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-   -   "BMW acknowledges it is no longer Ultimate Driving Machine" (https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=976282)

namelessman 04-27-2017 01:55 PM

"BMW acknowledges it is no longer Ultimate Driving Machine"
 
bmw is no longer the ultimate dirving machine

This is a fascinating article. The Mod can decide to move/delete if needed(is it duplicated from other existing thread?), but it would seem to be an interesting subject for the lively F30 audience. :)

Quote:

As vehicle sales growth gradually cools off, BMW has found itself continuing to lose ground to its competitors - but it wasn't always this way. The company spent years as the luxury brand par excellence before seeing the likes of Jaguar, Tesla, and historic rival Mercedes-Benz begin syphoning off its consumer base.
Quote:

"BMW has lost its leadership in innovation," explained Juergen Pieper, an analyst at Bankhaus Metzler in Frankfurt. "It's not brave enough to get into pioneering projects and do something really new."
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...are-employees/

EDIT: Shoutout to Tim for the pro edits! :thumbup:

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 02:06 PM

There's no reason to delete this but I will give my thoughts on the article.

1) The title of the article is sensationalist and doesn't jibe with what BMW is doing with the employees.

2) The article is heavily slanted and again sensationalist. All BMW is doing is getting input from their employees about future technologies. Further, it talks about being in the midst of an electric assault. That is old news and BMW themselves has been heavily invested in electric technology for a number of years. The editorial premise of the article is a false narrative.

jjrandorin 04-27-2017 02:08 PM

The thread title is clickbait.

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjrandorin (Post 10134780)
The thread title is clickbait.

Agree. It's up to the OP to change it if he likes but it's not fair or honest IMO.

namelessman 04-27-2017 03:28 PM

The thread title works just fine. :)

tturedraider 04-27-2017 03:40 PM

BMWAG has never used the tag line "The Ultimate Driving Machine". That has been BMWNA's tag line. Not surprisingly it was an American who thought it up; Bob Lutz of GM, during the early 70s when he worked for BMW. BMWAG's tag line has been "Sheer Driving Pleasure" for decades.

VCuomo 04-27-2017 03:47 PM

Where in the article did BMW actually "acknowledge" that it is no longer the "ultimate driving machine"? I don't now, and never have, believed this to be anything other than a clever marketing slogan, but I didn't see where BMW has acknowledged much of anything...

namelessman 04-27-2017 04:04 PM

The referenced Bloomberg article is an interesting read too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-to-electrics

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namelessman (Post 10134931)
The referenced Bloomberg article is an interesting read too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-to-electrics

That is a much more balanced and coherent article. However if the stockholders are right and BMW does what's best to compete in the future, driving dynamics are not part of the equation. To be fair, the picture drawn in that article applies to all luxury car companies and paints a grim future for the enthusiast.

I guess millennials favor tech over driving pleasure. The trend is towards autonomous cars and safety features like lane assist.

misterjim 04-27-2017 05:17 PM

It's too bad BMW didn't come out with an electric with "BMW driving dynamics" and a sexy, sporty exterior. Instead they introduced the i3 - a horrible looking mediocre performing electric.

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misterjim (Post 10135035)
It's too bad BMW didn't come out with an electric with "BMW driving dynamics" and a sexy, sporty exterior. Instead they introduced the i3 - a horrible looking mediocre performing electric.

The i3 was designed as a city car not a 3 series type car.

tturedraider 04-27-2017 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott (Post 10134967)
That is a much more balanced and coherent article. However if the stockholders are right and BMW does what's best to compete in the future, driving dynamics are not part of the equation. To be fair, the picture drawn in that article applies to all luxury car companies and paints a grim future for the enthusiast.

I guess millennials favor tech over driving pleasure. The trend is towards autonomous cars and safety features like lane assist.

Is there anything good that millennials favor? ;) Man, I'm getting older and more crotchety by the minute. :)

crabu2 04-27-2017 06:30 PM

Personally, I just wish BMW would build their cars to be more reliable like the old NA I6 motors. All this talk I always see about motors popping isn't good.

As for tech, yes they need more of it.. and not just in the 5 and up.. When a $20K car can have collision avoidance that works with blindside detection and what not, why doesn't all BMWs have these features? Sure Park Assist is nice, but I'd much rather have a Driver Assist + that stops the vehicle versus prime the brakes. Oh.. and Dynamic Cruise Control... what's that? Why not just put in Adaptive cruise like Toyota, Subaru and all the other non-luxury brands seem to be doing?

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135129)
Personally, I just wish BMW would build their cars to be more reliable like the old NA I6 motors. All this talk I always see about motors popping isn't good.

As for tech, yes they need more of it.. and not just in the 5 and up.. When a $20K car can have collision avoidance that works with blindside detection and what not, why doesn't all BMWs have these features? Sure Park Assist is nice, but I'd much rather have a Driver Assist + that stops the vehicle versus prime the brakes. Oh.. and Dynamic Cruise Control... what's that? Why not just put in Adaptive cruise like Toyota, Subaru and all the other non-luxury brands seem to be doing?

Please don't get sucked into talk here that the motors are unreliable. It's all BS with no science behind it. It's basically 2 posters with some sort of agenda.

bear-avhistory 04-27-2017 07:10 PM

"Ultimate" is a very tough word to live up to. That said BMW still builds cars that do most things very well if you check off the right boxes on the order forum. You are not going to find them on the dealer lot because most people really don't care about them & dealers are in business to sell cars.

Personally for my grown-up car I like quick performance that handles well but is still a comfortable ride. M-Sport, Track package & MPPK/MPE cover those requirements nicely.

Not a big fan of the over abundance of nannies in modern cars & like the fact that many are still items to be ordered that I can leave off the order sheet. My pure performance fun car is a 100% nanny free zone. Primitive, brutal, fast, loud & the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

Agree on broken engines. Been on this site for about 10 years & almost zero talk of blown engines. Same holds true on the tuner sites

crabu2 04-27-2017 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott (Post 10135157)
Please don't get sucked into talk here that the motors are unreliable. It's all BS with no science behind it. It's basically 2 posters with some sort of agenda.

You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?

namelessman 04-27-2017 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135129)
Personally, I just wish BMW would build their cars to be more reliable like the old NA I6 motors. All this talk I always see about motors popping isn't good.

The engine tech is supposed to be BMW's bread and butter, and in fact there is not much in-house(BMW's own) R&D so engine tech should really be bullet proof, on any BMW engine. The fact that there are issues with some engines, e.g. N13, N47, and now N20(all timing chain related), is somewhat disappointing, especially for long term owners like myself and others.

Having said that, BMW engine tech also is supposed to push the limits, hence it is not too surprising that the corners of the engine specs probably are not stretched(figuratively) to get things fully flushed.

In the N20 case, in the absence of any official fix/acknowledgement, the strategy of long term owners is to mitigate the risks(e.g. shortened OCI and such), and keep an eye, and ear, on the issue. There is another thread on the N20 issue, with video links of engine sounds, and how the timing chain job can look like.

namelessman 04-27-2017 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135176)
You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?

What is really disappointing is that something like timing chain is a known possible point of failure. The science behind sturdy timing chain and durable chain guides(plastic or otherwise) is well known, given BMW has been using similar setups for many generations of engines, why is it difficult to make timing chain right in the first try, and last 200k-300k miles for early N20/N26? :dunno:

My fear is that BMW forgets/ignores durable and reliable engine design, because their customers mostly lease BMW's and do not need to worry about reliability, availability, and serviceability past 50k to 65k ....

Michael Schott 04-27-2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135176)
You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?

BMW is far from alone in having carbon deposits due to DI. It was fairly new tech at the time. As far as reliability, they are reliable. People come to the internet to complain about issues. It's anecdotal, not statistically significant.

No doubt BMW's are expensive to maintain out of warranty. So are Audi's, MB's, Jags and the like. It's always been that way except cars are more complicated now.

RockyM 04-28-2017 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135176)
You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?

Direct injection and turbo charging are MUCH more prevalent in the industry then in the past, to meet environment regs. Issues related to this technology run across manufacturers and not a "BMW problem". Walnut shell blasting also is not a "BMW fix". It is an industry fix to clean carbon deposits. Why did you order a BMW if you are so scared of them, and frankly ill-informed. :dunno: Ask VW about timing chain issues and water pumps. Ask Subaru about ringland failures. Etc. All manufacturers have their issues. People come to the internets to complain and blow these things up.

crabu2 04-28-2017 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyM (Post 10135553)
Direct injection and turbo charging are MUCH more prevalent in the industry then in the past, to meet environment regs. Issues related to this technology run across manufacturers and not a "BMW problem". Walnut shell blasting also is not a "BMW fix". It is an industry fix to clean carbon deposits. Why did you order a BMW if you are so scared of them, and frankly ill-informed. :dunno: Ask VW about timing chain issues and water pumps. Ask Subaru about ringland failures. Etc. All manufacturers have their issues. People come to the internets to complain and blow these things up.

I don't know who started walnut shelling, but I've only ever heard of it being done by BMW as part of maintenance. I haven't recently heard of any BMW owners needing shelling with the newer cars, so they must have come up with real fix. And if they haven't come up with a fix, they're in real trouble because selling leases only work for so long... when the used market gets flooded with cars. I remember when Lexus had the carbon issue, they came up with adding an extra injector to wash the valves. GM.. I remember how all the news articles I saw were stating how they got it right from the get go.. Don't ever hearing about carbon buildup problems with anyone else. I'm just happy I don't hear about carbon issues with BMW any longer.

As for being scared about BMW, most things don't scare me except this timing chain. I ordered my car on a whim because I needed a new car. But unlike I normally do, I just stopped at a few dealerships to see what's available.. and picked from there. I knew I wanted a Vert ... A Mustang GT convertible to be more exact, but when you drive over 100 miles a day, MPG matters. 23 hwy ain't gonna cut it and with a Mustang, I can't do anything smaller than a V8 because that's what I had in the past. I knew I didn't want FWD or a FWD bias AWD car, so that left BMW. It had the important features I wanted like 33mpg hwy MPG, was a quick and fun to drive car. And being that the 228i had been out for a few years, I figured the bugs had been worked out...

Then I stumbled on a post about the timing chain on the N20... that post had links to other posts and articles.. even Youtube videos. I figured it was fixed with the revised chain on engines built as of 2015. But the 230 I ordered came with a different motor.. I'm hoping BMW learned their lesson and has it right on the B46. Still because of past issues I've heard of... it's scary... I'm like why did BMW put the chain in the back of the engine? Are they confident it's not going to be an issue or are their engineers just crazy?

I feel like I'm taking a gamble.. Especially since when I told my dad I was getting a BMW.. he, who is not a car guy at all, said I was making a major mistake because his friends no longer drive them because of past problems and they were a money pit.

Needing a new car that fits my needs, I've got my fingers crossed I'm not making a 50K mistake with BMW because they're building a car that has the features that are important to me..

BTW, yesterday I told a friend what I had ordered... she says you'll love it, but she had to get rid of her 330ci because it was in the shop all the time... That's not confidence inspiring.... I have no idea what kind of problems she had since most women I know take their cars in for most anything... Me, I do all my maintenance myself so I know it gets done and done right... Even my tires because I don't trust the grease monkeys .... you know they tend to not use torque wrenches on the nuts and what not... Most times, they can't even balance a tire on the 1st try.

Mark K 04-28-2017 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135669)
I haven't recently heard of any BMW owners needing shelling with the newer cars, so they must have come up with real fix.

Maybe. *35 cars still had N55 exactly as my E92 and they will need walnut blast. Not nowhere near as frequent as with N54, but they WILL need it. Or not, most people will not even realize the engine doesn't feel right.

Quote:

I feel like I'm taking a gamble.. Especially since when I told my dad I was getting a BMW.. he, who is not a car guy at all, said I was making a major mistake because his friends no longer drive them because of past problems and they were a money pit.
You are ALWAYS taking a gamble. You think a $50k Toyota will/would make you sleep better?

Don't sweat it, you are seriously risking to ruin a new car experience by digging that hole deeper and deeper every day that passes. You will have 4 years and 50,000 miles to sort out whether the car is the keeper or not. All on BMWs dime and with a loaner car being given to you.

Good luck and enjoy your new car when it comes here!

gkr778 04-28-2017 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabu2 (Post 10135669)
I don't know who started walnut shelling

The use of walnut shell media for blasting, cleaning, coating removal, etc., was invented by a company in Connecticut, Composition Materials Co., Inc., in the 1960s.

The original application of walnut shell blasting was removing the top coating on U.S. Navy submarines and aircraft carriers without damaging or having to remove the undercoat and vinyl coat in the process. Prior to the introduction of walnut shell blasting, it was necessary to strip down the coatings down to bare metal.

namelessman 04-28-2017 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCuomo (Post 10134911)
Where in the article did BMW actually "acknowledge" that it is no longer the "ultimate driving machine"? I don't now, and never have, believed this to be anything other than a clever marketing slogan, but I didn't see where BMW has acknowledged much of anything...

The article title(which is quoted in the thread title) appears to be the author's extrapolation of the original Bloomberg article. Excerpts from bloomberg piece:

""We're in the midst of an electric assault," the presenter intones as the Tesla Inc. chief's photo pops up. "This must be taken very seriously.""

""It's easy to fall into a closed way of thinking," says Jutta Schwerdtle, a session leader who works in market research. "This helps push people out of that.""

From these statements it appears some BMW staff acknowledged that they were seriously behind competitors. Although that is not a direct acknowledgement of not living up to "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline, it does seem to imply the UDM tagline is no longer relevant.

Kafkaesque328 04-28-2017 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott (Post 10135157)
Please don't get sucked into talk here that the motors are unreliable. It's all BS with no science behind it. It's basically 2 posters with some sort of agenda.

This, exactly. People are so impressionable. "I read it on the internet. Some guy on the internet said this so..."

Please, people, its time for a reality check.

As to the thread title, give me a break.


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