the road better, nor corner better and certainly it doesn't reach the fun to drive factor.

I also have trouble getting over the fact that Cadillac's traditionally attract the 70+ year old crowd. My local Cadillac dealer is run by a bunch of stereotypical New Jersey unprofessionals- think Sopranos wash outs. Terrible dealer.

Coming from Japanese cars I have to say that the 3 series xdrive is a blast to drive. Adding DHP to the driving experience keeps me smiling. Since I live in the northeast mountains I won't buy a non-AWD vehicle. For you folks that don't get snow you absolutely should buy RWD cars- they're even more fun to drive.
dtc100 commented:
April 11, 2013, 5:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
I test drove the ATS 3 weeks ago. The 3 Series blows it away. Sure the Cadillac has come a long way, but I don't understand how anyone would think it handles better than a 3. It doesn't feel the road better, nor corner better and certainly it doesn't reach the fun to drive factor.

I also have trouble getting over the fact that Cadillac's traditionally attract the 70+ year old crowd. My local Cadillac dealer is run by a bunch of stereotypical New Jersey unprofessionals- think Sopranos wash outs. Terrible dealer.

Coming from Japanese cars I have to say that the 3 series xdrive is a blast to drive. Adding DHP to the driving experience keeps me smiling. Since I live in the northeast mountains I won't buy a non-AWD vehicle. For you folks that don't get snow you absolutely should buy RWD cars- they're even more fun to drive.
The ATS has softer steering, although very precise, the power deliveries and fuel efficiency also are short of those of F30s. But there is consensus the ATS chassis is better tuned for spirited driving.

The 3.6 v6 was a ton of fun, a must if one chooses ATS IMHO.
JT///M3 commented:
April 12, 2013, 2:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTerp View Post
This issue has come up before, but I definitely agree with 408racer that the elimination of the oil dipstick was one of the stupidest things BMW ever did. Hooking everything up to a computer is not always a good idea. There have been any number of comments posted on this and other boards about the oil sensor not always being accurate, so that it is easily possible to overfill the crankcase. I tested this on my E90 and found that when I changed my oil, I could put in less than six quarts (not even the seven recommneded) and the computer read "full". Dipsticks are cheap and reliable. BMW ought to bring them back. And for those arguing that many buyers don't check their oil - right - and they probably don't scroll through their maintenance function on iDrive either. Give us a dipstick.
I find the electronic dipstick very convenient. I'm glad BMW went this direction. I do not want to get my hands dirty checking the oil when driving a high end luxury car. It also tells me when its time to add 1 qt. of oil. How hard is that to do?

I think many people do not understand HOW TO USE the electronic dipstick so they think it sucks. You have to drive the car and let the oil warm up. Then you park it on a level surface and reset the system so it takes a fresh reading. Its like so many of you are stuck in the 80s or 90s or something. Technology is our friend. Embrace it.

This is the same whiney comparisons I hear all the time from people who want to row their own gears. Sure its fun and nostalgic, but I love the F1 factor and precise rev matched gear changes of SMG and DCT. And when you are tired after a long day or work or stuck in traffic, you put it in auto mode and sit back and enjoy the music or conversation. It doesn't make you any less of an enthusiast. But yet you hear all these "purist" say how they need a stick or the car isn't sporty enough. Give me a break.
BMWTurboDzl commented:
April 12, 2013, 9:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
I find the electronic dipstick very convenient. I'm glad BMW went this direction. I do not want to get my hands dirty checking the oil when driving a high end luxury car. It also tells me when its time to add 1 qt. of oil. How hard is that to do?

I think many people do not understand HOW TO USE the electronic dipstick so they think it sucks. You have to drive the car and let the oil warm up. Then you park it on a level surface and reset the system so it takes a fresh reading. Its like so many of you are stuck in the 80s or 90s or something. Technology is our friend. Embrace it.

This is the same whiney comparisons I hear all the time from people who want to row their own gears. Sure its fun and nostalgic, but I love the F1 factor and precise rev matched gear changes of SMG and DCT. And when you are tired after a long day or work or stuck in traffic, you put it in auto mode and sit back and enjoy the music or conversation. It doesn't make you any less of an enthusiast. But yet you hear all these "purist" say how they need a stick or the car isn't sporty enough. Give me a break.
Only problem is that historically the BMW setup is unreliable.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App
Michael Schott commented:
April 12, 2013, 10:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
I find the electronic dipstick very convenient. I'm glad BMW went this direction. I do not want to get my hands dirty checking the oil when driving a high end luxury car. It also tells me when its time to add 1 qt. of oil. How hard is that to do?

I think many people do not understand HOW TO USE the electronic dipstick so they think it sucks. You have to drive the car and let the oil warm up. Then you park it on a level surface and reset the system so it takes a fresh reading. Its like so many of you are stuck in the 80s or 90s or something. Technology is our friend. Embrace it.

This is the same whiney comparisons I hear all the time from people who want to row their own gears. Sure its fun and nostalgic, but I love the F1 factor and precise rev matched gear changes of SMG and DCT. And when you are tired after a long day or work or stuck in traffic, you put it in auto mode and sit back and enjoy the music or conversation. It doesn't make you any less of an enthusiast. But yet you hear all these "purist" say how they need a stick or the car isn't sporty enough. Give me a break.
Most of us who prefer to row our own do so because we enjoy it. We are not saying that those who prefer an AT are not enthusiasts. By the way, I never tire of my MT, no matter the traffic scenario.
Chris90 commented:
April 12, 2013, 10:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
This is the same whiney comparisons I hear all the time from people who want to row their own gears. Sure its fun and nostalgic, but I love the F1 factor and precise rev matched gear changes of SMG and DCT. And when you are tired after a long day or work or stuck in traffic, you put it in auto mode and sit back and enjoy the music or conversation. It doesn't make you any less of an enthusiast. But yet you hear all these "purist" say how they need a stick or the car isn't sporty enough. Give me a break.
+1 and I'm really looking forward to self drive, cause who can be bothered to steer their own car these days?
JT///M3 commented:
April 12, 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
+1 and I'm really looking forward to self drive, cause who can be bothered to steer their own car these days?
hahah, I still own 2 cars that have 6spd manuals so don't get it twisted. Its fun for about 30 mins and then I wanna hop back in my M5 and give it a rest. I'm guessing many of you haven't spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a car that has SMG/DCT and I get that. You can't appreciate something you've never really had a chance to truly experience.
Elk commented:
April 12, 2013, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
I'm guessing many of you haven't spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a car that has SMG/DCT and I get that. You can't appreciate something you've never really had a chance to truly experience.
Complete nonsense. Others simply have a different opinion than yours. <*sheesh*>
JT///M3 commented:
April 12, 2013, 7:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Complete nonsense. Others simply have a different opinion than yours. <*sheesh*>
You can't be serious...
captainaudio commented:
April 12, 2013, 7:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray View Post
ATS is not your Grandfather's Model 61 Cadillac....

Attachment 370505
Don't underestimate your Grandfather's Model 61 Cadillac. In its day the Cadillac 61 was one of the highest performance cars available.

This effectively stock Model 61 Cadillac was entered in the 1950 24 Hours of LeMans by noted American sportsman Briggs Cunnigham.
It was driven by Miles and Sam Collier to a 10th place finish.



The Effectively Stock Cadillac in the 1950 Le Mans Race

CA
Elk commented:
April 12, 2013, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
You can't be serious...
Absolutely.

You prefer an AT variant. Perfectly fine.
Others prefer an MT. Perfectly fine.

To assert that all will prefer an AT (regardless of the variant) if one has "truly experienced it" is utterly ridiculous. Many of us have owned and driven both - and prefer a manual. Many also prefer the AT. Neither is right or wrong; it is a subjective preference.

No matter how many times I experience a totally clean, efficient, simple to use, programmable, remote controlled gas "fireplace," I still vastly prefer the aesthetics of a real wood fireplace. I appreciate you prefer gas.
JT///M3 commented:
April 12, 2013, 7:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Absolutely.

You prefer an AT variant. Perfectly fine.
Others prefer an MT. Perfectly fine.

To assert that all will prefer an AT (regardless of the variant) if one has "truly experienced it" is utterly ridiculous. Many of us have owned and driven both - and prefer a manual. Many also prefer the AT. Neither is right or wrong; it is a subjective preference.

No matter how many times I experience a totally clean, efficient, simple to use, programmable, remote controlled gas "fireplace," I still vastly prefer the aesthetics of a real wood fireplace. I appreciate you prefer gas.
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox. And that was my whole point in regards to the F1 experience.

Now, SMG/DCT can act like an auto tranny, but in no way can you compare their performance to one. I have heard good things about the new 8spd autobox but I won't comment until I get a chance to try one out at length.
captainaudio commented:
April 12, 2013, 7:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox. And that was my whole point in regards to the F1 experience.

Now, SMG/DCT can act like an auto tranny, but in no way can you compare their performance to one. I have heard good things about the new 8spd autobox but I won't comment until I get a chance to try one out at length.
Since some people here don't seem to understand why you can't compare the performance of an automatic transmission to a DCT why don't you, in technical terms, with real world numbers, explain why so they no longer make that mistake.

Thanks,

CA
Chris90 commented:
April 12, 2013, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox. And that was my whole point in regards to the F1 experience.

Now, SMG/DCT can act like an auto tranny, but in no way can you compare their performance to one. I have heard good things about the new 8spd autobox but I won't comment until I get a chance to try one out at length.
You missed his point. You're saying rowing the gears for yourself is archaic, like a dipstick. We're saying we prefer to do it ourselves. So it doesn't matter how good a DCT is, we're rather do the work ourselves. It's like the satisfaction of a nicely pulled off heel & toe heading into a corner. I don't think I'd get the same satisfaction from pulling a lever on the steering column.

I've driven a DCT in a GTI, I thought it was great, but would rather still shift for myself.
jjcruiser commented:
April 12, 2013, 8:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
No matter how many times I experience a totally clean, efficient, simple to use, programmable, remote controlled gas "fireplace," I still vastly prefer the aesthetics of a real wood fireplace. I appreciate you prefer gas.
Your analogy is excellent. But you're wasting your pearls on someone (the first person I've seen actually brag about SMG transmissions btw) who is just trying to rile people up.
captainaudio commented:
April 12, 2013, 9:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You missed his point. You're saying rowing the gears for yourself is archaic, like a dipstick. We're saying we prefer to do it ourselves. So it doesn't matter how good a DCT is, we're rather do the work ourselves. It's like the satisfaction of a nicely pulled off heel & toe heading into a corner. I don't think I'd get the same satisfaction from pulling a lever on the steering column.

I've driven a DCT in a GTI, I thought it was great, but would rather still shift for myself.
I totally agree but after you have mastered the skill and when you have reached the point where it is second nature and and all of your shifts are perfectly executed the novelty can start to wear off.

CA
JT///M3 commented:
April 12, 2013, 10:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Since some people here don't seem to understand why you can't compare the performance of an automatic transmission to a DCT why don't you, in technical terms, with real world numbers, explain why so they no longer make that mistake.

Thanks,

CA
This is like explaining to virgins what it is to have sex. My best and only advice would be to go try it yourself...hahahha

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum...I love Jon Shafer and the event, but geesh...this is like the newb forum for all the first time BMW owners. Yay, I just got my first BMW, let me go post on Bimmerfest.com

And to whoever made the comment about SMG, more ignorance, half truths, and here-say. I won't even waste my effort in educating people who don't have the capacity or appreciation for it. Just do a search or something.

Unsubscribing lol
beden1 commented:
April 12, 2013, 10:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
hahah, I still own 2 cars that have 6spd manuals so don't get it twisted. Its fun for about 30 mins and then I wanna hop back in my M5 and give it a rest. I'm guessing many of you haven't spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a car that has SMG/DCT and I get that. You can't appreciate something you've never really had a chance to truly experience.
Well, my 335is has a DCT and I strongly prefer a manual transmission. The DCT is a great transmission that rev matches on down shifts and up shifts near optimum when pushing the car in sport+ auto mode. In manual mode, the paddle shifters are somewhat fun and are like playing a video game, but, I'd still rather row my own gears.

I've been driving my 335is again for the past 6+ weeks and I sorely miss my other sports car with a MT. As nice as my 335is is, I miss shifting gears the most. I've been thinking about it for a while now, and I'm at the point that if I had to choose between a Porsche Carrera GTS with a PDK (DCT) or a BMW 335is with a manual transmission, I'd take the 335is with a manual transmission.

I bought the 335is as a compromise car that my wife would also enjoy to drive and that's why I opted for the DCT. She absolutely loves the 335is and I'm very glad she does. But, I'm also glad that I did not compromise when I bought the Porsche, and I got one with a manual transmission like I've had in all of my previous sports cars.

I've also driven BMWs with SMG transmissions, and since you like auto trannies so much, do yourself a favor by driving a BMW with a DCT. Afterwards, you will know to not classify the DCT and SMG in the same category.
Chris90 commented:
April 13, 2013, 6:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I totally agree but after you have mastered the skill and when you have reached the point where it is second nature and and all of your shifts are perfectly executed the novelty can start to wear off.

CA
I've been heel & toeing my BMWs for 14 years, it hasn't worn off. Lots of experts will say the same.
Chris90 commented:
April 13, 2013, 6:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
This is like explaining to virgins what it is to have sex. My best and only advice would be to go try it yourself...hahahha

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum...I love Jon Shafer and the event, but geesh...this is like the newb forum for all the first time BMW owners. Yay, I just got my first BMW, let me go post on Bimmerfest.com

And to whoever made the comment about SMG, more ignorance, half truths, and here-say. I won't even waste my effort in educating people who don't have the capacity or appreciation for it. Just do a search or something.

Unsubscribing lol
Oh noes, someone call the whaaaambulance!
Elk commented:
April 13, 2013, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox.
I have missed nothing. I have extensively driven cars equipped with such automatic transmissions. I prefer to shift a street car simply because I enjoy it. You do not. We get it.

While I can heel/toe into a hot corner on the track, and enjoy this a great deal, I do not pretend I can do better than a modern AT overall in quickness and overall smoothness. For racing, an AT is the obviously superior choice. (Do not fool yourself BMW's SMG is a akin to an F1 transmission however.)

Contemporary ATs are efficient. So is a gas fireplace.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
April 13, 2013, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
This is like explaining to virgins what it is to have sex. My best and only advice would be to go try it yourself...hahahha

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum...I love Jon Shafer and the event, but geesh...this is like the newb forum for all the first time BMW owners. Yay, I just got my first BMW, let me go post on Bimmerfest.com

And to whoever made the comment about SMG, more ignorance, half truths, and here-say. I won't even waste my effort in educating people who don't have the capacity or appreciation for it. Just do a search or something.

Unsubscribing lol
I had a DSG (DCT) in my previous car. If it doesn't have a third pedal, it is an automatic in my book. No matter how my gears you can add to it, how much technology you can dump into or how fancy the name is, LOL. It does NOT come close to the engagement of a true manual. Period. Never did and never will. /THREAD.
Mark K commented:
April 13, 2013, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox. And that was my whole point in regards to the F1 experience.
1. If it doesn't have clutch pedal, it is an automatic transmission no matter how many clutches it has.

2. I guess you missed Lewis Hamilton's comment when he bought Pagani Zonda MT? He said (Yes, yes, tongue in cheek ... bla bla) "Since my company car is an automatic I wanted a manual transmission to have fun on weekends." I guess you know better than Lewis
Chris90 commented:
April 13, 2013, 4:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark k View Post
2. I guess you missed lewis hamilton's comment when he bought pagani zonda mt? He said (yes, yes, tongue in cheek ... Bla bla) "since my company car is an automatic i wanted a manual transmission to have fun on weekends." i guess you know better than lewis
Seriously.
Mark K commented:
April 13, 2013, 6:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Seriously.
Most serious. Read below the third picture:

http://www.imaginelifestyles.com/lux...lewis-hamilton

After Kimi (untouchable at first spot), I started liking this guy more and more lately.
Chris90 commented:
April 13, 2013, 7:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Most serious. Read below the third picture:

http://www.imaginelifestyles.com/lux...lewis-hamilton

After Kimi (untouchable at first spot), I started liking this guy more and more lately.
He was the Stig, how could you not like him?
captainaudio commented:
April 13, 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I've been heel & toeing my BMWs for 14 years, it hasn't worn off. Lots of experts will say the same.
And a lot won't and I know a lot of experts.

CA
Elk commented:
April 13, 2013, 10:05 pm

+1

Truly accomplished track/ race drivers are interested in going fast. Heel and toe is merely a tool with no more thrill attached than putting on safety gear. They can do this in their sleep. If an AT tranny can do it better (it can) they are first in line to get one.
Chris90 commented:
April 14, 2013, 8:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
+1

Truly accomplished track/ race drivers are interested in going fast. Heel and toe is merely a tool with no more thrill attached than putting on safety gear. They can do this in their sleep. If an AT tranny can do it better (it can) they are first in line to get one.
If you're getting paid to race of course you want a DCT, but not true for amateurs. Look at all the Miata track cars.
Chris90 commented:
April 14, 2013, 8:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
And a lot won't and I know a lot of experts.

CA
So we agree its a matter of taste.
captainaudio commented:
April 14, 2013, 8:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
So we agree its a matter of taste.
Absolutely.

CA
Mark K commented:
April 14, 2013, 2:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
He was the Stig, how could you not like him?
Never heard Lewis drove as Stig before. Regardless, I didn't like his antics and his "path to success". He gained a lot of respect from me when he moved to Mercedes. It would have been even better if he moved away from both McLaren AND Mercedes, but this is still very good.
Elk commented:
April 14, 2013, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Never heard Lewis drove as Stig before. Regardless, I didn't like his antics and his "path to success".
As well as his incessant whining and blaming others for every issue.
MikeTerp commented:
July 2, 2013, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
I find the electronic dipstick very convenient. I'm glad BMW went this direction. I do not want to get my hands dirty checking the oil when driving a high end luxury car. It also tells me when its time to add 1 qt. of oil. How hard is that to do?

I think many people do not understand HOW TO USE the electronic dipstick so they think it sucks. You have to drive the car and let the oil warm up. Then you park it on a level surface and reset the system so it takes a fresh reading. Its like so many of you are stuck in the 80s or 90s or something. Technology is our friend. Embrace it.

This is the same whiney comparisons I hear all the time from people who want to row their own gears. Sure its fun and nostalgic, but I love the F1 factor and precise rev matched gear changes of SMG and DCT. And when you are tired after a long day or work or stuck in traffic, you put it in auto mode and sit back and enjoy the music or conversation. It doesn't make you any less of an enthusiast. But yet you hear all these "purist" say how they need a stick or the car isn't sporty enough. Give me a break.
You need to buy a Lexus. Would suit you and your personality quite well.
captainaudio commented:
July 2, 2013, 10:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTerp View Post
You need to buy a Lexus. Would suit you and your personality quite well.
You forgot to say that a Lexus is a re badged Toyota.

There is an unwritten rule here on Bimmerfest thatyou have to say that in all "Buy A Lexus" posts.

captainaudio commented:
July 2, 2013, 11:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT///M3 View Post
Well, you completely missed it. SMG/DCT are not your traditional automatic tranny's with torque converters so you cannot compare that experience to driving a slushbox. And that was my whole point in regards to the F1 experience.

Now, SMG/DCT can act like an auto tranny, but in no way can you compare their performance to one. I have heard good things about the new 8spd autobox but I won't comment until I get a chance to try one out at length.
Actually you can compare the performance of a modern AT to an SMG and a DCT. The 8 speed ZF in the F30 is a far superior transmission to the old BMW SMG, which in the words of a BMW engineer I spoke with was 'crap".

In the latest Road and Track Sam Posey tested a Porsche Boxster with a 7 speed dual clutch vs a a Jaguar F-Type with a ZF 8 speed "Slushbox". He stated that he was hard pressed to nail down which transmission he preferred.
Elk commented:
July 3, 2013, 9:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 8 speed ZF in the F30 is a far superior transmission to the old BMW SMG . . .
Having driven both I can attest this is true.

The more abrupt shifts of the SMG are amusing when driven hard however.
captainaudio commented:
July 3, 2013, 9:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Having driven both I can attest this is true.

The more abrupt shifts of the SMG are amusing when driven hard however.
The problem with the abrupt shifts of the SMG was that they could unsettle the car.


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Elk commented:
July 3, 2013, 10:08 am

Absolutely, especially mid-corner.

My guess is that many enjoy the bang of each shift however, especially in straight line acceleration.

The shifts are annoying when driving moderately, especially around town.
captainaudio commented:
July 3, 2013, 10:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Absolutely, especially mid-corner.

My guess is that many enjoy the bang of each shift however, especially in straight line acceleration.

The shifts are annoying when driving moderately, especially around town.
I think that the abrupt shifts give the impression of fast shifts to a lot of people. I spoke to Davy Jones at a Jaguar event and we were in an XKR-S with a ZF Automatic which shifted very fast and very smoothly. He mentioned that he had just tested a Lamborghini Aventador and felt that the transmission shifted too abruptly and unsettled the car.

Bottom line is smooth is fast and abrupt is slow.

CA


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Elk commented:
July 3, 2013, 11:51 am

Yes, a point which is often difficult for people to understand. Smooth rules in every respect.

Similarly, a car drifting through corners may look fast to many but is much slower than a cleanly driven machine.
Bratters123 commented:
July 3, 2013, 11:52 am

ZF is way better than SMG and on par with DCT as long as DCT as Hill Assist!


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