Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings - Page 2 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 08-30-2019, 03:13 PM
Chedley Chedley is offline
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Yep, Jurid are the original oem pads on the E39. They are very dusty, but quiet, and supposedly more durable.
I am using Jurid's on the front, and Bosh pads on the rear.

Next time, I will switch to Akebono's to try them out.
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  #27  
Old 08-30-2019, 04:01 PM
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crazy4trains crazy4trains is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgoo1 View Post
Yeah, dust is wild. Not sure what is on the rear. Havenít needed to do them since I got the car but is on the list of things to do sooner than later. New Jurid on front and theyíre as bad or worse for dust, though very quiet. And all this after washing the wheels only a few weeks ago.
IIRC Jurid front and Textar on the rear.
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  #28  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:51 AM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Question for those still interested in following my suspension rebulid journey....

How far do you think one could safely lower the rear subframe without risking damage? I would think at some point dropping the subframe too far could stretch hoses/lines or stress seals.

I ask because I think I have an idea for fabbing up a tool for the bushings. Pulling the bushings out won't require a whole lot of clearance on top, but pushing one in will. I intend to use a sleeve and cap from a front axle puller set that I have. I think the diameter will fit the subframe perfectly, but i'm estimating that I probably need at least 4" of clearance (maybe 4.5) above the subframe to fit the sleeve, cap, and enough thread in the pulling screw to get a couple big grade 8 nuts on top to jam it.

I'm sure the answer will become obvious as I go to lower it. I ask ahead of time for ideas or input on it because I have a one meter piece of M14x1.5 threaded rod that I need to cut into appropriate lengths for the "studs" that will suspend the subframe.

Given that the factory subframe bolt is 7" shoulder to tip and I estimate needing 4-5" of clearance, I'm going to cut the rod into thirds...one-foot pieces. I suppose I really only need three - not four - since at any time I'll be working on one of the bushings.

Just don't want to throw a 12" rod in there and overlook something that isn't obvious as I lower it...then find out I screwed something up by getting too aggressive on lowering the subframe.

If i can't drop is 4-5" without risking damage to something, I'll have to look for another setup on top when I do the bushing install. Could probably figure something out, but it would involve more cutting, grinding, drilled, etc on something I'd have to source. Would be way easier if I can just use the pieces I already have.
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  #29  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:20 AM
Bob Michaels Bob Michaels is offline
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You definitely must pay attention to how far you drop the SF. I remember reading that you don't want to stretch/snap the wires for the air suspension self leveling switch, but since mine has regular springs I didn't worry about it. BUT what I wasn't aware of was that there is also a level switch for the xenon headlights and I almost stretched it to breaking.

I believe there are a number of threads on the internet that walk through the process. In the Touring section of the E39 board on BF there is a thread from a guy that rents the tool and in those many pages there are lots of helpful tips.

ADD: also check this https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...light=subframe. I rented the tool from jase007, but that was 3 years ago and he may no longer have it.

Last edited by Bob Michaels; 09-07-2019 at 10:29 AM.
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  #30  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:30 AM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Michaels View Post
You definitely must pay attention to how far you drop the SF. I remember reading that you don't want to stretch/snap the wires for the air suspension self leveling switch, but since mine has regular springs I didn't worry about it. BUT what I wasn't aware of was that there is also a level switch for the xenon headlights and I almost stretched it to breaking.



I believe there are a number of threads on the internet that walk through the process. In the Touring section of the E39 board on BF there is a thread from a guy that rents the tool and in those many pages there are lots of helpful tips.


Thanks. I have read a lot of diys etc on the process. Even the ones that are very helpful arenít giving out details like how long they cut their rods or even what type of rod (I got the M14x1.5 spec from RealOEM and confirmed it by pulling one of the subframe bolts to validate the spec).

Some of the vids it appears they have the frame dropped relatively far...just not sure itís as far as I need. Guess Iíll find out tomorrow. Today Iím going about trying to make a tool bc I didnít want to pay $300+ to buy one or tie up $500+ to rent one.
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  #31  
Old 09-08-2019, 11:07 AM
jp5touring jp5touring is offline
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M5Jed on another forum rents the tool for under $100. IIRC. Used it when I did my car great service,
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2019, 07:35 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp5touring View Post
M5Jed on another forum rents the tool for under $100. IIRC. Used it when I did my car great service,

I thought I had read he wasnít anymore. Guess I was mistaken. Oh, well. Iím committed to trying to get this thing done before EOD tomorrow so I can get some new shoes without worry that my shuffle-y rear end is going to jack them up...and Iíd like to get that done on Tuesday before I leave for a long road trip...so, away I went this weekend working on a tool.

Good news is...tools seems to work quite well for pulling. Only a little squirt of penetrating fluid on top and a very short burst of heat on one side is all the extracurriculars I did here:





Bad news is...

1) I cut the square stock for the side reinforcements too short. Bushing bottomed out on the pull bar before it could be pulled far enough to release from the frame. Not sure why I was trying to get the length so precise. Could have cut it to about any length and it would have been fine. Would mean only a longer center rod. No biggie. Just irritating that Iíll have to cut a couple new pieces tomorrow. Probably needs to be longer, anyway, to help ensure I have proper clearance on the two forward bushings.



2) Iím a little afraid that pushing in new bushings is going to harder than pulling them out is shaping up to be...but Iím past the point of no return now.

Hereís a look at the components of the tool. Not pictured is the pulling rod assembly, which is a length of 5/8Ē threaded rod, three nuts, and a bearing to allow the nut under the pull block to spin more freely. Originally had intended to drill the threads out of that pull block and use a 3/4 high strength rod that I picked up from a local fastener supplier. Had to abort that idea when my hobby-level drill press got its butt kicked by that pull bar. Drilling that out wasnít happening. Had to resort to what was available from your friendly big box hardware store on a Sunday: 5/8Ē zinc.


Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-08-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:05 PM
CSMBlack-540i CSMBlack-540i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgoo1 View Post

Good news is...tools seems to work quite well for pulling. Only a little squirt of penetrating fluid on top and a very short burst of heat on one side is all the extracurriculars I did here:
Great Post! Now waiting to see the method you post when pushing the new bushing back in without tearing.

Guess as long as it's a flat edge and not tapered like the pull method it should work for pushing back in.

Keep us posted.
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  #34  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:18 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

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Originally Posted by CSMBlack-540i View Post
Great Post! Now waiting to see the method you post when pushing the new bushing back in without tearing.

Guess as long as it's a flat edge and not tapered like the pull method it should work for pushing back in.

Keep us posted.


I figured it was about time I contributed something to this place instead of just all the time asking for help! Lol!

I plan to push the bushings in probably with one of the larger plates from the same axle bearing set on the bottom and this ďcapĒ on top. Has to be a cap type of thing because the bushing protrudes a bit out of the top of the subframe. It isnít flush...at least not on my 2003 touring.





I made the cap by hacking up one of the sleeves out of the same bearing set. I donít really use it (donít even own a FWD car now) and the set is cheap, so slicing a ring out of the sleeve that just so happened to match up very nicely to the subframe bushing slot didnít bother me any. It did not appear I was going to be able to get the subframe low enough to fit the whole sleeve and cap, thus the angle grinder came out. I already took the exhaust off the two rear rubber hangers (subframe would hit exhaust and hangers, at least the rear most one, are affixed to the body) and deflated the air springs for a little more leeway and I still need more drop to have fit the uncut sleeve. I almost cut it too small. When I test fit it, the original bushingís inside sleeve is just a hair away from touching the underside of the cap.


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Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-08-2019 at 08:21 PM.
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  #35  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:55 PM
CSMBlack-540i CSMBlack-540i is offline
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Everything looks off the shelf and available at Home Depot.

What are the 2 circled parts called? The smaller one looks like you grinded one end down to make it tapered to pry out the bushing. Hence the cutout or tearing of the bushing edge in some pictures.
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  #36  
Old 09-08-2019, 09:08 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

The ďpull barĒ is the most expensive part of the deal. $50 off Amazon. It is part of tool ďOTC 522 Large Gear and Pulley PullerĒ. Iím sure I could have made something with similar function, but this is one part that needed to be super stout plus at some point time is money. I figure Iíd have at least $20 in more steel and fasteners to try to make something. Decided to just buy this when I saw it should be wide enough to span the width that I needed and that it would accept 1/2Ē bolts on the sides. To me, worth the $30 difference to not have to fab this piece.

The small ďtabsĒ to grab the subframe I just cut out of a piece of steel I bought at Tractor Supply. It is just described as ďchannelĒ on their website, but it isnít c-channel. I figured the profile of the steel would provide more strength than a flat bar. I used one of the new bushings to draw the circular profile on it then cut it out with a cut off wheel in an angle grinder. Then just kinda shaped it and cleaned it up with a die grinder. I did have to grind down and taper the ribs as they were too fat to fit in the ďslotĒ between the bushing and frame.

Should be obvious that Iím not a welder nor do I have access to equipment to even try. Had to try to think up a way to do it hack style with grinders, cutoff wheels (no surprise I donít have a plasma cutter lying around either), and mechanical fasteners.


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Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-08-2019 at 09:27 PM.
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  #37  
Old 09-08-2019, 09:17 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMBlack-540i View Post
Everything looks off the shelf and available at Home Depot.

What are the 2 circled parts called? The smaller one looks like you grinded one end down to make it tapered to pry out the bushing. Hence the cutout or tearing of the bushing edge in some pictures.


Not sure I see what you are referring to, but I donít think the tool is damaging the bushing.

There isnít anything prying on the bushing itself. The small metal tab I cut and ground is to pin against the underside of the subframe, similar to the Koch tool.

I guess it is possible that the sharp-ish point on the tab could scrape the bushing as it is coming out, but that shouldnít be too concerning for removal of a bushing not intended for reuse....and the process for installation should not require use of this piece.

Some tearing could be from my first couple attempts to remove the bushing. First time I was pulling only thru the center with a smaller plate. I think I forgot that OE bushings are fluid filled and not interconnected to the center sleeve. Saw it bulging at the bottom. Stopped before I ripped the thing up. But all that tearing would probably be on the bottom not on the side. The tearing you see on the bottom half of the bushing (the part that would be exposed to the elements even in an installed position) is just worn, old-ass bushings and is why Iím doing this job!

Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-08-2019 at 09:29 PM.
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:24 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

Giggitty-giggity...now just three more to do.




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  #39  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:38 PM
CSMBlack-540i CSMBlack-540i is offline
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Originally Posted by pwgoo1 View Post
Not sure I see what you are referring to, but I donít think the tool is damaging the bushing.
My bad. I was referring to the notch in middle of the side of the subframe bushing where the part # is imprinted. I now realize that's the way it comes. I originally thought you tapered the "c channel" to access that.

Great work. Improvisation of the tools reminds me of CN90s DIY write-ups and the DIY for the rear ball joint I used nearly a decade ago:

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...9#post13887659
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:13 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

The tool works pretty well, I do have to say. Not saying it would be my tool of choice if I had to change these things out for a living, but once I got the hang of setting it up, it worked very well. The only tricky part is making sure everything is square before you start cranking.

Here are my old bushings. I can hear the fluid sloshing around inside on the ones aft. The ones fore were cracked open and dry as a bone.



Took the car for a test drive (read one DIY that wants you to leave your car on jack stands for six hours after install...canít see how that is necessary). I can tell an overall difference but highway shuffle still feels present. Hoping at this point it is tires; either the irregular wear or one out of balance or something. Not many things left in the suspension. I think rear lower ball joints and rear upper guide link only things left. Maybe the bushings also need to settle in.


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  #41  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:35 AM
Bob Michaels Bob Michaels is offline
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Definitely consistent with what is normally found. When I did mine (at ~ 110k miles) all four were cracked and empty of oil. I originally purchased the Lemforder (OEM) version, but ended up exchanging them for the Meyle HD which are all solid, no oil, version. Before returning the Lemforder's I weighed them and compared them to the worn out ones and they all had lost almost exactly the same amount of weight (oil).

Maybe because you had two that still had oil and were presumably still provided dampening, your improvement may be a bit less dramatic than if all 4 were shot. Obviously, with two shot, the others would be gone in a matter of time.

Nice job, BTW!

Edit: I think one reason for the leaving it to sit is if you use the "special" bushing assembly stuff - it acts as a lube while wet and then something of a "glue" when dry, so I think the 6 hours is to let it set (most people don't use it).
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  #42  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:21 AM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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I had ready on some DIY that I Googled up to use Windex and not any type of grease. Grease a little too aggressive on the lubrication front and could cause issues with the bushing settling in. Made sense to me. I figured you'd want to get the things in relatively dry...as dry as you could without damaging them by having to push them in too hard. With the Windex, they went in with about as much as I'd expect for the application. Not excessive but certainly not easy to push in.
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  #43  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:59 AM
Bob Michaels Bob Michaels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgoo1 View Post
I had ready on some DIY that I Googled up to use Windex and not any type of grease. Grease a little too aggressive on the lubrication front and could cause issues with the bushing settling in. Made sense to me. I figured you'd want to get the things in relatively dry...as dry as you could without damaging them by having to push them in too hard. With the Windex, they went in with about as much as I'd expect for the application. Not excessive but certainly not easy to push in.
I recall that some guys used dish soap & water but still some of them had problems with the bushings backing out. I'd think any grease would be a no-no.

It will be interesting to see how the ride ends up after putting on new tires. When I did mine I did front/rear struts/shocks, bushings and tires. In the decade or so that I had owned it til then it had never driven as smooth (a relative term, as these aren't Buicks ). BTW, my set up was with Bilsteins, but I got the "touring" set which is supposed to be a bit softer and more like the original Sachs shocks.
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  #44  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:11 AM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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I was expecting miracles when I re-did all my front suspension. Can tell a difference when hitting really rough road. Thrust arms were so bad previously it gave that "ABS on" feel sometimes if hitting a rough patch and applying brakes at same time. Overall, though, not as life-changing as I was expecting.

Similar outcome on the rear so far. Incremental improvements, I guess, after each step. So far on the rear, that is only shocks and subframe bushes. If I still get the highway rumble/vibe after new tires, could it be ball joints?

I have new ball joints and integral links ready to go. Just haven't gotten around to installing them. Figure guide links are on the agenda, too. Might as well having done everything else, plus the joint ends on them look a little rough I noticed when working on the rear end last night. FWIW, front struts are Sachs (trying to save some $ vs Bilsteins..there was a considerable different in price, IMO, and Sachs is OEM, so figured why not); rears are B6 Bilsteins (not as many options for rear to begin with, but also found a good deal on eBay for NIB).

Firestone guy sold me on Firehawk AS for the tires. I'm not inspired by the reviews I've read, but willing to try something different from the DWS06's I have now. Plus, Firestone shop gives you a one-time "try it for 90 days" warranty. Was going to go with General GMAX AS-05, but they obviously won't offer the 90 days on tires that aren't their brands. Figured I can try the Firehawks and if I hate them fall back on the Generals. FWIW, I got nothing really bad to say about the DWS06's other than I think the stories of soft sidewalls are true. They're a touch "squirmy" for me in the corners.

Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-10-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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  #45  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:02 PM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

When the air springs went from being deflated every other morning to every morning, I order some new ones. Suncore $50 each. Yeah, I know, not BMW or Arnott, but Iíve been dumping money into this thing like no other. Willing to take a chance here and there. By the time I received them in the mail a couple days ago, it seemed like my rear end was slammed to the ground every time Iíd go to drive it.

New Firestone AS tires yesterday, new air springs today, and it drove like a dream (almost) for 200 highway miles today. I say almost bc I do think Iím still getting some vibrations, but at least think I figured out a potential culprit.

After bolting in the left side air spring, I put the wheel back on while it was still on the stands. After tightening the lugs, the tire still felt loose. Loose enough to see it moving and make a clanking sound. I thought maybe Iíd buggered up a lug or didnít have the wheel properly seated. Eventually realized it was one of the upper guide link ball joints. Itís janky enough that Iím surprised the car drives and smooth and true as it does considering.

Would eventually do them anyway since those and the integral links and lower ball joints I already possess are the the last parts needed to install to be able to say Iíve done the *entire* suspension.


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Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-11-2019 at 11:03 PM.
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  #46  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:37 AM
pwgoo1 pwgoo1 is offline
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Rear Supension Overhaul + Subframe Bushings

No sag overnight so Iím guessing at least one of the original bags were leaking. I havenít been able to measure, but also looks like front end has settled a bit from all that work. Ride height and balance front to rear seem ok to me.


Last edited by pwgoo1; 09-12-2019 at 12:23 PM.
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