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Suspension Feeling Loss - Should we Petition

65K views 329 replies 64 participants last post by  RobertaZ 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi All,

So for those of you who owned an e90 and now own an f30, you know that the f30 has lost that love and feeling. The love I am talking about is the suspension. Even those who have DHP the complaint is the suspension is more loose than the e90 (which didn't have the concept of DHP).

I have an X-drive, and in the e90 the road handling was tight - never a complaint. In the f30, it feels loose (like an Altima) and almost dangerous.

What is BMW known for, amongst other cars in it's class (Audi, Lexus, Benz)? It's the suspension. Any car can go fast, any car can go quick, and any car luxurious. BMW is not known for being technologically innovative and tends to follow others. So if the suspension of the 3 series is the same as the other cars, why buy a BMW over those cars? Where is the competative edge? We could spend a lot of time discussing that, and the purpose of this thread is not to do so.

The question, especially since I have never done something like this before, should we start a petition to submit to BMW to make DHP standard, and bring the suspension back to what it was in the e90 (for all models)? For those concerned about the feeling when you ride over rough road, we have many festors who have fixed it by simply updating the shocks and tires (e.g., CaptainAudio). So this is not exactly a hard fix. Essentially, the pendulum swung the other way, and it's killing one of BMWs main competative advantages.

So, should we get a petition going? If we get 1000 signatures, or more, BMW might just listen and fix it (probably during LCI).

Best

PETITION

Petition

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bmw-suspension.html
 
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#92 ·
IMHO post #40 says it all.:thumbup:
cheers
vern
 
#106 ·
For those talking about the increase in roll - C&D did a comparison in the October issue between the E9x and F3x. I don't have the copy in front of me but if I recall, the measures roll was not more in F3x. I thought that was interesting. Hopefully I am remembering correctly. I had an E90 RWD sport suspension and now ordered an AWD M Sport with DHP. In my test drives, I didn't notice the additional body roll. I did notice the looser steering.


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#129 ·
I think part of the reason we keep seeing posts like this is that there aren't enough of the cars at dealers so people either:
(a) Make assumptions about how a certain model will handle (may or may not depending on expectation).
(b) Hope they will grow to like whatever they test drove, even though the test drive didn't blow them away at the time of the test drive.

It took me almost 2 years of research (not full time, though :)) to finally pull the trigger on my order and I still have no idea if I will really like the way the car handles after I get it. But the way I look at it, my current car needs to be replaced, so I might as well take my chances with the F30...if it doesn't work out I'll figure something else out. I have tried DHP and it definitely didn't blow me away, but it did seem to get rid of some of the looseness of the front end, but again I didn't get enough time with it...I didn't even get to try it on the highway because of the weird CA during that drive....plus he didn't know how to get the suspension in comfort while steering/throttle in sport...can't believe how little they know about the cars.

There are a few things BMW nailed with this car which IMO are best in class
- Interior styling
- Engine
- Transmission (if auto)

The suspension and steering feel are definitely not one of them, but what's the alternative? MB (not really much better, but lose the MT...the only one worth driving is the 6 cylinder since their 4 cylinder is underpowered), Audi (don't care for the interior design or the way it shifts), Lexus (no MT, worse MPG, worse performance), ... There really isn't an alternative that does not require giving up something else, or we'd all be buying that.
 
#131 ·
To compare to the "is", you would need to add the MPPK. A $6k-$7k jump in one year is significant.

For reference my similarly loaded 2007 335 was 46k. This one (admittedly with xdrive this time) is just about 57k. That's heavy for a 3 series considering there's a whole bunch of people buying $35k 320s that have a lot of the same features.

In terms of the ride, I still think people are completely exaggerating how floaty these cars are. I test drove a bunch of sport and m sport xdrive 335s (none with DHP since what customer would want that?) and outside of the steering feeling looser, the handling for the street was very competent. I didn't feel like it was light years worse than my E90 RWD with sport package. Up in NY, almost all pf these cars come with RFT all seasons so that contributes to the problem as well. Sure the E90 had heavy steering feel - no doubt about it. I added DHP and am already planning to replace the RFTs this time and I am sure that bit of added benefit will make it perfect for normal street driving. Have others who are complaining sprung for DHP and a nice set of pilot sports?




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#152 · (Edited)
I just get the sense that this whole argument, being played out all day every day on BMW forums worldwide, is a form of misplaced nostalgia for the good old days.

BMWs are different than they were 20 years ago. So are TVs, so is food, so is music, so is financial services, and so is essentially everything around us. We're living in a world where companies must grow, be acquired, or die, and since most of them prefer the first option they do what they need to do in order to win market share and grow revenue. This means, precisely, that BMW is now going for the Lexus target market and they know they need to make some changes to the product in order to attract those people. They are also facing some crippling efficiency and safety rules. Thankfully, they haven't entirely left behind the people who like fast luxury cars that handle well as they go through all this. A 328 goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, people.

BMW makes some fantastic cars. I can't believe the level of luxury and performance that are both present in my F10 535. Nobody has to like the cars BMW is making right now. But when some of you guys suggest that BMW has lost its way, has made mistakes, or is making products in some objective way inferior to what they made in the 80s and 90s - you really aren't understanding that BMW is a business literally threatened with death as an entity every single day.
 
#157 ·
I just get the sense that this whole argument, being played out all day every day on BMW forums worldwide, is a form of misplaced nostalgia for the good old days.

BMWs are different than they were 20 years ago. So are TVs, so is food, so is music, so is financial services, and so is essentially everything around us. We're living in a world where companies must grow, be acquired, or die, and since most of them prefer the first option they do what they need to do in order to win market share and grow revenue. This means, precisely, that BMW is now going for the Lexus target market and they know they need to make some changes to the product in order to attract those people. They are also facing some crippling efficiency and safety rules. Thankfully, they haven't entirely left behind the people who like fast luxury cars that handle well as they go through all this. A 328 goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, people.

BMW makes some fantastic cars. I can't believe the level of luxury and performance that are both present in my F10 535. Nobody has to like the cars BMW is making right now. But when some of you guys suggest that BMW has lost its way, has made mistakes, or is making products in some objective way inferior to what they made in the 80s and 90s - you really aren't understanding that BMW is a business literally threatened with death as an entity every single day.
Bravo.

My measly 2013 F30 328i with a paltry 4 cylinder engine does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. That's faster than a 1996 M3.

BJ
 
#165 ·
Damn, this thread will never end :)

I still say that if you do your research and test drive before buying, you should have a pretty good idea what you're getting. Maybe the car is not what you'd like it to be (or think it should be), but it is what it is. If I paid $40-50k for a car and then complained about the way it drives, people would call me a fool. And comparing it to Altima's, Buick's, etc....come on.
 
#166 · (Edited)
A test drive at the dealer for a few minutes does not give a very complete picture. I test drove several e93 and went with the sport suspension as both my wife and I preferred the way it drove compared to the base suspension.
In spite of the test drives and on spite of driving the car 2000 miles in South Florida after I picked it up I was totally unprepared for the "Pothole Explosion" issue on New York area roads.

In the case of the 750Lix I was able to arrange an extended trst drive over the 4 dau Memorial Day Weekend and I knew exactly how the car drove on the environment it would be used in,

CA


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#171 ·
Still cracks me up people think any 3 series is a luxury car. I think most people's ego feels better when they say or think it's a luxury sedan. FYI, luxury does not mean back up cameras, iPod connectivity, active cruise... Those are nice features, Don't get me wrong. But they don't make it luxury. Mercedes S class, BMW 7, Audi 8 are luxury cars. Hell even a 5 series to me is borderline. Anyway my point is connectivity doesn't mean luxury. And by the way, just my opinion... A 320i sport pkg is just as much a sport sedan as a 335i dhp. Agreed the 335 is faster in a straight line, but in technical twisties. They're the same car, sorry to bust your bubble. Also, you can load up a 320 with just about every option a 335 has except dhp, but honestly I'd take the true static M suspension over that anyway.

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#175 ·
I'm sure people who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce think an S class is not a luxury car. C'mon. Obviously there are many levels of luxury. The 3 series (with at least leather) is an entry level of luxury vehicle.

And a 320 is not a 335. In fact , I'm disappointed that it is even offered. The 328 was a good entry level 3 series.


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#176 ·
I'm sure people who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce think an S class is not a luxury car. C'mon. Obviously there are many levels of luxury. The 3 series (with at least leather) is an entry level of luxury vehicle.

And a 320 is not a 335. In fact , I'm disappointed that it is even offered. The 328 was a good entry level 3 series.

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This. The ony reason why BMW has the 318i and the 320i is because of tax laws in Europe where more than 2 liter cars get taxed at preposterous rates.
 
#185 ·
Don't you think enough is enough. Like I said its all in post # 40. Research,research and have a capable CA that will lead you in the right direction. Stop whining it was your mistake don't blame it on the manufacture..
cheers
vern
 
#201 ·
Vern.
It's not about making a mistake. It's also not about research. Look around at your local dealers, good luck finding a car that is exactly what you want for a test drive. It's pretty darn hard to do so. In my case, there were ZERO m-sport, DHP, x-drive cars on the SIX dealerships. Many people don't even have those kinds of options. Reading posts on people's perceptions is not good enough, because people don't think the same.

Also, DHP is not the same as what was before
 
#211 ·
Sorry you don't like your car. Maybe waiting until there were cars available for test driving before ordering would have been a better option. It sucks when the exact model you want isn't on the lot. I've been in the same situation and ordered anyway knowing the risk. Luckily it's always worked out for me, but it was a risk just the same. IMO though, taking that risk removes the option to complain after the fact. A petition seems silly to me...but ya never know. In the mean time maybe there is an aftermarket solution that will help you enoy your new car a little more. Good luck with it.
 
#188 · (Edited)
I took similar flack when I dared to criticize the harshness of the E93 sport suspension. I thoroughly researched the purchase, went to several dealers and test drove several cars. In spite of all of that I was totally unprepared for "pothole explosions", which is a well document issue with the E9x sport suspension. I have spoken to reps from BMWNA who acknowledged that it was an issue.

When I posted my concerns I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, I didn't appreciate that great BMW engineering and of course received the apparently obligatory "Buy a Lexus" response.

The bottom line is that if BMW had not received feedback from unhappy customers they may not have rectified the issue. Now many feel that they may have gone too far in the other direction and those who feel that way should feel free to express their concerns.

IMO there is no valid reason for excessive body roll. It is absolutely possible to design a suspension that handles poor road surfaces without jarring the occupants or upsetting the car, has good road feel and steering feed back and that corners without excessive body roll. To accept anything less or to dismiss those who do not, you are not doing a service to yourself, other owners or to BMW.

The squeaky wheel gets oiled first. You can have the best of both worlds and you should demand nothing less.

CA




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#192 ·
I took similar flack when I dared to criticize the harshness of the E93 sport suspension. I thoroughly researched the purchase, went to several dealers and test drove several cars. In spite of all of that I was totally unprepared for "pothole explosions", which is a well document issue with the E9x sport suspension. I have spoken to reps from BMWNA who acknowledged that it was an issue.

When I posted my concerns I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, I didn't appreciate that great BMW engineering and of course received the apparently "Buy a Lexus" response.

The bottom line is that if BMW had not received feedback from unhappy customers they may not have rectified the issue. Now many feel that they may have gone too far in the other direction and those who feel that way should towel free to express their concerns.

CA

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#189 · (Edited)
Deleted
 
#190 ·
Back to the original point of this thread, has anybody written to BMWNA or given the same feedback to their respective dealer in force?

Especially for the AWD component of this thread, seems that you are the most affected w/o DHP or other upgrade paths via the factory for improvement or correction.


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#193 ·
This is the new BMW. Love it or hate it. My next car purchase won't be a BMW in two years if it stays like this. I don't think BMW had struck the right balance of comfort and sport.


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#195 ·
This is the new BMW. Love it or hate it. My next car purchase won't be a BMW in two years if it stays like this. I don't think BMW had struck the right balance of comfort and sport.

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Sorta agree with you, kinda. Problem is even as BMW is getting softer around the edges. They're still the best at what they do. Audi, Mercedes, infinity, Lexus still cannot capture the feeling of driving a BMW. That's number one why I'll stick around :). I must admit the new jaguar xf, and even the Audi a6 are gorgeous vehicles.

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#197 ·
I also feel that my E90 (with SS) absolutely blew my F30 (with 704 SS) away in both cornering and ride integrity. I used to ignore speed bumps in the E90. The F30 bangs harshly if I try to do that.

So, I'll be putting H&R springs in my F30 in the next few weeks. I don't expect it to handle like my E90, but it will hopefully handle the bumps and corners a bit better.
 
#200 ·
Holy wow batman. I get busy with work and wedding (crunch time) and this thread took a life of it's own. I will try and read from my last post. One thing, for sure, there is a lot of debate here.

One of my concerns are people who believe their car "can do no wrong". Try and take out the emotional factor. What does the car do today, what did it do yesterday. Last years model had issues, it could be too stiff for many people and we would get the "jarring" effect when we ran over a small hole. They compensated for this, but did they go too far? Now the car feels floaty. I remember doing one of the test drive events two years ago (test 335d, Audi and Benz). I likened the benz to an old, 400 pound prostitute....too aged, too many rolls, and way too loose. That feeling is not too far from what we get today.

BMW took away the suspension and said, "if you want something similar to what we had, then pay up. it won't be the same, but pay up anyhow".

Well shoot, this is a sports luxury car, not a luxury car. They made it more like the e60 (e90 = 178 inches, f30 = 182 inches, and 360 = 190 inches). Heck they got rid of the oval side mirrors for the squarish ones which are 5 series style

I am not saying we should go back to the mouth jarring e90, but there is a happy medium somewhere. CaptainAudio always complained about his e90 suspension and almost dumped his car...he was able to fix it with different tires and shocks - why couldn't BMW do that? Why not make the DHP Option a Standard? It would make the sport lovers happy, and still work for the soccer moms. It's not unprecedented (though the other way). Do any of you recall how, for a few years, BMW gave an automatic credit? So there was no price difference between auto and manual. They did this to appease non-manual drivers. So how about do something to appease the sport driver?

As soon as things settle down I plan to read the entire thread. Based on recommendations (and please give some more) I will create a website where people can fill in their very basic contact information (Name, E-mail, car model). Once this is done, submit the petition to BMW (write a letter to the president) showing support for BMW to make a change.
 
#202 ·
I remember doing one of the test drive events two years ago (test 335d, Audi and Benz). I likened the benz to an old, 400 pound prostitute....too aged, too many rolls, and way too loose.
Back when I had my Audi, I did a similar comparison of "Die Großen Drei" and I came up with a similar assessment of the Benz, although nothing as eloquent and illustrative of how it really felt than what you just said there!

:bustingup

I have always felt that the Benz was meant to be ridden in and the BMW was meant to be driven (and as an Audi owner at that time, the Audi was that other guy that was doing a good job, but no one really knew who he was)

I think you really hit it on the head, by the way, with your comment about most of us needing to remove emotion from it all. I'm still pretty new here, and pretty new BMW - coming from a long line of VW/Audi group cars, I have a different perspective on a lot of this stuff. It's been really interesting to see how people have reacted to the changes over the last few years. My best friend has an E9x that I've driven a few times up and down the PCH when I've been out to visit him, but I can't make a legit comparison to how that experience compares to the daily slog of driving in the Midwest where the biggest hills I encounter are painted yellow and accompanied by a "BUMP" sign...
 
#205 ·
Sales are up for what? Company as a whole or 3 series? Is it possible that sales are up because leases are up and we are in the new cycle or is it because they got new customers (coming from other cars).

Even, if that number is best case scenario (all new customers from different brands) - if you think BMW doesn't listen to it's customers then you are as new to the automotive industry as you are to this forum. Case-in-point -> Automatic Credit that made auto and manual same price for several years, softening of the suspension, making the HPFP a recall item with 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty.

There are many items that show BMW listens...they especially do for an organized list. Just a matter of getting that list in front of the correct people
 
#213 · (Edited)
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't have 2 hours to read all 9 pages of this thread.

RE: The petition idea: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Visit the F10 board and witness the insulting way BMNA is handling a (very valid) complaint. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716980

Cliff Notes summary: Those of us with 2011's and 2012's hate the floaty suspension, even with DHP. In 2013, BMW introduced a "true" (mechanical) M Sport suspension for the RWD cars. It is sublime. The big heavy F10 rides and handles like an E9X M3. (I know because I drove my 535i xDrive with DHP to the local Ultimate Drive event, where I spent a half hour with the 2013 535i M Sport) A night and day difference that transforms the car.

So what's not to like (and what's the point of this post)? The website and ordering guides indicated the 2014 RWD M Sports would also have this same magical, mechanical suspension. A bunch of "Festers salivated over the prospect of the LCI with the "perfect" suspension and got early allocations, some (Like Alan L.) picking theirs up ED. One problem: BMWNA decided to "de-content" the M Sport suspension, so all the 2014's built before September came with the standard, wallowy, non-M suspension. To say the owners are pissed is an understatement.

Angry emails ensued. BMWNA admitted they made a mistake, and would "make things right" for those affected. After a couple weeks of double-speak, they offered the following carrot. The offending cars' suspensions would NOT be replaced / upgraded to what the buyers had been told they were getting. Instead, the corporate position was "work it out with your dealer, we'll give you $390 for your trouble." So the owners have $80,000 M Sports that handle like a base 528. The bottom line: BMW doesn't give a sh*t. Sales are good, and they are okay p*ssing off the true believers.

Sad but true.
 
#221 ·
You want BMW to listen? Do an extensive drive and vote with your wallet. Once sales plummet, they'll listen. Otherwise, BMW is just going to keep doing what they're doing because obviously the formula is working.
 
#222 ·
#228 ·
Wait for an oportunity to test drive and experience what you'll be getting. Otherwise you shouldn't complain ;)

I was happy after test driving the 328i, and expect to me happy when it arrives. I'm guessing most others are pretty happy also. I thought there were a lot of whiners on the E9x forum. This one might have them beat....
 
#229 ·
Or at minimum, try to find out what you don't like/can't live with. That is why I am surprised that you guys that wanted as close as possible too E9x suspension, didn't just add DHP to be safe. $1000 or $15-16 dollars extra a month seems like cheap insurance to avoid the chance you hate the base suspension like you some of you guys do.
 
#232 · (Edited)
Minn19 - that's what I did. I still haven't driven one with DHP, nor summer tires, nor 6mt. Everything here in the NE is square set up all season cars with auto.

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Everything was xDrive here. I think there was one RWD car between the two dealerships in town when I was looking. Like you guys everything had, A/S square setups and no DHP. There were a couple 335 MSports that were 6mt, they may have had summers, can't remember.

Hope you like your car! If you don't, please please be more creative then the it drove like a Camry/Buick comments. ;)
 
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