Recall for 2012-14 BMWs for dangerous loss of braking

by Bernie McGroarty on September 27, 2013, 4:04 pm
BMW recalls 3 series 5 series X1 X5 Z4 with N20 or N26 engine

Delivery of N20 and N26 powered vehicles stopped as a result of power brake assist problem

On September 26th, BMW of North America announced to NHTSA its intention to conduct a voluntary Recall on certain 2012-2014 model year BMW 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X3 and Z4 models equipped with the N20 or N26 engine, produced from May 2012 to August 2013.

Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships.

The Problem:
The oil supply from the intake camshaft to the brake vacuum pump can become restricted. If this happens the brake vacuum pump could fail due to lack of lubrication, resulting in a loss of power brake assist.

The hydraulic brakes will still function to stop the vehicle but without power assist. Without assist the driver will need to apply much greater pedal pressure to stop the vehicle. The distance required to stop the vehicle will increase as most drivers will not be able to apply enough brake pedal pressure.

In the event of a loss of brake power assist pull the emergency brake and apply as much brake pedal pressure as possible. If your BMW has an electronic parking brake pull up and hold the switch to engage the brake.

Move away from traffic and park in a safe location as soon as possible. Contact BMW Roadside Assistance and have your vehicle taken to the nearest BMW dealer.

Solution and Repair
A repair solution for vehicles already on the road is under development and not available at this time. Existing owners will be notified of the recall in November by letter and again in December by letter when parts are available. Wait to receive your notification letter before contacting your dealership for service. The repair letter will be sent when the dealership has the necessary parts, tools and procedures to preform the repair.

The solution involves inserting a locking ring onto the camshaft so the oil supply to the brake assist vacuum pump is not impaired. The repair will take approximately two hours but can vary depending on your BMW dealers schedule. The repair will be preformed free of charge.

Affected Models
  • 2012-14 320i/328i, 320i/328i xDrive Sedan manufactured between May 2012 – August 2013
  • 2014 328i xDrive Sports Wagon manufactured between March 2013 – May 2013
  • 2012-13 528i, 528i xDrive Sedan manufactured between June 2012 – June 2013
  • 2013-14 X1 sDrive28i, X1 xDrive28i manufactured between June 2012 – June 2013
  • 2013-14 X3 xDrive28i manufactured between June 2012 – August 2013
  • 2012-14 Z4 sDrive28i manufactured between June 2012 – June 2013
Models not list are not affected due to different lubrication and vacuum pump designs.

Number of vehicles affected in the US
Up to 76,190 BMWs are affected by this safety issue. The model break down is as follows -
  • 2012-14 320i/328i, 320i/328i xDrive Sedan - 37,473 potentially affected
  • 2014 328i xDrive Sports Wagon - 176 potentially affected
  • 2012-13 528i, 528i xDrive Sedan - 12,708 potentially affected
  • 2013-14 X1 sDrive28i, X1 xDrive28i - 10,547 potentially affected
  • 2013-14 X3 xDrive28i - 14,517 potentially affected
  • 2012-14 Z4 sDrive28i - 770 potentially affected

Known accidents
BMW is aware of three minor accidents with no confirmed injuries as a result of this problem. The NTSB has 7 reported incidents but that does not mean they have 7 accident reports. Vehicles affected have experienced the failure at low millage. It is not clear if having a higher mileage car means you will not have the failure.

Should you continue to drive your N20/N26 powered BMW
BMW says it is safe to continue to drive your vehicle for now. As soon as you get the service letter that will be coming in December you should have the recall work performed. If you feel a loss of braking power pull to the side of the road and have your BMW towed to the nearest dealer by BMW Roadside Assistance.

Are 4 series deliveries going to be affected
BMW has not commented at this time on the 4 series. Models produced as recently as August are affected so it is possible early production 4 series (production started in July) will be held at the vehicle delivery center until the repair is available. We will continue to follow the 4 series delivery story and provided updated information as it happens.

What to do now
We have no choice but to wait for the letters and more information from BMW. In the mean time everyone be careful out there. There are 7 reported incidences of issues to the NTSB so far. The NTSB estimates that for ever report there are 40+ incidents that are not reported. Has anyone had trouble loss of brake assist in their N20/N26 powered BMW? Does this make anyone nervous to drive their BMW?

Recall Update:

This is a follow-up to the delivery stop announcement of certain N20 and N26-equipped models. Vehicles on the delivery stop VIN list must not be retailed or delivered until the defect has been corrected.

Technical Description
An oil plug in the intake camshaft may become displaced, restricting oil supply to the vacuum pump. Continued operation may lead to failure of the vacuum pump, resulting in loss of power-assist braking. Only camshafts from one supplier exhibit this issue; therefore, not all N20 and N26-equipped vehicles are involved in the delivery stop and Recall.

A repair solution is under development to secure the intake camshaft oil plug, but will not be available before December.

Customer Notification
Owners of vehicles which have already been delivered will receive initial notification in November, informing them of the issue. A second letter will be mailed in December, advising customers to schedule an appointment with your center to have the Recall completed, when parts and the repair procedure become available.


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377 responses to Recall for 2012-14 BMWs for dangerous loss of braking

kkapdolee commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:17 pm

Thanks for the post. If BMW were to send me the letter, will it be sent from BMWNA or the dealership I bought my car from? I have two different addresses listed as I had moved since taking delivery.
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie@Bimmerfest View Post
September 27, 2013
Delivery of N20 and N26 powered vehicles stopped as a result of power brake assist problem

On September 26th, BMW of North America announced to NHTSA its intention to conduct a voluntary Recall on certain 2012-2014 model year BMW 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X3 and Z4 models equipped with the N20 or N26 engine, produced from May 2012 to August 2013.

Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships.

Situation:
The oil supply from the intake camshaft to the brake vacuum pump could become restricted. If this were to occur, the vacuum pump could fail due to lack of lubrication, resulting in a loss of power brake assist.

A repair solution for vehicles already on the road is under development and not available at this time. Existing owners will be informed of the recall in November by letter and again when parts become available.

In the mean time everyone be careful out there. There are 7 reported incidences of issues and the NTSB estimates that for ever report there are 40+ incidents that are not reported. Has anyone had trouble with their BMW? Does this make anyone nervous to drive their N20/N26 powered BMW?
So no sales no leases for now?
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
So no sales no leases for now?
Correct.
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:45 pm

My car is in transit, how do I figure out if it's impacted? is there a list of VIN numbers?
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Correct.
Holly sh*t
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
My car is in transit, how do I figure out if it's impacted? is there a list of VIN numbers?
Prob call your dealer. We don't have a list of effected VINs.
PK2348 commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
So no sales no leases for now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Correct.
Wow, and they have no fix for it currently, so it means all 4 cylinder BMWs are grounded on dealer lots for an indefinite amount of time?
Does it affect 4 series? People waiting for their 428s will not be happy!!!
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Wow, and they have no fix for it currently, so it means all 4 cylinder BMWs are grounded on dealer lots for an indefinite amount of time?
Does it affect 4 series? People waiting for their 428s will not be happy!!!
Isn't N20-N26 used for 1, 3, 4 and 5 series?
MMME30W commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:54 pm

Dayum. This will not end well.
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:55 pm

I should clarify that the effected engine count is not yet known. It could only be engines with parts from certain factories or whatever As it stands we don't know and it could be a ton of cars.

Tim
MMME30W commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I should clarify that the effected engine count is not yet known. It could only be engines with parts from certain factories or whatever As it stands we don't know and it could be a ton of cars.

Tim
Stickie?
PK2348 commented:
September 27, 2013, 4:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
Isn't N20-N26 used for 1, 3, 4 and 5 series?
it is, except for 1, i think 128 still has N52, also X1, X3, and Z4 have N20/26 i think.
I read it affects vehicles manufactured through august of 2013. Appears September built cars are not part of the recall. When did prroduction start for the 4er?
I wonder how they fixed it in September production?
HugH commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkapdolee View Post
Thanks for the post. If BMW were to send me the letter, will it be sent from BMWNA or the dealership I bought my car from? I have two different addresses listed as I had moved since taking delivery.
If you filed a change of address with your old local Post Office, the mail will be forwarded to whatever address you gave them, free of charge.

You might want to contact BMW directly and rectify the situation.
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
it is, except for 1, i think 128 still has N52, also X1, X3, and Z4 have N20/26 i think.
I read it affects vehicles manufactured through august of 2013. Appears September built cars are not part of the recall. When did prroduction start for the 4er?
I wonder how they fixed it in September production?
engines manufactured, not cars
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:09 pm

What is the source of this article? Is there an external link?
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
My car is in transit, how do I figure out if it's impacted? is there a list of VIN numbers?
Same here.

This website which is used for checking recalls doesn't seem to be working.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...er/Recall.aspx
jamesms69 commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:14 pm

Wow! I'm glad they have responded relatively quickly to the NHTSA investigation. I'm hoping the -August 2013 is true, as my September production is on the boat, and I could not wait a day longer than I already have to!

Good luck to anyone that is affected.
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
it is, except for 1, i think 128 still has N52, also X1, X3, and Z4 have N20/26 i think.
I read it affects vehicles manufactured through august of 2013. Appears September built cars are not part of the recall. When did prroduction start for the 4er?
I wonder how they fixed it in September production?
4 series production started in July. It is likely the 428s will be held as a result of this. I'm updated the first post with more information.
Orient330iNYC commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesms69 View Post
Wow! I'm glad they have responded relatively quickly to the NHTSA investigation. I'm hoping the -August 2013 is true, as my September production is on the boat, and I could not wait a day longer than I already have to!

Good luck to anyone that is affected.
it may be related to engine production date (produced in adv of car production)
we'll need to see the chassis number ranges
tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:25 pm

I have no doubt BMW is working on this as fast as humanly possible, but it is going to be at least somewhat of a PR nightmare. I imagine this will be a national news headline maker - BMW suspends sales as thousands and thousands of the latest edition of BMW's most popular models recalled for possible brake failure. Oy vey!!
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:33 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Same here.

This website which is used for checking recalls doesn't seem to be working.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...er/Recall.aspx
I checked it, it says call customer service, I doubt it would be there anyway since it's not formally announced to the public.
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:34 pm

I just got a word from my SM, he says, if it's impacted, it should not delay delivery for more than 1 day. I don't think I'm buying that.
capt_slow commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:34 pm

So there's no sales of affected cars, but how does this recall affect orders?

Specifically, how does it affect a dealer's ability to place orders?

I was just about to send in my order today...
Crom! commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:37 pm

Ah geez, my 2014 328i finished production on 9/13/2014 and it's already in transit in the mid Atlantic. What should I do? I already paid a 1000 deposit. Should I cancel my order? Can I get my deposit back?
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom! View Post
Ah geez, my 2014 328i finished production on 9/13/2014 and it's already in transit in the mid Atlantic. What should I do? I already paid a 1000 deposit. Should I cancel my order? Can I get my deposit back?
And buy what 335?
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom! View Post
Ah geez, my 2014 328i finished production on 9/13/2014 and it's already in transit in the mid Atlantic. What should I do? I already paid a 1000 deposit. Should I cancel my order? Can I get my deposit back?
Why cancel? They are going to fix it. It's just that it may delay delivery.
pony_trekker commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:43 pm

Fvckin glad I opted for the F10 with a 6 yo
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:44 pm

Ok, deep breath, we may not be impacted with September production
Quote:
2012-14 320i/328i, 320i/328i xDrive Sedan manufactured between May 2012 – August 2013
Crom! commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
And buy what 335?
I don't know. This is a problem because my wife is using the only other car we have and all I got is a pair of sneakers I use to get work
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony_trekker View Post
Fvckin glad I opted for the F10 with a 6 yo
Depends on which one you got...
2012-13 528i, 528i xDrive Sedan - 12,708 potentially affected
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:50 pm

Updated information added to the first post!

Tim
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I have no doubt BMW is working as fast as humanly possible on this, but it is going to be at least somewhat of a PR nightmare. I imagine this will be a national news headline maker - BMW suspends sales as thousands and thousands of the latest edition of BMW's most popular models recalled for possible brake failure. Oy vey!!
I could give a damn about BMW's potential PR problems - I care about the safety of my family. At this moment - since BMW cannot tell us definitively if our cars are safe - I must assume my new $50K 328xi Sport-line is unsafe. Indeed, dealers are being told not to sell cars on their lots. The least BMW should do is rebate lease payments on affected cars until a fix is fully implemented. It is unconscionable to ask us to knowingly to compromise the safety of our families - and have no ready plan to boot.
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 5:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I could give a damn about BMW's potential PR problems - I care about the safety of my family. At this moment - since BMW cannot tell us definitively if our cars are safe - I must assume my new $50K 328xi Sport-line is unsafe. Indeed, dealers are being told not to sell cars on their lots. The least BMW should do is rebate lease payments on affected cars until a fix is fully implemented. It is unconscionable to ask us to knowingly to compromise the safety of our families - and have no ready plan to boot.
BMW feels it is still safe for you to drive the car.

Tim
poudre commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:03 pm

Perhaps this is the reason my 428i, which was produced August 26th, is not even on a boat yet!



beden1 commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I could give a damn about BMW's potential PR problems - I care about the safety of my family. At this moment - since BMW cannot tell us definitively if our cars are safe - I must assume my new $50K 328xi Sport-line is unsafe. Indeed, dealers are being told not to sell cars on their lots. The least BMW should do is rebate lease payments on affected cars until a fix is fully implemented. It is unconscionable to ask us to knowingly to compromise the safety of our families - and have no ready plan to boot.
At least BMW is stepping up to the plate early for this issue which shows they care about customer safety. They could have played the wait and see game like others have done.
tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I could give a damn about BMW's potential PR problems - I care about the safety of my family. At this moment - since BMW cannot tell us definitively if our cars are safe - I must assume my new $50K 328xi Sport-line is unsafe. Indeed, dealers are being told not to sell cars on their lots. The least BMW should do is rebate lease payments on affected cars until a fix is fully implemented. It is unconscionable to ask us to knowingly to compromise the safety of our families - and have no ready plan to boot.
I agree, this is a nightmare, period. It doesn't help the current owners, but BMW certainly is between a rock and a hard place - how to handle the fact that the failure is unlikely, BUT there are thousands of affected vehicles out there on the road? How are those owners supposed to feel safe driving their cars until the repair is made? And what can can BMW realistically do to address that situation?
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
BMW feels it is still safe for you to drive the car.

Tim
Really? Are you going to put your family at risk on such a thin reassurance given we know there is a potential problem with a major safety system?

I am not trying to be difficult about this - I am concerned for my family's safety and right now BMW cannot assure me that the brakes on my particular car are safe...

Since there are no telltale failure precursors - I guess, if my brakes do not fail - my car is safe but if my brakes fail - car is not safe.....
bt1339 commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:25 pm

tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Really? Are you going to put your family at risk on such a thin reassurance given we know there is a potential problem with a major safety system?

I am not trying to be difficult about this - I am concerned for my family's safety and right now BMW cannot assure me that the brakes on my particular car are safe...

Since there are no telltale failure precursors - I guess, if my brakes do not fail - my car is safe but if my brakes fail - car is not safe.....
This doesn't help the situation, but IF the NTHSA's estimate is correct that there are 40 incidents for every one reported and they have seven reports then out of the 76,000 vehicles affected there have been approximately 280 incidents with no reported injuries....yet. That's a less than 4/10 of one percent failure rate so far.
tim330i commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Really? Are you going to put your family at risk on such a thin reassurance given we know there is a potential problem with a major safety system?

I am not trying to be difficult about this - I am concerned for my family's safety and right now BMW cannot assure me that the brakes on my particular car are safe...

Since there are no telltale failure precursors - I guess, if my brakes do not fail - my car is safe but if my brakes fail - car is not safe.....
Just telling you what BMW is saying. They specifically state it is safe to drive your vehicle.
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
This doesn't help the situation, but IF the NTHSA's estimate is correct that there are 40 incidents for every one reported and they have seven reports then out of the 76,000 vehicles affected there have been approximately 280 incidents with no reported injuries....yet. That's a less than 4/10 of one percent failure rate so far.
"Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships."

This would indicate that BMW thinks this is not insignificant and potentially could have catastrophic consequences.

Point is no one knows the extent of the problem - only that a serious problem exists - your hypothetical statistic will provide little solace to my family if my car is experiences a failure.
zoombie99 commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:43 pm

I guess I am lucky, my 428 just started production.


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mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
"Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships."

This would indicate that BMW thinks this is not insignificant and potentially could have catastrophic consequences.

Point is no one knows the extent of the problem - only that a serious problem exists - your hypothetical statistic will provide little solace to my family if my car is experiences a failure.
Interesting...so cars on the boat now will be fixed at the port/VPC?
PK2348 commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
At least BMW is stepping up to the plate early for this issue which shows they care about customer safety. They could have played the wait and see game like others have done.
i think they were fast to address it once investigation was started by the Highway Safety agency. Reports of brake failures have been around since at least beginning of 2013. There is a sticky on it on the other board.
It happened to me once this summer, at a very slow speed, and the dealer was like, nah can't replicate it.
greywolf328i commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:47 pm

From all the situations we've seen reported on here, the loss of power occurs at low speed and the car rolls a couple feet more than someone would expect. Chance of fender benders yes, chance for injury, not likely.

The description also shows your losing breaking power assist. I've been in a car when this happened before, it is not the end of the world. You just have to brake like a car would from the 50s - jam the pedal to the floor. Also as mentioned, the e-brake still works. I'm not saying there's no reason for concern, but I will still be driving mine until they tell me it's not safe and offer me a replacement.
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
i think they were fast to address it once investigation was started by the Highway Safety agency. Reports of brake failures have been around since at least beginning of 2013. There is a sticky on it on the other board.
It happened to me once this summer, at a very slow speed, and the dealer was like, nah can't replicate it.
I'm sure an MBA at BMW did some quick calculations and came up with the result:
(Cost-of-delaying fix + cost-of-potential-lawsuits + bad PR) >> (Cost-of-recall + bad PR)
mr_clueless commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:50 pm

Does this affect non-US Cars?
328AL commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by poudre View Post
Perhaps this is the reason my 428i, which was produced August 26th, is not even on a boat yet!



I don't think that's the reason, there is nothing they can do there until it hits VDC. Are you sure your car is not on a boat yet, that's a long time?
tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 6:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
"Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships."

This would indicate that BMW thinks this is not insignificant and potentially could have catastrophic consequences.

Point is no one knows the extent of the problem - only that a serious problem exists - your hypothetical statistic will provide little solace to my family if my car is experiences a failure.
I'm not trying to provide solace for you. I'm just commenting on the facts and logistics of a difficult and complicated situation BMW has to deal with.
zoombie99 commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:14 pm

Why isn't there anything on the national news outlets?


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tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoombie99 View Post
Why isn't there anything on the national news outlets?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Looks like it's true - release bad news late on a Friday afternoon.


Interesting situation - weekend coinciding with the end of the month, many sales to be closed before the close of business on Monday and their most popular car can't be delivered. Can you just imagine what it's going to look like in BMW showrooms this weekend??
Greg @ East Bay BMW commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
"Affected vehicles in dealer inventories will not be sold or delivered to customers until the recall repair has been performed. Vehicles at BMW vehicle delivery centers will be corrected before shipment to dealerships."

This would indicate that BMW thinks this is not insignificant and potentially could have catastrophic consequences.

Point is no one knows the extent of the problem - only that a serious problem exists - your hypothetical statistic will provide little solace to my family if my car is experiences a failure.
Issues must be fixed on vehicles before they can be sold.
tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg @ East Bay BMW View Post
Lots of different recalls stop the sale of a vehicle from extremely minor to major. Recalls must be fixed on vehicles before they can be sold.

They know exactly the problem and how to fix it. They are advising to continue to drive your vehicle as you can still use the brakes to stop your vehicle and the emergency break if you experience a failure of the power assist feature.

There have been a total three minor accidents involving single vehicles with NO confirmed injuries.
Greg, is it true?? Are y'all completely stopped on sales and delivery on these cars right now? It'll be an interesting weekend.
Greg @ East Bay BMW commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Greg, is it true?? Are y'all completely stopped on sales and delivery on these cars right now? It'll be an interesting weekend.
Only with the vehicles affected by the issue.
poudre commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:55 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
I don't think that's the reason, there is nothing they can do there until it hits VDC. Are you sure your car is not on a boat yet, that's a long time?
What do you think the reason for the car sitting around for over 30 days after production is?


I am sure. That's what the 800 line says, that's what the sales person says, and that's what the "My BMW" website says.
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 7:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg @ East Bay BMW View Post
Only with the vehicles affected by the recall. (10-15 or so in-stock cars)
Yeah...my car - and explain the "few feet before you come to a stop" to the family in the cross walk who darted out in front of you.

Yeah - relax - this is not brain surgery......yet
nrock commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:04 pm

I'm supposed to take delivery at the performance center on Wednesday. August build 328xi. Signed the documents last night. I wonder if they will cancel?


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Greg @ East Bay BMW commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Yeah...my car - and explain the "few feet before you come to a stop" to the family in the cross walk who darted out in front of you.

Yeah - relax - this is not brain surgery......yet
A few feet? How fast are you going in these residential areas?
mmille24 commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:30 pm

Hopefully this drops the numbers for next month! I'm in the market!
jerflash commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:34 pm

I am picking up my 428i tomorrow. I have heard nothing from my dealer about the recall but reading about it now. The 428i is not on the list even though having the same motor as all affected cars. I think it had to do with not wanting to delay the debut of the car. I will take delivery but at the first sign of trouble i am bringing her back!!
greywolf328i commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Yeah...my car - and explain the "few feet before you come to a stop" to the family in the cross walk who darted out in front of you.

Yeah - relax - this is not brain surgery......yet
That's why the hood was redesigned to aid in pedestrian impacts. I would also explain to the family it is survival of the fittest since they were jaywalking.

But in all seriousness, these cars and engines have been out for almost 3 years. The probability of failure is low, and failure occurs at low speed. Also has anyone reported the issue with a MT? No one in the other thread ever responded in regards to it. All AT drivers from what I saw.
Cjs2002 commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:40 pm

I called my SA and was told that my VIN (2013 328 ix, January build) was "not currently on any affected list" but. I could still schedule an appointment for the brakes to be reviewed. I chose a Thursday appointment with the hope that they have heir act together by then.
Greg @ East Bay BMW commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
That's why the hood was redesigned to aid in pedestrian impacts. I would also explain to the family it is survival of the fittest since they were jaywalking.

But in all seriousness, these cars and engines have been out for almost 3 years. The probability of failure is low, and failure occurs at low speed. Also has anyone reported the issue with a MT? No one in the other thread ever responded in regards to it. All AT drivers from what I saw.
MT or AT
watson335i commented:
September 27, 2013, 8:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom! View Post
Ah geez, my 2014 328i finished production on 9/13/2014 and it's already in transit in the mid Atlantic. What should I do? I already paid a 1000 deposit. Should I cancel my order? Can I get my deposit back?
Talk about a "knee - jerk" reaction... Get the car, get it repaired and move on. The sky isn't falling people! You people sound like Godzilla is coming down your street! Read the information BMW has supplied us so far. It is October...2 months the parts comes in and end of story. "...should I cancel my order?" HELL NO !!!!!!!!!! Ask BOLTJAMES what he might do in this situation. He knows everything ... in his little world.
m3kidd commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:05 pm

Time to dust off my Civic keys....
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I'm not trying to provide solace for you. I'm just commenting on the facts and logistics of a difficult and complicated situation BMW has to deal with.
solace? - hardly....

you don't get it - I care neither about BMW's PR "issue" nor BMW's logistical challenges....

I care about the safety of my family and those around me who I may be placing in harm's way. I hope my weekly drive through the West Virginia mountains does not become "a difficult and complicated situation" - I hope I can stop in time for a crowded Washington DC intersection filled with pedestrians and traffic otherwise I could witness "a difficult and complicated situation".

Point is - BMW thinks the car is sufficiently unsafe that it is stopping all deliveries - and those of us out here in the wild just don't know if we face "a complicated and difficult situation" until it happens....
tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
solace? - hardly....

you don't get it - I care neither about BMW's PR "issue" nor BMW's logistical challenges....

I care about the safety of my family and those around me who I may be placing in harm's way. I hope my weekly drive through the West Virginia mountains does not become "a difficult and complicated situation" - I hope I can stop in time for a crowded Washington DC intersection filled with pedestrians and traffic otherwise I could witness "a difficult and complicated situation".

Point is - BMW thinks the car is sufficiently unsafe that it is stopping all deliveries - and those of us out here in the wild just don't know if we face "a complicated and difficult situation" until it happens....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I could give a damn about BMW's potential PR problems - I care about the safety of my family. At this moment - since BMW cannot tell us definitively if our cars are safe - I must assume my new $50K 328xi Sport-line is unsafe. Indeed, dealers are being told not to sell cars on their lots. The least BMW should do is rebate lease payments on affected cars until a fix is fully implemented. It is unconscionable to ask us to knowingly to compromise the safety of our families - and have no ready plan to boot.
And your proposal is??? That your lease payments should be refunded to you? Does that make your car safer?

Seriously, what do you propose BMW should do? As I mentioned previously it appears at this point the failure rate has been less than 4/10 of one percent. Should BMW inform the owners of all 76,000 affected cars that they need to return their cars to the dealership and a loaner will be provided to them?
mmille24 commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:14 pm

Like a hysterical woman from the 20s...
Greg @ East Bay BMW commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:16 pm

He keeps quoting you like it's directly from BMW NA, not sure why...
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
And your proposal is??? That your lease payments should be refunded to you? Does that make your car safer?

Seriously, what do you propose BMW should do? As I mentioned previously it appears at this point the failure rate has been less than 4/10 of one percent. Should BMW inform the owners of all 76,000 affected cars that they need to return their cars to the dealership and a loaner will be provided to them?
Given BMW's refusal to deliver affected cars to dealerships and moreover BMW's instruction to dealers not to sell affected cars on their lots - acknowledges that the "problem" is not trivial and does portend real risks of potentially dire consequences.

A good start...what's good for the goose is good for the gander - if BMW will not deliver the cars in question - we as clients should not be asked to accept circumstances untenable to BMW. Affected cars should be sidelined. Lease payments should be suspended until the cars in question are remedied. Rental cars for 76000 potential customers? - why not - and if BMW does not have the physical inventory - there's always Enterprise.

BMW is a great brand - BMW needs to seize the high road and display in real terms responsible corporate citizenship.
Michael Schott commented:
September 27, 2013, 10:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
I don't think that's the reason, there is nothing they can do there until it hits VDC. Are you sure your car is not on a boat yet, that's a long time?
Yep. My car, completed September 6 is about to reach the port in Baltimore.
Michael Schott commented:
September 27, 2013, 10:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Yeah...my car - and explain the "few feet before you come to a stop" to the family in the cross walk who darted out in front of you.

Yeah - relax - this is not brain surgery......yet
We understand your fears. Call you dealership and find out if your car has the potential engine problem. Or just cancel the order.
mmille24 commented:
September 27, 2013, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Rental cars for 76000 potential customers? - why not
Ever hear of the expression, "The juice isn't worth the squeeze?"
nightmareuki commented:
September 27, 2013, 10:52 pm

what happens if you crash because of this while BMW is figuring out how to fix it?
gkr778 commented:
September 27, 2013, 10:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmareuki View Post
what happens if you crash because of this while BMW is figuring out how to fix it?
Report the incident to NHTSA as a safety complaint. https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
Capobranco commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
.... Or just cancel the order.
I would if I could...I took delivery of a 328xi about 2 months ago. I bought the car as a daily driver and was motivated primarily by the car's efficiency and safety - as you are well aware there are many less expensive alternatives. Car is my 8TH BMW. I have already have plans for my 9TH and 10TH next year.

In the past I have found BMWNA's responsiveness and loyalty to existing clients to be noteworthy and hopefully they will use this very difficult situation to demonstrate their responsible corporate citizenship.
Cjs2002 commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:09 pm

The choice that BMW must deal with is weighing a significant cost of fixing or side lining all affected vehicles immediately versus the cost of being pulled into EVERY litigation that results from accidents involving the cars between this notice and the resolution. Telling drivers to be careful isn't going to fly when they are pulled into court. That is why the notice seems paraphrased - I think BMW would be much more careful to cover for any potential issues that may occur.
Bimmer3oi commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:11 pm

kinda funny, if this were another brand having these issues, all the BMW apologists would be screaming about poor quality control and risk to their personal safety, and calling for the brand's public execution...but since it's BMW, and this a BMW forum, the attitude seems to be, umm... different
daders commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmareuki View Post
what happens if you crash because of this while BMW is figuring out how to fix it?
Blame it on unintended acceleration syndrome... Just make sure to slap a Prius or Lexus badge on first.

I joke! But seriously put that badge on first...


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tturedraider commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmareuki View Post
what happens if you crash because of this while BMW is figuring out how to fix it?
It's going to be a bad situation all the way around. There's no doubt BMW is well aware and concerned about this possibility. At this point they don't have much choice other than to depend on the very low incident rate thus far.

While this situation is pretty bad it's worth a reminder this isn't a situation of total brake failure, but rather loss of the brake's power boost function.
av98 commented:
September 27, 2013, 11:38 pm

Ouch, was hedging between a 328 vs 335. Guess this makes the decision much easier.


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mmille24 commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Ouch, was hedging between a 328 vs 335. Guess this makes the decision much easier.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

Does it? A temporary issue wouldn't prevent me from making a decision that would affect me 2-3+ years.
328AL commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by poudre View Post
What do you think the reason for the car sitting around for over 30 days after production is?


I am sure. That's what the 800 line says, that's what the sales person says, and that's what the "My BMW" website says.
Your CA says your car held at Bremerhaven due to a recall?

They can't fix your car at the port, there're no repair facilities there. Mine was completed on 9/6 and is on the ship. I contacted my SM, he said if it's impacted it would be fixed at VDC.

There is a logistical problem with your car, contact your dealer and let them figure it out.
Capobranco commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:37 am

acceptable loses????

If a Door Pops off in flight of only one DC 10, all are grounded, until the problem is solved. Granted it's very different for an airline full of passengers going down into a city.

But what are acceptable losses? A Kindergartener running in front of you to get out of the rain, or her Grandmother running after her to catch her? No these are not acceptable losses, and the suspected affected cars
should likewise be grounded, for Russian Roulette is too dangerous, immoral, and unconscionable regardless of the odds.
capt_slow commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
acceptable loses????

If a Door Pops off in flight of only one DC 10, all are grounded, until the problem is solved. Granted it's very different for an airline full of passengers going down into a city.

But what are acceptable losses? A Kindergartener running in front of you to get out of the rain, or her Grandmother running after her to catch her? No these are not acceptable losses, and the suspected affected cars
should likewise be grounded, for Russian Roulette is too dangerous, immoral, and unconscionable regardless of the odds.
It's the unfortunate reality that most safety laws are written in blood. Especially aviation. Just my $0.02.
LarryboysUDM commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:45 am

Here's to hoping nobody gets into an accident.

Time to take advantage of poor BMW quality...cancel order to possibly negotiate a discounted price or if buying/leasing ask for a huge discount especially this weekend (end of month).
av98 commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:46 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmille24 View Post
Does it? A temporary issue wouldn't prevent me from making a decision that would affect me 2-3+ years.
Temporary w/o a fix, unacceptable. This is a safety issue! Out of all the cars I have owned and all the recalls I've seen, only the exploding Firestone tires are as bad as this. Degraded braking is a safety failure that SHOULD NEVER OCCUR. This is an awful issue with repercussions that could be deadly if not resolved.

Don't even say you feel comfortable in a performance car that can't stop exactly when you want it to. That's just dangerous.


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mmille24 commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Temporary w/o a fix, unacceptable. This is a safety issue! Out of all the cars I have owned and all the recalls I've seen, only the exploding Firestone tires are as bad as this. Degraded braking is a safety failure that SHOULD NEVER OCCUR. This is an awful issue with repercussions that could be deadly if not resolved.

Don't even say you feel comfortable in a performance car that can't stop exactly when you want it to. That's just dangerous.


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I would recommend you wait a few days before making a reactionary decision.

You don't even know the extent of the recall nor the amount of people affected but yet you are calling it the second worst in automative history. Deep breaths my friend.
av98 commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:09 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmille24 View Post
I would recommend you wait a few days before making a reactionary decision.

You don't even know the extent of the recall nor the amount of people affected but yet you are calling it the second worst in automative history. Deep breaths my friend.
Not in an F3x yet, so no worries for me.

However, I feel sorry for all the F3x owners affected. Btw, this is probably the 4th worst recall.

1) Ford exploding gas tank from the 70s & 80s recall.
2) Firestone exploding tire recall.
3) Toyota stuck gas pedal recall.
4) BMW N20/N26 decreased brake recall.

Notice all has the potential for accidents then injuries or god forbid deaths.


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mmille24 commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Not in an F3x yet, so no worries for me.

However, I feel sorry for all the F3x owners affected. Btw, this is probably the 4th worst recall.

1) Ford exploding gas tank from the 70s & 80s recall.
2) Firestone exploding tire recall.
3) Toyota stuck gas pedal recall.
4) BMW N20/N26 decreased brake recall.

Notice all has the potential for accidents then injuries or god forbid deaths.


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I'm happy you downgraded it to the 4th worst of all time. Again, you still you don't know the extent of the recall nor the amount of people actually affected.

Hopefully Allah forbids deaths...
glennQNYC commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:22 am

The Problem:
The oil supply from the intake camshaft to the brake vacuum pump can become restricted. If this happens the brake vacuum pump could fail due to lack of lubrication, resulting in a loss of power brake assist.

The Solution:
The solution involves inserting a locking ring onto the camshaft so the oil supply to the brake assist vacuum pump is not impaired.


Interesting the recall caused by an engine problem effects only the F30.
nightmareuki commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
While this situation is pretty bad it's worth a reminder this isn't a situation of total brake failure, but rather loss of the brake's power boost function.
have you ever tried to use the brakes without the boosted working? if you have a hill around you try it, put car in neutral kill the engine pump the brakes few time and see how much force you have to apply
shazi00 commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:54 am

I got mine a week ago. What the hell . I hope the service centers take care of the cars cuz mine doesn't even have a speck on it.

By the way this would mean that I get a loaner correct when they announce the recall and my car is being fixed?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using BimmerApp mobile app
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:57 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Interesting the recall caused by an engine problem affects only the F30.
Try reading a little more carefully.
Tedj101 commented:
September 28, 2013, 3:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
solace? - hardly....

Point is - BMW thinks the car is sufficiently unsafe that it is stopping all deliveries - and those of us out here in the wild just don't know if we face "a complicated and difficult situation" until it happens....
There are legal distinctions that make delivering a new car very different than allowing someone to continue using a car that is in service. If you are worried about the issue, don't use your car. No, I don't know what BMW will do, but you might consider renting a car to tide you over, telling your SA that you are doing that - perhaps in a certified letter - and then applying for reimbursement from BMW. At the very least, that would speed up any repair on your car.

Just a thought or two...
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 3:48 am

BMW has come full circle. First the turbocharged cars wouldn't go, now they won't stop. My 335i came with an unproven fuel pump system which resulted in NHTSA involvement, several recalls, and a warranty extension. Now the vac pump (N20/N26) isn't getting enough oil? No excuses, this is another example of insufficient testing of a redesign. Vacuum pumps have been around a long, long time. BMW found a different way to operate them, they had a responsibility to ensure it would hold up.
BMWNA blamed the N54 fuel pump failures on crappy American fuel. Are they going to blame the pump/brake failure on crappy American oil? Wouldn't surprise me. Wait, some of these failures happened with factory installed oil, right? Yes! We're off the hook!
It is interesting to read the four pages of comments so far. As you who were there in the E9x forum know, the threads and posts having to do with the HPFP failure read exactly the same as this thread. Substitute "HPFP" for "Brake failure" and they are identical with the exception that BMW seems to want to stay ahead of the curve on this one. It's going to be a tough sell. After the first tragic accident, actually caused by brake failure or imaginatively blamed on brake failure, things will get even tougher. The evening news will forget about the steak and only sell the sizzle. Audi, Ford and Toyota can tell you how that goes.
crazygordon commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:25 am

I am suppose to pick up a 428 today at 6 Eastern time. Should I do it or wait?


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boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:42 am

It's only one data point, but two weeks ago I was doing 80 in the fast lane when all of a sudden all traffic came to a complete stop and the car in front of me didn't react in time and I thought for sure I was going to crash right into his rear end. Was without a doubt the worst emergency stop situation I have ever encountered.

The F30 brakes performed like an absolute champ. The guy in front of me made eye contact in the rearview mirror and gave me a huge thumbs up (and a bit of an apology). Now I understand the problem can be intermittent and next time I might not be so lucky, but right now I'm not very concerned. Never had a single issue with the brakes since I've owned the car.

I will, however, be cognizant of the handbrake and would likely lean my hand over there if I encountered that situation again just in case.

BJ
izzyM3 commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:45 am

2006 330i - transmission replaced after two weeks of ownership, 2013 M3 - totaled RIP, 2013 328i - now this... *sigh*. But, for now, I'm gonna enjoy the car (putting new wheels today), and just be attentive and hopefully my natural reactions if failure occurs work.
Pat_X5 commented:
September 28, 2013, 10:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzyM3 View Post
2006 330i - transmission replaced after two weeks of ownership, 2013 M3 - totaled RIP, 2013 328i - now this... *sigh*. But, for now, I'm gonna enjoy the car (putting new wheels today), and just be attentive and hopefully my natural reactions if failure occurs work.
+1

I am not worried, after 3 BMWs and having to go thru major issues in the past, I know they will fix it to my satisfaction.

In retrospect, BMW has been more than accommodating in my safety.

My first BMW had a major safety issue 2002 E53 which is still documented after I reported to NHTSA. The engine would cut out while making a left turn from standstill and stall in the middle of the road or intersection. After many trips to my original dealer (useless Monrovia dealer that is still awful) - BMWNA finally got involved after the 4th time it happened and got the car into their master tech dealer located in Alhambra. They gave me a loaner for a month and finally figured out after sending the entire engine to NJ - that the injection system & ECU were faulting at high temps (Southern California desert weather). Got the E53 back and was a perfect car till I retired it at 130,000 miles!

Then my first E90, I had a major engine failure - fixed that in 3 days and no problems since that time I retired it at 90,000 miles...

Now my current E90 has ZERO problems - my first BMW without a single problem minor or major!

This weekend I am visiting my BMW dealer and looking at my options for another BMW...
I will enjoy the less crowded dealership this weekend...

So let's all not worry the sky will be falling shortly.....
poudre commented:
September 28, 2013, 10:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
Your CA says your car held at Bremerhaven due to a recall?

No, he never said that my car was being held at Bremerhaven due to a recall. He informed me that the car had been produced on Aug. 26.

They can't fix your car at the port, there're no repair facilities there. I understand that.

Mine was completed on 9/6 and is on the ship. I contacted my SM, he said if it's impacted it would be fixed at VDC.

There is a logistical problem with your car, contact your dealer and let them figure it out.
8/26/13 - Production completed

9/21/13 - Transported to port of exit

9/24/13 - Vehicle at the port awaiting a shipping vessel

As you can see, the car was somewhere (other than at the port) for 26 days.


I am not complaining, just wondering if the delay might have been due to the brake issue

or

Perhaps a German longshoreman was using it for his daughter's wedding?
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's only one data point, but two weeks ago I was doing 80 in the fast lane when all of a sudden all traffic came to a complete stop and the car in front of me didn't react in time and I thought for sure I was going to crash right into his rear end. Was without a doubt the worst emergency stop situation I have ever encountered.

The F30 brakes performed like an absolute champ. The guy in front of me made eye contact in the rearview mirror and gave me a huge thumbs up (and a bit of an apology). Now I understand the problem can be intermittent and next time I might not be so lucky, but right now I'm not very concerned. Never had a single issue with the brakes since I've owned the car.

I will, however, be cognizant of the handbrake and would likely lean my hand over there if I encountered that situation again just in case.

BJ
Hey Bolt. Glad you made it out of that one with all the sheet metal straight. There is one heck of a flaw in BMWNA's suggestion about the handbrake. It could result in a very bad scenario if misused.

The handbrake mechanically activates the rear (only!) brakes, it does not do anything with the fronts. So whether your foot is on the brake pedal or not, and whether you are really having a brake boost issue or not, the handbrake is going to apply the rear brakes.

So let's assume for a second that a driver with only a split second to react decides that he is not stopping properly and applies the handbrake. Unfortunately he made a bad call, the road conditions were a little slippery due to rain or snow and what he really perceived was his adrenelin magnified sense of time passing while the ABS system was doing its thing. He yanks up the handbrake which overrides the modulated ABS force to the rear pads. He is going to go sideways. Immediately. Faster than he can react. He is going to entirely lose control of his car.

Maybe most of us on this board know enough to properly stop a handicapped car, the average person doesn't. Asking owners to apply the handbrake to stop the car is weak at best. I have a feeling that that suggestion as a 'fix' will not be on the table too long.

[If early reports remain true, that the fault is only obvious at very low speeds then my scenario is inappropriate. I don't see how this hydraulic failure can only be apparent at low speeds though. It is true that low speeds usually go along with low engine rpm's and that could be the connection. I can think of situations where someone could have low rpm's at high speeds, especially with a standard trans car.]
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2013, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Hey Bolt. Glad you made it out of that one with all the sheet metal straight. There is one heck of a flaw in BMWNA's suggestion about the handbrake. It could result in a very bad scenario if misused.

The handbrake mechanically activates the rear (only!) brakes, it does not do anything with the fronts. So whether your foot is on the brake pedal or not, and whether you are really having a brake boost issue or not, the handbrake is going to apply the rear brakes.

So let's assume for a second that a driver with only a split second to react decides that he is not stopping properly and applies the handbrake. Unfortunately he made a bad call, the road conditions were a little slippery due to rain or snow and what he really perceived was his adrenelin magnified sense of time passing while the ABS system was doing its thing. He yanks up the handbrake which overrides the modulated ABS force to the rear pads. He is going to go sideways. Immediately. Faster than he can react. He is going to entirely lose control of his car.

Maybe most of us on this board know enough to properly stop a handicapped car, the average person doesn't. Asking owners to apply the handbrake to stop the car is weak at best. I have a feeling that that suggestion as a 'fix' will not be on the table too long.

[If early reports remain true, that the fault is only obvious at very low speeds then my scenario is inappropriate. I don't see how this hydraulic failure can only be apparent at low speeds though. It is true that low speeds usually go along with low engine rpm's and that could be the connection. I can think of situations where someone could have low rpm's at high speeds, especially with a standard trans car.]
Good point, definitely don't need the rear wheels locking up.

More importantly: When are you getting delivery of your new 4 Series? Time to put that ol' E92 out to pasture.

BJ
MotoWPK commented:
September 28, 2013, 11:53 am

I see a post yesterday asking for a source of this report, but no reply. Curiously, the only reports I can find of this are on a couple of other forums, one of which links back to bimmerfest.com and the other with the same information beginning this thread but with no source. Also, NHTSA only reports an investigation, no recall, though according to the initiating post BMW notified NHTSA of their recall 9/26/13.

Does anyone have an independent source for this?
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's only one data point, but two weeks ago I was doing 80 in the fast lane when all of a sudden all traffic came to a complete stop and the car in front of me didn't react in time and I thought for sure I was going to crash right into his rear end. Was without a doubt the worst emergency stop situation I have ever encountered.

The F30 brakes performed like an absolute champ. The guy in front of me made eye contact in the rearview mirror and gave me a huge thumbs up (and a bit of an apology). Now I understand the problem can be intermittent and next time I might not be so lucky, but right now I'm not very concerned. Never had a single issue with the brakes since I've owned the car.

I will, however, be cognizant of the handbrake and would likely lean my hand over there if I encountered that situation again just in case.

BJ
BJ

You should try to get in the habit of looking as far in the distance as possible so that the fact that the car in front of you reacts slowly does not impact you. Ideally you should have seen the traffic ahead coming to a stop and not depended on the car in front of you.

I can tell you from experience that "low eyes" is a very hard habit to break.

CA
Bimmer3oi commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:03 pm

I'm not an engineer, so does anyone who is more technically educated believe that just adding the o-ring or whatever, can completely solve this braking issue?...or is this more of a quick/economical/partial fix that will show BMW is at least doing "something" to already built cars...it just seems to me like this is too simple a solution to a problem that may require a little more re-engineering

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beden1 commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BJ

You should try to get in the habit of looking as far in the distance as possible so that the fact that the car in front of you reacts slowly does not impact you. Ideally you should have seen the traffic ahead coming to a stop and not depended on the car in front of you.

I can tell you from experience that "low eyes" is a very hard habit to break.

CA
Looking far ahead and trying to anticipate forward traffic conditions is a part of the basics when driving something like a Suburban or Tahoe. Their brakes take a while to slow down these large mass vehicles. Pay attention and drive defensively.
greywolf328i commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Hey Bolt. Glad you made it out of that one with all the sheet metal straight. There is one heck of a flaw in BMWNA's suggestion about the handbrake. It could result in a very bad scenario if misused.

The handbrake mechanically activates the rear (only!) brakes, it does not do anything with the fronts. So whether your foot is on the brake pedal or not, and whether you are really having a brake boost issue or not, the handbrake is going to apply the rear brakes.

So let's assume for a second that a driver with only a split second to react decides that he is not stopping properly and applies the handbrake. Unfortunately he made a bad call, the road conditions were a little slippery due to rain or snow and what he really perceived was his adrenelin magnified sense of time passing while the ABS system was doing its thing. He yanks up the handbrake which overrides the modulated ABS force to the rear pads. He is going to go sideways. Immediately. Faster than he can react. He is going to entirely lose control of his car.

Maybe most of us on this board know enough to properly stop a handicapped car, the average person doesn't. Asking owners to apply the handbrake to stop the car is weak at best. I have a feeling that that suggestion as a 'fix' will not be on the table too long.

[If early reports remain true, that the fault is only obvious at very low speeds then my scenario is inappropriate. I don't see how this hydraulic failure can only be apparent at low speeds though. It is true that low speeds usually go along with low engine rpm's and that could be the connection. I can think of situations where someone could have low rpm's at high speeds, especially with a standard trans car.]
I believe the stability control will prevent that regardless. Pretty sure you can't drift one of these cars without disabling it. And the person that ranks this up with the Ford and Toyota recalls, check the incident report. You'll find a significant number difference there. Oh and both actually killed people. No one has even reported an injury yet. Take your fear mongering somewhere else. This is not an excuse for BMW but simply why they aren't telling us to stop driving. The likelihood of major accident is low. Your more likely to hit someone using your phone/texting than as a result of power assist loss.

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Jerseyal commented:
September 28, 2013, 12:59 pm

Took my car out for a spirited drive this morning, and i'm happy to report that the brakes work. So I think I'm good for now.
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe the stability control will prevent that regardless. Pretty sure you can't drift one of these cars without disabling it. And the person that ranks this up with the Ford and Toyota recalls, check the incident report. You'll find a significant number difference there. Oh and both actually killed people. No one has even reported an injury yet. Take your fear mongering somewhere else. This is not an excuse for BMW but simply why they aren't telling us to stop driving. The likelihood of major accident is low. Your more likely to hit someone using your phone/texting than as a result of power assist loss.

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You BELIEVE the stability control will prevent it or you know it as a fact?
The fact that nobody has reported an injury yet is going to be of little consolation to the first person that gets injured (if and when it happens).

I am not likely to hit anyone while I am texting because I dont text.

CA
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseyal View Post
Took my car out for a spirited drive this morning, and i'm happy to report that the brakes work. So I think I'm good for now.
Obviously with the number of affected cars on the road, the number of miles they are driven and the number of times the brakes are applied on these cars the problem is only going to show up very rarely. The issue is that it should not show up at all.

CA
gkr778 commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoWPK View Post
I see a post yesterday asking for a source of this report, but no reply. Curiously, the only reports I can find of this are on a couple of other forums, one of which links back to bimmerfest.com and the other with the same information beginning this thread but with no source. Also, NHTSA only reports an investigation, no recall, though according to the initiating post BMW notified NHTSA of their recall 9/26/13.

Does anyone have an independent source for this?
I can't find one either. The initial post in this Bimmerfest thread is a replica of a page on F30driver.com, but with some typos corrected.

Would any Bimmerfest sponsors be able to confirm whether this information is available on Dealerspeed/DCSnet/CenterNet?
minn19 commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:08 pm

From information posted about this issue via the thread in another forum, it appears the problem shows up in very low-mileage cars that are a couple of months old. I could be wrong, but it looks like for most of us that have higher mileage (5000ish+) and "older" F30's, it doesn't appear. Obviously don't let your guard down, but it does appear if it is going to be a problem, it shows up fairly early on.

Edit: Built in Regensburg, 12000 miles/8 months in service and have not had this problem.
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseyal View Post
Took my car out for a spirited drive this morning, and i'm happy to report that the brakes work. So I think I'm good for now.
Obviously with the number of affected cars on the road, the numbers of miles they are driven and the number of times the brakes are applied on these cars the problem is only going to show up very rarely. The issue is that it should not show up at all.

CA
aorbigo commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:34 pm

I just bought my 2013 328i xdrive last night. Does it mean it is safe and exempt from this issue as it was sold to me? Thanks
av98 commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
You BELIEVE the stability control will prevent it or you know it as a fact?
The fact that nobody has reported an injury yet is going to be of little consolation to the first person that gets injured (if and when it happens).

I am not likely to hit anyone while I am texting because I dont text.

CA
+1, brake issues in any modern car is unacceptable.


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namelessman commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Obviously with the number of affected cars on the road, the numbers of miles they are driven and the number of times the brakes are applied on these cars the problem is only going to show up very rarely. The issue is that it should not show up at all.

CA
+1, I am not too worried about this, my brakes have gone through their paces and they still work as expected. Having said that I will start practicing emergency handbrake maneuvers. I am so glad there is a manual handbrake.
boltjaM3s commented:
September 28, 2013, 1:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BJ

You should try to get in the habit of looking as far in the distance as possible so that the fact that the car in front of you reacts slowly does not impact you. Ideally you should have seen the traffic ahead coming to a stop and not depended on the car in front of you.

I can tell you from experience that "low eyes" is a very hard habit to break.

CA
A collision occurred 10 cars in front of me and both cars came to a complete stop, we were bunched up doing 80 during the evening commute home with the sun glare dead ahead.

Wasn't a matter of low eyes, rather the SUV in front of me without 8 car lengths to match the 80 MPH.

BJ
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
A collision occurred 10 cars in front of me and both cars came to a complete stop, we were bunched up doing 80 during the evening commute home with the sun glare dead ahead.

Wasn't a matter of low eyes, rather the SUV in front of me without 8 car lengths to match the 80 MPH.

BJ
Well whatever happened I am glad to hear that you (and the car) escaped unscathed.

CA
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
+1, I am not too worried about this, my brakes have gone through their paces and they still work as expected. Having said that I will start practicing emergency handbrake maneuvers. I am so glad there is a manual handbrake.
Find a very large parking lot and accelerate to 30 mph. Without touching the foot brake try to stop the car with the hand brake (apply it slowly!). You'll eventually come to a stop. How would you compare your stopping distance with a foot brake stop?
That's why it's not called an emergency brake by any manufacturer anymore.
The purpose of the hand brake is to help prevent rollaways when the car is parked. It does that well.
crazygordon commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:09 pm

My dealer told me that there was no recall. I don't know to believe him or he just wants to sell a car.


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namelessman commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Find a very large parking lot and accelerate to 30 mph. Without touching the foot brake try to stop the car with the hand brake (apply it slowly!). You'll eventually come to a stop. How would you compare your stopping distance with a foot brake stop?
That's why it's not called an emergency brake by any manufacturer anymore.
The purpose of the hand brake is to help prevent rollaways when the car is parked. It does that well.
I was referring to manual instead of electronic handbrake, at least I know where to reach for the big lever versus the tiny latch!
greywolf328i commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
You BELIEVE the stability control will prevent it or you know it as a fact?
The fact that nobody has reported an injury yet is going to be of little consolation to the first person that gets injured (if and when it happens).

I am not likely to hit anyone while I am texting because I dont text.

CA
Since stability control was mandated after the Explorer issues and what the tech actually does, I can be reasonably confident it will prevent loss of control. It's job is to prevent people from doing stupid things after all

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DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe the stability control will prevent that regardless. Pretty sure you can't drift one of these cars without disabling it. And the person that ranks this up with the Ford and Toyota recalls, check the incident report. You'll find a significant number difference there. Oh and both actually killed people. No one has even reported an injury yet. Take your fear mongering somewhere else. This is not an excuse for BMW but simply why they aren't telling us to stop driving. The likelihood of major accident is low. Your more likely to hit someone using your phone/texting than as a result of power assist loss.

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Tell you what, I won't say you have the blind faith of a recent convert, if you don't call me a fear mongerer. OK?
BMW has an unfortunate history of denial and stonewalling when it comes to manufacturing defects. The list is long and anyone who has been around a while can tell you it goes way back. In this case they seem to be jumping at the chance to 'fix' something even up to the point of stopping sales and deliveries. That is a serious move on their part and it probably denotes their interpretation of this defect as being a very serious matter. I think one shoe has dropped, there's going to be another.
It sounds as if had you been the man in charge at BMW you'd still be delivering the cars.
MonkeyDigsBMW commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:18 pm

Not sure of the source but site sponsor Greg from Pacific BMW confirmed it and has to my understanding received communication from BMW on the issue. He has a post in this thread that you can read.


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328AL commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by poudre View Post
8/26/13 - Production completed

9/21/13 - Transported to port of exit

9/24/13 - Vehicle at the port awaiting a shipping vessel

As you can see, the car was somewhere (other than at the port) for 26 days.


I am not complaining, just wondering if the delay might have been due to the brake issue

or

Perhaps a German longshoreman was using it for his daughter's wedding?
Your CA should know or should find out what exactly happened. I have not heard from anyone else that it took more than one week to get a car from factory to the port. In my case it was 2 days.

I appreciate your patience, but I would be upset and want to know what happened. Maybe your car got damaged while transported and spent 3 weeks in a repair facility? I have not seen anyone else reporting this kind of delay at the same time frame your car was made. There are plenty of people who had their cars produced late in August and already driving their cars, while you're waiting. Delay is one thing, but it could be worse.
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe the stability control will prevent that regardless. Pretty sure you can't drift one of these cars without disabling it. And the person that ranks this up with the Ford and Toyota recalls, check the incident report. You'll find a significant number difference there. Oh and both actually killed people. No one has even reported an injury yet. Take your fear mongering somewhere else. This is not an excuse for BMW but simply why they aren't telling us to stop driving. The likelihood of major accident is low. Your more likely to hit someone using your phone/texting than as a result of power assist loss.

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Sorry, you believe incorrectly. The hand brake is a purely mechanical system that completely removes electronic nannies from the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoWPK View Post
I see a post yesterday asking for a source of this report, but no reply. Curiously, the only reports I can find of this are on a couple of other forums, one of which links back to bimmerfest.com and the other with the same information beginning this thread but with no source. Also, NHTSA only reports an investigation, no recall, though according to the initiating post BMW notified NHTSA of their recall 9/26/13.

Does anyone have an independent source for this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
I can't find one either. The initial post in this Bimmerfest thread is a replica of a page on F30driver.com, but with some typos corrected.

Would any Bimmerfest sponsors be able to confirm whether this information is available on Dealerspeed/DCSnet/CenterNet?
The thread was posted by the Bimmerfest administration, who are in very close communication with BMWNA corporate leadership. It is also confirmed by a sponsor CA here in this very thread.
greywolf328i commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Tell you what, I won't say you have the blind faith of a recent convert, if you don't call me a fear mongerer. OK?
BMW has an unfortunate history of denial and stonewalling when it comes to manufacturing defects. The list is long and anyone who has been around a while can tell you it goes way back. In this case they seem to be jumping at the chance to 'fix' something even up to the point of stopping sales and deliveries. That is a serious move on their part and it probably denotes their interpretation of this defect as being a very serious matter. I think one shoe has dropped, there's going to be another.
It sounds as if had you been the man in charge at BMW you'd still be delivering the cars.
Agreed. I probably would knowing the math would work out in favor un terms of lawsuits. So BMW has taken the middle ground here between you and I. I wonder if it has something to do with legal why they won't sell a car with a serious defect vs people who bought a car when there was no known issue. I bet that is where the truth lies in their decision.

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Crom! commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:44 pm

I called my dealer and he said that since my car was built in September of this year that the recall does not affect my car as it has the "new" system installed....Well, I will find out in mid October when it gets delivered.
328AL commented:
September 28, 2013, 2:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom! View Post
I called my dealer and he said that since my car was built in September of this year that the recall does not affect my car as it has the "new" system installed....Well, I will find out in mid October when it gets delivered.
I hope so too, my car was built in 1st week of September.
Michael Schott commented:
September 28, 2013, 3:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
BMW has come full circle. First the turbocharged cars wouldn't go, now they won't stop. My 335i came with an unproven fuel pump system which resulted in NHTSA involvement, several recalls, and a warranty extension. Now the vac pump (N20/N26) isn't getting enough oil? No excuses, this is another example of insufficient testing of a redesign. Vacuum pumps have been around a long, long time. BMW found a different way to operate them, they had a responsibility to ensure it would hold up.
BMWNA blamed the N54 fuel pump failures on crappy American fuel. Are they going to blame the pump/brake failure on crappy American oil? Wouldn't surprise me. Wait, some of these failures happened with factory installed oil, right? Yes! We're off the hook!
It is interesting to read the four pages of comments so far. As you who were there in the E9x forum know, the threads and posts having to do with the HPFP failure read exactly the same as this thread. Substitute "HPFP" for "Brake failure" and they are identical with the exception that BMW seems to want to stay ahead of the curve on this one. It's going to be a tough sell. After the first tragic accident, actually caused by brake failure or imaginatively blamed on brake failure, things will get even tougher. The evening news will forget about the steak and only sell the sizzle. Audi, Ford and Toyota can tell you how that goes.
First of all you can't possibly test for every possible scenario in vehicles that sell in the hundred's of 1000's. Recalls happen all the time to almost every car company and are usually a preventative measure made with extreme caution.

Stop being so dramatic. These cars stop.
captainaudio commented:
September 28, 2013, 3:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
First of all you can't possibly test for every possible scenario in vehicles that sell in the hundred's of 1000's. Recalls happen all the time to almost every car company and are usually a preventative measure made with extreme caution.

Stop being so dramatic. These cars stop.
Until one doesn't. And nobody wants to be the statistic that shows that there really was a problem.





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DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 3:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
[snip]
This is not an excuse for BMW but simply why they aren't telling us to stop driving. The likelihood of major accident is low. You're more likely to hit someone using your phone/texting than as a result of power assist loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
[snip]
It sounds as if had you been the man in charge at BMW you'd still be delivering the cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
Agreed. I probably would knowing the math would work out in favor in terms of lawsuits. [snip]
We'll see how this plays out. Keep delivering and if there are no significant field failures you're fast tracked to senior management. You're a hero.
If one single car fails to stop in time at the school crosswalk, and the driver blames it on suddenly poor braking, you're put in charge of the mail room. You're a zero.
Hero or zero? Time will tell.
bmw142 commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I have no doubt BMW is working on this as fast as humanly possible, but it is going to be at least somewhat of a PR nightmare. I imagine this will be a national news headline maker - BMW suspends sales as thousands and thousands of the latest edition of BMW's most popular models recalled for possible brake failure. Oy vey!!
Really, this issue has been going on since February and all they have done is drag their feet on the matter and deny they have a defect. I have been through a camshaft, check valve and vacuum pump. The car is back in the shop for the past month where they have replaced the vacuum pump again with a new design and are going to replace the brake lines. Oh by the way, they have no brake lines, so my car sits. BMW knew about this issue and still today do not have a definitive fix.

Don't bother calling customer service because they will not help you, I have been around and around with them since February and they are still searching.

This is not BMW from a few years ago, when they cared about it's customers.
bmw142 commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
At least BMW is stepping up to the plate early for this issue which shows they care about customer safety. They could have played the wait and see game like others have done.
They have played the wait and see game, this have been going on since it was brought to their attention by a few of us in February.
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
First of all you can't possibly test for every possible scenario in vehicles that sell in the hundred's of 1000's. Recalls happen all the time to almost every car company and are usually a preventative measure made with extreme caution.

Stop being so dramatic. These cars stop.
They'll stop on a dime and give you back a nickel. One of the most significant features which influenced my buy decision was my E92's incredible stopping ability. I have said this before, I'd drop down to less HP before I gave up the brakes. They've earned their reputation.
Now comes a question in regard to brake reliability. The worst thing is that vacuum assist brakes have been around for over 50 years. And vacuum pumps to create vacuum have been used in cars for almost as long. BMW has taken a relatively simple system, a mission critical system, and managed to screw it up so badly that they must stop shipping and hold off on delivering? The drama is with BMW.
There is no excuse for something like this ever becoming an issue. Someone at BMW dropped the ball and failed to properly vet their new pump arrangement.
bmw142 commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
From all the situations we've seen reported on here, the loss of power occurs at low speed and the car rolls a couple feet more than someone would expect. Chance of fender benders yes, chance for injury, not likely.

The description also shows your losing breaking power assist. I've been in a car when this happened before, it is not the end of the world. You just have to brake like a car would from the 50s - jam the pedal to the floor. Also as mentioned, the e-brake still works. I'm not saying there's no reason for concern, but I will still be driving mine until they tell me it's not safe and offer me a replacement.

Actually the brake pedal becomes rock hard and you are not able to push any harder on the pedal. The only solution I found was a rapid pump of the brakes and the car finally would stop rolling. This system is not like a system in cars from the 50's before power assist. There is no jamming the pedal to the floor when the brakes fail. Nothing happens
bmw142 commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer3oi View Post
I'm not an engineer, so does anyone who is more technically educated believe that just adding the o-ring or whatever, can completely solve this braking issue?...or is this more of a quick/economical/partial fix that will show BMW is at least doing "something" to already built cars...it just seems to me like this is too simple a solution to a problem that may require a little more re-engineering

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Just to be clear. On my car they replaced the vacuum pump once and a check valve. The problem was still there. They then replaced the camshaft and said that would solve the problem. Two weeks later same issue they then replaced the vacuum pump with a new design. The car still sits in the shop over a month as now they are going to replace the brake lines.
Michael Schott commented:
September 28, 2013, 4:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Until one doesn't. And nobody wants to be the statistic that shows that there really was a problem.





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That can happen in any scenario. Just wrap your car in airbags if you are going to be so paranoid.
328AL commented:
September 28, 2013, 5:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
That can happen in any scenario. Just wrap your car in airbags if you are going to be so paranoid.
I think his concerns are valid, braking is a serious issue. BMW knew about it for a long time and stopped selling cars with this issue.

There are people that agree with you and do not perceive this as a serious issue, that's fine. However, others should be allowed to use BMW loaners (fixed ones) until their cars are fixed, that would be the right thing to do for BMW.
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 6:11 pm

A little technical information in regard to brake boosters. At one time the driver did not receive any help from the car when stopping. His leg force was transmitted by mechanical means early on, and by hydraulic means more recently. Hydraulic systems provided an easy way to magnify the amount of pressure being exerted by the driver. If the master cylinder had a 2 sq. in. bore and the wheel cylinder had a 10 sq. in. bore then the driver's 20 pounds of push became 100 at each wheel (5:1). With faster speeds, and heavier cars a way was needed to apply even greater force. Either that or use brake drums (and/or rotors) two feet in diameter. Some genius came up wtih the idea of using naturally created vacuum to assist in applying brake pressure.

The intake manifold of a naturally aspirated engine contains negative pressure (vacuum). This results from the pistons being able to suck the air out faster than the intake can supply it. If this vacuum is routed to one side of a large rubber diapragm on which the other side is vented to atmosphere then the diaphragm will move with great force to the negative pressure side, it is 'pushed' by air pressure on the atmosphere side. If you meter the vacuum with your foot on the brake pedal then that diaphragm moves, adding to whatever pressure you are applying with your leg. Works great but not on turbocharged cars.

Turbocharged cars get their power advantage by virtue of the turbo(s) pumping air into the intake, far more air than the pistons can breathe in. This creates positive pressure (no vacuum) and therefore cannot be used as a means of multiplying brake force. There's a work around for this situation; add a vacuum pump somewhere else.

Apparently BMW chose to drive this vacuum pump by placing it at the end of the camshaft which would supply rotational power to the pump. Slick. No belts, no pulleys, no electric motors. And all it takes is to add a hole in the end of the valve cover for the shaft to pass through. But something went wrong in the details. It sounds -and I'm guessing- like cam end play is raising havoc with the pump seals and/or bearings, reducing or eliminating vacuum supply. When the vacuum is reduced there is less available to multiply the brake force being exerted by the driver. By adding a clip of some sort that would minimize cam movement and 'fix' the problem. That's conjecture on my part of course.

(For the technojunkies: How much force can vacuum supply to asssist the driver? Let's take a 10" diameter diaphragm working at sea level on a 70F day. The diaphragm has about 78 square inches of surface area, atmospheric pressure is around 14.7 lbs per square inch. Take the air pressure away from one side using a vacuum pump and 14.7 lbs of pressure will be exerted on the atmosphere side. Since this pressure is on every square inch the force is additive, so a total of about 1,156 lbs of additional force can be added to whatever the driver is applying. Being on the upstream side of the master cylinder, this force will be further multiplied by the hydraulic system before it gets to the brake pads. Most people have no idea just how much force it takes to stop a car.)
namelessman commented:
September 28, 2013, 6:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
A little technical information in regard to brake boosters. At one time the driver did not receive any help from the car when stopping. His leg force was transmitted by mechanical means early on, and by hydraulic means more recently. Hydraulic systems provided an easy way to magnify the amount of pressure being exerted by the driver. If the master cylinder had a 2 sq. in. bore and the wheel cylinder had a 10 sq. in. bore then the driver's 20 pounds of push became 100 at each wheel (5:1). With faster speeds, and heavier cars a way was needed to apply even greater force. Either that or use brake drums (and/or rotors) two feet in diameter. Some genius came up wtih the idea of using naturally created vacuum to assist in applying brake pressure.

The intake manifold of a naturally aspirated engine contains negative pressure (vacuum). This results from the pistons being able to suck the air out faster than the intake can supply it. If this vacuum is routed to one side of a large rubber diapragm on which the other side is vented to atmosphere then the diaphragm will move with great force to the negative pressure side, it is 'pushed' by air pressure on the atmosphere side. If you meter the vacuum with your foot on the brake pedal then that diaphragm moves, adding to whatever pressure you are applying with your leg. Works great but not on turbocharged cars.

Turbocharged cars get their power advantage by virtue of the turbo pumping air into the intake, far more air than the pistons can breathe in. This creates positive pressure (no vacuum) and therefore cannot be used as a means of multiplying brake force. There's a work around for this situation; add a vacuum pump somewhere else.

Apparently BMW chose to drive this vacuum pump by placing it at the end of the camshaft which would supply rotational power to the pump. Slick. No belts, no pulleys, no electric motors. And all it takes is to add a hole in the end of the valve cover for the shaft to pass through. But something went wrong in the details. It sounds -and I'm guessing- like cam end play is raising havoc with the pump seals and/or bearings, reducing or eliminating vacuum supply. When the vacuum is reduced there is less available to multiply the brake force being exerted by the driver. By adding a clip of some sort that would minimize cam movement and 'fix' the problem. That's conjecture on my part of course.
If your description is correct, does it mean without turbo boost this problem is less likely to occur, since the vacuum pump is not activated? Just wondering.
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 6:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
If your description is correct, does it mean without turbo boost this problem is less likely to occur, since the vacuum pump is not activated? Just wondering.
Without turbo boost there is no need for a vacuum pump. The vacuum is created by the intake manifold and then ported to the brake booster attached to the master cylinder. So, in effect the engine is the vacuum pump and that's why shutting off the engine will eliminate brake boost and cause a much longer stopping distance. Unless you can apply 1100 pounds of force with your leg without ripping the seat out of the floor...
namelessman commented:
September 28, 2013, 6:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Without turbo boost there is no need for a vacuum pump. The vacuum is created by the intake manifold and then ported to the brake booster attached to the master cylinder. So, in effect the engine is the vacuum pump and that's why shutting off the engine will eliminate brake boost and cause a much longer stopping distance. Unless you can apply 1100 pounds of force with your leg without ripping the seat out of the floor...
Got it. Thanks.
minn19 commented:
September 28, 2013, 6:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
A little technical information in regard to brake boosters. At one time the driver did not receive any help from the car when stopping. His leg force was transmitted by mechanical means early on, and by hydraulic means more recently. Hydraulic systems provided an easy way to magnify the amount of pressure being exerted by the driver. If the master cylinder had a 2 sq. in. bore and the wheel cylinder had a 10 sq. in. bore then the driver's 20 pounds of push became 100 at each wheel (5:1). With faster speeds, and heavier cars a way was needed to apply even greater force. Either that or use brake drums (and/or rotors) two feet in diameter. Some genius came up wtih the idea of using naturally created vacuum to assist in applying brake pressure.

The intake manifold of a naturally aspirated engine contains negative pressure (vacuum). This results from the pistons being able to suck the air out faster than the intake can supply it. If this vacuum is routed to one side of a large rubber diapragm on which the other side is vented to atmosphere then the diaphragm will move with great force to the negative pressure side, it is 'pushed' by air pressure on the atmosphere side. If you meter the vacuum with your foot on the brake pedal then that diaphragm moves, adding to whatever pressure you are applying with your leg. Works great but not on turbocharged cars.

Turbocharged cars get their power advantage by virtue of the turbo(s) pumping air into the intake, far more air than the pistons can breathe in. This creates positive pressure (no vacuum) and therefore cannot be used as a means of multiplying brake force. There's a work around for this situation; add a vacuum pump somewhere else.

Apparently BMW chose to drive this vacuum pump by placing it at the end of the camshaft which would supply rotational power to the pump. Slick. No belts, no pulleys, no electric motors. And all it takes is to add a hole in the end of the valve cover for the shaft to pass through. But something went wrong in the details. It sounds -and I'm guessing- like cam end play is raising havoc with the pump seals and/or bearings, reducing or eliminating vacuum supply. When the vacuum is reduced there is less available to multiply the brake force being exerted by the driver. By adding a clip of some sort that would minimize cam movement and 'fix' the problem. That's conjecture on my part of course.

(For the technojunkies: How much force can vacuum supply to asssist the driver? Let's take a 10" diameter diaphragm working at sea level on a 70F day. The diaphragm has about 78 square inches of surface area, atmospheric pressure is around 14.7 lbs per square inch. Take the air pressure away from one side using a vacuum pump and 14.7 lbs of pressure will be exerted on the atmosphere side. Since this pressure is on every square inch the force is additive, so a total of about 1,156 lbs of additional force can be added to whatever the driver is applying. Being on the upstream side of the master cylinder, this force will be further multiplied by the hydraulic system before it gets to the brake pads. Most people have no idea just how much force it takes to stop a car.)
I admit I did not read your whole post. Any idea why the reported issues are only happening at slow speeds? Shouldn't the problem happen no matter the speed if the vacuum system is malfunctioning? If the answer is in there and I didn't see it, I apologize.
gkr778 commented:
September 28, 2013, 7:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The thread was posted by the Bimmerfest administration, who are in very close communication with BMWNA corporate leadership. It is also confirmed by a sponsor CA here in this very thread.
Thanks, tturedraider. I see that Autoblog just credited Bimmerfest for its own posting on this topic.

Of course, I trust Bimmerfest and commend the administrator for posting this information. I'm just accustomed to seeing safety recall notices like this one first appear in other media, including the NHTSA webpage. Hence my inquiry.
-=Hot|Ice=- commented:
September 28, 2013, 7:12 pm

BMW's brakes are outstanding. Now, you can hate on the fact that BMW maybe didn't design the new system wisely enough but every BMW that I've driven, they stop immediately and without fuss. Heck, the e9x gen lead its respective class in stopping distance! The M3 stopped shorter with floating single piston brakes then a C63 AMG did with 6 piston front and 4 piston rear brakes!
Bill-SD commented:
September 28, 2013, 7:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328AL View Post
I hope so too, my car was built in 1st week of September.
Mine is mid Sept, so we'll see...
MotoWPK commented:
September 28, 2013, 7:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I admit I did not read your whole post. Any idea why the reported issues are only happening at slow speeds? Shouldn't the problem happen no matter the speed if the vacuum system is malfunctioning? If the answer is in there and I didn't see it, I apologize.
Yes, that is a question that needs answering. If it was a failure of brake boost vacuum due to a pump failure, then you'd lose brake power boost regardless of speed.

Also, the posts from at least some of those who have experienced this problem indicated the vacuum pump failed due to a lack of lubrication. If that's the case, then it would appear possible that every vacuum pump in every N20/N26 powered vehicle manufactured prior to the 'fix' being implemented is suspect since every one of those pumps could have suffered damage from insufficient lubrication. The pump may not have failed yet, but it's life could have been shortened with failure occurring in the future. Unless, of course, there is some way of confirming by inspection that individual vehicles did not suffer from insufficient pump lubrication.

It will be interesting to see what the recall details, once published, say about the vacuum pump - inspect, replace, or...?
lezam commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:00 pm

This isn't only on the 4 cylinder engines.. it happened on the AH3 as well...
tturedraider commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezam View Post
This isn't only on the 4 cylinder engines.. it happened on the AH3 as well...
The AH3 uses the N55 motor, so if something like this has happened on that car it would almost certainly be for a different reason.
DSXMachina commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I admit I did not read your whole post. Any idea why the reported issues are only happening at slow speeds? Shouldn't the problem happen no matter the speed if the vacuum system is malfunctioning? If the answer is in there and I didn't see it, I apologize.
The following is pure conjecture. I have no more inormation to work with than anyone else. Creating a vacuum is done by pumping out the air. That's work. As vacuum is used up, or air leaks in, or the pumping mechanism is somehow diminished the pump has to work harder. At higher speeds there is more rotational energy available to overcome the problem. At lower rpm's the pump doesn't turn as fast so can't create vacuum as fast or as deep. This results in less vacuum available to the brake booster. That's all my guess based on what little I've read.
namelessman commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
BMW's brakes are outstanding. Now, you can hate on the fact that BMW maybe didn't design the new system wisely enough but every BMW that I've driven, they stop immediately and without fuss. Heck, the e9x gen lead its respective class in stopping distance! The M3 stopped shorter with floating single piston brakes then a C63 AMG did with 6 piston front and 4 piston rear brakes!
Unfortunately past glories cannot help us to stop the F30 now without boost.

BTW, I was at the local dealership this afternoon and the SAs said they haven't received any info on this yet.
lezam commented:
September 28, 2013, 8:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The AH3 uses the N55 motor, so if something like this has happened on that car it would almost certainly be for a different reason.
I agree. Its scary to be having the same exact issues. I don't think they know the real problem...
capt_slow commented:
September 29, 2013, 9:27 am

The recall is starting to hit news outlets, so far I only found 3 articles.
sunny5280 commented:
September 29, 2013, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Given BMW's refusal to deliver affected cars to dealerships and moreover BMW's instruction to dealers not to sell affected cars on their lots - acknowledges that the "problem" is not trivial and does portend real risks of potentially dire consequences.

A good start...what's good for the goose is good for the gander - if BMW will not deliver the cars in question - we as clients should not be asked to accept circumstances untenable to BMW. Affected cars should be sidelined. Lease payments should be suspended until the cars in question are remedied. Rental cars for 76000 potential customers? - why not - and if BMW does not have the physical inventory - there's always Enterprise.

BMW is a great brand - BMW needs to seize the high road and display in real terms responsible corporate citizenship.
You're obviously unhappy about the way BMW is handling this so my recommendation is to sell your car and buy something from a manufacturer who will address issues like this in a manner that is acceptable to you.
Cjs2002 commented:
September 29, 2013, 11:27 am

It seems like a questionable decision to use a mechanical pump to power the brakes when combined with the Automatic Start/Stop. Every time the engine stops - often in bumper to bumper, busy 4-way stops, or slow moving parking lot traffic - the vacuum pump stops spinning and loses its flow of lubrication.

Personally, I have felt like the brakes perform below my expectations and have commented on it previous to this recall revelation. IMO BMW finds itself in a tough position setting and communicating a repair plan with limited resources. I would assume the actual priority is: 1) sold vehicles that have reported issues, 2) new vehicles passing through, 3) sold vehicles with customer concerns (me), 4) entire vehicle population with no complaint. The notice doesn't really tell their customer base that if you have a great deal of concern about the safety of your car, call and schedule an appointment but that is the track I am following. I will report on my outcome.

At this point in time, I think they are acting appropriately to what has been documented at the NHTSA. If the issue far exceeds those reported like some poster assume, then I will reconsider my evaulation.
elistan commented:
September 29, 2013, 12:34 pm

In case anybody is curious where the vacuum pump is located...

(BTW, I thought the exhaust flat was controlled electronically via servo?)

Capobranco commented:
September 29, 2013, 12:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
Actually the brake pedal becomes rock hard and you are not able to push any harder on the pedal. The only solution I found was a rapid pump of the brakes and the car finally would stop rolling. This system is not like a system in cars from the 50's before power assist. There is no jamming the pedal to the floor when the brakes fail. Nothing happens
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
Just to be clear. On my car they replaced the vacuum pump once and a check valve. The problem was still there. They then replaced the camshaft and said that would solve the problem. Two weeks later same issue they then replaced the vacuum pump with a new design. The car still sits in the shop over a month as now they are going to replace the brake lines.
chilling
Bret_T commented:
September 29, 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Point is - BMW thinks the car is sufficiently unsafe that it is stopping all deliveries
Just because BMW is stopping all deliveries, that does equal BMW believing the car is unsafe. Perhaps their general policy is to not sell any new car that will need to have some sort of repair work performed on it (mechanical or cosmetic). It just doesn't seem to me like selling a car to someone and telling them to bring it back in a few days to have it repaired is a good idea from a customer service standpoint.

Now if it is determined that this is a genuine safety issue which could result in injuries, I think BMW does have the responsibility to provide rentals to everyone until their cars are repaired. I sure am glad that I ordered a 435i and am crossing my fingers that we don't see a similar situation for it down the line.
raleedy commented:
September 29, 2013, 2:48 pm

Personally I'm happy they are not allowing more potentially defective cars out on the road. I think, though, that more can and should be done for owners of cars in this affected class: testing and inspection, at a minimum.
mynycbimmer commented:
September 29, 2013, 5:55 pm

Personally I wouldn't touch the 328 with a barge poll after this. Some of the experiences posted on this thread are downright frightening. Beyond all else I want 100% confidence in something as fundamental as being able to stop the car. Statistically the chance of failure appears low but that said, if sales are being halted, the risks are probably higher than we know. It reeks of the HPFP issue from the last generation which took forever before BMW finally found a solution.
mr_clueless commented:
September 29, 2013, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
Personally I wouldn't touch the 328 with a barge poll after this. Some of the experiences posted on this thread are downright frightening. Beyond all else I want 100% confidence in something as fundamental as being able to stop the car. Statistically the chance of failure appears low but that said, if sales are being halted, the risks are probably higher than we know. It reeks of the HPFP issue from the last generation which took forever before BMW finally found a solution.
You wouldn't even get a 9/2013 build? It sounds like new builds have addressed the issue.
mynycbimmer commented:
September 29, 2013, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
You wouldn't even get a 9/2013 build? It sounds like new builds have addressed the issue.
I'm really paranoid about safety. The HPFP issue was the reason my E92 is a 328 instead of a 335. I read about cars going limp on the highway and it just put me off. Probably my over reaction but just the way I am.
raleedy commented:
September 29, 2013, 6:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
I'm really paranoid about safety. The HPFP issue was the reason my E92 is a 328 instead of a 335. I read about cars going limp on the highway and it just put me off. Probably my over reaction but just the way I am.
It's not an over-reaction to be concerned about safety and about difficulty stopping the car. Current owners need,at a minimum, more information if they are going to feel at all confident.

Here's a collection of complaints going back several months (including at least one totalled car):

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843186
mr_clueless commented:
September 30, 2013, 2:07 am

How do I find out the build date of my car? I have the VIN. I think it was built starting the first week in September, in which case maybe my car won't be held up.

Unless, of course, the reason that September builds are not listed in the recall is because they haven't been delivered yet!
328AL commented:
September 30, 2013, 3:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
It's not an over-reaction to be concerned about safety and about difficulty stopping the car. Current owners need,at a minimum, more information if they are going to feel at all confident.

Here's a collection of complaints going back several months (including at least one totalled car):

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843186
For anyone who said it is not a big deal and a car easily can be stopped, they need to read this, because it is a big deal!


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
windsor027 commented:
September 30, 2013, 8:39 am

ok as far as everyone knows this issue has not affected the 335's right? I have not had any issue with my brakes but I like to be in the know if any 335 F30 owners have had a similar issue.
jwalz1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 10:50 am

I have an August build ED car ready to hit port in two days. I wonder how long they will hold the car to make the repair? (that is if the potential government shutdown does not keep it from port because of no customs service) Snow will be here in about a month and I need the car for winter driving as my summer toy just won't cut it anymore. I put it through about 1000 miles on ED and never experienced what I would call a failure or a hard pedal. I did experience what I thought was pretty weak brakes a couple times at very low speed coming to a stop. Thought it was just me but at pedal pressure that would have brought any normal car to a stop, at about 5 mph and dropping I would suddenly have to push much harder to continue the slowing. Thought it just needed more breaking in but who knows I guess. It was in busy cities, and creeping around. Just slowing casually to a stop, approaching a crosswalk and suddenly feeling like I was going to go long and bump somebody in the crosswalk with the car. It stopped every time, (it happened two or three times) but each time I felt like I had to really stand on them when I should not have had to. I don't remember that the pedal felt hard, just that I suddenly had to stand on them. Maybe it is my imagination, but the car worked as it was supposed to everywhere else.

As far as this recall applying to other vehicles, if BMW uses this design on the N20 and it is supposed to be patterned after the six, would not thousands of other BMW cars potentially have the same problem? Maybe the four just does not create enough vacuum at slow speed, and in larger engines it is ok????????? Dunno.

I don't think I understand how a clogged oil passage stops the vacuum, a ring on the cam will solve it and everything will be fine. I would have to see a schematic to understand what is going on.
EDF30 commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezam View Post
This isn't only on the 4 cylinder engines.. it happened on the AH3 as well...
do you have links for this happening on AH3s?
raleedy commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
I have an August build ED car ready to hit port in two days. I wonder how long they will hold the car to make the repair? (that is if the potential government shutdown does not keep it from port because of no customs service) Snow will be here in about a month and I need the car for winter driving as my summer toy just won't cut it anymore. I put it through about 1000 miles on ED and never experienced what I would call a failure or a hard pedal. I did experience what I thought was pretty weak brakes a couple times at very low speed coming to a stop. Thought it was just me but at pedal pressure that would have brought any normal car to a stop, at about 5 mph and dropping I would suddenly have to push much harder to continue the slowing. Thought it just needed more breaking in but who knows I guess. It was in busy cities, and creeping around. Just slowing casually to a stop, approaching a crosswalk and suddenly feeling like I was going to go long and bump somebody in the crosswalk with the car. It stopped every time, (it happened two or three times) but each time I felt like I had to really stand on them when I should not have had to. I don't remember that the pedal felt hard, just that I suddenly had to stand on them. Maybe it is my imagination, but the car worked as it was supposed to everywhere else.

I don't think I understand how a clogged oil passage stops the vacuum, a ring on the cam will solve it and everything will be fine. I would have to see a schematic to understand what is going on.
The way I understand it, the vacuum is supplied not by the engine intake system, but by a mechanically driven pump. It is done this way because a turbocharged engine has positive, rather than negative, intake manifold pressure -- no vacuum. On the N20 (and other engines as well, I believe) the vacuum pump is driven by the intake camshaft. Scroll up for a very informative diagram. The problem is that, on some unspecified number of cars, because of a manufacturing defect, lubrication of the vacuum pump is restricted. Lack of lubrication causes the pump to fail. The lock ring is intended to prevent the restriction of lubricant flow -- exactly how it does that has not, as far as I have seen, been explained in detail.

The episodes you reported sound to me like exactly what would happen as the pump fails; luckily for you, just mild symptoms so far. I'm guessing that "failure"in this context means lower negative pressure (vacuum), especially at low engine speeds, getting progressively worse until there is no assist at all. If that were my car, I wouldn't drive it until I was sure it was fixed.
lezam commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDF30 View Post
do you have links for this happening on AH3s?
Well it happened to me personally...has it happened to you?
mr_clueless commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
I did experience what I thought was pretty weak brakes a couple times at very low speed coming to a stop. Thought it was just me but at pedal pressure that would have brought any normal car to a stop, at about 5 mph and dropping I would suddenly have to push much harder to continue the slowing. Thought it just needed more breaking in but who knows I guess. It was in busy cities, and creeping around. Just slowing casually to a stop, approaching a crosswalk and suddenly feeling like I was going to go long and bump somebody in the crosswalk with the car. It stopped every time, (it happened two or three times) but each time I felt like I had to really stand on them when I should not have had to. I don't remember that the pedal felt hard, just that I suddenly had to stand on them. Maybe it is my imagination, but the car worked as it was supposed to everywhere else.
It's funny but I had this same experience on a test drive with the 320i. It made me scared enough that I decided against the 320i and decided to go with the 328i.
EDF30 commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezam View Post
Well it happened to me personally...has it happened to you?
nope, did you go to BMW service? What did they say or do?
jwalz1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:34 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
The way I understand it, the vacuum is supplied not by the engine intake system, but by a mechanically driven pump. It is done this way because a turbocharged engine has positive, rather than negative, intake manifold pressure -- no vacuum. On the N20 (and other engines as well, I believe) the vacuum pump is driven by the intake camshaft. Scroll up for a very informative diagram. The problem is that, on some unspecified number of cars, because of a manufacturing defect, lubrication of the vacuum pump is restricted. Lack of lubrication causes the pump to fail. The lock ring is intended to prevent the restriction of lubricant flow -- exactly how it does that has not, as far as I have seen, been explained in detail.

The episodes you reported sound to me like exactly what would happen as the pump fails; luckily for you, just mild symptoms so far. I'm guessing that "failure"in this context means lower negative pressure (vacuum), especially at low engine speeds, getting progressively worse until there is no assist at all. If that were my car, I wouldn't drive it until I was sure it was fixed.

Thanks for the explanation. Too lazy to weed through all the pages of the thread.
lezam commented:
September 30, 2013, 12:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDF30 View Post
nope, did you go to BMW service? What did they say or do?
they couldnt find it yet, just went into the shop again
Bimmermeupscoty commented:
September 30, 2013, 12:30 pm

1. Is the problem a design defect in all N20/N26 engines, or was a defect in manufacturing that only affects a certain number of cars?

2. If a manufacturing defect, is it all vehicles manufactured between the dates listed in the OP notice, or is it limited to some manufacturing runs or different manufacturing plants? Will they come out with a VIN list?

3. Does it only manifest itself in slower speeds, and if so, why?

4. If BMW knows how to fix the problem, why are they waitng until December?
EDF30 commented:
September 30, 2013, 12:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezam View Post
they couldnt find it yet, just went into the shop again
So you had same symptoms as n20 n26 owners are reporting? Strange as no 335 owners are reporting this, and we have same engine plus the Hybrid tech.

Keep us posted please.
shazi00 commented:
September 30, 2013, 12:49 pm

This is scary. I didn't see any issues yet but now I'm not going to even push the car until this is resolved

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using BimmerApp mobile app
minn19 commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmermeupscoty View Post
1. Is the problem a design defect in all N20/N26 engines, or was a defect in manufacturing that only affects a certain number of cars?

2. If a manufacturing defect, is it all vehicles manufactured between the dates listed in the OP notice, or is it limited to some manufacturing runs or different manufacturing plants? Will they come out with a VIN list?

3. Does it only manifest itself in slower speeds, and if so, why?

4. If BMW knows how to fix the problem, why are they waitng until December?
From what I have read it seems to be mainly the N20/N26, but in the last couple pages of this thread an AH3 owner reported the problem. Could be related or a completely different problem, who knows?

It also seems to mainly happen at slower speeds. Although one person in another forum said he was doing over 100mph on the freeway racing another car when it happened to him. Obviously not a good idea, but that is an entirely different topic (street racing).

I also read that it seems to be a manufacturing defect related to the cam shaft from Munich built 328s. It cuts off oil flow to the vacuum pump and then the pump fails.

Not sure how accurate any of this is, so take it for what it is. It is my summary of what I have read from different forums and a couple of news articles.

Edit: I would guess just N20 engines since all N26s come from South Africa. I could be wrong and somebody correct me please if I am.
elistan commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:29 pm

Here's the oiling diagram for the N55.
Item #22 is the vacuum pump.
Compared to the parts diagram for the N20, the N55's vacuum pump is in an entirely different location.
It appears to be the same part, however. Somebody with access to factory part numbers would have to confirm.
There's no indication whether the same sort of oil delivery system is used, but with the different location I assume the oiling systems are also different.

(FWIW, I believe the engine docs I have are older - Nov 2010 for the N20, July 2009 for the N55 - so current engines could differ from the diagrams I posted.)

minn19 commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:35 pm

I agree with people saying BMW is not handling this as well as they should be. BMWUSA website still has no info when you put in your VIN about recalls. Service Advisors at most dealerships don't even know there is a problem (including mine). If they do know about it, they really don't know what is or how to fix the problem. All we really have to go on is information from knowledgable people in the know here and owners experiences. It is disconcerting that solid information is hard to come by. Not cool BMW.
jwalz1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 1:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazi00 View Post
This is scary. I didn't see any issues yet but now I'm not going to even push the car until this is resolved

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using BimmerApp mobile app
While it certainly is worth looking into and it looks as though BMW is trying to address the issue, I think you might be going a bit far. There are literally hundreds of thousands of models, with millions of miles and this thread cites about five examples of failure.

What we can assume from this is that failures are possible but extremely rare.

While I want mine fixed with the new part, if I had it I would still want to drive it, and I would be just be extra careful at slower speeds as if there were an inch of snow on the ground just to be on the safe side, and get it in as soon as possible for the recall fix.
Although I admit, it sounds like, from the reading of the recall notice, mine will get addressed at VDC a lot sooner than some owners who already have their cars.
DSXMachina commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Here's the oiling diagram for the N55.
Item #22 is the vacuum pump.
Compared to the parts diagram for the N20, the N55's vacuum pump is in an entirely different location.
It appears to be the same part, however. Somebody with access to factory part numbers would have to confirm.
There's no indication whether the same sort of oil delivery system is used, but with the different location I assume the oiling systems are also different.

(FWIW, I believe the engine docs I have are older - Nov 2010 for the N20, July 2009 for the N55 - so current engines could differ from the diagrams I posted.)
It looks like the N55 has a front mounted vacuum pump turned by the accessory drive belt (serpentine belt). The N20 has a cam driven pump which is fixed at the end of the camshaft which passes thru the valve cover and into the pump.
Capobranco commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
While it certainly is worth looking into and it looks as though BMW is trying to address the issue, I think you might be going a bit far. There are literally hundreds of thousands of models, with millions of miles and this thread cites about five examples of failure.

What we can assume from this is that failures are possible but extremely rare.

While I want mine fixed with the new part, if I had it I would still want to drive it, and I would be just be extra careful at slower speeds as if there were an inch of snow on the ground just to be on the safe side, and get it in as soon as possible for the recall fix.
Although I admit, it sounds like, from the reading of the recall notice, mine will get addressed at VDC a lot sooner than some owners who already have their cars.
We know very little.

I find it unconscionable to play Russian roulette with my family's safety based on hypothetical assumptions.
Michael Schott commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
We know very little.

I find it unconscionable to play Russian roulette with my family's safety based on hypothetical assumptions.
Your concerns are understandable. It's your hyperbolic terminology that rubs some the wrong way. Russian Roulette?
beden1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Your concerns are understandable. It's your hyperbolic terminology that rubs some the wrong way. Russian Roulette?
Like in the movie Deer Hunter. Shoot, SHOOT!
elistan commented:
September 30, 2013, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
It looks like the N55 has a front mounted vacuum pump turned by the accessory drive belt (serpentine belt). The N20 has a cam driven pump which is fixed at the end of the camshaft which passes thru the valve cover and into the pump.
I thought the same thing - but the accessory belt diagram in the N55 doc does not show a pulley for the vacuum pump. AC compressor, alternator, idle pulley, power steering pump (!! like I said, it's an older document,) etc., yes, all those. But not for the vacuum pump. I can't find anything that specifically indicates how it's driven, in fact.
jwalz1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
We know very little.

I find it unconscionable to play Russian roulette with my family's safety based on hypothetical assumptions.
You know lots of these cars out there and no death rampant in the streets. You know of very few incidents, and you know that in very litigious US of A a major company that would otherwise be afraid of giant jury awards is not so concerned they are asking you to stop driving right now.

Obviously something is amiss, but for a car that has been out for over two years now, you are just hearing about this and it seems like the sky is falling?

Do what you feel is safe for your family, but internet hyperbole does not help things. For 2012 and 13 models, I see 7 complaints on the NHTSA site for brakes, nearly all are of some failure at very low speed. BMW has sold almost over 150,000 of these in the US, and probably close to 750,000 worldwide. While there are probably more incidents than actual reports, it is rare based on the number of cars.
PK2348 commented:
September 30, 2013, 5:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
While it certainly is worth looking into and it looks as though BMW is trying to address the issue, I think you might be going a bit far. There are literally hundreds of thousands of models, with millions of miles and this thread cites about five examples of failure.

What we can assume from this is that failures are possible but extremely rare.

While I want mine fixed with the new part, if I had it I would still want to drive it, and I would be just be extra careful at slower speeds as if there were an inch of snow on the ground just to be on the safe side, and get it in as soon as possible for the recall fix.
Although I admit, it sounds like, from the reading of the recall notice, mine will get addressed at VDC a lot sooner than some owners who already have their cars.
Out of 100 f30 owners, how many are on any sort of a BMW forum? 1? 2?
You have no data or basis to corroborate your statement
jwalz1 commented:
September 30, 2013, 5:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Out of 100 f30 owners, how many are on any sort of a BMW forum? 1? 2?
You have no data or basis to corroborate your statement
See above edited post. I am not saying there is not a problem, but even if there are ten times the number of failures as actual NHTSA complaints, it is still less than one in 20,000 here in the US. While it could happen, I have not heard of one death. There are a lot of N20 powered cars running around.

Am I in fear of my life? No. If I bought 20,000 cars, it sounds like 1 would have developed this problem, maybe 2. A recall has been issued, and fixes will be provided. I'd still drive my car if it were in my possession, but perhaps more carefully. I am not happy about the issue, but I am not going to be in fear of it. That is easier for me to say as I will have the fix before it is released to me. But I drove it without the fix, and knowing what I know now does that scare me? No. If it was happening to frequently, you would have heard about it a long time ago. Manufacturers do test their vehicles, sometimes something slips by. Except for the drag racer most seem to be slow, parking lot speeds. I might have experienced something close and it was always at around 5mph.

From the recall:


Known accidents
BMW is aware of three minor accidents with no confirmed injuries as a result of this problem. The NTSB has 7 reported incidents but that does not mean they have 7 accident reports. Vehicles affected have experienced the failure at low millage. It is not clear if having a higher mileage car means you will not have the failure.

Should you continue to drive your N20/N26 powered BMW
BMW says it is safe to continue to drive your vehicle for now. As soon as you get the service letter that will be coming in December you should have the recall work performed. If you feel a loss of braking power pull to the side of the road and have your BMW towed to the nearest dealer by BMW Roadside Assistance.



My question about this whole pump failure due to improper lubrication, they must have done some testing to determine, but I wonder if the pumps themselves will be improved on future models.
raleedy commented:
September 30, 2013, 6:13 pm

I think some people are freaked out by the delivery stop imposed on dealers. There are some extenuating circumstances: (a) many of the failures have occurred in the first couple hundred miles, so it would make sense to fix cars that need fixing before they are driven; (b) it is easiest, fastest and cheapest to fix cars on hand than cars in the wild; (c) there is more potential liability in knowingly putting a defective car on the road than in taking steps to fix those in the wild.
greywolf328i commented:
September 30, 2013, 6:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
(c) there is more potential liability in knowingly putting a defective car on the road than in taking steps to fix those in the wild.
I believe that is the real reason for stopping sales. You would think with this being a BMW forum, we would have at least one corporate lawyer

Does anyone know of a good legal reason to avoid selling a car with a known defect vs. cars sold before the defect was known?
Tedj101 commented:
September 30, 2013, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe that is the real reason for stopping sales. You would think with this being a BMW forum, we would have at least one corporate lawyer

Does anyone know of a good legal reason to avoid selling a car with a known defect vs. cars sold before the defect was known?
Yeah, exactly what Raleedy said...
raleedy commented:
September 30, 2013, 7:05 pm

The "real" reason? There can only be one?
pony_trekker commented:
September 30, 2013, 8:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezam View Post
they couldnt find it yet, just went into the shop again
I read your threads. What you have sounds like a different issue. Yours sounds like sloppy braking, but then a grab. This is just -- the brakes are gone --

Like what trying to stop is like with the car stalled.
pony_trekker commented:
September 30, 2013, 8:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe that is the real reason for stopping sales. You would think with this being a BMW forum, we would have at least one corporate lawyer

Does anyone know of a good legal reason to avoid selling a car with a known defect vs. cars sold before the defect was known?
I thought I read somewhere that the NTSB made 'em.
need4speed commented:
September 30, 2013, 8:53 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe that is the real reason for stopping sales. You would think with this being a BMW forum, we would have at least one corporate lawyer

Does anyone know of a good legal reason to avoid selling a car with a known defect vs. cars sold before the defect was known?
Punitive damages. Compensatory damages usually aren't too bad, but knowingly selling a dangerious product, opens the door to major punitive damages. N4S
PK2348 commented:
September 30, 2013, 9:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
See above edited post. I am not saying there is not a problem, but even if there are ten times the number of failures as actual NHTSA complaints, it is still less than one in 20,000 here in the US. While it could happen, I have not heard of one death. There are a lot of N20 powered cars running around.

Am I in fear of my life? No. If I bought 20,000 cars, it sounds like 1 would have developed this problem, maybe 2. A recall has been issued, and fixes will be provided. I'd still drive my car if it were in my possession, but perhaps more carefully. I am not happy about the issue, but I am not going to be in fear of it. That is easier for me to say as I will have the fix before it is released to me. But I drove it without the fix, and knowing what I know now does that scare me? No. If it was happening to frequently, you would have heard about it a long time ago. Manufacturers do test their vehicles, sometimes something slips by. Except for the drag racer most seem to be slow, parking lot speeds. I might have experienced something close and it was always at around 5mph.

My question about this whole pump failure due to improper lubrication, they must have done some testing to determine, but I wonder if the pumps themselves will be improved on future models.
I will provide you with my personal example. My breaks disappeared one sunny day this summer at a very slow speed when the car had 11K on it. No damage was done, by luck.
I brought this up to the service adviser when i came in for an oil change few days later.
They said they could not replicate the problem. Obviously.
There was little else i could do but continue driving my car with sketchy brakes.
How many other people, who never visit any internet forum, had the same experience?
I searched for this issue on the forum and found out there are few others.
One forum member had been through 2 pumps, cam shaft and i forget what else, with no success to date. If BMW has the fix, why is his car still in the shop? Not sure.
This is what pisses me off, i suspect they do not know for sure what the problem is. They were aware of this since at least early 2013 but only acting now after highway safety agency opened an investigation. If my suspicions are correct then they really do not give a flying f__ck about my safety. I understand they are in it to make money, but still that is totally not cool.
greywolf328i commented:
September 30, 2013, 9:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
Punitive damages. Compensatory damages usually aren't too bad, but knowingly selling a dangerious product, opens the door to major punitive damages. N4S
That makes sense. Knew there had to be a difference in terms of liability.
bmw142 commented:
September 30, 2013, 9:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
I will provide you with my personal example. My breaks disappeared one sunny day this summer at a very slow speed when the car had 11K on it. No damage was done, by luck.
I brought this up to the service adviser when i came in for an oil change few days later.
They said they could not replicate the problem. Obviously.
There was little else i could do but continue driving my car with sketchy brakes.
How many other people, who never visit any internet forum, had the same experience?
I searched for this issue on the forum and found out there are few others.
One forum member had been through 2 pumps, cam shaft and i forget what else, with no success to date. If BMW has the fix, why is his car still in the shop? Not sure.
This is what pisses me off, i suspect they do not know for sure what the problem is. They were aware of this since at least early 2013 but only acting now after highway safety agency opened an investigation. If my suspicions are correct then they really do not give a flying f__ck about my safety. I understand they are in it to make money, but still that is totally not cool.
Actually here is a link to the start of this problem as many of us posted over on the other forum.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843186
PK2348 commented:
September 30, 2013, 9:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
Actually here is a link to the start of this problem as many of us posted over on the other forum.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843186
I still think the e90 guy was just drifting the loaner when he crashed. Of course i could be wrong.
Capobranco commented:
September 30, 2013, 11:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
You know lots of these cars out there and no death rampant in the streets. You know of very few incidents, and you know that in very litigious US of A a major company that would otherwise be afraid of giant jury awards is not so concerned they are asking you to stop driving right now.

Obviously something is amiss, but for a car that has been out for over two years now, you are just hearing about this and it seems like the sky is falling?

Do what you feel is safe for your family, but internet hyperbole does not help things. For 2012 and 13 models, I see 7 complaints on the NHTSA site for brakes, nearly all are of some failure at very low speed. BMW has sold almost over 150,000 of these in the US, and probably close to 750,000 worldwide. While there are probably more incidents than actual reports, it is rare based on the number of cars.
Hyperbole? Nay -- apt metaphor.

"Obviously something is amiss" – true

You offer conjecture as to what BMW does, and does not know. Given BMW's less than stellar record regarding acknowledging manufacturer defects - e.g. HPFP ( I owned an 07 335i), BMW would not issue a recall unless they found the complaints meritorious ,substantive, and with looming liability.

It really comes down to "acceptable loses" – I am certain BMW has weighed the "costs" of alternative strategies. What are acceptable losses? - "a Kindergartener…. her Grandmother…." I am playing Russian roulette - I cannot know, and you cannot offer assurances beyond suspect statistics, which you cannot possibly fully understand, if my brakes will fail - but BMW has issued a recall which demonstrates that they suspect my car may possess a fatal flaw. Allow me to defer from the distinction of having my family be the first fatalities.

So what's your threshold for risk – are you prepared to risk the safety of your family and of other innocents based on very thin information borne by present assurances from BMW?
shazi00 commented:
October 1, 2013, 12:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
While it certainly is worth looking into and it looks as though BMW is trying to address the issue, I think you might be going a bit far. There are literally hundreds of thousands of models, with millions of miles and this thread cites about five examples of failure.

What we can assume from this is that failures are possible but extremely rare.

While I want mine fixed with the new part, if I had it I would still want to drive it, and I would be just be extra careful at slower speeds as if there were an inch of snow on the ground just to be on the safe side, and get it in as soon as possible for the recall fix.
Although I admit, it sounds like, from the reading of the recall notice, mine will get addressed at VDC a lot sooner than some owners who already have their cars.
Agreed but as a lot of people here r saying a lot of service advisors have no clue n neither the dealers. Is there a confirmed report that all sales on 4 cyl have been halted ? If so then this is def serious.

I guess at this point BMW is just trying not to spread panic and trying to find a fix. Saw an accident this morning on a f30 320i n it was side impacted in the middle of the intersection. Hope the brakes didn't fail on that car.

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ard commented:
October 1, 2013, 6:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I would if I could...I took delivery of a 328xi about 2 months ago. I bought the car as a daily driver and was motivated primarily by the car's efficiency and safety - as you are well aware there are many less expensive alternatives. Car is my 8TH BMW. I have already have plans for my 9TH and 10TH next year.

In the past I have found BMWNA's responsiveness and loyalty to existing clients to be noteworthy and hopefully they will use this very difficult situation to demonstrate their responsible corporate citizenship.
One of the funnier things in this thread. Their 'responsiveness and loyalty' is inversely proportional to how much it costs them...when you are paying too much on deals, or it costs them nothing to give you a reacharound, it is easy for them to be a buddy and 'treat you right'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Your concerns are understandable. It's your hyperbolic terminology that rubs some the wrong way. Russian Roulette?
OMG yes. If I hear "my family" again, my head will explode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
I believe that is the real reason for stopping sales. You would think with this being a BMW forum, we would have at least one corporate lawyer

Does anyone know of a good legal reason to avoid selling a car with a known defect vs. cars sold before the defect was known?
Simple: there is a federal law that prohibits selling a car with an identified recall as active. federal law. As in CRIMINAL ACT.

Nothing to do with the amount of damages, has to do with jail time and criminal comnvictions. Way different than a civillawsuit.


Finally, I am not surprised at the lack on info going to dealers...this may be pretty big and BMW wants to minimize the impact. The "1%" here will just have to chill...last thing they want are the masses of BMW owners panicking, and telling dealers (who are blabbermouths) isnt a good plan until they know precisely the scope and fix.

IMO
shazi00 commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:23 am

Oops government shut down. No criminal law lol

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need4speed commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:33 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
One of the funnier things in this thread. Their 'responsiveness and loyalty' is inversely proportional to how much it costs them...when you are paying too much on deals, or it costs them nothing to give you a reacharound, it is easy for them to be a buddy and 'treat you right'.



OMG yes. If I hear "my family" again, my head will explode.



Simple: there is a federal law that prohibits selling a car with an identified recall as active. federal law. As in CRIMINAL ACT.

Nothing to do with the amount of damages, has to do with jail time and criminal comnvictions. Way different than a civillawsuit.


Finally, I am not surprised at the lack on info going to dealers...this may be pretty big and BMW wants to minimize the impact. The "1%" here will just have to chill...last thing they want are the masses of BMW owners panicking, and telling dealers (who are blabbermouths) isnt a good plan until they know precisely the scope and fix.

IMO
Is this a federal safety recall, or is it something BMW is doing "voluntarily"? No official Fed recall, no criminal penaltys. IMHO at this point they are more worried about 9 figure civil judgements. N4S
Tedj101 commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazi00 View Post
Oops government shut down. No criminal law lol
Not entirely. I got a message from the 3rd Circuit saying that they are remaining open and telling government lawyers to find ways to keep their cases moving - period!
samualcc commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:53 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
Is this a federal safety recall, or is it something BMW is doing "voluntarily"? No official Fed recall, no criminal penaltys. IMHO at this point they are more worried about 9 figure civil judgements. N4S
Most recalls are voluntary. There are many vehicle recalls throughout the course of a year, most of them done with very little media attention, and most of them never even involve a vehicle accident or major incident. I like to believe that most smart companies will pay the price of a vehicle recall (likely already planned for just given past history/odds) than take the risk of criminal negligence and class action.

I really believe that most companies come out smelling fine after this. 95% of BMW buyers will get the letter, go in and get there car fixed. Probably enjoy a cup of coffee or a loaner vehicle in the process. Most of them will describe it as "some brake thing, I don't know".
jwalz1 commented:
October 1, 2013, 10:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post


OMG yes. If I hear "my family" again, my head will explode.




IMO
This.

Nothing spreads panic like the internet.

And as far as government shutdown, customs is still open. The Don Juan pulling into Jersey on Wednesday is going to go right on schedule.
Zochin60 commented:
October 1, 2013, 11:59 am

The mainstream media does have the story

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...-problem/?_r=0








.
chiefneil commented:
October 1, 2013, 12:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
Most recalls are voluntary. There are many vehicle recalls throughout the course of a year, most of them done with very little media attention, and most of them never even involve a vehicle accident or major incident. I like to believe that most smart companies will pay the price of a vehicle recall (likely already planned for just given past history/odds) than take the risk of criminal negligence and class action.

I really believe that most companies come out smelling fine after this. 95% of BMW buyers will get the letter, go in and get there car fixed. Probably enjoy a cup of coffee or a loaner vehicle in the process. Most of them will describe it as "some brake thing, I don't know".
The vast majority of recalls are voluntary. I don't think there's been an involuntary recall for decades. If you missed the recent Chrysler recall fiasco, they were asked to do a recall and refused. The wheels started gearing up for forcing the recall amidst huge negative publicity when Chrysler caved and did it voluntarily.

Anyway back on topic, a dealer over on another forum did confirm that they have halted sales on cars on their lot that are affected by the issue.
dan_y97 commented:
October 1, 2013, 12:47 pm

I currently have a 2014 328Xi in transit from Germany. It was built in Germany in the last week of August. So it's right on the edge of whether or not it's part of this recall.

The customer service rep on BMW North America's phone line keeps telling me that the car is not in their system yet (even thought I have the VIN) and that since it's not in their system they can't tell me if it's affected. I find it very odd that there's not some list of affected VIN numbers somewhere in BMW....and I'd think that the moment a recall was issued, that that list would be immediately in the hands of customer service, or have some routing to allow customer service to inform customers if their car is affected.

Even more hilarious was the first service rep, who told me that it will be 3-4 weeks before they can tell if my vehicle is affected, so I should take delivery of the vehicle when it arrives (in a week) and then wait and see if I get a letter in the mail regarding the recall. HA! Like I'm really going to drive a brand new car off the dealer's lot already knowing it has a braking failure issue and not knowing if it's been fixed or not. Sorry...that's not going to happen.

The supervisor I talked to tried to tell me that the dealers would know if the car is part of the recall....but I questioned him on how the dealer's would know, if the national customer service department doesn't? I'd think, in the normal organization of a business, that the national organization would be informed before the local dealers...or at least have access to that information at the same time as the local dealers.
Basically, after pushing repeatedly, trying to find out who at BMW...somewhere...would have the information of what VINs are affected, I was basically told by the rep that they don't know who has that information and that I basically just have to wait and hope that my car's recall repair happens at the port delivery center or at the dealer. They won't have that kind of specific information for a few weeks.
Now, I guess I have to call the dealer and let them know that I'm not accepting delivery of the vehicle without clear documentation that either A) my car was not included in the recall of B) it was, and that repairs were performed prior to me accepting the car.

Not even an official BMW owner yet, and I'm already disappointing in BMW's customer service and ability to know what's going on in their own house.
samualcc commented:
October 1, 2013, 1:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
The vast majority of recalls are voluntary. I don't think there's been an involuntary recall for decades. If you missed the recent Chrysler recall fiasco, they were asked to do a recall and refused. The wheels started gearing up for forcing the recall amidst huge negative publicity when Chrysler caved and did it voluntarily.
Did I say something different?
nrock commented:
October 1, 2013, 1:36 pm

My PCD is tomorrow on my MY2014 328xi that had an August 22 production completion date. I have not heard anything about a cancellation. My understanding is that the car cannot be delivered until the recall work is done. My assumption is that it will be or has been done at the performance center prior to my delivery. Does anyone have any insight on wether or not this will be the case?


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chiefneil commented:
October 1, 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
Did I say something different?
No just expanding on what you said.
lezam commented:
October 1, 2013, 2:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDF30 View Post
So you had same symptoms as n20 n26 owners are reporting? Strange as no 335 owners are reporting this, and we have same engine plus the Hybrid tech.

Keep us posted please.
Apparently it was diagnosed due to a faulty electric vacuum pump that activates when the engine is off, and the car is using battery power.

I wonder if the incidents with the smaller engine are caused by the same fault? I'll report back if I encounter the issue again
shazi00 commented:
October 1, 2013, 2:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zochin60 View Post
The mainstream media does have the story

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...-problem/?_r=0








.
Mainstream media wants u to go buy an American car !!!


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jwalz1 commented:
October 1, 2013, 2:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_y97 View Post
I currently have a 2014 328Xi in transit from Germany. It was built in Germany in the last week of August. So it's right on the edge of whether or not it's part of this recall.

The customer service rep on BMW North America's phone line keeps telling me that the car is not in their system yet (even thought I have the VIN) and that since it's not in their system they can't tell me if it's affected. I find it very odd that there's not some list of affected VIN numbers somewhere in BMW....and I'd think that the moment a recall was issued, that that list would be immediately in the hands of customer service, or have some routing to allow customer service to inform customers if their car is affected.

Even more hilarious was the first service rep, who told me that it will be 3-4 weeks before they can tell if my vehicle is affected, so I should take delivery of the vehicle when it arrives (in a week) and then wait and see if I get a letter in the mail regarding the recall. HA! Like I'm really going to drive a brand new car off the dealer's lot already knowing it has a braking failure issue and not knowing if it's been fixed or not. Sorry...that's not going to happen.

The supervisor I talked to tried to tell me that the dealers would know if the car is part of the recall....but I questioned him on how the dealer's would know, if the national customer service department doesn't? I'd think, in the normal organization of a business, that the national organization would be informed before the local dealers...or at least have access to that information at the same time as the local dealers.
Basically, after pushing repeatedly, trying to find out who at BMW...somewhere...would have the information of what VINs are affected, I was basically told by the rep that they don't know who has that information and that I basically just have to wait and hope that my car's recall repair happens at the port delivery center or at the dealer. They won't have that kind of specific information for a few weeks.
Now, I guess I have to call the dealer and let them know that I'm not accepting delivery of the vehicle without clear documentation that either A) my car was not included in the recall of B) it was, and that repairs were performed prior to me accepting the car.

Not even an official BMW owner yet, and I'm already disappointing in BMW's customer service and ability to know what's going on in their own house.
Your dealer knows. I asked mine about the recall and he told me it would be fixed at VDC. If you look at the recall notice, it CLEARLY states vehicles coming in to the country should not leave VDC without the fix, those at dealer lots should not leave until the fix.

He also said they had three in inventory that were part of the recall, and they were doing the service to them over the weekend. It is a small dealer but it sounded as if it were just a routine they have done a thousand times.

Don't be surprised the customer service people know very little. They always seem to know very little. I don't want to put them down as people, but there are folks who get a few bucks an hour to answer phones and a book full of scripts to run through based on your question. They are hardly plugged into the inner circle at BMW.
raleedy commented:
October 1, 2013, 3:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazi00 View Post
Mainstream media wants u to go buy an American car !!!


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Sure. Like, maybe, an X3.
PK2348 commented:
October 1, 2013, 5:13 pm

I sent an email to my dealer about the recall, since i did have my brakes fail once, this is what i got back. According to this particular SA they do not have a fix yet!!!

The recall they just released is still pending information. They don't have a fix for it yet. They are still processing all effected vehicles and repair procedures. We don't have any available parts or anything yet. I do have a pamphlet of information at your request. As of right now, we don't have any guidelines for repairs, so an appointment wouldn't make any difference. As soon as we have updated information we will contact all effected vehicles and proceed with repairs.
jwalz1 commented:
October 1, 2013, 5:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
I sent an email to my dealer about the recall, since i did have my brakes fail once, this is what i got back. According to this particular SA they do not have a fix yet!!!

The recall they just released is still pending information. They don't have a fix for it yet. They are still processing all effected vehicles and repair procedures. We don't have any available parts or anything yet. I do have a pamphlet of information at your request. As of right now, we don't have any guidelines for repairs, so an appointment wouldn't make any difference. As soon as we have updated information we will contact all effected vehicles and proceed with repairs.
I suppose some dealers don't have what they need, but if September builds are not subject to the recall, then BMW has obviously changed something. The have had different parts for those September builds.

The recall notice details the repair of inserting a locking ring but says a solution for existing vehicles is "under development". Clear as mud.
tim330i commented:
October 1, 2013, 5:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
I sent an email to my dealer about the recall, since i did have my brakes fail once, this is what i got back. According to this particular SA they do not have a fix yet!!!

The recall they just released is still pending information. They don't have a fix for it yet. They are still processing all effected vehicles and repair procedures. We don't have any available parts or anything yet. I do have a pamphlet of information at your request. As of right now, we don't have any guidelines for repairs, so an appointment wouldn't make any difference. As soon as we have updated information we will contact all effected vehicles and proceed with repairs.

Did you read the first post all the way through?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=724599

There won't be a fix until December.

Tim
Bret_T commented:
October 1, 2013, 6:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
I sent an email to my dealer about the recall, since i did have my brakes fail once, this is what i got back. According to this particular SA they do not have a fix yet!!!
BMW would be dump not to provide you a free rental since you have actually experienced the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
I suppose some dealers don't have what they need, but if September builds are not subject to the recall, then BMW has obviously changed something. The have had different parts for those September builds.
Don't assume that the solutions for vehicles being assembled and already built vehicles are going to be the same.
valley_nomad commented:
October 1, 2013, 7:23 pm

When I told my SA that I heard the news on recall and wondered whether I should drive my 328i (made in May 2013) for a 400 mile trip tomorrow, he just simply gave me a somewhat robotic answer:
"THERE IS NO RECALL SO FAR" :-(
SNye45 commented:
October 1, 2013, 7:30 pm

I called my dealer today regarding this recall, as I have a July 2013 build, 2014 328xi. He said that he already had part of the list of the affected VIN numbers, and so far luckily mine was not on it.

I asked that if my VIN was to be part of the recall what is the "repair" needed to the Brake Vacuum system. He replied that just a "clip" needed to be installed. He added that letters would go out to owners of the affected VINs in early November

I am also going to take a 650 mile weekend trip very shortly
raleedy commented:
October 1, 2013, 7:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Did you read the first post all the way through?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=724599

There won't be a fix until December.

Tim
That seems to me open to interpretation. They told us they're inserting a lock ring to prevent lubrication becoming "restricted". What they clearly don't have is a campaign to recall and fix cars already in the field, which involves publicity, service training and deployment of parts--and, not insignificantly, a strategy for determining whether every car in the affected model runs needs to be modified, or if some can be inspected and cleared as is.

It would be interesting to know if they are able to modify new cars in inventory or in the pipeline to be able to deliver them at this point. It would surprise me if they are not. I suspect there are cars that have had the problem that have also been modified or repaired. Presumably some have damaged vacuum pumps that have to be replaced, but some may just need the lock ring.

There's a great deal we don't know.
PK2348 commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Did you read the first post all the way through?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=724599

There won't be a fix until December.

Tim
Yes i did.
I understand there is a fix since cars produced in September are not subject to recall. It is just not available for cars that are already sold, because ..... well..... they're already sold.
Bret_T commented:
October 1, 2013, 9:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Yes i did.
I understand there is a fix since cars produced in September are not subject to recall. It is just not available for cars that are already sold, because ..... well..... they're already sold.
I'll say it again. Don't assume that the solutions for vehicles being assembled and previously assembled vehicles are going to be the same. That said, if the solution is the same, you can bet that the production line has priority. BMW is already going to take a big financial hit on this one. Shutting down production would be financially devastating.
pointandgo commented:
October 1, 2013, 10:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by valley_nomad View Post
When I told my SA that I heard the news on recall and wondered whether I should drive my 328i (made in May 2013) for a 400 mile trip tomorrow, he just simply gave me a somewhat robotic answer:
"THERE IS NO RECALL SO FAR" :-(
valley,

Your post is the only one that "jives" right now. More than three days after "Bernie's" post, there is no indication whatsoever of a recall on NHTSA's "recall" web site.

I'm signed up with NHTSA for "automatic" recall notification (e-mail) and received a long list of recalls last night. NOTHING about a BMW brake recall. What's up?

NHTSA's office of defect investigation (ODI) does show an ongoing investigation of the brake problem with no recent updates.

As BMW can't just go off on their own with a "recall" without NHTSA's involvement, I haven't the faintest idea what is going on now, but one thing is for sure: There is NO recall announced by NHTSA on their web site, and BMW can't act independently prior to notifying NHTSA.

Edit: NHTSA posted today that they won't be able to announce recalls after Sept. 30th due to the government shutdown.
mr_clueless commented:
October 1, 2013, 10:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post

As BMW can't just go off on their own with a "recall" without NHTSA's involvement, I haven't the faintest idea what is going on now, but one thing is for sure: There is NO recall announced by NHTSA on their web site, and BMW can't act independently prior to notifying NHTSA.

Edit: NHTSA posted today that they won't be able to announce recalls after Sept. 30th due to the government shutdown.
This version might say it more accurately:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/09/29/bm...20-n26-engine/
A new BMW recall is coming in the near future. In a bulletin sent to BMW dealers, the company announces its intention ...
...

This article makes it sound like there is an impending recall, but the only thing they have right now is the bulletin out to the dealers. So may not be an official recall, but we know it's coming.
mr_clueless commented:
October 1, 2013, 10:56 pm

Looking back at my email communication with the CA, my car was closed for production on Aug 26 and was done with production on Sep 6. Is my car affected? How much more interesting can this get?
pointandgo commented:
October 1, 2013, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
This version might say it more accurately:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/09/29/bm...20-n26-engine/
A new BMW recall is coming in the near future. In a bulletin sent to BMW dealers, the company announces its intention ...
...

This article makes it sound like there is an impending recall, but the only thing they have right now is the bulletin out to the dealers. So may not be an official recall, but we know it's coming.
Any manufacturer anticipating a recall must submit their "recall letter" to NHTSA for approval. NHTSA would then acknowledge the recall letter on their web site. This has not happened.
AndDown commented:
October 1, 2013, 11:21 pm

Talked with a friend who is a master BMW mechanic at one of the dealerships around here. He said there was something major coming regarding the vacuum pump, but he didn't have more detailed information. So it sounds the service depts have been advised, but don't have more information than what we already know.
av98 commented:
October 2, 2013, 1:00 am

More recall details along with other BMW recalls over the past few years covering all models affected.

http://t.autos.msn.com/news/bmw-reca...cars-worldwide


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328AL commented:
October 2, 2013, 5:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by av98 View Post
More recall details along with other BMW recalls over the past few years covering all models affected.

http://t.autos.msn.com/news/bmw-reca...cars-worldwide


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Did not take long
328AL commented:
October 2, 2013, 5:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Looking back at my email communication with the CA, my car was closed for production on Aug 26 and was done with production on Sep 6. Is my car affected? How much more interesting can this get?
Should find out soon, you won't get it delivered if it's impacted, until it gets fixed by your dealer. My car has about the same dates, and it's on the boat now. Do not know if it's a subject to the recall, hopefully not! Technically, it was produced (production completed) in September.
pony_trekker commented:
October 2, 2013, 5:50 am

Keep in mind NHTSA ain't doing squat for the moment . . .
Guy3Series commented:
October 2, 2013, 9:18 am

This is Amazing. NHTSA is shutdown; Government doesn't know what is going on, they can't figure out a damn thing. BMW officially hasn't responded anything and we as consumer's using our new BMW's with vague information on the recall.

This is called MESS.

BTW: Mine is 328i, Aug 8th week Build (Week 32). I always wondered why my brake's were so soft. Is this normal with other "new" cars? I thought the brakes should be tight and the amount of pressure I put on a the pedal should be less with effective braking.
raleedy commented:
October 2, 2013, 9:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy3Series View Post
This is Amazing. NHTSA is shutdown; Government doesn't know what is going on, they can't figure out a damn thing. BMW officially hasn't responded anything and we as consumer's using our new BMW's with vague information on the recall.

This is called MESS.

BTW: Mine is 328i, Aug 8th week Build (Week 32). I always wondered why my brake's were so soft. Is this normal with other "new" cars? I thought the brakes should be tight and the amount of pressure I put on a the pedal should be less with effective braking.
Soft is probably good at this point. Loss of brake power assist would make the pedal hard. Try pressing the pedal a few times with the engine not running and see how the pedal feels after the residual vacuum in the system has been used up. That should equate to braking action if the vacuum pump fails.
PK2348 commented:
October 2, 2013, 11:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
I'll say it again. Don't assume that the solutions for vehicles being assembled and previously assembled vehicles are going to be the same. That said, if the solution is the same, you can bet that the production line has priority. BMW is already going to take a big financial hit on this one. Shutting down production would be financially devastating.
Putting out an unsafe product to the market, especially a vehicle with compromised brakes, will and should cause financial devastation to the manufacturer.
Their financial issues are least of my concern. I only care about unreliable brakes on my one year old BMW.
av98 commented:
October 2, 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
I'll say it again. Don't assume that the solutions for vehicles being assembled and previously assembled vehicles are going to be the same. That said, if the solution is the same, you can bet that the production line has priority. BMW is already going to take a big financial hit on this one. Shutting down production would be financially devastating.
They can afford this with the record BMW sales volumes that they have publicly disclosed over the last year. I would not worry about the manufacturer. Worry about your own safety first!


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stcrew11 commented:
October 2, 2013, 3:53 pm

I called my dealer today regarding this recall, they dont even know what I am talking about.
KES328 commented:
October 2, 2013, 8:18 pm

Does anyone know if the dealers are selling what is in stock? From the original post it would appear that they cant but I am not sure that it has been confirmed.

I was close to pulling the trigger on a 2013 328ix when the recall news hit this site so I decided to sit tight for a few days and see how things played out. I have two dealers in play but don't want to start the final effort to buy until I know I can negotiate and take delivery of a car with the recall fixed. I could call them but it seems they may not have the full story etc. and I only want to call them one more time when it is time to buy. Thanks
lezam commented:
October 2, 2013, 8:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by KES328 View Post
Does anyone know if the dealers are selling what is in stock? From the original post it would appear that they cant but I am not sure that it has been confirmed.

I was close to pulling the trigger on a 2013 328ix when the recall news hit this site so I decided to sit tight for a few days and see how things played out. I have two dealers in play but don't want to start the final effort to buy until I know I can negotiate and take delivery of a car with the recall fixed. I could call them but it seems they may not have the full story etc. and I only want to call them one more time when it is time to buy. Thanks
My dealer told me they pulled all the 320 and 328s
gling98 commented:
October 2, 2013, 8:35 pm

Based on news of the brake recall, I contacted my SA at the local dealership over the weekend to schedule an appointment. The SA had no idea of such a forthcoming recall, but said I was free to schedule an appointment. I said that I may have experienced on at least one occasion less braking force than anticipated while driving at a low speed in city traffic. I stated that at the time, I attributed it to be a normal characteristic of the vehicle. In any event, I told him that out of an abundance of caution I wanted my car inspected and/or repaired in light of the brake recall as I may have experienced a symptom of the defect.

I brought my car to the dealer on Tuesday. SA was very resistant to taking in the car. He said regardless of whether any repair is completed at this time, I would still have to bring the car back pursuant to the recall, IF my particular car is affected. His reasoning, which you may also be thinking as you read this, made no sense to me at all. I told him flatly that I am looking out for my safety, and I am requesting that any necessary repair work be done to my car so that it is safe. I told him that it is not my burden to demonstrate to him that repair work is necessary, but that it is BMW's responsibility. To put it mildly, the entire encounter with my SA was very unpleasant.

The SA arranged a drive of the car with the foreman. Foreman was unaware of any brake recall, so I pulled up an NY Times article on my phone to show him. After a drive around the block, the foreman said he could not detect anything wrong with the brakes on the car.

My car is currently at the dealer. I received a voicemail this afternoon from the SA, who said that they were unable to identify any defect with my brakes. Also, the SA said they had been in touch with "BMW Technical," which informed them that my particular VIN is not subject to the brake recall. However, BMW Technical also advised the dealer to perform a 10-15 mile road test to see if there is any issue with my brakes.

I called back and left a voicemail with the SA, telling him to go ahead with the road test.

I don't think this brake recall regards a defect that can be detected by a mere road test. I am not sure what to do next. I just want to have some specific assurance that my car is safe to drive. Help!!
Capobranco commented:
October 2, 2013, 8:50 pm

Noting gling98 ^^^

Given
- BMW Technical says your VIN is not subject to the recall -
- The service department could not find any faults
- The dealership is further preforming a further test per BMW and assuming it's normal...

I think you should feel reassured for the time being even though some have reported the brake problem as being intermittent. No one can give you a 100 percent guarantee - you have taken prudent proactive steps - there is really nothing else you can do....if I were you I would feel reassured.
bt1339 commented:
October 2, 2013, 8:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gling98 View Post
Based on news of the brake recall, I contacted my SA at the local dealership over the weekend to schedule an appointment. The SA had no idea of such a forthcoming recall, but said I was free to schedule an appointment. I said that I may have experienced on at least one occasion less braking force than anticipated while driving at a low speed in city traffic. I stated that at the time, I attributed it to be a normal characteristic of the vehicle. In any event, I told him that out of an abundance of caution I wanted my car inspected and/or repaired in light of the brake recall as I may have experienced a symptom of the defect.

I brought my car to the dealer on Tuesday. SA was very resistant to taking in the car. He said regardless of whether any repair is completed at this time, I would still have to bring the car back pursuant to the recall, IF my particular car is affected. His reasoning, which you may also be thinking as you read this, made no sense to me at all. I told him flatly that I am looking out for my safety, and I am requesting that any necessary repair work be done to my car so that it is safe. I told him that it is not my burden to demonstrate to him that repair work is necessary, but that it is BMW's responsibility. To put it mildly, the entire encounter with my SA was very unpleasant.

The SA arranged a drive of the car with the foreman. Foreman was unaware of any brake recall, so I pulled up an NY Times article on my phone to show him. After a drive around the block, the foreman said he could not detect anything wrong with the brakes on the car.

My car is currently at the dealer. I received a voicemail this afternoon from the SA, who said that they were unable to identify any defect with my brakes. Also, the SA said they had been in touch with "BMW Technical," which informed them that my particular VIN is not subject to the brake recall. However, BMW Technical also advised the dealer to perform a 10-15 mile road test to see if there is any issue with my brakes.

I called back and left a voicemail with the SA, telling him to go ahead with the road test.

I don't think this brake recall regards a defect that can be detected by a mere road test. I am not sure what to do next. I just want to have some specific assurance that my car is safe to drive. Help!!
To be fair it looks like BMW has not yet issued the detailed repair procedure to the dealers, not to mention the parts. This appears to me like this issue would be hidden from view and I wouldn't expect a tech to have x-ray vision and be able to tell if you have the issue or not. In my opinion you're making your life harder by leaving your car at the dealership where nothing will happen until BMW communicates with their dealers.

It's debatable but it looks like the car is still safe to drive since you don't lose brake function, merely assisted braking. I would drive cautiously (safety distance and respect the speed limit) but that's all I would do personally at this point.
Mjbr commented:
October 2, 2013, 10:50 pm

It takes weeks to launch a recall. First, NHTSA dictates what and when anything happens. Dont forget that BMW volunteered to do this recall. Next, BMW has to create a repair procedure, test it and then get the supplier to build a revised version of the parts. They have to wait for inventory to build up before launching the thousands of letters tht have to go out. Again, if NHTSA disagrees with anything listed above, they have to change plans and start again. It takes this long with every manufacturer. On the bright side, every car has a "passport" where every part is assigned to a car. They know the build date and version of every component in every car, so when they identify the defective part, they know exactly which cars are affected.
brkf commented:
October 2, 2013, 11:06 pm

Shrug. No big deal.
imua1 commented:
October 12, 2013, 9:30 pm

Has anybody had a power brake failure yet? If so was dealer able to repair or was the car sidelined?
drunkship48 commented:
October 16, 2013, 7:21 am

I am very confused, What is going on with this recall, I have read articles about it but I still see that people are still buying 3 series which were on the list for recall. can someone help me understand.
zoombie99 commented:
October 16, 2013, 7:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkship48 View Post
I am very confused, What is going on with this recall, I have read articles about it but I still see that people are still buying 3 series which were on the list for recall. can someone help me understand.
You need to read the entire thread and all your questions will be answered.


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Bret_T commented:
October 16, 2013, 9:26 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoombie99 View Post
You need to read the entire thread and all your questions will be answered.
I have the same impression as drunkship48. Perhaps there's some conflicting information, but it was said that sales of the 328's are supposed to be suspended until they are repaired.
raleedy commented:
October 16, 2013, 10:45 am

Consider the possibility that cars are being repaired and then delivered.
PK2348 commented:
October 16, 2013, 11:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
Consider the possibility that cars are being repaired and then delivered.
But BMW is saying they do not have a solution in place yet? Would it not be prudent to first fix cars already on the road?
tim330i commented:
October 16, 2013, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
But BMW is saying they do not have a solution in place yet? Would it not be prudent to first fix cars already on the road?
Only cam shafts from one supplier are effected. If a car has a cam from BMW's other supplier(s) then there is no problem. So it is completely reasonable for BMW to continue to sell cars that are not effected.

They're working on a reasonable fix for the cars already on the road. It also maybe they don't have enough parts yet. That doesn't mean they don't have a VDC solution that is being implemented for cars at the port.

Tim
Bret_T commented:
October 16, 2013, 11:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Only cam shafts from one supplier are effected.
If the defective cam shafts have somehow impacted the power brakes, isn't it also likely that they are having some sort of impact on the HP output? I'm not a mechanical engineer (I am an industrial engineer), but I don't see how a defect in the cam shaft could have only this one isolated consequence.
tim330i commented:
October 16, 2013, 11:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
If the defective cam shafts have somehow impacted the power brakes, isn't it also likely that they are having some sort of impact on the HP output? I'm not a mechanical engineer (I am an industrial engineer), but I don't see how a defect in the cam shaft could have only this one isolated consequence.
Negative -

Quote:
The oil supply from the intake camshaft to the brake vacuum pump can become restricted. If this happens the brake vacuum pump could fail due to lack of lubrication, resulting in a loss of power brake assist.
Read the first post for more info -

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=724599

Tim
RG_MN commented:
October 16, 2013, 11:58 am

I did a European Delivery pick up of my Munich built 2014 320i on August 20. I picked it up at the dealer in Minnesota last week. My CA said it took a little longer than expected due to a work order at the VPC. She did not know specifically what was fixed, but I am somewhat assuming that it was the brake issue.
greywolf328i commented:
October 16, 2013, 12:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Only cam shafts from one supplier are effected. If a car has a cam from BMW's other supplier(s) then there is no problem. So it is completely reasonable for BMW to continue to sell cars that are not effected.

They're working on a reasonable fix for the cars already on the road. It also maybe they don't have enough parts yet. That doesn't mean they don't have a VDC solution that is being implemented for cars at the port.

Tim
Where did you get this information. The first post hasn't been updated with any mention of certain camshaft suppliers.

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tim330i commented:
October 16, 2013, 12:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf328i View Post
Where did you get this information. The first post hasn't been updated with any mention of certain camshaft suppliers.

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Bernie and I work together to create content for the site. We're getting information from the same source, I'll give you one guess. Bernie has updated the first post now.

Tim
greywolf328i commented:
October 16, 2013, 1:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Bernie and I work together to create content for the site. We're getting information from the same source, I'll give you one guess. Bernie has updated the first post now.

Tim
Ok good. It made sense, just hadn't seen an update. Is there anyway to tell yet which builds have the suspect camshaft?

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tim330i commented:
October 16, 2013, 1:07 pm

BMW hasn't released that info as far as I can tell.

Tim
Bernie@Bimmerfest commented:
October 16, 2013, 3:45 pm

Near the end of September, BMWNA announced its intention to conduct a voluntary recall on certain 2012-14 BMW 3 Series, 5, X1, X3, and Z4 equipped with an N20 or N26 engine, with production from May 2012- August 2013.

Possible loss of brake power assist could occur, due to a lack of oil supply to the brake vacuum pump from the intake camshaft. Brakes would still function, however greater pedal pressure would be required, increasing stopping distance.

A repair was not yet available, but would involve the inserting of a lock ring onto the camshaft, so the pump would not be impaired.

An update has been issued to the previous announcement. A stop delivery of certain N20/26 equipped models, according to vin, has been announced. Only camshafts from a certain supplier exhibit this issue. This means that not all N20/26 equipped vehicles are not involved in this stop delivery and recall.

A repair is currently under development. It will secure the intake camshaft oil plug, but will not be available before December.

Owners of already delivered vehicles will receive notification in November, to inform on the issue. A second notification will be mailed in December, advising customers to schedule an appointment to have the recall completed, when parts and procedure become available.

The original post has also been updated with this information.
EstorilF30 commented:
October 16, 2013, 3:49 pm

I feel like this is going to be a nightmare given the shortage of F30 parts and delays forum users have posted about.
PK2348 commented:
October 16, 2013, 4:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
I feel like this is going to be a nightmare given the shortage of F30 parts and delays forum users have posted about.
It's already somewhat there. At least for those who are effected. I parked my car in my garage about 3 weeks ago and have not been using it unless i really need it. Since my brakes failed once i would rather not take chances, and seems like BMW has their priorities elsewhere. Fixing the cars at VDC, not the ones diving around with sketchy brakes.
Not something i expected from a Company with their reputation. Definitely convinced me that once this lease is over, i will not be driving another BMW for the foreseeable future.
raleedy commented:
October 16, 2013, 4:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by EstorilF30 View Post
I feel like this is going to be a nightmare given the shortage of F30 parts and delays forum users have posted about.
I thought the shortages involved crash parts, but of course that's not irrelevant to this situation.
tturedraider commented:
October 16, 2013, 5:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
I thought the shortages involved crash parts, but of course that's not irrelevant to this situation.
Starting about six months ago BMW began implementing a new supply chain logistics system from SAP and IBM for their spare parts supply function and it has turned into a small disaster for them. It completely screwed up their supply chain logistics for spare parts. SAP and IBM have been scrambling for months now to sort it out. BMW announced in August that the problems were supposed to be rectified by the end of September, but I think it's questionable whether that turned out to be correct. These problems could be one reason the recall was not announced sooner and very well may still be affecting BMW's ability to implement it.
Bret_T commented:
October 16, 2013, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
SAP
Slow All Production
raleedy commented:
October 16, 2013, 8:38 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
If the defective cam shafts have somehow impacted the power brakes, isn't it also likely that they are having some sort of impact on the HP output? I'm not a mechanical engineer (I am an industrial engineer), but I don't see how a defect in the cam shaft could have only this one isolated consequence.
You could learn a lot about this by reading the existing threads. Short version: brake assist runs on vacuum. Turbocharged intake offers no vacuum. A vacuum pump is the substitute. This one is mechanical and runs off the intake valve camshaft. Something in the camshaft design is preventing lubricating oil from passing from the camshaft into the vacuum pump.

I believe BMW knows how to fix this -- they have said as much. What they're not ready to do is a recall campaign for the affected cars that are on the road. That comes later.
Bret_T commented:
October 16, 2013, 9:09 pm

raleedy, thanks for the explanation. It's the best I've read so far. However, your assumption that I didn't read the entire thread is incorrect. I've been following it since the first post.
bmw142 commented:
October 24, 2013, 9:52 am

I had one of the effected vehicles and I just want to let people know what BMW has replaced. My situation is very different from most as I complained about this problem back in February when there were only a handful of complaints and BMW had no idea what was going on. I hope they finally have a fix for those with the car and the braking issue. This is what was replaced on a three month old car with 4600 miles on it when the problem appeared. A Vacuum pump and then another vacuum pump, Intake camshaft, Check Valve for Brake Booster, Vacuum Pipe, High Pressure pipe, Gasket ring, Decoupling element, and another Vacuum Pipe with Gasket. I can tell you that BMW was really bad in handling this situation, not only for me , but also others with the same problem that have contacted me. This was my fourth and last BMW, finally realizing they don't care about their customers after the sale. I had been dealing with them for 8 months on this issue, and finally handled it myself and sold the car.
Bret_T commented:
October 24, 2013, 10:19 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
I had been dealing with them for 8 months on this issue, and finally handled it myself and sold the car.
Was the problem actually resolved when you sold it?
jwalz1 commented:
October 24, 2013, 10:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RG_MN View Post
I did a European Delivery pick up of my Munich built 2014 320i on August 20. I picked it up at the dealer in Minnesota last week. My CA said it took a little longer than expected due to a work order at the VPC. She did not know specifically what was fixed, but I am somewhat assuming that it was the brake issue.
I had almost the exact same thing except on a 328i. My August build ED car behaved "strangely" a couple times during my ED trip and I posted about it earlier in the thread. The car spent 8 days at VDC, had a work order (no details although they did replace a wheel) and then shipped to Minny.

Had the car a week now and brakes seem to work perfectly. Not positive they did anything brake related, but cars affected were not to leave VDC until fixed.

It had been braking weakly on occasion at really low speeds on ED, it has been perfect so far and because of a construction project on my commute, have had lots of low speed stop and go.
jwalz1 commented:
October 24, 2013, 10:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
I had one of the effected vehicles and I just want to let people know what BMW has replaced. My situation is very different from most as I complained about this problem back in February when there were only a handful of complaints and BMW had no idea what was going on. I hope they finally have a fix for those with the car and the braking issue. This is what was replaced on a three month old car with 4600 miles on it when the problem appeared. A Vacuum pump and then another vacuum pump, Intake camshaft, Check Valve for Brake Booster, Vacuum Pipe, High Pressure pipe, Gasket ring, Decoupling element, and another Vacuum Pipe with Gasket. I can tell you that BMW was really bad in handling this situation, not only for me , but also others with the same problem that have contacted me. This was my fourth and last BMW, finally realizing they don't care about their customers after the sale. I had been dealing with them for 8 months on this issue, and finally handled it myself and sold the car.
I have a problem with the whole "BMW does not care about me" song. So they replaced a crap load of stuff trying to address the issue, but at the same time they don't care? Seems like they did a lot of work for not caring. Seems like they tried lots of things to find a fix.

It is never that the mechanic might possibly be inept. Or that it is a gremlin that is hard to find. It is BMW does not care about me dying in a horrible flaming crash. It just sounds too overly dramatic. I get that it is frustrating, but I don't understand how several attempts at a fix, especially if you can't replicate the problem in front of them, means they don't give a crap. I have had issues before where I tried several fixes only to be stumped. Did not mean I did not care.

What I experienced is close to what you had posted in another thread without the surging you describe. Just seems to lose power when braking at slow speeds and seems like it is going to glide past your intended stopping point. But at least in my experience, which goes back a month instead of February, they have identified the problem, required a fix, and I am at least led to believe the car has been addressed and I have not seen the problem in the 500 miles I have on it since VDC.

Sorry your experience was not good, but it sounds like the dealer did what they could think of and BMW has come up with a recall. If I was in your shoes I would have tried to lemon the car rather than selling it.

If mine has actually been "fixed" it seems to work just fine. Knock on wood.
bmw142 commented:
October 24, 2013, 11:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
I have a problem with the whole "BMW does not care about me" song. So they replaced a crap load of stuff trying to address the issue, but at the same time they don't care? Seems like they did a lot of work for not caring. Seems like they tried lots of things to find a fix.

It is never that the mechanic might possibly be inept. Or that it is a gremlin that is hard to find. It is BMW does not care about me dying in a horrible flaming crash. It just sounds too overly dramatic. I get that it is frustrating, but I don't understand how several attempts at a fix, especially if you can't replicate the problem in front of them, means they don't give a crap. I have had issues before where I tried several fixes only to be stumped. Did not mean I did not care.

And the other poster is right, if you "handled it" yourself by selling the car with a known defect that was not fixed and is a safety issue, I sure hope you disclosed that honestly to the new owner, or do you not care about them? It would seem to be pretty tough to sell a used car with a brake related safety issue the manufacturer can't fix if you disclose it to the potential buyer.

So I assume that after making over 20 phone calls and 10 emails to the Customer CARE rep at BMWNA, and never getting a return call or email, by the person handling your case, to find out whats happening with your car thats been in the shop over 2 months. BMW CARES. LOL.

According to BMW the car was fixed and the dealer the car was traded in at was well aware of the problems.

Just do some searching on the web and read the problems or I should say lack of response, that customers have had with BMWNA customer care and that should tell you something.

AS far as a mechanic being inept, this whole episode was handled by a BMW technician, not a mechanic at the dealership.
jwalz1 commented:
October 24, 2013, 1:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
So I assume that after making over 20 phone calls and 10 emails to the Customer CARE rep at BMWNA, and never getting a return call or email, by the person handling your case, to find out whats happening with your car thats been in the shop over 2 months. BMW CARES. LOL.

.
Well I get you on the customer service line and the website. Both are horrible at customer service, but you have a better chance working through the dealership and the regional rep to get problems handled. I worked at dealers as a teen, and pretty much every manufacturer has a roving rep that will handle problems better than just about anyone else.

Not everybody is aware of that, but if you have a problem that can't be solved, ask the service desk for the reps contact info. Usually it is their specific job to solve customer problems the dealers can't and maintain the brand image.

Calling the lowly paid person with a book of scripts to talk through does not help much. I can't find any company that gets back to an email within a month.

But I still can't blame either the dealer or the company given all of the repeated steps to try to fix it. Any brand has cars walk into dealerships that they can't figure out what the problem is. Happened to me with a Subaru. It sucks but it happens.
imua1 commented:
October 24, 2013, 1:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
I had one of the effected vehicles and I just want to let people know what BMW has replaced. My situation is very different from most as I complained about this problem back in February when there were only a handful of complaints and BMW had no idea what was going on. I hope they finally have a fix for those with the car and the braking issue. This is what was replaced on a three month old car with 4600 miles on it when the problem appeared. A Vacuum pump and then another vacuum pump, Intake camshaft, Check Valve for Brake Booster, Vacuum Pipe, High Pressure pipe, Gasket ring, Decoupling element, and another Vacuum Pipe with Gasket. I can tell you that BMW was really bad in handling this situation, not only for me , but also others with the same problem that have contacted me. This was my fourth and last BMW, finally realizing they don't care about their customers after the sale. I had been dealing with them for 8 months on this issue, and finally handled it myself and sold the car.
Did dealer provide you a loaner and/or a rental for all the time the car was in the shop? Was the problem finally fixed when you sold it?
raleedy commented:
October 24, 2013, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
raleedy, thanks for the explanation. It's the best I've read so far. However, your assumption that I didn't read the entire thread is incorrect. I've been following it since the first post.
I didn't mean to be critical. There have been other threads on the other boards, including those for F10, F20 and E84, and I have picked up some possibly helpful info from them.
Capobranco commented:
October 24, 2013, 3:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
I had one of the effected vehicles and I just want to let people know what BMW has replaced. My situation is very different from most as I complained about this problem back in February when there were only a handful of complaints and BMW had no idea what was going on. I hope they finally have a fix for those with the car and the braking issue. This is what was replaced on a three month old car with 4600 miles on it when the problem appeared. A Vacuum pump and then another vacuum pump, Intake camshaft, Check Valve for Brake Booster, Vacuum Pipe, High Pressure pipe, Gasket ring, Decoupling element, and another Vacuum Pipe with Gasket. I can tell you that BMW was really bad in handling this situation, not only for me , but also others with the same problem that have contacted me. This was my fourth and last BMW, finally realizing they don't care about their customers after the sale. I had been dealing with them for 8 months on this issue, and finally handled it myself and sold the car.
Wow - very sad - after 2 months of "solutions" BMW should have come back to you and said - we are indeed sorry - frustrating problems do occasionally happen but no BMW customer should have to go through such a frustrating sequence of events - we appreciate you have purchased four BMWs in the past - here's the key to a new BMW. If they had - you would probably be a BMW customer for life - you are a BMW missed opportunity. I have owned eight BMWs and I know BMWNA can be frustrating. However, I have found that the key to good outcomes is to claw your way pass the "palace guards" and get to a level where a manager has the authority, and recognizes the need, to make decisions that occasionally may sacrifice short term profit in order to advance long term brand and customer retention equity.
bmw142 commented:
October 24, 2013, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Wow - very sad - after 2 months of "solutions" BMW should have come back to you and said - we are indeed sorry - frustrating problems do occasionally happen but no BMW customer should have to go through such a frustrating sequence of events - we appreciate you have purchased four BMWs in the past - here's the key to a new BMW. If they had - you would probably be a BMW customer for life - you are a BMW missed opportunity. I have owned eight BMWs and I know BMWNA can be frustrating. However, I have found that the key to good outcomes is to claw your way pass the "palace guards" and get to a level where a manager has the authority, and recognizes the need, to make decisions that occasionally may sacrifice short term profit in order to advance long term brand and customer retention equity.
The Sales and service manager had actually also gotten no where with Customer service and went straight to the Regional Sales Manager. I was told they would be doing a trade assist to get me out of the vehicle and originally it was going to be at no or very little cost to me. About two weeks ago everything was on schedule and they were looking for a car, to trade. Then out of the blue, the sales manager called on monday and told me all the paperwork had been approved but BMW wanted my car and 7000.00. Wasn't going to happen. So I had purchased a 45,000 dollar car, owned it for 10 months, only drove it for a little over 7 months, the rest of the time it was in the shop, and then be told to come up with another 7 grand. I asked numerous times for BMW to at least make a few payments on the car for the time I did not actually have the car, and that never happened. To top it off, that 45,000 dollar car , was according to the dealer only worth 28,000 on trade, BMW was going to kick in a grand total of 5000 and the rest was on me. I would have been crazy to do that deal. I was always told that BMW was going to make good, never happened.
mr_clueless commented:
October 24, 2013, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
To top it off, that 45,000 dollar car , was according to the dealer only worth 28,000 on trade
Did you check what KBB says? Was 45K the drive off price (with taxes, etc.). Still that sounds like a big hit for 10 months of ownership.

Did you look into lemon laws for your state?
bmw142 commented:
October 24, 2013, 8:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Did you check what KBB says? Was 45K the drive off price (with taxes, etc.). Still that sounds like a big hit for 10 months of ownership.
It was with taxes and all, and that would be on a 2013 again, where they would add 2000 cash for the incentive on 2013. Bottom line I would have added 7 grand out of pocket. KBB and edmunds were higher, but these are numbers the dealer and BMW came up with.
PK2348 commented:
October 24, 2013, 8:59 pm

You should be able to lemon it. I don't understand why you have not done it yet? From what i have heard, they don't like their cars lemoned and will be much easier to come to an agreement with?
Bret_T commented:
October 24, 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
I would have been crazy to do that deal. I was always told that BMW was going to make good, never happened.
You would have been crazy to do that. After going through all that, I can definitely understand why you believe BMW doesn't care about its customers.
ard commented:
October 24, 2013, 9:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
I have a problem with the whole "BMW does not care about me" song. So they replaced a crap load of stuff trying to address the issue, but at the same time they don't care? Seems like they did a lot of work for not caring. Seems like they tried lots of things to find a fix.

It is never that the mechanic might possibly be inept. Or that it is a gremlin that is hard to find. It is BMW does not care about me dying in a horrible flaming crash. It just sounds too overly dramatic. I get that it is frustrating, but I don't understand how several attempts at a fix, especially if you can't replicate the problem in front of them, means they don't give a crap. I have had issues before where I tried several fixes only to be stumped. Did not mean I did not care.

What I experienced is close to what you had posted in another thread without the surging you describe. Just seems to lose power when braking at slow speeds and seems like it is going to glide past your intended stopping point. But at least in my experience, which goes back a month instead of February, they have identified the problem, required a fix, and I am at least led to believe the car has been addressed and I have not seen the problem in the 500 miles I have on it since VDC.

Sorry your experience was not good, but it sounds like the dealer did what they could think of and BMW has come up with a recall. If I was in your shoes I would have tried to lemon the car rather than selling it.

If mine has actually been "fixed" it seems to work just fine. Knock on wood.

This


Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
So I assume that after making over 20 phone calls and 10 emails to the Customer CARE rep at BMWNA, and never getting a return call or email, by the person handling your case, to find out whats happening with your car thats been in the shop over 2 months. BMW CARES. LOL.

According to BMW the car was fixed and the dealer the car was traded in at was well aware of the problems.

Just do some searching on the web and read the problems or I should say lack of response, that customers have had with BMWNA customer care and that should tell you something.

AS far as a mechanic being inept, this whole episode was handled by a BMW technician, not a mechanic at the dealership.

Some people actually cannot figure out how to lemon a car!

They THINK they can send emails and call people and BMW (or any mfg) will call them back and say "oh, let us help you".

It is an adversarial situation and some people just cannot figure it out and execute it!

Simple as that.


My 2010 was a prototype for the 'diesel SCR cat emissions recall in 2011. I lemoned it. I wound up 'lossing'about 3-4k and put 32,000 miles on the car.

Whats that saying? "You dont get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate".
tturedraider commented:
October 24, 2013, 9:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw142 View Post
It was with taxes and all, and that would be on a 2013 again, where they would add 2000 cash for the incentive on 2013. Bottom line I would have added 7 grand out of pocket. KBB and edmunds were higher, but these are numbers the dealer and BMW came up with.
Why did you not lemon the car???
bmw142 commented:
October 26, 2013, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
This





Some people actually cannot figure out how to lemon a car!

They THINK they can send emails and call people and BMW (or any mfg) will call them back and say "oh, let us help you".

It is an adversarial situation and some people just cannot figure it out and execute it!

Simple as that.


My 2010 was a prototype for the 'diesel SCR cat emissions recall in 2011. I lemoned it. I wound up 'lossing'about 3-4k and put 32,000 miles on the car.

Whats that saying? "You dont get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate".
Unfortunately I live in a state, Illinois which has one of the weakest Lemon Laws. I was going to Lemon Law the vehicle, but that would have taken months in Illinois and no guarantee that I would get the original price back. I weighed in the fact that the longer I keep the car and add miles the lower the value would be, and since the problem was fixed and I found a dealer that actually gave me a much better trade in value than the BMW dealership, I took it.

The facts is that most manufacturers stand by their product, and usually try to resolve the problem. A friend of mine who is in the car business, said that had this been a VW, Hyundai , Lexus, and a few others, they would have replaced the vehicle. He has seen VW replace cars with a lot less problems. To me it's a question if they stand behind the product, or not.

A brand new car should not need a new camshaft, which basically requires a top down disassembly of the engine. I have owned over 20 vehicles and never had that happen, some with over 200,000 miles on them.
greywolf328i commented:
October 26, 2013, 1:22 pm

See the Toyota Tundra recall a few years back. Camshafts physically broke in them and it took quite some time before the recall was sent out.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
L84TENS commented:
October 29, 2013, 6:36 pm

Does anyone know if this recall includes the engine in the 2014 328 DIESEL? or does it only impact gas engines? And if diesels are not affected, would their delivery be delayed? Mine is and I can't get a straight answer from my dealer.
tturedraider commented:
October 29, 2013, 6:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L84TENS View Post
Does anyone know if this recall includes the engine in the 2014 328 DIESEL? or does it only impact gas engines? And if diesels are not affected, would their delivery be delayed? Mine is and I can't get a straight answer from my dealer.
It only affects vehicles with the four cylinder N20/N26 gasoline motor.
Tedj101 commented:
October 29, 2013, 7:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by L84TENS View Post
Does anyone know if this recall includes the engine in the 2014 328 DIESEL? or does it only impact gas engines? And if diesels are not affected, would their delivery be delayed? Mine is and I can't get a straight answer from my dealer.
My CA told me that the Diesel is not included. In any event, my 328d was not delayed. The boat docked on Wednesday morning, the car arrived at my dealership about noon on Friday and I brought it home on Saturday morning...

If yours is delayed, I think the reason is something else...
L84TENS commented:
October 30, 2013, 3:20 pm

Thanks for the replies. Car has been sitting at the port since 10/10. Not sure why it isn't being released.
pointandgo commented:
October 30, 2013, 3:59 pm

This recall finally showed up on NHTSA's website:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/...HT5C5SK60SHPDE

If this link doesn't work, go to Safercar.gov "recalls."

I note a "delivery stop" notice in the BMW posted documents...as BMW is prohibited from selling any cars subject to recall that have not been "remedied." Another comment indicates: "...repair solution (regarding intake camshaft oil plug) may not be available before December."
bmw142 commented:
October 30, 2013, 8:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
This recall finally showed up on NHTSA's website:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/...HT5C5SK60SHPDE

If this link doesn't work, go to Safercar.gov "recalls."

I note a "delivery stop" notice in the BMW posted documents...as BMW is prohibited from selling any cars subject to recall that have not been "remedied." Another comment indicates: "...repair solution (regarding intake camshaft oil plug) may not be available before December."
Looks like there are 76,000 cars that may be affected in the USA according to the documents on the NHTSA website
Edb5020 commented:
November 6, 2013, 10:27 am

So I called my SA at the dealership for regular routine service, I mentioned the recall and she honestly had no idea and said it would have to be looked up. My car is an October 2012 build date F30 328i X-Drive. Is my car affected? If so is there a fix in place yet?
tim330i commented:
November 6, 2013, 10:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edb5020 View Post
So I called my SA at the dealership for regular routine service, I mentioned the recall and she honestly had no idea and said it would have to be looked up. My car is an October 2012 build date F30 328i X-Drive. Is my car affected? If so is there a fix in place yet?
Did you have the SA look it up? They have your VIN, they should be able to tell you. For the repair it is outlined in the first post -

Quote:
Solution and Repair
A repair solution for vehicles already on the road is under development and not available at this time. Existing owners will be notified of the recall in November by letter and again in December by letter when parts are available. Wait to receive your notification letter before contacting your dealership for service. The repair letter will be sent when the dealership has the necessary parts, tools and procedures to preform the repair.
gero22 commented:
November 17, 2013, 12:00 am

Guys, they said they will send recall notices/letters starting in november? Did anyone receive any letter so far?
HugH commented:
November 17, 2013, 2:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
Guys, they said they will send recall notices/letters starting in november? Did anyone receive any letter so far?
Recall information by VIN # is available at the BME USA site… http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...er/recall.aspx
gero22 commented:
November 17, 2013, 3:06 pm

Thanks HugH. I did check on this website, and it says there is no recall for my car.
I have noticed the same braking problem twice in the last week i.e. pedal become hard, really slow response at a slow speed. I didn't know about this recall until I googled last night.

Maybe this website is not kept up to date? I wonder if anyone has been successful in finding recall of their car through this website link?
Anyone got those november notices/letters that were supposed to be sent out?
mr_clueless commented:
November 17, 2013, 4:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
Thanks HugH. I did check on this website, and it says there is no recall for my car.
I have noticed the same braking problem twice in the last week i.e. pedal become hard, really slow response at a slow speed. I didn't know about this recall until I googled last night.

Maybe this website is not kept up to date? I wonder if anyone has been successful in finding recall of their car through this website link?
Anyone got those november notices/letters that were supposed to be sent out?
If I was experiencing the problem like you are I would report it to the NHSTA and visit the dealer immediately. Of course, you'll have to do whatever they offer...they may or may not have parts for it.
raleedy commented:
November 17, 2013, 5:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
If I was experiencing the problem like you are I would report it to the NHSTA and visit the dealer immediately. Of course, you'll have to do whatever they offer...they may or may not have parts for it.
+1. Not sure I would be comfortable relying on the website at this stage -- they may not yet have identified all the specific cars affected.
PK2348 commented:
November 17, 2013, 5:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
+1. Not sure I would be comfortable relying on the website at this stage -- they may not yet have identified all the specific cars affected.
+1, it happened on my car as well, but the website tells me there are no recalls on my vin
INTREPID commented:
November 17, 2013, 6:43 pm

FYI for those who don't know BMW engine model numbers off the top of their head - Recall applies to:

The N20 and N26 which are the turbocharged straight-4 engine. The Straight-6 Turbo (N55) is apparently not affected.
gero22 commented:
November 17, 2013, 7:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
+1, it happened on my car as well, but the website tells me there are no recalls on my vin
Hey PK2348, what did you do? Did you get it checked up at a dealership? Did you receive a letter?
I'm planning on taking to the dealer this week, but not sure what they will be able to do so if my car is not listed as "recalled" yet...
PK2348 commented:
November 17, 2013, 10:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
Hey PK2348, what did you do? Did you get it checked up at a dealership? Did you receive a letter?
I'm planning on taking to the dealer this week, but not sure what they will be able to do so if my car is not listed as "recalled" yet...
i haven't done anything yet. It happened once this July, naturally dealer ignored it at first. As far as i understand, as of now nothing can be done. When they get parts and instruction on the fix in December i will leave my car with the dealer demanding it gets fixed, regardless if it's under recall or not.
gero22 commented:
November 18, 2013, 10:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
i haven't done anything yet. It happened once this July, naturally dealer ignored it at first. As far as i understand, as of now nothing can be done. When they get parts and instruction on the fix in December i will leave my car with the dealer demanding it gets fixed, regardless if it's under recall or not.
unfortunately, if the car is not under recall, the dealer won't be able to make any repairs to it that are under the warranty. i think you will have a tough time getting it repaired in that scenario. might have to pay out of pocket.
Bret_T commented:
November 18, 2013, 10:20 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
i think you will have a tough time getting it repaired in that scenario. might have to pay out of pocket.
Why would he have to pay out of pocket? Since they would claim that it's not necessary, wouldn't they just refuse to do the repair?
gero22 commented:
November 18, 2013, 10:27 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
Why would he have to pay out of pocket? Since they would claim that it's not necessary, wouldn't they just refuse to do the repair?
In that case, yeah.

I was talking about the scenario in which you really want to get it repaired (since its so unsafe to drive a car with brake problems).
raleedy commented:
November 18, 2013, 12:00 pm

Some of you seem to be talking about an intermittent problem. As I understand the brake assist issue, it involves the failure of a vacuum pump as a result of oil starvation. Someone please explain to me how that can intermit.
bmw142 commented:
November 18, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
Thanks HugH. I did check on this website, and it says there is no recall for my car.
I have noticed the same braking problem twice in the last week i.e. pedal become hard, really slow response at a slow speed. I didn't know about this recall until I googled last night.

Maybe this website is not kept up to date? I wonder if anyone has been successful in finding recall of their car through this website link?
Anyone got those november notices/letters that were supposed to be sent out?
File a report with the NHTSA
gero22 commented:
November 18, 2013, 12:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
Some of you seem to be talking about an intermittent problem. As I understand the brake assist issue, it involves the failure of a vacuum pump as a result of oil starvation. Someone please explain to me how that can intermit.
Actually, how many people have experienced a complete failure of the vacuum pump?

Most of the reports I read here and the NHTSA website sound like they were intermittent. I could be wrong though.
ard commented:
November 18, 2013, 12:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
Some of you seem to be talking about an intermittent problem. As I understand the brake assist issue, it involves the failure of a vacuum pump as a result of oil starvation. Someone please explain to me how that can intermit.
Probably because when they say "*IT* happened to me" they are incorrect in their assumption that the IT is actually the subject of the recall.
jygesq commented:
November 18, 2013, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
Thanks HugH. I did check on this website, and it says there is no recall for my car.
I have noticed the same braking problem twice in the last week i.e. pedal become hard, really slow response at a slow speed. I didn't know about this recall until I googled last night.

Maybe this website is not kept up to date? I wonder if anyone has been successful in finding recall of their car through this website link?
Anyone got those november notices/letters that were supposed to be sent out?
even without recall any brake problem should be checked out IMMEDIATELY !! Your car sahould still be under 4 year/50 warranty. Recall not withstanding .
PK2348 commented:
November 18, 2013, 4:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
unfortunately, if the car is not under recall, the dealer won't be able to make any repairs to it that are under the warranty. i think you will have a tough time getting it repaired in that scenario. might have to pay out of pocket.
i think you're missing my point, the car is under warranty, the brakes failed, i don't give a flying you know what if my VIN is part of the recall list or not. I hate turning into an asshole to get this done, but these are my brakes, and there is still 18 months left on the lease
m3kidd commented:
November 28, 2013, 9:24 am

Got my recall notice yesterday. It said they don't have sufficient parts to complete the repair but should have them by January.
MotoWPK commented:
November 29, 2013, 5:07 pm

Received our recall today ('13 328ix - 10/12 build) and, as noted by others, it indicates parts to effect the recall are not currently available but are expected in 1/14.

The letter states;

"Description Of Repair

The power assist braking system will be inspected and, if necessary, the sealing cap will be secured, which will ensure the brake vacuum pump is lubricated properly."

Is that all there is to this - securing a sealing cap? Is it present but loose in some cases? And, if the pump has not been properly lubricated previously, doesn't the pump need to be replaced as a result of damage that would have occurred due to operating without proper lubrication?
HugH commented:
December 2, 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jygesq View Post
even without recall any brake problem should be checked out IMMEDIATELY !! Your car sahould still be under 4 year/50 warranty. Recall not withstanding .
I agree with you and that's exactly what I did within the first week of ownership. Problem is that it doesn't happen all the time. Dealership was not able to replicate and wanted to keep my car for an unspecified number of days. I have taken the car to a large open car parking lot at a nearby church and have not been able to replicate the problem either.
I declined.

It only happens at very slow speeds and now I have e recall notice. We'll see what happens next.
pointandgo commented:
December 2, 2013, 2:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
Recall information by VIN # is available at the BME USA site… http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...er/recall.aspx
I entered my VIN number as instructed and it came back as "no recall." I received my recall notice in the mail last Friday.
HugH commented:
December 2, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I entered my VIN number as instructed and it came back as "no recall." I received my recall notice in the mail last Friday.
It goes to show you, USPS is still doing their job in spite of Congress efforts to privatize it.
shazi00 commented:
December 3, 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I entered my VIN number as instructed and it came back as "no recall." I received my recall notice in the mail last Friday.
Wtf. I was happy when I put my VIN in and it said no recall. Keeping my fingers crossed. Had no issues with the car so far.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
pointandgo commented:
December 3, 2013, 10:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazi00 View Post
Wtf. I was happy when I put my VIN in and it said no recall. Keeping my fingers crossed. Had no issues with the car so far.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I "triple checked" it entering the last 7 digits of the VIN multiple times. Each time it came up with NO RECALL. The site is useless as I stare at the recall papers in front of me. I have half a mind to call BMW NA about their dysfunctional recall site.

In the meantime, I'm putting off long trips with the car...an 8-hr. trip to Mammoth Lakes (mountain driving - 10,000' elevation). I'm not able to utilize the car as I wish until January due to safety concerns. Perhaps I should ask for a lease payment credit.
xing68 commented:
December 4, 2013, 12:33 pm

I ordered my car on 10/18, and got it 11/27, it should not have this problem, right?
HugH commented:
December 4, 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by xing68 View Post
I ordered my car on 10/18, and got it 11/27, it should not have this problem, right?
I got my car on 12/31 and had brake problems from the very first time after picking it up from the dealer. I must say, never had any problems at speed. Always while coming to a stop in parking lots or traffic lights, but not all the time.
raleedy commented:
December 4, 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by xing68 View Post
I ordered my car on 10/18, and got it 11/27, it should not have this problem, right?
Right. BMW put a delivery hold on potentially affected cars in the U.S. on 9/19/13. Any new car delivered after that, if it has this specific problem, would have been delivered in violation of that restriction.
pointandgo commented:
December 4, 2013, 3:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by xing68 View Post
I ordered my car on 10/18, and got it 11/27, it should not have this problem, right?
Since BMW would be prohibited from selling a car subject to recall you're probably good to go. They certainly know which VIN numbers must be held back.
tturedraider commented:
December 4, 2013, 4:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gero22 View Post
unfortunately, if the car is not under recall, the dealer won't be able to make any repairs to it that are under the warranty. i think you will have a tough time getting it repaired in that scenario. might have to pay out of pocket.
OK, this is 100% wrong. A manufacturing defect is covered under warranty whether or not there is a recall.
raleedy commented:
December 4, 2013, 6:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Since BMW would be prohibited from selling a car subject to recall you're probably good to go. They certainly know which VIN numbers must be held back.
This isn't quite right -- probably doesn't matter much, though. BMW has been and is free to sell these cars to its dealers. It's the dealers that have to hold them. No one has put any restraints on BMW that I know of, and the restraints on dealers came from BMW itself. And if they know by VIN which cars are actually defective, they are not letting on. The dealer hold that was imposed covered all N20/N26 cars manufactured during specified time frames, even though only a fraction of them had the problematic camshaft.
tturedraider commented:
December 5, 2013, 6:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
This isn't quite right -- probably doesn't matter much, though. BMW has been and is free to sell these cars to its dealers. It's the dealers that have to hold them. No one has put any restraints on BMW that I know of, and the restraints on dealers came from BMW itself. And if they know by VIN which cars are actually defective, they are not letting on. The dealer hold that was imposed covered all N20/N26 cars manufactured during specified time frames, even though only a fraction of them had the problematic camshaft.
Actually the hold also applied to cars at the VPCs, not to be released to dealers until repaired. And, according to 'fester CAs, cars affected were identified pretty quickly and the hold affected relatively few cars in inventory.
chuowc commented:
December 5, 2013, 3:02 pm

I have received a recall letter from BMWUSA last week about this finally, will bring it in for service tomorrow. For the pass few days, I can feel the brake is getting harder to press, it's worse this morning. I can't wait to get this repaired.

It's weird that you can't find any recall from http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...er/recall.aspx
imua1 commented:
December 5, 2013, 3:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuowc View Post
I have received a recall letter from BMWUSA last week about this finally, will bring it in for service tomorrow. For the pass few days, I can feel the brake is getting harder to press, it's worse this morning. I can't wait to get this repaired.

It's weird that you can't find any recall from http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...er/recall.aspx
=========

Does your dealer have the parts to fix it? If not will your dealer give you a compable loaner? Many posts on the X1 site share the vacuum pump failure to be sudden all at once. Your the first post that shared the loss of boost was gradual.
chuowc commented:
December 5, 2013, 4:23 pm

The letter indicates that the parts are limited but encouraged owner to schedule the repair as early as possible. Better get it checked whether they have the part or not, I'm not confident with the brake so far, I still need to haul 2 kids with it.
imua1 commented:
December 5, 2013, 8:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuowc View Post
The letter indicates that the parts are limited but encouraged owner to schedule the repair as early as possible. Better get it checked whether they have the part or not, I'm not confident with the brake so far, I still need to haul 2 kids with it.
The letter we got said parts not availibe to January and we will get another letter telling us to schedule. I wonder how does BMW decide who gets the safety recall done first?
dima123 commented:
January 6, 2014, 12:52 pm

I have a 2012 528xi that was produced on 2/27/2012. This car in the past year was in the shop numerous times with braking issues. Every single time they said; we can't replicate the problem or don't see anything wrong with the car. The car pedal needed to be slammed to stop the car even at slow speeds; with time it got worse. Back on 11/15/13; I was driving and the brakes gave out completely. So instead of crashing into the car in front of me I jumped the curb to slow down the car ( from about 30 mph); which broke or bent my axle. BMW dealer told me my vin is not included in this recall; even though the car has been in the shop numerous times with the same issue. BMW engineers were called in to investigate the damage on 12/3/13 and a report was supposed to be released in 3 weeks. Now its already 1/6/14. No one from BMW corporate has called me back or told me anything. I've left numerous messages and spoke to operators who are completely useless and rude. I've been driving a damn Hyundai rental for almost 2 months now; while paying the lease for my BMW. No one is helping me; can you guys maybe hint me into the right direction. This is getting out of hand; BMW doesn't want to take liability on themselves for a faulty brake system and have been avoiding me. thanks!!!
JohnL345 commented:
January 6, 2014, 1:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dima123 View Post
I have a 2012 528xi that was produced on 2/27/2012. This car in the past year was in the shop numerous times with braking issues. Every single time they said; we can't replicate the problem or don't see anything wrong with the car. The car pedal needed to be slammed to stop the car even at slow speeds; with time it got worse. Back on 11/15/13; I was driving and the brakes gave out completely. So instead of crashing into the car in front of me I jumped the curb to slow down the car ( from about 30 mph); which broke or bent my axle. BMW dealer told me my vin is not included in this recall; even though the car has been in the shop numerous times with the same issue. BMW engineers were called in to investigate the damage on 12/3/13 and a report was supposed to be released in 3 weeks. Now its already 1/6/14. No one from BMW corporate has called me back or told me anything. I've left numerous messages and spoke to operators who are completely useless and rude. I've been driving a damn Hyundai rental for almost 2 months now; while paying the lease for my BMW. No one is helping me; can you guys maybe hint me into the right direction. This is getting out of hand; BMW doesn't want to take liability on themselves for a faulty brake system and have been avoiding me. thanks!!!
I would get in touch with the state attorney general's consumer protection people--someone responsible for problems in the automotive area.
Call and find the right person there.
Send that person a detailed letter and copy the Regional Manager for BMW (for the region covering New York).

If you have an attorney, copy him or her.
tturedraider commented:
January 6, 2014, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL345 View Post
I would get in touch with the state attorney general's consumer protection people--someone responsible for problems in the automotive area.
Call and find the right person there.
Send that person a detailed letter and copy the Regional Manager for BMW (for the region covering New York).

If you have an attorney, copy him or her.
^ this. I would say you're at the point you need to consult an attorney. You likely have a lemon case , at least, and possibly a product liability claim.
JohnL345 commented:
January 6, 2014, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
^ this. I would say you're at the point you need to consult an attorney. You likely have a lemon case , at least, and possibly a product liability claim.
I would carefully reconstruct all the actions you took and the response or lack of response. Note specific people you contacted and dates as best you can.

Keep e-mails etc.

My guess is BMW of North America via the Regional Manager's office will initiate some action toward some sort of resolution. Also copy the Dealer Principle (not the manager--the owner of the dealership).
pointandgo commented:
January 6, 2014, 4:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dima123 View Post
I have a 2012 528xi that was produced on 2/27/2012. This car in the past year was in the shop numerous times with braking issues. Every single time they said; we can't replicate the problem or don't see anything wrong with the car. The car pedal needed to be slammed to stop the car even at slow speeds; with time it got worse. Back on 11/15/13; I was driving and the brakes gave out completely. So instead of crashing into the car in front of me I jumped the curb to slow down the car ( from about 30 mph); which broke or bent my axle. BMW dealer told me my vin is not included in this recall; even though the car has been in the shop numerous times with the same issue. BMW engineers were called in to investigate the damage on 12/3/13 and a report was supposed to be released in 3 weeks. Now its already 1/6/14. No one from BMW corporate has called me back or told me anything. I've left numerous messages and spoke to operators who are completely useless and rude. I've been driving a damn Hyundai rental for almost 2 months now; while paying the lease for my BMW. No one is helping me; can you guys maybe hint me into the right direction. This is getting out of hand; BMW doesn't want to take liability on themselves for a faulty brake system and have been avoiding me. thanks!!!
From what we've heard about owner's complaints about braking issues that prompted the current 3-series recall, the brake failure was also intermittent and perhaps hard to diagnose initially.

Nevertheless, NHTSA received very few brake failure complaints to their database (safercar.gov) before initiating a recall with BMW. NHTSA would consider brake problems as a high priority.

By all means report your issue to NHTSA's complaint database. It won't take many such reports to get NHTSA's attention, and you can be sure that BMW NA also monitors these complaints on NHTSA's database.
dscabra commented:
January 6, 2014, 8:34 pm

Does anyone know exactly what the repair entails? The letter says it's about a two-hour job. It describes the repair as, "The power assist braking system will be inspected and, if necessary, the sealing cap will be secured, which will ensure the brake vacuum pump is lubricated properly." I got my letter about a week ago and will schedule the repair when my next service is due in about 2500 miles.
HugH commented:
January 6, 2014, 9:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
Does anyone know exactly what the repair entails? The letter says it's about a two-hour job. It describes the repair as, "The power assist braking system will be inspected and, if necessary, the sealing cap will be secured, which will ensure the brake vacuum pump is lubricated properly." I got my letter about a week ago and will schedule the repair when my next service is due in about 2500 miles.
I went to my dealer and was told they will be getting the parts in about two months from now…
pointandgo commented:
January 6, 2014, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
I went to my dealer and was told they will be getting the parts in about two months from now…
What! BMW told NHTSA that parts would be available this month (and their recall letter said the same). I doubt your dealer is giving accurate information.
nightmareuki commented:
January 6, 2014, 10:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
I went to my dealer and was told they will be getting the parts in about two months from now…
i would tell them to give me a 335 to drive in the meantime. No rental BS or they take the car Back for a full refund
pointandgo commented:
January 6, 2014, 10:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmareuki View Post
i would tell them to give me a 335 to drive in the meantime. No rental BS or they take the car Back for a full refund
Right on! Why drive around in a car that can lose its brakes at any moment...for three months if that's what the dealer is saying.
IceBimmer commented:
January 7, 2014, 12:02 am

Do we have any idea how prevalent these brake failures are?
Cjs2002 commented:
January 25, 2014, 4:42 pm

I also received the letter with part availability listed as January. On Monday, 1/20, I called my dealership to find out if it was going to happen this month. The phone rep checked my VIN and their records and told me that they had parts and were doing repairs. He followed up by telling me that he could schedule my car for Friday, 1/24.

I take it there for the 7:00 appointment only to get a nasty surprise. The service advisor checks me in, looks over the notes and says, "there's no brake recall". I told him that I have the letter from BMW telling me about the recall.

He points at his print out and said, "if it not listed here, you don't have a recall. I'm sorry but you should have called me and not the scheduler. That way you wouldn't have wasted your time"

I can't believe the audacity of the statement. Bill Jacobs BMW wasted my time, I didn't waste my time. If their 'scheduler' is incapable of understanding their own job then I'm expected to cover for them by calling a CA that has knowledge?


We're not taking in
nightmareuki commented:
January 26, 2014, 12:46 pm

Man, there seem to be a lot of dropped balls by BMW dealers lately. I always hate going to the bmw dealer even having warranty. I've been to other brands and was pleasantly surprised.
pointandgo commented:
January 26, 2014, 6:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjs2002 View Post
I also received the letter with part availability listed as January. On Monday, 1/20, I called my dealership to find out if it was going to happen this month. The phone rep checked my VIN and their records and told me that they had parts and were doing repairs. He followed up by telling me that he could schedule my car for Friday, 1/24.

I take it there for the 7:00 appointment only to get a nasty surprise. The service advisor checks me in, looks over the notes and says, "there's no brake recall". I told him that I have the letter from BMW telling me about the recall.

He points at his print out and said, "if it not listed here, you don't have a recall. I'm sorry but you should have called me and not the scheduler. That way you wouldn't have wasted your time"

I can't believe the audacity of the statement. Bill Jacobs BMW wasted my time, I didn't waste my time. If their 'scheduler' is incapable of understanding their own job then I'm expected to cover for them by calling a CA that has knowledge?


We're not taking in
This would seem to justify a call to BMW NA to clear up why you: 1.) received a recall notification from BMW NA, 2.) had the dealer confirm it (regardless of who it was at the dealership).

NHTSA would expect BMW NA's recall notifications to consumers to be accurate and timely.

I'd raise hell with BMW NA.
PinkLambo commented:
January 26, 2014, 7:47 pm

I've a 2012 x1 and I got a recall notice in the mail yesterday but it said it's about the standards of emissions Canada, nothing about power braking. Are there two recalls?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
bmw142 commented:
January 27, 2014, 2:42 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dima123 View Post
I have a 2012 528xi that was produced on 2/27/2012. This car in the past year was in the shop numerous times with braking issues. Every single time they said; we can't replicate the problem or don't see anything wrong with the car. The car pedal needed to be slammed to stop the car even at slow speeds; with time it got worse. Back on 11/15/13; I was driving and the brakes gave out completely. So instead of crashing into the car in front of me I jumped the curb to slow down the car ( from about 30 mph); which broke or bent my axle. BMW dealer told me my vin is not included in this recall; even though the car has been in the shop numerous times with the same issue. BMW engineers were called in to investigate the damage on 12/3/13 and a report was supposed to be released in 3 weeks. Now its already 1/6/14. No one from BMW corporate has called me back or told me anything. I've left numerous messages and spoke to operators who are completely useless and rude. I've been driving a damn Hyundai rental for almost 2 months now; while paying the lease for my BMW. No one is helping me; can you guys maybe hint me into the right direction. This is getting out of hand; BMW doesn't want to take liability on themselves for a faulty brake system and have been avoiding me. thanks!!!
Unfortunately BMW has some really bad customer service. After all I went through with the braking issue, I sent an email to 6 of the execs at BMWNA and surprisingly heard back from them, giving me the sob story on how sorry they were and they were changing the way BMWNA customer service handles phone calls and problems with their vehicle. I left the brand after being a lifelong BMW owner, never looking back. There are plenty of other automobiles that do exactly the same thing a BMW does, and thats getting you from point A to point B. Ultimate Driving machine is all hype, nothing but a marketing slogan. There are plenty of other places to spend your 50,000 and get customer service.
Good Luck
z3RIFFRAFF commented:
January 28, 2014, 11:30 am

Does this help? http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...3V454-2186.pdf

I'm going to print this out and take it to the dealer with me when I drop my car off for service. I did not get a recall letter, but I should get one at some point.

This doesn't look like a 2 hour fix if the intake camshaft needs to be replaced.
MotoWPK commented:
January 28, 2014, 12:08 pm

After reading the SIB (thanks for posting the link to it z3RIFFRAFF) I question why it does not address what to do with the vacuum pump.

Clearly if you'd experienced a vacuum pump failure it would be replaced in addition to the intake camshaft. But, even if you have not experienced a vacuum pump failure but have the camshaft type that needs to be replaced, then your vacuum pump has presumably experienced reduced oil lubrication and, while it may not have failed yet, it would at least have been potentially damaged or have excessive wear. It would seem that if your vehicle has the 8 mm material width near the vacuum pump drive lug as described in the SIB, necessitating replacement of the intake camshaft, then replacement of the vacuum pump is also warranted.

Has anyone heard or seen anything on this aspect of the recall?
namelessman commented:
January 28, 2014, 12:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoWPK View Post
After reading the SIB (thanks for posting the link to it z3RIFFRAFF) I question why it does not address what to do with the vacuum pump.

Clearly if you'd experienced a vacuum pump failure it would be replaced in addition to the intake camshaft. But, even if you have not experienced a vacuum pump failure but have the camshaft type that needs to be replaced, then your vacuum pump has presumably experienced reduced oil lubrication and, while it may not have failed yet, it would at least have been potentially damaged or have excessive wear. It would seem that if your vehicle has the 8 mm material width near the vacuum pump drive lug as described in the SIB, necessitating replacement of the intake camshaft, then replacement of the vacuum pump is also warranted.

Has anyone heard or seen anything on this aspect of the recall?
Replacing both intake camshaft and vacuum pump would make sense, however if the SIB does not allow/pay for vacuum pump replacement, the dealer won't do it(unless there is a verifiable defect).
raleedy commented:
January 28, 2014, 12:49 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkLambo View Post
I've a 2012 x1 and I got a recall notice in the mail yesterday but it said it's about the standards of emissions Canada, nothing about power braking. Are there two recalls?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
There are two countries, for sure.
AJPITT commented:
January 28, 2014, 1:26 pm

Is anyone receiving the follow-up letter telling them to go to the dealership for repairs? I only received the initial notice and it said that I would be notified soon when parts were available but that was back in November, I think, and it is now almost Feb.
MotoWPK commented:
January 28, 2014, 1:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Replacing both intake camshaft and vacuum pump would make sense, however if the SIB does not allow/pay for vacuum pump replacement, the dealer won't do it(unless there is a verifiable defect).
What you don't want is the vacuum pump to then fail outside of warranty. I suppose if your vehicle was subject to the recall you could then claim a latent defect, but who wants to have to possibly fight this in the future?

If the lack of lubrication caused by intake camshaft's manufactured with the 8mm material width is sufficient to have caused vacuum pumps to fail, and BMW says this is the case, then the possibility of a vacuum pump being damaged to some extent or having experienced premature wear is obvious. I don't see how BMW could deny the need for them to at least inspect and or test the pump for such damage or premature wear, though it might be less expensive for them to simply replace the pump.
PinkLambo commented:
January 28, 2014, 3:00 pm

I called all the BMW dealerships in my area and they all said if you want a courtesy car it's $26 document fee, BMW Canada told us, I had asked BMW Canada they said they have no such policy, it's up to the dealership. No other brand charges for a courtesy car.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Marathonrunner commented:
July 9, 2014, 2:54 pm

My brakes failed on July 5 2014 on my 2008 328i. Service at dealership said vacuum pump failed. After doing my own research, I saw 2012-2013 models had this problem. I'm waiting to hear back from BMW NA. My car is no longer under warrenty and not subject to the recall (if they did one) for the 2012-2013 models. If you experienced this have you been able to get BMW NA to cover repair costs? And have you had it repaired, have you had any re-occurences of this happening again?
mr_clueless commented:
July 9, 2014, 2:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathonrunner View Post
My brakes failed on July 5 2014 on my 2008 328i. Service at dealership said vacuum pump failed. After doing my own research, I saw 2012-2013 models had this problem. I'm waiting to hear back from BMW NA. My car is no longer under warrenty and not subject to the recall (if they did one) for the 2012-2013 models. If you experienced this have you been able to get BMW NA to cover repair costs? And have you had it repaired, have you had any re-occurences of this happening again?
Hopefully nothing bad happened.

If you haven't already done so, post your experience at:
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/Vehicl...nt/index.xhtml
dima123 commented:
July 9, 2014, 3:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPITT View Post
Is anyone receiving the follow-up letter telling them to go to the dealership for repairs? I only received the initial notice and it said that I would be notified soon when parts were available but that was back in November, I think, and it is now almost Feb.
After the car was in the shop for several months; they finally agreed to fix it; just haven't had time to post on here. Had to sign a waiver to release liability from bmw to prevent a lawsuit. Since the brake pump was fixed the 2012 528xi has been running fine. Threaten to sue them; that always works in this country.
Marathonrunner commented:
July 9, 2014, 3:03 pm

Hopefully nothing bad happened

Thanks for the concern! No, nothing bad happend. Me and my passenger were fine. It happend as I was going at a slow rate of speed, around 10 mph, after a stoplight. Had just come off the freeway though, so kinda scary. Pulled off to the side, using the e-brake before getting to the next stop sign. Concerned of getting it repaired and it happening again -on a freeway or something worse!
tturedraider commented:
July 9, 2014, 3:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathonrunner View Post
My brakes failed on July 5 2014 on my 2008 328i. Service at dealership said vacuum pump failed. After doing my own research, I saw 2012-2013 models had this problem. I'm waiting to hear back from BMW NA. My car is no longer under warrenty and not subject to the recall (if they did one) for the 2012-2013 models. If you experienced this have you been able to get BMW NA to cover repair costs? And have you had it repaired, have you had any re-occurences of this happening again?
Sorry that happened to you and glad no one was hurt, but it's very unlikely BMW will cover this unless it was some really unusual failure they can identify as being a very specific manufacturing defect.

The F30, N20 motor brake issue was the result of a design issue with that particular motor. The issue would not be present in the N52, inline six motor used in your 2008 328i. The fact that they both happen to have the 328i moniker has no bearing.
Bret_T commented:
July 9, 2014, 3:51 pm

Any manufacturer would be stupid not to fix a brake, steering, ignition, seat belt, airbag failure orpretty much anything related to safety for free. It could end up costing them much more in the long run. Just ask government motors. A jury won't care what engine or particular model the car was when the failure can be traced back to a design or manufacturing defect (which Marathonrunner's failure almost certainly was).
Marathonrunner commented:
July 9, 2014, 3:52 pm

That's what I was afraid of, but thought I'd seek out people on here. Thanks for the info - helpful.
Michael Schott commented:
July 9, 2014, 4:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
Any manufacturer would be stupid not to fix a brake, steering, ignition, seat belt, airbag failure orpretty much anything related to safety for free. It could end up costing them much more in the long run. Just ask government motors. A jury won't care what engine or particular model the car was when the failure can be traced back to a design or manufacturing defect (which Marathonrunner's failure almost certainly was).
There's no guarantee a defect on a 6 year old car is a design flaw. There are 100's of thousands of E90's on the road without this issue.
Bret_T commented:
July 9, 2014, 4:24 pm

It doesn't matter if it was a design flaw, a manufacturing defect or whatever. People will not accept that safety related failures are acceptable after a certain number of miles or a certain amount of time. If just one car has the problem, they should fix it and be happy it didn't cost them any real money. Take Marathonrunner's car for example. If his brake failure caused a wreck in which someone was killed, that's not driver error. Assuming that maintenance neglect isn't to blame, the people on a jury just are not going to care at all how many out of the car population had the same issue or even why it happened. They're only going to care about who is the party that is liable for the death. Again, BMW would be stupid not to fix this and be happy about having the opportunity to do so.
vw2bmw commented:
July 9, 2014, 4:27 pm

There is no current issue or recall I can remember for that problem in the country I live in. It is important to remember that recalls are based on a specific defect that can be traced back to a production number, lot, etc., with legal implications. I think BMW has gotten better at warning customers about possible defects that "could" arise in their models and normally, at least nowadays, tell you about it in writing and issue a one-year period for you to check it out with your dealer. I believe this is an excellent business practice.
Michael Schott commented:
July 9, 2014, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
It doesn't matter if it was a design flaw, a manufacturing defect or whatever. People will not accept that safety related failures are acceptable after a certain number of miles or a certain amount of time. If just one car has the problem, they should fix it and be happy it didn't cost them any real money. Take Marathonrunner's car for example. If his brake failure caused a wreck in which someone was killed, that's not driver error. Assuming that maintenance neglect isn't to blame, the people on a jury just are not going to care at all how many out of the car population had the same issue or even why it happened. They're only going to care about who is the party that is liable for the death. Again, BMW would be stupid not to fix this and be happy about having the opportunity to do so.
Do you expect a vacuum pump to last the life of a car? Brakes still work when a vacuum pump goes out by the way. The effort to push the pedal is increased. Power steering pumps and motors don't last the life of a car by the way, nor do engines. Parts wear and eventually fail. Unless there's a rash of these issues, BMW has zero obligation to pay for the repair. They may do so as a courtesy but they have no obligation. And likening this to GM's issues is a gigantic stretch. That was a true design flaw and a corporate cover up.
tturedraider commented:
July 9, 2014, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Do you expect a vacuum pump to last the life of a car? Brakes still work when a vacuum pump goes out by the way. The effort to push the pedal is increased. Power steering pumps and motors don't last the life of a car by the way, nor do engines. Parts wear and eventually fail. Unless there's a rash of these issues, BMW has zero obligation to pay for the repair. They may do so as a courtesy but they have no obligation. And likening this to GM's issues is a gigantic stretch. That was a true design flaw and a corporate cover up.
This is the new generation of Bimmerfest. Logic and reason have no place here.
Bret_T commented:
July 9, 2014, 5:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Do you expect a vacuum pump to last the life of a car? Brakes still work when a vacuum pump goes out by the way.
I expect the brakes to work 100% of the time when they're pressed (assuming they've been properly maintained). If all drivers can still get the car to stop, then it's not a problem. If a portion of the population does not have the strength to get the car to stop after a failure, then BMW has a problem.

Quote:
Power steering pumps and motors don't last the life of a car by the way, nor do engines. Parts wear and eventually fail.
We're talking about failures that are directly related to safety.

Quote:
And likening this to GM's issues is a gigantic stretch. That was a true design flaw and a corporate cover up.
Let's see. An ignition failure resulted in people dying. If a brake failure results in the potential for the same thing, then I see it as a perfect comparison. And again, people (juries) won't care whether it was a design flaw with a cover up or if the manufacturer claims that the part wore out. A part wearing out or breaking should not have the potential for causing a death. If it does, then there is a design problem.
Michael Schott commented:
July 9, 2014, 5:50 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
I expect the brakes to work 100% of the time when they're pressed (assuming they've been properly maintained). If all drivers can still get the car to stop, then it's not a problem. If a portion of the population does not have the strength to get the car to stop after a failure, then BMW has a problem.



We're talking about failures that are directly related to safety.


Let's see. An ignition failure resulted in people dying. If a brake failure results in the potential for the same thing, then I see it as a perfect comparison. And again, people (juries) won't care whether it was a design flaw with a cover up or if the manufacturer claims that the part wore out. A part wearing out or breaking should not have the potential for causing a death. If it does, then there is a design problem.
Every single part on a car will eventually fail. Brakes have a backup system, it's called the human body.

Do you understand the GM ignition problem? The key could easily be knocked into the accessory position killing the engine and GM designed the system so airbags did not work in that position. They knew about the issue and did nothing about it. In no way does the loss of power assistance in a 6 year old car have anything to do with that case. You could not be more wrong.
Bret_T commented:
July 9, 2014, 6:18 pm

I certainly do understand the GM ignition problem. While this problem may not be as agregious, my point still remains. People expect safety related parts to work. Right or wrong, this isn't 30 years ago when manufactures could get away with not being 100% when it comes to safety. If a car manufacturer is presented with an opportunity to perform a safety related repair and fails to do so, they are being penny wise and pound foolish. BTW, don't extrapolate from anything that I've written that I think manufacturers should be sued for big $$$ just because a safety related failure happens. I'm simply saying that the currently reality is that they likely will be due to the fact that the trial lawyers pretty much own our court systems. For a car manufacturer to pass on an opportunity to avoid a lawsuit down the road is just short sighted in my opinion.
mr_clueless commented:
July 9, 2014, 6:59 pm

I don't know that I could ever side with a manufacturer for a brake/safety issue, even for an older car.

Just out of curiosity, do they cover exercises for dealing with brake failure in car control clinics?
Marathonrunner commented:
July 12, 2014, 12:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathonrunner View Post
My brakes failed on July 5 2014 on my 2008 328i. Service at dealership said vacuum pump failed. After doing my own research, I saw 2012-2013 models had this problem. I'm waiting to hear back from BMW NA. My car is no longer under warrenty and not subject to the recall (if they did one) for the 2012-2013 models. If you experienced this have you been able to get BMW NA to cover repair costs? And have you had it repaired, have you had any re-occurences of this happening again?
Thought I'd post an update. BMW NA called me twice today. First call was to talk to me about what happened. I asked for BMW NA assistance to cover the repair cost. They were aware I am no longer under warranty. The woman I talked to said she would send this to a regional manager executive, who would call the mechanic at the dealership where I had my car towed. She called me back 20 minutes later but I was away from my phone so she left a message that BMW would cover 70% of the $1,900.00 repair cost and said the mechanic would call me on Monday. I guess I am pleased with them covering 70% as I was expecting to have to fight for any help. It's more than half. However, I am still concerned with the same thing happening again. Each time I ask about a re-occurance to the mechanic or BMW NA, I am told well it should not happen. I am going to take them up on the 70% as I have to get it fixed either way - just don't know if I am going to keep the car or sell it. I've never had any other problems with the car other than this major saefty issue. I did also file a complaint to the NHTSA.
mr_clueless commented:
July 12, 2014, 1:30 am

That's great they will cover 70%.

My general feeling is that these cars (with the tons of electronics that they have) should not be owned out of warranty. That said, I took a chance with my E46. After owning it to 100k with extended warranty and maintenance, I decided to keep it (despite having issues during that period) because I didn't see any point in going to the E90 -- poor interior design, run flats, no spare. Fortunately I didn't have anything major go wrong. A few unscheduled things, but my car was pretty bare bones -- not even power seats. The only option I had (moonroof) was on the verge of failing for the 2nd time at the time I sold it (fully disclosed to the brave buyer). With this car, I don't think I will own it without a warranty, because I don't have that kind of attachment to it like I did for the E46.

It depends on what concerns you about the failure. With respect to cost, I believe (and you can double check this) any work done by the dealer is warrantied for 2 years from the date of service. Regarding safety, only you can make that decision. I would probably be OK knowing it has been fixed. But I didn't experience the failure and might think differently if I did.
Marathonrunner commented:
July 12, 2014, 1:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
That's great they will cover 70%.

My general feeling is that these cars (with the tons of electronics that they have) should not be owned out of warranty. That said, I took a chance with my E46. After owning it to 100k with extended warranty and maintenance, I decided to keep it (despite having issues during that period) because I didn't see any point in going to the E90 -- poor interior design, run flats, no spare. Fortunately I didn't have anything major go wrong. A few unscheduled things, but my car was pretty bare bones -- not even power seats. The only option I had (moonroof) was on the verge of failing for the 2nd time at the time I sold it (fully disclosed to the brave buyer). With this car, I don't think I will own it without a warranty, because I don't have that kind of attachment to it like I did for the E46.

It depends on what concerns you about the failure. With respect to cost, I believe (and you can double check this) any work done by the dealer is warrantied for 2 years from the date of service. Regarding safety, only you can make that decision. I would probably be OK knowing it has been fixed. But I didn't experience the failure and might think differently if I did.
Good call about the extended warranty. After my warranty ran out I did think about getting an extended one. I think I'll look into it now. Thanks for the info. I'll also check with the mechanic when he calls on Monday about their work warrantied for 2 years. I think I do recall reading that somewhere. My concerns about failure is it just happening again where I am not on a side street going at a slow rate of speed, but on a freeway going much faster with many more cars around. But like you said, only I can make that decision on how comfortable I am with it.
Eagle11 commented:
July 12, 2014, 1:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathonrunner View Post
Thought I'd post an update. BMW NA called me twice today. First call was to talk to me about what happened. I asked for BMW NA assistance to cover the repair cost. They were aware I am no longer under warranty. The woman I talked to said she would send this to a regional manager executive, who would call the mechanic at the dealership where I had my car towed. She called me back 20 minutes later but I was away from my phone so she left a message that BMW would cover 70% of the $1,900.00 repair cost and said the mechanic would call me on Monday. I guess I am pleased with them covering 70% as I was expecting to have to fight for any help. It's more than half. However, I am still concerned with the same thing happening again. Each time I ask about a re-occurance to the mechanic or BMW NA, I am told well it should not happen. I am going to take them up on the 70% as I have to get it fixed either way - just don't know if I am going to keep the car or sell it. I've never had any other problems with the car other than this major saefty issue. I did also file a complaint to the NHTSA.
Grow up, no one is going stay it wont happen again.