Don't do this - M3 Cliff Dive

by Bimmerfest.com Member - Supermax on June 11, 2013, 10:22 am


Wow. He didn't take the best line on that turn, did he?


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56 responses to Don't do this - M3 Cliff Dive

chiefneil commented:
June 11, 2013, 10:36 am

Ouch. Turned in a little too early or just plain overcooked it. I can feel the guy's panic when you see him cranking the wheel but the car's not turning. I've had one of those "oh crap" moments before but thankfully it was on a track with some runoff (stopped 3 feet short of a wall).

Wonder what type of car he was following?
captainaudio commented:
June 11, 2013, 10:47 am

The guy was probably driving with the DSC off, obviously was in way over his head and had no idea how to recover from an understeer situation.
Can't tell if he got off the throttle or hit the brakes.

CA
Supermax commented:
June 11, 2013, 10:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post

Wonder what type of car he was following?
I think it's a 335i coupe. I found the original video. The guy's got a lot of nasty comments lol.

But this does say a lot about BMW's safety. Apparently the guy's perfectly fine. Of course there's also a bunch of luck.
compsciguy01 commented:
June 11, 2013, 10:58 am

Just a little touch up paint and that car will look good as new.
Supermax commented:
June 11, 2013, 11:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The guy was probably driving with the DSC off, obviously was in way over his head and had no idea how to recover from an understeer situation.
Once he lost control right around :40-:41, what should he have done?

To me it seems that he just had too much speed to take that line. Should have started all the way to the left...but of course going around a bend on a public road....also not the best idea.

If you were in his position at :40, what would you do?
captainaudio commented:
June 11, 2013, 11:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
Once he lost control right around :40-:41, what should he have done?

To me it seems that he just had too much speed to take that line. Should have started all the way to the left...but of course going around a bend on a public road....also not the best idea.

If you were in his position at :40, what would you do?
Once you turn the wheel and the car does not turn turning it more will not help. To regain control he would have needed to straighten the wheel out (in other words turn to the left) to get the car back under control.

And of course there is the possibility that he just was carrying too much speed and ran out of road but what he did at :40 shows that he had limited car control skills and should not have been driving with the nannies off.


CA
chiefneil commented:
June 11, 2013, 11:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
Once he lost control right around :40-:41, what should he have done?

To me it seems that he just had too much speed to take that line. Should have started all the way to the left...but of course going around a bend on a public road....also not the best idea.

If you were in his position at :40, what would you do?
Touch of brake to bring the tail around and give the front wheels some bite, lightly back on the gas once the car is pointing in the right direction, straighten up the wheel without countersteering too far, and either drift sideways off the cliff if you're truly going too fast or count your lucky stars as the tires hook up.

It takes a little practice to make it a reflex - I'd highly recommend some BMW CCA safety schools and track events for anybody that's never done them. I
captainaudio commented:
June 11, 2013, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
Once he lost control right around :40-:41, what should he have done?

To me it seems that he just had too much speed to take that line. Should have started all the way to the left...but of course going around a bend on a public road....also not the best idea.

If you were in his position at :40, what would you do?
Once you turn the wheel and the car does not turn turning it more will not help. To regain control he would have needed to straighten the wheel out (in other words turn to the left) to get the car back under control.

And of course there is the possibility that he just was carrying too much speed and ran out of road but what he did at :40 shows that he had limited car control skills and should not have been driving with the nannies off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shwgNV36xFA


CA
jjrandorin commented:
June 11, 2013, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
I think it's a 335i coupe. I found the original video. The guy's got a lot of nasty comments lol.

But this does say a lot about BMW's safety. Apparently the guy's perfectly fine. Of course there's also a bunch of luck.
Thats what I thought, watching the video. "Man, looks like he walked away from that and took pictures of his totaled car"
beden1 commented:
June 11, 2013, 12:14 pm

I really didn't like the way he was following the road throughout his drive. Obviously going too fast for conditions, especially on a narrow winding mountainside road that he didn't seem too familar with.

I'm not sure he would have had enough time to correct the car before losing control. He should have controlled the car better for the conditions before he got into trouble.
Al Bundy commented:
June 11, 2013, 12:23 pm

That video displeases me greatly
07 E63650i commented:
June 11, 2013, 12:29 pm

I hope that the driver is okay. From what I saw, he underestimated the curve and understeered.


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JoeFromPA commented:
June 11, 2013, 12:41 pm

That video pisses me off as someone who enjoys bombing alot of back roads.

He appears unfamiliar with the road and enters a blind curve, HOT, with a CLIFF on the other side? wtf? without stablity control on?

You don't go into a blind curve on the inside lane with excess speed on a public road. Not ever. You have no room to correct yourself in the turn.

You don't go hot into curves on a roadway with cliffs on one side when you aren't familiar with the road. Not ever.

You don't turn DSC off on unfamiliar roads with cliffs on one side. DSC off is to allow instability. You don't turn it off with cliffs around when you aren't really familiar with the road. Ever.

...

The guy is lucky to be alive. Those rocks could have easily taken out the driver's side altogether. He also deserves to have any insurance claim denied - he should eat the $20-30k cost of that car.
furby076 commented:
June 11, 2013, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by compsciguy01 View Post
Just a little touch up paint and that car will look good as new.
Carfax -"Minor collision. Touch up paint. Good as new"

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I really didn't like the way he was following the road throughout his drive. Obviously going too fast for conditions, especially on a narrow winding mountainside road that he didn't seem too familar with.

I'm not sure he would have had enough time to correct the car before losing control. He should have controlled the car better for the conditions before he got into trouble.
He was not familiar with the road (based on his driving) and definitely was trying to play catch up with the guy in front of him...he was swaying too much before the last turn.

Would love to see the original thread with the comments.
Db750 commented:
June 11, 2013, 1:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Would love to see the original thread with the comments.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=851390

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408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 1:55 pm

What a moron, killing a great car like that. I'm surprised he didn't scream like a little girl at the end there...would've made for a better video.
Picky commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:01 pm

lol.... you guys don't seem to care about the driver. Anyway, did the driver survive?
408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picky View Post
lol.... you guys don't seem to care about the driver....
Correct. Because clean E46 M3s are getting rarer and rarer while idiots who can't properly drive are not.
chiefneil commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picky View Post
lol.... you guys don't seem to care about the driver. Anyway, did the driver survive?
The driver's fine. And people probably don't much care about the driver because he willingly made the choices that resulted in the crash while putting other innocent drivers at risk.
pilotman commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:37 pm

would this be considered power understeer?

I watched that old school handling video, very cool.

I couldn't make out both explanations for correction though.

Missed the first one. The second is, in severe circumstances, to dramatically lift off the throttle....?

What was the first suggestion?

I suppose there are a lot variables and remedies can vary....

tap brakes (assuming of course your understeer isn't caused by overbraking)...

or turning into wider path, i.e. turning into the skid (instead of turning steering wheel in opposite direction to counteract typical power oversteer)

This guy probably couldn't have corrected because he didn't have enough road to turn into the skid and/or lift off throttle.
Supermax commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:40 pm

Thanks for the feedback, CA and others.

Another thing to note is that the E92 335i in front of him got through that turn just fine. Clearly this proves that 335i's are better than M3's.
HokieXDriver commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:43 pm

I think it's ironic that he was trapped by understeer. The natural reaction to understeer is the correct one: oh crap, then let go of the gas. This is why most street cars are built to understeer rather than oversteer. Oversteer recovery is more complex.

Anyway, nobody should be driving like this on public roads. Race drivers do not even drive like this on tracks they have never driven on. It takes many laps to know the relationship between the track and your particular car. As in most other aspects of life, instant gratification rarely pays off.
thegandalf commented:
June 11, 2013, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Carfax -"Minor collision. Touch up paint. Good as new"



He was not familiar with the road (based on his driving) and definitely was trying to play catch up with the guy in front of him...he was swaying too much before the last turn.

Would love to see the original thread with the comments.
The driver in front of him seemed to know a lot better what he was doing (and also the road), as he was pulling farther and farther a way, you can see how he did brake before entering that bend.

From what I am reading, the guy survived? It was clearly not his day to go then. I hope he learned his lesson, next time he might not be as lucky.

And oh, yes: What a waste of a great car!
408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:01 pm

chiefneil commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
would this be considered power understeer?

I watched that old school handling video, very cool.

I couldn't make out both explanations for correction though.

Missed the first one. The second is, in severe circumstances, to dramatically lift off the throttle....?

What was the first suggestion?

I suppose there are a lot variables and remedies can vary....

tap brakes (assuming of course your understeer isn't caused by overbraking)...

or turning into wider path, i.e. turning into the skid (instead of turning steering wheel in opposite direction to counteract typical power oversteer)

This guy probably couldn't have corrected because he didn't have enough road to turn into the skid and/or lift off throttle.
Understeer is casued by insufficient traction on the front wheels. To regain traction in front, you need to transfer weight from the rear to the front by either reducing throttle or using the brakes, depending on how much weight transfer you need. This has the side-effect of reducing weight on the rear wheels, which may lose traction as a result and swing around (e.g. the infamous porsche 911 trailing throttle oversteer).

However your front tires may have found grip by this time, allowing you to counter steer back into the line. Now you need to plant the rear tires again, and you do so by getting back on the gas (or just let up on the brakes) to transfer weight back to the rear.

That's all in an ideal situation and happens in just a second or two. In the video you can see the driver frantically trying to steer deeper into the turn so he obviously had some time to react, his reaction was just completely wrong. He was probably too hot and would've gone over anyway, but his buddy made it through the turn so there's a chance he could've saved it if he knew what he was doing.

Again, everybody should join the BMW CCA and attend a safety school or track event where they'll go into this stuff in detail and you can practice in a safe and controlled environment with an instructor in the passenger seat.
Ultimate_drivin commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:11 pm

He probably had some cheap tires none brand and maybe even cheap stupid rims like all
Posers do that's the conclusion of cheap tires and wheels on bmw just to show of to the public he should of bought mb and put wheels and tires and drive around the city showing off
chris328 commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:11 pm

he started cornering too early, should have come in wider and later.
JoeFromPA commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
Thanks for the feedback, CA and others.

Another thing to note is that the E92 335i in front of him got through that turn just fine. Clearly this proves that 335i's are better than M3's.
IIRC, the e90 335i was as fast as most e46 m3's factory vs. factory when driven by professional drivers.

I think the even bigger difference was that the 335i handled inexpert drivers well and allowed them to achieve really significant speeds (and carry them through turns) more than the e46 m3 allowed the same inexpert driver to do...

Today people often think of "driver's cars" as relating to steering feel, brake pedal feel, etc.

But the longer lasting definition is a car that requires a real driver to make it perform. Like the older (pre 99) 911's. I think the e46 m3 falls into that category too.
408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
IIRC, the e90 335i was as fast as most e46 m3's factory vs. factory when driven by professional drivers.
Or consistently faster in a straight line in the hands of inexperienced drivers who can't deal with 3 pedals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
But the longer lasting definition is a car that requires a real driver to make it perform. Like the older (pre 99) 911's. I think the e46 m3 falls into that category too.
Actually, I think the E46 M3 is very accessible and can lead to overconfidence. Many an owner have often praised their car along the lines of "She makes me feel like Senna...."
rgk330i commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:41 pm

I was impressed by the early side airbag deployment -- there was no impact yet, but the accelerometers and the steering angle sensor disagreed enough that they figured one was coming quick. Regardless of driving skills, good engineering saved another life.
captainaudio commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Understeer is casued by insufficient traction on the front wheels. To regain traction in front, you need to transfer weight from the rear to the front by either reducing throttle or using the brakes, depending on how much weight transfer you need. This has the side-effect of reducing weight on the rear wheels, which may lose traction as a result and swing around (e.g. the infamous porsche 911 trailing throttle oversteer).

However your front tires may have found grip by this time, allowing you to counter steer back into the line. Now you need to plant the rear tires again, and you do so by getting back on the gas (or just let up on the brakes) to transfer weight back to the rear.

That's all in an ideal situation and happens in just a second or two. In the video you can see the driver frantically trying to steer deeper into the turn so he obviously had some time to react, his reaction was just completely wrong. He was probably too hot and would've gone over anyway, but his buddy made it through the turn so there's a chance he could've saved it if he knew what he was doing.

Again, everybody should join the BMW CCA and attend a safety school or track event where they'll go into this stuff in detail and you can practice in a safe and controlled environment with an instructor in the passenger seat.
Once the car started to plow he needed to "give back" some steering (in other words straighten the wheel) to regain grip and to get the tires rolling. By turning the wheel more he made matters worse.

CA
SergioK commented:
June 11, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Again, everybody should join the BMW CCA and attend a safety school or track event where they'll go into this stuff in detail and you can practice in a safe and controlled environment with an instructor in the passenger seat.
Shameless plug....

http://msreg.us/bmwccalasmmr

After last Friday's very sucessful and VERY fun driving school at Buttonwillow I can attest that the F30 is a hoot(!) to drive on a racetrack, even with RFTs!!! Yes, we may all hate these tires, but they can still hold up for an entire session.
Inline Sixer commented:
June 11, 2013, 4:08 pm

The whole car can be rebuilt by replacing the BMW enginge with a Camaro V8 engine, and the BMW body replaced with a Camaro body...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=camaro+engine
JoeFromPA commented:
June 11, 2013, 4:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgk330i View Post
I was impressed by the early side airbag deployment -- there was no impact yet, but the accelerometers and the steering angle sensor disagreed enough that they figured one was coming quick. Regardless of driving skills, good engineering saved another life.
I could be wrong but I believe they deployed when the car was traveling at high speed and began tilting quickly. I think the car sensed it was flipping over. Could be wrong.

I agree though - i really thought I was watching someone pass away when viewing the video. The fact he walked away is just ridiculous. Flying over a cliff at significant speed, sideways, is a recipe for at least an emergency heli-vac usually...
JoeFromPA commented:
June 11, 2013, 4:33 pm

Btw, i looked closely at those tires and don't really see any dominant lettering on the sidewall. I don't recognize them and I tend to recognize street tires.

Also, either their tread is gone or they are a DOT race tire. Not really sure which quite frankly.
solstice commented:
June 11, 2013, 4:35 pm

1. No racing on public roads.
2. No racing on public roads.
3. Safety of others above all. Ensure control at blind spots ( curves, hills etc ). I could have met those morons on my Ducati.
4. Have fun but never test the limits of your skills on public roads ( not the same as limits of the car ).
5. No racing on public roads.

You can enjoy your vehicles to the full potential while keeping these rules. I have for almost 30 years.
408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 4:56 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=RiAka1_6ZVQ
furby076 commented:
June 11, 2013, 5:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Where did you get that internet meme? It seems like you found a place that will make them on demand?
408Racer commented:
June 11, 2013, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Where did you get that internet meme? It seems like you found a place that will make them on demand?
Stole it from this thread.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-footage/page7

3ismagic# commented:
June 11, 2013, 5:54 pm

What a numbskull.
coco135 commented:
June 11, 2013, 8:07 pm

was it a total loss? or maybe a good detailer can work it out?
Thyrilumi commented:
June 12, 2013, 9:51 am

This guy definitely deserves to have his insurance claim denied. What an idiot. What if there was an oncoming car? He would've slammed straight into them.
Mark K commented:
June 12, 2013, 5:00 pm

Nothing will get you as a blind, decreasing radius corner. Everything else was just extra toppings on already made pizza:

- carrying WAY too much speed on turn-in,
- inexperience (not knowing the road),
- disabled nannies,
- following what "the other guy" is doing regardless of the fact/early warning that he had when crossing the middle line while the other car managed to stay in his lane,
- unprotected-by-guard-rail cliff,
- probably lack of driving skills (I'm hardly Lewis Hamilton so I can't judge definitively on that)

I bet he would have rather found himself under the steer instead CA, you still have those images?
captainaudio commented:
June 12, 2013, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post

I bet he would have rather found himself under the steer instead CA, you still have those images?
Understeer and Oversteer explained.



Under Steer


Over Steer



CA
chiefneil commented:
June 12, 2013, 5:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Understeer and Oversteer explained.
I've also heard it described this way:

Understeer is when the driver craps his pants
Oversteer is when the passenger craps his pants

kc1953 commented:
June 12, 2013, 6:25 pm

I hope the driver was ok.
quackbury commented:
June 12, 2013, 8:30 pm

3 comments.

I am amazed by the durability of the Go Pro mount.

I am more amazed by the stupidity of posting the vid on YouTube, thereby eliminating any chance of filing an insurance claim, or defending himself from multiple Moving Vehicle Violation charges. Not only he out the cost of the car, but if there is any justice he's lost his license for the next 200 years.

I am frankly disappointed that the dumbazz lived. It would have been better for mankind if his DNA had been permanently removed from the gene pool.


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xx commented:
June 12, 2013, 10:20 pm

Yeah we know he went in too hot and the line wasn't ideal.
(We can see sharp turns on the navi/map when unsure of the road ahead. The first car probably read it better.)
enigma commented:
June 13, 2013, 3:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
I think it's a 335i coupe. I found the original video. The guy's got a lot of nasty comments lol.

But this does say a lot about BMW's safety. Apparently the guy's perfectly fine. Of course there's also a bunch of luck.
It was an e46 M3. There were plenty of clues (like the thread title and the video itself).


Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Once you turn the wheel and the car does not turn turning it more will not help. To regain control he would have needed to straighten the wheel out (in other words turn to the left) to get the car back under control.

And of course there is the possibility that he just was carrying too much speed and ran out of road but what he did at :40 shows that he had limited car control skills and should not have been driving with the nannies off.
Counter-steering isn't the most natural/intuitive thing to do for inexperienced drivers, especially when faced with a cliff. Based on the video, I think he approached the bend too hot and ran out of road and no amount of correction would have helped him recover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Picky View Post
lol.... you guys don't seem to care about the driver. Anyway, did the driver survive?
You must be kidding me. He was an idiot to not only endanger his own life, but lives of innocent bystanders that may have been killed if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. He had no business driving on the wrong side of the public road. If the accident didn't kill him, he should've had his license revoked.
bmw_or_audi commented:
June 13, 2013, 5:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
would this be considered power understeer?
Just plain understeer I would think. Despite what so many folks claim, cars like the 3 are tuned to understeer despite being RWD.

It looks to me like he steered way too abruptly and lost front grip. I don't know if it was recoverable, but his steering reaction of steering even more was clearly the wrong thing to do. Of source, it is much easier to say what he should have done while watching the video than doing it while driving. But he was clearly being reckless by crossing over the double yellow so many times, and just steering with arms extended so far out is scary.
408Racer commented:
June 13, 2013, 12:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
It was an e46 M3. There were plenty of clues (like the thread title and the video itself)....
I think they were referring to the lead car. It's a known fact that 335 drivers have more skilz than M3 drivers.
408Racer commented:
June 13, 2013, 12:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Just plain understeer I would think. Despite what so many folks claim, cars like the 3 are tuned to understeer despite being RWD....
That is correct. The more neutral 3's are the ones with the square setups...staggered wheels may look cool but they do bake in the understeer.
BMWSalesGuyFL commented:
June 13, 2013, 9:36 pm

By the time he started losing control, the line he was taking and at the speed he was going, there was no chance of even a professional keeping that car on the road. He completely underestimated the degree of the turn.
captainaudio commented:
June 13, 2013, 9:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWSalesGuyFL View Post
By the time he started losing control, the line he was taking and at the speed he was going, there was no chance of even a professional keeping that car on the road. He completely underestimated the degree of the turn.
We really don't know how close to the limits of grip he was and there is no way to tell from the video. What is clear is that he was in over his head,

CA
HokieXDriver commented:
June 14, 2013, 12:06 am

This is why track days were invented. Learn how to recover a car, and learn what the car's limits and more important, your own limits are. Finally, get the need for speed out of your blood so you don't drive like this on public roads.

Imagine if a motorcycle or a bicycle were coming down the hill when he went over. He would have taken the rider with him and there would have been no airbags or seat belts for that unfortunate person.
BMWSalesGuyFL commented:
June 14, 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
We really don't know how close to the limits of grip he was and there is no way to tell from the video. What is clear is that he was in over his head,

CA
Agreed. Could have been sandy for all we know.

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