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-   -   DPF "needs replaced"... for $5,900... at 65k miles (https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1285138)

disillusioned 07-29-2018 11:48 PM

DPF "needs replaced"... for $5,900... at 65k miles
 
Hi all! I've been digging into various DPF threads here, and collecting from the mash of info, and just wanted to see if I'm missing anything before going into the weeds here.

My wife's car (which was recently driven over 100 miles at constant highway speed) has thrown a number of diesel/emissions system errors while it was still during mfg warranty and then CPO warranty, usually related to the DEF system, but I don't have the paperwork in front of me. This includes one final time a month before the CPO warranty ended, in which I made them swear up and down that the emissions system wasn't going to come back to bite me.

Imagine my surprise when my wife gets an "incorrect exhaust fluid" error... on a car we've never (personally) touched the exhaust fluid on. (We've always had the dealer do oil changes, including the most recent one in April.)

The dealer tells me they're having some trouble diagnosing, then gets back to me and explains that it appears to be a "bad diesel particulate filter" and that it will need to be replaced, for $5,900. I tell him to sharpen his pencil and figure out a way to make that number NOT that number, because I was assured that we had gotten all the emissions issues out of the woodwork.

I'm waiting to hear back on that, but obviously I'm expecting them to tell me to go pound sand. This dealership, as a general rule, gives zero ****s. (The only reason I took it here was because of the trail of previous DEF issues, and seeing if I could lever that into a goodwill fix from them.)

The specific notes on the estimate state "found DPF clogged, performed regen, still clogged", but the advisor had made it sound like a) they weren't able to get it to perform the regen, and b) they're sure it's not the NOX or thermostat... which sounds like bull**** to me.

My questions:

1) I feel like replacing the DPF should be the very very last action we take, right?
2) Why would a "clogged" DPF throw a "wrong exhaust fluid" message instead of what appears to be the typical case of something specific to the DPF or limp-home mode?
3) I had a local shop quote me $1,500 to clean the DPF... should I start with a cleaning fluid first? Or trying to trigger a regen myself from Carly?
4) It sounds like I need to truly diagnose that the NOX and thermos aren't actually bad... the dealer maintains that they don't think they are, but I have no idea how they tested them, or if they really did.
5) Can I clear or reset the 200 mile warning with Carly or something similar? At least while I figure out a plan of action?

My plan of action:
1) Get the dealer to give me the error codes they're seeing, and the telemetry on backpressures and ash levels on the DPF, as well as last regen times
2) Get the dealer to confirm as best they can that NOX sensors and thermo are still good. Push for a NOX sensor fix anyway, since that's now under extended LW
3) See if they can clear the code/extend the time for now, while I figure things out
4) If they won't fix, try Carly manual regen, Carly manual exhaust temp diagnosis
5) If that doesn't work... try a DPF cleaner fluid?
6) If all that fails, have the local shop do the actual cleaning?
7) Curse myself for not living in California, since DPF is covered by a separate extended warranty there for 7 years

Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated, or if I'm missing something obvious, or any other questions to push on the dealer.

Thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/fQq42bZ.png

edycol 07-30-2018 12:30 AM

Do you have readings of coolant temperature?
At 65K DPF could be clogged if thermostat was bad and car is driven mostly in the city. BMW's generally as any Euro cars like heavy foot and long runs. Passive regeneration that occurs in such conditions is calculated in longevity of DPF.
As for wrong DEF it is probably NOx sensor or metering valve and after SCR act NOx sensor is reporting that there is more NOx then what there should be considering amount of DEF that it suppose to be injected.
I would say, find another dealer to check. Also, I am not sure you can clear that with Carly.

basilray 07-30-2018 12:48 AM

I'd be curious to see what your ash Mass reads. While that number is see least partially based on calculated value, it can be reset to zero if you run the dpf replacement in ISTA.

Really need the BMW codes to guess further advice.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Doug Huffman 07-30-2018 04:16 AM

Get a second opinion.

smassey321 07-30-2018 04:53 AM

Do you have a coding cable? If so I recently found a faster download of ISTA+. The link is a few paragraphs down in this thread. https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1227470

ISTA+ is a must for any diesel owner. You can scan for codes and click on them show potential tests of the component. Service manual information is also available and components can be monitored.

Others have gone through what you are in right now. Most of the time the issue is not related to the DPF. Especially at less than 100k miles.

Doug Huffman 07-30-2018 05:16 AM

There have been no credible reports of a successful BMW DPF cleaning in the US.

OTR tractor DPF are intended and designed to be frequently removed and cleaned, not so the BMW. The soot and ash mass are of fully reduced chemically inactive stuff impervious to solvent solutions. The only cleaning that might be effective is further reduction at high temperature with further physical removal by heated air pressure blast and mechanical agitation.

TroubledGnome 07-30-2018 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Huffman (Post 12655330)
There have been no credible reports of a successful BMW DPF cleaning in the US.

OTR tractor DPF are intended and designed to be frequently removed and cleaned, not so the BMW. The soot and ash mass are of fully reduced chemically inactive stuff impervious to solvent solutions. The only cleaning that might be effective is further reduction at high temperature with further physical removal by heated air pressure blast and mechanical agitation.


Has there been creditable attempts?

There is a lot of talk about it, but I don't recall anyone on this list ever trying to get one cleaned.

Doug Huffman 07-30-2018 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroubledGnome (Post 12655398)
Has there been creditable attempts?

1. Credible or believable.

2. That brings credit or honour; respectable.

3. That can be assigned; assignable.

Usage notes: Some authorities regard the usage of creditable in sense 1 (credible, believable) as an error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroubledGnome (Post 12655398)
There is a lot of talk about it, but I don't recall anyone on this list ever trying to get one cleaned.

Austrailians here have.

sunny_j 07-30-2018 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug huffman (Post 12655330)
there have been no credible reports of a successful bmw dpf cleaning in the us.

otr tractor dpf are intended and designed to be frequently removed and cleaned, not so the bmw. The soot and ash mass are of fully reduced chemically inactive stuff impervious to solvent solutions. The only cleaning that might be effective is further reduction at high temperature with further physical removal by heated air pressure blast and mechanical agitation.

+1

Michael47 07-30-2018 04:00 PM

There have been numerous reports of DPFs resisting regeneration if they get too full, and requiring a manual forced regeneration. For the DPF to have filled up completely to the point where regeneration was impossible within only 65,000 miles suggests some major bad juju going on there. In addition, isn't there a Federal law requiring emissions stuff to warrantied up to 70 or 80 thousand miles or so? Or am I mistaken?

ard 07-30-2018 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny_j (Post 12655918)
I will sell you the DPF from my X5d. It had 65k miles on it and about 30 grams of ash. PM me

Sweet.


Heck, I should buy it and shelve it.....I'll look like a genius in 50k miles or so!

:angel:

disillusioned 08-04-2018 03:38 AM

An update! First, thanks all for your help and opinions!

The dealer rep got back to me and told me "BMW will take on some of the cost of the part, but you'll have to take on most of the labor, so $2,400 total." I thanked him for reducing the price, but insisted that they need to identify the root cause of the problem. Merely replacing a filter that's clogged doesn't fix the reason it clogged. I asked him to ensure that they had tested the thermostat, the NOX sensors, etc. He said he'd get his shop foreman on the job.

A few days later, he calls me back. Explains that they did the SCR warranty repair, and then were able to do the NOX warranty repair, and do a few forced regenerations and they finally took, and finally cleared the damn filter. Total cost: $0.

I'm equal parts annoyed and relieved. Annoyed because the natural inclination for my local dealership is to throw customer money at parts instead of performing any real due diligence or troubleshooting. I get it, they make more money that way than with a few warranty repairs of lower value. But damn.

Looking like all is well now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael47 (Post 12656416)
There have been numerous reports of DPFs resisting regeneration if they get too full, and requiring a manual forced regeneration. For the DPF to have filled up completely to the point where regeneration was impossible within only 65,000 miles suggests some major bad juju going on there. In addition, isn't there a Federal law requiring emissions stuff to warrantied up to 70 or 80 thousand miles or so? Or am I mistaken?

The federal warranty does not cover the DPF. California emissions law requires BMW to offer a different warranty for the DPF for California-registered vehicles, which was 7 years, I believe.

Michael47 08-04-2018 04:53 AM

$0 beats hell out of $5900!!! And you got an education for free in learning this dealers propensity to solve problems by throwing parts at it. Next repair, and one day there will be one, you now know to push back and make them fix it rather than merely throw parts (and your money).

sunny_j 08-04-2018 06:51 AM

Have you checked for yourself to see what temp the thermostat gets to now?

ard 08-04-2018 07:53 AM

You should know (and we have had multiple posting of the actually BMW internal document) that the BMW goodwill program usually involves a binary "0% or 100%" decision by BNWNA- with a carve out in which the DEALER gets to decide how much the owner pays in that range.

The key is that BMWNA will cover 100% but at warranty rates and with no part profits. The BMW Goodwill policy allows the dealer to charge you any dollar amount whatsoever - let's say a part is 350 retail, 200 cost- and warranty book time is 2 hrs at 70 if BMW pays, 4 hrs at 120 if you pay (dealers are allowed to quote whatever hours they want). BMW covers 100% of 200+140=340. You price is 350+480=830 At 50% BMW pays them 170, you pay 415. Do the math of dealer profits on the repair... A shocking policy, but we have see it in writing over the years.


I can't help but think BMWNA was at 100% from the get go for yours.

Well played.

dzlbimmer 08-04-2018 09:11 AM

Definitely a good car for aware owners with a support group. Nice work

toledo_335i_6 08-04-2018 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disillusioned (Post 12663890)

A few days later, he calls me back. Explains that they did the SCR warranty repair, and then were able to do the NOX warranty repair, and do a few forced regenerations and they finally took, and finally cleared the damn filter. Total cost: $0.

nice outcome! i would absolutely recommend getting at least the Carly phone app + OBD dongle to monitor you car periodically. (Or ISTA as mentioned higher in the thread - but the learning curve/commitment is higher on that route).

What you really need to do right now is make sure your coolant temperature gets to, and stays at, at least 80, or ideally 90 degrees celcius after the car has warmed up. You also need to see if you have faults on 3 or more glow plugs. Mechanics and dealers will readily miss a faulty thermostat because it doesn't throw an error. They need to actually drive the car around and test the coolant temp. Many don't do that and are oblivious. Do not believe them if they say "its all fine now". Trust me - you should monitor it. (Thread here where edycol helped me troubleshoot that temp and thermostat change. you can check coolant temp without an app.) A faulty thermostat can conceivably lead to glow plug faults because the car is continuously in 'warm up mode', utilising the glow plugs much more than typically needed, and failing.

If you have a problem with either of those (glow plugs or thermostat), you *may* find your freshly regen'd DPF will slowly block up again in coming months.

I have been down your path, and eventually got it all fixed. I'm one of the Australians that had to resort to getting the DPF removed/cleaned via heat/blasting methods used with trucks/tractors - NOT liquid cleaning - fingers crossed you've caught it early enough you don't have to investigate doing that.

I now open up Carly once ever 2-3 months to make sure all is working under the hood. Have been problem free for about 2 years now thanks to the problem solving help on this forum! :)

Pete


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