Motor Trend Compares the Top of the Midsize Sedan Premium Segment - BMW Wins

by Bimmerfest.com Member - Jp23rockstar on July 15, 2013, 5:27 pm
Motortrend Comparison - BMW 335xi Wins

Motor Trend has done an extensive comparison of the midsize sedan premium segment and has put the BMW 335i xDrive up against the Audi S4, Cadillac ATS4 3.6, Lexus IS 350 AWD and Volvo S60 T6. Unlike the last time when the ATS was favored, this time the BMW comes out on top.

Motortrend Comparison Review


5th Place: Volvo S60
While safe and competent, the Volvo failed to get anyone's pulse racing. The competition remains extremely strong and a refresh is coming soon.

4th Place: Cadillac ATS
Without question, the best driving car here, but last or near last in every other category. Cadillac has a great starting point, but it needs to finish the job.

3rd Place: Lexus IS 350
A solid value and a welcome refresh. We would have loved to have see an F-Sport with AWD, and though we asked for it, Lexus didn't have one available. Also, the front of this car is too homely for it to place any higher.

2nd Place: Audi S4
Muscular, brutish, and confidence-inspiring, the S4 is let down by its age and a slightly underwhelming driving experience. Still, what an impressive athlete.

1st Place: BMW 335i xdrive
Featuring the best combination of everything, the latest 3 Series just doesn't have any glaring flaws. It's still the master of the segment it created.

Read the Full Comparison Here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._sport_sedans/


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88 responses to Motor Trend Compares the Top of the Midsize Sedan Premium Segment - BMW Wins

LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 15, 2013, 5:59 pm

In their last comparison the ATS came out on top.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_comparison/
It is without a question the best sport sedan in this class today.
captainaudio commented:
July 15, 2013, 6:03 pm

But this time BMW won!

Its amazing how much the Motor Trend testers learned in such a short time.

CA
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 15, 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
But this time BMW won!

Its amazing how much the Motor Trend testers learned in such a short time.

CA
It won in where it matters least and lost where it matters most. Sure it is a the best overall car out of the bunch but lacks in the "sport" department.

"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago."

The chassis in the ATS is untouchable and with the V6 TT in the works for the V as well as the 8 speed transmission on the way, it is game over. I also have no doubt the laggy CUE issues will eventually be worked out.
captainaudio commented:
July 15, 2013, 6:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It won in where it matters least and lost where it matters most. Sure it is a the best overall car out of the bunch but lacks in the "sport" department.

"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago."

The chassis in the ATS is untouchable and with the V6 TT in the works for the V as well as the 8 speed transmission on the way, it is game over. I also have no doubt the laggy CUE issues will eventually be worked out.
I don't think that most of the people here who are disappointed in the direction that BMW has taken with the new 3 think it is a bad car but BMW has apparently gone in a direction that many long term loyalists are not happy with. The fact that it appeals to a wider customer base will not be a consolation to them.

It is like a favorite restaurant that changes its menu and stops serving the food you like. It may be perfectly good food and it may lead to a substantial increase in business but the bottom line is that you don't like the food anymore and other customers raving about how wonderful it is is probably not going to change your mind.

The solution to this dilemma would be to go to a different restaurant or buy a different kind of car. In both cases there will be a number of regular customers who will conclude that that things they don't like as well as the previous model (or menu) are not significant enought to make them change.

CA
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 15, 2013, 7:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't think that most of the people here who are disappointed in the direction that BMW has taken with the new 3 think it is a bad car but BMW has apparently gone in a direction that many long term loyalists are not happy with. The fact that it appeals to a wider customer base will not be a consolation to them.

It is like a favorite restaurant that changes its menu and stops serving the food you like. It may be perfectly good food and it may lead to a substantial increase in business but the bottom line is that you don't like the food anymore and other customers raving about how wonderful it is is probably not going to change your mind.

The solution to this dilemma would be to go to a different restaurant or buy a different kind of car. In both cases there will be a number of regular customers who will conclude that that things they don't like as well as the previous model (or menu) are not significant enought to make them change.

CA
It is more like a favorite burger joint that stopped serving beef.
jlukja commented:
July 15, 2013, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It is more like a favorite burger joint that stopped serving beef.
So, you're saying to BMW, "Where's the beef?"
jjrandorin commented:
July 15, 2013, 7:22 pm

I had the over / under in my head at 4 posts before either "legends never die" or "Saintor" posted something on this thread. In reference to your last post.... if your favorite restaurant stopped service beef, there is nothing stopping you from buying it somewhere else. Standing out front with signs and pitchforks probably wont make them serve beef again if they had decided to go in another direction. Neither will internet forums. Pretty much the ONLY thing that will make them realize the direction is wrong (if it is indeed wrong) is to take your money somewhere else. If enough people do that, a company will change. Absent that, sales of product normally = customer acceptance.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 15, 2013, 7:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
But this time BMW won!

Its amazing how much the Motor Trend testers learned in such a short time.

CA
That's because they were tricked into thinking Cadi was a re-badged BMW.
sunny5280 commented:
July 15, 2013, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't think that most of the people here who are disappointed in the direction that BMW has taken with the new 3 think it is a bad car but BMW has apparently gone in a direction that many long term loyalists are not happy with. The fact that it appeals to a wider customer base will not be a consolation to them.

It is like a favorite restaurant that changes its menu and stops serving the food you like. It may be perfectly good food and it may lead to a substantial increase in business but the bottom line is that you don't like the food anymore and other customers raving about how wonderful it is is probably not going to change your mind.

The solution to this dilemma would be to go to a different restaurant or buy a different kind of car. In both cases there will be a number of regular customers who will conclude that that things they don't like as well as the previous model (or menu) are not significant enought to make them change.
BMW may have felt they had no choice but to expand their customer base or else risk becoming irrelevant. Their business model may not have been sustainable over the long term selling vehicles to just the enthusiast market.
captainaudio commented:
July 15, 2013, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW may have felt they had no choice but to expand their customer base or else risk becoming irrelevant. Their business model may not have been sustainable over the long term selling vehicles to just the enthusiast market.
BMW has been becoming more and more of a mainstream auto maker for a number of years.

CA
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 15, 2013, 8:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
I had the over / under in my head at 4 posts before either "legends never die" or "Saintor" posted something on this thread. In reference to your last post.... if your favorite restaurant stopped service beef, there is nothing stopping you from buying it somewhere else. Standing out front with signs and pitchforks probably wont make them serve beef again if they had decided to go in another direction. Neither will internet forums. Pretty much the ONLY thing that will make them realize the direction is wrong (if it is indeed wrong) is to take your money somewhere else. If enough people do that, a company will change. Absent that, sales of product normally = customer acceptance.
I happen to also like other brands and I will give credit where credit is due. In this case the ATS deserves the most. This is an enthusiasts forum and the ATS was the best driver's car out of the bunch.
justinnum1 commented:
July 15, 2013, 9:03 pm

legends is butt hurt lmao
bighorns commented:
July 15, 2013, 9:06 pm

I thought that the 1 series is the new 3?
EstorilF30 commented:
July 15, 2013, 9:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighorns View Post
I thought that the 1 series is the new 3?
It would be nice if they followed Audi, who made their A3 a sedan, and made a 1 series sedan and brought it to the states.

If you want a small sport sedan from BMW, you're out of luck, since the F30 has grown wider by 2 inches and longer by 6 inches compared to the E46.
Al Bundy commented:
July 16, 2013, 12:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW may have felt they had no choice but to expand their customer base or else risk becoming irrelevant. Their business model may not have been sustainable over the long term selling vehicles to just the enthusiast market.


Indeed...but why not maintain/improve upon the enthusiast's product while also adding a product for the mainstream...rather than seemingly kicking the enthusiasts to the curb?
jjrandorin commented:
July 16, 2013, 12:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Indeed...but why not maintain/improve upon the enthusiast's product while also adding a product for the mainstream...rather than seemingly kicking the enthusiasts to the curb?
Enthusiasts are great for brand awareness, but are always very vocal, and usually very picky. In this case, they probably are not nearly profitable enough for their vocal nature.

I am obviously speculating, but its probably much more profitable to "go mainstream". Hopefully they can find a middle ground


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
captainaudio commented:
July 16, 2013, 12:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Indeed...but why not maintain/improve upon the enthusiast's product while also adding a product for the mainstream...rather than seemingly kicking the enthusiasts to the curb?
Good question.
enigma commented:
July 16, 2013, 12:38 am

Another interesting review. Although I still don't understand how they came up with the ranking, but a win is a win.

It's a shame that BMW is no longer the undisputed champ in handling and driver involvement though. While we can claim that the 1er is the 3er, we are comparing cars in the same segment, and BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan has become just a marketing tool.
Technic commented:
July 16, 2013, 5:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It is more like a favorite burger joint that stopped serving beef.
IMO, I think that it is not that they stopped serving beef, it is that they started serving undercooked beef.

The common denominator that so far has been reported by all magazines comparos about the F30 is that the ride and handling have been changed, soften, diminished, whatever. But what is really interesting to me is that the BMW Sports Suspension (704) is the one that they are complaining about.

I would have expected complaints about the base suspension, especially now that it is the standard suspension even on the upcoming 4-Series. But I do not understand why messing with the 704 when it is an optional suspension. Why BMW cannot please both type of customers?

Or is it that they found out that they are the same customer but looking for better seats only?
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 16, 2013, 5:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't think that most of the people here who are disappointed in the direction that BMW has taken with the new 3 think it is a bad car but BMW has apparently gone in a direction that many long term loyalists are not happy with. The fact that it appeals to a wider customer base will not be a consolation to them.

It is like a favorite restaurant that changes its menu and stops serving the food you like. It may be perfectly good food and it may lead to a substantial increase in business but the bottom line is that you don't like the food anymore and other customers raving about how wonderful it is is probably not going to change your mind.

The solution to this dilemma would be to go to a different restaurant or buy a different kind of car. In both cases there will be a number of regular customers who will conclude that that things they don't like as well as the previous model (or menu) are not significant enought to make them change.

CA
Well said.
hans007 commented:
July 16, 2013, 6:44 am

at least people are finally giving up on making excuses for CUE.

i sat in an ATS 3.6 before i got my BMW (i'm 99% sure i would never have bought it to begin with, but had to check it out .... dealer experience was god awful btw).

and CUE is a horrible horrible system. it is so awful if i had an ATS i'd just want a big ass hole in my center console for a double din after market anything unit because all of them would be better than CUE
OBS3SSION commented:
July 16, 2013, 8:55 am

A few observations...

CUE sucks, but so did iDrive when it came out.

Every review I've read about the F30, including the Automobile All Stars issue says if you want a 3 series, you have to get the Sport or M Sport Line, otherwise you are just getting a soft, luxury (dare I say Buick-like) ride. And to make it better, get the DHP on top of that.

BMW isn't the only brand pissing off enthusiasts. I think every brand does that. Enthusiasts are notoriously hard to please, and generally despise change. VW is moving away from sporty hot-hatches and quirky German cars to more mainstream volume sellers. Dare I say bland cars. Ford and Chevy update the Mustang and Corvette and old-schoolers balk. What's going to happen when Ford bolts an independent suspension on the back of the Mustang!? And so on with other brands;l Toyota, Honda, Audi, etc.

BMW wants volume. They are getting it by catering to the masses, which is exactly the kind of cars we enthusiasts DON'T want. The masses spend a lot more money and buy a lot more cars than we do. We lose.
JoeFromPA commented:
July 16, 2013, 9:30 am

Enthusiast line of reasoning:

- If you change your engine/suspension/transmission style, you are throwing away the brand
- if you don't keep acceleration,power, and handling numbers along with the competition, you are losing the brand
- If you add lots of features that add weight, you are losing your sporting touch
- If you lack alot of features compared to the competition, you are asking me to go check out the competition
- No enthusiast sees any conflict with the above lines

Luckily, enthusiasts are not good business people and thus BMW has done well for itself.

From my perspective BMW is moving to a business model that serves the masses best with alot of options for the enthusiast to add-on.

We'll also see how they do the new m3. In the e90 series, the most sporting models were the e92 335i or 335is and moderately optioned models were running $55-60k. Maybe BMW is simply thinking that they can get those buyers to move into the m3 at ~$60-65k?
rdkind62 commented:
July 16, 2013, 9:52 am

I think another thing that BMW is doing is getting a little more separation between their sedans and their coupes. They mention specifically in their release on the new 4 series that it has a more rigid frame and better handling. Maybe they are trying to push some people from sedans up a few thousand dollars to the coupes.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 16, 2013, 10:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkind62 View Post
I think another thing that BMW is doing is getting a little more separation between their sedans and their coupes. They mention specifically in their release on the new 4 series that it has a more rigid frame and better handling. Maybe they are trying to push some people from sedans up a few thousand dollars to the coupes.
That is definitely in line with their movement to eradicating the MT on the xDrive 428 and 328 and forcing you up to the 435 and 335.

I don't trust the BMW rep though, I'll wait for real world third party reviews on if the 4 series is actually stiffer and raw with handling like the outgoing E92.
samualcc commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:13 am

Anyone else notice that the BMW seems to have been equipped with the Power Pack/BMW tune? I didn't see mention to it in the article but looking at the listed HP and Torque, it appears that this 335 had a bunch of extras on it beyond a brake kit.
sunny5280 commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMW has been becoming more and more of a mainstream auto maker for a number of years.
I agree. The question is: Why are they moving more mainstream? As I stated in my post it's my opinion they had no choice. It may be the enthusiast market is too small to sustain BMW over the long term.
sunny5280 commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Indeed...but why not maintain/improve upon the enthusiast's product while also adding a product for the mainstream...rather than seemingly kicking the enthusiasts to the curb?
It's my understanding sales of the 3-series comprise the bulk of BMW sales. Thus making the 3-series the mainstream. Perhaps BMW's thought is if you're an enthusiast you should look into the M series.
beden1 commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:38 am

It may be just more practical for all car manufacturers to design and produce cars that can handle the poor road conditions that continue to deteriorate throughout the world. I've noticed my PA area roads getting worse and worse each year with little light at the end of the tunnnel for much improvement.

Our utilities have been replacing old sewer and water lines throughout my region for the past several years. They tear up the right half of the road and then patch it, leaving an uneven and rough surface. The utilities are supposed to pay 1/3rd toward road resurfacing, but the state and township don't have the budget to come up with the remaining 2/3rds. Now, at least half of our roads have lousy driving surfaces.

The same was true, and even much worse, when my wife and I recently visited Syracuse, NY. I had planned to take my Porsche for a road trip to the area but thanked my lucky stars that I didn't. My wife's 535xi didn't fare well on those crappy roads either, so we ended up leaving her car parked and using my mother-in-laws' Lincoln.

Unfortunately, the way it's going, it's the SUVs and slushy sedans that will be the only ones that can survive the NE roads and many other regions of the US.
Al Bundy commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
It's my understanding sales of the 3-series comprise the bulk of BMW sales. Thus making the 3-series the mainstream. Perhaps BMW's thought is if you're an enthusiast you should look into the M series.


Fair point...though I think you'll price a lot of enthusiasts out of the market if that's the strategy. But as mentioned earlier, BMW doesn't really need the enthusiast market, so I guess they have little reason to care.
bighorns commented:
July 16, 2013, 11:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
It's my understanding sales of the 3-series comprise the bulk of BMW sales. Thus making the 3-series the mainstream. Perhaps BMW's thought is if you're an enthusiast you should look into the M series.
Or have to buy a whole lot of (expensive) M performance parts to make the car 'sporty'.
Supermax commented:
July 16, 2013, 12:44 pm

What amazes me, review after review, is that nobody ever mentions DHP. I've seen reviews of BMW's with and without DHP, and in both cases, the reviewers don't say a word about it, as if they never tried it or even know what it does.

On here everybody and their dog knows that you practically need DHP on an X-drive. Meanwhile these reviewers, who supposedly know a lot more about cars than we do, never mention it. They just say that the X-drive rides soft, and that seems to be the main problem they have with it. Well no ****. Why don't they request a car with DHP and actually use it, and then write about that?

It's kind of silly that BMW requires you to get a specific option for certain models just to have a "BMW-feeling car", but that's just the reality. I'm very surprised that all the car mags don't seem to know this basic info though....or if they do, never say a word about it.
sunny5280 commented:
July 16, 2013, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Fair point...though I think you'll price a lot of enthusiasts out of the market if that's the strategy. But as mentioned earlier, BMW doesn't really need the enthusiast market, so I guess they have little reason to care.
And herein lies to problem. If BMW were to focus on the enthusiast base would there be sufficient sales volume to keep the price affordable for the enthusiast? If non-enthusiasts were to jump ship to the competition BMW might be forced to increase prices to compensate thus pricing out the very buyers of their focus.
jlukja commented:
July 16, 2013, 3:43 pm

Geez, imagine the posts if the BMW didn't finish 1st in the comparison.
t335xi commented:
July 16, 2013, 8:05 pm

I think out of everything out there the 335xi is still the best thing currently being offered in its class... Crazy fast, handles well, perfect interior, great options. That being said I am constantly dissappointed by the steering and soft bouncy suspension (non DHP here).

BEDEN1 the roads out west are just as bad. My daily drive involves a freeway that literally has speedbumps in the form of bridge to road joints, and some sinkhole kind of dips that drop the car almost 6 inches, all these are unmarked witha speed of 65mph so if you hit these unknowingly your screwed.

If they want to cater to the mainstream fine, but what would be ideal is if they were able to fix the noticeably bad steering with a sport steering option, and fix the noticeably soft/bouncy damping on the suspension with something above and beyond the DHP currently offered. Maybe call this theoretical fixed package for the enthusiest the 'Sport Line' version . If I had to do it all over again I think I would go with a base M3 as its only about $150 more a month and solves all problems listed here.
LegendsNeverDie commented:
July 17, 2013, 6:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by t335xi View Post
I think out of everything out there the 335xi is still the best thing currently being offered in its class... Crazy fast, handles well, perfect interior, great options. That being said I am constantly dissappointed by the steering and soft bouncy suspension (non DHP here).

BEDEN1 the roads out west are just as bad. My daily drive involves a freeway that literally has speedbumps in the form of bridge to road joints, and some sinkhole kind of dips that drop the car almost 6 inches, all these are unmarked witha speed of 65mph so if you hit these unknowingly your screwed.

If they want to cater to the mainstream fine, but what would be ideal is if they were able to fix the noticeably bad steering with a sport steering option, and fix the noticeably soft/bouncy damping on the suspension with something above and beyond the DHP currently offered. Maybe call this theoretical fixed package for the enthusiest the 'Sport Line' version . If I had to do it all over again I think I would go with a base M3 as its only about $150 more a month and solves all problems listed here.
I think the S4 takes the cake when it comes to AWD sedans but it does cost more. While it rides on an old platform it still comes up on top even against the newest competitors
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...volvo-s60.html
enigma commented:
July 17, 2013, 7:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I think the S4 takes the cake when it comes to AWD sedans but it does cost more. While it rides on an old platform it still comes up on top even against the newest competitors
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...volvo-s60.html
It may not cost more depending how you configure it.

There are also things that you just can't get with the 335i xDrive (e.g. DCT, LSD, Nappa Leather/Alcantara, etc.), and the S4 has more standard features in exchange for a higher starting price.

The price delta between the two is not much, and I don't think too many will be choosing one over the other primarily based on the MSRP.
t335xi commented:
July 17, 2013, 7:49 pm

True but the s4 get 16/20 mpg which is pathetic in 2013
enigma commented:
July 17, 2013, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by t335xi View Post
True but the s4 get 16/20 mpg which is pathetic in 2013
Not accurate. It's 18/28 MPG (compared to 20/30 for 335i xDrive). If 2 MPG is going to be a major factor in your purchase decision, you are looking at the wrong class of cars.

To be clear, I am not advocating that the S4 is a better car. In fact the S4 understeers like a pig and the steering feedback isn't much better, but LSD and DCT make it an attractive alternative when cross-shopping.
t335xi commented:
July 17, 2013, 8:57 pm

17/26 2013 s4 from their website, 23/28 335x again from their site. Big enough difference for me on my dd.
beden1 commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Not accurate. It's 18/28 MPG (compared to 20/30 for 335i xDrive). If 2 MPG is going to be a major factor in your purchase decision, you are looking at the wrong class of cars.

To be clear, I am not advocating that the S4 is a better car. In fact the S4 understeers like a pig and the steering feedback isn't much better, but LSD and DCT make it an attractive alternative when cross-shopping.
I'm not sure what options the S4 had that you drove, but your description does not match up with our S4. In Dynamic mode, the S4 has very responsive steering, tight and accurate in fact, and understeer is about the same as my 335is.
enigma commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by t335xi View Post
17/26 2013 s4 from their website, 23/28 335x again from their site. Big enough difference for me on my dd.
Only if you want to trust manufacturers' numbers.

As flawed as the EPA rating is, it's the only apples-to-apples comparison, which rates 18/28 vs. 20/30.

The MT measured rating is 17.0 vs. 19.2, which is still roughly 2 MPG difference.

If 2 MPG swayed you to buy the BMW, congrats for saving a few bucks.
enigma commented:
July 17, 2013, 9:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I'm not sure what options the S4 had that you drove, but your description does not match up with our S4. In Dynamic mode, the S4 has very responsive steering, tight and accurate in fact, and understeer is about the same as my 335is.
I don't think we are contradicting.

If you re-read my statement, I didn't say it was NOT responsive. I mentioned it rather lacks feedback. Maybe my reference point is off, but the heavy front was noticeably apparent. I did like the manual transmission, which was crispier to shift, but the clutch was a tad too light for my taste.

I can't compare against the 335is since I never sampled it myself, but I can't imagine it being as nose heavy as the S4.
BoostedWhip commented:
July 17, 2013, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
It would be nice if they followed Audi, who made their A3 a sedan, and made a 1 series sedan and brought it to the states.

If you want a small sport sedan from BMW, you're out of luck, since the F30 has grown wider by 2 inches and longer by 6 inches compared to the E46.
I am a new F30 owner coming from a B8 S4 and size was one of the reasons I liked the new 3. I felt it was a lateral move for me in terms of comfort which has become more important to me. I chose the 335i because of the way it looks and the way it sounds. I also wanted RWD after nearly 10 years of Quattro. My S4 was starting to look like every newer A4. Performance wise the S4 wins but not becasue of more power but becasue of the sport diff. Here is a pic of it on its last day. I knew what I was giving up and what I was getting. With 600 miles on the odo and two mods deep (tint and M gloss grills) I love it. Next mod is an amp. A lack of due diligence on my part before getting my car but I hear a JL XD800/8 will do the trick.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
July 17, 2013, 11:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I don't think we are contradicting.

If you re-read my statement, I didn't say it was NOT responsive. I mentioned it rather lacks feedback. Maybe my reference point is off, but the heavy front was noticeably apparent. I did like the manual transmission, which was crispier to shift, but the clutch was a tad too light for my taste.

I can't compare against the 335is since I never sampled it myself, but I can't imagine it being as nose heavy as the S4.
The RS5 is nose heavy too. I did a review. All the magic trick diffs can't make up for the weight this thing has to haul.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=709161
beden1 commented:
July 18, 2013, 12:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I don't think we are contradicting.

If you re-read my statement, I didn't say it was NOT responsive. I mentioned it rather lacks feedback. Maybe my reference point is off, but the heavy front was noticeably apparent. I did like the manual transmission, which was crispier to shift, but the clutch was a tad too light for my taste.

I can't compare against the 335is since I never sampled it myself, but I can't imagine it being as nose heavy as the S4.
Try driving an S4 with PDK and sport differential. I think you'll find it a world of difference.
beden1 commented:
July 18, 2013, 12:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedWhip View Post
I am a new F30 owner coming from a B8 S4 and size was one of the reasons I liked the new 3. I felt it was a lateral move for me in terms of comfort which has become more important to me. I chose the 335i because of the way it looks and the way it sounds. I also wanted RWD after nearly 10 years of Quattro. My S4 was starting to look like every newer A4. Performance wise the S4 wins but not becasue of more power but becasue of the sport diff. Here is a pic of it on its last day. I knew what I was giving up and what I was getting. With 600 miles on the odo and two mods deep (tint and M gloss grills) I love it. Next mod is an amp. A lack of due diligence on my part before getting my car but I hear a JL XD800/8 will do the trick.
Ouch! Sorry for your loss.
t335xi commented:
July 18, 2013, 1:07 am

Aww poor s4... I test drove one with all the options but their financing wasn't competitive and it had a few dash squeeks and rattles on the test drive.. also a ton of torque steer. Faster isn't always the winning point..

Enigma most consumers go off the manufacturers fuel tags as a point of comparison. If anything mpg is worse... But I'm sure many forums have other threads dealing with fuel economy. If they are way off someone should have the cars retested like the 335 was.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 19, 2013, 3:05 am

Here is my opinion after reading this article.

My disappointment with F30 continues. It is the most expensive car in this group with all the optional performance stuff you can nearly pile on. Yet it barely hangs with an older S4 in straight line and despite having $3K M performance brake kit does not match S4 in braking.......ouch that is tough.

I was most looking forward to reading about F30's handling and steering feel/feed back. In those regards this is what the article had to say.

"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago, "I don't like the steering." What's wrong with it? Like the S4s, it's detached. "Steering actually has some feel. Not a lot, but some," he continued. Adding all that AWD hardware sure didn't help the 335ix out. Kong noted that the BMW "feels ready to oversteer." Its ride was the softest of the group.



I am not so sure if I should laugh or cry after reading this comparison test.

I think it is a sad day in BMW history when a BMW wins comparisons based on Curb appeal rather then driving dynamics.

This is what happens when BMW design car based on their new Slogan of Efficient Dynamics. Please, return us to the days when slogan was Driving Dynamics.
Nedmundo commented:
July 19, 2013, 9:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
IMO, I think that it is not that they stopped serving beef, it is that they started serving undercooked beef.

The common denominator that so far has been reported by all magazines comparos about the F30 is that the ride and handling have been changed, soften, diminished, whatever. But what is really interesting to me is that the BMW Sports Suspension (704) is the one that they are complaining about.

I would have expected complaints about the base suspension, especially now that it is the standard suspension even on the upcoming 4-Series. But I do not understand why messing with the 704 when it is an optional suspension. Why BMW cannot please both type of customers?

Or is it that they found out that they are the same customer but looking for better seats only?
My views exactly. I cannot fault BMW for making a 3 Series with broader appeal in base form. That's just good business. However, I cannot comprehend the considerable softening of the Sport Line and its light, numb steering. Traditionally, the Sport Package was enough to satisfy a discerning enthusiast who wasn't willing or able to step up to the M3, but now, apparently, BMW wants folks to ante up for PPK, M suspension parts, etc. (I'm still hoping and assuming the steering will be worked out.)

By the way, in the long run I don't think alienating the enthusiast market is good business either. Enthusiasts tend to promote their cars and influence others, so their impact is felt beyond their relatively small numbers. When enthusiasts start telling people that BMW is no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine," some of those people might go elsewhere, even if they aren't after serious driver's cars. The image should be backed up by substance. Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans? I doubt it.
bighorns commented:
July 19, 2013, 9:59 am

^^ I think that you nailed it! ^^
Elk commented:
July 19, 2013, 8:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans?
BMW has already decided it is willing for this to occur.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 19, 2013, 10:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
BMW has already decided it is willing for this to occur.
Yet Lexus and Cadillac aren't really stomping the competition in reviews, so BMW hasn't lost their edge ...
Kayani_1 commented:
July 20, 2013, 4:00 am

Says who?

The new IS 350 F-sport just recently beat BMW F30 335i M-sport based on better driving dynamics in a recent 5 car comparison. So when is the last time a 3 series in BMW history has ever lost to a Lexus IS.

I think it is getting a bit sad for BMW enthusiast to know how their brand is being diluted day by day in name of good business.

A good business mantra......I say my behind.

A good business sense would be to realize what brought them to be such a coveted brand to begin with. It was not by making cars that appealed to masses. To be honest BMW was never for those guys that wanted curb appeal or soft core floaty luxury rides or dash strokers. It was also not for wife's and old folks that complained about steering wheel being on the heavy side because it was hard for them to deal with mall parking lot maneuvers.

Because you know what you could buy a lot of other cars that had greater looks and curb appeal. There were also cars out there that were more ideal for dash strokers not to mention car that were far more luxurious feeling with soft floaty rides to satisfy those with back issues from old age or injuries.

The reason BMW became popular was because it was made for those that wanted a driving dynamics of Porsche like sports cars with seating for 4-5 and greater practicality. Folks that wanted to drive a car that was as close to a sports car without sacrificing the practicality of carrying a family. A car that would put a smile on your face during daily driving and not only good for tracking. A car that felt connected to driver with excellent driving dynamics.

Enthusiast, are the one that build this brand. Because everyone wanted to find out what was so good about BMW's that these enthusiast would swear by it. It started to gain ground over cars like MB and Audi. The BMW brand established it self with slogans of driving dynamics first. If you wanted the best in sports luxury BMW was the name to reckon with.

It got down to a point that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a BMW. They do not fully understand why but it is because it is the best in its class. However, after owning one they will gripe oh the steering is too heavy my wrist hurts, the dash is not as nice as Audi, the luxury/curb appeal is not as good as MB. The ride is not as soft as Lexus and neither are the gizmos.

So here comes BMW upper management lusting after these new found customers who did not enjoy BMW core values as they they never understood them. They just bought BMW's as some sort of status symbol of owning the best in its class.

In order to attract more of these so called greater sales and new found customers BMW changed its slogan to Efficient dynamics. Now BMW have become more about efficiency and soft core luxury and tech gizmos then driving dynamics.

Thus, the most soft core 3 series in BMW's history called F30 is here. Ditto with F10 and others.

Anyways my 2 cents.....End rant.
Mo@BMWRockville commented:
July 20, 2013, 4:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
My views exactly. I cannot fault BMW for making a 3 Series with broader appeal in base form. That's just good business. However, I cannot comprehend the considerable softening of the Sport Line and its light, numb steering. Traditionally, the Sport Package was enough to satisfy a discerning enthusiast who wasn't willing or able to step up to the M3, but now, apparently, BMW wants folks to ante up for PPK, M suspension parts, etc. (I'm still hoping and assuming the steering will be worked out.)

By the way, in the long run I don't think alienating the enthusiast market is good business either. Enthusiasts tend to promote their cars and influence others, so their impact is felt beyond their relatively small numbers. When enthusiasts start telling people that BMW is no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine," some of those people might go elsewhere, even if they aren't after serious driver's cars. The image should be backed up by substance. Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans? I doubt it.
When the BMW badge alone will make them money, then yes.
IndyMike commented:
July 20, 2013, 9:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWRockville View Post
When the BMW badge alone will make them money, then yes.
But for how long?

I've been with the marque for 23 years now. I've owned E30, E36, E46 (3), E91 and E82 (2).

I've had.................transmissions fail at 25k miles.....window regulators groan and croak............cylinders misfire generating the ubiquitous 'Check Engine' light...........batteries die way before their time..........to drive in limp mode for a while because the high pressure fuel pump crapped out at 7k miles................and other ad nausea little "quirks" that come with owning the marque.

Though the rides been bumpy at times I've stuck around because frankly no other marque has had the perfect blend that has been the hallmark of BMW's............. until now.

Will these Toyota, Honda and Lexus owners they are pandering to stick around beyond their current lease merely for the badge once they experience one of these burps, or have a crappy service experience or two?

Frankly, I'm done with any new BMW if they decide that pumping out $50k 4 bangers that handle and steer like a Buick is the wave of the future. I played that scene for a year with an 01 E46 cab, and of all the niggles I've persevered through that was by far the most painful.

That's the gamble as I see it.

It used to be that other makes would buy BMW's just to have their engineers tear it apart and analyze it to see why everything meshed so well. And despite their efforts, while they might be able to duplicate the individual parts, they never could duplicate that unique attribute of 'soul' and synergy once they put everything back together on their own platform.

Little did they know all they needed to do was wait for BMW to bring down the bar, and risk losing its "soul" all by themselves.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 20, 2013, 9:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post
But for how long?

I've been with the marque for 23 years now. I've owned E30, E36, E46 (3), E91 and E82 (2).

I've had.................transmissions fail at 25k miles.....window regulators groan and croak............cylinders misfire generating the ubiquitous 'Check Engine' light...........batteries die way before their time..........to drive in limp mode for a while because the high pressure fuel pump crapped out at 7k miles................and other ad nausea little "quirks" that come with owning the marque.

Though the rides been bumpy at times I've stuck around because frankly no other marque has had the perfect blend that has been the hallmark of BMW's............. until now.

Will these Toyota, Honda and Lexus owners they are pandering to stick around beyond their current lease merely for the badge once they experience one of these burps, or have a crappy service experience or two?

Frankly, I'm done with any new BMW if they decide that pumping out $50k 4 bangers that handle and steer like a Buick is the wave of the future. I played that scene for a year with an 01 E46 cab, and of all the niggles I've persevered through that was by far the most painful.

That's the gamble as I see it.

It used to be that other makes would buy BMW's just to have their engineers tear it apart and analyze it to see why everything meshed so well. And despite their efforts, while they might be able to duplicate the individual parts, they never could duplicate that unique attribute of 'soul' and synergy once they put everything back together on their own platform.

Little did they know all they needed to do was wait for BMW to bring down the bar, and risk losing its "soul" all by themselves.
Sad but true.

I don't see myself ever buying a Mercedes, but Audi has made great leaps in performance while retaining competitive pricing next to BMW.

Hell, if the ATS proves itself with the redesign, I may consider that. It's not a BMW but it seems to drive better than one in some ways while being a hell lot cheaper.
Al Bundy commented:
July 20, 2013, 12:57 pm

FWIW, when we recently had an F30 loaner, even my wife came away unimpressed/disappointed. Huge red flag to me as she is by no means an enthusiast, yet could immediately tell the difference in handling from our E90, and in general did not care for it. Part of it may have been it was AT instead of our usual preference of a MT, so there's already an inherent disconnect from the car.


Now, this isnt to say we've written the F30 as a next car or that we think its a bad car, just that there will be other vehicles that we look at as well.
dsackman commented:
July 20, 2013, 5:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
FWIW, when we recently had an F30 loaner, even my wife came away unimpressed/disappointed. Huge red flag to me as she is by no means an enthusiast, yet could immediately tell the difference in handling from our E90, and in general did not care for it. Part of it may have been it was AT instead of our usual preference of a MT, so there's already an inherent disconnect from the car.


Now, this isnt to say we've written the F30 as a next car or that we think its a bad car, just that there will be other vehicles that we look at as well.

I even went so far as to buy one for my wife, just assuming that the 2012 328 will be a real BMW. Well, she has taken over my Golf TDI, I got to drive the Audi Q5 every day now and I am looking for someone to get me out of a BMW lease. The car is just sitting there with no takers to drive it...

Serious disappointment.


.
sunny5280 commented:
July 20, 2013, 7:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I think it is a sad day in BMW history when a BMW wins comparisons based on Curb appeal rather then driving dynamics.
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
jjrandorin commented:
July 20, 2013, 8:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
This

Vote with your wallet. Buy the Lexus. BMW is having record sales so its obviously working. It's your money so buy another car and don't look back.

If you do not feel BMW is producing a car for you buy an Audi / Lexus / MB.

"I" like my 335 sport line though, and it performs well enough for me


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minn19 commented:
July 20, 2013, 10:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
This

Vote with your wallet. Buy the Lexus. BMW is having record sales so its obviously working. It's your money so buy another car and don't look back.

If you do not feel BMW is producing a car for you buy an Audi / Lexus / MB.

"I" like my 335 sport line though, and it performs well enough for me


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This, +

If you don't like any other brands offerings you can go the used route. I just did a quick search of used E9x's and there tons of low mileage reasonably priced ones out there. So you can drive an E9x car until the next 3er generation comes out.

Then in 2018 when BMW comes out with an all electric 3 series you can go on that forum and bash a whole new car and their owners.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 21, 2013, 5:37 pm

That is until they realize that the brand flourished by the passion of enthusiast that stuck by for decades. It was they who made the brand what it was by their loyalty and by their wallets and by them swearing that no one does sports luxury like BMW.

All these new customers from Lexus, MB, Audi.....etc.etc......are here today and will jump to the next best iphone on 4 wheels.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
Geekenstein commented:
July 21, 2013, 7:42 pm

For what it's worth, I'll give you all a non-brand-loyal, first-time BMW owner perspective. I test drove an ATS. It was duly noted that it had slightly better steering feel and driving dynamics (although poorer acceleration) than the 328i. Then I sat in the rear seat and noted how cramped it was. I gawked at the hideously flashy interior. I noted that you have to pay extra for folding rear seats. I fumbled with the weird touch-screen entertainment/navigation system. (and why touch screen? I don't want to lean over and stare at a screen while I'm trying to drive.) Then I decided there was just no question the BMW was the better sports sedan. "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette. The ultimate value in a sports sedan? Absolutely.
sunny5280 commented:
July 21, 2013, 7:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
That is until they realize that the brand flourished by the passion of enthusiast that stuck by for decades. It was they who made the brand what it was by their loyalty and by their wallets and by them swearing that no one does sports luxury like BMW.

All these new customers from Lexus, MB, Audi.....etc.etc......are here today and will jump to the next best iphone on 4 wheels.
I've heard similar comments from Mac users about how Apple is abandoning them. Perhaps you're right and once the iPod / iPhone / iPad "fads" wear off and consumers look elsewhere Mac users may once again become important to Apple. But then Apple was pretty much out of the running when they were merely making computers.

I see a lot of parallels here with BMW.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 21, 2013, 7:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I've heard similar comments from Mac users about how Apple is abandoning them. Perhaps you're right and once the iPod / iPhone / iPad "fads" wear off and consumers look elsewhere Mac users may once again become important to Apple. But then Apple was pretty much out of the running when they were merely making computers.

I see a lot of parallels here with BMW.
I feel like companies tend to arc, and not run in cycles like that.

I'm a huge Apple fan, but they seem to be hitting their peak, and after that I'm not sure if they will ever rebound to the level they were at before.
minn19 commented:
July 21, 2013, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekenstein View Post
For what it's worth, I'll give you all a non-brand-loyal, first-time BMW owner perspective. I test drove an ATS. It was duly noted that it had slightly better steering feel and driving dynamics (although poorer acceleration) than the 328i. Then I sat in the rear seat and noted how cramped it was. I gawked at the hideously flashy interior. I noted that you have to pay extra for folding rear seats. I fumbled with the weird touch-screen entertainment/navigation system. (and why touch screen? I don't want to lean over and stare at a screen while I'm trying to drive.) Then I decided there was just no question the BMW was the better sports sedan. "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette. The ultimate value in a sports sedan? Absolutely.
I agree with your assessment of both cars. I never drove the ATS so I cannot comment on how it drove, and I know styling is subjective, but I could never get past that massive gaudy Cadillac symbol on the grill. I'm also not a huge fan of the overall exterior/interior styling and all the chrome that Cadillac's seem to have a lot of.

I also had a Camry with a touchscreen Entune nav/radio system and I was not a fan. It sucked trying to search for specific songs or playlists and inevitably you would hit a selection you didn't mean to make and have to start over. I to like the iDrive wheel system much better. Especially living in Minnesota when it seems like we have gloves on for 6 months out of the year.
mark_12345 commented:
July 21, 2013, 10:17 pm

S4 vs 335i xDrive ... tough choice.
My friend is a mechanic and worked for Audi and now BMW. He says both cars are about the same in performance and day-to-day handling/ride/performance, etc.
From his point of view, what separates S4 vs 335 is that BMW is much easier to maintain than Audi. Access to certain areas in the engine bay and electronics are easier on the BMW vs Audi. However, he says you can't go wrong with either one...
Kayani_1 commented:
July 22, 2013, 11:31 pm

One does not have to settle for a Corvette or Porsche if you want ultimate driving machine in a form of a compact to midsize sedan in the luxury sport range. Because neither one of them offer one. If they did BMW would not be the name to reckon with in luxury sport class.

The BMW was the name in ultimate driving machine when it came down to the compact-midsize luxury sports sedan category and dominated it for a long time. It is now down to a more diluted version of what it once was. It is still good but not excellent at the expense of appealing to masses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekenstein View Post
"The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 22, 2013, 11:47 pm

One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_12345 View Post
S4 vs 335i xDrive ... tough choice.
My friend is a mechanic and worked for Audi and now BMW. He says both cars are about the same in performance and day-to-day handling/ride/performance, etc.
From his point of view, what separates S4 vs 335 is that BMW is much easier to maintain than Audi. Access to certain areas in the engine bay and electronics are easier on the BMW vs Audi. However, he says you can't go wrong with either one...
mark_12345 commented:
July 23, 2013, 12:02 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.
I have a Porsche '08 C4S, '09 Turbo, '11 R8 V10 and '10 E92 Vert (I know, I have a sickness ). My wife drives a '11 328XiT.

The most trouble free cars have been the BMWs, followed by the Porsches [knock on wood] then Audi. My R8 had a water pump replacement after 1,500 miles, followed by a passenger door handle rattle - all fixed by under Audi warranty. The mechanic said it was a b* to replace the water pump. The E92 has been incredibly reliable. The 328XiT is great for long distance trips - recently added a hitch for hauling bikes, etc.

I've test driven various flavors of F30 and I like what BMW has done. Yeah could they have done better - always. With that said, I believe the F30 is the best on the market for performance, maintenance, quality and customer service.

Probably next year I'll get a 335xDrive w/M-package as daily driver...
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 12:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.
It is obvious you do not like the F30 or the direction that BMW is going, but you are really stretching now to make your point. Recycled materials doesn't necessarily mean cheaper or lower quality. I'd be willing to bet that every car out there has some recycled metal in them including upscale cars. It is the way of the world nowadays. For example: if you go buy new calipers for your car it is not brand new metal from ore from the ground. It's either rebuilt or recycled from something which is why you get a core charge for most car parts.

Most Porches are mid-engine cars and generally harder to work on because of access to the motor and are quite cramped. I'd be very surprised if a lot of mechanics shared your mechanics opinion.

Besides Porches SUV's and the Panamerica your saying a dedicated sports car is more fun to drive than a 3 series (besides M cars). No sh**! I'm sure nobody here thought that.
beden1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 12:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Says who?

The new IS 350 F-sport just recently beat BMW F30 335i M-sport based on better driving dynamics in a recent 5 car comparison. So when is the last time a 3 series in BMW history has ever lost to a Lexus IS.

I think it is getting a bit sad for BMW enthusiast to know how their brand is being diluted day by day in name of good business.

A good business mantra......I say my behind.

A good business sense would be to realize what brought them to be such a coveted brand to begin with. It was not by making cars that appealed to masses. To be honest BMW was never for those guys that wanted curb appeal or soft core floaty luxury rides or dash strokers. It was also not for wife's and old folks that complained about steering wheel being on the heavy side because it was hard for them to deal with mall parking lot maneuvers.

Because you know what you could buy a lot of other cars that had greater looks and curb appeal. There were also cars out there that were more ideal for dash strokers not to mention car that were far more luxurious feeling with soft floaty rides to satisfy those with back issues from old age or injuries.

The reason BMW became popular was because it was made for those that wanted a driving dynamics of Porsche like sports cars with seating for 4-5 and greater practicality. Folks that wanted to drive a car that was as close to a sports car without sacrificing the practicality of carrying a family. A car that would put a smile on your face during daily driving and not only good for tracking. A car that felt connected to driver with excellent driving dynamics.

Enthusiast, are the one that build this brand. Because everyone wanted to find out what was so good about BMW's that these enthusiast would swear by it. It started to gain ground over cars like MB and Audi. The BMW brand established it self with slogans of driving dynamics first. If you wanted the best in sports luxury BMW was the name to reckon with.

It got down to a point that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a BMW. They do not fully understand why but it is because it is the best in its class. However, after owning one they will gripe oh the steering is too heavy my wrist hurts, the dash is not as nice as Audi, the luxury/curb appeal is not as good as MB. The ride is not as soft as Lexus and neither are the gizmos.

So here comes BMW upper management lusting after these new found customers who did not enjoy BMW core values as they they never understood them. They just bought BMW's as some sort of status symbol of owning the best in its class.

In order to attract more of these so called greater sales and new found customers BMW changed its slogan to Efficient dynamics. Now BMW have become more about efficiency and soft core luxury and tech gizmos then driving dynamics.

Thus, the most soft core 3 series in BMW's history called F30 is here. Ditto with F10 and others.

Anyways my 2 cents.....End rant.
This is a good post that I agree with.
jjrandorin commented:
July 23, 2013, 2:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One does not have to settle for a Corvette or Porsche if you want ultimate driving machine in a form of a compact to midsize sedan in the luxury sport range. Because neither one of them offer one. If they did BMW would not be the name to reckon with in luxury sport class.

The BMW was the name in ultimate driving machine when it came down to the compact-midsize luxury sports sedan category and dominated it for a long time. It is now down to a more diluted version of what it once was. It is still good but not excellent at the expense of appealing to masses.
So, stop posting about it , and simply don't buy it. It's obvious you don't like it. That's fine of course. It's your money. Go buy the car that is better for you. You seem to like the lexus. Go get it. Don't give me brand loyalty, BMW used to do this or that. If they don't make a product you like, just move on.




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Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:32 pm

Yes, it might be obvious that I dislike F30 as a replacement for E9x. In my opinion it could have been better. This does not mean F30 is ****. It is still a decent car. So you do not know what I fully think about F30.

Second, I am not stretching anything Mr. Volunteer COP.... guilty judgment before you even turn the sirens off.

Now, let me say it in simple words so that I do not warrant your attack. I relayed what he told me and maybe you forgot to read the part where I said

"Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment."


So relax with your judgmental self. Just cause you bought a F30 does not mean you have to attack anyone who does not like it to the extent you like it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
It is obvious you do not like the F30 or the direction that BMW is going, but you are really stretching now to make your point. Recycled materials doesn't necessarily mean cheaper or lower quality. I'd be willing to bet that every car out there has some recycled metal in them including upscale cars. It is the way of the world nowadays. For example: if you go buy new calipers for your car it is not brand new metal from ore from the ground. It's either rebuilt or recycled from something which is why you get a core charge for most car parts.

Most Porches are mid-engine cars and generally harder to work on because of access to the motor and are quite cramped. I'd be very surprised if a lot of mechanics shared your mechanics opinion.

Besides Porches SUV's and the Panamerica your saying a dedicated sports car is more fun to drive than a 3 series (besides M cars). No sh**! I'm sure nobody here thought that.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:43 pm

Relax, you do not own the forum and nor does it come to you in inheritance from your grand pappy. So who are you to tell me to stop post my opinions.

LOL, your maturity is evident in your personal attacks. Why don't you take your own advice and stop posting since you have nothing positive to contribute to the discussion at hand except for showing your behind.

Now run along if you do not like my opinion in a discussion you do not have to read it or reply to it, just move on.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
So, stop posting about it , and simply don't buy it. It's obvious you don't like it. That's fine of course. It's your money. Go buy the car that is better for you. You seem to like the lexus. Go get it. Don't give me brand loyalty, BMW used to do this or that. If they don't make a product you like, just move on.




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Kayani_1 commented:
July 23, 2013, 7:51 pm

Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
This is a good post that I agree with.
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 8:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Yes, it might be obvious that I dislike F30 as a replacement for E9x. In my opinion it could have been better. This does not mean F30 is ****. It is still a decent car. So you do not know what I fully think about F30.

Second, I am not stretching anything Mr. Volunteer COP.... guilty judgment before you even turn the sirens off.

Since you started with generalizing base less things about me as if you can read mind. You are not god nor know all my thoughts. I guess I could be justified to say that you cops are all the same with jumping to conclusions as if you are god almighty and the tone of your post is pathetic and disrespectful. As if you guys are better then everyone else.

Now, let me say it in simple words so that I do not warrant your attack. I relayed what he told me and maybe you forgot to read the part where I said

"Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment."


So relax with your judgmental self.
Some of you guys confuse the hell out of me. For how many posts in how many threads have you and others run down the F30 and the new direction BMW is going. Than you turn around and say, well, it's not that bad, I still might get one?

How would I and others ever have gotten the idea that you didn't like BMW's anymore? You seem pretty up front with your strong opinions so it didn't seem like it would take a judge mental mind reader to figure out what you were thinking. Some of us just suggested that it is your right and your money to move on to another car and brand as you have stated post after post of the same negativeness towards BMW and the F30 specifically. All I and others are saying is we get it, you don't like it and BMW is not going to change. It is what it is. You either like them or you don't so move on with your life and buy a different brand car.

I apologize if this seems like a personal attack and it hurt your feelings. It was not meant that way.

The generalized comment that Porsches are more fun to drive than BMW's and in your context the 3 series seemed like a no duh moment. Don't worry I have them to and I fully expect you to pounce on me when I do it.
EstorilF30 commented:
July 23, 2013, 8:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Some of you guys confuse the hell out of me. For how many posts in how many threads have you and others run down the F30 and the new direction BMW is going. Than you turn around and say, well, it's not that bad, I still might get one?

How would I and others ever have gotten the idea that you didn't like BMW's anymore? You seem pretty up front with your strong opinions so it didn't seem like it would take a judge mental mind reader to figure out what you were thinking. Some of us just suggested that it is your right and your money to move on to another car and brand as you have stated post after post of the same negativeness towards BMW and the F30 specifically. All I and others are saying is we get it, you don't like it and BMW is not going to change. It is what it is. You either like them or you don't so move on with your life and buy a different brand car.

I apologize if this seems like a personal attack and it hurt your feelings. It was not meant that way.

The generalized comment that Porsches are more fun to drive than BMW's and in your context the 3 series seemed like a no duh moment. Don't worry I have them to and I fully expect you to pounce on me when I do it.
People hate change.
enigma commented:
July 23, 2013, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Some of you guys confuse the hell out of me. For how many posts in how many threads have you and others run down the F30 and the new direction BMW is going. Than you turn around and say, well, it's not that bad, I still might get one?
Because they are not mutually exclusive? Just because you don't like BMW's direction doesn't mean that you hate everything about it or that you don't hate the other brands more.

It's a little silly to having to defend your purchase decision so fiercely when someone brings up something even remotely negative about it. We all like the brand (regardless of how much some want to complain about it); otherwise, we wouldn't be wasting our valuable time here. Why can't we just respect each other's opinions and agree to disagree instead of resorting to childish comments like "leave the forum if you don't like my car" or "it's just a group of envious folks who can't afford the new model."
jjrandorin commented:
July 23, 2013, 9:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Relax, you do not own the forum and nor does it come to you in inheritance from your grand pappy. So who are you to tell me to stop post my opinions.

LOL, your maturity is evident in your personal attacks. Why don't you take your own advice and stop posting since you have nothing positive to contribute to the discussion at hand except for showing your behind.

Now run along if you do not like my opinion in a discussion you do not have to read it or reply to it, just move on.
wow, lol.. looks like I struck a nerve. I am suggesting you vote with your wallet, and buy a car you like. You are posting your opinions repeatedly how bmw failed. Thats great, its your opinion, you are entitled to it.

Not sure how me recommending that you move on from a car you really, really do not like is considered a personal attack, or how I somehow am trying to "own the forum". I just really get tired of people repeatedly posting how much they hate this or hate that, when they should be voting with their money. THAT will bring change. Posting here about how much you feel the interior is crap compared to your e90 will NOT bring change.

If you want to feel that posing that you should buy what makes you happy is a personal, attack, then I am not sure what to tell you. YOUR post is a personal attack. My post was a recommendation that you purchase something that makes you happy.
minn19 commented:
July 23, 2013, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Because they are not mutually exclusive? Just because you don't like BMW's direction doesn't mean that you hate everything about it or that you don't hate the other brands more.

It's a little silly to having to defend your purchase decision so fiercely when someone brings up something even remotely negative about it. We all like the brand (regardless of how much some want to complain about it); otherwise, we wouldn't be wasting our valuable time here. Why can't we just respect each other's opinions and agree to disagree instead of resorting to childish comments like "leave the forum if you don't like my car" or "it's just a group of envious folks who can't afford the new model."
I think they definitely go hand in hand. Seems like if a company doesn't produce what you like anymore or have a gone in a direction that you don't like it seems pretty silly to continue to purchase their products doesn't it?

I used to be a Nissan guy and have found a better car. Nissan/Infinity build great cars and I've had around 8 of them from 300zx, Altima, Maxima and a G35x. I like the BMW better so I bought the F30 after a brief mistake with a 2012 Toyota Camry SE V6 of which I can tell you does not even compare with the F30 328ix. I'm not defending my purchase as I am not blind to some of the things I don't like about the F30, but I am willing to invest and change the things I don't like. Such as buying new wheels with PSS non run flats, JB4 tuner, Mperformance exhaust and hopefully soon coilovers, if any body ever comes out with them for the xDrive. Then last Mperformance brakes or used 335 ones. For me that will be just about a perfect car for what I want.

Then in 4-5 years when BMW comes out with a new 3 series and if I don't like it I will move on to something I do like if they don't fit my needs. I won't spend endless amount of time talking about a car I don't like. Yes, it's a free country and free forum so post away. But don't be surprised when you get pushback from people on the forum that do like their cars. Especially when people start making ridiculous arguments about recycled materials and such.

Edit: I never told anyone to leave the forum, just don't understand what some people hope to accomplish by endless posts about things they or we can't change.
jjrandorin commented:
July 23, 2013, 10:05 pm

I never said to "leave the forum"... I said to "move on" which may have been taken that way, but was ment as "move on from this car, to one you like". I do not need to defend my purchase. I like my car, its why I bought it. Its fine if someone else does not like it. As I keep saying, that is their right.

Someone made a restaurant reference, so I am going to use that as an analogy:

You have a favorite restaurant. You have been going there for years, and love their food. Its a happening spot. You go there at least once a month for 6 years. You get to know the chef, and are willing to put up with the occasional undercooked dish because you really love the place, the chef, and feel connected to them. In year 7 they get a new chef. You go there, and the dishes are just not the same. It feels like they are using slightly worse quality meat. The servers are not quite as good. You no longer have a connection to them as YOUR chef is gone. There are also a couple of other restaurants that upped their game that are in the same neighborhood.

New people LOVE the restaurant, but YOU know how good it was, and how good it now isnt. You try to tell the newbies how much better it was, but they are not listening. They gravitate toward trendy stuff and this is the hot spot right now.

Do you continue to go to "your" restaurant, while telling everyone how much better it used to be, or do you just "move on" and go try out the new restaurant? You may be sad "your" restaurant is not for you anymore, but they no longer make what you like... so why continue to go there? The new restaurant is getting good reviews... maybe its time to try them out, instead of standing outside the old place with signs talking about how horrible it is now.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 24, 2013, 7:28 pm

+1

I guess it is a trend with not all but only few F30 posters. They want to defend their purchase decision so fiercely that they can't take part in a civil discussion about cars. Instead they have to attack you at in a childish fashion asking you to leave or not post your opinion. All because their feelings got hurt because F30 is above flaws and how dare you dislike few things about their purchase decision.

How about some of you relax and learn to agree to disagree and maybe engage in positive discussion. I believe this a car forum where one can talk cars without yelling at other to leave and go buy some thing else. If you want to discuss automotive matters then participate and reply to peoples post. Otherwise find an exit for yourself as that is the advice you throw upon others who are here to discuss F30 which is a car being discussed on car forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Because they are not mutually exclusive? Just because you don't like BMW's direction doesn't mean that you hate everything about it or that you don't hate the other brands more.

It's a little silly to having to defend your purchase decision so fiercely when someone brings up something even remotely negative about it. We all like the brand (regardless of how much some want to complain about it); otherwise, we wouldn't be wasting our valuable time here. Why can't we just respect each other's opinions and agree to disagree instead of resorting to childish comments like "leave the forum if you don't like my car" or "it's just a group of envious folks who can't afford the new model."
Kayani_1 commented:
July 24, 2013, 8:21 pm

Wow, lol at your lack of understanding simple concept. Oh how memory works so selectively

May be you should reread your post that was unwarranted in its aggressive and immature nature.

Here is your prior post in quotes.

"So, stop posting about it , and simply don't buy it. It's obvious you don't like it. That's fine of course. It's your money. Go buy the car that is better for you. You seem to like the lexus. Go get it. Don't give me brand loyalty, BMW used to do this or that. If they don't make a product you like, just move on.



It seems like you are the one who got your feeling hurt not me. You are the one who is telling me to stop posting on a car forum where discussion about cars takes place. All because you are upset and want to defend your purchase decision so fiercely.

Listen carefully, this is a car forum here we discuss cars of all types. In this thread we are discussing F30. If you can't handle the discussion and feel the urge to yell out at people that are participating in discussion at hand such things as you did.......

"Stop posting about my purchase, Why don't you simply not buy it. It is obvious you don't like it. Go buy a car that is better for you, you seem to like Lexus, Go get it, Don't give me brand loyalty, just move on"

......then you are the one who should take your own advice and exit. Because it is quiet childish and immature to defend your purchase decision with such blind rage at the expense of being rude and not making a single positive contribution to the automotive discussion at hand.

Now, I don't recall me nor anyone else asked you for a lesson on economics or how to fund our opinions with our wallets. Also, neither did I or anyone else ask for your permission to post any further of our thoughts on F30 forum. But yet you pretended as if we asked for your permission. Thus, in my reply..... me kindly telling you that your grand pappy does not own this forum and that we have the right to participate in a discussion on merits of F30 without you telling us to move on and stop posting about it..

I also did not ask for your input on my next car purchase nor created a thread open for that discussion. Yet, you felt the un-controlling urge to do so anyways. All the while using your condescending tone to tell me to move on, and stop posting. When I think it is quiet clear that you are the one who should take your own advice and Thus, my reply suggested that.

I think it quiet evident by non stop attacking negative tone of your post above quoted by me that you are the one that is foaming at mouth. All because you got your feeling hurt in a simple discussion about F30. Why cause I and few other find F30 to be the softest 3 series ever made and lacking in driving dynamics. You have purchased it and now find obligated to attack fiercely anyone who does not see eye to eye with you.

Bottom, line is you need to relax and take a deep breath. It is only a car forum where merely cars are discussed at length and their virtues and shortcomings. You do not have to yell at people to move on or tell them forcefully what they should buy. Now if you want to participate in an intelligent discussion about virtues of F30 then please enlighten us. Otherwise you are making a mockery of yourself and others by side tracking the discussion at hand with nonsense immature attacks.

Oh, and last but not least I am sure me or the others who do not find F30 to be as good as previous 3 series had no intention of attacking your personal purchase decision. Because we know nothing of the factors that went into your decision and neither did you ever solicit our opinion on that matter. Thus, it was not a personal attack against your purchase of F30 by anyone of us as we have no right to do so.

So, either participate in this discussion in a logical way or stop attacking others who are here to merely discuss the merits of F30 and not your purchase decision. As that is not our agenda and neither should be yours. Even at the end if we don't see eye to eye we can agree to disagree.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
wow, lol.. looks like I struck a nerve. I am suggesting you vote with your wallet, and buy a car you like. You are posting your opinions repeatedly how bmw failed. Thats great, its your opinion, you are entitled to it.

Not sure how me recommending that you move on from a car you really, really do not like is considered a personal attack, or how I somehow am trying to "own the forum". I just really get tired of people repeatedly posting how much they hate this or hate that, when they should be voting with their money. THAT will bring change. Posting here about how much you feel the interior is crap compared to your e90 will NOT bring change.

If you want to feel that posing that you should buy what makes you happy is a personal, attack, then I am not sure what to tell you. YOUR post is a personal attack. My post was a recommendation that you purchase something that makes you happy.
minn19 commented:
July 25, 2013, 9:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Says who?

The new IS 350 F-sport just recently beat BMW F30 335i M-sport based on better driving dynamics in a recent 5 car comparison. So when is the last time a 3 series in BMW history has ever lost to a Lexus IS.

I think it is getting a bit sad for BMW enthusiast to know how their brand is being diluted day by day in name of good business.

A good business mantra......I say my behind.

A good business sense would be to realize what brought them to be such a coveted brand to begin with. It was not by making cars that appealed to masses. To be honest BMW was never for those guys that wanted curb appeal or soft core floaty luxury rides or dash strokers. It was also not for wife's and old folks that complained about steering wheel being on the heavy side because it was hard for them to deal with mall parking lot maneuvers.

Because you know what you could buy a lot of other cars that had greater looks and curb appeal. There were also cars out there that were more ideal for dash strokers not to mention car that were far more luxurious feeling with soft floaty rides to satisfy those with back issues from old age or injuries.

The reason BMW became popular was because it was made for those that wanted a driving dynamics of Porsche like sports cars with seating for 4-5 and greater practicality. Folks that wanted to drive a car that was as close to a sports car without sacrificing the practicality of carrying a family. A car that would put a smile on your face during daily driving and not only good for tracking. A car that felt connected to driver with excellent driving dynamics.

Enthusiast, are the one that build this brand. Because everyone wanted to find out what was so good about BMW's that these enthusiast would swear by it. It started to gain ground over cars like MB and Audi. The BMW brand established it self with slogans of driving dynamics first. If you wanted the best in sports luxury BMW was the name to reckon with.

It got down to a point that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a BMW. They do not fully understand why but it is because it is the best in its class. However, after owning one they will gripe oh the steering is too heavy my wrist hurts, the dash is not as nice as Audi, the luxury/curb appeal is not as good as MB. The ride is not as soft as Lexus and neither are the gizmos.

So here comes BMW upper management lusting after these new found customers who did not enjoy BMW core values as they they never understood them. They just bought BMW's as some sort of status symbol of owning the best in its class.

In order to attract more of these so called greater sales and new found customers BMW changed its slogan to Efficient dynamics. Now BMW have become more about efficiency and soft core luxury and tech gizmos then driving dynamics.

Thus, the most soft core 3 series in BMW's history called F30 is here. Ditto with F10 and others.

Anyways my 2 cents.....End rant.
In this post, are you or are not calling people that buy new BMW's and specifically the F30 a bunch of dash strokers who only care about curb appeal etc..? If so, please answer this question. If you are saying this and BMW has strayed so far from what kind of car appeals to you, why would buy another BMW product?

I am not writing this to defend my purchase decision. If you read my post you could see that I do not think the F30 is a perfect car. I think it is very good as is, but not perfect. Again, I am absolutely baffled as to why you would consider buying another BMW if you truly feel this way. Especially since there are so many good cars in this segment.

Last, I am really not trying to be a smart ass with this next statement. If you think I and jjrandorin's posts to you are just nasty personal attacks, you really need to grow thicker skin.
jjrandorin commented:
July 25, 2013, 10:28 am

@ kayani

Pretty funny that you are adding words to my posts to attempt to make some sort of point. Your 1st quote of me is accurate. Your second quote has a pretty important added line which I did not say:

"Stop posting about my purchase".

I neither posted that or implied it. You seem to think that because someone is tired of seeing the same people recite the same complaints over and over and over and over, that somehow means they do not like discussion or feel defensive.

It's a car forum, for discussion, and for owners and prospective owners to get information. I have learned a lot here in a short time and appreciate people who provide opinions both positive and negative. I dont get people who seem to enjoy bashing a product they are going to buy. I simply dont understand that. Discuss, yes... bash, no. I also dont get people who repeatedly bash a product they are NOT going to buy. If, after I gather all of the information necessary to me to make a purchase, I determine the item in question is not worth my money, I don't continuously tell others how bad it is. I just buy the product thats right for me.

I realize that might be different for others, but I just dont get it. That does not seem like discussion.... however I absolutely stay away from any political discussions on the internet as they usually cause exactly this kind of unresolvable back and forth... and sometimes people just post to agitate, rather than get information, or share in discussion. I am trying to find someplace where I personally attacked you, and I dont see one. Obviously you do, since you keep personally attacking me.

Its all good though, my mistake is caring that someone is attacking me for a reason I dont understand, so you are certainly right in that respect. I also agree with you that we should probably "agree to disagree". because I think our ideas of "discussion" are different, and thats fine too.
Kayani_1 commented:
July 27, 2013, 1:12 pm

LOL......r u serious.

You said "Stop posting about it"

What is it in that statement.............maybe your selective memory is not working. The "it" is F30 right

Now did you purchase F30 or steal it. I am hoping you purchased it. Thus, your implied statement stop posting about my purchase.

Hope that clears it for you. Now good day. As my intention was not to attack your purchase but rather discuss F30 objectively. But it seems like you are offended.







Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
@ kayani

Pretty funny that you are adding words to my posts to attempt to make some sort of point. Your 1st quote of me is accurate. Your second quote has a pretty important added line which I did not say:

"Stop posting about my purchase".

I neither posted that or implied it. You seem to think that because someone is tired of seeing the same people recite the same complaints over and over and over and over, that somehow means they do not like discussion or feel defensive.

It's a car forum, for discussion, and for owners and prospective owners to get information. I have learned a lot here in a short time and appreciate people who provide opinions both positive and negative. I dont get people who seem to enjoy bashing a product they are going to buy. I simply dont understand that. Discuss, yes... bash, no. I also dont get people who repeatedly bash a product they are NOT going to buy. If, after I gather all of the information necessary to me to make a purchase, I determine the item in question is not worth my money, I don't continuously tell others how bad it is. I just buy the product thats right for me.

I realize that might be different for others, but I just dont get it. That does not seem like discussion.... however I absolutely stay away from any political discussions on the internet as they usually cause exactly this kind of unresolvable back and forth... and sometimes people just post to agitate, rather than get information, or share in discussion. I am trying to find someplace where I personally attacked you, and I dont see one. Obviously you do, since you keep personally attacking me.

Its all good though, my mistake is caring that someone is attacking me for a reason I dont understand, so you are certainly right in that respect. I also agree with you that we should probably "agree to disagree". because I think our ideas of "discussion" are different, and thats fine too.