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-   -   DPF soot rising very quickly prompting too frequent regens? (https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=917033)

AU Pete 06-12-2016 03:07 AM

DPF soot rising very quickly prompting too frequent regens?
 
firstly - sorry, I've posted a flurry of questions lately. I really do appreciate the help of everyone that is providing valuable advice.

------

Now - my 2007 X5 3.0d with 125,000km (have owned it for 1 year) had the dreaded 'DPF Blocked' message twice 3-4 months ago. After repeated forced regens, I had the thermostats changed thanks to advice on this forum and in particular edycol - which got my regens happening again. Somehow 2 mechanics did not think to look at the thermostats.

I recently got the Carly app and have been happily watching regens now occur on the highway. Problem is - the regens are occurring very frequently, and the soot level is climbing very quickly after each regen.

Before a regen, Carly tells me soot mass is around 42g, and ash mass is about 36g.

Immediately after a regen, the soot mass drops to 4g. But then within 3 minutes of continued highway driving the soot mass has climbed right back to 25g, and then within 30-40 minutes the soot mass is back up to around 40-42g. The last 4 or so regens (since I've had the carly app) have occurred about every 80km.

I'm not seeing any warning lights on the idrive/dash, but using Carly I can see an intermittent 'hidden' fault appearing which is

- Fault: Particle filter system
- Code: 004667

So - Why would the soot mass be rising so quickly? Could it be that its so clogged with ash that repeated regens are having little benefit? While I don't know specifically what oil I have in the engine, that was my BMW indy mechanics first thought 3 months ago when he serviced it for the first time, and we're now making sure BMW approved low ash oil is in it and being changed every 6 months from now on.

I am unaware of what oil was used prior to me owning the car, service records were in order BUT, the timing chain broke after the oil pump seized 2 months into ownership. Thats another thread yet to be written - but I'm mentioning it here as there's a suspicion it didn't have the right oil used in its earlier life, so perhaps that has shortened the life of the DPF...

I know of a place in Sydney (http://www.dpfcleaning.com.au/) that will clean the DPF for around $750 depending on what they find. Or I'm wondering if my DPF is one of the ones that are easily removable and I could attempt a DIY clean like this - http://5series.net/forums/diy-do-you...nce-dpf-94725/.

Any thoughts on either of those options - or whats going on?

I love how this car drives but the list of things to fix has aged me a few extra years :) I guess the wonders of computers is making me aware of things I would have otherwise not seen.

Thankyou, Pete

-----

PS: At the same time I'm researching a glow plug error code - likely the controller module, heres that thread, and I have had at least some oil in the turbo air intake, and likely the intercooler (thread) - I'm mentioning these in case they could have some relevance to this specific DPF issue.

Doug Huffman 06-12-2016 06:00 AM

OTR - Over The Road - tractors' DPF are intended to be removed and cleaned periodically by third party contractors. I pray that service will be available for automotive DPF at an economical fraction of the removal/replacement cost.

AU Pete 06-12-2016 03:17 PM

At this point I'm considering trying an additive that I'm expecting won't make much difference - but if it's only a few dollars, maybe worth the gamble...

http://m.supercheapauto.com.au/Produ...ae-Stop/347774

Thoughts?

Could a fuel additive like that cause more problems than it tries to fix?

ard 06-12-2016 03:20 PM

Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....

AU Pete 06-12-2016 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 9714445)
Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....


I'm curious about that too. I suspect it's a guess based on the distance the DPF has done, combined with some back pressure values from some sensors. There's a looooong list of parameters available in Carly to monitor - so I'll try to decipher some of those to get some raw sensor values...

AU Pete 06-12-2016 03:27 PM

DPF soot rising very quickly prompting too frequent regens?
 
For all I know this process of repeated short regens may be completely normal for the computer to action after a long period of no regens / blockage

Doug Huffman 06-12-2016 03:38 PM

Last I looked, my average mileage between regenerations was a bit more than 150 miles.

Aufgeblassen 06-12-2016 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9714438)

Could a fuel additive like that cause more problems than it tries to fix?

http://rlv.zcache.com/i_doubt_it_bum..._8byvr_512.jpg

ninja_zx11 06-12-2016 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 9714445)
Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....

I think DDE calculates the flow resistance of the DPF by monitoring the pressure difference between readings before and after particulate filter to calculate the soot load.

edycol 06-12-2016 09:14 PM

Hmmm, for me red flag is seized oil pump. Why it seized? It could be that:
1. Wrong oil was used
2. That when oil pump seized DPF got clogged with more oil vapors then what it would be normal and that due to the amount of oil regeneration cannot burn it.
I am not sure whether I would believe those measurements on Carly.
This is my 5 cents. It could be just that wrong oil was used before you became an owner together with heavy city driving.

n1das 06-12-2016 10:45 PM

I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP. Could be something as simple as a boost leak and causing it to roll coal. Could be a number of other things. If the car didn't have a DPF you probably would see it as visible black smoke ("rolling coal").

Visible smoke from a diesel without a DPF previously was useful as a diagnostic tool. By paying attention to the amount of smoke, type of smoke, and the conditions when it is produced, you could get an idea of what's going on inside the engine. Now with our DPF equipped diesels, the DPF does a good job of "hiding" smoke such that it's possible to have a soot problem and not know it until the DPF is loaded up prematurely. That means it's important to stay on top of all maintenance and quickly take care of anything that would cause the engine to make a lot of soot.

I think the DPF is OK but something is causing the engine to roll coal and load the DPF up very quickly.

Good luck.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

ard 06-13-2016 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja_zx11 (Post 9714854)
I think DDE calculates the flow resistance of the DPF by monitoring the pressure difference between readings before and after particulate filter to calculate the soot load.

One possibility:

It may be the computer sets the value to 0 immediately after a regen, based on the assumption it has just been cleaned/emptied...but then, rapidly, as you drive the sensors (flow resistance, pressure differentials) become apparent and the computer then recalculates the soot load.

Which would mean it isnt creating massive amounts of soot and clogging, rather it is clogged and remains clogs- OR the sensors that are used to calculate the loads are somehow in error....

Just my 2 cents...have not paid much attention to this.

AU Pete 06-13-2016 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edycol (Post 9714870)
Hmmm, for me red flag is seized oil pump. Why it seized? It could be that:
1. Wrong oil was used
2. That when oil pump seized DPF got clogged with more oil vapors then what it would be normal

Yep - and that unknown has caused me a lot of stress, at the time, and now in trying to minimise future problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n1das (Post 9714956)
I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP. Could be something as simple as a boost leak and causing it to roll coal. Could be a number of other things. If the car didn't have a DPF you probably would see it as visible black smoke ("rolling coal").

Thank you - makes sense (the DPF hiding smoke/warning signs).
I think I'm going to have to see my indy mechanic.

The car is using ZERO oil... literally not dropping a mm on the dipstick over the last few months and I'm checking it weekly.

My mechanic at the last service was concerned about some oil in the turbo air intake hose, and thus the longevity of the turbo. He was concerned that, given the history with the oil pump seizing, that the turbo oil supply line might be less than great, and over time it might starve of oil. But theres no sign of it failing - or using any oil at all. And it drives great. I don't really have anything to compare it to, but in sport mode in particular its *quick*. No lag, no flat spots - pulls hard all the way to redline.

Aufgeblassen 06-13-2016 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n1das (Post 9714956)
I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP.

The cause of massive soot is retarded injection timing. At the same time, your MPG and power would be greatly diminished.

If your MPG is perfectly normal, then you are not making excessive soot.

edycol 06-13-2016 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9715061)
Yep - and that unknown has caused me a lot of stress, at the time, and now in trying to minimise future problems.



Thank you - makes sense (the DPF hiding smoke/warning signs).
I think I'm going to have to see my indy mechanic.

The car is using ZERO oil... literally not dropping a mm on the dipstick over the last few months and I'm checking it weekly.

My mechanic at the last service was concerned about some oil in the turbo air intake hose, and thus the longevity of the turbo. He was concerned that, given the history with the oil pump seizing, that the turbo oil supply line might be less than great, and over time it might starve of oil. But theres no sign of it failing - or using any oil at all. And it drives great. I don't really have anything to compare it to, but in sport mode in particular its *quick*. No lag, no flat spots - pulls hard all the way to redline.

I would also zero in on turbo oil supply line and change it. I am not sure why oil pump seized, but some VW engines seized due to wrong oil being used and that line might have some sludge left in.
Oil in turbo intake hose is I believe evaporation loss of oil you are using. Switch to something more stable like Mobil1 5W30 ESP, Shell Helix Ultra (very low evaporation loss) that meet LL-04.

AU Pete 06-19-2016 05:43 PM

I've not had a chance to get the car to the mechanic yet.

But just researching causes of excessive soot, (still 50% suspecting Carly may be reporting incorrect figures, but researching excessive soot causes anyway) on this other board they mention a blocked 'turbo breather' would be a creator of soot problems which generally doesn't cause power issues. Is this part the same as the 'crankcase breather filter'?

It's possible I have the old "sponge / loo role breather" - so changing to a newer Vortex filter may be in order...? it doesn't look like it was changed as part of recent services, and i have no history beyond a year back

Plausible cause of soot in this case and good thing to change anyway?

I figured it looked like an easy DIY so something i could do prior to seeing mechanic

edycol 06-19-2016 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9724518)
I've not had a chance to get the car to the mechanic yet.

But just researching causes of excessive soot, (still 50% suspecting Carly may be reporting incorrect figures, but researching excessive soot causes anyway) on this other board they mention a blocked 'turbo breather' would be a creator of soot problems which generally doesn't cause power issues. Is this part the same as the 'crankcase breather filter'?

It's possible I have the old "sponge / loo role breather" - so changing to a newer Vortex filter may be in order...? it doesn't look like it was changed as part of recent services, and i have no history beyond a year back

Plausible cause of soot in this case and good thing to change anyway?

I figured it looked like an easy DIY so something i could do prior to seeing mechanic

if it is breather probably wrong oil was used.
I always stay amazed when people say: oh I use "synthetic" oil. Yeah, but what synthetic oil s more important.

AU Pete 06-19-2016 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edycol (Post 9724581)
if it is breather probably wrong oil was used.
I always stay amazed when people say: oh I use "synthetic" oil. Yeah, but what synthetic oil s more important.

point taken. not having that history of oil used before I got the car, I'm thinking a good plan of attack is to replace regardless.

Hypothetical general question - Do you think if the correct oil was used for the entire life of one of these diesels, the breather (old style foam loo roll type) would not block up?

edycol 06-19-2016 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9724599)
point taken. not having that history of oil used before I got the car, I'm thinking a good plan of attack is to replace regardless.

Hypothetical general question - Do you think if the correct oil was used for the entire life of one of these diesels, the breather (old style foam loo roll type) would not block up?

Probably not. I have seen numerous 3.0ltr engines, single and twin turbos, and they rarely developed this issue if proper oil is used and if they are driven the way BMW is made to be driven.
I am again pointing to my brothers E61 525d that racked up some 290K (miles) and never had single issue except thermostat (other stuff that was replaced was part of regular maintenance).
But he always used BMW LL-04 oil and car saw speeds upward of 120mph all the time (this is in Europe).
Change breather, and considering that you know what you doing, just keep good maintenance and do not be shy to step on it.
From all your posts I think that car was bit neglected by previous owner.

AU Pete 06-22-2016 05:07 PM

Update: spoke to a guy that cleans DPFs daily. He said (and also makes sense after more research on a variety of makes) it's the classic signs of a DPF nearing the end of its useful life (distance between regens dropping to under 100km). His theory was when a manufacturer says 'lifetime' service from a DPF, they're meaning about 200,000km or 10 years. So that, coupled with not knowing what oil was in it before I owned it, or if it just putted around the city for 100,000km I'm going to get the DPF removed and cleaned. At least that will give a good baseline with ash & soot completely removed, and then if there are problems remaining I can deal with those better knowing 100% the DPF is not simply clogging up. Cost of this is $650 (AUS dollars).

The Carly app, or the car, calculating the soot gram amount is based on a variety of pressure numbers, and distance the car has travelled etc, so its probably more indicative of absolute pressure in the DPF, and not literally soot. Which is pretty much what ARD said above. (with the sensors recalculating the estimated soot level on the fly based on pressure)

So next step is to get my mechanic to remove the DPF and we send it off to the pro cleaner. (Unfortunately the cleaner isn't a mechanic so doesn't do the end to end service).

The other option is I attempt to remove the DPF myself and take off the sensors etc. But I can't see any DIY writeups on physically removing it, and clearance under the car probably makes it a no go.

Anyone know if the car will need to be remapped or anything once the cleaned DPF goes back on? or just plug it in and the computer (hopefully) sorts out the resetting of numbers via various sensors?

AU Pete 06-22-2016 05:32 PM

Oh, and I also have some pretty graphs to share. These are using parameters logged by the Carly app, then put through a spreadsheet app + photoshop to overlay the various parameters.

I wanted to see if Liqui-Moly Diesel Particulate Anti-ClogAlgae Stop fuel additive did anything. It looks like it may reduce the time a little for the initial regen to have an effect on the pressure. Regardless, I'm still thinking I'll get the DPF cleaned as above.

This first chart is before adding the fuel additive.
In both you can see the regens occurring.
You can click on the images to see a bigger version of each.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/7x8um0ts1v...mall.jpg?raw=1

This next chart is after adding the additive.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv4np2wwjm...mall.jpg?raw=1

Aufgeblassen 06-23-2016 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9729035)
Oh, and I also have some pretty graphs to share. These are using parameters logged by the Carly app, then put through a spreadsheet app + photoshop to overlay the various parameters.

I wanted to see if Liqui-Moly Diesel Particulate Anti-ClogAlgae Stop fuel additive did anything. It looks like it may reduce the time a little for the initial regen to have an effect on the pressure. Regardless, I'm still thinking I'll get the DPF cleaned as above.

This first chart is before adding the fuel additive.
In both you can see the regens occurring.
You can click on the images to see a bigger version of each.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rt-2-small.jpg

This next chart is after adding the additive.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rt-1-small.jpg

So is the bottom line that you recommend us to ADD said additive, or AVOID using it? :eek::eek::eek:

AU Pete 06-23-2016 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen (Post 9730583)
So is the bottom line that you recommend us to ADD said additive, or AVOID using it? :eek::eek::eek:

Well it's by no means an exhaustive test.
If I had the same car with only 50,000km on it, and I was not doing a good highway run once a month, I would probably add a can of it to a tank of fuel once a year. I don't think it's going to reverse the condition of your DPF, but it might extend the useful life of the DPF if its a city car and you started adding it early. Worth a $20 a year gamble anyway. Nice on topic question!

AU Pete 07-02-2016 11:01 PM

Update:

So, I was all prepped to have my DPF removed and cleaned. Then I was forced to wait as my mechanic has a massive backlog of other work (3 x BMWs with failed transmissions and 2 with blown turbos! eeeek) - anyway, I let the issue go and revisited the mechanic this week.

While he's happy to do whatever I request, he's reluctant to remove the DPF solely based on the info provided. The ash level reported isn't near the "full" level of the DPF (supposedly 100gm), and while the car is not throwing any errors, is not burning oil, and is not losing power, he thinks I should continue driving and see if it settles itself. Its possible that as we do a lot of short trips through the week/s, coupled with colder winter weather, that it is compensating by doing more frequent regens when it hits an open stretch of highway once every few weeks.

BUT - I have just stumbled across something interesting.

In the Carly app, I've been cycling through all sorts of pressure parameters and comparing those against "normal" values others report.

There's one parameter I found today that is reporting a very odd sounding number and that is "produced soot mass per time".
I don't know which sensor/s this parameter comes from (I've contacted Carly to ask).
The number being reported is generally 0.05 - 2mg/s when driving normally, but then I'm seeing a regular spike to exactly "655.349976" throughout a logged journey. You can see this in the below charts - pointed out in red.

Looks like a faulty sensor to me - somewhere. Spiking to a high number is one thing - but then the exact same number repeatedly? And I could see this spike happening when I was driving along at a constant speed - it wasn't when I was accelerating rapidly or anything.
Perhaps its not throwing an error because its only partially failed, and if its reporting "655.349976" intermittently, this would tell the computer "the soot level is rising rapidly" and thus feed into a calculated soot mass figure rising rapidly, and thus the cycle of too-frequent regens.

(all 3 charts below are over the same period of time - just different parameters stacked on top of each other. period was about 30 minutes of city driving.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5wlsjromz...rt-3.png?raw=1


So - Any ideas? I feel like I'm closing in on a cause.

PS: (as an aside, I also changed the air filter yesterday, and the PCV Valve. Both looked in pretty good condition but I changed them regardless - just for peace of mind. this youtube video below proved very helpful even though its for an E53 and not an E70 - the process was pretty similar - easier on the E70 if anything).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LXBlUlgTjo

AU Pete 07-03-2016 02:22 AM

Further research leads me to the oxygen sensor.

This paper from 2009: "Different Approaches to Soot Estimation as Key Requirement for DPF Applications" which talks about soot and oxygen levels (makes sense) and mentions:

Quote:

There are 4 key parameters determining the regeneration efficiency ... soot mass on the filter, oxygen concentration, DPF inlet temperature and mass flow of the exhaust gas.
Of those 4, the temperature and pressure parameters I'm observing look normal.

But this "produced soot mass per time" parameter does not, and it sounds like the oxygen sensor would be used for estimating that.

There's a lot of interesting information in that PDF that I barely understand - but I'd put $20 on my problem being the oxygen sensor and it's slowly failing. Sound plausible?

regdfry 07-04-2016 04:56 AM

In reviewing Carly parameters that can be monitored, there is one called out as "Number of successful particle filter regenerations". Is this parameter incrementing with each of the attempted regenerations? Perhaps, your X5 is not completing the regen, and this leads to frequent attempts?

AU Pete 07-04-2016 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regdfry (Post 9744384)
In reviewing Carly parameters that can be monitored, there is one called out as "Number of successful particle filter regenerations". Is this parameter incrementing with each of the attempted regenerations? Perhaps, your X5 is not completing the regen, and this leads to frequent attempts?

Thanks - yeah it looks like different vehicles seem to get different parameters available in the app.

I don't have "Number of successful particle filter regenerations", but I do have "Distance traveled since the last regeneration" and "fuel consumed since the last successful regeneration".

"Distance traveled since the last regeneration (m)" is currently on 208500m (which is 208km). This one is interesting. I do see this number reset when I'm monitoring a regen - but it isn't resetting *every time* that I'm monitoring regen-like parameters being reported. So perhaps theres something in this "mini-regen" & "full-regen" cycles I'm heard people refer to.
To confirm - I'll see regen-like parameters of the DPF surface temp climbing to mid 600 degrees C for 5-10mins, and the soot level drops down to 5-10gm, but then the soot level climbs quickly again when the DPF temp returns to normal temps (around 300 degrees). And sometimes the "Distance traveled since the last regeneration (m)" will reset. sometimes it will not. The regen isn't being interrupted - I'll keep driving each time to see it complete (at least, in terms of temperature and soot level but not necessarily "complete" as far as the app/ecu is concerned)

the "fuel consumed since the last successful regeneration" is currently showing 27 litres, so that probably sounds right (208km = 27litres - highish fuel use due to city driving last 200 km).

AU Pete 07-04-2016 04:16 PM

If anyone has a diesel X5 of that era (2007 E70 3.0d - 125,000km) and the Carly app I'd be very grateful if you could monitor your soot level, surface temp of particulate filter, and distance since last regen and tell me what you see over time. (50-100km+ journey). I'd be extra grateful if you could check out the "produced soot mass per time" parameter (mine is right at the end of the parameter list - out of alpha order) to see if yours is spiking to an irregular number like mine is

I've continued looking at parameters trying to "zero in" on a sensor that might be playing up but I cant find any smoking guns. Of course it all may be completely normal!

This is what I'm trying to avoid...
"If the soot mass is over-estimated, too-frequent (excessive) regenerations take place, resulting in unnecessary fuel consumption penalty and rapid system wear-out, amongst other adverse effects."
from: https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_soot_sensors.php

Pete

f30jojo 07-04-2016 06:55 PM

I don't use Carly for many reasons (mainly there are stories of ECU hiccups), I use a scangauge. Which monitors tons of parameters but can show 4 at a time. I monitor exhaust temp before oxidation, voltage and coolant temperature. I've done tons of research and I conclude the following (and answer a few FAQ).

1. Will regens start if the thermostat is faulty? Absolutely, long story short I've seen regens begin at just over 140f. Moreover, depending on the parameters your ecu chooses for engine temperature (higher temp for more efficiency, lower temp more power). Bottom line it changes engine temp marginally.

I have a 2012 X5 35d (EU spec 3.0sd). I have a regen usually once a tank (500 miles or so). Soot reaches between 20 and 30 and usually within a few minutes the soot reads zero. Exhaust temp remains at a tad over 1100f for 20 minutes then returns to 500ish. It is VITAL you allow every regen to complete it's cycle. Otherwise it will continue to try and you'll essentially always be under a regen. THIS is where issues with "green diesel" technology arises. Soccer moms running errands, quick trips, and never really driving it hard wreak havoc on a DPF, especially without proper regenerations. My X has 62000 miles and had had zero issues besides a tire pressure monitoring issue about a year ago.

My biggest tips:

Keep you oil changed on time with recommended oil. German engineers with doctorate degree's know better than I do.

During regens, constant throttle is imperative. This is obviously only easily done on the interstate. I don't mean stomp the throttle, just barely open, maintaining 75mph suffices. This keeps exhaust temps regularly over 1100f during regen. Driving it hard actually has a cooling effect on the exhaust temp because it's moving faster through the filter.

There are times you can't help it but try and avoid stopping the engine during a regen.

Buy a scangauge! I'm.not a salesman believe me buy it's an awesome product if you'd like to know what's going on under the hood. Plus it reads and clears codes.

AU Pete 07-06-2016 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f30jojo (Post 9745284)
1. Will regens start if the thermostat is faulty?
...
Buy a scangauge! I'm.not a salesman believe me buy it's an awesome product if you'd like to know what's going on under the hood. Plus it reads and clears codes.

I've got no issue with regens starting. they seem to be starting fine, its just the frequency of them I'm concerned about. The scanguage looks great - thanks for the recommendation, but I'm not convinced Carly is giving me wrong info at this point. In saying that, I certainly dont trust it 100% - I'll prob take it to a mechanic prior to buying another stat monitoring system though

AU Pete 07-06-2016 07:36 PM

Does anyone know if exhaust pressure sensors need to be adapted (by a technician) when they are replaced?

that is my latest suspicion and at around $150 to replace I'm tempted. given many people say they often need replacing above 100,000km

blue dragon 07-06-2016 09:36 PM

There is one exhaust pressure sensor on the 35d as far as I know, and if you replace it, it has to be recalibrated.

f30jojo 07-06-2016 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9748504)
I've got no issue with regens starting. they seem to be starting fine, its just the frequency of them I'm concerned about. The scanguage looks great - thanks for the recommendation, but I'm not convinced Carly is giving me wrong info at this point. In saying that, I certainly dont trust it 100% - I'll prob take it to a mechanic prior to buying another stat monitoring system though

I understand trust me. There are times that I've seen regens happen back to back, thsts usually due to driving conditions and distance driven. I had 3 regens on a 1000 road trip, but that was after weeks of stop and go driving to and from work. Since returning from that trip (a couple weeks ago) I had my first regen just today.

I really wish there was a way to bypass all this dang green diesel technology and drive it 150k+ miles practicality worry free.

AU Pete 07-06-2016 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue dragon (Post 9748679)
There is one exhaust pressure sensor on the 35d as far as I know, and if you replace it, it has to be recalibrated.

ok - thanks - i just found your thread over here https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=885187 that talks about replacing it. Did you calibrate it yourself using... Rheingold (? just learning about that) ... or is that a job for an indy mechanic?

AU Pete 07-06-2016 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f30jojo (Post 9748680)
There are times that I've seen regens happen back to back, thsts usually due to driving conditions and distance driven. I had 3 regens on a 1000 road trip, but that was after weeks of stop and go driving to and from work. Since returning from that trip (a couple weeks ago) I had my first regen just today.

thankyou - that is reassuring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by f30jojo (Post 9748680)
I really wish there was a way to bypass all this dang green diesel technology and drive it 150k+ miles practicality worry free.

same! caused a lot of stress. though i do feel like i've learnt a lot.

blue dragon 07-07-2016 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9748694)
ok - thanks - i just found your thread over here https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=885187 that talks about replacing it. Did you calibrate it yourself using... Rheingold (? just learning about that) ... or is that a job for an indy mechanic?

I calibrated it myself using Rheingold ISTA/D

mitocross 07-23-2016 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue dragon (Post 9750058)
I calibrated it myself using Rheingold ISTA/D

Can you please write which function under which section did you use in Rheingold to specifically calibrate the pressure sensor alone?

I have the exactly the same problem as PotsyDriver (regen every 35-80km, consumption ok considering, no oil loss) and after fitting a new sensor, the BMW technician told me that on "original diagnostics" there is no function to calibrate the sensor alone, only a function of "install a new DPF" which resets everything, including the ash amount to 0 and "DPF adaptation values".
A new pressure sensor (with new hose) gives the same readings as the previous and I am thinking it was the last possibility before having to really install a new DPF.
One interesting observation: when you have Carly on, then you switch off the engine but keep ignition on, the Differential pressure across particulate filter should logically show 0 mbar (this should be equal to any passenger car), but mine shows 8192 mbar (clearly wrong amount), somethimes 0 mbar flashes for a split second. Interesting.
Second observation: Just finished regen. on highway at the top of a small hill, and descended at 100 kph (almost no throttle) for 4km till the exit to the city. The soot level reading in Carly rose from 0 to 16g. That amount must be impossible to produce by that time...

For PotsyDriver: My produced soot level reads 0,9 mg/s at idle and 0,8-1,0 at around 1500rev. I did not have time to check while driving yet.

edit: Produced spot level when driving is indeed between 0,5-2,5g. I haven't noticed any spikes to abnormal levels yet. Only when accelerating from standstill it is around 4.5mg/s. At 58km/h set at tempomat it hovers from 0.6-1.0mg/s.

f30jojo 11-07-2016 07:46 AM

Quick update on regens. I've been recording my miles between regens for a while and its almost exactly regenerating every 150 miles, give or take 5 miles. This seems like a lot to me but I do mostly city driving. I have a scangauge that shows when regen is happening in real time. There are 3 types of regen: forced, routine and spontaneous. Not sure how true that is as my regens are almost exactly at 150 mile intervals. Exhaust temp reaches 1160 ( just over 600c) for about 20 minutes. I've never thrown a code in 40k miles so I'm assuming 150 miles is ok?

ninja_zx11 11-07-2016 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f30jojo (Post 9922941)
Quick update on regens. I've been recording my miles between regens for a while and its almost exactly regenerating every 150 miles, give or take 5 miles. This seems like a lot to me but I do mostly city driving. I have a scangauge that shows when regen is happening in real time. There are 3 types of regen: forced, routine and spontaneous. Not sure how true that is as my regens are almost exactly at 150 mile intervals. Exhaust temp reaches 1160 ( just over 600c) for about 20 minutes. I've never thrown a code in 40k miles so I'm assuming 150 miles is ok?

Mine regenerates approx same as yours.City driving--regenerates after around 230-250kms(145-155 miles) but on hwy once i noticed that it had not regenerated even after 500kms.I didn't monitor at what mileage it eventually regenerated thou.

So it all depends on your driving profile.On hwy,more passive regens happening as exhaust temps are high already.

edycol 11-07-2016 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f30jojo (Post 9922941)
Quick update on regens. I've been recording my miles between regens for a while and its almost exactly regenerating every 150 miles, give or take 5 miles. This seems like a lot to me but I do mostly city driving. I have a scangauge that shows when regen is happening in real time. There are 3 types of regen: forced, routine and spontaneous. Not sure how true that is as my regens are almost exactly at 150 mile intervals. Exhaust temp reaches 1160 ( just over 600c) for about 20 minutes. I've never thrown a code in 40k miles so I'm assuming 150 miles is ok?

Same here.

bingo100 11-10-2016 04:46 PM

Hi, I seem to be having the same problem as the OP. I drive a 2005 530D 231hp. When I bought it it had 50grams of ash and few months later lost power. Wouldn't do forced regen completely. DIS was starting it, it would go for 20-30 miles then back to square one (meaning high backpressure). Then had the filter professionally cleaned, weighed before and after, lost 98grams, backpressure on idle was 7mbar instead of 60-70. Oh, also used DIS to run the replace DPF procedure to zero out all parameters, ash was at 0g. Great. Then I noticed (with Carly) that it regenerates very often and throws 04667 (too frequent regenerations). This is causing issues because if I don't monitor it the 4667 error will eventually block regeneration and DPF will clog (happened to me twice now).
- I did all of the plausabilty tests available in DIS - all plausable
- Checked injectors with INPA - all at approx 50% (there are horizontal bars so they're all bang in the middle)
- Using 5W30 Motul X-Clean
- Replaced both thermostats
- Had intercooler hoses replaced + seals due to some oil in turbo
- Fuel filter replaced
- all 6 glow plugs and controller replaced (BERU)

And this keeps happening and just drives me crazy!

http://illustrator.pl/bmw/abnormal_soot_mass.jpg
http://illustrator.pl/bmw/abnormal_soot_mass1.jpg
http://illustrator.pl/bmw/abnormal_soot_mass2.jpg

Don't have a picture at hand but also had one where it finished one regen, soot spiked and it started another one 10 miles after the first one.

As for what others mentioned about driving style during regen - absolutely best results when driving moderately. However, when it's clogged up and I'm having to force regen via software (carly or DIS, doesn't matter) I've found that I have to be beating it before it 'clicks' and raises temperature.
You can clearly see that in the first picture.
I know that regen worked because pressure dropped significantly afterwards, despite the sudden increase in soot.


Definitively a problem somewhere - fuel filter erorrs 3-5 months after replacing (using shell diesel), spark plugs started showing errors again after 3 months of replacing!

mitocross 11-11-2016 09:30 AM

Did you also monitor "produced soot mass per time" parameter in Carly? Do you also have those spikes from 0,03-6,5ish to 655,35 g/msec? I wonder which sensor in car it uses to get the values. Might lead us to something...
Another question: Have you replaced a new pressure sensor and hose leading to it, after DPF cleaning? A cracked hose or failing sensor could be causing those funny soot levels.

bingo100 11-11-2016 09:34 AM

I used to monitor it but never found this parameter useful. Don't quite remember if it was jumping like that. I'll set carly to measure it on the way home tonight and post results later.

bingo100 11-11-2016 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitocross (Post 9928298)
Did you also monitor "produced soot mass per time" parameter in Carly? Do you also have those spikes from 0,03-6,5ish to 655,35 g/msec? I wonder which sensor in car it uses to get the values. Might lead us to something...
Another question: Have you replaced a new pressure sensor and hose leading to it, after DPF cleaning? A cracked hose or failing sensor could be causing those funny soot levels.

Here are the results, as promissed:
http://illustrator.pl/bmw/gen_vs_regen.jpg

Nothing unusual there, as expected it regenerated more than generated given that it was in forced regeneration mode.

Unusual thing is, as per OP's issue, the soot mass rocketed for no reason as soon as regeneration status changed to blocked. I'm not going to dwell on this fact though, as the same symptom can occur right after a successful regeneration as well. (in other words, I have no idea what the heck is going on :mad: )

I would love to know how this particular DPF is calculating soot and how to make it behave itself.

Nope, didn't replace any sensors. But looking at backpressure readings at idle it may have something to do with it. Just today, starting the car when cold it was showing 13mbar, few seconds later it was 9mbar, and then two light stops away it was 25, then 35mbar. When I get in tomorrow I'm sure it will be in the 13-15 region. So it does react to heat.

I don't really want to replace it, would much rather do a part exchange for a 530i 272ps :grin:

mitocross 11-11-2016 01:20 PM

That could well be the sensor or the small hose connecting it to DPF - probably old and cracked. Those are relatively cheap parts and not hard to replace. No coding/resetting needed.
If you decide to change it,buy original hose,and don't listen mechanics offering a cheap cut hose from somewhere else. The hose is connected to DPF and gasses with temperatures more than 600 deg.C.

bingo100 11-11-2016 01:46 PM

@mitocross - I might give it a go later on. Should be a DIY jobby. But still deep down I think this is software rather than hardware problem.

AU Pete 12-19-2016 06:40 PM

Dropping in to this thread to update my status as its been a little while.
I was hell bent on removing the DPF and getting it cleaned out. My mechanic was not particularly keen to do this while the car was throwing no errors on the dash and the DPF was regenerating itself (albeit frequently). He noted there was a risk of causing other probs with damaging o2 sensors etc in removing the DPF. He was keen to just monitor it and make sure the right oil was in it.

It's been almost 6 months and I'm glad to say there's no other major problems and the DPF is continuing to regenerate - albeit still frequently - about every 100-120km.

After living with the car for a while I believe this is probably caused by 2 things:

a) it does a decent amount of city driving so driving habits probably force more frequent regens than usual
b) I believe the car had the wrong oil in it previously (which likely caused a timing chain failure - one that i've finally detailed in a sep thread) and I suspect the DPF is simply nearing the end of its useful life - which has been reached prematurely by the wrong type of oil creating excess soot for a period. Ash mass has risen from 36 to 38gm in the last 6 months. I suspect the actual value is higher than that as its a simulated figure I believe in this modal. It makes sense that the DPF would need progressively more frequent regens as it gets full of ash (ash isn't burnt off/removed as part of regeneration) - it wouldn't just operate at 100% efficiency until the day it dies.

So currently its regenerating itself fine, albeit frequently, and I have no loss in power or other problems. so I just intend to keep driving until the DPF one day completely clogs full of ash. that may be in 1 year - it may be 5+ years, but I figure I'll just get the DPF removed and cleaned, or replaced at that time.

AU Pete 12-20-2016 11:08 PM

I should have stayed away and just kept driving my car ;-)

Now I've started reading about turbo waste gates and how they can fail.

On the N47 (yes, not my engine) they talk about a design problem with the waste gate failing partially open
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N47#Other_Issues

Is it possible the turbo wastegate is partially open - and creating excess soot? thus quickly filling up the DPF? any easy ways to check/diagnose?

any help/pointers appreciated

edycol 12-21-2016 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9971120)
I should have stayed away and just kept driving my car ;-)

Now I've started reading about turbo waste gates and how they can fail.

On the N47 (yes, not my engine) they talk about a design problem with the waste gate failing partially open
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N47#Other_Issues

Is it possible the turbo wastegate is partially open - and creating excess soot? thus quickly filling up the DPF? any easy ways to check/diagnose?

any help/pointers appreciated

Should not faulty waste gate throw code?

AU Pete 12-21-2016 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edycol (Post 9971159)
Should not faulty waste gate throw code?

well - i'm not sure. I wondered if something like a wastegate fails gradually. sticking "slightly" open.

It was interesting to see mitocross also posted above about this "produced soot mass per time" parameter in Carly spiking to a very high number, the same behaviour I observed earlier in the thread, I thought maybe a randomly sticking or partially closed waste gate may have caused that irregularity.

No one in the thread has suggested which sensor that parameter may be generated by. Carly themselves have not provided any specific info to me at this stage. Of course its totally possible the app is at fault and just reporting odd/spiking numbers.

But the wastegate sounded like 1 thing (of many) that might produce excess soot if it was not operating 100% correctly.

edycol 12-21-2016 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotsyDriver (Post 9971167)
well - i'm not sure. I wondered if something like a wastegate fails gradually. sticking "slightly" open.

It was interesting to see mitocross also posted above about this "produced soot mass per time" parameter in Carly spiking to a very high number, the same behaviour I observed earlier in the thread, I thought maybe a randomly sticking or partially closed waste gate may have caused that irregularity.

No one in the thread has suggested which sensor that parameter may be generated by. Carly themselves have not provided any specific info to me at this stage. Of course its totally possible the app is at fault and just reporting odd/spiking numbers.

But the wastegate sounded like 1 thing (of many) that might produce excess soot if it was not operating 100% correctly.

I had to replace EGR because of code (warranty). Turned out it was pressure converter since code was back after new EGR was installed. I would say at one point it will throw code.

Ozer 12-21-2016 06:50 AM

I have a 2011 x5d and use carly with gen 1 adapter.
My soot mass and couple other DPF related parameters never show anything, anyone has this issue?
I emailed Carly to ask for a warranty replacement, i think the dongles have lifetime warranty.
It also gives me errors and saying connection lost.

Doug Huffman 12-21-2016 07:46 AM

A connection stability update came out yesterday. It appears to me that one cannot navigate away from a page and keep its settings.

Recently I worked to force a DPF regeneration, monitoring some parameters to see when the motor was hot enough. Then I navigated to the DPF page and went through the request rigamarole. When I went back to parameters to monitor the regeneration, the previous monitored parameters were gone.

I was driving in blowing snow at ~15F on our longest straightest road at 70 kph and couldn't stand the distraction of continually tinkering with Carly.

Ozer 12-21-2016 08:12 AM

Yes i had that issue as well, i was doing the same thing and very distracting while driving and kept getting CONNECTION LOST message while changing parameters. My blood pressure went up im sure and i said F it!! and closed it out.

edycol 12-21-2016 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozer (Post 9971301)
I have a 2011 x5d and use carly with gen 1 adapter.
My soot mass and couple other DPF related parameters never show anything, anyone has this issue?
I emailed Carly to ask for a warranty replacement, i think the dongles have lifetime warranty.
It also gives me errors and saying connection lost.

Mine shows everything, but it is Gen II.
Agree with Doug, Carly is seriously unfriendly!

Ozer 12-21-2016 09:57 AM

All that was working before but now they are trying to force people to buy the Gen 2 which isn't right.
I understand that new features are available with gen 2 but dont eliminate features that used to work with gen 1 and only allow them to work with gen 2.

Anyone else has gen 1 and cant use some older features?

edycol 12-21-2016 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozer (Post 9971486)
All that was working before but now they are trying to force people to buy the Gen 2 which isn't right.
I understand that new features are available with gen 2 but dont eliminate features that used to work with gen 1 and only allow them to work with gen 2.

Anyone else has gen 1 and cant use some older features?

Agree. Carly is great idea, but they fail in a lot of areas. They just updated app. The background is now white with small blue letters and numbers. Impossible to see in sun.

AU Pete 08-09-2017 04:41 PM

Hi all,

Just wanted to post an update - i have a theory about the Soot Mass "rising very quickly" and causing alarm.

Essentially, my theory is what Ard proposed back on page 1...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 9715030)
One possibility:
It may be the computer sets the value to 0 immediately after a regen, based on the assumption it has just been cleaned/emptied...but then, rapidly, as you drive the sensors (flow resistance, pressure differentials) become apparent and the computer then recalculates the soot load.

Which would mean it isnt creating massive amounts of soot and clogging, rather it is clogged and remains clogs- OR the sensors that are used to calculate the loads are somehow in error....

I've come to believe Ard is exactly right.
Here's why I believe that:

I monitored "Soot Mass" and "Simulated Soot Mass" simultaneously and charted the values.
If you just monitor these values while driving nothing weird jumps out.

When you chart the values, something very interesting appears.

They will display different values for a while, and then watch what happens when a regen starts...

Lets say you start with these parameters:
Soot Mass = 43gm, and Simulated Soot Mass = 36gm.
Then you notice a regen commencing (mine usually starts around 43gm-44gm soot mass).
The simulated soot mass number will begin dropping, and suddenly the "soot mass" value will jump to be an identical number to "simulated soot mass".

This is a key point.

The soot mass value has just shifted (i believe) from an actual reading (at least, a calculation of what it believes is the soot mass based on back pressure sensor values - i'm not saying theres a tiny set of scales in the DPF :) ), to a made up / simulated reading.

So the regen happens over the next 10 mins, your Soot Mass has dropped to somewhere between 0-15gm, and you think - 'Great! my DPF is now cleaned somewhat', but it hasn't, its still reflecting the "simulated soot mass" value - or the best case scenario. In practice, your DPF probably only burnt off a small amount of soot because its getting less and less efficient as it gets older. So in practice, lets assume over the period of that successful regen it just actually dropped from 43gm to 38gm. Again, you think it dropped to 0-15gm, because thats what the parameter said, but it didn't.

So then 3 minutes after your successful regen, the "Soot Mass" parameter switches back to a real reading (away from a simulated reading.)
It then begins climbing rapidly - because the computer is continuously recalculating the value based on pressure readings - and the distance travelled.
After 1 minute its displaying 20gm. Computer says "No - its still higher". Soot Mass keeps climbing.
After 3 minutes its displaying 30gm. Computer says "No - its still higher" Soot Mass keeps climbing.
It rapidly climbs up to 38gm and then stabilises, and begins climbing slower.
That's because its returned to its actual value it was physically able to regenerate to.
Then you've got a relatively short distance to travel before your soot mass climbs from 38gm to 43gm and the regen process has to start again.

Confirming - My belief is that a successful regen is only actually reducing the Soot Mass from 43gm to 38gm each time (in my case). And this is completely normal, and the best it can do given the remaining life of the DPF.


We think the forever rapidly climbing numbers are a problem, but its now my belief its just the computer recalculating the figures and shifting from a simulated value to a real value.

Here's my proof from charted values of simultaneously monitoring soot mass and simulated soot mass...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dduv2absws...eory.png?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/df7kmzj2q9...eory.png?raw=1

So, in summary - I think Ard was right on Page 1.
I think this is just what happens when your DPF is nearing full.
Normal operating behaviour, until it fills completely and can no longer do active regens, at which point you get it removed/cleaned, or replace it.

Badsmerf 08-09-2017 08:09 PM

I haven't read the entire thread, but 125km is not very much. For some reason your dpf doesn't look like it is operating correctly. Your trend lines look great too.

TroubledGnome 08-10-2017 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU Pete (Post 10688705)
Hi all,

Just wanted to post an update - i have a theory about the Soot Mass "rising very quickly" and causing alarm.

Essentially, my theory is what Ard proposed back on page 1...


When you chart the values, something very interesting appears.

Nice work and sounds logical.

I'll be curious to see if people that tow with some regularity have longer lived DPF. I've noticed when pulling the 12' enclosed trailer my exhaust temps go in and out of re-generation numbers when pulling on hilly terrain. So you sort of end up with a very long regeneration cycle depending on the length of the trip.

I have 109k miles now and my soot mass numbers stay low for quite some time after a regeneration if I'm on the highway.

AU Pete 08-13-2017 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroubledGnome (Post 10693017)
I'll be curious to see if people that tow with some regularity have longer lived DPF.

I think most people towing something are probably by nature of whatever they're towing clocking up some great out of town miles. So you're in a good place on 2 counts:

1) you're probably doing some regular long drives keeping the exhaust temp high
2) the extra load of towing would compound those nice consistent high exhaust temps

both of those would (i imagine) promote long periods of passive regeneration going up and down those hills, which in turn amount to long periods between active regeneration being necessary.

AU Pete 10-24-2017 05:16 PM

===
Note: thereís no question here at the end of this - just providing a brain dump :)
===

Well after about 16 months since starting this thread, I think I have a satisfactory resolution so am providing an update.

Up until 6 weeks ago my 3.0d X5 was continuing to regenerate the DPF fine (albeit quite frequently).

Over the last 6-12 months Iíve had a glow plug errors on 2 cylinders. This did *NOT* stop the car regenerating, Iím in a warm climate and it didnít cause a rough idle when cold - so it was just ignored.

6 weeks ago I got the dreaded ĎParticulate filter blockedí error on the dash (a 481A fault code). A scan of the codes in Carly showed I now had glow plug fault code now on 3 cylinders, along with the 481A code. As I now know, an error on 3 cylinders seems to be the threshold. Once I had 3, the car would no longer regenerate, even after trying to clear the codes and go for a highway drive etc.

Off it went to the mechanic and upon my request (based on reading this forum) I asked for the glow plug controller module to be checked along with the glow plugs themselves. As suspected, the glow plug controller (alone) was indeed the fault. After it was replaced it was again regenerating successfully - and I had no fault codes. Thanks to the forum - saved the cost of unnecessarily replacing glow plugs.

Then 2 weeks later - I had the 481A fault code again showing in Carly and no other errors. At that point, I was at the point I knew was coming - that the DPF was full. I could go for a long highway drive and clear it eventually - but this is not sustainable as my wife needs to drive the car around town - and when driven around town with so little ďheadroomĒ left in the DPF, it was at a stage where regens would be continually interrupted and the 481A fault code would inevitably appear.

So I then progressed to getting the DPF removed and cleaned by Western Filters here in Sydney. another member had the same treatment done there aswell.

The bad news: In removing the DPF a temperature sensor was damaged and had to be replaced. Another mechanic had warned me about this - essentially theyíre prone to being damaged when removed because they kinda get fused on there - being exposed to such high heat during regens. So Iíd only recommend going down this DPF removal route as a last resort because of this risk.

The good news: Iím now getting about 250km-350km between regens depending on driving conditions (city vs highway) instead of seemingly continual or every 80km or so.

I donít think the DPF cleaning has left it ďas good as newĒ. I think one can expect longer distances between regens with a brand new DPF. But it has cleaned it out somewhat and at least now seems to have some headroom so hopefully itíll be able to regen when it needs to to counteract the inevitable short drives it still has to do around town. (We do a long highway drive about once a month). In short, previously the ďsoot massĒ would rapidly rise all the way to 43gm and kick off a regen frequently. Now after a regen the soot mass settles in around the high 20ís and low 30ís for much longer, before eventually rising to 43gm after 250-350km.

I gather itís unusual to have to get to this point (the DPF should in theory last as long as the car), but I believe my car may have just been a 100% city car before I got it (and before I knew what a DPF was) and could easily have had any one of the following issues that could have caused the car to not regenerate:

- faulty thermostat (they generally fail open, keep the engine too cool, and wont throw a fault code)
- glow plug error code on 3 or more cylinders
- temperature sensor on the DPF throwing a fault code

In the time Iíve had it (2 years) Iíve had all of these problems at various stages. And of course the longer the car drives around not properly regenerating, the worse the DPF becomes clogged - so I could imagine it being (potentially) an ignored problem by a previous owner.

Anyway, hopefully Iíve got several years of extended DPF life in it now after having it cleaned out.
Hereís a chart that shows how itís only regenerating once on a long drive - as compared to continually in the charts Iíd posted previously.

Car is driving great with no fault codes over the last 3-4 weeks I've been testing it before posting this resolution.

I also highly recommend charting your parameters if you are trying to solve problems - it makes it much easier to spot trends.

Pete

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tf9c5cqnsr...hart.png?raw=1

RPsX5d 10-27-2017 09:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Pete - thanks for this "brain dump", I have been watching this thread, very useful information!

I have the iOS version of Carly (v32.3.7).

Question - assuming you are also on an iPhone/iOS, which Carly parameter are you using to read the distance traveled since last regen? Is it - "Vehicle mileage at the last regen"? If not, which one do you use?

My X5d - 2011MY, June 2010 build, 122,500 miles.

Attached are the Carly parameters I am currently monitoring . . . this screen reflects the changes I made after reading your thread.

Thanks again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU Pete (Post 11354697)
===
The good news: Iím now getting about 250km-350km between regens depending on driving conditions (city vs highway) instead of seemingly continual or every 80km or so.


mitocross 10-28-2017 08:45 AM

Hello everyone,
Over the past year we have been writing messages and sharing info together with Pete, trying to find a solution to this.
I have been through a process of unsuccessful DPF cleaning (clogged by "wet" cleaning method, 30km between regens) to buying a brand new OEM DPF filter together with changing all the sensors for new ones, faulty glow plugs+controller, and more... No significant changes were observed after the changes - apart from buing new DPF of course.
My new DPF has ran more than 20000km since installing and the frequency of my regenerations is approx 150-200km constantly doing city driving, 200-300km highway, and a combination of all. Additionally partial regenerations are happening in between as well sometimes.
By reading this thread all over again I have an impression the distance between regenerations this short is normal on an E70. This can be quite "depressing" when everyone on forums about other cars (evern other manufacturer cars) writes about 400-600km normal and 1000km max. (BMWs will trigger regen automatically at this mileage). But I have yet to find the magical solution to our cars behaving as they are and not as most other cars do.
What I am sure of is that too many short city drives is the worst case scenario for DPF health due to low exhaust temperatures. This applies to any DPF in any car.

I would welcome if more people can write the Distance between regeneration in this thread. Thank you.

Doug Huffman 10-28-2017 09:20 AM

Last I looked, and not recently, 150 miles (240 km). I have since had before and after NOx sensors changed.

My X5 is subject to chronic short trips ~<20 miles, 45 mph speed limit, and freezing temperatures most of the year.

I always drive it like I stole it, in manual to keep >2000 RPM.

dzlbimmer 10-28-2017 11:46 AM

Im averaging 170 mile intervals per carly app. Mostly short driving, good amount of kid-in-car idling, and about 40% of my mileage on highway.
Im at 101k

On my list are: vacuum lines, DPF diff sensor, all switching valves, nox sensors.
completed already thermostat and ex pressure sensor.

After these, Im hoping that I will increase my interval by creating less soot and reading the soot more accurately.
I currently have a throttle plate fault so Im actually not regenerating at all right now. grr

RPsX5d 10-28-2017 12:18 PM

My X5d - 2011MY, 2010 June build, ~122,700 miles.

478 successful regens over a period of 7+ years and ~122,700 miles.

Here is a thread I ran across that lists ash mass, regens and miles.

That works out to about 260 miles between regens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitocross (Post 11386209)
. . . I would welcome if more people can write the Distance between regeneration in this thread. Thank you.


AU Pete 10-30-2017 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPsX5d (Post 11383945)
Question - assuming you are also on an iPhone/iOS, which Carly parameter are you using to read the distance traveled since last regen? Is it - "Vehicle mileage at the last regen"? If not, which one do you use?

I'm using the "Distance traveled since the last regeneration" parameter.
I gather different models will get a different set of parameters appearing in Carly though - so while there's a bunch of parameters we both have, there's probably some that only some of us are seeing.

(My X5 is a 3.0d 08/2007 build).

On the distance between regens generally... another thing I've noticed:

I note sometimes I'll see a behaviour from the DPF that suggests its regenerating (high DPF temp + falling soot mass) but then after that process is done (lets say 10 mins of driving) it'll appear to finish its regen (exhaust temp falls back down and soot mass starts slowly rising again) and the "Distance traveled since the last regeneration" parameter will not reset to zero. I gather this is one of the different types of regeneration happening (passive?) and not an "active" regeneration. Anyway - long story short - when I refer to the distance between regens I'm always referring to a regen that causes the "Distance traveled since the last regeneration" parameter to be reset to zero. If one was just monitoring exhaust temp and soot mass they might get confused about what their real distance between regens are.

Pete

GoNz0 01-28-2018 03:25 PM

Interesting read, having the same sort of issues on my 535d, levels are ok and the damn thing regenerates far more than I think it should. I have only had it a few months and fixed all the reasons why it wouldn't regenerate, I think it is doing it around 100 miles or less. I only just recorded the 1st one as ISTA claims to have records of the last 3 regens but it seems the last 2 are false readings.

Anyway I will keep an eye on things now, thanks for the insight.

COdieselx5 01-31-2018 10:34 PM

Following here fellas. I have a 2009 E70 x5 35d approaching 90k miles.
It lived in So Cal a little over a year ago, when it went into the BMW dealership for scheduled maintenance and check engine light.
Regarding engine codes, our invoice said "FAULTY ACTIVE TANK, SENSORS SHORT CIRCUITED, CANNOT ACCURATELY METER DEF AMOUNT, CAUSED SCR TO FAIL."
And on another line item, "SECONDARY FAULT FOR DPF, CLOGGED, DUE TO SHORT DISTANCE DRIVING, PERFORMED REGEN" though we all know nothing is short distance in Los Angeles.
To remedy these, they replaced the active tank, exhaust pipe w/ catalytic, and nox sensor (which?) to the tune of $5500.
A month after this service, Jan 2017, the car moved to Colorado, with no check engine light.
A few months went by and the check engine light came on. We brought it to a reputable BMW mechanic 8/17.
Codes:
4A1E (P0676) GLOW PLUG, CYLINDER 6, ACTIVATION
4A6F (P066B)GLOW CONTROL UNIT
4A1F (P067F) GLOW CONTROL UNIT
4B81 (P0402) EXHAUST-GAS RECIRCULATION-RATE CONTROL, CONTROL DEVIATION

They recommended replace all glow plugs and module before winter. Brought it back in Dec to replace two bad glow plugs (They said the module tested good) and came up with more codes:
4a6f - glow control unit output stage cylinder 1 faulty
4a1f - Glow control unit output stage cylinder 6 faulty
4bf5 - Nox sensor before denox cat signal nitrogen oxide
43e2 - throttle valve actuator activation
4530 - charge air pressure control deviation
480a - particulate filter system
459ch/17820 undocumented code

In addition, the car/computer had begun to indicate "engine malfunction reduced output" message sometimes the first acceleration out of the driveway, and sometimes when trying to maintain cruising speed uphill, usually in cold weather. The engine never actually lost much power but mpg would momentarily spike as the throttle let off slightly. This always goes away after a few seconds.

All they recommend now is replace nox sensor ($900), replace DPF ($3300), replace glow module and other 4 glow plugs, and they recommended an engine vac for all the soot, which i know is just going to push more junk to the dpf.

What can you guys recommend for me here, esp. Pete having been through all this? Replace EGR Temp sensor? And glow plug control module?

I feel like regens have not been happening for quite some time. Also seems like its running rich and mpg is down 2-3 points. The dealership work is under its two year warranty but we live 4 or 5 hours from the nearest dealership.

hsindogg 01-31-2018 10:53 PM

Have you ever replaced the mass air sensor? That could be causing the reduced power message.

You can get reimbursed for the Active tank and Nox sensors, those are covered under 10 years/120K warranties.

Replace the glow plug controller before doing the plugs. $3300 is a lot for the DPF, I was quoted $1700 by a dealership in MD.

You might consider making your own post, and hopefully the big guns will chime in.

AU Pete 02-01-2018 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COdieselx5 (Post 12184361)
What can you guys recommend for me here, esp. Pete having been through all this? Replace EGR Temp sensor? And glow plug control module?

I'd be deferring to the more knowledgeable members of the forum here - I'm not sure about a lot of those fault codes. I'm not even sure my pre lci 2007 Australian X5 30d has a DEF tank...

What I would ask is do you have the Carly App with an OBD adapter to read codes yourself and monitor anything?

I didn't see any mentions of thermostats (not sure if you have 1 or 2) being replaced. Your slightly poor mileage suggests a stuck open / failed thermostat - so the car is always in "warm up" mode and using more fuel. If they stick open, they don't throw a fault code and apparently mechanics miss it all the time. That'll kick off all sorts of problems with not regenerating.

It sounds like you've got more problems than just the thermostat but if you can help fix that problem it might be something the mechanics are missing.

If you don't have the Carly App you can access the hidden menu and your coolant temp - see the below video. If you coolant temp stays down around 70-80 degrees celsius thats a sure sign your thermostat is faulty. it should be up around 90 and steady during stop/start and highway driving. Here's the thread where we found out mine was faulty: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=910407 and heres the video to access the hidden menu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bslttVEbuWU

dzlbimmer 04-02-2018 08:26 PM

Pete, did you ever try changing your oxygen sensor independently?

Other thread relevant info:
(Disclaimer: US 10 X5d Android current gen adapter.)
Easy way to monitor regens in Carly, monitor these three parameters:
Regeneration Requested - 0 not active 6 requested 4 active
Soot mass - monitor this (and your average mileage) so you know when to watch the Regeneration Requested paramteter
Temperature before particulate filter - (watch this as an EGT gauge in general, but also interesting to watch the temps soar during regen)

AU Pete 04-02-2018 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzlbimmer (Post 12441200)
Pete, did you ever try changing your oxygen sensor independently?

No, trying to think back through the whole saga, but I don't think I ever had any error codes directly referring to the oxygen sensor, so i don't think it was touched. (Car is still running fine btw - touch wood)

Pete

GoNz0 05-19-2018 08:14 AM

I gave in and reset the DPF values today, the back pressure is very low (6mb idle, 80 at 4k) and even after a 200 mile round trip where it did a regen part way it tried to do another yesterday after 120 miles, ash mass is calculated at 40g so plenty of life left in it. I hope this calms the constant regens.

RPsX5d 05-19-2018 07:22 PM

GoNz0 - sharing some of my info that might be of use to you.

Are you monitoring these parameters using a Carly or some other method?

DPF backpressure units on my Carly app are in hpa (hectopascal) . . . mine hovers around 10 hpa - drops a little while idling and jumps a bit under load, proportional to load/acceleration.

You indicate 6mb . . . 6 millibars? If yes, then it is equal to 6 hpa . . . lower than what I am reading.

Although I don't think I have hit 4K rpm with Carly running, even under normal hard acceleration (like on the freeway on-ramp, etc), I don't think I have ever seen 80 hpa. I will keep an eye on it to confirm.

My ash mass is just under 54 grams.

My vehicle - E70/35d, 2011MY, June 2010 build, ~134,000 miles.

Here are my regen intervals I posted to a different thread . . . from what I have read - 300-mile interval for active regen (DPF temp hits 620įC) and in between several passive ones (~350įC). Your 120-mile interval seems a bit too frequent. My drive pattern is about 50/50 city/hwy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNz0 (Post 12530584)
I gave in and reset the DPF values today, the back pressure is very low (6mb idle, 80 at 4k) and even after a 200 mile round trip where it did a regen part way it tried to do another yesterday after 120 miles, ash mass is calculated at 40g so plenty of life left in it. I hope this calms the constant regens.


GoNz0 05-20-2018 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPsX5d (Post 12531274)
GoNz0 - sharing some of my info that might be of use to you.

Are you monitoring these parameters using a Carly or some other method?

DPF backpressure units on my Carly app are in hpa (hectopascal) . . . mine hovers around 10 hpa - drops a little while idling and jumps a bit under load, proportional to load/acceleration.

You indicate 6mb . . . 6 millibars? If yes, then it is equal to 6 hpa . . . lower than what I am reading.

Although I don't think I have hit 4K rpm with Carly running, even under normal hard acceleration (like on the freeway on-ramp, etc), I don't think I have ever seen 80 hpa. I will keep an eye on it to confirm.

My ash mass is just under 54 grams.

My vehicle - E70/35d, 2011MY, June 2010 build, ~134,000 miles.

Here are my regen intervals I posted to a different thread . . . from what I have read - 300-mile interval for active regen (DPF temp hits 620įC) and in between several passive ones (~350įC). Your 120-mile interval seems a bit too frequent. My drive pattern is about 50/50 city/hwy.

I use ISTA/D to check the cars stats when needed, I never went for Carly as it does seems a bit half put together at times with unknown codes etc.

Basically I got the car last November with a full service history meaning it was main dealer half arsed repairs but still better than risking one tampered with by god knows who.
It came with knackered stats and gearbox cooler that had no doubt caused poor regens but fortunately the car did some UK-Europe trips so it would have had passive regens.

Since owning I have done the glow plugs and controller as they were all shot, had both turbo's refurbed at a local company with a national reputation, replaced both stats and after getting through 7 gearbox oil coolers realising the thermostats they now use are cheap chinese crap that fail the 1st time they open (BMW replaced 3 and refunded me as they also realise the parts won't work but also don't give a toss about pointing this out to Behr) so I fitted an inline stat just after to fix the issue (it works for Audi in the R8 so it's good enough for my car ;) )
Injector readings all check out near perfect, full service done.

So in theory the car is in good running condition.

I do not do many miles, at the moment it is a Sunday car as I have a Mini to use for the short trips, all it has really done it test drives on the motorway and a few trips to fetch the wife from work so a mixed bag.

It keeps trying to regen and takes the piss with the frequency, we finally had the chance to go to the coast in it earlier this month so a 90 mile trip should have done it the world of good, it did a regen as we got to the destination but didn't do another on the way back so I did expect it was going to behave. Soon after it got to temp the next time I used it the bloody thing started to regen again but I Was doing a 6 mile trip in heavy friday night work traffic, this threw a hidden 4667 regenerations too frequent code, it shouldn't be trying to regen after a 90 open road run followed by 20 or so miles around town, ash mass is 40g and when I checked with the DPF automated test idle was 6mb out of a permissible 65 at idle, it then holds revs at 2k and that was about 35 out of a max 120? (I think) and the next test you floor the throttle to cut off revs, 4k in my 535d and that was 80 out of 240.

As you can see it is in good condition against the fail levels ISTA shows hence me telling it I now have a new DPF to see if that forces it to behave.

If I had a faulty pressure sensor it should have thrown the max value exceeded warning of 1000mb as that triggers a faulty sensor. The 535d only has one sensor, it doesn't read pre and post DPF values like other models.

It was also noted when I had the turbos off that theDPF was very clean before it hit the filter so I doubt it is clogging fast due to excessive soot, the car also is stock, no remap, even the EGR valve area is very clean, just a dusting of soot unlike most that are gummed up with oil and soot.

Swirl flaps removed when I got the car and they were all functional and reasonably clean.

Worse idle reading I have seen is still under 20mb idle, forcing a regen and doing a motorway drive at 70mph lats under 10 minutes and yields a post regen sub 10mb each time.

Anyway, I have a holiday next week, the car gets it's 1st real outing, a 4am drive down south of 300 miles so it will be interesting to see the regen status and if resetting the DPF to new status puts the regens back in check with this so called lifetime DFT fitted to the LCI.

mitocross 11-17-2018 02:27 PM

Hello everyone,
I am back after quite some time, but I have been observing the behavior of my car all those months.
Recently I had an opportunity to buy a remanufactured original intake with new reinforced swirl flaps for reasonable price. I had my swirl flaps removed approx. two and half years ago. Before that I had problem with my thermostats, clogged DPF and subsequent cleaning gone wrong, then new DPF, est.. The frequency of DPF regenerations was growing ever since, even with new oem DPF installed.
Long story short, with swirl flaps back in, my tragic 80km between regens in city (and higher consumption) had jumped straight back to 200km! I now have 235000km on odometer and think my injectors and turbos could not be in their best shape, so it might be even better after I get these checked.

I realized Swirl flaps are vital for right function of our M57 or any other engines with them. Especially cold and city driving. Not som much on highway. The combustion is completly wrong, producing much soot, in low rpms, when there are no flaps closing half of the intake tract.
I was so influenced by all these advices to remove swirl flaps because of the danger of them breaking off...

GoNz0 11-18-2018 03:07 AM

This backs up my theory on this as my car runs 100% apart from the regen kicking in every 75-100 miles since removing the swirl flaps, I was so quick to jump on the deflap bandwagon as I have nearly bought a new DPF to figure this out.

Where did you buy the remanufactured intake from as I would like to see what these revised flaps are like?

Thanks for replying with the above it is a huge help.

mitocross 11-18-2018 03:54 AM

This:
https://pmgtechnik.com/en
Or you can find them offering the intake mainfolds on eBay, they have several ads, e.g.:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANSAUGBR%C3...53.m1438.l2649
In reality the parts are made in Poland. They use original mainfolds they get back from customers, clean them and put new flaps in. There have been a few complaints about the flaps not being tight enough and oil seeping through their bearings (2 of 6 flaps for example), but they respond, and exchange when something is wrong.
I was thinking about asking them to sell me the flaps alone, but realised the guys who removed my flaps, removed the vacuum lines and control rod as well. So I bought the complete mainfold.
Mine so far so good. I will keep eye on it.


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