3 Series among top 3 most resold cars in first year of ownership

by Bimmerfest.com Member - namelessman on March 6, 2017, 6:00 pm
selling 3s

On the average, new car owners hang on to their cars is 6.5 years. However, some German favorites are being sold much quicker. The F10 forum has a similar thread, it looks like the top 3 most resold cars are 3-series, 5-series, and C-class.

Quote:
The list of 11 models most likely to be unloaded within the first year include six made by German luxury automakers. The top three cars the BMW 3 Series and 5 Series and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class are being rapidly resold at rates four times the national average.
Can the dealer's buying and selling of loaners a big factor in this? Or 3-series is really that regrettable to own?

The article says 8% of 3-series sold changes hands in first year, it is not clear if those are just purchases/finances, or it includes lease transfers as well.

Read the full article from Forbes here!



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142 responses to 3 Series among top 3 most resold cars in first year of ownership

ctorrey commented:
March 6, 2017, 6:55 pm

And those fools took a BATH on depreciation. Seriously, I could see badge chasers unhappy with harsh ride (sports suspension, RFTs) and anything else you would find in your garden variety Lexus, but not in their 3 series.


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app
gkr778 commented:
March 6, 2017, 7:16 pm

All ten cars in iSeeCars.com's top ten "regrettable rides", as listed in that Forbes article, had areas of concern in Consumer Reports' latest owner satisfaction survey (February 2017 issue):

10.) Subaru Impreza WRX: lowest possible rating for comfort
9.) Chrysler 200: Below average rating overall; lowest overall satisfaction in midsize sedans category
8.) Mercedes-Benz E-Class: below average rating for value
7.) BMW 4-Series: lowest possible rating for value; lowest overall satisfaction in coupes & convertibles category
6.) BMW X3: lowest possible rating for value
5.) Dodge Dart: lowest possible rating for comfort and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in compact cars category
4.) Nissan Versa Note: lowest possible rating for driving experience, comfort, and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in subcompact cars category
3.) Mercedes-Benz C-Class: below average rating for value
2.) BMW 5-Series: lowest possible rating for value
1.) BMW 3-Series: lowest possible rating for value

So to me it's not surprising these particular car models ended up on iSeeCars.com's list.
namelessman commented:
March 6, 2017, 8:16 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
All ten cars in iSeeCars.com's top ten "regrettable rides", as listed in that Forbes article, had areas of concern in Consumer Reports' latest owner satisfaction survey (February 2017 issue):

10.) Subaru Impreza WRX: lowest possible rating for comfort
9.) Chrysler 200: Below average rating overall; lowest overall satisfaction in midsize sedans category
8.) Mercedes-Benz E-Class: below average rating for value
7.) BMW 4-Series: lowest possible rating for value; lowest overall satisfaction in coupes & convertibles category
6.) BMW X3: lowest possible rating for value
5.) Dodge Dart: lowest possible rating for comfort and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in compact cars category
4.) Nissan Versa Note: lowest possible rating for driving experience, comfort, and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in subcompact cars category
3.) Mercedes-Benz C-Class: below average rating for value
2.) BMW 5-Series: lowest possible rating for value
1.) BMW 3-Series: lowest possible rating for value

So to me it's not surprising these particular car models ended up on iSeeCars.com's list.
The list actually has 11 cars, it looks like both Versa(sedan?) and Versa Note(hatchback) made the list.

Well it looks like the feedback is loud and clear, customers want cheap 3/4/5-series and X3.
mr_clueless commented:
March 6, 2017, 9:53 pm

I am not surprised. I really went through big time buyers remorse after my first F30. If I had unlimited resources I probably would have sold it. In fact, I had actually discussed it with the SA. But the cost was going to be too much. I was lucky it turned out to be a lemon and BMW bought it back. That was painful 18 months of ownership.

And I am so familiar with BMW. What would happen if some someone was not familiar with the brand? I had several ex-colleagues who bought F10 cars and regretted it, but I don't know if they got rid of them.

These cars do not deliver on their marketing promise. They get close only if configured right and it is VERY hard to get it right.
Spiderm0n commented:
March 6, 2017, 9:57 pm

Quote:
to quote Michael Corleone in The Godfather, "It's not personal, it's strictly business." According to iSeeCars.com's CEO Phong Ly, luxury-car brands often give their dealers incentives to buy a few new models to use as service-department loaner cars, then proceed to turn them over after a year's duty.
Makes sense....
BobinIl commented:
March 6, 2017, 10:00 pm

I'm outside of the 1 year window of the article, but last week I traded in our 2014 F30 (1st BMW) w/14k miles after 2 1/2 years.. I really liked the car and my wife never really warmed up to it. We bought a '17 F48 X1 so stayed with the brand. So far so good it looks like it will meet our needs. We have another sedan for road trips etc.
mr_clueless commented:
March 6, 2017, 10:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderm0n View Post
In your opinion, what is the "right" configuration for an enthusiast?
With the F30, I think M-sport is an absolute MUST for the following reasons.

- Sport seats.
- M-sport steering so the gauges are not obstructed.
- M sport or M adaptive suspension.
- Better brake pads. [Overlooked by most people.]

It still does not feel as nice as an E46. I have zero attachment to this car, compared to my E46 which I held on to for almost 11 years and 220K miles.
ILD_757 commented:
March 6, 2017, 11:39 pm

People are probably buying them as a status symbol and then realizing the payments are not worth it.
CALWATERBOY DUE commented:
March 6, 2017, 11:59 pm

.

Cherry pick a 5 yr old, save ton!

Perspective: What's the repossession rate for a 3?
Autoputzer commented:
March 7, 2017, 12:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILD_757 View Post
People are probably buying them as a status symbol and then realizing the payments are not worth it.
Or the decision is made for them by BMW FS and Bubba's Midnight Towing Company.

About 57% of BMW's are leased in the U.S., even higher with the 3's. The cheapest lease term is 36 months. But, 24 and 30 month leases aren't that much more. So, there are a lot of used BMW's floating around.

Down here in Floriduh, we have a lot of "golf tournament" cars go on the used car market. A golf tournament will get a bunch of new cars directly from the manufacturer, and then they go to the dealer's for sale as used cars after only being on the road for a week or so.

I've noticed a lot of first-time BMW owners freak when they have to pay $100 for an oil change for the first time. They're oblivious of the 50% to 75% deprecation they've eaten in the first three or four years, but that $100 oil change really gets inside their brain in a bad way and the car's gone before you know it.

Those expensive synthetic oil changes are why the peasant brand manufacturers are so reluctant to require synthetic oil in those cars. Toyota and Subaru now require synthetic. When Toyota made the switch they had a big PR campaign to get their customers to warm up to the idea. Ford and FCA's solution to the synthetic oil sticker shock was to allow synthetic-blend oils. A friend was a GM zone guy back in the 1990's. He said that they wished everybody would use synthetic oil. But, they didn't dare make it a requirement, except for Corvette's and Cadillac's.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 12:31 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
I am not surprised. I really went through big time buyers remorse after my first F30. If I had unlimited resources I probably would have sold it. In fact, I had actually discussed it with the SA. But the cost was going to be too much. I was lucky it turned out to be a lemon and BMW bought it back. That was painful 18 months of ownership.

And I am so familiar with BMW. What would happen if some someone was not familiar with the brand? I had several ex-colleagues who bought F10 cars and regretted it, but I don't know if they got rid of them.

These cars do not deliver on their marketing promise. They get close only if configured right and it is VERY hard to get it right.
In summer 2012 the dealer offered $10k to $11k off a F10 and the contract was almost signed. The dealer even matched private sale price of E39 to sweeten the deal. But there is no doubt in my mind at that time(and still now) the F10 would be a regrettable purchase, so the sweet offer was turned down.

The F30 328i on the other hand fit the role as an E39 successor pretty well. F30 is agile, quick, balanced, comfortable, yet not harsh(with base suspension and Driveguard@36-38psi square), and the drive improves further with miles. Since my reference is an E39, my expectation probably are very different from others who seek E46/E90 replacements.

Since the article cites 1-year ownership, my thinking is, at least for pre-LCI, the compression and rebound curves of the suspension on new cars was not tuned that well(compression was harsh and rebound was soft). The OEM RFTs also have been harsh on uneven roads. Those, paired with high MSRPs and sparse standard equipment, can drag down the ownership experience quite a bit.

The LCI seems to alleviate the suspension issue somewhat, but haven't addressed the pricing issue aggressively.
mr_clueless commented:
March 7, 2017, 12:46 am

Pricing will be addressable once production moves to Mexico.

I actually have no problems with the price. I would rather it cost even more and deliver an E46 like driving experience -- steering and suspension -- than cost less and deliver a Honda-style driving experience and quality of materials.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 7, 2017, 1:24 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
In summer 2012 the dealer offered $10k to $11k off a F10 and the contract was almost signed. The dealer even matched private sale price of E39 to sweeten the deal. But there is no doubt in my mind at that time(and still now) the F10 would be a regrettable purchase, so the sweet offer was turned down.

The F30 328i on the other hand fit the role as an E39 successor pretty well. F30 is agile, quick, balanced, comfortable, yet not harsh(with base suspension and Driveguard@36-38psi square), and the drive improves further with miles. Since my reference is an E39, my expectation probably are very different from others who seek E46/E90 replacements.

Since the article cites 1-year ownership, my thinking is, at least for pre-LCI, the compression and rebound curves of the suspension on new cars was not tuned that well(compression was harsh and rebound was soft). The OEM RFTs also have been harsh on uneven roads. Those, paired with high MSRPs and sparse standard equipment, can drag down the ownership experience quite a bit.

The LCI seems to alleviate the suspension issue somewhat, but haven't addressed the pricing issue aggressively.
You're thinking like an enthusiast and 99% of BMW drivers are not thinking that way. They are thinking of the money, like Putzer says and I think that is why they bail. They are either in the minority who buy the car, realize how much money they dumped into that thing just to get payments to a realistic level, then they see in 6 mos to a year how much the car has plummeted in value and then they start researching what it will cost to maintain it and they flip out and bail, or they are paying $500 a month to lease a 3 series and realize they are on the hook for 3 years for that, and bail. We have to remember that MOST people driving around in 3 series aren't getting the sweet deals some of the guys on the forums are getting. Again, just anecdotally speaking but my payment my 328 is less than friends are paying leasing their Mazdas and so on. Most people get HOSED at the dealer and most people are paying quite a bit more money than we think to lease these cars. So yeah, they get into a stripper 328i for $3000 down and $400 a month and they end up disappointed and realize that power windows were an option, that the Aveo they rented at the airport has a backup camera and their Bimmer doesn't and they freak out and bail.

And based on most of the studies I have read, including the one I am quoting by Polk, the breakdown of lease penetration for the BMW 328i is 60% leased nationwide, with 80% of that model in New York leased and 78.8% in L.A. leased. Meaning, the majority of people driving a 328i in the U.S. lease, with only 20% or LESS in the 2 major markets for the brand, actually buying the car.

Source: http://blog.ihs.com/dont-believe-everything-you-see

I don't think anyone is leasing the car and being like "I wanted the ultimate driving machine and the steering on this car is a little numb at center, so I want out, NOW"
Pretty much no one has said that ever. I'm not sure most people could tell the difference between a good 'driver's car' and a hole in the ground.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 1:35 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Pricing will be addressable once production moves to Mexico.

I actually have no problems with the price. I would rather it cost even more and deliver an E46 like driving experience -- steering and suspension -- than cost less and deliver a Honda-style driving experience and quality of materials.
The E46 driving experience is still available in 2-series, right? The F30 is really not speced to be a E46 follow-on.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 1:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
You're thinking like an enthusiast and 99% of BMW drivers are not thinking that way. They are thinking of the money, like Putzer says and I think that is why they bail. They are either in the minority who buy the car, realize how much money they dumped into that thing just to get payments to a realistic level, then they see in 6 mos to a year how much the car has plummeted in value and then they start researching what it will cost to maintain it and they flip out and bail, or they are paying $500 a month to lease a 3 series and realize they are on the hook for 3 years for that, and bail. We have to remember that MOST people driving around in 3 series aren't getting the sweet deals some of the guys on the forums are getting. Again, just anecdotally speaking but my payment my 328 is less than friends are paying leasing their Mazdas and so on. Most people get HOSED at the dealer and most people are paying quite a bit more money than we think to lease these cars. So yeah, they get into a stripper 328i for $3000 down and $400 a month and they end up disappointed and realize that power windows were an option, that the Aveo they rented at the airport has a backup camera and their Bimmer doesn't and they freak out and bail.

And based on most of the studies I have read, including the one I am quoting by Polk, the breakdown of lease penetration for the BMW 328i is 60% leased nationwide, with 80% of that model in New York leased and 78.8% in L.A. leased. Meaning, the majority of people driving a 328i in the U.S. lease, with only 20% or LESS in the 2 major markets for the brand, actually buying the car.

Source: http://blog.ihs.com/dont-believe-everything-you-see

I don't think anyone is leasing the car and being like "I wanted the ultimate driving machine and the steering on this car is a little numb at center, so I want out, NOW"
Pretty much no one has said that ever. I'm not sure most people could tell the difference between a good 'driver's car' and a hole in the ground.
The lease penetration data dated 8/2011 is interesting, is there any data for, say, 2016?

Among friends and families the buy/lease ratio is about 70/30, but many in this sample set are used to owning for 10-15 years, so naturally these buyers tend to just grab the 15-20% discounts and repeat the *****and-hold. And among those(in this group) with 40k to 60k miles and 4-5 years old cars(mostly 328i's), the often-quoted massive repair bills have not materialized, yet. This somewhat matches the peace and quiet of online F30 forums as far as heroic DIYs/repairs are concerned.

Maybe the avalanche of failures will arrive soon?
BrandTrader commented:
March 7, 2017, 2:44 am

I can see why, many see BMW as a luxury brand, but in my eyes the 3er is not a luxury car and this could be where much of the disappointment comes from. The other half think it's a sports car which it's not.

The disappointment I feel with my 3GT M-sport comes mainly from handling, steering feel, and interior finish. If I had paid full price I would have a hard time sleeping, but for what I paid and for the role as a family transport it works much better then my previous A4 S-line.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 4:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandTrader View Post
I can see why, many see BMW as a luxury brand, but in my eyes the 3er is not a luxury car and this could be where much of the disappointment comes from. The other half think it's a sports car which it's not.

The disappointment I feel with my 3GT M-sport comes mainly from handling, steering feel, and interior finish. If I had paid full price I would have a hard time sleeping, but for what I paid and for the role as a family transport it works much better then my previous A4 S-line.
How are prices in Japan like? Is there any discount off MSRP?

It can be true that F30 is drifting away from E46, but compared to E39(benchmark of balance between sportiness and luxury?), the F30 is still a worthy sports sedan.
Spiderm0n commented:
March 7, 2017, 7:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
With the F30, I think M-sport is an absolute MUST for the following reasons.

- Sport seats.
- M-sport steering so the gauges are not obstructed.
- M sport or M adaptive suspension.
- Better brake pads. [Overlooked by most people.]

It still does not feel as nice as an E46. I have zero attachment to this car, compared to my E46 which I held on to for almost 11 years and 220K miles.
Those are the options I went with. I should be picking mine up today.
Autoputzer commented:
March 7, 2017, 7:41 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Pricing will be addressable once production moves to Mexico.

I actually have no problems with the price. I would rather it cost even more and deliver an E46 like driving experience -- steering and suspension -- than cost less and deliver a Honda-style driving experience and quality of materials.
BMW could learn a lot from Honda on how to make a floor mat. The drivers floor mat in Frau Putzer's 2006 Accord, 135k miles, are just now starting to show wear.

BMW mats are so poorly made that I ordered two sets of spares when I bought the car. I also use the back floor mats to protect the driver's floor mat, alternating left and right rear mats and then rotating the mat when in place to even out the wear.
gkr778 commented:
March 7, 2017, 8:39 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The list actually has 11 cars, it looks like both Versa(sedan?) and Versa Note(hatchback) made the list.

Well it looks like the feedback is loud and clear, customers want cheap 3/4/5-series and X3.
Good catch namelessman! Nissan Versa Sedan also had the lowest possible rating overall satisfaction in Consumer Reports' owner satisfaction survey.

IMO, it's not that customers want cheap BMW 3/4/5-series and X3, it's that they want better value for the money. None of these BMW automobiles offer anything special in terms of driving experience, features, comfort, or styling compared to other models that cost a lot less. For example, BMW 3-Series did garner the highest possible rating for driving experience in CR's satisfaction survey, but so did Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Mazda 3, Volkswagen Golf, and Chevrolet Camaro (to name a few).

BMW automobiles purchased or leased new simply don't provide good value for the money. As mr_clueless mentioned, the cars fail to deliver what the BMW of NA sales and marketing dweebs suggest. And recent policy changes at BMW of NA (such as inferior terms for the included maintenance program on new cars) have made things even worse.
southcoastguy commented:
March 7, 2017, 9:01 am

I guess it depends what car you had before. I have been driving for over 50 years, so I have driven alot of cars, both cheap and relatively expensive. Before I bought my CPO 328, I drove a VW diesel. $100 oil changes were normal, but only one every 10K miles. Other repairs were ridiculously expensive; fix turn signal mechanism cost over $500, repair rear hatch lock was $300. Every car is expensive (compared to 20 years ago) to fix today, regardless of make.

My experience with my F30? Quiet (or quieter), great acceleration, good mileage (got 33 mpg on long trip) and very comfortable.
CALWATERBOY DUE commented:
March 7, 2017, 9:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
BMW mats are so poorly made that I ordered two sets of spares when I bought the car. I also use the back floor mats to protect the driver's floor mat, alternating left and right rear mats and then rotating the mat when in place to even out the wear.

Let me say this about that: '09 BMW 'weather' floor mats have been superb, providing bare foot cush in Summer; shrugging off slop in Winter. No sign of wear.
Autoputzer commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY DUE View Post
Let me say this about that: '09 BMW 'weather' floor mats have been superb, providing bare foot cush in Summer; shrugging off slop in Winter. No sign of wear.
"Weather" as in made of rubber instead of carpet?

A friend has the rubber ones in his '05 330ci. I can't take the smell.
RockyM commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:13 am

So, as a BMWCCA member I found a forum letter in the newsletter fairly disturbing. An old timer, who has purchased pre-owned BMW's for years, finally threw in the towel on BMW ownership. His reason had to do with what he had heard from BMW management, and his own experience. Management indicated the target demographic household income being >250k, and expect/desire for most customers to lease. Since there is limited profitability on pre-owned BMW's they have jacked up the parts prices by 300-400%, affectively discouraging the ownership of older model BMW's. This individual could no longer justify owning out of warranty BMW's, since the parts prices have in fact increased enormously, according to his experience.

I find this whole scenario a bit hard to believe, but hoping this is not the case.
JoeRock550 commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
"Weather" as in made of rubber instead of carpet?

A friend has the rubber ones in his '05 330ci. I can't take the smell.
The factory rubber mats in my old e46 M3 had a hole worn in them after not too long. For my last few cars I've bought WeatherTech mats, which are plastic instead of rubber and they are fantastic, especially in the winter. I think BMW dealers offer the same mats from the parts department but they are rebranded, and more expensive of course.

As for the original topic, dealers do tend to have 3 and 4 Series cars as service loaners and sales demos as well. These all make it on to the lot in less than a year as used cars.
chiefneil commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:47 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyM View Post
So, as a BMWCCA member I found a forum letter in the newsletter fairly disturbing. An old timer, who has purchased pre-owned BMW's for years, finally threw in the towel on BMW ownership. His reason had to do with what he had heard from BMW management, and his own experience. Management indicated the target demographic household income being >250k, and expect/desire for most customers to lease. Since there is limited profitability on pre-owned BMW's they have jacked up the parts prices by 300-400%, affectively discouraging the ownership of older model BMW's. This individual could no longer justify owning out of warranty BMW's, since the parts prices have in fact increased enormously, according to his experience.

I find this whole scenario a bit hard to believe, but hoping this is not the case.
I also find that a little hard to believe. The >250k demographic is about 5% of the US population, so it's hard to believe BMW would target such a tiny audience. The 1, 2, and 3 series are certainly affordable with a much lower income. I can see 5 and 7-series buyers generally having incomes over 250k though.

Also, the value of a used car affects the residual in a lease which affects the payment. If nobody wants to buy an off-lease used car, residuals drop and lease payments increase. So a thriving used car market is beneficial to a manufacturer. And of course dealers make most of their money off service, so they have an incentive to prefer older cars that need repairs.

Now when it comes to cars that are 10+ years old, yeah I can see car companies wishing those would spontaneously disintegrate or something. Those older cars don't bring in any money for the manufacturer or dealer since those owners either do the work themselves or go to an indie.
mr_clueless commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:50 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Now when it comes to cars that are 10+ years old, yeah I can see car companies wishing those would spontaneously disintegrate or something. Those older cars don't bring in any money for the manufacturer or dealer since those owners either do the work themselves or go to an indie.
Actually my 10+ year old E46 used to make money for both. Almost all the indies in my area get their parts from the local BMW dealer.
Spiderm0n commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:22 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
With the F30, I think M-sport is an absolute MUST for the following reasons.

- Sport seats.
- M-sport steering so the gauges are not obstructed.
- M sport or M adaptive suspension.
- Better brake pads. [Overlooked by most people.]
For a street-only performance driver with the M sport , it looks like a great bet would be the Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads. Any thoughts or experience with these?
Autoputzer commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:32 am

A lot of BMW dealers now offer reduced pricing for service and parts on older (10+ years?) cars, "value pricing" or something like that.

If a car's still in good shape cosmetically and mechanically, putting money into keeping it up is usually cheaper that the depreciation on a new one would be... at least when the car's below 100k miles.

Where I live, E60's are getting rare. E39's are unicorns. F10's are all over the place. The next county over from mine has better demographics than the Bubbaville I live in. Over there, F10's are sort the local version of a Toyota Camry.

Japan has a punitive safety and emission test every four years. It's so strict that a lot of the four year old Japanese cars really do disappear (exported to developing countries). Somebody on one of these boards said that Singapore has a very expensive registration tax on cars, and the registration is only good for ten years. Most ten year old cars aren't worth re-registering. So, they get scrapped or exported.

The article said that new car buyers keep their cars an average of 6.5 years. That sounds reasonable, about 75k miles. I'm on the 100k mile plan.

My credit union now offers eight year new car loans at 4.5%. With normal deprecation rates, that'd put somebody upside down in a new car for the first five or six years. But, this is a military credit union. Military members are forced to pay their bills.
need4speed commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:38 am

I.m sure a lot of this is disappointment about price from the badge kissers and people who wanted a Lexus type car, but discovered BMW can't out Lexus Lexus. If the better driving experience isn't paramount, most people will be happier with another make. Sales experience, servicing, cost of repairs and maintenance, if any of that matters very much in a buyers mind, likely BMW isn't for them. N4S
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 12:47 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Good catch namelessman! Nissan Versa Sedan also had the lowest possible rating overall satisfaction in Consumer Reports' owner satisfaction survey.

IMO, it's not that customers want cheap BMW 3/4/5-series and X3, it's that they want better value for the money. None of these BMW automobiles offer anything special in terms of driving experience, features, comfort, or styling compared to other models that cost a lot less. For example, BMW 3-Series did garner the highest possible rating for driving experience in CR's satisfaction survey, but so did Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Mazda 3, Volkswagen Golf, and Chevrolet Camaro (to name a few).

BMW automobiles purchased or leased new simply don't provide good value for the money. As mr_clueless mentioned, the cars fail to deliver what the BMW of NA sales and marketing dweebs suggest. And recent policy changes at BMW of NA (such as inferior terms for the included maintenance program on new cars) have made things even worse.
The article does say the 1-yr old C-class are sold at 20% off MSRP, and 3-series at 18% off. My thinking is that new cars(lease/purchase) can often get 15-20% these days, so the quick turnaround may not be too cost prohibitive to entertain.

Another aspect is that, some customers probably are surprised that the current 3 is a mini-5, and the current 5 is a baby-7, plus the lack of standard equipment, and the customers need to move to other cars for their needs.

And the article's comments about factory incentives to dealers for loaner purchases can be a factor, but 8% turnover out of total 3-series new car sales cannot be just loaners.
CrispyKickz commented:
March 7, 2017, 12:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderm0n View Post
For a street-only performance driver with the M sport , it looks like a great bet would be the Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads. Any thoughts or experience with these?
Can't speak for Hawk HPS in a BMW, but when I put on Hawk HPS+ pads on my Legacy GT, I put them on @ 50,000 miles and never had to replace them again. I sold the car at 165,000.

I probably won't need replacement pads for quite some time on the BMW (hoping to hit the brake service maintenance item before 50k) - but when I eventually do - its Hawk HPS all the way for me.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 1:10 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
I.m sure a lot of this is disappointment about price from the badge kissers and people who wanted a Lexus type car, but discovered BMW can't out Lexus Lexus. If the better driving experience isn't paramount, most people will be happier with another make. Sales experience, servicing, cost of repairs and maintenance, if any of that matters very much in a buyers mind, likely BMW isn't for them. N4S
My guess is that with 4-yr/50k new car warranty and 3-yr/36k free maintenance, the issues of repair and maintenance costs probably do not weight heavily to those who bail within 1 yr.

Our local sales and service experiences have been OK, so at least around here those should not entice early exits.

The Lexus comment can be valid, given Lexus prices usually include lots of standard equipment, and BMW does not. The lack of basic standard equipment(e.g. Nav, moonroof, leather, driver tech) has been a major deterrent to some of my friends considering BMW, so BMWNA should make an effort to include those without bumping up base MSRP.
Jerseyal commented:
March 7, 2017, 2:28 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyM View Post
So, as a BMWCCA member I found a forum letter in the newsletter fairly disturbing. An old timer, who has purchased pre-owned BMW's for years, finally threw in the towel on BMW ownership. His reason had to do with what he had heard from BMW management, and his own experience. Management indicated the target demographic household income being >250k, and expect/desire for most customers to lease. Since there is limited profitability on pre-owned BMW's they have jacked up the parts prices by 300-400%, affectively discouraging the ownership of older model BMW's. This individual could no longer justify owning out of warranty BMW's, since the parts prices have in fact increased enormously, according to his experience.

I find this whole scenario a bit hard to believe, but hoping this is not the case.
Unfortunately, I find this very plausible, since they make more money when people lease, than when they buy. at this point, i really want to keep my 340, but i may turn it in after the lease term ends, due to this.
LMK5 commented:
March 7, 2017, 2:39 pm

I think for any luxury brand the car must have at least a couple of signature attributes. For Lexus it's the ride, overall comfort, and the great reliability. For MB I guess it's the German version of Lexus, with the German engineering thrown in, and the plus of not being the luxury division of another make. For BMW, it seems like they're straddling the categories.

When I sat inside a C300 there was no doubt in my mind that if the price is equivalent to a 3-series (which it is), that it's a better buy. Current sales are bearing that out. The interior is just on another level and I don't think the 3-series makes up for that elsewhere. Audi's A4 has gotten universal praise, and when I build one on their site it comes out to be 2k cheaper than the 3, and with more safety equipment.

So what does BMW need to do with the 3? In my opinion the ride must be greatly improved as the first priority. After all, the base version (which just about everyone buys) is neither very sporty nor very comfortable. Granted, the current base suspension is better than my MY2014, but it doesn't put a smile on your face either. It isn't all that composed and it seems to fight off road impacts rather than absorb them. Add to that the heaving over road undulations and you start to think that BMW has done the near-impossible: they've given you the harsh impacts of a sport suspension and the bobbing and weaving of a lux-o-boat setup! This satisfies absolutely no one. Are the RFTs so bad that they've made the suspension designers' job nearly impossible?

I don't think m-sport is the answer, at least for me. I took an extended test drive in a 2017, and no doubt in my mind it is harsher than the pre-LCI, without a whole lot of handling improvement over the base. The pre-LCI, I thought, was a great balance of ride and handling. Coupled with the Michelins or Pirelli summer 18" tires, road impacts were much better handled than the pre-LCI base suspension. The m-sport steering wheel, while better, still hides instrument cluster information because the steering column shroud is too bulbous.

I sat in an Audi yesterday (got a test drive scheduled for Friday). A few things stood out immediately. First, the sound system volume at 50% is so much stronger and deeper than my car. Once again, I could feel the music rather than just listen to it. Second, I could actually see the engine start/stop button! Can't do that on a 3-series no matter which steering wheel you've got. Third, it has actual door lock open and close (not toggle) switches located on both front doors. Amazing! Lastly, the trunk release button location doesn't require you to be a yoga devotee. I recognized these things within 5 minutes of sitting in the driver's seat. The graphics on the screen also look quite a bit better than iDrive 5.0, but I don't want to pile on here.

So again, where are the signature items that grab the potential 3-series buyer? Now, in all fairness, I think the engine/trans. combo on this car is sheer genius. How exactly do you give me that kind of power and refinement and still return 36.8MPH on the freeway (my readings yesterday)? Insane. That's a signature item for this car but I don't think it's enough. Come on BMW, give me a suspension at least as good as a Honda Accord, an air conditioner at least as good as my 1997 Camry, and give me some tint on the glass while you're at it. At least give me that purple tint strip at the top of the windshield that my grandpa's 1976 Chevy Impala had.
Der_Kommissar commented:
March 7, 2017, 5:11 pm

I don't think its the car at all- its the person who buys a BMW. New people to the brand who have too much disposable income end up disappointed for whatever reason and leave. People who buy a BMW are more able to do this then people who buy a Mazda. Remember, this is correlation, not causation. It could be the cars or the owners.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 5:20 pm

It looks like the total number of 3-series sold by BMWNA in 2015 and 2016 was 164998. 8% of that would be 13200 cars that were resold.

Also note that there are around 350 dealers in the US. Our local volume leader probably has 100 loaners to churn every year.

Let's say hypothetically 100 of these dealers have at least 50 loaners, and the rest has 20 each, that's already 10000 3-series loaners per year, or 6% of total units.

If those numbers are believable, then the 3-series non-loaner "regrettable purchase" may not be that much off from the indstry average of 1.5%.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300385644.html
gkr778 commented:
March 7, 2017, 5:49 pm

On the other end of the spectrum, here are the passenger cars which the original owners were most likely to hold on to for 10 years or more:

Top 10 Passenger Cars Owners Keep for at Least 10 Years
Rank / Car Model / % Original Owners Who Keep Car for 10+ Years / Proportion Compared to Average

1 Toyota Prius/ 32.0%/ 2.5x
2 Toyota Avalon/ 21.6%/ 1.7x
3 Hyundai Azera/ 21.1%/ 1.6x
4 Toyota Corolla/ 20.4%/ 1.6x
5 Toyota Camry/ 20.3%/ 1.6x
6 Audi A3/ 18.9%/ 1.5x
7 Mazda MAZDA3/ 18.4%/ 1.4x
8 Honda Accord/ 17.7%/ 1.4x
9 Hyundai Elantra/ 17.5%/ 1.4x
10 Honda Civic/ 17.1%/ 1.3
Average for All Cars 12.9%

http://blog.iseecars.com/2016/12/15/...-keep-forever/
LMK5 commented:
March 7, 2017, 6:03 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
It looks like the total number of 3-series sold by BMWNA in 2015 and 2016 was 164998. 8% of that would be 13200 cars that were resold.

Also note that there are around 350 dealers in the US. Our local volume leader probably has 100 loaners to churn every year.

Let's say hypothetically 100 of these dealers have at least 50 loaners, and the rest has 20 each, that's already 10000 3-series loaners per year, or 6% of total units.

If those numbers are believable, then the 3-series non-loaner "regrettable purchase" may not be that much off from the indstry average of 1.5%.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300385644.html
Doesn't Lexus have a similar loaner pool/program as BMW? If so, why wouldn't they be showing up on the list like BMW and MB?
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 6:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Doesn't Lexus have a similar loaner pool/program as BMW? If so, why wouldn't they be showing up on the list like BMW and MB?
Great questions, maybe iseecars.com has data to show the non-loaner numbers?

There is no recent Lexus loaner experience for me, but it is possible LexusUSA does not provide as much incentives for dealers to acquire loaners(BMWNA pays $1750/loaner?), and/or Lexus needs a lot less work than BMW?!?

Also, Lexus maintenance/repair can be done at Toyota dealers, so that may reduce the number of Lexus loaners in service.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 6:46 pm

At least the 3 series is not on this list, ouch!

The Top 12 Cars to Buy Used, Not New
Rank Model % Price Difference Between New and 1-Year-Old Used $ Price Difference Between New and 1-Year-Old Used
1 FIAT 500L -34.6% -$8,096
2 Lincoln MKS -34.5% -$16,039
3 Volvo S60 -34.4% -$14,204
4 Kia Cadenza -34.3% -$12,940
5 Mercedes C250 -34.3% -$15,247
6 Nissan Maxima -34.0% -$12,469
7 Lincoln MKZ + MKZ Hybrid -33.8% -$14,177
8 Jaguar XF -32.3% -$19,966
9 FIAT 500 -31.9% -$6,099
10 Cadillac -31.8% -$13,351
11 Chrysler 300 -31.7% -$11,525
12 Buick Regal -31.2% -$10,117


"Eight of the cars on the list are models that are significantly less popular than their competitors, plus they are in segments that have seen a decline in new car sales lately," said Phong Ly, iSeeCars.com CEO. "For example, the compact luxury segment has seen an overall decline, but the Volvo S60, which was not a strong seller to begin with, has been hit harder than competitors such as the BMW 3 Series or the Audi A4. In addition, Fiat and Chrysler have been faced with dependability issues, further lessening their appeal."

http://blog.iseecars.com/2016/10/04/...*used-not-new/
wunderkind commented:
March 7, 2017, 6:53 pm

Simply put unless you amp up for a M-Sport rolling 19" wheels, a 3-series sedan is really quite dull compared to its segment rivals. Very much unlike it's previous gens which oozed character and fun. That or competition has caught up in the dynamics and offer style along with it. Maybe the majority of the 1-year old flips were 320i drivers that regretted not getting the 328i instead?

I'm actually surprised that the 4-series is up there as regrettable cars. It's quite the handsome GT coupe. I prefer it over the A5.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 7, 2017, 8:15 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
On the other end of the spectrum, here are the passenger cars which the original owners were most likely to hold on to for 10 years or more:

Top 10 Passenger Cars Owners Keep for at Least 10 Years
Rank / Car Model / % Original Owners Who Keep Car for 10+ Years / Proportion Compared to Average

1 Toyota Prius/ 32.0%/ 2.5x
2 Toyota Avalon/ 21.6%/ 1.7x
3 Hyundai Azera/ 21.1%/ 1.6x
4 Toyota Corolla/ 20.4%/ 1.6x
5 Toyota Camry/ 20.3%/ 1.6x
6 Audi A3/ 18.9%/ 1.5x
7 Mazda MAZDA3/ 18.4%/ 1.4x
8 Honda Accord/ 17.7%/ 1.4x
9 Hyundai Elantra/ 17.5%/ 1.4x
10 Honda Civic/ 17.1%/ 1.3
Average for All Cars 12.9%

http://blog.iseecars.com/2016/12/15/...-keep-forever/
Proving my comment that people couldnt give a rats ass about 'performance' or 'steering feel' or whatever, or even ride quality. Ever spent much time driving a Prius around bad city streets? Doesnt exactly have a plush ride. Lets see, its slow, it looks like a sperm and it gets really good mpg and its reliable/cheap to buy and own. Thats why people are so prius loyal. And people like to appear that they care about the earth and that they are 'good', responsible people so the Prius is king.

People care about value, mpg and reliability and thats it. You guys talking about bmw vs audi vs merc performance and interior quality are seriously missing the point
LMK5 commented:
March 7, 2017, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
Proving my comment that people couldnt give a rats ass about 'performance' or 'steering feel' or whatever, or even ride quality. Ever spent much time driving a Prius around bad city streets? Doesnt exactly have a plush ride. Lets see, its slow, it looks like a sperm and it gets really good mpg and its reliable/cheap to buy and own. Thats why people are so prius loyal. And people like to appear that they care about the earth and that they are 'good', responsible people so the Prius is king.

People care about value, mpg and reliability and thats it. You guys talking about bmw vs audi vs merc performance and interior quality are seriously missing the point
Very true. Hey kafka, have you seen the latest Prius? I always thought the previous version was the ugliest car on the road. Whenever I saw one I immediately thought "egg." But Toyota has simply pushed the ugliness envelope to its limits with this latest sample. I'm wondering what that says about car buyers.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 7, 2017, 8:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Very true. Hey kafka, have you seen the latest Prius? I always thought the previous version was the ugliest car on the road. Whenever I saw one I immediately thought "egg." But Toyota has simply pushed the ugliness envelope to its limits with this latest sample. I'm wondering what that says about car buyers.
Yeah they are silly looking. Suuuuper Asian. It says that they will buy anything that has good mpg, good 'value' and brand cache that in this case, makes them look like they care about the earth. For the record, Prius are generally dead reliable and I have been in Taxis (before the days of Uber) that were Prius with well over 250k miles on them, going strong. They will go forever and all you have to eat at some point is the battery cost, which is hefty, but still. Nothing like owning and maintaining a BMW for the long haul.

I am seriously considering looking at a CPO 2017 Audi A4 Premium Plus when this lease is done. Audis still don't lease well and currently, BMW do. I quickly got a quote on an A4 when I was ready to jump out of the 320i and into this car and quotes were usually like $2999 due at signing and $478 a month. I'm sure I could have gotten a hair better but for what I am paying for this car, there is NOTHING on the market that touches it. You find me another guy out there who is leasing a 2016 328i M sport equipped like mine for $366 a month and we'll talk. I bet most people leasing now A4's are hovering around $500. I'm a luxury car value shopper and don't give a **** about ordering pristine factory cars that are optioned just so and I want as much car I can get for the least amount of money. I haven't driven the A4 but I'm certain its better than the F30. I would rather have the extra $6000 in my pocket over a 3 year run to drive the 'inferior' F30 328. Granted, everyone's mileage and results may vary but I think a lot of people get into a 3 series for far more $ than they should and then they start tripping out because yeah, a baseline 320 or 328 just isn't that great of a car. All you have to do is look at Craigslist for lease returns, people wanting to jump ship, and a lot of people are paying high $400's into the mid $500's for pretty basic 328i. Thats a lot of coin for that car.

But yeah, definitely going to go and drive some CPO A4's in 2019. A4 reliability has been solid for a while now and the new one is supposed to be reliable as well. Audi has a good CPO program and depreciation is a mother****er on those cars so I could prob find a nice Quattro premium plus A4 lease-return for low $30's, at most. I am frankly kind of over the leasing thing I think. I mean I have another few years but I don't think I want to lease indefinitely. I also kind of feel like I have seen the BMW movie and know how it ends and it ends with the next model being softer and more expensive than the current model. Guys thinking that BMW is going to bring back some heroic sport sedan might be disappointed.
Southpaw7890 commented:
March 7, 2017, 8:40 pm

I waited long and hard for mine. 2013 335i M Sport with 27k miles for 27K. MSRP was 53k at the time of initial purchase. No thanks, ill let the poor sap before me pay for it. And like one of the other posters said, I've got friends who are paying almost double my monthly for a new elantra.
Autoputzer commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:18 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
On the other end of the spectrum, here are the passenger cars which the original owners were most likely to hold on to for 10 years or more:

Top 10 Passenger Cars Owners Keep for at Least 10 Years
Rank / Car Model / % Original Owners Who Keep Car for 10+ Years / Proportion Compared to Average

1 Toyota Prius/ 32.0%/ 2.5x
2 Toyota Avalon/ 21.6%/ 1.7x
3 Hyundai Azera/ 21.1%/ 1.6x
4 Toyota Corolla/ 20.4%/ 1.6x
5 Toyota Camry/ 20.3%/ 1.6x
6 Audi A3/ 18.9%/ 1.5x
7 Mazda MAZDA3/ 18.4%/ 1.4x
8 Honda Accord/ 17.7%/ 1.4x
9 Hyundai Elantra/ 17.5%/ 1.4x
10 Honda Civic/ 17.1%/ 1.3
Average for All Cars 12.9%

http://blog.iseecars.com/2016/12/15/...-keep-forever/
I suspect the reason the Prius is on that list is that at the ten year mark the owners have recently replaced the batteries ($3k to $5k) and they're keeping them to get their use out of the new batteries. Also, keeping a car on the road a long time reduces one's environmental footprint, or whatever you want to call it.

All three of Frau Putzer's new cars are on that list and were around ten years: Chevy Nova (rebadged Toyota Corolla), Honda Civic, and a Honda Accord.

I've taken a 1976 VW Rabbit, a 2002 M3, and a 2007 Cobalt to the ten year mark after being bought new.
BrandTrader commented:
March 7, 2017, 10:50 pm

So it's not just me. I got a little over 10000km (6000miles) and the driver side mat looks terrible, in 6 more months it will be a doughnut with a hole under the pedals.
namelessman commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
On the other end of the spectrum, here are the passenger cars which the original owners were most likely to hold on to for 10 years or more:

Top 10 Passenger Cars Owners Keep for at Least 10 Years
Rank / Car Model / % Original Owners Who Keep Car for 10+ Years / Proportion Compared to Average

1 Toyota Prius/ 32.0%/ 2.5x
2 Toyota Avalon/ 21.6%/ 1.7x
3 Hyundai Azera/ 21.1%/ 1.6x
4 Toyota Corolla/ 20.4%/ 1.6x
5 Toyota Camry/ 20.3%/ 1.6x
6 Audi A3/ 18.9%/ 1.5x
7 Mazda MAZDA3/ 18.4%/ 1.4x
8 Honda Accord/ 17.7%/ 1.4x
9 Hyundai Elantra/ 17.5%/ 1.4x
10 Honda Civic/ 17.1%/ 1.3
Average for All Cars 12.9%

http://blog.iseecars.com/2016/12/15/...-keep-forever/
It looks like none of these brands has loaner programs except A3?.
BrandTrader commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:05 pm

[Japan has a punitive safety and emission test every four years. It's so strict that a lot of the four year old Japanese cars really do disappear (exported to developing countries). ]

Actually that's incorrect, The inspection is after 3 years for a new car, and every 2 years after that. Along with the inspection is a tax based on vehicle weight, and mandatory insurance. Also every year you are taxed on engine displacement. The test isn't very strict and any home mechanic with a manual and inspection rule book could prepare a car for the test. It basically keeps POS off the road, which are then, usual 9+ years old, sent off to lovely places like Iran.

Which means cheap bastards like me can drive 3 year old (low/low/low mileage) Germans for 60%~ off MSRP.
darkmann commented:
March 7, 2017, 11:34 pm

I read through most of the posts. I own a 2003 325i (E46) and a friend of mine wants a 2015 328i immediately, so he got to me for opinions, and I am getting to you folks for opinions - I'm going to post on general also, but this thread seems to apply directly to me. Not trying to hijack the OP's post, but reading through the responses to the OP, it sounds like MY15 or later are more user friendly. I'll take any advise. Thanks.
eazy commented:
March 8, 2017, 12:18 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
Yeah they are silly looking. Suuuuper Asian. It says that they will buy anything that has good mpg, good 'value' and brand cache that in this case, makes them look like they care about the earth. For the record, Prius are generally dead reliable and I have been in Taxis (before the days of Uber) that were Prius with well over 250k miles on them, going strong. They will go forever and all you have to eat at some point is the battery cost, which is hefty, but still. Nothing like owning and maintaining a BMW for the long haul.

I am seriously considering looking at a CPO 2017 Audi A4 Premium Plus when this lease is done. Audis still don't lease well and currently, BMW do. I quickly got a quote on an A4 when I was ready to jump out of the 320i and into this car and quotes were usually like $2999 due at signing and $478 a month. I'm sure I could have gotten a hair better but for what I am paying for this car, there is NOTHING on the market that touches it. You find me another guy out there who is leasing a 2016 328i M sport equipped like mine for $366 a month and we'll talk. I bet most people leasing now A4's are hovering around $500. I'm a luxury car value shopper and don't give a **** about ordering pristine factory cars that are optioned just so and I want as much car I can get for the least amount of money. I haven't driven the A4 but I'm certain its better than the F30. I would rather have the extra $6000 in my pocket over a 3 year run to drive the 'inferior' F30 328. Granted, everyone's mileage and results may vary but I think a lot of people get into a 3 series for far more $ than they should and then they start tripping out because yeah, a baseline 320 or 328 just isn't that great of a car. All you have to do is look at Craigslist for lease returns, people wanting to jump ship, and a lot of people are paying high $400's into the mid $500's for pretty basic 328i. Thats a lot of coin for that car.

But yeah, definitely going to go and drive some CPO A4's in 2019. A4 reliability has been solid for a while now and the new one is supposed to be reliable as well. Audi has a good CPO program and depreciation is a mother****er on those cars so I could prob find a nice Quattro premium plus A4 lease-return for low $30's, at most. I am frankly kind of over the leasing thing I think. I mean I have another few years but I don't think I want to lease indefinitely. I also kind of feel like I have seen the BMW movie and know how it ends and it ends with the next model being softer and more expensive than the current model. Guys thinking that BMW is going to bring back some heroic sport sedan might be disappointed.
You can get a 2017 A4 prem plus q for under $500 a month with 0 cap cost reduction. some people on the Edmunds a4 lease forums are getting A4's under 500. I recommend getting audicare since it increase your residual by 1%
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 8, 2017, 12:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkmann View Post
I read through most of the posts. I own a 2003 325i (E46) and a friend of mine wants a 2015 328i immediately, so he got to me for opinions, and I am getting to you folks for opinions - I'm going to post on general also, but this thread seems to apply directly to me. Not trying to hijack the OP's post, but reading through the responses to the OP, it sounds like MY15 or later are more user friendly. I'll take any advise. Thanks.
If getting an F30, I would go with the 2015 or 2016, nothing before that. Main bonus I can see, and I don't care if its fake, but the active sound design they implemented for the engine is a night and day improvement. Sounds amazing at WOT. I don't care that its synthetic. The M3 has the same thing now, its 2017, what are you gonna do? The Pre-2015 n20 engine sounds like ****. I had it in my 320i and I can only equate it to a hair dryer at WOT. The 4 cylinder in my 2010 Mazda3 sounded better. But 2015, they did the active sound and it just sounds great. They made some little changes and interior improvements to the 2016 LCI but if getting stagnant M sport suspension, its a little better in the pre LCI. Heres mine and how it sounds wide open throttle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p68s92HFFc
gkr778 commented:
March 8, 2017, 1:12 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
It looks like none of these brands has loaner programs except A3?.

Seriously though, the impact of loaner car fleets is nugatory to any model on either the list mentioned on the OP ("regrettable cars") or the "keep for 10 years or more" list.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:01 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post

Seriously though, the impact of loaner car fleets is nugatory to any model on either the list mentioned on the OP ("regrettable cars") or the "keep for 10 years or more" list.
Check these out:

http://www.bmwnorthscottsdale.com/in...model=3+series

This dealer currently has 51 MY17 3-series loaners for sale.

The closet 5 local dealers probably have 350-400 loaners, 90%+ 3-series. It looks like dealers use the loaner program to grab extra allocations and increase sales volume.

The following article also says BMWNA offers loaner incentives every quarter, so that increase the loaner churn(and bump up the "regrettable purchase" stats) even further.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...oaners-report-
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:58 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Doesn't Lexus have a similar loaner pool/program as BMW? If so, why wouldn't they be showing up on the list like BMW and MB?
Update: the article mentioned in post#56 says Lexus loaner program requires loaners to be at least 1-yr old before selling, so the Lexus loaners will not be counted in post#1's list.
CALWATERBOY DUE commented:
March 8, 2017, 11:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyM View Post
Since there is limited profitability on pre-owned BMW's they have jacked up the parts prices by 300-400%, affectively discouraging the ownership of older model BMW's. This individual could no longer justify owning out of warranty BMW's, since the parts prices have in fact increased enormously, according to his experience.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WN6a0cSf78I
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 12:18 pm

That's a well made Honda ad, maybe the Honda engineers should go after the "impossible dream" of a 50/50 FWD, at least without putting deadweight in the trunk.
gkr778 commented:
March 8, 2017, 12:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Update: the article mentioned in post#56 says Lexus loaner program requires loaners to be at least 1-yr old before selling, so the Lexus loaners will not be counted in post#1's list.
Also, the "fine print" at the bottom of the Forbes article in the OP mentions that only " individual new car sales" were considered by iSeeCars.com and that "new cars with more than 500 miles and used cars with fewer than 4,000 miles were excluded from further analysis". This makes the impact of loaner cars fleets nugatory, as mentioned earlier.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 12:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Also, the "fine print" at the bottom of the Forbes article in the OP mentions that only " individual new car sales" were considered by iSeeCars.com and that "new cars with more than 500 miles and used cars with fewer than 4,000 miles were excluded from further analysis". This makes the impact of loaner cars fleets nugatory, as mentioned earlier.
Great point, so are loaners(punched and registered as commercial) considered as new cars in this study?

Many of these loaners for sale fit into the "used cars with more than 4000 miles" category, which are not excluded from analysis(if they are not considered as new cars).
LMK5 commented:
March 8, 2017, 1:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Great questions, maybe iseecars.com has data to show the non-loaner numbers?

There is no recent Lexus loaner experience for me, but it is possible LexusUSA does not provide as much incentives for dealers to acquire loaners(BMWNA pays $1750/loaner?), and/or Lexus needs a lot less work than BMW?!?

Also, Lexus maintenance/repair can be done at Toyota dealers, so that may reduce the number of Lexus loaners in service.
Is that so? I'm surprised because I believe a Honda dealer won't work on an Acura. My friend goes to the Acura dealer and pays $100 for an oil change on his MDX; I go to the Honda dealer and get it done on my Odyssey for $50 for the exact same 3.5L V6 hehe.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 1:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Is that so? I'm surprised because I believe a Honda dealer won't work on an Acura. My friend goes to the Acura dealer and pays $100 for an oil change; I go to the Honda dealer and get it done for $50 for the exact same 3.5L V6 hehe.
Our local Honda dealers do oil change for Acura, but still charge Acura prices. Is the difference mainly non-synthetic versus synthetic prices? Honda pays $100(?) for synthetic oil change too, right?
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 1:32 pm

For full disclosure the article says this:

"The fine print: iSeeCars.com analyzed over 24 million individual new car sales of model years 2015-2017 in calendar years 2015 and 2016, identifying which were re-listed between four months and a year of its original sale date. New cars with more than 500 miles and used cars with fewer than 4,000 miles were excluded from further analysis. Models with fewer than 50,000 new car sales registered were also excluded from the list. The number of cars relisted as used was then expressed as a percentage of the number of new car sales."

So how are new cars with >500 miles relisted? Are these referring to demos that are not registered? If so, they are not really "relisted", as they are listed "brand new" for first time, right?

My thinking is that the loaners will fall under "used cars with > 4000 miles", and are relisted for resale. If so, those will be included in the analysis.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 1:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Actually my 10+ year old E46 used to make money for both. Almost all the indies in my area get their parts from the local BMW dealer.
Do check out A3/S3 sedan, those currently seem to be closet to E46 sedan.
LMK5 commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:23 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Our local Honda dealers do oil change for Acura, but still charge Acura prices. Is the difference mainly non-synthetic versus synthetic prices? Honda pays $100(?) for synthetic oil change too, right?
What a racket! The Acura owner pays double the price for the same work that the guy sitting in the plastic chair next to him is getting.

The $50 I pay (with coupon) is for full synthetic for my Honda. FWIW, when I had a 2013 Nissan Altima the price was the same at the dealer for full synthetic.
Autoputzer commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
That's a well made Honda ad, maybe the Honda engineers should go after the "impossible dream" of a 50/50 FWD, at least without putting deadweight in the trunk.
Ironically, almost all the iconic Honda's in that ad (except the CR-Z and Accord) were rear-wheel drive (if they had driven wheels, excluding propellers and turbo-fan engines).

Yeah, Honda screwed up a long time ago by not admitting that different situations call for different architectures. Acura would be a lot more popular if the larger ones were RWD.

Compact cars with a need for cabin volume need FWD. That's why I don't bitch about the FWD-based X1 or the Chinese-market FWD 1 Series sedan. FWD is appropriate for those applications. My F10 is cramped inside compared to Frau Putzer's 2006 Accord. A lot of the F10's length is used for that in-line six engine instead of my legs.
LMK5 commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
Ironically, almost all the iconic Honda's in that ad (except the CR-Z and Accord) were rear-wheel drive (if they had driven wheels, excluding propellers and turbo-fan engines).

Yeah, Honda screwed up a long time ago by not admitting that different situations call for different architectures. Acura would be a lot more popular if the larger ones were RWD.

Compact cars with a need for cabin volume need FWD. That's why I don't bitch about the FWD-based X1 or the Chinese-market FWD 1 Series sedan. FWD is appropriate for those applications.
True. The problem is that when the engine power is too potent it's way too easy to spin the wheels.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
True. The problem is that when the engine power is too potent it's way too easy to spin the wheels.
There are many acronyms invented to deal with the wheel-spin problem, but in general 60/40(e.g.) is somewhat analogous to ben-hur chariots.
Autoputzer commented:
March 8, 2017, 3:40 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
There are many acronyms invented to deal with the wheel-spin problem, but in general 60/40(e.g.) is somewhat analogous to ben-hur chariots.
Yeah, but 40/60, e.g. 911, makes for epic acceleration and braking. Their acronym, PSM (Porsche Stability Managment, a.k.a. Please Save Me), and really wide tires and bulging rear quarter panels mean that modern 911's don't want to kill you if you enter a turn a little to fast now.
gkr778 commented:
March 8, 2017, 5:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
For full disclosure the article says this:

"The fine print: iSeeCars.com analyzed over 24 million individual new car sales of model years 2015-2017 in calendar years 2015 and 2016, identifying which were re-listed between four months and a year of its original sale date. New cars with more than 500 miles and used cars with fewer than 4,000 miles were excluded from further analysis. Models with fewer than 50,000 new car sales registered were also excluded from the list. The number of cars relisted as used was then expressed as a percentage of the number of new car sales."

So how are new cars with >500 miles relisted? Are these referring to demos that are not registered? If so, they are not really "relisted", as they are listed "brand new" for first time, right?
I'll send an e-mail to iSeeCars.com for more details on their methodology, including presenting the questions you noted. If they reply, I'll post the relevant info in this thread.
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 5:21 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
I'll send an e-mail to iSeeCars.com for more details on their methodology, including presenting the questions you noted. If they reply, I'll post the relevant info in this thread.
Very cool.

The wordings seem a bit convoluted, but the article seems to imply that, among the new car sales, any new car with > 500 miles is excluded.

And used cars need to be > 4000 miles, and relisted within 4 months and 1 year, to be considered for the study.

So new car sales that become loaners, and eventually relisted within 4 months and 1 year, and with > 4000 miles, should be considered in the study.

Sound plausible?
carstrucksbuses commented:
March 8, 2017, 5:41 pm

Yea!! Who developed the concept of "CPO" anyway?
anselansel commented:
March 8, 2017, 5:52 pm

"I can see why, many see BMW as a luxury brand, but in my eyes the 3er is not a luxury car and this could be where much of the disappointment comes from. The other half think it's a sports car which it's not."

I bought one of those 1 year old cars.....for a deep discount. It was what i wanted, a zippy car that got great( in my eyes) mileage. A good looking car especially after i detailed it to my standards. Now, buying it new? for that MSRP?, with these features? BWAAAA, not in a million years. BMW is a terrible value proposition, bad depreciation, expensive to maintain and not competitive at all on options. An accord beats the crap out of them in every category, except joy to drive. It is a fun car to drive but so what, i'm not driving through the backwoods of germany anytime soon.....
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 6:00 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselansel View Post
I bought one of those 1 year old cars.....for a deep discount. It was what i wanted, a zippy car that got great( in my eyes) mileage. A good looking car especially after i detailed it to my standards. Now, buying it new? for that MSRP?, with these features? BWAAAA, not in a million years. BMW is a terrible value proposition, bad depreciation, expensive to maintain and not competitive at all on options. An accord beats the crap out of them in every category, except joy to drive. It is a fun car to drive but so what, i'm not driving through the backwoods of germany anytime soon.....
My thinking is that if bought new with 15-20% off MSRP, the F30 may not be too bad, esp. if 1-year old car is almost 20% off as suggested by the article.

As suggested the Accord cannot beat F30 in the category of joy to drive, and that may be worth it to those who have opportunities to be joyful.
like2ace commented:
March 8, 2017, 6:17 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Come on BMW, give me a suspension at least as good as a Honda Accord, an air conditioner at least as good as my 1997 Camry, and give me some tint on the glass while you're at it. At least give me that purple tint strip at the top of the windshield that my grandpa's 1976 Chevy Impala had.
I agree with you about the Audi A4 but the MB C class was never an option for me when I got my 328i.

I got mine CPO (at a nice discount) and was not in any delusion as to what I was getting. Silky, linear acceleration and fantastic transmission/ MPG numbers. So far I have used mine for hauling all sorts of stuff including family gear - we have a child seat in the back. I plan to keep mine until at least 75K miles or it falls or apart whatever happens earlier. My AC has been great (built in SA)even under the hottest sun and I am ok with the suspension - I have an Accord as well.

Not worried about routine maintenance and water and tear items as our 328i has been trouble free since purchase. As someone said, most people don't know what/why they are buying until it fails to meet their perceived notions.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 8, 2017, 7:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
I agree with you about the Audi A4 but the MB C class was never an option for me when I got my 328i.

I got mine CPO (at a nice discount) and was not in any delusion as to what I was getting. Silky, linear acceleration and fantastic transmission/ MPG numbers. So far I have used mine for hauling all sorts of stuff including family gear - we have a child seat in the back. I plan to keep mine until at least 75K miles or it falls or apart whatever happens earlier. My AC has been great (built in SA)even under the hottest sun and I am ok with the suspension - I have an Accord as well.

Not worried about routine maintenance and water and tear items as our 328i has been trouble free since purchase. As someone said, most people don't know what/why they are buying until it fails to meet their perceived notions.
Nice post
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 9:39 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
I agree with you about the Audi A4 but the MB C class was never an option for me when I got my 328i.

I got mine CPO (at a nice discount) and was not in any delusion as to what I was getting. Silky, linear acceleration and fantastic transmission/ MPG numbers. So far I have used mine for hauling all sorts of stuff including family gear - we have a child seat in the back. I plan to keep mine until at least 75K miles or it falls or apart whatever happens earlier. My AC has been great (built in SA)even under the hottest sun and I am ok with the suspension - I have an Accord as well.

Not worried about routine maintenance and water and tear items as our 328i has been trouble free since purchase. As someone said, most people don't know what/why they are buying until it fails to meet their perceived notions.
Yes the 3 value-added attributes of my F30 to me are the N26 engine, ZF 8AT, and 50/50 RWD chassis. The OEM Pirelli P7 is a bit harsh, but the current set of DriveGuard does match well with the base suspension. This F30 fits my expectation as an E39 successor quite well.

Within my *very small* data set the published 8% 3-series "regrettable purchase" resale is not observed, so it is of interest to check if the reported 8% first-year resale rate includes parameters unique to BMW/3-series(e.g. loaner "recycling"?)
Adrianpask commented:
March 8, 2017, 10:16 pm

I am one of them. I bought a CPO 335xi and got rid of it after 4 weeks.

I couldn't sit in it for more than twenty minutes without substantial neck and shoulder pain. The top of the seat was about three inches lower down than the top of my shoulders, and the bolstering pushed my shoulders uncomfortably forwards.

Fun to drive. Painful to sit in. Had to go.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
namelessman commented:
March 8, 2017, 10:19 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianpask View Post
I am one of them. I bought a CPO 335xi and got rid of it after 4 weeks.

I couldn't sit in it for more than twenty minutes without substantial neck and shoulder pain. The top of the seat was about three inches lower down than the top of my shoulders, and the bolstering pushed my shoulders uncomfortably forwards.

Fun to drive. Painful to sit in. Had to go.
Was the problem with the sport seat side bolster?
Adrianpask commented:
March 8, 2017, 10:20 pm

No, the top of the seat was simply too low down. When I accelerated, it would dig into my shoulder blades.

For reference, I'm 6'4....But my 'average' friend found it equally uncomfortable.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
Adrianpask commented:
March 8, 2017, 10:36 pm

Oh....And the worst sound system I've bought on a car since the early 2000's.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
mr_clueless commented:
March 8, 2017, 11:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Yes the 3 value-added attributes of my F30 to me are the N26 engine, ZF 8AT, and 50/50 RWD chassis. The OEM Pirelli P7 is a bit harsh, but the current set of DriveGuard does match well with the base suspension. This F30 fits my expectation as an E39 successor quite well.

Within my *very small* data set the published 8% 3-series "regrettable purchase" resale is not observed, so it is of interest to check if the reported 8% first-year resale rate includes parameters unique to BMW/3-series(e.g. loaner "recycling"?)
There were a lot of folks that complained here but they used to be driven away by BJ.
namelessman commented:
March 9, 2017, 2:11 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
There were a lot of folks that complained here but they used to be driven away by BJ.
That is true, maybe some of those folks have moved on to other brands?

Obviously mine is way past first year to be eligible for regrettable purchase, but could it have been one of them?

The biggest two gripes of F30 seems to be steering and suspension, but those 2(including base suspension!) work just fine for me. The car feels right, i.e., not too harsh nor edgy at low speed, on-center and tight at high speed. But if those two had not been up to my expectation(probably low by fester's standard), my car could have been part of the "regrettable" stats too.

So that is my story, now 4.5 years and 40k+ miles and counting.
namelessman commented:
March 9, 2017, 2:37 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
Ironically, almost all the iconic Honda's in that ad (except the CR-Z and Accord) were rear-wheel drive (if they had driven wheels, excluding propellers and turbo-fan engines).

Yeah, Honda screwed up a long time ago by not admitting that different situations call for different architectures. Acura would be a lot more popular if the larger ones were RWD.

Compact cars with a need for cabin volume need FWD. That's why I don't bitch about the FWD-based X1 or the Chinese-market FWD 1 Series sedan. FWD is appropriate for those applications. My F10 is cramped inside compared to Frau Putzer's 2006 Accord. A lot of the F10's length is used for that in-line six engine instead of my legs.
This looks interesting.

It is only sold in Asia(China-only), 8-speed DCT plus TC on 2.4L N/A, 3520-lb(1600kg), 208HP/182lb-ft, 0-62.5mph 8.2 seconds. F30 320i looks like a hero when compared to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMp9DRL537Y
like2ace commented:
March 9, 2017, 11:13 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianpask View Post
I am one of them. I bought a CPO 335xi and got rid of it after 4 weeks.

I couldn't sit in it for more than twenty minutes without substantial neck and shoulder pain. The top of the seat was about three inches lower down than the top of my shoulders, and the bolstering pushed my shoulders uncomfortably forwards.

Fun to drive. Painful to sit in. Had to go.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
Hello !! Did you not do an extended test drive BEFORE buying ??? Its pointless to buy a car when you are sleepwalking....
Adrianpask commented:
March 9, 2017, 11:31 am

Hi, clearly not long enough! Unfortunately my "princess and the pea moment" took a few weeks coming.

It certainly was an expensive piece of feedback (I lost about $1200 trading the car in)!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 9, 2017, 12:01 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianpask View Post
Hi, clearly not long enough! Unfortunately my "princess and the pea moment" took a few weeks coming.

It certainly was an expensive piece of feedback (I lost about $1200 trading the car in)!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
How is that possible that you only lost $1200 trading it in that soon? Sales tax alone on the car must have been about $3000. You dont magically get that back when you trade it in
Adrianpask commented:
March 9, 2017, 12:34 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
How is that possible that you only lost $1200 trading it in that soon? Sales tax alone on the car must have been about $3000. You dont magically get that back when you trade it in
You're right, that was misleading. What I meant was that I traded it in for 1200 less than the price I paid for it.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Bimmerfest mobile app
namelessman commented:
March 9, 2017, 12:35 pm

This study may highlight another benefit of lease. Assuming $1500 drive off and $350-400/month(for a, say, $45k car), lessee probably can easily transfer lease within first year and only take a hit of $1500, right?
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 9, 2017, 3:04 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This study may highlight another benefit of lease. Assuming $1500 drive off and $350-400/month(for a, say, $45k car), lessee probably can easily transfer lease within first year and only take a hit of $1500, right?
Yes, depending on your original lease deal. Like in my case, my payment is so low for what the car is, if I needed to throw it on swapalease or something, I would have no trouble getting takers. I could prob even recoup the cash on the deal like, "assume my payment of $366 a month on this 2016 328 M sport and $1500 cash" or whatever.

There was a point with the 320 that I was pretty sick of that car, maybe a year and a half in and I threw it on one of those.. I think lease trader, for a minute, and at the time my payment was $367 and I had 4 interested parties in the first week. I think I was assuming eating the drive off fees and I am so cheap that I couldn't bare to do that so I kept the car for another 14 months; even though the drive offs are a sunk cost no matter how you look at it

If you have a good lease deal/low monthly payment, I theorize that it is much easier to bounce from that car free and clear, esp with BMW who make it pretty easy to do a lease transfer, vs. having to sell a car you are upside down on, or a car you put some epic down payment on, only to try and 'recoup' some of your losses in vain, in the face of epic depreciation. I did this on my 2010 Mazda3 2.5. I had an unREAL selling scenario with that car. I put $5000 down, it was like a $25k car and my payment was $389 a month. I had it for 6 months and listed it on CL. I tried to push the fact that it was fully under factory warranty, basically new and cheaper than any CPO on the market. I was asking $19500 I think... Somehow, I found a girl via CL that wanted the car and she bought it for my asking price, which was above blue book value, we went to chase bank that carried the loan, she paid the loan directly and I got the difference in cash. Its hard to say the bath I took on that car but even under a stellar circumstance, I got destroyed on that deal.

Ive said it once and Ill say it again. Unless you are sure you are hanging onto that car for like, years, buying new or newish cars is for the birds. Either lease them, buy them new and keep them for 20 years or buy them 5+ years old. Even a 3 year old car is in the throws of much depreciation. What is funny to me are these guys that insist on buying cars and not leasing them but they get a new car every 3 years. That is by far the most expensive way to fly.
namelessman commented:
March 9, 2017, 4:26 pm

My wild guess is that the study from iSeeCars.com shows the side effects of 15-20% off MSRP, cheap leases and loaner resales. All 3 increase new car volumes, and allow buyers/lessees/dealer to unload sooner with less pain than the past. The study does explicitly mention loaner resales, and strippers, as reasons of the high relist %, and 3-series fit nicely into that framework.

And festers are right that value for the money is not that good, and marketing oversells the ultimate driving experience, otherwise customers will not become detached within 1 year. E.g. customers head in expecting 50% extra ride for 35% price premium, but become disappointed the car can only deliver 10-15% extra value, or maybe 0% or -15% value, given many standard features are absent.

From another angle, the marketing can be deemed successful as the new car sales and resales(with CPOs) both generate revenues. My sense is that the free money facilitates these churns a lot, both from BMWNA/BMWFS and customer sides, so when the free money dries up, the trends will revert to norm again.
f30jojo commented:
March 9, 2017, 9:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILD_757 View Post
People are probably buying them as a status symbol and then realizing the payments are not worth it.
BOOM, nail on the head... ESPECIALLY zero option 320s/528s. They're everywhere.

Sent from my XT1650 using Bimmerfest mobile app
namelessman commented:
March 10, 2017, 1:12 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bmw-ra...103437161.html

This is posted on other forums. BMWFS is already reacting to this by rolling back some lease subsidies, so will that knock 3-series off from the top of the quick turnaround list?

"Ellinghorst voiced surprise at the extent of negative adjustments that included estimated resale values for leased vehicles. Those contributed to 498 million euros of "eliminations" from fourth-quarter profit.

The numbers show "a lot of residual value pressure or conservatism", he said, adding that automakers typically anticipate lower resale values as markets peak."
LMK5 commented:
March 10, 2017, 1:26 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
I agree with you about the Audi A4 but the MB C class was never an option for me when I got my 328i.

I got mine CPO (at a nice discount) and was not in any delusion as to what I was getting. Silky, linear acceleration and fantastic transmission/ MPG numbers. So far I have used mine for hauling all sorts of stuff including family gear - we have a child seat in the back. I plan to keep mine until at least 75K miles or it falls or apart whatever happens earlier. My AC has been great (built in SA)even under the hottest sun and I am ok with the suspension - I have an Accord as well.

Not worried about routine maintenance and water and tear items as our 328i has been trouble free since purchase. As someone said, most people don't know what/why they are buying until it fails to meet their perceived notions.
Questions:

--Do you have the standard suspension?
--What temperature do you set when using the AC in AUTO mode?
--Are your windows tinted?
like2ace commented:
March 10, 2017, 1:59 pm

Temp is set to 70 F and yes to other 2 questions
PK2348 commented:
March 10, 2017, 2:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
How is that possible that you only lost $1200 trading it in that soon? Sales tax alone on the car must have been about $3000. You dont magically get that back when you trade it in
Depending on the state, when you trade in a vehicle only the difference between the trade in value and the new car you're purchasing is subject to sales tax.
At times it can make trade in a better financial option than private sale.
mr_clueless commented:
March 10, 2017, 2:09 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
Temp is set to 70 F and yes to other 2 questions
Your tint is probably doing it then. In my case on hot days (90+), the AC never gets cold enough for the fan to slow.
namelessman commented:
March 10, 2017, 2:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Depending on the state, when you trade in a vehicle only the difference between the trade in value and the new car you're purchasing is subject to sales tax.
At times it can make trade in a better financial option than private sale.
Yes online search says IL(and TX) allows trade-in value to reduce gross proceed for sales tax calculation.
Shangri-La commented:
March 10, 2017, 3:03 pm

Read an article somewhere (Car and Driver?) that the 3 series is the most expensive car to own in its class. So not too surprised by this most resold list. It's all about the $$$.
BeemerGuy commented:
March 10, 2017, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
With the F30, I think M-sport is an absolute MUST for the following reasons.

- Sport seats.
- M-sport steering so the gauges are not obstructed.
- M sport or M adaptive suspension.
- Better brake pads. [Overlooked by most people.]

It still does not feel as nice as an E46. I have zero attachment to this car, compared to my E46 which I held on to for almost 11 years and 220K miles.
I had a 340i that did not have any of those items, and it was a bitter disappointment from day one, and I sold (traded) it within 8 months. My F06, which is of course a pig compared to the 3 series, has all of those features that I didn't get on the F30 and is a much more enjoyable ride. And of course has a much better/nicer interior.

So, yes, even enthusiasts who have owned many BMWs can be disappointed with the F30, especially if they're not properly equipped.
PK2348 commented:
March 10, 2017, 4:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Yes online search says IL(and TX) allows trade-in value to reduce gross proceed for sales tax calculation.
NY as well. From personal experience.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 10, 2017, 4:35 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shangri-La View Post
Read an article somewhere (Car and Driver?) that the 3 series is the most expensive car to own in its class. So not too surprised by this most resold list. It's all about the $$$.
This fact would be irrelevant in the case of cars being sold in the 1st year. It only becomes expensive to own after the 5 year mark and that statistic is retarded anyway since the first 4 years/50k miles everything is covered under warranty and maintenance is free, so even if it gets expensive from years 5-8, it evens out.
LMK5 commented:
March 10, 2017, 5:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
Temp is set to 70 F and yes to other 2 questions
Thanks for the reply. I have a feeling that without tint, your experience with the AC would be different. For instance, right now it is 81 and mostly cloudy here. I got into my car at lunch time and first set it to 72 on AUTO. About 5 minutes into the ride I hear the fan slow down and it starts getting hotter in the car, as usual. Long story short, after about 10 more minutes I have the temp down to 63, the magic blue/red wheel all the way to blue, and the auto intensity set to 5. For the record I am 6' and 170 lbs.

I also took a quick test drive in a new Audi A4 at lunch time. That sucker was set to 75 on AUTO and I was very comfortable for the entire test drive. Absolutely no comparison in the effectiveness of the AC between the 2 cars.

I see that you also own an Accord. Would you say the 3-series is more composed over road imperfections than the Accord? In my experience, the Accord has one of the most well-tuned suspensions of any car I've ever driven. It feels much more composed than my F30 over imperfect roads.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 10, 2017, 5:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Thanks for the reply. I have a feeling that without tint, your experience with the AC would be different. For instance, right now it is 81 and mostly cloudy here. I got into my car at lunch time and first set it to 72 on AUTO. About 5 minutes into the ride I hear the fan slow down and it starts getting hotter in the car, as usual. Long story short, after about 10 more minutes I have the temp down to 63, the magic blue/red wheel all the way to blue, and the auto intensity set to 5. For the record I am 6' and 170 lbs.

I also took a quick test drive in a new Audi A4 at lunch time. That sucker was set to 75 on AUTO and I was very comfortable for the entire test drive. Absolutely no comparison in the effectiveness of the AC between the 2 cars.

I see that you also own an Accord. Would you say the 3-series is more composed over road imperfections than the Accord? In my experience, the Accord has one of the most well-tuned suspensions of any car I've ever driven. It feels much more composed than my F30 over imperfect roads.
If you don't tint your windows you are blowing it big time. Besides the cosmetic improvement and privacy, the anti-glare and reduced interior temperature makes it a must have. Going on almost a decade with tinted windows in southern CA and never a ticket. 10 years of baking in the sweltering southern CA sunshine and getting premature skin cancer is not worth the miniscule risk of a ticket.

I never have my AC set past the 1st or maybe 2nd AC blower setting with it set to 72 all the time. Maybe when it is triple digits, a little more. Tint makes a massive difference
LMK5 commented:
March 10, 2017, 6:11 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
If you don't tint your windows you are blowing it big time. Besides the cosmetic improvement and privacy, the anti-glare and reduced interior temperature makes it a must have. Going on almost a decade with tinted windows in southern CA and never a ticket. 10 years of baking in the sweltering southern CA sunshine and getting premature skin cancer is not worth the miniscule risk of a ticket.

I never have my AC set past the 1st or maybe 2nd AC blower setting with it set to 72 all the time. Maybe when it is triple digits, a little more. Tint makes a massive difference
I agree 100%. Just irks me that I drove my 2008 CRV out to Indian Wells yesterday (90 degrees) with no AC concerns and no tint.
Kafkaesque328 commented:
March 10, 2017, 6:14 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
I agree 100%. Just irks me that I drove my 2008 CRV out to Indian Wells yesterday (90 degrees) with no AC concerns and no tint.
I have never found factory tints to be adequate, personally. But yes, the BMW totally clear windows are a complete joke
tex2670 commented:
March 10, 2017, 6:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post

Can the dealer's buying and selling of loaners a big factor in this?
This has to be a factor. With recent years' booming 3-Series sales was the confirmation that the raw sales numbers were inflated by "sales" to dealers for loaner fleets. When those loaner cars are sold, they are sold as CPOs--used--within a few months.
chiefneil commented:
March 10, 2017, 7:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Your tint is probably doing it then. In my case on hot days (90+), the AC never gets cold enough for the fan to slow.
BMW seems to experiment with their a/c, IME. Our E36 was horrible, the E46 barely tolerable, and the F30 decent but not great. Our 2002 X5 a/c was flat-out awesome, but kept having evaporator leaks. Our 2012 X5 a/c took a step back and clearly isn't as good as our previous X5, and also the evaporator is even more prone to leaking (replaced practically once per year every year under warranty).

Japanese and American cars really have the best a/c, I don't know why BMW seems to struggle with it. Full disclosure - I'm in a very extreme environment in Phoenix but I do have my windows tinted with the best available legal option (Crystalline 40) for heat rejection. The a/c is just fine for double-digit days, but struggles on triple-digit days after the car's been sitting in the sun.
like2ace commented:
March 10, 2017, 9:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Your tint is probably doing it then. In my case on hot days (90+), the AC never gets cold enough for the fan to slow.
Well, putting tint on in hot states like AZ,TX is just common sense. I have 30% ceramic tint.
Thruhiker commented:
March 10, 2017, 9:13 pm

Have enjoyed this thread, have read every post. I think that almost everyone agrees on the basic facts. BMW's are not the best value. For most folks leasing works well because of the way BMW sales are set up. Buying new is nuts unless you are planning on keeping it for along time. If you keep it the repair costs can add up. The 3's are not a luxury car or a sports car. And yet I will probably buy a new one in the next week. What the heck am I thinking! Well, I have been shopping for 3 years. I am older (think Medicare) but still enjoy a nice handling and driving car. I like quite a few things about the 3's. Style, can't stand the giant grills and general styling of most new cars. Exterior vision out, can't stand the chopped look with high waistline, short glass. Enough space for 4, mostly just me driving. Will fit in my garage. Can order the durn thing without getting a lot of extra crap I don't need or want. Wagon set up with sensatec, metallic, heated seats and track handling for under 45K, heck, have you priced out a pickup truck recently! Replacing a 15 year old Suburu because it rusted & will not pass inspection. Honda Van is 12 1/2 years, will keep it another 5. Wife's 2007 328xI, I'll get killed if I suggest getting rid of her baby. And repair costs on the BMW have actually been less than expected (115K miles). Sorry to post so long but I just feel that value is different things to different people. I understand why folks lease, I think a good part of the reason for the return rate is BMW pushing more lease than many can afford. Can't blame them, they want to move the metal.
anselansel commented:
March 10, 2017, 11:25 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ace View Post
Well, putting tint on in hot states like AZ,TX is just common sense. I have 30% ceramic tint.
me too. I walk up to my car hit the fob lower the windows and let the hot air out. Hit max ac and am cool and comfy in no time. very satisfied. Now if i didnt have great tint like we have, not sure. In super hot climates, excellent tint is a must...
namelessman commented:
March 11, 2017, 2:47 am

This 2018 Camry looks like a F10, no? It looks like Japanese economy brands are taking strides to compete with German marques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyW6mIXlEL4
Michael Schott commented:
March 11, 2017, 7:30 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This 2018 Camry looks like a F10, no? It looks like Japanese economy brands are taking strides to compete with German marques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyW6mIXlEL4
Sorry. I see no resemblance to any BMW. This Camry is ugly and I can't imagine it will be any fun to drive.
tex2670 commented:
March 11, 2017, 10:14 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Sorry. I see no resemblance to any BMW. This Camry is ugly and I can't imagine it will be any fun to drive.

Maybe it looks like a Maxima. Not a BMW.


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John MS commented:
March 11, 2017, 11:44 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
selling 3s

On the average, new car owners hang on to their cars is 6.5 years. However, some German favorites are being sold much quicker. The F10 forum has a similar thread, it looks like the top 3 most resold cars are 3-series, 5-series, and C-class.



Can the dealer's buying and selling of loaners a big factor in this? Or 3-series is really that regrettable to own?

The article says 8% of 3-series sold changes hands in first year, it is not clear if those are just purchases/finances, or it includes lease transfers as well.

Read the full article from Forbes here!
That article focuses on 2015 to 2017 models. However a similar article showing the top seven models with high resales in 2014 did not indicate BMW had an unusually high first year owner turnover. If that's the case then there is something wonky with either the study methodology or the data. I would be more concerned if sellers were unable to find buyers.

http://blog.iseecars.com/2015/06/01/...to-get-rid-of/
Adnan35 commented:
March 11, 2017, 2:36 pm

Not every car is going to be perfect, sure my friends Lexus is250 f sport is way more comfy than my 335, or my other friends Benzs interior looks better and has navi, and my girlfriends Ford Focus has back up cameras and my BMW doesnt. But I sure as hell don't regret getting my 335 m sport one bit. I am only 20 years old and this is my first BMW so i don't really know how the previous BMWs handled, how the steering was, etc... but I wouldn't trade my car in or sell it for another 5 year at least. The joy I have driving this car is priceless. I could see people getting base 320s and having many regrets after, but I don't have one. - a BMW fanboy


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namelessman commented:
March 11, 2017, 10:44 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Sorry. I see no resemblance to any BMW. This Camry is ugly and I can't imagine it will be any fun to drive.
The side profiles@3:29 have euro flares, no?

BTW, a shoutout to Bernie for the pro edits of post#1.
lookatit commented:
April 9, 2017, 1:01 pm

Hi everyone,
I think most of those are purchases , look at the http://www.autozin.com/for-sale/bmw-325 there are so many of them coming every day and i dont think it includes any leases
eazy commented:
April 9, 2017, 4:05 pm

how does a BMW dealer record a service loaner? Below is a pic on how an Audi dealer records a service loaner.


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mr_clueless commented:
April 9, 2017, 4:09 pm

^ Didn't know the Q7 was built in Slovakia, the engine coming from Hungary!
LarryboysUDM commented:
April 9, 2017, 4:57 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
With the F30, I think M-sport is an absolute MUST for the following reasons.

- Sport seats.
- M-sport steering so the gauges are not obstructed.
- M sport or M adaptive suspension.
- Better brake pads. [Overlooked by most people.]

It still does not feel as nice as an E46. I have zero attachment to this car, compared to my E46 which I held on to for almost 11 years and 220K miles.
Yes but the braking power in my 335i is just fine; I would add Xenon lighting package.
gkr778 commented:
April 9, 2017, 6:07 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
^ Didn't know the Q7 was built in Slovakia, the engine coming from Hungary!
Yup, Q7 is assembled at the VW SK Plant in Bratislava along with VW Touraeg. The Porsche Cayenne and Bentley Bentayga are both partially built in Bratislava prior to final assembly in Germany and the UK, respectively.

The engine plant is located in Gyor, and is one of VW Group's largest engine manufacturing facilities with nearly 2 million produced last year (representing about 90% of all Audi engine production).
mr_clueless commented:
April 10, 2017, 12:15 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
I have never found factory tints to be adequate, personally. But yes, the BMW totally clear windows are a complete joke
Being clear actually doesn't mean anything. The window can have coatings for IR (which reduces heat) and UV (which reduces burn). But BMW doesn't do that.

BTW, do you get the windshield tinted as well?

I am definitely getting a clear tint before this summer to reduce IR and UV. Most likely this one:
http://www.solargard.com/product/ult...formance-plus/
Germanpanzer commented:
April 10, 2017, 2:02 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
All ten cars in iSeeCars.com's top ten "regrettable rides", as listed in that Forbes article, had areas of concern in Consumer Reports' latest owner satisfaction survey (February 2017 issue):

10.) Subaru Impreza WRX: lowest possible rating for comfort
9.) Chrysler 200: Below average rating overall; lowest overall satisfaction in midsize sedans category
8.) Mercedes-Benz E-Class: below average rating for value
7.) BMW 4-Series: lowest possible rating for value; lowest overall satisfaction in coupes & convertibles category
6.) BMW X3: lowest possible rating for value
5.) Dodge Dart: lowest possible rating for comfort and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in compact cars category
4.) Nissan Versa Note: lowest possible rating for driving experience, comfort, and overall satisfaction; lowest overall satisfaction in subcompact cars category
3.) Mercedes-Benz C-Class: below average rating for value
2.) BMW 5-Series: lowest possible rating for value
1.) BMW 3-Series: lowest possible rating for value

So to me it's not surprising these particular car models ended up on iSeeCars.com's list.
I didn't see model specifics ? 320i or M4 GTS? if you buy the entry level car like a 2 series .... how can they subjectively put the high spec cars in the same batch.

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gkr778 commented:
April 10, 2017, 3:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanpanzer View Post
I didn't see model specifics ? 320i or M4 GTS? if you buy the entry level car like a 2 series .... how can they subjectively put the high spec cars in the same batch.
I think both iseecars.com and Consumer Reports analyzed the entire lineups of automotive nameplates/models, not specific variants such as 320i, M4 GTS, etc.
namelessman commented:
April 10, 2017, 3:36 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanpanzer View Post
I didn't see model specifics ? 320i or M4 GTS? if you buy the entry level car like a 2 series .... how can they subjectively put the high spec cars in the same batch.
My interpretation of the table is only the F30 3-series is listed out, while the F80/F82 M3 and M4 are not listed.
cracked1 commented:
April 12, 2017, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
selling 3s

On the average, new car owners hang on to their cars is 6.5 years. However, some German favorites are being sold much quicker. The F10 forum has a similar thread, it looks like the top 3 most resold cars are 3-series, 5-series, and C-class.



Can the dealer's buying and selling of loaners a big factor in this? Or 3-series is really that regrettable to own?

The article says 8% of 3-series sold changes hands in first year, it is not clear if those are just purchases/finances, or it includes lease transfers as well.

Read the full article from Forbes here!


Gee, considering I got rid of two brand new ones, each within a year, I can't say I find this hard to believe...
namelessman commented:
April 12, 2017, 1:37 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cracked1 View Post


Gee, considering I got rid of two brand new ones, each within a year, I can't say I find this hard to believe...
Those do qualify to contribute to the stats.
iamthewalrus commented:
April 12, 2017, 1:52 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILD_757 View Post
People are probably buying them as a status symbol and then realizing the payments are not worth it.
That's my guess as well. People stretch to get into these cars and then realize it doesn't make any sense. I've hard great success buying CPO used BMWs with ~10K miles on them and then holding them indefinitely.
The one new BMW I bought I sold in 14 months. It was a 2006 BMW 330Cic (manual, sport package, H/K stereo, xenons, etc.) and it was *gorgeous*. I loved that car, but it totally the wrong move for me. I spend a lot of my weekends hiking and skiing, and a rear-wheel-drive car with no ground clearance was silly. I let my heart get away from my head. I sold it for a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i also manual, sport package, etc.
The 330Cic was $46K new and when I traded it for the X3 (MSRP of ~$45K) they wrote me a check for $2K. They each had 9K miles on them almost exactly -- within 10 miles.
I kept the X3 for 10 years and just loved it. I just recently traded it for a loaded 2014 BMW X1 xDrive35i with 11K miles on the odometer. It was $31K before the trade in. At the price of a mid-spec VW GTI, BMWs make a lot more sense and there's much lower risk of buyer's remorse.

-James
Seattle, WA
rikwynn commented:
April 16, 2017, 11:07 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
selling 3s

On the average, new car owners hang on to their cars is 6.5 years. However, some German favorites are being sold much quicker. The F10 forum has a similar thread, it looks like the top 3 most resold cars are 3-series, 5-series, and C-class.



Can the dealer's buying and selling of loaners a big factor in this? Or 3-series is really that regrettable to own?

The article says 8% of 3-series sold changes hands in first year, it is not clear if those are just purchases/finances, or it includes lease transfers as well.

Read the full article from Forbes here!


I turned in my F10 in 9 mos before lease end. Hated the car. Way Too heavy and handled like a Buick even with M Sport. My favorite part of how BMW got that car completely wrong was the paddle shifters. Paddle shifters on an overweight overpriced Buick. Laughable.


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LarryboysUDM commented:
April 16, 2017, 6:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILD_757 View Post
People are probably buying them as a status symbol and then realizing the payments are not worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
All ten cars in iSeeCars.com's top ten "regrettable rides", as listed in that Forbes article, had areas of concern in Consumer Reports' latest owner satisfaction survey (February 2017 issue):

1.) BMW 3-Series: lowest possible rating for value

So to me it's not surprising these particular car models ended up on iSeeCars.com's list.
For a long time I wanted to experience owning a BMW and in 2012 I bought my F30 335i. I did not see it as a status symbol but to experience the ultimate driving machine. I think what people are missing is getting the BMW with the right specs; in my case I wanted at least the N55 engine, M-sport package, and DHP. I wanted to get the manual too but I did not want to aggravate my wife's plantar fasciitis so I got the Sport Auto (awesome tranny btw). The driving experience, features, comfort, size, look, never left us stranded and overall satisfaction makes it worth it. I am rolling the dice owning w/o warranty and the dealer just replaced the fuel pump for free so that's one less thing. My 2 year maintenance package is going to run through 2018 for a total ownership of 6 years. We'll see how it goes from there but so far so good.
Michael Schott commented:
April 16, 2017, 6:51 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
For a long time I wanted to experience owning a BMW and in 2012 I bought my F30 335i. I did not see it as a status symbol but to experience the ultimate driving machine. I think what people are missing is getting the BMW with the right specs; in my case I wanted at least the N55 engine, M-sport package, and DHP. I wanted to get the manual too but I did not want to aggravate my wife's plantar fasciitis so I got the Sport Auto (awesome tranny btw). The driving experience, features, comfort, size, look, never left us stranded and overall satisfaction makes it worth it. I am rolling the dice owning w/o warranty and the dealer just replaced the fuel pump for free so that's one less thing. My 2 year maintenance package is going to run through 2018 for a total ownership of 6 years. We'll see how it goes from there but so far so good.
A lot of enthusiasts on this forum did equip their cars as you did. Many have RWD Sport Line or MSport packages. In my case it was a RWD 328i Sport Line. It was good for an N20 but lacked the more precise handling and more importantly the steering. It was disappointing for a driver's car.
namelessman commented:
April 16, 2017, 7:12 pm

My coworker did swap in the MPSK and the car handles better 704/standard, but the increased size of F30 compared to E46(e.g.) still means MPSK is not go-cart precision of previous 3-series.
LarryboysUDM commented:
April 17, 2017, 1:25 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
A lot of enthusiasts on this forum did equip their cars as you did. Many have RWD Sport Line or MSport packages. In my case it was a RWD 328i Sport Line. It was good for an N20 but lacked the more precise handling and more importantly the steering. It was disappointing for a driver's car.
If it's disappointing for a driver's car, enthusiasts should be figuring that out right off the bat during the test drive and forego the lease/sale. I am no BMW expert since this is my first; during my research I've known about the electric steering and to stay away from the base models but get Sport package with DHP. Even then they said the steering won't be the same as the hydraulic version. I know what I got into and the DHP chassis and drivetrain Sport mode steering is fine to me.
mr_clueless commented:
April 17, 2017, 1:48 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
If it's disappointing for a driver's car, enthusiasts should be figuring that out right off the bat during the test drive and forego the lease/sale.
It's not always easy to see the flaws on the first date.
beware_phog commented:
April 17, 2017, 6:22 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanpanzer View Post
I didn't see model specifics ? 320i or M4 GTS? if you buy the entry level car like a 2 series .... how can they subjectively put the high spec cars in the same batch.

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Just think of how many people purposely drove their 320 into a tree instead of selling it. The 3 series numbers would even be higher.
mr_clueless commented:
April 17, 2017, 6:24 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beware_phog View Post
Just think of how many people purposely drove their 320 into a tree instead of selling it. The 3 series numbers would even be higher.
haha...that would be financially worse than getting rid of the car by selling it because of the hike in insurance. and it would in turn increase the insurance premiums for all of us!
gkr778 commented:
April 17, 2017, 8:58 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beware_phog View Post
Just think of how many people purposely drove their 320 into a tree instead of selling it. The 3 series numbers would even be higher.
Good point. Add the people who drove their F8x M3/M4 into a tree, and things really start to look bleak for F3x/F8x cars.

mr_clueless commented:
April 17, 2017, 9:43 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Good point. Add the people who drove their F8x M3/M4 into a tree, and things really start to look bleak for F3x/F8x cars.
looks nasty. did the driver survive this one?
gkr778 commented:
April 17, 2017, 11:06 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
looks nasty. did the driver survive this one?
He did. According to a news report from tz.de, the 20 year old driver of that M4 only sustained minor injuries from the crash.
Arcane.Host commented:
April 18, 2017, 6:26 am

I don't believe cost of maintenance would be a factor since it's covered by BMW for initial 4 years. It's probably due to ride that doesn't meet the buyer's expectations or remorse for not initially leasing/buying the car they really wanted or the high payment (lease or finance) in their opinion.

On another note, I don't think the source of the Forbes' article is reputable. They are a car internet search company that is vying for internet traffic and leveraging their connection with the article's author on Forbes.

Bottom line, the article and its source is BS.


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openwheelracing commented:
April 18, 2017, 10:19 am

Got rid of my last F30 in less than a year.

I've kept the 2nd one for a year and half only because 320i ZSP ZLP barely costs anything. Not much longer LOL.