Suspension Feeling Loss - Should we Petition

by Bimmerfest.com Member - furby076 on September 1, 2013, 12:24 pm
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best

PETITION

Petition

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bmw-suspension.html


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329 responses to Suspension Feeling Loss - Should we Petition

Pat_X5 commented:
September 1, 2013, 12:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best
I am in - I currently have an E90 LCI 2011 335d and feel the same!

I test drove a F30 328d (I love diesel) and found it soft, disconnected, and swaying around turns. It doesn't have that solid turn into torque feel anymore. The steering is awful - muted and disconnected from the road.

I then test drove a X1 s28i and it was more awful - no feel no connection no nothing - felt like a 80's Caddy or your grandpa's Buick....
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 1, 2013, 12:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.
While the suspension does for sure feel softer than it should, especially on the xDrive models, its a long way from feeling "dangerous."

It's also a long way from feeling like an Altima (which I had the displeasure of driving as a rental just last week).

I agree that there are some concerns about the nuances of the F30, but it still remains an excellent car, and remains significantly better than most of its competition.


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PK2348 commented:
September 1, 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_X5 View Post
I am in - I currently have an E90 LCI 2011 335d and feel the same!

I test drove a F30 328d (I love diesel) and found it soft, disconnected, and swaying around turns. It doesn't have that solid turn into torque feel anymore. The steering is awful - muted and disconnected from the road.

I then test drove a X1 s28i and it was more awful - no feel no connection no nothing - felt like a 80's Caddy or your grandpa's Buick....
Try X1 with xdrive. I believe those still get HPS. I drove one at UDE, really liked it as compared to F30
floydarogers commented:
September 1, 2013, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
...
So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).
It didn't take a petition to get the older steering rack back into the 2001 E46. Doubt one is needed (or will help) here, either.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 1, 2013, 3:04 pm

Where is CA? I haven't seen him on here on a very long time.
AJPITT commented:
September 1, 2013, 4:05 pm

Key words: those who owned an e90 and now own an f30. In BMW's eyes, we are ok with the softer suspension if we bought the car and they've made their money. Why would they bother going back to a stiffer suspension when we "approved" of the current suspension by purchasing the car? So they can hear us complain about it being too stiff? I get the main point of the OP but come on....


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justinnum1 commented:
September 1, 2013, 4:08 pm

I remember reading the same thing, E90 owners saying their car was to soft compared to the E46.
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I remember reading the same thing, E90 owners saying their car was to soft compared to the E46.
Anyone who thought that an E9x with sport suspension and Bridgestone RFTs was soft is more likely to have previously owned a Conestoga Wagon than an E46.


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 1, 2013, 4:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Anyone who thought that an E9x with sport suspension and Bridgestone RFTs was soft is more likely to have previously owned a Conestoga Wagon than an E46.


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There he is.
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 4:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPITT View Post
Key words: those who owned an e90 and now own an f30. In BMW's eyes, we are ok with the softer suspension if we bought the car and they've made their money. Why would they bother going back to a stiffer suspension when we "approved" of the current suspension by purchasing the car? So they can hear us complain about it being too stiff? I get the main point of the OP but come on....


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A properly tuned suspension does not have to be overly stiff to handle well or to minimize body roll. A properly tuned suspension should be firm but not harsh, should not have excessive body lean when cornering and should be able to handle poor road surfaces without becoming unsettled.

It seems that BMW over compensated for the overly harsh E9x sports suspension (which as i discovered could be easily fixed) and went too far on the other direction with the F30. I suspect that the F30 body roll issue could also be easily fixed without giving up the good qualities of the suspension.

Good handling and decent ride quality do not have to be mutually exclusive.

IMO if you spent your hard earned money on a car and have issues you should make your voice heard.

CA


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 1, 2013, 5:19 pm

The e9x M3 was perfect in terms of everyday drivability and a nice firm suspension. EDC makes it even better, I think. You get the best of both worlds.
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 5:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The e9x M3 was perfect in terms of everyday drivability and a nice firm suspension. EDC makes it even better, I think. You get the best of both worlds.
Exactly

A good suspension is firm, but not overly harsh, and has enough compliance to keep the contact patches on the road (they are called contact patches for a reason) and not upset the car when road imperfections were encountered. The E9x sport suspension would bottom out, damage tires and rims (Pothole Explosions) and bounce around on road imperfections. This had apparently been corrected on the F30 which is from all indications an excellent car. Now BMW needs to address the body roll issue which I suspect is not a big deal to correct. Koni FSD dampers will probably do it if and when they become available for the F30. it will be interesting to see of the 4 series has the same issue.

CA


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Michael Schott commented:
September 1, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Anyone who thought that an E9x with sport suspension and Bridgestone RFTs was soft is more likely to have previously owned a Conestoga Wagon than an E46.


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You left out the part about living in the NYC which has moon craters in their roads.
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 6:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You left out the part about living in the NYC which has moon craters in their roads.
With the Koni FSDs and the Conti DWS tires that is no longer an issue. Also the "Pothole Explosions" were not exclusively a NYC issue as I encountered them on interstates, in Vermont and in upstate New York.

CA


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ep_83 commented:
September 1, 2013, 7:05 pm

If you don't like the way the F30 feels instead of signing a petition why don't you..... Buy something else? I promise there's life outside BMW lol. If you absolutely positively HAVE to drive a BMW check out the 1/2 series. I think BMW did a great job with the F30, but if you don't like the way it feels there are plenty of options out there.
mr_clueless commented:
September 1, 2013, 7:26 pm

I don't think a petition is necessary. If every F30 owner that has a concern with the suspensions writes a letter to BMW (even via its website), I'm sure they will take notice.
Capobranco commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ep_83 View Post
If you don't like the way the F30 feels instead of signing a petition why don't you..... Buy something else? I promise there's life outside BMW lol. If you absolutely positively HAVE to drive a BMW check out the 1/2 series. I think BMW did a great job with the F30, but if you don't like the way it feels there are plenty of options out there.
Exactly - life's short - go drive something that makes you happy....

I have driven my 328xi Sport-line daily driver almost 2K miles since purchase. The car would not be my choice to autocross, but it was my first choice as an excellent means of spirited transportation. I appreciate the lissome performance and very balanced compliant suspension. On the same road that destroyed no less than 3 tires and rims on my former e93 335i MT - my 328xi negotiates confidently, safely, and quickly. I often drive from DC to West Virginia and I can confront challenging conditions. Through fast tight sweepers and switch-backs the car just sticks.....really quite competent, if not confidence inspiring. In the real world, my 328xi is fast, compliant, comfy, economical, and fun - I am impressed.

BTW the only serious criticism of the car I have are the less than confidence inspiring standard lights but I readily remedied that situation with Phillips X-treme Power H7s for low/high beams and Osram H-7 all-season fogs.
Michael Schott commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
With the Koni FSDs and the Conti DWS tires that is no longer an issue. Also the "Pothole Explosions" were not exclusively a NYC issue as I encountered them on interstates, in Vermont and in upstate New York.

CA


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I don't want to rehash this too much as we've been on this topic at least since I joined the board almost 6 years ago but there's no doubt on bad roads the E90 with Sport suspension is too stiff. The changes made to the suspension in 2011 have made this less of a problem and cars without ZSP ride pretty well. I have a 2011 E90 with 17" wheels and base suspension and the car handles great and for the most part rides well. It's busy over many bumps but I don't have the explosions I experienced in my 2008 with 16" wheels on sharp edged holes.

However the F30 Sport Line is far more composed and sophisticated. It rolls a bit more but has plenty of grip and is neutral. I'd say it's more grown up but less visceral. F30's with xDrive are far too soft IMO and that's a shame but there's no doubt that this means nothing to the average 3 series shopper while many complained of the E90 ride.

Edit: Regarding Furby's idea. Waste of time. BMW doesn't care and the sales volume says they are right.
pointandgo commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
I don't think a petition is necessary. If every F30 owner that has a concern with the suspensions writes a letter to BMW (even via its website), I'm sure they will take notice.
I'm sure they'll jump on it...as they have with the RF tire issue which is a contributing factor to their low JD Powers satisfaction survey results (IQS Survey). Munich doesn't care...they march to the tune of their own drummer...owner opinions be damned.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Exactly - life's short - go drive something that makes you happy....

I have driven my 328xi Sport-line daily driver almost 2K miles since purchase. The car would not be my choice to autocross, but it was my first choice as an excellent means of spirited transportation. I appreciate the lissome performance and very balanced compliant suspension. On the same road that destroyed no less than 3 tires and rims on my former e93 335i MT - my 328xi negotiates confidently, safely, and quickly. I often drive from DC to West Virginia and I can confront challenging conditions. Through fast tight sweepers and switch-backs the car just sticks.....really quite competent, if not confidence inspiring. In the real world, my 328xi is fast, compliant, comfy, economical, and fun - I am impressed.

BTW the only serious criticism of the car I have are the less than confidence inspiring standard lights but I readily remedied that situation with Phillips X-treme Power H7s for low/high beams and Osram H-7 all-season fogs.
Are these what you used for the headlight bulbs?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILIPS-H7-X...556b68&vxp=mtr
Crzy'boutBimmer commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best
I think it's just an incorrect choice of words, but altima is nowhere near an f30 even in comfort mode - I say that as altima is my other car. I also have dhp and xdrive. The only difference and that too very minor would be my tires - I have regular summer performance tires, not runflats.

But, im in for the petition for suspension. Its already too good, if it can be better, im in!


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captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:51 pm

I agree that for many if not most buyers if body roll is the price to pay for the elimination of the pothole explosion, bent rim and shredded tire issue it is a valid trade off.

My point has always been that it is easily possible to have the best of both worlds and there does not need to be a trade off. I am confident that reducing body roll would not be difficult and that as long as the ride and handling aren't compromised and are possibly even improved nobody is going to complain.

I don't agree that BMW doesn't care. I have spoken to people from BMW North America and have attended events where they solicited owners opinions of their cars. They were very aware of the fact that many people had issues with the harsh E9x suspension.

As I stated earlier the F30 is from all indications an excellent car and in many ways better than the E90. That does not mean that there is no room for improvement or that owners should not express their concerns to BMW.

CA


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pointandgo commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't want to rehash this too much as we've been on this topic at least since I joined the board almost 6 years ago but there's no doubt on bad roads the E90 with Sport suspension is too stiff. The changes made to the suspension in 2011 have made this less of a problem and cars without ZSP ride pretty well. I have a 2011 E90 with 17" wheels and base suspension and the car handles great and for the most part rides well. It's busy over many bumps but I don't have the explosions I experienced in my 2008 with 16" wheels on sharp edged holes.

However the F30 Sport Line is far more composed and sophisticated. It rolls a bit more but has plenty of grip and is neutral. I'd say it's more grown up but less visceral. F30's with xDrive are far too soft IMO and that's a shame but there's no doubt that this means nothing to the average 3 series shopper while many complained of the E90 ride.

Edit: Regarding Furby's idea. Waste of time. BMW doesn't care and the sales volume says they are right.
The sales figures indicate that they are gaining "new" customers...that's the result of BMW's marketing efforts. They certainly can't grow with an ageing (and "traditional, savvy" customer base).

Newer customers (1st time buyers) don't have a clue about what the "BMW driving experience" used to be. They are not drivers...but status seekers. They seek comfort, electronic options that will "keep them connected" to their world. Power and performance are rapidly becoming obsolete requirements and BMW knows this.

BMW will continue to throw their enthusiast owner base a few "bones," marvelous cars at a huge price, but these cars will be a fraction of BMW's sales.

BMW, Munich knows very well that their most loyal, enthusiast base will all be dead in the next decade or so. Then they can offer a FWD M3 and nobody will notice!

The "Ultimate driving machine" is slowly sinking into the sunset IMO.
sunny5280 commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't want to rehash this too much as we've been on this topic at least since I joined the board almost 6 years ago but there's no doubt on bad roads the E90 with Sport suspension is too stiff. The changes made to the suspension in 2011 have made this less of a problem and cars without ZSP ride pretty well. I have a 2011 E90 with 17" wheels and base suspension and the car handles great and for the most part rides well. It's busy over many bumps but I don't have the explosions I experienced in my 2008 with 16" wheels on sharp edged holes.

However the F30 Sport Line is far more composed and sophisticated. It rolls a bit more but has plenty of grip and is neutral. I'd say it's more grown up but less visceral. F30's with xDrive are far too soft IMO and that's a shame but there's no doubt that this means nothing to the average 3 series shopper while many complained of the E90 ride.

Edit: Regarding Furby's idea. Waste of time. BMW doesn't care and the sales volume says they are right.
My 2006 330xi suffered from the "pot hole explosion". It was the one thing I disliked about the vehicle. It was inexcusable and no one should be apologizing for it.
skier commented:
September 1, 2013, 8:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I remember reading the same thing, E90 owners saying their car was to soft compared to the E46.
Yep, it happens every time a new generation comes out. E30 owners complained about E36, then E26 about E46, so the saga continues. Almost dangeorous? Rubbish. Bleh
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:06 pm

I once read a quote from Bill Gates that went something like "It is hard to convince a company that is making a lot of money that they are in a crisis"

Now I don't by any stretch believe that BMW is in crisis but the so called "Status" market can be very fickle as the rise and fall of brands like Lincoln, Cadillac and even Lexus has demonstrated.

I think BMW is very interested in upholding their image as the luxury brand with the best driving dynamics and their support of racing and of tracks like Lime Rock backs this view up.

BMW has traditionally built what I would characterize as GT cars rather than hard core sports cars. GT cars combine comfort and a certain amount of practicality and luxury with good driving dynamics. BMW has excelled at that for years.

I suspect that the LCI F30 will address the body roll issue. Since there is no advantage to body roll and it can be easily corrected I don't see why they would not.

CA




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pointandgo commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I once read a quote from Bill Gates that went something like "It is hard to convince a company that is making a lot of money that they are in a crisis"

Now I don't by any stretch believe that BMW is in crisis but the so called "Status" market can be very fickle as the rise and fall of brands like Lincoln, Cadillac and even Lexus has demonstrated.

I think BMW is very interested in upholding their image as the luxury brand with the best driving dynamics and their support of racing and of tracks like Lime Rock backs this view up.

BMW has traditionally built what I would characterize as GT cars rather than hard core sports cars. GT cars combine comfort and a certain amount of practicality and luxury with good driving dynamics.

I suspect that the LCI F30 will address the body roll issue. Since there is no advantage to body roll and it can be easily corrected I don't see why they would not.

CA

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I wouldn't say there's been any "fall" of the Lexus brand. They aimed at their "niche" market and did quite well...continuing to chip away at the German brands. Cadillac? Even I'm surprised at their success with their high performance entries (if they'd only get rid of that ugly emblem/logo)...but I'm shocked that two of my BMW CCA driving instructor friends now own one (at least one M5 was sacrificed). Go figure.

Lincoln?
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I wouldn't say there's been any "fall" of the Lexus brand. They aimed at their "niche" market and did quite well...continuing to chip away at the German brands. Cadillac? Even I'm surprised at their success with their high performance entries (if they'd only get rid of that ugly emblem/logo)...but I'm shocked that two of my BMW CCA driving instructor friends now own one (at least one M5 was sacrificed). Go figure.

Lincoln?
Lexus was the best selling luxury brand for a number of years and they took that title from Cadillac who held it for a very long time. Cadillac is now making a strong comeback but are fighting hard to regain their reputation as a quality brand.

They average age of BMW drivers has gone up over the last few years. Of course the average age of the population had also gone up. Ideally a brand wants to attract young buyers and keep them as they get older and more affluent and move up the price ladder

I remember talking to a Toyota salesman in the late 70s. He had just returned from sales training and was saying that Toyota was planning on releasing a car that competed with Mercedes so that when the present buyers reached their peak earning years they would stick with the brand.
I thought it was just marketing hype but lot and behold the Lexus LS 400 was released and sent the Germans scrambling.

Expanding a market base is never a bad idea but losing the market segment that built the brand in the process had not traditionally proven to be a great strategy.

That being said I don't really feel that BMW had seriously lost its direction. They have matured along with the rest of the market and will likely remedy the driving dynamics issues that some of their traditional customers are less than happy with,

CA

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Capobranco commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Are these what you used for the headlight bulbs?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILIPS-H7-X...556b68&vxp=mtr
Not positive but this is what and where I bought them - they work great! BTW - Sorry I bought the last 2 pairs......

http://store.candlepower.com/bfcopotphxtp.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
...... That does not mean that there is no room for improvement or that owners should not express their concerns to BMW.

CA


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Of course BMW cares and there is always room for improvement - its nonsensical to think otherwise, however, regarding a petition, one really needs to recognize that an enthusiast should have some level of awareness, and consequently, needs to take some measure of personal responsibility. I assume buyers of F30s on this forum test drove the car before buying it. After test driving my 328xi, I understood it was not equivalent to my M3 in terms of handling but I did not want another M3. I wanted a daily driver that was fast economical comfy and compliant - in short, a car that will allow me to cover a lot of ground in a safe efficient manner. So far - my 328xi Sport-line is proving ideal.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Not positive but this is what and where I bought them - they work great! BTW - Sorry I bought the last 2 pairs......

http://store.candlepower.com/bfcopotphxtp.html



Thanks, found 'em on eBay for $40 shipped for the pair. The stock halogens are terrible, worse than the '00 lights on my '98.
Capobranco commented:
September 1, 2013, 9:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Thanks, found 'em on eBay for $40 shipped for the pair. The stock halogens are terrible, worse than the '00 lights on my '98.
I don't want to hijack this thread but I agree....I've owned 8 BMWs and these are the worst lights ever....be sure to purchase for both high and low beams - and fogs. The three pairs in tandem are literally like night and day compared to the oems.

Perhaps we should start a petition requesting BMW to make xenon lights standard ....I never dreamed that a car in 2013 would come with such substandard lights especially a BMW.
pointandgo commented:
September 1, 2013, 10:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Lexus was the best selling luxury brand for a number of years and they took that title from Cadillac who held it for a very long time. Cadillac is now making a strong comeback but are fighting hard to regain their reputation as a quality brand.

They average age of BMW drivers has gone up over the last few years. Of course the average age of the population had also gone up. Ideally a brand wants to attract young buyers and keep them as they get older and more affluent and move up the price ladder

I remember talking to a Toyota salesman in the late 70s. He had just returned from sales training and was saying that Toyota was planning on releasing a car that competed with Mercedes so that when the present buyers reached their peak earning years they would stick with the brand.
I thought it was just marketing hype but lot and behold the Lexus LS 400 was released and sent the Germans scrambling.

Expanding a market base is never a bad idea but losing the market segment that built the brand in the process had not traditionally proven to be a great strategy.

That being said I don't really feel that BMW had seriously lost its direction. They have matured along with the rest of the market and will likely remedy the driving dynamics issues that some of their traditional customers are less than happy with,

CA

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We'll see. The F30 "steering feel" has been thoroughly trashed by the automotive press (and me), What were they thinking of?...as if Munich threw away their "legacy" manual.

What next? A front wheel drive M3?
captainaudio commented:
September 1, 2013, 10:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
We'll see. The F30 "steering feel" has been thoroughly trashed by the automotive press (and me), What were they thinking of?...as if Munich threw away their "legacy" manual.

What next? A front wheel drive M3?
Steering feel is what sold me on BMW and made me determined to keep the 335i and try to work out the issues with the overly harsh suspension (which I did).

The 750 also has excellent steering and driving dynamics that make it feel like a much smaller and lighter car.

I'll test drive a 435 and an M4 as soon as they become available.

CA


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GaryW commented:
September 1, 2013, 11:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Exactly - life's short - go drive something that makes you happy....

I have driven my 328xi Sport-line daily driver almost 2K miles since purchase. The car would not be my choice to autocross, but it was my first choice as an excellent means of spirited transportation. I appreciate the lissome performance and very balanced compliant suspension. On the same road that destroyed no less than 3 tires and rims on my former e93 335i MT - my 328xi negotiates confidently, safely, and quickly. I often drive from DC to West Virginia and I can confront challenging conditions. Through fast tight sweepers and switch-backs the car just sticks.....really quite competent, if not confidence inspiring. In the real world, my 328xi is fast, compliant, comfy, economical, and fun - I am impressed.

BTW the only serious criticism of the car I have are the less than confidence inspiring standard lights but I readily remedied that situation with Phillips X-treme Power H7s for low/high beams and Osram H-7 all-season fogs.
Totally agree .. I had the E90 .. and now F30 Sports Line which I love (just done 17,000 kilometers) as the daily commute ... Just like you .. changed the H7s for new Philips X-Tremes which have placated my only real concern ...

Gary W.,
WillInDenver commented:
September 1, 2013, 11:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_X5 View Post
I then test drove a X1 s28i and it was more awful - no feel no connection no nothing - felt like a 80's Caddy or your grandpa's Buick....
The X1 sits on an E90 chassis.
Pat_X5 commented:
September 1, 2013, 11:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
The X1 sits on an E90 chassis.
That explains how the feel of the X1 mimics an E90.

But can you tell me why an X1 with the X Drive in the 6 cylinder flavor has great steering compared to the awful s28i electric steering ???

Just today the 335x GT caught my eye and I love the exterior and interior - it might be my 335d replacement but the steering was awful - felt like a s28i light electric steering w/ soft suspension.....

What happened ?

Did electric steering take over all new BMWs and I am now asking what do I do to regain the classic BMW hydraulic, feedback giving, torque steering feel ????
Pat_X5 commented:
September 1, 2013, 11:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Steering feel is what sold me on BMW and made me determined to keep the 335i and try to work out the issues with the overly harsh suspension (which I did).

The 750 also has excellent steering and driving dynamics that make it feel like a much smaller and lighter car.

I'll test drive a 435 and an M4 as soon as they become available.

CA


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
CA: what new BMW models are left with the E90 type steering and suspension ???

I have test drove the X1 and 328 + 335 GT and ruled them out because they are electric steering and soft cushy rides...
LarryboysUDM commented:
September 2, 2013, 12:06 am

As the saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the oil".
Each one of us, whatever our concern is, need to tell BMW customer service that we are not happy with one or more of the following:
1. Suspension--no feeling
2. Steering--too light, not very responsive
3. 35% of 3 series parts made from outside Germany
4. High price of base and options
5. Quality issues--drivetrain malfunction, iDrive reboot, ASS, etc.
6. More standard items--halogen lights, alarm, sunroof, etc.
7. Availability of more MT on the lot
boltjaM3s commented:
September 2, 2013, 12:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best
BMW has already addressed this. Regrettably, you chose the softest variant of the F30 suspension:

1. M-Performance Suspension
2. Sport Line Suspension
3. Adaptive M-Suspension
4. Comfort Supension
5. XDrive Suspension

The XDrive Suspension without DHP is the softest and loosest of the bunch. In order for BMW to offer the 3 Series to a very wide audience, people expecting to pay $30,000 to $60,000 for the same car, BMW had to allow for a very wide assortment of options and packages.

It is not a 'petition' that is needed. Rather an understanding that when you take a car designed to be a best-in-class luxury sport sedan at $50,000 and strip it down you're going to lose a lot. In the old days, the tight suspension and legendary handling were standard equipment; now you have to pay for it. Strip the GPS and the leather, no worries. Strip the Sport line, strip the DHP, don't opt for the M-Performance, it's on the buyer, not the manufacturer.

BJ
JNLBC commented:
September 2, 2013, 1:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best
I sent a request to EAS for Bilsteins. That should fix my problem. LOL
Mark K commented:
September 2, 2013, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
... I understood it was not equivalent to my M3 in terms of handling but I did not want another M3. I wanted a daily driver that was fast economical comfy and compliant - in short, a car that will allow me to cover a lot of ground in a safe efficient manner. So far - my 328xi Sport-line is proving ideal.
Yep. Same here. Except I bought 118d BMWNA Special Edition (see signature). That Golf TDI MT is everything my E92 N55 ZSP MT isn't for everyday driving and I'm hugely enjoying it. Your point is?

By the way, Golf certainly has better steering. At least I can feel understeer in time to do something about it. With normal suspension, with all-season tires.
Elk commented:
September 2, 2013, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
. . .
Each one of us, whatever our concern is, need to tell BMW customer service that we are not happy with one or more of the following:
. . .
With a list this extensive, BMW will just wonder why you bought one of their cars.

(BTW, most of us are sophisticated enough to appreciate global manufacturing and are insufficiently xenophobic to demand all German parts.)
boltjaM3s commented:
September 2, 2013, 9:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
With a list this extensive, BMW will just wonder why you bought one of their cars.

(BTW, most of us are sophisticated enough to appreciate global manufacturing and are insufficiently xenophobic to demand all German parts.)
The F30 is not an enthusiasts car, period. The sooner the masses come to that eventual conclusion, the better.

For those who simply can't let go, soon there will be a 1 Series sedan and everything will make sense.

BJ
WillInDenver commented:
September 2, 2013, 10:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_X5 View Post
That explains how the feel of the X1 mimics an E90.

But can you tell me why an X1 with the X Drive in the 6 cylinder flavor has great steering compared to the awful s28i electric steering ???
I can. Apparently the electronic steering mechanics occupy the same space inside the engine bay that some of the xDrive equipment uses, so xDrive cars still use hydraulic steering. For now, anyway.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I can. Apparently the electronic steering mechanics occupy the same space inside the engine bay that some of the xDrive equipment uses, so xDrive cars still use hydraulic steering. For now, anyway.
True on the X1, not on the F30.
cblandin commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:36 am

Pretty soon, if not already, it won't matter. Many BMW owners have never driven an E46/E39, much less an E36 or an E30. As time progresses, that will only get to be more so. As a result, the "points of reference" to those kings of ride/handling balance will become irrelevant. Heck, last year we sold our '01 530i for a Volvo XC60 and '02 M5 for a Chevy Volt. The steering feedback, ride and handling all took a nose dive with the new cars as compared to the old, BUT slowly I've forgotten a bit as time progresses and the delta bothers me less. My son did come home from college last week and I got to drive his E36 M3 around and was reminded...I was also reminded of how crude that car is compared even to the E39s (much less our new 2012 models).

The only thing that will alter BMW's path is sales figures, and for this item to become relevant, one of their competition (Audi/Lexus/Mercedes/Cadillac/Volvo/etc/) will have to suddenly get it (and everything else) "right" to begin to sway the enthusiast community (which, in turn, can slooooowly sway general public opinion). As of today, it doesn't appear anyone else as done that. Audi, with their Quattro obsession often feels FWD biased...Volvo is similar and less polished overall. Cadillac looks to have nailed the handling with the ATS, but appears to have fallen short everywhere else - a one trick pony. The latest IS350 is getting good reviews and they'll no doubt sell a ton, but the styling is polarizing and there is still an element of basic Toyota in those cars (always has been, and probably always will be). Mercedes SHOULD be the likely contender, but for whatever reason they don't seem to hit the mark in any one area. That leaves BMW. Faltering in this area? Sure. More right than wrong though? It appears so. Anyone else doing any better? Not that I can tell.
av98 commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best
Good luck with that! Here's to hoping an F30 ZHP/335is package is in the works for the last 3-5 years of life for the F30.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Capobranco commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The F30 is not an enthusiasts car, period. The sooner the masses come to that eventual conclusion, the better.


BJ
Hyperbole - please ignore

I've been emancipated from the masses.
RobertaZ commented:
September 2, 2013, 3:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Anyone who thought that an E9x with sport suspension and Bridgestone RFTs was soft is more likely to have previously owned a Conestoga Wagon than an E46.
My E90 with SS was awesome to drive. My F30 with optional 704 SS (it's not!) is still way too soft for me. I'm looking for opinions on H&R springs on F30s, if anyone can help out.

Roberta
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 2, 2013, 3:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
My E90 with SS was awesome to drive. My F30 with optional 704 SS (it's not!) is still way too soft for me. I'm looking for opinions on H&R springs on F30s, if anyone can help out.

Roberta
I made a thread about my H&R swap.
Andy6027 commented:
September 2, 2013, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Perhaps we should start a petition requesting BMW to make xenon lights standard ....I never dreamed that a car in 2013 would come with such substandard lights especially a BMW.
I feel fortunate that xenon lights come standard here in Canada. Hopefully they will follow suit in the US.
pointandgo commented:
September 2, 2013, 10:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Lexus was the best selling luxury brand for a number of years and they took that title from Cadillac who held it for a very long time. Cadillac is now making a strong comeback but are fighting hard to regain their reputation as a quality brand.

They average age of BMW drivers has gone up over the last few years. Of course the average age of the population had also gone up. Ideally a brand wants to attract young buyers and keep them as they get older and more affluent and move up the price ladder

I remember talking to a Toyota salesman in the late 70s. He had just returned from sales training and was saying that Toyota was planning on releasing a car that competed with Mercedes so that when the present buyers reached their peak earning years they would stick with the brand.
I thought it was just marketing hype but lot and behold the Lexus LS 400 was released and sent the Germans scrambling.

Expanding a market base is never a bad idea but losing the market segment that built the brand in the process had not traditionally proven to be a great strategy.

That being said I don't really feel that BMW had seriously lost its direction. They have matured along with the rest of the market and will likely remedy the driving dynamics issues that some of their traditional customers are less than happy with,

CA

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I've recently retired as a Lexus supplier. I understand their quality standards and customer satisfaction dedication; nobody comes close.

In the early days when they were trying to establish themselves in the U.S., they would actually send "representatives" to the car owner's home to retrieve the car for any "complaints." A very typical Japanese approach. The repaired car would be delivered back to the owner with an "apology" as soon as possible. They don't do this anymore.

I had lunch many years ago with Lexus (Torrance, CA.) top quality assurance manager (he looked very weary) and he lamented how "expensive" uncompromising customer service was, but this wasn't a complaint. It was a comment about the Lexus committment.

A work associate of mine bought a 'high end' Lexus during this time (his wife's car) and she made a complaint about a "blemish" on the leather (seat) during a routine service stop (she was rather demanding). They replaced the entire seat...without any "debate or discussion" providing a loaner in the meantime.
m_tegey commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:52 pm

I apologize about any grammatical errors in advance. It's been a long day I was about to go to bed but I came across this thread and just had to respond.

As the former owner owner of a 2009 E90 328xi and a current owner of a 2013 F30 328xi I can tell you the the E90 and the F30 feel completely different, mostly for the better.

My E90 was a wonderful refined machine. It felt planted and confident in the corners, the brakes solid, the steering the perfect weight and consistent. However the E90 had its faults. I live in north east Ohio so I get my share of crappy roads with all of their bumps, cracks, and massive potholes. The problem with the E90 is that when you come across bumpy roads, every bump is heard as a solid thud though the car. Every pothole is met with unforgiving harshness that caused three off my wheels to bend.

My F30 on the other hand has the same solid feel through the corners, all be it with a bit more body roll than my E90 did, but it feels great none the less. The F30 feels more nimble and it should, it's significantly lighter! The F30 is much much much more forgiving over rough roads than its predecessor and feels that the luxury car that it should be. It's a nice feeling to not worry if I broke a suspension component every time it hit a bump. I love the increased horsepower and torque of the new turbo four banger.

All in all as an owner of both cars I can say I much prefer the F30 over the E90. There's room for improvement on the new car, but in my opinion it's a far superior product to the E90. Lastly I'd like to say to everybody that's been complaining about the F3X not living up to the E9X benchmark, you didn't have to purchase a F3X if you didn't like it. Nobody made you purchase a car you didn't like. You could have just as easily purchased the E9X of your dreams and saved a ton of money doing it too. Both cars are awesome, choose the one you want and enjoy it. Just one mans opinion.
pointandgo commented:
September 2, 2013, 11:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
I apologize about any grammatical errors in advance. It's been a long day I was about to go to bed but I came across this thread and just had to respond.

As the former owner owner of a 2009 E90 328xi and a current owner of a 2013 F30 328xi I can tell you the the E90 and the F30 feel completely different, mostly for the better.

My E90 was a wonderful refined machine. It felt planted and confident in the corners, the brakes solid, the steering the perfect weight and consistent. However the E90 had its faults. I live in north east Ohio so I get my share of crappy roads with all of their bumps, cracks, and massive potholes. The problem with the E90 is that when you come across bumpy roads, every bump is heard as a solid thud though the car. Every pothole is met with unforgiving harshness that caused three off my wheels to bend.

My F30 on the other hand has the same solid feel through the corners, all be it with a bit more body roll than my E90 did, but it feels great none the less. The F30 feels more nimble and it should, it's significantly lighter! The F30 is much much much more forgiving over rough roads than its predecessor and feels that the luxury car that it should be. It's a nice feeling to not worry if I broke a suspension component every time it hit a bump. I love the increased horsepower and torque of the new turbo four banger.

All in all as an owner of both cars I can say I much prefer the F30 over the E90. There's room for improvement on the new car, but in my opinion it's a far superior product to the E90. Lastly I'd like to say to everybody that's been complaining about the F3X not living up to the E9X benchmark, you didn't have to purchase a F3X if you didn't like it. Nobody made you purchase a car you didn't like. You could have just as easily purchased the E9X of your dreams and saved a ton of money doing it too. Both cars are awesome, choose the one you want and enjoy it. Just one mans opinion.
Just out of curiosity...where are the "areas for improvement" in your opinion? Don't be shy.

m_tegey commented:
September 3, 2013, 12:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Just out of curiosity...where are the "areas for improvement" in your opinion? Don't be shy.

I'd say that the ride height on the xDrive models needs to be addressed. The wheel gap is enormous and looks terrible. The standard "low rolling resistance tires" should be an option, not standard. While the "Eco" tires are quiet they just don't provide a ton of grip, which is great if you want to slide the car around, but is lousy if you truly want to be the most out if the car.
Capobranco commented:
September 3, 2013, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
.....

My E90 was a wonderful refined machine. It felt planted and confident in the corners, the brakes solid, the steering the perfect weight and consistent. However the E90 had its faults. I live in north east Ohio so I get my share of crappy roads with all of their bumps, cracks, and massive potholes. The problem with the E90 is that when you come across bumpy roads, every bump is heard as a solid thud though the car. Every pothole is met with unforgiving harshness that caused three off my wheels to bend.

My F30 on the other hand has the same solid feel through the corners, all be it with a bit more body roll than my E90 did, but it feels great none the less. The F30 feels more nimble and it should, it's significantly lighter! The F30 is much much much more forgiving over rough roads than its predecessor and feels that the luxury car that it should be. It's a nice feeling to not worry if I broke a suspension component every time it hit a bump. I love the increased horsepower and torque of the new turbo four banger.

All in all as an owner of both cars I can say I much prefer the F30 over the E90. There's room for improvement on the new car, but in my opinion it's a far superior product to the E90. Lastly I'd like to say to everybody that's been complaining about the F3X not living up to the E9X benchmark, you didn't have to purchase a F3X if you didn't like it. Nobody made you purchase a car you didn't like. You could have just as easily purchased the E9X of your dreams and saved a ton of money doing it too. Both cars are awesome, choose the one you want and enjoy it. Just one mans opinion.
+1 well said
pointandgo commented:
September 3, 2013, 12:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
I'd say that the ride height on the xDrive models needs to be addressed. The wheel gap is enormous and looks terrible. The standard "low rolling resistance tires" should be an option, not standard. While the "Eco" tires are quiet they just don't provide a ton of grip, which is great if you want to slide the car around, but is lousy if you truly want to be the most out if the car.
Noted, but I'm quite sure that "fuel economy" features are not "options" on our cars anymore as the EPA standards get more and more stringent. They are mandatory. You can always write to your Congressman.
NordicBob commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
My E90 with SS was awesome to drive. My F30 with optional 704 SS (it's not!) is still way too soft for me. I'm looking for opinions on H&R springs on F30s, if anyone can help out.

Roberta
What option is the "704 SS" for the F30 series? M-Sport suspension, DHP, etc? Has it been available since the beginning of the F30 run?

When you state that "(it's not!)", does that mean that you have it, or don't have it, but still way to soft? Please clarity. Thanks.
SteVTEC commented:
September 3, 2013, 8:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Noted, but I'm quite sure that "fuel economy" features are not "options" on our cars anymore as the EPA standards get more and more stringent. They are mandatory. You can always write to your Congressman.
They literally can't make them like they used to.

"Eco" tires for EPA rather than some tires that actually have some grip.
Turbo 4-banger for EPA rather than a sweet Inline-6.
Completely numb electric power steering for EPA rather than hydraulic with classic BMW road feel.

What they didn't have to do...

Brakes that have lost their edge and "bite", because Americans don't like brake dust.
Overly loose suspension, yes. Corners well on smooth pavement, but even my non-Sport E93 felt tighter and a lot more connected than the F30 328xi loaner I had for two days. You have to go all the way up to the M-Sport line or mod the standard cars just to get the good brakes? What?? They're still fun and engaging cars to drive, but are nothing like the old ones. About the only thing that I felt was an improvement was the 8-speed automatic, and the rear passenger space comparing F30 to E90.

A lot of what made a BMW a BMW to me is now either optional, or not even available at any price!!!

I'm glad I bought both of our Bimmers when I did. Had originally intended to buy the new F10 5er in 2011 but just couldn't connect with the car and bought the E93 and then E70 X5 "last of breed". I feared I wasn't going to like any of the newer BMWs, and having sampled pretty much all of them now except for the new X5 (not in loaner fleets yet) that's pretty much been true.

Sigh. Going to love and cherish our two below for as long as possible I think. Our two make me feel special when I drive them. The newer ones are all nice but just kinda blah and don't inspire me to drop serious coin on them. Like a neighbor said, he had test driven an F10 528i and said it didn't feel any different or better to drive than the new Honda Accord, so he bought the Accord!

Hopefully BMW will rectify much of the above in future models.
EddieB commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:14 am

I've had the privilege of driving this canyon since I was 16 years old--both motorcycles and cars. The F30 feels very good in these twisties, and the only significant nit is the runflats as compared to Michelin Sports. But even that isn't a deal breaker.

Haven't had the new 335i with DHP in there yet, but I'm sure it will be awesome as well.
windsor027 commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:21 am

I have commented many times on similar threads. I had a 2007 E90 328i sport. When I got it, i felt it was almost undrivable with the run flats. I mean commuting in DC with the crappy roads for the first 3 weeks was just about unbearable. I got regular tires and the car became much better. Fast forward to my current F30. i think the problem (and here i can't comment on the X-drive F30s as I have never test drove one) is for those of you that didn't get the sportline or didn't get DHP. When I put mine in sport (which is 99% of the time) the car is awesome. Totally planted, crazy fast, zero body role that I can feel and I have full confidence in it to stay the line. it does even better when you drive at speed. What I am trying to say is maybe BMW with the different lines is trying to create different characteristics. The X-drive, even with the DHP might be too soft for some of you guys, especially if you compare it to the E90 X-drive. That I can't argue, never having owned a X-drive 3-series. Hell I can't even comment if the DHP system on the X-drive cars has different settings (maybe if one knows for sure they can comment).

But no way anyone can drive a Sportline F30 with DHP especially on "Sport" or "Sport +" settings and come up with comments like it has body role, its soft or worse it drives like an Altima.
RobertaZ commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicBob View Post
What option is the "704 SS" for the F30 series? M-Sport suspension, DHP, etc? Has it been available since the beginning of the F30 run?

When you state that "(it's not!)", does that mean that you have it, or don't have it, but still way to soft? Please clarity. Thanks.
Part 704 is the Sport Suspension option that was available in Canada for the Sport Line F30s. Apparently it is now standard on that model in Canada. I'm not sure if it is or was optional in the U.S.

When I said "it's not", I meant that, in my opinion, it's not a true sport suspension. I paid $1,500 for the optional sport suspension on my E90 and that car handled like a dream. As far as I know, the $400 704 option on my F30 simply a lowers the body. My E90 could sail over speed bumps and I could hammer it around corners. My F30 is jarred harshly if I don't slow down to 5-10km/hr when going over speed bumps. It corners pretty well, but there's still too much lean for my taste.

Roberta
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
I'd say that the ride height on the xDrive models needs to be addressed. The wheel gap is enormous and looks terrible. The standard "low rolling resistance tires" should be an option, not standard. While the "Eco" tires are quiet they just don't provide a ton of grip, which is great if you want to slide the car around, but is lousy if you truly want to be the most out if the car.
I would say this is only an issue with the standard wheels. The 18s look just fine at the current ride height. I don't notice any unpleasant wheel gap on my sport line with xdrive. On the other hand, the 17s look small to me even without the xdrive. I think maybe the issue is the car should just come standard with 18s, and the "line" upgrades could just be "better" 18s rather than a size increase.
RobertaZ commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6027 View Post
I feel fortunate that xenon lights come standard here in Canada. Hopefully they will follow suit in the US.
Leather is standard too on the 328s and higher models
RobertaZ commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I made a thread about my H&R swap.
Would you kindly point me to that thread. I can't seem to find it!

R
WillInDenver commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:28 am

I just made the move from an E60 545 sport package to an F10 xDrive with DHP. I will admit that the old car felt like a weapon while the new one in Sport mode, merely feels tight.

But - I believe that for every person who bemoans the "softening" of the F10 and F30, there is more than one person who was turned off by how harsh the rides of the E-series cars were. This is the simple math we are dealing with.
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
...i think the problem (and here i can't comment on the X-drive F30s as I have never test drove one) is for those of you that didn't get the sportline or didn't get DHP.
...
But no way anyone can drive a Sportline F30 with DHP especially on "Sport" or "Sport +" settings and come up with comments like it has body role, its soft or worse it drives like an Altima.
I agree with what you're saying. Furthermore, I'm very happy with the car (an xDrive) because it has far better than adequate handling and performance while still being a very comfortable daily driver.

I think the issue with what you're saying, and what a lot of hardcore BMW owners are lamenting, is that the new car requires sport line and DHP to be what they want it to be. In other words, the new ad campaign could be "The F30 3-series - BMW optional."

Personally, I like the fact that the car is capable of being multiple things to multiple drivers depending on build specs.
WillInDenver commented:
September 3, 2013, 9:44 am

^ sounds right. And the reality is that for every person lamenting the softening of the current generation of BMWs, there is more than one person (in BMW's calculation) who would not have considered an E-chassis car because they were too harsh.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicBob View Post
What option is the "704 SS" for the F30 series? M-Sport suspension, DHP, etc? Has it been available since the beginning of the F30 run?

When you state that "(it's not!)", does that mean that you have it, or don't have it, but still way to soft? Please clarity. Thanks.
704 is the standard mechanical M-Sport suspension on RWD Sport and MSport line cars in the US. '12 it was standard on the Sport RWD, '13-14, standard on the Sport and M-Sport.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
Would you kindly point me to that thread. I can't seem to find it!

R
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...551&highlight=
sunny5280 commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I agree with what you're saying. Furthermore, I'm very happy with the car (an xDrive) because it has far better than adequate handling and performance while still being a very comfortable daily driver.

I think the issue with what you're saying, and what a lot of hardcore BMW owners are lamenting, is that the new car requires sport line and DHP to be what they want it to be. In other words, the new ad campaign could be "The F30 3-series - BMW optional."

Personally, I like the fact that the car is capable of being multiple things to multiple drivers depending on build specs.
Aren't the outside diameters of the tires the same between the two different wheels sizes?
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Aren't the outside diameters of the tires the same between the two different wheels sizes?
I don't know, to be honest. It could be all optical illusion, but the the 17s did not appear to fill the wheel wells the same as the 18s when I was looking at them side by side on the dealer lot. Could just be that the black rubber and the black space both combine as "negative space" to the eye.

They only stock xDrive 3er sedans at my dealer, though, so i know i was looking at cars with the same ride height and the 17s definitely looked to fill less space.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Aren't the outside diameters of the tires the same between the two different wheels sizes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I don't know, to be honest. It could be all optical illusion, but the the 17s did not appear to fill the wheel wells the same as the 18s when I was looking at them side by side on the dealer lot. Could just be that the black rubber and the black space both combine as "negative space" to the eye.

They only stock xDrive 3er sedans at my dealer, though, so i know i was looking at cars with the same ride height and the 17s definitely looked to fill less space.
When you +1 from a 17 to an 18" inch wheel, the outside diameter is unchanged, even going from the 17" 393 to the 19" 403m, that is why the speedo stays accurate. All of the F30 wheels come in about 26" outside diameter.
f30jojo commented:
September 3, 2013, 10:57 am

Good lord have we not beat this subject to death enough? I'll say a few things and I
ll try to keep it as short as possible but this subject irks the hell out of me.

First ive owned many BMW's before buying the F30. 2 E30's, 1 E34, 1 E46, 1 E90, 1 E60 and one F30. All of them great cars in their own regards. both E30's were AMAZING drivers cars, definantly 2 of the funnest cars ive ever owned. E34 was a boat but it had tons of torque and handled great. E46 was a 325xi sport, it handled well, looked good, was reliable, and comfortable. E90 was my first modern BMW. Got it CPO a couple years old off a lease. Nimble, taught steering, great engine noise, refined. E60 (still have this one) is the best, most reliable, sexiest BMW ive owned. A great road trip car, great dynamics, just the right options, sport suspension, great steering. All around perfect dual-use car. Then came the F30 (for my wife 320i sport).

Secondly, I concur with most everyones assumption/review of the F30... for about the first week of ownership. After that it just grows on you. You certainly cant judge this car just off a test drive or even a weekend loaner. Short and sweet of it? a properly equipped F30 (M suspension, Msteering wheel ect) makes it feel almost identical to the E46, im not joking. for those of you whom have owned a F30 and a E46 will know what im talking about. Honestly the F30 should have been the E46's replacement...

My First drive of a bottom bottom base no option 320i wasnt good. Low on power, sloppy in the turns, wind noise over 90mph and that God awful strange noise at over 130mph. I got home after a 3 hour trip and told my wife "i'm glad its yours is all im gonna say". Mind you this was a loaner while waiting for our order to be delivered. When we picked up my wifes car a month later we couldnt have been happier. 2013 black on black 320i sport. every option excpet sunroof and comfort access (not worth 3100 in my opinion). After owning it for a few months now I really really like it. The power is more than sufficent. The optional M suspension on the 320i is A MUST!! it handles amazingly, albeit a bit disconnected. What i mean by that is you may not feel the excitement or fun you did in older BMW's in the twisties but when you look down at your speedo through sharp turns you are pleasantly surprised. I've said this before but I'm sure a 320i with sport pkg would smoke my E60 530i on a track easily. Of course not a drag stip, but a track, definantly.

I've always felt those who hate the F30's so much either dont own one or any other modern bmw for that matter. Fact of the matter is F30s, from the 320i to the 335i, are selling at record paces. BMW has never sold so many cars in as short a period of time as they have since launching the F30/F10. They literally cant build them as fast as they're selling. That being said... a BS petition signed by non-confirmed F30 owners or anyone for that matter wont do anything. BMW wouldnt even bat an eye at it... it wouldnt even make it past a dealership General Manager. BMW north america is one of BMW's largest markets, over half i believe. HOWEVER, it is not their only market. BMW will not change they way they build cars becasue a few 30-40 somethings on some internet forum are bitching about steering feel. many people think BMW made an exception for north america by allowing M5's be sold with manual trannys. In europe its DSG only. yes BMW made a bit of an exception but that was for 2 reasons. more sales in thier biggest market and the fact that the US has very low speed limits. the only reason manuals are not offered in germany (for M5's) is becasue of heat at extremely high speeds for a long period of time. In the states this wouldnt be a problem, but for "Hans" on the autobahn, clutches and manual tranny run quite hot. anyway if your curious about that just google it. my whole point was for those of you (mostly jealous E90 owners) stop bashing the F30 dynamics... PLEASE.
Nefilim commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
My F30 on the other hand has the same solid feel through the corners, all be it with a bit more body roll than my E90 did, but it feels great none the less. The F30 feels more nimble and it should, it's significantly lighter!
significantly lighter? very much comparable i'd say:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/57494...o-e90-and-e46/
f30jojo commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
When you +1 from a 17 to an 18" inch wheel, the outside diameter is unchanged, even going from the 17" 393 to the 19" 403m, that is why the speedo stays accurate. All of the F30 wheels come in about 26" outside diameter.
.....what?????..... 17 inch wheels are 17 inch wheels, 18 inch wheels are 18 inch wheels, 19 inch wheels are 19 inch wheels... see a patern forming here? with tires installed on the wheels is what makes a difference. usually the bigger the wheel the shorter the sidewall ratio will be of the tire, so it will fit in the wheel well. not quite sure what you mean by F30 wheels are 26's... with tires maybe.
sunny5280 commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
I've always felt those who hate the F30's so much either dont own one or any other modern bmw for that matter. Fact of the matter is F30s, from the 320i to the 335i, are selling at record paces. BMW has never sold so many cars in as short a period of time as they have since launching the F30/F10. They literally cant build them as fast as they're selling. That being said... a BS petition signed by non-confirmed F30 owners or anyone for that matter wont do anything. BMW wouldnt even bat an eye at it... it wouldnt even make it past a dealership General Manager. BMW north america is one of BMW's largest markets, over half i believe. HOWEVER, it is not their only market. BMW will not change they way they build cars becasue a few 30-40 somethings on some internet forum are bitching about steering feel. many people think BMW made an exception for north america by allowing M5's be sold with manual trannys. In europe its DSG only. yes BMW made a bit of an exception but that was for 2 reasons. more sales in thier biggest market and the fact that the US has very low speed limits. the only reason manuals are not offered in germany (for M5's) is becasue of heat at extremely high speeds for a long period of time. In the states this wouldnt be a problem, but for "Hans" on the autobahn, clutches and manual tranny run quite hot. anyway if your curious about that just google it. my whole point was for those of you (mostly jealous E90 owners) stop bashing the F30 dynamics... PLEASE.
It's my understanding, due to customer feedback, BMW did change the steering feel of the E46 model. Perhaps they would be willing to do so for the F30.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
.....what?????..... 17 inch wheels are 17 inch wheels, 18 inch wheels are 18 inch wheels, 19 inch wheels are 19 inch wheels... see a patern forming here? with tires installed on the wheels is what makes a difference. usually the bigger the wheel the shorter the sidewall ratio will be of the tire, so it will fit in the wheel well. not quite sure what you mean by F30 wheels are 26's... with tires maybe.
You are incorrect in reading my reply as it quoted others who were not understanding aspect ratio etc.

You are confusing the wheel with the wheel/tire which is what I was referencing. TO BE MORE CLEAR...

The 17" or 18" refers to the whole inside the tire for the wheel itself, around that is the ASPECT RATIO, 225/50/17-the aspect ratio is the 50, or 50% of the width which is 225mm.

As you move from a 225/50/17 to a 225/45/18, the whole is larger for the larger wheel when going from 17-18", but the aspect ratio or sidewall decreases. This keeps the overall diameter to be the same. As I said, the overall diameter of most F30 setups is 26". To be clear-that is the tire overall diameter.
sunny5280 commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
You are incorrect in reading my reply as it quoted others who were not understanding aspect ratio etc.
I understand it. Which is why I made the post I did.
f30jojo commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
It's my understanding, due to customer feedback, BMW did change the steering feel of the E46 model. Perhaps they would be willing to do so for the F30.
good point. but the E46 steering was changed to be lighter (soccer moms and teeny boppers were complaining). it was however still much stiffer than todays standard. my point was you get use to the F30 steering quickly, at least i did anyway. stiffening it up would not change how the car feels or handles... it would just be stiffer. i doubt they would change the complete design of the electric steering. maybe a "code" or some way-somehow providing less assistance would be in order. but switching back to hydralic i think is out of the question.
sunny5280 commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
good point. but the E46 steering was changed to be lighter (soccer moms and teeny boppers were complaining). it was however still much stiffer than todays standard. my point was you get use to the F30 steering quickly, at least i did anyway. stiffening it up would not change how the car feels or handles... it would just be stiffer. i doubt they would change the complete design of the electric steering. maybe a "code" or some way-somehow providing less assistance would be in order. but switching back to hydralic i think is out of the question.
I thought it was the other way around...they made it heavier. With that said I understand your overall point. In fact it's part of the foundation from which I've built my AWD versus RWD argument. As with most things it's not one being better / worse than the other. Just different.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 3, 2013, 11:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I understand it. Which is why I made the post I did.
I was not correcting you-you got it right, I was highlighting Dr. 328xi's post in reply to you-quoting both of you gave the background to my reply.
bmwesq commented:
September 3, 2013, 12:51 pm

I'm just glad I did the research and got the DHP. I think my F30 drives pretty damn good. I have owned an E90.
EddieB commented:
September 3, 2013, 1:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwesq View Post
I'm just glad I did the research and got the DHP. I think my F30 drives pretty damn good. I have owned an E90.
I got a second chance and ordered DHP on my present ride.
SergioK commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
I'd say that the ride height on the xDrive models needs to be addressed. The wheel gap is enormous and looks terrible.
It's as if the engineers at BMW who specified the spring rate/height screwed up, right? Lets extrapolate a bit... you buy an AWD vehicle then complain about the way it looks?
minn19 commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:33 pm

How many times are we gonna beat the same subject in to the ground. Has anything new been said? The same people that like the F30 still do and the same people that dislike to hate the F30 still do.

Furby, I assume you got to test drive an xDrive F30 before you bought yours and did your ED, correct? Also, you are a frequent contributing member of this forum so I can't imagine the way the xDrive handles caught you off guard. As there are numerous threads that talk about it being the softest suspension of all of the F30's no matter the line.

Can't wait for the 20th thread that talks about the same thing again and again and again...
WillInDenver commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwesq View Post
I'm just glad I did the research and got the DHP. I think my F30 drives pretty damn good. I have owned an E90.
I had to pick between a Graphite F10 with DHP and a Titanium one without it. I kind of wanted Titanium, since you never see it on F10s and it looks great - but I went with the Graphite DHP.
EddieB commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
How many times are we gonna beat the same subject in to the ground. Has anything new been said? The same people that like the F30 still do and the same people that dislike to hate the F30 still do.

Furby, I assume you got to test drive an xDrive F30 before you bought yours and did your ED, correct? Also, you are a frequent contributing member of this forum so I can't imagine the way the xDrive handles caught you off guard. As there are numerous threads that talk about it being the softest suspension of all of the F30's no matter the line.

Can't wait for the 20th thread that talks about the same thing again and again and again...
Let's talk about the Bangle Butt
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
How many times are we gonna beat the same subject in to the ground. Has anything new been said? The same people that like the F30 still do and the same people that dislike to hate the F30 still do.
Definition of First World Problems?

minn19 commented:
September 3, 2013, 2:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
Definition of First World Problems?



Poor us.
vern commented:
September 3, 2013, 8:54 pm

IMHO post #40 says it all.
cheers
vern
Carnook commented:
September 4, 2013, 12:15 am

My F30 335i Sport with Sport Suspension on H&R Sport Springs can out manoeuvre my E46 330ci any day of the week.

H&R Sport Springs FTW.
Bill-SD commented:
September 4, 2013, 11:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
How many times are we gonna beat the same subject in to the ground. Has anything new been said? The same people that like the F30 still do and the same people that dislike to hate the F30 still do.

Furby, I assume you got to test drive an xDrive F30 before you bought yours and did your ED, correct? Also, you are a frequent contributing member of this forum so I can't imagine the way the xDrive handles caught you off guard. As there are numerous threads that talk about it being the softest suspension of all of the F30's no matter the line.

Can't wait for the 20th thread that talks about the same thing again and again and again...
Crazy huh? Same thing happens with each new model. Seen this movie before

I agree with you though. Research it, buy it, and then complain about it
RobertaZ commented:
September 4, 2013, 11:56 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
I've always felt those who hate the F30's so much either dont own one or any other modern bmw for that matter. Fact of the matter is F30s, from the 320i to the 335i, are selling at record paces. BMW has never sold so many cars in as short a period of time as they have since launching the F30/F10. They literally cant build them as fast as they're selling...

...my whole point was for those of you (mostly jealous E90 owners) stop bashing the F30 dynamics... PLEASE.
The fact that they're selling like hotcakes is irrelevant to enthusiasts, just the way that a particular cheap wine may outsell a connoisseur's wine. It doesn't make our opinions less valid. If we've bothered to post on this forum, it's because we like talking about the little things that BMW offers in its cars (or doesn't) that differentiates it from other manufacturers. I agree that the whining of a few enthusiasts is not going to make BMW change anything about its cars. Clearly their studies indicated that the average North American buyer is looking for an automatic tranny in a car that has a softer ride. When I bought my 2000 3 series, the dealer told me that manual transmission vehicles accounted for over 80% of their 3 Series sales. When I bought my 2013 in May, I was told (by the same dealer) that manual transmissions account for under 10% of their 3 Series sales. Obviously the profile of the "typical" 3 Series driver has changed in the last decade and a bit.

As for the E90......I had one up until late July. It handled MUCH better than the F30 Sport Line with optional SS and as a result I am investigating putting H&R springs in the F30. I don't think I would be considered a "jealous" E90 owner, simply an experienced one who can make a valid comparison between the old and the new generations of 3 Series BMWs.

R
minn19 commented:
September 4, 2013, 1:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Crazy huh? Same thing happens with each new model. Seen this movie before

I agree with you though. Research it, buy it, and then complain about it
Right, then after you buy it basically complaining that you got ripped off because BMW should of included this or that standard. Channeling what BJ has said multiple times: an F30 (328) can be a sub 40,000 car if you want it that way. If you want all of the goodies and the handling of the past you need to pony up to 50k plus. Also, like BJ has stated, BMW is a business with a wide range of clients they trying to attract and please. Thus the reason for the large spread of options and prices of the 3 series. Unfortunately, it sounds like they fell short for the hardcore enthusiast crowd. As has also been said, hopefully the new 1/2 series cars fix these problems and become like the 3 series cars of old that you guys all loved.

I think the DHP package for a thousand bucks is a steal for what you get. Have you priced out similar aftermarket systems? You get in to the 5-6k territory pretty quick when you include installation and then you have to worry about a non-stock system playing nice with a highly computerized car, warranty etc...

Furb, not to keep picking on you, but you special ordered your car and went to Munich to pick this up. I'm guessing you spent close to 55-60k for the car and trip costs. Why didn't you add DHP for one more grand?
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 4, 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
When I bought my 2000 3 series, the dealer told me that manual transmission vehicles accounted for over 80% of their 3 Series sales. When I bought my 2013 in May, I was told (by the same dealer) that manual transmissions account for under 10% of their 3 Series sales. Obviously the profile of the "typical" 3 Series driver has changed in the last decade and a bit.
I think that's only half the story. The other half is the difference in transmissions themselves. The automatic I had in 2000 (not a BMW) was a crappy 4-speed...back in the day when flooring it meant you went into the "passing gear" (AKA second gear). Performance was miserable compared to a manual. With the current 7 and 8 speed autos on many luxury brand cars (even the Ford Fusion now comes with a pretty slick 6-speed manual), the performance argument is less relevant. Additionally, the fuel economy argument is gone as most new automatics are equal to or more efficient than corresponding manuals. This leaves the final argument for a manual to be the simple joy of driving a manual - a great reason to buy one, but a smaller percentage of the population.

Quote:
Reasons to buy a manual in 2000
  • Enjoy driving a manual over an automatic
  • More fuel efficiency
  • Better performance

Reasons to buy a manual in 2013
  • Enjoy driving a manual over an automatic
The automatics have caught up to and surpassed the manuals in many ways, and the buying patterns have shifted accordingly. I, for one, couldn't wait to get out the automatic I was driving in 2000 (which was purchased used and simply too good of a deal to pass on), but when the time came to replace it and I drove my first DSG transmission, I opted for the DSG rather than the manual and never regretted it. I have the 8AT sport transmission now, and I don't regret it either. I think I will be sad to see manuals completely gone if/when that happens, but I doubt I'll ever buy another one myself...
furby076 commented:
September 4, 2013, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post

Of course BMW cares and there is always room for improvement - its nonsensical to think otherwise, however, regarding a petition, one really needs to recognize that an enthusiast should have some level of awareness, and consequently, needs to take some measure of personal responsibility. I assume buyers of F30s on this forum test drove the car before buying it. After test driving my 328xi, I understood it was not equivalent to my M3 in terms of handling but I did not want another M3. I wanted a daily driver that was fast economical comfy and compliant - in short, a car that will allow me to cover a lot of ground in a safe efficient manner. So far - my 328xi Sport-line is proving ideal.
How should an enthusiast do so? I was at five dealers prior to buying, only ONE had an m-sport. It wasn't with x-drive. So if you don't have an option to try it out, how would you know? On top of that, how much feel can you get on a 1-2 mile test drive. Simply put, the test drives don't even come close to scratching the surface, let alone allowing you to get good report for the feel of the car.

The overall point of this - the e9x had something going, and the pendulum was on the harsh/firm side, and now it's completely on the other side - floaty/soft. There is a happy medium, and they totally skipped it. Their "answer" was to make a DHP option, and even DHP in sport is not the same as what e9x previously had.
furby076 commented:
September 4, 2013, 2:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
We'll see. The F30 "steering feel" has been thoroughly trashed by the automotive press (and me), What were they thinking of?...as if Munich threw away their "legacy" manual.

What next? A front wheel drive M3?
e9x - no sway when driving on the road
f3x - lots of sway when driving on the road. Constantly going side-to-side. It needs to be more stiff.

The change to the steering wheel was, again, in favor of people who complained it was too hard to turn the steering wheel when the car was parked.
furby076 commented:
September 4, 2013, 2:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW has already addressed this. Regrettably, you chose the softest variant of the F30 suspension:
No they haven't BJ. They have actually softened up the suspension from the previous gen. To remind you, I came from a non-m-sport with x-drive. My suspension is much softer now then it was before.
Also, M-sport + X-drive (two most expensive packages) = softest suspension unless you get an additional.

Again - what is available today is worse off then what was available yesterday. They should fix this, and a way to fix it is to offer DHP as standard to all vehicles. Even then, DHP on is not the same as e9x
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The XDrive Suspension without DHP is the softest and loosest of the bunch. In order for BMW to offer the 3 Series to a very wide audience, people expecting to pay $30,000 to $60,000 for the same car, BMW had to allow for a very wide assortment of options and packages.
Who is getting a BMW at $30,000? Even with incentives, and ED you cannot get this card for $30,000, let alone an m-sport


Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It is not a 'petition' that is needed. Rather an understanding that when you take a car designed to be a best-in-class luxury sport sedan at $50,000 and strip it down you're going to lose a lot. In the old days, the tight suspension and legendary handling were standard equipment; now you have to pay for it. Strip the GPS and the leather, no worries. Strip the Sport line, strip the DHP, don't opt for the M-Performance, it's on the buyer, not the manufacturer.

BJ
There it is, luxury sport-sedan...it used to be sport luxury vehicle. The ruined the steering/suspension to make it an option. They took a step backward and said "pay to get what you had". It seriously makes me consider, what should I do when the lease is up in 3 years.
captainaudio commented:
September 4, 2013, 4:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
e9x - no sway when driving on the road
f3x - lots of sway when driving on the road. Constantly going side-to-side. It needs to be more stiff.

The change to the steering wheel was, again, in favor of people who complained it was too hard to turn the steering wheel when the car was parked.
Ideally the suspension should provide
a comfortable ride, be able to smooth out road imperfections and flat cornering. With the technology available today this is relatively easy to achieve. In the case of the F30 it should be a matter of fine tuning the spring and damper rated as the basic suspension geometry should be more than adequate.

ALAIK Koni FSD dampers, which wonders on the E9x, are not yet available for the F30 but I suspect that they would solve the body lean issue with no deterioration of ride quality


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 4, 2013, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
When I bought my 2000 3 series, the dealer told me that manual transmission vehicles accounted for over 80% of their 3 Series sales. When I bought my 2013 in May, I was told (by the same dealer) that manual transmissions account for under 10% of their 3 Series sales. Obviously the profile of the "typical" 3 Series driver has changed in the last decade and a bit.


R
Your dealer was wrong. It's really that simple lol.

In 2000, more people were buying manuals. That is a fact. But it was maybe 15%. The numbers have gone down(though a slight up tick in the last year or so they say) so maybe it's down to 9-10%, the figures are out there. Saying it went from 80% of 3 series sales to 10% is simply false. Even in 2000, there were not that many manual trans 3 series on the lots. It is still the case today, but worse.
RobertaZ commented:
September 4, 2013, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
e9x - no sway when driving on the road
f3x - lots of sway when driving on the road. Constantly going side-to-side. It needs to be more stiff.
RobertaZ commented:
September 4, 2013, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Your dealer was wrong. It's really that simple lol.

In 2000, more people were buying manuals. That is a fact. But it was maybe 15%. The numbers have gone down(though a slight up tick in the last year or so they say) so maybe it's down to 9-10%, the figures are out there. Saying it went from 80% of 3 series sales to 10% is simply false. Even in 2000, there were not that many manual trans 3 series on the lots. It is still the case today, but worse.
My dealer was not "wrong", as my dealer knew exactly how many of each that he sold. He wasn't quoting BMW sales. He was quoting his dealership's sales. The dealership is in a wealthier part of town, with a rapidly growing part of the population being a part of a group that would not typically be called, ahem, enthusiasts.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 4, 2013, 6:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
My dealer was not "wrong", as my dealer knew exactly how many of each that he sold. He wasn't quoting BMW sales. He was quoting his dealership's sales. The dealership is in a wealthier part of town, with a rapidly growing part of the population being a part of a group that would not typically be called, ahem, enthusiasts.
Sounds like BS to me.

Only maybe with M cars in '00(due to there being no SMG) would you see a dealer sell 80% with manuals.

But hey, if you want to believe in EVERYTHING your dealer tells you, go for it.
Trey100 commented:
September 4, 2013, 7:39 pm

For those talking about the increase in roll - C&D did a comparison in the October issue between the E9x and F3x. I don't have the copy in front of me but if I recall, the measures roll was not more in F3x. I thought that was interesting. Hopefully I am remembering correctly. I had an E90 RWD sport suspension and now ordered an AWD M Sport with DHP. In my test drives, I didn't notice the additional body roll. I did notice the looser steering.


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Capobranco commented:
September 4, 2013, 7:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
How should an enthusiast do so? I was at five dealers prior to buying, only ONE had an m-sport. It wasn't with x-drive. So if you don't have an option to try it out, how would you know? On top of that, how much feel can you get on a 1-2 mile test drive. Simply put, the test drives don't even come close to scratching the surface, let alone allowing you to get good report for the feel of the car.

The overall point of this - the e9x had something going, and the pendulum was on the harsh/firm side, and now it's completely on the other side - floaty/soft. There is a happy medium, and they totally skipped it. Their "answer" was to make a DHP option, and even DHP in sport is not the same as what e9x previously had.
I agree;

- Typical "test" drives are more often than not less than revealing,

- Moreover, M Sports are usually ordered cars and few dealers have them on their lots,

- DHP is almost universally a customer ordered option – really rare to find on a dealer's lot to test.

Furthermore, being a repeat BMW customer, you expect all BMWs to come with a modicum of "driver satisfaction" as standard equipment.

In general, I believe Xenon lights should be standard on all BMWs - likewise DHP with the exception of M Sport customers who opt for standard sport suspension - besides the obvious benefits to customers, both would give BMWNA great bragging points.


I have owned 8 BMWs and consider myself an enthusiast – I do read and take into consideration reviews on Bimmerfest. Recently, I had one open Saturday available to buy a car, I was not shopping for another M3, but for a fast economical all weather car that would still be fun given I am driving more than 2K miles a month. I thought I was going to buy some F30 335i variant.

Having read all the bad press on the F30 328 on Bimmerfest I was preconditioned not to like it. On a whim I tested a 328xi Sportline and quite frankly was astonished in a good way – I test drove it again – and again – then test drove it back to back with the car I originally thought I might purchase – a 335i 6MT Sportline. Neither car had DHP. Both cars offered very different driving experiences.

Regarding driver satisfaction – yeah, I am pleased with my 328xi in terms of comfort – compliancy – economy and yes – fun. The more I drive the car the more I appreciate its depth of engineering excellence. On a recent rather challenging drive to W VA I encountered a number of fast sweepers and tight switchbacks. Generally, I very much appreciate the compliancy of the car, but on this trip, I saw and felt what many have commented on – namely, a feeling that the front end is not perfectly damped. That is, if you hit a bump, you see the front end slightly oscillate, but when encountering a more severe imperfection - surprisingly – for just a moment – you feel a second momentary up-down motion. However – as you push the car - the car just sticks and sticks despite the slightly unsettled motion. Bottom line - I can drive the car very quickly, safely and in comfort.

My 328xi is not my M3, but I find it satisfying in the twisties. Is it an autocrosser – no way – but it feels every bit like a capable BMW despite its foibles. I am not sure why it works as well as it does but it works and I am enjoying it. If DHP were available to me - I would have bought it - I like it on my X3 M Sport 3.5. Fix the front shocks – OK – an obvious easy fix but my point is even out of the box the car delivers a satisfying experience. I feel no overwhelming compunction to address the issue on my particular car.

So for those who say the F30 is not a true BMW I say I do not agree. The "Ultimate Driving Machine" is a moving target subject to changing priorities, legalities, and tech. I consider the F30 to be very much an "Ultimate Driving Machine" for the world of 2013. Driver satisfaction came standard on my 328xi.
WillInDenver commented:
September 4, 2013, 8:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
The fact that they're selling like hotcakes is irrelevant to enthusiasts, just the way that a particular cheap wine may outsell a connoisseur's wine. It doesn't make our opinions less valid.
Of course it doesn't. Many of the critics, though, go beyond saying "I prefer the way BMW used to make cars over the way they do now" and say "BMW has made some terrible choices and has lost their way as a company." Those are very different claims, the former being a legitimate opinion and the latter being provably incorrect by any reasonable measure.
Mookie11 commented:
September 4, 2013, 8:56 pm

I agree the handling is amazing I just purchased a 2006 330xi and I absolutely love the handling !


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Michael Schott commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
How should an enthusiast do so? I was at five dealers prior to buying, only ONE had an m-sport. It wasn't with x-drive. So if you don't have an option to try it out, how would you know? On top of that, how much feel can you get on a 1-2 mile test drive. Simply put, the test drives don't even come close to scratching the surface, let alone allowing you to get good report for the feel of the car.

The overall point of this - the e9x had something going, and the pendulum was on the harsh/firm side, and now it's completely on the other side - floaty/soft. There is a happy medium, and they totally skipped it. Their "answer" was to make a DHP option, and even DHP in sport is not the same as what e9x previously had.
Few people want the bias that a Sport E90 had. I'm not sure I want another car with the busy suspension of my base 17" wheel 2011 E90 that has improved shocks over previous models. IMO the Sport Line F30 has a great suspension. It has higher cornering limits than the ZSP E90 and is far roe comfortable. It rolls more in turns and of course the EPS is also a negative but it's a far better compromise. But if the gauge of one's experience with the F30 is an xDrive model, it's quite disappointing. DHP is required on that model. The truth is, 95% of 3 series buyers do not care.
Michael Schott commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Sounds like BS to me.

Only maybe with M cars in '00(due to there being no SMG) would you see a dealer sell 80% with manuals.

But hey, if you want to believe in EVERYTHING your dealer tells you, go for it.
I agree. I seriously doubt that in 2000 80% of 3 series at one US dealer were MT. In fact I'd bet my car that's not true. And nearly all BMW dealers are in wealthy areas. BMW hasn't been an enthusiast targeted car company since the 1970's.
m_tegey commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
I would say this is only an issue with the standard wheels. The 18s look just fine at the current ride height. I don't notice any unpleasant wheel gap on my sport line with xdrive. On the other hand, the 17s look small to me even without the xdrive. I think maybe the issue is the car should just come standard with 18s, and the "line" upgrades could just be "better" 18s rather than a size increase.
I have a 2013 328xi M Sport with 18" wheels, the gap even with the 18's is horrendous.
WillInDenver commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Few people want the bias that a Sport E90 had.
Also true of the sport package RWD E60 cars. They were admirable handlers but the experience was not for everyone. Ask my wife.
m_tegey commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SergioK View Post
It's as if the engineers at BMW who specified the spring rate/height screwed up, right? Lets extrapolate a bit... you buy an AWD vehicle then complain about the way it looks?
I find it interesting that Audi manages to keep the wheel gap clean on the A4 Quattro is all. I'm sorry that I like my cars to have minimal wheel gap. The xDrive 3 series seems to be the only BMW with this ugly wheel gap issue.
m_tegey commented:
September 4, 2013, 9:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefilim View Post
significantly lighter? very much comparable i'd say:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/57494...o-e90-and-e46/
I apologize. While the link you posted doesn't have the xDrive model figures, you're right it's not a massive difference. Still with the F30 328xi weighing 3,595lbs vs. the E90 328xi at 3,790 you can feel that 200lb difference.
floydarogers commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I agree. I seriously doubt that in 2000 80% of 3 series at one US dealer were MT. In fact I'd bet my car that's not true. And nearly all BMW dealers are in wealthy areas. BMW hasn't been an enthusiast targeted car company since the 1970's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
My dealer was not "wrong", as my dealer knew exactly how many of each that he sold. He wasn't quoting BMW sales. He was quoting his dealership's sales.
I wouldn't have been quite so strident arguing with Roberta as Michael and James have been, nevertheless I agree with them that 80% MT is (and was) never a reality.

I just went to cars.com and searched for ALL BMW models in 2000. 606 were returned, 167 were MT, 376 were AT, 10 were Steptronic, and 53 were unknown. 167 is almost 28%. Even if all the unknowns were MT it would only be 36%. Now, 1) we currently conjecture that MT cars don't change hands very often, and 2) the dealers listing a car as MT sometimes count paddles/steptronic as MT, and 3) 3-series have always had more MT than other models. But the reality is that nothing is going to get that figure anywhere close to 80%. Or 50% for that matter.

If you expand the search to '76 - '99, you get 1163 total cars, 728 of which are AT. That's 63% auto. I'm sorry, but that sales guy was on drugs.
Teemo Panda commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:17 pm

I don't think that BMW would want to spend money to satisfy our current needs right now.


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RobertaZ commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Sounds like BS to me.

Only maybe with M cars in '00(due to there being no SMG) would you see a dealer sell 80% with manuals.

But hey, if you want to believe in EVERYTHING your dealer tells you, go for it.
He had nothing to gain by imparting that info. I had already bought the car.
RobertaZ commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
....That's 63% auto. I'm sorry, but that sales guy was on drugs.
Hey! Maybe I was too!

R
ZGator commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
IMHO post #40 says it all.
cheers
vern
IMHO post #42 says it all
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 4, 2013, 10:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
He had nothing to gain by imparting that info. I had already bought the car.
After buying my first car as a kid, I learned that a lot of things from a dealerships mouth are from their nether regions.
av98 commented:
September 4, 2013, 11:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Right, then after you buy it basically complaining that you got ripped off because BMW should of included this or that standard. Channeling what BJ has said multiple times: an F30 (328) can be a sub 40,000 car if you want it that way. If you want all of the goodies and the handling of the past you need to pony up to 50k plus. Also, like BJ has stated, BMW is a business with a wide range of clients they trying to attract and please. Thus the reason for the large spread of options and prices of the 3 series. Unfortunately, it sounds like they fell short for the hardcore enthusiast crowd. As has also been said, hopefully the new 1/2 series cars fix these problems and become like the 3 series cars of old that you guys all loved.

I think the DHP package for a thousand bucks is a steal for what you get. Have you priced out similar aftermarket systems? You get in to the 5-6k territory pretty quick when you include installation and then you have to worry about a non-stock system playing nice with a highly computerized car, warranty etc...

Furb, not to keep picking on you, but you special ordered your car and went to Munich to pick this up. I'm guessing you spent close to 55-60k for the car and trip costs. Why didn't you add DHP for one more grand?
Because DHP is inferior to the BMW enthusiasts hence why they have the M performance suspension that deletes the DHP option if it was previously installed and keeps the factory warranty as it's designed by who else other than the M division of BMW.

Just an FYI, an M Sport 328i with the M performance suspension (port installed) can be had for $45K otd, so don't smoke the pipe BJ sells you. We've argued over this for far too long with the BS status of the BMW brand thrown in.


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Michael Schott commented:
September 4, 2013, 11:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_tegey View Post
I apologize. While the link you posted doesn't have the xDrive model figures, you're right it's not a massive difference. Still with the F30 328xi weighing 3,595lbs vs. the E90 328xi at 3,790 you can feel that 200lb difference.
I don't know where you got that figure for the E90. A 328i E90 xDrive is listed at 3605 pounds with MT and about 3680 with AT.
EddieB commented:
September 5, 2013, 12:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Because DHP is inferior to the BMW enthusiasts hence why they have the M performance suspension that deletes the DHP option if it was previously installed and keeps the factory warranty as it's designed by who else other than the M division of BMW.

Just an FYI, an M Sport 328i with the M performance suspension (port installed) can be had for $45K otd, so don't smoke the pipe BJ sells you. We've argued over this for far too long with the BS status of the BMW brand thrown in.


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I'm quite happy with DHP having come from an M3.
m_tegey commented:
September 5, 2013, 12:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't know where you got that figure for the E90. A 328i E90 xDrive is listed at 3605 pounds with MT and about 3680 with AT.
You're absolutely correct. I appolgize I was looking at the gvwr. I stand corrected sir.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 5, 2013, 12:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
IMHO post #40 says it all.
cheers
vern
+1

It's all about Post #40.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 5, 2013, 1:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
No they haven't BJ. They have actually softened up the suspension from the previous gen. To remind you, I came from a non-m-sport with x-drive. My suspension is much softer now then it was before.
Also, M-sport + X-drive (two most expensive packages) = softest suspension unless you get an additional.
It's a BMW balancing act. In order to make all those E90 options standard equipment in the F30 (add up the cost of the split folding seat, the auto dimming mirror, Bluetooth, iDrive and all the rest, it's substantial) and keep those monthly lease payments the same something had to give.

BMW's research clearly must show that the average buyer wants those comfort features and can live without the harsh suspension being shoved down their throats and subsidized by the lack of said comfort features. They just flipped the offering. Now you get tech goodies for free, have to pay for the handling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Again - what is available today is worse off then what was available yesterday. They should fix this, and a way to fix it is to offer DHP as standard to all vehicles. Even then, DHP on is not the same as e9x
BMW held on as long as they could, but eventually they were getting their clocks cleaned by Mercedes Benz and Audi who offered fully-featured cars at the expense of performance. The E90 was a stiff rattlebox that required $5,000 worth of options just to get a garage door opener, heated seats, leather, and an infotainment system. Was optioned straight out of 1999.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
There it is, luxury sport-sedan...it used to be sport luxury vehicle. The ruined the steering/suspension to make it an option. They took a step backward and said "pay to get what you had". It seriously makes me consider, what should I do when the lease is up in 3 years.
Last time I checked, the typical 3 Series owner wants creature comforts and a $399 monthly payment and the typical 3 Series enthusiast will spend nice $ for all these mods and tweaks. So BMW merely said "Hmm, what say we give Mr. & Mrs. Babyboomer the gadgets they want and force Boy Racer to pay us for all those suspension mods instead of us giving him a sports ride for free and having him give $3,000 to Turner anyway?"

The 3 Series has always catered to the baby boom generation, and they're all over 50 now, most of 'em are in their 60's and 70's, and none of them go racing in the streets anymore. They've got iPhone's and joint pain. The F30 is perfect for them.

As for you, BMW has taken care of it, you just need to pay them. The M-Performance Suspension is dealer installed, it restores the handling to a level superior to any E90, and solves all the woes. Boiled down to its basic element Furb, your argument is about money and that shouldn't be a barrier for any owner of a $50,000 German luxury car.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 5, 2013, 1:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post

Just an FYI, an M Sport 328i with the M performance suspension (port installed) can be had for $45K otd, so don't smoke the pipe BJ sells you. We've argued over this for far too long with the BS status of the BMW brand thrown in.
A $45,000 car is 50% more expensive than a $30,000 car which is where many of the disappointed F30 drivers graze.

This has nothing to do with status anymore. It has to do with the fact that BMW made a major decision to change the 3 Series formula and either people are slow to grasp it or are in denial: You don't get the legendary suspension, handling, or road feel as standard equipment anymore; now you have to pay for it.

Simple as that. Nothing to do with status, everything to do with bank. BMW is finally saying "Hey, you want a car that handles like a dream and is loaded with comfort features, you can pay for it thank you very much." Used to be you could cheat the system, figure out a way to get into a tight-handling rocket for under $35,000 and live without the basic features found in a 1995 Honda. No more.

The BMW 3 Series is a $50,000 fully-featured vehicle that one can strip down to $30,000 if one wants, it's not a $30,000 car that one can option-up.

BJ
mr_clueless commented:
September 5, 2013, 2:21 am

I think part of the reason we keep seeing posts like this is that there aren't enough of the cars at dealers so people either:
(a) Make assumptions about how a certain model will handle (may or may not depending on expectation).
(b) Hope they will grow to like whatever they test drove, even though the test drive didn't blow them away at the time of the test drive.

It took me almost 2 years of research (not full time, though ) to finally pull the trigger on my order and I still have no idea if I will really like the way the car handles after I get it. But the way I look at it, my current car needs to be replaced, so I might as well take my chances with the F30...if it doesn't work out I'll figure something else out. I have tried DHP and it definitely didn't blow me away, but it did seem to get rid of some of the looseness of the front end, but again I didn't get enough time with it...I didn't even get to try it on the highway because of the weird CA during that drive....plus he didn't know how to get the suspension in comfort while steering/throttle in sport...can't believe how little they know about the cars.

There are a few things BMW nailed with this car which IMO are best in class
- Interior styling
- Engine
- Transmission (if auto)

The suspension and steering feel are definitely not one of them, but what's the alternative? MB (not really much better, but lose the MT...the only one worth driving is the 6 cylinder since their 4 cylinder is underpowered), Audi (don't care for the interior design or the way it shifts), Lexus (no MT, worse MPG, worse performance), ... There really isn't an alternative that does not require giving up something else, or we'd all be buying that.
av98 commented:
September 5, 2013, 5:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
A $45,000 car is 50% more expensive than a $30,000 car which is where many of the disappointed F30 drivers graze.

This has nothing to do with status anymore. It has to do with the fact that BMW made a major decision to change the 3 Series formula and either people are slow to grasp it or are in denial: You don't get the legendary suspension, handling, or road feel as standard equipment anymore; now you have to pay for it.

Simple as that. Nothing to do with status, everything to do with bank. BMW is finally saying "Hey, you want a car that handles like a dream and is loaded with comfort features, you can pay for it thank you very much." Used to be you could cheat the system, figure out a way to get into a tight-handling rocket for under $35,000 and live without the basic features found in a 1995 Honda. No more.

The BMW 3 Series is a $50,000 fully-featured vehicle that one can strip down to $30,000 if one wants, it's not a $30,000 car that one can option-up.

BJ
Fair enough. Just for reference from the previous model years- $35-50K has always been the sweet spot for enthusiast model buy ins offered by BMW. There always seems to be a +$10K over base model addition to get to that sweet spot. BMW has made the entry point more affordable over the years by not requiring going into the M world by offering more capable cars.

E30 M3- $35K in 1988.
E36 M3 or fully loaded 328is- $45K in 1995/1996
E46 ZHP or Base model E46 M3- $45K-48K in 2003
E9x 335is- $50K in 2011
F30 328i + M perf suspension- $45K in 2012
F30 335i + M perf suspension- $55K in 2012.


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Trey100 commented:
September 5, 2013, 6:51 am

To compare to the "is", you would need to add the MPPK. A $6k-$7k jump in one year is significant.

For reference my similarly loaded 2007 335 was 46k. This one (admittedly with xdrive this time) is just about 57k. That's heavy for a 3 series considering there's a whole bunch of people buying $35k 320s that have a lot of the same features.

In terms of the ride, I still think people are completely exaggerating how floaty these cars are. I test drove a bunch of sport and m sport xdrive 335s (none with DHP since what customer would want that?) and outside of the steering feeling looser, the handling for the street was very competent. I didn't feel like it was light years worse than my E90 RWD with sport package. Up in NY, almost all pf these cars come with RFT all seasons so that contributes to the problem as well. Sure the E90 had heavy steering feel - no doubt about it. I added DHP and am already planning to replace the RFTs this time and I am sure that bit of added benefit will make it perfect for normal street driving. Have others who are complaining sprung for DHP and a nice set of pilot sports?




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GVFlyer commented:
September 5, 2013, 6:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Anyone who thought that an E9x with sport suspension and Bridgestone RFTs was soft is more likely to have previously owned a Conestoga Wagon than an E46.


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LOL! Well put. My 335is beat me to death on less than ideal roads.
sunny5280 commented:
September 5, 2013, 8:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW has already addressed this. Regrettably, you chose the softest variant of the F30 suspension:

1. M-Performance Suspension
2. Sport Line Suspension
3. Adaptive M-Suspension
4. Comfort Supension
5. XDrive Suspension

The XDrive Suspension without DHP is the softest and loosest of the bunch.
Where can I find more information on these different suspension configurations?
minn19 commented:
September 5, 2013, 9:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Because DHP is inferior to the BMW enthusiasts hence why they have the M performance suspension that deletes the DHP option if it was previously installed and keeps the factory warranty as it's designed by who else other than the M division of BMW.

Just an FYI, an M Sport 328i with the M performance suspension (port installed) can be had for $45K otd, so don't smoke the pipe BJ sells you. We've argued over this for far too long with the BS status of the BMW brand thrown in.


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Sorry, I didn't word my post very well. It was more in reference to Furby's build. As far as I know, DHP is the only other suspension option for xDrive models. So I was comparing the cost between DHP and similar aftermarket systems.

I'll let you and BJ fight over whose smoking what.

Has any aftermarket company released full coil overs for the xDrives yet? I know H&R has springs for them, that is all that I have seen though. Love my car, but I to would like to stiffen it up a bit.
EstorilF30 commented:
September 5, 2013, 9:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Where can I find more information on these different suspension configurations?
What do you mean?

And for the record, adaptive suspension in sport mode > sport suspension.
sunny5280 commented:
September 5, 2013, 10:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
What do you mean?

And for the record, adaptive suspension in sport mode > sport suspension.
BJ said:

"Regrettably, you chose the softest variant of the F30 suspension"

I'd like to read more about the differences in suspension which determines which one is softer / firmer than another. Specifically how the AWD suspension is softer than comfort suspension.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Fair enough. Just for reference from the previous model years- $35-50K has always been the sweet spot for enthusiast model buy ins offered by BMW. There always seems to be a +$10K over base model addition to get to that sweet spot. BMW has made the entry point more affordable over the years by not requiring going into the M world by offering more capable cars.

E30 M3- $35K in 1988.
E36 M3 or fully loaded 328is- $45K in 1995/1996
E46 ZHP or Base model E46 M3- $45K-48K in 2003
E9x 335is- $50K in 2011
F30 328i + M perf suspension- $45K in 2012
F30 335i + M perf suspension- $55K in 2012.


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Put the E30-E46 money into today's dollars.
av98 commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Put the E30-E46 money into today's dollars.
Not caring about inflation more like historical reference on what gets you in a ready to go to auto-x or track out of the box BMW; there is always a +$10K buy in over the years across all 3 series above MSRP.


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Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Not caring about inflation more like historical reference on what gets you in a ready to go to auto-x or track out of the box BMW; there is always a +$10K buy in over the years across all 3 series above MSRP.


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Point is, your $35k E30 is probably a $60-70k car today, so point is BMWs are likely not any more expensive today than they were in the 80's and 90's.
Capobranco commented:
September 5, 2013, 4:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
How should an enthusiast do so? I was at five dealers prior to buying, only ONE had an m-sport. It wasn't with x-drive. So if you don't have an option to try it out, how would you know? On top of that, how much feel can you get on a 1-2 mile test drive. Simply put, the test drives don't even come close to scratching the surface, let alone allowing you to get good report for the feel of the car.

The overall point of this - the e9x had something going, and the pendulum was on the harsh/firm side, and now it's completely on the other side - floaty/soft. There is a happy medium, and they totally skipped it. Their "answer" was to make a DHP option, and even DHP in sport is not the same as what e9x previously had.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=107

I was thinking about your original point and my response in light of my recent purchase of an F30 328xi. From a relative perspective - I stand by my words. I try to offer an evaluation in terms of my current needs and desires vis-a vis what I perceive to be the original intent of the designers and engineers. Obviously, an M3 and 328i have different purposes but still should retain a feeling of BMWness. Given the choices available to me - I chose a 328xi as the best tool for the job at hand. Would it be better with DHP - absolutely - I reconcile myself to what it is and as I said - it's surprisingly good but it is not great.

Good - great - are relative terms but greatness is a more uncompromising standard. I have never driven a BMW with run flats that I would describe as being great. Runflats imply additional weight and compensating strategies that have not been wholly sorted out. A few weeks ago when I was road testing my 328xi - I was also testing back to back an F30 335i 6MT Sportline. The 335i felt more buttoned down and composed but the price was harshness. In comparison, my M3 is simply sublime - compliant but firm and endowed with near perfect steering. I chose my M3 over a competing 997 not only as the better GT but the better sports car in back to back drives.

So you have a point - in absolute terms - the F30 reflects a different set of priorities. In the name of efficiency the F30 offers us new technologies that compromise traditional BMW attributes. I suspect BMW has not abandoned those traditional attributes but has temporarily offered up interim solutions until technologies can be refined. I am sure in developing the new M3/M4, BMW bought a 991 to see how Porsche did EPS. BMW will eventually figure it out and we will be the beneficiaries. Meanwhile I savor the M3 in absolute terms and I reconcile myself to my 328xi in relative terms - I really do think it is a good daily thrasher but it could be better.

Petition? - sign me up - at the very least, all BMWs should come with DHP as standard - and Xenons too.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 5, 2013, 5:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Put the E30-E46 money into today's dollars.
Versus an E90, we lost crisp handling. What we gained:

iDrive as standard equipment.
Premium sound system as standard equipment.
HD Radio as standard equipment.
Bluetooth as standard equipment.
BMW Assist as standard equipment.
Instrument cluster with enhanced contents.
Black plastic reduction on the center stack.
Gloss chrome console trim.
Aluminum electronic auto shifter.
Thicker, contoured steering wheel.
Enhanced ambient lighting with red/white option.
Superior cup holders w/tray cover option.
Larger air vents for superior cooling.
Curved instrumentaion surfacing for cockpit feel.
Hidden compartment beneath headlamp switch.
Auto dimming exterior mirrors
Auto dimming rearview mirror
Universal garage door opener
Power seats w/memory
Split & fold down rear seats

A 2009 Post-LCI E90 had an MSRP of $33,600. The 2013 F30 has an MSRP of $36,850.

Using an inflation calculator, $33,600 in 2009 is equal to $36,483 in 2013. So that laundry list of standard features and improvements I posted above has a true out-of-pocket real-world incremental cost of $367.

If the sacrifice necessary to make that list of goodies appear was a loss of handling when driving like a maniac, I'm good with it.

BJ
Nedmundo commented:
September 5, 2013, 5:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
This has nothing to do with status anymore. It has to do with the fact that BMW made a major decision to change the 3 Series formula and either people are slow to grasp it or are in denial: You don't get the legendary suspension, handling, or road feel as standard equipment anymore; now you have to pay for it.
My problem is that, even when you think you're paying for that traditional BMW sport sedan feel via the Sport Line, you still don't really get it. The steering is still light and numb, and the suspension is still a little soft, though I would find it perfectly acceptable for my purposes. I don't think one should need to incur further expense with M Performance parts (or M cars) to get that classic tight, planted feel that enthusiasts want from BMW. The Sport Line should do it, as the Sport Package did in previous generations.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 5, 2013, 9:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
My problem is that, even when you think you're paying for that traditional BMW sport sedan feel via the Sport Line, you still don't really get it. The steering is still light and numb, and the suspension is still a little soft, though I would find it perfectly acceptable for my purposes. I don't think one should need to incur further expense with M Performance parts (or M cars) to get that classic tight, planted feel that enthusiasts want from BMW. The Sport Line should do it, as the Sport Package did in previous generations.
What can I tell you, BMW decided that more customers would be excited by a more refined ride and oodles of goodies rather than the inverse.

Sales are incredible, those who own F30's love them, and the 320i will become BMW's best selling car, ever.

The good news? The 1 Series sedan is coming and when it does it'll make all the enthusiasts happy. BMW has created a sequencing problem, nothing more. They released the larger/softer 3 Series first, will release the smaller/tighter 1 Series second. Had they done it the other way around, the enthusiasts would be thrilled but everyone coming out of E90 leases would have bolted for Mercedes or Audi or another brand that offered the same sized car that they were used to.

Slamming the F30 is silly. It's the 1 Sedan that's going to carry the mantle of the E36 heritage. Just need to wait another 24 months or so.

BJ
pointandgo commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's a BMW balancing act. In order to make all those E90 options standard equipment in the F30 (add up the cost of the split folding seat, the auto dimming mirror, Bluetooth, iDrive and all the rest, it's substantial) and keep those monthly lease payments the same something had to give.

BMW's research clearly must show that the average buyer wants those comfort features and can live without the harsh suspension being shoved down their throats and subsidized by the lack of said comfort features. They just flipped the offering. Now you get tech goodies for free, have to pay for the handling.


BMW held on as long as they could, but eventually they were getting their clocks cleaned by Mercedes Benz and Audi who offered fully-featured cars at the expense of performance. The E90 was a stiff rattlebox that required $5,000 worth of options just to get a garage door opener, heated seats, leather, and an infotainment system. Was optioned straight out of 1999.


Last time I checked, the typical 3 Series owner wants creature comforts and a $399 monthly payment and the typical 3 Series enthusiast will spend nice $ for all these mods and tweaks. So BMW merely said "Hmm, what say we give Mr. & Mrs. Babyboomer the gadgets they want and force Boy Racer to pay us for all those suspension mods instead of us giving him a sports ride for free and having him give $3,000 to Turner anyway?"

The 3 Series has always catered to the baby boom generation, and they're all over 50 now, most of 'em are in their 60's and 70's, and none of them go racing in the streets anymore. They've got iPhone's and joint pain. The F30 is perfect for them.

As for you, BMW has taken care of it, you just need to pay them. The M-Performance Suspension is dealer installed, it restores the handling to a level superior to any E90, and solves all the woes. Boiled down to its basic element Furb, your argument is about money and that shouldn't be a barrier for any owner of a $50,000 German luxury car.

BJ
Huh? BJ is "covering" for BMW's "makeover" of the F30 into a "luxury car" after...how many decades of the 3-series being a handling/performance car? Their "bread and butter" car and they did THIS!

Some of us (perhaps longer term BMW owners) remember what BMW USED to stand for. If I wanted a "mushy" suspension and steering feel of GM cars...I would have bought a Buick.

I don't want any Crap about "test drives." With all the changes, BMW dealerships are going to have to let you take the car home for (at least) the weekend.

If you want a luxury car, get a Lexus. If you want a "fake" handling car with all the luxury car features, get the F30.
beden1 commented:
September 5, 2013, 11:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=107


Good - great - are relative terms but greatness is a more uncompromising standard. I have never driven a BMW with run flats that I would describe as being great. Runflats imply additional weight and compensating strategies that have not been wholly sorted out. A few weeks ago when I was road testing my 328xi - I was also testing back to back an F30 335i 6MT Sportline. The 335i felt more buttoned down and composed but the price was harshness. In comparison, my M3 is simply sublime - compliant but firm and endowed with near perfect steering. I chose my M3 over a competing 997 not only as the better GT but the better sports car in back to back drives.


M3s don't compete with 911s as street driven cars, starting with the fact that the M3 coupe weighs 584 lbs. more than a Porsche 911S (M3 coupe - 3,704 lbs.; Porsche 911S - 3,120 lbs. *according to Autoweek). JMHO as an owner of both.
pointandgo commented:
September 6, 2013, 12:06 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertaZ View Post
The fact that they're selling like hotcakes is irrelevant to enthusiasts, just the way that a particular cheap wine may outsell a connoisseur's wine. It doesn't make our opinions less valid. If we've bothered to post on this forum, it's because we like talking about the little things that BMW offers in its cars (or doesn't) that differentiates it from other manufacturers. I agree that the whining of a few enthusiasts is not going to make BMW change anything about its cars. Clearly their studies indicated that the average North American buyer is looking for an automatic tranny in a car that has a softer ride. When I bought my 2000 3 series, the dealer told me that manual transmission vehicles accounted for over 80% of their 3 Series sales. When I bought my 2013 in May, I was told (by the same dealer) that manual transmissions account for under 10% of their 3 Series sales. Obviously the profile of the "typical" 3 Series driver has changed in the last decade and a bit.

As for the E90......I had one up until late July. It handled MUCH better than the F30 Sport Line with optional SS and as a result I am investigating putting H&R springs in the F30. I don't think I would be considered a "jealous" E90 owner, simply an experienced one who can make a valid comparison between the old and the new generations of 3 Series BMWs.

R
I've been to Nappa Valley several times. Comparing it to a car purchase (and to the BMW zealots in here), I guess you would have to taste every bottle before purchase.Many vinyards allow you to do this.

The numerous options available on the F30 (for example) may take MORE TIME than the usual dealer's "run around the block" test drive to appreciate the technical aspects of a well-equpped F30...a LOT more time IMO.

I'm all for a "weekend" with "your potential F30" program. It WILL take that much time...and let's consider the wife.

If you're satisfied with the ASS, fine. If you're satisfied with the "Buick" steering feel, fine (you're obviosly not a return buyer or BMW enthusiast). That's OK...the F30 is now a "luxury car" and maybe that's what you wanted and rejected a Lexus?
beden1 commented:
September 6, 2013, 12:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I've been to Nappa Valley several times. Comparing it to a car purchase (and to the BMW zealots in here), I guess you would have to taste every bottle before purchase.Many vinyards allow you to do this.

The numerous options available on the F30 (for example) may take MORE TIME than the usual dealer's "run around the block" test drive to appreciate the technical aspects of a well-equpped F30...a LOT more time IMO.

I'm all for a "weekend" with "your potential F30" program. It WILL take that much time...and let's consider the wife.

If you're satisfied with the ASS, fine. If you're satisfied with the "Buick" steering feel, fine (you're obviosly not a return buyer or BMW enthusiast). That's OK...the F30 is now a "luxury car" and maybe that's what you wanted and rejected a Lexus?
Sorry about your troubles with the new F30. Since you've been driving the F10 535i as a loaner for a period of time now, I wanted to ask what you think of it?
Capobranco commented:
September 6, 2013, 12:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post


M3s don't compete with 911s as street driven cars. JMHO as an owner of both.
JYHO? Oh Shirley, you jest.
Flaunting two Deutsche rockets
and quibble what’s best?
Do you think you’ll get stares
like a picnic from ants,
when you walk down the beach with two socks in your pants?


Was I awful, uncouth, to give Props to M3?
Guess I need your example to not vulgar, be.
When you’re patting your back
--careful don’t break your arm.
Drink much Porsche Kool-Aid
from their Kool school of charm?
..................................

minn19 commented:
September 6, 2013, 8:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Huh? BJ is "covering" for BMW's "makeover" of the F30 into a "luxury car" after...how many decades of the 3-series being a handling/performance car? Their "bread and butter" car and they did THIS!

Some of us (perhaps longer term BMW owners) remember what BMW USED to stand for. If I wanted a "mushy" suspension and steering feel of GM cars...I would have bought a Buick.

I don't want any Crap about "test drives." With all the changes, BMW dealerships are going to have to let you take the car home for (at least) the weekend.

If you want a luxury car, get a Lexus. If you want a "fake" handling car with all the luxury car features, get the F30.
I am sorry to here the issues you are having with your F30, could this be coloring your overall negative opinion of the car? A couple of serious questions, I am not trying to piss you off more. You are obviously an active member of this forum, so the information about the softer handling characteristics and steering have been out there for some time now. Why did you still by the F30? Also, what do you mean by "fake" handling? Doesn't a car either handle excellent, well, mediocre or poorly?
windsor027 commented:
September 6, 2013, 9:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
My problem is that, even when you think you're paying for that traditional BMW sport sedan feel via the Sport Line, you still don't really get it. The steering is still light and numb, and the suspension is still a little soft, though I would find it perfectly acceptable for my purposes. I don't think one should need to incur further expense with M Performance parts (or M cars) to get that classic tight, planted feel that enthusiasts want from BMW. The Sport Line should do it, as the Sport Package did in previous generations.
First from what I know the M-sport suspension and the sport suspension is the same suspension. When you order the M-sport you simply getting cosmetic changes not performance changes.

I totally disagree also that in sport mode with DHP the F30 suspension is softer than the E90 sport. I believe you are equating "harshness" with "tight" suspension. Steering feel, yes I will give you that, the E90 had a more "communicative" steering feel but not that much more. hell even on the same care comfort to sport make a huge difference, especially with DHP, you feel you are driving a completely different car, atleast I do.

I have to agree with BJ and his post #40. BMW has made the F30 fit many different "tastes" and budgets.

So you want a super fast sport sedan? Get the Sport-line 335i with DHP. You want a fast sport sedan? Get the 328i with DHP. you want to go budget? Get the base 320i, but don't expect this configuration to give you the thrills and driving experience of a 335i with DHP. Might as well get a Honda Accord.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 6, 2013, 10:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Huh? BJ is "covering" for BMW's "makeover" of the F30 into a "luxury car" after...how many decades of the 3-series being a handling/performance car? Their "bread and butter" car and they did THIS!

Some of us (perhaps longer term BMW owners) remember what BMW USED to stand for. If I wanted a "mushy" suspension and steering feel of GM cars...I would have bought a Buick.

I don't want any Crap about "test drives." With all the changes, BMW dealerships are going to have to let you take the car home for (at least) the weekend.

If you want a luxury car, get a Lexus. If you want a "fake" handling car with all the luxury car features, get the F30.
You are out of your mind if you think that the 3 Series has been a "handling/performance" car. I mean, seriously?

The 3 Series has always been a luxury sedan that had sporty tendencies, a car that was always 30-50% more expensive than a comparable car from another maker. For decades, you paid an extra $10,000 to get a car with fewer options and amenities than an Acura. And it's a Sedan. Four doors. Hauls the kiddies and the kibble in style.

If I want a luxury car, get a Lexus? LOL. How about if you want a sports car, you go buy a sports car. Stop taking a $50,000 German luxury car and holding it up to some ridiculous standard that can never be met. Take a look at all the E90 and F30 drivers on the road. They're 50 year old dad's and 50 year old trophy wives. Give it a rest already. Buy the right car for a change. Start there.

BJ
WillInDenver commented:
September 6, 2013, 10:42 am

I just get the sense that this whole argument, being played out all day every day on BMW forums worldwide, is a form of misplaced nostalgia for the good old days.

BMWs are different than they were 20 years ago. So are TVs, so is food, so is music, so is financial services, and so is essentially everything around us. We're living in a world where companies must grow, be acquired, or die, and since most of them prefer the first option they do what they need to do in order to win market share and grow revenue. This means, precisely, that BMW is now going for the Lexus target market and they know they need to make some changes to the product in order to attract those people. They are also facing some crippling efficiency and safety rules. Thankfully, they haven't entirely left behind the people who like fast luxury cars that handle well as they go through all this. A 328 goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, people.

BMW makes some fantastic cars. I can't believe the level of luxury and performance that are both present in my F10 535. Nobody has to like the cars BMW is making right now. But when some of you guys suggest that BMW has lost its way, has made mistakes, or is making products in some objective way inferior to what they made in the 80s and 90s - you really aren't understanding that BMW is a business literally threatened with death as an entity every single day.
av98 commented:
September 6, 2013, 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Sorry, I didn't word my post very well. It was more in reference to Furby's build. As far as I know, DHP is the only other suspension option for xDrive models. So I was comparing the cost between DHP and similar aftermarket systems.

I'll let you and BJ fight over whose smoking what.

Has any aftermarket company released full coil overs for the xDrives yet? I know H&R has springs for them, that is all that I have seen though. Love my car, but I to would like to stiffen it up a bit.
Check out JamesonViggen's EB2 Stage thread, best way to get closer to the previous generation 3 series feel. His mods are simple and reasonably well thought out too- Swap the crappy RFTs for real tires- Michelin PSS + H&R springs. I would throw in the M performance suspension + the M Sport sways if you don't already have the M sport. If the brake bit is not enough and you don't have the M Sport package, I'd spring for the M sport pads or you can go with the M Performance brake upgrade.
minn19 commented:
September 6, 2013, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Check out JamesonViggen's EB2 Stage thread, best way to get closer to the previous generation 3 series feel. His mods are simple and reasonably well thought out too- Swap the crappy RFTs for real tires- Michelin PSS + H&R springs. I would throw in the M performance suspension + the M Sport sways if you don't already have the M sport. If the brake bit is not enough and you don't have the M Sport package, I'd spring for the M sport pads or you can go with the M Performance brake upgrade.
Thanks av98. I agree, I love Jamesons car, but I have xDrive and as I understand it you can't get M performance suspension for xDrive yet. At least according to my dealer and BMW's website. I did swap the RFT's and am running 18" 245/40 PSS which made a very nice difference already. I was thinking about doing the H&R springs, but I think I want to do a full coil over/spring swap all at once and be done with it. Again from looking at different websites it doesn't look like anybody is offering coil overs for xDrives yet.

Gonna opt for M Sport brakes around 30,000 miles when my front pads are probably due to be replaced on my car. I have a Sport Line 328 xDrive, do the M performance sways fit my car?
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 6, 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Thanks av98. I agree, I love Jamesons car, but I have xDrive and as I understand it you can't get M performance suspension for xDrive yet. At least according to my dealer and BMW's website. I did swap the RFT's and am running 18" 245/40 PSS which made a very nice difference already. I was thinking about doing the H&R springs, but I think I want to do a full coil over/spring swap all at once and be done with it. Again from looking at different websites it doesn't look like anybody is offering coil overs for xDrives yet.

Gonna opt for M Sport brakes around 30,000 miles when my front pads are probably due to be replaced on my car. I have a Sport Line 328 xDrive, do the M performance sways fit my car?
Just curious, as I know many people around here lease... Are you guys doing all these mods on leased vehicles and then just removing any aftermarket parts before turn-in? Are there restrictions in our lease agreements regarding what we can/can't mod regardless of whether it's reversed before it's returned?

I don't really plan to do much of anything to my car regardless, other than maybe tires...at least once I blow one of the RFTs. But I was just wondering what limits we have on leased vehicles...if any.
minn19 commented:
September 6, 2013, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
Just curious, as I know many people around here lease... Are you guys doing all these mods on leased vehicles and then just removing any aftermarket parts before turn-in? Are there restrictions in our lease agreements regarding what we can/can't mod regardless of whether it's reversed before it's returned?

I don't really plan to do much of anything to my car regardless, other than maybe tires...at least once I blow one of the RFTs. But I was just wondering what limits we have on leased vehicles...if any.
I bought mine and am hoping to keep it for 7-10 years for my daily driver. Then pay it off in 3-4 years and look at leasing/buying an M1/2/3/4 series or Cayman. I know that is a wide range, but who knows what lifes priorities will look like in 4ish years. More info than you probably needed, but that is my car ideas, needs, wants for the present and future.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 6, 2013, 2:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I just get the sense that this whole argument, being played out all day every day on BMW forums worldwide, is a form of misplaced nostalgia for the good old days.

BMWs are different than they were 20 years ago. So are TVs, so is food, so is music, so is financial services, and so is essentially everything around us. We're living in a world where companies must grow, be acquired, or die, and since most of them prefer the first option they do what they need to do in order to win market share and grow revenue. This means, precisely, that BMW is now going for the Lexus target market and they know they need to make some changes to the product in order to attract those people. They are also facing some crippling efficiency and safety rules. Thankfully, they haven't entirely left behind the people who like fast luxury cars that handle well as they go through all this. A 328 goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, people.

BMW makes some fantastic cars. I can't believe the level of luxury and performance that are both present in my F10 535. Nobody has to like the cars BMW is making right now. But when some of you guys suggest that BMW has lost its way, has made mistakes, or is making products in some objective way inferior to what they made in the 80s and 90s - you really aren't understanding that BMW is a business literally threatened with death as an entity every single day.
Bravo.

My measly 2013 F30 328i with a paltry 4 cylinder engine does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. That's faster than a 1996 M3.

BJ
EddieB commented:
September 6, 2013, 2:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bravo.

My measly 2013 F30 328i with a paltry 4 cylinder engine does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. That's faster than a 1996 M3.

BJ
Yes the times are a changin'. My friend got the very first 3 Series (320i) back in the late 70s. Compare that to an F30 and there ain't no comparing.
av98 commented:
September 6, 2013, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bravo.

My measly 2013 F30 328i with a paltry 4 cylinder engine does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. That's faster than a 1996 M3.

BJ
Try a different reference point, 96 M3s with the S52 does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3#E36_performance
Elk commented:
September 6, 2013, 6:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
If I wanted a "mushy" suspension and steering feel of GM cars...
Like a Corvette
or a CTS
or an ATS
or a Camarao SS
or a Cobalt SS that beats a 335 on a road course
or . . .

If these are "mushy," what is an F30? Jello?
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 6, 2013, 6:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Try a different reference point, 96 M3s with the S52 does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3#E36_performance
That is a manual. The F30 328 6mt does 5.4-5.6 and traps a couple mph higher. My N20 made a bit more whp and loads more tq than my s52 on the same dyno.
windsor027 commented:
September 6, 2013, 6:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You are out of your mind if you think that the 3 Series has been a "handling/performance" car. I mean, seriously?

The 3 Series has always been a luxury sedan that had sporty tendencies, a car that was always 30-50% more expensive than a comparable car from another maker. For decades, you paid an extra $10,000 to get a car with fewer options and amenities than an Acura. And it's a Sedan. Four doors. Hauls the kiddies and the kibble in style.

If I want a luxury car, get a Lexus? LOL. How about if you want a sports car, you go buy a sports car. Stop taking a $50,000 German luxury car and holding it up to some ridiculous standard that can never be met. Take a look at all the E90 and F30 drivers on the road. They're 50 year old dad's and 50 year old trophy wives. Give it a rest already. Buy the right car for a change. Start there.

BJ
BJ you are bring forth the correct arguments but in the end you F*** it all up by equating what you bought with every F30 out there dude. The F30 in my configuration is a sport sedan. In your configuration its a luxury cruiser. That is the brilliance of chassis engineering, electronics, suspension tuning and quality build. Thus your argument which is correct, the current F30 is not one shoe fits all. You can put your money down and get what you want. How damn great is that? And you are correct don't bitch about your base 320i not being fast enough or have a go-kart like handling. Spend the money to get exactly that.

What you are saying in the above post would be true if the only F30 available was yours, namely no sport suspension, no DHP, no 300 HP engine, no sport mode, only comfort and eco modes. But that's not the case now is it.
av98 commented:
September 6, 2013, 7:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
That is a manual. The F30 328 6mt does 5.4-5.6 and traps a couple mph higher. My N20 made a bit more whp and loads more tq than my s52 on the same dyno.
What's your point about a current car performing equivalent to a 17 year old car (I'd say that old M3 was way ahead of it's time; considering it took 17 years for something mid-pack current model year to catch up)? Subie STIs and Mitsu EVOs have been doing 0-60 times= 5 second flat for years with a 2.0T 4 banger. This is a useless argument. Oh yeah, all these cars are MT and weight more than the M3. The only great take away from your statement is proving that having more HP & Trq can overcome weight.
Jamesonsviggen commented:
September 6, 2013, 7:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
What's your point about a current car performing equivalent to a 17 year old car (I'd say that old M3 was way ahead of it's time; considering it took 17 years for something mid-pack current model year to catch up)? Subie STIs and Mitsu EVOs have been doing 0-60 times= 5 second flat for years with a 2.0T 4 banger. This is a useless argument. Oh yeah, all these cars are MT and weight more than the M3. The only great take away from your statement is proving that having more HP & Trq can overcome weight.
328 is not equivelant to the old M3, point is the BASE 3 now equals the performance of the 95-99 M3. That's progress. I only chimed in when you countered BJ about 0-60 stats with more accurate info.
Bill-SD commented:
September 6, 2013, 8:58 pm

Damn, this thread will never end

I still say that if you do your research and test drive before buying, you should have a pretty good idea what you're getting. Maybe the car is not what you'd like it to be (or think it should be), but it is what it is. If I paid $40-50k for a car and then complained about the way it drives, people would call me a fool. And comparing it to Altima's, Buick's, etc....come on.
captainaudio commented:
September 6, 2013, 9:22 pm

A test drive at the dealer for a few minutes does not give a very complete picture. I test drove several e93 and went with the sport suspension as both my wife and I preferred the way it drove compared to the base suspension.
In spite of the test drives and on spite of driving the car 2000 miles in South Florida after I picked it up I was totally unprepared for the "Pothole Explosion" issue on New York area roads.

In the case of the 750Lix I was able to arrange an extended trst drive over the 4 dau Memorial Day Weekend and I knew exactly how the car drove on the environment it would be used in,

CA


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boltjaM3s commented:
September 6, 2013, 11:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
BJ you are bring forth the correct arguments but in the end you F*** it all up by equating what you bought with every F30 out there dude. The F30 in my configuration is a sport sedan. In your configuration its a luxury cruiser. That is the brilliance of chassis engineering, electronics, suspension tuning and quality build. Thus your argument which is correct, the current F30 is not one shoe fits all. You can put your money down and get what you want. How damn great is that? And you are correct don't bitch about your base 320i not being fast enough or have a go-kart like handling. Spend the money to get exactly that.

What you are saying in the above post would be true if the only F30 available was yours, namely no sport suspension, no DHP, no 300 HP engine, no sport mode, only comfort and eco modes. But that's not the case now is it.
Not really.

To get the car configured to be sporty looking and a fairly-close demon on the racetrack you're looking at a minimum of a 335i ($43,200) M-Sport line ($3,100) and the parts/labor for the M-Performance Suspension ($2,500). That's $48,800.

So when I say "stop taking a $50,000 German luxury sedan and treating it like it's some sportscar" you can read that two ways:

1. The F30 is meant to be a $50,000 luxury car. Ripping out all the luxo features and making it into some $32,000 stripper is silly because you could be getting a Honda for that kind of money with better features.

2. Those who load up their F30 with the tightest possible suspensions and crispest possible handling are still going to be disappointed even if spending $50,000 because they could have bought a $25,000 Honda, thrown in $10,000 in performance options and have a better sportscar.

The main takeaway is that there is a brand tax for BMW to the tune of 30%. That's what a luxury brand commands. Rolex, DeBeers, Ralph Lauren, Vera Wang, they all sell the same stuff you can buy at Target, slap a name on it, boom, get that extra vig for the brand. Functionally, a $50,000 sport line BMW and a $35,000 modded Honda are the same. So those who take the BMW are doing so for the brand, for the roundel, not for any reason related to performance, at least not anymore.

BJ
BmwFlooner commented:
September 7, 2013, 12:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
So those who take the BMW are doing so for the brand, for the roundel, not for any reason related to performance, at least not anymore.
I think that's too broad a stroke. Performance certainly entered into my purchase decision.

But so did:
* Does it come in a manual?
* Does it *not* have a touchscreen?
* Large enough to fit a rear facing carseat?
* Driver oriented cockpit?
* etc...

To be honest the iDrive and the performance were the 2 main draws for me to BMW (I absolutely despise touchscreen interfaces). But without the sporty performance aspect it would've been a no.

Maybe I'm one of the few who didn't buy it for the Roundel and I'm the exception to your rule? BMW crossed out more lines on my requirements list than any other brand.

A Rolex and a Casio both tell time, but - finances permitting - it's all about the interface. Sometimes the brand is just a side effect.
windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 6:38 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Not really.

To get the car configured to be sporty looking and a fairly-close demon on the racetrack you're looking at a minimum of a 335i ($43,200) M-Sport line ($3,100) and the parts/labor for the M-Performance Suspension ($2,500). That's $48,800.

So when I say "stop taking a $50,000 German luxury sedan and treating it like it's some sportscar" you can read that two ways:

1. The F30 is meant to be a $50,000 luxury car. Ripping out all the luxo features and making it into some $32,000 stripper is silly because you could be getting a Honda for that kind of money with better features.

2. Those who load up their F30 with the tightest possible suspensions and crispest possible handling are still going to be disappointed even if spending $50,000 because they could have bought a $25,000 Honda, thrown in $10,000 in performance options and have a better sportscar.

The main takeaway is that there is a brand tax for BMW to the tune of 30%. That's what a luxury brand commands. Rolex, DeBeers, Ralph Lauren, Vera Wang, they all sell the same stuff you can buy at Target, slap a name on it, boom, get that extra vig for the brand. Functionally, a $50,000 sport line BMW and a $35,000 modded Honda are the same. So those who take the BMW are doing so for the brand, for the roundel, not for any reason related to performance, at least not anymore.

BJ
You are being totally silly now. Getting a Honda and slapping aftermarket pieces will not get you the refinement that comes in a BMW, Audi or a MB. To say that my car is the same as a Honda is totally nuts. How are they the same. In performance? In refinement? 20k was well worth it to me to get what I have believe me.

Your first statement is exactly what I am talking about, to get an F30 that is a true sport sedan you need a 335i sportline with DHP period. That is the formula (forget the M-performance crap, its all cosmetic). Then you have a crazy fast car, that can be very comfortable in comfort mode and if you are that type of person you take it to the track and have a fun weekend.

What you drive doesn't even come close, you went for soft, and new tech features for the money you wanted to spend to entertain you. Nothing wrong with that but please don't insist that every F30 is that way.

Hell you were the one that came back 3 months after you got your car and asked for advice on how to make the suspension a little tighter, which says to me you got tripped up by your own logic of what you wanted out of your car. Be honest if you did it all over again would you choose DHP also? Or a sportline? You bet your ass you would, because as much as you say this is a luxury car you want to feel at least some of the time as a sport sedan.
Michael Schott commented:
September 7, 2013, 8:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
You are being totally silly now. Getting a Honda and slapping aftermarket pieces will not get you the refinement that comes in a BMW, Audi or a MB. To say that my car is the same as a Honda is totally nuts. How are they the same. In performance? In refinement? 20k was well worth it to me to get what I have believe me.

Your first statement is exactly what I am talking about, to get an F30 that is a true sport sedan you need a 335i sportline with DHP period. That is the formula (forget the M-performance crap, its all cosmetic). Then you have a crazy fast car, that can be very comfortable in comfort mode and if you are that type of person you take it to the track and have a fun weekend.

What you drive doesn't even come close, you went for soft, and new tech features for the money you wanted to spend to entertain you. Nothing wrong with that but please don't insist that every F30 is that way.

Hell you were the one that came back 3 months after you got your car and asked for advice on how to make the suspension a little tighter, which says to me you got tripped up by your own logic of what you wanted out of your car. Be honest if you did it all over again would you choose DHP also? Or a sportline? You bet your ass you would, because as much as you say this is a luxury car you want to feel at least some of the time as a sport sedan.
I have to agree. Honda makes fine FWD family cars. No amount of money will make one handle like a RWD car nor will it add the chassis refinement of an F30. While the F30 may be softer than an E90, it's still a RWD car with a very stiff chassis and this is the basis for a great luxury sport sedan. A Sportline is a great modern version of a BMW only marred by the required and ubiquitous EPS. It may not be a track star but those who did this with an E90 had to heavily mod their cars as well.
f30jojo commented:
September 7, 2013, 9:34 am

Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car. I think most people's ego feels better when they say or think it's a luxury sedan. FYI, luxury does not mean back up cameras, iPod connectivity, active cruise... Those are nice features, Don't get me wrong. But they don't make it luxury. Mercedes S class, BMW 7, Audi 8 are luxury cars. Hell even a 5 series to me is borderline. Anyway my point is connectivity doesn't mean luxury. And by the way, just my opinion... A 320i sport pkg is just as much a sport sedan as a 335i dhp. Agreed the 335 is faster in a straight line, but in technical twisties. They're the same car, sorry to bust your bubble. Also, you can load up a 320 with just about every option a 335 has except dhp, but honestly I'd take the true static M suspension over that anyway.

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Elk commented:
September 7, 2013, 10:32 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car.
Or a sports car.

It is a competent entry level luxury car that is capable of getting out of its own way. It performs this mixed role admirably.
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 7, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car. I think most people's ego feels better when they say or think it's a luxury sedan. FYI, luxury does not mean back up cameras, iPod connectivity, active cruise... Those are nice features, Don't get me wrong. But they don't make it luxury. Mercedes S class, BMW 7, Audi 8 are luxury cars. Hell even a 5 series to me is borderline. Anyway my point is connectivity doesn't mean luxury.

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That's a bit silly. The fact that a 3 series isn't a 7 series doesn't make it not a luxury vehicle. The 3 is a solid entry level luxury sedan. I'm sure there's Bentley drivers snickering at the pedestrian 7s they see on the road as well.

I agree that tech and connectivity doesn't define luxury...but a premium priced vehicle in its segment with premium materials and a premium brand is pretty much the definition of a luxury vehicle.

It seems your definition of luxury is simply giant and expensive... I was even buying into it a bit til you started with the bit about the 5 being borderline...then it just started to sound pretentious and a bit laughable




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windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car. I think most people's ego feels better when they say or think it's a luxury sedan. FYI, luxury does not mean back up cameras, iPod connectivity, active cruise... Those are nice features, Don't get me wrong. But they don't make it luxury. Mercedes S class, BMW 7, Audi 8 are luxury cars. Hell even a 5 series to me is borderline. Anyway my point is connectivity doesn't mean luxury. And by the way, just my opinion... A 320i sport pkg is just as much a sport sedan as a 335i dhp. Agreed the 335 is faster in a straight line, but in technical twisties. They're the same car, sorry to bust your bubble. Also, you can load up a 320 with just about every option a 335 has except dhp, but honestly I'd take the true static M suspension over that anyway.

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The same car? are you kidding me? We are talking a difference of over 100 HP torque and different brakes. Chassis is the same, but performance wise they are not even close to the same car. And IMO anyone that opts for a fully loaded 320i when he can have a 335i sportline base for a few thousand more has no business buying a BMW. In such a case I would agree with BJ get a fully loaded Honda Accord for the same bucks or a G37 Infinity.
Trey100 commented:
September 7, 2013, 12:55 pm

I'm sure people who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce think an S class is not a luxury car. C'mon. Obviously there are many levels of luxury. The 3 series (with at least leather) is an entry level of luxury vehicle.

And a 320 is not a 335. In fact , I'm disappointed that it is even offered. The 328 was a good entry level 3 series.


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windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey100 View Post
I'm sure people who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce think an S class is not a luxury car. C'mon. Obviously there are many levels of luxury. The 3 series (with at least leather) is an entry level of luxury vehicle.

And a 320 is not a 335. In fact , I'm disappointed that it is even offered. The 328 was a good entry level 3 series.


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This. The ony reason why BMW has the 318i and the 320i is because of tax laws in Europe where more than 2 liter cars get taxed at preposterous rates.
minn19 commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
The same car? are you kidding me? We are talking a difference of over 100 HP torque and different brakes. Chassis is the same, but performance wise they are not even close to the same car. And IMO anyone that opts for a fully loaded 320i when he can have a 335i sportline base for a few thousand more has no business buying a BMW. In such a case I would agree with BJ get a fully loaded Honda Accord for the same bucks or a G37 Infinity.
Why in the hell would somebody have "no business" buying a fully loaded 320? Is it really that hard for some people to understand that not all people are same and have different needs, wants and tastes? Windsor, you love your 335, and it is in awesome car which is what YOU want. Maybe some people don't care about power and tight suspension. They want a BMW for the tech, better then average handling (fun factor) to drive and great gas mileage. All of the things that a fully loaded 320i can fulfill for some people. Just look at the sales the 3 series is doing, including the 320i.

No matter if it has a HUD, Xenon's, NAV, inline 6 blah friggen blah...If it has the roundel it is a f*ucking BMW in some way. Sheesh, I understand this is a car forum, but why are some of you people so hung up some weird sh**? Buy and drive the car you love, but if you seriously look down on other people buying and driving what they love, then you have to much free time to worry about really absurd things.

As for luxury, it is all relative. If you step in to ANY 3 series from a Corolla or like car then it is probably going to feel luxurious. Then you get use to the 3 series and move up from there and so on.
minn19 commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
This. The ony reason why BMW has the 318i and the 320i is because of tax laws in Europe where more than 2 liter cars get taxed at preposterous rates.
Geez, more sales couldn't have anything to do with it either could it? But, I guess as some people think, BMW is not really in business to make money and should only make a very small line up of cars tailored exactly to their tastes and wants otherwise they all day on these forums that BMW sucks.
windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Geez, more sales couldn't have anything to do with it either could it? But, I guess as some people think, BMW is not really in business to make money and should only make a very small line up of cars tailored exactly to their tastes and wants otherwise they all day on these forums that BMW sucks.
Like I told you before I think you have a reading comprehension problem. Why you getting on my case, unless you want to be argumentative. That is exactly what I said. They need to sell these cars with the smaller displacement so they circumvent the displacement laws that are through out the world. We don't have that issue here however so why buy an anemic F30 when you can go easy on the options and get that much more performance.

And all these options you think you need are the money makers for BMW. hell you can buy a very good GPS for 200 dollars and BMW is charging you for the same technology 5 times that.
Michael Schott commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey100 View Post
I'm sure people who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce think an S class is not a luxury car. C'mon. Obviously there are many levels of luxury. The 3 series (with at least leather) is an entry level of luxury vehicle.

And a 320 is not a 335. In fact , I'm disappointed that it is even offered. The 328 was a good entry level 3 series.


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The reason the 320 exists is the 328 starts at over $38K with destination charge. Add metallic paint and leather and it's over $40K. There was no entry level F30 until the 320 arrived. To put it in perspective, my 2011 E90 with leather, metallic, heated seats and rear shades was almost $37K now the equivalent is over $40K. And C class Mercedes and A4's can be had for under $35K.
Michael Schott commented:
September 7, 2013, 1:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Like I told you before I think you have a reading comprehension problem. Why you getting on my case, unless you want to be argumentative. That is exactly what I said. They need to sell these cars with the smaller displacement so they circumvent the displacement laws that are through out the world. We don't have that issue here however so why buy an anemic F30 when you can go easy on the options and get that much more performance.

And all these options you think you need are the money makers for BMW. hell you can buy a very good GPS for 200 dollars and BMW is charging you for the same technology 5 times that.
To be fair, BMW is not alone in this and there is more to the Tech package than just Nav.
minn19 commented:
September 7, 2013, 2:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Like I told you before I think you have a reading comprehension problem. Why you getting on my case, unless you want to be argumentative. That is exactly what I said. They need to sell these cars with the smaller displacement so they circumvent the displacement laws that are through out the world. We don't have that issue here however so why buy an anemic F30 when you can go easy on the options and get that much more performance.

And all these options you think you need are the money makers for BMW. hell you can buy a very good GPS for 200 dollars and BMW is charging you for the same technology 5 times that.
Alright, this is what, the third time you have insinuated I am dumb, we can go down that road. But first, if you read my other posts, you would understand that some people LIKE cars in that class. Smaller, lighter (fun) cars filled with tech for lower money and get great gas mileage. It's not just laws and gas prices, some people from what you utterly fail to understand, actually like these cars more than yours. They are different from you, can you not understand that other people like different things from you? I wouldn't pay $2000 - $4000 for NAV/Tech system either. But, people do, so hence their is a market for it and almost/if not all car manufacturers offer them. But, the difference between you and I is I don't care what people spend their money on unlike you. If it makes you happy buy whatever you want. I don't give a sh**.

As for you calling me ignorant, dumb or whatever other insults you are thinking, save it. Here is my retort to your insults. You are an extremely narrow minded person that is the spot on absolute poster child as to why people think BMW owners are d-bags. Don't bother responding, because you will just cherry pick the points you think help your argument and claim I don't know how to read while ignoring my questions and points to you. I'm done with you. Final insult: have fun living life with your head in the sand or elsewhere in your anatomy.
windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
To be fair, BMW is not alone in this and there is more to the Tech package than just Nav.
No there isn't, you can opt out of the Tech package and get just the NAV, and that is exactly what I did because I didn't care for the HUD. You are correct every car manufacture out there is charging inflated prices for NAV. I don't blame them this is how they make some very easy money.
windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Alright, this is what, the third time you have insinuated I am dumb, we can go down that road. But first, if you read my other posts, you would understand that some people LIKE cars in that class. Smaller, lighter (fun) cars filled with tech for lower money and get great gas mileage. It's not just laws and gas prices, some people from what you utterly fail to understand, actually like these cars more than yours. They are different from you, can you not understand that other people like different things from you? I wouldn't pay $2000 - $4000 for NAV/Tech system either. But, people do, so hence their is a market for it and almost/if not all car manufacturers offer them. But, the difference between you and I is I don't care what people spend their money on unlike you. If it makes you happy buy whatever you want. I don't give a sh**.

As for you calling me ignorant, dumb or whatever other insults you are thinking, save it. Here is my retort to your insults. You are an extremely narrow minded person that is the spot on absolute poster child as to why people think BMW owners are d-bags. Don't bother responding, because you will just cherry pick the points you think help your argument and claim I don't know how to read while ignoring my questions and points to you. I'm done with you. Final insult: have fun living life with your head in the sand or elsewhere in your anatomy.
First of all I don't believe I called you dumb or any other names for that matter. Point me to a post that I have called you dumb. Saying you have a reading comprehension problem doesn't mean I think you are dumb. It means you are reading things and coming to conclusions that have nothing with what you read. Case and point your answer to my post about the 318i and 320i. Essentially in an angry tone you were saying the exact same thing I was saying, namely BMW has to have these lesser powered F30s to allow more people to buy their product.

I don't give a damn where people spend their money as long as they have it. Yes I have a problem when they go into debt to buy **** and please don't tell me you don't. I mean were you ok with all these people buying houses they couldn't possibly afford which led to the housing crisis? oh I forgot they were misled by the big bad banks.

So I guess we have the same issue here: BMW "misled" some buyers and thus the reason for this thread. We need a petition to make the suspension sportier. Well guess what. there is such a suspension but these people didn't do their homework, or opted for the "sexy" tech package instead of DHP. They opted for the luxury line, instead of the Sportline. Now they are pissed, somehow BMW cheated them. Never mind the fact that BMW even gave anyone a chance to come to a BMW event to try their cars and pay them 1,000 dollars for doing so.

The reason why I am successful as I assume many other successful people in here is because I take the time to research, investigate and plan before I make any financial move, let along a 52K move. If I fail to get what I want is on me and no one else. So yea its totally dumb for me for someone to spend over 40k on a fully loaded 320i and then bitch about not having the getup and go it should.

Again notice, unike you I didn't call you any names, but you keep this up newbie I bet a few forum members will get very annoyed with you. Some already have.
vern commented:
September 7, 2013, 5:48 pm

Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
windsor027 commented:
September 7, 2013, 9:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
Exactly my point Vern, but I guess we live in a society that others need to take the blame for our mistakes.
EddieB commented:
September 7, 2013, 9:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
I am afraid there are few CAs that know ****e. Mine admitted I knew more than she. As with your doctor, lawyer and mechanic, you must be your own advocate.
captainaudio commented:
September 7, 2013, 9:53 pm

I took similar flack when I dared to criticize the harshness of the E93 sport suspension. I thoroughly researched the purchase, went to several dealers and test drove several cars. In spite of all of that I was totally unprepared for "pothole explosions", which is a well document issue with the E9x sport suspension. I have spoken to reps from BMWNA who acknowledged that it was an issue.

When I posted my concerns I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, I didn't appreciate that great BMW engineering and of course received the apparently obligatory "Buy a Lexus" response.

The bottom line is that if BMW had not received feedback from unhappy customers they may not have rectified the issue. Now many feel that they may have gone too far in the other direction and those who feel that way should feel free to express their concerns.

IMO there is no valid reason for excessive body roll. It is absolutely possible to design a suspension that handles poor road surfaces without jarring the occupants or upsetting the car, has good road feel and steering feed back and that corners without excessive body roll. To accept anything less or to dismiss those who do not, you are not doing a service to yourself, other owners or to BMW.

The squeaky wheel gets oiled first. You can have the best of both worlds and you should demand nothing less.

CA




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captainaudio commented:
September 7, 2013, 10:00 pm

Deleted
av98 commented:
September 7, 2013, 10:53 pm

Back to the original point of this thread, has anybody written to BMWNA or given the same feedback to their respective dealer in force?

Especially for the AWD component of this thread, seems that you are the most affected w/o DHP or other upgrade paths via the factory for improvement or correction.


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floydarogers commented:
September 8, 2013, 12:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Especially for the AWD component of this thread, seems that you are the most affected w/o DHP or other upgrade paths via the factory for improvement or correction.
xDrive has been this way since 2001 when the 'xi came back. The advent of the DHP option on xDrive cars is a 200% improvement over the previous situation.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 8, 2013, 1:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I took similar flack when I dared to criticize the harshness of the E93 sport suspension. I thoroughly researched the purchase, went to several dealers and test drove several cars. In spite of all of that I was totally unprepared for "pothole explosions", which is a well document issue with the E9x sport suspension. I have spoken to reps from BMWNA who acknowledged that it was an issue.

When I posted my concerns I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, I didn't appreciate that great BMW engineering and of course received the apparently "Buy a Lexus" response.

The bottom line is that if BMW had not received feedback from unhappy customers they may not have rectified the issue. Now many feel that they may have gone too far in the other direction and those who feel that way should towel free to express their concerns.

CA


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-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 8, 2013, 1:40 am

This is the new BMW. Love it or hate it. My next car purchase won't be a BMW in two years if it stays like this. I don't think BMW had struck the right balance of comfort and sport.


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f30jojo commented:
September 8, 2013, 6:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
The same car? are you kidding me? We are talking a difference of over 100 HP torque and different brakes. Chassis is the same, but performance wise they are not even close to the same car. And IMO anyone that opts for a fully loaded 320i when he can have a 335i sportline base for a few thousand more has no business buying a BMW. In such a case I would agree with BJ get a fully loaded Honda Accord for the same bucks or a G37 Infinity.
First, I bought my WIFE a loaded 320. it's nit my daily driver. I drive it from time to time and with the amazing sport seats to the M suspension and steering wheel... It's a blast to drive. The point is, the 320 is a perfect car for housewives and teenage daughters. IMO, the power is more than adequate anyway. alot of BMW owners forget there use to be a time (2007 and earlier) that the N54, N55 didn't exist. It's a great motor no doubt. But it's not what makes a BMW a BMW. Use to be a time 300hp meant an M3, or hell even a e34 m5 had 340hp.

Back on topic. Will your 335 embarrass my wife's 320 at a red light? Absolutely. with that said. Will that same 320 with m suspension (and a proper driver) hold it's own against a 335 on a technical, tight twisty, back road? Also do you think 99 percent of people know the difference between a 335 and a 320??? Anyone who's ever done any kind of racing knows a chassis will beat more power every time. Besides, and I've said this before , if it's all about power. Go buy a Boss 302 mustang and essentially own a M3.

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f30jojo commented:
September 8, 2013, 6:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
This is the new BMW. Love it or hate it. My next car purchase won't be a BMW in two years if it stays like this. I don't think BMW had struck the right balance of comfort and sport.


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Sorta agree with you, kinda. Problem is even as BMW is getting softer around the edges. They're still the best at what they do. Audi, Mercedes, infinity, Lexus still cannot capture the feeling of driving a BMW. That's number one why I'll stick around . I must admit the new jaguar xf, and even the Audi a6 are gorgeous vehicles.

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av98 commented:
September 8, 2013, 7:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Back on topic. Will your 335 embarrass my wife's 320 at a red light? Absolutely. with that said. Will that same 320 with m suspension (and a proper driver) hold it's own against a 335 on a technical, tight twisty, back road? Also do you think 99 percent of people know the difference between a 335 and a 320??? Anyone who's ever done any kind of racing knows a chassis will beat more power every time. Besides, and I've said this before , if it's all about power. Go buy a Boss 302 mustang and essentially own a M3.

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Amen, it's all about catching em in the corners with underpowered cars to really expose how good a driver they are.


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RobertaZ commented:
September 8, 2013, 8:50 am

I also feel that my E90 (with SS) absolutely blew my F30 (with 704 SS) away in both cornering and ride integrity. I used to ignore speed bumps in the E90. The F30 bangs harshly if I try to do that.

So, I'll be putting H&R springs in my F30 in the next few weeks. I don't expect it to handle like my E90, but it will hopefully handle the bumps and corners a bit better.
windsor027 commented:
September 8, 2013, 9:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Back on topic. Will your 335 embarrass my wife's 320 at a red light? Absolutely. with that said. Will that same 320 with m suspension (and a proper driver) hold it's own against a 335 on a technical, tight twisty, back road? Also do you think 99 percent of people know the difference between a 335 and a 320??? Anyone who's ever done any kind of racing knows a chassis will beat more power every time. Besides, and I've said this before , if it's all about power. Go buy a Boss 302 mustang and essentially own a M3.

Sent from my LT18i using BimmerApp mobile app
There is way too much difference in torque and HP for the 320 to even come close to a 335i even in a technical track. Assuming that the 335i is a sportline and not an x-drive. Even better a 335i with the M-adaptive is a must to get the most out of the HP, torque and chassis.

We had a thread way back on a test drive the S4 was faster with its trick diff while they tested the 335i without even DHP. Anyway the issue with that test IMO was also the tire s, no question the 335i for what it is its under-tire especially since a lot came off the boat in the beginning with all season tires.

Personally I don't care what the people think, I don't get BMWs to impress anyone I get them because I love the level of engineering going into them and how they drive.

Yes the 3-series of old didn't have the massive HP but starting with the E90 and that N54 for me at least you can't go back and say 180 HP and 200lbs-tq is enough anymore. I had a 07 328i sport and thought it was fine until I test drove a F30 328i for the first time. It put things in perspective. The 335i took my experience to a whole new level.

So if money was an issue for me at least I would forgo some options and bump it up to a Sportline 328i with DHP. I think a budget minded person who enjoys driving its the minimum HP/Torque 3-series one should get in order to get the maximum out of this wonderful chassis.

For someone that just wants say I have a BMW and enjoy the tech features sure get the 320i hell the 318i would be just fine. I just think there are also other cars that you can get massive tech and luxury options for less money that might suit such a person better.
vern commented:
September 8, 2013, 9:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
I am afraid there are few CAs that know ****e. Mine admitted I knew more than she. .
Change DEALERS,thats what I did and I couldn't be happier with JMK BMW with there Sales,Service and Certified Body Shop. Good luck
cheers
vern
furby076 commented:
September 12, 2013, 9:46 am

Holy wow batman. I get busy with work and wedding (crunch time) and this thread took a life of it's own. I will try and read from my last post. One thing, for sure, there is a lot of debate here.

One of my concerns are people who believe their car "can do no wrong". Try and take out the emotional factor. What does the car do today, what did it do yesterday. Last years model had issues, it could be too stiff for many people and we would get the "jarring" effect when we ran over a small hole. They compensated for this, but did they go too far? Now the car feels floaty. I remember doing one of the test drive events two years ago (test 335d, Audi and Benz). I likened the benz to an old, 400 pound prostitute....too aged, too many rolls, and way too loose. That feeling is not too far from what we get today.

BMW took away the suspension and said, "if you want something similar to what we had, then pay up. it won't be the same, but pay up anyhow".

Well shoot, this is a sports luxury car, not a luxury car. They made it more like the e60 (e90 = 178 inches, f30 = 182 inches, and 360 = 190 inches). Heck they got rid of the oval side mirrors for the squarish ones which are 5 series style

I am not saying we should go back to the mouth jarring e90, but there is a happy medium somewhere. CaptainAudio always complained about his e90 suspension and almost dumped his car...he was able to fix it with different tires and shocks - why couldn't BMW do that? Why not make the DHP Option a Standard? It would make the sport lovers happy, and still work for the soccer moms. It's not unprecedented (though the other way). Do any of you recall how, for a few years, BMW gave an automatic credit? So there was no price difference between auto and manual. They did this to appease non-manual drivers. So how about do something to appease the sport driver?

As soon as things settle down I plan to read the entire thread. Based on recommendations (and please give some more) I will create a website where people can fill in their very basic contact information (Name, E-mail, car model). Once this is done, submit the petition to BMW (write a letter to the president) showing support for BMW to make a change.
furby076 commented:
September 12, 2013, 10:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
Vern.
It's not about making a mistake. It's also not about research. Look around at your local dealers, good luck finding a car that is exactly what you want for a test drive. It's pretty darn hard to do so. In my case, there were ZERO m-sport, DHP, x-drive cars on the SIX dealerships. Many people don't even have those kinds of options. Reading posts on people's perceptions is not good enough, because people don't think the same.

Also, DHP is not the same as what was before
Dr. 328xi commented:
September 12, 2013, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
I remember doing one of the test drive events two years ago (test 335d, Audi and Benz). I likened the benz to an old, 400 pound prostitute....too aged, too many rolls, and way too loose.
Back when I had my Audi, I did a similar comparison of "Die Großen Drei" and I came up with a similar assessment of the Benz, although nothing as eloquent and illustrative of how it really felt than what you just said there!



I have always felt that the Benz was meant to be ridden in and the BMW was meant to be driven (and as an Audi owner at that time, the Audi was that other guy that was doing a good job, but no one really knew who he was)

I think you really hit it on the head, by the way, with your comment about most of us needing to remove emotion from it all. I'm still pretty new here, and pretty new BMW - coming from a long line of VW/Audi group cars, I have a different perspective on a lot of this stuff. It's been really interesting to see how people have reacted to the changes over the last few years. My best friend has an E9x that I've driven a few times up and down the PCH when I've been out to visit him, but I can't make a legit comparison to how that experience compares to the daily slog of driving in the Midwest where the biggest hills I encounter are painted yellow and accompanied by a "BUMP" sign...
Michael Schott commented:
September 12, 2013, 10:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Vern.
It's not about making a mistake. It's also not about research. Look around at your local dealers, good luck finding a car that is exactly what you want for a test drive. It's pretty darn hard to do so. In my case, there were ZERO m-sport, DHP, x-drive cars on the SIX dealerships. Many people don't even have those kinds of options. Reading posts on people's perceptions is not good enough, because people don't think the same.

Also, DHP is not the same as what was before
Quite true. A Sport Line xDrive with DHP would drive the same as an MSport but the chances of finding this configuration at a dealer is very small. In the northeast and upper midwest, non xDrive cars are extremely rare. I was fortunate to find a forum member with a RWD Sport Line car who let me drive his vehicle before I placed my order. Asking another member here is your best bet.
Dippydo commented:
September 12, 2013, 3:49 pm

Petition your little hearts out. Sale are up over 30%. They won't care. LOL..
furby076 commented:
September 12, 2013, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Petition your little hearts out. Sale are up over 30%. They won't care. LOL..
Sales are up for what? Company as a whole or 3 series? Is it possible that sales are up because leases are up and we are in the new cycle or is it because they got new customers (coming from other cars).

Even, if that number is best case scenario (all new customers from different brands) - if you think BMW doesn't listen to it's customers then you are as new to the automotive industry as you are to this forum. Case-in-point -> Automatic Credit that made auto and manual same price for several years, softening of the suspension, making the HPFP a recall item with 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty.

There are many items that show BMW listens...they especially do for an organized list. Just a matter of getting that list in front of the correct people
f30jojo commented:
September 12, 2013, 3:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Petition your little hearts out. Sale are up over 30%. They won't care. LOL..
Lol I've posted the same thing many times before. Enthusiasts are such a small part of sales as a whole. 30% up? Don't fix what isn't broken.

Sent from my LT18i using BimmerApp mobile app
mr_clueless commented:
September 12, 2013, 3:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Lol I've posted the same thing many times before. Enthusiasts are such a small part of sales as a whole. 30% up? Don't fix what isn't broken.

Sent from my LT18i using BimmerApp mobile app
Well, they seem to be selling multiple cars to the same person (after buy back), so perhaps that has something to do with it?
windsor027 commented:
September 12, 2013, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Lol I've posted the same thing many times before. Enthusiasts are such a small part of sales as a whole. 30% up? Don't fix what isn't broken.

Sent from my LT18i using BimmerApp mobile app
thats just it, they don't need to fix a thing. Get DHP with the VSS and you are set.

I ordered my car and you know how there are those rare times that the order has been messed up? Well the deal breaker for me would have been no DHP or 6MT. Everything else I can live with.
f30jojo commented:
September 12, 2013, 4:09 pm

Point taken. Seems some people order a xdrive f30 and compliance it's not an e90. If they love the e90 so much.... Buy,/keep one.

Sent from my LT18i using BimmerApp mobile app
Dippydo commented:
September 12, 2013, 6:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Sales are up for what? Company as a whole or 3 series? Is it possible that sales are up because leases are up and we are in the new cycle or is it because they got new customers (coming from other cars).

Even, if that number is best case scenario (all new customers from different brands) - if you think BMW doesn't listen to it's customers then you are as new to the automotive industry as you are to this forum. Case-in-point -> Automatic Credit that made auto and manual same price for several years, softening of the suspension, making the HPFP a recall item with 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty.

There are many items that show BMW listens...they especially do for an organized list. Just a matter of getting that list in front of the correct people

Furby, it was an article that said BMW sales as a whole, not model specific by calendar year over last year. When sales increase that much over one year and they did not add technically a new line of products, they are doing something right and the company heads will look at enthusiasts as just that enthusiasts that count for far less than the typical customer. Believe me you would have to have a ton of complaints well into the thousands to get them to listen to you plus poor reviews publicly. Coming from a car background and manufacturing background I believe I am more than qualified to speak on this because we get that all the time as well...LOL... I don't expect you to take my word on it as I stated above, go for it, knock yourself out...LOL...But as we say behind closed doors...Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one...
Bill-SD commented:
September 12, 2013, 6:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Vern.
It's not about making a mistake. It's also not about research. Look around at your local dealers, good luck finding a car that is exactly what you want for a test drive. It's pretty darn hard to do so. In my case, there were ZERO m-sport, DHP, x-drive cars on the SIX dealerships. Many people don't even have those kinds of options. Reading posts on people's perceptions is not good enough, because people don't think the same.

Also, DHP is not the same as what was before
Sorry you don't like your car. Maybe waiting until there were cars available for test driving before ordering would have been a better option. It sucks when the exact model you want isn't on the lot. I've been in the same situation and ordered anyway knowing the risk. Luckily it's always worked out for me, but it was a risk just the same. IMO though, taking that risk removes the option to complain after the fact. A petition seems silly to me...but ya never know. In the mean time maybe there is an aftermarket solution that will help you enoy your new car a little more. Good luck with it.
av98 commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Petition your little hearts out. Sale are up over 30%. They won't care. LOL..
In the old days, BMW used to listen. Hence, the E46 ZHP. They somewhat did the same thing with the E92 335is, so hopefully some sort of F30 late model year or post LCI update will be available. Preferably in a package that can be option up on the base model.

Wishlist on that package:
  1. M performance LSD
  2. M performance Suspension
  3. M performance brake upgrade
  4. M performance exhaust
  5. M performance PPK

It would be great if this package was available for both the sedan and the coupes. They can call it the M performance package
quackbury commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:20 pm

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
mr_clueless commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.
How did you find out they had de-contented the cars? Was it just more research in why it wasn't quite handling the same way as the 2013?
quackbury commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
How did you find out they had de-contented the cars? Was it just more research in why it wasn't quite handling the same way as the 2013?
The first giveaway was the ride height. The wheel gap was much larger than they expected. So they researched their build sheets and found that the 704 suspension had not been included.

Seriously, read the thread. It's "only" 19 pages, and since I am not one of the affected owners, everything I say is third-hand. but I know it certainly made me look at BMW in a new light.
mr_clueless commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
The first giveaway was the ride height. The wheel gap was much larger than they expected. So they researched their build sheets and found that the 704 suspension had not been included.

Seriously, read the thread. It's "only" 19 pages, and since I am not one of the affected owners, everything I say is third-hand. but I know it certainly made me look at BMW in a new light.
Where do you get the build sheet? Is that the thing that is on the window of the car?
av98 commented:
September 12, 2013, 7:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
Ouch, makes you want to look for a new brand or wait for the end of model line year models.
beden1 commented:
September 12, 2013, 8:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Ouch, makes you want to look for a new brand or wait for the end of model line year models.
+1 End of model year runs make the most sense. Plenty of time for the car manufacturer to get most everything sorted out. Unfortunately, it usually takes them until then to make it right.

Early adopters have to play the role of Beta testers.
beden1 commented:
September 12, 2013, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
That completely sucks. One more reason why we will be keeping our low mileage E60.
Shades commented:
September 12, 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
So if you order a new 2014 M Sport this month your F10 will come with the new updated M Sport suspension.BMW only made a mistake on the F10 M Sport cars it built in Aug.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 12, 2013, 9:58 pm

You want BMW to listen? Do an extensive drive and vote with your wallet. Once sales plummet, they'll listen. Otherwise, BMW is just going to keep doing what they're doing because obviously the formula is working.
pointandgo commented:
September 12, 2013, 10:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
You want BMW to listen? Do an extensive drive and vote with your wallet. Once sales plummet, they'll listen. Otherwise, BMW is just going to keep doing what they're doing because obviously the formula is working.
And apparently being stuck in the JDP "doldrums" doesn't bother Munich either. Seems that 16th+ place in the JDP Vehicle Dependability Study..."vehicle problems per 100" is just fine for BMW:

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...ss-release.htm

Good thing they have great 'loaners.'
tturedraider commented:
September 12, 2013, 10:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
How did you find out they had de-contented the cars? Was it just more research in why it wasn't quite handling the same way as the 2013?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Where do you get the build sheet? Is that the thing that is on the window of the car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Ouch, makes you want to look for a new brand or wait for the end of model line year models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
+1 End of model year runs make the most sense. Plenty of time for the car manufacturer to get most everything sorted out. Unfortunately, it usually takes them until then to make it right.

Early adopters have to play the role of Beta testers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
That completely sucks. One more reason why we will be keeping our low mileage E60.
Do not believe everything you read. The situation with the F10 sport suspension sucks, there is no question about it. But, the above post is not an accurate representation of how the situation is turning out to be handled by BMWNA. They have not handled it well, but they are now making accommodations on an individual basis to affected owners who complain. There are several affected owners in the F10 forum reporting they are satisfied with the accommodation BMWNA has offered them. The $390 option credit will be applied to unsold units already in inventory.

It is being virtually universally reported by 2014 LCI F10 owners with the standard suspension that it has been greatly improved and most are reporting a high level of satisfaction with its performance.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 13, 2013, 2:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
And apparently being stuck in the JDP "doldrums" doesn't bother Munich either. Seems that 16th+ place in the JDP Vehicle Dependability Study..."vehicle problems per 100" is just fine for BMW:

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...ss-release.htm

Good thing they have great 'loaners.'
Why should BMW spend money on that extra R&D or that material that is that much better or will last longer when the masses are buying the cheap stuff that BMW is using and probably have huge profit margins on?

Looking at that graph, Merc may just be a contender for my next vehicle if they have the right formula. Something about that Jag F-Type though.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
beden1 commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Why should BMW spend money on that extra R&D or that material that is that much better or will last longer when the masses are buying the cheap stuff that BMW is using and probably have huge profit margins on?

Looking at that graph, Merc may just be a contender for my next vehicle if they have the right formula. Something about that Jag F-Type though.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
The image of Dick Van Dyke nearly being fried when his Jaguar caught on fire is just too much for me to consider a Jaguar. It looks like they still have not sorted out their electrical problems.
windsor027 commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
+1 End of model year runs make the most sense. Plenty of time for the car manufacturer to get most everything sorted out. Unfortunately, it usually takes them until then to make it right.

Early adopters have to play the role of Beta testers.
I agree. I cringe that I have to turn in my 2011 X5 for a 1014 X5. Love the X5 SUVs but I have not had good luck with them (had one since 2003) until this last one.

I would entertain the though of buying it to be honest but I want that 8-speed AT that will come with the new Diesel.
furby076 commented:
September 13, 2013, 11:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Furby, it was an article that said BMW sales as a whole, not model specific by calendar year over last year. When sales increase that much over one year and they did not add technically a new line of products, they are doing something right and the company heads will look at enthusiasts as just that enthusiasts that count for far less than the typical customer.
Things that could impact sales. Last run of a model car tends to have sales drop (who wants the old model). Then the new model comes out - everyone wants the new toy. Hence, increase in sales.

BMW, over the past few years, has been coming out with a TON of new lines. 1 series, x6, 4 series. Not to mention the new bodies (f30).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Sorry you don't like your car. Maybe waiting until there were cars available for test driving before ordering would have been a better option. It sucks when the exact model you want isn't on the lot. I've been in the same situation and ordered anyway knowing the risk. Luckily it's always worked out for me, but it was a risk just the same. IMO though, taking that risk removes the option to complain after the fact. A petition seems silly to me...but ya never know. In the mean time maybe there is an aftermarket solution that will help you enoy your new car a little more. Good luck with it.
Wait for what? Wait and HOPE some dealer would order the model that I wanted? How long should I have waited...month? two months? two years? Six dealers, none had it, it wasn't a waiting game.

I like the car, not the suspension, and apparently after 8 pages, and number of article links, it's not an uncommon thought.

Car is a lease, I can't (nor wouldn't) go nuts on aftermarket solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=716980


Sad but true.
Not necessarily. It seems like the existing owners want an upgrade to their current car. I have no illusions of that happening. What I want is future models being fixed. That's a huge difference
Bill-SD commented:
September 13, 2013, 2:18 pm

Wait for an oportunity to test drive and experience what you'll be getting. Otherwise you shouldn't complain

I was happy after test driving the 328i, and expect to me happy when it arrives. I'm guessing most others are pretty happy also. I thought there were a lot of whiners on the E9x forum. This one might have them beat....
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 4:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Wait for an oportunity to test drive and experience what you'll be getting. Otherwise you shouldn't complain

I was happy after test driving the 328i, and expect to me happy when it arrives. I'm guessing most others are pretty happy also. I thought there were a lot of whiners on the E9x forum. This one might have them beat....
Or at minimum, try to find out what you don't like/can't live with. That is why I am surprised that you guys that wanted as close as possible too E9x suspension, didn't just add DHP to be safe. $1000 or $15-16 dollars extra a month seems like cheap insurance to avoid the chance you hate the base suspension like you some of you guys do.
Trey100 commented:
September 13, 2013, 7:43 pm

Minn19 - that's what I did. I still haven't driven one with DHP, nor summer tires, nor 6mt. Everything here in the NE is square set up all season cars with auto.


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mr_clueless commented:
September 13, 2013, 7:54 pm

I haven't driven an MT either. I drove a no line with DHP and it seemed OK (didn't blow me away or nothing), but it has 18" wheels (they looked like the same ones on the 335, didn't know that was an option for 328) and I wasn't able to take it on the highway. Couple that with the CA not knowing how to adjust the steering/suspension independently, means I really barely got a feel for what my car will be like.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it will drive better than my current car with 218K miles. I think it should be OK. (As long as I don't have any brake issues or engine going into limp mode issues. )
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 8:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey100 View Post
Minn19 - that's what I did. I still haven't driven one with DHP, nor summer tires, nor 6mt. Everything here in the NE is square set up all season cars with auto.


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Everything was xDrive here. I think there was one RWD car between the two dealerships in town when I was looking. Like you guys everything had, A/S square setups and no DHP. There were a couple 335 MSports that were 6mt, they may have had summers, can't remember.

Hope you like your car! If you don't, please please be more creative then the it drove like a Camry/Buick comments.
pointandgo commented:
September 13, 2013, 9:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Everything was xDrive here. I think there was one RWD car between the two dealerships in town when I was looking. Like you guys everything had, A/S square setups and no DHP. There were a couple 335 MSports that were 6mt, they may have had summers, can't remember.

Hope you like your car! If you don't, please please be more creative then the it drove like a Camry/Buick comments.


OK, I'll give it a shot...it has the steering "numbness" of a Lexus (luxury car), but is 16 'car model ranks' down in JDP's quality rating (IQS survey...BMW brand):

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...lity-study.htm

Actual owner responses about their short-term experience. Geezus, GM is looking good.
furby076 commented:
September 13, 2013, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Wait for an oportunity to test drive and experience what you'll be getting. Otherwise you shouldn't complain

I was happy after test driving the 328i, and expect to me happy when it arrives. I'm guessing most others are pretty happy also. I thought there were a lot of whiners on the E9x forum. This one might have them beat....
Again, how long does someone need to wait? Remember, it's not like I can look on a calendar and see when one (*IF*) arrives. So that's an extremely poor excuse.

Let me give another tidbit. The Roommate (TM) loves Booberry. She loves her more than my previous ride. She loves the softness of the car. Good job BMW, you basically got soccer mom to love the handling. The Roommate (TM), also is the person whose palms used to sweat when drove a car (any car). The Roommate (TM) is also the person who would NEVER buy a BMW if not for me, and if tomorrow I wanted to switch brands, her answer would be "Honda FIT?". So, good job BMW - they marketed to someone who couldn't care less about the brand. To everyone out there, that is what is known as a bad move
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
[/B]

OK, I'll give it a shot...it has the steering "numbness" of a Lexus (luxury car), but is 16 'car model ranks' down in JDP's quality rating (IQS survey...BMW brand):

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...lity-study.htm

Actual owner responses about their short-term experience. Geezus, GM is looking good.
Then buy a GM. I haven't researched the past years of the JDP scale you are referencing, but BMW has never ranked that high have they? From what I remember they have always been around the mid-point on the that scale.

What do you want people to say to your posts?. All you are doing is reinforcing that you are disappointed with your new car purchase and BMW now sucks for you. Sorry they changed to something you don't like, hopefully for you they will lemon your car and you can purchase a different brand after they buy yours back.
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Again, how long does someone need to wait? Remember, it's not like I can look on a calendar and see when one (*IF*) arrives. So that's an extremely poor excuse.

Let me give another tidbit. The Roommate (TM) loves Booberry. She loves her more than my previous ride. She loves the softness of the car. Good job BMW, you basically got soccer mom to love the handling. The Roommate (TM), also is the person whose palms used to sweat when drove a car (any car). The Roommate (TM) is also the person who would NEVER buy a BMW if not for me, and if tomorrow I wanted to switch brands, her answer would be "Honda FIT?". So, good job BMW - they marketed to someone who couldn't care less about the brand. To everyone out there, that is what is known as a bad move
Furby, can you with a straight face say that you did not know that xDrive was the softest of all the 3er suspensions? I have my doubts that you can say yes due to your involvement in this forum. But if truly you can say yes, then you have a complaint. Still not much of one IMO, but a more understandable one. You special ordered the car, did ED, for the third time, why did you just not add DHP for a minimal cost to minimize the unknown factor more?
EddieB commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Furby, can you with a straight face say that you did not know that xDrive was the softest of all the 3er suspensions? I have my doubts that you can say yes due to your involvement in this forum. But if truly you can say yes, then you have a complaint. Still not much of one IMO, but a more understandable one. You special ordered the car, did ED, for the third time, why did you just not add DHP for a minimal cost to minimize the unknown factor more?
Heck the car before this, was custom ordered by me. And even though I did research I opted out of DHP due to the lack of clear cut advantage over the passive suspension.

Now having it, I would recommend it over the alternative of the Passive Sport suspension and especially over the stock. But that was 10 months of living with Passive Sports as a benchmark.
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Heck the car before this, was custom ordered by me. And even though I did research I opted out of DHP due to the lack of clear cut advantage over the passive suspension.

Now having it, I would recommend it over the alternative of the Passive Sport suspension and especially over the stock. But that was 10 months of living with Passive Sports as a benchmark.
Neither were xDrive right? From what I've read, especially here, it sounds like DHP makes a much bigger difference on the xDrives.

I've only been reading this forum since December of 2012. I don't remember you saying BMW is a Buick, Camry for soccer moms with the passive sport suspension. And that they will be going out of business shortly because they gave the enthusiast the finger.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Again, how long does someone need to wait? Remember, it's not like I can look on a calendar and see when one (*IF*) arrives. So that's an extremely poor excuse.

Let me give another tidbit. The Roommate (TM) loves Booberry. She loves her more than my previous ride. She loves the softness of the car. Good job BMW, you basically got soccer mom to love the handling. The Roommate (TM), also is the person whose palms used to sweat when drove a car (any car). The Roommate (TM) is also the person who would NEVER buy a BMW if not for me, and if tomorrow I wanted to switch brands, her answer would be "Honda FIT?". So, good job BMW - they marketed to someone who couldn't care less about the brand. To everyone out there, that is what is known as a bad move
That was the point of the F30. Make the car to suit to a broader audience so that they can make more $$$. People were calling me out on this topic when I said that the F30's steering and suspension were crap. Now, F30 owners are saying the same thing. The F30's suspension is irks on the side of being almost Lexus like. I test drove a new IS350 F-Sport and the only thing that I liked more in the F30 was that it felt a bit more hunkered down at speed. Other than that, even Lexus has closed the gap....significantly...too significantly.
EddieB commented:
September 13, 2013, 10:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Neither were xDrive right? From what I've read, especially here, it sounds like DHP makes a much bigger difference on the xDrives.

I've only been reading this forum since December of 2012. I don't remember you saying BMW is a Buick, Camry for soccer moms with the passive sport suspension. And that they will be going out of business shortly because they gave the enthusiast the finger.
No but I did say my first impression of the F30 was a bit floaty coming from an E46 M3. But when you pushed it hard in canyons, it felt fine. The DHP is icing on the cake. And if anybody is on the fence about it, pull the trigger. Less of an issue for RWD compared to AWD though as most would attest.

Indeed, I had new respect for the base suspension when I rented a 320d a couple weeks ago in Munich taking it on several high speed Autobahn trips. It was a blast.
minn19 commented:
September 13, 2013, 11:14 pm

2012 http://www.thecarconnection.com/imag...dability-study
2011 http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/17/j...incoln-best-b/
2010 http://www.thetorquereport.com/jd_po...endability.jpg
2009 http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA60525318.PDF
2008 Banner Year! http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA5253288.PDF
2007 Another One! http://www.autoblog.com/photos/j-d-p...ability-study/
2006 http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/auto...dependability/
2005 http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/ne...spx?ID=2005089
2004 http://www.roadandtrack.com/rt-archi...dability-study

Guess we should all go look for 2007-08 models or other brands according to JDP. Looks like the highest they hit on their list in the last decade was 7th place. With an average out of the top ten. Take it for what it is worth.

Edit: 10 year average is 13.8.
BmwFlooner commented:
September 13, 2013, 11:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Heck the car before this, was custom ordered by me. And even though I did research I opted out of DHP due to the lack of clear cut advantage over the passive suspension.

Now having it, I would recommend it over the alternative of the Passive Sport suspension and especially over the stock. But that was 10 months of living with Passive Sports as a benchmark.
I took a very similar path to my current RWD F30 with DHP. I lived with passive M for awhile, and after going DHP I wouldn't go back. Also VSS is great.

It's an incredible shame that dealers don't stock them on the lots. An even bigger shame that they don't know what it is.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 13, 2013, 11:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post


It says something...I'm not sure that something is good for the newer models. BMW is pulling a Mercedes Benz in 2000. Quality was abysmal.
minn19 commented:
September 14, 2013, 12:04 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
It says something...I'm not sure that something is good for the newer models. BMW is pulling a Mercedes Benz in 2000. Quality was abysmal.
For the hell of it. JDP's Initial Quality Study from 2013-2004 to go with the previous dependability study. You guys can look up the sources yourself if you don't believe me. Gotta love insomnia. For the record, I'm not a big JDP list fan, but some are, so here is some historical perspective for those using it as part of the whole BMW sucks now argument. Apparently, they have always sucked. According to JDP anyway.

2013 - 18
2012- 10
2011- 13
2010- 16
2009 - 15
2008 - 21
2007 - 21
2006 - 27
2005 - 3 WTF did they do that year?
2004 - 21

Edit: 10 year average is 16.5
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 14, 2013, 1:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
For the hell of it. JDP's Initial Quality Study from 2013-2004 to go with the previous dependability study. You guys can look up the sources yourself if you don't believe me. Gotta love insomnia. For the record, I'm not a big JDP list fan, but some are, so here is some historical perspective for those using it as part of the whole BMW sucks now argument. Apparently, they have always sucked. According to JDP anyway.

2013 - 18
2012- 10
2011- 13
2010- 16
2009 - 15
2008 - 21
2007 - 21
2006 - 27
2005 - 3 WTF did they do that year?
2004 - 21
They made top 10 in 2012, not that far off in 2011. Seems like those were the key years. Honestly, I just feel the materials used today seem cheaper. Some say they're the same. To me, it doesn't feel that way.
av98 commented:
September 14, 2013, 5:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
For the hell of it. JDP's Initial Quality Study from 2013-2004 to go with the previous dependability study. You guys can look up the sources yourself if you don't believe me. Gotta love insomnia. For the record, I'm not a big JDP list fan, but some are, so here is some historical perspective for those using it as part of the whole BMW sucks now argument. Apparently, they have always sucked. According to JDP anyway.

2013 - 18
2012- 10
2011- 13
2010- 16
2009 - 15
2008 - 21
2007 - 21
2006 - 27
2005 - 3 WTF did they do that year?
2004 - 21
This is the reason I own an end of model year ZHP sedan from 05 Was the few years BMW didn't make any new model intros and changes. Plus most of their existing models in 05 were all near end of life. BMW can be good at reliability just catch them when they are not doing anything new and their models are years into the cycle which have ironed out all the bugs.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 14, 2013, 9:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
You are being totally silly now. Getting a Honda and slapping aftermarket pieces will not get you the refinement that comes in a BMW, Audi or a MB. To say that my car is the same as a Honda is totally nuts. How are they the same. In performance? In refinement? 20k was well worth it to me to get what I have believe me.
First off, you're making this about me and it's not. I was talking to another poster who is consumed with the handling above all else. For HIM, he'd be better off letting go of the BMW roundel and just get the sportscar he truly wants. That's the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Your first statement is exactly what I am talking about, to get an F30 that is a true sport sedan you need a 335i sportline with DHP period. That is the formula (forget the M-performance crap, its all cosmetic). Then you have a crazy fast car, that can be very comfortable in comfort mode and if you are that type of person you take it to the track and have a fun weekend.
Great, tell it to the other guy, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
What you drive doesn't even come close, you went for soft, and new tech features for the money you wanted to spend to entertain you. Nothing wrong with that but please don't insist that every F30 is that way.
I never did. What I did say, if you bothered to read it, is that adding the M-Performance Suspension brings the F30 up to E90 handling standards. That's confirmed in multiple forums from the few owners who installed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Hell you were the one that came back 3 months after you got your car and asked for advice on how to make the suspension a little tighter, which says to me you got tripped up by your own logic of what you wanted out of your car. Be honest if you did it all over again would you choose DHP also? Or a sportline? You bet your ass you would, because as much as you say this is a luxury car you want to feel at least some of the time as a sport sedan.
Again, it's not about me. I love my F30. Not sure why you think I'm playing some logic riddle. I was dead-set on getting a sway bar, but truth is for all my driving I'm not even facing a situation once a week where I wished my car handled better, more like once a month.

My responses in this thread are to those that expect a $29,000 F30 to handle like a 1998 E46 right out of the box. They didn't get the memo that in 2013 you need to pay to play. You want that great handling, fine, pay for it. And by the time you've added a line and added the M-Performance Suspension you're at $50,000. Judging the F30 incorrectly is what this thread is all about. Time to stop stripping dad's German luxury sedan, putting it up on some outdated pedestal, and then crying like a little girl when it doesn't meet the expectations of some 25 year old looking for a sports car. Buy the right car, problems solved.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 14, 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car. I think most people's ego feels better when they say or think it's a luxury sedan. FYI, luxury does not mean back up cameras, iPod connectivity, active cruise... Those are nice features, Don't get me wrong. But they don't make it luxury. Mercedes S class, BMW 7, Audi 8 are luxury cars. Hell even a 5 series to me is borderline. Anyway my point is connectivity doesn't mean luxury. And by the way, just my opinion... A 320i sport pkg is just as much a sport sedan as a 335i dhp. Agreed the 335 is faster in a straight line, but in technical twisties. They're the same car, sorry to bust your bubble. Also, you can load up a 320 with just about every option a 335 has except dhp, but honestly I'd take the true static M suspension over that anyway.
BMW is a luxury brand, therefore any BMW is a luxury car.

Configured apples-to-apples vs. a Honda Accord, the BMW will cost 30% more simply because of the badge. BMW's are status symbols, just like Rolex, just like Ralph Lauren, just like Tumi, just like Mont Blanc. They cost more than their pedestrian counterparts because of the prestige of the brand, not because of performance.

To remain competitive, BMW took the 3 Series downmarket with the 320i allowing for a $29,000 pricepoint and the all-important $299 monthly lease payment. That does nothing to diminish the fact that some of us drive the car the right way, as designed, as a $50,000 fully-featured luxury car. There is a lot of crossover with BMW, the cheapest 5 Series costing less than a well-optioned 3 Series, too many configurations to make the argument you're attempting to make.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 14, 2013, 10:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
Yup.

It is 100% possible to create an F30 that outhandles an E90, just have to tic the right boxes when you place your order and pony up the $ that it costs. The F30 is such a configurable car that there is no excuse for getting something you don't love.

The options, the lines, the suspensions, it's all there. Those who whine and want to start petitions are grumpy about one simple thing: BMW's cost money, and in order to make the car more appealing to the most people they swapped the investment in handling with the investment in tech and comfort features.

Three years ago my mom was serious about a 3 Series sedan and BMW lost her business because she could get an Acura with leather, heated seats, and xenons for the same money. I told her that the BMW would outhandle the Acura any day and she said "who cares, I can't get a car without a garage door opener".

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 14, 2013, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
You want BMW to listen? Do an extensive drive and vote with your wallet. Once sales plummet, they'll listen. Otherwise, BMW is just going to keep doing what they're doing because obviously the formula is working.
Sales won't plummet because BMW has it's priorities straight.

They are making sure that their cars cater to the largest swath of people possible. The mom, the dad, the wannabe, even the enthusiast. The reason that they're coming out with GT's, Gran Coupe's, the 1 Sedan, and all these other derivatives is because they are one brand, not two. They aren't Audi with its VW or Lexus with its Toyota. BMW has to do its heavy-lifting all by itself.

The formula is working quite well and will continue to do so. Why? BMW has that beautiful roundel going for it, that's why. The guy who can't afford an Audi has no downmarket Audi to put himself into. He has to settle for a VW. Tough to impress others in a VW. So he leaves his CC and climbs into a 320i for the same money. $299 a month, beautiful thing.

Point is this isn't some BMW panic or identity crisis. It's a deliberate strategy to dominate the automotive world. So far, so good.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
September 14, 2013, 11:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW is a luxury brand, therefore any BMW is a luxury car.

Configured apples-to-apples vs. a Honda Accord, the BMW will cost 30% more simply because of the badge. BMW's are status symbols, just like Rolex, just like Ralph Lauren, just like Tumi, just like Mont Blanc. They cost more than their pedestrian counterparts because of the prestige of the brand, not because of performance.

To remain competitive, BMW took the 3 Series downmarket with the 320i allowing for a $29,000 pricepoint and the all-important $299 monthly lease payment. That does nothing to diminish the fact that some of us drive the car the right way, as designed, as a $50,000 fully-featured luxury car. There is a lot of crossover with BMW, the cheapest 5 Series costing less than a well-optioned 3 Series, too many configurations to make the argument you're attempting to make.

BJ
The BMW does not cost more than an Accord simply because of the badge and a 3 Series was no more designed to be a $50,000 than Accord was designed to be a $32,000 car.

Some people buy for the label and some recognize quality. In all products as price increases quality increases at a lesser rate. I would not call a 750Lix twice as good as an F30 although it is at least twice as expensive.

For example there is a reason why a Brioni suit costs much more than a Joseph A. Banks suit (which is a perfectly fine suit but it is not a Brioni). Brioni suits have hand stitched not fused (glued) collars and there is a lot of hand workmanship in them. They also use very high quality fabrics from suppliers such as Loro Piana. The same kind of things hold true for Gucci Shoes, Burberry rain coats.

There is a lot more than price that differentiates a BMW from an Accord (which FWIW I think is an excellent car) and traditionally that has been driving dynamics.

After the E9x pothole explosion fiasco and the F30 floatiness and body roll issues BMW needs to figure out that the need to strive for ride AND handling not ride OR handling. I suspect that all that is needed is a recalibration of spring and damper rates as the basic suspension geometry is probable more than adequate.

From early reviews the 4 series has a better sorted out suspension than the F30. This remains to be seen and when they become available I will schedule a test drive. If I prefer my E93 to the F33 I have no problem holding on to it.



CA




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av98 commented:
September 15, 2013, 12:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The BMW does not cost more than an Accord simply because of the badge and a 3 Series was no more designed to be a $50,000 than Accord was designed to be a $32,000 car.

Some people buy for the label and some recognize quality. In all products as price increases quality increases at a lesser rate. I would not call a 750Lix twice as good as an F30 although it is at least twice as expensive.

For example there is a reason why a Brioni suit costs much more than a Joseph A. Banks suit (which is a perfectly fine suit but it is not a Brioni). Brioni suits have hand stitched not fused (glued) collars and there is a lot of hand workmanship in them. They also use very high quality fabrics from suppliers such as Loro Piana. The same kind of things hold true for Gucci Shoes, Burberry rain coats.

There is a lot more than price that differentiates a BMW from an Accord (which FWIW I think is an excellent car) and traditionally that has been driving dynamics.

After the E9x pothole explosion fiasco and the F30 floatiness and body roll issues BMW needs to figure out that the need to strive for ride AND handling not ride OR handling. I suspect that all that is needed is a recalibration of spring and damper rates as the basic suspension geometry is probable more than adequate.

From early reviews the 4 series has a better sorted out suspension than the F30. This remains to be seen and when they become available I will schedule a test drive. If I prefer my E93 to the F33 I have no problem holding on to it.



CA




Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
BMW just needs to release a ZHP package for the F30 called the M performance package for $10K then call it a day. For all we know it's planned 1-2 years after the LCI as they've done traditionally in the past- E46 ZHP & E92 335is. I'll wait for that


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captainaudio commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:08 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
BMW just needs to release a ZHP package for the F30 called the M performance package for $10K then call it a day. For all we know it's planned 1-2 years after the LCI as they've done traditionally in the past- E46 ZHP & E92 335is. I'll wait for that


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The 335is had the identical suspension to the M-Sport and sport packages. The major difference was the engine.

CA


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boltjaM3s commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The BMW does not cost more than an Accord simply because of the badge and a 3 Series was no more designed to be a $50,000 than Accord was designed to be a $32,000 car.

Some people buy for the label and some recognize quality. In all products as price increases quality increases at a lesser rate. I would not call a 750Lix twice as good as an F30 although it is at least twice as expensive.

For example there is a reason why a Brioni suit costs much more than a Joseph A. Banks suit (which is a perfectly fine suit but it is not a Brioni). Brioni suits have hand stitched not fused (glued) collars and there is a lot of hand workmanship in them. They also use very high quality fabrics from suppliers such as Loro Piana. The same kind of things hold true for Gucci Shoes, Burberry rain coats.

There is a lot more than price that differentiates a BMW from an Accord (which FWIW I think is an excellent car) and traditionally that has been driving dynamics.

After the E9x pothole explosion fiasco and the F30 floatiness and body roll issues BMW needs to figure out that the need to strive for ride AND handling not ride OR handling. I suspect that all that is needed is a recalibration of spring and damper rates as the basic suspension geometry is probable more than adequate.

From early reviews the 4 series has a better sorted out suspension than the F30. This remains to be seen and when they become available I will schedule a test drive. If I prefer my E93 to the F33 I have no problem holding on to it.

CA
I am referring to the buyers in the $25,000-$35,000 range who are unhappy with the F30 driving dynamics compared to prior 3 Series models.

At those low-ends of the E90/F30 scale they can only configure a car devoid of creature comforts with a floaty suspension. So when they make that choice they are most definitely choosing 'label' over 'quality'. Because if they truly cared about tighter suspensions and tech toys, they'd go and get them in another brand within their budgets. The handling gone now. A $30,000 F30 is a very lame car. Its not a balance of performance/luxury/tech at that level. It's an overpriced disappointment.

This has been going on for years, of course, the difference now being that unlike 2008 you get the garage door opener and lose the steering feel. Used to be that you could get into a stripped 3 Series and like it because the handling made you smile despite the lack of comfort and tech options. Today you get into a stripped 3 Series and get just a few basic options and lose the handling and the steering feel entirely. It's a different value proposition now.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
BMW just needs to release a ZHP package for the F30 called the M performance package for $10K then call it a day. For all we know it's planned 1-2 years after the LCI as they've done traditionally in the past- E46 ZHP & E92 335is. I'll wait for that
The 'wait' you want is for the 1 Series Sedan.

The new 3 is the old 5. It's the E39.

The new 1 is the old 3. It'll be the E36.

BMW has merely released the larger/softer 3 ahead of the smaller/tighter 1. It's a sequencing issue, nothing more.

BJ
av98 commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 335is had the identical suspension to the M-Sport and sport packages. The major difference was the engine.

CA


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Because the suspension was more than good enough. Why mess with something that is perfect and doesn't need a change.

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av98 commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:22 am

I need the size of the 3 not the 1 but with the ZHP handling.


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boltjaM3s commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
I need the size of the 3 not the 1 but with the ZHP handling.


Great, then you need a 2014 F30 M-Sport line with the dealer-installed Performance M-Suspension and non-run-flat tires.

All are available now. So whip out your checkbook and happy shopping.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
September 15, 2013, 2:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Because the suspension was more than good enough. Why mess with something that is perfect and doesn't need a change.

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The E9x sport suspension was far from perfect and IMHO on the pre LCI cars it was crap and on the post LCI cars it was at best mediocre.

It was overly stiff and very poorly sorted out. It was fine on good road surfaces but if you hit a pot hole, frost heave, construction plate, etc all hell would break loose. On bumpy corners the tires would bounce around and the rear end would step out. In stock condition my 07 335i was for all practical purposes undrivable in NYC. I was able to rectify the situation by going to Continental DWS non run flats and Koni FSD shocks.


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captainaudio commented:
September 15, 2013, 2:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I am referring to the buyers in the $25,000-$35,000 range who are unhappy with the F30 driving dynamics compared to prior 3 Series models.

At those low-ends of the E90/F30 scale they can only configure a car devoid of creature comforts with a floaty suspension. So when they make that choice they are most definitely choosing 'label' over 'quality'. Because if they truly cared about tighter suspensions and tech toys, they'd go and get them in another brand within their budgets. The handling gone now. A $30,000 F30 is a very lame car. Its not a balance of performance/luxury/tech at that level. It's an overpriced disappointment.

This has been going on for years, of course, the difference now being that unlike 2008 you get the garage door opener and lose the steering feel. Used to be that you could get into a stripped 3 Series and like it because the handling made you smile despite the lack of comfort and tech options. Today you get into a stripped 3 Series and get just a few basic options and lose the handling and the steering feel entirely. It's a different value proposition now.

BJ
And I maintain that the suspension issues on the F30 that many (including you) have pointed out are inexcusable and it is simply bad engineering on the part of BMW. It is not rocket science to design a suspension that combines good ride and good handling. The Koni FSD shocks totally transformed my 335i with sport package and they are OEM on some Lamborghinis. They cost me about $700 and I bought 1 set. How much would they cost BMW in the quantities they would be buying? Plus they are obviously paying something for the mediocre shocks they are using now so the cost differential would at worst case lead to a very small price increase. Or as I stated a while back they could licenses GMs excellent magnetic shock technology like Ferrari did.

CA


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windsor027 commented:
September 15, 2013, 7:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
And I maintain that the suspension issues on the F30 that many (including you) have pointed out are inexcusable and it is simply bad engineering on the part of BMW. It is not rocket science to design a suspension that combines good ride and good handling. The Koni FSD shocks totally transformed my 335i with sport package and they are OEM on some Lamborghinis. They cost me about $700 and I bought 1 set. How much would they cost BMW in the quantities they would be buying? Plus they are obviously paying something for the mediocre shocks they are using now so the cost differential would at worst case lead to a very small price increase. Or as I stated a while back they could licenses GMs excellent magnetic shock technology like Ferrari did.

CA


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I honestly don't get what you are saying here. BMW for less than 1K offers you the ability to have that sporty suspension, the VSS and also to tone your car down when you need a comfort setting. Its not as sophisticated as GMs magnetic setup but it does an excellent job. So don't make it sound BMW has left customers out to dry completely.

Maybe who fails the customers are the dealerships, by having very few DHP cars available for immediate delivery.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 15, 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I honestly don't get what you are saying here. BMW for less than 1K offers you the ability to have that sporty suspension, the VSS and also to tone your car down when you need a comfort setting. Its not as sophisticated as GMs magnetic setup but it does an excellent job. So don't make it sound BMW has left customers out to dry completely.

Maybe who fails the customers are the dealerships, by having very few DHP cars available for immediate delivery.
The F30's suspension did leave customers out to dry. The car rolls and swings and goes every which way. Now, I've driven an F30 with the port installed M Performance suspension and it does make a difference. Car feels tighter. I wasn't able to take it out into the turns though, so I can't comment on anything other than, the car feels more hunkered down.
f30jojo commented:
September 15, 2013, 12:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
BMW just needs to release a ZHP package for the F30 called the M performance package for $10K then call it a day. For all we know it's planned 1-2 years after the LCI as they've done traditionally in the past- E46 ZHP & E92 335is. I'll wait for that


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lol it already exists.... on the 320i. for only 1300 bucks
f30jojo commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:04 pm

Just my opinion. The 1 series is ugly as sin, especially the sedan. Yet I don't think that will be its downfall. I do fear the 1er sedan is going to be a flop. after you put a few options in it, you could easily get into a 320i or a near base 328i. unless they make the 1er sedan vastly cheaper than a 320i.... it will never sell except to enthusiasts. I understand the practicality and in theory it should sell. the problem is size, price and marketing. If the 320 wasn't released in the states a 1er sedan makes sense, otherwise not so much....
quackbury commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
lol it already exists.... on the 320i. for only 1300 bucks
You must be new to BMW. There is a HUGE difference between ZSP (the $1,300 Sport Package you reference) and ZHP.

Besides, the ZSP only upgrades the suspension if you have RWD. The 320i xDrive ZSP retains the exact same suspension as a base car (though they knock $300 off the package price since you don't get the upgraded suspension).
Bemo commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:37 pm

I am not a fan of the F30. First and foremost, the exterior design is awful, especially the new headlight/kidney grill configuration, not to mention the atrocious hood, which now runs above the BMW logo. Yes, I know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I just don't see any beauty.
The suspension feel has already been covered, ad nauseam. For those that disagree, read the newest Car & Driver article, comparing the E90 and F30.
Onto steering next, awful, by way of being void of any road feel and overly-boosted. There are no after market alternatives to correct this.

Good bye F30, hello something else. As someone else already said, don't buy it and complain. Simply purchase another car and be happy!
f30jojo commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
I am not a fan of the F30. First and foremost, the exterior design is awful, especially the new headlight/kidney grill configuration, not to mention the atrocious hood, which now runs above the BMW logo. Yes, I know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I just don't see any beauty.
The suspension feel has already been covered, ad nauseam. For those that disagree, read the newest Car & Driver article, comparing the E90 and F30.
Onto steering next, awful, by way of being void of any road feel and overly-boosted. There are no after market alternatives to correct this.

Good bye F30, hello something else. As someone else already said, don't buy it and complain. Simply purchase another car and be happy!
strange.... you own a E90. Which not only looks remarkably like a F30 in a lot of ways, its also one of which 90% of Americans couldn't tell you the difference between a F30 and a E90. I understand its your opinion and I respect it. Its just a strange opinion from a E90 owner.

Ill agree photos don't do it justice, when I saw one in person I fell in love immediately. just my opinion.
EddieB commented:
September 15, 2013, 1:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
I am not a fan of the F30. First and foremost, the exterior design is awful, especially the new headlight/kidney grill configuration, not to mention the atrocious hood, which now runs above the BMW logo. Yes, I know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I just don't see any beauty.
The suspension feel has already been covered, ad nauseam. For those that disagree, read the newest Car & Driver article, comparing the E90 and F30.
Onto steering next, awful, by way of being void of any road feel and overly-boosted. There are no after market alternatives to correct this.

Good bye F30, hello something else. As someone else already said, don't buy it and complain. Simply purchase another car and be happy!

How many miles have you driven in ANY F30? I loathe the E90 like you do the F30, but I had a loaner for over 6 weeks plus multiple one or two day loaners. So I didn't rely on magazines like you appear to.
Bemo commented:
September 15, 2013, 2:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
strange.... you own a E90. Which not only looks remarkably like a F30 in a lot of ways, its also one of which 90% of Americans couldn't tell you the difference between a F30 and a E90. I understand its your opinion and I respect it. Its just a strange opinion from a E90 owner.

Ill agree photos don't do it justice, when I saw one in person I fell in love immediately. just my opinion.
No worries, I don't think the E90 is "all that" in the looks department, especially the rear!

I did have an F30 328xi loaner, multiple times, while getting the E90 serviced at the dealer.
I love the new interior, btw. But the subjective looks, suspension, and steering are too much to overcome. If I were to get one, I can sort out the suspension, I can't unmerge the headlights from the kidney grill, I can't fix the hood line, I can't fix the steering, but I wish I could as I think of myself as a BMW nut.

I won't even begin commenting on my wife's GT and its looks! I appreciate the car for its comfort and luxury, especially on long trips, but that is where we stop.

Anyway, I'm happy and envious that you like the F30! It would have made things easy for me to skip the whole 335 period and graduate to a new M3 or an M4. Now I have to scramble for a used E92 instead, yes all "big" problems to solve in the scheme of things...
f30jojo commented:
September 15, 2013, 3:16 pm

yeah I cant wait for the new M3 (sedan). the road presence will be overwhelming. I remember the first time I saw a F10 M5 on the street. Of course id seen pictures and read reviews but when I actually saw the M5 in person my mouth literally dropped. IMO BMW has never made the M look so different than the 535/550. pics really don't do it justice. anyway I hope they do the same with the f30 M3. I also loved the look of the E90 sedan M3...great car.

also thanks for understanding those were just my opinions earlier. a lot of people take things so personal on here.
Capobranco commented:
September 15, 2013, 4:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
....yeah I cant wait for the new M3 (sedan). the road presence will be overwhelming.....
I am standing in line.
furby076 commented:
September 15, 2013, 5:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The 'wait' you want is for the 1 Series Sedan.

The new 3 is the old 5. It's the E39.

The new 1 is the old 3. It'll be the E36.

BMW has merely released the larger/softer 3 ahead of the smaller/tighter 1. It's a sequencing issue, nothing more.

BJ
The 1 series is not the e90 3 series. It's much smaller, and some of the options don't even exist on that model.

So for those who were happy with a tight suspension in the e90, they don't even have that option. DHP doesn't bring the car back to what it was, it's still comparatively loose (based on others comments). Still, having to pay extra, for what was the standard previously, is a bit ridiculous.
furby076 commented:
September 15, 2013, 5:12 pm

And here it is folks.

Petition

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bmw-suspension.html

Please take a moment to sign it.

Best
BmwFlooner commented:
September 15, 2013, 5:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
DHP doesn't bring the car back to what it was, it's still comparatively loose (based on others comments).
Based on complaints I've read of the e90 suspension (pothole explosions), maybe that's a good thing?

Also, have *you* tested a car with DHP? You just created a petition to rectify a problem you're not entirely sure can't be resolved by clicking the right checkbox on the order form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Still, having to pay extra, for what was the standard previously, is a bit ridiculous.
This whole thing is a Goldilocks problem, that's why there are options. But they can't all be standard. Obviously the standard is designed to appeal to the largest install base.
av98 commented:
September 15, 2013, 6:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


Great, then you need a 2014 F30 M-Sport line with the dealer-installed Performance M-Suspension and non-run-flat tires.

All are available now. So whip out your checkbook and happy shopping.

BJ
2014 is the target year, may push another year back though to see if a package comes out. Want to integrate the ED vacation in.


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furby076 commented:
September 15, 2013, 6:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BmwFlooner View Post
Based on complaints I've read of the e90 suspension (pothole explosions), maybe that's a good thing?
A problem that I did not experience in a pothole infested city, though it was a major problem for others. We also have other users who resolved the issue with a change of tires and shocks

Quote:
Originally Posted by BmwFlooner View Post
Also, have *you* tested a car with DHP? You just created a petition to rectify a problem you're not entirely sure can't be resolved by clicking the right checkbox on the order form.
Not on an x-drive. Again, the request is to fix the looseness of steering and suspension. Now if they can do this with DHP or something else is irrelevant. The DHP is a suggestion, though other solutions could be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BmwFlooner View Post
This whole thing is a Goldilocks problem, that's why there are options. But they can't all be standard. Obviously the standard is designed to appeal to the largest install base.
I don't know what a goldilocks problem is. What I do know is that people are being told to pay extra for what used to be standard, even though there were solutions that would not have incurred cost. BMW sold-out repeat customers (aka enthusiasts) for those with little to no brand loyalty.
Bill-SD commented:
September 15, 2013, 7:24 pm

Standard equipment becoming options is nothing new. My E92 came with Harmon Kardon and alarm pre-wire. These things were options a couple years later.

I keep coming back to "it is what it is". If you no longer like the brand then maybe it's time for something else. Again, sorry you don't like your new car. I know it must be tough spending all the energy and money on something you are disappointed in.


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EddieB commented:
September 15, 2013, 8:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Standard equipment becoming options is nothing new. My E92 came with Harmon Kardon and alarm pre-wire. These things were options a couple years later.

I keep coming back to "it is what it is". If you no longer like the brand then maybe it's time for something else. Again, sorry you don't like your new car. I know it must be tough spending all the energy and money on something you are disappointed in.


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AFAIK HK has always been a paid option. You're saying it was a "no cost" option? That's surprising because it cost on my E46 325i and M3 as well as the F30 335i.
Bill-SD commented:
September 15, 2013, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
AFAIK HK has always been a paid option. You're saying it was a "no cost" option? That's surprising because it cost on my E46 325i and M3 as well as the F30 335i.
Standard equipment on the '07 335.

Logic7 = HK
EddieB commented:
September 15, 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-SD View Post
Standard equipment on the '07 335.

Logic7 = HK
Logic 7 is Harman Kardon, however they didn't really call it Harman Kardon system like on the other year's series. Very interesting. A rose by any other name is still a rose :-)
Pat_X5 commented:
September 15, 2013, 9:16 pm

I have come to conclude that my need for the harsher suspension from my Pre LCI and Post LCI E90 was because I had gotten used to the stiff sport suspension, hydraulic steering and stiff shocks for the past 6 years.

After test driving the new F3x, I just test drove an Audi Q5 and have to say that they also went to soft muted suspensions & non responsive steering too.

Guess I just have to get used to the "new" CAFE standard gas mileage requirements that the feds have imposed on the manufacturers.

Wish BMW would offer an "option" to replace out the soft mushy suspension and non responsive steering with the old stuff - but then that would mess with the CAFE requirements....

Don't you just love governmental bureaucracy ????
av98 commented:
September 15, 2013, 9:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_X5 View Post
I have come to conclude that my need for the harsher suspension from my Pre LCI and Post LCI E90 was because I had gotten used to the stiff sport suspension, hydraulic steering and stiff shocks for the past 6 years.

After test driving the new F3x, I just test drove an Audi Q5 and have to say that they also went to soft muted suspensions & non responsive steering too.

Guess I just have to get used to the "new" CAFE standard gas mileage requirements that the feds have imposed on the manufacturers.

Wish BMW would offer an "option" to replace out the soft mushy suspension and non responsive steering with the old stuff - but then that would mess with the CAFE requirements....

Don't you just love governmental bureaucracy ????
They do, it's called the M performance suspension. Port installed standard BMW warranty covered.


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EddieB commented:
September 15, 2013, 9:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
They do, it's called the M performance suspension. Port installed standard BMW warranty covered.


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Or get DHP on a Sport or M-Sport.
Bill-SD commented:
September 15, 2013, 9:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Logic 7 is Harman Kardon, however they didn't really call it Harman Kardon system like on the other year's series. Very interesting. A rose by any other name is still a rose :-)
True. But is was standard until, I think, 2009. They say that L7 was better than HK. I've never compared the two but will find out when the F30 arrives.

Oh, HK was also standard on my '00 M Roadster. It may have been standard on future M Roadsters also? If not, maybe a petition would have been in order ;-)


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boltjaM3s commented:
September 15, 2013, 10:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The E9x sport suspension was far from perfect and IMHO on the pre LCI cars it was crap and on the post LCI cars it was at best mediocre.

It was overly stiff and very poorly sorted out. It was fine on good road surfaces but if you hit a pot hole, frost heave, construction plate, etc all hell would break loose. On bumpy corners the tires would bounce around and the rear end would step out. In stock condition my 07 335i was for all practical purposes undrivable in NYC. I was able to rectify the situation by going to Continental DWS non run flats and Koni FSD shocks.
+1

I almost left the BMW brand because of the legendary pothole-explosions of my E90. BMW smartly softened the suspension and the disappointment I initially felt about the loss of road feel has been completely overcome by the amazing torque and smooth power of the new engine.

I lost the handling and the potholes. I gained a quiet ride and incredible torque. Add into it the new styling and the new toys, it's all good.

BJ
boltjaM3s commented:
September 15, 2013, 10:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
And I maintain that the suspension issues on the F30 that many (including you) have pointed out are inexcusable and it is simply bad engineering on the part of BMW. It is not rocket science to design a suspension that combines good ride and good handling. The Koni FSD shocks totally transformed my 335i with sport package and they are OEM on some Lamborghinis. They cost me about $700 and I bought 1 set. How much would they cost BMW in the quantities they would be buying? Plus they are obviously paying something for the mediocre shocks they are using now so the cost differential would at worst case lead to a very small price increase. Or as I stated a while back they could licenses GMs excellent magnetic shock technology like Ferrari did.

CA
I'm sure there's a spreadsheet in Munich that shows that sales would go up 20% with a softer suspension and that the $500 the superior underbody components would have cost could go to fund a standard iDrive LCD screen in every car produced.

The tight suspension just becomes another option. And those who want the handling the most are the ones who are used to paying for lots of mods anyway. Instead of forcing my mom to take the sporty performance and give up the creature comforts she gets it her way now. It also sets up a good-better-best scenario in 2015 when the 1 Sedan gets introduced. Has to be more than just size to have buyers move between the cars so close in design.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
September 15, 2013, 11:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Logic 7 is Harman Kardon, however they didn't really call it Harman Kardon system like on the other year's series. Very interesting. A rose by any other name is still a rose :-)
Logic 7 was developed by Lexicon which was absorbed by Harman Kardon along With Mark Levinson, Infinity, JBL and others.

CA


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captainaudio commented:
September 16, 2013, 1:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
+1

I almost left the BMW brand because of the legendary pothole-explosions of my E90. BMW smartly softened the suspension and the disappointment I initially felt about the loss of road feel has been completely overcome by the amazing torque and smooth power of the new engine.

I lost the handling and the potholes. I gained a quiet ride and incredible torque. Add into it the new styling and the new toys, it's all good.

BJ
Since my E93 is a 335i power and torque was never an issue.
I still maintain that comfort and performance are not mutually exclusive.

CA


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av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 1:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Or get DHP on a Sport or M-Sport.
Sigh, this has been talked about to death in multiple forums. The DHP suspension does not equal the old E9x or E46 sport or ZHP suspensions regardless of trim you put it in. BMW themselves has the DHP algorithm programmed out of the ECU from cars that get the M performance suspension put in; it is a requirement.

THE ONLY THING THAT BMW CURRENTLY OFFERS WHICH IS CLOSE TO THE OLD E9x OR E46 SPORT/ZHP SUSPENSION ON THE F30 IS THE M PERFORMANCE SUSPENSION!

Argh, we need to really sticky that damn F30driver.com topic to this F30 thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...f30+to+e46+zhp

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...766249&page=24


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Trey100 commented:
September 16, 2013, 6:02 am

Perhaps you were enamored by the E9x sport suspension but not everyone was. The pothole explosions were well known. The suspension was never ideal. The new one is just different and tries to appeal to more people while giving owners who want something more sporty options like the M performance suspension, DHP, M Sport brakes, and even a tune. The options cost money but they have tried to create a vehicle that can be customized to your preference. I believe their only mistake is that they didn't align the model "lines" along those options better. But I am sure if they did people would complain about the fact that they can't get the luxury suspension on a "sport line". Kind of like not being able to get the anthracite trim on an M Sport.


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SanDiegoBMW328i commented:
September 16, 2013, 7:22 am

I am curious about something that through hundreds of posts I have read, has never been defined.

What exactly is a "driving enthusiast?"

I recognize that there are people in the world that mindlessly get into their cars and just drive without much thought, and there are others who love driving a lot, like watching racing, like taking cars to tracks, etc. But what exactly is a driving enthusiast? What is the cutoff? If I use my BMW mostly as a daily driver am I not a driving enthusiast? If I keep my BMW spotless under a tarp in the garage and have modified it a bunch of times, and take it to the track 4 times a year, am I a driving enthusiast?

So after asking that question, what if I value getting 5 mpg more fuel economy vs. the older E90, slightly better acceleration, a larger trunk, and more technology that integrates better with my lifestyle? What if I value a more comfortable ride vs. having a ride that may perform slightly better but is uncomfortable? For some on this forum, this type of person is seen somehow has not being a "driving enthusiast" without again, that term not being defined.

The BMW328i is an interesting car, because it is a hybrid of two kinds of cars (which means it suffers from not being exceptional in a particular category). It is a compact car, that seeks to be a luxury car, that also seeks to be a sports car. I would offer that many who own BMW 328i cars who like to be thought of as "driving enthusiasts" are exactly like most of us - they can't afford a Porsche (or similar high performance coupe sports car) and need a BMW as a daily driver.
captainaudio commented:
September 16, 2013, 8:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoBMW328i View Post
I am curious about something that through hundreds of posts I have read, has never been defined.

What exactly is a "driving enthusiast?"

I recognize that there are people in the world that mindlessly get into their cars and just drive without much thought, and there are others who love driving a lot, like watching racing, like taking cars to tracks, etc.
My personal definition.


A driving enthusiast is someone who sees a car as something more than basic transportation. A driving emthusiast will go for a drive just for the fun of it. This covers a wide range of people. Some value performance and vehicle dynamics more than others.



CA



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Michael Schott commented:
September 16, 2013, 8:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
They do, it's called the M performance suspension. Port installed standard BMW warranty covered.


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Still leaves you with the EPS which most say is the primary issue. In the test that Car and Driver did in the October 2013 edition, they compared an E90 and F30 similarly equipped except the E90 had the N54 engine and the F30 the N20. Both had Sport suspensions. They handling was pretty equal but the F30 steering was far inferior to that of the E90.

Some may dislike the softer settings in the F30 but the overall capabilities are equal and the ride is far better. Even my 2011 E90 with 17" wheels and base suspension rides roughly over less than perfect roads. It's better than my 2008 E90 with 16" wheels but still has issues.

I have an F30 328i Sport Line on order with MT. I think I'm going to love the ride and handling but will have to get used to the steering. Overall, I'm convinced the new ride will be a superior everyday driver than the E90. And as our family car, it will be a superior vehicle due to the larger back seat and trunk.
av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 11:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Still leaves you with the EPS which most say is the primary issue. In the test that Car and Driver did in the October 2013 edition, they compared an E90 and F30 similarly equipped except the E90 had the N54 engine and the F30 the N20. Both had Sport suspensions. They handling was pretty equal but the F30 steering was far inferior to that of the E90.

Some may dislike the softer settings in the F30 but the overall capabilities are equal and the ride is far better. Even my 2011 E90 with 17" wheels and base suspension rides roughly over less than perfect roads. It's better than my 2008 E90 with 16" wheels but still has issues.

I have an F30 328i Sport Line on order with MT. I think I'm going to love the ride and handling but will have to get used to the steering. Overall, I'm convinced the new ride will be a superior everyday driver than the E90. And as our family car, it will be a superior vehicle due to the larger back seat and trunk.
This can be dialed out, thank god. If there are any E46 owners here that initially had the factory fly-by-wire throttle vs 2 SW revisions later, the immediate response difference is night and day. So I'm confident BMW can address this throw a SW algorithm upgrade.


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beden1 commented:
September 16, 2013, 11:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My personal definition.


A driving enthusiast is someone who sees a car as something more than basic transportation. A driving emthusiast will go for a drive just for the fun of it. This covers a wide range of people. Some value performance and vehicle dynamics more than others.

CA

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I look forward to any opportunity to drive my cars, but particularly, those times when we put the top down and explore less traveled country roads wherever they lead us. As a driving and car enthusiast, I also view cars as artforms, enjoy detailing my cars, and spending time discussing cars with others.

Sometimes, I wish I was in my late teens again, but if I were, I would have missed experiencing firsthand, the transformation of cars from the late 1950's until now.
Michael Schott commented:
September 16, 2013, 11:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
This can be dialed out, thank god. If there are any E46 owners here that initially had the factory fly-by-wire throttle vs 2 SW revisions later, the immediate response difference is night and day. So I'm confident BMW can address this throw a SW algorithm upgrade.


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Except the F30 is now in it's third year and it's not changed much. Car and Driver just commented on the EPS in the brand new and sportier themed 4 series and was not complimentary.
av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 12:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Except the F30 is now in it's third year and it's not changed much. Car and Driver just commented on the EPS in the brand new and sportier themed 4 series and was not complimentary.
E46 fly-by-wire SW was not updated till the 5th year in 03 then again in 05. So don't expect those changes to come anytime soon. Pays to get late model year, post LCI models.
Mark K commented:
September 16, 2013, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Instead of forcing my mom to take the sporty performance and give up the creature comforts she gets it her way now.
BJ
There is another solution to all this. BASE (lowest price) F30 should be a car with 704 suspension, staggered setup on 18" wheels with summer performance tires, speed limit 155 mph, sport AT and factory tune. Since less than 1% of BMW's customers are enthusiasts, they would not lose all that much money on that. Now, for "luxury" suspension, you pay up and either REMOVE 704 or remove 704 and add DHP. Everybody happy - those who casually test drive new 3er, journalists test driving them and, of course, enthusiasts. BMW makes even more money than now since "luxury" suspension actually means REMOVING parts and not adding stuff which poseurs won't know anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My personal definition.
A driving enthusiast is someone who sees a car as something more than basic transportation. A driving emthusiast will go for a drive just for the fun of it. This covers a wide range of people. Some value performance and vehicle dynamics more than others.
My definition is pretty much exactly the same. To help clarify, I would say that driving enthusiast will have at least one vehicle on which majority of the miles were driven for no other purpose than driving. Meaning, getting into the car and driving without destination, coming back home 2 hours and some 100 miles later with a big grin on your face.
av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 12:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My personal definition.


A driving enthusiast is someone who sees a car as something more than basic transportation. A driving emthusiast will go for a drive just for the fun of it. This covers a wide range of people. Some value performance and vehicle dynamics more than others.



CA



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+1, but I'll go a little further by saying that when you start noticing all the little details to anticipate what your car can and can't do against all the driving variables you encounter everyday. All that feedback has to come back from the car being driven.

The best analogy is that when you get in your car and everybody else look like speed bumps because your car gives you that extended control; that's what driving enthusiasts look for.


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captainaudio commented:
September 16, 2013, 12:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I look forward to any opportunity to drive my cars, but particularly, those times when we put the top down and explore less traveled country roads wherever they lead us. As a driving and car enthusiast, I also view cars as artforms, enjoy detailing my cars, and spending time discussing cars with others.

Sometimes, I wish I was in my late teens again, but if I were, I would have missed experiencing firsthand, the transformation of cars from the late 1950's until now.
I feel the same way and have worked hard (and spent a lot of money) to hone my driving skills and learn car control. I am never close to the limits on public roads but the way the car feels on a spirited drive and the way it communicates what it is doing is very important to me.

CA


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beden1 commented:
September 16, 2013, 1:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I feel the same way and have worked hard (and spent a lot of money) to hone my driving skills and learn car control. I am never close to the limits on public roads but the way the car feels on a spirited drive and the way it communicates what it is doing is very important to me.

CA


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Exactly. That's why I think I've finally arrived at the right balance with the Porsche. I didn't realize it at the time, but my 1,620 lb. MG Midget probably communicated the best of any car that I've had since, until now. Now, I have the feel, crystal clear communication, and the power to go along with it.
chiefneil commented:
September 16, 2013, 1:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
E46 fly-by-wire SW was not updated till the 5th year in 03 then again in 05. So don't expect those changes to come anytime soon. Pays to get late model year, post LCI models.
Totally agree. Except my '02 E46 was post-LCI and still has the touchy throttle tip-in.

Driving older BMW's with a mechanical throttle is always such a revelation of what we've lost. I'm still not entirely happy with BMW's electronic throttle implementation, although it's certainly gotten much better.

It's funny looking back at the E46 launch. There was a huge outcry about the overboosted steering, which BMW quickly addressed and offered to retrofit for existing owners. But here we are 2 years after the F30 launch with numerous magazine reviews complaining and no word from BMW. I don't think BMW is too concerned about its EPS or suspension given the lack of reaction from corporate compared to the quick reaction with the E46.
f30jojo commented:
September 16, 2013, 1:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Totally agree. Except my '02 E46 was post-LCI and still has the touchy throttle tip-in.

Driving older BMW's with a mechanical throttle is always such a revelation of what we've lost. I'm still not entirely happy with BMW's electronic throttle implementation, although it's certainly gotten much better.

It's funny looking back at the E46 launch. There was a huge outcry about the overboosted steering, which BMW quickly addressed and offered to retrofit for existing owners. But here we are 2 years after the F30 launch with numerous magazine reviews complaining and no word from BMW. I don't think BMW is too concerned about its EPS or suspension given the lack of reaction from corporate compared to the quick reaction with the E46.
easy... just by the shear number of sales compared to early 2000's EG
(not inlcuding mini sales)
-2001 BMW 880,860 vehicles sold total annual sales

-2012 from 1 jan to 31 june, first 6 months.... 900,539 vehicles sold

- last year alone BMW raised sales across series 1,3,5,6,7 by DOUBLE digit percentile. especially the 1,3,6 series which each saw over a 20% sales increase fiff from 2011.

If the numbers were not almost unbelievably high i could see BMW trying to change a few things. Truth is BMW has never had it so good as 2013 looks to be an even better year than the record breaking 2012 year. Dont forget, BMW is a business... would you change even the slightest thing if your company was making over 100 BILLION is sales yearly?? the numbers are mind boggling.

with that being said im reading alot of BMW's reprots. Their overhead, price of sales, huge taxes, payroll cut inot the gross profits by a huge margin. to the extent of thier net profit was 3 billion in 6 months. which in all regards is outstanding. but compared to thier gross sales, seems odd. then again bmw is a worldwide shipper of autos... and does employ hundreds of thousands of people. many of which take in deep into 6 figures, plus the exec's and the shareholders.... it all adds up
Michael Schott commented:
September 16, 2013, 2:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
E46 fly-by-wire SW was not updated till the 5th year in 03 then again in 05. So don't expect those changes to come anytime soon. Pays to get late model year, post LCI models.
We can only hope. Unfortunately that's not helpful for those of us coming off leases this year. I'm still skeptical that there will be any changes in the future. BMW has said that the EPS has been made sportier in the 4 series along with it's lower CG and stiffer body yet C and D doesn't have anything good to say about it in their recent take.

I think the issue is the way EPS works vs HPS and in particular BMW's HPS implementation. They tuned the E90 and previous 3 series models to handle neutrally and to keep the tires flat on the ground in turns for maximum traction. I'm guessing the combination of toe, camber and caster to do this also contributed to the outstanding steering feel as well as the high effort. And the entire concept of a hydraulic pump doing the assist is far more mechanical than an electric motor. You can probably tune the effort in an EPS but it's still more remote than HPS.
chiefneil commented:
September 16, 2013, 2:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
easy... just by the shear number of sales compared to early 2000's EG
(not inlcuding mini sales)
-2001 BMW 880,860 vehicles sold total annual sales

-2012 from 1 jan to 31 june, first 6 months.... 900,539 vehicles sold

- last year alone BMW raised sales across series 1,3,5,6,7 by DOUBLE digit percentile. especially the 1,3,6 series which each saw over a 20% sales increase fiff from 2011.

If the numbers were not almost unbelievably high i could see BMW trying to change a few things. Truth is BMW has never had it so good as 2013 looks to be an even better year than the record breaking 2012 year. Dont forget, BMW is a business... would you change even the slightest thing if your company was making over 100 BILLION is sales yearly?? the numbers are mind boggling.

with that being said im reading alot of BMW's reprots. Their overhead, price of sales, huge taxes, payroll cut inot the gross profits by a huge margin. to the extent of thier net profit was 3 billion in 6 months. which in all regards is outstanding. but compared to thier gross sales, seems odd. then again bmw is a worldwide shipper of autos... and does employ hundreds of thousands of people. many of which take in deep into 6 figures, plus the exec's and the shareholders.... it all adds up
I get what you're saying but I think it's a red herring. You scale up for these sorts of things as the business grows. Picking any number, even 800k, is arbitrary. Why not 400k? Why not 21M (largest recall in US history)?
captainaudio commented:
September 16, 2013, 3:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Exactly. That's why I think I've finally arrived at the right balance with the Porsche. I didn't realize it at the time, but my 1,620 lb. MG Midget probably communicated the best of any car that I've had since, until now. Now, I have the feel, crystal clear communication, and the power to go along with it.
Got a chance to drive a Caterham a while back. About as raw and bare bones as you can get on four wheels.

CA


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av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Totally agree. Except my '02 E46 was post-LCI and still has the touchy throttle tip-in.

Driving older BMW's with a mechanical throttle is always such a revelation of what we've lost. I'm still not entirely happy with BMW's electronic throttle implementation, although it's certainly gotten much better.

It's funny looking back at the E46 launch. There was a huge outcry about the overboosted steering, which BMW quickly addressed and offered to retrofit for existing owners. But here we are 2 years after the F30 launch with numerous magazine reviews complaining and no word from BMW. I don't think BMW is too concerned about its EPS or suspension given the lack of reaction from corporate compared to the quick reaction with the E46.
If you forget that was released in 01 then took about 1 year to address. You're right, I guess BMW doesn't care about the new EPS steering for now.
chiefneil commented:
September 16, 2013, 4:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
If you forget that was released in 01 then took about 1 year to address. You're right, I guess BMW doesn't care about the new EPS steering for now.
I'm not sure what your point is, or what kind of argument you're trying to make?

It sounds as if you're trying to draw a parallel to the F30. But the F30 has been on the market since 2012 with 2014 models now in production. And the E46 was released in '98 not '01.
av98 commented:
September 16, 2013, 5:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
I'm not sure what your point is, or what kind of argument you're trying to make?

It sounds as if you're trying to draw a parallel to the F30. But the F30 has been on the market since 2012 with 2014 models now in production. And the E46 was released in '98 not '01.
I'm trying to agree with you just pointing out that they used to actually car about the customer feedback, not so much now.


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windsor027 commented:
September 16, 2013, 8:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Sigh, this has been talked about to death in multiple forums. The DHP suspension does not equal the old E9x or E46 sport or ZHP suspensions regardless of trim you put it in. BMW themselves has the DHP algorithm programmed out of the ECU from cars that get the M performance suspension put in; it is a requirement.

THE ONLY THING THAT BMW CURRENTLY OFFERS WHICH IS CLOSE TO THE OLD E9x OR E46 SPORT/ZHP SUSPENSION ON THE F30 IS THE M PERFORMANCE SUSPENSION!

Argh, we need to really sticky that damn F30driver.com topic to this F30 thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...f30+to+e46+zhp

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...766249&page=24


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I had a E90 sport. And I can tell you with the RF tires the car totally sucked. The DHP on sport is infinite times better than the E90 sport. Have you had a chance to drive the DHP equipped E30? I love how some of you guys that haven't lived with both types of suspension day in and day out are praising one over the other.

My E90 was awesome on very smooth roads. Try finding some in today's driving environment. But go into a corner with a bad surface and it was an adventure. With my current car its much more settling in such a corner. We are not talking about a car which people track on weekends man, for day to day driving IMO nothing is better than DHP. Its like having two cars in one.
captainaudio commented:
September 16, 2013, 9:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I had a E90 sport. And I can tell you with the RF tires the car totally sucked. The DHP on sport is infinite times better than the E90 sport. Have you had a chance to drive the DHP equipped E30? I love how some of you guys that haven't lived with both types of suspension day in and day out are praising one over the other.

My E90 was awesome on very smooth roads. Try finding some in today's driving environment. But go into a corner with a bad surface and it was an adventure. With my current car its much more settling in such a corner. We are not talking about a car which people track on weekends man, for day to day driving IMO nothing is better than DHP. Its like having two cars in one.
I agree with your observations on the E9x sport suspension. Had the same issues although I was able to rectify them by ditching the RFTs and installing Koni FSD shocks.

I think adaptive suspensions are definitely the future.

CA


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HELLR0T commented:
September 16, 2013, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
And here it is folks.

Petition

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bmw-suspension.html

Please take a moment to sign it.

Best
"The review the BMW Suspension package for the new 3 series"

Really odd title... BMW is just going to laugh.
fourbmws commented:
September 16, 2013, 11:48 pm

Thanks for a little perspective!

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fourbmws commented:
September 17, 2013, 1:07 am

We're on our third BMW, with a fourth arriving shortly. The cars have all had stellar reliability. The current 3 series has best in class repair statistics per Consumer Reports. Experience matters more than some questionable opinion poll to me.

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pointandgo commented:
September 17, 2013, 1:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourbmws View Post
We're on our third BMW, with a fourth arriving shortly. The cars have all had stellar reliability. The current 3 series has best in class repair statistics per Consumer Reports. Experience matters more than some questionable opinion poll to me.

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Questionable "opinon poll"? If you're talking about JD Powers or Consumer Reports magazine, this is feedback from actual owner's with their cars over time, or test results (CR). What's "questionable" about that?

In the case of JD Powers "IQS" survey of BMW owners over the years, BMW is basically 'stuck' in 16th place...even GM models are rated higher. BMW doesn't have "stellar" reliability ratings...and they don't care.
fourbmws commented:
September 17, 2013, 1:46 am

My BMWs have had stellar reliability and I trust CR's repair stats. JDP plays an expectations game. That doesn't matter tho me.

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NordicBob commented:
September 17, 2013, 2:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Questionable "opinon poll"? If you're talking about JD Powers or Consumer Reports magazine, this is feedback from actual owner's with their cars over time, or test results (CR). What's "questionable" about that?

In the case of JD Powers "IQS" survey of BMW owners over the years, BMW is basically 'stuck' in 16th place...even GM models are rated higher. BMW doesn't have "stellar" reliability ratings...and they don't care.
I just got my third JDP survey for our F30 today. They seem to be most anxious.

How many people buy BMWs for their reliability history?
f30jojo commented:
September 17, 2013, 3:01 am

Furby, I like your posts and respect your opinions. Please understand my response is MY OPINION and not a personal attack.

ACTUALY arranging a petition based on opinion, not fact or truths seems odd. I've said it many times on many threads that this is a forum where 100% of us are spirited driving enthusiasts. We collectively make up a immeasurable amount of buyers. That and most of the people complaining about the F30 suspension either don't even own an F30, or bought one configured improperly for their driving style. this is just my opinion though as I have read plenty of reviews where people are praising the M suspension and prefer it over the E90's, especially DHP equipped vehicles. A lot of " I got standard cushy suspension and upset that a properly equipped BMW out-handles mine!" complaints. sorry if you bought a F30 Xdrive without DHP, you should have known better to be honest. I must agree that yes the F30's standard suspension is much softer than previous models. That being said, M suspension available through Msport 328/335 and through sport pkg on the 320i IMO is OUT f'ing STANDING suspension. Again Furby, this is just a opinionated response and not an attack.
av98 commented:
September 17, 2013, 6:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
I had a E90 sport. And I can tell you with the RF tires the car totally sucked. The DHP on sport is infinite times better than the E90 sport. Have you had a chance to drive the DHP equipped E30? I love how some of you guys that haven't lived with both types of suspension day in and day out are praising one over the other.

My E90 was awesome on very smooth roads. Try finding some in today's driving environment. But go into a corner with a bad surface and it was an adventure. With my current car its much more settling in such a corner. We are not talking about a car which people track on weekends man, for day to day driving IMO nothing is better than DHP. Its like having two cars in one.
Fixed

THE ONLY THING THAT BMW CURRENTLY OFFERS WHICH IS CLOSE TO THE OLDER E46 SPORT/ZHP SUSPENSION ON THE F30 IS THE M PERFORMANCE SUSPENSION!
captainaudio commented:
September 17, 2013, 7:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Fixed

THE ONLY THING THAT BMW CURRENTLY OFFERS WHICH IS CLOSE TO THE OLDER E46 SPORT/ZHP SUSPENSION ON THE F30 IS THE M PERFORMANCE SUSPENSION!
Broken

Examples of which are readily available for test drives at all BMW dealers.

NOT

CA



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windsor027 commented:
September 17, 2013, 7:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I agree with your observations on the E9x sport suspension. Had the same issues although I was able to rectify them by ditching the RFTs and installing Koni FSD shocks.

I think adaptive suspensions are definitely the future.

CA


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totally agree Captain, I ditched the RFs on my E90 the first month I got it. It got better but still on rough roads lets just say the ride was loosing its fun factor fast. That is why I love to get your opinion on your DHP when you get a chance to drive a F30 with it. You are the only one I know in here that has track experience and can tell us what would work on the street and still have fun on the track if we do take it once or twice during ownership.
HDEddie1 commented:
September 18, 2013, 3:17 pm

Good intentions but sadly, it'll fall on deaf ears.
My indy mechanic, who actively mods and tracks BMWs, is also connected with some BMW insiders and think he has a good glimpse of the future. Two things seem compelling:
1) BMW is enjoying worldwide sales success and will continue the trend... offering bigger, more luxurious, tech heavy, maintenance free ride (at least until warranty and free maintenance period is up and the profile of the majority of their buyers apparently support that trend.
2) BMW continues to ride the wave of "the ultimate driving machine" marketing rep and target new buyers. Those new buyers haven't really driven the enthusiast BMWs from a few generations ago so they may not notice. For the diehard enthusiast, we get thrown a bone, albeit an expensive one, the M cars.
Each year I find it harder to remain loyal (My F10 is my sixth BMW) but I don't think BMW really cares.
M_terkait commented:
September 20, 2013, 10:44 am

Well i haven't drove older gens
i own f30 335i with Msport suspension and i feel everything and i feel that it's almost perfect i wish it could be a bit stiffer sometimes..
bt1339 commented:
September 20, 2013, 2:56 pm

323 posts and 5 signatures so far.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 20, 2013, 8:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bt1339 View Post
323 posts and 5 signatures so far.


BJ
fourbmws commented:
September 20, 2013, 9:13 pm

I had a 2000 Audi A6 2.7T that got great reviews and was a piece of crap from a reliability standpoint. That plus I tried five dealers in three states and never found one that did a decent job. I complained to Audi NA and the ultimate response I got was essentially "we see your had more problems than you should have but we're not going to do anything about it". That's what sent me to BMW, where my reliability and service experience has been excellent. Think I'll ever buy another Audi? No way. But BMW still needs to keep earning my loyalty.

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BmwFlooner commented:
September 20, 2013, 9:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


BJ


Am I doing this right?
Guest0319 commented:
September 21, 2013, 11:26 am

I agree. I traded in my 2011 335, RWD, 6SPMT, M-Sport and now wish I had bought it. It was the perfect car for me. The F30 is a great car, but the steering and suspension compared to the E90 are awful. The F30 has high limits but doesn't communicate them the way the E90 does. It is no doubt more comfortable, and after you hit 50 or 60 MPH it turns into a proper BMW, still not as tight and communicative as the E90. I am hoping BMW fixes this with the 4 series and continues to improve it so when I'm ready to turn in this one in in 2 1/2 years the new cars drive like BMWs are supposed to.

I just posted a thread, I am receiving Alerts asking me to "Drive Moderately". Really BMW!! WTF!!!!
RobertaZ commented:
September 23, 2013, 5:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnook View Post
My F30 335i Sport with Sport Suspension on H&R Sport Springs can out manoeuvre my E46 330ci any day of the week.

H&R Sport Springs FTW.
How were the ride and handling before and after you installed the H&Rs? My F30 has the Sports Suspension and I'm thinking about adding the H&R springs as well.
RobertaZ commented:
September 23, 2013, 6:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I've been to Nappa Valley several times.....

If you're satisfied with the ASS, fine. If you're satisfied with the "Buick" steering feel, fine (you're obviosly not a return buyer or BMW enthusiast). That's OK...the F30 is now a "luxury car" and maybe that's what you wanted and rejected a Lexus?
I've been to Napa numerous times as well.....(so what?)

"obviously not a return buyer or BMW enthusiast"???? This is my 3rd BMW and every one has had performance options.

But since you clearly know me well, I'll defer to you......