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  #4051  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:11 PM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I honestly wasn't interested in going very far with a discussion regarding 20 MPH side pole impacts. It just isn't particularly important with regard to overall car safety, and is certainly not a significant determinant for me as to whether or not to buy a particular car. Overall car safety is a factor for me, but how a car performs in a specific type of accident at a specific speed is just a piece of the picture.
To me one data point of interest is Tesla's accident avoidance score, but there seems to be no such test yet.

Another perspective is that, given the tool in hand, having a more throughout understanding of the tool does not hurt, right?
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  #4052  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This is a typical response whenever a meaningful discussion is attempted to talk about Tesla.

It is unfortunate, but inquisitive minds keep munching regardless of yay/naysayers, and maybe the data will improve in the right directions as time progresses.
Hey guys,

You got 3 or 4 guys going on & on about the Tesla on a BMW website & are shocked simply shocked people are taking shots at you.

Its amazing you all have not figured there is a very low overall rate of interest in the wonders of Tesla since everything that needs to be said has already been said a 100 times if not more.

On my machine there are about 25 entries on this page a quick look indicate only 2 of them including this one are by posters other then yourselves.
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  #4053  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
On my machine there are about 25 entries on this page a quick look indicate only 2 of them including this one are by posters other then yourselves.
It is an interesting class of tool to understand with evolving data and improvement, and maybe one day a need will arise for such a tool. But your message is well received.

And if BMWNA, in 2 weeks, issues recall/extended warranty to 15 years/150000 miles for N20/N26 timing chain, then there will no need for new tool for another 7+ yrs for me.

Last edited by namelessman; 06-30-2020 at 12:40 PM.
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  #4054  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mull6 View Post
But with the haters like you out there whenever there is one itís broadcast all over the news.
Usually phrases like "haters like you" are thrown out due to fear.

So be fearless, just make best efforts to understand tools in hand, e.g. one can try not to get hit at weak spots of the car.
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  #4055  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
You got 3 or 4 guys going on & on about the Tesla on a BMW website & are shocked simply shocked people are taking shots at you.
Your participation is highly appreciated. Spirited discussions esp. on public forums usually are not for over-sensitive folks.
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  #4056  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:14 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
No, one problem since the panel problem caused the latching problem.
E4 shows the issues of complicated fragile clip design of frunk panel, and Munro's infomercial of his consultant firm.

This highlights a point that Dave2.0T made as far as learning curve is concerned. The simplified clip proposed by Munro was relatively standard in other brands for decades,.

BTW, in E3, the panel was reinstalled as flush as when removed by Munro, so it does not look like the panel blocks the latch from closing, so in my mind still 2 separate problems.
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  #4057  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
I responded to safety and consumption. Didn't move anything.

I bash Teslas in areas where Elon lies about them. I just provide the truth.
Another fester recently posted the following.

It does appear the defensive Tesla owners posted on this thread do not understand how to keep Telsa honest by being honest with the numbers themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
Engineers are indoctrinated in what's now known as "LEAN Six Sigma." L6S can be summed up as "large gains in efficiency can be achieved by summing up many small gains in efficiency." A tenet of L6S is that you need to measure something in order to improve something. That's where data, math, and spreadsheets come into the picture. If you can't put a number to something, it's probably not worth worrying about.

Every process can be improved. A lot of process improvements can be measured in money. My quest for process improvement is often mistaken as me being cheap....

... it's...improving a process.
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  #4058  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:16 AM
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Munro Model Y teardown E5:

@0:35, wow so Model 3 suspension damper pieces are held together with "bands", those look like plastic tie-down straps, right? Hmmm .....

How durable can those be? Any other car companies use plastic tie-down straps on suspension parts?

Munro observed that Model Y now has screws to hold the suspension pieces, that seem like an improvement, right?
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  #4059  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:32 AM
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This guy is returning it as well

https://twitter.com/Hectorrojaso/sta...25700433899521


Maybe all Elon cared about is the profit for Q2. Customers are just an annoying noise in the background.
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Last edited by acoste; 07-02-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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  #4060  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:41 AM
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Munro Model Y teardown E6:

Munro got excited about Model Y's rear trunk assembly being 1-piece versus Model 3's convoluted design of "hundreds of parts".

The corrugated straps are used in many other cars, like BMW engine bays, right?

So it seems corrugated straps in Model Y is an improvement, meaning Model 3 has no such corrugated straps of important wiring?!?

The rear frame of Model Y now also is one-piece aluminum, so apparently Model 3 also was not done right ....

@5:55 "engineers are cheapskates", way to go Mr. Munro!

So it looks like "improving the process" begins to take hold at Tesla starting Model Y!
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  #4061  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Munro Model Y teardown E5:

@0:35, wow so Model 3 suspension damper pieces are held together with "bands", those look like plastic tie-down straps, right? Hmmm .....

How durable can those be? Any other car companies use plastic tie-down straps on suspension parts?

Munro observed that Model Y now has screws to hold the suspension pieces, that seem like an improvement, right?
Munro didn't have a problem with the bands, and I think he knows a lot more about their suitability for that use than you or I do. I think it's interesting that you pick particular details and then try to spin them in a negative fashion while ignoring anything good that Munro may say about a Tesla.
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  #4062  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Munro Model Y teardown E6:

Munro got excited about Model Y's rear trunk assembly being 1-piece versus Model 3's convoluted design of "hundreds of parts".

The corrugated straps are used in many other cars, like BMW engine bays, right?

So it seems corrugated straps in Model Y is an improvement, meaning Model 3 has no such corrugated straps of important wiring?!?

The rear frame of Model Y now also is one-piece aluminum, so apparently Model 3 also was not done right ....

@5:55 "engineers are cheapskates", way to go Mr. Munro!

So it looks like "improving the process" begins to take hold at Tesla starting Model Y!
You just watched it but you either didn't pay very good attention or you're just being disingenuous to make a false point. The corrugated tubing, not straps, sometimes sees very limited use in other cars, but nothing like what Tesla has done with the Model Y, according to Sandy. He said, "Tesla has gone overboard. We've never seen anybody do this ever.", regarding it. So basically the Model Y is an improvement over all other cars out there. The Model 3 is more like other cars in this regard, which doesn't make them bad; it just means they're not as good as the Model Y.

Regarding the rear unibody, that was Sandy's number one complaint about the Model 3, mostly from a manufacturing cost and complexity standpoint. Basically, Tesla took a part, that in the Model 3, was made less efficiently than industry standard, and went to a much more efficient process that has effectively leapfrogged the industry.

I think that "improving the process" is something that Tesla has been doing ever since they produced the Roadster. In some regards, their processes apparently lead the auto manufacturing industry; in others, they are lagging, but it does seem like they are lagging in fewer areas as time goes on.

Last edited by GregD; 07-02-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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  #4063  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Usually phrases like "haters like you" are thrown out due to fear.

So be fearless, just make best efforts to understand tools in hand, e.g. one can try not to get hit at weak spots of the car.
Ya thatís it I have so much fear of some jealous haters of Tesla lol. Keep on hating while I enjoy driving the most fun and unique vehicle ever made.
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  #4064  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mull6 View Post
Ya thatís it I have so much fear of some jealous haters of Tesla lol. Keep on hating while I enjoy driving the most fun and unique vehicle ever made.
No worries, keep motoring and have fun.

It is just that Munro pointed out that Model 3 was not that well designed, and Model Y started to address some of the issues.

And the inquisitive minds keep munching and improve the process.
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  #4065  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
No worries, keep motoring and have fun.

It is just that Munro pointed out that Model 3 was not that well designed, and Model Y started to address some of the issues.

And the inquisitive minds keep munching and improve the process.
Munro never said that the Model 3 wasn't well designed on the whole, just that it had some significant flaws in its design from a manufacturing perspective. As a manufacturing engineer, I think Sandy could say that about many, if not most, cars. He obviously thinks that the Model Y is a significant step forward.
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  #4066  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
You just watched it but you either didn't pay very good attention or you're just being disingenuous to make a false point. The corrugated tubing, not straps, sometimes sees very limited use in other cars, but nothing like what Tesla has done with the Model Y, according to Sandy. He said, "Tesla has gone overboard. We've never seen anybody do this ever.", regarding it. So basically the Model Y is an improvement over all other cars out there. The Model 3 is more like other cars in this regard, which doesn't make them bad; it just means they're not as good as the Model Y.
My comment was "The corrugated straps are used in many other cars, like BMW engine bays, right?"

And yes my F30 engine bay has those corrugated tubes, albeit in shorter segments than what was shown in Model Y, given the wires do not need to run that far in F30's use cases.

Comments like "....or you're just being disingenuous to make a false point" are amusing, but inquisitive minds are emotionless, and usually not the ones who do not pay very good attention.
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  #4067  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Basically, Tesla took a part, that in the Model 3, was made less efficiently than industry standard, and went to a much more efficient process that has effectively leapfrogged the industry.
"Leapfrogged the industry" sounds like an ingenious attempt to oversell Tesla, or an uninformed battle cry from a Tesla cult member, but hey this is a public forum ....

My take is Tesla needs to fix a subpar Model 3 rear chassis design to stay at par with rest of auto industry.

Do check out F30(a 10-year old chassis design), and G20(further enhanced), and compare those with Model 3's chassis, particularly the rear that Munro hammered on.

And that may explain my unwillingness of acquiring Model 3 base for more than $25k(oh well, that price point never materializes, never mind ....)
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  #4068  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My comment was "The corrugated straps are used in many other cars, like BMW engine bays, right?"

And yes my F30 engine bay has those corrugated tubes, albeit in shorter segments than what was shown in Model Y, given the wires do not need to run that far in F30's use cases.

Comments like "....or you're just being disingenuous to make a false point" are amusing, but inquisitive minds are emotionless, and usually not the ones who do not pay very good attention.
You also stated, "meaning Model 3 no such corrugated straps of important wiring", which is wrong, and just you making something up out of thin air. You are obviously not "emotionless" when it comes to Tesla; you have an blatant anti-Tesla bias.

Last edited by GregD; 07-02-2020 at 12:46 PM.
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  #4069  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
"Leapfrogged the industry" sounds like an ingenious attempt to oversell Tesla, or an uninformed battle cry from a Tesla cult member, but hey this is a public forum ....

My take is Tesla needs to fix a subpar Model 3 rear chassis design to stay at par with rest of auto industry.

Do check out F30(a 10-year old chassis design), and G20(further enhanced), and compare those with Model 3's chassis, particularly the rear that Munro hammered on.

And that may explain my unwillingness of acquiring Model 3 base for more than $25k(oh well, that price point never materializes, never mind ....)
No other car manufacturer has created a process to cast the entire rear unibody support structure in only two pieces. Tesla even developed a new aluminum alloy to enable this. These casting pieces do "leapfrog the industry" for construction of this part of the vehicle; saying so is not "oversell", or an "uninformed battle cry".

P.S. $25k?
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  #4070  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
You also stated, "meaning Model 3 no such corrugated straps of important wiring", which is wrong, and obviously just you making something up out of thin air. You are obviously not "emotionless" when it comes to Tesla; you have an obvious anti-Tesla bias.
As emotionless inquisitive minds have questions, they do ask the questions, so skipping the "?" question mark is again an ingenious attempt to discredit a fellow fester, but hey, this is a public forum, right?

My question was "... meaning Model 3 has no such corrugated straps of important wiring?!?"

In a constructive discussion, and if the answer is known, the involved parties will nicely provide the answer and move on.

So is there a link of Munro's or other's tear down of Model 3 that can show how corrugated tubes are used in Model 3? There seems to be no nicely categorized 40-part utube series on Model 3 teardown.
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  #4071  
Old 07-02-2020, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
As emotionless inquisitive minds have questions, they do ask the questions, so skipping the "?" question mark is again an ingenious attempt to discredit a fellow fester, but hey, this is a public forum, right?

My question was "... meaning Model 3 has no such corrugated straps of important wiring?!?"

In a constructive discussion, and if the answer is known, the involved parties will nicely provide the answer and move on.

So is there a link of Munro's or other's tear down of Model 3 that can show how corrugated tubes are used in Model 3? There seems to be no nicely categorized 40-part utube series on Model 3 teardown.
When someone writes "?!?", that comes across as pushing a point, not asking a question.
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  #4072  
Old 07-02-2020, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
No other car manufacturer has created a process to cast the entire rear unibody support structure in only two pieces. Tesla even developed a new aluminum alloy to enable this. These casting pieces do "leapfrog the industry" for construction of this part of the vehicle; saying so is not "oversell", or an "uninformed battle cry".
There is no reference online/utube of this Model Y rear unibody being trailblazer, but no worries, let's treat it as such.

And G20 3-series production videos do not show how rear chassis is assembled, from parts diagram it appear F30/G20 has a huge rear piece as part of unibody, so maybe some unibody experts can chime in.

Oh wait, there are only 3-4 regulars here, need to get more traffic out to end of the wood!
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  #4073  
Old 07-02-2020, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
When someone writes "?!?", that comes across as pushing a point, not asking a question.
It depends on interpretation.

Hmm online search still can't find any picture/video of Model 3 corrugated tube usage for low-voltage wiring, can some inquisitive Model 3 owners(e.g. GregD) take some photos/videos?

Last edited by namelessman; 07-02-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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  #4074  
Old 07-02-2020, 02:38 PM
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This guy is returning it as well

https://twitter.com/Hectorrojaso/sta...25700433899521


Maybe all Elon cared about is the profit for Q2. Customers are just an annoying noise in the background.
Wow what happened to this Model Y? Any other link to show what are the circumstances leading to water collecting inside the car?

And not able to return car within 3 days does not sound right, even with state incentives paid.

Can Tesla accept the return if buyers pay back incentives to Tesla?

Last edited by namelessman; 07-02-2020 at 02:41 PM.
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  #4075  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Wow what happened to this Model Y? Any other link to show what are the circumstances leading to water collecting inside the car?

And not able to return car within 3 days does not sound right, even with state incentives paid.

Can Tesla accept the return if buyers pay back incentives to Tesla?
Wow for someone that doesnít own or like Tesla you sure spend a lot of time worrying about them. Must be a pretty boring life spending endless time looking for flaws in a Tesla.
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