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My review of F80 M3 and how it compares to E90 M3 and F10 M5

38K views 147 replies 20 participants last post by  zstoja 
#1 · (Edited)
***8221;m3 comparison***8221;

I have been waiting a long time to write this review. Initially I was going to post lots and lots of pictures and videos, but I wanted to keep everyone's focus in the content rather than the pictures and videos. So for now I am just posting 3 pictures, however I will be posting a separate thread for pictures AND videos of the various bits and pieces of the car. I'm an amateur photographer and videographer, therefore I believe these deserve their own threads!:)

Now that's out of the way, where do I start?

I went from a 2011 E90 DCT ZCP M3 to 2014 F10 M5 DCT ZCP to a 2015 F80 M3. Yeah I know. A lot of cars, a lot of expensive cars, in a short period of time. I have been very fortunate in that, I was able to drive all of these cars to their fullest extent and experience them.

Before I go into specifics, I'm going to summarize what I'm about to say and be blunt about it.

Of all these 3 cars, hands down, no doubt, in my mind, the best car out there was the E90 M3. I'm not a professional driver. I'm not a competitive race track driver. I'm a car enthusiast. For someone like me, the engine and the sound of a car (as I now realize) plays a very key role. In these two areas, both the M5 and the new M3 fails miserably. Both of them lack induction noise (i.e. the engine note), both of them have horrifying exhaust notes with M5 having an edge (since it's a V8 and I had a comp package with no muffler). The M3 exhaust is just utterly disgusting.

So why didn't I keep my M3 then? Well simple, it was a lease, lease was up, keeping it beyond lease and getting warranty/maintenance, new tires, etc would result in me paying more money per month for the next 5 years than I am paying now in my M3. All in all, in 8 years (3 years lease + 5 years finance for residual), the amount of money I paid for the M3 would be outrageously high (over 90k with interest) for a car that will be worth maybe 20-22k at the end of those 8 years. It just made no financial sense. I always told myself that it cannot be this bad and I'm sure I'll love these new turbo cars and I do, but I guess deep down I always suspected this would have happened, the regret would have hit me.

That being said, there are many good things about these cars:

Steering: The steering in the new M3 is the best of all 3. Then comes the F10 M5, then the old M3. I'll give it to BMW, they have done a fantastic job with the new EPS steering. It's so precise, yet at the same time so modern. Bravo.

Performance: The new M3 destroys the old one hands down. No contest there. It will smoke the E90, even with a supercharger on it from 0-60, 1/4 mile, you name it. I had both the M5 and M3 back to back and they accelerate very similar. They have the same 0-1000m time, same 0-60 time, and same a lot of numbers. In extreme cases where you are doing a race from a roll say 60mph to 140mph, M5 will win due to its larger displacement engine. But overall, they are extremely similar. Now M6 though is another story, M6 will eat the M3/M4 alive.

Exterior: I hated the look of the M5. So classic, so understated. First I liked it, yeah "wolf in sheep clothing". But then more and more I realized it looks nothing like a true M car. No extended wheel arches. No carbon fiber roof. No aggressive bumper. No power dome. It just looks too standard. The new M3 looks amazing in person. Unbelievable. And white is stunning. Shows the curves of the car so well. I love the looks of the new car so much.

Gas mileage: Oh my god. 27 mpg in an M3 is not a dream anymore. Under similar driving conditions, this car gets 40% or so better mileage than my M5 and %25-30 mileage better than my old M3. Unbelievable. The problem is, it has a smaller gas tank than the regular 3 series, roughly 1 gallon less. Not good. M5 on the other hand had a massive 21.1 gallon tank, a full 5.1 gallons more. When all said and done, M5 would get more range with a full tank of gas, which was very convenient.

Interior: M5 hands down has the best interior out of all 3. The entire car is covered in leather. Doors from top the bottom, dashboard, back of the seats, everything. Even the roof is suede. The new M3 is a huge improvement over the old one, but still a lot of 3 series cheapness. A lot of plastic and not 5 series plastic, but bad low quality plastic. Doors are really light and have to be slammed. The radio buttons are low quality plastic. For some reason I think the plastic they used is worse in this M3 than the old one. But interior is still an improvement.

Technology: Both M5 and M3 share same technology as far as HUD, M views, M buttons, driver assistance features and so on. M5 has more luxury features such as massaging seats or ventilated seats and things like trunk closing with swiping the foot (M3's trunk opens if you swipe your foot, but closes manually). These new Ms are fairly advanced in this area. However, a lot of these features are extremely unnecessary, at least in the M3. You dont need the cameras, the driver assistance features, and especially the HUD. They are all waste of money. In M5, I can see the argument, parking that car is near to impossible without cameras. You need the blind spot detection because seats are so thick that it's hard to see your blind spot, but M3 does not have these issues.

Overall: If you want luxury, go with M5. If you want pure performance go with new M3. If you want spirited driving, soul, pure joy and don't care much about lapping a track 5 seconds slower, go with the old M3.

In terms of M3 vs M5, M5 is a very different type of car. Just because 5 is greater than 3 does not mean M5 is the next step from an M3. It's more like it's a more appropriate car for older people with different needs from a car. I am associating it with age simply because as men age their needs change too. But you can certainly be 25 and like an M5. It's an extremely expensive car to own and maintain. I do a lot of my own maintenance myself and M5 is not practical in that sense. It's huge, heavy, parts are very expensive, there is little to none DIY information available, and you are stuck going to dealership for everything. It's tires and wheels are huge, aftermarket parts are extremely expensive and limited. It's a more exclusive car certainly, but very distant and silent. You don't hear the engine much (or not as much as the new M3) unless you are above 4k rpm. It's very hard to enjoy it also. You can enjoy the new M3 just shifting at 2500 rpm, in the M5 you have to be driving at dangerous speeds to get some adrenalin pumped into your blood.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Overall I am happy with the M3. If I went directly from E90 to F80, I'd be miserable. But after seeing the F10, I am telling myself, this is the better of the worst. Having seen the M5, and since it was the last car I owned before this M3, it sort of makes me feel better owning this car.

In reality, there is a lot of cool technology and lots of optimizations that are in the new M3. So many improvements, so many new ideas and I quite like it. But they are all very minor changes. It's not like we have a car that has GT-R like performance and sub 3.0s 0-60 time. It's still, well, relatively slow compared to those super cars. It's not leaps and bounds better than the old car. It is BETTER, don't get me wrong. Aside from sound, everything is better. But is it really worth the upgrade to the point where one should lose 20k during the process and give up the sound of the old engine? Most definitely not. If you own your M3 outright and not leasing it, I'd say keep it and modify it and maintain it for as long as you can.
 

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#2 ·
Thanks for the frank review. We will be happy to keep our E90 M3! :thumbup:
 
#3 ·
Great review. Thanks. I think the F30 M3 is a masterpiece.

I agree about the looks. My biggest issue with the F10 M5 is that it doesn't really look "M stated". A regular F10 M Sport I think is almost as beautiful (if not more from the rear). It just looks like a lazy interpretation of an M transition. The M3 now had a TOTALLY different presence in person from the standard 3. It looks more "M" than 3. To me, it looks downright exotic in its M-esque way. I also think the M3 looks more harmonious and nice than the M4, more well proportioned as well.

I personally like the F10 exterior design more than the standard F30 (though M Sport vs M Sport, the F30 comes close or depending on my mood, could even best it on some days). But I think the F80 does look better than any F10, and I find the F10 to be the nicest Sedan design to ever come out, really.

The only thing I don't like about the F80 is the interior! It uses that damn cheap a$$ F30 interior. Maybe I'd get used to it if I get one, but being used to an F10, just looking at it gives me a feeling I'd assume I'd get if I was moving from a luxurious house to a moderate apartment. I don't even think the 3 Series has interior ambiance lights? I've been spoiled by this fluff. That area on the F80 where the center console goes into the M style gearshift lower console area, and the stitched "arm" just blatantly cuts off, looks hideous, like something I wouldn't expect BMW to ever do. Maybe in person it'd all makes sense to me and I could at least somewhat fall in love with the interior. The F10 interior is so smooth and well resolved, the wood blends from the dash into the doors, etc. The F30 dash is of a totally different design from the doors, like they have no blending correlations at all. But maybe that's part of the M3 charm, the car is a refined street car with a race soul, and the interior accompanies that.

I'm also thrilled that the F80 went back to an I6. IMO it gives it the inherent engine designation that defines BMW's soul, and gives it back its unique power train aura. Even though the E90 M3 had a V8 unlike any other in the world, V8's are common, as are V6's. I6's, especially BMW I6's are legendary and completely exclusive. I also think that BMW's turbo I6's have more dynamic capabilities than about anything out there. The distinctive sound (though maybe not on the S55 unfortunately?), nimble high revving nature yet muscle-car like low-end torque, inherently balanced design (one of the only in the world) providing it smoothness you wouldn't think 6 cylinders could be capable of, and great MPG, all factor into it being what I prefer in an M3. Being the most technically impressive I6 BMW has ever put in a production car to date, makes me want the car on its own.

It's also amazing how incredible the performance figures are for a car with "only" 425 HP. 3.9 seconds 0-60 and a 1/4 very close to 11's is what bloated cars of higher HP figures can't even touch. To me that's what great engineering is all about. Not chasing the marketing HP war figures, but getting as much "more" you can out of as "less" gluttonous measures. That's very true to M roots, and what Porsche has built its history upon.

Questions:

Re: the M3 trunk closing: I'm assuming it at least has auto close?

Also, is the M3 really that much cheaper/easier to maintain, find parts for and DIY than the M5? The M5 uses mostly regular F10 exterior parts, while the M3 is almost entirely of distinctive parts, save for the doors, lights, roof and deck really. I actually find that to be a plus as if you ever got in an unfortunate accident, insurance companies would be forced to use OEM parts as aftermarket parts for the M specific sections would probably/hopefully be nonexistent.

And, don't the M5 and M6 have similar power? I thought they performed close enough to where an M6 for example couldn't eat up an M3 if the M3 performs similarly to the M5 in a straight line.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Great review. Thanks. I think the F30 M3 is a masterpiece.

I agree about the looks. My biggest issue with the F10 M5 is that it doesn't really look "M stated". A regular F10 M Sport I think is almost as beautiful (if not more from the rear). It just looks like a lazy interpretation of an M transition. The M3 now had a TOTALLY different presence in person from the standard 3. It looks more "M" than 3. To me, it looks downright exotic in its M-esque way. I also think the M3 looks more harmonious and nice than the M4, more well proportioned as well.

I personally like the F10 exterior design more than the standard F30 (though M Sport vs M Sport, the F30 comes close or depending on my mood, could even best it on some days). But I think the F80 does look better than any F10, and I find the F10 to be the nicest Sedan design to ever come out, really.

The only thing I don't like about the F80 is the interior! It uses that damn cheap a$$ F30 interior. Maybe I'd get used to it if I get one, but being used to an F10, just looking at it gives me a feeling I'd assume I'd get if I was moving from a luxurious house to a moderate apartment. I don't even think the 3 Series has interior ambiance lights? I've been spoiled by this fluff. That area on the F80 where the center console goes into the M style gearshift lower console area, and the stitched "arm" just blatantly cuts off, looks hideous, like something I wouldn't expect BMW to ever do. Maybe in person it'd all makes sense to me and I could at least somewhat fall in love with the interior. The F10 interior is so smooth and well resolved, the wood blends from the dash into the doors, etc. The F30 dash is of a totally different design from the doors, like they have no blending correlations at all. But maybe that's part of the M3 charm, the car is a refined street car with a race soul, and the interior accompanies that.

I'm also thrilled that the F80 went back to an I6. IMO it gives it the inherent engine designation that defines BMW's soul, and gives it back its unique power train aura. Even though the E90 M3 had a V8 unlike any other in the world, V8's are common, as are V6's. I6's, especially BMW I6's are legendary and completely exclusive. I also think that BMW's turbo I6's have more dynamic capabilities than about anything out there. The distinctive sound (though maybe not on the S55 unfortunately?), nimble high revving nature yet muscle-car like low-end torque, inherently balanced design (one of the only in the world) providing it smoothness you wouldn't think 6 cylinders could be capable of, and great MPG, all factor into it being what I prefer in an M3. Being the most technically impressive I6 BMW has ever put in a production car to date, makes me want the car on its own.

It's also amazing how incredible the performance figures are for a car with "only" 425 HP. 3.9 seconds 0-60 and a 1/4 very close to 11's is what bloated cars of higher HP figures can't even touch. To me that's what great engineering is all about. Not chasing the marketing HP war figures, but getting as much "more" you can out of as "less" gluttonous measures. That's very true to M roots, and what Porsche has built its history upon.

Questions:

Re: the M3 trunk closing: I'm assuming it at least has auto close?

Also, is the M3 really that much cheaper/easier to maintain, find parts for and DIY than the M5? The M5 uses mostly regular F10 exterior parts, while the M3 is almost entirely of distinctive parts, save for the doors, lights, roof and deck really. I actually find that to be a plus as if you ever got in an unfortunate accident, insurance companies would be forced to use OEM parts as aftermarket parts for the M specific sections would probably/hopefully be nonexistent.

And, don't the M5 and M6 have similar power? I thought they performed close enough to where an M6 for example couldn't eat up an M3 if the M3 performs similarly to the M5 in a straight line.
The interior of the M3 is really not it's strong suit. In fact, if you are coming from a 535, it will disappoint you somewhat. If you are into details, things like door seals, memory buttons on the doors, the radio buttons, A/C controls, or the rear A/C controls, all of this will disappoint you.

In a 5 series, there are 4 individual A/C units with thermostats. That means every corner of the car has a powerful A/C section that is maintained independently. In the M3 there is only 2 for the entire car and each individual unit has much less power than that of the one in 5 series. In my M5, the A/C was so powerful, you never had to increase it over speed 2 at 70F, in the M3, we are often at speed 4 and 68F and the fans can be heard very loudly. What I'm saying is, A/C sucks, and it's worse than the old M3. Old M3 wasn't as good as the M5, but it wasn't as bad either. It could be weight or emission savings, not sure.

There is ambient lighting, and it's same as the one in M5. The M5 ambient lighting wasn't that good to begin with, the real one you should see is the M6. Now that looks nice!:)

The headliner and sun visors are all plastic, not alcantara. When you use the sun visors, they feel really cheap.

I mean I could go on and on. The point is, don't buy this car for it's interior. You will be very sorry and you will regret it. All these comments about how it's interior is great comes from people who either never owned BMWs or have the previous M3. This car is not meant to be a luxury sedan. It's a raw sports car for a car enthusiast. It's for people who like getting their palms sweat because they squeeze the steering wheel so hard when they drive the car to it's limits. It is NOT a smaller and cheaper M5.

The trunk does not close all by itself. There is no button to close it. You have to close it yourself.

The insurance will always replace it with an OEM part, they have to.

M6 is much faster than an M5 as it weighs a full 250 lbs less. That's huge. It makes the same power with much less weight and has better center of gravity. It handles a ton better and it traps over 125 mph in a 1/4 mile. Now if M5 had the M6 performance, that'd be something else. Driving an M6 is a totally different experience. It's interior is also much nicer with contrast stitching. The B&O speakers all light up on the doors and at the back as well as the front unit, whereas in the M5, only the front unit in the dashboard lights up.
 
#8 ·
Lol on the above post!

Anyways this is the normal white right? Looks amazing. I hope the mineral white looks good as well, my. Car is starting production next week hopefully.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Yes it is normal white. Mineral white also looks great, but it's a b!tch to maintain when it comes to rock ships or any sort of paint job. The best color for that kind of stuff is really white, nothing else. Call me crazy but it makes life simpler;)
 
#11 ·
Terp: How bout a little review of your switch from the F10 to the F80?

I know raw speed is your thing, but do you miss the refinement of the F10 interior, things like alcantara, more harmonious interior design, etc.? How about mechanical engineering, does the M3 really get your blood flowing that much more? And finally, on exterior styling, do you agree with DerStig in that the M3 looks more commanding and appealing in the sense that it's more differentiated as an "M" from the F10 M5?
 
#12 · (Edited)
Yeah, I'm having LOTS of fun with it [that can't be understated].. I can't go roll race and expect to win against almost all but the most highly modified cars, like I could with the BMS M5, but again how many people are doing that, or spending time above 75mph where you really notice the difference between the S55 and 63tu..

You can definitely tell the quality is different [as it should be for a 20-40k premium] vs. the M5/M6. But the outside makes people look at it, and I love the aggressive nature of the styling. I can honestly say I've had more people ask me about it, tell me they like it, or snap pictures in 2 weeks with the m4 than 6 months with the m5 [and I had the sakhir M5 not the run of the mill black, silver, white].

-I agree with his assessment on the AC I find myself with it always near 3 to max where the m5 barely ever saw above 3 bars.

-The seats are ten times better in the m4/m3 I absolutely love them!

-The B&O with stealth pilots settings destroy the h&K and if you can order the Bowers Wilkins option that's not listed I'd do that if I could over... Granted I didn't even buy the car I ordered, I bought their hre car because it hadn't come over [again b&o $3700 option vs. $800 Hk]

-Blood flowing MUCH more in the m4... 110 feels like 155+ in the M5 [I had drivetrain malfunction playing around with 6lbs of boost in the m5 and even with the speedo above 160 and the car jerking the m5 felt more stable if thats any indication of just how detached they make it from the true speed lol]

-Exhaust sounds better inside the car, but even my mom mentioned when I swung by to see her "It kinda sounds like a supped up Honda, like you're trying to make it sound loud. Sorry." lol

Just like he said they serve very different purposes and clienteles, I think all but the most luxo focused owners couldn't enjoy the m3/m4.. Other than that I don't think anyone would find too much of a problem owning an m3/m4 or an m5/m6... Just really depends on the buyer.
 
#18 ·
THanks for posting your review. very handy to a 535xi owner like me looking to make a switch a year down the line. I am a little surprised to hear your opinion about the interior and referring to the leather in the F10. Does your car have the FULL leather option? I was having a hard time to put my finger on a non-leather surface inside the M4 recently. I think that option is pricey but a must for F10 folks who have a high expectation of the interior.
 
#19 ·
No problem.

I have full leather and it is a must in this car. Its already too cheap looking (interior wise) and I couldnt live without the full leather. That being said, it is probably the least important option if you are on a budget, adaptive suspension, HK sound, and DCT are higher in the list.
 
#20 ·
I have not had the opportunity to drive the new M3/M4. Aesthetically, I find both the M3 and the M4 just about perfect – both convey a sense of speed and BMW purposefulness. Dynamically, I appreciate the enhanced performance capabilities of the new cars, and their efficiency. Most importantly, you note, as others have commented, the new M3/M4 are fun to drive.

I am certain, at some point in time, a new M4 will find a home in my garage – and that will be a very happy day in the Capobranco house. However, until that day comes, I will savor the e92 M3. I have owned many nice cars – but the e92 is special to me. Exotic sound, right now reflexes, thrilling performance, wearing Q Ship guise - the e92 M3 is a BMW decathlon champ. Indeed, I am toying with the idea that I might stay with the e92 and have some fun modding for a few years, and delay the lease of a new M4 until the “Competition” package is introduced.

Decisions ….decisions….. a choice between winning and winning
 
#23 ·
Nice choice DerStig, the m3 probably won't be as unloved as BMW thinks compared to the m4, and in AW even better if exterior maintenance is of concerns. Liked you comparo, most points being obvious but nice to hear from someone with actual wheel time behind them.
 
#24 ·
I really dislike the exhaust guys, it's really getting to me. On the other hand, I am really liking the sound of the inline 6 and the overall loudness/rawness of the car. It feels like a stripped out track car and it handles so good. That being said, my god that exhaust is just atrocious. What the heck was BMW thinking? I hope eisenmann race can overcome this, if it cannot, I don't know what I would do. I may even get an old E92 M3 for 35k and get a second car for the family. Call me crazy, but the sound of a car is just so important for me and after owning this car, I am realizing that more and more.

The car is a beast, it handles so good, and it's so powerful. The first gear is so sensitive, it's hard not to jerk the car. I mean I love everything else about the car. It looks gorgeous and so aggressive. But the sound is just terrible:(

And there is the infamous exhaust rattle that never seems to go away, google it I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.
 
#126 ·
I really dislike the exhaust guys, it's really getting to me. On the other hand, I am really liking the sound of the inline 6 and the overall loudness/rawness of the car. It feels like a stripped out track car and it handles so good. That being said, my god that exhaust is just atrocious. What the heck was BMW thinking? I hope eisenmann race can overcome this, if it cannot, I don't know what I would do. I may even get an old E92 M3 for 35k and get a second car for the family. Call me crazy, but the sound of a car is just so important for me and after owning this car, I am realizing that more and more.
Can you elaborate on this? You say you like the sound of the inline 6 but hate the exhaust... Seems contradictory.
 
#25 ·
I don't know why but BMW's normal I6's always sound so incredible while the hippo M versions tend to sound like crap (exhaust rattle, etc.). The E46 M3, one of my favorite cars of all time, has one of the worst exhaust notes of all time.

I bet the ENGINE of the S55 sounds sublime, indeed. I'm not so big on the I6 exhaust sound as much as I am the exhilarating intake/motor sound. I wish BMW would just find a way to muffle the hell outta the exhaust and in trade, make the engine itself sound like it's on a loudspeaker. :D

Just saw the white M3 in the new R&T. Holy crap is it a stunning car. That singlehandedly put it back on my consideration list.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Engine sounds great, but downshifts don't. Have you ever driven a DCT E9X M3 and did a downshift at S5? That downshift induction noise from the engine would scare people away. It'd have people literally turn around and look at you from across the street like what the **** is going on.

In the F8X, you can downshift from 5000rpm and hit 7000 rpm, it sounds like someone is gently pressing the throttle. Absolutely no roar. It has got nothing to do with I6 though, my M5 was the same. 4.4 liter 600 hp engine, it sounds like an inline 4 when you downshift. No exhaust noise, no roaring sound. Turbo cars are really bad when it comes to sound. It's torture for people with E60 M5 backgrounds.
 
#26 ·
Of all these 3 cars, hands down, no doubt, in my mind, the best car out there was the E90 M3. I'm not a professional driver. I'm not a competitive race track driver. I'm a car enthusiast.

The M3 exhaust is just utterly disgusting.

It just made no financial sense.
Lets get a few things correct if you are a true car enthusiast then financial sense goes out the door.

exhaust tone can be changed and give the aftermarket another couple of months and they will have an exhaust that will make the F80 sing, remember car enthusiast will make the changes to make them happy.

Now for me, the F80 is worlds better then the E90 M3 in every way, I'll be ready for my F80 in 3 years when someone is done posing in it and returns its off lease.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Exhaust tone cannot be changed. Exhaust tone can become louder. But it will still have the same lawn mower sounding ugly tone to it. An M5 exhaust like eisenmann race sounds a million times better than anything anyone will come up with for this car. If it sounded like GTR, now that's something else, but it doesn't and it won't because it cannot.

F80 is worlds better than E90 in a competitive, handling, and a technical way. E90 is better than F80 in an emotional way.

And to be honest with you, the more I drive this car, the more I realize it's power is pretty useless on the 1st and 2nd gear. There is just no traction. I tried warming up my tires to 110F, lowering the pressures to 31psi, nothing helps. There is no way to prevent excessive wheel spin. None of these were issues in E90. It was more fun car, it was building power in a more manageable way. M5 has the same problem, but M5 has its weight and wider tires to its advantage. M3 is too light for the kind of RWD power it's making. It's going to need some serious tires like R888 to put that traction down nicely for it to be able to achieve anything below 3.8s to 60.

Truth be told, I could enjoy my E90 without ever going into MDM mode in all gears flooring the gas. I never had to worry about traction lighting up unless I was turning and giving gas. In the F80, I literally have to turn the traction control FULLY OFF to be able to accelerate aggressively. There is just no way to enjoy the car as is with DSC on. Traction control gets in the way so aggressively that it just ruins the moment for you.
 
#30 ·
Congrats. 1st world problems, I can't decide which M car is best :). I personally love my F10 M5 - the proportions just look better imo. If anything, I would wait for the M2 or get the M235i as a second car to toss around on track day.
 
#31 ·
Agreed. I to Love my f10 M5. I think the M5 is the better looking M car compared to the M3. The only 2 things the new M3 have on the M5 is the price and lighter weight, I know I sound like a broken record. If you put a list together between the 2 M cars the M5 is by far the better car from A to Z, minus price and vehicle weight. For me I am going to wait and see what changes are made to the M3 when the LCI is introduced with the CP and the next GEN. M5.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I've been reading though this thread with great interest as we have an '11 E90 M3 with a MT. I also had an '08 E93 M3 with DCT. I found there was much more traction control, even with DTC off, when driving a MT over the DCT in any of the M Drive settings from normal to sport plus . But, these cars have less torque as compared to the new M4 producing 425 HP and 406 lb.-ft. of torque.

I had an '09 Corvette Z06 with a MT which produces 505 HP with 470 lb. ft. of torque. But, the car only weighed 3,145 lbs. as compared to the M4 that weighs 3,530 lbs. More torque and much less weight made the Z06 very tricky to put down the power when launching, especially with DTC off and even with massive tires, so launching in second, or even third gear helped to put the power down for a clean start. Most of the time however, keeping DTC in either normal mode or in competition mode helped to maintain control when launching or during spirited driving. IMO, only a professional driver would benefit from turning DTC off in a car with this much power to weight ratio. I think the same is probably true when driving the new M4/3.

I think a driver needs to be careful when setting the M Drive depending on the driving conditions, particularly with a DCT. I really needed to spend time getting to understand how these settings manipulated the car, and in the sport plus settings, drastically so. I had a much better sense of control driving with a MT in any M Drive settings. But, sport plus settings, IMO, only belong on the track. They really only come alive, as they were intended to, when you're able to push the car beyond what would be safe on public roads.

Back in 1983, I bought a new BMW 533i, which at the time, was a predecessor to the M5 that first came out in 1985. It replaced my 1979 BMW 328i. The 533i had an automatic transmission. What I found from driving this car, was because it was a chasis and interior designed for highway speed comfort, and because it was tight and quiet with the windows up, it was difficult to realize how fast you were going. This caught me off guard a number of times. Fortunately, the car had decent brakes.

I later drove a modern day E Series M5 that a dealer friend of mine had taken in on trade. The car only had around 1,500 miles on it and I asked why the owner decided to trade it in so soon. The dealer said that the owner was afraid of the car because it gave him no sense of the speed he was traveling. This guy also owned a Ferrari and a Porsche. When driving the car myself, I felt the same way as the previous owner, and felt that the seating position was also a cause for creating a false sense of speed and control. (driving fast sports cars like Corvettes and now my Porsche, the seating position is near ground level, which gives you a clear sense of what speed you're traveling. While a benefit for sprited driving around country roads, it makes for a less desireable highway driving experience, as on the highway, you get fatigued quicker than if your more upright in your seat and driving a sedan). Also, the lack of exhaust and engine sounds provided very little feedback.

I'm not interested in an M5 because I prefer driving sports cars over super sedans, but if I did get one, it would have a MT. At least that way, I could have some sense of control and speed. To M5 owners, and for that matter, M4/3 owners as well, be aware that you're sense of speed is hindered by the tight body control, quiet interior with windows up, lack of engine and exhaust note (M4/3), and more upright seating postion as compared to driving a sports car. Even though your brakes are no doubt good, nothing can beat the law of physics.

Be safe out there! :thumbup:
 
#46 ·
I'm not interested in an M5 because I prefer driving sports cars over super sedans, but if I did get one, it would have a MT. At least that way, I could have some sense of control and speed. To M5 owners, and for that matter, M4/3 owners as well, be aware that you're sense of speed is hindered by the tight body control, quiet interior with windows up, lack of engine and exhaust note (M4/3), and more upright seating postion as compared to driving a sports car. Even though your brakes are no doubt good, nothing can beat the law of physics.

Be safe out there! :thumbup:
Compared to a f430 which I've spent extensive amounts of time in, that car is much more like the m3/m4 in its rawness and feeling of speed.. m5 I would honestly not feel that uncomfortable texting and driving or sipping coffee at 155 thats how refined and detached it is.

When the m5 bites it bites bad... i took a turn regularly in the 70s to mid 80s one night not paying attention I took it at 91-94 and the car bit VERY hard, you instantly feel the weight the engineering hides so well in the 70s-80s.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Yes M5 is very disconnected, one of my biggest issues with the car. But with the right exhaust (like FTC's e-race) and maybe downpipes, it becomes extremely loud giving you perfect feedback. It is not really M5's fault specifically, there is just too much sound proofing in the 5 series. The steering (especially CP) is stellar in M5 and the suspension can be made pretty stiff in sport+. But still is nowhere near as harsh as the M3's sport+. You cannot drive on a highway extended periods of time in the M3's sport+ suspension. You CAN (and I have used sport+ exclusively) in the M5. I think sport+ in M5 is pefect (in CP). You just dont need any aftermarket suspension.

Now in contrast, there is just almost no soundproofing in the M3! Wind noise is pretty loud past 70mph and unbearable at 100 mph. You feel like you are in a wind tunnel:)

Maybe I should try to find a clean E90 M3 and move back:(
 
#50 ·
Your brain is a terrible thing to waste!
 
#58 ·
Bottom line...these are different cars. If you want a plush interior and a ride that kind of disconnects you to the road, then M5 has the bells and whistles. Sure it has power, but it also has weight and is horrible on gas. Do people really care about plastic buttons. The AC issue in the new M3 is interesting...what's up with that? Haven't seen that before.
 
#62 ·
I don't really find the sound that loud - it's all preference i suppose. I suspect if you're driving hundreds of miles a clip, maybe it gets annoying - not sure - not really how I plan on using the vehicle. The M5 is a great car - definitely quieter and much more of a luxury feel. For me, it didn't give me a rush. Maybe i'm off on that one.

The AC thing is concerning...huh. Anyone else have issues with the AC. Have you talked to your dealership about it - the service guys? Do they care and/or have any info?
 
#63 ·
I don't really find the sound that loud - it's all preference i suppose. I suspect if you're driving hundreds of miles a clip, maybe it gets annoying - not sure - not really how I plan on using the vehicle. The M5 is a great car - definitely quieter and much more of a luxury feel. For me, it didn't give me a rush. Maybe i'm off on that one.

The AC thing is concerning...huh. Anyone else have issues with the AC. Have you talked to your dealership about it - the service guys? Do they care and/or have any info?
I checked 3 other M3/M4s around where I live, they were all the same. So did not bother asking the dealership for the A/C.
 
#65 ·
There is nothing I can do. As said, I have managed to look at 3 other new M3/M4s (2 M3s and 1 M4) in addition to mine, so that's 4 cars, and they were all the same. The squeaks and rattles are also all the same so is the wheel bearing issues. Having spent so much time on these M cars, I can tell the difference between production issues and design issues. The A/C issue is not going to go away. We need to manage our expectations.
 
#67 · (Edited)
There is loud clicking coming from the front wheels upon tight turns at slow speeds. This is a very common issue in these cars as well as some of the M5/M6s. So far my car has had this issue twice in 2400 miles. Very mild. Some people have this much worse, there are people who have had their M5's wheel bearings switched 3 times and the issue keeps coming back. It's not really an M3 issue. Its one of those things thats not going to go away and is a characteristics of the car.

I probably would not have gotten the M3 if I could do it all over again. The previous M3 is a far better car than this one in so many aspects as a daily driver. If you are tracking competitively and into time comparisons more than the car itself, then it's another question. On paper it is better, but we are not "paper". We are human beings. If you know what I mean:)
 
#68 ·
Interesting. I'm really confused now what to do. I was going to pull the trigger on a new M3 but after reading this I'm wondering if i should with this pre-owned 2013 M5 that is fully loaded. I've driven both... definitely different experiences. The feel of the M5 was so much different - definitely more refined, more luxurious... i live in a city, so not sure how much i'm going to be able to maximize each car. I also do not typically go on long drives, so not sure how much the exhaust note will impact me. That said, the gas savings on the M3 is more compelling. I would imagine the M5 is more costly to own overall.

The 2013 is listed as a corporate fleet vehicle...with 15K miles. That too scares me. Was told it was not used for driving school or track stuff, but who knows.

I'm way confused at this point. I feel like i'm going to be annoyed one way or another.
 
#69 ·
Interesting. I'm really confused now what to do. I was going to pull the trigger on a new M3 but after reading this I'm wondering if i should with this pre-owned 2013 M5 that is fully loaded. I've driven both... definitely different experiences. The feel of the M5 was so much different - definitely more refined, more luxurious... i live in a city, so not sure how much i'm going to be able to maximize each car. I also do not typically go on long drives, so not sure how much the exhaust note will impact me. That said, the gas savings on the M3 is more compelling. I would imagine the M5 is more costly to own overall.

The 2013 is listed as a corporate fleet vehicle...with 15K miles. That too scares me. Was told it was not used for driving school or track stuff, but who knows.

I'm way confused at this point. I feel like i'm going to be annoyed one way or another.
I would not get a 2013 M5 unless I wanted to heavily mod it:

- The steering rack (the entire steering hardware) is very old and is one of the things that many people complained about the original M5. BMW made a lot of changes to it and upgraded all cars beginning 2014.
- It's pre-lci, and the LCI for the 5 series has had a lot of changes.
- The exhaust with the mufflers is too quiet, again you need to modify the exhaust.
- The suspension is too soft, you need new sway bars or springs, etc.

2013 M5 in its stock form drives nothing like the M5 now (2014). I would never buy one.

Now in terms of M5 vs M3, cost of ownership in an M5 is a lot more than in M3. Gas is ridiculously good in the M3. No matter how hard I try, I cannot get it below 18 mpg. Same driving pattern would yield 12-13mpg in the M5. That's around 60% of improvement. Everything from insurance, to repairs, to tires and so on will cost 20-40% more in M5.

If the cheapness in the M3 does not bother, M3 is the car. It just does not drive like a luxury sports car from Germany. I have sat in the next stringray recently and that thing has better seats and interior than the M4. Sad but true. BMW is playing the corporate game of how to maximize profit. They start from 7 series, and start taking features away. By the time they go from 7 to 6 to 5 to 4 and 3, not much left really.

The issues I mentioned regarding the M3, like A/C, wheel bearings, and so on are not really issues. They are not going to go away. Squeaky brakes was like this in the M5, did not go away. Wheel bearing, again same thing. Certain things there is a pattern and they are too common. The only would be to make core changes to the vehicle's design, which BMW will not do. So don't let these things hold you back.
 
#70 ·
I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight. I did not know that about the M5.

I know the engine noise bothers you a lot, which I guess is something i would have to take a chance on. You don't really get a sense of it in terms of how it would affect you over time until you actually have the car for a while. That said, i would be doing mostly city driving - which is unfortunate to some degree since i won't really be able to use the car to half of its potential, but that's how that goes. Do you like the seats in the M3?

Let me ask you something else... went out with a couple this past weekend (some friend of my wife's)...anyway, the dude had a new cadillac CTS Vsport (he made sure to tell me it was not the V)...seemed like a nice ride though. Had some energy and was fully loaded with the bells and whistles. I know they are different cars, but I played around on the website build this weekend, certainly a bit cheaper than the M3. Any experience with that car?
 
#74 · (Edited)
Really not into the cadillac styling. I like the understated, classic, modern look of the BMWs over any other car. I love their interior and exterior styling, their engineering, and more importantly how easy it is to do basic maintenance on them. There is a huge BMW community online, far larger than any other car manufacturer when it comes to these top end M cars. For an E9X M3, you can do any maintenance item yourself from spark plugs, to differential fluid change to wheel bearing replacement.

The seats of the M3 superb. To be honest with you, my butt and back cannot tell the difference between the M5 seat and the M3 seat. I'm quite a fit guy who works out all the time, had I been a more typical guy with the big beer belly and some fat around the back area, I could see a problem with it, because the seats are quite thin and they wrap you really well. To give you some perspective, in the M5, I had to use the side bolsters in their MAXIMUM position all the time. But the seat has enough cushion, it doesn't feel cheap or bad at all. It's the same merino leather they use in both cars, so I have no complaints in that area.

The back of the seats are plastic and it does look cheesy on colors that are other than black. In a black leather car, the back of the seat goes well with the leather color and you can't tell that it's not leather. In a red or silverstone interior, it looks really bad and cheap (compared to the M5).

You can certainly get used to extracting a lot of power from these cars in daily driving. I live in NYC pretty much (Manhattan) and if I can have fun with these cars, so can you. You just need to be careful :

- Watch the potholes. I check the potholes more than I check the car in front of me.
- Never parallel park and if you must, make sure there is a lot of space in front and in the back.
- Never go to valet parking.
- Never go to one of those close tight downtown parking garages.
- Park your car as far away as possible with no shopping carts around in places like walmart and target.
- Don't tailgate people in highways because of the rocks that are everywhere.

I mean I have had many M cars living in the city, it wasn't easy. Sure, sometimes I told myself, "man I wish I had that X5 instead and not care about any of this". But really those times are limited.

The problem with the M5 is its practicality. It's a gorgeous car, so beautiful, so powerful, sounds so much better, but it requires gentle care:

- The car is big. It's 11 inches longer and 4 inches wider than an already large M3. Parking it in garages, street, so on is very difficult. Sure you can get used to it like the 70 year old lady driving the yellow school bus, but is it fun doing that stuff? No. Every time you drive the car, it gives you goose bumps in that regard.
- Tires are huge and expensive. You cannot go to your michelin tire shop and pay $15 to swap these tires. You have to either find an independent shop that can handle $1300 wheels and $450 tires or go to BMW. Changing each tire will cost you $50-75. Change all 4 of them, that's as much as the price of a tire in the M3. M3 tires are smaller, wheels are smaller, anyone can change them. I maintain my own set of wheels for all my cars for winter and always swap them out myself. Now in the M5, I tried taking one wheel off for cleaning the brake dust once, I had to have my wife help me put it back on. Those 20" wheels are HUGE. They are so HEAVY too. I work out as I said, and I could not hold the wheel with 1 hand and align the bolts. It's also a lot easier to scratch and put dents on these wheels. The larger the wheel, higher the chances of damaging the wheel (exponentially).
- The interior requires so much care. Full leather is really full in this car. The entire doors, back of the seats, dashboard, every area that you can touch is leather. If you got kids, keep a bottle of bourbon by your seat to calm yourself down because you will get stressed just getting them in and out of the car. No matter how careful you are, the leather will be in a terrible condition in a month's time. The alcantara roof is gorgeous, but so is impractical. If you touch with any sort of food or fruit by accident, good luck cleaning that stuff.
- Gas money as I said before is a lot. I mean a lot a lot. I paid almost $600 in a month for gas in that car and same usage cost me less than $300. That was with almost 2500 miles driving. Now if you don't have a heavy foot, it actually gets great mileage. So put things in perspective, if you drive in granny mode in efficient, M5 will get 24.5 mpg in highway, M3 will get 30. M5 will get 17mpg in city, M3 will get 19. So in city driving, there is not much difference between them (in granny mode). Highway is something else. But if you have a heavy foot, the difference between them gradually changes. I can manage a good 25-26 mpg in highway in the M3 with aggressive shifts, same driving would yield a mere 16-17 for the M5.
- Insurance is a lot more expensive. It's around $80-90 more a month than the M3.

But these are all things that are money related. If you have the financial means to afford both, you should get the M5. M3 is not a classy car. It is an aggressive looking sports car. It's a track oriented car. It's not as fast as M5 as many people predicted. It won't beat an M5 in a straight line race from a dig, from a roll. It feels much more powerful. You are also paying a ton of money for an M3 that has too much cheap plastic and a terrible sound.

Oh speaking of sound....

I met a guy today who had downpipes in his M5 and an eisenmann race exhaust. I didn't have my camera with me, but that thing was awesome. I wanted to record a video of it and now I feel so pissed off driving my M3. It sounds like a joke compared to the e-race in the M5. Now eisenmann will come out with an exhaust for the M3 as well, but no exhaust can change the characteristics of the exhaust sound. They can only make it louder. It's never going to sound like a "V" engine. Even the V6 in GTR which is also turbo sounds better than the M3.

M3 is a more reasonable car. M5 is an irresponsible financial choice:)
 
#73 ·
Yeah...it seems at the end of the day, given the few items that have been raised regarding the M3/M4, at the end of the day it is a better bet than the 2013 M5 for a variety of reasons.

I guess you have to just put your best foot forward and see where it lands. I suspect at the end of the day, the M3/M4 will make me (and most people) super happy.
 
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