Road and Track Battle: BMW 328i (E90) vs. BMW 328i (F30)

by Bimmerfest.com Member - -=Hot|Ice=- on July 5, 2013, 6:43 pm



Quote:
Progress is often a compromise. In the case of the BMW 3-series, that compromise is between the "sport" and "sedan" sides of the car's personality: quick reflexes and driver feedback versus comfort, speed, and isolation. While it's no secret that the Three is an industry standard-most carmakers willingly admit to using it as the sport-sedan benchmark-the gap between BMW and its competition has never been smaller.

So why are we looking at two BMWs? Because their differences are telling. First, the nameplate that everyone once loved is still amazing but no longer as universally adored, and a lot of people are wondering why. Second, if you examine where the 3-series is going, you learn something about the industry that follows it.


Marc Urbano
The maroon car here is a 2008 328i-six cylinders, 230 hp. Its basic shell, known as the E90 chassis, was sold from 2006Ė2011. The red one is a 2012 328i-four cylinders, 240 hp, Sport package (a necessity, as the standard 328i suspension is Camry-cushy). Its platform, designated F30, debuted for 2012. Both of our test cars have manual transmissions, because duh. We decided against the 335i because the 328i is BMW's volume model, and besides, it's the one we'd buy with our own money. Also, the model's recent switch to a four-cylinder pays enormous dividends in EPA fuel-economy testing. More on that later.

It's obvious that these are similar cars. The F30 is prettier, especially next to this pre-face-lift E90, with the latter's milk-mustache grille and awkward taillights. The new Three's extra length pays off in a roomier back seat. Then again, we piled four six-footers into the E90, and each was comfortable enough to spend an hour or two in the car. To what end that extra space?


Our old 328i's base seat and steering wheel aren't as comfortable as this new car's sport-package setup, but all of its interior materials feel a full class more expensive than the new car's. And that's everywhere, from the switchgear to the center console to the glove box. In back, the difference is more pronounced, where the new car feels rental-car grade. Its trunk space is bigger on paper but no more usable.

On rough roads, the F30 Sport-pack rides better than the non-Sport E90, likely thanks to its adaptive suspension. The F30 also seems quieter at first, but the racket transmitted from front-end bumps is surprising, and at highway speeds, the sunroof produces too much wind noise to leave open. Neither is a problem on the old car.


The new car's electrically assisted power steering is quite good (and, thanks to software updates, will likely get better), but it's not great, and when it occasionally communicates what the chassis is doing, it tells you what just happened. The E90's hydraulic steering, by contrast, tells you what's about to happen. That's an important distinction as you're approaching the limits of a car's suspension: "Dude, you're sideways" is a different thing from "Don't feed in any more throttle, because your rear tires are about to break traction."

So far, it's a toss-up. But then we come to the engine. The E90's musical straight-six dominates the experience from the second you start it, the cabin buzzing with excitement from idle to redline. You feel the engine's subtle vibes in the shifter and row the gears just for the fun of it.

That just doesn't happen in the F30. BMW's N20 is an extraordinarily well-behaved turbo four, but even the best four can't compete with a world-class six. The Bavarians wisely isolated the cabin from the four-cylinder's noise and vibration, but the resulting disconnect turns this BMW into more of a BmW. Motor is no longer this car's true middle name. The four is acoustically absent under 6000 rpm, then comes alive with a satisfying, purposeful snarl, albeit one that only lasts for a thousand revs. With the acoustic reward largely absent, you find yourself keeping rpm low and riding the wave of turbo torque.

In terms of real-world speed, the two cars are evenly matched, posting identical results on the 5-to-60-mph rolling-start test, where the naturally aspirated six's instant response beats the four's turbo lag. On the conventional 0Ė60 run, the more powerful four-banger is 0.4 second quicker-and as speeds increase, the new car pulls ever farther ahead. Add to that its enormous 6-mpg EPA-combined-rating bonus, and it seems like the downsized turbo engine, with its direct injection and auto stop/start system, finally pulls a big lead on the old car.

Not so fast. In real-world driving, we observed a gain of less than 1.5 mpg. At that rate, all of the new car's expensive technology would save a tank (roughly 17.5 gallons) of fuel every 10,000 miles. Is that trade-off worth it?

Nope. Our decision was unanimous: We liked the old car better, if only by a slight margin. And later, when we hopped into a post-face-lift, Sport-package-equipped E90 328i, it was game over for the F30. No contest.

As a premium luxury vehicle with all manner of tech gizmos, the new 328i might equal-or better-the old. But for driving enthusiasts, the E90 remains the benchmark. The F30 might be bigger and prettier, but to us, it's not necessarily better.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...i-65-1-roa0813


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253 responses to Road and Track Battle: BMW 328i (E90) vs. BMW 328i (F30)

Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 5, 2013, 6:52 pm

You have now posted this twice in the last few minutes despite it being posted by others in other threads and someone posted the exact same topic a few down from this one.

This begins to appear troll'ish.
KLC commented:
July 5, 2013, 7:23 pm

I thought we had all moved past the " 'insert car here' is better than the f30!" phase?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 5, 2013, 7:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You have now posted this twice in the last few minutes despite it being posted by others in other threads and someone posted the exact same topic a few down from this one.

This begins to appear troll'ish.
Because I'm a troll.
Db750 commented:
July 5, 2013, 7:37 pm

Interesting read. Thanks for posting.
krash commented:
July 5, 2013, 7:41 pm

Cool. We needed another thread comparing the E90 to the F30. We also need another E90 owner trolling on the F30 forum.
Nordique commented:
July 5, 2013, 11:22 pm

Since I was driving a 2003 E46 325i, sport package, 5-speed, for 150,000 miles, I compared it to what I wanted to buy, a 2013 F30 320i, sport package, 6-speed, and I've been delighted from mile ten on the odometer. It had nine miles on the odo when I picked it up. No comparison, really. BNW knows what they are doing!
tturedraider commented:
July 5, 2013, 11:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Since I was driving a 2003 E46 325i, sport package, 5-speed, for 150,000 miles, I compared it to what I wanted to buy, a 2013 F30 320i, sport package, 6-speed, and I've been delighted from mile ten on the odometer. It had nine miles on the odo when I picked it up. No comparison, really. BNW knows what they are doing!
No way! That can't possibly be true. You haven't been paying close enough attention to the many posts in the F30 forum.
openwheelracing commented:
July 6, 2013, 12:24 am

yeah this article is not helping me LOL

My LCI E90 lease is almost up, and I am seriously debating whether to keep it or lease a 320i. Normally I would lease a new model, but the E90 imho is still better. I test drove 328i M Pack with Sport Auto and although it was fantastic, I still prefer the hydraulic steering. If they put the 8 speed ZF inside LCI E90 there would be no contest imho.
Elk commented:
July 6, 2013, 9:55 am

^

Then it is an easy decision, keep the car and stop shopping.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 6, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Cool. We needed another thread comparing the E90 to the F30. We also need another E90 owner trolling on the F30 forum.
No, I think we still need more.

Also, funny that only on the BMW forums will BMW owners bash any new chassis when theirs becomes outdated.
Bratters123 commented:
July 6, 2013, 10:32 am

Chassis Envy.


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Al Bundy commented:
July 6, 2013, 12:36 pm

I6 for life!
Bratters123 commented:
July 6, 2013, 3:35 pm

Once 2 & 3 year old CPO F30's become affordable to the F30 knockers they will all mysteriously disappear.


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 6, 2013, 5:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Once 2 & 3 year old CPO F30's become affordable to the F30 knockers they will all mysteriously disappear.


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I don't think price has anything to do with it. I could of bought 2 F30's with the price I paid for my M3. It's that BMW screwed up the BMW 'feel' and is now trying to be what Lexus used to be.
Bratters123 commented:
July 6, 2013, 5:59 pm

From your comments sounds like an M3 was wasted on you.


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RobertaZ commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:02 pm

I figure that I should be a pretty good judge (albeit, biased) as I currently own an E90 and an F30.

So there......
Bratters123 commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:09 pm

Whoop di deee.

Having both models does not make you a good judge if you don't what your talking about!


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
From your comments sounds like an M3 was wasted on you.


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What are you, 15 years old? 16? Did mommy and daddy buy you your car? Wish you could afford an M3, but can't? Work hard, and you'll be able to afford one. Learn some manners. You're a very rude human being. Onto the ignore list. No time for people like you. You belong on the other forum, not here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
I figure that I should be a pretty good judge (albeit, biased) as I currently own an E90 and an F30.

So there......
I'd like to hear how you feel. I have had extensive time behind both vehicles.
PK2348 commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Whoop di deee.

Having both models does not make you a good judge if you don't what your talking about!


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r u a troll?
minn19 commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:46 pm

Can somebody explain to me how it is possible that the F30 goes 0-100 in 14.4 vs E90 at 16.4. Then the 1/4 mile speed is F30 14.3 @ 100 mph and the E90 is 14.7 @ 96 mph. How can the F30 be two seconds faster than the E90 in the 0-100 and then only .4 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile at almost the same mph as the 0-100 test. What am I missing? How is this possible? I know testing can be finicky, but this big of a discrepancy?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
I figure that I should be a pretty good judge (albeit, biased) as I currently own an E90 and an F30.

So there......
Not if you are not sharing the specifics.

Tires are the single largest component affecting braking performance. If you have square 225 all seasons on your F30 and wider/grippier tires on the E90-that right there ruins the comparison. The F30 is saddled 9x out of 10 with LOW ROLLING RESISTANCE tires from the factory. Great for MPG, not much else.

The other factor is the pads. The Sport/Base/Lux, all have low dust pads. But they also give up initial bite which really affects confidence. The MSport has standard Euro pads, more confidence but tons of dust. I have seen 2-3 mag tests now of MSports and they do not complain of braking and have shown 108-109ft from 60, a great result. But I did see a test of non MSport pads and all season tires in 225's that mention a very unBMW like long stopping distance from 70-0.

Facts...The cars have not really increased in weight from the E90 and brake components are just as large. If you have a poor braking F30 compared to your E90, it's in the pads and tires. Blame it on everyone's obsession with MPG and god forbid needing to clean your wheels.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 6, 2013, 6:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Can somebody explain to me how it is possible that the F30 goes 0-100 in 14.4 vs E90 at 16.4. Then the 1/4 mile speed is F30 14.3 @ 100 mph and the E90 is 14.7 @ 96 mph. How can the F30 be two seconds faster than the E90 in the 0-100 and then only .4 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile at almost the same mph as the 0-100 test. What am I missing? How is this possible? I know testing can be finicky, but this big of a discrepancy?
Look at the numbers.

0-100 is not the same as 1/4 mile.

The F30 just so happens to his 100mph in the 1/4, but the E90 did not. So it takes an E90 longer to hit 100mph than it does to hit 1/4 mile.

Make more sense now?

The oddity is how can the F30 do 0-100 in 14.4 but take 14.3 to hit 100 in the 1/4, that means their numbers are a bit off. Those two should be the same. It should 0-100 in 14.3 and 1/4 of 14.3@100.
minn19 commented:
July 6, 2013, 7:08 pm

I think I get it, but how can the E90 make up so much time in the 1/4 mile? If it takes it 16.4 to get to 100 mph in one test, how can it get to 96 mph in the 1/4 mile so much faster? I know my math may be fuzzy, but it seems like it is getting to 96 mph almost 1.5 seconds faster in this test? I can't wrap my head around the discrepancy, both tests are basically 0-100 drag races no?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 6, 2013, 7:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I think I get it, but how can the E90 make up so much time in the 1/4 mile? If it takes it 16.4 to get to 100 mph in one test, how can it get to 96 mph in the 1/4 mile so much faster? I know my math may be fuzzy, but it seems like it is getting to 96 mph almost 1.5 seconds faster in this test? I can't wrap my head around the discrepancy, both tests are basically 0-100 drag races no?
It's in the gearing. The gearing is well matched to the E90's powertrain and so it crosses the 1320 in a decent time of under 15 seconds. But it takes a fair bit longer to reach 100mph, this may not only be gearing, but the gearing itself might require an additional shift to reach 100mph that the F30 does not.
Elk commented:
July 6, 2013, 8:01 pm

The data is also clearly from different runs. Runs from different locations, conditions, tracks, etc. are not directly comparable.

As already pointed out, distance/time is additionally very different from speed/time.

Finally, the E90 may have hooked up very well in its 1/4 run. If the E90's initial distance traveled is a good amount quicker at the beginning of the 1/4 this translates into surprisingly faster total elapsed time over distance. In this circumstance the faster car catches up and overtakes it, but the better hooked up car will make a very impressive showing. This is one reason why trap speed is the best indicator of power being put to the rear wheels by a car, not elapsed 1/4 mile time. It is a bit counter-intuitive.
minn19 commented:
July 6, 2013, 8:35 pm

I'm a noob when it comes to drag racing and how tests are setup. I understand that testing can vary widely depending on conditions and other factors. The data just looked really off to me between those two tests. Thanks for the explanations guys.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 6, 2013, 9:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
The data is also clearly from different runs. Runs from different locations, conditions, tracks, etc. are not directly comparable.

As already pointed out, distance/time is additionally very different from speed/time.

Finally, the E90 may have hooked up very well in its 1/4 run. If the E90's initial distance traveled is a good amount quicker at the beginning of the 1/4 this translates into surprisingly faster total elapsed time over distance. In this circumstance the faster car catches up and overtakes it, but the better hooked up car will make a very impressive showing. This is one reason why trap speed is the best indicator of power being put to the rear wheels by a car, not elapsed 1/4 mile time. It is a bit counter-intuitive.
Yep, for example other F30 328s, such as some 8spd autos had quicker ETs at 13.8-13.9 but with much lower traps of 98mph. That indicates as you said, a car that is better hooking up as wheel spin has a way of inflating trap speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm a noob when it comes to drag racing and how tests are setup. I understand that testing can vary widely depending on conditions and other factors. The data just looked really off to me between those two tests. Thanks for the explanations guys.
Drag racing is very interesting-at first. It gets boring real quick lol.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 7, 2013, 2:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Yep, for example other F30 328s, such as some 8spd autos had quicker ETs at 13.8-13.9 but with much lower traps of 98mph. That indicates as you said, a car that is better hooking up as wheel spin has a way of inflating trap speeds.



Drag racing is very interesting-at first. It gets boring real quick lol.
It just seems it's not hard to go fast in a straight line. I'd get bored after 5 minutes.
Bratters123 commented:
July 7, 2013, 4:15 am

2 E46 M3's

1 E90 M Sport 6MT

1 E92 M Sport 6MT

F30 330d M Sport

Berk! As soon as you play the I have an M3 card you think it automatically gives you credibility on the F30 forum.


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av98 commented:
July 7, 2013, 6:54 am

Is there something new to this article we already didn't know on non-M sport F30s? This sounds like a dead horse and we already know how to improve the F30 to old model levels- BMW M performance products


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 7, 2013, 10:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It just seems it's not hard to go fast in a straight line. I'd get bored after 5 minutes.
There actually is a fair amount to it, a lot of variables involved. Basically if you have a car capable of 13.5, it takes very little skill to get to 13.8-14.5 lets say. But getting to that 13.5 and or beating it, you have to align a large variety of factors.

I bracket raced for a bit as a kid, it was kind of fun. But when I got good at it(could nail off a perfect RT and stay around there for the entire day) it got real boring to run within a tenth of my dial in for 30 passes. But it put money and trophies in the car which bought more mods. At 18, it was a pretty cool thing. But about the same time I became obsessed with adjustable suspensions, poly bushings, and auto-x'ing. Much more interesting.
dalekressin commented:
July 7, 2013, 10:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
^

Then it is an easy decision, keep the car and stop shopping.
yep
Elk commented:
July 7, 2013, 1:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
There actually is a fair amount to it, a lot of variables involved.
I am a road racer type, not drag racer I learned to respect the skills of drag racers after trying a dozen or so runs. As with many things, it is harder than it looks. Dragging a high horsepower car is not mash the throttle an hang on.

Quote:
I bracket raced for a bit as a kid, it was kind of fun.
No one can beat a 16 year old girl and her 2000 Civic AT when bracket racing. Teenagers are machines when it comes to RT.
RobertaZ commented:
July 7, 2013, 10:00 pm

[QUOTE=-=Hot|Ice=-;7694401

(re: current owner of both E90 and F30)

I'd like to hear how you feel. I have had extensive time behind both vehicles.[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I am disappointed with the F30. I've had it for two months now and put on about 2,400 miles, including one 670 mile highway trip.

The F30 rides very nicely and is more forgiving over road imperfections. The stereo is a definite improvement over the E90 stereo - my favourite feature being that it can play WAV files from USB flash drives). I won't make any comments about esthetics, as I'll choose performance over styling any day and don't really give a hoot about car shape, light shape, new headlights, etc., etc.

My E90 and F30 are both equipped with optional sports suspension ($1,500 and $400 respectively) and the E90 has the Luxury package as well. I guess I should not have expected a $400 suspension mod to perform as well as a $1,500 one. My guess is that the latter purchase was likely just a lowering of the vehicle, whereas the former more likely included performance shocks &/or springs &/or sway bars. There is absolutely no comparison in terms of handling. My E90 can take street corners at wonderful speeds with virtually no lean and I usually accelerate into corners just for the fun of it. I've had to slow the F30 down around the same corners as it simply does not handle as well. It does not have the road feel that the E90 does and if I had to compare it to another vehicle, I'd say that its road feel is similar to that of a Lexus ES 350, a car that almost put me to sleep when I test drove it a few years ago.

The fit and finish is excellent and definitely a step above the E90. I'd rate the stock E90 stereo as a 3/10 (I'm very fussy) and the F30 at 5-6/30, so definitely an improvement. I upgrade all of my cars' stereos, so I am basing this observation on memory. I like the remote's trunk opening feature, but couldn't BMW have included a closing feature as is evident on the X3 (oops...straying from the topic)?

I am searching for a solution to the handling issues and will hopefully get that resolved shortly. Whether it's going to be tires, shocks, springs or sway bars, I don't know. BMW offered to put in the M suspension (shocks and springs) for a mere $4,000......that ain't gonna happen, but I will keep on reading this forum and hopefully come up with a definitive solution (or improvement) for significantly less than that.

Gas consumption (Imperial gallons): The E90 averages 25 MPG in the city and 35-37 MPG on the highway. The F30 gets 29 MPG in the city and well over 40 MPG on the highway. I drove 335 highway miles recently in ECO mode at 120 km/hr. (74.57 MPH) with the A/C on and the Stop/Start feature disabled. I got an amazing 47 MPG! I have no complaints about that!

I hope that I've been of help....

Roberta
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 7, 2013, 10:11 pm

^I sill want to know what the wheels/tires and suspension setup is like between the two cars of yours. Your CDN F30 is a bit different than what we are offered in the US, such as your $400 sport suspension, I want to figure out what you have.
kkapdolee commented:
July 8, 2013, 2:07 am

Sounds like trolls are fighting each other in this thread.


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hans007 commented:
July 8, 2013, 8:25 am

i've driven a few E90s, and I think the only real advantage is the steering is a little better. I don't think its even a lot better like these magazines keep saying.

but they write these articles just to get views. all around the F30 is better at almost everything. the new engine is much more powerful. the torque alone makes it feel a lot more powerful.

And i think they are smoking crack when they are talking about the interior. the F30 interior is much much better than the E90 interior. I remember getting into a friends 2006 325i e90 which was the first year it came out, and most of us were like, wow this car drives a lot better than our cars, but this interior is not "luxury" ( i was driving a TSX at the time..)
Michael Schott commented:
July 8, 2013, 8:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It just seems it's not hard to go fast in a straight line. I'd get bored after 5 minutes.
Bingo. That's why all the bench racing on this site is a wasted exercise. What's more important is the sensation and where you like your power. I love when my N52 races to the redline but it needs to be above 4000 or so RPM to hit it's stride. It's not slow below that but doesn't pull hard. The N20 behaves differently but feels faster off the line to me in my limited time behind the wheel. Both have their strong points and both are terrific engines.

I'm pretty disappointed in Road & Track's take in this article. They make some good points but it's clearly much more biased than their typical comparison test.
Michael Schott commented:
July 8, 2013, 8:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
To be honest, I am disappointed with the F30. I've had it for two months now and put on about 2,400 miles, including one 670 mile highway trip.

The F30 rides very nicely and is more forgiving over road imperfections. The stereo is a definite improvement over the E90 stereo - my favourite feature being that it can play WAV files from USB flash drives). I won't make any comments about esthetics, as I'll choose performance over styling any day and don't really give a hoot about car shape, light shape, new headlights, etc., etc.

My E90 and F30 are both equipped with optional sports suspension ($1,500 and $400 respectively) and the E90 has the Luxury package as well. I guess I should not have expected a $400 suspension mod to perform as well as a $1,500 one. My guess is that the latter purchase was likely just a lowering of the vehicle, whereas the former more likely included performance shocks &/or springs &/or sway bars. There is absolutely no comparison in terms of handling. My E90 can take street corners at wonderful speeds with virtually no lean and I usually accelerate into corners just for the fun of it. I've had to slow the F30 down around the same corners as it simply does not handle as well. It does not have the road feel that the E90 does and if I had to compare it to another vehicle, I'd say that its road feel is similar to that of a Lexus ES 350, a car that almost put me to sleep when I test drove it a few years ago.

The fit and finish is excellent and definitely a step above the E90. I'd rate the stock E90 stereo as a 3/10 (I'm very fussy) and the F30 at 5-6/30, so definitely an improvement. I upgrade all of my cars' stereos, so I am basing this observation on memory. I like the remote's trunk opening feature, but couldn't BMW have included a closing feature as is evident on the X3 (oops...straying from the topic)?

I am searching for a solution to the handling issues and will hopefully get that resolved shortly. Whether it's going to be tires, shocks, springs or sway bars, I don't know. BMW offered to put in the M suspension (shocks and springs) for a mere $4,000......that ain't gonna happen, but I will keep on reading this forum and hopefully come up with a definitive solution (or improvement) for significantly less than that.

Gas consumption (Imperial gallons): The E90 averages 25 MPG in the city and 35-37 MPG on the highway. The F30 gets 29 MPG in the city and well over 40 MPG on the highway. I drove 335 highway miles recently in ECO mode at 120 km/hr. (74.57 MPH) with the A/C on and the Stop/Start feature disabled. I got an amazing 47 MPG! I have no complaints about that!

I hope that I've been of help....

Roberta
This review perfectly shows how perceptions vary. The poster says that the F30 fit and finish is a step above the E90 while many here say otherwise.
K-A commented:
July 8, 2013, 8:48 am

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I appreciate the added refinement of the F30, on the other I appreciate the E90 having an I6 all around. My main beef regarding the F30 is that as a car that's ultimately about more "refinement" than the E90, it would have been nice for BMW to truly showcase that inside the car where the F30's biggest faults lie (interior). The drive of the F30 I think is superb and overall dynamically I'd rather have one than the E90 as the F30 simply *drives* more refined and luxuriously. And I for one think that it carries over distinct BMW driver-to-road connections well enough considering the added drive coddling (again, I wish interior coddling would be added to that).

We get this kicking and screaming on the F10 boards, but one thing the F10 has going for it is an unquestioned, vast refinement/luxury/high-class edge over the E60 it replaced. The interior alone appears and feels several generations newer to me. At the same time, the F10 went much further above from the E60 in weighted/coddling/luxury drive than the F30 did the E90. Which also means the F10 sacrifices more brute-connectivity to the road from the E60 than the F30 does from the E90 (which despite what many purists feel, I believe is a great thing for the segment the F10 is in, as it goes up several notches from the E60 in "high-classness" and pure luxury). I also believe the F30 did a great thing considering the segment it is in, as it caters to more needs than going all-out in just one, and it didn't get much if any heavier than the E90, and didn't go from Yin to Yang. It simply dialed back in one aspect to heavy up on another, yet not fully sacrificing on any.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 8, 2013, 9:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I don't think price has anything to do with it. I could of bought 2 F30's with the price I paid for my M3. It's that BMW screwed up the BMW 'feel' and is now trying to be what Lexus used to be.
I agree that the 'feel' went too far overboard towards road forgiveness and away from road ownership, but the point that many miss is this:

The 5 is the new 7.

The 3 is the new 5.

The 1 is the new 3 and the 1 hasn't been released yet.

What we have here is a three-year strategy by BMW to realign its offerings with its userbase. Instead of starting with the 1 Sedan as an edgy racer wannabe for 20-somethings they started with the 5 and the 3 for the 40-somethings. Its a sequencing problem, nothing more.

Had the Beatles jumped from A Hard Day's Night to Sgt. Pepper without Rubber Soul in the middle, people would be saying the same thing. Give BMW another year, all this "they've abandoned the enthusiasts and are out of their minds sniff sniff" stuff will end. The 1 Sedan will be an E36 reborn, everyone will be thrilled, and it won't sell well because there aren't enough enthusiasts out there to begin with which is the problem you all face but fail to realize.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
July 8, 2013, 9:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Once 2 & 3 year old CPO F30's become affordable to the F30 knockers they will all mysteriously disappear.
Spot on.

For some strange reason, a lot of 19-25 year olds are attracted to $50,000 German luxury cars designed for 35-60 year olds and then they resent the very group that the car was designed for. If they don't like the badge whoring and don't like the strategy, hello, stop buying them. A brand new juiced Civic can be had for the same money as a used 3 Series, buy the car you want that was designed for your age group already, stop whining about a car designed for your dad and crying about how it doesn't meet your needs. It's not supposed to meet your needs.

BJ
bighorns commented:
July 8, 2013, 10:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I agree that the 'feel' went too far overboard towards road forgiveness and away from road ownership, but the point that many miss is this:

The 5 is the new 7.

The 3 is the new 5.

The 1 is the new 3 and the 1 hasn't been released yet.

What we have here is a three-year strategy by BMW to realign its offerings with its userbase. Instead of starting with the 1 Sedan as an edgy racer wannabe for 20-somethings they started with the 5 and the 3 for the 40-somethings. Its a sequencing problem, nothing more.

Had the Beatles jumped from A Hard Day's Night to Sgt. Pepper without Rubber Soul in the middle, people would be saying the same thing. Give BMW another year, all this "they've abandoned the enthusiasts and are out of their minds sniff sniff" stuff will end. The 1 Sedan will be an E36 reborn, everyone will be thrilled, and it won't sell well because there aren't enough enthusiasts out there to begin with which is the problem you all face but fail to realize.

BJ

This is the most sensible analogy that I have seen so far, and I have felt that this is perhaps BMW's new strategy myself. The 1 series is the 'new 3 series', and the BMW line-up has grown up.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 8, 2013, 12:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Spot on.

For some strange reason, a lot of 19-25 year olds are attracted to $50,000 German luxury cars designed for 35-60 year olds and then they resent the very group that the car was designed for. If they don't like the badge whoring and don't like the strategy, hello, stop buying them. A brand new juiced Civic can be had for the same money as a used 3 Series, buy the car you want that was designed for your age group already, stop whining about a car designed for your dad and crying about how it doesn't meet your needs. It's not supposed to meet your needs.

BJ
I'm very passionate about the BMW brand, hence why I use to work for them. BMW use to have a morals, having a sporting character, but they've just thrown that into the trash.
BMW 3-SERIES commented:
July 8, 2013, 9:32 pm

Cant deny that F30 looks miles better than that E90.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 9, 2013, 4:01 am

In due time, once BMW fixes the electric steering and the body roll, the F30 is back in it.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 9, 2013, 6:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'm very passionate about the BMW brand, hence why I use to work for them. BMW use to have a morals, having a sporting character, but they've just thrown that into the trash.
In a tough economy luxury car makers get pinched. And BMW, unlike everyone else, doesn't have a low-end brand to benefit. Acura can slide but Honda will be okay. Audi can fall but Volkswagen will be strong. Lexus can have an off year but Toyota will come through.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz sit out there alone. In this type of economy and with baby boomers getting much older, they had no choice but to knock themselves off. With the 320i and 4 Series and the GT and Gran Coupe's, and X1, and the 1 Sedan, BMW will have nearly doubled the size of its offerings in under four years. Instead of making them "BMW lights" like Nissan to Infiniti, they just made them "BMW's".

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
In due time, once BMW fixes the electric steering and the body roll, the F30 is back in it.
I've got a set of Sport line springs and I'm desperately waiting on Turner to release its sway bar. That should fix me up just fine.

BJ
Saintor commented:
July 9, 2013, 8:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I'm very passionate about the BMW brand, hence why I use to work for them. BMW use to have a morals, having a sporting character, but they've just thrown that into the trash.
In a context of no dominating owner, BMW shareholders don't care much about it and none of them has >50%. They want infinite growth, financial numbers that beats the next competitor even if that means prostitution. Otherwise the managers will just be replaced.
JoeFromPA commented:
July 9, 2013, 10:17 am

Just in case anyone was wondering:

The e46 ZHP dominates the e90 in terms of connectedness, interior design, and road feel
The e36 328is dominates the e46 330i in terms of steering feel and road connectedness
The e30 crushes the e36 in terms of classic german build quality, road feel, 3-box design

The e21 doesn't crush any of them.
Saintor commented:
July 9, 2013, 1:03 pm

Quote:
The e46 ZHP dominates the e90 in terms of connectedness, interior design, and road feel
I don't think so. The E90 is the best athlete of the bunch so far. By a landslide. Even better than the E36 becasue the platform is more ridgid and fully controllable.

The E46 was more emotional, even enough to be a better BMW. Unexplainable, maybe defined by more BMW-esque styling and more intimacy.

The F30 needs a lot of money to be considered as a genuine Bimmer. Possible but you must be convinced.
bighorns commented:
July 9, 2013, 1:16 pm

Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 9, 2013, 2:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Just in case anyone was wondering:

The e46 ZHP dominates the e90 in terms of connectedness, interior design, and road feel
The e36 328is dominates the e46 330i in terms of steering feel and road connectedness
The e30 crushes the e36 in terms of classic german build quality, road feel, 3-box design

The e21 doesn't crush any of them.
And watch for all these opinions and counters from people who have not driven half the cars you just listed

A best friend of mine who has an equal BMW obsessions has an E36 328is that gets all of my leftovers(like my S52 cams), an E30 325e he converted to an I, and also in the driveway is his brothers E46 328i. All 5spds. What a great way to sample the 3 series between his cars and mine. We joked that we should get an E90 just to round us out lol.
JoeFromPA commented:
July 9, 2013, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I don't think so. The E90 is the best athlete of the bunch so far. By a landslide. Even better than the E36 becasue the platform is more ridgid and fully controllable.

The E46 was more emotional, even enough to be a better BMW. Unexplainable, maybe defined by more BMW-esque styling and more intimacy.
I said the e46 ZHP or 'performance package'. The e90 328i, 330i, and 335i never made a car that connected, with that wonderful steering feel, and of course no where near the interior design.

I mean, c'mon, we're sharing subjective opinions and magazine racing so OF COURSE my opinion is more valid than yours.

That's just the nature of the beast!
Saintor commented:
July 9, 2013, 5:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I said the e46 ZHP or 'performance package'. The e90 328i, 330i, and 335i never made a car that connected, with that wonderful steering feel, and of course no where near the interior design.

I mean, c'mon, we're sharing subjective opinions and magazine racing so OF COURSE my opinion is more valid than yours.

That's just the nature of the beast!
Which OF COURSE entitles me to say that you are wrong. BTW, I owned both.
enigma commented:
July 9, 2013, 9:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
2 E46 M3's

1 E90 M Sport 6MT

1 E92 M Sport 6MT

F30 330d M Sport

Berk! As soon as you play the I have an M3 card you think it automatically gives you credibility on the F30 forum.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Oh the irony... Aren't you doing the very thing yourself by mentioning your past cars? Having owned all these cars gives you more authority over the other people's opinions?
RobertaZ commented:
July 9, 2013, 11:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
^I sill want to know what the wheels/tires and suspension setup is like between the two cars of yours. Your CDN F30 is a bit different than what we are offered in the US, such as your $400 sport suspension, I want to figure out what you have.
I am not a technical person and, to be honest, don't know very much about cars - I just know what feels right to me. The F30 has P225/45R18 all season run-flat tires with 2,400 miles on them and the E90 has 205/55R16 summer tires have been driven for 65,000 miles. The sport suspension is listed as item #704 in the BMW spec sheet. Certain features are standard up here, such as leather, heated seats, heavy duty battery and a few other things......none of which affect handling and ride......unless leatherette makes you itch.

BMW.ca has a downloadable PDF with all of the specs.

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/newvehicles/...alogue_CAE.pdf

I'm sure the differences between the U.S. and Cdn versions are mostly cosmetic and weather-related. Does the Sport Line in the U.S. come with the same suspension as the other two lines? It does up here.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 9, 2013, 11:32 pm

BJ,

I've thought long and hard about what is upsetting me with the F30 and I think I've figured it out! It's the fact that the over the years, BMW has built a reputation for itself. That reputation is that a BMW conquers corners. With the F30, that has gotten blurry. The 3 series has ALWAYS been the benchmark, and THE car that sets the standard with both it's luxurious and sporting nature. It just doesn't seem to be there anymore. I love the BMW brand, and my family has been fortunate enough to own a lot of them. That's why I feel so strongly about the company. One that use to call itself 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'.
bayoucity commented:
July 10, 2013, 12:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW 3-SERIES View Post
Cant deny that F30 looks miles better than that E90.
F30 looks good in M Sport only.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 10, 2013, 5:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
F30 looks good in M Sport only.
F30 M Sport front looks like an old E90 LCI.

F30 M Sport rear looks like my mom in a poodle skirt.

BJ
BiggerTwin commented:
July 10, 2013, 7:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
funny that only on the BMW forums will BMW owners bash any new chassis when theirs becomes outdated.
If you think this is bad, go to a Porsche forum when they bring out a new 911. To 99% of the population the cars look identical but Porsche owners still complain about the new car.

My E92 coupes have been the best daily drivers I have ever owned but when I drove an F30 sedan my car felt a little long in the tooth when I got back in it. I have ordered a 435i xDrive and expect it to be a better overall car than my 335i xDrive coupe. Yes, there are things I would have done differently on the new car but I am not going to bash it because it isnít perfect. What car is?

For a daily driver, you canít beat the 3 Series. If you want a more focused driving experience, buy a Porsche. When the 3 and 4 Series cars get too big for my tastes, I will buy a 1 or 2 Series car. I have owned a lot of cars and while BMWs have changed a bit, I think they have remained true to their core values and I still find each new iteration of the 3 Series to be an improvement over the last.

Alan
bayoucity commented:
July 10, 2013, 7:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
F30 M Sport front looks like an old E90 LCI.

F30 M Sport rear looks like my mom in a poodle skirt.

BJ
LOL BJ, you are funny sometimes.

How's your jet lag?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 10, 2013, 8:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
I am not a technical person and, to be honest, don't know very much about cars - I just know what feels right to me. The F30 has P225/45R18 all season run-flat tires with 2,400 miles on them and the E90 has 205/55R16 summer tires have been driven for 65,000 miles. The sport suspension is listed as item #704 in the BMW spec sheet. Certain features are standard up here, such as leather, heated seats, heavy duty battery and a few other things......none of which affect handling and ride......unless leatherette makes you itch.

BMW.ca has a downloadable PDF with all of the specs.

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/newvehicles/...alogue_CAE.pdf

I'm sure the differences between the U.S. and Cdn versions are mostly cosmetic and weather-related. Does the Sport Line in the U.S. come with the same suspension as the other two lines? It does up here.
You don't need to be a technical person to know that the all seasons on one car, especially if run flats, are very different than summer tires on the other. The summer tires alone have a huge edge in braking performance and grip/handling. If they are non run flats, they may ride softer and smoother and quieter as well.
Michael Schott commented:
July 10, 2013, 9:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggerTwin View Post
If you think this is bad, go to a Porsche forum when they bring out a new 911. To 99% of the population the cars look identical but Porsche owners still complain about the new car.

My E92 coupes have been the best daily drivers I have ever owned but when I drove an F30 sedan my car felt a little long in the tooth when I got back in it. I have ordered a 435i xDrive and expect it to be a better overall car than my 335i xDrive coupe. Yes, there are things I would have done differently on the new car but I am not going to bash it because it isnít perfect. What car is?

For a daily driver, you canít beat the 3 Series. If you want a more focused driving experience, buy a Porsche. When the 3 and 4 Series cars get too big for my tastes, I will buy a 1 or 2 Series car. I have owned a lot of cars and while BMWs have changed a bit, I think they have remained true to their core values and I still find each new iteration of the 3 Series to be an improvement over the last.

Alan
The 3 series sedan has been the benchmark for handling in it's class for a very long time and for those who need 4 doors, a Porsche is not practical. I don't expect a 3 series to be as focused as a Cayman but it's the next best thing and unfortunately it seems the F30 has regressed in that category.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 10, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The 3 series sedan has been the benchmark for handling in it's class for a very long time and for those who need 4 doors, a Porsche is not practical. I don't expect a 3 series to be as focused as a Cayman but it's the next best thing and unfortunately it seems the F30 has regressed in that category.
Db750 commented:
July 10, 2013, 11:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The 3 series sedan has been the benchmark for handling in it's class for a very long time and for those who need 4 doors, a Porsche is not practical. I don't expect a 3 series to be as focused as a Cayman but it's the next best thing and unfortunately it seems the F30 has regressed in that category.
Well said. Thank you for this post.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using BimmerApp mobile app
chiefneil commented:
July 10, 2013, 3:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Just in case anyone was wondering:

The e46 ZHP dominates the e90 in terms of connectedness, interior design, and road feel
The e36 328is dominates the e46 330i in terms of steering feel and road connectedness
The e30 crushes the e36 in terms of classic german build quality, road feel, 3-box design

The e21 doesn't crush any of them.
While I miss my E36, it wasn't superior in any way to my E46. The steering is very similar between the two, with the E36 being a touch slower. I wouldn't characterize one as being superior to the other, just different. "Road connectedness" - not sure exactly what that means but I drove both my E36 and E46 at the track and they were both a blast. The E36 was a bit better balanced (i.e. less understeer) probably due to the square tire setup.

The E36 was just a really, raw car that delivered a unique driving experience. It was awesome for it's time, and I had it when I was in my 20's so it was perfect for my age group. But no way, no how, would I ever for a second think about trading my E46 for an E36.

The E90 I think is a fine car. I've only driven them as loaners so I don't have significant seat time in them. I found the E90 to be a bit austere, but it certainly handled well. The only real drawback was that it wasn't sufficiently different from the E46 to entice me to open my wallet and buy one (and I'm not fond of the looks). The E46 was a big improvement over the E36. The E90 was more of a baby step better. I don't think my E46 crushes the E90 in any category, but ymmv.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 17, 2013, 12:42 am

I agree with this article.

This whole trend of BMW making soft core cars with less communicative steering feel/feedback is just sad.

I am not digging the new F30's. I have driven the Base F30's both 328i and 335i and find them less engaging and fun to drive then the Base versions of E9x 328i/335i.
Saintor commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The 3 series sedan has been the benchmark for handling in it's class for a very long time and for those who need 4 doors, a Porsche is not practical. I don't expect a 3 series to be as focused as a Cayman but it's the next best thing and unfortunately it seems the F30 has regressed in that category.
So does the new buyers' enthusiasm for driving. Now they find all kind of lame excuses to defend their cars.

When 3-series buyers complained in '98-99 about the E46 steering, BMW responded with an update. Same goes when the '05-06 330i E90 powerplant was judged a bit short on power... the rest is history.

Now, BMW just laugh at their new kind of 3-series buyers, who cares less at driving.

This is not to say that the F30 is all wrong ... I like some aspects of it. However driving is no longer a top priority, NO MATTER THE NUMBERS. Yes it is a fair statement that itjust lost its soul.

I'd bet that most BMW engineers related to dynamic virtues were replaced in the last 6 years.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:52 am

Decent review of the 320i, .91 g's, 106ft from 60, they describe the sports suspension as just right.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...0i_first_look/
BiggerTwin commented:
July 17, 2013, 11:29 am

To those lamenting that BMW has lost its focus and is making softer cars: has the M3 gotten softer or is it still the ultimate driving machine?

I had an E46 M3 which I bought after cross-shopping Corvettes, Porsches, and even used Ferraris. While my E92 335i xDrive coupe is definitely softer focused, that is not such a bad thing in my book. When I had the M3 I also had a WRX to use as my winter AWD car. I ended up using the WRX quite a bit in the summer as well since there were days I simply wanted a softer focused car that didn't require as much muscle power to depress the clutch, move the shift lever, or turn the wheel. While the E9 now serves as my only car, it would indeed be sad if BMW no longer made M cars that handled as well as the best in the world.

Alan
Saintor commented:
July 17, 2013, 11:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggerTwin View Post
To those lamenting that BMW has lost its focus and is making softer cars: has the M3 gotten softer or is it still the ultimate driving machine?
If I tell you that the M3 is still an E9X and not a F3X, does this give you a clue?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 17, 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
If I tell you that the M3 is still an E9X and not a F3X, does this give you a clue?
I think they ceased production on the E92 M3 in the last week or two. There is always a 1+ year lag for the M3 to switch over to the new platform.

I have high hopes for the F80, but who knows, BMW could screw it up. At which point I would look to the new ATS-V.
Keepittrill commented:
July 17, 2013, 12:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I think they ceased production on the E92 M3 in the last week or two. There is always a 1+ year lag for the M3 to switch over to the new platform.

I have high hopes for the F80, but who knows, BMW could screw it up. At which point I would look to the new ATS-V.
The M3 coupe was killed today, actually. ):


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Spagolli94 commented:
July 17, 2013, 1:10 pm

I recently had a rental 328xi rental when I went to Vail. I have a, E90 335i 6spd, sport and lots of other goodies too, so it's not apples to apples. That said...

F30 Pros
1. I was shocked at how quick the F30 was. All that power and smooth acceleration from a 4 cal? Wow?
2. I didn't notice the diesel clatter people complain about
3. The ride quality was great. Firm, but smooth. Not Camry-ish like the article said.
4. The steering, while way too light in the parking lot, firmed up nicely at speed, especially when in sport mode.

F30 Cons
1. I immediately noticed the cheapness of the interior. Not sure if it was more plastic, the grade of plastic, the fact I had a stripped-down rental, or all of the above.
2. The car felt big and I much prefer smaller cars (that's just a personal preference though, not really a knock on the F30).
3. The steering wheel was very thin and ugly shape. Would be rectified with better "line" I imagine.
4. The ASS feature and other non-sport driving modes blow. Why bother? I guess they had to do that crap for CAFE regulations or something?

It very well be possible that the cons I noticed would be a non-issue on a higher line. That said, I think two things will prevent me from getting the F30. One is the fact they have lines at all. I would like a sport package with a saddle brown interior. I would like the ability to chose more options and not be pigeon-holed into a specific line. And two, the size. Who knows, maybe in a few years, I'll want a bigger car, but not now.

I like a lot of things about the F30. IF it was the same size as the E90 with more configurable options, I'd likely be all over it.
Michael Schott commented:
July 17, 2013, 2:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spagolli94 View Post
I recently had a rental 328xi rental when I went to Vail. I have a, E90 335i 6spd, sport and lots of other goodies too, so it's not apples to apples. That said...

F30 Pros
1. I was shocked at how quick the F30 was. All that power and smooth acceleration from a 4 cal? Wow?
2. I didn't notice the diesel clatter people complain about
3. The ride quality was great. Firm, but smooth. Not Camry-ish like the article said.
4. The steering, while way too light in the parking lot, firmed up nicely at speed, especially when in sport mode.

F30 Cons
1. I immediately noticed the cheapness of the interior. Not sure if it was more plastic, the grade of plastic, the fact I had a stripped-down rental, or all of the above.
2. The car felt big and I much prefer smaller cars (that's just a personal preference though, not really a knock on the F30).
3. The steering wheel was very thin and ugly shape. Would be rectified with better "line" I imagine.
4. The ASS feature and other non-sport driving modes blow. Why bother? I guess they had to do that crap for CAFE regulations or something?

It very well be possible that the cons I noticed would be a non-issue on a higher line. That said, I think two things will prevent me from getting the F30. One is the fact they have lines at all. I would like a sport package with a saddle brown interior. I would like the ability to chose more options and not be pigeon-holed into a specific line. And two, the size. Who knows, maybe in a few years, I'll want a bigger car, but not now.

I like a lot of things about the F30. IF it was the same size as the E90 with more configurable options, I'd likely be all over it.
For 2014 the Sport steering wheel will be std on all models including non-line I believe.

If you read many of the reviews on this site, a lot of owners drive in modes other than sport. Personally, when I lad a base loaner, I drove it in Sport nearly the entire day but if I were to drive a lot on the freeway Eco-Pro would be fine.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 17, 2013, 2:13 pm

It gives me a big clue....

I hope the F3x is nothing like the current F30. The current F30 in its the soft core state is a huge disappointment.

It is so sad when a 3 series F30 wins comparisons based on curb appeal and not driving dynamics. Who would have thought in past that BMW will be selling a $62K 335i based on sole curb appeal.

On the side note I do find E46 M3 even more raw then E9x M3. The good thing is that E9x M3 does not suffer from that poor EPS they are about to throw in F3x M3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
If I tell you that the M3 is still an E9X and not a F3X, does this give you a clue?
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 17, 2013, 6:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Decent review of the 320i, .91 g's, 106ft from 60, they describe the sports suspension as just right.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...0i_first_look/
Not bad all. Nice alternative to the TSX, GLI, ATS 2.5, IS250 etc. Pretty competitive pricing and more than enough power to enjoy it as DD.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 17, 2013, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggerTwin View Post
To those lamenting that BMW has lost its focus and is making softer cars: has the M3 gotten softer or is it still the ultimate driving machine?
"The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just marketing shtick to make 50-year-olds stuck in family sedans believe they were driving a Porsche.

The 3 Series is a $50,000 German luxury car. It should be embraced for what it is, not what it isn't.

BJ
Keepittrill commented:
July 17, 2013, 7:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just marketing shtick to make 50-year-olds stuck in family sedans believe they were driving a Porsche.

The 3 Series is a $50,000 German luxury car. It should be embraced for what it is, not what it isn't.

BJ
LOL


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Kayani_1 commented:
July 17, 2013, 7:54 pm

I think there was bit more then just a slogan to BMW 3 series.

The BMW 3 series is traditionally one of the best sports sedan/GT coupe in its class. It was always sports first luxury second philosophy. Because BMW focused on making it great in driving dynamics first and then let the pieces fall where they belonged.

Now it is tech gizmos, gas mileage, curb appeal/luxury and straight line performance . Hmmmm that reminds me a bit of old MB philosophy.

Those that found Porsche unpractical were happy in BMW 3 series. Now it is hard to tell BMW 3 series apart from others in its class. I think BMW went to far off with its new slogan efficient dynamics and turned it into the softest 3 series to date.
Jugghaid commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

The BMW 3 series is traditionally one of the best sports sedan/GT coupe in its class.
Still is according to most every comparison test out there.
eazy commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:26 pm

I had both an f30 & e90 while the e90 had better steering than the f30. I would say that the f30 had better handling than he e90 on everyday roads. When you hit a unavoidable pothole in the e90 you get a huge amount of bump steer while in the f30 there is less. What get me angry about the f30 is that the non m/sport line models feel kind of floaty compare to its e90 counterparts


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugghaid View Post
Still is according to most every comparison test out there.
It seems like it's the best only because of it's curb appeal.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 18, 2013, 1:30 am

+1

I think it has become more about luxury, gas mileage, and tech gizmos. Now engine power wise BMW has not lost it and still dominates. The rest of driving dynamics have taken a back seat to efficient dynamics philosophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It seems like it's the best only because of it's curb appeal.
K-A commented:
July 18, 2013, 3:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just marketing shtick to make 50-year-olds stuck in family sedans believe they were driving a Porsche.

The 3 Series is a $50,000 German luxury car. It should be embraced for what it is, not what it isn't.

BJ
I wouldn't call the 3 a Luxury Car as much as I would Premium Car, especially with that interior. It inherently has always been considered a precision sports tool more than a Luxury tool, and I'd say with the F30 that still stands (more geared towards Sport than Luxury). Also, BMW bringing the 320i here for $32K makes it very clear that the 3 is still their livably compact, nimble yet comfortable utilitarian and relatively affordable tool.

Of course, the dichotomy isn't as wide as it used to be, as both sport and luxury move closer together, but people have to realize the 3 sacrificing more extremity for better overall balance.

If BMW kept the older more extreme mindframe they'd lose lots of customers to the C Class who with its W204 facelift brought a big about-face elegant interior makeover and ambiance compared to the horrendously crude and austere pre-facelift WHICH complimented what seemed to be improved comfort and refinement all around. And anyone who says that the F30 feels more like an M-B hasn't driven a C Class. Pit a C250 to a 328i and there simply isn't a comparison in dynamics. One feels like an absolute soulless slug with smooth and luxurious driving traits for its class, and the other feels like a well balanced, lively sporty Sedan with comfort to match.
K-A commented:
July 18, 2013, 3:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
For 2014 the Sport steering wheel will be std on all models including non-line I believe.

If you read many of the reviews on this site, a lot of owners drive in modes other than sport. Personally, when I lad a base loaner, I drove it in Sport nearly the entire day but if I were to drive a lot on the freeway Eco-Pro would be fine.
You're talking about the "regular" Sport wheel, correct (i.e not M Sport)? I ask because I saw a 320i in white at a dealer, literally the most bland and basic 3-Series you can get right now as it had no Line, those ghastly reflector-halogen headlamps, maybe 1-2 options total with a low price tag to match, however somehow had an M Sport steering wheel in it which of course wasn't on an options list. Maybe a dealer installed item? Looked pathetic and awkward to have an "M" decal anywhere on the interior of this particular 3.
tturedraider commented:
July 18, 2013, 5:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
You're talking about the "regular" Sport wheel, correct (i.e not M Sport)? I ask because I saw a 320i in white at a dealer, literally the most bland and basic 3-Series you can get right now as it had no Line, those ghastly reflector-halogen headlamps, maybe 1-2 options total with a low price tag to match, however somehow had an M Sport steering wheel in it which of course wasn't on an options list. Maybe a dealer installed item? Looked pathetic and awkward to have an "M" decal anywhere on the interior of this particular 3.
320 sport package includes the M Sport wheel.
Michael Schott commented:
July 18, 2013, 8:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
+1

I think it has become more about luxury, gas mileage, and tech gizmos. Now engine power wise BMW has not lost it and still dominates the rest of driving dynamics have taken a back seat to efficient dynamics philosophy.
Efficient Dynamics are driving a lot of decisions but I think that added refinement is also part of the F30. It's a considerably more modern and sophisticated driving experience than the E90. The experience is quieter, smoother and in general less frenetic. I can see where some lament this but in reality the capabilities are higher in the F30 but less engaging.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 18, 2013, 8:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Efficient Dynamics are driving a lot of decisions but I think that added refinement is also part of the F30. It's a considerably more modern and sophisticated driving experience than the E90. The experience is quieter, smoother and in general less frenetic. I can see where some lament this but in reality the capabilities are higher in the F30 but less engaging.
Which is essentially the problem. The F30's chassis is probably leaps and bounds better then the e9x, and probably even more balanced, but you can't really explore what it can really do, because that driver centric feeling is gone.
Michael Schott commented:
July 18, 2013, 9:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Which is essentially the problem. The F30's chassis is probably leaps and bounds better then the e9x, and probably even more balanced, but you can't really explore what it can really do, because that driver centric feeling is gone.
I wouldn't say you can't explore the limits which are quite high but the experience is dampened. The F30 feels more stable at these limits and I'd guess this is even more so on a less than perfect road. It's just not as visceral. Where the car would lose out to a similarly equipped E90 (I'm guessing) would be in a series of quick switchbacks like in a slalom where the decreased roll resistance would be an issue.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 19, 2013, 2:35 am

If you call softer ride and more floaty standard suspension and a hybrid dull ECOPRO mode and cheaper hard plastic use to accommodate cost cutting in interior added refinement then maybe so. The start stop is clumsy the 4 cylinder turbo sounds less special then the inline-6 it replaces.

I am not saying F30 is not improved in some areas as it is. The rear seat room is greater, gas mileage is improved, and the 8-speed is nice. The interior design looks nice except for standard bus like steering wheel. Now here do not confuse the design of interior with quality of materials. Because hard plastic in F30 feels low grade compared to both E46 and E90.

However, the bottom line is the new slogan Efficient Dynamics is producing far less driver oriented cars and far more Eco/family friendly cars.

I for one would like to return to the Slogan of Driving Dynamics days where cars were first and fore most sports sedan. Then BMW will let the rest of the pieces fall as they would in its place and it worked too as for more then 4 decades. The BMW brand has produced one after another wonderful driver oriented sports sedans. This is the first BMW 3 series that has taken the most heavy criticism for being too soft.


The F30 fan boy will say that it is previous owners bias not so the case. The car testing publications as well as even BMW will admit that the F30 was designed to appeal to wider range of demographic. In other word they had to tone down the hard core sporty flavor a bit in favor of more soft core flavor to attract wider audience.

As for the F30 having superiority in performance. Yes, the straight line of 328i is greatly improved. The rest of the package I am not so sure about because when you compare how a F30 335i M-sport does on a track against the older generation E92 335i. It seems to not display any great advantage. So all this advancement and nothing to show for it.

So now to the main question. Is BMW 3 series still good among its peers.

Well then the answer is like this...............: You decided it is like asking is a 1 eyed man still good among blind men.


I hope that BMW returns to its older core beliefs of Driving Dynamics first. Because it is what brought BMW here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Efficient Dynamics are driving a lot of decisions but I think that added refinement is also part of the F30. It's a considerably more modern and sophisticated driving experience than the E90. The experience is quieter, smoother and in general less frenetic. I can see where some lament this but in reality the capabilities are higher in the F30 but less engaging.
Michael Schott commented:
July 19, 2013, 8:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If you call softer ride and more floaty standard suspension and a hybrid dull ECOPRO mode and cheaper hard plastic use to accommodate cost cutting in interior added refinement then maybe so. The start stop is clumsy the 4 cylinder turbo sounds less special then the inline-6 it replaces.

I am not saying F30 is not improved in some areas as it is. The rear seat room is greater, gas mileage is improved, and the 8-speed is nice. The interior design looks nice except for standard bus like steering wheel. Now here do not confuse the design of interior with quality of materials. Because hard plastic in F30 feels low grade compared to both E46 and E90.

However, the bottom line is the new slogan Efficient Dynamics is producing far less driver oriented cars and far more Eco/family friendly cars.

I for one would like to return to the Slogan of Driving Dynamics days where cars were first and fore most sports sedan. Then BMW will let the rest of the pieces fall as they would in its place and it worked too as for more then 4 decades. The BMW brand has produced one after another wonderful driver oriented sports sedans. This is the first BMW 3 series that has taken the most heavy criticism for being too soft.


The F30 fan boy will say that it is previous owners bias not so the case. The car testing publications as well as even BMW will admit that the F30 was designed to appeal to wider range of demographic. In other word they had to tone down the hard core sporty flavor a bit in favor of more soft core flavor to attract wider audience.

As for the F30 having superiority in performance. Yes, the straight line of 328i is greatly improved. The rest of the package I am not so sure about because when you compare how a F30 335i M-sport does on a track against the older generation E92 335i. It seems to not display any great advantage. So all this advancement and nothing to show for it.

So now to the main question. Is BMW 3 series still good among it peer.

Well then the answer is like this...............: You decided it is like asking is a 1 eyed man still good among blind men.


I hope that BMW returns to its older core beliefs of Driving Dynamics first. Because it is what brought BMW here.
There's no doubt that a base suspension F30 is dynamically inferior to a base E90. That's a shame. However the enthusiast driver who buys a RWD F30 Sportline or other line or base with the DHP will find the car to be very refined. I'm talking about how the car functions as an everyday driver. It's less frenetic, smoother, quieter and more poised than the E90. The interior is more interesting and functional. Everyone focuses on the plastic on the console but it's not a big deal and it's assembled flawlessly. It's just not padded. As far as the Eco Pro mode, if you don't like it, there are the comfort and sport modes at the flick of a switch. Not a big deal. And for 2014 the "bus like" steering wheel is replaced with the MSport wheel as std equipment.

Yes the F30 is not as visceral as the E90 and that's a step back IMO. But a Sportline model as an everyday driver is a great sport sedan with the added benefit of new features and refinement.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 19, 2013, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's no doubt that a base suspension F30 is dynamically inferior to a base E90. That's a shame. However the enthusiast driver who buys a RWD F30 Sportline or other line or base with the DHP will find the car to be very refined. I'm talking about how the car functions as an everyday driver. It's less frenetic, smoother, quieter and more poised than the E90. The interior is more interesting and functional. Everyone focuses on the plastic on the console but it's not a big deal and it's assembled flawlessly. It's just not padded. As far as the Eco Pro mode, if you don't like it, there are the comfort and sport modes at the flick of a switch. Not a big deal. And for 2014 the "bus like" steering wheel is replaced with the MSport wheel as std equipment.

Yes the F30 is not as visceral as the E90 and that's a step back IMO. But a Sportline model as an everyday driver is a great sport sedan with the added benefit of new features and refinement.
Where is it said that all 2014's come with sport steering and the M sport steering wheel?
K-A commented:
July 19, 2013, 9:53 am

That'd be ridiculous. So a non-M Sport base 320i really has an "M" Sport wheel? Which means EVERY F30 sold will have an "M" badge on the car? If so, BMW really crossed the line there.

I wonder how they'd explain that to customers paying much higher prices for higher level models who still have to get the actual M Sport package to get the M Sport wheel.
captainaudio commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:16 am

I don't see good driving dynamics and refinement as an either/or choice. With the technology available today it is easily possible to design a car that combines comfort with performance.

A car does not need to have a bone jarring suspension to handle well and it does not need to have excessive body lean to have a comfortable ride.

I think a lot of the problems with recent designs can be attributed to the trend to extreme low profile tires and RFTs with stiff side walls. Since the tires are no longer able to absorb road shocks suspension design is more critical than ever. I predict that adaptive suspension technology will become pervasive and be standard equipment on many cars, and not just higher end cars, in the very near future. At this point given the environments I drive in I would not consider any car that did not have some form of adaptive suspension.

CA


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
K-A commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:24 am

I've yet to drive a car with adaptive suspension that is as well balanced and natural feeling as a good passive suspension. The F10 being the best case in point that getting an M Sport and paying extra for the Active suspension (which in turns loses you the standard M Sport "M Suspension" for the ARS) downgrades the cars driving dynamics sportively and adds maybe a negligible amount of extra comfort.

The best suspensions in either comfort or/AND sport I've experienced have been passive suspensions that (and the key factor here) were designed to be inherently balanced and mated to the chassis at hand, harmoniously. Not to mention they're far more dependable in the long term.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
That'd be ridiculous. So a non-M Sport base 320i really has an "M" Sport wheel? Which means EVERY F30 sold will have an "M" badge on the car? If so, BMW really crossed the line there.

I wonder how they'd explain that to customers paying much higher prices for higher level models who still have to get the actual M Sport package to get the M Sport wheel.
I don't see what the big deal is.

It's an M badged STEERING wheel. It is part of a $1300 SPORT package, the kind that has been offered for decades.

Are people forgetting M-Technic E30 325's or E36 M package 318TIs where you got sporting hardware from M cars or M branding on even the most basic models?
Michael Schott commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
Where is it said that all 2014's come with sport steering and the M sport steering wheel?
It's in the Sticky at the top of the page about changes for 2014. Regarding it being an MSport wheel, another post corrected me and said this is the case. Definitely a sport steering wheel is std for 2014. I cannot confirm that this is true for the 320i. And no one said anything about "sport steering" whatever that is. The Sport setting tightens up the steering.
K-A commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I don't see what the big deal is.

It's an M badged STEERING wheel. It is part of a $1300 SPORT package, the kind that has been offered for decades.

Are people forgetting M-Technic E30 325's or E36 M package 318TIs where you got sporting hardware from M cars or M branding on even the most basic models?
On the Sticky thread it states they're getting a "Sport" wheel as standard, not sure if that means "M Sport" after all?

My issue with it is that BMW are already teetering the line of devaluing the "M" branding, which I don't have too big a problem of if done right (I.e on M Sport models, go at it), but if every single F30 from bottom to top has a driver who sees the "M" badging right in front of their faces, then the brands specialness goes down the drain, IMO. At that point the most common BMW with no extra packaging at all gets it which in turn means it's a completely generic/ubiquitous symbol.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 20, 2013, 4:25 am

I agree that interior design is more interesting but at the expense of cheap plastic. To me it makes a difference in a over $30K luxury car.

I have driven F30 328i/335i base and I did not find them to be more refined except for in terms of transmission. The 8-speed is the best thing I like in F30.

However, this edge that is found in base car goes away in more upscale cars as E92 335i were coming with 7-speed DCT. So an edge for the base car but nothing to brag about in upper performance models.

The inline-6 was more refined in its nature then the current 4 cylinder turbo. So BMW actually gave up refinement in engine for out right power. The NVH of turbo 4 lags behind that of inline-6 without a doubt. It feels more harsh and sounds a bit crude not as sophisticated as the inline-6.

Some people claim M-sport is some miracle that fixes all the flaws of F30. I highly doubt. As even in sport line or M-sport the F30 loses to cars like Lexus IS350 F-sport when it comes to driving dynamics. Now I have driven the new Lexus IS250 F-sport and 350 F-sport and I can tell you that they both are not on par with a out going E92 335i spt. pkg in terms of absolute driving dynamics and fun to drive ratio.

Most reviews will clearly point out the same issues regardless of which one you pick the base, sport line, or M-sport pkg. All the F30 versions are softer period when compared to the equivalent model of previous E9x generation. Its steering feel and feedback is not on par. Thus, compromising further its ability to be as good as previous generation in driving dynamics.

I agree one can drive F30 in comfort mode if ECO PRO is too lethargic but at the expense of gas mileage. If you turn off the stuttering stop and go ditto is the case. In other words you turn all those things off and drive it in sport + or Sport then what is the point of buying a car with numb and dull EPS steering in name of efficient dynamics. Then why not just give us a good ol fashion 3 series that is all about driving dynamics.

Like I said earlier that F30 in M-sport is probably still a nice car even though I can't stand the base version. However, even in that form it is clearly not as good as what BMW is capable of making it. It will drive like a compromise. As that is what it is because it was made to make masses happy rather then stick with what BMW is well known for.........making a hard core sports sedan with great driving dynamics.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's no doubt that a base suspension F30 is dynamically inferior to a base E90. That's a shame. However the enthusiast driver who buys a RWD F30 Sportline or other line or base with the DHP will find the car to be very refined. I'm talking about how the car functions as an everyday driver. It's less frenetic, smoother, quieter and more poised than the E90. The interior is more interesting and functional. Everyone focuses on the plastic on the console but it's not a big deal and it's assembled flawlessly. It's just not padded. As far as the Eco Pro mode, if you don't like it, there are the comfort and sport modes at the flick of a switch. Not a big deal. And for 2014 the "bus like" steering wheel is replaced with the MSport wheel as std equipment.

Yes the F30 is not as visceral as the E90 and that's a step back IMO. But a Sportline model as an everyday driver is a great sport sedan with the added benefit of new features and refinement.
Michael Schott commented:
July 20, 2013, 9:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I agree that interior design is more interesting but at the expense of cheap plastic. To me it makes a difference in a over $30K luxury car.

I have driven F30 328i/335i base and I did not find them to be more refined except for in terms of transmission. The 8-speed is the best thing I like in F30.

However, this edge that is found in base car goes away in more upscale cars as E92 335i were coming with 7-speed DCT. So an edge for the base car but nothing to brag about in upper performance models.

The inline-6 was more refined in its nature then the current 4 cylinder turbo. So BMW actually gave up refinement in engine for out right power. The NVH of turbo 4 lags behind that of inline-6 without a doubt. It feels more harsh and sounds a bit crude not as sophisticated as the inline-6.

Some people claim M-sport is some miracle that fixes all the flaws of F30. I highly doubt. As even in sport line or M-sport the F30 loses to cars like Lexus IS350 F-sport when it comes to driving dynamics. Now I have driven the new Lexus IS250 F-sport and 350 F-sport and I can tell you that they both are not on par with a out going E92 335i spt. pkg in terms of absolute driving dynamics and fun to drive ratio.

Most reviews will clearly point out the same issues regardless of which one you pick the base, sport line, or M-sport pkg. All the F30 versions are softer period when compared to the equivalent model of previous E9x generation. Its steering feel and feedback is not on par. Thus, compromising further its ability to be as good as previous generation in driving dynamics.

I agree one can drive F30 in comfort mode if ECO PRO is too lethargic but at the expense of gas mileage. If you turn the stuttering stop and go ditto is the case. In other words you turn all those things off and drive it in sport + or Sport then what is the point of buying a car with numb and dull EPS steering in name of efficient dynamics. Then why not just give us a good ol fashion 3 series that is all about driving dynamics.

Like I said earlier that F30 in M-sport is probably still a nice car even though I can't stand the base version. However, even in that form it is clearly not as good as what BMW is capable of making it. It will drive like a compromise. As that is what it is because it was made to make masses happy rather then stick with what BMW is well known for.........making a hard core sports sedan with great driving dynamics.
All I can do is relate my experience driving an F30 Sportline. Compared to my E90 base it's quieter and much more composed over the road. The suspension is much more sorted. The drawback is a lack of feedback although the capabilities are very high. That's what I mean by refinement. So may see this as a negative but the only changes I'd make are to increase roll stiffness and add steering feel. Other than that its a superior car to the E90. And BMW is not in the business of making a hard core sport sedan. If that's what you want get a WRX.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 20, 2013, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
All I can do is relate my experience driving an F30 Sportline. Compared to my E90 base it's quieter and much more composed over the road. The suspension is much more sorted. The drawback is a lack of feedback although the capabilities are very high. That's what I mean by refinement. So may see this as a negative but the only changes I'd make are to increase roll stiffness and add steering feel. Other than that its a superior car to the E90. And BMW is not in the business of making a hard core sport sedan. If that's what you want get a WRX.
The increases you are asking for came largely from ditching the runflat tires and putting on lighter wheels, and then more so with proper springs. This trilogy has been done on the last 5+ cars I have owned, it's almost required. But the F30 screams out for it more than any other-largely due to the handicap of the funflats and the EPS' sensitivity to wheel and tire weight and design.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 21, 2013, 5:11 pm

If you compare a base E90 to F30 spt. line the difference might not be as pronounced. If you compare E90 base to F30 base you come away with a different experience.

I do not fine WRX-sti more hard core then a good sorted out performance BMW like 1M. They both are similar in size but I will take 1M over WRX-STi any day for hard core performance in a refined pkg. any day of the week and twice on weekends. I like the rear drive flavor void of inherent flaws that come from a heavier AWD setup and the under steer that is a feature in most AWD cars.

I think hard core driving dynamics does not mean you have to settle for cheap materials and lack of refinement as is the case with WRX-Sti. A 1M is refined yet equally or more hard core then WRX-Sti which feels no more hard core in driving dynamics yet can come away feeling more cheaper.

I fully believe BMW is capable of making a hard core sports sedan without sacrificing refinement or avoiding cheap materials an plastic.....point



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
All I can do is relate my experience driving an F30 Sportline. Compared to my E90 base it's quieter and much more composed over the road. The suspension is much more sorted. The drawback is a lack of feedback although the capabilities are very high. That's what I mean by refinement. So may see this as a negative but the only changes I'd make are to increase roll stiffness and add steering feel. Other than that its a superior car to the E90. And BMW is not in the business of making a hard core sport sedan. If that's what you want get a WRX.
Nordique commented:
July 21, 2013, 5:22 pm

A friend of mine bought a new WRX but found it much too noisy and rough riding to be a daily and highway vehicle.
bighorns commented:
July 21, 2013, 5:45 pm

A friend had a highly modified WRX and an M6. He claimed that the WRX was every bit as fast as his M6, but the difference was, at 150 in the WRX, you knew that you were doing 150, but in the bimmer there was no sensation of that kind of speed.
Michael Schott commented:
July 21, 2013, 9:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The increases you are asking for came largely from ditching the runflat tires and putting on lighter wheels, and then more so with proper springs. This trilogy has been done on the last 5+ cars I have owned, it's almost required. But the F30 screams out for it more than any other-largely due to the handicap of the funflats and the EPS' sensitivity to wheel and tire weight and design.
I lease cars. I don't change out wheels or tires. I'm not looking for the ultimate in handling. The F30 has more refinement with RFT's and stock tires.
Michael Schott commented:
July 21, 2013, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If you compare a base E90 to F30 spt. line the difference might not be as pronounced. If you compare E90 base to F30 base you come away with a different experience.

I do not fine WRX-sti more hard core then a good sorted out performance BMW like 1M. They both are similar in size but I will take 1M over WRX-STi any day for hard core performance in a refined pkg. any day of the week and twice on weekends. I like the rear drive flavor void of inherent flaws that come from a heavier AWD setup and the under steer that is a feature in most AWD cars.

I think hard core driving dynamics does not mean you have to settle for cheap materials and lack of refinement as is the case with WRX-Sti. A 1M is refined yet equally or more hard core then WRX-Sti which feels no more hard core in driving dynamics yet can come away feeling more cheaper.

I fully believe BMW is capable of making a hard core sports sedan without sacrificing refinement or avoiding cheap materials an plastic.....point
A 1M (135M)? First of all they are more than $10K more than a WRX-STI, second, good luck finding one. M cars are a different animal. A decently optioned E90 M3 was $70K while a decently optioned E90 335 with Sport was under $50K. Totally different markets.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 22, 2013, 11:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I agree that interior design is more interesting but at the expense of cheap plastic. To me it makes a difference in a over $30K luxury car.
Give it a rest, we all owned E90's, the interior materials are the same.

BJ
johnc_22 commented:
July 22, 2013, 12:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Give it a rest, we all owned E90's, the interior materials are the same.

BJ
Keep telling yourself that...

I had a 2013 F30 Sport/Premium loaner for almost 3 weeks and it's obvious the materials have been downgraded. Most noticeable are the large swaths of cheap plastic on the front doors. That said the build quality is as good or better, and driver ergonomics are much improved over the E90.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 22, 2013, 7:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
Keep telling yourself that...

I had a 2013 F30 Sport/Premium loaner for almost 3 weeks and it's obvious the materials have been downgraded. Most noticeable are the large swaths of cheap plastic on the front doors. That said the build quality is as good or better, and driver ergonomics are much improved over the E90.


The materials are exactly the same. And there's absolutely nothing luxurious about the E9X interior. I don't know what's worse, the cupholders designed by a kindergarten student or the big cavity created by the iDrive controller that is not there.

Perhaps it's the tiny vents designed for a dwarf, or maybe it's the windshield designed to chip when a speck of dust hits it. The interior looks like it's covered in dog skin, and the carpet is most definitely thinner and flatter.

Every F30 owner also owned the crappy old rattlebox E9X. You can't fool us, chief.

BJ
EstorilF30 commented:
July 22, 2013, 8:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


The materials are exactly the same. And there's absolutely nothing luxurious about the E9X interior. I don't know what's worse, the cupholders designed by a kindergarten student or the big cavity created by the iDrive controller that is not there.

Perhaps it's the tiny vents designed for a dwarf, or maybe it's the windshield designed to chip when a speck of dust hits it. The interior looks like it's covered in dog skin, and the carpet is most definitely thinner and flatter.

Every F30 owner also owned the crappy old rattlebox E9X. You can't fool us, chief.

BJ
Yea, out of all the areas to make a case of the E90 > F30, the interior is not one of them ...
boltjaM3s commented:
July 22, 2013, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
Yea, out of all the areas to make a case of the E90 > F30, the interior is not one of them ...
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

The laggy engine, the lack of torque, the awkward transmission, the stripped cockpit, the missing standard features, the soft windshield, the creaks & rattles, the noisy climate control system, the tiny radio display, and the Pachinko-machine Bangle styling is all (thankfully) a thing of the past and the one purportedly detrimental area that has some merit is slowly growing on me as well- the supposedly "numb" steering is really much easier on the muscles especially on driveways and parking lots and has the type of power steering feel of a proper luxury car.

At the time I owned my E90 I loved it, but it's been eclipsed by the F30 and that party's over. As soon as CPO F30's hit the aftermarket, all these E90 cheapskates will sing it's praises. I should take names, it'll be fun to expose them in 24 months.

BJ
johnc_22 commented:
July 22, 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The materials are exactly the same.
BJ
OK
EstorilF30 commented:
July 22, 2013, 10:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

The laggy engine, the lack of torque, the awkward transmission, the stripped cockpit, the missing standard features, the soft windshield, the creaks & rattles, the noisy climate control system, the tiny radio display, and the Pachinko-machine Bangle styling is all (thankfully) a thing of the past and the one purportedly detrimental area that has some merit is slowly growing on me as well- the supposedly "numb" steering is really much easier on the muscles especially on driveways and parking lots and has the type of power steering feel of a proper luxury car.

At the time I owned my E90 I loved it, but it's been eclipsed by the F30 and that party's over. As soon as CPO F30's hit the aftermarket, all these E90 cheapskates will sing it's praises. I should take names, it'll be fun to expose them in 24 months.

BJ
I was agreeing with you
boltjaM3s commented:
July 22, 2013, 11:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
I was agreeing with you
I know.

I was elaborating.

BJ
Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:23 am

I have driven over 8 different F30 328i and 335i. The longest one was at my home for 3 weeks almost.

So you give it a rest if you can't tell the difference between hard plastic that is used in F30 vs. not the hard plastic in E90.

Also, your attempt to post a picture of a E90 sedan does not show material quality feels. Maybe your eyes are extra sensitive where they can do the job of feeling sensation and eyesight.

All you are showing is the improved interior design out look not quality. Seriously, please think before you post other wise it makes you look ignorant.

Also, there are plenty of areas where E90 is superior to the F30. The most important being driving dynamics and the steering feel and feedback. It is not just what I believe or few others most publications that test these vehicles will say the same thing. Your denying it makes you seem like you are in denial of plain facts and nothing more.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree at this point because due to your purchase of a F30 you are becoming defensive and not looking at things objectively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Give it a rest, we all owned E90's, the interior materials are the same.

BJ
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

The laggy engine, the lack of torque, the awkward transmission, the stripped cockpit, the missing standard features, the soft windshield, the creaks & rattles, the noisy climate control system, the tiny radio display, and the Pachinko-machine Bangle styling is all (thankfully) a thing of the past and the one purportedly detrimental area that has some merit is slowly growing on me as well- the supposedly "numb" steering is really much easier on the muscles especially on driveways and parking lots and has the type of power steering feel of a proper luxury car.

At the time I owned my E90 I loved it, but it's been eclipsed by the F30 and that party's over. As soon as CPO F30's hit the aftermarket, all these E90 cheapskates will sing it's praises. I should take names, it'll be fun to expose them in 24 months.

BJ
Body roll. The F30 has plenty of it, the e90 has none of it.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:47 am

With all due respect I am not the one who brought WRX in this discussion you did. Yes, it is $10K more because of its refinement over WRX. Yet, the point in case I was making to you has nothing to do with it. Because the point was and still is that BMW is fully capable of making equally hard core cars as any WRX or EVO without them feeling crappy and cheap.

I think you are losing focus of what we were discussing.

All, I was saying is that BMW is fully capable of making hardcore cars like 1M. This is what made BMW famous making hardcore sports luxury sedans and sporty luxury 4 seater with great driving dynamics. Instead of this recent trend that focus too much attention on making iphone on 4 wheels so the dash strokers are happy.

The 300 and so 1M sold out in no time here in NA. market. People willing to pay well over the asking price. So many people want cars like that which are focused first and fore most on original core BMW beliefs of "Driving Dynamics" and then let the pieces fall where they belong. I am not against efficiency but not at the expense of driving dynamics. Also, I can give up some dash stroking in favor of greater steering feel and feed back.

There is demand for what BMW is good at and that is not making sporty Toyota's. The loyal enthusiast are the driving force behind every successful niche car maker as is the case with BMW and Porsche. I guess BMW's desire of becoming a new Toyota is blinding their efforts. In their effort to appeal to masses they will be losing support of the core enthusiast who will be here well after the Toyota badged into BMW desiring crowd is gone in search of the next best iphone on wheels.

I am all for change but when it is going back wards in terms of driving dynamics in one of my favorite automobile marquees. Then I will not stand for it and will raise my discontent with it a loyal enthusiast who stood by the brand for more then a decade with his wallet and multiple BMW models in his garage.

I think if you can't understand my point despite my explaining it multiple times then my effort is wasted. I guess we will leave it at that we will agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
A 1M (135M)? First of all they are more than $10K more than a WRX-STI, second, good luck finding one. M cars are a different animal. A decently optioned E90 M3 was $70K while a decently optioned E90 335 with Sport was under $50K. Totally different markets.
Michael Schott commented:
July 23, 2013, 8:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
With all due respect I am not the one who brought WRX in this discussion you did. Yes, it is $10K more because of its refinement over WRX. Yet, the point in case I was making to you has nothing to do with it. Because the point was and still is that BMW is fully capable of making equally hard core cars as any WRX or EVO without them feeling crappy and cheap.

I think you are losing focus of what we were discussing.

All, I was saying is that BMW is fully capable of making hardcore cars like 1M. This is what made BMW famous making hardcore sports luxury sedans and sporty luxury 4 seater with great driving dynamics. Instead of this recent trend that focus too much attention on making iphone on 4 wheels so the dash strokers are happy.

The 300 and so 1M sold out in no time here in NA. market. People willing to pay well over the asking price. So many people want cars like that which are focused first and fore most on original core BMW beliefs of "Driving Dynamics" and then let the pieces fall where they belong. I am not against efficiency but not at the expense of driving dynamics. Also, I can give up some dash stroking in favor of greater steering feel and feed back.

There is demand for what BMW is good at and that is not making sporty Toyota's. The loyal enthusiast are the driving force behind every successful niche car maker as is the case with BMW and Porsche. I guess BMW's desire of becoming a new Toyota is blinding their efforts. In their effort to appeal to masses they will be losing support of the core enthusiast who will be here well after the Toyota badged into BMW desiring crowd is gone in search of the next best iphone on wheels.

I am all for change but when it is going back wards in terms of driving dynamics in one of my favorite automobile marquees. Then I will not stand for it and will raise my discontent with it a loyal enthusiast who stood by the brand for more then a decade with his wallet and multiple BMW models in his garage.

I think if you can't understand my point despite my explaining it multiple times then my effort is wasted. I guess we will leave it at that we will agree to disagree.
My point is that BMW does not make hard core sport sedans or at least hasn't in a long time. The 135M is not hard core, whatever that means and the M3 most certainly is a great all around car. It's not hard core.

But let's not talk about the extreme part of the line. The bread and butter 3 series has always been the more basic models, whether equipped with sport pack or not. None of these are hard core. They are family cars that are among the sportiest in their class. The F30 is not as engaging as past models but it is just as capable while being a better all around car. I may lament the extra body roll,the EPS and the loss of the I6 but for all but the most enthusiast drivers its a great car. Remember, it's a daily driver not a niche sports car.
Saintor commented:
July 23, 2013, 8:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

BJ
As most Lexus owners.

"Dynamically" the E90 is definitely superior to the F30.

"Dynamically" is the raison d'Ítre of a BMW.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 23, 2013, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

The laggy engine, the lack of torque, the awkward transmission, the stripped cockpit, the missing standard features, the soft windshield, the creaks & rattles, the noisy climate control system, the tiny radio display, and the Pachinko-machine Bangle styling is all (thankfully) a thing of the past and the one purportedly detrimental area that has some merit is slowly growing on me as well- the supposedly "numb" steering is really much easier on the muscles especially on driveways and parking lots and has the type of power steering feel of a proper luxury car.

At the time I owned my E90 I loved it, but it's been eclipsed by the F30 and that party's over. As soon as CPO F30's hit the aftermarket, all these E90 cheapskates will sing it's praises. I should take names, it'll be fun to expose them in 24 months.

BJ
How about handling, steering or braking?

"What Needs Work: Doesn't handle, steer or stop as well as its predecessor...."
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/...oad-test2.html
MercF30_GA commented:
July 23, 2013, 9:38 am

Being another one that just made the seamless jump from an 2011 328i to a 2013 328i I will say there is not one single thing I miss about my previous car. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed every minute of time I spent behind the wheel of it but in the few short days I've had my new baby I can say it's definitely an evolution in the model series.

If I had to knit pick two small things that my outgoing model did better a little better I will say it's this:

1. The engine was much more quiet around idle. My wife is already complaining that the new one sounds like a diesel

2. The steering on my previous model did feel "tighter" and perhaps added a little bit more of a sporty feel. Now I will say also before I pass this judgement completely that I am still in the break in period and havent given her a good ole romp yet. But in the spirited cornering I have done the F30 definitely is very well composed upon egress and digress of turns and the steering is much more effortless.

Also my previous car did not have nav but it did have the oyster interior with the dark wood grain and I will say that the understated clean lines of the minimalist previous interior does have something of a timeless appeal to me. The new interior is a sculpted contemporary work of art in it's own way, but much more complex.

This is just merely my opinion. The take away really is that I just fall in love with every new rendition of BMW I've owned and it's the only car that makes me feel like a gitty school girl that just got her license for the first time and is anxious to scream justin bieber at the top of her lungs as she passes by her school friends in her new car daddy just bought.
bayoucity commented:
July 23, 2013, 12:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I can't think of a single area in which the E90 is the superior of the F30, not one.

The laggy engine, the lack of torque, the awkward transmission, the stripped cockpit, the missing standard features, the soft windshield, the creaks & rattles, the noisy climate control system, the tiny radio display, and the Pachinko-machine Bangle styling is all (thankfully) a thing of the past and the one purportedly detrimental area that has some merit is slowly growing on me as well- the supposedly "numb" steering is really much easier on the muscles especially on driveways and parking lots and has the type of power steering feel of a proper luxury car.
...

BJ
BJ, have you never owned 335i or 335d? Seriously, that "numb" steering is great for estrogen filled drivers. There sure are tons of metrosexual men sweating about turning HPS these days.
f30jojo commented:
July 23, 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Give it a rest, we all owned E90's, the interior materials are the same.

BJ
+1
plus WHO said a 3er is a luxury car in the first place?? to me a 5 series entry level lux, and the 7's are true luxury uber-sedans. to me, a f30 in particular, is a higly engineered sedan, but a luxury car it is not. my e60 is certainly comfortable, but a luxury sedan??? not too sure about that. my wifes f30 has alot of gizmos and gadgets that even my e60 doesnt have. i think people are getting confused about what luxury is. gadgets and connectivity do not equal luxury. again to me the only true luxury cars out there are merc S calss, bmw 7's, audi A8, and perhaps high end lexus's. just my 2cents.
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoucity View Post
BJ, have you never owned 335i or 335d? Seriously, that "numb" steering is great for estrogen filled drivers. There sure are tons of metrosexual men sweating about turning HPS these days.
I bet your the guy that still has 69 on his softball jersey and thinks it is funny. Any more witty original quips like that?

I crack up when I see other forum members making remarks like this as for some reason women can't be good drivers or car enthusiasts. My wife wanted to help me put in the JB4 Stage 1 and couldn't wait to see what it could do after it was installed. She also convinced me to buy the bimmer as I was on the fence about spending the money on it. Glad she talked me in to it as it is the best overall and most fun car I've ever had.

I have volunteered at a local police department for the last four years and I am reasonably sure that some of our female officers could out drive most people on this forum while they are in their Crown Vic squads against members Bimmers. It is also funny to see guys get lippy with them and they are soon begging for mercy inside of five seconds when they are subdued for arrest.
captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I bet your the guy that still has 69 on his softball jersey and thinks it is funny. Any more witty original quips like that?

I crack up when I see other forum members making remarks like this as for some reason women can't be good drivers or car enthusiasts. My wife wanted to help me put in the JB4 Stage 1 and couldn't wait to see what it could do after it was installed. She also convinced me to buy the bimmer as I was on the fence about spending the money on it. Glad she talked me in to it as it is the best overall and most fun car I've ever had.

I have volunteered at a local police department for the last four years and I am reasonably sure that some of our female officers could out drive most people on this forum while they are in their Crown Vic squads against members Bimmers. It is also funny to see guys get lippy with them and they are soon begging for mercy inside of five seconds when they are subdued for arrest.
Here is a video of driver Davina Galica in James Hunt's F1 car.
She was 65 at the time.
Davina is one of a handful of women who competed in Formula 1 (she drive for Surtees)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pm6uecszDE
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:43 pm

Sweet!
chris328 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I bet your the guy that still has 69 on his softball jersey and thinks it is funny. Any more witty original quips like that?

I crack up when I see other forum members making remarks like this as for some reason women can't be good drivers or car enthusiasts. My wife wanted to help me put in the JB4 Stage 1 and couldn't wait to see what it could do after it was installed. She also convinced me to buy the bimmer as I was on the fence about spending the money on it. Glad she talked me in to it as it is the best overall and most fun car I've ever had.

I have volunteered at a local police department for the last four years and I am reasonably sure that some of our female officers could out drive most people on this forum while they are in their Crown Vic squads against members Bimmers. It is also funny to see guys get lippy with them and they are soon begging for mercy inside of five seconds when they are subdued for arrest.
so you're a rent-a-cop? i always think it's funny seeing these guys try and be cops, when cops themselves are just grown up jocks who never could find a way after high school to boss people around
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
so you're a rent-a-cop? i always think it's funny seeing these guys try and be cops, when cops themselves are just grown up jocks who never could find a way after high school to boss people around
No I am a Reserve Officer. I have put in over 1500 hours of unpaid time in to ride with officers or help patrol during lower staffed times to help out in the community. We do a variety of tasks and have helped out during some tense moments. Hence VOLUNTEER. Any other stereotypes you want to throw out there. I've heard them all so try harder next time with a funnier insult. I actually would appreciate hearing one I haven't heard to share with my cop buddies. It is like any other profession, you have your great cops, mediocre cops, and cops that shouldn't have jobs.
chris328 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:53 pm

funnier is wrong. you're supposed to say "more funny".

cops dont know simple grammar, heard that one?
chris328 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:54 pm

in all fairness though i know some cops that are cool
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
funnier is wrong. you're supposed to say "more funny".

cops dont know simple grammar, heard that one?
Funny, the guy correcting me doesn't now how to capitalize his starting words in a sentence.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 3:12 pm

You only build fast cars that turn left. So you are hardly going to be a good judge of how a car handles. This explains why there has only been 1 US F1 World Champion.

Just Saying.


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
You only build fast cars that turn left. So you are hardly going to be a good judge of how a car handles. This explains why there has only been 1 US F1 World Champion.

Just Saying.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Have you not seen cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Mustang Boss that seem to both hurt on the E92 M3, or the Caddy CTS-V which had the record for fastest RING time as a production sedan for awhile-beating the E60 M5?

From what I remember, the ring has a lot more than just left turns.

Maybe you need to do a bit more research
captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 3:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
You only build fast cars that turn left. So you are hardly going to be a good judge of how a car handles. This explains why there has only been 1 US F1 World Champion.

Just Saying.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Actually there have been two.

CA
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 3:44 pm

Actually one. Andretti was an Itallian immigrant who moved to US after the war.


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captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Actually one. Andretti was an Itallian immigrant who moved to US after the war.


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He was an American Citizen and is considered an American Champion.


And as long as we are being chauvinistic lets see who owns British car companies.

1. Jaguar - Tata of India
2. Rover - Tata of India
3. Rolls Royce - BMW
4. Bentley - Volkswagen
5. Aston Martin - Italian and Kuwaiti investment firms


CA
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:05 pm

USA = China


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Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
You only build fast cars that turn left. So you are hardly going to be a good judge of how a car handles. This explains why there has only been 1 US F1 World Champion.

Just Saying.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I used to be an idiot like you. Then I educated myself. Americans actually build quality cars nowadays.

-CTS-V
-Mustang Boss Laguna Seca
-Mustang GT track edition
-Mustang GT-500 (Ok, arguable.)
-Camaro SS 1LE
-Camaro ZL1
-C6 ZR1Corvette (8th fastest time on Nurburgring)
-C6 Z06 Corvette
-C7 Corvette (All signs point to GT-R like value and performance for the price.)
-Falcon Motorsports F7
-Mosler MT900s
-Rossion Automotive Q1
-Viper GTS
-Ford GT
-SSC Ultimate Aero
-Dodge Viper ACR (Currently has the 4th fastest time on the Nurburgring)

There's more, but I'm a lazy bastard.

So in short
Attachment 388149
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:11 pm

At least I broke up the my E90 is better than your F30.

Seems the burger munchers are easy to wind up. PMSL.


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keepittrill View Post
I used to be an idiot like you. Then I educated myself. Americans actually build quality cars nowadays.

-CTS-V
-Mustang Boss Laguna Seca
-Mustang GT track edition
-Mustang GT-500 (Ok, arguable.)
-Camaro SS 1LE
-Camaro ZL1
-C6 ZR1Corvette (8th fastest time on Nurburgring)
-C6 Z06 Corvette
-C7 Corvette (All signs point to GT-R like value and performance for the price.)
-Falcon Motorsports F7
-Mosler MT900s
-Rossion Automotive Q1
-Viper GTS
-SSC Ultimate Aero
-Dodge Viper ACR (Currently has the 4th fastest time on the Nurburgring)

There's more, but I'm a lazy bastard.

So in short
Attachment 388149
Yep, basically what I was getting at a couple posts above but without getting too specific.

http://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-t...times-top-100/
beden1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:30 pm

Roundel Weekly about the new F32 4 Series versus the F30:

In the last generation of the 3 Series-E90 sedan, E92 coupe, E93 convertible-the coupe was pretty much a two-door version of the four-door sedan. But the difference between the F30 3 Series-successor to the E90 sedan-and the F32 4 Series coupe is dramatic-and that's a good thing. Now it's a simple choice: Do you want a practical family car, or are you in the market for a sporting adventure? The 3 Series may carry on the "sport sedan" tradition that started with the BMW 2002, but the 4 Series makes the term sport coupe another term for sports car.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:32 pm

Not one of those sells well outside of the US. Nuff said!


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Not one of those sells well outside of the US. Nuff said!


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
For simple reasons:

-Gas prices-we pay very little
-Taxation, many countries tax larger engines which American Sporting cars usually have twice the engine size of other offerings.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:36 pm

Radical SR8 is a British sports car which just so happens to be the fastest production car to lap The Ring.


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Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Not one of those sells well outside of the US. Nuff said!


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Who cares? Teeth braces don't seem to sell very well outside the US, but they're necessary in some places. (I'm looking at you, England!) The US is the biggest car market in the world right now. Ford is the second best selling brand in Europe. It's obvious you're just an ignorant individual, so I'll let you get on with your life.
Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Radical SR8 is a British sports car which just so happens to be the fastest production car to lap The Ring.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Since when did this turn into British VS American cars? At least our companies own themselves. In fact, Ford had Aston Martin for quite a while.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Radical SR8 is a British sports car which just so happens to be the fastest production car to lap The Ring.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Have you looked at one? It's barely a car lol-no wind screen even. It's a few notches above a kit car.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:46 pm

It's better than the E90 vs F30 that's usually spouted on this forum. Anyway, I must apologise the Radical has been beaten.

What by? I hear you say.

Well it's British, it's not a notch above a kit car, (lame), its a McLaren P1.


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
It's better than the E90 vs F30 that's usually spouted on this forum. Anyway, I must apologise the Radical has been beaten.

What by? I hear you say.

Well it's British, it's not a notch above a kit car, (lame), its a McLaren P1.


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Maybe it will be better than the McLaren F1, you know the car with the BMW V12 :P
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:51 pm

And your point is?


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Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
It's better than the E90 vs F30 that's usually spouted on this forum. Anyway, I must apologise the Radical has been beaten.

What by? I hear you say.

Well it's British, it's not a notch above a kit car, (lame), its a McLaren P1.


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I think an indian company owns 50% of Mclaren LOL
beden1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keepittrill View Post
Since when did this turn into British VS American cars? At least our companies own themselves. In fact, Ford had Aston Martin for quite a while.
And Range Rover. I was looking at a new Land Rover last week and had the opportunity of talking cars with the owner of the dealership. He also had several vintage Jaguar XKEs on hand which I enjoyed. He told me that Ford saved Range Rover with the money and technology they poured into the company to modernize their manufacturing processes and improve all mechanical and electrical systems.

I guess the Americans are still good at making auto assembly lines work, and then some.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
And your point is?


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You have been babbling on about non sense for awhile now. I don't have to have a point either

You started out by saying American cars cannot handle-a very dated concept. There are plenty of cars on that 'Ring list that suggest otherwise.

That's all.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:01 pm

It is still built in the UK, seems that you are now backing my statement about Mr Andretti.


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Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
It is still built in the UK, seems that you are now backing my statement about Mr Andretti.


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Because cars and people are the same thing, right?


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Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:05 pm

Face it. You have no car heritage, aside from Mr Shelby, may he rest in peace, even Detroit has gone bust.


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Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Face it. You have no car heritage, aside from Mr Shelby, may he rest in peace, even Detroit has gone bust.


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Because the Corvette, Viper and all the pony cars have no heritage, right?


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Face it. You have no car heritage, aside from Mr Shelby, may he rest in peace, even Detroit has gone bust.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Without Detroit(Ford Model T-the assembly line etc) your car heritage would be comical. Brush up a bit on your history.

Detroit going into bankruptcy is a long time coming, decades of mismanagement. GM came out of it leaner, stronger, smarter. Detroit will come out of it just fine as well.

I feel as though you are bored and want to say obnoxious things just to rouse a reaction-reminding me of a drunk buffoon at a bar. I thought the Americans were supposed to be the buffoons?
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:13 pm

Anyhow, I'm going to code my ASS coz I'm too dumb to understand how it works.


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jjrandorin commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:24 pm

I got the impression that bratters was just trying to turn all the vitrol to something else more productive, like radical nationalism
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:30 pm

Just having a bit of fun with you guys. I didn't realise that you had no sense of humour. Just a bit of light relief from the usual stuff on this forum.

PS- I do think that the cars you have mentioned are now worthy contenders and clearly up there with the best. I still say that Andretti was an Italian F1 World Champion though.


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jjrandorin commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Just having a bit of fun with you guys. I didn't realise that you had no sense of humour. Just a bit of light relief from the usual stuff on this forum.

PS- I do think that the cars you have mentioned are now worthy contenders and clearly up there with the best. I still say that Andretti was an Italian F1 World Champion though.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
My "radical nationalism" statement was also ment as a joke, because I took almost everything you posted as a joke aimed at diverting the rhetoric this thread had stooped to. Hopefully you took it that way, if not, I am sorry. I still remember you posting on July 4th " Happy rebellion day!" which I thought was funny as hell, lol.
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:38 pm

Of course I took this as a joke. Keep the banter flowing.

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captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Of course I took this as a joke. Keep the banter flowing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Just having a bit of fun with you guys. I didn't realise that you had no sense of humour. Just a bit of light relief from the usual stuff on this forum.

PS- I do think that the cars you have mentioned are now worthy contenders and clearly up there with the best. I still say that Andretti was an Italian F1 World Champion though.


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Just to show there are no hard feelings I am replacing by 750Lix with a Humber Super Snipe.

CA
Bratters123 commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:45 pm

Great choice. Beware! The steering is vague and lacks feel. Worse than the F30 I hear.


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captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Great choice. Beware! The steering is vague and lacks feel. Worse than the F30 I hear.


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If that is even possible!


CA
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratters123 View Post
Just having a bit of fun with you guys. I didn't realise that you had no sense of humour. Just a bit of light relief from the usual stuff on this forum.

PS- I do think that the cars you have mentioned are now worthy contenders and clearly up there with the best. I still say that Andretti was an Italian F1 World Champion though.


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I did not realize I could not take a joke, I was giving it back to you just fine-no banging my keyboard in anger lol.
captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 5:55 pm



Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 6:54 pm

I think that is where we disagree.

I believe BMW in history is known to make the most hard core sports luxury sedans. Please, show me another maker who did it better then BMW. It was very much BMW niche before companies like Toyota and Nissan as well as others tried to copy that magic.

So you are not accurate on niche car maker thing. The BMW started the trend on luxury sports sedans that satisfied the most hard core enthusiasts.

I asked you before point me to another maker who has built more hard core luxury sports sedans than BMW all the way up till past 5 decades. Your response was to point out WRX which was neither luxury nor in the same class.

However, I played along and pointed you to a modern day 1M which is as hardcore as any modern WRX. Your reply it is $10K more. My reply for obvious reasons as 1M is more refined yet as aggressive and probably more fun to drive due to its RWD setup.

I think at this point we are running around in circles as your argument keeps shifting.

I am not even so sure why we are having this discussion when you believe that F30 is more soft core and lack that extra bit that made E90 a better choice in driving dynamics.

Take care



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
My point is that BMW does not make hard core sport sedans or at least hasn't in a long time. The 135M is not hard core, whatever that means and the M3 most certainly is a great all around car. It's not hard core.

But let's not talk about the extreme part of the line. The bread and butter 3 series has always been the more basic models, whether equipped with sport pack or not. None of these are hard core. They are family cars that are among the sportiest in their class. The F30 is not as engaging as past models but it is just as capable while being a better all around car. I may lament the extra body roll,the EPS and the loss of the I6 but for all but the most enthusiast drivers its a great car. Remember, it's a daily driver not a niche sports car.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:12 pm

I am not so sure about the point you are trying to make?

I have had a E65 7 series, E60 5 series, E92 3 series in my garage. While the 7 series is very much more luxurious in its interior design. The plastic used in E92 interior are not cheap or hugely inferior in feel or finish.

I agree with you that F30 has gizmos and you can't confuse those with luxury all the time. The F30 uses inferior hard plastic in interior which takes away from the quality feel. The E60 and E9x both are better in this regards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
+1
plus WHO said a 3er is a luxury car in the first place?? to me a 5 series entry level lux, and the 7's are true luxury uber-sedans. to me, a f30 in particular, is a higly engineered sedan, but a luxury car it is not. my e60 is certainly comfortable, but a luxury sedan??? not too sure about that. my wifes f30 has alot of gizmos and gadgets that even my e60 doesnt have. i think people are getting confused about what luxury is. gadgets and connectivity do not equal luxury. again to me the only true luxury cars out there are merc S calss, bmw 7's, audi A8, and perhaps high end lexus's. just my 2cents.
captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I think that is where we disagree.

I believe BMW in history is known to make the most hard core sports luxury sedans. Please, show me another maker who did it better then BMW. It was very much BMW niche before companies like Toyota and Nissan as well as others tried to copy that magic.

So you are not accurate on niche car maker thing. The BMW started the trend on luxury sports sedans that satisfied the most hard core enthusiasts.

I asked you before point me to another maker who has built more hard core luxury sports sedans than BMW all the way up till past 5 decades. Your response was to point out WRX which was neither luxury nor in the same class.
JHowever, I played along and pointed you to a modern day 1M which is as hardcore as any modern WRX. Your reply it is $10K more. My reply for obvious reasons as 1M is more refined yet as aggressive and probably more fun to drive due to its RWD setup.

I think at this point we are running around in circles as your argument keeps shifting.

I am not even so sure why we are having this discussion when you believe that F30 is more soft core and lack that extra bit that made E90 a better choice in driving dynamics.

Take care
The BMW 1600 and 2002 (which were precursors to the 3 Series) were iconic cars but they were by no means the first sports sedans. Jaguar, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Saab and others were building sports sedans before the BMW 1600 was introduced.

CA


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captainaudio commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:42 pm

BMW has been the segment leader and the 3 Series has been the benchmark for years but they did not invent the concept of them sports sedan.

CA


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Michael Schott commented:
July 23, 2013, 9:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I think that is where we disagree.

I believe BMW in history is known to make the most hard core sports luxury sedans. Please, show me another maker who did it better then BMW. It was very much BMW niche before companies like Toyota and Nissan as well as others tried to copy that magic.

So you are not accurate on niche car maker thing. The BMW started the trend on luxury sports sedans that satisfied the most hard core enthusiasts.

I asked you before point me to another maker who has built more hard core luxury sports sedans than BMW all the way up till past 5 decades. Your response was to point out WRX which was neither luxury nor in the same class.

However, I played along and pointed you to a modern day 1M which is as hardcore as any modern WRX. Your reply it is $10K more. My reply for obvious reasons as 1M is more refined yet as aggressive and probably more fun to drive due to its RWD setup.

I think at this point we are running around in circles as your argument keeps shifting.

I am not even so sure why we are having this discussion when you believe that F30 is more soft core and lack that extra bit that made E90 a better choice in driving dynamics.

Take care
You and I have different definitions of hard core. The reason I brought up the WRX is it's truly a hard core sport sedan. It's raw and a bit rough but a true sport sedan. A BMW on the other hand is a luxury sport sedan with civilized manners and a compliant ride even considering the RFT's.

And you have a talent for completely twisting what people say to make your point. That's not at all why I brought up the WRX. Look at post 102 in this thread for the correct context. And my original take was that the F30 is more refined than the E90. That's my entire point.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 23, 2013, 10:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post


OOOHHHH LLAAAWWWDDDDYYY. Gorgeous. Every single time I see it.
beden1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post


It may be just the picture, or me, but that is the ugliest car I've seen in a very long time.
Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 11:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It may be just the picture, or me, but that is the ugliest car I've seen in a very long time.
The color es no bueno.


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bighorns commented:
July 23, 2013, 11:47 pm

I agree, it's the color. Black, white, yellow, or red would look 100 times better!
Keepittrill commented:
July 23, 2013, 11:52 pm

Jaguars in white <3 (Actually, any car in white <3 )


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boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I have driven over 8 different F30 328i and 335i. The longest one was at my home for 3 weeks almost.

So you give it a rest if you can't tell the difference between hard plastic that is used in F30 vs. not the hard plastic in E90.

Also, your attempt to post a picture of a E90 sedan does not show material quality feels. Maybe your eyes are extra sensitive where they can do the job of feeling sensation and eyesight.
All you are showing is the improved interior design out look not quality. Seriously, please think before you post other wise it makes you look ignorant.

Also, there are plenty of areas where E90 is superior to the F30. The most important being driving dynamics and the steering feel and feedback. It is not just what I believe or few others most publications that test these vehicles will say the same thing. Your denying it makes you seem like you are in denial of plain facts and nothing more.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree at this point because due to your purchase of a F30 you are becoming defensive and not looking at things objectively.
You have this completely backwards, and if you knew me you'd understand why:

To me, the F30 is a Toyota Camry. I can afford a car 5x as expensive if I wanted to keep up with my co-workers and neighbors. I buy 3 Series because it possesses the minimum amount of status necessary to maintain the membership at the country club and allow my sons to date wealthy daughters.

So the last thing I am concerned with is "validating" my purchase decision or winning some silly internet battle. All I'm concerned with, in terms of this discussion, is the truth, and as someone who has more seat time in E9X's and F30's than you do, I'm not going to sit here and be called out for lacking "objectivity".

The interior materials are the same, chief. If you look at the thousands of dollars of additional standard equipment BMW lavished on the F30 you'd see pretty quickly that saving fifty cents on some PVC would be the last thing on their minds. And, candidly, if the only valid complaint about the F30 is the feel of some plastic that we never touch then BMW succeeded beyond anyone's dreams with the new ride.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Body roll. The F30 has plenty of it, the e90 has none of it.
No doubt, but in real-world conditions as someone who is commuting 400 miles weekly on curvy local Bergen County roads, speedy interstates, and windy old-school parkways like the Saw Mill or Henry Hudson or Harlem River Drive I only hit a curve at enough speed to notice the body roll maybe 2x a week. Out of thousands of turns, two might make me disappointed.

Meanwhile, the torque and the burst that I get as I fly past slow moving traffic or weave effortlessly through trailers and panel vans is so smooth and so crushingly effective it makes my E90 feel like it was a truck. It was sluggish and imprecise. The F30 is just damned quick and smooth, I'll take 1000 moments like that in a given week against the 2 moments of body roll any day.

BJ
Keepittrill commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You have this completely backwards, and if you knew me you'd understand why:

To me, the F30 is a Toyota Camry. I can afford a car 5x as expensive if I wanted to keep up with my co-workers and neighbors. I buy 3 Series because it possesses the minimum amount of status necessary to maintain the membership at the country club and allow my sons to date wealthy daughters.

So the last thing I am concerned with is "validating" my purchase decision or winning some silly internet battle. All I'm concerned with, in terms of this discussion, is the truth, and as someone who has more seat time in E9X's and F30's than you do, I'm not going to sit here and be called out for lacking "objectivity".

The interior materials are the same, chief. If you look at the thousands of dollars of additional standard equipment BMW lavished on the F30 you'd see pretty quickly that saving fifty cents on some PVC would be the last thing on their minds. And, candidly, if the only valid complaint about the F30 is the feel of some plastic that we never touch then BMW succeeded beyond anyone's dreams with the new ride.

BJ
Are those really the type of girls you want your son dating?


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boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The F30 is not as engaging as past models but it is just as capable while being a better all around car. I may lament the extra body roll,the EPS and the loss of the I6 but for all but the most enthusiast drivers its a great car. Remember, it's a daily driver not a niche sports car.
Should be a sticky.

Not sure why a $50,000 German luxury car designed for 50 year olds is being judged as if it is some $20,000 Japanese sports car designed for 20 year olds.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
As most Lexus owners.

"Dynamically" the E90 is definitely superior to the F30.

"Dynamically" is the raison d'Ítre of a BMW.
You drive the most vanilla E90 ever made so you're hardly the authority on what is/isn't suitable driving dynamics. If you cared this much, you'd have a 335i with a Sport package, not a 328i in base trim. They only cost $7,000 these days, not sure what you're waiting for.

Stop being sucked into the Ultimate Driving Machine vortex. That's a marketing slogan to convince your dad that he's driving the car you should be driving.

BJ
Saintor commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
It may be just the picture, or me, but that is the ugliest car I've seen in a very long time.
I have to agree. The color doesn't help; the new one will make forget this one fast.

Saintor commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You drive the most vanilla E90 ever made so you're hardly the authority on what is/isn't suitable driving dynamics. If you cared this much, you'd have a 335i with a Sport package, not a 328i in base trim. They only cost $7,000 these days, not sure what you're waiting for.

Stop being sucked into the Ultimate Driving Machine vortex. That's a marketing slogan to convince your dad that he's driving the car you should be driving.

BJ
You have no clue what you are talking about and your reply is kinda retard (again). BTW, my E90 has 5-6K$ of mods to make it dance/handle like a 3-series should (where my priorities are) and *it delivers*, otherwise I would gladly have replaced it. Of course since I have not much of a choice (no N20, thanks), my next F30 is likely to be a more expensive 335i. But I don't need 300HP to be happy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1
I guess we will have to agree to disagree at this point because due to your purchase of a F30 you are becoming defensive and not looking at things objectively.
That is correct. For some people, buying a F30 comes with a standard accessory.

captainaudio commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:41 am

.
captainaudio commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Never understood why Jaguar made the XKR-S in Italian Racing Red and French Racing Blue but not in British Raving Green. I drove a black one a couple of times and I think black was the best color for that car. It drove very well.


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bighorns commented:
July 24, 2013, 10:50 am

Not sure how I ended up in captainaudio's picture!?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 24, 2013, 12:18 pm

Oh God, the F type. I need new pants...
beden1 commented:
July 24, 2013, 1:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I have to agree. The color doesn't help; the new one will make forget this one fast.

That's really good looking. The other one looks like the intakes were just glued on, among other things that made the sum total a failure.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:54 pm

I have no doubt they were but neither of those companies were able to make it as huge of a success as BMW did in current modern day. I think BMW is name to reckon with when you specifically talk luxury sports sedans. Also, I was implying last 5 decades or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The BMW 1600 and 2002 (which were precursors to the 3 Series) were iconic cars but they were by no means the first sports sedans. Jaguar, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Saab and others were building sports sedans before the BMW 1600 was introduced.

CA


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Kayani_1 commented:
July 24, 2013, 9:23 pm

Maybe so, if you call hardcore unrefined and cheap then maybe...Yes, you are right our definitions are a bit different.

Because it does not always have to be that way. As is the case and point of 1M vs WRX-STi. One feels cheap and unrefined while the other does not. Yet the one that does not feel cheap and unrefined is no less hardcore fun performance machine.

In this regards we disagree again about the refinement of F30 vs E90. The F30 in 4 cylinder trim feels less refined engine wise compared to E90. The interior quality of plastic being used is of lower level. The suspension does not feel as buttoned down nor the steering feel inspires equal level of confidence.

Like I said we have discussed these things in detail are now going in circles. We agree that F30 does not poses the driving dynamics of E90. However, we do not see eye t eye on the merits of refinement and this is where our discussion is at this point.

So in the interest of focusing back on this so called refinement. Let me get this straight by making sure where you stand on these

#1. You do not believe NA inline-6 was smoother and more refined then the current 4 cylinder turbo.

#2. Have you physically inspected the plastic in both E90 interior vs. F30 interior. Because one is more softer to the touch while other feels rough and hard to the touch.


Now, these above points is where I would like to know where you stand.


Because, other then that we both agree on some of the other aspects. The F30 has an edge in more modern design interior. The 8-speed transmission in F30 328i is much superior to the 6-speed in E90 328i. The E90 has the edge in steering feel/feedback and feels more buttoned down and exhibits greater driving dynamics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You and I have different definitions of hard core. The reason I brought up the WRX is it's truly a hard core sport sedan. It's raw and a bit rough but a true sport sedan. A BMW on the other hand is a luxury sport sedan with civilized manners and a compliant ride even considering the RFT's.

And you have a talent for completely twisting what people say to make your point. That's not at all why I brought up the WRX. Look at post 102 in this thread for the correct context. And my original take was that the F30 is more refined than the E90. That's my entire point.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 10:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

In this regards we disagree again about the refinement of F30 vs E90. The F30 in 4 cylinder trim feels less refined engine wise compared to E90. The interior quality of plastic being used is of lower level. The suspension does not feel as buttoned down nor the steering feel inspires equal level of confidence.
You don't know a damned thing about refinement because you drive two completely unrefined cars. The E90 and E60 are from the Bangle-era mess with overdesigned exteriors that were horribly busy and underdesigned interiors that were horribly bland. They rattled, they bored, they tried too hard to be different for the sake of different, they are disappearing from roads in the hundreds every day so we don't have to look at them any more.

The 4 Cylinder blows the doors off the 6 Cylinder, the new auto transmission pulls like murder and it shift's smooth as butter, the interior materials are identical, and BMW has added $3000 worth of previous options as standard equipment.

The suspension is softer, but that's a good thing for those of us who's bones ached from the jarringly harsh E90. The steering is less connected, but that's a good thing for those of us who spend a lot of time in traffic, in parking lots, and in driveways and didn't appreciate the truck-like E90.

You are one of those people who got sucked into the Ultimate Driving Machine marketing ploy, fail to understand that you're driving cars designed for 47 and 52 year olds. These aren't Subaru's (LOL) not sure why you're the last to know.

BJ
Nordique commented:
July 24, 2013, 10:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't know a damned thing about refinement because you drive two completely unrefined cars. The E90 and E60 are from the Bangle-era mess with overdesigned exteriors that were horribly busy and underdesigned interiors that were horribly bland. They rattled, they bored, they tried too hard to be different for the sake of different, they are disappearing from roads in the hundreds every day so we don't have to look at them any more.

The 4 Cylinder blows the doors off the 6 Cylinder, the new auto transmission pulls like murder and it shift's smooth as butter, the interior materials are identical, and BMW has added $3000 worth of previous options as standard equipment.

The suspension is softer, but that's a good thing for those of us who's bones ached from the jarringly harsh E90. The steering is less connected, but that's a good thing for those of us who spend a lot of time in traffic, in parking lots, and in driveways and didn't appreciate the truck-like E90.

You are one of those people who got sucked into the Ultimate Driving Machine marketing ploy, fail to understand that you're driving cars designed for 47 and 52 year olds. These aren't Subaru's (LOL) not sure why you're the last to know.

BJ
Hey, nice to see the driving gloves come off! Mix it up! Can you drive an F30 as hard as earlier bimmers? Yes and perhaps more so. Do you get slammed as much, on every pothole, no! And who cares about the quality of plastic? We are here for Freude Am Fahren and only bimmers deliver.
boltjaM3s commented:
July 24, 2013, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Hey, nice to see the driving gloves come off! Mix it up! Can you drive an F30 as hard as earlier bimmers? Yes and perhaps more so. Do you get slammed as much, on every pothole, no! And who cares about the quality of plastic? We are here for Freude Am Fahren and only bimmers deliver.
Right on, bro. Let's bury this "inferior interior" myth once and for all:

iDrive as standard equipment.
Premium sound system as standard equipment.
HD Radio as standard equipment.
Bluetooth as standard equipment.
BMW Assist as standard equipment.
Instrument cluster with enhanced contents.
Black plastic reduction on the center stack.
Gloss chrome console trim.
Aluminum electronic auto shifter.
Thicker, contoured steering wheel.
Enhanced ambient lighting with red/white option.
Superior cup holders w/tray cover option.
Larger air vents for superior cooling.
Curved instrumentaion surfacing for cockpit feel.
Hidden compartment beneath headlamp switch.
Auto dimming exterior mirrors
Auto dimming rearview mirror
Universal garage door opener
Power seats w/memory
Split & fold down rear seats

Good lord. "Cheap materials"? LOLZ. What? Who?

And as far as 'value' goes, a 2009 Post-LCI E90 had an MSRP of $33,600. The 2013 F30 has an MSRP of $36,850.

Using an inflation calculator, $33,600 in 2009 is equal to $36,483 in 2013. So that laundry list of standard features and improvements I posted above has a true out-of-pocket real-world incremental cost of $367.

You can talk about "lesser materials" all you want. I'll take the iDrive, the BMW Assist, the Bluetooth, the garage door opener, the dimming mirrors, the memory seats, the split rear seat, the ambient lighting, and all the other goodies for $367. I'd say BMW isn't being "cheap" at all. "Oh, but the door panels that you never touch are made of lesser plastic". Wha? Yeah, okay.

BJ
enigma commented:
July 25, 2013, 1:27 am

The mods should close this thread pronto. It's like watching beating the dead horse in slow motion... repeatedly.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 25, 2013, 4:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't know a damned thing about refinement because you drive two completely unrefined cars. The E90 and E60 are from the Bangle-era mess with overdesigned exteriors that were horribly busy and underdesigned interiors that were horribly bland. They rattled, they bored, they tried too hard to be different for the sake of different, they are disappearing from roads in the hundreds every day so we don't have to look at them any more.

The 4 Cylinder blows the doors off the 6 Cylinder, the new auto transmission pulls like murder and it shift's smooth as butter, the interior materials are identical, and BMW has added $3000 worth of previous options as standard equipment.

The suspension is softer, but that's a good thing for those of us who's bones ached from the jarringly harsh E90. The steering is less connected, but that's a good thing for those of us who spend a lot of time in traffic, in parking lots, and in driveways and didn't appreciate the truck-like E90.

You are one of those people who got sucked into the Ultimate Driving Machine marketing ploy, fail to understand that you're driving cars designed for 47 and 52 year olds. These aren't Subaru's (LOL) not sure why you're the last to know.

BJ
It really does. The ZF 8 speed is a work of art.
Michael Schott commented:
July 25, 2013, 6:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Maybe so, if you call hardcore unrefined and cheap then maybe...Yes, you are right our definitions are a bit different.

Because it does not always have to be that way. As is the case and point of 1M vs WRX-STi. One feels cheap and unrefined while the other does not. Yet the one that does not feel cheap and unrefined is no less hardcore fun performance machine.

In this regards we disagree again about the refinement of F30 vs E90. The F30 in 4 cylinder trim feels less refined engine wise compared to E90. The interior quality of plastic being used is of lower level. The suspension does not feel as buttoned down nor the steering feel inspires equal level of confidence.

Like I said we have discussed these things in detail are now going in circles. We agree that F30 does not poses the driving dynamics of E90. However, we do not see eye t eye on the merits of refinement and this is where our discussion is at this point.

So in the interest of focusing back on this so called refinement. Let me get this straight by making sure where you stand on these

#1. You do not believe NA inline-6 was smoother and more refined then the current 4 cylinder turbo.

#2. Have you physically inspected the plastic in both E90 interior vs. F30 interior. Because one is more softer to the touch while other feels rough and hard to the touch.


Now, these above points is where I would like to know where you stand.


Because, other then that we both agree on some of the other aspects. The F30 has an edge in more modern design interior. The 8-speed transmission in F30 328i is much superior to the 6-speed in E90 328i. The E90 has the edge in steering feel/feedback and feels more buttoned down and exhibits greater driving dynamics.
Here's where I stand on these points:

1) Yes the I6 is more refined in feel than the N20 turbo. But the N20 makes more power, is a great 4 cylinder and just plain feels faster. I don't find it at as all unrefined as some. It would have been great if BMW could have developed a normally aspirated I6 with the power and fuel economy of the N20 but CAFE standards made that unrealistic. I'm perfectly satisfied with the N20.

2) I've driven an E90 for the last 6 years (a 2008 and now a 2011) so I am very familiar with the interior quality. I have a few hours behind the wheel of an F30 so I have a feel for the interior of this car. The F30 plastic on the console, which everyone seems to point out is hard. It's not a big deal to me. The design of the two models are completely different due to the iDrive controller and the placement of the cup holders. It's far from a deal breaker. I find the quality of some of the switches in the F30 to be inferior to the E90. Not GM cheap but a step down. Again, the functions are perfect and this is not close to a deal breaker. The overall design and functionality of the F30 interior is far more modern and superior to the E90. It's really no contest.

And my last comment for now is the F30 goes down the road in a more refined manner. It's smoother, more in control and less hectic. That is what I mean by more refined.

Now if BMW would tighten up the steering and reduce body roll, it would be a nearly perfect car.
K-A commented:
July 25, 2013, 6:53 am

BMW's ZF8 with SAT is the best tranny I've ever experienced. I think I even like it more than Porsche's PDK, or at least just as much (the PDK is pretty damn awesome, both are perfect "auto" tranny's).

The F30 is indeed no-contest more refined than the E90 as a whole, especially the exterior design and ride composure. The whole interior layout gives a more refined vibe but I do feel the plastics here and there are a step back. BMW's as a whole have been improving rapidly in interior quality since the F Chassis cars came out, but I and many do feel the F30 is a step back in the material quality regard. A little too blatant in plastic-material cost cutting, and too uncharacteristically unlike its bigger F Chassis brothers in refinement and finish.

As for the N20, it's a luxurious motor in the performance sense, i.e it's effortless, however it's not a very luxurious motor in terms of vibrations and sound. The N/A I6 really felt "expensive" to match an "expensive" car, the N20 doesn't "feel" "expensive" to me, however it performs (in the 3-Series, not so much in the heavier 5-Series) in a way that translates that the company behind it is capable of (and does) making the best engines in the world. IMO to get the true BMW experience, that distinctively silky-smooth yet lusciously-growly I6 is a key element, and it never loses its composure or sounds offensive (instead it sounds riveting) like the 4-cylinder does at idle and when straining (or when the ASS sends shivers across the car due to its startup nature). I6's being inherently balanced never send a shiver into the cabins behind them, which cannot be said about the N20, who even on the more isolated 5-Series can be "felt" inside the cabin.

E90 VS F30 fights here tend to get extremely one-sided in views IMO.
Saintor commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:04 am

Quote:
The interior quality of plastic being used is of lower level.
Sorry but I'll give the F30 the nod for the overall interior. It is not like if the E90 plastic felt great .... it was clearly a downgrade from the E46.

Quote:
It would have been great if BMW could have developed a normally aspirated I6 with the power and fuel economy of the N20 but CAFE standards made that unrealistic.
You are overlooking that the EPA figures for the 328i/335i are exactly the same.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....32904&id=33054

Yes it would have been possible a normally aspirated I6 with 250-270HP with similar fuel economy. Asian carmakers are pretty close, are not even using direct injection and using regular instead of premium, *costs less to run*.

The 6-cyl. is one big factor that separated BMW from the rest in the entry-level luxo segment. At least it is not dead although it is more $ to get one.
minn19 commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Sorry but I'll give the F30 the nod for the overall interior. It is not like if the E90 plastic felt great .... it was clearly a downgrade from the E46.



You are overlooking that the EPA figures for the 328i/335i are exactly the same.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....32904&id=33054

Yes it would have been possible a normally aspirated I6 with 250-270HP with similar fuel economy. Asian carmakers are pretty close, are not even using direct injection and using regular instead of premium, *costs less to run*.

The 6-cyl. is one big factor that separated BMW from the rest in the entry-level luxo segment. At least it is not dead although it is more $ to get one.
Get the 6 if you want while you can. I have a feeling that won't be around for very much longer either. CAFE isn't just about MPG, but overall emissions also. I get your points between the two engines and agree with you about some of the N20's faults, but I think it is an amazing engine. I think we have to remember that BMW and other auto makers are looking down the road at what is coming for regulations. Especially in the EU who politically are not car friendly. Fairly recently there has been talk from some of the more extreme politicians of banning some sports cars. As a car lover and enthusiast I am glad BMW and others are making engines like this so in the future we can still have some fun cars...hopefully.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Here's where I stand on these points:

1) Yes the I6 is more refined in feel than the N20 turbo. But the N20 makes more power, is a great 4 cylinder and just plain feels faster. I don't find it at as all unrefined as some. It would have been great if BMW could have developed a normally aspirated I6 with the power and fuel economy of the N20 but CAFE standards made that unrealistic. I'm perfectly satisfied with the N20.

2) I've driven an E90 for the last 6 years (a 2008 and now a 2011) so I am very familiar with the interior quality. I have a few hours behind the wheel of an F30 so I have a feel for the interior of this car. The F30 plastic on the console, which everyone seems to point out is hard. It's not a big deal to me. The design of the two models are completely different due to the iDrive controller and the placement of the cup holders. It's far from a deal breaker. I find the quality of some of the switches in the F30 to be inferior to the E90. Not GM cheap but a step down. Again, the functions are perfect and this is not close to a deal breaker. The overall design and functionality of the F30 interior is far more modern and superior to the E90. It's really no contest.

And my last comment for now is the F30 goes down the road in a more refined manner. It's smoother, more in control and less hectic. That is what I mean by more refined.

Now if BMW would tighten up the steering and reduce body roll, it would be a nearly perfect car.
I have been a bit quiet lately by choice.

I am less and less interested in the repetition of these same discussions.

I also have been having fits where I am less than smitten with the F30.

But I will give you some insight into my day with the car yesterday.

I have been driving the Roadster a lot, the F30 has been sitting. I even took off the BMS tune and sold it to fund the engine rebuild of the E36/7, after all the F30 was just sitting.

So now the car is 100% stock with just wheels/tires and springs, the trilogy I do to any car-especially one with run-flats.

Now I keep getting compliments on how the F30 looks, it's the MSport pack, the color, and the wheels. Went to the Sands and the valet lit up, said aww man, MSport, right color, perfect wheels...this is a guy who parked Lambos and 911s seconds before. Also happened when I got gas the same day, guy raved about the looks.

It took me awhile to warm up, but I am officially on board with the looks of MY car. Do I get hot and bothered over the base ho hum car, nope. But mine, I keep doing the second look over my shoulder. Does that make me biased, a fanboi? No, I just like where my car is at in the looks department.

The driving...

This is where things get more complicated

I drove all the way to Maryland yesterday(215 miles each way) to acquire a model car collection.

I drove there in COMFORT mode, 75-80mph much of the way, averaging 70mph and 34.3mpg. It was compliant, comfortable and BORING. Some info gets transmitted to the steering wheel and there is more information coming from the suspension due to the wheels/tires/springs. But I feel like the BMW'ness is buried. I feel that feeling pulling the E36/7 out of the driveway.

Now on the way home, I was less worried about having enough gas, topped it off, put it in SPORT.

I left the gas station from a low roll and went WOT in 1st, banged off a smooth/quick 1-2 which set off the traction light(still happens even stock power and 275mm rear PSS') and merged onto the Turnpike at 80+.

For the rest of the way I drove the car with purpose.

It was a completely difference experience. It's as if the BMW DNA came up to the surface and it again felt like a SPORTING sedan.

The steering had more weight, telegraphed more information, taking jugghandles and exits at high speed, much less body roll thanks to the wheels/tires/springs again, very composed.

So where does that leave us?

The F30 in any specification is not perfect. But I also feel no prior 3 series offered perfection.

Does it annoy me to have to press buttons or add the right footgear to feel the BMW'ness I expect? No, to me it's expected and the button gives me an option to fit my mood at the time. Can it turn off other people, absolutely. Not everyone wants to press buttons to get that feel and or need to buy anything after shelling out $37-60k on a 3 series.
Saintor commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Get the 6 if you want while you can. I have a feeling that won't be around for very much longer either. CAFE isn't just about MPG, but overall emissions also. I get your points between the two engines and agree with you about some of the N20's faults, but I think it is an amazing engine.
In what? It doesn't do much that a 6-cyl. won't do and you sacrifice a lot - too much for a BMW. Asian competitors gets more HP and costs less in fuel to run. Would they have direct injection and the ZF-8, it would make the N20 look even more like the joke it is. But hey that's just my so humble opinion.

BTW, emissions are *the same* for the N20 and N55. CAFE is just another way to spell TAX. Both the current 328i and 335i would have the same TAX in 2016; it should look something like 54$ x (35-26) ---> 486$ or 5-600$.
The BMW-est commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:57 am

Excellent post, Jameson. I agree with you almost entirely. I too changed out the springs over a year ago and swapped the tires for PSS's, and it was the best thing I ever did for this car.

In Sport/Sport+ it is much more fun than my E90 was, while also allowing me to drive the horrible DC area roads with less concern for the spine-destroying explosions one often encounters in the last gen 3.

I actually do enjoy comfort mode so long as I have DSC disabled, which firms up the steering a bit while maintaining the smoothness that comfort mode brings during heavy traffic.

The E90 was better stock for stock, but the minor changes I've made to the F30 have made it vastly superior to my old car. I understand why people have a negative opinion after driving loaner F30s - I've hated all the ones I had too. My F30, on the other hand, really is brilliant and provides excellent feedback and handling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I have been a bit quiet lately by choice.

I am less and less interested in the repetition of these same discussions.

I also have been having fits where I am less than smitten with the F30.

But I will give you some insight into my day with the car yesterday.

I have been driving the Roadster a lot, the F30 has been sitting. I even took off the BMS tune and sold it to fund the engine rebuild of the E36/7, after all the F30 was just sitting.

So now the car is 100% stock with just wheels/tires and springs, the trilogy I do to any car-especially one with run-flats.

Now I keep getting compliments on how the F30 looks, it's the MSport pack, the color, and the wheels. Went to the Sands and the valet lit up, said aww man, MSport, right color, perfect wheels...this is a guy who parked Lambos and 911s seconds before. Also happened when I got gas the same day, guy raved about the looks.

It took me awhile to warm up, but I am officially on board with the looks of MY car. Do I get hot and bothered over the base ho hum car, nope. But mine, I keep doing the second look over my shoulder. Does that make me biased, a fanboi? No, I just like where my car is at in the looks department.

The driving...

This is where things get more complicated

I drove all the way to Maryland yesterday(215 miles each way) to acquire a model car collection.

I drove there in COMFORT mode, 75-80mph much of the way, averaging 70mph and 34.3mpg. It was compliant, comfortable and BORING. Some info gets transmitted to the steering wheel and there is more information coming from the suspension due to the wheels/tires/springs. But I feel like the BMW'ness is buried. I feel that feeling pulling the E36/7 out of the driveway.

Now on the way home, I was less worried about having enough gas, topped it off, put it in SPORT.

I left the gas station from a low roll and went WOT in 1st, banged off a smooth/quick 1-2 which set off the traction light(still happens even stock power and 275mm rear PSS') and merged onto the Turnpike at 80+.

For the rest of the way I drove the car with purpose.

It was a completely difference experience. It's as if the BMW DNA came up to the surface and it again felt like a SPORTING sedan.

The steering had more weight, telegraphed more information, taking jugghandles and exits at high speed, much less body roll thanks to the wheels/tires/springs again, very composed.

So where does that leave us?

The F30 in any specification is not perfect. But I also feel no prior 3 series offered perfection.

Does it annoy me to have to press buttons or add the right footgear to feel the BMW'ness I expect? No, to me it's expected and the button gives me an option to fit my mood at the time. Can it turn off other people, absolutely. Not everyone wants to press buttons to get that feel and or need to buy anything after shelling out $37-60k on a 3 series.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 25, 2013, 10:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The BMW-est View Post
Excellent post, Jameson. I agree with you almost entirely. I too changed out the springs over a year ago and swapped the tires for PSS's, and it was the best thing I ever did for this car.

In Sport/Sport+ it is much more fun than my E90 was, while also allowing me to drive the horrible DC area roads with less concern for the spine-destroying explosions one often encounters in the last gen 3.

I actually do enjoy comfort mode so long as I have DSC disabled, which firms up the steering a bit while maintaining the smoothness that comfort mode brings during heavy traffic.

The E90 was better stock for stock, but the minor changes I've made to the F30 have made it vastly superior to my old car. I understand why people have a negative opinion after driving loaner F30s - I've hated all the ones I had too. My F30, on the other hand, really is brilliant and provides excellent feedback and handling.
Good to see another similar experience.

It seems when people like you and I say what we say, positive AND negative, the other side of the debate ignores our negatives, harps on the positive and just makes it out that we are justifying our purchase based bias.

It makes it very hard to have a well rounded dialog.
minn19 commented:
July 25, 2013, 10:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Good to see another similar experience.

It seems when people like you and I say what we say, positive AND negative, the other side of the debate ignores our negatives, harps on the positive and just makes it out that we are justifying our purchase based bias.

It makes it very hard to have a well rounded dialog.
I couldn't agree more with this post.
Bratters123 commented:
July 25, 2013, 10:37 am

ZF 8AT is not BMW's, it is fitted to many makes of car.

Just Sayin




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The BMW-est commented:
July 25, 2013, 10:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I couldn't agree more with this post.
+2
captainaudio commented:
July 25, 2013, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by The BMW-est View Post
Excellent post, Jameson. I agree with you almost entirely. I too changed out the springs over a year ago and swapped the tires for PSS's, and it was the best thing I ever did for this car.

In Sport/Sport+ it is much more fun than my E90 was, while also allowing me to drive the horrible DC area roads with less concern for the spine-destroying explosions one often encounters in the last gen 3.

I actually do enjoy comfort mode so long as I have DSC disabled, which firms up the steering a bit while maintaining the smoothness that comfort mode brings during heavy traffic.

The E90 was better stock for stock, but the minor changes I've made to the F30 have made it vastly superior to my old car. I understand why people have a negative opinion after driving loaner F30s - I've hated all the ones I had too. My F30, on the other hand, really is brilliant and provides excellent feedback and handling.
For most people stock for stock is the only valid comparison as most people do not mod their cars. This is particularly true for those who lease.

I agree that the E9x suspension was too harsh, By changing the tires and the dampers I was able to come up with a car that had a good balance between comfort and handling. BMW apparently realized that there were issues with the poorly sorted our E9x sport suspension and solved the harsh ride issue but in many people's opinions (based on what I read here) in the process they added excessive body roll which is something I personally would not be happy with.

My question would be if you still have to modify the car to get a 3 Series that both handles and rides well was this necessarily a step forward, It may gave been in a sense since there are probably more people who are turned off by an overly harsh suspension than an overly soft suspension but it sounds like BMW just can't get it right.

Although I am willing to mod a car if I feel it is necessary I would be more inclined to try to find one that the manufacturer got right in the first place.

Of course the DHP may be the solution to the issue but I have yet to drive an F30 that is equipped with it. I do have experience with the adjustable suspension on the 7 Series and I feel that it works extremely well.

As for what features are standard on the F30 that were optional on the E9x, that is insignificant to me as long as the features that I want are available since I will order the car the way I want it equipped.

CA


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beden1 commented:
July 25, 2013, 12:58 pm

While driving a loaner F30 yesterday, I was thinking it was not as much fun to drive as my 335is, nor was it as tight or spirited, but, I also didn't have to dodge rough road surfaces in order to protect my car or myself. It was a very pleasant ride that did what it was supposed to do as a commuter car. Very comfortable and roomy with enough get up and go to get the job done.

The F30 is a good compromise car that can handle a family of 4's needs. I think that I would go for one if it were just my wife and I when we had first started to get established before having kids. It would provide enough room for some luggage and be able to carry another couple of people when going out for dinner. It would later serve as a good family car when we had a couple of small children.

Unfortunately, the road surfaces are getting so bad in most areas that having a dedicated sports car or sporty car has become a pure luxury. The only time I use my sports car(s) is when I am taking a joy ride and have the time to map my route to avoid crappy roads.
The BMW-est commented:
July 25, 2013, 1:27 pm

I definitely agree that BMW hasn't found the "Goldilocks" solution with suspension on the F generation. Like Beden said, having a pure sports car on the terrible roads in most of urban America today really is a pure luxury due to the overt suspension harshness. On the other hand, as you state, you do not need body roll in order to create a more liveable, everyday sport suspension set up.

The sport springs I installed eliminated 95% or more of the stock body roll and brought back most of the E90 road feel, while also being quite liveable on harsh roads. Why BMW didn't configure it more like this from the factory is anybody's guess. I suspect it is to push people towards the bespoke M Performance aftermarket alternatives, as many others have speculated. While I'm not pleased with that corporate decision, I am more than confident that the F30 chassis is a superb performer, though BMW felt compelled to put the stock setting on mute (even on the sport models).

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
For most people stock for stock is the only valid comparison as most people do not mod their cars. This is particularly true for those who lease.

I agree that the E9x suspension was too harsh, By changing the tires and the dampers I was able to come up with a car that had a good balance between comfort and handling. BMW apparently realized that there were issues with the poorly sorted our E9x sport suspension and solved the harsh ride issue but in many people's opinions (based on what I read here) in the process they added excessive body roll which is something I personally would not be happy with.

My question would be if you still have to modify the car to get a 3 Series that both handles and rides well was this necessarily a step forward, It may gave been in a sense since there are probably more people who are turned off by an overly harsh suspension than an overly soft suspension but it sounds like BMW just can't get it right.

Although I am willing to mod a car if I feel it is necessary I would be more inclined to try to find one that the manufacturer got right in the first place.

Of course the DHP may be the solution to the issue but I have yet to drive an F30 that is equipped with it. I do have experience with the adjustable suspension on the 7 Series and I feel that it works extremely well.

As for what features are standard on the F30 that were optional on the E9x, that is insignificant to me as long as the features that I want are available since I will order the car the way I want it equipped.

CA


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Kayani_1 commented:
July 25, 2013, 3:49 pm

The others already pointed this out to you. But all I can say is just WOW.

I have heard everything under the book for why people buy BMW 3 series. But this is the first time I heard that 3 series is bought for country club access so your sons can have dates with daughters of wealthy men.........

Hey man when the reasons for buying 3 series are so objective their is nothing left to discuss.





Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You have this completely backwards, and if you knew me you'd understand why:

To me, the F30 is a Toyota Camry. I can afford a car 5x as expensive if I wanted to keep up with my co-workers and neighbors. I buy 3 Series because it possesses the minimum amount of status necessary to maintain the membership at the country club and allow my sons to date wealthy daughters.

So the last thing I am concerned with is "validating" my purchase decision or winning some silly internet battle. All I'm concerned with, in terms of this discussion, is the truth, and as someone who has more seat time in E9X's and F30's than you do, I'm not going to sit here and be called out for lacking "objectivity".

The interior materials are the same, chief. If you look at the thousands of dollars of additional standard equipment BMW lavished on the F30 you'd see pretty quickly that saving fifty cents on some PVC would be the last thing on their minds. And, candidly, if the only valid complaint about the F30 is the feel of some plastic that we never touch then BMW succeeded beyond anyone's dreams with the new ride.

BJ
Kayani_1 commented:
July 25, 2013, 4:09 pm

Now, I am in agreement with you on some of the valid points you make below such as:

#1. The 4 cylinder is more powerful at the cost of refinement.

#2. The F30 interior uses hard plastic but has more modern design element and the switches are not on par. On the functionality part I do not find it any more functional then E90. Except for the more user friendly idrive.

#3. I also agree with you that F30 ride feels more comfy in ECO-PRO or Comfort settings. However, this same virtue makes it feel floaty and not as buttoned down in my opinion.


Anyways thanks for positive discussion without popping a nerve in your neck unlike some of these other F30 owners..






Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Here's where I stand on these points:

1) Yes the I6 is more refined in feel than the N20 turbo. But the N20 makes more power, is a great 4 cylinder and just plain feels faster. I don't find it at as all unrefined as some. It would have been great if BMW could have developed a normally aspirated I6 with the power and fuel economy of the N20 but CAFE standards made that unrealistic. I'm perfectly satisfied with the N20.

2) I've driven an E90 for the last 6 years (a 2008 and now a 2011) so I am very familiar with the interior quality. I have a few hours behind the wheel of an F30 so I have a feel for the interior of this car. The F30 plastic on the console, which everyone seems to point out is hard. It's not a big deal to me. The design of the two models are completely different due to the iDrive controller and the placement of the cup holders. It's far from a deal breaker. I find the quality of some of the switches in the F30 to be inferior to the E90. Not GM cheap but a step down. Again, the functions are perfect and this is not close to a deal breaker. The overall design and functionality of the F30 interior is far more modern and superior to the E90. It's really no contest.

And my last comment for now is the F30 goes down the road in a more refined manner. It's smoother, more in control and less hectic. That is what I mean by more refined.

Now if BMW would tighten up the steering and reduce body roll, it would be a nearly perfect car.
Michael Schott commented:
July 25, 2013, 8:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
For most people stock for stock is the only valid comparison as most people do not mod their cars. This is particularly true for those who lease.

I agree that the E9x suspension was too harsh, By changing the tires and the dampers I was able to come up with a car that had a good balance between comfort and handling. BMW apparently realized that there were issues with the poorly sorted our E9x sport suspension and solved the harsh ride issue but in many people's opinions (based on what I read here) in the process they added excessive body roll which is something I personally would not be happy with.

My question would be if you still have to modify the car to get a 3 Series that both handles and rides well was this necessarily a step forward, It may gave been in a sense since there are probably more people who are turned off by an overly harsh suspension than an overly soft suspension but it sounds like BMW just can't get it right.

Although I am willing to mod a car if I feel it is necessary I would be more inclined to try to find one that the manufacturer got right in the first place.

Of course the DHP may be the solution to the issue but I have yet to drive an F30 that is equipped with it. I do have experience with the adjustable suspension on the 7 Series and I feel that it works extremely well.

As for what features are standard on the F30 that were optional on the E9x, that is insignificant to me as long as the features that I want are available since I will order the car the way I want it equipped.

CA


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I feel that the F30 Sportline is a fine handling car. It's not as hard edged as the E90 and the capabilities are high. It lacks some of the feel of the E90, mainly in the steering. It's more muted and lighter. The car rolls more in turns and transitions than even my base E90 with 17" tires but the ride is considerably better and more sophisticated. Driving near the limit seems more effortless in the F30.

For you, adding more roll stiffness may be the answer but I'm pretty confident that you will not need to make as many suspension mods as in your E90 Sport.

I have experience in a base F30 328xi and a RWD Sportline.I had the base version as a loaner for a day and I drove the Sportline courtesy of a local owner for about 45 minutes so my experience with that model is limited. They are very different cars and in my drive in the Sportline version, I kept it in Sport mode the entire time to firm up the steering. I was so impressed that I have started negotiations with my dealer for my next 3 series.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
July 25, 2013, 8:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I feel that the F30 Sportline is a fine handling car. It's not as hard edged as the E90 and the capabilities are high. It lacks some of the feel of the E90, mainly in the steering. It's more muted and lighter. The car rolls more in turns and transitions than even my base E90 with 17" tires but the ride is considerably better and more sophisticated. Driving near the limit seems more effortless in the F30.

For you, adding more roll stiffness may be the answer but I'm pretty confident that you will not need to make as many suspension mods as in your E90 Sport.

I have experience in a base F30 328xi and a RWD Sportline.I had the base version as a loaner for a day and I drove the Sportline courtesy of a local owner for about 45 minutes so my experience with that model is limited. They are very different cars and in my drive in the Sportline version, I kept it in Sport mode the entire time to firm up the steering. I was so impressed that I have started negotiations with my dealer for my next 3 series.
This is a good post from the other forum in the TRACK/AUTOX section. The key is, the F30 did not FEEL as fast and was netting surprising results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMK007 View Post
So - I just got back from my first track event with my F30 328i. My set up was the bone stock sportline suspension, a stop tech BBK, and Nitto NT-01 245/40/18s; I ran the stock software. The event was through NASA Pro Racing at Gingerman Raceway in Michigan. I competed in TTD, which is a time trial event--the fastest lap around the track that day in your class.

Overall, I was quite pleased with the car's performance. Handling wise, turn in is very good for a stock suspension. The car definitely understeers when pushed hard at mid corner through corner exit. However, this can be minimized if you adjust your approach, which includes being more patient on throttle application. If you are too aggressive on the throttle, the back end squats, the front end raises and the car pushes badly. A properly tuned suspension (including camber plates) would really improve this. However, even in stock form, the car is very capable on track provided you are extra smooth with your inputs so as not to easily upset the car's balance. (Note: this illustrates why it is best to learn on a stock car, rather than a prepped one that masks driver errors.)

The engine was strong throughout the weekend. There was no significant drop in power toward the end of 20 minute sessions in hot humid weather. Unlike the e90 335i pitted next to me, there was also no limp mode! As everyone has attested before me, the F30 is really reliable on track. The car never seemed to struggle even when pushed very hard.

The transmission was smooth and deliberate. Braking was absolutely breathtaking with the stop tech 6 piston front, 4 piston rears. The electronic diff, on the other hand, was not terribly impressive. Particularly when going over any bumpy areas under hard acceleration, I could feel the LSD get upset and hesitate for a moment. In a timed event, this can be a killer. I was able to work around this by altering my line through a particularly rough area. A true LSD would really benefit this car. However, that does not mean you can't have a ball with the car in its current form.

Objectively speaking, the car probably performs better than you subjectively feel it is performing. Why do I say this? I competed last year in TTE with a Mark VI GTI at the same track with the same tires and stage 1 software that made that car pull like a freight train. Last year, I set the track record at Gingerman in TTE with the GTI in 1:54.03. When I finished the first session in the BMW in TTD, I pulled off track thinking I was probably a second slower than the GTI. In reality, I was over 2 seconds faster--which shocked the hell out of me. On the second day, I ran a 1:49.89; this is 1 second off track record set last year in TTD--and I am on a stock suspension. (Note: the FRS shattered the old track record this weekend by 2 seconds.) If I had coilovers and camber plates, which I can still run in this class, I am certain I could go 2 seconds faster. The point is the F30 is very, very capable--more capable than I even realized until I saw the times it is able to put done.
minn19 commented:
July 27, 2013, 2:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
In what? It doesn't do much that a 6-cyl. won't do and you sacrifice a lot - too much for a BMW. Asian competitors gets more HP and costs less in fuel to run. Would they have direct injection and the ZF-8, it would make the N20 look even more like the joke it is. But hey that's just my so humble opinion.

BTW, emissions are *the same* for the N20 and N55. CAFE is just another way to spell TAX. Both the current 328i and 335i would have the same TAX in 2016; it should look something like 54$ x (35-26) ---> 486$ or 5-600$.
Not trying to start another N20 vs N55 war here, but your comment made me curious as to what the real numbers were. It is actually kind of hard to find, but I found a British website called www.nextgreencar.com. If I read it right it said the N20 put out 147 grams of CO2 per kilometer (g/km). Compared to the N55 putting out 169 g/km. My rough math puts that at 10-11% difference. Not an insignificant number when looking at the big picture of trying to lower emissions. I found another website, but forget which one it was that posted similar numbers.

I know you hate the N20 and am not trying to change your mind. Like I said was just curious and thought I'd post what I found.
Saintor commented:
July 27, 2013, 4:11 pm

Just go to EPA.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml
minn19 commented:
July 27, 2013, 4:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I did check that site. I didn't trust their numbers between the 328i and 335 autos. For manuals there is the 10ish% difference: 336 g/m of co2 to 385 g/m between the engines. It should be around the same for the auto transmission cars but there numbers are exactly the same. This should be impossible considering the N55 is roughly a 33% bigger engine. I think it is a typo and should reflect the same difference between what the manual transmission cars show and would be more in line with what other websites numbers are showing.

That being said, it is impressive that the N55 emissions are only greater by that 10ish% figure. I would have thought it would have been a greater disparity between the N20 and N55 considering the 33% bigger displacement of the N55.

Hope that makes sense. Kind of wordy.
minn19 commented:
July 27, 2013, 5:27 pm

Or more in line with the original thread idea ( E90 328i vs F30 328i) the emissions favor the N20 even more. Using the same www.fueleconomy.gov website it shows the N52 put out 404 g/m of CO2 vs the 341g/m of the N20. That difference is even more CAFE emission standard friendly over the old engine.
Mark K commented:
July 27, 2013, 6:27 pm

In before lock ...

Fellow E9x drivers, please ... focus your energies where they should be focused if you feel so strong about F3x chassis. Instead of busting the b@lls of the people who own F30 and trying to prove indemonstrable, why don't you fill up the section "How can we improve" on a survey you get from BMW after a service appointment? I always write "Please do stop using run flat tires". You can write the same and add whatever grief you have about F3x chassis.

Have issues with F3x? Write to BMWNA/BMW. Don't write and aggravate F30 owners, there's nothing they can do about it. However, above all, if you decide to switch teams and buy something else because F3x is not your cup of tea, please make sure that BMWNA knows about it. That's the ONLY way you can expect to get what you want with next Gxx 3 series.

Have issues with choices of specific options since lines were introduced? Write to BMWNA/BMW.

Have issues with choices since certain models produced in Europe are not imported here? You know, like F31 328d RWD MT, for example? DO NOT write to BMWNA/BMW, there's nothing they can do about it. Write to your Congressperson and make sure you fire them next November if nothing happens.

Stop barking up the wrong tree.

No, I don't defend F3x. Yes, I have very few compliments for F3x generation, but this is probably the wrong venue to voice them. So, pretty please, let's concentrate our efforts and voice our collective WTF to the correct addressee and let F30 people enjoy their cars. Thanks.
bighorns commented:
July 27, 2013, 6:42 pm

I've found all of the discussion of E9X vs F30 fascinating, but the personal attacks, not so much. I'm not going to bust someones balls over their choice. For me, the comparisons are just food for thought on all of the pluses and minuses of each platform. I'm really hoping that the new 435 M-sport addresses many of the issues that people seem to have with the F30.
Mark K commented:
July 27, 2013, 7:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighorns View Post
For me, the comparisons are just food for thought on all of the pluses and minuses of each platform. I'm really hoping that the new 435 M-sport addresses many of the issues that people seem to have with the F30.
See, I don't even have a horse in this race. I don't care about F32 and would not care about E92 if it was still the current model (LCI of LCI) knowing what I know now. I'm looking forward to and test driving the F22 and, if it doesn't deliver, I will switch teams. But I do promise to make sure BMWNA and BMW know why that happened.

What I'm desperately trying to say is that making points of what you don't like about people's current ride to the people driving them is totally, utterly, completely USELESS. See, I would actually like to buy F32 but there is no way in hell that that is going to happen after the experience with E92. BMW made pretty clear that 3 series buyers should look for what they want in 1 or 2 series. Too bad for that. It's their company, their money and their livelihood - I have no horse in THAT race.

Thank God that in the last 3-5 years so many competitors got SO CLOSE to what 3 series BMW used to be as Jungian archetype to majority of the people that we really do not need 3 series BMW anymore. At least for those of us who are not afraid to call "doggie made a poo" with proper name of "dogsh|t", that is. Cheers.

EDIT: after reading it on the Web page, I just wanted to say that "dogsh|t" has NOTHING to do with my opinion about current F30 3 series, but just with calling things their REAL name no matter how ugly they sound to the marketing and sales ears. I go through the same process every day at my own job.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 28, 2013, 2:12 am

What happened.......is that I am not telling you or anyone else what you drive is garbage and that you do not know based on your purchase what is refined etc.

Show me a statement by me where I told a poster that he owns garbage cars and he does not know what he is talking about. That is called personal attack.

You can talk about E60 or E9x or anything as cars without calling people out on their purchases.

This is two totally different things that I guess you are not comprehending. How many times did I say please do not take discussion of F30 as criticism of your purchase. I am merely talking about the merits of the cars and not attacking your purchase choice.

Please, pay attention.



Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Wow! What happened to cant we just get along and talk civilly to each other. In the other thread you are crying about being personally attacked and you post this . You are not defending your previous purchasing decisions unreasonably now are you .
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 28, 2013, 2:38 am

I've said this in another thread as well, but the key to making the F30 drive like a proper BMW, is M Performance. It makes a significant difference.
minn19 commented:
July 28, 2013, 1:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
What happened.......is that I am not telling you or anyone else what you drive is garbage and that you do not know based on your purchase what is refined etc.

Show me a statement by me where I told a poster that he owns garbage cars and he does not know what he is talking about. That is called personal attack.

You can talk about E60 or E9x or anything as cars without calling people out on their purchases.

This is two totally different things that I guess you are not comprehending. How many times did I say please do not take discussion of F30 as criticism of your purchase. I am merely talking about the merits of the cars and not attacking your purchase choice.

Please, pay attention.
Kayani_1, this my last attempt at reaching some sort of understanding with you. I, and am sure others are tired of this continuing to go around in circles.

1. You felt personally attacked in this and other threads, because I seriously asked why you would buy another BMW product when you felt so strongly that they have gone in a direction that you obviously do not like. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, as it would be silly to spend this much on a car to not be satisfied with it. I suggested since there are so many good cars in this segment why not check those out and see if you like them better, it would then make sense to buy one of those brands. I was serious about this and not personally attacking you. I was snarky in some of my later posts as you still will not answer that basic question and continued to throw out what I thought were ridiculous posts about the F30. My frustration has nothing to do with defending my purchase decision. I am happy with my decision and do not need it validated by you or any body on this forum or elsewhere.

2. You complained that you being attacked by me and others in this forum. I do not agree with that, but I get that it is your perception and can see how you might feel that way. Compared to what I have seen on this forum though, I think you are a little thin skinned and protest a bit much about being "attacked".

3. From your feelings of being attacked you appealed to the forum something like: cant we just talk civilly about cars? Then you turn around call somebody clueless, tell them to pull their head out of their a** and some other comments. If that is not a personal attack I do not know what is. Also it goes against what you personally asked the forum for: a civil discussion about cars. AKA, you are acting like a hypocrite in this regard.

4. Last, if you really do not like the F30 or the direction BMW is going and buy one anyway, are you not the very person you are complaining about? The new BMW owners that only care about curb appeal and the badge?

Take this post for it is worth, good luck in your future car purchases no matter what they are.
drallafi commented:
July 28, 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I don't think so. The E90 is the best athlete of the bunch so far. By a landslide. Even better than the E36 becasue the platform is more ridgid and fully controllable.

The E46 was more emotional, even enough to be a better BMW. Unexplainable, maybe defined by more BMW-esque styling and more intimacy.

The F30 needs a lot of money to be considered as a genuine Bimmer. Possible but you must be convinced.
IMO, the e46 330i was the pinnacle of the 3-series. Just classic BMW design, handling, and balance.

The E90 is a nice evolution, but imo it lost something as it grew up. In every measurable aspect, my 335i is far superior but I still find myself missing the e46 some days.
acme commented:
July 28, 2013, 2:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
A friend of mine bought a new WRX but found it much too noisy and rough riding to be a daily and highway vehicle.
I have a 2007 STi Limited (stealth version -- no spoiler) and I love it. It is so fast that at wide open throttle I can hardly shift it fast enough in first gear to avoid hitting the rev limiter. It is rough riding, I agree, although I do use it as a daily driver.

It is a robust car and does everything well: quick steering, and outstanding Brembo brakes, driver settable front-rear proportioning of power. It can scoot in and out of traffic at any speed with aplomb. Off-road, it can literally go in the air over bumps & gullies without falling to pieces.

Shortly after I bought it, I upgraded its intake & exhaust & re-flashed its ECU and since then result is that when the tach rises above 3500 rpm, it is almost like it has downshifted, the rush of power is so striking.

I have a couple Kawasaki's and when I ride them, I tend to keep the RPMs fairly high...it just makes the bikes easier to handle. I do the same thing with the STi, and it seems happy revving high.

Do the doors sound tinny when I close them? Yes. Is the leather interior & sun roof inferior?
Not at all. Does the rest of the interior seem cheap? I never noticed.

Is it noisy? I can hear the waste-gate hissing at mid-throttle because of the upgrades, but I like hearing what the engine is doing. Same thing with the motorcycles--I love to hear their "song". But even when STi's idling, it sounds great.

I never get tickets because it looks like an econobox. I removed all the STi emblems from the exterior, as I don't want the car to be noticed.

In the 50,000 miles I have put on the STi, I have not had to take it in for a single repair. All the electronic malfunctions and mechanical failures of the F30 I've been reading on this and other sites give me cause for concern that I'm going to be in for a lot of hassles when my F31 wagon arrives.

The question of which is the better car, the BMW or the Subaru is irrelevant to me as I see these two cars as serving different purposes: the diesel F31 as a utility hauler & long distance ride and the STi as an always ready, raw hot-rod.


Acme
Kayani_1 commented:
July 29, 2013, 5:16 am

I hear you and can see why you have this certain opinion. Now let me explain my point of view so you can understand where I am coming from and how I perceive all of this even though I don't have to justify anything to you or anyone else. So all in hopes of having some sort of understanding on this point of view and having some reasonable discussions.

First, and foremost when I am discussing the merits of F30 cars. I am not doing that to take pot shots at anybody's purchase as that was and never is my intention. I also don't think that you have to justify your purchase to me at any point nor I asked for it.

Second, as an avid loyal owner of various BMW's for more then a decade. I have great interest in F30 or F32 as well as host of other BMW's. But mostly F30/F32. Because it is a natural replacement for my E92 335i. I had high hopes from BMW. I was hoping for lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, dynamically better performing car with higher level of refinements and looks inside and out, not to mention a driving experience that would put a smile on your face.

The initial news upon release was even good. The car was more roomy, not ugly, more fuel efficient, better transmission, and slightly lighter. The new 4 cylinder turbo was more powerful even though it was disappointing that their was no power upgrade for N55 version.

However, that excitement soon turned into a shock as I got behind the wheels of both F30 328i and F30 335i. The driving feel left you wondering what happened. I am in a BMW?. I still remember way back then getting behind the wheels of then all new E46 330i or 325i and nothing felt quite like it on the road. Heck, the E39 5 series was hell of fun car to drive. Ditto for E9x 328i, 335i, or E60 5 series. Heck even the E65 7 series felt like a sports car hiding in a body of a big luxury car. Now the E9x 3er, E60 5er or E65 7er were not as hardcore as the previous generations they replaced but they felt more evolutionary they lost a tiny bit of that edge but it was nothing alarming. In all honesty I can't say the same so far from my experience behind the F30's. Maybe, I have just not driven the right kind with all the extra mods to make it right. But here is where I get disappointed why should I have to do so much to make the car perfect. Why, could it not be like that from the beginning.

Now, to the statement why don't you leave. I have been part of this form for many years. This is where I come to share my highs and lows of BMW car experiences. This is where I come to talk cars and one of my favorite marque brands BMW. This where among BMW owners I share my disgust or my delight of models, technology and features etc. This is where I come to learn DIY, warranty issues, upgrades, because it is a community of mostly enthusiast from whom you can learn few things as well as share few things.

So I ask you why should I be told all of a sudden to leave, stop talking about F30, go away and buy something else, the cars you owned or drive suck, you are pathetic, why do you come here etc...etc.

Now, I did not ask for their permission to be on this forum nor do I need it. So why the urge to tell me to go some where else. I am not telling you to go some where else. This is an F30 forum. This is where discussion on F30 takes place. Thus, I will be here and take part in it as much as I desire. If they have the urge to tell me to leave then maybe they should stop reading my post and move on themselves. At the same time I did not ask for their advice about what I should buy or not. So stop giving it to me as I don't need their or your advice on this matter. If I need one or desire one I will create a thread about should I buy F30 or not. I am also not attacking what cars you owned nor attacking the reasons for your buying one. I am not calling you pathetic nor telling you to stop discussing any car that you desire to do so.

Thus, I don't need those type of replies directed towards me nor that type of attacks. The funny thing is this coming from a guys who bought BMW 3 series so they can have access to country club so their sons can date rich girls.


Some of the guys that are brand new to the BMW brand from Toyota or Nissan or brand jumpers have the hardest time digesting this concept of having favorite marquee brands. Also, what happens when they have a paradigm shift in philosophy that disappoints you and how you discuss that with other enthusiast. Now, maybe that is a foreign concept to few non-enthusiast guys but not to all.

Now, last but not least if someone does not want to discuss the merits of F30 but rather come in here an take pot shots of personal kind at me. All because they have the desire to defend their purchase fiercely. Then I am not going to stand by and be a target practice for their rude insults. So how much respect you want is in your own hands. Don't insult me unprovoked and neither will I you.


Bottom, line is I will talk about F30 or any other car as much as I want. If you or anyone else has a severe problem with this than don't read my post. Otherwise, if you can handle a proper discussion then be my guest and take part in it to your hearts desire. Also, I have been part of BMW forum long enough to know that BMW is not so naÔve. They watch what takes place on these forums . Its not all that foreign to them. This is not just the case with BMW but with a lot of manufacturers. This is one of the best feedback methods. I have also shared my personal opinion with BMW NA on this matter via sources outside of this forum.

Now, take care. I am hoping BMW will fix these issues and taper this overly aggressive paradigm shift. I am not against efficient dynamics but not at all out expense of driving dynamics. Also, their are still BMW xdrive cars available with hydraulic setup. So all hope is not lost. It is the RWD ones that are being change over to EPS faster then we can say oops. Now, I am also not against EPS all the way. If they can ever get to the level of feel and feedback of great hydraulic setups. But so far the technology is not at that level. Until, then I say give us the option that if we go with sport line or M-sport then we get a more driver oriented hydraulic setup. While luxury line or no M-sport etc. have EPS.




Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Kayani_1, this my last attempt at reaching some sort of understanding with you. I, and am sure others are tired of this continuing to go around in circles.

1. You felt personally attacked in this and other threads, because I seriously asked why you would buy another BMW product when you felt so strongly that they have gone in a direction that you obviously do not like. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, as it would be silly to spend this much on a car to not be satisfied with it. I suggested since there are so many good cars in this segment why not check those out and see if you like them better, it would then make sense to buy one of those brands. I was serious about this and not personally attacking you. I was snarky in some of my later posts as you still will not answer that basic question and continued to throw out what I thought were ridiculous posts about the F30. My frustration has nothing to do with defending my purchase decision. I am happy with my decision and do not need it validated by you or any body on this forum or elsewhere.

2. You complained that you being attacked by me and others in this forum. I do not agree with that, but I get that it is your perception and can see how you might feel that way. Compared to what I have seen on this forum though, I think you are a little thin skinned and protest a bit much about being "attacked".

3. From your feelings of being attacked you appealed to the forum something like: cant we just talk civilly about cars? Then you turn around call somebody clueless, tell them to pull their head out of their a** and some other comments. If that is not a personal attack I do not know what is. Also it goes against what you personally asked the forum for: a civil discussion about cars. AKA, you are acting like a hypocrite in this regard.

4. Last, if you really do not like the F30 or the direction BMW is going and buy one anyway, are you not the very person you are complaining about? The new BMW owners that only care about curb appeal and the badge?

Take this post for it is worth, good luck in your future car purchases no matter what they are.
Michael Schott commented:
July 29, 2013, 8:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I hear you and can see why you have this certain opinion. Now let me explain my point of view so you can understand where I am coming from and how I perceive all of this even though I don't have to justify anything to you or anyone else. So all in hopes of having some sort of understanding on this point of view and having some reasonable discussions.

First, and foremost when I am discussing the merits of F30 cars. I am not doing that to take pot shots at anybody's purchase as that was and never is my intention. I also don't think that you have to justify your purchase to me at any point nor I asked for it.

Second, as an avid loyal owner of various BMW's for more then a decade. I have great interest in F30 or F32 as well as host of other BMW's. But mostly F30/F32. Because it is a natural replacement for my E92 335i. I had high hopes from BMW. I was hoping for lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, dynamically better performing car with higher level of refinements and looks inside and out, not to mention a driving experience that would put a smile on your face.

The initial news upon release was even good. The car was more roomy, not ugly, more fuel efficient, better transmission, and slightly lighter. The new 4 cylinder turbo was more powerful even though it was disappointing that their was no power upgrade for N55 version.

However, that excitement soon turned into a shock as I got behind the wheels of both F30 328i and F30 335i. The driving feel left you wondering what happened. I am in a BMW?. I still remember way back then getting behind the wheels of then all new E46 330i or 325i and nothing felt quite like it on the road. Heck, the E39 5 series was hell of fun car to drive. Ditto for E9x 328i, 335i, or E60 5 series. Heck even the E65 7 series felt like a sports car hiding in a body of a big luxury car. Now the E9x 3er, E60 5er or E65 7er were not as hardcore as the previous generations they replaced but they felt more evolutionary they lost a tiny bit of that edge but it was nothing alarming. In all honesty I can't say the same so far from my experience behind the F30's. Maybe, I have just not driven the right kind with all the extra mods to make it right. But here is where I get disappointed why should I have to do so much to make the car perfect. Why, could it not be like that from the beginning.

Now, to the statement why don't you leave. I have been part of this form for many years. This is where I come to share my highs and lows of BMW car experiences. This is where I come to talk cars and one of my favorite marque brands BMW. This where among BMW owners I share my disgust or my delight of models, technology and features etc. This is where I come to learn DIY, warranty issues, upgrades, because it is a community of mostly enthusiast from whom you can learn few things as well as share few things.

So I ask you why should I be told all of a sudden to leave, stop talking about F30, go away and buy something else, the cars you owned or drive suck, you are pathetic, why do you come here etc...etc.

Now, I did not ask for their permission to be on this forum nor do I need it. So why the urge to tell me to go some where else. I am not telling you to go some where else. This is an F30 forum. This is where discussion on F30 takes place. Thus, I will be here and take part in it as much as I desire. If they have the urge to tell me to leave then maybe they should stop reading my post and move on themselves. At the same time I did not ask for their advice about what I should buy or not. So stop giving it to me as I don't need their or your advice on this matter. If I need one or desire one I will create a thread about should I buy F30 or not. I am also not attacking what cars you owned nor attacking the reasons for your buying one. I am not calling you pathetic nor telling you to stop discussing any car that you desire to do so.

Thus, I don't need those type of replies directed towards me nor that type of attacks. The funny thing is this coming from a guys who bought BMW 3 series so they can have access to country club so their sons can date rich girls.


Some of the guys that are brand new to the BMW brand from Toyota or Nissan or brand jumpers have the hardest time digesting this concept of having favorite marquee brands. Also, what happens when they have a paradigm shift in philosophy that disappoints you and how you discuss that with other enthusiast. Now, maybe that is a foreign concept to few non-enthusiast guys but not to all.

Now, last but not least if someone does not want to discuss the merits of F30 but rather come in here an take pot shots of personal kind at me. All because they have the desire to defend their purchase fiercely. Then I am not going to stand by and be a target practice for their rude insults. So how much respect you want is in your own hands. Don't insult me unprovoked and neither will I you.


Bottom, line is I will talk about F30 or any other car as much as I want. If you or anyone else has a severe problem with this than don't read my post. Otherwise, if you can handle a proper discussion then be my guest and take part in it to your hearts desire. Also, I have been part of BMW forum long enough to know that BMW is not so naÔve. They watch what takes place on these forums . Its not all that foreign to them. This is not just the case with BMW but with a lot of manufacturers. This is one of the best feedback methods. I have also shared my personal opinion with BMW NA on this matter via sources outside of this forum.

Now, take care. I am hoping BMW will fix these issues and taper this overly aggressive paradigm shift. I am not against efficient dynamics but not at all out expense of driving dynamics. Also, their are still BMW xdrive cars available with hydraulic setup. So all hope is not lost. It is the RWD ones that are being change over to EPS faster then we can say oops. Now, I am also not against EPS all the way. If they can ever get to the level of feel and feedback of great hydraulic setups. But so far the technology is not at that level. Until, then I say give us the option that if we go with sport line or M-sport then we get a more driver oriented hydraulic setup. While luxury line or no M-sport etc. have EPS.
I think what I bolded in your post is the key phrase. What is perfect to you is perfect only for a small portion of the 3 series market. BMW now lets you choose your driving style with different modes. And the Sport Line still gets you a very capable car albeit more grown up than in the past. If you want a truly hard edge F30 you need to do it yourself but then again many with E90 ZSP equipped cars bitterly complained about the rough ride unless they lived where the roads were perfect. And of course CAFE regulations unfortunately drove BMW to switch to EPS which seems to be the biggest dynamic retrograde on the F30. There's not much that can be done to change this. Those hoping for a return to HPS are just as likely to get a date with Kate Upton .
minn19 commented:
July 29, 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I hear you and can see why you have this certain opinion. Now let me explain my point of view so you can understand where I am coming from and how I perceive all of this even though I don't have to justify anything to you or anyone else. So all in hopes of having some sort of understanding on this point of view and having some reasonable discussions.

First, and foremost when I am discussing the merits of F30 cars. I am not doing that to take pot shots at anybody's purchase as that was and never is my intention. I also don't think that you have to justify your purchase to me at any point nor I asked for it.

Second, as an avid loyal owner of various BMW's for more then a decade. I have great interest in F30 or F32 as well as host of other BMW's. But mostly F30/F32. Because it is a natural replacement for my E92 335i. I had high hopes from BMW. I was hoping for lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, dynamically better performing car with higher level of refinements and looks inside and out, not to mention a driving experience that would put a smile on your face.

The initial news upon release was even good. The car was more roomy, not ugly, more fuel efficient, better transmission, and slightly lighter. The new 4 cylinder turbo was more powerful even though it was disappointing that their was no power upgrade for N55 version.

However, that excitement soon turned into a shock as I got behind the wheels of both F30 328i and F30 335i. The driving feel left you wondering what happened. I am in a BMW?. I still remember way back then getting behind the wheels of then all new E46 330i or 325i and nothing felt quite like it on the road. Heck, the E39 5 series was hell of fun car to drive. Ditto for E9x 328i, 335i, or E60 5 series. Heck even the E65 7 series felt like a sports car hiding in a body of a big luxury car. Now the E9x 3er, E60 5er or E65 7er were not as hardcore as the previous generations they replaced but they felt more evolutionary they lost a tiny bit of that edge but it was nothing alarming. In all honesty I can't say the same so far from my experience behind the F30's. Maybe, I have just not driven the right kind with all the extra mods to make it right. But here is where I get disappointed why should I have to do so much to make the car perfect. Why, could it not be like that from the beginning.

Now, to the statement why don't you leave. I have been part of this form for many years. This is where I come to share my highs and lows of BMW car experiences. This is where I come to talk cars and one of my favorite marque brands BMW. This where among BMW owners I share my disgust or my delight of models, technology and features etc. This is where I come to learn DIY, warranty issues, upgrades, because it is a community of mostly enthusiast from whom you can learn few things as well as share few things.

So I ask you why should I be told all of a sudden to leave, stop talking about F30, go away and buy something else, the cars you owned or drive suck, you are pathetic, why do you come here etc...etc.

Now, I did not ask for their permission to be on this forum nor do I need it. So why the urge to tell me to go some where else. I am not telling you to go some where else. This is an F30 forum. This is where discussion on F30 takes place. Thus, I will be here and take part in it as much as I desire. If they have the urge to tell me to leave then maybe they should stop reading my post and move on themselves. At the same time I did not ask for their advice about what I should buy or not. So stop giving it to me as I don't need their or your advice on this matter. If I need one or desire one I will create a thread about should I buy F30 or not. I am also not attacking what cars you owned nor attacking the reasons for your buying one. I am not calling you pathetic nor telling you to stop discussing any car that you desire to do so.

Thus, I don't need those type of replies directed towards me nor that type of attacks. The funny thing is this coming from a guys who bought BMW 3 series so they can have access to country club so their sons can date rich girls.


Some of the guys that are brand new to the BMW brand from Toyota or Nissan or brand jumpers have the hardest time digesting this concept of having favorite marquee brands. Also, what happens when they have a paradigm shift in philosophy that disappoints you and how you discuss that with other enthusiast. Now, maybe that is a foreign concept to few non-enthusiast guys but not to all.

Now, last but not least if someone does not want to discuss the merits of F30 but rather come in here an take pot shots of personal kind at me. All because they have the desire to defend their purchase fiercely. Then I am not going to stand by and be a target practice for their rude insults. So how much respect you want is in your own hands. Don't insult me unprovoked and neither will I you.


Bottom, line is I will talk about F30 or any other car as much as I want. If you or anyone else has a severe problem with this than don't read my post. Otherwise, if you can handle a proper discussion then be my guest and take part in it to your hearts desire. Also, I have been part of BMW forum long enough to know that BMW is not so naÔve. They watch what takes place on these forums . Its not all that foreign to them. This is not just the case with BMW but with a lot of manufacturers. This is one of the best feedback methods. I have also shared my personal opinion with BMW NA on this matter via sources outside of this forum.

Now, take care. I am hoping BMW will fix these issues and taper this overly aggressive paradigm shift. I am not against efficient dynamics but not at all out expense of driving dynamics. Also, their are still BMW xdrive cars available with hydraulic setup. So all hope is not lost. It is the RWD ones that are being change over to EPS faster then we can say oops. Now, I am also not against EPS all the way. If they can ever get to the level of feel and feedback of great hydraulic setups. But so far the technology is not at that level. Until, then I say give us the option that if we go with sport line or M-sport then we get a more driver oriented hydraulic setup. While luxury line or no M-sport etc. have EPS.
I think the main difference between you and I is that I have no brand loyalty no matter the product. If that makes me a poser or whatever than so be it. That is not to say that I have not liked BMW's for a long time before owning one. My first introduction to BMW's was my R1200R motorcycle. I always had Kawi's or Yamaha's which were fine bikes, but BMW brought it to another level. I had test drove many BMW cars in the past and loved how they drove, but was worried about reliability and cost/benefit over other cars (also was not a fan of the interiors). Money was more of an issue back then also.

I felt this way about the F30. I needed a car quickly because of certain circumstances a year and half ago so I rushed in to leasing a 2012 Toyota Camry SE V6. It was fast and a nice car, but other than that a fairly boring vehicle. My wife knew I wasn't very happy with it and for my b-day this year (March) she said why don't you go get the car you really wanted. I test drove theF30 328 xDrive and thought it was night and day over my Camry. It was all I could do not to throw my wallet at my CA and yell I'll take it!

Now driving it for 9000 miles in 5 months I still love it, but it is not perfect which is why I have put some money in to mods and will put some more in to the suspension. Should you have to do this? No, but if you want an F30 the way you very specifically want it, then yes you do have to.

Any way, long story short getting back to brand loyalty. In the future when I decide to replace this car I will have zero problem jumping ship from BMW to another brand if they don't make what I like. Like people have said here. Life is to short and these cars are way to expensive to spend money on to be disappointed by one. I'll use Apple for my brand loyalty example. I have bought all Apple products: phones, Apple TV, MacPro etc. I've held on to my iPhone 4 for two 2 1/2 years hoping they will come out with a bigger screen for their phones. If they don't this fall I'm going to buy an HTC one. I know these are much cheaper purchases than cars, but same idea. Company isn't producing what I like or want any more so luckily as a consumer we have never had more products to chose from be it cars or phones so I can get what I want. I feel bad for you as it seems like you have lost a long time friend in BMW, hopefully they turn around and start making what you want again. Though, considering the sales figures I doubt it. I highly suggest you take Mark K's advice for getting them to change, because he is right. I don't think posting here about the issues is going to do it. People flocking to the competitors cars is what will.
enigma commented:
July 29, 2013, 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I've said this in another thread as well, but the key to making the F30 drive like a proper BMW, is M Performance. It makes a significant difference.
No amount of M Performance parts will cure the EPS. It's accurate, but feels artificial.

Another problem with the M Performance parts is that they are expensive, and at that price point ($60+k), the F30 competes in a different price class.
Michael Schott commented:
July 29, 2013, 1:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
No amount of M Performance parts will cure the EPS. It's accurate, but feels artificial.

Another problem with the M Performance parts is that they are expensive, and at that price point ($60+k), the F30 competes in a different price class.
It's a different price class but what other new 4 door car does the job better? The problem is there is nothing else out there other than the usual suspects. If you want a truly sporting 4 door car you need to look at a BMW M car or the Mercedes AMG. Of course the Audi S4 fits as well but is getting long in the tooth.
captainaudio commented:
July 29, 2013, 1:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's a different price class but what other new 4 door car does the job better? The problem is there is nothing else out there other than the usual suspects. If you want a truly sporting 4 door car you need to look at a BMW M car or the Mercedes AMG. Of course the Audi S4 fits as well but is getting long in the tooth.
Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti all make good 4 door sport sedans.

CA




Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Nordique commented:
July 29, 2013, 2:00 pm

Those three 'sport sedans' might be ok to drive to the track but I would rather be in my bimmer on and around the track.
captainaudio commented:
July 29, 2013, 2:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Those three 'sport sedans' might be ok to drive to the track but I would rather be in my bimmer on and around the track.
All of them including the F30 are road cars that you can do an occasional track day in but they are not intended or suited for serious track use. In any case the vast majority of these cars are being sold to be used as enjoyable practical transportation on public roads and those are the abilities they should be judged on,


CA
Michael Schott commented:
July 29, 2013, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti all make good 4 door sport sedans.

CA




Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
In the $60K range, I don't think any of them do a better job than a Sportline F30. In reality, if I had $60K to spend on a brand new sporting sedan, I think the only choices are a 335i MSport or an S4. Maybe you pop for a few more dollars and get a Tesla Model S with a smaller battery pack.
captainaudio commented:
July 29, 2013, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
In the $60K range, I don't think any of them do a better job than a Sportline F30. In reality, if I had $60K to spend on a brand new sporting sedan, I think the only choices are a 335i MSport or an S4. Maybe you pop for a few more dollars and get a Tesla Model S with a smaller battery pack.
You are very likely right.

Which of those have you driven?

I only have first hand experience with the Jaguar but the XFR that I drove is north of $60K.

The Jag drove very well.

CA
PK2348 commented:
July 29, 2013, 3:15 pm

Based on what i read Jaguar is planning on releasing a new model XS, which will be 3er competitor. Will be interesting to see how that thing drives. I spent some time in XJL this weekend. Nice, but huge.
Michael Schott commented:
July 29, 2013, 3:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
You are very likely right.

Which of those have you driven?

I only have first hand experience with the Jaguar but the XFR that I drove is north of $60K.

The Jag drove very well.

CA
None. I think I'd like the Jaguar if I can get past the screwy gear change feature. The other issue is only BMW, Cadillac and Audi offer MT's and the Caddy 3.6 does not. I much prefer to row my own. No matter, as I don't see any of these being in my budget in the near future.

If I needed a larger car than a 3 series, I think a MT 535i E60 with ZSP would be a great used car. They seem to sell for under $35K. Not the most beautiful car but a great sporty family sedan.
Nordique commented:
July 29, 2013, 6:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
In the $60K range, I don't think any of them do a better job than a Sportline F30. In reality, if I had $60K to spend on a brand new sporting sedan, I think the only choices are a 335i MSport or an S4. Maybe you pop for a few more dollars and get a Tesla Model S with a smaller battery pack.
My F30 sport six was $35K but less with the BMW loyalty discount of $750 and the BMW CCA rebate from BMW-USA of $500.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 29, 2013, 8:50 pm

I agree with you what is perfect for most enthusiast BMW owners and what brought us to the marque many years ago is not what the general public desires now. However, BMW was never for everyone and BMW never marketed it to masses as brand for everyone. Much like Porsche does not. It was for certain type of folks that wanted a 4 door Porsche like driving dynamics in a bit more practical car with decent amount of luxury. They did not have to mod the heck out of car to get a car that would put a smile on their face. It was pretty great from factory in base form. Then few lil mods and it was nearly perfect and if not it was still great fun.

As for BMW offering choice that was alway the case. The BMW brand has always been great at it but without compromising their core values of great driving dynamics. You always knew you can come to BMW for a 6-speed in luxury sedan in addition to latest and greatest transmission choices. You could get powerful fuel efficient turbos as well as NA engines. You can get latest and greatest tech gizmos but not at the expense of driving dynamics. If you did not want active steering you could opt out. You did not want extra stiff suspension you could by pass sport pkg or M-sport. etc...etc. But during all of this the base car was still very satisfying to drive. It was fun to drive even without spt. pkg and very few cars came close to it in the way steering feel felt or the response and sounds of the car.

I think the paradigm shift is happening as you and I mentioned. thus, driving dynamics has been replaced by efficient dynamics.

Now BMW has a desire to sell to masses. They want to go after volume in car sales. This means making the cars more to the liking of everyone. But this is when you run into problem. When you try to make everyone happy you end up making a more generic cars.
Toyota, Ford, Honda, and Nissan etc. chase volume. The Accord, Camry, Fusion and Altima are all fine cars and have good qualities but they are made for masses and you can tell the difference. Believe me if marque brands like BMW and Porsche start going after masses they will become more generic and not all that desirable by enthusiast.

Is it not strange that right when all these manufacturers (MB, Nissan in Infiniti, Toyota in lexus, Ford in Mustang) are trying hard to be like BMW. The BMW has decided to have a paradigm shift in philosophy. Honestly, you can see Benz, Infiniti and Lexus cars having that character now that BMW was more known for.

I think BMW should not put driving dynamics on back burner in favor of efficient dynamics. A 3 series can still be plenty efficient with great driving dynamics.

As for this EPS stuff in name of fuel efficiency. I am not so sure if it is all that it is being made out to be. Looks like efficiency can be achieved with no EPS...just take a Look at like VW XL1. They found a way to get 260 mpg with no power steering. All because they kept the mass down. I am not saying that 3 series should be like XL1. But rather efficiency can be had by other means without compromising driving feel/feedback which has always been part of great driver cars.

Its not like the entire BMW line up for even all new cars is all hydraulic. Take for example BMW 650i x-drive gran-coupe. It has no EPS and is it a whole lot less efficient.....not really. However, to keep masses happy and so that most would not be able to tell the difference they programmed the hydraulic setup to be as dull as EPS.

I think EPS setups still need a lot of development. They are like the early SMG transmissions have potential but are not great. I think since BMW is always been known for choice it should offer M-sport and sport line with regular hydrualic setups. Those that want more hardcore cars should be able to get fun cars. Those that want soft core cars should go with luxury line or modern line. However, the divide should be clear then. It is no point throwing EPS in a sport pkg or M-sport pkg car because it lacks feel and feedback at the contact patch.

Anyways just sharing my thoughts.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I think what I bolded in your post is the key phrase. What is perfect to you is perfect only for a small portion of the 3 series market. BMW now lets you choose your driving style with different modes. And the Sport Line still gets you a very capable car albeit more grown up than in the past. If you want a truly hard edge F30 you need to do it yourself but then again many with E90 ZSP equipped cars bitterly complained about the rough ride unless they lived where the roads were perfect. And of course CAFE regulations unfortunately drove BMW to switch to EPS which seems to be the biggest dynamic retrograde on the F30. There's not much that can be done to change this. Those hoping for a return to HPS are just as likely to get a date with Kate Upton .
Kayani_1 commented:
July 29, 2013, 8:58 pm

+1

The other are closer to BMW. But they still have not been able to capture that magic. Now it was not such a situation in past the E46 330i spt-pkg was a blast to drive. They were not M cars but were hell of a fun. Now BMW is still the only place but you have to spend thousands and thousands to get the car to be huge fun. At that price point you might as well buy a used E92 M3 or wait for next one which one will be sky high in price. Where does one go now to buy those special driver oriented sports sedan that were great fun to drive in $30K plus price range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's a different price class but what other new 4 door car does the job better? The problem is there is nothing else out there other than the usual suspects. If you want a truly sporting 4 door car you need to look at a BMW M car or the Mercedes AMG. Of course the Audi S4 fits as well but is getting long in the tooth.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 29, 2013, 9:19 pm

Thanks for understanding

The F30 in spt line is a great choice when compared with Toyota Camry. You made a good choice to get a car that you desired life is too short to not get what you really want and settle.

I like BMW cars but for motorcycles I still lean towards Japanese super sport class liter bikes. They are great bang for the buck. I have not driven the BMW super sport liter bikes but have driven Ducati and did not find it to be dynamically all that superior to the Japanese liter bikes in super sport class.

As for showing BMW my disappointment with purchasing something else. If I don't find what I am looking for then I will do so. So far the new stingray is what I am leaning towards. I think Corvette design team has taken most of the right steps to make it more driver oriented car. It seems like a great bang for the buck. I will still have to drive one to make sure it is to my liking. Other option is Lotus Evora or Cayman S. I mean what else can one do. A $60K plus F32 435i M-sport or Stingray or Porsche Cayman S or Lotus Evora. I think the other 3 make a stronger case then BMW. For right now I am keeping my car and hoping BMW fixes few of the issues.

As for input on these forums trust me BMW folks monitor the feedback to some extent here as well as on other forum. Also, I have protested to them in other manners at my disposal. I really like BMW marquee brand for what it used to be. If it does not offer what I am looking for I will eventually move on to find something else. So far I am in disappointment phase.....LOL

Anyways, take car and enjoy your F30.







Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I think the main difference between you and I is that I have no brand loyalty no matter the product. If that makes me a poser or whatever than so be it. That is not to say that I have not liked BMW's for a long time before owning one. My first introduction to BMW's was my R1200R motorcycle. I always had Kawi's or Yamaha's which were fine bikes, but BMW brought it to another level. I had test drove many BMW cars in the past and loved how they drove, but was worried about reliability and cost/benefit over other cars (also was not a fan of the interiors). Money was more of an issue back then also.

I felt this way about the F30. I needed a car quickly because of certain circumstances a year and half ago so I rushed in to leasing a 2012 Toyota Camry SE V6. It was fast and a nice car, but other than that a fairly boring vehicle. My wife knew I wasn't very happy with it and for my b-day this year (March) she said why don't you go get the car you really wanted. I test drove theF30 328 xDrive and thought it was night and day over my Camry. It was all I could do not to throw my wallet at my CA and yell I'll take it!

Now driving it for 9000 miles in 5 months I still love it, but it is not perfect which is why I have put some money in to mods and will put some more in to the suspension. Should you have to do this? No, but if you want an F30 the way you very specifically want it, then yes you do have to.

Any way, long story short getting back to brand loyalty. In the future when I decide to replace this car I will have zero problem jumping ship from BMW to another brand if they don't make what I like. Like people have said here. Life is to short and these cars are way to expensive to spend money on to be disappointed by one. I'll use Apple for my brand loyalty example. I have bought all Apple products: phones, Apple TV, MacPro etc. I've held on to my iPhone 4 for two 2 1/2 years hoping they will come out with a bigger screen for their phones. If they don't this fall I'm going to buy an HTC one. I know these are much cheaper purchases than cars, but same idea. Company isn't producing what I like or want any more so luckily as a consumer we have never had more products to chose from be it cars or phones so I can get what I want. I feel bad for you as it seems like you have lost a long time friend in BMW, hopefully they turn around and start making what you want again. Though, considering the sales figures I doubt it. I highly suggest you take Mark K's advice for getting them to change, because he is right. I don't think posting here about the issues is going to do it. People flocking to the competitors cars is what will.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 29, 2013, 10:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
No amount of M Performance parts will cure the EPS. It's accurate, but feels artificial.

Another problem with the M Performance parts is that they are expensive, and at that price point ($60+k), the F30 competes in a different price class.
You're right on all accounts but this is BMW marketing. The artificialness is what is improved. The M Performance suspension cures some of it.
beden1 commented:
July 29, 2013, 11:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I agree with you what is perfect for most enthusiast BMW owners and what brought us to the marque many years ago is not what the general public desires now. However, BMW was never for everyone and BMW never marketed it to masses as brand for everyone. Much like Porsche does not. It was for certain type of folks that wanted a 4 door Porsche like driving dynamics in a bit more practical car with decent amount of luxury. They did not have to mod the heck out of car to get a car that would put a smile on their face. It was pretty great from factory in base form. Then few lil mods and it was nearly perfect and if not it was still great fun.

As for BMW offering choice that was alway the case. The BMW brand has always been great at it but without compromising their core values of great driving dynamics. You always knew you can come to BMW for a 6-speed in luxury sedan in addition to latest and greatest transmission choices. You could get powerful fuel efficient turbos as well as NA engines. You can get latest and greatest tech gizmos but not at the expense of driving dynamics. If you did not want active steering you could opt out. You did not want extra stiff suspension you could by pass sport pkg or M-sport. etc...etc. But during all of this the base car was still very satisfying to drive. It was fun to drive even without spt. pkg and very few cars came close to it in the way steering feel felt or the response and sounds of the car.

I think the paradigm shift is happening as you and I mentioned. thus, driving dynamics has been replaced by efficient dynamics.

Now BMW has a desire to sell to masses. They want to go after volume in car sales. This means making the cars more to the liking of everyone. But this is when you run into problem. When you try to make everyone happy you end up making a more generic cars.
Toyota, Ford, Honda, and Nissan etc. chase volume. The Accord, Camry, Fusion and Altima are all fine cars and have good qualities but they are made for masses and you can tell the difference. Believe me if marque brands like BMW and Porsche start going after masses they will become more generic and not all that desirable by enthusiast.

Is it not strange that right when all these manufacturers (MB, Nissan in Infiniti, Toyota in lexus, Ford in Mustang) are trying hard to be like BMW. The BMW has decided to have a paradigm shift in philosophy. Honestly, you can see Benz, Infiniti and Lexus cars having that character now that BMW was more known for.

I think BMW should not put driving dynamics on back burner in favor of efficient dynamics. A 3 series can still be plenty efficient with great driving dynamics.

As for this EPS stuff in name of fuel efficiency. I am not so sure if it is all that it is being made out to be. Looks like efficiency can be achieved with no EPS...just take a Look at like VW XL1. They found a way to get 260 mpg with no power steering. All because they kept the mass down. I am not saying that 3 series should be like XL1. But rather efficiency can be had by other means without compromising driving feel/feedback which has always been part of great driver cars.

Its not like the entire BMW line up for even all new cars is all hydraulic. Take for example BMW 650i x-drive gran-coupe. It has no EPS and is it a whole lot less efficient.....not really. However, to keep masses happy and so that most would not be able to tell the difference they programmed the hydraulic setup to be as dull as EPS.

I think EPS setups still need a lot of development. They are like the early SMG transmissions have potential but are not great. I think since BMW is always been known for choice it should offer M-sport and sport line with regular hydrualic setups. Those that want more hardcore cars should be able to get fun cars. Those that want soft core cars should go with luxury line or modern line. However, the divide should be clear then. It is no point throwing EPS in a sport pkg or M-sport pkg car because it lacks feel and feedback at the contact patch.

Anyways just sharing my thoughts.
Why such very long posts.
chiefneil commented:
July 30, 2013, 1:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
As for input on these forums trust me BMW folks monitor the feedback to some extent here as well as on other forum. )
I sat next to a BMW marketing mgr on a flight once. I think she was in charge of Eastern region or some such thing. Anyway once we got to talking it was very obvious she'd never read any BMW online forums.

I asked her about many common things mentioned on various forums and magazine reviews and she either professed ignorance or gave the standard marketing line about how wonderful BMW is. The whole conversation was frankly a little disappointing.

Maybe BMW has some marketing people reading forums, but I have a feeling that it isn't widespread.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 30, 2013, 3:06 am

They pop up now and then the famous Scott posts on E90 post. He is the inside BMW guy there. The dodge while designing new Viper did a bit of research on what previous owners wanted improved in a similar fashion ditto for Chevy.

BMW blog, Bimmerfest, Bimmerpost all are monitored to some extent for feedback and as a marketing tool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
I sat next to a BMW marketing mgr on a flight once. I think she was in charge of Eastern region or some such thing. Anyway once we got to talking it was very obvious she'd never read any BMW online forums.

I asked her about many common things mentioned on various forums and magazine reviews and she either professed ignorance or gave the standard marketing line about how wonderful BMW is. The whole conversation was frankly a little disappointing.

Maybe BMW has some marketing people reading forums, but I have a feeling that it isn't widespread.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 30, 2013, 3:12 am

.....I don't know just went a bit to far with my rant. Sorry for hurting your eyes eyes

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Why such very long posts.
K-A commented:
July 30, 2013, 3:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
I sat next to a BMW marketing mgr on a flight once. I think she was in charge of Eastern region or some such thing. Anyway once we got to talking it was very obvious she'd never read any BMW online forums.

I asked her about many common things mentioned on various forums and magazine reviews and she either professed ignorance or gave the standard marketing line about how wonderful BMW is. The whole conversation was frankly a little disappointing.

Maybe BMW has some marketing people reading forums, but I have a feeling that it isn't widespread.
I think they have people who do something or other within the brand who come on forums under the name "SCOTT" followed by numbers. Haven't see any here though, and not sure if it's one person or different people handling those accounts. Also they seem to come more to tell us things rather than absorb feedback (which admittedly could get very messy on a public forum, so I'd assume/hope they'd take some of the serious issues/conversations to the big guys upstairs).
boltjaM3s commented:
July 30, 2013, 2:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

As for input on these forums trust me BMW folks monitor the feedback to some extent here as well as on other forum. Also, I have protested to them in other manners at my disposal. I really like BMW marquee brand for what it used to be. If it does not offer what I am looking for I will eventually move on to find something else. So far I am in disappointment phase.....LOL
No one of any importance or position of influence is reading a boy-racer forum populated by people who aren't the core demographic, and the only time BMW would stoop to such data collection is if sales were off-the-charts bad. Since sales are off-the-charts good, they have nothing to gain here. The F30 is bigger, softer, more luxurious, and more refined because that's what it's 50 year old demographic wants. Most people who want a Honda Civic just go buy the Honda Civic. They don't engage in a one-man marketing campaign against a car brand that doesn't want their business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

Anyways just sharing my thoughts.
And you can stop any time you like.

There are three things going on which have been discussed to death in this forum if you'd bother to read it:

1. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just a marketing ploy to convince yuppie 30-something's that its cool to drive your dad's car.

2. A $50,000 German luxury family sedan should not be confused with or judged against a $20,000 Japanese high school coupe.

3. The 3 Series is the larger/softer sedan and the 1 Series will be the smaller/tighter sedan when its released and make all the whiners happy.

BJ
Keepittrill commented:
July 30, 2013, 7:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No one of any importance or position of influence is reading a boy-racer forum populated by people who aren't the core demographic, and the only time BMW would stoop to such data collection is if sales were off-the-charts bad. Since sales are off-the-charts good, they have nothing to gain here. The F30 is bigger, softer, more luxurious, and more refined because that's what it's 50 year old demographic wants. Most people who want a Honda Civic just go buy the Honda Civic. They don't engage in a one-man marketing campaign against a car brand that doesn't want their business.



And you can stop any time you like.

There are three things going on which have been discussed to death in this forum if you'd bother to read it:

1. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just a marketing ploy to convince yuppie 30-something's that its cool to drive your dad's car.

2. A $50,000 German luxury family sedan should not be confused with or judged against a $20,000 Japanese high school coupe.

3. The 3 Series is the larger/softer sedan and the 1 Series will be the smaller/tighter sedan when its released and make all the whiners happy.

BJ
BMW NA commented on someone's post recently regarding his car bursting into flame after an accident. They wanted to get in touch immediately. Your argument is invalid. They're here. They're watching...


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Kayani_1 commented:
July 30, 2013, 7:49 pm

You might consider yourself a boy racer taking part in this forum. However, I call these folks on this forum enthusiast owners. So please don't label me and others as yourself.

Second, you might find FWD generic Civic to be the ideal specimen for a hardcore luxury sport sedan. I think including me most would disagree with you on that. Because that is the segment BMW ruled for decades.

You might be right on one account and that is how BMW is now more focused on desiring sales of 50 plus shallow guys. The ones who mainly buy a base 3 series BMW as some sort of a superficial status symbol. All because that is the minimum requirement at their country club to get entry for them to find dates for their children with children of wealthy parents. As mentioned earlier by you that was your motivation behind owning a base BMW 3 series.

The market sample of these shallow 50 plus guys could be easily satisfied by any handful of other luxury brands. Because they are all about badge as status symbol and not driving dynamics. They are badge jumpers who will jump to the next shiny badge that makes them look part of a country club parking lot.

Now, to be honest maybe folks like this don't belong on these boy racer forums as u like to call them. So maybe you can go hangout at that country club with your ubber base 3 series and leave us enthusiast to discuss the merits of BMW cars. While at it take your own advice and go get Civic for your performance luxury sedan next purchase.

Last, but not least I told you once and will tell you that I don't need the kind of you telling me when or what to post.








Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No one of any importance or position of influence is reading a boy-racer forum populated by people who aren't the core demographic, and the only time BMW would stoop to such data collection is if sales were off-the-charts bad. Since sales are off-the-charts good, they have nothing to gain here. The F30 is bigger, softer, more luxurious, and more refined because that's what it's 50 year old demographic wants. Most people who want a Honda Civic just go buy the Honda Civic. They don't engage in a one-man marketing campaign against a car brand that doesn't want their business.



And you can stop any time you like.

There are three things going on which have been discussed to death in this forum if you'd bother to read it:

1. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" was just a marketing ploy to convince yuppie 30-something's that its cool to drive your dad's car.

2. A $50,000 German luxury family sedan should not be confused with or judged against a $20,000 Japanese high school coupe.

3. The 3 Series is the larger/softer sedan and the 1 Series will be the smaller/tighter sedan when its released and make all the whiners happy.

BJ