Review of the F80 M3 and how it compares to E90 M3 and F10 M5

by Bimmerfest.com Member - DerStig on July 30, 2014, 10:42 pm


I have been waiting a long time to write this review. Initially I was going to post lots and lots of pictures and videos, but I wanted to keep everyone's focus in the content rather than the pictures and videos. So for now I am just posting 3 pictures, however I will be posting a separate thread for pictures AND videos of the various bits and pieces of the car. I'm an amateur photographer and videographer, therefore I believe these deserve their own threads!

Now that's out of the way, where do I start?

I went from a 2011 E90 DCT ZCP M3 to 2014 F10 M5 DCT ZCP to a 2015 F80 M3. Yeah I know. A lot of cars, a lot of expensive cars, in a short period of time. I have been very fortunate in that, I was able to drive all of these cars to their fullest extent and experience them.

Before I go into specifics, I'm going to summarize what I'm about to say and be blunt about it.

Of all these 3 cars, hands down, no doubt, in my mind, the best car out there was the E90 M3. I'm not a professional driver. I'm not a competitive race track driver. I'm a car enthusiast. For someone like me, the engine and the sound of a car (as I now realize) plays a very key role. In these two areas, both the M5 and the new M3 fails miserably. Both of them lack induction noise (i.e. the engine note), both of them have horrifying exhaust notes with M5 having an edge (since it's a V8 and I had a comp package with no muffler). The M3 exhaust is just utterly disgusting.

So why didn't I keep my M3 then? Well simple, it was a lease, lease was up, keeping it beyond lease and getting warranty/maintenance, new tires, etc would result in me paying more money per month for the next 5 years than I am paying now in my M3. All in all, in 8 years (3 years lease + 5 years finance for residual), the amount of money I paid for the M3 would be outrageously high (over 90k with interest) for a car that will be worth maybe 20-22k at the end of those 8 years. It just made no financial sense. I always told myself that it cannot be this bad and I'm sure I'll love these new turbo cars and I do, but I guess deep down I always suspected this would have happened, the regret would have hit me.

That being said, there are many good things about these cars:

Steering: The steering in the new M3 is the best of all 3. Then comes the F10 M5, then the old M3. I'll give it to BMW, they have done a fantastic job with the new EPS steering. It's so precise, yet at the same time so modern. Bravo.

Performance: The new M3 destroys the old one hands down. No contest there. It will smoke the E90, even with a supercharger on it from 0-60, 1/4 mile, you name it. I had both the M5 and M3 back to back and they accelerate very similar. They have the same 0-1000m time, same 0-60 time, and same a lot of numbers. In extreme cases where you are doing a race from a roll say 60mph to 140mph, M5 will win due to its larger displacement engine. But overall, they are extremely similar. Now M6 though is another story, M6 will eat the M3/M4 alive.

Exterior: I hated the look of the M5. So classic, so understated. First I liked it, yeah "wolf in sheep clothing". But then more and more I realized it looks nothing like a true M car. No extended wheel arches. No carbon fiber roof. No aggressive bumper. No power dome. It just looks too standard. The new M3 looks amazing in person. Unbelievable. And white is stunning. Shows the curves of the car so well. I love the looks of the new car so much.

Gas mileage: Oh my god. 27 mpg in an M3 is not a dream anymore. Under similar driving conditions, this car gets 40% or so better mileage than my M5 and %25-30 mileage better than my old M3. Unbelievable. The problem is, it has a smaller gas tank than the regular 3 series, roughly 1 gallon less. Not good. M5 on the other hand had a massive 21.1 gallon tank, a full 5.1 gallons more. When all said and done, M5 would get more range with a full tank of gas, which was very convenient.

Interior: M5 hands down has the best interior out of all 3. The entire car is covered in leather. Doors from top the bottom, dashboard, back of the seats, everything. Even the roof is suede. The new M3 is a huge improvement over the old one, but still a lot of 3 series cheapness. A lot of plastic and not 5 series plastic, but bad low quality plastic. Doors are really light and have to be slammed. The radio buttons are low quality plastic. For some reason I think the plastic they used is worse in this M3 than the old one. But interior is still an improvement.

Technology: Both M5 and M3 share same technology as far as HUD, M views, M buttons, driver assistance features and so on. M5 has more luxury features such as massaging seats or ventilated seats and things like trunk closing with swiping the foot (M3's trunk opens if you swipe your foot, but closes manually). These new Ms are fairly advanced in this area. However, a lot of these features are extremely unnecessary, at least in the M3. You dont need the cameras, the driver assistance features, and especially the HUD. They are all waste of money. In M5, I can see the argument, parking that car is near to impossible without cameras. You need the blind spot detection because seats are so thick that it's hard to see your blind spot, but M3 does not have these issues.

Overall: If you want luxury, go with M5. If you want pure performance go with new M3. If you want spirited driving, soul, pure joy and don't care much about lapping a track 5 seconds slower, go with the old M3.

In terms of M3 vs M5, M5 is a very different type of car. Just because 5 is greater than 3 does not mean M5 is the next step from an M3. It's more like it's a more appropriate car for older people with different needs from a car. I am associating it with age simply because as men age their needs change too. But you can certainly be 25 and like an M5. It's an extremely expensive car to own and maintain. I do a lot of my own maintenance myself and M5 is not practical in that sense. It's huge, heavy, parts are very expensive, there is little to none DIY information available, and you are stuck going to dealership for everything. It's tires and wheels are huge, aftermarket parts are extremely expensive and limited. It's a more exclusive car certainly, but very distant and silent. You don't hear the engine much (or not as much as the new M3) unless you are above 4k rpm. It's very hard to enjoy it also. You can enjoy the new M3 just shifting at 2500 rpm, in the M5 you have to be driving at dangerous speeds to get some adrenalin pumped into your blood.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Overall I am happy with the M3. If I went directly from E90 to F80, I'd be miserable. But after seeing the F10, I am telling myself, this is the better of the worst. Having seen the M5, and since it was the last car I owned before this M3, it sort of makes me feel better owning this car.

In reality, there is a lot of cool technology and lots of optimizations that are in the new M3. So many improvements, so many new ideas and I quite like it. But they are all very minor changes. It's not like we have a car that has GT-R like performance and sub 3.0s 0-60 time. It's still, well, relatively slow compared to those super cars. It's not leaps and bounds better than the old car. It is BETTER, don't get me wrong. Aside from sound, everything is better. But is it really worth the upgrade to the point where one should lose 20k during the process and give up the sound of the old engine? Most definitely not. If you own your M3 outright and not leasing it, I'd say keep it and modify it and maintain it for as long as you can.


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146 responses to Review of the F80 M3 and how it compares to E90 M3 and F10 M5

beden1 commented:
July 31, 2014, 12:34 am

Thanks for the frank review. We will be happy to keep our E90 M3!
K-A commented:
July 31, 2014, 9:45 am

Great review. Thanks. I think the F30 M3 is a masterpiece.

I agree about the looks. My biggest issue with the F10 M5 is that it doesn't really look "M stated". A regular F10 M Sport I think is almost as beautiful (if not more from the rear). It just looks like a lazy interpretation of an M transition. The M3 now had a TOTALLY different presence in person from the standard 3. It looks more "M" than 3. To me, it looks downright exotic in its M-esque way. I also think the M3 looks more harmonious and nice than the M4, more well proportioned as well.

I personally like the F10 exterior design more than the standard F30 (though M Sport vs M Sport, the F30 comes close or depending on my mood, could even best it on some days). But I think the F80 does look better than any F10, and I find the F10 to be the nicest Sedan design to ever come out, really.

The only thing I don't like about the F80 is the interior! It uses that damn cheap a$$ F30 interior. Maybe I'd get used to it if I get one, but being used to an F10, just looking at it gives me a feeling I'd assume I'd get if I was moving from a luxurious house to a moderate apartment. I don't even think the 3 Series has interior ambiance lights? I've been spoiled by this fluff. That area on the F80 where the center console goes into the M style gearshift lower console area, and the stitched "arm" just blatantly cuts off, looks hideous, like something I wouldn't expect BMW to ever do. Maybe in person it'd all makes sense to me and I could at least somewhat fall in love with the interior. The F10 interior is so smooth and well resolved, the wood blends from the dash into the doors, etc. The F30 dash is of a totally different design from the doors, like they have no blending correlations at all. But maybe that's part of the M3 charm, the car is a refined street car with a race soul, and the interior accompanies that.

I'm also thrilled that the F80 went back to an I6. IMO it gives it the inherent engine designation that defines BMW's soul, and gives it back its unique power train aura. Even though the E90 M3 had a V8 unlike any other in the world, V8's are common, as are V6's. I6's, especially BMW I6's are legendary and completely exclusive. I also think that BMW's turbo I6's have more dynamic capabilities than about anything out there. The distinctive sound (though maybe not on the S55 unfortunately?), nimble high revving nature yet muscle-car like low-end torque, inherently balanced design (one of the only in the world) providing it smoothness you wouldn't think 6 cylinders could be capable of, and great MPG, all factor into it being what I prefer in an M3. Being the most technically impressive I6 BMW has ever put in a production car to date, makes me want the car on its own.

It's also amazing how incredible the performance figures are for a car with "only" 425 HP. 3.9 seconds 0-60 and a 1/4 very close to 11's is what bloated cars of higher HP figures can't even touch. To me that's what great engineering is all about. Not chasing the marketing HP war figures, but getting as much "more" you can out of as "less" gluttonous measures. That's very true to M roots, and what Porsche has built its history upon.

Questions:

Re: the M3 trunk closing: I'm assuming it at least has auto close?

Also, is the M3 really that much cheaper/easier to maintain, find parts for and DIY than the M5? The M5 uses mostly regular F10 exterior parts, while the M3 is almost entirely of distinctive parts, save for the doors, lights, roof and deck really. I actually find that to be a plus as if you ever got in an unfortunate accident, insurance companies would be forced to use OEM parts as aftermarket parts for the M specific sections would probably/hopefully be nonexistent.

And, don't the M5 and M6 have similar power? I thought they performed close enough to where an M6 for example couldn't eat up an M3 if the M3 performs similarly to the M5 in a straight line.
DerStig commented:
July 31, 2014, 10:21 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Great review. Thanks. I think the F30 M3 is a masterpiece.

I agree about the looks. My biggest issue with the F10 M5 is that it doesn't really look "M stated". A regular F10 M Sport I think is almost as beautiful (if not more from the rear). It just looks like a lazy interpretation of an M transition. The M3 now had a TOTALLY different presence in person from the standard 3. It looks more "M" than 3. To me, it looks downright exotic in its M-esque way. I also think the M3 looks more harmonious and nice than the M4, more well proportioned as well.

I personally like the F10 exterior design more than the standard F30 (though M Sport vs M Sport, the F30 comes close or depending on my mood, could even best it on some days). But I think the F80 does look better than any F10, and I find the F10 to be the nicest Sedan design to ever come out, really.

The only thing I don't like about the F80 is the interior! It uses that damn cheap a$$ F30 interior. Maybe I'd get used to it if I get one, but being used to an F10, just looking at it gives me a feeling I'd assume I'd get if I was moving from a luxurious house to a moderate apartment. I don't even think the 3 Series has interior ambiance lights? I've been spoiled by this fluff. That area on the F80 where the center console goes into the M style gearshift lower console area, and the stitched "arm" just blatantly cuts off, looks hideous, like something I wouldn't expect BMW to ever do. Maybe in person it'd all makes sense to me and I could at least somewhat fall in love with the interior. The F10 interior is so smooth and well resolved, the wood blends from the dash into the doors, etc. The F30 dash is of a totally different design from the doors, like they have no blending correlations at all. But maybe that's part of the M3 charm, the car is a refined street car with a race soul, and the interior accompanies that.

I'm also thrilled that the F80 went back to an I6. IMO it gives it the inherent engine designation that defines BMW's soul, and gives it back its unique power train aura. Even though the E90 M3 had a V8 unlike any other in the world, V8's are common, as are V6's. I6's, especially BMW I6's are legendary and completely exclusive. I also think that BMW's turbo I6's have more dynamic capabilities than about anything out there. The distinctive sound (though maybe not on the S55 unfortunately?), nimble high revving nature yet muscle-car like low-end torque, inherently balanced design (one of the only in the world) providing it smoothness you wouldn't think 6 cylinders could be capable of, and great MPG, all factor into it being what I prefer in an M3. Being the most technically impressive I6 BMW has ever put in a production car to date, makes me want the car on its own.

It's also amazing how incredible the performance figures are for a car with "only" 425 HP. 3.9 seconds 0-60 and a 1/4 very close to 11's is what bloated cars of higher HP figures can't even touch. To me that's what great engineering is all about. Not chasing the marketing HP war figures, but getting as much "more" you can out of as "less" gluttonous measures. That's very true to M roots, and what Porsche has built its history upon.

Questions:

Re: the M3 trunk closing: I'm assuming it at least has auto close?

Also, is the M3 really that much cheaper/easier to maintain, find parts for and DIY than the M5? The M5 uses mostly regular F10 exterior parts, while the M3 is almost entirely of distinctive parts, save for the doors, lights, roof and deck really. I actually find that to be a plus as if you ever got in an unfortunate accident, insurance companies would be forced to use OEM parts as aftermarket parts for the M specific sections would probably/hopefully be nonexistent.

And, don't the M5 and M6 have similar power? I thought they performed close enough to where an M6 for example couldn't eat up an M3 if the M3 performs similarly to the M5 in a straight line.
The interior of the M3 is really not it's strong suit. In fact, if you are coming from a 535, it will disappoint you somewhat. If you are into details, things like door seals, memory buttons on the doors, the radio buttons, A/C controls, or the rear A/C controls, all of this will disappoint you.

In a 5 series, there are 4 individual A/C units with thermostats. That means every corner of the car has a powerful A/C section that is maintained independently. In the M3 there is only 2 for the entire car and each individual unit has much less power than that of the one in 5 series. In my M5, the A/C was so powerful, you never had to increase it over speed 2 at 70F, in the M3, we are often at speed 4 and 68F and the fans can be heard very loudly. What I'm saying is, A/C sucks, and it's worse than the old M3. Old M3 wasn't as good as the M5, but it wasn't as bad either. It could be weight or emission savings, not sure.

There is ambient lighting, and it's same as the one in M5. The M5 ambient lighting wasn't that good to begin with, the real one you should see is the M6. Now that looks nice!

The headliner and sun visors are all plastic, not alcantara. When you use the sun visors, they feel really cheap.

I mean I could go on and on. The point is, don't buy this car for it's interior. You will be very sorry and you will regret it. All these comments about how it's interior is great comes from people who either never owned BMWs or have the previous M3. This car is not meant to be a luxury sedan. It's a raw sports car for a car enthusiast. It's for people who like getting their palms sweat because they squeeze the steering wheel so hard when they drive the car to it's limits. It is NOT a smaller and cheaper M5.

The trunk does not close all by itself. There is no button to close it. You have to close it yourself.

The insurance will always replace it with an OEM part, they have to.

M6 is much faster than an M5 as it weighs a full 250 lbs less. That's huge. It makes the same power with much less weight and has better center of gravity. It handles a ton better and it traps over 125 mph in a 1/4 mile. Now if M5 had the M6 performance, that'd be something else. Driving an M6 is a totally different experience. It's interior is also much nicer with contrast stitching. The B&O speakers all light up on the doors and at the back as well as the front unit, whereas in the M5, only the front unit in the dashboard lights up.
SuperTerp commented:
July 31, 2014, 11:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I mean I could go on and on. The point is, don't buy this car for it's interior. You will be very sorry and you will regret it. All these comments about how it's interior is great comes from people who either never owned BMWs or have the previous M3. This car is not meant to be a luxury sedan. It's a raw sports car for a car enthusiast. It's for people who like getting their palms sweat because they squeeze the steering wheel so hard when they drive the car to it's limits. It is NOT a smaller and cheaper M5.

The trunk does not close all by itself. There is no button to close it. You have to close it yourself.

The insurance will always replace it with an OEM part, they have to.

M6 is much faster than an M5 as it weighs a full 250 lbs less. That's huge. It makes the same power with much less weight and has better center of gravity. It handles a ton better and it traps over 125 mph in a 1/4 mile. Now if M5 had the M6 performance, that'd be something else. Driving an M6 is a totally different experience. It's interior is also much nicer with contrast stitching. The B&O speakers all light up on the doors and at the back as well as the front unit, whereas in the M5, only the front unit in the dashboard lights up.
Yup anyone whose had one of the better M's 5's,6's, even X's would see a MASSIVE drop in quality and functional amenities. I can't tell a potential buyer the hard work I put in daily having to close my own doors now, coming from an M5 its awful and my arms hurt and don't get me started on having to close my own trunk... Exhausting

Careful on the performance it still can't beat a FBO e85&Meth 335i/135i.
DerStig commented:
July 31, 2014, 12:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Yup anyone whose had one of the better M's 5's,6's, even X's would see a MASSIVE drop in quality and functional amenities. I can't tell a potential buyer the hard work I put in daily having to close my own doors now, coming from an M5 its awful and my arms hurt and don't get me started on having to close my own trunk... Exhausting

Careful on the performance it still can't beat a FBO e85&Meth 335i/135i.
Yeah and the FBO E85 Meth M3 will beat and M6, what's your point?

I wouldn't call those other Ms "better", they are just "different". They do certain things better and others not.

For example, the M5 is larger than the previous 7 series. It's a full 11 inches longer than the M3 and 4 inches wider. It weighs over 2 tons fully optioned and feels like a complete boat compared to the M3. Try doing any aggressive moves with the M5 and M3 back to back and tell me what you think Also M5 is so distant and so quiet, you cannot hear the engine noise from under the hood, you cannot hear the exhaust at a satisfying level unless it's revved at or above 4000rpm.

They are made for a different type of people who enjoy different things in a car.

The point is, if BMW offered the same level of quality and exterior/interior amenities of an M5 in a 550, I guarantee you 90% of those M5 owners would stick to a 550. At that size and weight level, it's not really an "M" car. If a 550 had full merino leather and alcantra headliner, M seats, 20" wheels and black exhaust tips, so basically M5 minus anything that makes an M car (suspension, etc etc). Whereas the same cannot be said for the M3, M3 offers so much more, it's a different experience all together. It's a raw car, and a track car.
Flstate commented:
July 31, 2014, 12:22 pm

Lol on the above post!

Anyways this is the normal white right? Looks amazing. I hope the mineral white looks good as well, my. Car is starting production next week hopefully.


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DerStig commented:
July 31, 2014, 3:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flstate View Post
Lol on the above post!

Anyways this is the normal white right? Looks amazing. I hope the mineral white looks good as well, my. Car is starting production next week hopefully.


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Yes it is normal white. Mineral white also looks great, but it's a b!tch to maintain when it comes to rock ships or any sort of paint job. The best color for that kind of stuff is really white, nothing else. Call me crazy but it makes life simpler
Flstate commented:
July 31, 2014, 3:28 pm

Okay, thank you ;-)


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SuperTerp commented:
August 1, 2014, 6:03 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Yeah and the FBO E85 Meth M3 will beat and M6, what's your point?
Those cars from a 40 roll are MONSTERS and I think if anything it'll be near a tie or barely a win vs. a stock M6 comp package car and the 599 buck stage 1 at 2.2lbs [you can safely run 4-6lbs of boost on the 63tu] of boost ontop of the CP would walk it all over again...

and in case you don't think I know what I'm talking about I had the stage 1 BMS on the m5 for 17k miles, and I've already got Terry's JB4 Alpha on my m4

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post

I wouldn't call those other Ms "better", they are just "different". They do certain things better and others not.
I mean I guess we can pick apart what I said... But regardless, other than the more nimble feeling and actually feeling the speed above 90 again. I doubt many if not a all people could really ever use the "track performance" advantage the m3/m4s offer over a competition packaged m6. I'm only taking turns a tad bit faster than a NON-CP M5 [I have a video taking a 25mph turn at 66 with the m5 barely hanging on, this morning I took it at 69 with the m4 and could maybe push it another 3-7mp. All without CP on the m5 or the better more planted m6].

But in the end price matters and for the price its a great deal especially once they start marking them off in a year or two, and other than exhaust and v8... Its a big upgrade in a lot of ways over the e92 m3[I put 15k on that and had bpm tune, dinan intake, pulley, etc. ], but if you can make the m6 loaded work in the budget especially with how much they discount those. I think I'd rather try that having now put 3k miles on the m4. I'm happy with the m4, and happy I moved on from the m5. And really how many people are shopping a 75-89k M3/M4 loaded vs. a 130-146k m6... NOT MANY.
K-A commented:
August 1, 2014, 6:11 am

Terp: How bout a little review of your switch from the F10 to the F80?

I know raw speed is your thing, but do you miss the refinement of the F10 interior, things like alcantara, more harmonious interior design, etc.? How about mechanical engineering, does the M3 really get your blood flowing that much more? And finally, on exterior styling, do you agree with DerStig in that the M3 looks more commanding and appealing in the sense that it's more differentiated as an "M" from the F10 M5?
SuperTerp commented:
August 1, 2014, 6:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Terp: How bout a little review of your switch from the F10 to the F80?

I know raw speed is your thing, but do you miss the refinement of the F10 interior, things like alcantara, more harmonious interior design, etc.? How about mechanical engineering, does the M3 really get your blood flowing that much more? And finally, on exterior styling, do you agree with DerStig in that the M3 looks more commanding and appealing in the sense that it's more differentiated as an "M" from the F10 M5?
Yeah, I'm having LOTS of fun with it [that can't be understated].. I can't go roll race and expect to win against almost all but the most highly modified cars, like I could with the BMS M5, but again how many people are doing that, or spending time above 75mph where you really notice the difference between the S55 and 63tu..

You can definitely tell the quality is different [as it should be for a 20-40k premium] vs. the M5/M6. But the outside makes people look at it, and I love the aggressive nature of the styling. I can honestly say I've had more people ask me about it, tell me they like it, or snap pictures in 2 weeks with the m4 than 6 months with the m5 [and I had the sakhir M5 not the run of the mill black, silver, white].

-I agree with his assessment on the AC I find myself with it always near 3 to max where the m5 barely ever saw above 3 bars.

-The seats are ten times better in the m4/m3 I absolutely love them!

-The B&O with stealth pilots settings destroy the h&K and if you can order the Bowers Wilkins option that's not listed I'd do that if I could over... Granted I didn't even buy the car I ordered, I bought their hre car because it hadn't come over [again b&o $3700 option vs. $800 Hk]

-Blood flowing MUCH more in the m4... 110 feels like 155+ in the M5 [I had drivetrain malfunction playing around with 6lbs of boost in the m5 and even with the speedo above 160 and the car jerking the m5 felt more stable if thats any indication of just how detached they make it from the true speed lol]

-Exhaust sounds better inside the car, but even my mom mentioned when I swung by to see her "It kinda sounds like a supped up Honda, like you're trying to make it sound loud. Sorry." lol

Just like he said they serve very different purposes and clienteles, I think all but the most luxo focused owners couldn't enjoy the m3/m4.. Other than that I don't think anyone would find too much of a problem owning an m3/m4 or an m5/m6... Just really depends on the buyer.
K-A commented:
August 1, 2014, 8:34 am

Sweet, thanks. The S55 alone makes me want the car, just right down my alley. Ahh, I see you go the M4. That probably gets a little more attention than an M3 due to the Coupe being newer and Coupes in general being more rare than Sedans, but they have the exact same body really (personally I think the M3 looks even better, IMO) and I do think both have this really race-bred exotic appeal (mixed with the timelessly tasteful conservative nature of a BMW 3 box design) that has more flair than the tastefully understated M5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Yes it is normal white. Mineral white also looks great, but it's a b!tch
to maintain when it comes to rock ships or any sort of paint job. The best color for that kind of stuff is really white, nothing else. Call me crazy but it makes life simpler
That's one of the many reasons I like a flat white too. If I got an M3, I'd really want the special blue paint, but I'm weary on how paranoid that would make me in terms of touching it up, if anything had to be color matched, etc. I'd assume that color might be difficult, especially due to its rarity?
DerStig commented:
August 1, 2014, 8:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Those cars from a 40 roll are MONSTERS and I think if anything it'll be near a tie or barely a win vs. a stock M6 comp package car and the 599 buck stage 1 at 2.2lbs [you can safely run 4-6lbs of boost on the 63tu] of boost ontop of the CP would walk it all over again...

and in case you don't think I know what I'm talking about I had the stage 1 BMS on the m5 for 17k miles, and I've already got Terry's JB4 Alpha on my m4



I mean I guess we can pick apart what I said... But regardless, other than the more nimble feeling and actually feeling the speed above 90 again. I doubt many if not a all people could really ever use the "track performance" advantage the m3/m4s offer over a competition packaged m6. I'm only taking turns a tad bit faster than a NON-CP M5 [I have a video taking a 25mph turn at 66 with the m5 barely hanging on, this morning I took it at 69 with the m4 and could maybe push it another 3-7mp. All without CP on the m5 or the better more planted m6].

But in the end price matters and for the price its a great deal especially once they start marking them off in a year or two, and other than exhaust and v8... Its a big upgrade in a lot of ways over the e92 m3[I put 15k on that and had bpm tune, dinan intake, pulley, etc. ], but if you can make the m6 loaded work in the budget especially with how much they discount those. I think I'd rather try that having now put 3k miles on the m4. I'm happy with the m4, and happy I moved on from the m5. And really how many people are shopping a 75-89k M3/M4 loaded vs. a 130-146k m6... NOT MANY.
M6 is something else. There are people who trap 126 mph with that thing, it traps 4-5 mph more than an M5. It has a significant weight advantage and it is aerodynamically superior to the M5. Then it also costs a lot more. You can buy 2 nicely optioned M3s for the price of 1 nicely optioned M6.

But let's compare the M5 and let's compare it to the M3. Sedan to sedan.

M3 looks a lot more aggressive than an M5. I hate how understated M5 is. M3 also has very similar performance figures to M5 stock vs stock. They both do 0-60 in 3.7-3.8s, they both do 0-1000m 21.9s, M5 does 1/4 mile 0.2s and 0.5-1.0mph faster than an M3. This is because M5 weighs over 4400 lbs!

Doing one way turns in a highway is by no means can judge a car's handling capabilities. M5 stops from 60 mph in 110ft. M3 does that in 98ft. That's 10% slower. That is significant. Throw M5 around a turn in an S shape that involves braking and acceleration and see what happens. Also try doing a U turn with traction control off (half doughnut), the car is a lot more difficult to manage.

The only thing going for M5 is the luxury. If M5 had the same performance numbers as an M6, I'd still be owning my M5 today and I'd have modified it. But it does not. It's a big and heavy car and it feels that way all the time.
DerStig commented:
August 1, 2014, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Yeah, I'm having LOTS of fun with it [that can't be understated].. I can't go roll race and expect to win against almost all but the most highly modified cars, like I could with the BMS M5, but again how many people are doing that, or spending time above 75mph where you really notice the difference between the S55 and 63tu..

You can definitely tell the quality is different [as it should be for a 20-40k premium] vs. the M5/M6. But the outside makes people look at it, and I love the aggressive nature of the styling. I can honestly say I've had more people ask me about it, tell me they like it, or snap pictures in 2 weeks with the m4 than 6 months with the m5 [and I had the sakhir M5 not the run of the mill black, silver, white].

-I agree with his assessment on the AC I find myself with it always near 3 to max where the m5 barely ever saw above 3 bars.

-The seats are ten times better in the m4/m3 I absolutely love them!

-The B&O with stealth pilots settings destroy the h&K and if you can order the Bowers Wilkins option that's not listed I'd do that if I could over... Granted I didn't even buy the car I ordered, I bought their hre car because it hadn't come over [again b&o $3700 option vs. $800 Hk]

-Blood flowing MUCH more in the m4... 110 feels like 155+ in the M5 [I had drivetrain malfunction playing around with 6lbs of boost in the m5 and even with the speedo above 160 and the car jerking the m5 felt more stable if thats any indication of just how detached they make it from the true speed lol]

-Exhaust sounds better inside the car, but even my mom mentioned when I swung by to see her "It kinda sounds like a supped up Honda, like you're trying to make it sound loud. Sorry." lol

Just like he said they serve very different purposes and clienteles, I think all but the most luxo focused owners couldn't enjoy the m3/m4.. Other than that I don't think anyone would find too much of a problem owning an m3/m4 or an m5/m6... Just really depends on the buyer.
So you got the JB4 tune (how the heck did you get that!) and M4 still does not feel fast? The car is extremely difficult to control as is, it has so much power and torque, I wonder what extra 50-60 hp will do to this car.

My first real mod will be wider tires, I want to run 265/295 on this car, then an eisenmann-race and let's see what happens.

When all said and done, dollar to dollar, I save $800/month owning the M3 over the M5 with all the savings included such as gas, insurance, and less monthly payment. This calculation does not include the amount of money I will save for being able to do my own maintenance myself for which in the M5 I would never be able to do. That's like another car payment, heck you can get a corvette stingray for that and still have money left over.
SuperTerp commented:
August 1, 2014, 10:05 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
So you got the JB4 tune (how the heck did you get that!) and M4 still does not feel fast? The car is extremely difficult to control as is, it has so much power and torque, I wonder what extra 50-60 hp will do to this car.

My first real mod will be wider tires, I want to run 265/295 on this car, then an eisenmann-race and let's see what happens.
r.
Testing for Terry I need to get logging though you notice it on that's for sure and with only just the base boost settings .

I'd love to run 295s would surely help 1/4 times.


Yeah i'm saving 250 a year in insurance, gas I already fill up 1-2 instead of 3-4 [and thats 20 gallons],

Tires are almost half the cost
K-A commented:
August 1, 2014, 1:59 pm

As far as solidity goes, being that there are multitudes of ways to determine that (same goes for crashworthiness for that matter), i.e interior rattles, feel of materials when you open/shut/touch/smack them, etc., torsional rigidity wise, the F80 actually is astoundingly solid. BMW managed to make it drastically stiffer than the F30 (probably one other reason why they gave it an entirely new chassis code) and even stiffer than the regular F01/F10 (which comes at 37,500 nm's of anti-twist power) as it comes in at 40k nm's of torsional rigidity. I'm not sure if the F10 M5 got similar treatment in terms of being tightened up significantly over the regular F10 or if it carries the same rigidity figure, but I've heard that the regular F10 was/is so stiff, that they didn't have to go through such extensive measures.
kk22 commented:
August 1, 2014, 2:07 pm

THanks for posting your review. very handy to a 535xi owner like me looking to make a switch a year down the line. I am a little surprised to hear your opinion about the interior and referring to the leather in the F10. Does your car have the FULL leather option? I was having a hard time to put my finger on a non-leather surface inside the M4 recently. I think that option is pricey but a must for F10 folks who have a high expectation of the interior.
DerStig commented:
August 1, 2014, 2:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kk22 View Post
THanks for posting your review. very handy to a 535xi owner like me looking to make a switch a year down the line. I am a little surprised to hear your opinion about the interior and referring to the leather in the F10. Does your car have the FULL leather option? I was having a hard time to put my finger on a non-leather surface inside the M4 recently. I think that option is pricey but a must for F10 folks who have a high expectation of the interior.
No problem.

I have full leather and it is a must in this car. Its already too cheap looking (interior wise) and I couldnt live without the full leather. That being said, it is probably the least important option if you are on a budget, adaptive suspension, HK sound, and DCT are higher in the list.
Capobranco commented:
August 1, 2014, 4:20 pm

I have not had the opportunity to drive the new M3/M4. Aesthetically, I find both the M3 and the M4 just about perfect – both convey a sense of speed and BMW purposefulness. Dynamically, I appreciate the enhanced performance capabilities of the new cars, and their efficiency. Most importantly, you note, as others have commented, the new M3/M4 are fun to drive.

I am certain, at some point in time, a new M4 will find a home in my garage – and that will be a very happy day in the Capobranco house. However, until that day comes, I will savor the e92 M3. I have owned many nice cars – but the e92 is special to me. Exotic sound, right now reflexes, thrilling performance, wearing Q Ship guise - the e92 M3 is a BMW decathlon champ. Indeed, I am toying with the idea that I might stay with the e92 and have some fun modding for a few years, and delay the lease of a new M4 until the “Competition” package is introduced.

Decisions ….decisions….. a choice between winning and winning
SuperTerp commented:
August 1, 2014, 5:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Also try doing a U turn with traction control off (half doughnut), the car is a lot more difficult to manage.
nahhhh I did it plenty with the BMS on and made it through winter trying to race it and the thing going sideways I know how to control that beast when its going sideways but again not many would want to
MMME30W commented:
August 1, 2014, 6:04 pm

Some posts that were not in the spirit of "bringing the BMW community together" were removed from this thread.

Let's keep Bimmerfest M forum fun and enjoyable for everyone.

daytrader commented:
August 2, 2014, 1:26 pm

Nice choice DerStig, the m3 probably won't be as unloved as BMW thinks compared to the m4, and in AW even better if exterior maintenance is of concerns. Liked you comparo, most points being obvious but nice to hear from someone with actual wheel time behind them.
DerStig commented:
August 2, 2014, 10:41 pm

I really dislike the exhaust guys, it's really getting to me. On the other hand, I am really liking the sound of the inline 6 and the overall loudness/rawness of the car. It feels like a stripped out track car and it handles so good. That being said, my god that exhaust is just atrocious. What the heck was BMW thinking? I hope eisenmann race can overcome this, if it cannot, I don't know what I would do. I may even get an old E92 M3 for 35k and get a second car for the family. Call me crazy, but the sound of a car is just so important for me and after owning this car, I am realizing that more and more.

The car is a beast, it handles so good, and it's so powerful. The first gear is so sensitive, it's hard not to jerk the car. I mean I love everything else about the car. It looks gorgeous and so aggressive. But the sound is just terrible

And there is the infamous exhaust rattle that never seems to go away, google it I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.
K-A commented:
August 3, 2014, 7:18 am

I don't know why but BMW's normal I6's always sound so incredible while the hippo M versions tend to sound like crap (exhaust rattle, etc.). The E46 M3, one of my favorite cars of all time, has one of the worst exhaust notes of all time.

I bet the ENGINE of the S55 sounds sublime, indeed. I'm not so big on the I6 exhaust sound as much as I am the exhilarating intake/motor sound. I wish BMW would just find a way to muffle the hell outta the exhaust and in trade, make the engine itself sound like it's on a loudspeaker.

Just saw the white M3 in the new R&T. Holy crap is it a stunning car. That singlehandedly put it back on my consideration list.
Eagle11 commented:
August 5, 2014, 3:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Of all these 3 cars, hands down, no doubt, in my mind, the best car out there was the E90 M3. I'm not a professional driver. I'm not a competitive race track driver. I'm a car enthusiast.

The M3 exhaust is just utterly disgusting.

It just made no financial sense.
Lets get a few things correct if you are a true car enthusiast then financial sense goes out the door.

exhaust tone can be changed and give the aftermarket another couple of months and they will have an exhaust that will make the F80 sing, remember car enthusiast will make the changes to make them happy.

Now for me, the F80 is worlds better then the E90 M3 in every way, I'll be ready for my F80 in 3 years when someone is done posing in it and returns its off lease.
mike@x-ph.com commented:
August 5, 2014, 2:26 pm

Thanks for the review
DerStig commented:
August 5, 2014, 10:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle11 View Post
Lets get a few things correct if you are a true car enthusiast then financial sense goes out the door.

exhaust tone can be changed and give the aftermarket another couple of months and they will have an exhaust that will make the F80 sing, remember car enthusiast will make the changes to make them happy.

Now for me, the F80 is worlds better then the E90 M3 in every way, I'll be ready for my F80 in 3 years when someone is done posing in it and returns its off lease.
Exhaust tone cannot be changed. Exhaust tone can become louder. But it will still have the same lawn mower sounding ugly tone to it. An M5 exhaust like eisenmann race sounds a million times better than anything anyone will come up with for this car. If it sounded like GTR, now that's something else, but it doesn't and it won't because it cannot.

F80 is worlds better than E90 in a competitive, handling, and a technical way. E90 is better than F80 in an emotional way.

And to be honest with you, the more I drive this car, the more I realize it's power is pretty useless on the 1st and 2nd gear. There is just no traction. I tried warming up my tires to 110F, lowering the pressures to 31psi, nothing helps. There is no way to prevent excessive wheel spin. None of these were issues in E90. It was more fun car, it was building power in a more manageable way. M5 has the same problem, but M5 has its weight and wider tires to its advantage. M3 is too light for the kind of RWD power it's making. It's going to need some serious tires like R888 to put that traction down nicely for it to be able to achieve anything below 3.8s to 60.

Truth be told, I could enjoy my E90 without ever going into MDM mode in all gears flooring the gas. I never had to worry about traction lighting up unless I was turning and giving gas. In the F80, I literally have to turn the traction control FULLY OFF to be able to accelerate aggressively. There is just no way to enjoy the car as is with DSC on. Traction control gets in the way so aggressively that it just ruins the moment for you.
DerStig commented:
August 5, 2014, 10:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
I don't know why but BMW's normal I6's always sound so incredible while the hippo M versions tend to sound like crap (exhaust rattle, etc.). The E46 M3, one of my favorite cars of all time, has one of the worst exhaust notes of all time.

I bet the ENGINE of the S55 sounds sublime, indeed. I'm not so big on the I6 exhaust sound as much as I am the exhilarating intake/motor sound. I wish BMW would just find a way to muffle the hell outta the exhaust and in trade, make the engine itself sound like it's on a loudspeaker.

Just saw the white M3 in the new R&T. Holy crap is it a stunning car. That singlehandedly put it back on my consideration list.
Engine sounds great, but downshifts don't. Have you ever driven a DCT E9X M3 and did a downshift at S5? That downshift induction noise from the engine would scare people away. It'd have people literally turn around and look at you from across the street like what the **** is going on.

In the F8X, you can downshift from 5000rpm and hit 7000 rpm, it sounds like someone is gently pressing the throttle. Absolutely no roar. It has got nothing to do with I6 though, my M5 was the same. 4.4 liter 600 hp engine, it sounds like an inline 4 when you downshift. No exhaust noise, no roaring sound. Turbo cars are really bad when it comes to sound. It's torture for people with E60 M5 backgrounds.
sf_loft commented:
August 6, 2014, 1:26 am

Congrats. 1st world problems, I can't decide which M car is best . I personally love my F10 M5 - the proportions just look better imo. If anything, I would wait for the M2 or get the M235i as a second car to toss around on track day.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 5:51 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Congrats. 1st world problems, I can't decide which M car is best . I personally love my F10 M5 - the proportions just look better imo. If anything, I would wait for the M2 or get the M235i as a second car to toss around on track day.
Agreed. I to Love my f10 M5. I think the M5 is the better looking M car compared to the M3. The only 2 things the new M3 have on the M5 is the price and lighter weight, I know I sound like a broken record. If you put a list together between the 2 M cars the M5 is by far the better car from A to Z, minus price and vehicle weight. For me I am going to wait and see what changes are made to the M3 when the LCI is introduced with the CP and the next GEN. M5.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 5:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Engine sounds great, but downshifts don't. Have you ever driven a DCT E9X M3 and did a downshift at S5? That downshift induction noise from the engine would scare people away. It'd have people literally turn around and look at you from across the street like what the **** is going on.

In the F8X, you can downshift from 5000rpm and hit 7000 rpm, it sounds like someone is gently pressing the throttle. Absolutely no roar. It has got nothing to do with I6 though, my M5 was the same. 4.4 liter 600 hp engine, it sounds like an inline 4 when you downshift. No exhaust noise, no roaring sound. Turbo cars are really bad when it comes to sound. It's torture for people with E60 M5 backgrounds.
I think the V-8 of the M5 sounds better and if you install a aftermarket exhaust(E-RACE OR AKRAPOVIC) the sound is amazing. The other factor that helps the sound of the F10 M5 is having it in a six speed manual.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 7:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Exhaust tone cannot be changed. Exhaust tone can become louder. But it will still have the same lawn mower sounding ugly tone to it. An M5 exhaust like eisenmann race sounds a million times better than anything anyone will come up with for this car. If it sounded like GTR, now that's something else, but it doesn't and it won't because it cannot.

F80 is worlds better than E90 in a competitive, handling, and a technical way. E90 is better than F80 in an emotional way.

And to be honest with you, the more I drive this car, the more I realize it's power is pretty useless on the 1st and 2nd gear. There is just no traction. I tried warming up my tires to 110F, lowering the pressures to 31psi, nothing helps. There is no way to prevent excessive wheel spin. None of these were issues in E90. It was more fun car, it was building power in a more manageable way. M5 has the same problem, but M5 has its weight and wider tires to its advantage. M3 is too light for the kind of RWD power it's making. It's going to need some serious tires like R888 to put that traction down nicely for it to be able to achieve anything below 3.8s to 60.

Truth be told, I could enjoy my E90 without ever going into MDM mode in all gears flooring the gas. I never had to worry about traction lighting up unless I was turning and giving gas. In the F80, I literally have to turn the traction control FULLY OFF to be able to accelerate aggressively. There is just no way to enjoy the car as is with DSC on. Traction control gets in the way so aggressively that it just ruins the moment for you.
There are some excellent points brought up here that you have yet to hear from any review that has been done on the current M3. Power being useless in first or second gear, I currently do not own a F80 M3, but I believe this statement could be true. The new M3 is probably putting down close to 500 HP from the engine and the car is bigger dimension wise than the old M3 but it weighs less, no traction in first or second gear makes sense. " M3 is to light for the kind of RWD power it is making". With that statement being made from a current F80 M3 owner, who also is a previous F10 M5 owner, this is very interesting but also sounds very logical.

Remeber the old saying, " be careful what you wish for". Almost every body has been complaining about the weight of the current F10 M5 and especially when comparing it to AWD cars like the E 63 AMG. The thing M car owners have to remeber is this current lineup of M cars is the most powerful to date, and they are also RWD. To a man almost every review done on the F10 M5, the car journalists performing the review states that you have to learn how to drive the new M5 ALL OVER AGAIN compared the to E60. Keep IN MIND carlos Lagos statement he makes when driving the F80 M3, " THIS CAR DRIVES LIKE A SMALLER M5 AND WITH ALL THE NEW TORQUE YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE THE CAR ALL OVER AGAIN", then he goes onto explain how the new M3 is sharing alot of the same mechanical components, other than steering, as the F10 M5.

Again eveybody keeps screaming " WE WANT LIGHTER WEIGHT M CARS !", but they forget the new M cars are extremely powerful and they are RWD. So when you compare the previous generation M5 and M3 to the current generation everybody has to remeber some very important facts:

1) The previous generation M5 and M3 were anywheres from 50-100 HP less than the current generation M cars.

2) The previous generation M cars were, in case of the F80 M3, A little heavier which made putting down less HP and LESS torque easier to drive and more enjoyable to the driver thus creating more of a emotional experience. Although the NEW M3 MAY ACTUALLY HANDLE BETTER, first and second gear are useless when putting your foot to the floor.

3) The E60 M5 had alot of short falls for a $ 100,000.00 car compared to the F10 M5. Although the F10 M5 IS HEAVIER THAN THE E 60 M5 IT IS NOT VERY MUCH HEAVIER. What is the significants of this ? The E 60 M5 was just heavy enough to handle the 500 HP and 395 ft./lbs. of torque, thus making the E 60 M5 easier to drive thus making it appear to handle better when it really does not handle better when you consider the F10 M5 has 100 more HP and 100 more FT./LBS. of torque.

4) The bottom line is this, people need to remeber that the new M cars are RWD just as they always have been with alot more HP and TORQUE so with that comes a learning curve when it comes to driving them and it takes alot of finesse with the throttle versus a AWD car that takes very little finesse with the gas pedal. The new M cars will handle it just takes some smooth finesse with the right foot and driving skill. You know the old saying sometimes, " you need to go slow to actually go fast". RWD drive cars with high HP are alot like race cars, it takes a little patience and skill to drive them fast and efficiently at the same time.

When it is all said and done we have to remeber that BMW is constantly being compared to AWD drive cars with the same HP or less and in alot of cases they are still coming out on top in head to heads. When you think about it that is really amazing. If there competitors were making RWD cars there would not even be a discussion.

As I said earlier, be careful what you wish for, because light weight with more HP and RWD may not be the answer. I actually think the M5 with 600 plus engine HP and 400 lbs. less weight with RWD is going to be even harder for people to drive, the car will literally be to much to handle.

The problem with the new M CARS is not the cars it is the peolple buying them. As one automotive critic said after testing the F 10 M5, " CAN YOU HANDLE WHAT THE M5 IS OFFERING ?". And in most cases peolple that are buying the new M5 can not handle the car when they try to drive it aggressively.
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 8:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post

The problem with the new M CARS is not the cars it is the peolple buying them. As one automotive critic said after testing the F 10 M5, " CAN YOU HANDLE WHAT THE M5 IS OFFERING ?". And in most cases peolple that are buying the new M5 can not handle the car when they try to drive it aggressively.
Personally I don't think anyone is above handling the power its that they don't do it enough to really learn it so when they do use it its scary.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 8:59 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Personally I don't think anyone is above handling the power its that they don't do it enough to really learn it so when they do use it its scary.
There is not much you can do to learn when it comes to maximum acceleration from 0 or anything under 30. You have to turn the traction control OFF fully to do any sort of aggressive acceleration in this car at those speeds. Which in public roads is DANGEROUS. I have had this happen to me TWICE now where the read of the car literally started going zig zag and if it were another driver who doesn't know how to control the car, he could do some serious damage. The point being, I never had to turn the traction control off in my E90 or F10. They were fun and fast cars in their sense and using sport plus throttle was never a problem

Speaking of sport plus throttle, which brings me to my next point that I interestingly missed, turbo lag.

If there is one thing that M3 is significantly superior to the M5, that is turbo lag (and throttle sensitivity). The turbo and intercooler design in the M3 are very different than that of the M5. M3 has smaller turbos that are far more aggressively pretensioned and positioned differently. From a turbo lag/throttle response point of view, M5 is really behind. After having owning them both, under load (you won't notice this unless you are pushing these cars to their limit), there is significant turbo lag in the M5. Again, significant compared to the M3. It is still worlds better than something like N55 or any other turbo engine out there. The problem with this is, the throttle is extremely sensitive in sport or sport plus. This in turn has a negative effect for traction. When you press the throttle in the M5, it takes X amount of time for the full boost to kick in. During that X time, the car continuous to move and gradually builds power (compared to the M3). In M3, that's not how it works. Car being lightweight makes matters much worse.

The intercooler in the M3 is massive and right next to the engine. There is so much more aggressive, track oriented cooling that the car literally cools down when it sits on traffic. Carlos also mentions this in his review a few times and I have noticed it too. They made the cooling so aggressive that when you are not driving and sitting in traffic, the temperature actually drops to below 190F, which is ridiculous for a car that is running 18 psi on these small turbos.

M3 is really a track car. It's a car that can be enjoyed in the track and it's tremendous amount of fun. But in regular city/highway driving, if you try to enjoy it, you'll get in trouble.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Personally I don't think anyone is above handling the power its that they don't do it enough to really learn it so when they do use it its scary.
Agreed. I was probably being a little harsh. But with both the M5 and the M3 you really have to know your limits. And when you realize your limits as a driver you can still have fun. For example when I am really pushing the car on public roads, I never get any more aggressive than MDM mode when driving back roads. The only time I have shut the DSC off completely was on a track. So yes the M5 can be handled, but within the limits of your driving ablity.
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
Agreed. I was probably being a little harsh. But with both the M5 and the M3 you really have to know your limits. And when you realize your limits as a driver you can still have fun. For example when I am really pushing the car on public roads, I never get any more aggressive than MDM mode when driving back roads. The only time I have shut the DSC off completely was on a track. So yes the M5 can be handled, but within the limits of your driving ablity.
I always did MDM and it saved me numerous times. ESPECIALLY in hard winter driving with sub 40 degree temps and supersports It also helped me really predict what the car would do under what conditions and my confidence grew into the summer when I got rid of it.

untrained is untrained be it in a civic or m5 or bugatti. Id wage the same recklessness it would take to do serious bodily harm to ones self or another is actually easier to do with cheaper cars due to less advanced engineering etc. but people don't hop in civics and go try to take turns at 120+ with traction off or brake from 140 down to 0...
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
There is not much you can do to learn when it comes to maximum acceleration from 0 or anything under 30. You have to turn the traction control OFF fully to do any sort of aggressive acceleration in this car at those speeds. Which in public roads is DANGEROUS. I have had this happen to me TWICE now where the read of the car literally started going zig zag and if it were another driver who doesn't know how to control the car, he could do some serious damage. The point being, I never had to turn the traction control off in my E90 or F10. They were fun and fast cars in their sense and using sport plus throttle was never a problem

Speaking of sport plus throttle, which brings me to my next point that I interestingly missed, turbo lag.

If there is one thing that M3 is significantly superior to the M5, that is turbo lag (and throttle sensitivity). The turbo and intercooler design in the M3 are very different than that of the M5. M3 has smaller turbos that are far more aggressively pretensioned and positioned differently. From a turbo lag/throttle response point of view, M5 is really behind. After having owning them both, under load (you won't notice this unless you are pushing these cars to their limit), there is significant turbo lag in the M5. Again, significant compared to the M3. It is still worlds better than something like N55 or any other turbo engine out there. The problem with this is, the throttle is extremely sensitive in sport or sport plus. This in turn has a negative effect for traction. When you press the throttle in the M5, it takes X amount of time for the full boost to kick in. During that X time, the car continuous to move and gradually builds power (compared to the M3). In M3, that's not how it works. Car being lightweight makes matters much worse.

The intercooler in the M3 is massive and right next to the engine. There is so much more aggressive, track oriented cooling that the car literally cools down when it sits on traffic. Carlos also mentions this in his review a few times and I have noticed it too. They made the cooling so aggressive that when you are not driving and sitting in traffic, the temperature actually drops to below 190F, which is ridiculous for a car that is running 18 psi on these small turbos.

M3 is really a track car. It's a car that can be enjoyed in the track and it's tremendous amount of fun. But in regular city/highway driving, if you try to enjoy it, you'll get in trouble.
I love listening to your very detailed critiques of the two cars. At one point you have me ready to pull the trigger on the austin yellow M3 and then after listening to you continue to critic the M3 as you get to own it longer I go back to believing The M5 is the better " all around M car A to Z."
When I say A to Z I am talking looks,interior,comfort,technology,engine, and performance. Yes I will agree two totally different M cars but in some ways very much alike, like two brothers.
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
When I say A to Z I am talking looks,interior,comfort,technology,engine, and performance. Yes I will agree two totally different M cars but in some ways very much alike, like two brothers.
Looks [subjective... But for me the m4 looks nicer and is more well received by strangers than the m5 was]

Interior [m5/m6, but I wish I could have my m4 seats]

Technology [m5... hud is much more detailed and while the new m mode changes look cool and have a more euro vibe, the map guidance on the hud is clearly 3 series, vent seats, b&O trunk/doors all win the m5/m6]

performance [CLEARLY the m5/m6 and if they are ever equally tune-able the 63tu will be amazing... That car is already taking 700+hp for lots of people I know WITH EASE, there is no comparing a stock m5 with cpackage, or an m6 to an M3/m4. If one wants to debate usable safe road speed that's one thing but above 70mph it'll get gutted if the 63tu has room]


Do the above upgrades warrant the pricing difference thats where the debate starts and its up to each buyer to put a price on that... If you never go over 90mph and want to feel like your going fast m3/m4 are plenty, if you spend your days above 70mph m6 cp would be my advice. Its all about buyer preference and budget.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I always did MDM and it saved me numerous times. ESPECIALLY in hard winter driving with sub 40 degree temps and supersports It also helped me really predict what the car would do under what conditions and my confidence grew into the summer when I got rid of it.

untrained is untrained be it in a civic or m5 or bugatti. Id wage the same recklessness it would take to do serious bodily harm to ones self or another is actually easier to do with cheaper cars due to less advanced engineering etc. but people don't hop in civics and go try to take turns at 120+ with traction off or brake from 140 down to 0...
Agreed again. I enjoy the MDM MODE, even though if you are not careful you can get yourself into trouble being in MDM, but it does allow you the ability to have some hooliganism fun with some degree of predictibility. And I will agree with your comment of peolple getting themselves into more trouble with less engineered cars. Same can be said for AWD cars. AWD can give you a false sense of security and when you lose it in a AWD sports car it happens so fast you do not even realize it because the AWD made you feel invincible.
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:52 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
Agreed again. I enjoy the MDM MODE, even though if you are not careful you can get yourself into trouble being in MDM, but it does allow you the ability to have some hooliganism fun with some degree of predictibility. And I will agree with your comment of peolple getting themselves into more trouble with less engineered cars. Same can be said for AWD cars. AWD can give you a false sense of security and when you lose it in a AWD sports car it happens so fast you do not even realize it because the AWD made you feel invincible.

Most people just know better than to hop in a new civic and try to take turns at 100+ or get it up to 140... These cars they feel like they can/should and same with the AWD overconfidence that translates to cars of *this nature.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:55 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by superterp View Post
most people just know better than to hop in a new civic and try to take turns at 100+ or get it up to 140... These cars they feel like they can/should and same with the awd overconfidence that translates to cars of these nature.
+ 1.
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Looks [subjective... But for me the m4 looks nicer and is more well received by strangers than the m5 was]

Interior [m5/m6, but I wish I could have my m4 seats]

Technology [m5... hud is much more detailed and while the new m mode changes look cool and have a more euro vibe, the map guidance on the hud is clearly 3 series, vent seats, b&O trunk/doors all win the m5/m6]

performance [CLEARLY the m5/m6 and if they are ever equally tune-able the 63tu will be amazing... That car is already taking 700+hp for lots of people I know WITH EASE, there is no comparing a stock m5 with cpackage, or an m6 to an M3/m4. If one wants to debate usable safe road speed that's one thing but above 70mph it'll get gutted if the 63tu has room]


Do the above upgrades warrant the pricing difference thats where the debate starts and its up to each buyer to put a price on that... If you never go over 90mph and want to feel like your going fast m3/m4 are plenty, if you spend your days above 70mph m6 cp would be my advice. Its all about buyer preference and budget.
Conversely I have gotten alot of thumbs up and compliments from people in their 20's to people in their 60's with the M5. But it could be the MCB. The M5 just really seems to stand out with MCB, espcially with the opticoat application.

Just curious, why did you go from the M4 to the M5 ? And how do you like the M4 compared to the M5 ?
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:10 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
I love listening to your very detailed critiques of the two cars. At one point you have me ready to pull the trigger on the austin yellow M3 and then after listening to you continue to critic the M3 as you get to own it longer I go back to believing The M5 is the better " all around M car A to Z."
When I say A to Z I am talking looks,interior,comfort,technology,engine, and performance. Yes I will agree two totally different M cars but in some ways very much alike, like two brothers.
The problem with me is, I like both cars, and I would buy either one of them (bought in this case) for out of necessity not because I was sold to them (like I did to E90). Let me elaborate:

- I got the M5, because of its sheer luxury, interior, V8, and exhaust note. The problem is, all of that came with its huge size and I dont mean weight. We know the car hides its weight, I mean its physical dimensions. I park in a private close garage, and I get 1.5 inches of clearance on each sides of the mirror when I enter my garage. Everything from parking the car in my garage to parallel parking it in Manhattan became issues. What I realized is, I got this car not because I actually wanted an M5, but because the new M3 lacked in those areas, the biggest issue being the lack of V8 and terrible exhaust note. I also did not like the noticeable turbo lag and the braking of the car. There were a few instances where I miscalculated braking and ended up almost hitting the guy in front of me. Never happened with the M3 before.

- I got the M3, because it was smaller, nimbler, it had much better braking distance and it was more of an easier car to manage overall. It was a lot more forgiving. M5 was a serious car that required lots of time, effort, and money to maintain. M3 is more of a smaller child of the two that can afford you to make novice mistakes and easier to manage. The problem then was the car feels really cheap. I mean really really cheap. It's much worse than the E9X with respect to the plastic they use. The leather is much better, but everything else they use is far worse. There is a lot less sound proofing, the plastic they use on the dashboard, radios, other M buttons etc is very cheap. They removed things like syncing the temperature (so you have to use 2 temperature dials to maintain A/C temperatures, which is ridiculous) or the ability to increase/decrease transmission modes. It has one button and it keeps going 1, 2, 3, then to 1 again and so on. All of this cheapness in the car is driving me crazy. The exhaust in this car is atrocious. I mean what was BMW thinking putting this thing out there. I had this happen to me so many times, people come up to me in a parking lot, "lets hear her, fire her up!", I do, give it some gas, and I can see the look on their face from the rear view mirror, that embarrassed, "wow what a ridiculous thing is now how do I look this guy in the face and act like it actually sounds good" look.

The point being, both cars were purchased due to something else being missing from the other one, NOT because I actually liked either of them.

The problem with BMW is as follows :

- They associate luxury with size. They don't have cars that are nimble, fast, also luxurious. If you want good quality, you have to get a car that is the size of a boat.
- They associate sportiness with cheapness. The M2 for example, it apparently wont have carbon fiber roof, wont have CCBs, it wont have this and it wont have that. Why is it that the number in the car's model is the determining factor of its price and luxury point?

What they need is to make each M car at the same luxury level as an M6. BUT increase the price accordingly. Make the new M3 just like an M5 from an interior point of view, but increase its base price by 15-20k. What happens next is, people will buy a car based on their size and usage requirements. Alternatively, they can make the current M2/M3/M4 the "M Performance" models for track junkies and make the M2/M3/M4 the full complete package with every M performance counterparts have with added luxury.

Now I'm in a bind. I am never going to like this car or the M5 as much as I liked my E9X. I just cannot accept how the exhaust sounds and I hate how the dashboard squeaks everytime I press buttons. I hate the fact that I have to run A/C so much that my wife on the other end of the telephone HEARS the fans and tells me to TURN IT DOWN. How ridiculous is this? None of these were issues in E9X! None! I can maybe try not to use the buttons in dashboard, but the A/C thing and exhaust is driving me nuts. A/C is really bad. And what's worse is the rear seats. Now when I'm on speed 4, the rear is like speed 1. My daughter is constantly sweating in her car seat. I dont know if the A/C in the M3 is dumbed down for efficiency or if the regular F30 is like this.
beden1 commented:
August 6, 2014, 11:45 am

I've been reading though this thread with great interest as we have an '11 E90 M3 with a MT. I also had an '08 E93 M3 with DCT. I found there was much more traction control, even with DTC off, when driving a MT over the DCT in any of the M Drive settings from normal to sport plus . But, these cars have less torque as compared to the new M4 producing 425 HP and 406 lb.-ft. of torque.

I had an '09 Corvette Z06 with a MT which produces 505 HP with 470 lb. ft. of torque. But, the car only weighed 3,145 lbs. as compared to the M4 that weighs 3,530 lbs. More torque and much less weight made the Z06 very tricky to put down the power when launching, especially with DTC off and even with massive tires, so launching in second, or even third gear helped to put the power down for a clean start. Most of the time however, keeping DTC in either normal mode or in competition mode helped to maintain control when launching or during spirited driving. IMO, only a professional driver would benefit from turning DTC off in a car with this much power to weight ratio. I think the same is probably true when driving the new M4/3.

I think a driver needs to be careful when setting the M Drive depending on the driving conditions, particularly with a DCT. I really needed to spend time getting to understand how these settings manipulated the car, and in the sport plus settings, drastically so. I had a much better sense of control driving with a MT in any M Drive settings. But, sport plus settings, IMO, only belong on the track. They really only come alive, as they were intended to, when you're able to push the car beyond what would be safe on public roads.

Back in 1983, I bought a new BMW 533i, which at the time, was a predecessor to the M5 that first came out in 1985. It replaced my 1979 BMW 328i. The 533i had an automatic transmission. What I found from driving this car, was because it was a chasis and interior designed for highway speed comfort, and because it was tight and quiet with the windows up, it was difficult to realize how fast you were going. This caught me off guard a number of times. Fortunately, the car had decent brakes.

I later drove a modern day E Series M5 that a dealer friend of mine had taken in on trade. The car only had around 1,500 miles on it and I asked why the owner decided to trade it in so soon. The dealer said that the owner was afraid of the car because it gave him no sense of the speed he was traveling. This guy also owned a Ferrari and a Porsche. When driving the car myself, I felt the same way as the previous owner, and felt that the seating position was also a cause for creating a false sense of speed and control. (driving fast sports cars like Corvettes and now my Porsche, the seating position is near ground level, which gives you a clear sense of what speed you're traveling. While a benefit for sprited driving around country roads, it makes for a less desireable highway driving experience, as on the highway, you get fatigued quicker than if your more upright in your seat and driving a sedan). Also, the lack of exhaust and engine sounds provided very little feedback.

I'm not interested in an M5 because I prefer driving sports cars over super sedans, but if I did get one, it would have a MT. At least that way, I could have some sense of control and speed. To M5 owners, and for that matter, M4/3 owners as well, be aware that you're sense of speed is hindered by the tight body control, quiet interior with windows up, lack of engine and exhaust note (M4/3), and more upright seating postion as compared to driving a sports car. Even though your brakes are no doubt good, nothing can beat the law of physics.

Be safe out there!
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 12:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I'm not interested in an M5 because I prefer driving sports cars over super sedans, but if I did get one, it would have a MT. At least that way, I could have some sense of control and speed. To M5 owners, and for that matter, M4/3 owners as well, be aware that you're sense of speed is hindered by the tight body control, quiet interior with windows up, lack of engine and exhaust note (M4/3), and more upright seating postion as compared to driving a sports car. Even though your brakes are no doubt good, nothing can beat the law of physics.

Be safe out there!
Compared to a f430 which I've spent extensive amounts of time in, that car is much more like the m3/m4 in its rawness and feeling of speed.. m5 I would honestly not feel that uncomfortable texting and driving or sipping coffee at 155 thats how refined and detached it is.


When the m5 bites it bites bad... i took a turn regularly in the 70s to mid 80s one night not paying attention I took it at 91-94 and the car bit VERY hard, you instantly feel the weight the engineering hides so well in the 70s-80s.
beden1 commented:
August 6, 2014, 12:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Compared to a f430 which I've spent extensive amounts of time in, that car is much more like the m3/m4 in its rawness and feeling of speed.. m5 I would honestly not feel that uncomfortable texting and driving or sipping coffee at 155 thats how refined and detached it is.


When the m5 bites it bites bad... i took a turn regularly in the 70s to mid 80s one night not paying attention I took it at 91-94 and the car bit VERY hard, you instantly feel the weight the engineering hides so well in the 70s-80s.
I had that happen to me when driving our Mercedes S600 that we had at the time. That car felt like a Learjet on wheels with it's smooth and quiet 12 cylinder engine. The same problem in that it was tough to judge your actual speed over the road unless keeping your eyes focused on the speedometer. Highway exit ramps can particularly bite you in the ass if you're not aware.

That's also why I don't get why some people buy SUVs with the most powerful engine options. IMO, they are just accidents waiting to happen due to their high center of gravity and less stopping power due to being heavy.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 12:38 pm

Yes M5 is very disconnected, one of my biggest issues with the car. But with the right exhaust (like FTC's e-race) and maybe downpipes, it becomes extremely loud giving you perfect feedback. It is not really M5's fault specifically, there is just too much sound proofing in the 5 series. The steering (especially CP) is stellar in M5 and the suspension can be made pretty stiff in sport+. But still is nowhere near as harsh as the M3's sport+. You cannot drive on a highway extended periods of time in the M3's sport+ suspension. You CAN (and I have used sport+ exclusively) in the M5. I think sport+ in M5 is pefect (in CP). You just dont need any aftermarket suspension.

Now in contrast, there is just almost no soundproofing in the M3! Wind noise is pretty loud past 70mph and unbearable at 100 mph. You feel like you are in a wind tunnel

Maybe I should try to find a clean E90 M3 and move back
bpGx commented:
August 6, 2014, 1:55 pm

yeah no time to read video would more appreciated.
Thanks tho
beden1 commented:
August 6, 2014, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpGx View Post
yeah no time to read video would more appreciated.
Thanks tho
Your brain is a terrible thing to waste!
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 2:07 pm

I would have a no problem doing a video review if my time allows it also show various parts of the car.

I want to do a DIY guide for oil change and brake pads at some point.
K-A commented:
August 6, 2014, 2:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
The problem with me is, I like both cars, and I would buy either one of them (bought in this case) for out of necessity not because I was sold to them (like I did to E90). Let me elaborate:

- I got the M5, because of its sheer luxury, interior, V8, and exhaust note. The problem is, all of that came with its huge size and I dont mean weight. We know the car hides its weight, I mean its physical dimensions. I park in a private close garage, and I get 1.5 inches of clearance on each sides of the mirror when I enter my garage. Everything from parking the car in my garage to parallel parking it in Manhattan became issues. What I realized is, I got this car not because I actually wanted an M5, but because the new M3 lacked in those areas, the biggest issue being the lack of V8 and terrible exhaust note. I also did not like the noticeable turbo lag and the braking of the car. There were a few instances where I miscalculated braking and ended up almost hitting the guy in front of me. Never happened with the M3 before.

- I got the M3, because it was smaller, nimbler, it had much better braking distance and it was more of an easier car to manage overall. It was a lot more forgiving. M5 was a serious car that required lots of time, effort, and money to maintain. M3 is more of a smaller child of the two that can afford you to make novice mistakes and easier to manage. The problem then was the car feels really cheap. I mean really really cheap. It's much worse than the E9X with respect to the plastic they use. The leather is much better, but everything else they use is far worse. There is a lot less sound proofing, the plastic they use on the dashboard, radios, other M buttons etc is very cheap. They removed things like syncing the temperature (so you have to use 2 temperature dials to maintain A/C temperatures, which is ridiculous) or the ability to increase/decrease transmission modes. It has one button and it keeps going 1, 2, 3, then to 1 again and so on. All of this cheapness in the car is driving me crazy. The exhaust in this car is atrocious. I mean what was BMW thinking putting this thing out there. I had this happen to me so many times, people come up to me in a parking lot, "lets hear her, fire her up!", I do, give it some gas, and I can see the look on their face from the rear view mirror, that embarrassed, "wow what a ridiculous thing is now how do I look this guy in the face and act like it actually sounds good" look.

The point being, both cars were purchased due to something else being missing from the other one, NOT because I actually liked either of them.

The problem with BMW is as follows :

- They associate luxury with size. They don't have cars that are nimble, fast, also luxurious. If you want good quality, you have to get a car that is the size of a boat.
- They associate sportiness with cheapness. The M2 for example, it apparently wont have carbon fiber roof, wont have CCBs, it wont have this and it wont have that. Why is it that the number in the car's model is the determining factor of its price and luxury point?

What they need is to make each M car at the same luxury level as an M6. BUT increase the price accordingly. Make the new M3 just like an M5 from an interior point of view, but increase its base price by 15-20k. What happens next is, people will buy a car based on their size and usage requirements. Alternatively, they can make the current M2/M3/M4 the "M Performance" models for track junkies and make the M2/M3/M4 the full complete package with every M performance counterparts have with added luxury.

Now I'm in a bind. I am never going to like this car or the M5 as much as I liked my E9X. I just cannot accept how the exhaust sounds and I hate how the dashboard squeaks everytime I press buttons. I hate the fact that I have to run A/C so much that my wife on the other end of the telephone HEARS the fans and tells me to TURN IT DOWN. How ridiculous is this? None of these were issues in E9X! None! I can maybe try not to use the buttons in dashboard, but the A/C thing and exhaust is driving me nuts. A/C is really bad. And what's worse is the rear seats. Now when I'm on speed 4, the rear is like speed 1. My daughter is constantly sweating in her car seat. I dont know if the A/C in the M3 is dumbed down for efficiency or if the regular F30 is like this.
WTF, no sync a/c on the M3?! WTF is up with car manufacturers these days. It's like they're all trying to copy Porsche, of whom I'm pricing out a car and keep finding out my setup doesn't provide something as simple as electronic steering adjustment or LUMBAR SUPPORT, or voice control.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 2:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
WTF, no sync a/c on the M3?! WTF is up with car manufacturers these days. It's like they're all trying to copy Porsche, of whom I'm pricing out a car and keep finding out my setup doesn't provide something as simple as electronic steering adjustment or LUMBAR SUPPORT, or voice control.
Yes no A/C sync button and no thigh support. But overall, aside from the sync button A/C is pretty bad in this car, so bad that I'm thinking its an M3/M4 efficiency/weight savings thing, cannot be 3 series wide because its so much worse than the old car.

I also dont understand why the transmission setting is a mono direction button. Old m3, old m5, new m5 all have a bidirectional button. Why take something away that the previous generation had before?
Capobranco commented:
August 6, 2014, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
.....


The problem with BMW is as follows :

- They associate luxury with size. They don't have cars that are nimble, fast, also luxurious. If you want good quality, you have to get a car that is the size of a boat.
- [b]They associate sportiness with cheapness. .....

Sounds like an Alpina has just the thing for you.....Alpina refinent + Sportiness and great sound per Chris......


http://youtu.be/740gShZJF1M

Personally, I appreciate luxury enhancements, but in the end, luxury is secondary - I drive Ms for the "M" driving experience. As previously stated, I have not driven the new M3/M4, but it will be disappointing, if the steering is not communicative, and the exhaust does not sing. As we all know, first year BMW introductions can be dicey. Surely, a "competition" package is in the works to further enhance "spirited" driving. I could care less if there is no AC sync button. Generally, I am amazed that M can deliver a car that delivers such stunning performance, combined with daily driver utility, for so little.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 3:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Sounds like an Alpina has just the thing for you.....Alpina refinent + Sportiness and great sound per Chris......


http://youtu.be/740gShZJF1M

Personally, I appreciate luxury enhancements, but in the end, luxury is secondary - I drive Ms for the "M" driving experience. As previously stated, I have not driven the new M3/M4, but it will be disappointing, if the steering is not communicative, and the exhaust does not sing. As we all know, first year BMW introductions can be dicey. Surely, a "competition" package is in the works to further enhance "spirited" driving. I could care less if there is no AC sync button. Generally, I am amazed that M can deliver a car that delivers such stunning performance, combined with daily driver utility, for so little.
I am not complaining about a harsh ride or loud engine. I dont want more refinement. I dont want a car that drives like a 550. I still want an "M" car and i drive the **** out of my car. I just cannot stand cheapness and low quality materials. I want a classy car. Have you sat in an M5 or M6? Why cant we have the current M3 with its current driving characteristics but with M5 interior for 15k more?
Capobranco commented:
August 6, 2014, 4:30 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I am not complaining about a harsh ride or loud engine. I dont want more refinement. I dont want a car that drives like a 550. I still want an "M" car and i drive the **** out of my car. I just cannot stand cheapness and low quality materials. I want a classy car. Have you sat in an M5 or M6? Why cant we have the current M3 with its current driving characteristics but with M5 interior for 15k more?
I am very familiar with both the M5 and M6, and I understand your point about luxury fittings. In terms of my passions and desires, the M3/M4 are just about pitch perfect in terms of performance - luxury equation. In general, I'll take my M4 with the $15K "discount" sans luxury enhancements. Both M5 and M6 feel way too ostentatious to me - give me a "purposeful" M3. .... different strokes for different folks......Given your desires are shared by others - perhaps there is a market for the Alpina B3 in the US.....
FTC commented:
August 6, 2014, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I am not complaining about a harsh ride or loud engine. I dont want more refinement. I dont want a car that drives like a 550. I still want an "M" car and i drive the **** out of my car. I just cannot stand cheapness and low quality materials. I want a classy car. Have you sat in an M5 or M6? Why cant we have the current M3 with its current driving characteristics but with M5 interior for 15k more?
WOW ! DerStig you are tough. I think you need to have your own Magazine or video series critiqueing cars, your detail is very good when it comes to BMW'S. I am not as detailed as you are although I try to be as detailed and honest as I can. I will tell you this, I have not owned both cars like you have but I have test driven the m3/m4. I felt the exact same way you did the minute I sat in the M4. The problem is when you come out of a M5 or M6 and go into a M3/M4 you are already spoiled so you better be doing it for the right reasons. I agree with your complaints 100 % about the M5 dimensions. I am lucky, up here in maine we do not have to deal with parking garages that often and when I have been to boston and parked in a parking garage it has not been a problem for me. Although I have heard the horror stories about new york city parking. Yes I agree with you again about everything about the M5 is a major deal, although I think any time you are dealing anything of really high quality there are high maintenance issues that come with it.

Back to my test drive. Right off I knew there was NO comparison between the interior of a M5 and the options offered. So next was the driving experience. The driving experience was very very good. I won't get into the specifics because it is obvious that you know how good the car drives. The seats were comfortable, but not as comfortable as the M5. Looks are a personal preference, but I think the M5 is the better looking M car by far. So the last thing for me was performance. I gave the nod to the M5 when it came to the engine and gave the nod to the M3 when it came to handling, although not by much. BMW M has done a fantastic job of hiding the weight of the M5 when it comes to driving dynamics.

At the of the day when the test drive was over and I got back into my M5 right away I knew which one I liked better. And after that I had a 3 hour drive to stowe vermont to solidify my feelings about the two M cars. Although I do agree with you about why bmw can't add $ 15,000.00 to the M3 and give it almost the same luxury appointments as the M5.

You need to remeber that in order to get the M3 down to 3550 lbs. they absolutely look at every possible way to shed weight and all the complaints that you currently have is what you end up with. This is why to me( and this is personal preferance) the M5 is the "better" a to z M car, but unfortunately it comes with a stiff price. Remeber what I have said a few times already, " be careful what you wish for". I know this is not what you want to hear but if you just can not live with the cheaper appointments and less luxury of the new M3 TAKE A LOOK AT A LOW MILEAGED USED M5 OR M6 COUPE. I really think after listening to you now that the M5/M6 has enough performance to keep you happy with all the luxury you could ever need.

As far as the disconnectiveness feeling of the M5 I will say this, THE M5 WITH A SIX SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION IS ALOT MORE OF A CONNECTED DRIVE THAN THE DCT ESPECIALLY WITH THE E-RACE, although remeber up here in maine we have alot less stop and go traffic to deal with. Although I have driven my M5 in boston traffic and it does not bother me at all. Do I wish I had the DCT ? Answer = NO WAY. When I drive my M5 it reminds me of my first bmw with a stick, a 1986 325es manual, you can't get the smile off my face.

I do hear what you are saying about going back to the e 90 M3, the problem for me would be the lack of low end torque. I personally love that feeling.
jbird2345 commented:
August 6, 2014, 5:37 pm

Bottom line...these are different cars. If you want a plush interior and a ride that kind of disconnects you to the road, then M5 has the bells and whistles. Sure it has power, but it also has weight and is horrible on gas. Do people really care about plastic buttons. The AC issue in the new M3 is interesting...what's up with that? Haven't seen that before.
SuperTerp commented:
August 6, 2014, 6:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Bottom line...these are different cars. If you want a plush interior and a ride that kind of disconnects you to the road, then M5 has the bells and whistles. Sure it has power, but it also has weight and is horrible on gas. Do people really care about plastic buttons. The AC issue in the new M3 is interesting...what's up with that? Haven't seen that before.

I mean I'd say the m6 with cp is the best of both worlds but you'll pay for it both in starting price and in depreciation lol.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Bottom line...these are different cars. If you want a plush interior and a ride that kind of disconnects you to the road, then M5 has the bells and whistles. Sure it has power, but it also has weight and is horrible on gas. Do people really care about plastic buttons. The AC issue in the new M3 is interesting...what's up with that? Haven't seen that before.
A/C is terrible in this car. It was 80F today and I had to run the A/C on 4th speed and 68F. It also gets too loud past 3rd speed. The back of the car also never cools down. My daughter sweats all the time, every time I pick her up from her car seat, her t-shirt is all wet. This was never a problem in M5 or the E90 M3. She is almost 4 years old now, and spent 3.5 years in the old M3 and 2 months or so in the M5.
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:31 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
WOW ! DerStig you are tough. I think you need to have your own Magazine or video series critiqueing cars, your detail is very good when it comes to BMW'S. I am not as detailed as you are although I try to be as detailed and honest as I can. I will tell you this, I have not owned both cars like you have but I have test driven the m3/m4. I felt the exact same way you did the minute I sat in the M4. The problem is when you come out of a M5 or M6 and go into a M3/M4 you are already spoiled so you better be doing it for the right reasons. I agree with your complaints 100 % about the M5 dimensions. I am lucky, up here in maine we do not have to deal with parking garages that often and when I have been to boston and parked in a parking garage it has not been a problem for me. Although I have heard the horror stories about new york city parking. Yes I agree with you again about everything about the M5 is a major deal, although I think any time you are dealing anything of really high quality there are high maintenance issues that come with it.

Back to my test drive. Right off I knew there was NO comparison between the interior of a M5 and the options offered. So next was the driving experience. The driving experience was very very good. I won't get into the specifics because it is obvious that you know how good the car drives. The seats were comfortable, but not as comfortable as the M5. Looks are a personal preference, but I think the M5 is the better looking M car by far. So the last thing for me was performance. I gave the nod to the M5 when it came to the engine and gave the nod to the M3 when it came to handling, although not by much. BMW M has done a fantastic job of hiding the weight of the M5 when it comes to driving dynamics.

At the of the day when the test drive was over and I got back into my M5 right away I knew which one I liked better. And after that I had a 3 hour drive to stowe vermont to solidify my feelings about the two M cars. Although I do agree with you about why bmw can't add $ 15,000.00 to the M3 and give it almost the same luxury appointments as the M5.

You need to remeber that in order to get the M3 down to 3550 lbs. they absolutely look at every possible way to shed weight and all the complaints that you currently have is what you end up with. This is why to me( and this is personal preferance) the M5 is the "better" a to z M car, but unfortunately it comes with a stiff price. Remeber what I have said a few times already, " be careful what you wish for". I know this is not what you want to hear but if you just can not live with the cheaper appointments and less luxury of the new M3 TAKE A LOOK AT A LOW MILEAGED USED M5 OR M6 COUPE. I really think after listening to you now that the M5/M6 has enough performance to keep you happy with all the luxury you could ever need.

As far as the disconnectiveness feeling of the M5 I will say this, THE M5 WITH A SIX SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION IS ALOT MORE OF A CONNECTED DRIVE THAN THE DCT ESPECIALLY WITH THE E-RACE, although remeber up here in maine we have alot less stop and go traffic to deal with. Although I have driven my M5 in boston traffic and it does not bother me at all. Do I wish I had the DCT ? Answer = NO WAY. When I drive my M5 it reminds me of my first bmw with a stick, a 1986 325es manual, you can't get the smile off my face.

I do hear what you are saying about going back to the e 90 M3, the problem for me would be the lack of low end torque. I personally love that feeling.
I am actually working with someone for an ED M5. Don't be surprised if you see me here trading my car.

What I realized with this car is, a sound of a car says so much about its presence. We cannot just say "oh well, it's a great car and does X and Y so well, but sound is not one of its strong suits". Sound is probably the most important aspect of the car in a daily driver. And once you are past that 1000 mile honey moon period, the lawn mower starts annoying the heck out of you.
jbird2345 commented:
August 6, 2014, 9:58 pm

I don't really find the sound that loud - it's all preference i suppose. I suspect if you're driving hundreds of miles a clip, maybe it gets annoying - not sure - not really how I plan on using the vehicle. The M5 is a great car - definitely quieter and much more of a luxury feel. For me, it didn't give me a rush. Maybe i'm off on that one.

The AC thing is concerning...huh. Anyone else have issues with the AC. Have you talked to your dealership about it - the service guys? Do they care and/or have any info?
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
I don't really find the sound that loud - it's all preference i suppose. I suspect if you're driving hundreds of miles a clip, maybe it gets annoying - not sure - not really how I plan on using the vehicle. The M5 is a great car - definitely quieter and much more of a luxury feel. For me, it didn't give me a rush. Maybe i'm off on that one.

The AC thing is concerning...huh. Anyone else have issues with the AC. Have you talked to your dealership about it - the service guys? Do they care and/or have any info?
I checked 3 other M3/M4s around where I live, they were all the same. So did not bother asking the dealership for the A/C.
jbird2345 commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:07 pm

Are you gonna go bust some heads with the dealership or BMW...kind of crazy a car this expensive has poor AC?
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Are you gonna go bust some heads with the dealership or BMW...kind of crazy a car this expensive has poor AC?
There is nothing I can do. As said, I have managed to look at 3 other new M3/M4s (2 M3s and 1 M4) in addition to mine, so that's 4 cars, and they were all the same. The squeaks and rattles are also all the same so is the wheel bearing issues. Having spent so much time on these M cars, I can tell the difference between production issues and design issues. The A/C issue is not going to go away. We need to manage our expectations.
jbird2345 commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:16 pm

What is the wheel bearing issue... as you can see i'm just catching up?

Hmmm... if you had to do it again, would you not have gotten the M3?
DerStig commented:
August 6, 2014, 10:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
What is the wheel bearing issue... as you can see i'm just catching up?

Hmmm... if you had to do it again, would you not have gotten the M3?
There is loud clicking coming from the front wheels upon tight turns at slow speeds. This is a very common issue in these cars as well as some of the M5/M6s. So far my car has had this issue twice in 2400 miles. Very mild. Some people have this much worse, there are people who have had their M5's wheel bearings switched 3 times and the issue keeps coming back. It's not really an M3 issue. Its one of those things thats not going to go away and is a characteristics of the car.

I probably would not have gotten the M3 if I could do it all over again. The previous M3 is a far better car than this one in so many aspects as a daily driver. If you are tracking competitively and into time comparisons more than the car itself, then it's another question. On paper it is better, but we are not "paper". We are human beings. If you know what I mean
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 8:39 am

Interesting. I'm really confused now what to do. I was going to pull the trigger on a new M3 but after reading this I'm wondering if i should with this pre-owned 2013 M5 that is fully loaded. I've driven both... definitely different experiences. The feel of the M5 was so much different - definitely more refined, more luxurious... i live in a city, so not sure how much i'm going to be able to maximize each car. I also do not typically go on long drives, so not sure how much the exhaust note will impact me. That said, the gas savings on the M3 is more compelling. I would imagine the M5 is more costly to own overall.

The 2013 is listed as a corporate fleet vehicle...with 15K miles. That too scares me. Was told it was not used for driving school or track stuff, but who knows.

I'm way confused at this point. I feel like i'm going to be annoyed one way or another.
DerStig commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:00 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Interesting. I'm really confused now what to do. I was going to pull the trigger on a new M3 but after reading this I'm wondering if i should with this pre-owned 2013 M5 that is fully loaded. I've driven both... definitely different experiences. The feel of the M5 was so much different - definitely more refined, more luxurious... i live in a city, so not sure how much i'm going to be able to maximize each car. I also do not typically go on long drives, so not sure how much the exhaust note will impact me. That said, the gas savings on the M3 is more compelling. I would imagine the M5 is more costly to own overall.

The 2013 is listed as a corporate fleet vehicle...with 15K miles. That too scares me. Was told it was not used for driving school or track stuff, but who knows.

I'm way confused at this point. I feel like i'm going to be annoyed one way or another.
I would not get a 2013 M5 unless I wanted to heavily mod it:

- The steering rack (the entire steering hardware) is very old and is one of the things that many people complained about the original M5. BMW made a lot of changes to it and upgraded all cars beginning 2014.
- It's pre-lci, and the LCI for the 5 series has had a lot of changes.
- The exhaust with the mufflers is too quiet, again you need to modify the exhaust.
- The suspension is too soft, you need new sway bars or springs, etc.

2013 M5 in its stock form drives nothing like the M5 now (2014). I would never buy one.

Now in terms of M5 vs M3, cost of ownership in an M5 is a lot more than in M3. Gas is ridiculously good in the M3. No matter how hard I try, I cannot get it below 18 mpg. Same driving pattern would yield 12-13mpg in the M5. That's around 60% of improvement. Everything from insurance, to repairs, to tires and so on will cost 20-40% more in M5.

If the cheapness in the M3 does not bother, M3 is the car. It just does not drive like a luxury sports car from Germany. I have sat in the next stringray recently and that thing has better seats and interior than the M4. Sad but true. BMW is playing the corporate game of how to maximize profit. They start from 7 series, and start taking features away. By the time they go from 7 to 6 to 5 to 4 and 3, not much left really.

The issues I mentioned regarding the M3, like A/C, wheel bearings, and so on are not really issues. They are not going to go away. Squeaky brakes was like this in the M5, did not go away. Wheel bearing, again same thing. Certain things there is a pattern and they are too common. The only would be to make core changes to the vehicle's design, which BMW will not do. So don't let these things hold you back.
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:08 am

I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight. I did not know that about the M5.

I know the engine noise bothers you a lot, which I guess is something i would have to take a chance on. You don't really get a sense of it in terms of how it would affect you over time until you actually have the car for a while. That said, i would be doing mostly city driving - which is unfortunate to some degree since i won't really be able to use the car to half of its potential, but that's how that goes. Do you like the seats in the M3?

Let me ask you something else... went out with a couple this past weekend (some friend of my wife's)...anyway, the dude had a new cadillac CTS Vsport (he made sure to tell me it was not the V)...seemed like a nice ride though. Had some energy and was fully loaded with the bells and whistles. I know they are different cars, but I played around on the website build this weekend, certainly a bit cheaper than the M3. Any experience with that car?
MMME30W commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:17 am

This is turning into a very good thread!
SuperTerp commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Interesting. I'm really confused now what to do. I was going to pull the trigger on a new M3 but after reading this I'm wondering if i should with this pre-owned 2013 M5 that is fully loaded. I've driven both... definitely different experiences. The feel of the M5 was so much different - definitely more refined, more luxurious... i live in a city, so not sure how much i'm going to be able to maximize each car. I also do not typically go on long drives, so not sure how much the exhaust note will impact me. That said, the gas savings on the M3 is more compelling. I would imagine the M5 is more costly to own overall.

The 2013 is listed as a corporate fleet vehicle...with 15K miles. That too scares me. Was told it was not used for driving school or track stuff, but who knows.

I'm way confused at this point. I feel like i'm going to be annoyed one way or another.
2013 is a different story
-its pre LCI
-slower navi [I can't tell you how much I liked the newer navigation over last gen]
-cant comment on if the hud is worse
-I don't like the steering wheel as much compared to the new M ones
-not Competition package capable...
-newer ones don't drink oil like the old ones

Everyone is saying though that the adjustable coil over kit and anti roll bars from dinan make a MASSIVE difference in bodyroll [should be about 4200 installed with labor for both so factor in 5k to get rid of that sedan bodyroll ontop of the price but it will make a massive difference and unless your parking in DC,NYC, tight garages I doubt most could drive an m5 with suspension mods much slower than a stock m4].

I keep saying M6. Lower displacement, less weight, has rollbar upgrades available, that thing would be a monster with Competition package and i'd bet my m4 title VERY VERY few if ANY people who drove it could do much better in an M4.
\

DerStig laid it out before I saw it but you can not beat the gas milage I beat on it hard and cant get under 12... I routinely saw the m5 between 8-19.8[my best] and it sat around 16mpgs... I'm at 23 with a little bit of an attempt to control my gas usage this time around... All with a 15 gallon tank vs. 21.1
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:46 am

Yeah...it seems at the end of the day, given the few items that have been raised regarding the M3/M4, at the end of the day it is a better bet than the 2013 M5 for a variety of reasons.

I guess you have to just put your best foot forward and see where it lands. I suspect at the end of the day, the M3/M4 will make me (and most people) super happy.
DerStig commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:49 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight. I did not know that about the M5.

I know the engine noise bothers you a lot, which I guess is something i would have to take a chance on. You don't really get a sense of it in terms of how it would affect you over time until you actually have the car for a while. That said, i would be doing mostly city driving - which is unfortunate to some degree since i won't really be able to use the car to half of its potential, but that's how that goes. Do you like the seats in the M3?

Let me ask you something else... went out with a couple this past weekend (some friend of my wife's)...anyway, the dude had a new cadillac CTS Vsport (he made sure to tell me it was not the V)...seemed like a nice ride though. Had some energy and was fully loaded with the bells and whistles. I know they are different cars, but I played around on the website build this weekend, certainly a bit cheaper than the M3. Any experience with that car?
Really not into the cadillac styling. I like the understated, classic, modern look of the BMWs over any other car. I love their interior and exterior styling, their engineering, and more importantly how easy it is to do basic maintenance on them. There is a huge BMW community online, far larger than any other car manufacturer when it comes to these top end M cars. For an E9X M3, you can do any maintenance item yourself from spark plugs, to differential fluid change to wheel bearing replacement.

The seats of the M3 superb. To be honest with you, my butt and back cannot tell the difference between the M5 seat and the M3 seat. I'm quite a fit guy who works out all the time, had I been a more typical guy with the big beer belly and some fat around the back area, I could see a problem with it, because the seats are quite thin and they wrap you really well. To give you some perspective, in the M5, I had to use the side bolsters in their MAXIMUM position all the time. But the seat has enough cushion, it doesn't feel cheap or bad at all. It's the same merino leather they use in both cars, so I have no complaints in that area.

The back of the seats are plastic and it does look cheesy on colors that are other than black. In a black leather car, the back of the seat goes well with the leather color and you can't tell that it's not leather. In a red or silverstone interior, it looks really bad and cheap (compared to the M5).

You can certainly get used to extracting a lot of power from these cars in daily driving. I live in NYC pretty much (Manhattan) and if I can have fun with these cars, so can you. You just need to be careful :

- Watch the potholes. I check the potholes more than I check the car in front of me.
- Never parallel park and if you must, make sure there is a lot of space in front and in the back.
- Never go to valet parking.
- Never go to one of those close tight downtown parking garages.
- Park your car as far away as possible with no shopping carts around in places like walmart and target.
- Don't tailgate people in highways because of the rocks that are everywhere.

I mean I have had many M cars living in the city, it wasn't easy. Sure, sometimes I told myself, "man I wish I had that X5 instead and not care about any of this". But really those times are limited.

The problem with the M5 is its practicality. It's a gorgeous car, so beautiful, so powerful, sounds so much better, but it requires gentle care:

- The car is big. It's 11 inches longer and 4 inches wider than an already large M3. Parking it in garages, street, so on is very difficult. Sure you can get used to it like the 70 year old lady driving the yellow school bus, but is it fun doing that stuff? No. Every time you drive the car, it gives you goose bumps in that regard.
- Tires are huge and expensive. You cannot go to your michelin tire shop and pay $15 to swap these tires. You have to either find an independent shop that can handle $1300 wheels and $450 tires or go to BMW. Changing each tire will cost you $50-75. Change all 4 of them, that's as much as the price of a tire in the M3. M3 tires are smaller, wheels are smaller, anyone can change them. I maintain my own set of wheels for all my cars for winter and always swap them out myself. Now in the M5, I tried taking one wheel off for cleaning the brake dust once, I had to have my wife help me put it back on. Those 20" wheels are HUGE. They are so HEAVY too. I work out as I said, and I could not hold the wheel with 1 hand and align the bolts. It's also a lot easier to scratch and put dents on these wheels. The larger the wheel, higher the chances of damaging the wheel (exponentially).
- The interior requires so much care. Full leather is really full in this car. The entire doors, back of the seats, dashboard, every area that you can touch is leather. If you got kids, keep a bottle of bourbon by your seat to calm yourself down because you will get stressed just getting them in and out of the car. No matter how careful you are, the leather will be in a terrible condition in a month's time. The alcantara roof is gorgeous, but so is impractical. If you touch with any sort of food or fruit by accident, good luck cleaning that stuff.
- Gas money as I said before is a lot. I mean a lot a lot. I paid almost $600 in a month for gas in that car and same usage cost me less than $300. That was with almost 2500 miles driving. Now if you don't have a heavy foot, it actually gets great mileage. So put things in perspective, if you drive in granny mode in efficient, M5 will get 24.5 mpg in highway, M3 will get 30. M5 will get 17mpg in city, M3 will get 19. So in city driving, there is not much difference between them (in granny mode). Highway is something else. But if you have a heavy foot, the difference between them gradually changes. I can manage a good 25-26 mpg in highway in the M3 with aggressive shifts, same driving would yield a mere 16-17 for the M5.
- Insurance is a lot more expensive. It's around $80-90 more a month than the M3.

But these are all things that are money related. If you have the financial means to afford both, you should get the M5. M3 is not a classy car. It is an aggressive looking sports car. It's a track oriented car. It's not as fast as M5 as many people predicted. It won't beat an M5 in a straight line race from a dig, from a roll. It feels much more powerful. You are also paying a ton of money for an M3 that has too much cheap plastic and a terrible sound.

Oh speaking of sound....

I met a guy today who had downpipes in his M5 and an eisenmann race exhaust. I didn't have my camera with me, but that thing was awesome. I wanted to record a video of it and now I feel so pissed off driving my M3. It sounds like a joke compared to the e-race in the M5. Now eisenmann will come out with an exhaust for the M3 as well, but no exhaust can change the characteristics of the exhaust sound. They can only make it louder. It's never going to sound like a "V" engine. Even the V6 in GTR which is also turbo sounds better than the M3.

M3 is a more reasonable car. M5 is an irresponsible financial choice
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Awesome response and detail boss. Super helpful on so many fronts.

If i had no wife, no kids, then we'd be having a different conversation about vehicle, for sure. I'm not a big dude either, so it sounds like the seats are good to go. Your last line sums it up for me when it comes to comparing with the M5. I think i would be regretting it down the road from a wallet perspective.

Is there a "perfect" car - always going to be subjective. The potential cheapness of certain materials doesn't bother me too much... I gather the car is about giving you goose bumps and letting you feel the drive. I think i'm about the point where my next ride would be a more luxury-suited vehicle.

You purchase or lease yours?
DerStig commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Awesome response and detail boss. Super helpful on so many fronts.

If i had no wife, no kids, then we'd be having a different conversation about vehicle, for sure. I'm not a big dude either, so it sounds like the seats are good to go. Your last line sums it up for me when it comes to comparing with the M5. I think i would be regretting it down the road from a wallet perspective.

Is there a "perfect" car - always going to be subjective. The potential cheapness of certain materials doesn't bother me too much... I gather the car is about giving you goose bumps and letting you feel the drive. I think i'm about the point where my next ride would be a more luxury-suited vehicle.

You purchase or lease yours?
Purchase.

I'm most likely going to sell this car and do a ED lease for M5.
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:39 am

Really... that unhappy with it? You're talking a new M5, right?
beden1 commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight. I did not know that about the M5.

I know the engine noise bothers you a lot, which I guess is something i would have to take a chance on. You don't really get a sense of it in terms of how it would affect you over time until you actually have the car for a while. That said, i would be doing mostly city driving - which is unfortunate to some degree since i won't really be able to use the car to half of its potential, but that's how that goes. Do you like the seats in the M3?

Let me ask you something else... went out with a couple this past weekend (some friend of my wife's)...anyway, the dude had a new cadillac CTS Vsport (he made sure to tell me it was not the V)...seemed like a nice ride though. Had some energy and was fully loaded with the bells and whistles. I know they are different cars, but I played around on the website build this weekend, certainly a bit cheaper than the M3. Any experience with that car?
If power and sporty handling are not your thing, then why not consider a 535i or 535xi as opposed to an M5/M4/M3? They are very nice cars that can be ordered with luxury amenities and you won't have to worry as much about poor road surfaces, etc., especially if primarily doing city driving. The 5 Series also has a cheaper point of entry as compared to the M5. IMO, the M5 is an enthusiasts car, and if you don't think you will be able to take advantage of it's performance capabilities, then why get one?

The issue I have with the Cadillac CTS/CTS V is that they feel a bit cramped and the trunk space is limited.

Test drive some cars to see what floats your boat.
DerStig commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:45 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Really... that unhappy with it? You're talking a new M5, right?
Yes new M5.

Life is too short. I always wanted an ED.

I still don't know yet, most likely "sensible" part of my brain will prevent me from doing it because I will take a huge hit in the M3 trade.

The thing that bothers me is, I want to mod the M3, exhaust, JB4, splitter, spoiler, etc. I was going to drop 6-7k mods on it, but I really dont see myself driving this car for 5-6 years and dont want to spend money on a car I am going to get out of at some point.

If it sounded like a V8 or a GTR, I would not complain about A/C or cheap plastic or all other things like the 15 gallon gas tank and having to fill up ever 2 days.
SuperTerp commented:
August 7, 2014, 10:58 am

^I dont think as huge as an m5... Maybe mid to higher 60s is my bet. M5 I tried GTR trade in with 3k miles and they were trying to give me 84
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 11:25 am

The trunk size on the new M3 is smaller than the new CTS, at least that is what the website dimensions state.

I have to go try the Vsport... different car, also different clientele seem to be behind the wheel.

As far as the non-M 5 rides... I tested one of those...nice, didn't get me all jacked up.
jbird2345 commented:
August 7, 2014, 11:28 am

I guess it cuts both ways... some people like the sound, some don't. You seem like much more of a car expert and aficionado. I'm just some random dude who is just over 40 and thinks a car is going to help me not feeling as old. I'm sure i'll be over whatever the car provides - be it an M3 or something else, like an S6, and still feel 900 years old. I was planning to purchase...

If you sell your M3 Private...will you fare better?
FTC commented:
August 7, 2014, 1:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I would not get a 2013 M5 unless I wanted to heavily mod it:

- The steering rack (the entire steering hardware) is very old and is one of the things that many people complained about the original M5. BMW made a lot of changes to it and upgraded all cars beginning 2014.
- It's pre-lci, and the LCI for the 5 series has had a lot of changes.
- The exhaust with the mufflers is too quiet, again you need to modify the exhaust.
- The suspension is too soft, you need new sway bars or springs, etc.

2013 M5 in its stock form drives nothing like the M5 now (2014). I would never buy one.

Now in terms of M5 vs M3, cost of ownership in an M5 is a lot more than in M3. Gas is ridiculously good in the M3. No matter how hard I try, I cannot get it below 18 mpg. Same driving pattern would yield 12-13mpg in the M5. That's around 60% of improvement. Everything from insurance, to repairs, to tires and so on will cost 20-40% more in M5.

If the cheapness in the M3 does not bother, M3 is the car. It just does not drive like a luxury sports car from Germany. I have sat in the next stringray recently and that thing has better seats and interior than the M4. Sad but true. BMW is playing the corporate game of how to maximize profit. They start from 7 series, and start taking features away. By the time they go from 7 to 6 to 5 to 4 and 3, not much left really.

The issues I mentioned regarding the M3, like A/C, wheel bearings, and so on are not really issues. They are not going to go away. Squeaky brakes was like this in the M5, did not go away. Wheel bearing, again same thing. Certain things there is a pattern and they are too common. The only would be to make core changes to the vehicle's design, which BMW will not do. So don't let these things hold you back.
You hurt my feelings . I would not be afraid of a 2013 M5, espcially a later build date one. The only thing the 2013 M5 needs is a good aftermarket exhaust, E-RACE, and if you can afford it dinan front and rear sways and the coil over suspension kit. You might be able to find a fully loaded 2013 M5 for say $ 75,000.00. Add on the dinan sways and suspension and the eisenmann race exhaust and you are at $ 82,800.00 for a loaded 2013 M5. And what I am hearing the dinan sways and suspension kit actually are working better than the CP package. You would probably be saving yourself at least $ 10,000.00 matched up against a used 2014 CP and alot more against a brand new 2014-2015 M5 CP.

My 2013 has yet to dissapoint me when driving on the edge.
K-A commented:
August 7, 2014, 1:15 pm

I would definitely post an ad here before you trade it in and get reamed on that. I'm sure lots of members, myself included would be interested in considering a well equipped M3 going for a nice chunk off of MSRP, even if it's already been "broken in" some.
SuperTerp commented:
August 7, 2014, 2:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
I would definitely post an ad here before you trade it in and get reamed on that. I'm sure lots of members, myself included would be interested in considering a well equipped M3 going for a nice chunk off of MSRP, even if it's already been "broken in" some.
Buy mine I'll be out of it when the Hellcat is here and probably out of that for the z06, then probably back to an m6 if I don't make a stop in the new C63
K-A commented:
August 7, 2014, 2:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Buy mine I'll be out of it when the Hellcat is here and probably out of that for the z06, then probably back to an m6 if I don't make a stop in the new C63
Lol. With the way you drive it, I may want an extra discount.

I actually would really be interested. However, I'd need an M3 for the extra bedroom space.

Learning more toward Porsche if I go "full budget" for my next car, but I'll put it out there: Anyone with a super low mileage M3 who's not happy with it and would rather sell it to a fellow forum member for around what a dealer would take them to the cleaners for, hit me up.
SuperTerp commented:
August 7, 2014, 2:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Lol. With the way you drive it, I may want an extra discount.

I actually would really be interested. However, I'd need an M3 for the extra bedroom space.

Learning more toward Porsche if I go "full budget" for my next car, but I'll put it out there: Anyone with a super low mileage M3 who's not happy with it and would rather sell it to a fellow forum member for around what a dealer would take them to the cleaners for, hit me up.
lol I'm just so lazy to private party sale same reason i just rebuy my laser jammers although I calculated out what i lost leaving those on and it was quite the pretty penny
K-A commented:
August 7, 2014, 3:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol I'm just so lazy to private party sale same reason i just rebuy my laser jammers although I calculated out what i lost leaving those on and it was quite the pretty penny
Dude, for real. Private Party sales will always net a bigger profit. You probably don't wanna calculate it.

Though, the convenience is worth something in itself, of trading a car in.
getz commented:
August 7, 2014, 3:09 pm

I have read this thread with interest and am fascinated by the responses. I have owned numerous BMWs in the past and 5 years ago delved into the Porsche world with an 07 911 Turbo. In that time I have also owned a 911 Carrera S and currently my custom built 73 911. The M5-M3 debate here seems difficult to resolve given the scope of differences (mass, power, luxury amenities) and I doubt many in this thread will ever be happy with either car given the deficiencies that they have perceived for both models. I wonder if the solution is simply an entirely different car. I have not driven the new M3/4 although have driven an M5 so I have a limited perspective. I do know that I would take a 997.2 911 Turbo in heart beat of either car. You may find that you need a digital car for the real world (my Dinan 550xi) and an analog car for your fun days. My 2200 lb 73 911 with a 340 hp turbo motor is an entirely unique experience, and will run away from the majority of todays sports cars. To each his own!
beden1 commented:
August 7, 2014, 4:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by getz View Post
I have read this thread with interest and am fascinated by the responses. I have owned numerous BMWs in the past and 5 years ago delved into the Porsche world with an 07 911 Turbo. In that time I have also owned a 911 Carrera S and currently my custom built 73 911. The M5-M3 debate here seems difficult to resolve given the scope of differences (mass, power, luxury amenities) and I doubt many in this thread will ever be happy with either car given the deficiencies that they have perceived for both models. I wonder if the solution is simply an entirely different car. I have not driven the new M3/4 although have driven an M5 so I have a limited perspective. I do know that I would take a 997.2 911 Turbo in heart beat of either car. You may find that you need a digital car for the real world (my Dinan 550xi) and an analog car for your fun days. My 2200 lb 73 911 with a 340 hp turbo motor is an entirely unique experience, and will run away from the majority of todays sports cars. To each his own!
I agree that once you get into a Porsche Carrera S or above that these other cars are not as desirable, but unless I'm mistaken, many of the posters in this thread are interested in a true 4 seater. IMO, the 911 does not qualify as such.
getz commented:
August 7, 2014, 8:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I agree that once you get into a Porsche Carrera S or above that these other cars are not as desirable, but unless I'm mistaken, many of the posters in this thread are interested in a true 4 seater. IMO, the 911 does not qualify as such.
True, although I have stuffed my kids in the back on numerous occasions (granted all less then age 10). Is the M4 backseat pretty room as my 550 is pretty tight for larger adults?
beden1 commented:
August 7, 2014, 9:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by getz View Post
True, although I have stuffed my kids in the back on numerous occasions (granted all less then age 10). Is the M4 backseat pretty room as my 550 is pretty tight for larger adults?
I sat in the back seats of a 435i sedan and it had more room than my E93 335is, so yes, it would be very roomy for your under 10 year old kids.
Capobranco commented:
August 8, 2014, 1:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by getz View Post
.... and an analog car for your fun days. My 2200 lb 73 911 with a 340 hp turbo motor is an entirely unique experience,...
yep..."an entirely unique experience"....my modded '930 was the most fun I ever had in a car that was moving....


Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I agree that once you get into a Porsche Carrera S or above that these other cars are not as desirable, but unless I'm mistaken, many of the posters in this thread are interested in a true 4 seater. IMO, the 911 does not qualify as such.
Lo, by-decree what “qualifies”
has been declared (opinion-wise)
But “or above” we shall dispute,
There really is a substitute.
DerStig commented:
August 8, 2014, 9:44 am

My car is up for grabs.

I am currently working with a few people/dealership for trading it. Depending on what I will get for it, I may or may not go ahead with the process. That being said, if I'm still driving this car 6 or 12 months from today, do know it was because I couldn't take a huge hit in the trade and was stuck with it, nothing more. Maybe it's for the best because more time is better for E9X M3 prices to go down as well as more used F10 M5s to come to the market with 2014 models. I may do either, a) get a E9X M3 or maybe another daily driver or b) get a new 2015 M5 or used 2014 M5.

If you are interested in though, PM me. I have a fully loaded M3 80.4k sticker. It has every option possible minus carbon ceramic brakes. Black interior and the black glossy wheels.
K-A commented:
August 8, 2014, 10:11 am

I'm interested, but I was kind of hoping it'd be a depreciated version of my build MSRP ($73-ishK) . That baby's loaded up. How many miles on it?
DerStig commented:
August 8, 2014, 10:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
I'm interested, but I was kind of hoping it'd be a depreciated version of my build MSRP ($73-ishK) . That baby's loaded up. How many miles on it?
Lets keep this thread about the car not about selling it. I'll PM you some details.
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 9:28 am

Looks like I might be stuck with this car for a while. Once you remove the blinders, even in the best case scenario of getting a 2-3k hit on the trade, including the taxes and gap, I might be looking into a 10k loss just for driving this car for a month. As much as I want a V8 (E9X or F10), at the end of the day, you have got the draw the line somewhere and stop the madness. I'll probably drive it for another 8-9 months and try to get out of it before LCI is out and keep it low miles.
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 9:36 am

My wife and I were having dinner last night and I just want to say what she told me about this car. Her opinion is her opinion only and does not represent in any way shape of form what I think about the car. She is a very strong opinionited person and usually says what she really believes in her mind.

So we are sitting down, and she goes : "I know that you have had very high hopes for this car and as much as I think spending this kind of money on ANY car is completely idiotic, I have always been by your side and supported you. That being said, I can't help but have to tell you that this car (M3) is very disappointing. I don't know much about the cars (she actually has driven 6MT for 10 years and she several times jumped started our car in college when we were broke and even changed a flat tire once, so she knows MUCH MORE than an average women about cars, but she is being humble), but what was BMW thinking making this car? It sounds no different than a Honda Civic (exact words). If you remove the fiber glass (she means carbon fiber trim) and the leather dash, the car looks nothing like a German car, but a hyped up cheap Japanese car from inside. If I knew that we were going to go through this (E90 -> F10 -> F80) and this was going to be the end result, I would have never let you return the E90. "

She doesn't know that I am trying to get out of the car actually. My pride won't let me tell her that and I cannot sell the idea to her ever. Going from M5 to this car was so radical that she was like "you do this, I don't ever want to hear from you about cars ever again, I will shut up and drive it. But don't ever come to me with problems."

Sorry, I know this is the stuff BMW and a lot of CAs here don't want you to hear. But I am telling you exactly as it happened.

I think there is a huge hype about this car and once the hype dies, many people will realize the same thing we are.
MMCRACING commented:
August 10, 2014, 12:18 pm

Wouldn't it be cheaper to drive the car with ear plugs all the time?
jbird2345 commented:
August 10, 2014, 12:39 pm

You seem to really hate this car...
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 1:12 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
You seem to really hate this car...
Thats a strong word.

Just disappointed especially after all the "hype". Its a great car otherwise.
Flstate commented:
August 10, 2014, 1:35 pm

U really hate this car! Well this is one bad review out of many good reviews...


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jbird2345 commented:
August 10, 2014, 2:41 pm

Well.. either way. Not sure I agree on the Honda Civic comparison, but to each his/her own. Hopefully you'll either like it more over time or be able to get out of it.
Flstate commented:
August 10, 2014, 2:47 pm

Making me want to cancel my order:


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DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird2345 View Post
Well.. either way. Not sure I agree on the Honda Civic comparison, but to each his/her own. Hopefully you'll either like it more over time or be able to get out of it.
It actually sounds like a modified honda civic. When I go home, I will post a video of a civic and my car.

Also, I dont think there is another person in the world who is in the same situation as I am and was able to own all these three cars back to back in such a short period of time.

A lot of good reviews are from people who either never owned a BMW before or come from a "lesser" car. All these " O M G " reviews are hardly creditble.

I guess BMW shot themselves on the foot with the E9X at the end of the day. Such a high bar for any other car to match and exceed.
MMCRACING commented:
August 10, 2014, 4:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
It actually sounds like a modified honda civic. When I go home, I will post a video of a civic and my car.

Also, I dont think there is another person in the world who is in the same situation as I am and was able to own all these three cars back to back in such a short period of time.

A lot of good reviews are from people who either never owned a BMW before or come from a "lesser" car. All these " O M G " reviews are hardly creditble.

I guess BMW shot themselves on the foot with the E9X at the end of the day. Such a high bar for any other car to match and exceed.
The more likely scenario is you are a unique person and this car is just not right for you. You go on and on about the sound of the vehicle and obviously place the sound of a vehicle very high on your list of wants. For me, that is very far down the list - far below the actual performance of a vehicle.

Personally, I was not a fan of E9X's.. I drove one multiple times in 2008 before buying a GT-R instead. I place torque and that feeling off the line above sound on my list. That is why a new M3/M4 is on my list to purchase while a E9X was disqualified.
beden1 commented:
August 10, 2014, 5:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMCRACING View Post
The more likely scenario is you are a unique person and this car is just not right for you. You go on and on about the sound of the vehicle and obviously place the sound of a vehicle very high on your list of wants. For me, that is very far down the list - far below the actual performance of a vehicle.

Personally, I was not a fan of E9X's.. I drove one multiple times in 2008 before buying a GT-R instead. I place torque and that feeling off the line above sound on my list. That is why a new M3/M4 is on my list to purchase while a E9X was disqualified.
That's why I bought a 335is and got the torque and the sound. But, I also love our E90 M3 sedan and the sound the engine produces.
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMCRACING View Post
The more likely scenario is you are a unique person and this car is just not right for you. You go on and on about the sound of the vehicle and obviously place the sound of a vehicle very high on your list of wants. For me, that is very far down the list - far below the actual performance of a vehicle.

Personally, I was not a fan of E9X's.. I drove one multiple times in 2008 before buying a GT-R instead. I place torque and that feeling off the line above sound on my list. That is why a new M3/M4 is on my list to purchase while a E9X was disqualified.
You have a gtr background and you want the f8x? Thats interesting.
F8x has terrible straightline acceleration compared to awd gtr. It cannot put all the power down effectively. I drove a gtr and this car is in a different league. To be honest, gtr has the best acceleration i have ever experienced in any car. Unless its financial, hard to understand your reasoning.

I am not a competitive race track driver. I dont go up and down in a room thinking what mod I get will give 5 tenths in some track. Daily driving, things like sound and engine note are as equally important as acceleration and performance.

And the car is not cheap. At 80k (with gap and taxes close to 90), its not your "affordable track car" anymore.

I think the point is, if you like the e9x m3, this isnt your car. People who like this car like yourself come from other brands and usually dislike the e9x. You also proved my point about that.
jbird2345 commented:
August 10, 2014, 5:39 pm

So... you gonna go back to the old, get an M5, or stick with what you got?
K-A commented:
August 10, 2014, 5:55 pm

O/T but you mean "gap" insurance? Isn't that only for leases? If that is what you meant, why would you need that on a purchase, with full coverage insurance?
Flstate commented:
August 10, 2014, 6:38 pm

Gap insurance is not for leases only for example, let's say I bought a 2015 M3 for 75,000. If it's totaled 6 months later, let's say it now costs 60,000, the gap insurance will cover the difference so that you won't be upside down when you need to pay the car off to the financial institution.


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K-A commented:
August 10, 2014, 7:07 pm

Ahh. Interesting. I'll have to look up how much it costs
jagu commented:
August 10, 2014, 8:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Ahh. Interesting. I'll have to look up how much it costs
Quite minimal, about $250 for my wife's LS460L, through Delta credit Union.
K-A commented:
August 10, 2014, 8:32 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagu View Post
Quite minimal, about $250 for my wife's LS460L, through Delta credit Union.
Interesting. I hate to veer Stig's thread more off, but is it necessary if you put, say half down on a car, or only if you have a ton more loan than equity in the car?
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 8:35 pm

My gap insurance is $900. It has to do with where you get it and for how much you get it for. $250 is impossible on a 80k 2015 model year car.
DerStig commented:
August 10, 2014, 8:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Interesting. I hate to veer Stig's thread more off, but is it necessary if you put, say half down on a car, or only if you have a ton more loan than equity in the car?
It's necessary only if the loan amount exceeds the KBB of the car. If you put more than 25% down, it's not needed.

That being said, with the interest rates these days (like 1.85% my friend just got for 6 years), you have to be stupid to put more than 5% of the car down.
K-A commented:
August 10, 2014, 10:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
It's necessary only if the loan amount exceeds the KBB of the car. If you put more than 25% down, it's not needed.

That being said, with the interest rates these days (like 1.85% my friend just got for 6 years), you have to be stupid to put more than 5% of the car down.
Wow, 1.85%. Was I getting my leg pulled when a dealer said the best I can quality for (with highest credit capabilities) is 2.99?
jagu commented:
August 10, 2014, 10:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Interesting. I hate to veer Stig's thread more off, but is it necessary if you put, say half down on a car, or only if you have a ton more loan than equity in the car?
If you have equity in the car, then it won't be necessary to buy it.

We paid $51k for a 1.5 year old LS460L and only put down $8K for a 3 year loan and we only paid $250 at Delta credit union in 2012.
Eagle11 commented:
August 11, 2014, 1:42 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
You have a gtr background and you want the f8x? Thats interesting.

.
After a while I can see how the GT-R would get old, besides being lighting fast, the car is a pig around town and you really feel the weight of the car. The GT-R can be driven as a daily driver but would get a little old after a while, a change is needed... BTW, the same could be said about you, if you really owned a M5, and 2 M3's some people wouldn't understand why you would want to keep one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post

And the car is not cheap. At 80k (with gap and taxes close to 90), its not your "affordable track car" anymore.

I think the point is, if you like the e9x m3, this isnt your car. People who like this car like yourself come from other brands and usually dislike the e9x. You also proved my point about that.
Big broad statement, I know a couple of people who had a E9X M3 and really didn't like it because of the lack of toruqe.. One of those guys just got a F82 M3 and likes it much better, I was able to drive it this weekend, and thought it was a blast to drive, the power it makes it explosive, and it's right there, someone that the E9X M3 lacked.

But as you stated you are a "car enthusiast" so that is all that matters.. I wonder what your take was on the Acura NSX when it came out...
Eagle11 commented:
August 11, 2014, 1:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Ahh. Interesting. I'll have to look up how much it costs
It's cheap and some auto insurance companies now offer it too.
MMCRACING commented:
August 11, 2014, 10:54 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
You have a gtr background and you want the f8x? Thats interesting.
F8x has terrible straightline acceleration compared to awd gtr. It cannot put all the power down effectively. I drove a gtr and this car is in a different league. To be honest, gtr has the best acceleration i have ever experienced in any car. Unless its financial, hard to understand your reasoning.
I sold the GT-R a few years ago and have been doing off-roading for fun. Now I'm going to get back into something fast, but I want a little luxury also. Maybe I am getting old (turned 40 last month.. )
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 10:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle11 View Post
After a while I can see how the GT-R would get old, besides being lighting fast, the car is a pig around town and you really feel the weight of the car. The GT-R can be driven as a daily driver but would get a little old after a while, a change is needed... BTW, the same could be said about you, if you really owned a M5, and 2 M3's some people wouldn't understand why you would want to keep one of them.


Big broad statement, I know a couple of people who had a E9X M3 and really didn't like it because of the lack of toruqe.. One of those guys just got a F82 M3 and likes it much better, I was able to drive it this weekend, and thought it was a blast to drive, the power it makes it explosive, and it's right there, someone that the E9X M3 lacked.

But as you stated you are a "car enthusiast" so that is all that matters.. I wonder what your take was on the Acura NSX when it came out...
I sat in my friend's E92 (2008) M3 today just to check the quality of panels and buttons etc. Interestingly the cheapness feel of lightweight plastic usage was not present at all. Yes they are not of the same quality as 5 series, but they are definitely not squeaking like my car. The A/C also is not on par with 5 series, but it is more powerful than my M3. It's right where it should be (5 series is like a refrigerator to be honest).

I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. Obviously there are people out there who is amazed with this car and everyone has different expectations. It is what it is. BMW is not going to change their design and I am not going to change my opinion of the car.
FTC commented:
August 11, 2014, 11:17 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I sat in my friend's E92 (2008) M3 today just to check the quality of panels and buttons etc. Interestingly the cheapness feel of lightweight plastic usage was not present at all. Yes they are not of the same quality as 5 series, but they are definitely not squeaking like my car. The A/C also is not on par with 5 series, but it is more powerful than my M3. It's right where it should be (5 series is like a refrigerator to be honest).

I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. Obviously there are people out there who is amazed with this car and everyone has different expectations. It is what it is. BMW is not going to change their design and I am not going to change my opinion of the car.
Thank you for the very informative PM. As far as the F10 M5 goes please you know the old saying " be careful what you wish for". What I am referring to is everybody complaining about the "weight" of the F10 M5 and how they want it 400-500 lbs. lighter than the 4350 lbs. that it currently weighs, well know everybody sees what happened to the M3 F80. Yes BMW brought it in lighter than the e90 M3 even though it is actually a larger car dimension wise and look what happened to the interior quality and even the overall build quality of the body frame. I just hope BMW does not take a classy F10 M5 that really has high end looks,luxury, and world class performance and make it a $ 115,000.00 ford taurus, that would suck, just so the people can say " my M5 weighs 3975 lbs., how much does your car weigh ?". Watch carlos lagos, ("I know I sound like a broken record"), Initial review of the f10 M5 titled " a wolf in sheeps clothing" and listen to his closing comments, they pretty much sum up what the M5 is all about !
FTC commented:
August 11, 2014, 11:23 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I sat in my friend's E92 (2008) M3 today just to check the quality of panels and buttons etc. Interestingly the cheapness feel of lightweight plastic usage was not present at all. Yes they are not of the same quality as 5 series, but they are definitely not squeaking like my car. The A/C also is not on par with 5 series, but it is more powerful than my M3. It's right where it should be (5 series is like a refrigerator to be honest).

I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. Obviously there are people out there who is amazed with this car and everyone has different expectations. It is what it is. BMW is not going to change their design and I am not going to change my opinion of the car.
I love the performance of the GT-R and I even can tolerate the exterior looks but no way am I going to pay $ 115,000.00 FOR A SUPER CAR WITH ABSOLUTELY CHEAP AND UGLY INTERIOR BUILD QUALITY !

I'D buy a corvette or porsche first.
beden1 commented:
August 11, 2014, 11:29 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
I love the performance of the GT-R and I even can tolerate the exterior looks but no way am I going to pay $ 115,000.00 FOR A SUPER CAR WITH ABSOLUTELY CHEAP AND UGLY INTERIOR BUILD QUALITY !

I'D buy a corvette or porsche first.
I'd buy a Porsche first anyway and did, and a Corvette ZO6 before.
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 2:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I really dislike the exhaust guys, it's really getting to me. On the other hand, I am really liking the sound of the inline 6 and the overall loudness/rawness of the car. It feels like a stripped out track car and it handles so good. That being said, my god that exhaust is just atrocious. What the heck was BMW thinking? I hope eisenmann race can overcome this, if it cannot, I don't know what I would do. I may even get an old E92 M3 for 35k and get a second car for the family. Call me crazy, but the sound of a car is just so important for me and after owning this car, I am realizing that more and more.
Can you elaborate on this? You say you like the sound of the inline 6 but hate the exhaust... Seems contradictory.
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 2:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
Although I do agree with you about why bmw can't add $ 15,000.00 to the M3 and give it almost the same luxury appointments as the M5.
This would never fly. The M3/M4 is $70K+ even with a bare minimum of options. Add $15K and this car is priced out of the market. It's unfortunate the material quality of the F30/F80 has taken a turn for the worse compared to the E9x and that it's also nowhere close to the quality of materials in an F10 but it is what it is...
K-A commented:
August 11, 2014, 3:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
Thank you for the very informative PM. As far as the F10 M5 goes please you know the old saying " be careful what you wish for". What I am referring to is everybody complaining about the "weight" of the F10 M5 and how they want it 400-500 lbs. lighter than the 4350 lbs. that it currently weighs, well know everybody sees what happened to the M3 F80. Yes BMW brought it in lighter than the e90 M3 even though it is actually a larger car dimension wise and look what happened to the interior quality and even the overall build quality of the body frame. I just hope BMW does not take a classy F10 M5 that really has high end looks,luxury, and world class performance and make it a $ 115,000.00 ford taurus, that would suck, just so the people can say " my M5 weighs 3975 lbs., how much does your car weigh ?". Watch carlos lagos, ("I know I sound like a broken record"), Initial review of the f10 M5 titled " a wolf in sheeps clothing" and listen to his closing comments, they pretty much sum up what the M5 is all about !
How is the body frame lacking? The F30 is much less rigid than the F10, but due to that, BMW strengthened the F80 so much, it's more rigid than the 5 Series (not sure about M5 specifically). Though maybe that strength came from suspension related chassis stiffening (such as bolting the subframe directly onto the body, extra braces, etc) rather than the "frame" which I assume would mean the safety cage for one.




Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
I love the performance of the GT-R and I even can tolerate the exterior looks but no way am I going to pay $ 115,000.00 FOR A SUPER CAR WITH ABSOLUTELY CHEAP AND UGLY INTERIOR BUILD QUALITY !

I'D buy a corvette or porsche first.
The GTR day to day is a clunker, and an elephant. It feels like you're in any cheap Nissan. The design gets very old and exhausting to look at after awhile too. This is where BMW timeless design comes into play.




Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Can you elaborate on this? You say you like the sound of the inline 6 but hate the exhaust... Seems contradictory.
Induction noise (what you hear from the engine) VS what's spit out of the tailpipes. Some cars have a strong dichotomy between them, such as some BMW I6's, who sound like pure intoxication, perfection and genius up front, but not translated to what comes out back. That's why I always prefer I6's to have loud engines (nothing matches it, IMO), but somewhat muted or moderate exhaust. "I" shaped engines just don't.sound as good from the exhaust as "V" shaped, though nary a V6 can touch the engine sound and feel of a proper BMW I6.




Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
This would never fly. The M3/M4 is $70K+ even with a bare minimum of options. Add $15K and this car is priced out of the market. It's unfortunate the material quality of the F30/F80 has taken a turn for the worse compared to the E9x and that it's also nowhere close to the quality of materials in an F10 but it is what it is...
Really, the M3 shouldn't be $15k more to get all that.

The F30 should have had a MUCH better interior and refined build quality, which means the F80 would've been perfect with additions to it that it should've got, such as alcantara headliner, etc.
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 3:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Can you elaborate on this? You say you like the sound of the inline 6 but hate the exhaust... Seems contradictory.
Sure.

I love the way the engine sounds, the induction noise, and namely what you hear mostly inside cabin.

I hate the exhaust noise. Cold start, idle, and any noise under hard acceleration is absolutely terrible. It sounds no different than a modified civic or a mitsubishi evo. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I watched all akra videos of the new $8,000 exhaust and they all have the same lawn mower/diesel engine tune to them. They are just louder. Not particularly better.
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 4:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Induction noise (what you hear from the engine) VS what's spit out of the tailpipes. Some cars have a strong dichotomy between them, such as some BMW I6's, who sound like pure intoxication, perfection and genius up front, but not translated to what comes out back. That's why I always prefer I6's to have loud engines (nothing matches it, IMO), but somewhat muted or moderate exhaust. "I" shaped engines just don't.sound as good from the exhaust as "V" shaped, though nary a V6 can touch the engine sound and feel of a proper BMW I6.
I guess I'll have to wait to hear one for myself but what you describe is clearly opinion and not necessarily factual. Every time I hear an Infiniti G37 I roll my eyes back at how obnoxious it sounds (from the outside, to be clear).

Quote:
Really, the M3 shouldn't be $15k more to get all that.

The F30 should have had a MUCH better interior and refined build quality, which means the F80 would've been perfect with additions to it that it should've got, such as alcantara headliner, etc.
The reality of the F80 is that it's based on the F30, and clearly BMW went the cost reduction route when selecting interior materials for this model. It would be way too costly to re-engineer interior trim components for a (relatively) low-volume runner like the F8x. To BMW's credit, F30s are everywhere; clearly a sales success. To people "stepping up" from a Toyota or a Hyundai, the interior is great. To the rest of us who had E90s, not so much.
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 4:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Sure.

I love the way the engine sounds, the induction noise, and namely what you hear mostly inside cabin.

I hate the exhaust noise. Cold start, idle, and any noise under hard acceleration is absolutely terrible. It sounds no different than a modified civic or a mitsubishi evo. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I watched all akra videos of the new $8,000 exhaust and they all have the same lawn mower/diesel engine tune to them. They are just louder. Not particularly better.
I'm curious: Have you tried pulling the fuse to the audio system to make sure you're not hearing the "synthesized" engine note being pumped in through the speakers?

There's no way it could sound like a Civic or an Evo. Those are 4-cylinder engines. A sixer has a completely different harmonic.

It sounds to me like you should pay a visit to your local pcar dealer. There is not a better sounding six-cylinder engine anywhere on the planet, inside or out, than what you'll find in a Cayman or a 911.
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
I'm curious: Have you tried pulling the fuse to the audio system to make sure you're not hearing the "synthesized" engine note being pumped in through the speakers?

There's no way it could sound like a Civic or an Evo. Those are 4-cylinder engines. A sixer has a completely different harmonic.

It sounds to me like you should pay a visit to your local pcar dealer. There is not a better sounding six-cylinder engine anywhere on the planet, inside or out, than what you'll find in a Cayman or a 911.
Whats played through the speakers is not the exhaust sound and I love it in its current form. I hate the exhaust note. As in what people hear from outside. I heard it the other day while my wife was leaving our building and I had to keep my head down and was like "oh god".

The engine sound of a 4 cylinder and a 6 cylinder are totally different. I was comparing their "exhaust" note. Again, what you hear from outside. To be honest, and EVO is exactly what my exhaust sounds like from outside.

I love the way M5 CP sounds like with flaps open. Or the old E9X M3. I love being able to hear and distinguish that unique sound due to V8's different firing sequence. Such a unique, classy, yet aggressive (under load).
FTC commented:
August 11, 2014, 5:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Whats played through the speakers is not the exhaust sound and I love it in its current form. I hate the exhaust note. As in what people hear from outside. I heard it the other day while my wife was leaving our building and I had to keep my head down and was like "oh god".

The engine sound of a 4 cylinder and a 6 cylinder are totally different. I was comparing their "exhaust" note. Again, what you hear from outside. To be honest, and EVO is exactly what my exhaust sounds like from outside.

I love the way M5 CP sounds like with flaps open. Or the old E9X M3. I love being able to hear and distinguish that unique sound due to V8's different firing sequence. Such a unique, classy, yet aggressive (under load).
Add the E-RACE AND IT'S LIKE A FINE WINE.
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 5:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Whats played through the speakers is not the exhaust sound and I love it in its current form. I hate the exhaust note. As in what people hear from outside. I heard it the other day while my wife was leaving our building and I had to keep my head down and was like "oh god".

The engine sound of a 4 cylinder and a 6 cylinder are totally different. I was comparing their "exhaust" note. Again, what you hear from outside. To be honest, and EVO is exactly what my exhaust sounds like from outside.

I love the way M5 CP sounds like with flaps open. Or the old E9X M3. I love being able to hear and distinguish that unique sound due to V8's different firing sequence. Such a unique, classy, yet aggressive (under load).
I still don't agree with you. The exhaust sound of a 4-cylinder sounds nothing like that of a 6-cylinder, whether it be a V6 Infiniti, an Inline-6 BMW or a flat-6 pcar. That being said, perhaps the M3/M4's exhaust isn't the most refinely tuned out there but personally I'd be a lot more concerned with what *I* hear when I'm driving it and not what others hear when I blow past them. After all, I'm usually *inside* my car when I'm driving, not outside..

You really should try a pcar. I test drove a 997 C2S w/ PDK this weekend. Awesome car. I want one. I also tried out a C63 AMG. Phenomenal engine and sounds fantastic inside and out!
FTC commented:
August 11, 2014, 5:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
How is the body frame lacking? The F30 is much less rigid than the F10, but due to that, BMW strengthened the F80 so much, it's more rigid than the 5 Series (not sure about M5 specifically). Though maybe that strength came from suspension related chassis stiffening (such as bolting the subframe directly onto the body, extra braces, etc) rather than the "frame" which I assume would mean the safety cage for one.

You are right. What I meant to say is the body/frame, not the chasis, is very light and cheap on the F80 M3, meaning the doors,trunk,hood, side panels. Although I do understand that this is part of cutting weight.





The GTR day to day is a clunker, and an elephant. It feels like you're in any cheap Nissan. The design gets very old and exhausting to look at after awhile too. This is where BMW timeless design comes into play.

agreed.





Induction noise (what you hear from the engine) VS what's spit out of the tailpipes. Some cars have a strong dichotomy between them, such as some BMW I6's, who sound like pure intoxication, perfection and genius up front, but not translated to what comes out back. That's why I always prefer I6's to have loud engines (nothing matches it, IMO), but somewhat muted or moderate exhaust. "I" shaped engines just don't.sound as good from the exhaust as "V" shaped, though nary a V6 can touch the engine sound and feel of a proper BMW I6.

V-8 Engine noise/sound.






Really, the M3 shouldn't be $15k more to get all that.

The F30 should have had a MUCH better interior and refined build quality, which means the F80 would've been perfect with additions to it that it should've got, such as alcantara headliner, etc.
Agreed.
SuperTerp commented:
August 11, 2014, 7:13 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Can you elaborate on this? You say you like the sound of the inline 6 but hate the exhaust... Seems contradictory.
It drones [my mom mentioned sorry but it sounds like a souped up civic ] which is ok in your 20s not sure if you had a family you'd like how it sounded 24/7 and I think you'd end up turning the radio on a good bit.... But sounds like s* unless your getting on it, the valve mod helps but again its more of a ricer sound.
Eagle11 commented:
August 11, 2014, 8:45 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
I sat in my friend's E92 (2008) M3 today just to check the quality of panels and buttons etc. Interestingly the cheapness feel of lightweight plastic usage was not present at all. Yes they are not of the same quality as 5 series, but they are definitely not squeaking like my car. The A/C also is not on par with 5 series, but it is more powerful than my M3. It's right where it should be (5 series is like a refrigerator to be honest).

I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. Obviously there are people out there who is amazed with this car and everyone has different expectations. It is what it is. BMW is not going to change their design and I am not going to change my opinion of the car.
This post has nothing to do with what I wrote...

In regards to a "flame-war" you made a statement in your article in which I questioned and you side step them..

Nice Car enthusiast you are.
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 9:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle11 View Post
This post has nothing to do with what I wrote...

In regards to a "flame-war" you made a statement in your article in which I questioned and you side step them..

Nice Car enthusiast you are.
Sorry, I dont get your point.
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 9:08 pm

Just listen to this video please. I just saw this on youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX40a9JHI44.

This is the most expensive (Akra EVO will be over $8,000 in parts) exhaust system for this car. Do you guys honestly like this sound?
AK commented:
August 11, 2014, 9:20 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
Just listen to this video please. I just saw this on youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX40a9JHI44.

This is the most expensive (Akra EVO will be over $8,000 in parts) exhaust system for this car. Do you guys honestly like this sound?
Doesn't sound particularly inspiring to me. If this is something that truly concerns you, go to your nearest Porsche dealer and find a 911 with the sport exhaust (PSE) option.
DerStig commented:
August 11, 2014, 9:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Doesn't sound particularly inspiring to me. If this is something that truly concerns you, go to your nearest Porsche dealer and find a 911 with the sport exhaust (PSE) option.
So your answer is a 2 seater for 100k+? Where do I put my daughter in the 911?
FTC commented:
August 12, 2014, 4:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
So your answer is a 2 seater for 100k+? Where do I put my daughter in the 911?
And for $ 100,000.00 when you buy a porsche you do not get alot. To buy a porsche that compares with the quality and performance of say a M5/M6, or even a M3, a porsche panarama turbo will run you $ 160,000.00 to $ 180,000.00 with 4 seats. Unless you find a real good deal on a used one.
FTC commented:
August 12, 2014, 4:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Doesn't sound particularly inspiring to me. If this is something that truly concerns you, go to your nearest Porsche dealer and find a 911 with the sport exhaust (PSE) option.
Or a M5 with the eisenmann race exhaust.
DerStig commented:
August 12, 2014, 9:00 pm

This car handles great. Just had some fun time today in the country side and if tracking is your thing, this car is just so much fun and it is a significant improvement over the old one and does not compare to the M5. Brakes are just amazing and the turbo spool up/induction noise gets your adrenalin going. I just wish the exhaust was a bit more mature/aggressive/distinct sounding. It sounds way too much like Nissan G37 (Or infiniti?).
FTC commented:
August 12, 2014, 9:59 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig View Post
This car handles great. Just had some fun time today in the country side and if tracking is your thing, this car is just so much fun and it is a significant improvement over the old one and does not compare to the M5. Brakes are just amazing and the turbo spool up/induction noise gets your adrenalin going. I just wish the exhaust was a bit more mature/aggressive/distinct sounding. It sounds way too much like Nissan G37 (Or infiniti?).
I knew you would come to your senses. I guess the hype is pretty good after all. I am going to assume the handling and performance outweigh the exhaust and below standard interior build.
Flstate commented:
August 12, 2014, 10:15 pm

G37's sound nice imo


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
DerStig commented:
August 12, 2014, 11:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
I knew you would come to your senses. I guess the hype is pretty good after all. I am going to assume the handling and performance outweigh the exhaust and below standard interior build.
It depends. I wouldn't say that statement is true exclusively.

When I'm in curvy country roads, I don't care about the interior quality. When I'm in traffic or cruising in highway, all I care is interior quality. Unfortunately, I live pretty much in Manhattan and I am hardly in country roads