Parts in my BMW came from China, Turkey, UK, etc.

by Bimmerfest.com Member - Dave 20T on July 28, 2013, 1:26 am
My F30 was assembled in Munich (VIN 11th digit is F, South African cars have N as the 11th digit). So far, I have seen parts made in:

Romania: Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
Austria: headlights
UK: Pilkington front windshield
People's Republic of China: all the side glass made by Fuyao in Changchun Jilin
owners manual case
Turkey: rear windshield, Sisecam glass line made by Can Isleme Sanayli

What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit

I see variable quality parts, some strong looking and some poor quality. Too bad.


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166 responses to Parts in my BMW came from China, Turkey, UK, etc.

Michael Schott commented:
July 28, 2013, 8:36 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
My F30 was assembled in Munich (VIN 11th digit is F, South African cars have N as the 11th digit). So far, I have seen parts made in:

Romania: Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
Austria: headlights
UK: Pilkington front windshield
People's Republic of China: all the side glass made by Fuyao in Changchun Jilin
owners manual case
Turkey: rear windshield, Sisecam glass line made by Can Isleme Sanayli

What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit

I see variable quality parts, some strong looking and some poor quality. Too bad.
Is this a problem? Did you expect all the parts to be made in Germany? If so, would you be willing to pay a premium for an all German car? As far as quality, as long as they are made to BMW's specifications, no big deal.
Dave 20T commented:
July 28, 2013, 10:04 am

The window sticker says 60% of the parts are German, 5% from the US or Canada. I am not alarmed by this. I was expecting the remaining parts to be European, such as Austria, UK, Belgium as well as Eastern European, such as Slovakia and Poland. I was not expecting Turkey and China. I wouldn't mind seeing more US parts in the car, which I find to often be of good quality or at least fairly good.

It's possible there is even a part made in India because I read an article about Indian made 3 series being made from prepackaged kits with the exception of some locally made interior door panels. Some parts might be South African if a part has a single source. A few technical parts might be Japanese. After the nuclear disaster/earthquake/tsunami, there was a worldwide shortage of a paint pigment made by Merck in Japan, as well as some mass air sensor parts made by Hitachi for some European assembled cars.
Elk commented:
July 28, 2013, 10:36 am

All cars and, for that matter, almost all consumer products are made from internationally sourced parts.
beden1 commented:
July 28, 2013, 10:40 am

All electronics, no doubt, made in China and Japan.
LarryboysUDM commented:
July 28, 2013, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
My F30 was assembled in Munich (VIN 11th digit is F, South African cars have N as the 11th digit). So far, I have seen parts made in:

Romania: Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
Austria: headlights
UK: Pilkington front windshield
People's Republic of China: all the side glass made by Fuyao in Changchun Jilin
owners manual case
Turkey: rear windshield, Sisecam glass line made by Can Isleme Sanayli

What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit

I see variable quality parts, some strong looking and some poor quality. Too bad.
I have a Munich 335i (F is #11 in the VIN)
Poland--tires
Same as above for front, rear and side glass; sunroof is also Pilkington.
I would have lost if somebody made a bet with me that my side windows were made in China. What this means is that BMW made more profit by outsourcing parts from other countries which most of the time is cheaper than those obtained from the local economy. Had I known where the glasses were made, I would have asked the dealer to knock off several hundred off the price.
krash commented:
July 28, 2013, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
All electronics, no doubt, made in China and Japan.
Hardware is mostly Asian, and not just Chinese and Japanese.

Software definitely not. The code is written and programmed in US or Europe.
gomichaelkgo commented:
July 28, 2013, 1:16 pm

I work for a high tech test and measurement company. My Chinese colleague's wife works for Bosch in Shanghai. She writes software for cruise control systems in German cars. I saw pictures of her standing in front of BMW Welt from her business trip. Hmm....
eazy commented:
July 28, 2013, 1:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
My F30 was assembled in Munich (VIN 11th digit is F, South African cars have N as the 11th digit). So far, I have seen parts made in:

Romania: Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
Austria: headlights
UK: Pilkington front windshield
People's Republic of China: all the side glass made by Fuyao in Changchun Jilin
owners manual case
Turkey: rear windshield, Sisecam glass line made by Can Isleme Sanayli

What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit

I see variable quality parts, some strong looking and some poor quality. Too bad.
I have the same suppliers as you except for the tires which are Bridgestone S001's which I believe are made in Japan


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irianjim commented:
July 28, 2013, 1:54 pm

To be honest, I think I would be a bit bothered if my E92 had come with glass made in China and I could read that in the glass. It is supposed to be a European car. I know that things are sourced from everywhere, but to have that so obvious would be a bit of a bother to me. I don't mind buying things from China when I know what I am getting but I don't want to pay European or American prices for Chinese products. When I furnished my house I wouldn't buy the name brand American furniture as they had outsourced construction to China but kept the prices formerly charged for the products built by craftsmen in North Carolina. They may be able to sell it - just not to me. Similarly, I won't pay the premium prices for European cars in the future if they outsource a significant part of the car to China or other parts of Asia. If I want an Asian car, I'll buy a Toyota.
tankton commented:
July 28, 2013, 2:46 pm

We are mostly just buying mentalities and design ethics, now. Suppliers are worldwide - companies such as BMW, and even highly integrated ones like Toyota, may have little choice as to where their part ultimately comes from.

So we buy into the brand. BMW is uncompromising, in many regards (packaging). Mercedes, excepting the S-class, is pinching every penny they can find. Audi is straddling the border between BMW and Mercedes (in my view). Lexus is being dragged down by Toyota's woes and limited R&D (incredulous for a company that wishes to be the largest automaker in the world).

The parts, excepting the stamping, engine, and transmission, will generally come from a vast network of suppliers that are always under pressure to lower cost.
zeezz commented:
July 28, 2013, 3:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
To be honest, I think I would be a bit bothered if my E92 had come with glass made in China and I could read that in the glass. It is supposed to be a European car. I know that things are sourced from everywhere, but to have that so obvious would be a bit of a bother to me. I don't mind buying things from China when I know what I am getting but I don't want to pay European or American prices for Chinese products. When I furnished my house I wouldn't buy the name brand American furniture as they had outsourced construction to China but kept the prices formerly charged for the products built by craftsmen in North Carolina. They may be able to sell it - just not to me. Similarly, I won't pay the premium prices for European cars in the future if they outsource a significant part of the car to China or other parts of Asia. If I want an Asian car, I'll buy a Toyota.
Very outdated view. Most Toyotas today are 75+ North American sourced and built in the USA.
irianjim commented:
July 28, 2013, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeezz View Post
Very outdated view. Most Toyotas today are 75+ North American sourced and built in the USA.
Not true. Most Toyotas sold in North America have a high North American content, but not most Toyotas. Many are also built in Canada, not US, for the US market. Besides, several Toyota models are still imported from Japan. However, that wasn't the point.

My point is that I am not willing to pay premium prices for goods that do not merit the premium pricing. If that is an "outdated view" than so be it. The market will ultimately determine if that is correct or not.
Dave 20T commented:
July 28, 2013, 4:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tankton View Post
So we buy into the brand. BMW is uncompromising, in many regards (packaging)..
I do not see this as true.

As far as cheap, the floor mats are the cheapest and thinnest carpet that I've ever seen on any car. The 320i lacks seat back pockets. The trunk lining feels a little thin, but not too bad. The side glass is from the People's Republic of China. The brakes are not that big, not nearly as big as the wheels could take.

I fully understand the pressure that they have. BMW is not a large car company (but not tiny, either). Labor costs in Germany is high. R and D can only be spread among its moderate sales numbers. Much of their production is in high cost Germany with the exception of a plant in the U.S. (They do have plants in China, Russia, India, Malaysia, Egypt, etc. but those are for local markets and to escape high import duties. They also have a plant in East Germany). They do their best to sell a 320i, which can invoice for $30,000, and try to sell 3 series versions that can hit $50,000 MSRP with not much added cost. (How much more is the cost of sports suspension? Not much more).

For now, Red Chinese side glass probably will do (will have to do, I already own the car). Luckily, the front windshield is still British, though I'd prefer a Saint Gobain Sekurit front windshield made in France, Germany, Sweden, or Poland. It's not Asian that I'm concerned about. I once had a spare tire made by a Pirelli contractor in Taiwan, which is the Republic of China (not People's Republic of China). That's fine with me.
beden1 commented:
July 28, 2013, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
I do not see this as true.

As far as cheap, the floor mats are the cheapest and thinnest carpet that I've ever seen on any car. The 320i lacks seat back pockets. The trunk lining feels a little thin, but not too bad. The side glass is from the People's Republic of China. The brakes are not that big, not nearly as big as the wheels could take.

I fully understand the pressure that they have. BMW is not a large car company (but not tiny, either). Labor costs in Germany is high. R and D can only be spread among its moderate sales numbers. Much of their production is in high cost Germany with the exception of a plant in the U.S. (They do have plants in China, Russia, India, Malaysia, Egypt, etc. but those are for local markets and to escape high import duties. They also have a plant in East Germany). They do their best to sell a 320i, which can invoice for $30,000, and try to sell 3 series versions that can hit $50,000 MSRP with not much added cost. (How much more is the cost of sports suspension? Not much more).

For now, Red Chinese side glass probably will do (will have to do, I already own the car). Luckily, the front windshield is still British, though I'd prefer a Saint Gobain Sekurit front windshield made in France, Germany, Sweden, or Poland.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but BMW also has a major plant in S. Africa where your 320i was probably assembled.
Dave 20T commented:
July 28, 2013, 4:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but BMW also has a major plant in S. Africa where your 320i was probably assembled.
Typo, you're right. BMW does have a big plant in South Africa. My car is a Munich produced car, however.

The point is that I don't like parts in a BMW from China nor do I like parts that look like they are of questionable quality. I didn't see any Russian parts but I wouldn't like that either.
mr_clueless commented:
July 28, 2013, 5:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
Not true. Most Toyotas sold in North America have a high North American content, but not most Toyotas. Many are also built in Canada, not US, for the US market. Besides, several Toyota models are still imported from Japan. However, that wasn't the point.

My point is that I am not willing to pay premium prices for goods that do not merit the premium pricing. If that is an "outdated view" than so be it. The market will ultimately determine if that is correct or not.
They are making you pay for the design, not for the build quality. There was a time when the two went hand-in-hand, but if they made you pay for German glass, etc. the car would be several thousand more. So you sacrifice some build quality, but how would they survive if they didn't do what everyone else is doing? Things may change moving forward as robot technology advances and more and more things are done by robots.
Elk commented:
July 28, 2013, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
The market will ultimately determine if that is correct or not.
It already has. Asian cars are the top sellers in the U.S. and are incredibly reliable as well.

You do not want to know where your clothes, TV, phone, computer, etc. come from. Good luck finding products without "foreign" components. Your lifestyle will be sparse without them.

You may be heartened knowing that a good number of foreign products also contain U.S. parts.
beden1 commented:
July 28, 2013, 6:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Typo, you're right. BMW does have a big plant in South Africa. My car is a Munich produced car, however.

The point is that I don't like parts in a BMW from China nor do I like parts that look like they are of questionable quality. I didn't see any Russian parts but I wouldn't like that either.
I don't like it either, but unfortunately, "Globalization" is here to stay.
Nordique commented:
July 28, 2013, 10:38 pm

I don't think BMW is doing anything that other global automobile manufacturers routinely do as well, to remain competitive. What BMW does that makes SOME of us bimmerheads is the resulting product, which for my money is far closer to Freude Am Fahren than any other car company. My third bimmer is still the best driver's car that my money can buy. The BMW driving experience is vastly more important than--say--floor mats.
HugH commented:
July 28, 2013, 11:50 pm

I posted a reply to a thread similar to this one earlier in the year. In it it stated that all brake units for all BMW 2013 cars were to be made by several Korean companies.

As long as they do their job right...so what?
mr_clueless commented:
July 29, 2013, 12:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
I posted a reply to a thread similar to this one earlier in the year. In it it stated that all brake units for all BMW 2013 cars were to be made by several Korean companies.

As long as they do their job right...so what?
Easier to control if the entire operation is controlled by BMW, but when sourcing parts from 3rd parties it is much harder to achieve quality control.
Dave 20T commented:
July 29, 2013, 1:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
I posted a reply to a thread similar to this one earlier in the year. In it it stated that all brake units for all BMW 2013 cars were to be made by several Korean companies.

As long as they do their job right...so what?
In part, this is true. I wouldn't mind if certain parts came from the US, Brazil, Thailand, and Slovakia, all countries that export quite a few cars. Only a few countries that I have doubts and wouldn't want parts from there.

As far as the comment about being a driver's car, that is mostly true. However, if parts became too prone to breaking, I would eventWwwually buy from a different car company.
AJPITT commented:
July 29, 2013, 9:15 am

I noticed the side windows were Chinese recently and was a little disappointed because I know that older models do have European made glass, however, I recently noticed that this only seems to be the case for the 3 series. I was a passenger in a 6 series on saturday and it had S. Gobain glass.
HugH commented:
July 29, 2013, 9:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Easier to control if the entire operation is controlled by BMW, but when sourcing parts from 3rd parties it is much harder to achieve quality control.
How true. But, we as consumers don't generally have control on manufacture and origin of parts of the products we purchase.

Sure, a consumer can abstain from a product made in Mexico (VW Bug) or a GM car assembles in Aguas Caliente, MEX, a Porsche assembled in Hungary, or a Mercedes assembled in USA. Last I looked, the car with most American content was a Honda built in this country. Even Kia is building cars here now.
Dr. 328xi commented:
July 29, 2013, 9:45 am

I was actually pretty surprised by the 60% German content myself. My last car was an Audi A3, which was listed as 85% German and 15% Hungarian on the sticker. So, when paying a significant premium over the Audi, I was a little surprised to find a significantly lower German content percentage. I don't really have a problem with it as I trust BMW would not risk their reputation on cheap Chinese parts without making certain they pass a rigorous inspection - just an interesting find that the German content percent is so low.
minn19 commented:
July 29, 2013, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
How true. But, we as consumers don't generally have control on manufacture and origin of parts of the products we purchase.

Sure, a consumer can abstain from a product made in Mexico (VW Bug) or a GM car assembles in Aguas Caliente, MEX, a Porsche assembled in Hungary, or a Mercedes assembled in USA. Last I looked, the car with most American content was a Honda built in this country. Even Kia is building cars here now.
I found this on http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....op&subject=ami. Apparently if you want an "American" made car buy a Toyota since four out of the top ten are on this list.
minn19 commented:
July 29, 2013, 11:26 am

Did some of you that are investigating this have quality issues before you found out all of this? What I mean is, did the glass made from China bother you before or after you found out where it was made? I guess if I don't have quality issues I to will trust BMW to make sure it is all up to their standards.
Mark K commented:
July 29, 2013, 12:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeezz View Post
Very outdated view. Most Toyotas today are 75+ North American sourced and built in the USA.
This is true and it is not The Problem. What I have issue with is that they keep premium prices. Yes, yes, I know they will say that product X would cost 30% more if they didn't do this, but I call BS. In this example, most of the parts listed here were German made on my car (in signature picture). It didn't cost 30% more. No, that wasn't 30 years ago either.

I very recently made a conscious choice to buy outdated platform with outdated engine car just because it is made in Germany and the next year replacement will be made in Mexico for ... you guess it ... the same price. Or couple of hundred more - NOT less.

Finally, they are pretty dumb, if you ask me. This issue could be made into nice moneymaker - just like the Individual thing. You check the box when ordering and you get the privilege of getting 90%+ German parts content and you pay for the privilege. The rest of the huddled masses get 65% or less of German parts content. How to do this? Simple, stock the Munich factory with parts from Germany and produce all special requests there on specific days. They could make a nice chunk of money that way.
HugH commented:
July 29, 2013, 5:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy View Post
I have the same suppliers as you except for the tires which are Bridgestone S001's which I believe are made in Japan


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Never know, unless you verify the country code stamped on the sidewall.

Where are Bridgestone tires made / manufactured?
Bridgestone manufactures tires all over the world including the United States. Some of the United States factory locations include Moines, IA; Bloomington, IL; Lavergne, TN and Morrison, TN.
Nordique commented:
July 29, 2013, 6:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
Never know, unless you verify the country code stamped on the sidewall.

Where are Bridgestone tires made / manufactured?
Bridgestone manufactures tires all over the world including the United States. Some of the United States factory locations include Moines, IA; Bloomington, IL; Lavergne, TN and Morrison, TN.
For example, the sidewalls for my F30 Bridgestone Potenza S001 RFT say 'Made in Poland' which is handy for a car manufactured in Munich.
Dave 20T commented:
July 29, 2013, 9:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Did some of you that are investigating this have quality issues before you found out all of this? ...... guess if I don't have quality issues I to will trust BMW to make sure it is all up to their standards.
Yes, I found some of the parts cheap looking, which started my quest to look for who the suppliers are. This is when I found Fuyao glass, made in the People's Republic of China. It is not Asian countries that I am against, it is simply parts made in certain countries don't have my trust.

Saab had a higher content of German, Swedish, Scandinavian parts than the BMW F30. Maybe that was a lesson that parts don't matter. Saab did have Red Chinese speakers and the radio was criticized for poor sound quality.
Elk commented:
July 29, 2013, 11:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Saab did have Red Chinese speakers and the radio was criticized for poor sound quality.
I understand the Blue Chinese speakers sound much better.
LarryboysUDM commented:
July 29, 2013, 11:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Did some of you that are investigating this have quality issues before you found out all of this? What I mean is, did the glass made from China bother you before or after you found out where it was made? I guess if I don't have quality issues I to will trust BMW to make sure it is all up to their standards.
No quality issues. Yes it did bother me after I found out from this thread where the side windows were made from. If I had known about Fuyao I would have thought 2x about buying it. I even told my CA I will only buy a BMW that's made in Germany which obviously did not help. Anyway, not much I could do now...it is what it is. I'll learn from this lesson and move on.
Dave 20T commented:
July 30, 2013, 12:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
I understand the Blue Chinese speakers sound much better.
Blue? You mean Nationalist China? Nationalist China's official name is the Republic of China, also called the Republic of China on Taiwan. Since the late 1980's, the US media has complied with the People's Republic of China (Red China) demand that they be called China. The neutral method would simply be to refer to the official names, Republic of China and People's Republic of China. At Bimmerfest, we should be non-political and neutral as much as possible so I should discontinue use of the old Red and Nationalist terms but also not kowtow (ha ha) to the mainland and call it China.
vern commented:
July 30, 2013, 7:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Blue? You mean Nationalist China? Nationalist China's official name is the Republic of China, also called the Republic of China on Taiwan. Since the late 1980's, the US media has complied with the People's Republic of China (Red China) demand that they be called China. The neutral method would simply be to refer to the official names, Republic of China and People's Republic of China. At Bimmerfest, we should be non-political and neutral as much as possible so I should discontinue use of the old Red and Nationalist terms but also not kowtow (ha ha) to the mainland and call it China.
Dave you got a problem, get a life. Good luck
cheers
vern
Dave 20T commented:
July 30, 2013, 10:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Dave you got a problem, get a life. Good luck
cheers
vern
It's not my problem, it's Taiwan's problem.

Vern, get a life. Just stop beating your wife.

cheers
dave

vern commented:
July 30, 2013, 10:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
It's not my problem, it's Taiwan's problem.

Vern, get a life. Just stop beating your wife.

cheers
dave

Dave from reading your posts seems like your getting to be a professional whiner.
cheers
vern
threeOh commented:
July 30, 2013, 10:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
My point is that I am not willing to pay premium prices for goods that do not merit the premium pricing. If that is an "outdated view" than so be it. The market will ultimately determine if that is correct or not.
So what in your view merits premium pricing? Premium cost (ie. prices) or functionality? The market determined this is just fine ages ago.

We Americans suffer from an environment of junk sourced at the lowest possible cost by big box stores. Unfortunately, that's all we see and form opinions from a particularly bad example. European companies send engineers (as opposed to purchasing agents, whose bonus is determined by cost savings) to lower cost sources, spec design, spec materials, spec quality and install their own people to monitor manufacturing methods and quality. The approach is good and the results are good.
Dave 20T commented:
July 30, 2013, 11:21 am

Sometimes, we become part of a mutual admiration society, which makes having a critical eye (or whiner) useful.

I've had experience with some really poorly designed or poorly made European stuff. It seems, however, that the stuff that makes it to the U.S. is better.
irianjim commented:
July 30, 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by threeOh View Post
So what in your view merits premium pricing? Premium cost (ie. prices) or functionality? The market determined this is just fine ages ago.

We Americans suffer from an environment of junk sourced at the lowest possible cost by big box stores. Unfortunately, that's all we see and form opinions from a particularly bad example. European companies send engineers (as opposed to purchasing agents, whose bonus is determined by cost savings) to lower cost sources, spec design, spec materials, spec quality and install their own people to monitor manufacturing methods and quality. The approach is good and the results are good.
That is a good question. In my mind, premium pricing is justified when there is a marked differentiation in function and/or quality over the competition. In other cases, it is justified when a company has built a reputation of quality over competition (think Toyota - but they don't have premium prices) or an aspirational image that we have bought into. In the case of BMW's (and Mercedes) they have built a reputation of superior German quality and engineering over the past 60 years and we in North America have been willing to pay a premium for that. That is the image they have built. However, if they manufacture cars in other locations and source parts from locations with less of a reputation for quality than Germany, will people still be willing to pay a premium? Not sure. You can see various places in the forums for example that many BMW buyers want a BMW built in Germany, not South Africa.

There is nothing wrong with outsourcing to cheaper places but the quality and reputation has to follow. I see few examples (save for electronics) where companies that have outsourced the manufacture of premium products have reduced prices. They are trying to convince us the product is the same and keep the cost savings for the stockholders.

I don't think only European manufactures watch the quality and do the steps you mentioned above. US computer manufacturers and Asian television manufacturers do it also. However, those actions differentiate the good from the bad.

Everyone chooses individually how to spend their money and maybe some of my bias is age driven. I do understand globalization and am just fine with it when the result is the same quality at lower prices. However, when a company has built a reputation on an image and moves to change the basis on which that image was built, then they will have trouble justifying continuing premium prices to me.

My $.02 cents anyway.
minn19 commented:
July 30, 2013, 6:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Yes, I found some of the parts cheap looking, which started my quest to look for who the suppliers are. This is when I found Fuyao glass, made in the People's Republic of China. It is not Asian countries that I am against, it is simply parts made in certain countries don't have my trust.

Saab had a higher content of German, Swedish, Scandinavian parts than the BMW F30. Maybe that was a lesson that parts don't matter. Saab did have Red Chinese speakers and the radio was criticized for poor sound quality.
I guess after I buy a car it wouldn't even cross my mind to look for these things. There are places I don't want my money going either, but it is pretty hard nowadays to have any control over that. Like others have said, globalization is here to stay.
minn19 commented:
July 30, 2013, 6:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
That is a good question. In my mind, premium pricing is justified when there is a marked differentiation in function and/or quality over the competition. In other cases, it is justified when a company has built a reputation of quality over competition (think Toyota - but they don't have premium prices) or an aspirational image that we have bought into. In the case of BMW's (and Mercedes) they have built a reputation of superior German quality and engineering over the past 60 years and we in North America have been willing to pay a premium for that. That is the image they have built. However, if they manufacture cars in other locations and source parts from locations with less of a reputation for quality than Germany, will people still be willing to pay a premium? Not sure. You can see various places in the forums for example that many BMW buyers want a BMW built in Germany, not South Africa.

There is nothing wrong with outsourcing to cheaper places but the quality and reputation has to follow. I see few examples (save for electronics) where companies that have outsourced the manufacture of premium products have reduced prices. They are trying to convince us the product is the same and keep the cost savings for the stockholders.

I don't think only European manufactures watch the quality and do the steps you mentioned above. US computer manufacturers and Asian television manufacturers do it also. However, those actions differentiate the good from the bad.

Everyone chooses individually how to spend their money and maybe some of my bias is age driven. I do understand globalization and am just fine with it when the result is the same quality at lower prices. However, when a company has built a reputation on an image and moves to change the basis on which that image was built, then they will have trouble justifying continuing premium prices to me.

My $.02 cents anyway.
I don't know what your definition of premium prices are, but a few years go we paid 40+ for our Toyota Highlander. Wasn't a whole lot cheaper than what I got my BMW for.
HugH commented:
July 30, 2013, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I guess after I buy a car it wouldn't even cross my mind to look for these things. There are places I don't want my money going either, but it is pretty hard nowadays to have any control over that. Like others have said, globalization is here to stay.
I am with you. I could care less where the parts came from. I can make better use of my time. Know what? The last Saab I drove, most of the interior hardware came not from Scandinavia, but from Detroit (GM). Chevy parts all over the interior. That said, I loved Saab and the one I owned for 2 yrs ('71) in Iceland was prior to the sale to GM.

Now I see Audi is about to build a plant in old Mejico!
irianjim commented:
July 30, 2013, 9:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I don't know what your definition of premium prices are, but a few years go we paid 40+ for our Toyota Highlander. Wasn't a whole lot cheaper than what I got my BMW for.
They aren't cheap, are they? My RAV Limited was over $30k as well.

My definition of the premium price is the excess one charges for a BMW over another somewhat comparable automobile. It may be more justified in the 3 and 4 series. However, in an apples to apples comparison an equivalent BMW SUV to the Highlander would probably be significantly more expensive I would think. Is that premium justified? That is up to the individual buyer but if I was in the SUV market I would probably go with the Highlander.

I'd have a base Toyota Land Cruiser diesel if they sold it in this country but that is another story.
minn19 commented:
July 30, 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
They aren't cheap, are they? My RAV Limited was over $30k as well.

My definition of the premium price is the excess one charges for a BMW over another somewhat comparable automobile. It may be more justified in the 3 and 4 series. However, in an apples to apples comparison an equivalent BMW SUV to the Highlander would probably be significantly more expensive I would think. Is that premium justified? That is up to the individual buyer but if I was in the SUV market I would probably go with the Highlander.

I'd have a base Toyota Land Cruiser diesel if they sold it in this country but that is another story.
You're right. I thought about that a little bit later. I don't know BMW SUV's too well, but I'm assuming a good comparison would be an X5. Which would be considerably more than a comparably equipped Highlander.

You are also right about which SUV I'd go with. For what my family uses it for it wouldn't make sense to spend the extra 20k or so. No offense to BMW, but I also am much more confident about keeping the Highlander for 10 years 150,000 miles. Don't get me wrong though, if money was no object it would be an X5 in the driveway.
Nordique commented:
July 31, 2013, 12:08 am

A Highlander should last for many decades, since no one is going to spend a lot of time pushing that truck, chasing Freude Am Fahren, as some of us do with our bummers. I was happy to get 150,000 miles, on road and track, in my 2003 E46 325i. I would have had FAR less fun on road and track with a Highlander! I'll take an F30 any day!
Nordique commented:
July 31, 2013, 12:11 am

And when we talk about 'luxury cars,' remember that the average new car cost in the U.S. is around $32K. So 'luxury' is well north of that amount. My new $35K F30 is not exactly a luxury car but that's not what I wanted in any case.
minn19 commented:
July 31, 2013, 8:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
A Highlander should last for many decades, since no one is going to spend a lot of time pushing that truck, chasing Freude Am Fahren, as some of us do with our bummers. I was happy to get 150,000 miles, on road and track, in my 2003 E46 325i. I would have had FAR less fun on road and track with a Highlander! I'll take an F30 any day!
We do pull a boat with it somewhat often, so a different kind of a wear and tear, but I get what you mean. Plus, you should see my wife drive that thing when she is late to pick up our kiddo from something .

I am pretty sure my F30 will last that long as well, just hoping the major repair bills aren't to bad. Of course I'll take my F30 over the Highlander as well. Cool to see your E46 lasted that long. Seems you don't hear as many of those stories on the forum compared to big maintenance bills after warranty stories.
Dave 20T commented:
August 30, 2013, 12:17 am

Just saw that the battery tie down is Czech so....

Germany
Austria
UK
Romania
Turkey
China,People's Republic
Czech Rep
gkr778 commented:
August 30, 2013, 1:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit
Some additional suppliers for the F30 are shown below, courtesy of Automotive News.
Why do you wish all the glass was Saint-Gobain Seukrit? Does Fuyao Glass Industry Group Co., Ltd. lack specific capabilities by comparison?

Flakmunky commented:
August 30, 2013, 3:04 am

The car was designed in Germany. This is the premium you are paying for. The designers and engineers set quality tolerances which the parts must meet... What's the problem?
Elk commented:
August 30, 2013, 8:47 am

Wonderful graphic!
LarryboysUDM commented:
August 30, 2013, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Some additional suppliers for the F30 are shown below, courtesy of Automotive News.
Why do you wish all the glass was Saint-Gobain Seukrit? Does Fuyao Glass Industry Group Co., Ltd. lack specific capabilities by comparison?

From my car's sticker:
Major parts content:
Germany--60%
US/Canadian--5%
Around the World--35% (Implied)
Dr. 328xi commented:
August 30, 2013, 12:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
From my car's sticker:
Major parts content:
Germany--60%
US/Canadian--5%
Around the World--35% (Implied)
I'd be more concerned about the quality of the 5% of parts made by UAW workers in the US...
gkr778 commented:
August 30, 2013, 12:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I'd be more concerned about the quality of the 5% of parts made by UAW workers in the US...
How do you know that workers at U.S. based facilities that manufacture those components are represented by UAW?
Dr. 328xi commented:
August 30, 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
How do you know that workers at U.S. based facilities that manufacture those components are represented by UAW?
I do not. It was a joke.

However, I imagine the union thugs would have beaten the life out of any non-union auto parts producers, so they're probably UAW workers...

(yes, also a joke)
Dippydo commented:
August 30, 2013, 2:44 pm

You would be surprised on how many little parts come from China. I was visiting a factory a few years ago and came across Mercedes dials, knobs and plates in the showroom and they told me they make them for Mercedes. These typically do not matter in production of anything.
Dave 20T commented:
August 30, 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Did some of you that are investigating this have quality issues before you found out all of this? What I mean is, did the glass made from China bother you before or after you found out where it was made? I guess if I don't have quality issues I to will trust BMW to make sure it is all up to their standards.
The best measure of quality is to know the technical specifications and have access to data on failure rates of parts. We don't have that.

However, to say that country of origin doesn't count is a reason to buy Kia. A few days ago, I saw an ad for the Kia Credenza. It was a chart comparing it to the BMW 5 series. Let's all go and ditch our BMWs for Kias!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I'd be more concerned about the quality of the 5% of parts made by UAW workers in the US...
I do not dislike parts built with UAW labor. Quality of the parts have several components including good technical design and good workmanship. If the part is designed poorly, all the good intentions of the factory workers is not enough. If a part is designed well, it can sometimes compensate for indifferent workmanship.

I read of a filter in a tank that was designed as "GI proof". It could be put in many ways and still work!

In some cases, the morale of American workers is better than some countries. In some countries, the workers are very militant. In some cases, workers actually sabotage. In others, they don't have a second thought to falsely call in sick. My gut feeling is that I trust the workers of BMW South Carolina more than BMW East Germany (Leipzig). I know that vandalism against BMWs in East Germany is higher than West Germany possibly because the Communists are jealous at people who have a little money.
HugH commented:
August 30, 2013, 2:49 pm

<< I know that vandalism against BMWs in East Germany is higher than West Germany possibly because the Communists are jealous at people who have a little money.>>

Boy, this thread is full of jokes today!
gkr778 commented:
August 30, 2013, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
Boy, this thread is full of jokes today!
We even experienced time travel back to the Cold War era in a fictitious Kia! Fun!
minn19 commented:
August 30, 2013, 6:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
This may be why U.S. foreign policy suffers from inexperience. Some of the lessons from the past 100 years are forgotten.

On 9-11, many people were shocked. Many hadn't even heard of bin Laden. One radio announcer even said that there must be some really bad air traffic control problem! Idiot, bin Laden's signature was all over it right away.

People with roots in the Cold War are still in power. In Cuba, the Castros are very much a Cold War participant. In Germany, some prominent members of government are from the old Soviet sector and were raised there.

The Cold War is still happening. Just look at Anna Chapman, the redhead Russian spy. One of her colleagues was a sleeper cell, a couple pretending to be American and raising children, who were to become spies.

You are, however, correct. The correct name is the Kia Cadenza.
Not that I necessarily disagree with some of what you have said here, but what the hell does this have to do with the build quality of BMW's? Are you trying to say there is an insidious plot to wreck our precious capitalistic luxury cars? And this plot is being carried out by an alliance between Al Qaida/China and ex Eastern Bloc countries.

You were wishing in earlier posts that all of the glass was made somewhere else besides China. Is there something wrong with the glass from China? Is it hard to see out of? Has it been cracking or blowing out randomly? Just curious what your beef really is. Would have of ever known based on quality alone if you never checked where it was manufactured?
minn19 commented:
August 30, 2013, 6:42 pm

By the way Dave 20T. I hope you don't fly much, because you will sh** yourself next time you are on an airplane and find out where all of those parts come from.
pixma commented:
August 30, 2013, 7:18 pm

They are not dumb. They didn't do it because you are in the minority here. Market like you will not be big enough to pay off the cost of developing such a program.

Go meet with workers from different countries, and see whether they have a significant difference in terms of skill and work ethic. How many US workers are natively from US anyways? Where they are from doesn't matter, as long as quality control is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Finally, they are pretty dumb, if you ask me. This issue could be made into nice moneymaker - just like the Individual thing. You check the box when ordering and you get the privilege of getting 90%+ German parts content and you pay for the privilege. The rest of the huddled masses get 65% or less of German parts content. How to do this? Simple, stock the Munich factory with parts from Germany and produce all special requests there on specific days. They could make a nice chunk of money that way.
HugH commented:
August 30, 2013, 7:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixma View Post
They are not dumb. They didn't do it because you are in the minority here. Market like you will not be big enough to pay off the cost of developing such a program.

Go meet with workers from different countries, and see whether they have a significant difference in terms of skill and work ethic. How many US workers are natively from US anyways? Where they are from doesn't matter, as long as quality control is there.
Back on my Air Force days I seem to recall German auto workers were allowed to have their free beer during the lunch hour. Many of those workers were hard working Turks.
But we all knew that, right?
Dave 20T commented:
August 30, 2013, 7:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Is there something wrong with the glass from China? Is it hard to see out of? Has it been cracking or blowing out randomly? Just curious what your beef really is. Would have of ever known based on quality alone if you never checked where it was manufactured?
What country was the toothpaste made where people using it died from poison?
a. People's Republic of China
b. United States of America
c. Republic of China (Taiwan)
d. Singapore (approximately 75% Chinese)
e. Germany

What country did babies die from poisonous substances in baby formula, which raised the protein level?
Same multiple choices.

What was the country of origin for dog food that resulted in thousands of American dogs sick or dead?
Same multiple choices.

The answer to all these questions is answer a! If BMW cars were made in Singapore, I would have no hesitation to buy one, definitely over one made in Leipzig. Probably on the same level of Munich or even higher.

Do you drive with your windows open? Don't. The window provides support for the side curtain airbag to work properly. Bad glass is not something I want. Besides, I don't like the brand name, Fuyao, on my car. I'd rather have Saint Gobain Sekurit. I'd settle for Pilkington.
HugH commented:
August 30, 2013, 7:47 pm

***65532;From today's Spiegel Online:
DPA
Eastern Germans are still far more likely than others to strip down at the beach, a remnant of the communist country's "FKK" culture. But other aspects of East German life are becoming much more difficult to identify.
Nice photo!
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/ph...-100788-3.html
HugH commented:
August 30, 2013, 8:02 pm

I'm willing to bet that the US has more Chinese restaurants per capita than any other country in the world!

I dont know if any of you saw this in the news, a few years back. Some Chinese company was exporting "rice" to the Philippines and selling it at unprecedented low prices. Not long after it went on sale, government agencies were inundated with complaints about the rice that, although it looked good, it was neigh impossible to cook it right.

The investigative arm of the government found that the "rice" was actually made in a factory, of plastic and various other non-food substances!

See y'all at your favorite Chinese restaurants!
minn19 commented:
August 30, 2013, 9:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
What country was the toothpaste made where people using it died from poison?
a. People's Republic of China
b. United States of America
c. Republic of China (Taiwan)
d. Singapore (approximately 75% Chinese)
e. Germany

What country did babies die from poisonous substances in baby formula, which raised the protein level?
Same multiple choices.

What was the country of origin for dog food that resulted in thousands of American dogs sick or dead?
Same multiple choices.

The answer to all these questions is answer a! If BMW cars were made in Singapore, I would have no hesitation to buy one, definitely over one made in Leipzig. Probably on the same level of Munich or even higher.

Do you drive with your windows open? Don't. The window provides support for the side curtain airbag to work properly. Bad glass is not something I want. Besides, I don't like the brand name, Fuyao, on my car. I'd rather have Saint Gobain Sekurit. I'd settle for Pilkington.
I know what you are getting at. Has the US, Germany or other Western countries had engineering disasters? Yes, every country has. Ford Pinto? Where an American company built a car by American workers and American lawyers decided it was cheaper to pay claims after people died than fix the car before it went to market.

We can go back and forth forever. Any data or sources that say Fuyao glass is inferior or will cause the problems that you speak of yet?
PK2348 commented:
August 30, 2013, 9:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
This may be why U.S. foreign policy suffers from inexperience. Some of the lessons from the past 100 years are forgotten.

On 9-11, many people were shocked. Many hadn't even heard of bin Laden. One radio announcer even said that there must be some really bad air traffic control problem! Idiot, bin Laden's signature was all over it right away.

People with roots in the Cold War are still in power. In Cuba, the Castros are very much a Cold War participant. In Germany, some prominent members of government are from the old Soviet sector and were raised there.

The Cold War is still happening. Just look at Anna Chapman, the redhead Russian spy. One of her colleagues was a sleeper cell, a couple pretending to be American and raising children, who were to become spies.

You are, however, correct. The correct name is the Kia Cadenza.
Some of your statements make me question your logic.
Cold War could only happen when USA and USSR were equally strong superpowers. Russia is currently in no position to match US military and their main concern is self defense and being able to preserve the vast territory and resources.
As far as spies, every country does that. US was spying on EU as we recently learned. Are we having a cold war with EU?
Do you ever think that politicians try to make Russia appear as a threat because there is not a **** they can about the real new superpower, China? Where do you see that country in 10 years?
Russia currently has a lot more reasons to be cautious of future China than US. And US should be too.
Elk commented:
August 30, 2013, 10:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Ford Pinto? Where an American company built a car by American workers and American lawyers decided it was cheaper to pay claims after people died than fix the car before it went to market.
I agree with your point, but one correction: the decision to move forward was not made by lawyers but by Ford's executive team. It was a business decision, not a legal determination.
minn19 commented:
August 30, 2013, 10:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
I agree with your point, but one correction: the decision to move forward was not made by lawyers but by Ford's executive team. It was a business decision, not a legal determination.
Right, based on advice from their legal team. From what I read about it anyway.

My main point being is that almost every country has had their problems with issues like this. I'm not specifically sticking up for China or anybody else, nor calling American products bad, just that every country has these issues, even today.

If you want to go to the food aspect: look up how much e coli tainted ground beef gets through to market from American farms and processing plants. Bet you hesitate the next time you want to order a burger.

Getting back to the main point. Dave 20T, are looking to sell your BMW since it appears you think it is filled with dangerous parts from inferior manufacturing sources?
HugH commented:
August 30, 2013, 11:58 pm

Russian, NORAD forces unite for exercise

Three Russian Federation air force SU-27s intercept a passenger plane hijacked during a simulation to test the response of NORAD and Russian Federation forces. The exercise among Canadian and U.S. forces, along with the Russian Federation, saw the Canadians successfully hand off the hijacked plane to Russian fighters over the Bering Strait.
MARK THIESSEN/AP
http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1..._804/image.JPG
pointandgo commented:
August 31, 2013, 12:10 am

I'm curious where these parts were made:
- Vanos central valve (intake and exhaust)
- Oil control valve

That failed (limp mode) and were replaced in my F30 at less than 100 miles, keeping it in the shop for four days while they tore down the engine. I'd hate to think they were made in China, but I have no way of knowing.

I'm not a happy camper.
Elk commented:
August 31, 2013, 10:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Right, based on advice from their legal team. From what I read about it anyway.
Again, no. It was a pure accounting calculation. A standard, routine practice and a document regularly mischaracterized in the popular press and, consequently, by the average person.

The memo was an attachment to a submission to the NHTSA with a comparison of manufacturing costs v. the economic value of a life (not determined by Ford, but a standardized value regularly used in cost/benefit analysis in governmental regulation). Ironically, the document was submitted on an issue wholly unrelated to the gas tank issue.

Even Wikipedia has it more or less correct.

(Again, I do not disagree with your major point - just this aspect of your evidentiary support.)
gkr778 commented:
August 31, 2013, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Bad glass is not something I want.
So what exactly is wrong with the glass on your F30? Optical distortion? Poor structural integrity?

If this is such a concern, start another thread in the Dealer Feedback / Vehicle Problems area of Bimmerfest and thoroughly document the relevant issues and any diagnostic work you've done.
minn19 commented:
August 31, 2013, 1:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Again, no. It was a pure accounting calculation. A standard, routine practice and a document regularly mischaracterized in the popular press and, consequently, by the average person.

The memo was an attachment to a submission to the NHTSA with a comparison of manufacturing costs v. the economic value of a life (not determined by Ford, but a standardized value regularly used in cost/benefit analysis in governmental regulation). Ironically, the document was submitted on an issue wholly unrelated to the gas tank issue.

Even Wikipedia has it more or less correct.

(Again, I do not disagree with your major point - just this aspect of your evidentiary support.)
Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
csi commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
My point is that I am not willing to pay premium prices for goods that do not merit the premium pricing. If that is an "outdated view" than so be it. The market will ultimately determine if that is correct or not.
That depends on how you define the merit.

I think the problem is that most people go to Walmart to buy a $10 hammer from China and expect it to work like a $100 hammer. When the hammer doesn't perform as expected they go to buy a $200 made-in-USA hammer. When the $200 hammer work like a $100 hammer they praise how much better the made-in-USA hammer is than the Chinese one.

Some people just use the COO to hide the fact that they are cheap. If you pay for quality Chinese product you will get quality product.

The funny part is that if you ever visit a factory in China, you will see they usually have a production line dedicated to 'MFA' (Made for American). That usually means junks that dont pass the QC. The ones that pass the QC go to other Asian markets, where people often focus more on quality, not quantity.
minn19 commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by csi View Post
That depends on how you define the merit.

I think the problem is that most people go to Walmart to buy a $10 hammer from China and expect it to work like a $100 hammer. When the hammer doesn't perform as expected they go to buy a $200 made-in-USA hammer. When the $200 hammer work like a $100 hammer they praise how much better the made-in-USA hammer is than the Chinese one.

Some people just use the COO to hide the fact that they are cheap. If you pay for quality Chinese product you will get quality product.

The funny part is that if you ever visit a factory in China, you will see they usually have a production line dedicated to 'MFA' (Made for American). That usually means junks that dont pass the QC. The ones that pass the QC go to other Asian markets, where people often focus more on quality, not quantity.
I agree with you, but I think you got your last statement backwards. Did you mean to say quantity then quality for the other Asian markets.

A good example of this is iPhones. Produced in China and have exceptional build quality.
HELLR0T commented:
September 9, 2013, 9:08 pm

If it wasn't for globalization you wouldn't be able to buy a German car in the states.
HELLR0T commented:
September 9, 2013, 9:12 pm

I used to have a Camaro and the look of peoples faces when they find out their beloved American muscle car is produced in Canada was pretty amazing.
Dave 20T commented:
September 10, 2013, 12:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by HELLR0T View Post
If it wasn't for globalization you wouldn't be able to buy a German car in the states.
German cars have been sold in the US for over 50 years. Fuyao glass is new for US BMWs.
gkr778 commented:
September 10, 2013, 9:43 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Fuyao glass is new for US BMWs.
BMW chose well, as Fuyao Glass Corporation is one of the largest and most advanced global automotive glass manufacturers. In addition to BMW, Fuyao is also a qualified OE glass supplier to VW (including Audi and Bentley), GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, PSA Peugeot CitroŽn, Volvo Cars, and Hyundai among others.
Dave 20T commented:
September 10, 2013, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
BMW chose well, as Fuyao Glass Corporation is one of the largest and most advanced global automotive glass manufacturers. In addition to BMW, Fuyao is also a qualified OE glass supplier to VW (including Audi and Bentley), GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, PSA Peugeot CitroŽn, Volvo Cars, and Hyundai among others.
I wonder if this is a press release. I also wonder if BMW is testing Fuyao, not wanting to use them yet for the structural front windshield.

I also wonder if these other companies use Fuyao for their factories in the People's Republic of China mostly.

Lastly, I wonder which Bentley uses Fuyao or is it a press release to show that Bentley is owned by VW, not that it uses Fuyao glass. I wonder if some people are politically correct in allowing themselves to die or be injured to prove that all parts are equal unless proven in court.
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 10, 2013, 12:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
I wonder if this is a press release. I also wonder if BMW is testing Fuyao, not wanting to use them yet for the structural front windshield.

I also wonder if these other companies use Fuyao for their factories in the People's Republic of China mostly.

Lastly, I wonder which Bentley uses Fuyao or is it a press release to show that Bentley is owned by VW, not that it uses Fuyao glass. I wonder if some people are politically correct in allowing themselves to die or be injured to prove that all parts are equal unless proven in court.
I steer clear of Chinese products when they involve my children...maybe warranted, maybe not, but honestly just not taking changes with the kids. I steer clear of Chinese made food/beverage products as well. That said, there's lots of things I own and have owned that are produced in China that hold up just fine (just as there's good and bad products from most countries).

In reality, you could shut all the doubters up here if you could produce any type of evidence that Fuyao glass underperforms any other manufacturer. Something aside from just "not made in Germany" would put this to rest. Just post a link to any test or article that even remotely supports your disdain for this company and this whole back and forth would be over.

Otherwise, you're just being closed-minded about it. I'm far from politically correct, but I prefer evidence to back up my bias...
Dave 20T commented:
September 10, 2013, 8:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I steer clear of Chinese products when they involve my children...maybe warranted, maybe not, but honestly just not taking changes with the kids. I steer clear of Chinese made food/beverage products as well. .
I don't. If it is a Chinese product, made in Taiwan (formal name is the Republic of China), I am not so concerned. The spare tire from my previous car was Pirelli branded and made in Taiwan. If it is from the People's Republic of China, I do get concerned. It is not the racial background but rather the work ethic and lack of effective government regulation.
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 10, 2013, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
I don't. If it is a Chinese product, made in Taiwan (formal name is the Republic of China), I am not so concerned. The spare tire from my previous car was Pirelli branded and made in Taiwan. If it is from the People's Republic of China, I do get concerned. It is not the racial background but rather the work ethic and lack of effective government regulation.
So...uhh...no evidence about the inferiority of Fuyao, then? Just repeated generalizations about countries and a reminder of their formal names. Got it.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Dave 20T commented:
September 10, 2013, 8:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
So...uhh...no evidence about the inferiority of Fuyao, then? Just repeated generalizations about countries and a reminder of their formal names. Got it.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
When you are minutes from death from poisonous chemicals in toothpaste or about to die from a car parts failure, it is too late to say "I have proof".
Michael Schott commented:
September 10, 2013, 9:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
When you are minutes from death from poisonous chemicals in toothpaste or about to die from a car parts failure, it is too late to say "I have proof".
It's extremely unfair to put all Chinese suppliers in the same category. Thousands of US companies and nearly everything we use on a daily basis contains something made in China. It's a fact of life that we are in a global economy and that China is quite capable of producing high quality parts and does a large majority of the time. Last, BMW and others have QC oversight over the products they buy from Chinese suppliers. It's ignorant to think that these parts are less safe than any other supplier and unless you have specific data showing these BMW suppliers have issues then you are being overly dramatic.
minn19 commented:
September 10, 2013, 9:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
When you are minutes from death from poisonous chemicals in toothpaste or about to die from a car parts failure, it is too late to say "I have proof".
So...like I asked in another post, are you going to sell your BMW's before the killer glass gets you?
gkr778 commented:
September 11, 2013, 1:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
When you are minutes from death from poisonous chemicals in toothpaste or about to die from a car parts failure, it is too late to say "I have proof".
It's never too late, though, for Bimmerfest members to visit their ignore list and add 'Dave 20T'.

Done.
Markus_OS commented:
September 11, 2013, 1:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
My F30 was assembled in Munich (VIN 11th digit is F, South African cars have N as the 11th digit). So far, I have seen parts made in:

Romania: Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
Austria: headlights
UK: Pilkington front windshield
People's Republic of China: all the side glass made by Fuyao in Changchun Jilin
owners manual case
Turkey: rear windshield, Sisecam glass line made by Can Isleme Sanayli

What have you found? I wish all the glass was Saint Gobain Sekurit

I see variable quality parts, some strong looking and some poor quality. Too bad.
. Welcome to reality! Of course also the German manufacturer have to deal with keeping the price in an affordable range. But you can be sure that BMW set their high production quality standards to all suppliers. I was never disappointed by BMW products yet. The engineering counts.
Flakmunky commented:
September 11, 2013, 2:01 am

I've been bopping along with the thought that BMW design in quality, specify quality testing methods, acceptance methods and criteria and define quality tolerances for all of the components in my vehicle.

I also thought that the car had been crash tested and awarded 5 stars from Euro NCAP, who never once mentioned the lethal glass. http://www.euroncap.com/results/bmw/3_series/476.aspx

But now this thread has me really worried the glass in my not-yet-delivered F31 is going to kill me and my family, or it might make us all go blind. Not sure what brand of toothpaste we use is going to contribute to this catastrophe, though...

Or maybe viewing the world through this glass distorts perspective and the result is this thread?!
Dave 20T commented:
September 11, 2013, 9:32 am

Child restraints that may come apart in an impact. Fuses that could catch fire when overloaded. Tires susceptible to tread separation.Those are some of the dangers American consumers face as Chinese manufacturers increase the number of automotive parts they are sending to the United States, according to consumer and safety advocates. They parallel problems with some other products from China ranging from medicine to pet food to childrenís toys.The complexity of todayís cars creates many possibilities for problems with imported parts: tire valves that break and let air escape; replacement window glass that does not meet the standards for tempered glass; high-intensity discharge headlight conversions that donít meet federal standards.

There are so many automotive products coming in from China that American safety officials canít keep track of them, said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.Mr. Ditlow has been researching recalls of Chinese auto parts in the National Highway Traffic Safety Administrationís records. Those recalls are now posted on the safety centerís*Web site.Mr. Ditlow said his review convinces him that too many Chinese companies are unfamiliar with ó or donít care about ó safety standards in the United States and thus donít meet them.For consumers, that means automotive equipment made in China is less likely to comply with safety standards than the same product made in the United States, Mr. Ditlow said.ďThe companies in North America know that process,Ē he said.Sean Kane is the director of Safety Research & Strategies, a consulting firm. He worried that consumers think there is more government oversight of automotive equipment coming from China than actually exists.......

r.ĒOne recall found by Mr. Ditlow involved kits that would make it possible for regular headlights to be converted to the more powerful high-intensity discharge lights. The seller told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration he sold them on eBay (or with the help of friends) and kept his inventory in a closet.The problem is that under federal law the importer is responsible for making sure the product is safe.

......
Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio to introduce a bill last year that would require importers to have some kind of insurance to guarantee there is enough money to cover a recall. He said the United States canít regulate the safety of products ó whether automotive or pharmaceutical ó produced in China, concluding that, ďThe solution is to make the importer responsible.ĒThe tire case also demonstrates the trouble a small importer can have getting a manufacturer to make safety improvements.Court and safety agency records show that the tire importer had been complaining to Hangzhou Zhongce since at least 2005 about structural changes to various tires that made the tire more likely to fail, but got little response. In one e-mail the importer complained to the tiremaker that it was showing ďa pattern for disregard to specs, mostly for cost reasons or standardization for their factory and ease of manufacture without testing to support said changes and without consulting us.ĒďTheir engineers did not believe there was any issue or problem,Ē Mr. Lavigne said.
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 11, 2013, 9:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
It's never too late, though, for Bimmerfest members to visit their ignore list and add 'Dave 20T'.

Done.
That feature is awesome!

Now I can reread this thread and it just looks like a bunch of people arguing with an irrational ghost.

Thanks gkr - you have greatly enhanced my forum experience for the day!
Dave 20T commented:
September 11, 2013, 11:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
That feature is awesome!
The ignore feature can be used by any user. However, by doing so, one is actively seeking censorship. Censorship against others is fine if you are in power but limiting information flow to yourself is not good. Sometimes, politicians are so insulated and surrounded by their staff that they lose track of reality.

With the disclaimer that all analogies and all summaries have limitations, I make the following comments which partly summarize of the thread.

1. The number of parts from outside Europe is news to many. The countries that parts come from, such as Turkey, Indonesia, China comes as a surprise to many. Fuyao glass was a surprise to some.

2. Some people believe only in proof to the level required of a criminal conviction. If that high level is not achieved, everything and everyone is equal. Source of the part does not matter.

3. Some people have full confidence in BMW choosing the right parts that will be of high quality. (I have some confidence in that but not full confidence given that some parts have not been as durable or performed as well as it should).

4. Some people are suspicious of parts from certain countries given that there are valid questions about other products.

5. Some people believe that the higher costs of BMW cars should reflect a higher part quality.

6. Some people are highly supportive of parts being from the People's Republic of China.

The people with the most data are not talking. BMW doesn't give away that sort of information about what suppliers are problematic.
HELLR0T commented:
September 11, 2013, 11:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
German cars have been sold in the US for over 50 years. Fuyao glass is new for US BMWs.
That is correct and global movement of people, goods, and ideas has been happening way longer than 50 years.

Sorry you guys are so upset over your glass, but things change.
Dave 20T commented:
September 11, 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
BMW chose well, as Fuyao Glass Corporation is one of the largest and most advanced global automotive glass manufacturers. In addition to BMW, Fuyao is also a qualified OE glass supplier to VW (including Audi and Bentley), GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, PSA Peugeot CitroŽn, Volvo Cars, and Hyundai among others.
Bigger is not necessarily better. Otherwise, we'd all buy GM cars.

Fuyao can claim that because cars in the People's Republic of China largely have to be built there. Imports are heavily taxed to the point that cars for everyday people cannot be imported. Most larger car companies, like those listed, build cars in China. Fuyao is one of the few that can supply large factories.

There are difference in glass. There are quite a few threads about PPG versus Pilkington versus Saint Gobain Sekurit glass in bimmerfest.

It's also possible that cars are a commodity to some. Would you buy a car made in China? How about a car made in China by a Chinese company who bought the rights from a Western car company? How about a car designed in China and made by a mainland Chinese company?
HELLR0T commented:
September 11, 2013, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
The ignore feature can be used by any user. However, by doing so, one is actively seeking censorship. Censorship against others is fine if you are in power but limiting information flow to yourself is not good. Sometimes, politicians are so insulated and surrounded by their staff that they lose track of reality.

With the disclaimer that all analogies and all summaries have limitations, I make the following comments which partly summarize of the thread.

1. The number of parts from outside Europe is news to many. The countries that parts come from, such as Turkey, Indonesia, China comes as a surprise to many. Fuyao glass was a surprise to some.

2. Some people believe only in proof to the level required of a criminal conviction. If that high level is not achieved, everything and everyone is equal. Source of the part does not matter.

3. Some people have full confidence in BMW choosing the right parts that will be of high quality. (I have some confidence in that but not full confidence given that some parts have not been as durable or performed as well as it should).

4. Some people are suspicious of parts from certain countries given that there are valid questions about other products.

5. Some people believe that the higher costs of BMW cars should reflect a higher part quality.

6. Some people are highly supportive of parts being from the People's Republic of China.

The people with the most data are not talking. BMW doesn't give away that sort of information about what suppliers are problematic.
Is this changing to a "to" vs. "too" thread?
minn19 commented:
September 11, 2013, 12:25 pm

Dave 20T, tinfoil hat jokes aside, I don't disagree that some bad parts get through and shady politicians let it happen or don't know don't care about it. What I find weird is that you are singling out mainland China as the main problem for this. Tire delamination? Remember a little company called Firestone coupled with another little company called Ford that yet again knew there were issues with their products, but a bunch of people had to die before anything was done about it. I can't remember, did anybody get convicted of a crime for any of that? I don't think so.

If you read the other forum about the current brake issue, a real not made up serious problem by the way. Preliminary information sounds like it is a manufacturing issue from the factory in, wait for it....Munich! If true I guess that shoots down the theory that German made 328's are the best argument or at least puts a large dent in that theory.

You wanna talk about oversight. In the good ol USA financial institutions can gamble with other peoples money or just flat out defraud investors and get away with it. Yes Windsor, people in droves also walked away from their houses with seemingly know ill effect except for a hit to their credit and they have to pay higher interest rates when getting credit. Not only was nobody charged/convicted of any crime for damn near collapsing the world monetary markets, our government gave them back a lot of their losses and allowed them to keep paying bonuses for doing such a bang up job. Then they helped home owners who entered in to agreements they couldn't hope to possibly pay for. I know it is much more complicated than this, but you guys get my point.

You do this crap in mainland China and embarrass the communist party with bad PR. Guess what, they shoot you and as the story goes, they bill your family for the ammo. If your lucky I guess you just get tossed in to some nasty prison over there for who knows how long. How is that for oversight?
northernlights commented:
September 11, 2013, 12:29 pm

Error




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northernlights commented:
September 11, 2013, 12:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post


It's also possible that cars are a commodity to some. Would you buy a car made in China? How about a car made in China by a Chinese company who bought the rights from a Western car company? How about a car designed in China and made by a mainland Chinese company?
Cold day in hell




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minn19 commented:
September 11, 2013, 12:43 pm

Hmm, they build Airbus A320 family series of aircraft there and they don't seem to be falling out of the sky.

http://www.airbus.com/company/worldw...rbus-in-china/
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 11, 2013, 1:39 pm

Great video of a crash test showing all the Fuyao glass exploding on impact. Utter failure all around.

http://youtu.be/4fQez2CVe-s

Just kidding - everything performs beautifully. Just thought it was a cool video of a high-speed crash test...shows how well these cars hold up in case you ever decide to try to blast through a concrete wall...
Dippydo commented:
September 11, 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Hmm, they build Airbus A320 family series of aircraft there and they don't seem to be falling out of the sky.

http://www.airbus.com/company/worldw...rbus-in-china/

I thought I read the Airbus 320 has the most issues out of all the planes? Have to try to find the article again....
minn19 commented:
September 11, 2013, 3:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
I thought I read the Airbus 320 has the most issues out of all the planes? Have to try to find the article again....
The French-German or Chinese built ones? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We can go back and forth like this forever. Take Boeing's troubled 787 program. They've been trying to get that on track for almost a decade now. They had about 80 completed aircraft that had so many problems they have had to do months to years of major rework of the early aircraft. Then you have the political aspect of the whole mess. After the JAL 787 battery fire in Boston and the ANA 787 having to make an emergency landing because of a battery melting down, the FAA is under pressure for certifying the aircraft to quickly. Airbus has had similiar issues with their A380.

We had our own tragic failure of our political/engineering/construction institutions when the I35W bridge collapsed in downtown Minneapolis. Any way, my main point still is all countries have their scandals, that involve intertwined politics and industry. I don't get why we are singling out specific ones.
Dippydo commented:
September 11, 2013, 5:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
The French-German or Chinese built ones? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We can go back and forth like this forever. Take Boeing's troubled 787 program. They've been trying to get that on track for almost a decade now. They had about 80 completed aircraft that had so many problems they have had to do months to years of major rework of the early aircraft. Then you have the political aspect of the whole mess. After the JAL 787 battery fire in Boston and the ANA 787 having to make an emergency landing because of a battery melting down, the FAA is under pressure for certifying the aircraft to quickly. Airbus has had similiar issues with their A380.

We had our own tragic failure of our political/engineering/construction institutions when the I35W bridge collapsed in downtown Minneapolis. Any way, my main point still is all countries have their scandals, that involve intertwined politics and industry. I don't get why we are singling out specific ones.

To single out the 787 is a different scenario as they are trying to do something that has never been done before. This has nothing to do with a quality workforce more than working out new technologies. I would also point the 320 in the same category, but I just pointed out that airplane was not a good example to show either because it has had it's more than fair share of mechanical issues.

I am in manufacturing and it is well known that certain areas of China or any country is stronger than others in certain areas of manufacturing. For example, if you were to make something electronic, your best area of expertise would be Shenzhen. For metal work, Ningbo and so one. Why? Because typically these areas have been doing a certain trade longer. Sure Ningbo is coming up and so is Shanghai but Shanghai is a lot more expensive. Now when it comes to BMW, I trust them to pick the best places as we do to get parts made. I still have my doubts when it comes to picking SA as an assembly point, but that is just from my industry and perhaps the auto industry is different. Who knows and BMW sure the hell won't release that kind of data either.
minn19 commented:
September 11, 2013, 7:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
To single out the 787 is a different scenario as they are trying to do something that has never been done before. This has nothing to do with a quality workforce more than working out new technologies. I would also point the 320 in the same category, but I just pointed out that airplane was not a good example to show either because it has had it's more than fair share of mechanical issues.

I am in manufacturing and it is well known that certain areas of China or any country is stronger than others in certain areas of manufacturing. For example, if you were to make something electronic, your best area of expertise would be Shenzhen. For metal work, Ningbo and so one. Why? Because typically these areas have been doing a certain trade longer. Sure Ningbo is coming up and so is Shanghai but Shanghai is a lot more expensive. Now when it comes to BMW, I trust them to pick the best places as we do to get parts made. I still have my doubts when it comes to picking SA as an assembly point, but that is just from my industry and perhaps the auto industry is different. Who knows and BMW sure the hell won't release that kind of data either.
I mostly agree with what you are saying about the 787. It is not an apples to apples comparison. I am a Boeing fan as I am an aviation enthusiast also. I'm not saying anything negative about their work force, if anything, it is the management of the program I would criticize. New and revolutionary technologies aside, they were still 4+ years late on EIS and all the other major problems have been a serious black eye to an iconic US company. I know Airbus has had similar issues with the A380 and A400. Any way, this isn't ANET, sorry.

It is good to hear from your perspective that they have good quality products coming out of there. As for the SA plant, I would have no problem accepting a BMW from there, but there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
Dave 20T commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:43 pm

More data points:

Czech Republic: battery hold down bracket, Borbet wheels.

I have a spare tire assembly that I put together myself using a Borbet wheel made in Germany.
Michael Schott commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
More data points:

Czech Republic: battery hold down bracket, Borbet wheels.

I have a spare tire assembly that I put together myself using a Borbet wheel made in Germany.
So? If the Borbet wheels are the same in Germany and the Czech Republic and they are less expensive from the CR, it's a no brainer for BMW.
Dave 20T commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
So? If the Borbet wheels are the same in Germany and the Czech Republic and they are less expensive from the CR, it's a no brainer for BMW.
No doubt, bean counters at BMW and other companies are constantly looking for cheaper parts. The politically correct answer might be "any product made in another country is the same, to claim otherwise is racist". On the other hand, one might feel that cultural and/or technical differences allow one to have more confidence in parts made by a certain company and/or in a certain country.

There is even debate on bimmerfest whether a German or South African assembled 3 series is better. My personal feeling is that the difference is small and unclear, less important than the issue of using parts from certain countries.

As far as BMW selecting the right parts, it may happen but sometimes it doesn't happen. Have you seen the 3 series carpet mats? They are so thin and of worse quality than any mat that I've seen except for the sheets of paper than repair places use. It's a thin piece of what can barely be called carpet.

Kia uses the logic in its ads that it's specifications, such as engine size, acceleration, and other data is similar to the BMW 5 series and wants the reader to conclude that one of the Kia models is equivalent or better than the BMW 5 series.
Michael Schott commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
No doubt, bean counters at BMW and other companies are constantly looking for cheaper parts. The politically correct answer might be "any product made in another country is the same, to claim otherwise is racist". On the other hand, one might feel that cultural and/or technical differences allow one to have more confidence in parts made by a certain company and/or in a certain country.

There is even debate on bimmerfest whether a German or South African assembled 3 series is better. My personal feeling is that the difference is small and unclear, less important than the issue of using parts from certain countries.

As far as BMW selecting the right parts, it may happen but sometimes it doesn't happen. Have you seen the 3 series carpet mats? They are so thin and of worse quality than any mat that I've seen except for the sheets of paper than repair places use. It's a thin piece of what can barely be called carpet.

Kia uses the logic in its ads that it's specifications, such as engine size, acceleration, and other data is similar to the BMW 5 series and wants the reader to conclude that one of the Kia models is equivalent or better than the BMW 5 series.
I see it and have said this earlier that it really doesn't matter where the parts come from (unless the vendor is unethical) as long as the parts meet BMW's specifications. And if not, then BMW is to blame for not requiring higher quality parts. I have not seen the floor mats but can let you know my thoughts when my F30 arrives.
Mark K commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
More data points:

Czech Republic: battery hold down bracket, Borbet wheels.

I have a spare tire assembly that I put together myself using a Borbet wheel made in Germany.
Made in China :Engine vacuum pump for brake lines
gkr778 commented:
September 30, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Made in China :Engine vacuum pump for brake lines
Are you sure? I thought that was sourced from Germany.
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 6:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
The French-German or Chinese built ones? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We can go back and forth like this forever. Take Boeing's troubled 787 program. They've been trying to get that on track for almost a decade now. They had about 80 completed aircraft that had so many problems they have had to do months to years of major rework of the early aircraft. Then you have the political aspect of the whole mess. After the JAL 787 battery fire in Boston and the ANA 787 having to make an emergency landing because of a battery melting down, the FAA is under pressure for certifying the aircraft to quickly. Airbus has had similiar issues with their A380.

We had our own tragic failure of our political/engineering/construction institutions when the I35W bridge collapsed in downtown Minneapolis. Any way, my main point still is all countries have their scandals, that involve intertwined politics and industry. I don't get why we are singling out specific ones.
Love it or leave it! I'm sure you'll love living in China. You could be their propoganda spokesperson.
minn19 commented:
September 30, 2013, 7:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Love it or leave it! I'm sure you'll love living in China. You could be their propoganda spokesperson.
Wow, this was kinda late in responding to my post. Yes, I am a flaming communist that loves China and I cannot wait to move there.

I'm sorry that I am not a flag waving U.S.A. is the best at everything kind of person. China makes some good stuff and some terrible stuff, same with the U.S.A. Both countries and other prominent western ones we have been discussing have had their scandals and oversight issues as well. I provided specific examples that you could of debated me with in multiple posts, but you chose to go the easy way with a sarcastic comment. Good for you and very intelligent I might add.
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 7:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Wow, this was kinda late in responding to my post. Yes, I am a flaming communist that loves China and I cannot wait to move there.

I'm sorry that I am not a flag waving U.S.A. is the best at everything kind of person. China makes some good stuff and some terrible stuff, same with the U.S.A. Both countries and other prominent western ones we have been discussing have had their scandals and oversight issues as well. I provided specific examples that you could of debated me with in multiple posts, but you chose to go the easy way with a sarcastic comment. Good for you and very intelligent I might add.
Thank You.
1stofMANY commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I'd be more concerned about the quality of the 5% of parts made by UAW workers in the US...
Granted, this (your post) was months ago, but I'm ABSOLUTELY with you on this one.

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Mark K commented:
October 1, 2013, 7:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Are you sure? I thought that was sourced from Germany.
I was joking. It's about current brakes recall.
LarryboysUDM commented:
December 17, 2013, 10:59 pm

I was at Costco this weekend and they had a Lincoln on display. I was just looking and I noticed the windows were Saint-Gobain Sekurit.
So Lincoln gets this and we get BMW Fuyao
HugH commented:
December 18, 2013, 12:15 am

So??????? Who cares?
Elk commented:
December 18, 2013, 6:15 pm

Only the terminally xenophobic.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 18, 2013, 6:40 pm

I will post this here, it kind of relates.

When news came of the new M3/M4, a lot of M3 owners complained about the turbos being "jap turbos"-clearly showing no knowledge of the industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxxx View Post
I find it insulting that a car of this caliber has Japanese engine components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
Again, statements like this show a lack of understanding in how cars are produced.

You think the Ferrari F40 has Italian turbos?

edit: For the sake of noobs who do not know much about turbos...

When you want pizza, you go to a pizza place, when you want steak you go to a steak house. Turbos, there are only a few well established manufacturers. When you want a reliable turbo from an specific manufacturer, Mitsubishi is a great place to go.

IHI=Japanese, very common on a variety of cars including the Ferrari F40
Mitsubishi=Japanese, again very common, on a variety of cars including my old Saab Viggen-a Swedish car
Garret=US company, even some Nisans+ Saabs had them even some GM cars like the McLaren Pontiac Grand Prix which had a T25

There are others, such as Holset which are more common on big Diesel products.

Point is, you go for the component that is specialized by a manufacturer. This stupidity about the country of origin for the turbo of your German car is not a place to have a concern about origin. Go find some German turbos for your German cars...see how that works out for you.
tankton commented:
December 18, 2013, 7:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I will post this here, it kind of relates.

When news came of the new M3/M4, a lot of M3 owners complained about the turbos being "jap turbos"-clearly showing no knowledge of the industry.
To a lessor extent, there is some feeling IHI has lost it's edge to Garrett and Honeywell after the late 90s, to the extent that several Japanese companies (Subaru, Honda - Honeywell; Honda - Borgwarner; Mazda, Honda - Garrett [diesels]) have started switching away from Japanese suppliers.

Of course, that's only in larger engines. For the sub 1-liter class, the story changes.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 18, 2013, 7:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tankton View Post
To a lessor extent, there is some feeling IHI has lost it's edge to Garrett and Honeywell after the late 90s, to the extent that several Japanese companies (Subaru, Honda - Honeywell; Honda - Borgwarner; Mazda, Honda - Garrett [diesels]) have started switching away from Japanese suppliers.

Of course, that's only in larger engines. For the sub 1-liter class, the story changes.
Point me to a well known and well respected German automotive turbo supplier.
gkr778 commented:
December 18, 2013, 8:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
So Lincoln gets this and we get BMW Fuyao
That should be a . Not only is the window glass on your F30 sourced from a respected company, the car itself is too. Lincoln, as an automotive brand, has a long way to go until it achieves that.
Dave 20T commented:
December 19, 2013, 1:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
That should be a . Not only is the window glass on your F30 sourced from a respected company, the car itself is too. Lincoln, as an automotive brand, has a long way to go until it achieves that.
Not everyone believes the Fuyao Glass Industry Group Company is a respected company. I'd prefer Saint Gobain Sekurit or PPG/PGW, even Pilkington, over Vitro, Safelite, Shunfa, or Fuyao.
tankton commented:
December 19, 2013, 3:21 am

EDIT: nvm.
Dr. 328xi commented:
December 19, 2013, 9:57 am

How is this topic still alive? And where are the articles citing the recall of the F30s due to the abundance Fuyao Glass failures?
Dave 20T commented:
December 19, 2013, 10:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
How is this topic still alive? And where are the articles citing the recall of the F30s due to the abundance Fuyao Glass failures?
The majority of junk cars don't get recalled. Even the Tesla fires haven't resulted in a recall. One Cadillac had rubber coated key fobs that wear out after two to four years of normal use and even erode so that the electronics fall out....no recall
Dr. 328xi commented:
December 19, 2013, 11:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
The majority of junk cars don't get recalled. Even the Tesla fires haven't resulted in a recall. One Cadillac had rubber coated key fobs that wear out after two to four years of normal use and even erode so that the electronics fall out....no recall
I was being sarcastic. But, the fact that an American car had a low quality part is not terribly shocking to me...Can't be spending money on manufacturing or procuring quality parts when you have union pensions to deal with...priorities!

Regarding BMW, have there even been anecdotal reports of Fuyao failures? I don't exactly have a lot of knowledge when it comes to automotive glass producers. I really don't care where any part of my car comes from, assuming it's well-built. Since I have not heard any evidence that the Fuyao glass BMW is using has been failing, I have no real concerns about it.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 19, 2013, 11:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
The majority of junk cars don't get recalled. Even the Tesla fires haven't resulted in a recall. One Cadillac had rubber coated key fobs that wear out after two to four years of normal use and even erode so that the electronics fall out....no recall
Tesla fires? The Tesla is 3x LESS likely to catch fire than most any other car on the road. Do you believe everything you see on the news?

The first year of the Ferrari 458 Italia resulted in more fires than the Tesla which sold many more than the Ferrari.
gkr778 commented:
December 19, 2013, 11:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
But, the fact that an American car had a low quality part is not terribly shocking to me...Can't be spending money on manufacturing or procuring quality parts when you have union pensions to deal with...priorities!
I'll assume you're being sarcastic there too, Dr. 328xi. There are numerous American cars and light trucks that evince fine craftsmanship and use high quality components, including models from Tesla and Cadillac. Some of those vehicles even use glass supplied by Fuyao!
Dr. 328xi commented:
December 19, 2013, 12:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
I'll assume you're being sarcastic there too, Dr. 328xi. There are numerous American cars and light trucks that evince fine craftsmanship and use high quality components, including models from Tesla and Cadillac. Some of those vehicles even use glass supplied by Fuyao!
Yes, yes I am. If I ever have a need for a full-size SUV or a pickup truck, I would likely only look at American makes. And, while GM may not have handled their financial woes terribly well, I think Ford has done an admirable job of righting their ship without selling themselves to the government in the process. I figured this thread need a dose of sarcastic hyperbole to balance the seemingly serious hyperbole... :
Dave 20T commented:
December 19, 2013, 1:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
The majority of junk cars don't get recalled. Even the Tesla fires haven't resulted in a recall. One Cadillac had rubber coated key fobs that wear out after two to four years of normal use and even erode so that the electronics fall out....no recall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I was being sarcastic. But, the fact that an American car had a low quality part is not terribly shocking to me...Can't be spending money on manufacturing or procuring quality parts when you have union pensions to deal with...priorities!
.
The poorly designed part was made by Delphi in Germany , not the U.S. The company used to be a GM subsidiary but is now an independent company.

It's true that another company can ruin the reputation of a country. Poison in toothpaste or poisonous compounds in baby formula used to fool the tests used to measure protein are examples. However, these two examples happened in the People's Republic of China, not Singapore, not Canada, not the U.S. I don't have confidence in Fuyao glass but think that the consequences of failure is probably not too bad (unless integrity is so poor that it doesn't support the head air curtain or gets scratched easily or transmits too much noise).
minn19 commented:
December 19, 2013, 4:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
The poorly designed part was made by Delphi in Germany , not the U.S. The company used to be a GM subsidiary but is now an independent company.

It's true that another company can ruin the reputation of a country. Poison in toothpaste or poisonous compounds in baby formula used to fool the tests used to measure protein are examples. However, these two examples happened in the People's Republic of China, not Singapore, not Canada, not the U.S. I don't have confidence in Fuyao glass but think that the consequences of failure is probably not too bad (unless integrity is so poor that it doesn't support the head air curtain or gets scratched easily or transmits too much noise).
Dave, we've talked about this before, do you have any credible articles that say Fuyao glass is a sub-standard/dangerous product? Plus, I assume they've done crash tests on 3er cars with Fuyao glass installed. If it performed horribly, would that not have been noted and mentioned in an article somewhere?
Dave 20T commented:
December 19, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Dave, we've talked about this before, do you have any credible articles that say Fuyao glass is a sub-standard/dangerous product? Plus, I assume they've done crash tests on 3er cars with Fuyao glass installed. If it performed horribly, would that not have been noted and mentioned in an article somewhere?
There are way too many questions in life that far exceed the capacity to do a controlled study. Even in medicine alone, there are too many questions to answer. For example, the question of elderly women getting mammograms is not settled as far as which is best, what is cheaper, is it ok to have some people die.

The result of not enough time, too much work means we have to make assumptions. One assumption is that a US citizen gets security clearance where a foreigner could be very capable and not leak secrets. Another assumption is to trust entities. For example, there is not a policeman or a federal inspector inspecting every pill. We just trust them.

It's a matter of trust. Do you trust a product made in a country that has seen huge ethical lapses? I am very wary of things made in the People's Republic of China. It is not racism because I don't have doubts about things made by Chinese people in the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Singapore.

There is a bad track record. Having too little fluoride in toothpaste may be sloppy but adding poison is downright evil. So is adding poison to baby formula in order to fool the tests that measure protein levels. Poison in dog treats is yet another example.

BMWs costs more. I would expect better design and better quality.
Michael Schott commented:
December 19, 2013, 6:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
There are way too many questions in life that far exceed the capacity to do a controlled study. Even in medicine alone, there are too many questions to answer. For example, the question of elderly women getting mammograms is not settled as far as which is best, what is cheaper, is it ok to have some people die.

The result of not enough time, too much work means we have to make assumptions. One assumption is that a US citizen gets security clearance where a foreigner could be very capable and not leak secrets. Another assumption is to trust entities. For example, there is not a policeman or a federal inspector inspecting every pill. We just trust them.

It's a matter of trust. Do you trust a product made in a country that has seen huge ethical lapses? I am very wary of things made in the People's Republic of China. It is not racism because I don't have doubts about things made by Chinese people in the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Singapore.

There is a bad track record. Having too little fluoride in toothpaste may be sloppy but adding poison is downright evil. So is adding poison to baby formula in order to fool the tests that measure protein levels. Poison in dog treats is yet another example.

BMWs costs more. I would expect better design and better quality.
I trust that BMW has procedures in place to insure the quality of outsourced parts.
Elk commented:
December 19, 2013, 6:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
It's a matter of trust. Do you trust a product made in a country that has seen huge ethical lapses?
If this is the test, no one should buy a single part from Germany. Ever.

Or the U.S. for that matter.

The basis for this thread is not fact, but prejudice and bias.

Every country makes both good products and bad. Every country has slimy companies - including the U.S.
Dave 20T commented:
December 19, 2013, 7:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
If this is the test, no one should buy a single part from Germany. Ever.

Or the U.S. for that matter.

The basis for this thread is not fact, but prejudice and bias.

Every country makes both good products and bad. Every country has slimy companies - including the U.S.
But some countries have a better track record than others. Still, using a track record is biased because it doesn't account for the present. Inspect every part, every grain of wheat, every drop of water? Inspect every car on the ship to check for smuggling, causing months of delay to get your car?
Nordique commented:
December 19, 2013, 7:19 pm

I--for one--count on BMW to pick the best suppliers, not the cheapest.
pointandgo commented:
December 19, 2013, 9:42 pm

Aside from quality standards, many automotive parts must meet DOT/NHTSA federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS), many of which come with min. performance standards, or mandatory test procedures...regardless of country of origin.

http://www.isbe.state.il.us/funding/pdf/FMVSS.pdf

NHTSA does conduct a certain amount of "compliance testing" on automotive items subject to FMVSS. Failure to meet FMVSS standards can of course result in expensive recalls...or the manufacturer could face civil penalties.
sf_loft commented:
December 19, 2013, 10:34 pm

Finally BMW owners realize that their parts are not made by German elves. Every time there is a BMW vs. Audi thread, people quickly say that Audi is made of cheap VW parts. Those parts most likely come from the same supplier. The SC factory sources its parts from NA suppliers. It's all the same and all that matters is quality control.
dhstadt commented:
December 19, 2013, 11:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Finally BMW owners realize that their parts are not made by German elves. Every time there is a BMW vs. Audi thread, people quickly say that Audi is made of cheap VW parts. Those parts most likely come from the same supplier. The SC factory sources its parts from NA suppliers. It's all the same and all that matters is quality control.
The SC plant sources from all over the world. Our Z3 built in 98 has parts from numerous countries so it has been going on a long time. If well made, who cares where they came from. It is a global economy and the diversity is only going to increase.
Dr. 328xi commented:
December 20, 2013, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Finally BMW owners realize that their parts are not made by German elves. Every time there is a BMW vs. Audi thread, people quickly say that Audi is made of cheap VW parts. Those parts most likely come from the same supplier. The SC factory sources its parts from NA suppliers. It's all the same and all that matters is quality control.
My Audi actually had a significantly higher percentage of German origin on the parts breakdown on the sticker. It was almost 20% "more German" than my F30. Can't say it made any difference...


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Elk commented:
December 20, 2013, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
I--for one--count on BMW to pick the best suppliers, not the cheapest.
BMW, as with all manufacturers, buys the cheapest parts that meet spec.

No one buys the "best" parts but, rather, those of sufficient quality to perform the job at a reasonable cost. These are sourced from many countries.

The marketplace is to competitive for any mass market manufacturer to buy only from the "best," regardless of cost.
f30jojo commented:
December 20, 2013, 9:43 am

Would you rather have a low quaility build with high quality parts? or a high quality build with low quailty parts?

It's not that BMW is building cars differently.... Ford, Chevy, etc have caught up...

Its hard to find a true low quality car these days, think about it.
Elk commented:
December 20, 2013, 11:33 am

The domestics "caught up" to BMW a long time ago.

BMW's quality control and reliability is nothing to envy.
Dippydo commented:
December 20, 2013, 11:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
BMW, as with all manufacturers, buys the cheapest parts that meet spec.

No one buys the "best" parts but, rather, those of sufficient quality to perform the job at a reasonable cost. These are sourced from many countries.

The marketplace is to competitive for any mass market manufacturer to buy only from the "best," regardless of cost.
+1. I have personally been to China and been to factories that made parts for both Mercedes and BMW. Those factories were not the 'best' but were able to give the 'best' price. BMW like all companies put higher priority on certain parts than others. For example the knobs and many plastic injection parts are typically what come from China and China does them to an acceptable level and at a much cheaper price. So it makes sense. When BMW starts to outsource the engine to China, then there is reason to be alarmed.
gkr778 commented:
December 20, 2013, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
When BMW starts to outsource the engine to China, then there is reason to be alarmed.
Why? BMW already operates an engine manufacturing plant in Shenyang that's among the newest and most advanced facilities of its kind within BMW Group.

And while the term 'outsource' technically applies here - BMW has a joint venture with Brilliance Automotive - that's just intrinsic to the automotive industry in China. It's different from a full outsourcing arrangement, e.g., the one in which Toyota purchases BMW diesel engines for use in its Verso model.
EdCT commented:
December 20, 2013, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by irianjim View Post
To be honest, I think I would be a bit bothered if my E92 had come with glass made in China and I could read that in the glass. It is supposed to be a European car. I know that things are sourced from everywhere, but to have that so obvious would be a bit of a bother to me. I don't mind buying things from China when I know what I am getting but I don't want to pay European or American prices for Chinese products. When I furnished my house I wouldn't buy the name brand American furniture as they had outsourced construction to China but kept the prices formerly charged for the products built by craftsmen in North Carolina. They may be able to sell it - just not to me. Similarly, I won't pay the premium prices for European cars in the future if they outsource a significant part of the car to China or other parts of Asia. If I want an Asian car, I'll buy a Toyota.
What exactly is the difference between glass made for BMW in China, or elsewhere.

Do you know?
Dippydo commented:
December 20, 2013, 3:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Why? BMW already operates an engine manufacturing plant in Shenyang that's among the newest and most advanced facilities of its kind within BMW Group.

And while the term 'outsource' technically applies here - BMW has a joint venture with Brilliance Automotive - that's just intrinsic to the automotive industry in China. It's different from a full outsourcing arrangement, e.g., the one in which Toyota purchases BMW diesel engines for use in its Verso model.

Those engines stay in China thankfully. I have been doing business long enough in China to know what they can and can't do successfully. Just as certain parts of China are better than others for certain products, but when it comes to things such as engines and full production of something as complicated as a car, they are not there yet. I don't care how advanced the article or BMW claims the facility is because that is just a press release to bolster BMW's image among its competitors and peers. We always boast as well how great our factories are to the public but behind the scenes we created a whole new dictionary of cuss words just for them.
EdCT commented:
December 20, 2013, 3:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Not everyone believes the Fuyao Glass Industry Group Company is a respected company. I'd prefer Saint Gobain Sekurit or PPG/PGW, even Pilkington, over Vitro, Safelite, Shunfa, or Fuyao.
Not everyone thinks a lot of things, but that's not how rational and debatable arguments are made.

Your contention is glass made in China, specifically glass made by Fuyao is somehow inferior to glass made in other parts of the world.

Unfortunately for you, you haven't produced one bit of evidence to back up your claim, even your anecdotal side is failing you and relying on how you "feel" ...

I'll give you credit though, you like to argue, even when you don't have an argument.
minn19 commented:
December 20, 2013, 3:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
There are way too many questions in life that far exceed the capacity to do a controlled study. Even in medicine alone, there are too many questions to answer. For example, the question of elderly women getting mammograms is not settled as far as which is best, what is cheaper, is it ok to have some people die.

The result of not enough time, too much work means we have to make assumptions. One assumption is that a US citizen gets security clearance where a foreigner could be very capable and not leak secrets. Another assumption is to trust entities. For example, there is not a policeman or a federal inspector inspecting every pill. We just trust them.

It's a matter of trust. Do you trust a product made in a country that has seen huge ethical lapses? I am very wary of things made in the People's Republic of China. It is not racism because I don't have doubts about things made by Chinese people in the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Singapore.

There is a bad track record. Having too little fluoride in toothpaste may be sloppy but adding poison is downright evil. So is adding poison to baby formula in order to fool the tests that measure protein levels. Poison in dog treats is yet another example.

BMWs costs more. I would expect better design and better quality.
I don't doubt that those things happened in China, but we are not talking about those things. We are talking about a specific product made by a specific company. I have to believe it is considerably easier to test auto glass than a what a new drug will do to the human body.

You have no proof to support your claim that the glass is dangerous. There is proof that the glass functions well and is not dangerous, at least as of now. There have been a couple threads on different forums about F30's being involved in some nasty accidents and it looks like the owners walked away fairly unscathed. Couple that anecdotal evidence with no notes from crash testing or other sources and I have to believe it is a fairly safe, adequate product.

Getting back to being sickened and injured from other things... I would bet a large sum of money that you are much more likely to be sickened/injured from a tainted hamburger than the glass in your BMW. But, as this is not China, you are free to worry about whatever you want, it will just be under surveillance now .
minn19 commented:
December 20, 2013, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdCT View Post
Not everyone thinks a lot of things, but that's not how rational and debatable arguments are made.

Your contention is glass made in China, specifically glass made by Fuyao is somehow inferior to glass made in other parts of the world.

Unfortunately for you, you haven't produced one bit of evidence to back up your claim, even your anecdotal side is failing you and relying on how you "feel" ...

I'll give you credit though, you like to argue, even when you don't have an argument.
+1 Sorry to basically parrot your post, I was typing as you posted.
Mark K commented:
December 20, 2013, 4:12 pm

Sometimes, it is just a question of principle. Sometimes "because it is more covenient" or "because it is cheaper" get trumped by "it is not a right thing to do".

Everybody seems to like "global economy" BS (especially when it means a lot of cheap sh*it) but very few seem to realize that there is no parallel "global sociology". Let's say that country A propagates violence towards women and gang rape is everyday occurence and a "right" protected by their constitution - just for a strong theoretical example. I would not purchase something made there no matter how convenient, well-made and cheap it might be. If they want to be part of global economy, they better align with their sociology as well.

It seems to me that all this is ridiculed because it is much easier to buy convenient and cheap instead of taking time and effort to be informed and discriminating customer on some other basis than the price only. Only in my opinion, of course.

I do discriminate on more than price basis and I'm not ashamed that I do so.

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EdCT commented:
December 20, 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
+1 Sorry to basically parrot your post, I was typing as you posted.
No problem, I like it when people step up
gkr778 commented:
December 22, 2013, 8:02 pm

More F30 suppliers:

Elk commented:
December 23, 2013, 8:56 pm

Great diagram.
terrystu commented:
December 24, 2013, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Tesla fires? The Tesla is 3x LESS likely to catch fire than most any other car on the road. Do you believe everything you see on the news?

The first year of the Ferrari 458 Italia resulted in more fires than the Tesla which sold many more than the Ferrari.
Patently untrue, James.

If the percentage of Teslas that caught fire was applied to Toyota, there would have been well over 1,000 Toyota fires. Know how many there actually were, other than those caused by traffic accidents? None.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 24, 2013, 11:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrystu View Post
Patently untrue, James.

If the percentage of Teslas that caught fire was applied to Toyota, there would have been well over 1,000 Toyota fires. Know how many there actually were, other than those caused by traffic accidents? None.
They had accidents with impacts causing fires. Its not news worthy.

I read of 2-3 335d's that caught fire out of only 9000 sold. Not news worthy.

A Tesla is not sold on Camry scale and only compares to luxury sales more in line with the 5-7 series and e-S class. Lastly you have no data on Camry fires. I promise its not 0.
terrystu commented:
December 24, 2013, 12:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
They had accidents with impacts causing fires. Its not news worthy.

I read of 2-3 335d's that caught fire out of only 9000 sold. Not news worthy.

A Tesla is not sold on Camry scale and only compares to luxury sales more in line with the 5-7 series and e-S class. Lastly you have no data on Camry fires. I promise its not 0.
Luxury - compact - mid-sized - completely irrelevant. We are talking about vehicle fires.

Of course you can say there is no data on Camry fires. That would be because none have been reported. That would be the same as saying there is no data on three-headed space aliens being spotted. I won't make the promise that its not 0.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
December 24, 2013, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrystu View Post
Luxury - compact - mid-sized - completely irrelevant. We are talking about vehicle fires.

Of course you can say there is no data on Camry fires. That would be because none have been reported. That would be the same as saying there is no data on three-headed space aliens being spotted. I won't make the promise that its not 0.
This is going nowhere. Moving on.
Michael Schott commented:
December 24, 2013, 3:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrystu View Post
Luxury - compact - mid-sized - completely irrelevant. We are talking about vehicle fires.

Of course you can say there is no data on Camry fires. That would be because none have been reported. That would be the same as saying there is no data on three-headed space aliens being spotted. I won't make the promise that its not 0.
If none have been reported that of course does not mean that they haven't happened. It's newsworthy when a Tesla catches fire, it's not when a car that has average technology and sells over 300K/year does the same.
minn19 commented:
December 24, 2013, 3:30 pm

This is mainly for older cars, but Toyota has had issues with this as well.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...r-fire-hazard/
Elk commented:
December 24, 2013, 7:06 pm

BMW fires are much better quality.
Nordique commented:
December 24, 2013, 7:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
BMW fires are much better quality.
Indeed, at a minimum, premium or even luxury level fires! Merry Christmas to all F30 bimmerheads!